Military Review

For "Pratt & Whitney" in all shoulder blades

64



The development and production of the PD-14 aircraft engine is one of the most important and discussed projects on a national scale. Increased attention to this motor specialists, officials, the media, the public and foreign experts is understandable. After many years of post-perestroika coma, the domestic industry has finally found the strength and opportunity to take on the creation of a fifth generation aircraft engine. And most importantly, PD-14 is not developed by itself, but in conjunction with the medium-haul airliner MC-21.

Great hopes are placed on this aircraft as a means of resuscitating the civilian segment of the domestic aviation industry and renewing the fleet of domestic carriers. In addition, according to the designers and officials, MC-21 has a good export potential.

Floating terms

But that's not all. When people talk about PD-14 and its prospects, they always note that it is planned to create a family of power units with a load from 9 to 18 tons, adapted to the requirements of specific customers, on the basis of the engine gas generator. The scope of application of such engines - short-and medium-haul passenger and transport aircraft. Due to the use of an already developed gas generator, the timeframes for creating new power plants should be significantly reduced.

In numerous media reports, work on the creation of the engine looks quite successful. But what is the real state of affairs? Flight tests MC-21 (to be more precise, MC-21-300) began in May. But the plane does not fly with the PD-14 engine, but with its American counterpart, more precisely, its competitor - PW1400G. With an imported engine, the aircraft will go through the entire flight test cycle, and airlines will buy it with it. And where is our PD-14?

Representatives of the press service of JSC "United Engine Corporation" reported that the JDC, based on the certification basis, is testing PD-14. Works are carried out strictly in accordance with the schedules. During 2015 – 2017, the first and second stages of engine flight tests took place at the IL-76LL flying laboratory. According to their results, the working capacity of PD-14 and its systems was confirmed in conditions close to operational ones. The third stage is scheduled to begin at the end of the year: the range of checking engine operation will be expanded.

Special ground tests are also conducted. “We are at the stage of certification engine PD-14. The results of the work performed are accepted by the certifying authority. The procedure is carried out in accordance with established deadlines both in accordance with Russian and international standards. In 2018, it is planned to receive the Rosaviation certificate, and in 2019, the EASA (European Aviation Safety Agency) is expected, ”said the JDC. However, we note that in private conversations, responsible officials confidently declare receiving a Russian certificate next year, but they are extremely cautious in assessing the possibilities to acquire a similar European document. It seems that the process can be delayed again.

In general, the current dates are markedly different from those that were announced at the initial stage of engine development. Then they hoped to complete certification in 2015, in the 2016, to begin mass production. It must be said that the terms of construction and testing of MS-21 also “swam” strongly. The liner was supposed to take off in 2013 year, but, as usual, for numerous technical and financial reasons, the process of creating the machine was delayed. Today, experts and officials claim that the Russian certificate of airworthiness MC-21-300 will receive in 2019-m, and international - in 2020 year.



At first glance, the timing of certification of the aircraft and the engine are well correlated. But there are other facts. The PD-14 engine is planned to be installed on the first or second flight samples of the MC-21-300 only in the 2019 year, respectively, tests in the sky will begin closer to the 2020. Prospects for the acquisition of serial machines with domestic engines look even more vague. This summer at MAKS, Ilyushin Finance signed a contract with Red Wings for leasing 16 MC-21-300. In this case, four aircraft will be equipped with PD-14 engines, the rest will be equipped with PW1400G engines. As for the key domestic customer, Aeroflot, according to the available information, the company will receive all its MC-21 (today we are talking about 50 machines) with Pratt & Whitney engines. However, Irkut Corporation intends to equip half of the MC-21 from the first batch with domestic engines, which should make 630 aircraft. In the future, the decision on the choice of engine will be made exclusively by the customer. Whether plans of corporation come true - time will show. So far there are 175 solid orders, and taking into account options and signed memorandums - 315.

Engine builders have the time to complete the necessary tests and prepare for mass production. And it seems there is no need to hurry. Only in November 2017, TsAGI tested MC-21-300 models in conjunction with PD-14 engines. Purges were performed in a transonic tube with simulation of takeoff and landing modes. Studies, as reported in the press release TsAGI, allowed to replenish the aerodynamic data bank of the aircraft. And in the summer of 2017, the ODK conducted qualification tests of an integrated electronic-hydromechanical automatic engine control system PD-14.

As for mass production, in its 2017 – 2025 equipment it is going to spend 21,9 a billion rubles for its preparation and modernization of equipment. We know the intention to create a dedicated assembly plant for the fifth generation engine. Line capacity will be at least 50 sets per year.

There are no special doubts that the UEC will produce the necessary number of engines. But the legitimate interest is the question: do the characteristics of PD-14 correspond to the stated parameters and can the domestic motor compete with the American one? History Our engine building industry is replete with examples when Soviet products lagged behind their foreign counterparts in a number of key parameters. Let us recall at least the M-4 and M-50 aircraft. The first was not able to reach the specified range, but was adopted for service. And what to do - we did not have another, more suitable engine then. The second bomber went to flight tests at all with the engines for which it was designed. The desired engine did not take place, and M-50 did not go into the series. The epic with the fine tuning of the engines on the MiG-29 was quite dramatic. The list can be continued. Almost all Soviet aircraft, having tactical flight characteristics comparable to those of the United States and Western Europe, were inferior to them in one thing - in the range and duration of the flight. The reason is higher fuel consumption.

So what's up with our PD-14? Can he on an equal footing with Pratt & Whitney? If we turn to official open sources, we will see that the main characteristics of PD-14 and PW1400G, such as take-off thrust, dimensions, weight, specific fuel consumption, reliability, noise level, are almost identical. Only experts know about the kind of thrust that the engines actually develop and how much fuel they burn.

Of course, PD-14 is a modern fifth generation engine. The press service of the UEC stresses that it has a proven and modern design, a compact two-shaft scheme, a direct fan drive, an optimal degree of bypass, an efficient gas generator. In addition, there is a digital ACS with full responsibility of the FADEC type (Full Authority Digital Engine Control system, an automated control system for the parameters of fuel injection, air and ignition in the engine to maintain optimal performance with minimal consumption). All this allows to achieve high reliability and manufacturability, reduce costs. The modular design together with the digital ACS and the built-in diagnostic system ensure the successful application of the concept of engine operation according to the technical condition.

Still have a chance?

In the UEC note that in the design and creation of PD-14, a large number of innovative and advanced technologies were developed and applied, which made it possible to achieve the desired characteristics. In particular, the fan is equipped with wide chord hollow titanium blades. The high-pressure compressor bliski on the first, second and fifth stages are made of titanium alloy, the disks of the sixth - eighth stages - of a new generation of nickel granule alloy. The parts of the combustion chamber are made of a heat-resistant intermetallic alloy, and it itself has low-emission combustion, nozzles with pneumatic spraying are installed, and a second-generation ceramic heat shield is used. The working and nozzle vanes of the high-pressure turbine are made of the newest single-crystal alloys, protected by a ceramic heat-shielding coating, and the disks are made of a new generation of nickel alloy. The working and nozzle blades of the first to sixth stages of the low-pressure turbine are hollow, and active clearance control is applied.

All elements and modules of the gas-air duct are developed using the methods of three-dimensional aerodynamic design. In the design of the engine nacelle composite materials occupy approximately 65 percent by weight. It is also equipped with a lattice reversing device with an electromechanical drive.

But this amount of innovation carries with it a potential danger. After all, the more innovations, the more difficult the product will be in production, it means more expensive. And besides, even small deviations from technology in the manufacture of individual parts in the amount will lead to a noticeable decrease in performance.

We should not forget that PD-14 and PW1400G were designed and produced in different conditions. In 90-s and at least in the first half of zero years, the domestic industry survived. Almost all complex production facilities stopped, many enterprises went bankrupt, qualified personnel fled in search of a better life, the intellectual potential of design bureaus and scientific research institutes plummeted, a huge number of technologies were lost, engineering specialties stopped being in demand. Some plants are reoriented to the production of any nonsense such as hardware or metal doors. Others have become shopping or business centers. It is obvious that after almost two decades of industrial degradation, creating a high-tech product capable of competing with one of the trendsetters is almost impossible task. There are not enough qualified personnel, the school is lost, there is no modern equipment. By the way, the machine tool industry has suffered, perhaps more than others. Technologically, the United States and Western Europe are almost always ahead of our country. And for the post-perestroika period, the gap has only increased. Therefore, with a high degree of probability, it can be assumed that the characteristics of PD-14 do not correspond to the declared values ​​and are inferior to PW1400G.

Of course, over time, our engine will be brought to the desired level. But competitors are not asleep. They will find ways to improve the performance of their products. Although even in such a seemingly losing situation, it is necessary to make the domestic engine. First of all, in order to revive the school, science, personnel, production, create a reserve for future developments. For PD-14 and its modifications will always be used. One of the potential consumers is the projected medium military transport aircraft under the unofficial name IL-276. As the chief designer of Il, Nikolai Talikov, noted, today, the well-proven PS-90А-76, which have the necessary characteristics to reduce technical risks, are considered to be the propulsion system. At the same time, the company is waiting for PD-14, which should reduce fuel consumption and maintenance costs of the power plant. After confirming the stated characteristics and testing in serial production, IL is ready to replace PS-90А-76.
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https://vpk-news.ru/articles/40249
64 comments
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  1. Buffet
    Buffet 8 December 2017 15: 10 New
    +2
    It is not yet known how long other engines of this family will develop in time. But still in the future PD -35.
    1. iouris
      iouris 10 December 2017 11: 21 New
      0
      The engine appears, appears ... Sorry, a small technical problem - it is out of date.
  2. NEXUS
    NEXUS 8 December 2017 15: 11 New
    10
    Of course, PD-14 is a fifth-generation modern engine.

    We got with these generations, zhurnalyugi ... just a NEW ENGINE to write is not fate?
    Already on the basis of PD-14, PD-15, PD-18 are being developed ... there are plans to create even PD-35.
    1. svp67
      svp67 8 December 2017 15: 15 New
      +2
      Quote: NEXUS
      We got with these generations, zhurnalyugi ... just a NEW ENGINE to write is not fate?

      New, may be a repetition of the old. And here it is clearly understood, not just new, but also modern ...
    2. seti
      seti 8 December 2017 15: 45 New
      +4
      They just need to spit in every barrel. After all, it is clear even to a non-specialist that it is not enough to design a little, to embody a new engine in metal. It is necessary to thoroughly examine it and check for compliance with the declared characteristics, it is possible to change something or to work. All this is not very fast but a very lengthy process. It is necessary that the engine has worked out the required number of hours in normal mode and much much more.
      Well, here, like in that movie, either women or vodka. And better both that and another and at once.
      1. GAF
        GAF 8 December 2017 20: 01 New
        +4
        Quote: seti
        They just need to spit in every barrel

        That's for sure. So the author writes: "Almost all Soviet aircraft, having flight tactical characteristics comparable to those of the USA and Western Europe, were inferior to them in one - in range and duration of flight. The reason is higher fuel consumption."
        It seems that according to the TTD our planes in the combat radius were not inferior to foreign ones. As for the fuel, it was a lot. I recall an old episode. On the way from the airport for lunch, we took a driver who was standing on the side of the tanker with him. Upon returning from dinner, we calmly drove past a stream of kerosene in a ditch. What the driver was doing there, in a hurry not to be late for lunch, no one was interested. Apparently due to the familiar pattern, when the TU-Shka makes an extra circle above the airfield to drain the "excess" kerosene before landing.
        1. Anyone
          Anyone 11 December 2017 16: 08 New
          +1
          "Almost all Soviet aircraft, having flight tactical characteristics comparable to those of the USA and Western Europe, were inferior to them in one - in range and duration of flight. The reason is higher fuel consumption"

          Yes, this is nonsense in the article is written ... Let's compare the same type aircraft of the GA USSR and GA USA / Europe, created at the same time. There will be no lag in our aircraft in "range and duration of flight." Let the author of the note compare the B727-200 with our counterpart Tu-154M. And he will see who loses in flight range, and who wins. That is why the Tu-154M is still flying, but the Boeing-727 is not. Or B757-200 and Tu-204-300. The first has a fuel consumption of 3,3 t / h, and the second - 3,25 t / h. And where is the "higher fuel consumption"? Not if we compare the operational characteristics of the Soviet Tu-104 fifty years ago and the modern Airbus A320, then of course it will not be in favor of the Tu-104))
          1. cast iron
            cast iron 11 December 2017 23: 14 New
            +1
            And here you are, take and compare the B-747 (1969) with the IL-62 (1967). Patriotism is a good thing. But it cannot be denied that civilian engines in the United States were better in economic terms.
            1. Anyone
              Anyone 11 December 2017 23: 37 New
              +1
              What does patriotism have to do with it? I compared the same type of "contemporaries", and you offer me to compare the wide fuselage with the narrow and the three engines in the tail with four under the wings. What is the point of such a comparison? Jumbo will fit in 25 grams per passenger-kilometer, and IL-62 and 40 grams will not fit. But the point is not in the engines, but in the fact that the IL-62 has 132 passengers in a three-class lineup, that is 12/18/102 (how many in a single-class one are too lazy to look, and after 1992, we haven’t “cattle trucks” in Aeroflot was), and the Boeing 747-200 - as many as 370 seats in the three-class version. Hence the difference in specific consumption, which is calculated as a gram per person per unit of flight time. And the engines have nothing to do with it (in this example).
              1. cast iron
                cast iron 12 December 2017 02: 32 New
                +2
                I gave you an example of the fact that the Americans managed to make a huge airbus in the late 60s, and the Soviet designers did not. And the reason for this is the lack of the necessary engines. The USSR was a great aviation power. In some ways, our planes were better, in something worse. This is normal. It is impossible in all areas and always to be the best.
                1. Anyone
                  Anyone 12 December 2017 11: 22 New
                  +1
                  Are you sure that we needed an airbus in the late 50s? (I was not mistaken, write "in the late 50s," because the cycle "order-development-creation-commissioning" usually takes about 10 years). That is, in order for us to have an SchF liner in the late 60s, we really should have realized the need for it in the mid-50s. And I’ll tell you for sure that for the first time we spoke seriously about the need for an airplane with 300 seats in our year 1969-1970. In general, one must understand that the USSR air fleet was determined by the concept of air transportation, which consisted in aeroification of the country. In other words, this implied the absence of hubs and the availability of regional and local aviation flights to each hole. Hubs in the USSR existed only for international traffic. An example is SVO in Moscow. At the same time, a high level of regularity was achieved in the USSR in the main directions within the country, which we only dream about today. I don’t remember exactly, but from Moscow and Leningrad to some Khabarovsk flights 7-8 a day were exactly carried out. And maybe more. In this structure of air transportation, a wide fuselage was needed in the USSR only in seasonal destinations such as Sochi and other resorts in the future. For these purposes, and built the IL-86. And the need to replace the IL-62 with the new IL-96 arose another 10 years later - in general, in the late 70s. It is simply necessary to take into account the fact that air transportation in the USSR was built for people, and not for profit. Profitability was never the main task of Aeroflot in the USSR. A ticket from Moscow to Adler in the late 80s cost ~ 39 rubles. Therefore, the route network, the concept of air transportation and subsidized tariffs determined the USSR fleet. And to compare it with the American one, due to purely commercial requests of carriers, is at least not too correct.
                  1. cast iron
                    cast iron 12 December 2017 16: 05 New
                    +1
                    You give tales about unprofitability in the USSR do not tell. Big aviation provided small. Economic efficiency in the USSR was considered and calculated no less than in the USA, simply in the conditions of the economic realities of the USSR. In the USSR, whole economic institutes worked on economic efficiency, including in the design bureau and in factories and in the Ministry of Transport. A ticket of 39 rubles is 1/3 of the salary of 120 rubles. Pretty average sn in the USSR. It’s the same as today a ticket at 10 rubles from a salary of 000 rubles.
                    Do you really think that I will believe that passenger traffic to the Far East did not require a large airbus in the early 70s? On the contrary, it was much more efficient to transport 300-400 people on one side to Vladik than to drive as many as two IL-62 in the same direction. But the facts show that even the IL-86 was already losing to the American B-747 at the exit. And it is NORMAL. Once again, this is NORMAL when the USSR was somewhat behind the West and the USA. They also lagged behind us in something.
                    1. Anyone
                      Anyone 12 December 2017 16: 34 New
                      +1
                      Firstly, you tell tales, just you. And about the average salary in the USSR of 120 rubles at the end of the 80s, you will be broadcasting to other people in a different place. Secondly, there was a profit in the industry, and it was shown everywhere. See the release of a statistical guide and you will see absolutely drop dead profitability of air transportation in the USSR. 30 percent for sure. And in the USA - 5-6%. But the secret to this profitability is that price and cost could have no economic connection at all. You are aware that a ton of aviation kerosene cost the state 150 rubles at least, and was delivered to Min. civil aviation fuel for 80 rubles. And so in almost everything. And the difference to the manufacturer was covered from the state budget. From there, this manufacturer was paid its profitability (and what about the manufacturer of aviation fuel should be profitable!).
                      In short, to end this debate, I will say that this topic is not abstract for me, since I worked at one airline for 16 years (from 1995 to 2011). 10 years flight engineer flew on the IL-86 and 6 years as an instructor at the cabin crew.
                      1. Anyone
                        Anyone 12 December 2017 19: 05 New
                        0
                        PS I’ll add regarding your postulate that it is better to drive 1 BF-plane than 2 UV-planes. This is only at first glance. It is necessary to consider each specific direction of the route grid of a particular airline. It is good when the passenger flow is constant. But the current rarity. And in the USSR there was a pronounced vacation season - summer. That is, there are peak seasons, but there are dead. And in Aeroflot every year (in the 90s and the “nulls”) the IL-86 fleet almost got into a joke for the winter. For driving a 346-seater car with a load of 100 seats is unprofitable. And on the route in winter they put Tu-154. You may ask, why it is impossible to reduce the frequency of flights flying on the IL-86 more than once a day, but a couple of times a week? But you can’t! For the frequency of flights (in conditions of modern competition, of course) is an equally important factor for passengers. In FIG, they wait two days for a flight of airline A, if they can fly off today with airline B. Reduce the frequency - you will be left without packages. AFL did this: he did not optimize the park for the route grid, but optimized the grid for the park. And that was probably right ... the Boeing 747 is a good plane (starting from the 200th). But we do not need it in FIG. This is very simple to prove: our airlines did not operate it. In Russia (excluding the Far East), the narrowest-bodied Watermelon has the best economic indicators 319/320/321. Proof of this is the route grid, Aeroflot's schedule and park. But Transaero, flying, including, on the MD11 and Boeing 747 ordered to live long. And as you know, the criterion of truth is practice))
                      2. cast iron
                        cast iron 13 December 2017 02: 55 New
                        0
                        Firstly, regarding s.p. in USSR. In 1981, my father entered the post of engineer after training at a university and z.p. he had 90 rubles. Further, gaining experience, experience and gaining new positions, by the end of 1989 he received 160 rubles. Skilled workers could earn 250-300 rubles each. Depending on the scope of activity, etc. But the average z.p. in the Union it is considered to be 120-150 rubles, because most earned just that.
                        Secondly, how do you know the cost of kerosene in the USSR if you worked under the capitalism of the 90s?
                        Thirdly, it’s strange to somehow consider the experience of the 90s with a bunch of airlines with the experience of the USSR, in which the company was one, which means it could easily change the frequency of flights to Vladik, adjusting it for an airplane. There are no competitors anyway, and there are plenty of examples in any transport (road, rail and sea) when flights on routes go 2-3 times a week. And nothing - everything is fine. Passengers just plan a trip ahead of time, 2 days do not solve anything global. However, I am more than sure that the passenger flow will be able to provide at least 1 flight per day, full of 3/4.
                        Thirdly, you consider your experience of the 90s, when Ilya stood idle in the far distant due to the season. But at the same time you do not take into account at all that Aeroflot then worked in conditions of competition and the presence of a bunch of AKs that provided an alternative. In the USSR, everything was much simpler - one State AK served the whole country and the planes did not stop there.
                        Fourth, you didn’t take into account at all that the passenger flow and the number of flights to the USSR were more than in the 90s, if not at times, then significantly. Because in the 90s and in the early 00s there was no one to fly in Russia - there was a poor country.

                        And we really don't need ShF planes. The country is systematically destroying transport links by air, rivers and roads. Under these conditions, fewer people will fly long distances in their own country. Unlike the United States, where the B-747 is well sought after by domestic airlines. There, people can afford to fly from the West Coast to the East for reasonable money relative to salaries.
    3. Berber
      Berber 8 December 2017 15: 59 New
      +4
      There was an article about a closed demonstration of PD14 and PD35. So no longer plans.
  3. Krabik
    Krabik 8 December 2017 16: 11 New
    +3
    Wang.

    When the domestic engine is knocked on and they are scattered about it. to companies, if they can, then Patt Ent Whitney will already make even more modern engines.

    And no one in their right mind will install domestic motors from private traders.
    1. d ^ Amir
      d ^ Amir 8 December 2017 16: 59 New
      10
      And no one in their right mind will install domestic motors from private traders

      they will rush into a jump ... at maximum speed .... losing sneakers ... the reason is simple ... the mental inadequacy of the west ... who can predict where they will be brought with sanctions ??? Yes, they themselves do not know .... or they know, but then this is a carefully developed strategy for preparing for the robbery of the next Indians (i.e. us) .... and so that they will not take on the hegemon-exclusive democrats and will take these engines .... private trader knows how to count money ....
      1. Krabik
        Krabik 8 December 2017 17: 22 New
        +4
        Of course you are right, I did not take into account this problem with sanctions;)
    2. Vlad.by
      Vlad.by 9 December 2017 00: 11 New
      +3
      And why do not like domestic engines?
      AL-41 is bad? Or is the Su-35 too short?
      Bring the line, do not hesitate. And it will be no worse than P @ B.
  4. HEATHER
    HEATHER 8 December 2017 16: 31 New
    +3
    If they do, good.
  5. antivirus
    antivirus 8 December 2017 17: 01 New
    +3
    Only the experts know what kind of thrust the engines actually develop and how much fuel is burned.
    KNOW THE SPECIALS OF THE MINKULT --- first propaganda of their achievement, then faith in "will not fall", further --- come on and give us such a "red-aeroflot".
    Children of Aeroflot top managers will ask dad- "are you like that. Like in the movies, did you put it on your planes?"
  6. senima56
    senima56 8 December 2017 17: 49 New
    +5
    Neither end nor edge can be seen from PD-14 (SU-57, AK-12, AK-15, Armata, Boomerang, Kurganets, etc. etc.)! And what was boasting ahead of time? It would be better to keep quiet, for the time being! And then ..... It's a shame, gentlemen.
    1. bulvas
      bulvas 8 December 2017 19: 19 New
      +5
      Quote: senima56
      Neither end nor edge can be seen from PD-14 (SU-57, AK-12, AK-15, Armata, Boomerang, Kurganets, etc. etc.)! And what was boasting ahead of time? It would be better to keep quiet, for the time being! And then ..... It's a shame, gentlemen.


      If you did not boast, it would be a shame that they do nothing
  7. turbris
    turbris 8 December 2017 18: 15 New
    +6
    Anyway, there’s nowhere to go and without new engines you can lose the status of an aviation power. But whether they will be better or worse is not so important, the main thing is that they can be issued without looking back at the sanctions of the West. It is very difficult to create a fundamentally new engine now - this is beyond the power of anyone, therefore, the characteristics of modern engines are fundamentally the same, only in some respects, the main thing is to reduce the technical gap from Pratt & Whitney in technology.
    1. Town Hall
      Town Hall 8 December 2017 18: 23 New
      +2
      Quote: turbris
      Anyway, there’s nowhere to go and without new engines you can lose the status of an aviation power. And whether they will be better or worse, is not so important, the main thing is that they can be issued without looking back at the sanctions of the West




      Seriously, is it not so important? ... For the airlines for which these engines are actually manufactured, does it matter if they are worse or better? ... nobody will stupidly buy them if they turn out to be worse. Who needs this hemorrhoids if the market is full of engines with the best characteristics ?

      If these engines turn out to be at least 10% worse than their competitors .. then they will not be bought 10% less ... they will NOT be bought at all
      1. Vlad.by
        Vlad.by 9 December 2017 00: 14 New
        +2
        If airlines cut off deliveries of spare parts and repair of engines, they would not fly.
        Everything is not so clear!
      2. turbris
        turbris 9 December 2017 11: 03 New
        0
        There will be engines commensurate in quality and cheaper than imported ones - they will take, they will not go anywhere. And in our country, they will be in demand, who ever told you that the PD-14 is worse than its Western counterparts? The trials have not ended yet, but the "patriots" have already fussed over, do they work for Pratt & Whitney?
  8. 16112014nk
    16112014nk 8 December 2017 18: 54 New
    +6
    That's only in the “East” Rogozin and Co. flew to the “Golfstream” for 9 million from the budget, and not a regular flight at their own expense.
    1. turbris
      turbris 9 December 2017 11: 06 New
      +2
      And how do you know at whose expense? And how does your information relate to the topic of discussion? The cockerel crowed and completed the task?
  9. SCHWERIN
    SCHWERIN 8 December 2017 19: 25 New
    +4
    I read 2 years ago about this engine in "Arguments of the Week." Officials slowed everything down. I understand that people (Russians) worked for a penny creating this engine! Those. on bare enthusiasm. They did it, it remains only to hang it on the wing of a flying laboratory and experience it in a real environment. So they didn’t give it, they slowed down. They wrote to all authorities ....
    Maybe I'm wrong about the engine model. But who knows, can correct me. And so we live, today!
    1. B-15
      B-15 8 December 2017 22: 44 New
      +4
      No need to sketch ....
      PD-14 was thoroughly tested near Moscow. There were difficulties even with simple modes. But the road will be overpowered by the walking one.
      And 2 years ago, the PD-14 was still completely raw and could not be tested fully assembled.
  10. Nikolay293
    Nikolay293 8 December 2017 20: 04 New
    +1
    Two-thirds of the "new products" of this engine are used on marine engines ДГ90, ДН80, ДУ80 for twenty years already!
    1. turbris
      turbris 9 December 2017 11: 09 New
      +1
      Any engine uses the same parts and proven technology, what is this news?
  11. MrK
    MrK 8 December 2017 21: 05 New
    +2
    Quote: svp67
    And here it is clearly understood, not just new, but also modern ...


    Yeah, developed in 90's, the NK-93 engine, where they invested a lot of money, has already been saved .... Watch the movie on YouTube: "The tragedy of NK-93. How the world's most advanced motor was killed." But then the chatter goes on for 10 years and invested money in this PD - 50 billion.
    1. allegro
      allegro 8 December 2017 22: 08 New
      +2
      this is definitely the best engine NK-93, which was never allowed to take off the enemies of our Fatherland
    2. Vadim237
      Vadim237 9 December 2017 11: 35 New
      +1
      With its dimensions, it is suitable only for a huge aircraft - you can’t put this engine on everything that we have, but the project was closed for this.
      1. MrK
        MrK 9 December 2017 14: 50 New
        +3
        Quote: Vadim237
        With its dimensions, it is suitable only for a huge aircraft - you can’t put this engine on everything that we have, but the project was closed for this.


        1. He is heavy. But it turned out the weight of PD-14 as in NK-93. With this traction is almost 20 tons. And fuel consumption, like PD-14.
        The designers said: we’ll finish the tests, we will reduce the weight by almost a ton minimum, due to new materials and technologies. Not allowed.
        2. It is bulky. It turned out that the screws are longer by 30 cm than the PD air intake, as in the Boeing 737 engine, i.e. by 15 cm to the side ..
        3. There are no aircraft on which to put it.
        Of course not. Because NK-93 was designed for a whole line of existing and promising long-haul passenger airliners of medium and long range - Tu-204, Tu-214, Il-96-400, military transport aircraft - IL-486, Tu-330. Where is the mass production of these aircraft? All Aeroflot Boeing and Airbus.
        4. The development of PD-14 required 80 billion rubles. Then they lowered it a little. To 50 billion. And here everything becomes clear, like God's day. 93 billion was required for the refinement of NK-1,5. And for the development of a new PD-14, well, even after the reduction of 50 billion.
        Robots. Imagine what opportunities for kickbacks and cuts. I think that the whole reason is this. If even the order of the Head of Government-then Putin ... he. ri. whether.
        1. Vadim237
          Vadim237 9 December 2017 21: 20 New
          +1
          The weight of the PD is 14 2800 kilograms, and that of the Tax Code is 93 3500 kilograms. The first has a resource of 200000 hours, the second has 15000.
          1. cast iron
            cast iron 11 December 2017 23: 34 New
            +1
            Yeah, they told you about the real resource))))))) It is not surprising that a motor with a thrust of 20 tons is 20% heavier than a motor with a thrust of 14-16 tons.
    3. opus
      opus 9 December 2017 23: 42 New
      +2
      Quote: mrark
      “The tragedy of NK-93. How the world's most advanced engine was killed”.

      all the same, NK-93 is a turbofan.

      the diameter of the NK-93 fan (2900 cm) is substantially greater than that of both "competitors" (1900 for PD-14 and 2010 for PW1000G)

      and specific consumption (in test) 0,55-0,56
      It is rather a competitor (if finalized) CRISP

      Maybe they will revive (Kudrin is not there now, and that is fine)
  12. gridasov
    gridasov 8 December 2017 21: 40 New
    +2
    Well, it's just a "kingdom of crooked mirrors." Any specialist understands that the efficiency of an aircraft engine directly depends on the temperature in the combustion chamber, which means they strive to increase it, and the engine design does not at all contribute to such processes with increasing scale. And while all say that the engines are becoming quieter and more economical. At least once they would say on what grounds, they are seeking these parameters. With such surrealism, Russia will never become a leader and an independent state. Will always catch up with others.
    1. B-15
      B-15 8 December 2017 22: 56 New
      +6
      Russian technologies for aircraft engines are somewhere behind, but somewhere ahead of world leaders.
      For example, we finally caught up with our first friends to create a single rotor.
      or, until now, first friends are catching up with our turboprop gearboxes. As at one of the MAKSs like P&W or RR (I don’t remember), a gearbox was shown in the section in order to reduce the speed of rotation of the secondary circuit. Paphos was terrified. But not a single elderly expert-rosian was interested in this new product.
      Let's be objective.
      Our engine building has dozens of lost years. But the theoretical groundwork is no lower than any foreign company.
      And VIAM created such technologies that friends never dreamed of. Or vice versa, only dream. :-)
      1. gridasov
        gridasov 9 December 2017 00: 04 New
        +2
        You are absolutely right, but !!! All of these new products and technologies are, as it were carefully put, very important, but of a secondary order. Technologies and achievements of the twenty-first century are trying to hang on the basic physical principles laid down in the nineteenth century. For the sake of objectivity, scientists and engineers put in intellectual and physical potential and achieve significant results. But the fundamental basis of the engine remains old and it cannot be said that their work is in vain. The basic principles of operation of an aircraft engine are completely illogical and cannot be further developed, and all attempts to make it more perfect are in vain. At a minimum, people need to understand. that "flying saucers" fly and fly much more, which means there is potential for research and development. And we are talking about such technologies. Therefore, it is not necessary to equal the Americans, but to completely different levels. When will there be at least one smart one who will do the right thing. ?
        1. turbris
          turbris 9 December 2017 11: 14 New
          0
          When did you invent the wheel and bike? And until now, we are using these developments, as well as with engines - a fundamentally new one, probably there will be when mankind has mastered gravity and with its help will move in space.
          1. gridasov
            gridasov 9 December 2017 11: 42 New
            0
            Yes, but anti-gravity forces are a consequence of the interaction of magnetic force flows. So you just need to build certain processes according to the algorithms of their sequence. that can give a result. And such algorithms have long been known. Answers and decisions were needed on how to get already high-capacity energy interactions. .Te the same as with ion engines. In laboratory samples, the effect is obvious, but the working engine will not work. After all, there is no source of sufficient energy capacity. This is the novelty of the discovery of the WHEEL in a new way, which will allow to scale the effects. Therefore, we are talking about the possibility of extracting energy in a closed reverse cycle. That is, the rotation of the "wheel" requires energy, but even the rotating "wheel" is capable of generating energy. Anti-gravity forces are already elementary. Remember Charles disks - this is the fundamental principle of creating some local space of such an ultrahigh energy density that can withstand gravitational magnetic fluxes. It was necessary to understand all the laws governing the organization of such processes.
            1. KaPToC
              KaPToC 10 December 2017 20: 30 New
              0
              Quote: gridasov
              Yes, but anti-gravity forces are a consequence of the interaction of magnetic force flows.

              So gravity can be measured by a magnetometer? Or is it still a kilogram?
              1. gridasov
                gridasov 10 December 2017 22: 28 New
                +1
                No ! Both the magnetometer and the kilogram meter can distinguish only particular and individual parameters of the gravitational “field”. Therefore, it is necessary first of all to understand the principles which can result in all those physical effects that we associate with the concept of gravity. In other words, planet Earth, as we call it, is the generator of this gravitational complex of forces. And there are a lot of such signs.
                1. KaPToC
                  KaPToC 10 December 2017 23: 05 New
                  +1
                  Quote: gridasov
                  In other words, planet Earth, as we call it, is the generator of this gravitational complex of forces.

                  gravitational meter?
  13. allegro
    allegro 8 December 2017 22: 05 New
    +5
    the pro-Western lobby will ruin this engine as well, that's why we are stomping on the spot because of such lobbyists, and the state is to blame, a quota should be set for the purchase of our engines and planes, for example, 100 of our planes and 20 are imported but three times as expensive this will be right, this will be the protection of our aircraft industry
    1. gridasov
      gridasov 8 December 2017 23: 04 New
      +2
      Will they ruin? Yes, they do not allow those developers to develop. who are able to solve generally non-standard and new tasks. All PD engines, like all other engines, are the whole past and have the limit of their improvement. Investing in a deliberately losing project. Elementary physics and a simple justification allow us to talk about fundamentally new and much more efficient physical processes occurring in the engine and about the devices themselves. They will not need to be advertised at all, they will be bought for any means, but nobody will understand the process technology. Why?. Because everything is on a fundamentally new theoretical basis. That's somewhere simple.
      1. turbris
        turbris 9 December 2017 11: 18 New
        +1
        If it were possible to keep secret the new theoretical foundations and technologies, then the world still traveled by steam. Take a closer look at China, as he successfully assimilates all these technologies.
        1. gridasov
          gridasov 10 December 2017 18: 13 New
          0
          China is mastering the technologies created in Russia, the USA and other countries. And they are doing it at a fast pace. However, a scientific school is needed, on the basis of which new and fundamental discoveries and solutions should and can be created. And for this, they simply did not have historical time. (just do not be confused with the knowledge that existed in ancient China). However, a situation may arise that China may take possession of a genius growing in other countries. Then all the "kapets"
          1. cast iron
            cast iron 12 December 2017 16: 09 New
            +1
            A scientific school in the USSR, after the devastation in the 1920s, took shape by the 1950s. Those. for 30 years. And China, compared with the USSR, is behind in the pace of 2 times.
    2. cast iron
      cast iron 12 December 2017 16: 07 New
      +1
      Vote further for Putin and the capitalists.
      1. gridasov
        gridasov 13 December 2017 19: 20 New
        0
        What does Putin have to do with it? I am Russian and it makes no difference to me who is at the head of the oligarchic clan. I am for Russia and Russian as a nation.
        1. cast iron
          cast iron 14 December 2017 12: 39 New
          0
          That’s precisely because you don’t care about Russia at all, that’s why you don’t go to the polls and at the expense of people like you (52% who did not come) in 2016, again, 100% of the seats are held by the EdRo capitalists. And they would have gone to the polls, voted for the Communists and already in the Duma there would have been a ratio of 50x50 or 60x40. And then already EdRo could not carry out its crazy laws from the first sneeze.
  14. Dzafdet
    Dzafdet 9 December 2017 16: 54 New
    +2
    Quote: Krabik
    Wang.

    When the domestic engine is knocked on and they are scattered about it. to companies, if they can, then Patt Ent Whitney will already make even more modern engines.

    And no one in their right mind will install domestic motors from private traders.

    Do not need. Our task is to get rid of the dominance of the Martians. Dump and - we will survive, if not, then we will be a gas station ..
    1. cast iron
      cast iron 12 December 2017 16: 10 New
      +1
      By voting for the capitalists in the elections you will not lose any Martians. Half of the youth in Russia live in the pink capitalist dreams that "everything depends only on your desire." And communism is worse for them than fascism, because with it there were no iPhones and a rusty 20 year old car could not be bought for 100 rubles to an individual)))))
  15. cedar
    cedar 10 December 2017 19: 27 New
    +1
    Quote: Dzafdet
    Our task is to get rid of the dominance of the Martians. Dump and - we will survive, if not, then we will be a gas station ..


    Such a large country as Russia cannot exist without its large passenger and transport airliners. And they cannot fly far without our engines, competitors will crush ...
  16. five0clock
    five0clock 11 December 2017 15: 50 New
    0
    Medical history: interview from 2013 http://gazetazwezda.livejournal.com/723882.html
  17. Anyone
    Anyone 13 December 2017 10: 44 New
    0
    cast iron, I've honestly mastered the first two paragraphs (first and secondly) from your post and did not go any further. Instead of just saying, “I was mistaken about the average salary in the USSR in the late 80s,” you wrote a whole paragraph about the salary of your father in 1981. I’ll tell you a secret - there is data on the average salary in the USSR for years freely available))
    Well, your pearl regarding how I know about the purchase prices for TS-1 for MGA in 1988, if I was not working in the structure at that time, I also appreciated. You didn’t work in this structure at all, but if you noticed, I’ve never in our discussion resorted to the level of argumentation “I am a pilot, and you are a teapot”)) Do you have any evidence that the purchase prices were different from those indicated by me? No? Great. And then I wanted to tell you about the tariff war between the MGA, Gosplan and Goskomtsen. In another topic, it may be - here it is offtopic.
    I propose to end the argument. Remain in your opinion that we still need our 4-engine long-range aircraft. In this regard, I could tell you a lot about the commercial problems of operating my native IL-86 and IL-96-300 in our modern conditions, but I think it is useless. The structure of the Russian air fleet, in which 2-motor SchF liners completely replaced the 4-motor ones, is better than me. Good luck.
    1. cast iron
      cast iron 13 December 2017 17: 21 New
      +1
      I looked at your "in the public domain" about sn in the USSR. Everything is like a carbon copy on all sites the same infa. True, the data of the Federal State Statistics Service are not given anywhere and never. And about faith in statistics, open the Rosstat data for 2017 and be surprised at the average salary in Russia in the amount of 38 000 rubles)))) Very funny. As if they took for statistics only Moscow and St. Petersburg. The remaining 110 citizens officially living on z.p. 000-000 rubles disappeared somewhere (this is according to the Federal State Statistics Service for 13).
      And why did you only cling to the period of devastation under Gorbachev? Can you provide data on the purchase prices for kerosene and its cost before 1985? It will be interesting to compare the effectiveness of the economies of the capitalist Gorbachev and those who came before him.
      Well, tell us about the tariff war in a separate article. It is advisable not only during the period of the traitor Gorbi, but also to affect other periods. And about passenger traffic in the USSR by periods. I'm serious. If you are a pro and know everything, then share it with everyone.
      You do not understand me. I believe that Russia needs a four-engine Chess Federation, provided that the welfare of citizens will increase, and the availability of air travel will increase. Of course, in the 90s, devastation and impoverishment, and even in the 00s, these same IL-86s will be unclaimed economically ineffective. But! When they were created, this was given a task from above. So, at the time of the decision to create the BF liner in the USSR, the population really needed it. Apparently IL-62 did not cover all the needs.
  18. complete zero
    complete zero 13 December 2017 19: 26 New
    0
    Yes, with the engines, eternal problems because of this, almost the best Polikarpov I -185 fighter in the world didn’t go into the series (if he were a bullet in the sky, he would have torn the chances like that tuzik heating pad)