Military Review

Narochnitskaya: What threatens Russia with the demonization of the Soviet state?

163
Narochnitskaya: What threatens Russia with the demonization of the Soviet state?



Whose terror is worse?

Vladimir Kozhemyakin, "AiF": - Natalia Alekseevna, on account of Stalin millions of ruined lives of innocent people. And when you read you, you may get the impression that you justify Stalin’s repressions. Is it so?

Natalia Narochnitskaya: - I must say right away - I am not a Stalinist. The only brother of my father disappeared in 1937, and my father was long considered the brother of the enemy of the people. Moreover, I consider the Bolshevik revolution a tragedy of universal proportions and would prefer to see our history without her, without Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin. But there are facts. In the religious wars of Protestants and Catholics, almost a third of the population of Central Europe was exterminated under the slogan “Kill them all! The Lord himself will then dismantle others and his own. ”

And in the dictatorship of Cromwell in the years of the English revolution, and in the revolutionary terror of the heralds of freedom, equality and fraternity of Robespierre and Danton, who invented the guillotine, per capita of the then population was destroyed much more than in the Stalinist USSR. In Vendée alone, 1793 thousand people were killed in 250, including children, and some historians have 400 thousand victims - that's for 25 million of the then French population!

But for some reason in the West they prefer not to recall these "exploits" of their predecessors, demonizing mainly the Stalinist regime. It is unlikely only because Stalin, unlike Cromwell, lived not so long ago.

- What, in your opinion, is the reason that at the same time they keep silent about the same Lenin?

“I still felt a change in perestroika: its ideological gurus, acting under the banner of anti-communism, somehow very consistently spared the orthodox Bolsheviks and ardent revolutionary maximalists. They were silent about the terror of Lenin's guard, in 1980's still unknown to society, because they would have to rehabilitate the object of their crimes - the “united and indivisible” Russia, and it is something alien to all the most ardent Westerners who hate Stalin, but not Lenin and Trotsky.

My father, who during the years of the revolution and the civil war was a high-school student of 11-16 years old, told me that Lenin time was even worse than Stalin's time. Every night, a high school student, an engineer, or a whole family were taken out of the neighboring houses, shots did not subside outside the city. From the red terror in 1922-1924. many more people died without trial than in the Stalinist camps. The Bolsheviks proceeded from the fact that it was not even necessary to seek blame before the revolution for a hostile class, for man is not free in his actions, being a product of social conditions. It is only necessary to calculate how many representatives of the counter-revolutionary classes are to be exterminated as a hindrance to the revolution. Against this background, prosecutor Vyshinsky looks like a model of legality.

In essence, the “1937 phenomenon of the year” was only the second act of the drama after the monstrous twenties, especially 1922-1924, according to the criteria of repression. But among the victims in the 30-e years were already the destroyers of Russia themselves. “A revolution like Saturn devours its children” - Anatol France’s words about the French Revolution are fully confirmed by our history. Remember the story "Children of the Arbat" - there the hero is not outraged by the repression against the "white guard, the true" enemies of the revolution. " He wonders: “Not those are arrested, not those shot” ... And this is almost a reproduction of Trotsky's thoughts. In an absentee dispute published in Berlin with the “victorious Stalinist line,” Trotsky is witting: “All power is violence, not an agreement.” Trotsky calls himself and the Leninist guard the Jacobins - the true revolutionaries, and the Stalin period - the Thermidorian reaction, which began to curtail the French revolution. “And we had such a big chapter when we also ... shot the White Guards and expelled the Girondins ... None of us are afraid of the shootings ... But you need to know who to shoot under which head. (Trotsky's italics - NN) When we shot, we were firmly aware of which chapter. ”

Try to touch Trotsky and even Lenin in the circles of the left intelligentsia, they will pick you up. But from Stalin they made the embodiment of the universal evil of all times and peoples.

This is largely the essence of post-perestroika ideology, whose idols were not at all going to rehabilitate Russia, which we lost. They were different and different in the depressing spirit of the smerdyakovism: “I hate all Russia, sir!”. The late Soviet cosmopolitan intellectual-nomenklatura elite was the closest to the first Bolsheviks - from all generations of the Soviet elite. It was precisely the ideologues of perestroika and 90's that didn’t fall upon the evil of the revolution, not directly at the repressive maxim that was laid in it, but at the Stalin period - because they hated Stalin not so much for repression as for his “great-power chauvinism”, although they didn’t admit it .

But, since you accept and even approve of the destruction of historical Russia by the Bolsheviks, who seized the power that fell out of the helpless hands of the then liberals who led Russia to disintegration and collapse, then you can accept the repressive principle, which is an inevitable part of the revolutionary doctrine. All revolutions always go through a period of repression. And Stalin is no worse in them than Lenin, Trotsky and K.

- You once said: “For some reason, Lenin is always spared for the crushing of a great empire, in which, by the way, the Baltic was not disputed by anyone. So the problem is not repression as such. ” But after all, under Lenin, the country, although it lost territory, but survived, did not fall apart, and then it was the communist project that began to conquer the world and successfully confront its geopolitical rivals. That is, Lenin, too, seems to be “guilty” of the fact that the West subsequently broke off his teeth about Russia. And foreign intervention after the revolution failed, if I am not mistaken, also under Lenin.

- The cliché of Soviet historiography became the thesis that the “whites” were ready to trade in territories, and the Reds proclaimed the defense of the socialist fatherland. But it was the opposite. In 1919, when the Civil War was going on, the unofficial ambassador of the Soviets Litvinov, who met secretly in Stockholm, proposed the annexation of territories, in particular the Baltic States, and in return - the withdrawal of the Entente's troops from Arkhangelsk in order to leave the whites without help at the mercy of the Reds. The Bolsheviks, “for the sake of preserving the revolution’s citadel,” Chicherin wrote, “gave Latvia Latgale, whose population did not want it,” gave Karabakh - “the original Armenian land” (also Chicherin's words) to the Azerbaijanis, because the Bolsheviks won in Baku, and in Armenia the nationalists Dashnaks. All white structures flatly refused to come to the conference planned by Lloyd George on the Princes' Islands, in order not to legitimize the disintegration of Russia, for all the self-proclaimed parts — the Menshevik Georgia, the Central Rada, and others — were also invited there. The Bolsheviks readily agreed.

Finally, it was Lenin's national policy and the division of the country on a national-territorial basis that became a time bomb that exploded in the 1991 year. By the way, the project of Stalin was not so radical - he proposed to make all the republics part of the Russian Federation. Lenin and Trotsky, in their maximalism, insisted on the USSR, so that later in the course of the world socialist revolution, "socialist" France, Germany, etc. would join it.

I think that against the background of obvious reverence for Lenin, the particular hatred of the West and our Westerners for Stalin is not due to his contribution to the atrocities that, of course, took place. The fact is that Stalin was completely free from admiration for Western history and saw through all the plans of his Western partners, knew how to beat them. Therefore, in the West, he is demonized not for repression, where he was not the first, but for creating a great new power on the spot of Russia, transforming the country into a geopolitical force that is equal to the whole West, an obstacle in its path.

Let us recall the essence of Khrushchev's "cult" of Stalin: it completely satisfied the long-term interests of the West. Out of the entire period of mass repression (1920-e - the beginning of 1950-x), only “1937 year”, “the cult of Stalin” and “Stalinism” were made in the minds of Soviet people the only symbol of horror. Such a half-truth, which is more dangerous than a lie, allowed us now to link with terror and to morally devalue the restoration of state foundations (even the memory of war), and not the essence of what was done to Russia.

“But President Boris Yeltsin, speaking at the beginning of the 1990s before the US Congress, said about the USSR:“ The communist idol that sowed social discord, hostility and unprecedented cruelty everywhere on Earth ... ”

- I regard the destruction of the USSR as a crime and I want to protect the Soviet history from defilement. For some reason, it’s considered here, since a person calls to respect Soviet history with respect, he must also glorify the revolution. But the USSR of my generation was not a pure implementation of the Bolshevik plan, its ideology was changing very seriously! Millions of Soviet people are not descendants of ardent revolutionisers of subversion, they are descendants of those who joined the party in the trenches of Stalingrad. They had nothing to do with the fiery Bolsheviks, who plotted a world revolution in Geneva cafes. Ordinary Russian people, yesterday's peasants, combined communist ideals with a desire to create on their land, and not with the idea of ​​worldwide destruction. They loved, created, were loyal to the family and the Fatherland, worked not for fear, but for conscience, rushed into the burning house to save their neighbor. Finally, with an unprecedented feat of self-sacrifice, they repelled Hitler’s aggression and defeated fascism, with their “blood redeeming Europe with freedom, honor and peace.” After the war, the enormous potential was created by the titanic labor of the people, which was so thoughtlessly and criminally squandered in 1990.

“Based on this logic, Hitler is a criminal because he committed genocide in foreign countries, and Pol Pot and Stalin destroyed their own people — and this is an internal historical process. It turns out to be a discrepancy - in the fact that one is called a criminal, and in relation to others we allow it. Why is that?

- The answer to this question is connected with the redistribution of the world that is developing before our eyes after the collapse of the USSR. The justification of the shameless offensive on the position of Russia is not just a belittling of our Victory, but a distortion of the very meaning of the Second World War, its outcome. New generations are being suggested that the bloody struggle was fought not for the historical existence of the peoples, but for the triumph of the “American democracy”. Ideas about the identity of the Hitler Reich and Stalin’s USSR, about the war as a clash between two totalitarianisms that competed for world domination, are being introduced into the public consciousness. In this logic, the Yalta-Potsdam system should be declared first as a relic of an outdated power balance policy, and then a temporary result of the struggle against two totalitarian regimes: the West had to temporarily put up with one of them in order to crush the other one and then for half a century weaken and destroy former ally.

But after all, the most important outcome of Yalta and Potsdam was the restoration of the actual succession of the USSR in relation to the geopolitical area of ​​the Russian Empire, combined with the newly acquired military might and international influence. Our Victory restored in place of great Russia a force capable of restraining the aspirations of anyone who wished to make the world unipolar. This, in turn, predetermined the subsequent “cold” opposition to its results. Today, an already non-communist Russia is experiencing an increasing geopolitical pressure.

Crowned despots

- Do you think that Stalin in the West is hated for the restoration of the territory of the historic Russian state. Why for the same thing do not hate other collectors of land - Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, other Russian emperors and empresses?

- Even as they hate! Read the famous American Russian writer Richard Pipes. His historical pamphlets about Russia are filled with contempt. Constant hints of misery and lack of culture of Russia adorn the section on the Mongol invasion: "If Russia was rich and cultural as ... - followed by the names of states - China, Persia, etc., - then the Mongols would have occupied it, because it was wrong, then they simply bestowed a tribute. ” Although the same Kiev surpassed many Western European cities in wealth and culture, second only to Italian. And read Engels, the monument to which they managed to erect against the Cathedral of Christ the Savior: the Slavs, he argued, were not just insignificant trash of history: they "were everywhere oppressors of all revolutionary nations, never had their own history, and only with the help of an alien yoke were forcibly raised to the first step civilization ".

And they don’t write about Ivan the Terrible, although Catherine de Medici ruined several times more people for one Varfolomeevsky night than he did in 30 years! At the same time, he daily repented, uttering all the names from his synodic of the tortured, but she did not repent. No one in the West is embarrassed by their crowned despots, they are only proud of their public affairs. It is funny that the Bolsheviks thought of themselves as successors of Robespierre, the Jacobins, who, by the way, invented "revolutionary terror". And the West is looking for the roots of Bolshevik extremism not at all in its own history, not among the Jacobins and religious fanatics of the bloody Reformation, but in Genghis Khan! Marsh Budyonny, in the opinion of the West, is the tramp of the hoofs of the Asiatic wild hordes.

- You said: “Let's separate and reject the revolutionary project that directly implied repression, the destruction of the so-called hostile classes, condemn it, but we will not tolerate it in the fight against external aggression, against the enemy, because the trouble happened not with the state, but with the Fatherland ". That is, do you propose to write off Stalin repression at the expense of victory in the war?

- Again, the question comes from the “axiom”, as if Stalin’s atrocities — both in scale and type — are something that falls outside of human history, an unforeseen deviation from the noble goals of the revolution. But, as I have already said, it was the Bolshevik revolution and the doctrine that directly prescribed and predetermined the repressive period, in which there were Lenin and Stalin stages, and Lenin was not better, but worse. However, at the end of the Stalin period, there was the Great Victory, and Russia in the image of the USSR became a great power ... The West, who demonized Stalin not at all from philanthropic bona fide denial and condemnation of the repressive principle in history, must be debunked, challenged all the geopolitical and legal acts of the second half of the XX century .

- What are the consequences of trying to put Stalin and Hitler on the same level?

- They are obvious. Isn't this already happening? Now the worldview is being implanted, which radically changes the whole idea of ​​the twentieth century. and creates a denial of Russia as a historical phenomenon, including in terms of denying the victory of the USSR in the war against Hitler Germany, and put communism on a par with fascism. While we ourselves trampled on the graves of our fathers, in some parliaments there were calls to declare the USSR a criminal state to be tried, and therefore question all decisions taken with its participation, its signatures under the most important territorial documents, under the UN Charter, etc. But the successor of those positions that were conquered, including with blood, is today's Russia ...

Do not question the identity of our Kuril Islands? Doesn't the Baltic claim compensation for being in the USSR? Although under the Teutons, they were prepared for the role of swineherdlings and maids without education, barely able to read geographical signs in German. Further, they will demand to annul the signature of the USSR under the most important international legal acts. And this is a treaty system in the field of armaments, and the UN Charter with its veto power of the permanent members of the Security Council. In order to challenge the geopolitical and legal decisions of the second half of the twentieth century, we need demonization of the victorious USSR, which is impossible without demonizing its then leadership.
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  1. Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 15 November 2017 06: 00
    27
    It’s time to pass a “mirror” law, for punishing Stalin as punishment for not recognizing the Holocaust.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. Varyag_0711
          Varyag_0711 15 November 2017 09: 21
          72
          With all my really deepest respect for Natalya Alekseyevna, this phrase distorted to put it mildly:
          The cliche of Soviet historiography was the thesis that the “whites” were ready to trade in territories, while the reds proclaimed the defense of the socialist fatherland. But it was the other way around.
          Excuse me, did the Reds invite the interventionists to their home in exchange for help in the fight against the Whites? Was it the Reds that tanks, airplanes and other weapons supplied in exchange for plundering the territory of Russia without hindrance? The fact that the Bolsheviks surrendered territories that they still could not hold could be blamed on them? And then, why does Natalya Alekseevna transfer the blame for the events of 1917 to the Bolsheviks? What, did the Tsar also overthrow Lenin? Or is it the Bolsheviks to blame for the fact that, due to their handshake and not the ability to control not only Russia, but generally, talkers from the interim government finally brought Russia to a state of half-life? It must be admitted that any revolution is a disaster for the country, but it was not the Bolsheviks who started the revolution in Russia, so why put all the blame on them. They shot schoolgirls and engineers say ... And they shot a lot? And who then carried out the industrialization of the country under Stalin? No, I do not deny that there were probably executions, but I repeat this is the misfortune of ANY revolution. But what led to this very revolution? Who brought the country that in less than 15 years, there were as many as three revolutions?
          Natalya Alekseevna, or you did not write this article, or I will not recognize you. Usually you are consistent in your arguments and arguments, but here in the article everything is not logical, here we think, we don’t think here, and here we generally wrap the fish. Were it not for Lenin, perhaps there would have been no Stalin. And liberal shit in the country has always been enough, take modernity. If we take up the country now, as Stalin took, then 10-15 percent of the population will go under the knife. And this will be primarily the so-called intelligentsia. All sorts of Cyril Serebrennikovs, Svanidze, Reichelgauzs, Gozmans, Mlechins, Chubays and other rabble, or rather "biomod" (by the way, Ksenia Sobchak declared herself about herself)! And this, by the way, will be right, because without stripping this layer, there will be no leap forward in the country, and there will be no elementary order. Because all Shmaram Baghdasaryan can violate all conceivable and inconceivable laws without consequences for himself, and Vasya Pupkin from Khatsapetovka can’t do anything, even his simple rights to life are not guaranteed.
          So Natalya Alekseevna, with many of your theses in this article, I fundamentally disagree, excuse me!
          1. freddyk
            freddyk 15 November 2017 11: 46
            11
            Plus, I could ten times, plus I would ten times.
            1. Varyag_0711
              Varyag_0711 15 November 2017 11: 56
              20
              freddyk Today, 11:46 ↑
              Plus, I could ten times, plus I would ten times.
              Thank you! hi But, the advantages in this case are not the main thing, the main thing is support and understanding of what is happening. And then the title of the article is so intriguing, but the content is with a strong scent.
              1. sabakina
                sabakina 15 November 2017 20: 04
                +5
                Alex, hi , wrote well, it’s a pity that she won’t read it ...
                1. Varyag_0711
                  Varyag_0711 15 November 2017 20: 35
                  13
                  Thanks Vyacheslav! hi But really sorry that he will not read. It’s a pity that people whom you respect, whom you believe, change their shoes in the air overnight to please you, it’s not clear what. Recently, there have been a lot of disappointments, a "pichal-bida" ... crying
                  1. sabakina
                    sabakina 15 November 2017 20: 45
                    +4
                    Lex, sorry, but not all is lost. After all, surely sits in any network. It just takes time and patience, which we often lack. Yours faithfully hi
          2. siberalt
            siberalt 15 November 2017 12: 12
            +6
            They just said through the mailbox that now conscripts to the duty station are being transported in passenger cars, and not in fireplaces as in the USSR. And is it an NTV channel that is not a foreign agent? belay
          3. badens1111
            badens1111 15 November 2017 14: 31
            11
            Quote: Varyag_0711
            Natalya Alekseevna, or you did not write this article, or I will not recognize you. Usually you are consistent in your arguments and arguments, but here in the article everything is not logical, here we think, we don’t think here, and here we generally wrap the fish. Were it not for Lenin, perhaps there would have been no Stalin. And liberal shit in the country has always been enough, take modernity. If we take up the country now, as Stalin took, then 10-15 percent of the population will go under the knife. And this will be primarily the so-called intelligentsia. All sorts of Cyril Serebrennikovs, Svanidze, Reichelgauzs, Gozmans, Mlechins, Chubays and other rabble, or rather "biomod" (by the way, Ksenia Sobchak declared herself about herself)! And this, by the way, will be right, because without stripping this layer, there will be no leap forward in the country, and there will be no elementary order. Because all Shmaram Baghdasaryan can violate all conceivable and inconceivable laws without consequences for himself, and Vasya Pupkin from Khatsapetovka can’t do anything, even his simple rights to life are not guaranteed.
            So Natalya Alekseevna, with many of your theses in this article, I fundamentally disagree, excuse me!

            Brilliantly worded! hi
          4. San Sanych
            San Sanych 15 November 2017 15: 43
            +3
            If Lenin had lived longer, it is not known what he would have "tricked", and we won’t know this. But the fact that with it the territory of Russia has decreased is a fact. Under Stalin, the country began to return all that was lost and headed for accelerated modernization, abandoning the NEP.
            1. Varyag_0711
              Varyag_0711 15 November 2017 16: 03
              24
              San Sanych Today, 15:43 ↑ New
              If Lenin had lived longer, it is not known what he would have "tricked", and we won’t know this. But the fact that with it the territory of Russia has decreased is a fact. Under Stalin, the country began to return all that was lost and headed for accelerated modernization, abandoning the NEP.
              Your comment is called "if my grandmother had a member, she would be a grandfather"!
              The fact that the country under Lenin decreased is really a fact, BUT there is a nuance. What were Lenin's chances to keep the Romanov empire crumbling at the seams? The chances were less than 50 percent to keep Russia from total annihilation, so what Lenin lost was a meager from what they could. In 1991, we lost many times more, but at the same time, for some reason, everyone was silent. Stalin only returned what was ours. He returned it to the Finns, the Poles, the Romanians, and the Japanese. Everything is back to square one. Now Putin has returned Crimea. Let's see what will happen next.
              1. San Sanych
                San Sanych 15 November 2017 17: 19
                +7
                The Turks were helped with gold and weapons, but at the same time they arranged terror and devastation for their people under Lenin and Trotsky, all takeaway, and all at the expense of the people, and above all the Russian people, and after Stalin there was a gold reserve which the USSR would never again there was not, and besides, Stalin always spoke respectfully of the Russian people, unlike Lenin and Trotsky, the latter was generally a pathological sadist. So you do not equal Stalin with them.
                1. badens1111
                  badens1111 15 November 2017 18: 47
                  +4
                  Quote: San Sanych
                  but at the same time they organized terror and devastation for their people under Lenin and Trotsky, all takeaway, and all at the expense of the people, and above all the Russian people,

                  Stupidity.
                  Quote: San Sanych
                  after Stalin, a gold reserve remained, which the USSR never had before, and besides, Stalin always spoke respectfully of the Russian people, unlike Lenin

                  Another stupid thing about Trotsky, so to speak, but the rest ... where did you pick up liberal dregs in such quantities?
                  Quote: San Sanych
                  Trotsky, the latter was generally a pathological sadist.

                  I don’t know about sadistic inclinations, but the fact that he was plotting, not disdaining cooperation with the Reichswehr and then the Gestapo, is the fact that in that case he’s “comrade-in-arms” to Lenin, who, for your information, actually saved the country at 17 from its deriban , which was repeated by the heirs of February and Trotsky in 90.
                  1. San Sanych
                    San Sanych 15 November 2017 19: 06
                    +4
                    Read the works of Lenin carefully, then maybe you will understand his attitude to the Russian people, not much better than that of Trotsky, or the same Kaganovich, and so on ... better answer why the Turks were given 100 thousand gold rubles, and even weapons in addition, in 1921, at a time when famine was rampant in Russia itself at that time?
                    1. badens1111
                      badens1111 15 November 2017 19: 48
                      +4
                      Quote: San Sanych
                      Read the works of Lenin carefully

                      Attentively. Quote.
                      "" Oh, a Russian man went through a centuries-old school of slavery: he knows how to read between the lines and agree on what the speaker hasn’t said ... the Russian people need to confiscate all the landlord’s land in order to throw off the yoke of feudal oppression in the entire economic and political life of the country. Without such a measure, Russia will never will not be free, the Russian peasant will never be at least somewhat well-fed and competent. "
                      Lenin V.I. About the election campaign and the election platform. 1911. MSS. T.20 p. 361 "
                      And we, Great Russian workers, full of feelings of national pride, want at all costs free and independent, independent, democratic, republican, proud Great Russia, building its relations with its neighbors on the human principle of equality, rather than humiliating the great nation of the feudal principle of privileges ... "
                      Lenin V.I. On the national pride of the Great Russians. 1914. MSS. T. 26 pp. 107-108
                      What's wrong?
                      Quote: San Sanych
                      why did the Turks bestow 100 thousand gold rubles, and even weapons in addition in 1921,

                      Why did Soviet Russia under Lenin help Kemalist Turkey, including gold and weapons?

                      - Mustafa Kemal was a situational ally of Lenin. As in the case of Weimar Germany, it was a temporary union of two countries that were in international isolation. For the Kemalists, military and financial assistance from the Bolsheviks, as well as coordination of the military strategy with Moscow, seemed to be an important factor in the victory over the Greek intervention, which was actively supported by the countries of the Entente, especially England. Turkey was very important for Soviet Russia in its confrontation with the Entente. Moreover, interaction with Turkey could hypothetically help to quickly and efficiently carry out the Sovietization of the Caucasus and establish Soviet control in the Black Sea region. Therefore, Lenin not only provided Kemal with serious military assistance, but in 1921 he sent to Ankara a military adviser to one of the most capable Soviet military commanders Mikhail Frunze. In addition to weapons and gold, the Bolsheviks supplied food to Turkey, despite the famine in their country. Of course, the price of such an alliance was very high for us, but Lenin was afraid to lose Turkey, believing that it could turn into an ally of England. http://www.istpravda.ru/digest/15246/
                      What are you unhappy with?
                      1. sabakina
                        sabakina 15 November 2017 20: 17
                        +8
                        Vlad, do not bother. It’s just that he didn’t read all the volumes of Lenin, but most likely, he simply read the quote from Ilyich somewhere.
                      2. San Sanych
                        San Sanych 15 November 2017 20: 32
                        +3
                        so what? greatly helped Soviet Russia? help for turkey? So Lenin did not need to be deified, he also had mistakes, otherwise some begin to have hysteria, just like Poklonskaya, but this is for another reason. Stalin, unlike Lenin, Khrushchev and Brezhnev, did not make freebies, helped other countries, but not for free
              2. Gardamir
                Gardamir 15 November 2017 17: 30
                +3
                Now Putin has returned Crimea.
                Putin is the successor of Yeltsin, he then returned Crimea so that Ukraine would not return.
              3. wax
                wax 15 November 2017 19: 36
                +4
                In order to return something, for starters you must at least exist. So the existence of Russia was ensured by the Great October Socialist Revolution, committed exactly before the Germans attacked Petrograd (Riga was taken, the German squadron was marching to the capital of Russia) and Kornilov’s speech against revolutionary Petrograd.
                Letter to the members of the Central Committee
                Comrades!
                I write these lines in the evening of the 24th, the situation is extremely critical. It’s clearer that
                now, verily, the delay in the rebellion of death is alike.
                With all my strength I convince my comrades that now everything is hanging by a thread, which is next in turn
                there are issues that are not resolved by meetings, not congresses (at least even congresses
                Soviets), but exclusively by the peoples, the masses, the struggle of the armed masses.
                The bourgeois onslaught of the Kornilovites, the removal of Verkhovsky shows that one cannot wait.
                We must, by all means, arrest the government tonight, tonight
                arming (winning, if they resist) junkers, etc.
                You can't wait !! You can lose everything !!
                The price of taking power at once: protecting the people (not the congress, but the people, the army and the peasants in
                first head) from the Kornilov government, which drove Verkhovsky and amounted to
                Kornilov’s second conspiracy.
                Who should take power?
                It doesn’t matter now: let it be taken by the Military Revolutionary Committee "or
                goy institution ”, which declares that it will hand over power only to true representatives of interest
                owls of the people, interests of the army (peace proposal immediately), interests of the peasants (take land
                should immediately abolish private property), the interests of the hungry.
                All areas, all regiments, all forces must be mobilized immediately and sent immediately
                delegations to the Military Revolutionary Committee, to the Central Committee of the Bolsheviks, urgently
                buoy: in no case leave power in the hands of Kerensky and the company until the 25th, no one
                way; To solve a case today is certainly in the evening or at night.
                History will not forgive procrastination for revolutionaries who could win today
                (and will probably win today), risking losing a lot tomorrow, risking losing everything.
                Having taken power today, we take it not against the Soviets, but for them ....

                Lenin
                1. karabas-barabas
                  karabas-barabas 18 November 2017 20: 50
                  0
                  Quote: Wax
                  In order to return something, for starters you must at least exist. So the existence of Russia was ensured by the Great October Socialist Revolution, committed exactly before the Germans attacked Petrograd (Riga was taken, the German squadron was marching to the capital of Russia) and Kornilov’s speech against revolutionary Petrograd.



                  Why is the lie of the mass murderer and traitor of RI and the Russian people Ulyanov post here ?! These scum were driven from all European countries, along with them, as history has shown, vile experiments on people and the state. The Russian army then beat the Germans and Turks and was on the side of the victors, England and France, and only thanks to the terrorist and traitor Lenin did the Germans manage to save their units on the eastern front. The Russian economy was then the fastest growing, finally a parliament began to form and RI began to transform into a modern state. Lenin-Stalin, these international terrorists and mass murderers took advantage of the February Revolution and seized power with the help of lies and promises. Of course, a huge fault lies with the dull Nikolai 2m, who allowed all this.
          5. NordUral
            NordUral 15 November 2017 16: 29
            +4
            An honest historian fights in it with genetic memory and liberal zombies, to which she was, to no small extent, like all of us, exposed.
          6. Old military officer
            Old military officer 15 November 2017 16: 35
            +3
            I join the author and fully support him. That is how it will be necessary to act when the people of love will bother this patient and unpretentious people to the limit. And the degree of glow rises every day, which these dogs and Baghdasaryans and their high-ranking patrons have successfully accomplished.
          7. IS-80_RVGK2
            IS-80_RVGK2 15 November 2017 17: 38
            +4
            Quote: Varyag_0711
            So Natalya Alekseevna, with many of your theses in this article, I fundamentally disagree, excuse me!

            It's funny, yes, to observe the miracles of verbal balancing in an attempt to lie so as to fit into the trends and at the same time leave the field for maneuver? You still do not understand what kind of people? Then you will find many wonderful discoveries. laughing How did Comrade Lenin write there? Political .. and so on. laughing
          8. wax
            wax 15 November 2017 19: 15
            +3
            Narochnitskaya was blown away as a historian and turned into an ordinary political scientist blah blah blah for the needs of the day, there is no historical evidence for this writing. Well, at least the destruction of the USSR is considered a crime.
          9. Dart2027
            Dart2027 15 November 2017 19: 54
            +2
            Quote: Varyag_0711
            Excuse me, did the Reds invite the interventionists to their home in exchange for help in the fight against the Whites?

            You know, there is one interesting point. The Communists love to scream that they say the whites were ready to give Russia to the invaders, they invited them, and the KA won and expelled them in a fierce struggle. She really fought with the whites, and who can name at least one more or less large battle with the invaders? At least thousands so on 10 killed and wounded? Some kind of strange intervention is obtained.
            Quote: Varyag_0711
            And who then carried out the industrialization of the country under Stalin?
            By the way a very interesting point. It is generally accepted that RI was a backward state with an illiterate population, but then how was industrialization carried out? You can buy equipment, but a highly qualified engineer needs to be trained for a decade and a half.
            1. Varyag_0711
              Varyag_0711 15 November 2017 20: 46
              15
              Dart2027 Today, 19:54 ↑
              She really fought with the whites, and who can name at least one more or less large battle with the invaders? At least thousands so on 10 killed and wounded? Some kind of strange intervention is obtained.
              Really strange, considering the fact that neither the British, nor the French, nor the Americans, nor even the Japanese were eager to participate in the hostilities. And so they kept a decent distance from the front line. But in the murder of civilians, in the robberies, violence and executions, they were noted in full. Or is it a secret for you with seven seals?
              By the way a very interesting point. It is generally accepted that RI was a backward state with an illiterate population, but then how was industrialization carried out?
              In principle, I don’t have to answer you to such obvious nonsense that you are carrying here. Nevertheless, it was precisely with the coming to power of the Bolsheviks in the country that they began to learn to read and write literacy. And it was from these workers and peasants that the Soviet working intelligentsia grew, which subsequently carried out the industrialization of the country. If you did not know this, then go to school, and if you consciously try to troll, which is closer to the truth, then in vain. Your "thin trolling" no one will appreciate.
              1. Dart2027
                Dart2027 15 November 2017 22: 15
                +1
                Quote: Varyag_0711
                given the fact that neither the British, nor the French, nor the Americans, nor even the Japanese were eager to participate in the hostilities

                And why? Russia lay in ruins and, in principle, could not withstand a full-scale war with the former allies. Why didn’t they finish her?
                Quote: Varyag_0711
                In principle, I don’t have to answer you to such obvious nonsense that you are carrying here. But nonetheless
                in order to create this very Soviet working intelligentsia, you need to have the necessary number of those who will create it, that is, highly qualified specialists.
                Quote: Varyag_0711
                It was with the coming to power of the Bolsheviks in the country that they began to teach literacy
                I don’t argue, but the question is how many were actually illiterate, especially when you consider that during the time of the Great Patriotic War and the devastation, to put it mildly, it wasn’t time for education to live.
          10. VS
            VS 16 November 2017 15: 32
            +2
            It is difficult to be anti-Soviet and at the same time defend Stalin)))

            "" The cliche of Soviet historiography was the thesis that the "whites" were ready to trade in territories, while the reds proclaimed the defense of the socialist fatherland. But it was the other way around. ""

            And Choi Narochnitskaya bashfully pretends that she doesn’t know WHAT agreements on the partition of the country were signed by the kolchak’s bunkchrusts and the like ??)))
          11. Ehanatone
            Ehanatone 17 March 2018 11: 49
            -1
            Thief
            And the interviewer there too in the biomass - with rotten questions
    2. Dead duck
      Dead duck 15 November 2017 12: 08
      +9
      Quote: Mavrikiy
      It’s time to pass a “mirror” law, for punishing Stalin as punishment for not recognizing the Holocaust.

      Better ban on:
      discussion, revision, etc., affecting those of that period which in any way can distort the essence or meaning.
      And indeed the whole story.
      What was, was.
  2. 210ox
    210ox 15 November 2017 06: 07
    18
    This is our story. Whatever it was. These were our fathers and grandfathers, our mothers. How can I forget, ignore everything. Turn into Ivanovs who don’t remember kinship? I agree with Mauritius .. It’s time to legally stop the distortion of our history.
    1. Uncle lee
      Uncle lee 15 November 2017 06: 34
      18
      Quote: 210ox
      It is time to legally stop the perversion of our history.

      And recognize the anti-Soviet enemies of the state!
      1. NordUral
        NordUral 15 November 2017 16: 31
        +4
        Laws are issued and applied by the State. And we have organized crime groups, mimicking the state. And while this gang is succeeding.
    2. BecmepH
      BecmepH 15 November 2017 06: 58
      +8
      Quote: 210ox
      This is our story. Whatever it was. These were our fathers and grandfathers, our mothers. How can I forget, ignore everything. Turn into Ivanovs who don’t remember kinship? I agree with Mauritius .. It’s time to legally stop the distortion of our history.

      Totally agree with you. Whatever it is, but this is OUR story. It is not necessary to carry it, it is necessary to draw conclusions and not repeat mistakes.
      I love similar articles for the comments that follow them. It's a pity there are few similar articles. And then you start reading the comments and, as if, you find yourself at a school break in the beginning:
      -9 aura.
      - Sam 9urak ...
    3. Sling cutter
      Sling cutter 15 November 2017 10: 17
      +9
      Quote: 210ox
      This is our story. Whatever it is. These were our fathers and grandfathers, our mothers. How can you forget, ignore everything.

      I just soldier
  3. moskowit
    moskowit 15 November 2017 06: 55
    12
    The fact is that Stalin was completely free from worship of Western history and saw through and through all the plans of his Western partners, knew how to beat them. Therefore, he was demonized in the West not for repressions, where he was not the first, but for the creation of a new great power in the place of trampled Russia, turning the country into a geopolitical force equal to the whole West, an obstacle in its path.

    Briefly and clearly! Read and listen to the Historian with a capital letter ..
    - I regard the destruction of the USSR as a crime and I want to protect the Soviet history from defilement. For some reason, it’s considered here, since a person calls to respect Soviet history with respect, he must also glorify the revolution. But the USSR of my generation was not a pure implementation of the Bolshevik plan, its ideology was changing very seriously! Millions of Soviet people are not descendants of ardent revolutionisers of subversion, they are descendants of those who joined the party in the trenches of Stalingrad. They had nothing to do with the fiery Bolsheviks, who plotted a world revolution in Geneva cafes. Ordinary Russian people, yesterday's peasants, combined communist ideals with a desire to create on their land, and not with the idea of ​​worldwide destruction. They loved, created, were loyal to the family and the Fatherland, worked not for fear, but for conscience, rushed into the burning house to save their neighbor. Finally, with an unprecedented feat of self-sacrifice, they repelled Hitler’s aggression and defeated fascism, with their “blood redeeming Europe with freedom, honor and peace.” After the war, the enormous potential was created by the titanic labor of the people, which was so thoughtlessly and criminally squandered in 1990.

    That's where the truth is the corrupt pseudo-historians of the Brewers and Svanidza and others like them ....
  4. Letnab
    Letnab 15 November 2017 07: 07
    +8
    More often, the opinion of such historians should be published!
  5. Diminisher
    Diminisher 15 November 2017 07: 14
    14
    My father, who during the years of the revolution and civil war was a gymnasium student of 11-16 years, told me that Leninist time was even worse than Stalin's time. Every night, from the neighboring houses, the schoolgirl, the engineer, the whole family were taken out, shots did not subside outside the city
    .


    We say that anti-Sovietism is bad, but at this very moment we are trying to sting this very Soviet past.
    I don’t want to offend Natalya Alekseevna, but I don’t think that her father was a direct witness to those events, he could well have heard similar from his neighbors, and they heard from his neighbors, and from others, hello, “a broken phone”.
    It is enough to include critical thinking: why shoot schoolgirls and engineers if they can benefit the homeland? (In addition to the alternatively developed ones, they can only say that the Soviet state was built on blood and lived only on blood).
    1. Uncle lee
      Uncle lee 15 November 2017 08: 06
      +7
      I agree, there is some kind of dual perception of the same events.
    2. captain
      captain 15 November 2017 13: 44
      +6
      Quote: Diminisher
      My father, who during the years of the revolution and civil war was a gymnasium student of 11-16 years, told me that Leninist time was even worse than Stalin's time. Every night, from the neighboring houses, the schoolgirl, the engineer, the whole family were taken out, shots did not subside outside the city
      .


      We say that anti-Sovietism is bad, but at this very moment we are trying to sting this very Soviet past.
      I don’t want to offend Natalya Alekseevna, but I don’t think that her father was a direct witness to those events, he could well have heard similar from his neighbors, and they heard from his neighbors, and from others, hello, “a broken phone”.
      It is enough to include critical thinking: why shoot schoolgirls and engineers if they can benefit the homeland? (In addition to the alternatively developed ones, they can only say that the Soviet state was built on blood and lived only on blood).

      Somehow you strangely condemn the author. She certainly thinks and speaks not as a fanatic of Bolshevism, she speaks as a patriot of Russia. This is its difference with people like you. For her, the history of Russia began long before 1917. Onak very soberly assessed the Leninist period of the Soviet government and Stalin. I agree with her; Lenin did much less good for our Motherland than Stalin.
      1. badens1111
        badens1111 15 November 2017 14: 37
        +4
        Quote: captain
        Somehow you strangely condemn the author. She certainly thinks and speaks not as a fanatic of Bolshevism, she speaks as a patriot of Russia. This is its difference with people like you. For her, the history of Russia began long before 1917. Onak very soberly assessed the Leninist period of the Soviet government and Stalin. I agree with her; Lenin did much less good for our Motherland than Stalin.

        "Is it exactly the same patriot? They crossed out here, smeared it, wiped it there, praised it, is this the knowledge of History?"
        Narochnitskaya swung at Lenin and Stalin? And what did she do comparable to them? Nothing but her gurgles on the topic of her family insults.
        You can’t put your strength in two chairs indulging outspoken anti-advisers as you imagine yourself immediately, supposedly a defender of the Soviet period in terms of Victory, the split of thinking in medicine has a clear definition, and in terms of historical interpretation, so who serves it and it’s balabonite.
        The fact that the History of Russia is not only 17, it seems that only you and your kind do not know, jumping from Nikolashka Besdarny, immediately in worship of the Bear the Bald and the Borka the Almighty.
      2. IS-80_RVGK2
        IS-80_RVGK2 15 November 2017 21: 50
        +2
        Quote: captain
        For her, the history of Russia began long before 1917

        You and the monarchists like you have already gotten the rotmister with your replicated stupidity. You are all really crazy there or a sect. They created for themselves some grotesque image of a communist and rush with him like a stupid person with a written bag. At the same time, it seems that they studied in a Soviet school should at least remember something from the school curriculum. Although it seems that the monarchists skipped the lessons of history, and they smoked a history textbook.
    3. dSK
      dSK 15 November 2017 21: 59
      +3
      Quote: Diminisher
      It is enough to include critical thinking: why shoot schoolgirls and engineers if they can benefit the homeland?

      Unfortunately, "critical thinking" in fact was not included. Only those who were shot on false denunciations, without trial or investigation, themselves stood against the wall. Quote: “The revolution as Saturn devours its children” - the words of Anatole France about the French Revolution are fully confirmed by our history.
      The law of a boomerang - neither evil nor good created by man, disappears without a trace. hi
  6. rotmistr60
    rotmistr60 15 November 2017 07: 19
    10
    Natalia Narochnitskaya

    The smartest woman has never betrayed her beliefs. I always listen to her with interest. Excellent answers to complex, one might say provocative questions of A&F.
    1. To be or not to be
      To be or not to be 15 November 2017 08: 31
      +5
      The smartest woman !!! The position of a statesman!
      About repression in Russia and the Union. .ala-ala of the West and the reasons. what does the West achieve
      Narochinskaya about Russians
      And about RUSSIA !!
      1. badens1111
        badens1111 15 November 2017 10: 10
        12
        Quote: To be or not to be
        About repression in Russia and the Union. .ala-ala of the West and the reasons. what does the West achieve

        I’ll add to your delight in the form of a barrel of honey, a shovel of tar, so as not to be very happy. It's not at all what you think.
        http://anticomprador.ru/publ/ehkskljuzivnaja_ruso
        fobija_ot_narochnickoj / 5-1-0-1049
        I share the opinion of all those who saw the anti-Soviet insides, which means anti-Russian (because in the Soviet Union “Russian” and “Soviet” were synonyms and anti-Sovietism is a form of Russophobia), doctors of historical sciences Natalya Alekseevna Narochnitskaya, no matter what patriotic utterances she covered. The rumor of her remarks rezanuli: “I was revived and openly propagated the malicious first Bolshevik hatred of the Russian state” and “I would personally prefer the history of our country without Lenin and Stalin” and significantly blurred the impressions of the conversation. I would like to know from a learned lady, and who would she prefer in place of Lenin and Stalin? Prince Lvov or “darling” of Kerensky, generals Kornilov and Denikin, and maybe the bloody executioner of the Russian people, Admiral Kolchak? In general, it’s rather strange to hear such statements from a person born after the war, and the daughter of a respected Soviet historian, academician, member of the CPSU and Stalin Prize Laureate Alexei Leontyevich Narochnitsky.
        http://www.liveinternet.ru/users/zinur/post206134
        054 /
        Well, I’ll add the opinion of the Orthodox. Undoubtedly the patriot of Russia, the priest Shumsky, about the fuss of various apologists “the races that lost”
        "I am convinced that the main reason why Vladimir Putin freed Reshetnikov from the leadership of RISI is the frenzied anti-Sovietism of Leonid Petrovich."
        Priest Alexander Shumsky, publicist
        Who does not know what RISI is? The Russian Institute for Strategic Studies, the founder of RISI, is the President of Russia.
        1. To be or not to be
          To be or not to be 15 November 2017 11: 20
          +1
          "To the question - is a revolution possible in present-day Russia - I reply with alarm: it is possible. Decisive action is needed from above so that it does not" rush "from below. And I really would not want the Great War to be the only way to stop the new revolution in Russia.

          Priest Alexander Shumsky, publicist, member of the Union of Writers of Russia
          1. badens1111
            badens1111 15 November 2017 11: 44
            +6
            Quote: To be or not to be
            And I really would not want the Great War to be the only way to stop the new revolution in Russia.

            And he is right. Who provokes? The whole liberal front.
            And mind you, it’s not at all those who work and then earn money for themselves, but a bunch of people who are absolutely unsuitable for governing the country, but trying to get into power, and there it is ... an explosion is inevitable ..
            Based on this, recently, Maltsev’s structures were defeated. Nazism, which served as an attempt by the liberals to organize a military core against the government, is a fact.
            Gudkov’s structures were crushed a little earlier, and this is the same fact, the actions of the authorities, against the liberals who were completely mad from the claims of the filthy spill. Those who finally relied on the WEST are in the interests of the West and, ultimately, in the division and division of Russia.
    2. Stas157
      Stas157 15 November 2017 09: 49
      12
      Quote: rotmistr60
      Natalia Narochnitskaya

      The smartest woman has never betrayed her beliefs. I always listen to her with interest. Excellent answers to difficult, you can say provocative questions.

      Aged already. With such a confusion of her own opinions, it’s just right on the bench in front of the porch to broadcast with grannies. It’s hard to understand Natalya Alekseevna! It is that it is impossible to demonize the Soviet past, then it tells us about the horrors of Stalinism and Leninism. And recently, on the eve of the centenary of the Great October Revolution, it was noted in Lenin’s watering with mud, along with our central channels. It opened our eyes to the fact that the first Soviet state of workers and peasants in the world, it turns out, was created by agents and spies of the capitalist West!
      So, everything is simple with her, but completely incomprehensible.
      1. IS-80_RVGK2
        IS-80_RVGK2 15 November 2017 17: 43
        +4
        Quote: Stas157
        So, everything is simple with her, but completely incomprehensible.

        Well, it happens when a person lies. smile
  7. Nonna
    Nonna 15 November 2017 07: 25
    11
    What a clever Natalia Narochnitskaya. That's who needs to be appointed the Minister of Culture, and not the doctor who knows which sciences Medinsky hangs a board Mannerheim and sponsors matilda. Something I did not hear from Putin truthful words about Stalin - he is crying more and more about the enemies of the people along with the liberals. That is why the entire Kremlin oligarchic stratum is hostile to the Russian people and Russia. That's when Putin and Co. repent for the bloody and Yeltsin center fight, for our fellow citizens who died 19 million from poverty, hunger, disease, drug addiction, alcoholism and unborn children, for Solzhenitsyn’s lies, for the total robbery of Russian bowels, when the shooting of defenders is recognized as a coup d'etat Of the White House. Then we say that the authorities in the Kremlin really care about the welfare of the people and Russia, they preserve the nation and history of the country, and not their offshore and golden chairs, which they grabbed with all their might.
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 15 November 2017 08: 18
      +4
      Quote: Nonna
      That's when Putin and Co. repent for the bloody and Yeltsin center fight, for our fellow citizens who died 19 million from poverty, hunger, disease, drug addiction, alcoholism and unborn children, for Solzhenitsyn’s lies, for the total robbery of Russian bowels, when the shooting of defenders is recognized as a coup d'etat Of the White House. Then we say that the authorities in the Kremlin really care about the welfare of the people and Russia, they preserve the nation and history of the country, and not their offshore and golden chairs, which they grabbed with all their might.

      --------------------
      Sublime and spiritual.
      But for me personally, as a father of three children and a Russian taxpayer, good medical care (that is, don’t spend millions on treatment in Germany and Israel unless something serious happens) is of great importance, good education - without buying sessions and extortion (in order to avoid this people with opportunities send their children to study abroad - the same millions) and strict supervision of food quality and catering (normally you can eat only in expensive restaurants or buying up in expensive super a la Alphabet of Taste, which also does not guarantee). Everything else is right, Stalin was wrong, Putin is thinking about the events of '93, whether he will repent for the construction of the Yeltsin Center, and whether I personally despise Solzhenitsin and Brodsky - I will think about retiring in a house in a pine forest near Gelendzhik, in a rocking chair ... although in the current way of life you have to plow to the grave. Which is also not indifferent to me.
    2. To be or not to be
      To be or not to be 15 November 2017 08: 24
      21
      It would be interesting. If today to apply those measures to today's thieves and thieves of state property, probably the columns would go to Siberia in a continuous stream?
      And it turns out on the antibiotic
  8. raw174
    raw174 15 November 2017 07: 46
    20
    I am still young and have not found the very path to the bright. When they start talking about Stalin as a tyrant, I do not like to put it mildly. Firstly: with him there was an explosive pace of industrial construction, although there were victims, but they were not in vain, justified, secondly: ALL young states experienced similar periods during their formation, well, third: WWII of course, whoever said anything, but the Soviet people defeated in the war, led by Stalin’s headquarters. And they did not fill up with corpses, but took with skill.
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 15 November 2017 08: 36
      +3
      Quote: raw174
      I am still young and have not found the very path to the bright. When they start talking about Stalin as a tyrant, I do not like to put it mildly. Firstly: with him there was an explosive pace of industrial construction, although there were victims, but they were not in vain, justified, secondly: ALL young states experienced similar periods during their formation, well, third: WWII of course, whoever said anything, but the Soviet people defeated in the war, led by Stalin’s headquarters. And they did not fill up with corpses, but took with skill.

      And there were 4 million denunciations.
      1. raw174
        raw174 15 November 2017 09: 30
        +8
        Quote: Krasnodar
        And there were 4 million denunciations.

        Sometimes they were justified, sometimes they were sorted out during the audit, sometimes innocent people suffered, victims of personal animosities and showdowns, but these sad facts are justified victims of hard time, which required tough decisions ...
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 15 November 2017 10: 23
          +4
          Quote: raw174
          Quote: Krasnodar
          And there were 4 million denunciations.

          Sometimes they were justified, sometimes they were sorted out during the audit, sometimes innocent people suffered, victims of personal animosities and showdowns, but these sad facts are justified victims of hard time, which required tough decisions ...

          Well, yes, the time was not easy, but I personally (I suppose you too) would not want to become a victim of denunciation during the "tough" period of history.
          1. raw174
            raw174 15 November 2017 10: 29
            +9
            Quote: Krasnodar
            Well, yes, the time was not easy, but I personally (I suppose you too) would not want to become a victim of denunciation during the "tough" period of history.

            Of course, but people also go to war not to die purposefully, but there’s no gain anywhere ...
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 15 November 2017 12: 04
              +3
              Quote: raw174
              Quote: Krasnodar
              Well, yes, the time was not easy, but I personally (I suppose you too) would not want to become a victim of denunciation during the "tough" period of history.

              Of course, but people also go to war not to die purposefully, but there’s no gain anywhere ...

              The war for your house and rot in prison are two different things ... In the first case, you protect your family (in fact, the comrade to your left and right during the battle), and here you will not be arrested for anything and the family will be sent off the beaten track (if your wife will not be arrested with you, but children will not be identified in the orphanage)
              1. badens1111
                badens1111 15 November 2017 14: 50
                +5
                Quote: Krasnodar
                and here they’ll arrest for nothing, and the family will be sent to the wilderness (if the wife is not arrested with you, but the children are not identified in the orphanage)

                It’s good to fornate with words already ... they arrested and imprisoned those directly guilty, and if anyone came up with 4 million denunciations, ask Svanidze and K. They know exactly how their relatives made these denunciations. Read what Larina wrote, how her accomplices told people .
                Innocent?
                “Although Bukharin’s letter contradicts some of his previous assurances of innocence, among the supporters of Bukharin's innocence it is nevertheless considered to be an unconditionally“ true ”document. Meanwhile, in 1971, one of Bukharin’s close associates, the Swiss Communist and member of the Executive Committee of the Comintern, Jules Amber Droz published his memoirs , where among other things he told:

                “Bukharin also told me that they decided to use individual terror to get rid of Stalin.”

                Among all the accusations of Bukharin, the most, perhaps, the most serious is connected with his participation in the conspiracy to kill Stalin. According to Amber Dro, already in 1929, Bukharin said that in order to remove Stalin from power, he and his accomplices decided to resort to terror (i.e., to murder). Although quite a lot is said about the latter in the testimonies of June 2, 1937 and at the trial of 1938, nevertheless, in a letter to Stalin of December 10, 1937 and at all confrontations known to us, Bukharin categorically rejected.

                But Amber-Dro’s statement proves that Bukharin lied to Stalin in a personal message dated December 10, 1937. [38] As for Amber Dro himself, he was considered a friend of Bukharin and hated Stalin. In addition, the memoirist lived outside the USSR, and therefore there can be no question of forcing him to make “necessary” statements. "
                Is this innocent?
                Avel Yenukidze became the central figure of what later became known as the “Kremlin affair”. In 1935, the People's Commissar of the NKVD Yagoda informed the leadership of the country about the discovery of a conspiracy involving workers in party and economic institutions on the territory of the Moscow Kremlin. All persons convicted in this case were rehabilitated by a commission under the Central Committee of the CPSU in 1989. Avel Yenukidze, whose case, as reported in the transcript of the “Bukharin” process, was set aside in a separate production, rehabilitated in 1960. During interrogation on April 27, 1937, Yenukidze himself connected the “Kremlin case” with the “right-wing” conspiracy, in which Bukharin participated, although he only named Tomsky by name. [47] The confessions of Yenukidze in all fundamentally important aspects coincide with the testimony of Yagoda, which he gave on April 19, 1937, and which says that in addition to Bukharin, armed groups of the Kremlin’s government guard participated in the same conspiracy. Both Yenukidze and Yagoda noted the crucial role of the Kremlin commandant Peterson, who was once the head of Trotsky’s train.
                And this ...
                Gorbachev not only declared Bukharin not guilty and achieved his restoration to the party. He adopted the "right" ideas of Bukharin on the "incorporation" of petty-bourgeois economic relations into socialism, in order to justify the turn in the USSR made to the so-called. market economy of the capitalist type. And to give Lenin’s gloss to his capitulation policy, the words attributed to Lenin about Bukharin as “the favorite of the whole party” were widely used. http://detectivebooks.ru/book/21360598/?page=8
                found the innocent ... Gorbachev and Yeltsin still tell that they are the greatest figures in the history of Russia ... you will become.
                1. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar 15 November 2017 16: 26
                  +1
                  Quote: badens1111
                  Quote: Krasnodar
                  and here they’ll arrest for nothing, and the family will be sent to the wilderness (if the wife is not arrested with you, but the children are not identified in the orphanage)

                  It’s good to fornate with words already ... they arrested and imprisoned those directly guilty, and if anyone came up with 4 million denunciations, ask Svanidze and K. They know exactly how their relatives made these denunciations. Read what Larina wrote, how her accomplices told people .
                  Innocent?
                  “Although Bukharin’s letter contradicts some of his previous assurances of innocence, among the supporters of Bukharin's innocence it is nevertheless considered to be an unconditionally“ true ”document. Meanwhile, in 1971, one of Bukharin’s close associates, the Swiss Communist and member of the Executive Committee of the Comintern, Jules Amber Droz published his memoirs , where among other things he told:

                  “Bukharin also told me that they decided to use individual terror to get rid of Stalin.”

                  Among all the accusations of Bukharin, the most, perhaps, the most serious is connected with his participation in the conspiracy to kill Stalin. According to Amber Dro, already in 1929, Bukharin said that in order to remove Stalin from power, he and his accomplices decided to resort to terror (i.e., to murder). Although quite a lot is said about the latter in the testimonies of June 2, 1937 and at the trial of 1938, nevertheless, in a letter to Stalin of December 10, 1937 and at all confrontations known to us, Bukharin categorically rejected.

                  But Amber-Dro’s statement proves that Bukharin lied to Stalin in a personal message dated December 10, 1937. [38] As for Amber Dro himself, he was considered a friend of Bukharin and hated Stalin. In addition, the memoirist lived outside the USSR, and therefore there can be no question of forcing him to make “necessary” statements. "
                  Is this innocent?
                  Avel Yenukidze became the central figure of what later became known as the “Kremlin affair”. In 1935, the People's Commissar of the NKVD Yagoda informed the leadership of the country about the discovery of a conspiracy involving workers in party and economic institutions on the territory of the Moscow Kremlin. All persons convicted in this case were rehabilitated by a commission under the Central Committee of the CPSU in 1989. Avel Yenukidze, whose case, as reported in the transcript of the “Bukharin” process, was set aside in a separate production, rehabilitated in 1960. During interrogation on April 27, 1937, Yenukidze himself connected the “Kremlin case” with the “right-wing” conspiracy, in which Bukharin participated, although he only named Tomsky by name. [47] The confessions of Yenukidze in all fundamentally important aspects coincide with the testimony of Yagoda, which he gave on April 19, 1937, and which says that in addition to Bukharin, armed groups of the Kremlin’s government guard participated in the same conspiracy. Both Yenukidze and Yagoda noted the crucial role of the Kremlin commandant Peterson, who was once the head of Trotsky’s train.
                  And this ...
                  Gorbachev not only declared Bukharin not guilty and achieved his restoration to the party. He adopted the "right" ideas of Bukharin on the "incorporation" of petty-bourgeois economic relations into socialism, in order to justify the turn in the USSR made to the so-called. market economy of the capitalist type. And to give Lenin’s gloss to his capitulation policy, the words attributed to Lenin about Bukharin as “the favorite of the whole party” were widely used. http://detectivebooks.ru/book/21360598/?page=8
                  found the innocent ... Gorbachev and Yeltsin still tell that they are the greatest figures in the history of Russia ... you will become.

                  How strict you are, however ... :)


                  The brother of my great-grandfather, an old-school, Bolshevik who passed the WWI and civilian, was arrested at 38 in Zaporozhye. After half a year, his wife. The great-grandfather of their children found somewhere in Uzbekistan after the Khrushchev thaw, his brother died, his wife went out of prison, but she went off the roof - she was completely apathetic to everything, and the fig didn't do anything to herself.
                  They were guilty or not - HZ. But I would not want to live under such power.
      2. Captain45
        Captain45 16 November 2017 19: 50
        +1
        Quote: Krasnodar

        3
        Krasnodar Yesterday, 08: 36 ↑ New
        Quote: raw174
        I am still young and have not found the very path to the bright. When they start talking about Stalin as a tyrant, I do not like to put it mildly. Firstly: with him there was an explosive pace of industrial construction, although there were victims, but they were not in vain, justified, secondly: ALL young states experienced similar periods during their formation, well, third: WWII of course, whoever said anything, but the Soviet people defeated in the war, led by Stalin’s headquarters. And they did not fill up with corpses, but took with skill.

        And there were 4 million denunciations.

        And who wrote them? Probably Stalin at night ... belay
    2. freddyk
      freddyk 15 November 2017 11: 58
      +3
      As I think, in the understanding of Stalin, a country is such a big anthill, where everyone lives for the benefit of his existence, and for the benefit of society, that is, the people as a whole. The life of a single ant can be sacrificed for the well-being of the whole society. Something like this. I think this was his idea.
      1. badens1111
        badens1111 15 November 2017 12: 02
        11
        Quote: freddyk
        As I think, in the understanding of Stalin, the country

        Recently, M. Zadornov died.
        The clerics were only able to mumble something about "Orthodoxy" ... But Zadornov left behind this as a call and as a testament.
        "To establish fierce control over the main eternal misfortune of Russia - bureaucracy. How? Do not idle talk like the current president, but give the Accounts Chamber ... Are you ready to breathe air into the chest? Under the control of the parliamentary ... opposition! Yes, yes, the Communists! It because only the Communists have such requirements for power in the program very clearly. And secondly, what kind of comedy is it: "United Russia" steals itself and controls itself? That is, it calculates the stolen goods! With the same success, the husband-owner of the company can control the wife of the accountant and make claims if she does not share the stolen from him in time with him.



        By the way, about the Communists ... Many today say: “Oh, these Communists are some kind of nightmare!” And when you ask: “Why a nightmare? Explain specifically? " No one really can not answer. They become numbenders. I would advise those who have such verbiage to read the program of the Communist Party. Incidentally, it contains a lot of concrete proposals, and not just like other parties, slogans and slogans, and shows in concrete figures what happened to our economy after the collapse of the USSR. Impressive !!! "
        https://zelenyislon.livejournal.com/58062.html
        1. freddyk
          freddyk 15 November 2017 12: 09
          +2
          Quote: badens1111
          I would advise those who have such verbiage to read the program of the Communist Party. Incidentally, it contains a lot of concrete proposals, and not just like other parties, slogans and slogans, and shows in concrete figures what happened to our economy after the collapse of the USSR. Impressive !!! "


          I read this program, but how to translate it into the modern realities of a liberal country? This is impossible, except by force.
        2. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 15 November 2017 12: 14
          +1
          Quote: badens1111
          Quote: freddyk
          As I think, in the understanding of Stalin, the country

          Recently, M. Zadornov died.
          The clerics were only able to mumble something about "Orthodoxy" ... But Zadornov left behind this as a call and as a testament.
          "To establish fierce control over the main eternal misfortune of Russia - bureaucracy. How? Do not idle talk like the current president, but give the Accounts Chamber ... Are you ready to breathe air into the chest? Under the control of the parliamentary ... opposition! Yes, yes, the Communists! It because only the Communists have such requirements for power in the program very clearly. And secondly, what kind of comedy is it: "United Russia" steals itself and controls itself? That is, it calculates the stolen goods! With the same success, the husband-owner of the company can control the wife of the accountant and make claims if she does not share the stolen from him in time with him.



          By the way, about the Communists ... Many today say: “Oh, these Communists are some kind of nightmare!” And when you ask: “Why a nightmare? Explain specifically? " No one really can not answer. They become numbenders. I would advise those who have such verbiage to read the program of the Communist Party. Incidentally, it contains a lot of concrete proposals, and not just like other parties, slogans and slogans, and shows in concrete figures what happened to our economy after the collapse of the USSR. Impressive !!! "
          https://zelenyislon.livejournal.com/58062.html

          As part of the election campaign of Zyuganov ..
        3. raw174
          raw174 15 November 2017 12: 41
          +5
          Quote: badens1111
          read the program of the Communist Party.

          I haven’t read the program, but if it is consistent with the theses that the communists broadcast in the media, then we are often talking about the nationalization of enterprises in the raw materials and industrial sectors, and transferring them to the state. In my couch, this is not possible right now for the following reasons:
          1. It contradicts the constitution and many laws of the Russian Federation. It is necessary to redraw all legislation, and this will entail a lot of conflicts, because all existing regulations will go down the drain.
          2. It will be essentially an internal war, because the owners will not want to simply give the state property, they will create private armies, the "partners" will use this tear, and the industry will essentially rise ...
          3. I’m not sure that the director appointed for the salary will always manage production as efficiently as the current top manager.
          Maybe somewhere wrong, but these are my thoughts ...
          1. badens1111
            badens1111 15 November 2017 14: 54
            +4
            Quote: raw174
            It contradicts the constitution and many laws of the Russian Federation,

            Adopted in 1993. How it was accepted and by whom it was written is known. Whether such a Constitution and laws are necessary, it is already clear that it is not needed.
            Quote: raw174
            It will be essentially an internal war, because the owners will not want to simply give the state property, they will create private armies,

            Well, there have already been attempts by private armies, Gudkov and K, where are they? Of course there are some who go to die for the loot of the nouveau riche, but how many are there. An example of one Cherkizon huckster tells you anything, says? There are a lot of ways all this gang lead to obedience.
            Quote: raw174
            I’m not sure that the director appointed for the salary will always manage production as efficiently as the current top manager.

            What are you ??? Are you really sure that these top-mop managers manage successfully ??? Is it with such thefts everywhere where they manage something there?
            1. IS-80_RVGK2
              IS-80_RVGK2 15 November 2017 17: 58
              +2
              Quote: badens1111
              Well, there have already been attempts by private armies, Gudkov and K, where are they? Of course there are some who go to die for the loot of the nouveau riche, but how many are there. An example of one Cherkizon huckster tells you anything, says? There are a lot of ways all this gang lead to obedience.

              It's not so simple. There are already quite a few people who are satisfied with the current socio-economic formation, even if they are not satisfied with the current state of affairs in the country, and you really get a civil war when you try to switch to socialism. And there are no people of the scale of Lenin and Stalin with an iron will, an outstanding mind and the ability to lead people along. No organization. Not to count as such the old opportunist Zyuganov and the capitalist party of the Russian Federation. No adequate work can be seen on estimates of the reasons that led to failure last time. How to build communism in such conditions? It will be certain doom. And there is no revolutionary situation in the country either.
              Quote: badens1111
              What are you ??? Are you really sure that these top-mop managers manage successfully ??? Is it with such thefts everywhere where they manage something there?

              Somewhere like that. Somewhere not. But one cannot fail to notice some changes for the better in relation to what happened in the USSR. Another thing is that a number of tasks that the country is currently facing within the framework of capitalism are probably impossible at all.
              1. dSK
                dSK 15 November 2017 22: 14
                +4
                Hello Makar!
                Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                But one cannot fail to notice some changes for the better in relation to what happened in the USSR

                Social revolution always chaos, destruction, national woes. Need social evolution - development of positive qualities and the elimination of negative ones. Breaking does not build. hi
                1. raw174
                  raw174 16 November 2017 06: 31
                  +3
                  Quote: dsk
                  Social revolution is always chaos, destruction, popular woes. We need social evolution - the development of positive qualities and the elimination of negative ones. Breaking does not build.

                  Exactly! Definitely +
                2. IS-80_RVGK2
                  IS-80_RVGK2 16 November 2017 08: 24
                  +1
                  Quote: dsk
                  Social revolution is always chaos, destruction, popular woes. We need social evolution - the development of positive qualities and the elimination of negative ones. Breaking does not build.

                  If everything were so simple we would observe permanent social evolution. But here everything somehow turns out to be a revolution. There are always those who in the current state of affairs are happy with everything and they resist change, which means that conflict is inevitable.
                  1. badens1111
                    badens1111 16 November 2017 08: 45
                    +1
                    Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                    There are always those who in the current state of affairs are happy with everything and they resist change, which means that conflict is inevitable.

                    Note, the group of “especially outstanding dissatisfied”, the liberal front consists of people who are well-off, own considerable financial resources, and we are offered to be afraid, afraid of the indignation of the common population, for the exorbitant appetites of a handful of people. The question is, who is preparing that social indignation, in whose interests? The people? No, in Ukraine to see who saddled the power there ..
                    1. IS-80_RVGK2
                      IS-80_RVGK2 16 November 2017 09: 31
                      +2
                      Quote: badens1111
                      Note, the group of "especially outstanding dissatisfied", liberal frond consists of people who are quite well-off, who own considerable financial resources

                      Everything is numb to our liberals to steer. Their experience of 1917 taught nothing. smile
                      Quote: badens1111
                      The question is, so who is preparing the social indignation, in whose interests? People? No, in Ukraine you can see who saddled the power there ..

                      This bourgeois coup in Ukraine, for our government, on the one hand, is of course a headache, but on the other, you can’t imagine better. You can hang noodles on the ears of the people about the fact that the revolution is not a good thing, because look at what is happening in Ukraine and sit quietly under this song, do nothing special and continue to rob the country in your interests. The main thing is that without revolutions, because revolution is evil. But the income gap is an annoying trifle, here the revolution is yes - evil, a guard full of education is such a trifle, wild horror in medicine, despite all these attempts to change something there, the ditched industry, which is still rising from its knees and it won’t rise in any way, it’s also a trifle, demography, but we don’t bring migrants, a full guard in the space industry, it also doesn’t matter, we are reborn, wait another hundred years, and we will go back and forth. The main thing is that there are no revolutions. And the fact that revolutions from such an attitude towards their country and their people turn out is apparently their brain refuses to perceive, because it has a preference for eating, eating, eating.
                      1. badens1111
                        badens1111 16 November 2017 09: 43
                        +2
                        Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                        Everything is numb to our liberals to steer. Their experience of 1917 taught nothing.

                        Why, then ... in essence, those who made the coup d'etat 90, the same Februaryists, they steered .. yes so that they nullified all the achievements not only of the Soviet period, but also of the imperial one. There really aren't any, but others still revolve among those in power .
                        Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                        You can hang noodles on the ears of the people about the fact that the revolution is not a good thing, because look at what is happening in Ukraine and sit quietly under this song, do nothing special and continue to rob the country in your interests. The main thing is that without revolutions, because revolution is evil.

                        Well, now you have correctly formulated the answer to what is happening, and they tell us about evolution, there are two ways, revolution from above or destroying rebellion from below, so what can be prepared from below and prepared, just the spiritual descendants of all the same wish to ride Februaryists.
                        Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                        And the fact that revolutions from such an attitude towards their country and their people turn out is apparently their brain refuses to perceive, because it has a preference for eating, eating, eating.

                        That's it.
            2. raw174
              raw174 16 November 2017 06: 30
              +2
              Quote: badens1111
              Adopted in 1993. How it was accepted and by whom it was written is known. Whether such a Constitution and laws are necessary, it is already clear that it is not needed.

              Nevertheless, it is a law. Good or bad, it needs to be improved, improved, and not broken in one fell swoop.
              Quote: badens1111
              Well, there have already been attempts by private armies, Gudkov and K, where are they? Of course there are some who go to die for the loot of the nouveau riche, but how many are there. An example of one Cherkizon huckster tells you anything, says? There are a lot of ways all this gang lead to obedience.

              Actually comrade IS-80_RVGK2 said everything correctly, I have the same thoughts, he beat me. The main thing is that there is no request for revolution in society, there is no dissatisfaction with the authorities among the mass of citizens.
              Quote: badens1111
              Are you really sure that these top-mop managers successfully manage?

              For the most part - YES, because the current leader has a personal interest in developing the enterprise, even a plumber in the workplace works better than the one on the salary ...
              1. badens1111
                badens1111 16 November 2017 08: 42
                +3
                Quote: raw174
                For the most part - YES

                For the most part, no. Https: //topwar.ru/129450-uroven-bankrot
                stv-rossiyskih-kompaniy-priblizilsya-k-istoriches
                komu-maksimumu.html
                Quote: raw174
                The main thing is that there is no request for revolution in society, there is no dissatisfaction with the authorities among the mass of citizens.

                35% think otherwise. This is an alarming symptom.
                Quote: raw174
                Nevertheless, it is a law. Good or bad, it needs to be improved, improved, and not broken in one fell swoop.

                The question is not to break it in one fell swoop, but to change cardinally the provisions that are imposed by absolutely non-state forces on that Law. Have you forgotten who wrote it and under whose dictation? For doubters and uninitiated: People often ask why you took that the US wrote us the Constitution and generally write laws? What nonsense ??? Here, read, this is the official website of the US State Agency for International Development (USAID): The United States Agency for International Development (USAID) has its own website.

                The fund’s website has a large section: “USAID in Russia”. This is now about "past merits." There we read quite openly: "USAID-funded Rule of Law implementers helped draft the Russian Constitution, Part I of the Russian Civil Code, and the Russian Tax Code." "USAID funded the rule of law in the work of performers involved in drafting the Constitution of the Russian Federation, part I of the Civil Code of the Russian Federation, as well as the Tax Code of the Russian Federation." The "American partners" helped us with all their might. In the name of democracy. http: //xn--80aa3aekaebe4a6lc.xn--p1ai/docs/post67
                6.html
                And what are these "writers" of the law famous for?
                Gennady Burbulis, a well-known figure from the team of liberal reformers, who in 1992 served as the head of the group of advisers to the President of the Russian Federation, spoke out on this subject very frankly and even cynically: “The Constitution adopted on December 12, albeit through the ear, albeit through the ass adopted , - it is and it is that legal basis that is necessary for moving forward ”(Russian Thought. 1994. June 2–8. P. 9). As they say, no comment ...
                According to Viktor Sheinis (a member of the Yabloko party), one of the authors of the Russian constitution, chief researcher at the Institute of World Economy and International Relations of the Russian Academy of Sciences, the “presidential draft” of the constitution was created under the auspices of three people - Sergey Sergeyevich Alekseev, Anatoly Alexandrovich Sobchak and Sergey Mikhailovich Shakhrai (naturally, all of them, including Sheinis, who was once expelled from the Komsomol, in Soviet times were members of the CPSU, that is, they officially belonged to the vanguard of the builders of communism and accordingly should have taught this to others, including by personal example of selfless service to ideals true, not bourgeois-liberal freedom).
                https://imhotype.livejournal.com/479216.html
                Even the pro-government N. Starikov, the nerves can’t stand it, in fact what is written there ..
                Article 13, clause 2 of the Constitution says: “No ideology can be established as state or mandatory.” It turns out that Russia is forbidden to have its own national ideology. If you carefully re-read the Constitution, then only human rights and freedoms act as an ideology, but there are no duties! As a result of this, the Constitution of the Russian Federation can be called liberal in the literal sense of the word. And since there is no ideology of its own, and besides, it is forbidden to have it according to the Constitution, it means that it is possible to instill in the Russian people a foreign ideology, and not one. These include tolerance for sexual perverts, imposed Western juvenile technologies, the Bologna education system, the discrediting of historical heritage, etc.
                https://xn--80aealaaatcuj2bbdbr2agjd6hzh.xn--p1ai
                / const
                What do you say to these fairly fair remarks?
                1. raw174
                  raw174 16 November 2017 09: 28
                  +3
                  Quote: badens1111
                  For the most part, no.

                  In the example you cited, we are talking about jur. faces, a significant part of them - not production, but one-day people and spiculents, we need the example of industrialists, they do not go broke so often ...
                  Quote: badens1111
                  35% think otherwise

                  Do you think 35% will be typed? Well, maybe in some regions only ...
                  Quote: badens1111
                  The question is not how to break it in one fell swoop, but how to cardinally change the provisions that are imposed by absolutely non-state forces on that Law. Have you forgotten who wrote it and under whose dictation?

                  Yes, it’s not a matter of who wrote then ... Now there is also a lot of talk about the fact that the revolution of 17 was financed by the West, but years have passed and the situation has changed.
                  Our state, in fact, is less than 20 years old and does not need to make sharp movements, it is better to progressively. Long, but true ... The formation of the state, and most importantly its elites, is a process going on with the change of generations ...
                  1. MrK
                    MrK 17 November 2017 19: 40
                    +2
                    Quote: raw174
                    As a matter of fact, our state should not do less than 20 years and make sudden movements, it’s better to progressively. Long but true ...


                    Yeah. Russia alone on earth. And its statehood can, as in the USA, develop for 200 years. Who will give Russia 50 - 200 years to develop?
                    And where is it developing? So far, Russia is dying slowly and painlessly without regaining consciousness, under television anesthesia.
                    1. raw174
                      raw174 20 November 2017 06: 28
                      +2
                      Quote: mrark
                      Who will give Russia 50-200 years to develop?

                      And it’s easy to be and cannot ... But we need to build our own state, the Communists built, it didn’t work out, it’s our turn.
                      Quote: mrark
                      And where is it developing? So far, Russia is dying slowly and painlessly without regaining consciousness, under television anesthesia.

                      Then can I not pay the mortgage? all the same, everything will fall apart ... It’s not clear to me where did you get the idea that DIES? ..
                  2. badens1111
                    badens1111 17 November 2017 20: 10
                    +1
                    Quote: raw174
                    In the example you cited, we are talking about jur. faces, a significant part of them - not production, but one-day people and spiculents, we need the example of industrialists, they do not go broke so often ...

                    Thank you, dear, I thought that our mustache is fine, what are we going to do with these? Http: //marketsignal.ru/2017/11/16/begstvo-r
                    ossijskix-elit-v-evropu-uskorilos-vdvoe /? utm_sour
                    ce = finobzor.ru

                    Quote: raw174
                    Do you think 35% will be typed? Well, maybe in some regions only ...

                    Do you live in Moscow? Stick your nose out in the hinterland.
                    Quote: raw174
                    Yes, it’s not a matter of who wrote then ... Now there is also a lot of talk about the fact that the revolution of 17 was financed by the West, but years have passed and the situation has changed.

                    Tales are not interesting to me.
                    Quote: raw174
                    Our state, in fact, is less than 20 years old and does not need to make sudden movements,

                    Somewhere I already heard it .. and the bear said about it half asleep, but I just didn’t understand where he had gone for more than 1000 years. We have an illiterate bear ...
                    1. raw174
                      raw174 20 November 2017 06: 35
                      +2
                      Quote: badens1111
                      Thank you, dear, I thought that our mustache is fine, what are we going to do with these?

                      The page does not exist or has been deleted ...
                      Quote: badens1111
                      Do you live in Moscow? Stick your nose out in the hinterland.

                      My region is encrypted in my nickname, but not everyone will be able to decrypt it wink That’s why I’m talking about industry, I live in environmentally unfavorable conditions, and industry would be bent, it would be easier to look and breathe ... but on an empty stomach (((
                      Quote: badens1111
                      Somewhere I already heard it .. and the bear said about it half asleep, that's just where he had gone for more than 1000 years,

                      I didn’t hear, I’m speaking on my own ... But judge for yourself, there was a coup, not only at the top, but also in the minds of people, in fact, in the 90s Russia started from a new sheet ...
                      1. badens1111
                        badens1111 20 November 2017 10: 07
                        0
                        Quote: raw174
                        But judge for yourself, there was a coup, not only at the top, but also in the minds of people, in fact, in the 90s, Russia began with a new sheet ...

                        Misconception: Russia has returned to the past, to the bad past, to the hell of the most dense capitalism, in its most criminal form, the oligarchic form.
            3. MrK
              MrK 17 November 2017 19: 30
              +2
              Quote: badens1111
              What are you ??? Are you really sure that these top-mop managers successfully manage ???


              I agree. Let colleagues recall the Shishkin-Morning map in a pine forest. Where the bears are modern managers, they climb on felled trees. And these trees are the Russian economy.
              1. badens1111
                badens1111 17 November 2017 20: 10
                +1
                Quote: mrark
                Where the bears are modern managers, they climb on felled trees. And these trees are the Russian economy.

                Yes, unfortunately, the comparison takes place to be, with all the screams, that our mustache is fine.
                1. raw174
                  raw174 20 November 2017 06: 42
                  +2
                  Quote: badens1111
                  with all the cries that our mustache is fine.

                  Yes, no one says that everything is fine, but it’s so bad, it hasn’t been lost or passed, life goes on, there are problems, they are being solved, new ones are emerging ... The process is ongoing, development is ongoing. How did we live in the 90s and how now? And very little time has passed, very little.
  9. parusnik
    parusnik 15 November 2017 08: 16
    +6
    - The cliche of Soviet historiography became the thesis that the “whites” were ready to trade in territories
    ... I would like to deal with the “whites” .. It is clear that the “whites” are Kornilov, Kolchak, Yudenich, Wrangel .. and the Menshevik government in Georgia, by the way, was headed by the “heroes” of February 1917, hetman Skoropadsky, Petlyura, Pilsudski and the rest are who, they, too, were of type "single and indivisible" were ..? They were also supported by England and France .. The Georgian representative of the Menshevik government, when he demanded that Denikin surrender Sochi to Georgia, said that England wanted it to ... It’s somehow not clear that the February revolution was normal when the king was overthrown and the bourgeoisie came to power, October is not normal ...
  10. ism_ek
    ism_ek 15 November 2017 08: 17
    +3
    Started for health, and finished for peace.
  11. Sars
    Sars 15 November 2017 09: 02
    +6
    In 1937, Stalin was surrounded by the Trotskyists, the situation was radically suppressed by 1942 (the failure of the 1941 Red Army was all on the account of this gang).
    Now the descendants of the demonoids who seized power in 1917 hang all the "dead cats" on Comrade. Stalin.
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 15 November 2017 10: 24
      +2
      Quote: SarS
      In 1937, Stalin was surrounded by the Trotskyists, the situation was radically suppressed by 1942 (the failure of the 1941 Red Army was all on the account of this gang).
      Now the descendants of the demonoids who seized power in 1917 hang all the "dead cats" on Comrade. Stalin.

      Yes, the Trotskyists forced Stalin to ignore Barbarossa and refrain from a preemptive strike))))
      1. badens1111
        badens1111 15 November 2017 10: 36
        +8
        Quote: Krasnodar
        Yes, the Trotskyists forced Stalin to ignore Barbarossa and refrain from a preemptive strike))))

        But would you need the USSR to commit the first act of aggression? With the subsequent consolidation of Germany, England and the USA against the USSR?
        Alas for you, Stalin was in the country, and not the Trotskyists, and the result is May 1945 in Berlin. Does this give you peace?
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 15 November 2017 12: 18
          +3
          Quote: badens1111
          Quote: Krasnodar
          Yes, the Trotskyists forced Stalin to ignore Barbarossa and refrain from a preemptive strike))))

          But would you need the USSR to commit the first act of aggression? With the subsequent consolidation of Germany, England and the USA against the USSR?
          Alas for you, Stalin was in the country, and not the Trotskyists, and the result is May 1945 in Berlin. Does this give you peace?

          )))))
          In 1941, England bombed Germany in full, which tried to knock out its aircraft the year before and landed on the island as part of Operation Sea Lion. The states already helped England. And it would hardly have affected the decision of the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor, so that the United States would have fought on the right side. It gives me no peace that we were not in Berlin in May 1943.
          1. Per se.
            Per se. 15 November 2017 14: 17
            +1
            Quote: Krasnodar
            In 1941 England has bombed Germany the whole
            Often they say. that history does not tolerate the subjunctive mood, but history, as a database for events, "tolerates", and even requires analysis. I personally wonder how justified was our treaty with the Germans, after which Hitler attacked Poland, starting World War II. Do not sign the Soviet Union a treaty that Hitler would have done, having England and France on one side, and the USSR on the other. Would you attack the Soviet Union in 1939? It is unlikely that in order to attack the USSR already in 1941 Germany it was necessary to get the potential of the whole of Europe, economic, military, human. The postponement of the war with the USSR gave Hitler the power of the whole conquered and mobilized Europe, we questionable acquisitions of hostile, flawed territories. In my humble opinion, the mistake was that the German national socialists saw an ally, not a potential enemy, whom the West created from Germany as an anti-USSR. Naturally, this is only my personal opinion, my regret for the losses that my country suffered in the war with the Nazis. Perhaps they could be less.
            1. badens1111
              badens1111 15 November 2017 15: 09
              +6
              Quote: Per se.
              In my humble opinion, the mistake was that the German National Socialists saw an ally, not a potential enemy, which the West created from Germany as an anti-USSR

              Colleague, where did you get that Stalin saw at least some ally in Nazi Germany ??
              The fact that Hitler’s Germany would be an enemy, it became clear immediately from the moment Hitler seized power, all relations in the military sphere were curtailed, and the relations of trade, WHY THE PRAGMATISM of the USSR, was perceived as, supposedly, cooperation, and the same WEST, until 1944, as something normal? Who put the entire industry of the Reich, on whose pennies? England and America, so that Stalin was short-sighted, didn’t understand this, who are being raised against us? He saw, took the measure, prepared for war.
              Diplomacy with the Reich does not mean any, even distant, allied relations.
              The West fed Germany Czechoslovakia, and the West fed Poland, all for one, to bring a predator to the borders of the USSR, what is the alliance with Germany from the USSR ?? Well, what was written in Hitler’s little book, Mein Kampfe, Stalin knew perfectly well.
              Quote: Per se.
              Perhaps they could be smaller

              Could. If it weren’t for Western policy.
              1. Per se.
                Per se. 15 November 2017 16: 31
                +2
                Quote: badens1111
                where did you get that Stalin saw at least some ally in Hitler Germany ??
                It makes no sense to recall the statements of Joseph Vissarionovich about the brave deeds of the German national socialists to the rest of “hat Europe”, it is enough that the Wehrmacht entered Poland from the west, and the Red Army from the east. Could the Soviet Union to send troops to Poland, as a liberator, as an ally, slamming the Nazis in their bud? Will say that we were not ready for war? And the Germans were ready? The Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe in 1939 and 1941 are two big differences, not only quantitatively, but also, most importantly, in terms of combat experience. Getting poor, nodding at his orphan and wretchedness, did not respect himself, the Red Army had experience for that period in the same Spain, and according to Hassan with Khalkhin Gol, there was a better commanding staff than by the 1941 year. The fact that they disgraced Finland in 1940 a year, hoping for an easy victory, is not an indicator of our weakness, but an indicator of the same leadership miscalculations. In terms of overall power, the air force and ground forces of the Soviet Union exceeded the capabilities of the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe, just as our mobilization potential was incomparably higher than Hitler could squeeze in 1939 year. Do not forget that the French and the British were against the Germans. What gave in the end a "cunning plan"? The old border was moved, but a new one, in a hostile territory, was not equipped. In addition, the line of defense of the old border was more convenient, especially given the fortifications, better known as the Stalin Line. Our humiliations against the Germans, when it is impossible to “resist provocations,” and to believe rumors of a “German attack”, led to the June 1941 pogrom of the year. Everything that was created in terms of training, including thousands of new tanks and aircraft, was lost, which, together with the huge losses of personnel, allowed the Germans to reach Moscow and the Volga, seize the Crimea, go to the Caucasus. So, think if Nazism is a disease, would it have been better for Dr. Stalin to treat him at the very beginning, not bringing the 1941 of the year to a relapse in June, with his “metastases” across Europe, to everything, getting confused with the diagnosis and delaying treatment ? If we do not draw conclusions from history, we will repeat our mistakes, creating new "cunning plans" and flirting with new crafty allies, created again as anti-USSR, now anti-Russia ...
                1. badens1111
                  badens1111 15 November 2017 19: 07
                  +4
                  Quote: Per se.
                  The Wehrmacht entered Poland from the west, and the Red Army from the east. Could the Soviet Union send troops into Poland as a liberator, as an ally, slamming the Nazis in their bud?

                  The first, the Union entered a territory in which there was no longer a STATE, the so-called Rulers of proud Psheks. Ran away sparkling with heels to Romania, abandoning the country, the second. The troops reached the Curzona line and not a meter further, that is, the Union returned to itself that. pansky Poland was torn away, he returned what they cried out with such cries, saying that they had lost everything. Dancing dances with tambourines is a certain company of patented lies.
                  To enter and fight with Germany ... then, having received the front GERMANY, ENGLAND and France in the few waiting but then as a hyena joined the States, Stalin did not allow this then and would hardly have done otherwise. The reality took place as it took place.
                  Third, without picking up the Western regions of Ukraine and Belarus, look at the map under whatever conditions they were met on June 22, 1941.
                  Quote: Per se.
                  The Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe in 1939 and 1941 are two big differences, not only quantitatively, but also, most importantly, in terms of combat experience. Being naughty, nodding at his orphan and wretchedness, not respecting himself, the Red Army at that time had experience in the same Spain, and in Hassan with Khalkhin Gol, there was a better command structure than by 1941.

                  No that's not true.
                  Quote: Per se.
                  They moved the old border, but they didn’t equip the new border on hostile territory. In addition, the line of defense of the old border was more convenient, especially given the fortifications better known as the "Stalin Line". Our humiliation to the Germans, when it is impossible to "succumb to provocations", and to believe the rumors about the "German attack", led to the pogrom in June 1941.

                  And this is half true.
                  We didn’t have time to create an SD network, yes, but would you like the Union’s industry to be buried in the millions of tons of rolled metal, concrete, timber in the form of bunkers by 1941, and you don’t need to build other factories, factories, MTS?
                  The old line of fortifications, it played a role, somewhere bad, somewhere excellent, in Karelia and no more.
                  Quote: Per se.
                  Everything that was created in terms of preparation, including thousands of new tanks and planes, was lost, which, together with huge losses of personnel, allowed the Germans to reach Moscow and the Volga, capture the Crimea, and enter the Caucasus

                  And? Maybe we’ll start a debate about the role of the Western Front and its disaster, and who is to blame for this? Read Martirosyan .. there are enough documents describing why this happened, with the collapse of the Western Front, the catastrophe of Kiev and beyond.

                  Quote: Per se.
                  Well, think, if Nazism is a disease, wouldn’t it be better for Dr. Stalin to treat him at the very beginning, not leading to a relapse in June 1941, with his "metastases" throughout Europe, to everything, getting confused with the diagnosis and delaying treatment ?

                  In study the issue, negotiations with the British and French, and only then give out recipes. And what happened, so REALITY took place as it took place, and not according to your wishes after 70 years.
                  The Germans were laughing very hard when they discovered at the headquarters of the battered French army bombing plans of Baku, by the Angles and the Franks .. In 1939.
                  Quote: Per se.
                  If we do not draw conclusions from history, we will repeat our mistakes, creating new "cunning plans" and flirting with the new crafty allies, created again as anti-USSR, now anti-Russia ...

                  Well, everything .. you have completely confused and mixed everything up .. politics is not a game of drinking, sometimes the desires do not coincide with the possibilities and force you to make immediate compromises and agreements in order to achieve a favorable situation.
                  Stalin succeeded, England. USA, did not fight with us, but against Germany.
                  1. Per se.
                    Per se. 16 November 2017 05: 59
                    +1
                    I must immediately emphasize that I am not here as a “prosecutor”, and all my words are only assumptions, to which I have heard nothing new for myself. It is much easier to defend the obvious, already happened, than to bother with alternatives. Nevertheless, with all your iron arguments, the Finns became our enemies, the transfer of the border did not rule out the blockade of Leningrad, the losses of the Baltic Fleet at the crossing to Kronstadt from the Baltic states left, Western Ukraine and Western Belarus and Bessarabia also did not strongly move the Germans away from the Volga and the Caucasus by adding problems and new internal enemies before the war. Strengthening the old line of defense, instead of its conservation and dismantling, is more economical than creating and arranging new frontiers. Political multi-moves quite allow in the history other options, intrigues, alliances and pressure for their own interests. Yes, it happened, what happened. With all due respect to you, I heard myself could say. We will assume that the difference of opinions is rather a benefit than a harm, especially since, as I believe, you are also in favor of the Soviet Union and the socialist model of the development of society.
                    1. IS-80_RVGK2
                      IS-80_RVGK2 16 November 2017 08: 39
                      +4
                      Quote: Per se.
                      Finns became our enemies

                      Were they friends? Did not the Finns constantly arrange border conflicts? Are they the first to start two wars?
                      Quote: Per se.
                      border transfer did not rule out the blockade of Leningrad

                      If there was no transfer, it would be even worse. And at that time Leningrad was an important industrial city, and its loss would have severely affected the country's industrial potential.
                      In general, all these arguments about the matter could be better; they are all ex-post. From the category I know where I’ll fall and there I lay the straws. You are not knowing the future, try to choose the right solution. smile
                      1. Per se.
                        Per se. 16 November 2017 13: 19
                        0
                        Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                        Were they friends? Did not the Finns constantly arrange border conflicts? Are they the first to start two wars?
                        How, then, Makar, that having started a war, breaking the Mannerheim line, pushing the frontier, we did not achieve a result according to which the Finns would no longer fight with us like, for example, after the 1944 year? What then prevented the entire territory from being completely returned, as was the case in the Russian Empire? "Not knowing the future" ... The future is being created from the work of today’s and the plans of yesterday’s. Above, dear Vlad (badens1111), expressed almost mentor tone "Well, everything .. you are finally confused and mixed up .. the policy is not a game of chapaya"... It's not me who messed up, all the confusion happens when there is no clear understanding of who is friend, who is enemy, and who is like that. Played with the Nazi" friends ", outsmarted themselves, and that's what happened. Lie to himself you don’t need to be, and don’t be shy to understand the factors of geopolitics, vital national interests, then there will be no half measures and half truths. Is there life on Mars, is there life on Mars, are Nazis the antipode of communists, a fierce enemy. When World War II began it was necessary to enter Poland on the side of England and France, yes to lead Hitler, and not to organize joint parades in Brest. It would be a different story, and even if the end of the Third Reich, as God prescribed, was in May 1945, we would have fewer casualties and half of the country would not lie in ruins.
                      2. IS-80_RVGK2
                        IS-80_RVGK2 16 November 2017 13: 36
                        +2
                        Quote: Per se.
                        Do not lie to yourself

                        So do not lie to yourself.
                        Quote: Per se.
                        Played with the Nazi "friends"

                        You didn’t confuse us for an hour with those who shared Czechoslovakia in Munich? But this is oh, England and France.
                        Quote: Per se.
                        When the Second World War began, our leadership had to enter Poland on the side of England and France, to crush Hitler

                        And you need to stop smoking fun grass. From her you have a complete confusion in your head. And a misunderstanding, for example, of the need to balance desires with possibilities.
      2. To be or not to be
        To be or not to be 15 November 2017 10: 48
        +5
        Aw. Which preventive is not Finland
        All of Europe was preparing to jump into the USSR.
        Since 1928, Stalin has already talked about preparing a war of the imperialists of the West against the country of the Soviets. Read his reports at party congresses, clearly and simply
        In 1932 (?) Work began on preparing the economy and the country for war. New enterprises were created in the Urals and beyond the Urals. mines etc.
        Now .that also offer proactive throughout the barbarized Europe? However!
        1. badens1111
          badens1111 15 November 2017 11: 51
          +6
          Quote: To be or not to be
          But!

          You don’t confuse me with Olga. I know all this very well.
          Quote: To be or not to be
          Since 1928, Stalin has already spoken about the preparation of the war of the imperialists of the West against the Land of Soviets.

          Is that not true?
          I emphasize - we are talking about the likely military confrontation between Soviet Russia and the coalition of Poland and Romania (plus the Baltic Limitrophs). If serious players, France and Great Britain were drawn into the war (which in 1927 was quite probable, the proletarian USSR with its “world revolution” at that time, he really "sat in the liver" with the bourgeoisie), the chances of the USSR generally tended to zero! Compared with France, the military industry of the USSR in 1927 had the capacity to produce combat aircraft 7 times lower, for tanks - 20 times, for divisional and corps artillery - 3 times, for machine guns - 2 times, for rifle cartridges - in 7 times, for artillery shots - 5 times lower.

          And you say - was industrialization needed ... http: //usovski.livejournal.com/2
          214.html
          Quote: To be or not to be
          In 1932 (?) Work began on preparing the economy and the country for war. New enterprises were created in the Urals and beyond the Urals. mines etc.

          But you should have done nothing and in 1941, give up? Do you even understand what you are writing about?
          Quote: To be or not to be
          Now .that also offer proactive throughout the barbarized Europe? However!

          These are your speculations. I have not written such a thing.
        2. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 15 November 2017 12: 21
          +3
          Quote: To be or not to be
          Aw. Which preventive is not Finland
          All of Europe was preparing to jump into the USSR.
          Since 1928, Stalin has already talked about preparing a war of the imperialists of the West against the country of the Soviets. Read his reports at party congresses, clearly and simply
          In 1932 (?) Work began on preparing the economy and the country for war. New enterprises were created in the Urals and beyond the Urals. mines etc.
          Now .that also offer proactive throughout the barbarized Europe? However!

          Which, what - aviation on airfields, artillery for concentrating troops and tank wedges forward)))
          On the good summer roads of Europe, bypassing the strong centers of resistance.
          And there would be fewer losses and the enemy would be kept at maximum time on foreign territory.
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 15 November 2017 15: 04
            +4
            Quote: Krasnodar
            Which, which - by aviation at aerodromes

            Already tried - June 25-26 in Finland. Result: at first, reconnaissance missed half of the airfields, and then the aviation did not find most of the designated targets.
            And the pulp is that German airfields in the border area are empty. Aviation on them will appear only a day or two before the attack. And for work on distant airfields, the Red Army Air Force bombers have no cover - the combat radius of I-16 is only 150-170 km. The same raid on Finnish airfields showed what happens to naked bombers.
            Quote: Krasnodar
            troop concentration art

            How will we take out the artillery - in most divisions of thrust per 1 division per regiment? And how to mask from the Germans the transfer of artillery to the border at a speed of 3-5 km / h?
            Quote: Krasnodar
            tank wedges forward

            And we get Hay-Lepel. Or borderland-41. For without trucks for infantry and special tractors for artillery MK on the march will stratify into tanks, infantry with artillery and rear. And again, attacks will go naked tanks and the search for at least some kind of fuel for the tanks.
            Oh yes, the range of the T-34 at one gas station is about 180 km. The real range of serial vehicles in March 1941, not tabular. Moreover, the mechanic’s range, and not the drill crews, who for the most part saw the tank only from the outside. For training T-34s in four border districts - no more than 50. And manuals and manuals for new tanks are planned for publication in the third quarter of 1941.
            And one more thing: even in a reduced composition, the mechanized corps arr. 1940 does not fit into the authorized zone of the offensive and paralyzes the rear of the army to which it was attached with its equipment.
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 15 November 2017 16: 51
              +1
              Quote: Alexey RA
              Quote: Krasnodar
              Which, which - by aviation at aerodromes

              Already tried - June 25-26 in Finland. Result: at first, reconnaissance missed half of the airfields, and then the aviation did not find most of the designated targets.
              And the pulp is that German airfields in the border area are empty. Aviation on them will appear only a day or two before the attack. And for work on distant airfields, the Red Army Air Force bombers have no cover - the combat radius of I-16 is only 150-170 km. The same raid on Finnish airfields showed what happens to naked bombers.
              Quote: Krasnodar
              troop concentration art

              How will we take out the artillery - in most divisions of thrust per 1 division per regiment? And how to mask from the Germans the transfer of artillery to the border at a speed of 3-5 km / h?
              Quote: Krasnodar
              tank wedges forward

              And we get Hay-Lepel. Or borderland-41. For without trucks for infantry and special tractors for artillery MK on the march will stratify into tanks, infantry with artillery and rear. And again, attacks will go naked tanks and the search for at least some kind of fuel for the tanks.
              Oh yes, the range of the T-34 at one gas station is about 180 km. The real range of serial vehicles in March 1941, not tabular. Moreover, the mechanic’s range, and not the drill crews, who for the most part saw the tank only from the outside. For training T-34s in four border districts - no more than 50. And manuals and manuals for new tanks are planned for publication in the third quarter of 1941.
              And one more thing: even in a reduced composition, the mechanized corps arr. 1940 does not fit into the authorized zone of the offensive and paralyzes the rear of the army to which it was attached with its equipment.

              Explanatory analysis
              The question is as follows:
              Even if we started the war, knocking out half of the airfields (by the way, there was no bomb cover in the first month of the war), if we pulled up artillery beforehand (judging by Stalin’s order not to use heavy artillery on June 22), and without the T-34 (German tanks were by no means or almost no better than the T-26 and others), would there really be more casualties, but less sense than from the defense that Barbarossa initially had?
              I think that by concentrating the main blow on Ploiesti (oil, oil refineries), we would put a lot less people, save some of the aircraft and confuse the Germans cards, while simultaneously starting our mobilization.
              1. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA 15 November 2017 19: 50
                +1
                Quote: Krasnodar
                Even if we started the war, knocking out half of the airfields out of order (by the way, there was no bomb cover in the first month of the war),

                Half of half known. Best case scenario. Because the navigational training in the Red Army Air Force was so good that in the Special Purpose Air Force nine of our bombers were not only bombed at their own railway station. she also managed to miss her with all the bombs.
                You look at rkka.ru the level of training of the crews of districts - 80-90% can work only during the day in simple weather conditions.
                Quote: Krasnodar
                (by the way, there was no cover for bombers in the first month of the war)

                Yeah ... 1 mtap KBF showed very well - how it ends.
                In total, for the bombing of the troops being transported, the Baltic aviation made 99 sorties of attack aircraft (including 55 on DB-3). Of this number, we lost 34 bombers, 18 of which were DB-3.

                Quote: Krasnodar
                if we pulled up artillery in advance (judging by Stalin’s order of June 22 not to use heavy artillery, she was there),

                To tighten, we would tighten. But we couldn’t provide either maneuver or artillery supplies.
                Quote: Krasnodar
                and without the T-34 (German tanks were by no means or almost nothing better than the T-26 and other)

                Blessed is he who believes ... the majority of German armor-clasps as of June 1941 made their way to the full-time PTA Red Army only aboard and only from 150-300 m. But our LTs were sewn even with a mallet from all possible distances. I’m not talking about general wear and tear and catastrophic situation with the most necessary spare parts.
                By the way, according to the test results of the T-34 and the “three” (already discontinued model), our testers did not find a significant advantage in the T-34 except the gun’s caliber (which, however, was leveled out by the absence of armor-piercing 3 "shells). At the same time, the test reports Germans are full of requirements "to introduce in domestic tanks."
                Quote: Krasnodar
                would there really be more losses, but less sense than from the defense that was at first Barbarossa?

                The result would be one: at best, our formations would run into the line of defense along the Vistula River, which the Germans built before the summer of 1941, even with the involvement of the local population.
                And at worst ... at worst, we would get the same frontier battle, but on enemy territory. Because the same commanders, soldiers and structures would have to fight. And if in real life reconnaissance for three days saw tanks where they were not, and did not see where they were, then in the alternative the reconnaissance will be the same. And the same 6th MK likewise has every chance, instead of hitting the rear of German tank formations, to stumble upon the quickly built-up defense of two German PDs (which just had information about the advance of the MK) - and stick to it to zero. Because there really were no panzerdivies in that area - only infantry.
                Quote: Krasnodar
                I think that by concentrating the main blow on Ploiesti (oil, oil refineries), we would put a lot less people, save some of the aircraft and confuse the Germans cards, while simultaneously starting our mobilization.

                Yeah ... after which our forces in Romania fall into the boiler (1 TGr + infantry strikes from the north against the weakened KOVO forces - the most combat-ready units went to Romania). And we ourselves are helping the Germans comply with Directive 21 in terms of encircling and destroying the most combat-ready border formations.
                But how to fight without mobilization? How to fight a cropped, non-mobilized rifle division of the border region, if it has the same trucks only to ensure peaceful life at a permanent deployment point?
                1. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar 16 November 2017 10: 41
                  0
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  Quote: Krasnodar
                  Even if we started the war, knocking out half of the airfields out of order (by the way, there was no bomb cover in the first month of the war),

                  Half of half known. Best case scenario. Because the navigational training in the Red Army Air Force was so good that in the Special Purpose Air Force nine of our bombers were not only bombed at their own railway station. she also managed to miss her with all the bombs.
                  You look at rkka.ru the level of training of the crews of districts - 80-90% can work only during the day in simple weather conditions.
                  Quote: Krasnodar
                  (by the way, there was no cover for bombers in the first month of the war)

                  Yeah ... 1 mtap KBF showed very well - how it ends.
                  In total, for the bombing of the troops being transported, the Baltic aviation made 99 sorties of attack aircraft (including 55 on DB-3). Of this number, we lost 34 bombers, 18 of which were DB-3.

                  Quote: Krasnodar
                  if we pulled up artillery in advance (judging by Stalin’s order of June 22 not to use heavy artillery, she was there),

                  To tighten, we would tighten. But we couldn’t provide either maneuver or artillery supplies.
                  Quote: Krasnodar
                  and without the T-34 (German tanks were by no means or almost nothing better than the T-26 and other)

                  Blessed is he who believes ... the majority of German armor-clasps as of June 1941 made their way to the full-time PTA Red Army only aboard and only from 150-300 m. But our LTs were sewn even with a mallet from all possible distances. I’m not talking about general wear and tear and catastrophic situation with the most necessary spare parts.
                  By the way, according to the test results of the T-34 and the “three” (already discontinued model), our testers did not find a significant advantage in the T-34 except the gun’s caliber (which, however, was leveled out by the absence of armor-piercing 3 "shells). At the same time, the test reports Germans are full of requirements "to introduce in domestic tanks."
                  Quote: Krasnodar
                  would there really be more losses, but less sense than from the defense that was at first Barbarossa?

                  The result would be one: at best, our formations would run into the line of defense along the Vistula River, which the Germans built before the summer of 1941, even with the involvement of the local population.
                  And at worst ... at worst, we would get the same frontier battle, but on enemy territory. Because the same commanders, soldiers and structures would have to fight. And if in real life reconnaissance for three days saw tanks where they were not, and did not see where they were, then in the alternative the reconnaissance will be the same. And the same 6th MK likewise has every chance, instead of hitting the rear of German tank formations, to stumble upon the quickly built-up defense of two German PDs (which just had information about the advance of the MK) - and stick to it to zero. Because there really were no panzerdivies in that area - only infantry.
                  Quote: Krasnodar
                  I think that by concentrating the main blow on Ploiesti (oil, oil refineries), we would put a lot less people, save some of the aircraft and confuse the Germans cards, while simultaneously starting our mobilization.

                  Yeah ... after which our forces in Romania fall into the boiler (1 TGr + infantry strikes from the north against the weakened KOVO forces - the most combat-ready units went to Romania). And we ourselves are helping the Germans comply with Directive 21 in terms of encircling and destroying the most combat-ready border formations.
                  But how to fight without mobilization? How to fight a cropped, non-mobilized rifle division of the border region, if it has the same trucks only to ensure peaceful life at a permanent deployment point?

                  I agree with all your arguments - only Germans and Romanians would have suffered significantly greater losses, and the upcoming 1941 Red Army would have been more effective than stunned by the German strike in June.
                  1. Alexey RA
                    Alexey RA 16 November 2017 11: 18
                    +1
                    Quote: Krasnodar
                    I agree with all your arguments - only Germans and Romanians would have suffered significantly greater losses, and the upcoming 1941 Red Army would have been more effective than stunned by the German strike in June.

                    Not sure. For people, states and technology will remain the same as in real life.
                    Here's what we have to carry out a hypothetical attack:
                    "REPORT TO THE COMMISSIONER OF DEFENSE OF THE USSR MARSHAL OF THE SOVIET UNION Comrade Timoshenko S.K. ON THE RESULTS OF THE BATTLE PREPARATION OF THE TROOPS OF THE WEST SPECIAL MILITARY DISTRICT FOR THE WINTER PERIOD 40/41 ACADEMIC YEAR."

                    ... in the "Online Training" section. "Over the past 4 months, the District carried out the following activities to prepare the senior command and staff:" (a list of events on two pages) and the following phrase crowns all this:
                    "As a result of all these activities, the operational training of senior officers significantly increased и evaluated mediocre."

                    Then everything is no less beautiful.
                    "Infantry.
                    .
                    Conclusion: the units and formations of the district, fulfilling your requirement to co-ordinate companies and battalions quite ready for simple combat missions"

                    "Preparation of mortar units and units mediocreexcept 24 omb, the preparation of which bad. Preparation of 45 and 76 artillery regiments mediocre.
                    .
                    The conducted artillery firing and viewing exercises showed that the division’s artillery of the District was prepared for combat missions in the main types of combat mediocre.
                    .
                    Training regiments ARGK mediocre, with the exception of 311 dads and 318 hap RGKs, the preparation of which bad."

                    © kris-reid
                    Even with mobilization, there is no guarantee of success. It is enough to recall the Seno-Lepel battle: there is no surprise anymore, the mechanized corps and rifle divisions are mobilized - and as a result, the Germans simply fetter our formations with part of their forces and, bypassing them, break into Vitebsk.
                    Moreover, the surprise of a preemptive strike is unlikely to be achieved - the territory of the USSR 70-100 km from the border was "transparent" for the Germans.
  12. Tired
    Tired 15 November 2017 09: 08
    +8
    “I want to defend Soviet history from scolding” - for a person who wants to defend Soviet history, she is too actively distorting it. Monarchist Stalin against demonic Lenin is now a defense of history.
  13. kartalovkolya
    kartalovkolya 15 November 2017 09: 11
    +1
    Stalin, repression, etc. etc., nothing more than a cheating device of “Western civilization”, and in confirmation of my thoughts I want to remind all my colleagues what “communism” is and who it was invented by the same Western community and directed against Russia. After all, the "ghost of communism" began to wander not in Russia, but in Europe, and only then it was successfully reoriented to Russia. Remember, at least the words of the founder of this outrage Karl Marx about us Slavs-Russians, but he openly called us "... fertilizer for the German (western) civilization ... " All these historical and literary "vysyers" are no more or less ordinary fooling peoples, in the hope of illiteracy and lack of memory!
  14. urman
    urman 15 November 2017 09: 24
    +4
    Finally, it was Lenin's national policy and the division of the country on a national-territorial basis that became a time bomb that exploded in the 1991 year. By the way, the project of Stalin was not so radical - he proposed to make all the republics part of the Russian Federation. Lenin and Trotsky, in their maximalism, insisted on the USSR, so that later in the course of the world socialist revolution, "socialist" France, Germany, etc. would join it.
    I think that against the backdrop of sheer reverence for Lenin, the special hatred of the West and our Westerners for Stalin is not due to his contribution to the atrocities, which, of course, took place. The fact is that Stalin was completely free from worship of Western history and saw through and through all the plans of his Western partners, knew how to beat them. Therefore, he was demonized in the West not for repressions, where he was not the first, but for the creation of a new great power on the place of trampled Russia, turning the country into a geopolitical force equal to the whole West, an obstacle in its path. \\\\\\\\ \\\\
    I always read with interest Natalia Alekseevna’s interview, I am impressed by her not-so-so-so-opinion about our History, this is our story.
    And as for the Leninist Guard, I still had it during perestroika, there were questions that I shared at someone's meeting, after which I became just a personal enemy of our party organizer laughing and quickly re-elected with his help from the post of Komsomol.
    1. badens1111
      badens1111 15 November 2017 10: 38
      +4
      You wrote nonsense. Full tracing paper from the Yakovlevsky agitprop.
      Quote: urman
      I always read with interest Natalia Alekseevna’s interview, I am impressed by her not-so-so-so-opinion about our History, this is our story.

      Well, well .. her "impartiality" is very, very doubtful.
    2. To be or not to be
      To be or not to be 15 November 2017 11: 47
      +4

      Only in an empire of the Russian type were peoples and small nationalities preserved. And those who did not even have a written language received it and got their culture.
      Empires of the West acted differently. They did not need indigenous peoples. Example, America and the formation of the US state- There were several million indigenous hundreds of thousands left (400 thousand?). Yes, and those on the reservation
      Regarding the national politics and events of the 90s. He smiled .. Here are completely different reasons (see the results of the voting of the republics to preserve the Union)
  15. Yuri Guliy
    Yuri Guliy 15 November 2017 10: 35
    +3
    At first I taught history, where Trotsky is a traitor to the revolution and a bloodsucker, and Lenin and Stalin are our heroic leaders.
    Then the thesis 'theses' about the bloodsuckers Trotsky, Stalin, and the great humanist Lenin with faithful Leninist Khrushchev were the correct answer in the exams.
    Now the theme of the bloodsuckers of Trotsky, Lenin, the idiot of Nikita and the great statesman Stalin is being promoted.
    It seems that all of the above are no different from each other.
    1. badens1111
      badens1111 15 November 2017 11: 52
      +6
      Quote: Yuri Guliy
      It seems that all of the above are no different from each other.

      That is, you do not give your intellect of labor to figure out who is valuable to the country and who is the direct traitor to the country? Sadly .. propaganda gives its result
  16. Ural resident
    Ural resident 15 November 2017 11: 27
    +2
    Finally, I saw sound reasoning - such a rarity in our time.
    Well done Narochnitskaya, - we would have thought more people like that.
    I can almost agree with everything. It’s time to leave our story as it is. But conclusions must be drawn, consolidated in ideology, education and at the state level, to mark the red line in domestic politics and not make the same mistakes anymore
  17. Gardamir
    Gardamir 15 November 2017 11: 31
    +8
    -When were Pushkin killed?
    - In the year 37
    -That is reptile Stalin and reached out to Pushkin.

    Yes, a joke, but it shows well the idiocy of those who blame JV Stalin for everything. Naturally, the current government will not be responsible for the chaos of the 90s and the ongoing mess. What are the homeless now gone? Hospitals are being built. Yes, and there is no patriotism now. Because patriotism in the background we are good, because America is bad, this is not patriotism. Patriotism is when everyone is good, but we are still better.
  18. Sotskiy
    Sotskiy 15 November 2017 11: 44
    +9
    Narochnitskaya in her repertoire: We will not deny the achievements of the USSR, because it is fraught with consequences, and they are beneficial to us, but in general the regime was terrible and terrible, "enslaving" the family of peoples of a huge country into slavery. The "bloody regime" so "enslaved" including Natalya Narochnitskaya, whose biography was predetermined by family interests, that she entered MGIMO at the faculty of international relations. Five years later, she graduated with honors and defended her thesis, continues to work at IMEMO first as a junior and then as a senior researcher. From 1982 to 1989, he has been working in New York at the UN secretariat in New York, and again "contrary to the bloody regime" ...
    As these "alternative" visions of history, ordered by political "expediency", are already sick of it!
  19. vladimirvn
    vladimirvn 15 November 2017 11: 47
    +4
    Gref with board members (10 people) for 9 months of 2017 received 1 yard for labor (in 2016 - 3,5 billion
    1. mat-vey
      mat-vey 17 November 2017 16: 48
      +1
      It will be interesting whether when statistics on the death of how many people these profits are based ...
  20. Altona
    Altona 15 November 2017 11: 57
    +6
    Quote: Varyag_0711
    So Natalya Alekseevna, with many of your theses in this article, I fundamentally disagree, excuse me!

    -------------------------------------
    I also disagree with the article. I agree with the nature of the article, I cannot agree with the many nuances in her vision. The theme of "repression" is already so entangled that it overlaps the rest.
  21. Dead duck
    Dead duck 15 November 2017 12: 11
    11
    She’s all cunning ...
    it’s kind of not against ... all the bad ...
    but the communists are still especially bad.
    and again verbiage ... like all Russophobes and liberals negative
  22. faiver
    faiver 15 November 2017 13: 36
    +3
    Madame contradicts herself in the article ... so by ...
  23. BAI
    BAI 15 November 2017 13: 45
    +3
    Good objective assessment. No going to extremes: red is good, white is bad, or vice versa. And truth, as you know, lies in the middle between extreme points of view.
  24. Mar.Tirah
    Mar.Tirah 15 November 2017 13: 51
    +3
    Quote: Varyag_0711
    They shot schoolgirls and engineers say ... And they shot a lot?

    She did not study history well. Judging by the statements, she knew from her father that the Bolsheviks had stuck tablets. They were Bolsheviks. They went and shot everyone in a row. But I forgot to remind why the Cheka was created? What would destroy in the first place such "Bolshevik revolutionaries", whom the Mensheviks armed, and the Provisional Government?
    1. Dead duck
      Dead duck 15 November 2017 14: 28
      +9
      Quote: Mar. Tira
      She studied history poorly

      this is not a bad study of history ... this is a classic "gag" on the basis of "but a neighbor or a familiar grandmother said." And at this level, they discuss others (history) and still try to prove and condemn something. request
  25. Falcon5555
    Falcon5555 15 November 2017 14: 11
    0
    it was the Bolshevik revolution and doctrine that directly prescribed and predetermined the repressive period in which the Leninist and Stalinist stages were
    The whole article is based on this, and this is complete nonsense. The doctrine did not prescribe anything like this (although it is not sugar). The reasons for the Stalinist repressions in the banal struggle for personal power and life, and for concealing previously committed crimes - destroying competitors - by destroying witnesses, i.e., increasingly cynical and massive crimes. The lady is utter nonsense.
  26. fider
    fider 15 November 2017 14: 39
    +5
    Natalia Narochnitskaya: - I must say right away - I'm not a Stalinist.
    I do not believe. All communists are Stalinists, but not all of them stick out.
    1. mat-vey
      mat-vey 17 November 2017 16: 44
      +1
      Quote: fider
      All communists are Stalinists, but not all of them stick out.

      And A. Yakovlev is the same?
  27. Altona
    Altona 15 November 2017 15: 08
    +3
    Quote: BAI
    Good objective assessment. No going to extremes: red is good, white is bad, or vice versa. And truth, as you know, lies in the middle between extreme points of view.

    -----------------------------
    The truth is as follows. The Bolsheviks were not such a globally huge party as the CPSU in recent years with 17 million members, they were marginal and not very numerous (several thousand people), but a decisive party with a clear program for overcoming the country from the crisis into which the tsar dragged the country, and then the liberals . The country quickly went into anarchy and Socialist Revolutionaries, anarchists, all kinds of radicals, nationalists and simply unprincipled armed people walked through its expanses. Do not forget that the white-furry citizen Romanov, who until March 1917 was "the master of the Russian land and the anointed king" waged a rather bloody war with the mobilization of the mass of the male population, which he had to arm quite well. Therefore, dividing the terror into “red” and “white”, without taking into account the general anarchy in a torn country, is somehow incorrect.
    According to the article itself, taking into account the realities experienced by many of us and especially the beginning of the 90s, today it is clearly visible that in the country under the slogan “for all good versus all bad things”, a counter-revolution took place. It occurred in the capitals and with the forces of only thousands of 50 people, who imposed their will on the remaining 200 million adults then. I considered Narochnitskaya to be a more patriotic historian. It turns out no, she, like Poklonskaya, like RVIO, is striving for a Black-Hundred point of view.
  28. Altona
    Altona 15 November 2017 15: 14
    +2
    Quote: Falcon5555
    The reasons for the Stalinist repressions in the banal struggle for personal power and life, and for concealing previously committed crimes - destroying competitors - by destroying witnesses, that is, increasingly cynical and massive crimes. The lady is utter nonsense.

    -------------------------------
    Were the repressions just Stalinist or were they the repressions of the victorious revolutionaries who did not find themselves in the peaceful life of the party leaders? Are the repressions only executions and camps?
  29. NordUral
    NordUral 15 November 2017 16: 26
    +7
    It is time to restore the trampled name of Stalin and the slandered Soviet period.
  30. 1536
    1536 15 November 2017 16: 41
    +1
    It is a pity that the English writer J. Swift did not write a final chapter in his book "Gulliver's Travels", in which he would describe events in those countries and places where Gulliver was and where he left. Well, it was necessary to start with the Liliputians, who condemned Gulliver in absentia for an attempt on their statehood and the destruction of a large number of Lilliputians, as well as the inhabitants of Blefusku. They would, of course, have been sentenced to death by a "scoundrel." Swift did not forget about the famous Laputa and the Laputian Academy of Sciences with its "outstanding scientists." Already they would have brought the base under Gulliver’s stay in their venerable state, declaring him as unworthy and criminal.
    Either the grandchildren and great-grandchildren of the Bolshevik-tsarist leaders "opened" the chests of their grandfathers and foolishly threw out the lids, or it is beneficial for someone every day and hour to remind the citizens of Russia of what "crimes" their entire past history has been indicated. And in this regard, like any inveterate criminal who has been released, these same citizens cannot have a normal life, because no one in the world believes in correction, everyone is afraid and despised. Do not return to Liliput directly, because the case has already been “sewn up," the verdict has long been ready. You can’t imagine it. And I want to send all these writers, explainers and scientists to some Laputian or Liliput farm to catch exotic butterflies.
  31. andrej-shironov
    andrej-shironov 15 November 2017 17: 38
    +7
    Narochnitskaya is simply trying to "instill" in us the idea that revolution is bad! This is the message of the Kremlin and the oligarchs transmitted through Narochnitskaya for us !. Therefore, the article evokes a sense of cognitive dissonance when, on the one hand, we seem to be defending the USSR and Stalin, and on the other hand, we are demonizing Lenin and the revolution. But! Without a revolution, there would have been no USSR or Stalin! Do not succumb to provocations. And, beware of Danish gifts-bringing ...
  32. The comment was deleted.
  33. Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 15 November 2017 18: 39
    +3
    Author: Moreover, I consider the Bolshevik revolution a tragedy of universal proportions and would prefer to see our history without it, without Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin.
    If A is said, then B. must be said.
    Without Kerensky (since the personages are events), there would have been no Lenin and Trotsky, today no one would have known them, and Stalin .....
  34. groks
    groks 15 November 2017 19: 26
    +3
    Something Natalya Alekseevna suffered. Neither Lenin nor Stalin arranged a change of power in the Republic of Ingushetia. And many thanks must be said to both of them, and even to Trotsky, for what they later created from the wreckage. We all would not be in the world. And Narochnitskaya too.
    It is curious - a quiet change of power until 1917 somewhere in the world was extremely rare. Poison, slaughtered ... monarchs, as it should. Then they cut out half the country quite easily. For 30 years they fought with themselves, or even 100! But that's just not the case with the USSR. It seems that if Lenin declared himself emperor, then everyone would have waved a hand and only smiled at the destruction of the predecessor with the whole family. Well, as expected, the norm can be said.
    1. mat-vey
      mat-vey 17 November 2017 16: 34
      0
      Quote: groks
      And many thanks must be said to both of them, and even to Trotsky


      دشمن دشمن من دوست من است - the enemy of my enemy is my friend .. during revolutions many unite, only the outcomes are different ...
      1. groks
        groks 17 November 2017 17: 56
        0
        Not in this case. Trotsky was correctly used. One can imagine the deception of the Germans from his concept of "No War, No Peace." And he persuaded ....
        1. mat-vey
          mat-vey 17 November 2017 17: 59
          0
          Quote: groks
          Trotsky was correctly used

          This is - the enemy of my enemy is my friend ...
  35. then
    then 15 November 2017 19: 43
    +1
    Transfusion of dirt from empty to empty.
  36. sabakina
    sabakina 15 November 2017 20: 40
    +5
    San Sanych,
    This is how you have to revel in order to perceive Lenin as a god? For me, this is a man who made it possible to live without thinking about tomorrow, without thinking about where to get money for this, for whom to give a bribe, and who can be sent. A revolution without blood and excesses in the field does not happen!
    1. San Sanych
      San Sanych 15 November 2017 21: 20
      +1
      Thank Stalin that he seized power from these ...
      1. badens1111
        badens1111 15 November 2017 21: 21
        +2
        Quote: San Sanych
        Thank Stalin that he seized power

        Stalin always said THANKS to Ilyich, for science.
        1. Dart2027
          Dart2027 15 November 2017 22: 17
          0
          Quote: badens1111
          Stalin always said

          Talking said something, the question is what he was thinking.
          1. badens1111
            badens1111 15 November 2017 22: 50
            +1
            Quote: Dart2027
            the question is what was thinking.

            And you do not ascribe your thoughts.
            Nowhere, you will not find what Stalin said to Lenin, no matter what the worst.
          2. mat-vey
            mat-vey 17 November 2017 16: 26
            0
            Quote: Dart2027
            Quote: badens1111
            Stalin always said

            Talking said something, the question is what he was thinking.

            So you read your thoughts, what does the long-dead people have to do with it?
            1. Dart2027
              Dart2027 17 November 2017 18: 08
              0
              Quote: mat-vey
              So you read thoughts
              No, I don’t know how. But if you think about it, then Stalin’s policy was as far from Lenin’s policy as was possible within the framework of communist ideology.
              1. mat-vey
                mat-vey 17 November 2017 18: 30
                +1
                Quote: Dart2027
                then Stalin’s policy was so far from Lenin’s policy

                What did Stalin introduce private ownership of the means of production?
                1. Dart2027
                  Dart2027 17 November 2017 19: 23
                  0
                  Quote: mat-vey
                  private ownership of funds

                  Quote: Dart2027
                  as far as possible within the framework of communist ideology
                  1. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 17 November 2017 19: 33
                    +1
                    But did Lenin mean that there was no communist ideology? Or should politics during the civil war not be different from peacetime policies when restoring the country?
                    1. badens1111
                      badens1111 17 November 2017 20: 12
                      0
                      Quote: mat-vey
                      But did Lenin mean that there was no communist ideology? Or should politics during the civil war not be different from peacetime policies when restoring the country?

                      All ... put the opponent in a corner. There is nothing to say.
                    2. Dart2027
                      Dart2027 18 November 2017 06: 52
                      0
                      Quote: mat-vey
                      But Lenin did not mean a communist ideology?

                      Lenin created the Comintern, and Stalin dismissed it.
                      Lenin created ... a system of union republics, and Stalin objected to the last (though later he didn’t begin to redo it, it wasn’t before)
                      Lenin wrote that "the NEP is serious and for a long time," and Stalin turned it down.
                      Is it not necessary to remind about where Stalin sent most of Lenin’s aides?
                      1. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 18 November 2017 06: 55
                        0
                        "Or should politics during the civil war not differ from peacetime policies in rebuilding a country?" - re-read ...
      2. badens1111
        badens1111 15 November 2017 22: 52
        +1
        Quote: San Sanych
        he

        Especially for you, a brief analysis of all kinds of gossip, at the expense of your statement, read Lenin. Well, read. Study and finally understand that you obviously read something, memorized and issue it here.
        Here are the links:

        http://bolshoyforum.com/forum/... (самая суть начинается после подзаголовка "Анализ исходных данных")

        http://arctus.livejournal.com/...
    2. dSK
      dSK 15 November 2017 22: 53
      +4
      Quote: sabakina
      revolutions without blood and excesses in the field DO NOT HAPPEN

      Improve the world in legal, legal ways. It is very difficult. Breaking does not build. "Evade evil and do good. " hi
      1. mat-vey
        mat-vey 17 November 2017 16: 31
        0
        Quote: dsk

        1
        dsk November 15, 2017 22:53 PM ↑ New
        Quote: sabakina
        revolutions without blood and excesses in the field DO NOT HAPPEN

        Improve the world in legal, legal ways. It is very difficult. Breaking does not build. "Evade evil and co-creation

        And you can donate children to organs, and transfer money to effective owners ..
    3. mat-vey
      mat-vey 17 November 2017 16: 29
      +2
      Quote: sabakina
      A revolution without blood and excesses in the field does not happen!

      Moreover, the steeper the "excesses" of the previous government, the more blood after the revolution ... well, people do not forget how they kept them for cattle .. like there - you will keep the people for it ... if he did ...
  37. LCA
    LCA 15 November 2017 22: 08
    +2
    In order for society not to live according to the principle “I love my homeland, I hate the state,” this state ideology should express the ideals of society, and not consumer, but moral and ethical, first of all, as the basis for the realization of consumer desires.
    --------------------
    There is no such state ideology in Russia, but not by virtue of the constitutional ban, but by the fact that representatives of state power see the people:
    • not fellow citizens who have the same dignity as they themselves,
    • a, the purpose of which is to be a “cheap labor resource”.
    ------------------------------------------
    As a result, the themes of justice and exploitation of “man by man” are excluded from public political discussions, and a hefty share of the ruling “elite” assesses the Great October Socialist Revolution as a crime and a mistake of history.
    In particular, in the Decree of the President of the Russian Federation “On the preparation and conduct of events dedicated to the 100th anniversary of the 1917 revolution in Russia”, the definitions “February Revolution”, “October Revolution”, “bourgeois-democratic revolution”, “socialist revolution” are not used at all: we are talking about one thing - a kind of "revolution of 1917 in Russia."
    ----------------------------------
    And without considering issues of justice and the exploitation of “man by man”, in principle, it is impossible to understand neither the causes of the 1917 revolutions, nor the history of the civil war, since its driving forces - the warring parties - were adherents of the ideals of the February bourgeois revolution, who sought to move from feudal-bourgeois methods exploitation of the common people to purely bourgeois ways of exploiting the same common people as a reproducible economic resource, on the one hand,

    and on the other hand, supporters of the ideals of the Great October Socialist Revolution, striving to move to a socio-economic system in which there is no place for the exploitation of "man by man" and, accordingly, there is no place for exploiters either.
    ----------------------------
    And revolution and civil war are an expression of the vital inconsistency of that domestic policy regarding people who are not satisfied with life, which was conducted by the ruling "elite" of the empire, headed by the king.
    -----------------------
    The special services of the USSR were formed by attracting to work:
    • at first (during their formation in the post-revolutionary era) - illiterate, but believing in the ideals of socialism and communism, with some admixture of more educated hypocrites - who, because of their class origin, had a higher level of education than the national average, but which had the ideals of socialism and communism were alien;

    • in a later period - those who received standard Soviet education, among whom were both idealists and hypocrites;

    • in an even later period - children and other relatives of older employees who for the most part saw in the service simply a prestigious place of work, and also - attracted those who caused interest for various reasons.
    ---------------------------
    All these people in all periods of the existence of the USSR special services did not undergo any systematic methodological training. There is no methodological training of the personnel base and personnel corps of the special services even today.
    In addition to them, initially, from the moment of their creation after 1917, the special services included carriers of various kinds of esoteric subcultures, which represented the periphery of various kinds of esoteric groups engaged in other affairs and who did not have time to personally participate in the work of special services. But they created and promoted their periphery to the special services in order to manipulate the "offices".
    ---------------------
    This kind of activity was expressed in the fact that the special services actively initiated and participated in Trotskyist repressions (now called "Stalinist"); and in post-Stalinist times, they actively suppressed the pro-communist opposition to the pseudo-communist dictatorship of the bureaucrats (Novocherkassk shooting - one of the most striking events of this kind), nurtured the liberal-bourgeois opposition (Solzhenitsyn and other perestroika and reform activists of the 1990s), which came to power as a result of perestroika.
  38. Assyrian
    Assyrian 16 November 2017 13: 01
    +1
    N. Narochnitskaya is a great clever girl!
  39. M. Michelson
    M. Michelson 18 November 2017 05: 51
    0
    Well, who else but she should argue about the demonization of the Soviet state!
    Lenin the executioner, Stalin "no worse than Lenin." About Marx-Engels, just keep quiet. And in general, just as the Bolsheviks came to power, so to the very end terror, terror and terror.
    what
    1. mat-vey
      mat-vey 18 November 2017 06: 57
      +1
      And what terror was there from 1941 to 1945 ... Democrats came, and they started to kill them, and in large numbers with whole divisions .. they tightened their nuts too - they didn’t leave their holidays or their days off and attacked on occasion ...
  40. Dart2027
    Dart2027 18 November 2017 06: 58
    0
    Quote: mat-vey
    "Or should politics during the civil war not differ from peacetime policies in rebuilding a country?" - re-read ...
    And what was the reason for the differences indicated offhand?
  41. VladVlad
    VladVlad 19 November 2017 13: 32
    0
    All those who destroyed innocent people, these lackeys of Stalin, Lenin, etc., must be convicted by an official court. Let posthumously, but on articles, in full! The descendants of these criminals should know that they came from a rotten seed and that their "star" relative is a real criminal and killer. To prohibit the descendants of these killers from pursuing a public and commercial career, to prohibit working in any position whatsoever. Only workers low-paying specialties, several generations! Let their relative, the murderer in the next world, understand that his descendants also pay for his sins. Justice must triumph!