Military Review

German media: Su-30CM American "Eagle" is not a competitor

178
The Su-30CM fighter is a really good car, but it is inferior in speed and combat load to the F-15E Strike Eagle, besides the Russian plane is not equipped with stealth technology, the German newspaper Die Welt writes. Article leads InoTV.




“Nesterov’s hinges, cobras — this is what the Military Space Forces boast of,” the material says.

Recently, the Russian Defense Ministry published a video that demonstrates the capabilities of the Su-30CM fighter - “this is the latest and most modern version of the popular Su-30 multi-role fighter,” the newspaper explains.

“Spectacular shots” confirm that Russian fighters are indeed able to perform the most complex aerobatic maneuvers. “Such an air maneuver, like a cobra, is completely able to execute only a few military fighters,” the author notes.

The new Su-30MM is able to pick up the speed of Mach 2. The fighter’s combat load is about 8 tons, and the maximum flight range is 3 thousand km, the newspaper continues, “however, the new Russian military jet airplane has a drawback - there are no masking elements”.

“Su-30CM is considered the answer to McDonnell Douglas’s American F-15E Strike Eagle. According to The Business Insider, this is the first Su-30 with thrust vector control, which makes it very manoeuvrable and easily manageable. The manufacturing company "Irkut" even talks about "super-maneuverability" in an attempt to attract customers. That's just the combat load of the F-15E more than the Su-30CM. In addition, the American fighter achieves the speed of Mach 2,5 and is equipped with “stealth” technology, ”concludes the publication.
Photos used:
http://www.globallookpress.com
178 comments
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  1. Uryukc
    Uryukc 8 November 2017 12: 40 New
    47
    German media: Su-30CM American "Eagle" is not a competitor

    1. Primoos
      Primoos 8 November 2017 12: 42 New
      28
      Consoled themselves, otherwise it is terrible to live in this world. And they do not need a loop, and other figures. Well, fly on the irons, since the figures are not capable.
      1. Uryukc
        Uryukc 8 November 2017 12: 44 New
        62
        Since F-15 are so good, they would have at least once won the Hindus in a training battle, and even better would have agreed to a training battle with ours.
        1. SPACE
          SPACE 8 November 2017 13: 35 New
          +5
          Quote: Uryukc
          Since F-15 are so good, they would have at least once won the Hindus in a training battle, and even better would have agreed to a training battle with ours.

          Here Kharchevsky claims that a pair of Su 27ub flew to the United States and had joint maneuvers with the Needles, although the Americans deny this.
          http://alternathistory.com/ispytano-v-ssha-i-ross
          ii-uchebnye-vozdushnye-boi-su-27-ub-protiv-f-15d-
          v-lengli
          1. Anatoly Voron
            Anatoly Voron 8 December 2017 20: 15 New
            +1
            Quite and all the same, they flew with full combat equipment, .. They flew to the base, they kissed Sushki, masturbated the control knobs, and ours say to them, “Well, girls, no photo machine guns, the battle is full Seriously, with the use of all weapons and amehas they immediately put them in leggings .. Moreover, our guys offered 4 F-15s, against 2 Dryers ..
        2. NEXUS
          NEXUS 8 November 2017 15: 12 New
          18
          Quote: Uryukc
          Since F-15 are so good, they would have at least once won the Hindus in a training battle, and even better would have agreed to a training battle with ours.

          And not only F-15, but also F18, F-22 (against the Malaysian SU-30) ... and as for the Indians, they even put MIG-21 Bison against the Eagles ..
          Time: 2004
          Location: a / b Gwalior, India
          Aircraft: F-15C with AN / APG-63 radar from the American side and MiG-21, MiG-27, Mirage-2000 from the Indian
          The format of the exercises: aerial battles of the Indian Air Force against the American.
          The result of the exercises: Hindus on the Mig-21 bison, using Israeli electronic warfare stations, interfered with the American F-15, broke into the melee zone, and, using their numerical advantages, often won.
          Conclusion: the MiG-21 bison in terms of combat effectiveness is not much inferior to the F-15C with the AN / APG-63 radar

          And why even against 21 there F-15 showed? wassat
          1. Igor Krasnov
            Igor Krasnov 17 February 2018 00: 26 New
            0
            nexus say
            1. Igor Krasnov
              Igor Krasnov 17 February 2018 00: 28 New
              0
              Nex Che is dead?
        3. Juborg
          Juborg 9 November 2017 01: 02 New
          13
          Here the most interesting thing about the "stealth" airplane from the 80s. Apparently powdered with powder. laughing
          1. valerij
            valerij 15 December 2017 23: 06 New
            0
            A plane is not even 80, this is an earlier instance ..
      2. LSA57
        LSA57 8 November 2017 13: 15 New
        +6
        Quote: Primoos
        Well, fly on irons, since they are not capable of figures.

        as they said at the dawn of aviation "pancake"
        1. NIKNN
          NIKNN 8 November 2017 14: 15 New
          17
          Quote: LSA57
          as they said at the dawn of aviation "pancake"

          Here they have deliberate misleading.
          That's just the combat load of the F-15E more than the Su-30SM. In addition, the American fighter reaches Mach 2,5 and is equipped with stealth technology, ”concludes the publication.
          Firstly, with its full combat load (I don’t know if the suspension units will be enough to load 11 tons), I doubt that he will be able to conquer supersonic. Secondly, stealth technologies besides paint aren’t from the word at all ... request The only thing he surpasses ours is the price. $ 100 million ($ 136 for the F-15SA)
          1. LSA57
            LSA57 8 November 2017 14: 25 New
            13
            Quote: NIKNN
            Secondly, stealth technologies besides paint aren’t from the word at all ...

            and even, as far as I know, it is invisible only in front. from other angles we can even see it.
            Well, somewhere I read the revelations of an American pilot. in your own words. our pilots in flight do not think the orb limits on aerobatics. American on the contrary, keep them in mind, which is what affects. that is, in this respect, ours are freer in choice. and this leads to an advantage
            1. NIKNN
              NIKNN 8 November 2017 14: 35 New
              20
              Quote: LSA57
              and even, as far as I know, it is invisible only in front.

              And in front we see perfectly. On it, only the coating was applied and the tanks were conframny (they seem to shine less) Well, how can an airplane with one of the largest EPRs be made stealth by paint?
              If in the 1980s F-15 aircraft had an EPR of more than 10 m2, then the modernized aviation complex has an EPR of 1-1.5 m2
              Yes, and then the EPR 1-1.5m2 is far from stealth, if they position the E22 F0.003 as 2mXNUMX and at the same time we also see it lol Positioned as an advertising stunt for woodpeckers ... sad
              1. Anatoly Rukavishnikov
                Anatoly Rukavishnikov 19 November 2017 21: 02 New
                0
                And we see radars from the 1948 issue from all sides.
            2. Nikolai Grek
              Nikolai Grek 9 November 2017 01: 33 New
              +4
              Quote: LSA57
              and even, as far as I know, it is invisible only in front. from other angles we can even see it.

              maybe they meant that it is invisible ... visually at a distance of about 500 km ??? !!! repeat repeat lol lol lol
              1. NIKNN
                NIKNN 9 November 2017 10: 20 New
                +9
                Quote: Nikolai Grek
                visually at a distance of about 500 km ??? !!

                Why don’t they know that we still give binoculars to a tablet with a card? laughing laughing laughing
          2. Vlad.by
            Vlad.by 8 November 2017 15: 32 New
            +5
            These same media confused Strike Eagle with Silent Eagle. Well, experts, what do you take.
            And so, yes, with an equal combat load, it is useless to compare the F-15 with the Su-30.
            1. NIKNN
              NIKNN 8 November 2017 15: 34 New
              +5
              Quote: Vlad.by
              confused Strike Eagle with Silent Eagle.

              This I noticed, only does not fundamentally change the situation. smile
          3. Nikolai Grek
            Nikolai Grek 9 November 2017 01: 32 New
            +3
            Quote: NIKNN
            The only thing he surpasses ours is the price. $ 100 million ($ 136 for the F-15SA)

            laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing good good
          4. Satanator
            Satanator 9 November 2017 02: 28 New
            +3
            alas, but superior in yet another, but most important - in quantity (((
          5. Anatoly Rukavishnikov
            Anatoly Rukavishnikov 19 November 2017 20: 48 New
            +2
            Yes, Americans have always PR their products. Only one piracy with a flight to the moon was worth what (it’s good that they didn’t think of showing how brave Americans flew to Mars, or even to the SUN !!!).
      3. andrewkor
        andrewkor 8 November 2017 13: 52 New
        10
        German pilots cried, passing MiG to Poland, to which they loved the 29th, what can we say about Su!
      4. Slovak
        Slovak 8 November 2017 14: 21 New
        +7
        They did not take into account the main thing: 1 Russian pilot = 5 American, or 8 German.
        1. Vladislav Bolshakov_2
          Vladislav Bolshakov_2 21 December 2017 00: 00 New
          0
          1 Russian = 10 Prussian pilots. And Prussian to all Germans - German!
    2. Maz
      Maz 8 November 2017 12: 44 New
      +4
      So what? Ordinary PR
      1. Burbon
        Burbon 8 November 2017 13: 07 New
        +6
        Quote: Maz
        So what? Ordinary PR

        what PR ???? belay - ordinary trolling !!!
      2. LSA57
        LSA57 8 November 2017 13: 17 New
        11
        Quote: Maz
        So what? Ordinary PR

        the most ridiculous, PR someone else's plane laughing nothing is left of his own. recently there was infa, the last submarine ruined laughing
    3. Finches
      Finches 8 November 2017 12: 45 New
      31
      The Germans write this, I think, from evil, experiencing a huge sense of their own inferiority - remembering that they once had superiority in this area, creating reactive messengers, having the most powerful Air Force in the world, but shaved everything, first to the Russian Yaks and Ilam, and then and generally lay down under the Yankees ... Fu, suckers! laughing
      1. Grandfather
        Grandfather 8 November 2017 12: 49 New
        +7
        battle with the application! one on one! -will never dare. Only scratch your tongues ...
        1. MoJloT
          MoJloT 8 November 2017 12: 58 New
          +4
          one on one now nothing is solved in general, this multifunctional complexes can only work effectively in conjunction with other means.
          1. Oznob
            Oznob 8 November 2017 14: 29 New
            +5
            Not at all. Ideally, it is not solved, but in practice it is still solved.
        2. weksha50
          weksha50 8 November 2017 14: 38 New
          +8
          Quote: Dead Day
          battle with the application! one on one! -will never dare. Only scratch your tongues ...


          We want, I think, not one will be found ...
          But with the Amers ... Well, what should be a reckless Yankee to go out against a Russian who was told that his plane is against Amers - is worthless?
          They do not know Russian nature and will never know ...
    4. The comment was deleted.
  2. 100502
    100502 8 November 2017 12: 43 New
    13
    I agree with the Germans in this case, now 2017 will not save somersaults from the rocket, now the main thing is who sees further and whose rocket is better and not all cobras, etc.
    1. Dimontius
      Dimontius 8 November 2017 12: 48 New
      +5
      But what is it like in movies you can’t dodge missiles? if released already means a sentence? a question without jokes, explain specialists please
      1. Elephant
        Elephant 8 November 2017 14: 16 New
        +5
        when maneuvering, the rocket will withstand much greater overloads than a pilot in an airplane. And aerobatics will not help ...
        1. raw174
          raw174 9 November 2017 06: 46 New
          +3
          Quote: Elephant
          when maneuvering, the rocket will withstand much greater overloads than a pilot in an airplane. And aerobatics will not help ...

          I am not special, but I think that it will not solve the resistance to overloads, but the reaction. If the pilot timely makes the right decision and maneuvers, the rocket will not be able to respond ...
          Maybe it’s wrong, of course, and someone more knowledgeable will correct it ...
          1. bodzu
            bodzu 12 November 2017 12: 00 New
            +3
            Long-range missiles have larger mass and lower strength. As a result, less maneuverability. So over maneuverability is far from superfluous. And so, get acquainted with the theory of machines and mechanisms and other useful knowledge.
        2. EvilLion
          EvilLion 13 November 2017 08: 32 New
          +3
          The rocket has more speed and, therefore, the radius, in addition, the rocket has fuel for seconds, it loses energy and maneuvers faster, the plane’s fuel can be considered infinite in the time frame of a missile attack, which saves energy, or even increases her.

          Medium-range missiles have not shown any ultra-high kill rates according to available data, they dodge from them more often than do not dodge.
    2. Finches
      Finches 8 November 2017 12: 51 New
      +4
      Better not to take off at all ... laughing
      1. gukoyan
        gukoyan 8 November 2017 15: 02 New
        +2
        About LTC, do not forget that, along with maneuvers, miracles can be done;)
    3. Scoun
      Scoun 8 November 2017 19: 37 New
      +6
      Quote: 100502
      I agree with the Germans in this case, now 2017 will not save somersaults from the rocket, now the main thing is who sees further and whose rocket is better and not all cobras, etc.

      What do you agree with?
      If you take, as you put it, “somersaults” and physics with the Doppler effect, then “somersaults” is the same thing on all counts .... if it was only somersaults, then why should there be heat traps?
      The totality of all the "arsenals" of protection, increase the chance of survival and not your way.

      - Why all this, running away from a rocket, you just get tired running. )))
      The eternal struggle of the shield and the sword.
    4. sir_obs
      sir_obs 8 November 2017 21: 12 New
      10
      just a twist. The rocket has a very short marching section, the rest of the rest it goes by inertia and if you have sufficient maneuverability, like our machines, then the attacking rocket simply can not follow the target, there will not be enough inertia to perform such a maneuver.
      And it is tested in practice.
      The bet on missiles and long-range aerial combat was already a ball, and it all ended with the fact that the guns were returned and the close air combat did not go away.
    5. Anatoly Rukavishnikov
      Anatoly Rukavishnikov 19 November 2017 21: 11 New
      +1
      About somersaults. During the war, our cornmen sometimes famously left the Messers. It circled around a tree, and the poor messer is already chasing after a ghost. lol
  3. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 8 November 2017 12: 44 New
    15
    The ESR is equally huge, that of the Su-30, that of the F-15.
    Around the same aircraft in all respects.
    1. svp67
      svp67 8 November 2017 12: 48 New
      +6
      Quote: voyaka uh
      Around the same aircraft in all respects.

      Yes, you sho?
      Quote: voyaka uh
      The ESR is equally huge, that of the Su-30, that of the F-15.

      Yes, you can not read sho? It is said that: "In addition, the American fighter reaches the speed of Mach 2,5 and is equipped with technology" stealth ""
      1. zivXP
        zivXP 8 November 2017 12: 55 New
        +4
        This is so that you could run away faster from Sushka as soon as she appears nearby.
    2. Finches
      Finches 8 November 2017 12: 51 New
      +3
      God's Comrade hi business says!
      1. Burbon
        Burbon 8 November 2017 13: 09 New
        +3
        Quote: Finches
        God's Comrade

        are those who crucified their god Christ ?? ...
        1. Finches
          Finches 8 November 2017 13: 11 New
          11
          As the Jews themselves say, these are our internal Jewish squabbles! Goyim do not understand! laughing
        2. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 8 November 2017 13: 32 New
          +6
          Quote: Burbon
          Quote: Finches
          God's Comrade

          are those who crucified their god Christ ?? ...

          )))))))
          Jews do not consider Jesus Gd
          Moreover, Gd is one for all
          Crucified jesus romans
          1. Burbon
            Burbon 8 November 2017 13: 33 New
            10
            Quote: Krasnodar
            Crucified jesus romans

            fool Hitler didn’t kill Jews personally .... they did ss, sd ..
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 8 November 2017 13: 49 New
              +4
              Quote: Burbon
              Quote: Krasnodar
              Crucified jesus romans

              fool Hitler didn’t kill Jews personally .... they did ss, sd ..

              And did the Jews order Pilate? ))))
              You have your own idea of ​​the hierarchy in the Roman Empire)))
              And the New Testament too :)
              1. Burbon
                Burbon 8 November 2017 14: 20 New
                +3
                Quote: Krasnodar
                And did the Jews order Pilate?

                Of course not lol ... Arabs. wassat ... after all, Jesus was harmless to the Romans ..
                of course the Jews insisted in the form of a court ... it was they
                1. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar 8 November 2017 16: 33 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Burbon
                  Quote: Krasnodar
                  And did the Jews order Pilate?

                  Of course not lol ... Arabs. wassat ... after all, Jesus was harmless to the Romans ..
                  of course the Jews insisted in the form of a court ... it was they

                  The followers of the Iroids, who had previously defeated the Hasmoneans (from the clan of David) in the Civil War due to the fact that they called the Romans, gave it to the Romans.
                  Not after the trial, but after the interrogation, secondly (to judge in Passover haram, without witnesses to the defense of haram and another 70 inconsistencies of what was described in the Gospel to the procedure of the Jewish court of that time)
                  He was surrendered as the Messiah - that is, the king of Judea from the family of David, who was supposed to free the Jews from the Romans (very harmless to them)
                  Pilate in his position, besides Jesus, two people who called themselves the Messiah slammed - this is a historical fact. :)
                  Everything else - let everyone believe what they want, I respect it - but we also know our religion, as well as history.
                  By the way, if Pilate wanted to spare Jesus, then in the future he would not have any problems for this.
          2. EvilLion
            EvilLion 13 November 2017 08: 34 New
            0
            Romans - who is this? Pilate? So the Jews demanded of him.
        3. Gml
          Gml 8 November 2017 14: 11 New
          +1
          Christ crucified?
          Grishka himself was destroyed and they say that the king is not real. The king is anointed after all.
        4. Grigory_78
          Grigory_78 16 December 2017 21: 50 New
          0
          Oh wei, I beg you! Have you forgotten that the New Testament is for the goyim? Kosher Jews recognize only the Old Testament, and there is no Jesus at all, if you did not know.
    3. edeligor
      edeligor 8 November 2017 12: 52 New
      +1
      Quote: voyaka uh
      The ESR is equally huge, that of the Su-30, that of the F-15.

      At exactly laughing At burghers PROGIB is not set off. Yes, but in general, why was this article needed ?!
    4. opus
      opus 8 November 2017 14: 42 New
      13
      Quote: voyaka uh
      The ESR is equally huge, that of the Su-30, that of the F-15.

      sho means "about"?
      1.Clean F-15C - frontal EPR more than 12 m ^ 2, fonyat OZ and the first stage of the compressor
      F-15-n., Well, according to the logic-30%, i.e. 8-9 m ^ 2
      If you take the F-15E-1 Silent Eagle (and he IS?), yes. there almost 3-5 m ^ 2:
      - RPM
      - hidden weapons bays,
      radar lockers, etc.
      2. ESR Su-27 (basic, clean), in that frontal projection is about 12 meters (so it is considered in the West, but they are mistaken), and the most "licked" of the Russian MiG-35 fighter jets has a frontal EPR around 5 meters.
      SU-30MKI approximately 7-8 m ^ 2
      3. About "about"
      Range radar with a passive response

      sqrt from EPR (EPO)
      sqrt (9) = 3
      sqrt (8) = 2,82
      it is quite significant
      Quote: svp67
      Yes, you can not read sho? It is said that: "In addition, the American fighter reaches the speed of Mach 2,5 and is equipped with technology" stealth ""

      It
      Die Welt.
      They have their own criteria for knowledge
      1. Scoun
        Scoun 8 November 2017 19: 42 New
        +3
        Quote: opus
        sqrt from EPR (EPO)
        sqrt (9) = 3
        sqrt (8) = 2,82
        it is quite significant

        I understood a little but the comment is impressive!
        + definitely!
        PS.
        But if possible, with a translation into the proletarian language)))
        1. opus
          opus 9 November 2017 00: 05 New
          +3
          Quote: Scoun
          But if possible, with a translation into the proletarian language)))

          about square root?
          wink

          MATLAB

          I am different in the comments root square not to write
          1. Scoun
            Scoun 9 November 2017 08: 30 New
            +1
            Quote: opus
            Quote: Scoun
            But if possible, with a translation into the proletarian language)))

            about square root?
            wink

            MATLAB

            I am different in the comments root square not to write

            Eh (((aivse these skrt and scratch?)))
      2. EvilLion
        EvilLion 13 November 2017 08: 37 New
        0
        From where 5 meters, up to a meter with something, judging by the available statements, they reduce EPR without the use of special stealth technologies.
      3. EvilLion
        EvilLion 13 November 2017 08: 38 New
        +1
        The decrease in the detection range is proportional to the root of the 4 degree from the EPR. To reduce the range by 2 times, it is necessary to reduce the EPR by 16 times.
    5. bodzu
      bodzu 12 November 2017 12: 01 New
      0
      I agree a lot depends on the pilot.
  4. Just a man
    Just a man 8 November 2017 12: 45 New
    +7
    Something from the article, I did not understand who was standing on whom? I thought serious analytical material, but this is just an article of slag, nothing about.
  5. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 8 November 2017 12: 45 New
    +7
    And where's the F-15 Stealth? Yes, let them think they want. Of course they are better. Because it’s more expensive ... But expensive is never bad laughing
    1. svp67
      svp67 8 November 2017 12: 49 New
      +4
      Quote: Mountain Shooter
      And where is the F-15 Stealth?

      Where, where ... in the tail ....
      1. LSA57
        LSA57 8 November 2017 13: 20 New
        +6
        Quote: svp67
        Where, where ... in the tail ....

        not under the tail? repeat
    2. Grandfather
      Grandfather 8 November 2017 12: 50 New
      +5
      Quote: Mountain Shooter
      Of course they are better. Because more expensive ..

      noooo! because american.
    3. Gale
      Gale 8 November 2017 13: 09 New
      +7
      about f-15 silent needles heard? it’s true that it will be a prodigy at a price higher than f-35, but nevertheless there is such a device, but that’s not the point ..
      f-15 of the latest modifications has afar, advanced avionics and a rich nomenclature of WTO, how can the su-30 respond? somersaults at an air show?)
      1. Vanek
        Vanek 8 November 2017 13: 51 New
        14
        In the first round, the role of the target was played by the F-15D, which was attacked by the Su-27UB. In the future, it was supposed to swap places. For the American “eagle” the task of “shaking off” the Russian fighter from the tail turned out to be impossible. But the "twenty-seventh" kept the enemy in sight without much effort.

        Change of position further widened the gap in results. Attacked by an American, the Su-27UB with the help of an energetic U-turn with climb at full fast-and-furious detached itself from the enemy, and after one and a half full turns left the tail of the “fifteenth”, capturing the target. True, after the C / -27UB “flunked” the F-15, it turned out that by doing so he “removed” the witness, who turned out to be an innocent F-15D escort aircraft.

        After that, the Russian pilot took up his specific opponent - the two-seater F-15D. And he completely lost sight of the Su-27UB and was forced to request an escort aircraft about the location of the enemy. At this time, the "twenty-seventh" went into the tail of the F-15D and, remaining undetected for that, firmly held it in the sight, which was reported from the escort aircraft. The American repeatedly tried to break away from the pursuing "twenty-seventh", but all his attempts were futile.

        The change of pilots in the cockpits of the "fighting" aircraft did not bring any surprises to the results. And the second Russian pilot “beat” the new American pilot who occupied the cockpit of the F-15D. The vaunted American “eagle” was put to shame by a Russian Su-fighter, which this time left air superiority at the near approaches to the United States.

        Of course, the results of this friendly meeting were not covered by the American media.


        They said somersaults, they said the air show.
    4. opus
      opus 8 November 2017 14: 55 New
      +3
      Quote: Mountain Shooter
      And where is the F-15 Stealth?

      F-15E-1 Silent Eagle
      here




      weapons bays can be replaced with comformed fuel tanks and vice versa.
      Keels collapsed out.
      RPM
      Radar lockers

      Positioned as a competitor F-35.

      in the frontal plane, under certain conditions, to 3 m ^ 2
      Quote: svp67
      Where, where ... in the tail ....

      so exactly (or rather including) - the collapse

      и
      General Electric F-110- GE -129 instead of traditional Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220


      + "little things"


      APG-63 (V) 3 AESA (AFAR)


  6. rotmistr60
    rotmistr60 8 November 2017 12: 45 New
    +6
    The Germans would do well to look at their Air Force, which they have in a deplorable state. Or they also hope that the Americans will protect, so they decided to abandon the bream.
    1. PROXOR
      PROXOR 8 November 2017 12: 56 New
      +3
      The Germans will soon have a Fu-35. NANO-SURVUNDERWAFFLE !!!!
    2. askort154
      askort154 8 November 2017 13: 38 New
      +2
      rotmistr60 ..... The Germans would not hurt to look at their Air Force, which they have in a deplorable state.

      .... It turned out that out of 30 Tiger attack helicopters, only 10 are suitable for use, out of 33 NH90 helicopters, only 8 are operational, 89 out of 38 Tornado fighters, 56 out of 24 Transall transport ...
      (from the report of Helmut Könninghaus, chief inspector of the combat readiness of the armed forces of the FRG, September 24.09.2014, XNUMX)
      1. Sauron80
        Sauron80 8 November 2017 15: 52 New
        +3
        Goering in a coffin spins and wipes away tears.
    3. Alexander Abdrakhmanov
      Alexander Abdrakhmanov 8 November 2017 21: 05 New
      +2
      The Germans do not say - they only repeat what the Americans told them. He will say it wrong, he will receive it from the American in the face. The slave awakens to say what the master orders him.
  7. Livonetc
    Livonetc 8 November 2017 12: 47 New
    +1
    Quote: 100502
    I agree with the Germans in this case, now 2017 will not save somersaults from the rocket, now the main thing is who sees further and whose rocket is better and not all cobras, etc.

    Well, then you probably know about missiles.
    How are things going there.
    Or all the money pledged, wasted in vain on the "serpentarium"?
    Anyway, who established that a particular quality is NOW IMPORTANT?
    1. aleks26
      aleks26 8 November 2017 14: 04 New
      0
      Quote: Livonetc
      Anyway, who established that a particular quality is NOW IMPORTANT?

      By the way, from an interview with air developers (of different) - the benefits of both super-maneuverability and stealth technologies are VERY exaggerated!
  8. afrikanez
    afrikanez 8 November 2017 12: 50 New
    +7
    Actually, a man dreamed of flying like a bird, and not like a brick thrown from a bell tower. So, in our opinion, the F-15 flight is the very fall from a height with a very high speed (in the presence of stealth technology). Well, we will continue to fly like birds, easily and naturally.
  9. PROXOR
    PROXOR 8 November 2017 12: 55 New
    +3
    Poor guys. Only pisyulkami and remains to hide behind. Given the Su-30SM radar and the R-37 missile, a pinched eagle does not even need pirouettes. It will be like in a saying, eyes see and hands are short.
  10. _Jack_
    _Jack_ 8 November 2017 12: 56 New
    +5
    In general, everything is true - the combat load of the F-15E is about 11 tons, against 8 for the SU-30SM, the maximum speed is 2655 km / h F-15E, 2350 km / h SU-30SM. Stealth is not in both.
    The thrust of the Pratt & Whitney F100F100-229 is slightly larger than that of the AL-31FP, apparently due to this advantage.
    Maneuverability is better with the SU-30SM. In general, planes are close in terms of characteristics.
    1. Sauron80
      Sauron80 8 November 2017 15: 54 New
      +4
      And all 11 tons in hidden compartments? And he picks up maximum speed with maximum load?
      1. _Jack_
        _Jack_ 8 November 2017 19: 36 New
        +1
        And all 11 tons in hidden compartments?

        Nobody talked about hidden compartments, this is not the 5th generation. On the pylons, the same as in the SU-30SM.
        And he picks up maximum speed with maximum load?

        So the SU-30SM will not pick up maximum speed with maximum load, everything is fair.
        1. vik669
          vik669 9 November 2017 01: 14 New
          +1
          Our Masha is better than yours, our Masha is the best!
    2. SergF123
      SergF123 9 November 2017 05: 27 New
      +2
      The mattress and the Russian Federation have different approaches to indicators ......
  11. ul_vitalii
    ul_vitalii 8 November 2017 12: 59 New
    +8
    It means that the Americans are soon sucking in the Hanses of the “Eagles”, while they are calming themselves, and there they decide what to do with them.
  12. Mar.Tirah
    Mar.Tirah 8 November 2017 13: 01 New
    +9
    Data February 2004 in the Indian Gulior. The ratio of conditional losses was 9: 1 in favor of the Indian Air Force
    In long-distance battles, outside of visual visibility, the F-15C and Su-30 detected each other with the help of radar at approximately equal distances, but Indian pilots were the first to carry out conditional launches of the UR-27 and, accordingly, were more likely to win.
    In a maneuverable battle, the Su-30, even in the case without an engine with OVT, completely surpassed the F-15C, and not least due to the greater fuel supply, so Indians more often than Americans could include afterburners for a longer time. And if the F-15 uses outboard tanks, to increase the flight range, what kind of stealth are we talking about? Here's the answer!
  13. d ^ Amir
    d ^ Amir 8 November 2017 13: 02 New
    +6
    Well fso !!!!! Russian funka !!!! ahtung !!!! you have a shit !!!! we have "an American fighter reaches Mach 2,5 and is equipped with stealth technology" ..... I wonder what Die Welt uses before writing ???? it doesn’t look like alcohol, it hurts rich glitches ....
    1. Alexanast
      Alexanast 8 November 2017 13: 18 New
      13
      Well fso !!!!! Russian funka !!!! ahtung !!!! you have a shit !!!!

      This is an offset ... laughing good
      reaches Mach 2,5


      Well, a joke about Maha ...

      Rabinovich’s wife comes from the market and tells her husband:
      - Oh, Abram, I gave a blunder today!
      - What Mach ?! Mach left five years ago!
      - Yes, you do not understand me! I gave the taxi driver five rubles and forgot to take
      change.
      “Oh, Sarah, you'd better give Mach!”
      1. d ^ Amir
        d ^ Amir 8 November 2017 13: 22 New
        +1
        hi a joke, also a set-off !!!! good
    2. aleks26
      aleks26 8 November 2017 14: 10 New
      +3
      Quote: d ^ Amir
      I wonder what Die Welt use before writing ???? it doesn’t look like alcohol, it hurts rich glitches ....

      ANY article is written for a specific audience! It is intended for "cooks" and humanities. But why it was posted on VO is just not clear, almost an insult to VO readers.
  14. Gale
    Gale 8 November 2017 13: 03 New
    +2
    this is understandable even without German media, the latest advanced versions of the eagle and the su-35 are not a competitor, well, except for acrobatic tricks at all kinds of air shows, drying is in the lead here laughing
    1. aleks26
      aleks26 8 November 2017 14: 14 New
      +2
      Quote: GaLe
      The latest advanced modifications of the eagle and the self-propelled su-35 are not a competitor,

      Well, yes, yes, there’s nothing to do with the vaunted F22 and F35, they are not ORLAM competitors. request
      1. Gale
        Gale 8 November 2017 14: 21 New
        +1
        f-22 and -f-35 are machines of a different level, much more advanced. For the sushi there is enough an eagle)
        1. bulvas
          bulvas 8 November 2017 15: 02 New
          +6
          Quote: GaLe
          f-22 and -f-35 are machines of a different level, much more advanced. For the sushi there is enough an eagle)


          One is not enough, not serious.
          One “eagle” will not climb on the SU with a Russian pilot, except perhaps with a flock ...

          Maybe share, where does such confidence come from?
          Something "the bravest warriors in the world" on the "most advanced" military equipment does not agree to compete with backward barbarians and quilted jackets.

          Neither on tanks nor on airplanes.


        2. NN52
          NN52 8 November 2017 21: 16 New
          10
          Gale

          And I look at you, everything is not wrinkling ... delirium not substantiated by anything and not supported by anything, continue to write ...
  15. Altona
    Altona 8 November 2017 13: 06 New
    +3
    Quote: voyaka uh
    The ESR is equally huge, that of the Su-30, that of the F-15.
    Around the same aircraft in all respects.

    ------------------------------
    Agree with you. One thing is interesting, why do zhurnalyugs constantly grab comparisons of iron? The brave warrior delivers modern tanks is not the latest grenade launcher. The weapon is of course an important factor, but in this case there are no obvious advantages between the planes and it all depends on the skill and determination of the crews.
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 8 November 2017 13: 39 New
      +1
      Quote: Altona
      Quote: voyaka uh
      The ESR is equally huge, that of the Su-30, that of the F-15.
      Around the same aircraft in all respects.

      ------------------------------
      Agree with you. One thing is interesting, why do zhurnalyugs constantly grab comparisons of iron? The brave warrior delivers modern tanks is not the latest grenade launcher. The weapon is of course an important factor, but in this case there are no obvious advantages between the planes and it all depends on the skill and determination of the crews.

      Raises patriotism and is of great interest to anyone who doesn’t chop people in this for the most part)))
      Our type is better because it is done with us or is in service with us
      1. CONTROL
        CONTROL 8 November 2017 15: 01 New
        +3
        Quote: Krasnodar
        Our type is better because it is done with us or is in service with us

        The best chewing gum in the Universe is our chewing gum !!!
        ...and:
        What matters is not size, but the ability to use them!
        1. Sauron80
          Sauron80 8 November 2017 15: 57 New
          +3
          Our chips are the largest chips in the world! )))
    2. SergF123
      SergF123 9 November 2017 05: 24 New
      0
      Another expert (((How can you compare avionics at all ?! do you know the technical characteristics of their radars, electronic warfare systems, anti-missile traps and all missile systems that oppose electronic warfare and traps ?! Do you also know all kinds of anti-missile maneuvers ?! X. do not write nudes .....
  16. Herculesic
    Herculesic 8 November 2017 13: 17 New
    +4
    Just the opposite, the F15 was not yet a competitor to the Su27, nor a competitor to the Su30! And let the journalists continue to spray their saliva - we re-start! !
    1. 100502
      100502 8 November 2017 14: 57 New
      +2
      Only in your imagination
  17. begemot20091
    begemot20091 8 November 2017 13: 18 New
    0
    Quote: Finches
    The Germans write this, I think, from evil, experiencing a huge sense of their own inferiority - remembering that they once had superiority in this area, creating reactive messengers, having the most powerful Air Force in the world, but shaved everything, first to the Russian Yaks and Ilam, and then and generally lay down under the Yankees ... Fu, suckers! laughing

    that's for sure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  18. Equalized
    Equalized 8 November 2017 13: 18 New
    +2
    F-15 is really good, the latest modifications are equipped better than the Su-30 and even the Su-35 in terms of radar and avionics. Only now I do not remember that the F-15 was a stealth plane smile

    There was a Silent Eagle project, but it seemed to be turned off ... where does the Strike Eagle?
    1. SergF123
      SergF123 9 November 2017 05: 31 New
      0
      Another expert (((How can you compare avionics at all ?! do you know the technical characteristics of their radars, electronic warfare systems, anti-missile traps and all missile systems that oppose electronic warfare and traps ?! Do you also know all kinds of anti-missile maneuvers ?! X. do not write nudes .....
    2. Baby sitter
      Baby sitter 12 November 2017 22: 27 New
      +1
      The most invisible aircraft - Russian! It's like a gopher series ... "Do you see the T-50 in the sky? And I don’t see ... But he is !!!!" :))))
  19. gorgo
    gorgo 8 November 2017 13: 24 New
    +3
    Quote: 100502
    I agree with the Germans in this case, now 2017 will not save somersaults from the rocket, now the main thing is who sees further and whose rocket is better and not all cobras, etc.


    Such an opinion already existed in the 50-60x, at the dawn of the rocket era. Vietnam has shown that close air combat remains very relevant. And for close combat maneuverability is everything.
    1. 100502
      100502 8 November 2017 15: 08 New
      +2
      You can distinguish a calculator from a smartphone ... comparing rockets from the 60s and 2017th is silly
  20. driver
    driver 8 November 2017 13: 32 New
    +4
    And that all in TTX grabbed? The main thing is what is the "gasket" between the steering wheel and the seat!
  21. skomfit
    skomfit 8 November 2017 13: 59 New
    +2
    We saw how their stealth burned in Yugoslavia.
    1. Satanator
      Satanator 9 November 2017 02: 13 New
      +2
      and now in Syria, the F-35 at a meeting with the S-200 drives to the base, and in their press they write about “bird attacks”, well, like the cormorants “zenith-arena” are crumbling)))
  22. tomket
    tomket 8 November 2017 14: 03 New
    +3
    According to their logic, neither the f-35 nor the f-22 are competitors of the MiG-23. After all, they have a lower speed)))))))))) And yet, with such stealth technologies The case when the level of media incompetence just rolls over ....
    1. SergF123
      SergF123 9 November 2017 05: 16 New
      0
      We must not start like that!)) MiG-31 is the fastest, and therefore the most))
  23. oldzek
    oldzek 8 November 2017 14: 05 New
    +3
    yes shy! forgot that the main detail of any weapon is the head of its owner, and you Mach, stealth ...
    1. 100502
      100502 8 November 2017 15: 10 New
      +1
      However, it’s stupid to go with a pitchfork into a battle against a man with a gun
      1. Sauron80
        Sauron80 8 November 2017 15: 58 New
        +4
        In a dark alley, from behind the corner, forks can be better than an automaton;)
  24. complete zero
    complete zero 8 November 2017 14: 09 New
    +1
    Quote: Primoos
    Consoled themselves, otherwise it is terrible to live in this world. And they do not need a loop, and other figures. Well, fly on the irons, since the figures are not capable.

    it’s all a matter of military doctrine (and not of irons) ... the West has relied on stealth and improvement of medium-range missiles (hence the need to be stealth) -we have another doctrine-close maneuverable aerial combat (from this the super-maneuverability and the presence of P- 73 with a helmet-mounted guidance system) - who is the truth? ... yes God knows him (it’s better not to even know when) ... there haven’t been fights between our and American pilots
    1. Alexander Borisov
      Alexander Borisov 18 November 2017 14: 37 New
      0
      As test pilots say, close maneuverable combat is like a bayonet-knife for an infantryman. Well, it turns out that the bayonet-knife is better with us. But when martial arts of fighters are discussed, the capabilities of electronic warfare equipment are not taken into account, and this is very important, because blinding the enemy is not difficult to destroy him. And of course, the tactics of using aviation is very important, it’s like in chess.
  25. XXXIII
    XXXIII 8 November 2017 14: 31 New
    +4
    German media: Su-30CM American "Eagle" is not a competitor

    wassat
  26. Setavr
    Setavr 8 November 2017 14: 35 New
    0
    Of course, not an expert.
    In Lock On on the Su-27 (a pretty serious flight simulator), the F-15 is one of the most dangerous opponents at long range. In close combat is not dangerous.
    :)
    1. Alexander Abdrakhmanov
      Alexander Abdrakhmanov 8 November 2017 20: 58 New
      0
      What are you raving about - Russia has missiles that will get the enemy’s plane without entering its zone of destruction.
    2. SergF123
      SergF123 9 November 2017 05: 20 New
      +2
      Judging by the emulators in the mattress - WELL YOU ......!)))))) Samou is not funny! Refer to the emulator ?!
  27. Egorovich
    Egorovich 8 November 2017 14: 40 New
    +6
    Another Western nonsense. Dogs bark, the caravan goes, i.e. Russia continues to arm and rearm at a good pace. But the liars are paid, they breach. It has always been and will be.
  28. tchoni
    tchoni 8 November 2017 14: 41 New
    0
    The Germans are right in their own way. Each machine has strengths and weaknesses. And the effectiveness of their application depends on strategists on aviation. Who doubts this - remember the 41 year when the “Messer” was also inferior to the “donkeys” and “gulls” in maneuverability, but surpassed them in speed and combat load.
  29. Altona
    Altona 8 November 2017 15: 04 New
    +3
    Quote: Krasnodar
    Raises patriotism and is of great interest to anyone who doesn’t chop people in this for the most part)))
    Our type is better because it is done with us or is in service with us

    -------------------------------
    And here is all that you said? And what is wrong with patriotism, which is also being wound up on American citizens by all means? Characteristics of aircraft on the Internet are available. In addition, we do not know to what characteristics the Eagle is wound, and the Boeing very seriously upgraded it to compete with the same F-35. I personally read all this, though for quite some time now. You are apparently writing in order to fast, to have a fuss. When you don’t have your thoughts, you must first spit on someone like Solzhenitsyn. So you behave like that.
    PS Read on the Internet how the Israelis with their airplanes, having developed special tactics, failed our most advanced MiG-25 interceptor, with which they could not compete either in speed, in height, or in anything. And yet.
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion 13 November 2017 08: 45 New
      +2
      With ambush tactics, you can also catch the MiG-25, but this does not deny the technical difficulties of this process and the high chances that the 25 will fly away as it flew, for example, from the F / A-18 formation (it seemed like 40, although it was bold as that) on the first night of Desert Storm, before sending one to the ground.
  30. Kurosaki Ichigo
    Kurosaki Ichigo 8 November 2017 16: 56 New
    0
    Well, how is it ...
    There were already battles between the Su-30MKI and the F-15C. the result, to put it mildly ... not very ...
    The Americans flew with their hands tied, both in height and in the RVV (AIM-9M), while the Su-30MKI had no restrictions.
    Result 3-1, in favor of the Indians. It would seem that only a third of the battles are merged, a victory? Everything would be fine if the Americans were not connected in height and RVV, in contrast to the Indians, who did not have any restrictions, both in RVV and in heights.
    And then the comparison goes with the F-15SE. So the title has a right to life.
    By the way, then the Indians did not fly to Red Flag, referring to the "radar secrecy".

    Well, a little more retreat: there is a lot of writing about maneuverability, that it really solves. Alas, this is not so!
    Always steered thrust-to-weight ratio! Recall WWII, where the more maneuverable Yaks fused BF-109F-4, for example, or even FW-190A.
    You can also recall the battles between A6M2 and F4F, where "Wildcat"showed better performance!
    I'm not talking about the F-4U, or the same F-6F.
    And A6M2, he’sZero"- the most maneuverable monoplane! Did it help him much? No.
    Recall Korea, F-86 "Saber"against the MiG-15:"Saber"was much more maneuverable than the MiG, but it pulled the MiG, since the thrust-weight ratio is higher!
    1. NN52
      NN52 8 November 2017 20: 44 New
      11
      You are nonsense do not write pzhl ...
      You are not in the subject, from the word in any way .. And everywhere ...
      From Saber to SM ...

      I don’t even know what to tell you ... either to teach history, or materiel ...
    2. SergF123
      SergF123 9 November 2017 05: 13 New
      +4
      Did you read the brochure from the VarTander game ?! - commendable
    3. EvilLion
      EvilLion 13 November 2017 08: 50 New
      +3
      The height restrictions are the same for everyone, this in particular follows from the safety requirements.

      The MiG-15 did not drag against the Sabers, the MiG-15 did not care for the Sabers, either because the bombers were aimed at or because of different conditions for achieving max. advantages because of which the planes often just flew apart, taking advantageous positions, but losing contact.

      “Zero” didn’t have protection, but in battle you still get the plush, and most importantly, the Americans made new engines, the Japanese didn’t, they didn’t have the opportunity, as a result, “Zero” was devoured simply due to the growth of the technical characteristics during the war and quantity. At the same time, the problem in the 42 was a serious one.
  31. Wolka
    Wolka 8 November 2017 17: 25 New
    0
    speed and armament are important for an airplane, of course, but you also need to be able to fly, but with the proper high-quality personnel, the Yankees, to put it mildly, are not very ...
  32. 1536
    1536 8 November 2017 18: 36 New
    0
    The Germans again want to show us the production of their latest aircraft? And the Americans, probably, hope that we will purchase the F-15 under the new Lend-Lease? Oh well.
  33. nnz226
    nnz226 8 November 2017 19: 19 New
    +2
    Since when did the F-15 of the development of the 70 of the last century begin to have the "Stealth" technology ??? The Germans do not see the coast? Or mixed up with F-35? So this "miracle" of the US aviation industry still somehow flies badly ...
    1. Alexander Abdrakhmanov
      Alexander Abdrakhmanov 8 November 2017 20: 33 New
      +1
      Germany is not an independent country, it is under the hood of the United States. What they say to her, they will write and praise, otherwise they will shut their mouths so that they would not humiliate the United States.
    2. Alexander Abdrakhmanov
      Alexander Abdrakhmanov 8 November 2017 20: 53 New
      0
      As our designers say - how the airplane looks like this is how it flies.
  34. Alexander Abdrakhmanov
    Alexander Abdrakhmanov 8 November 2017 20: 29 New
    +1
    The Germans optionally take those planes that are inferior to the "Eagle". They also compared it with the AN - 2 - then the complete victory of a US aircraft. It seems that Russia has one plane, it has no other.
  35. Vadim Sh.
    Vadim Sh. 8 November 2017 21: 31 New
    0
    Another nonsense of the German zhurnalyuga, as Famusov said - clicker, paper-digger, if only to write something, with the same performance characteristics - the strength of mind wins, but as you know, it is completely absent.
  36. Andrey Kandakov
    Andrey Kandakov 8 November 2017 22: 15 New
    0
    the fascists again begin to hobble, in the end, the victory depends not only on aviation, and against this background I would like to ask the underelicated what you can oppose to the Russian army and navy, except for the outdated ova letaki
  37. Andrey Kandakov
    Andrey Kandakov 8 November 2017 22: 16 New
    0
    but I didn’t understand something, is the word p.i.nd.so.sy here under the ban of the tunnels?
  38. Serzh_R
    Serzh_R 8 November 2017 22: 42 New
    0
    Both aircraft have authority in their own country - so be it.
  39. Eflintuk
    Eflintuk 8 November 2017 23: 47 New
    0
    Really tired of these cobras, bells, tailings ... this will never happen ... is it really not clear - they will leave immediately from such a fight, if there is still someone to fight with.
    1. SergF123
      SergF123 9 November 2017 05: 18 New
      +2
      Yes, you seem to be an ace pilot ?!))) I love experts))) Sometimes it's better to chew - do you know the advertisement ?!
  40. The comment was deleted.
  41. Mayorpcela
    Mayorpcela 9 November 2017 00: 29 New
    0
    Dumb Fritz, to whom to talk about the comparison of aircraft, so only they laughing
  42. SergF123
    SergF123 9 November 2017 05: 09 New
    +2
    That's just the combat load of the F-15E more than the Su-30SM. In addition, the American fighter reaches Mach 2,5 and is equipped with stealth technology! ”
    Buga0gaaaaa ....... I almost torn my stomach ... AAAAaaaa .................
    Uff .... sorry for the emotions, but let the whole German consist of F-15E invisibles!))))))
  43. complete zero
    complete zero 9 November 2017 09: 56 New
    +2
    Quote: Setavr
    Of course, not an expert.
    In Lock On on the Su-27 (a pretty serious flight simulator), the F-15 is one of the most dangerous opponents at long range. In close combat is not dangerous.
    :)

    good sim .. long "sat" on it))))))
  44. complete zero
    complete zero 9 November 2017 09: 58 New
    0
    Quote: Alexander Abdrakhmanov
    What are you raving about - Russia has missiles that will get the enemy’s plane without entering its zone of destruction.
    .
    Quote: Alexander Abdrakhmanov
    What are you raving about - Russia has missiles that will get the enemy’s plane without entering its zone of destruction.

    missiles that is, but the essence is different ... one will be found in 100 km (roughly) and the other in 10 .. how do you think who will launch the missiles earlier?
  45. ROM1077
    ROM1077 9 November 2017 10: 59 New
    0
    Russia urgently needs to stamp more air defense and aviation. let the quantity exceed the quality ...
  46. chief.matros
    chief.matros 9 November 2017 13: 18 New
    0
    when they design an airplane, they naturally make certain demands on it, based on existing and promising ones, I think our specialists are unlikely to start production in a machine that is slightly superior in some respects to the existing machines (planes) of a potential enemy.
  47. Sands Careers General
    Sands Careers General 9 November 2017 21: 18 New
    +5
    "The Su-30SM is a really good car, but it is inferior to the F-15E Strike Eagle," writes the German newspaper Die Welt.

    I wonder from what time the newspaper has become a military expert? And yes, if you want them to lick the Americans, not necessarily blow nonsense and nonsense to the whole world. Experts know how things really are.
  48. FalconSD
    FalconSD 9 November 2017 22: 03 New
    0
    Quote: 100502
    I agree with the Germans in this case, now 2017 will not save somersaults from the rocket, now the main thing is who sees further and whose rocket is better and not all cobras, etc.
    a missile, even without evasion maneuvers and missile defense, has a probability of destruction of less than one. somersaults are very useful from missiles, even the uneducated Syrians in the old junk sometimes manage to dodge missiles with maneuvers. what to say about the modern combat complex. fortunately, we will never know whose plane is better.
  49. complete zero
    complete zero 10 November 2017 00: 36 New
    0
    Quote: FalconSD
    Quote: 100502
    I agree with the Germans in this case, now 2017 will not save somersaults from the rocket, now the main thing is who sees further and whose rocket is better and not all cobras, etc.
    a missile, even without evasion maneuvers and missile defense, has a probability of destruction of less than one. somersaults are very useful from missiles, even the uneducated Syrians in the old junk sometimes manage to dodge missiles with maneuvers. what to say about the modern combat complex. fortunately, we will never know whose plane is better.

    somersaults from missiles? ... well, of course they help (for that they are somersaults) .. only in overload (with these somersaults) .. such that not everyone can withstand ... 8-9 G
  50. Gomel
    Gomel 10 November 2017 10: 32 New
    0
    F-15E ....... is equipped with technology "stealth" ???

    In which place????