Missed Straits

125
All my history The Byzantine Empire covered European civilization from the eastern hordes, who sought to flood Europe. For a thousand years, the great Orthodox empire carried its cross, fulfilling its historic task with dignity - controlling the geostrategic straits of the Bosphorus and the Dardanelles. But this is the story that the Straits - the most important geopolitical knot of Eurasia - became Turkish.

The Bosphorus connects the Black Sea with the Marmara Sea, and the Dardanelles connects the European part of Turkey (the Gallipoli peninsula) and the Asian (north-western part of Asia Minor), the Sea of ​​Marmara with the Aegean Sea.



Like a century ago, the Straits remain the center of world geopolitics. And the age-old interest of Russia, the state of the Black Sea, to their status is logical - the question of the fate of the Straits was and is of crucial importance for the Russian economy and foreign policy.

In the 20th century, the Turkish Straits were of even more serious economic and strategic importance for our country. Suffice it to say that at the beginning of the century - 80%, and in the middle - 50% of exports of the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union, respectively, passed through the Bosphorus and the Dardanelles. The straits were the strategic "pipe", passing through which the fleets of the great maritime powers could attack the southern underbelly of Russia.


Il 1. General view of the Turkish Straits.

During the First World Control of the Straits of Turkey, this was also the main opportunity for Russia to implement military-technical cooperation with its allies. After all, the entry of Turkey into the war on the side of the German bloc automatically put Russia (very interested in regular military-technical cooperation with the allies) in an almost complete (except for Vladivostok and Arkhangelsk with Murmansk) blockade.

Initially, the Entente did not give a definite answer to the vital question for the Russian Empire about the post-war state affiliation of the Straits. But the hope for a favorable resolution of this issue for Russia appeared during the Dardanelles strategic operation - the British government in a memorandum of its Petrograd embassy from 12. 03. 1915 officially recognized Russian claims, both in the Straits and Istanbul (Constantinople). There were only two conditions: first, bringing the war to a victorious end and, second, satisfying the similar territorial wishes of Great Britain and France. 16. 04. 1915 managed to achieve agreement on the accession of the Straits region and Constantinople to Russia - on the basis of the conditions stipulated in the English memorandum - and from France. In response, the Russian government agreed to the Allies to implement any compensation at the expense of the Ottoman Empire — that is, the long overdue question of dividing Turkey was raised.


Il 2. Map of the Entente Agreement on the Straits in the spring of 1915

Thus, after Turkey entered the German bloc, for the first time in 200 years of diplomatic confrontation, a unique situation emerged - the once united front of European powers, usually formed against Russia and aimed at preventing its positions in the Middle East and the Balkans, split.

The military-political leadership of Russia in the spring of 1915 was planning the Bosporus operation. Initially, it was conceived as an auxiliary operation of the Russian armed forces - to meet broken through allies, and in 1916 - 1917. - as an independent operation. Unfortunately, the course of the hostilities and the February coup that followed did not allow this opportunity to be realized.

Of key importance was the attitude to this promising strategic operation of the high command of Russia. The episode reproduced by Rear Admiral A. D. Bubnov is very indicative: when at the beginning of the war he attended the Supreme Commander’s breakfast, the quartermaster-general of the Stavka Yu. N. Danilov answered the question about the fate of the Straits that we will be on the Oder - that is, after the victory over Germany. He was convinced that the problem of the Straits would be solved by a victory over Germany and the Chief of Staff of the Second Headquarters M. V. Alekseev, who considered the Bosporus operation an unnecessary undertaking, distracting troops from the main theater. Not surprisingly, he sabotaged the implementation of this operation in 1916 in every possible way.

And this is despite the fact that the operational-strategic situation in the 1916 campaign was taking shape on the Russian front very favorably. By the spring of this year, due to a series of military catastrophes on the Caucasian front, failures in Palestine and in the Suez Canal area, heavy losses during the defense of the Dardanelles, the combat capability of the Turkish troops was seriously undermined, and their resources were exhausted.

The German High Command, demanding, in connection with the successes of the Offensive of the Southwestern Front in the summer of 1916, the transfer to Galicia of a selected Turkish corps (which absorbed all the most combat-ready units and formations from the grouping concentrated in the Straits and near Constantinople) exposed the region Straits. And after the departure of this corps, in July 1916, only the 3 divisions remained in the Straits. And given the insufficient capacity of railway lines, the Turks' allies - the Germans and Austrians - couldn’t have been able to transfer considerable forces to the area earlier than 2 weeks after the start of the landing operation of the Russian army.

It is worth remembering that when, in April 1915, combat-ready Ottoman troops occupied fortified positions on Gallipoli, the British were able to land 5 of their divisions - and 9 months with varying success to conduct hostilities. In the summer of 1916, when the combat capability of the Turkish armed forces was reduced, 5 selective divisions of the victorious Caucasian army more than likely would have been able to successfully land on the Bosphorus coast and capture the Bosphorus region. In the 1916 campaign, Turkey was the weakest link in the camp of the German bloc - the Bosporus Expedition and the Brusilov offensive with a high degree of probability launched a chain reaction of the collapse of the hostile coalition.

But ... during the First World War, Turkey was considered a minor adversary in Russia. The lack of political will of the state leadership and high-mindedness of the high command are the main reasons for the lack of implementation of the Bosporus operation.

Unable to resolve the issue of the Straits in 1943 - 1947.

When 22. 06. 1941 in Turkey received information about the German attack on the USSR, a general holiday began in the country: people were jubilant, congratulating each other on a joyous event, and, as the source noted, all Turkish hearts, remembering 5 centuries of history, fought in unison with Nazi victories.

However, Turkey did not intend to enter the war - declaring its neutrality on the same day. But at the same time, the Turkish government demonstrated open hostility towards the USSR, taking an explicit pro-German position.

The attempts of the Turkish ruling circles to provoke a split in our country were revealed. In particular, in the course of communication with German partners in August 1941, the Turkish ambassador declared the sufferings of “Soviet border tribes of Turkic origin,” noting the possibility of carrying on pro-German propaganda through them. It was also said about the possibility of uniting the Caucasian peoples of the USSR into an independent buffer state, and a Turkic state should have been created east of the Caspian Sea. 10. 10. 1942, the head of the Turkish government, said that his country would not be indifferent to the fate of 40 of millions of Soviet citizens of Turkic origin. It was actually about the "Turkic Nazism" - it is therefore not surprising that the "neutrality" of Turkey was pro-German.

Turkey’s aspiration to provoke the Soviet Union was observed, moreover, in one of the most difficult periods for it. So, in the summer of 1942, Turkish troops began maneuvers on the Caucasian border. The number of groups was increased - the Turkish army, a potential opponent of the Red Army, delaying the Soviet troops, helped by this Germany. And the Transcaucasian Front was forced to cover both the Black Sea coast and the Soviet-Turkish border.

Obvious direct analogy with Japan. The latter also conducted in 1941-1945. on the border "maneuvers", otgryvala Soviet troops and arranged provocations. The only difference was that Turkey was not an official ally of the Third Reich. But the question arises: why was the Turkish policy not recognized as actually hostile to the Soviet Union, and why was it not dealt with as with Japan? After all, the necessary forces and even the principled support of the allies in that period were in place. And the strategic impact of such a step would be significant.

Subsequently, the Soviet military and political leadership had to regret that in 1943 - 1945. a new Caucasian front did not arise, which could once and for all remove the entire complex of Russian-Turkish contradictions.

As the victorious powers of the anti-Hitler coalition approached the next German bloc in the highest echelon, the USSR authorities increased their sentiment in favor of a “cardinal solution” to the problem of the Straits, which led to the formulation of requirements for Turkey to give the USSR the opportunity to create military bases in the region.

Formal grounds for conflict with Turkey were absent from the USSR, especially since the States with 1925 had a prolonged Treaty of Friendship and Neutrality. The last time it was extended to 10 is the 1935-year term (it expired on 07. 09. 1945). But 19. 03. 1945, six months before the expiration of the contract, the Soviet Union, as it was provided for in the text of the agreement, notified Turkey that there would be no renewal. The Turks regarded this as the beginning of a confrontation.

The auspicious moment was again missed - the Great Patriotic War ended, and along with it the foreign political conjuncture favorable for our country also disappeared. And now the whole coalition — the United States, Great Britain, France and Turkey — opposed the Soviet Union’s desire to reconsider the status of the Straits.

Former allies did not support the Soviet Union at the Potsdam Conference, failed to regulate the desired status of the Straits for the USSR in the course of bilateral Russian-Turkish contacts - Soviet demarches only pushed Turkey into the arms of the Americans and, not least, caused the doctrine of G. in 1947. Truman, and later, in 1952, for Turkey’s entry into NATO.

Control over the Straits is control over Europe, and therefore over the whole world. Therefore, it is not surprising that during the period of the First World War the “allies” of Russia did everything to prevent the Turkish Straits from being under Russian control. The agreement of the British and French (given in the difficult conditions of the development of the maritime phase of the Dardanelles operation in the spring of 1915) to include the Straits and Constantinople into Russia was in fact a “bill of exchange” that still needed to be cashed.

When, after the end of the Second World War, the USSR made its demands to Turkey, now, in the conditions of the beginning of the Cold War between former allies, the Americans and the British took a similar position - not accepting the strengthening of the military and political influence of the USSR in the Straits zone.

The historian A. A. Kersnovsky was right when he wrote that Russia considered that the keys to the Bosphorus are located in Berlin, but in fact it turned out that the keys to Berlin were on the Bosphorus. As historical experience has shown, the defeat of Germany and its allies did not give control of the Straits to the USSR. Being in Berlin, the Bosphorus did not fall that way. Thus, it should be stated that the war with Germany (and the Second and First World Wars) was not a means of resolving the Bosphorus issue, but only a favorable military-political circumstance that could and should have been used to seize this geopolitical region.

Russia repeatedly missed the opportunity to solve the “Eastern” (Turkish) issue and the problem of the Turkish Straits - the corresponding chances were missed under Peter I, Catherine II and Alexander II.

The indecision of Emperor Nicholas II, who failed to cement the multidirectional approaches of the Stavka and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, did not allow the Bosporus operation.

The miscalculations of the military-political leadership of the USSR allowed Turkey, in fact an ally of Nazi Germany, to leave the Second World War safely and safely. Not used as intended in 1943-45. the Soviet Union, in turn, missed its chance to resolve the issue of the Turkish Straits.

Obviously, the control over the Straits and Constantinople should belong to Russia and Greece - which is perfectly understood by our Balkan partners. Being present three years ago, in September 2014, at the conference on the island of Lemnos, we had a chance to hear in the report of one of the Greek participants of the event the hope of dividing Turkey - and it was stated that the issue of the Straits depends on how the process goes and resolves the issue. the formation of a new center of power in Europe. But Greece, as the speaker emphasized, is able to resolve this issue only with Great Russia.

Of course, from the wishes to their implementation in life - the distance of a huge scale. Our state twice missed the opportunity to solve the problem of the strategic Turkish Straits - in 1915-16. and in 1943-45. And what will happen tomorrow - time will tell.
125 comments
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  1. +2
    2 October 2017 06: 42
    Why yes why ... Why the straits, why there is no ATS and CMEA ... Rulers are so weak .... and often just traitors.
    1. +1
      2 October 2017 16: 22
      Quote: 210ox
      Why yes why ... Why the straits, why there is no ATS and CMEA ... Rulers are so weak .... and often just traitors.

      “You might think that in history, a company of losers was operating” (We'll live until Monday), like you.
  2. +4
    2 October 2017 07: 01
    Kolchak worked out a detailed operation to capture the straits in 1916, but did not grow together ...
    By the way, what did the author begin to reason about the straits from the perspective of world wars? Here it is better to turn to the Russian-Turkish war of 1877-78. appeal, the capture of the straits and the assault of Constantinople were so real that our "allies" the Anglo-French fell into hysteria, threatened with almost a new Crimean War.
    1. +9
      2 October 2017 09: 16
      Only not Kolchak, but the brilliant General Yudenich N.N., commander of the Caucasus Front, developed and carried out an operation against Turkey in 1916, capturing the cities of Erzurum, Trebizond, Van, Erzincan and Bitlis, which could end with Russia's access to the straits and their accession to Russia. The development of the success of the Southern Front was hindered by the revolution provoked by the Anglo-Saxons: the Anglo-Saxons feared Russia would enter the Balkans and block the path through the Balkans to India - "the diamond in the crown of the British Empire."
      The situation was repeated in 1943 at the Tehran Conference, where U. Churchill, in contrast to Stalin's opinion, insisted on a landing in the Balkans - the British way to India.

      "People-State-Fatherland" - this is the slogan of every Russian patriot. A strong state, a close-knit people, prospering for centuries, the Fatherland, which can not be defeated either by internal or external enemies.
      1. +4
        2 October 2017 09: 57
        Let me disagree with you. Yudenich assumed the capture of Turkey from the zone of responsibility of the Caucasian Front, quite rightly. Kolchak was supposed to lead an expeditionary force advancing on the other side of the Black Sea:
        At the end of November 1916, the command planned the “Bosphorus Operation”. The project was sent for approval to the bid, where it received full support. To carry out the operation, they created the Separate Black Sea Marine Division under the command of General A. A. Svechin, staffed by experienced front-line soldiers and St. George cavaliers. The general command of the troops involved in the operation was entrusted to the commander of the Black Sea Fleet, Vice Admiral A.V. Kolchak. The first regiment of the division was supposed to be called Kolchak “Tsaregradsky”, the second “Nakhimovsky”, the third “Kornilovsky”, the fourth “Istominsky”, thereby paying tribute to the heroes of the defense of Sevastopol in the Crimean War.

        From the interrogation of Kolchak:

        According to the plan of this Bosphorus operation, one land unit, a strike-type division, was at my immediate disposal, a frame of which was sent to me from the front and one of the best officers of the general staff, general. Candles; Colonel of the General Staff Verkhovsky was appointed chief of staff. This division was preparing under my direct supervision and had to be thrown by the first landing force on the enemy coast in order to immediately settle on it and provide a landing site for the next troops who were to follow them. So all this preparation of work went on until the onset of a coup d'etat at the end of February. <…> The Bosphorus operation was supposed to be in the spring of 1917.

        But the operation had to be postponed due to the fact that two army corps had to be sent to the Romanian front, as the Romanian army was absolutely not ready for military operations and transport ships intended for the operation were involved. The decisive blow was planned for April 1917, but the operation did not take place due to the February Revolution.

        For simplicity, I quote information from the godless Wikipedia:
        https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Планы_русской_десан
        of the operation on the Bosphorus
        1. +4
          2 October 2017 10: 48
          With what you wrote, I agree. But, it is clear that it was the victory of the Caucasian Front under the command of N, N, Yudenich that laid the foundations of the operation to capture the straits.
      2. +3
        2 October 2017 10: 25
        "and the brilliant general Yudenich N.N" ////

        He really was a very competent military man. Only,
        in fact, who defeated the Reds.
        1. +7
          2 October 2017 11: 37
          Did I miss something? Yudenich’s offensive on Petrograd ended in his victory? Not serious?
          1. 0
            2 October 2017 11: 50
            definitely win
            he had more hats
          2. +2
            2 October 2017 13: 08
            With the insignificant powers that he had and he didn’t
            planned to take a huge city.
            The hope was only for the internal performance of the townspeople
            against the Bolsheviks. This did not happen and he
            retreated back to Estonia.
            1. +2
              2 October 2017 14: 17
              It seems like a pretty mess happened near Yudenich near Petrograd, the troops that were supposed to cut the Nikolaev railway., Illegally climbed the city to storm ..
            2. 0
              2 October 2017 14: 29
              The warrior, everything is easier there - foreign conductors did not allow the coup to fail. In the future, by the way, too ... more than once and not two
              1. +4
                2 October 2017 14: 34
                "foreign conductors" ///

                I even - from your previous posts - guess
                what nationality are these conspiracy theological mysterious conductors. laughing
                The first time I meet an Armenian - such a consistent anti-Semite.
                In Leningrad, my youth, the Armenians were very decent intelligent
                people, were friends with the Jews and even sought to become related.
                1. +1
                  2 October 2017 15: 08
                  A warrior, nothing surprising: when the Empire collapsed before your eyes, and, by chance, you know about all the corrupt ones, where they graze from ... involuntarily you will become so.
                  Once in Moscow, a sidekick introduced a woman in uniform ... I told her that the most ardent anti-Semite (I didn’t know about the word anti-Semite) that I met was her aunt ... so she scattered and explained that it from the fact that I didn’t know her ... Then somehow she got so drunk that her husband (Jew) could not stand it and left ... so she caught up with him and returned him to the table to listen to :)
                  ___
                  The other day I’ll go to the history department for info, in which year it was first banned from communicating with Jews (except for trade operations).
          3. 0
            2 October 2017 22: 24
            Quote: Laurel
            Yudenich’s offensive on Petrograd ended in his victory?

            It ended with a vile betrayal of Estonians am , and you probably know about it!
    2. +1
      2 October 2017 19: 07
      Quote: The Truth
      Only not Kolchak, but the brilliant General Yudenich N.N., commander of the Caucasian Front

      Not Kolchak and Yudenich, but the most real chance was under Catherine the Great. She called her grandson Constantine, as the future prince-governor of Constantinople. The division of Turkey seemed to everyone a matter of time, but the French Revolution broke out and the Austrians, who also wanted to bite off a tidbit of Turkish pie, were not up to it. As we know, everyone (including Turkey) has already attacked France.
  3. +4
    2 October 2017 07: 29
    No one would ever let Russia own the straits ..
    1. +19
      2 October 2017 07: 59
      Well, yes, Russia itself would take them and own it, as well as the rest of its territory.
      1. +3
        2 October 2017 10: 02
        thanks for the consistency.
        returned to "is there power to own the Straits or not?" and other acquisitions in eastern Europe
        Who's stopping now from building 5 thousand kilometers of roads and 300 schools a year ??? and then who prevented them from arriving in Berlin in 2 years? - enemy strength or weakness ???
      2. +4
        2 October 2017 12: 58
        Quote: Cartalon
        Well, yes, Russia itself would take them and own it, as well as the rest of its territory.

        Yeah ... now how. Once we tried to insist on our own in the Balkans. As a result, Russia dipped its nose into reality at the Berlin Congress.
        1. +2
          2 October 2017 14: 21
          I do not understand point-blank all agreements on the division of the colonies were fulfilled, in Russia they wouldn’t give anything, thereby guaranteeing the creation of a Russian-German pact and World War II in a very sad configuration for Britain.
    2. +1
      2 October 2017 11: 20
      Quote: parusnik
      No one would ever let Russia own the straits ..

      But what, everything that has grown territorially to RI, and then the USSR, was presented to her on a silver platter?
      1. +1
        2 October 2017 11: 48
        The Britons - the main power of the 18-20 centuries. They were all moved before them, as they rested on them. - LOST AND THE RI AND THE USSR AS A HEDgehog IN THE FOG.
        objectively: the Britons were not allowed to cross the lines of Portsmouth-Gibraltar-Suez-Bombay
        now others are pushing-- geography, however
        1. +2
          2 October 2017 14: 23
          In 1920, the United Kingdom abandoned the two-state standard, compared with this straits is utter nonsense.
        2. +2
          2 October 2017 14: 23
          In 1920, the United Kingdom abandoned the two-state standard, compared with this straits is utter nonsense.
  4. +1
    2 October 2017 08: 22
    But ... during the First World War, Turkey was considered a minor adversary in Russia. The lack of political will of the state leadership and high-mindedness of the high command are the main reasons for the lack of implementation of the Bosporus operation.


    Perhaps the reason was different.

    «France promises "a benevolent attitude of the government of the republic in resolving the question of Constantinople and the straits, in accordance with the wishes of Russia. With the proviso that this issue, as well as other issues that interest France and England in the East and elsewhere ... will find their final resolution in the peace treaty". Note by the French Embassy on March 8, 1915

    First of all, the lack of clarity in resolving the issue, and the fate of the straits. The allies did not guarantee Russia that the Straits and Constantinople would become Russian territories. It also played a role in determining the main opponent.
    1. +19
      2 October 2017 09: 00
      “France promises a“ benevolent attitude by the government of the republic in resolving the question of Constantinople and the straits, in accordance with the wishes of Russia. With the caveat that this issue, as well as other issues that interest France and England in the East and elsewhere ... will find their final resolution in the peace treaty. " Note by the French Embassy on March 8, 1915

      March 8th
      16. 04. 1915 it was possible to reach agreement on the accession to Russia of the area of ​​the Straits and Constantinople - on the basis of the conditions specified in the English memorial note - and from France. In response, the Russian government agreed to the Allies for any compensation at the expense of the Ottoman Empire.

      And this is April 16th. That is, after a month with a small question, France was withdrawn. The British agreed on March 12th.
      When bringing the war to a victorious end, while satisfying similar territorial wishes of Great Britain and France, the Straits and Constantinople theoretically became Russian.
      And of course, with a clear vision of the issue and energy, all the omissions were overcome
      1. +3
        2 October 2017 10: 20
        Quote: BRONEVIK
        When bringing the war to a victorious end, while satisfying similar territorial wishes of Great Britain and France, the Straits and Constantinople theoretically became Russian.


        That's just the point, that theoretically. There are times in many Russian documents of that period, quite a lot of them are published, very often there are interesting clarifications in the text.

        " all these assumptions can only be valid if Russia provides the entire area of ​​the straits, which is the cardinal point of Russian aspirations and the only result that can adequately reward Russia for its great sacrifices in this war. "1916

        or having the same meaning. Therefore, the question arises: did allies believe in Russia or not?
        What was the point of constantly demanding confirmation that the straits would go to Russia? If everything is already decided.
        1. +20
          2 October 2017 10: 37
          What was the point of constantly demanding confirmation that the straits would go to Russia? If everything is already decided.

          Resolved at the diplomatic level.
          But a full-fledged interstate legal agreement was not concluded. I mean - at the level of an international treaty or convention.
          Perhaps this is the case.
          Although, as historical experience shows, often generally unspoken agreements carry more actual weight than contracts
          1. +3
            2 October 2017 10: 50
            Quote: BRONEVIK
            But a full-fledged interstate legal agreement was not concluded. I mean - at the level of an international treaty or convention.


            That is the point. The French tried to tie the issue of the straits to the peace treaty that the British planned to conclude after the war, to relations in Persia. How this would be decided after the war, in the event Russia did not leave the war and victory, is not known. And Italy also wanted to participate in the "pie" section. They shared "the skin of an unkilled bear."
            1. +20
              2 October 2017 10: 59
              Shared "the skin of an unkilled bear

              Of course it is, but for that the allies act to decide what to do with such a skin.
              The fact that the Turkish bear will be killed in 1916 was obvious. After all, Turkey was not only defeated and robbed - this is the only case known to history (as far as I know) when a whole state declared itself bankrupt (1918).
              They would have divided it somehow - in the post-war Versailles system, of course, there were gaps, but none of the Allies of the Entente "seemed to hurt" they offended (I’m silent about the leading players of the block)
              1. 0
                2 October 2017 11: 54
                there was no light of the Straits --- ONLY THAT WE GET ON THE RESULTS OF WAR THAT WE CAN COLLECT FROM ALLIES.
                STRENGTH IS NEEDED AGAINST THE ENEMY. And AGAINST ALLIES AFTER WAR, SO ATTACHED THE VICTORY TO VICTORY
                1. +18
                  2 October 2017 12: 01
                  there was no light of the Straits --- ONLY THAT WE WILL GET ON THE RESULTS OF WAR WHAT WE CAN SAVE FROM ALLIES

                  And against the allies, the force was more than enough. The largest army in Europe with modern combat experience and a beautiful (albeit not so numerous) fleet
                  1. 0
                    2 October 2017 13: 55
                    AND HOW MUCH EQUIPMENT RECEIVED FROM ALLIES - FOR CONFLICT? HOW MUCH DEBT WRAP?
                    - "WRITING FOR CARE FROM N-REGION" and the whole victory
                    1. +10
                      2 October 2017 14: 31
                      There are no more debts than the allies themselves have done, and besides, debt creates interdependence, if anyone shoots the debtor, who will pay?
  5. +5
    2 October 2017 08: 43
    After the 1945 year and before the 1953 year (the death of Stalin), the issue of removing restrictions on the movement of military vessels through the straits was discussed. These restrictions are established, if I am not mistaken, by the Montreux Convention in 1936.
    Quote from Wikipedia (Montreux Convention):
    "During a war in which Turkey does not participate, the straits should be closed to the passage of military vessels of any belligerent power. The Convention eliminated the international strait commission provided for in the Lausanne Convention with the transfer of its functions to the Turkish government."
  6. +5
    2 October 2017 08: 43
    I don’t know about reliability, but they told me that Turkey should have attacked the USSR after the Germans allegedly took Stalingrad, with the date of the invasion specifically indicated. But Stalingrad held on ... on the eve of Day X, the nervous von Papen phoned the leader of the Turkish state and calmly asked, "... so what, are you speaking tomorrow?" Having received an affirmative answer, he relaxed ... and gave a mistake ... "... well, with God! And then we have some complications in Stalingrad." Well, the Turk, remembering Ataturk’s testament to never get involved in wars with an unpredictable ending, gathered the generals and canceled plans for tomorrow.
    1. +8
      2 October 2017 08: 54
      Well, we were lucky with the Turks and the Japanese. More precisely, none of this list wanted to contact us. They were afraid, but respected.
      1. +2
        2 October 2017 11: 24
        Quote: captain
        Well, we were lucky with the Turks and the Japanese.

        We were lucky, first of all with the people, what other people would have endured such hardships.
        1. 0
          2 October 2017 20: 04
          Quote: verner1967
          We were lucky, first of all with the people, what other people would have endured such hardships.

          You certainly could not stand it. smile
          1. +1
            2 October 2017 21: 32
            Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
            You certainly could not stand it.

            are you judging by yourself? wink
  7. The comment was deleted.
    1. +20
      2 October 2017 09: 16
      Well, how not relevant?
      The Straits is the shortest strategic route for ships of the Russian Navy to Syria. Remember the case 2 years ago with Caesar Kunikov?
      Russia's strategic interests depend on the benevolence of the crafty Turks.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. +2
          2 October 2017 14: 33
          Now direct administrative joining of the straits is in principle impossible, too many Turks are there now.
          1. 0
            2 October 2017 16: 31
            always hard
            at 18 in its proportions: the occupation army against the conquered. Q0 in its difficulties - the relationship dr + human rights + see freedom of speech * (why did RI capture the flourishing Istanbul and bring it to the state of a Russian garbage dump in 19 g?)
            in the 20th century it’s understandable, the ISS turned out to be cowardly, otherwise Nick 2 would have taken it and did not grimace. all through the XXX ridge threw.
            V21 in identity with fighters 5 and even 6 fighter planes + air defense + the best nuclear power plants in the world (maybe only 50% of ours) + ???
            all that interferes with the victory of the WB, then the USA + Japan.
  8. +1
    2 October 2017 09: 38
    The agreement of England and France ... and Russia was able to conquer Turkey, occupy and keep under control?
  9. +5
    2 October 2017 09: 51
    Quote: Gransasso
    The agreement of England and France ... and Russia was able to conquer Turkey, occupy and keep under control?

    And how!!!
    In the latter case, under the USSR, Stalin threw in his heart: "... let the Turks pray for the Japanese."
  10. +1
    2 October 2017 09: 56
    Chief of Staff of the second Headquarters, MV Alekseev, who considered the Bosphorus operation an unnecessary undertaking, distracting troops from the main theater. It is not surprising that he in every way sabotaged the implementation of this operation in 1916.
    Churchill was so burnt in the straits of 15 g. that blew the English Channel for 30 years
    where were Geben and Breslau in 15-17 ????? coastal art? Istanbul militia? - all the little things and flowers,
  11. +3
    2 October 2017 10: 31
    Russia used to defeat the Turks, but with great difficulty and great
    losses. All these Plevna, Shipka were not victorious walks.
    And to take, and all the more to keep, Constantinople-Istanbul - is unlikely. stop
    1. +1
      2 October 2017 10: 53
      Yes, and the "partners" would not allow
    2. +1
      2 October 2017 11: 33
      Hold - yes please - the Greeks to help!
      1. 0
        2 October 2017 20: 07
        Quote: Karen
        Hold - yes please - the Greeks to help!

        And the Armenians. smile
    3. 0
      2 October 2017 13: 26
      Did you mean your idle mind
    4. +3
      2 October 2017 20: 07
      Quote: voyaka uh
      Russia used to defeat the Turks, but with great difficulty and great
      losses.

      For the Turks. smile
  12. +1
    2 October 2017 10: 46
    "We will not fight for the Straits": V.I. Lenin, the film "A Man with a Gun."
  13. +3
    2 October 2017 10: 51
    Indeed, seeing something valuable, it is difficult not to convince oneself of the right to possess it (c). The value of controlling the straits was obvious not only to you, but to Turks, as well as Europeans, long ago. But the experience of Gallipoli (Canakkale) makes you think.
    1. 0
      2 October 2017 14: 18
      "seeing something valuable, it's hard not to convince yourself of the right to possess it"

      Good phrase - you need to remember. good
      1. 0
        2 October 2017 14: 20
        You're welcome hi
    2. +1
      2 October 2017 20: 55
      The value of the straits was realized in ancient times and they were controlled by the Troas!
      1. 0
        2 October 2017 22: 29
        Quote: andrewkor
        and they were controlled by Troas!

        But the Trojan war because of what, in your opinion, was? That's it - especially given the fact that Elena was stolen in real life 90 years before this war ... laughing
        1. 0
          3 October 2017 08: 53
          Dear Weiland, this is not a literary circle to discuss the creation of the great Homer. Still mention the film as an argument. Your attack against me is not at all clear, did you decide to show off erudition? The real Triad really controlled the straits, what else do you need?
    3. 0
      7 October 2017 23: 33
      You apparently forgot about 1917 and the occupation of Istanbul))))
  14. +16
    2 October 2017 11: 08
    Great and objective article! To the author - my gratitude for the work done! I want to add on my own behalf that the difficulties with the Bosphorus operation were caused not by the indecision of Nicholas II, but rather by such a negative feature of the Russian Headquarters as excessive caution. Gallipoli-1915 showed the Turks as a skilled and dangerous opponent, plus the threat from Goeben and Breslau, forcing them to seek effective means of neutralizing it. In 1916, the Emperor managed to overcome the stagnation of the Stavka, which resulted in the preparation of the Bosphorus landing operation. Kolchak on the Black Sea neutralized the threat from the Turkish fleet, in November a separate Black Sea Marine Division was formed, under the command of the general. A. A. Svechin. The operation itself was planned for April 1917. If successful, this operation would lead to a break in the Turkish branch of Germany’s fuel and food supply. But ... at the end of February 1917, as per order riots began in Petrograd, and a rebellion was launched against the Emperor.
    1. +2
      2 October 2017 12: 52
      A simplified compilation of well-known facts that gives nothing for a real understanding of the issue.
      1. +16
        2 October 2017 16: 55
        For a real understanding of the issue, it is necessary to remember that the Bosphorus operation was frustrated due to the coup, caused by the fact that the conspirators, after their British curators, realized that another 1,5-2 months and their efforts would go to waste. Due to the fact that after the capture of the straits, the war will in fact be won. Starving and freezing Germany will not last long after that. And Nicholas II will go down in Russian history as the Victor and as the emperor who took Constantinople. And after that, he will have a huge credit for popularity - he will be able to do whatever he wants without fear of killing by the elite. Because no one will believe in the "apoplexy blow by the snuffbox", and any organization committing an act of terrorism against the tsar will sign a death sentence for themselves - people will execute lynching after this. And this also means that Guchkov’s dreams of power, Ruzsky’s dreams of glory and influence, and the mother of Grand Duke Cyril about regency with his son on the throne would have ended with the success of the Bosphorus operation.
        1. +1
          2 October 2017 20: 32
          Lieutenant! My gratitude to you for the beautifully written fragment of the altistory, which, however, like the article, is completely far from the actual coverage of the problem. But from the heart.
          But Mr. Oleinikov’s article didn’t get any better from it, as it was, it remained.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. +18
            2 October 2017 21: 59
            Curious
            a beautifully written fragment of the altistory, which, however, like the article, is completely far from the actual coverage of the problem. But Mr. Oleinikov’s article didn’t get any better from it, as it was, it remained.

            Dear Curious, after a recent fiasco with Austro-German sources - when you thoughtlessly (or intentionally) reported German losses by an Austrian source (without seeing it in the eye) - what should be the price of your insinuations and assessments?
            Probably about the same as that of the connoisseur of the subtle style - the teacher of literature of Mauritius, who begins his speeches this way: No, no, no ...
            This article is obvious that twice the opportunity to establish itself in the Straits was missed. Section History and we are talking about history.
            And in relation to the events under consideration - do not believe the author of this article, so explore the historiography of the issue yourself.
            And no altistory
          3. +13
            2 October 2017 23: 01
            Really, it’s not worth gratitude, I like an alternative story, I even write a little in this genre myself. I definitely do not understand what you mean by real coverage of the problem? The article is called "Lost Straits." Mr. Oleinikov in full accordance with the name describes the missed opportunities to occupy the Straits, so the essence of your claim remains a mystery.
            1. +1
              2 October 2017 23: 12
              By the way, I also like to read something light, without fanaticism.
              If we return to our question, do you really think that during the First and Second World War the Russian Empire and the USSR had real chances to occupy the Black Sea Straits and they were missed?
              1. +17
                2 October 2017 23: 26
                Do you really think that during the First and Second World War the Russian Empire and the USSR had real chances to occupy the Black Sea Straits and they were missed?

                Of course
                With reference to the WWI, for example, Rear Admiral Bubnov writes about this, as well as historians (for example, Kersnovsky, often quoted by you), including Soviet ones.
                This is the subject of discussion - instead of statements such as "far from real coverage of the problem."
                Go deep into the question - nothing is built on a bare spot
                1. +1
                  3 October 2017 00: 20
                  Dear Soldier! I, rightly, am grateful to you for the advice, I will certainly use it when I consider it necessary. Regarding my debacle, it is only in your thoughts. I will tell you a terrible secret - Mr. Oleinikov also used Austrian sources. And what you did not like about this seven-volume edition is hard to say. Well, the reproach about "not seen" in relation to the discussions on the VO site can only make laugh. Do you often visit archives yourself?
                  1. +17
                    3 October 2017 06: 47
                    Curious
                    [quote] [Dear Soldier! I, right word, am grateful to you for the advice, I will certainly use it when I consider it necessary. Regarding my debacle, it is only in your thoughts. I will tell you a terrible secret - Mr. Oleinikov also used Austrian sources. And what you did not like about this seven-volume edition is hard to say. Well, the reproach about "not seen" in relation to the discussions on the VO site can only make laugh. Do you often visit archives yourself? / Quote]
                    Mr. Curius
                    Really, not worth the gratitude
                    But the fiasco is not in my thoughts, but in reality.
                    I have the Reichsarchive, as well as the Austrian Kriegsarhive. And I will tell you a terrible secret, why you are not familiar with the first, and with the second - maybe yes.
                    It is IMPOSSIBLE to find the Reichsarchive on the Internet - in order to reach it, you need to work in Lenin or Istorichka and translate the text from Gothic German into ordinary German, and only then into Russian. Therefore, you have not seen him in the eye.
                    But the Krigsarchive on the internet is (albeit deeply conspiratorial) and compiled in ordinary German.
                    There is no loss in the East Prussian operation in the Kriegsarhive, and you deceived, claiming the opposite. But in the Reichsarchive they are.
                    I really like the krigsarchive - as a source from the database of the Austro-Hungarian army.
                    So you do not need to discover the fake secrets which you yourself do not know, carrying nonsense.
                    And I’m in the archives - in particular, in the RGVIA. And I would really like to see you and consider the Kriegsarhive together laughing hi
                    1. 0
                      3 October 2017 07: 07
                      It is good that you often visit archives. I would love to join you, but, unfortunately, now I do not have such an opportunity. If I understand your comment correctly, you are familiar with the German language ..
                      Translate. "Osterreich-Ungarns letzer Krieg 1914-1918. Bd. I-VII. Wien, 1930-1938."
                      1. +17
                        3 October 2017 07: 24
                        Curious
                        It is good that you often. I would love to join you, but, unfortunately, I don’t have such an opportunity now.

                        Not a second doubted.
                        Translate. "Osterreich-Ungarns letzer Krieg 1914-1918. Bd. I-VII. Wien, 1930-1938."

                        Osterreich-Ungarns letzer Krieg - what else can we talk about. I am familiar with the Gothic font a little. But I'm not going to do tutoring, and you will translate these few words yourself.
                        This is how the titles of the Reichsarchive and Kriegsarchive look, respectively

                        And here's another thing - BOTH of these materials belong to PUBLISHED sources. You do not need to work with them in the archive - they are in libraries. Accordingly, the mention of these PUBLISHED sources in conjunction with work in the ARCHIVES speaks of deep ignorance.
                        End this useless Curius conversation and wasting time
              2. +13
                2 October 2017 23: 42
                Yes, I am sure that during the years of WWII Russia had a real opportunity to occupy the Straits, since the fleet's capabilities by 1917 made it possible to ensure the transfer and supply of the landing corps to Constantinople. Yes, and the Russian army had experience fighting the Turks, as was the development of naval assault during the Trebizond operation.
                I can not say about the USSR, due to the fact that the question of establishing control over the Black Sea Straits during the Great Patriotic War never studied.
                1. +3
                  3 October 2017 00: 48
                  Tell me, why didn’t the Dardanelles operation succeed? Or do you think that it is easier to go through the Bosphorus to Istanbul than through the Dardanelles?
                  But suppose, purely theoretically, that in 1917 it was possible to land an assault and he even captured Istanbul. Are you sure that Turkey, in the wake of the rise that followed the victory at Gallipoli, would immediately capitulate? And if not? Where to get resources to continue? Indeed, without forcing Turkey to surrender, this whole undertaking did not make sense at all. And the state of the army and the economy by 1917 was far from brilliant. And the Germans and the Austrians would hardly have given the opportunity to remove something from the front.
                  I'm not talking about the meaning of all this action, since without control of the exit from the Dardanelles the straits turn into a bottle. There is an entrance - there is no exit. Perhaps this movement made sense to carry out 100 years or even more earlier. And after the Crimean War of 1853-1856. there were no more chances.
                  Therefore, I propose to take a break for sleep. If you consider it possible, we will continue tomorrow.
                  1. +19
                    3 October 2017 06: 54
                    Curious
                    [quote] Tell me, why did not the Dardanelles operation succeed? Or do you think that it is easier to go through the Bosphorus to Istanbul than through the Dardanelles? / Quote]
                    Study the literature yourself with the reasons for the failure - the missed opportunities of the Allies, multiplied by the features of the current period of World War II. One failure does not mean that at another time and in another place everything will happen again as well.
                    Strategists and historians (including Soviet ones) say that there were chances.
                    Take the trouble to study the sources and literature on the topic.
  15. +3
    2 October 2017 11: 31
    in the article several times the straits are called almost a global problem ..
    Control over the Straits is control over Europe, and therefore over the whole world.

    Thanks to the climate, Russia has always sought to have access to territories with a favorable climate and ice-free ports (however, everyone is eager)
    Having received this after a series of wars, we found ourselves in a situation that still needs control over the exit from the inland sea to another inland sea.
    And there we look who controls. Those same people (WB then) Problems would remain. Access to the oceans would still be incomplete.
    With Turkey, through wars, managed to get the territory, but not the straits.
    We already had such a war for ice-free ports in the emerging center of world trade at the beginning of the 20 century. Everything is usually decided by the support of world powers. If they do not mind or they are not interested, then you can. If they are sharply opposed, problems begin. And the partners are mainly maritime powers .. They are more handy at sea than on land.
    1. 0
      2 October 2017 11: 59
      agree
      antivirus 3 Today, 11:48
      The Britons - the main power of the 18-20 centuries. They were all moved before them, as they rested on them. - LOST AND THE RI AND THE USSR AS A HEDgehog IN THE FOG.
      objectively: the Britons were not allowed to cross the lines of Portsmouth-Gibraltar-Suez-Bombay
      now others are pushing-- geography, however
      Reply Quote Complaint
    2. +10
      2 October 2017 13: 07
      Quote: Catherine II
      Thanks to the climate, Russia has always sought to have access to territories with a favorable climate and ice-free ports (however, everyone is eager)
      Having received this after a series of wars, we found ourselves in a situation that still needs control over the exit from the inland sea to another inland sea.
      And there we look who controls. Those same people (WB then) Problems would remain. Access to the oceans would still be incomplete.

      So the Straits were not needed for access to the ocean. The straits were needed primarily to solve two problems: military and economic.
      The military consisted of turning the Black Sea into the Russian Sea and reducing the coastal defense forces required to defend the bases on it. It’s easier to put a powerful cork than to strengthen all the walls of a bottle. smile
      And the economic one was that it was through the Straits that the main export flow of the Empire went:
      Freedom of navigation through the Straits, - S.D. noted in his memorandum addressed to the emperor of May 27 (June 9), 1914. Sazonov - is of paramount importance for Russia. It is enough to indicate that in 1910, through the ports of the Black and Azov Seas, it was exported from Russia:
      wheat - 277 110 000 poods.
      rye - 33 877 000 poods.
      barley - 215 poods.
      oats - 6 poods.
      Total 532 poods.
      which amounts to 1910 poods for the total amount of export of these breads in the same 743, more than 777%. It should be noted that, according to the explanatory note of the Minister of Finance on the draft state list of income and expenses for 000, Russia's trade balance in 70 was 1914 million less in comparison with the average surplus for previous years. Such a decrease occurred, according to the Minister of Finance, due to the insufficiently satisfactory sale of the crop, due, among other things, to the temporary closure of the Dardanelles for ships of all nations during the Italo-Turkish war.

      In fact, 70% of the grain export of the Empire depended on a country unfriendly to it, and also with an unstable political situation. A familiar situation, isn't it? wink
  16. +1
    2 October 2017 12: 53
    Worn with these straits like with a written shell, well, what happened next, Suez and Gibraltar? One mousetrap leads to another.
    1. +13
      2 October 2017 17: 12
      And then we would get unhindered trade with Southern Europe and the opportunity to threaten the Mediterranean bases of Britain and, most importantly, the prospects for the blockade of Suez, which in the event of a possible war would seriously complicate the lives of the British and make them respect the interests of Russia.
      1. +1
        2 October 2017 18: 33
        Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
        And then we would get unhindered trade with southern Europe

        And this is the main point. To make 70% of grain exports dependent on the policies of the Great Port is to play with fire. Any war in Turkey, even in which Russia does not participate in any way - and hello, the closed Straits.
        Although, according to the mind, given relations with Turkey, it was necessary to gradually reorient the flow to the northern ports. But who wants to lose profits - changing equipped ports with railways, granaries, grain berths and a merchant fleet (besides being located at the side of the main grain producers) to the Baltic or the North, where all this will still need to be built, and wherever grain is needed still bring (and this is an extra cost, which can not be covered by rising grain prices).
        Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
        and the opportunity to threaten the Mediterranean bases of Britain and, most importantly, the prospects of the blockade of Suez, which in the event of a probable war would seriously complicate the life of the British and make them respect the interests of Russia.

        And we would also get a situation in which we would have to defend only one base in the Straits, where even mortars and howitzers are effective in coastal defense. And not a scattering of ports along the entire coast of the World Cup, each of which cannot be strengthened to counter more or less serious forces. In the PMV, Novorossiysk, which was left without cover, was almost destroyed as a result of shelling from a mine cruiser (Burke) and KRL (Breslau). But there were still ports of the Sea of ​​Azov (through which the Allies walked with fire and sword during the Crimean).
      2. +4
        3 October 2017 07: 27
        Real threats require a means of realizing these threats. I mean, the fleet. But it was harder with him in those days
  17. +17
    2 October 2017 13: 05
    In solving strategic problems, we are alone
    And what will happen tomorrow - time will tell

    Thanks for the interesting article
  18. +17
    2 October 2017 13: 32
    The article is very relevant given the meeting between Putin and Erdogan. The author is right, Turkey and I will not be strong allies. Only temporary companions. There are so many contradictions. Thanks to the author.
  19. +1
    2 October 2017 13: 57
    The Englishwoman as a crap, and will crap.
    1. 0
      2 October 2017 16: 32
      they and others have their own interests
  20. +19
    2 October 2017 14: 44
    Often we do not pay attention to the fact that under the nose
    So did the Straits - for 300 years they did nothing, and there were opportunities
    control over the Straits and Constantinople should belong to Russia and Greece

    Definitely. Better - Russia. wink
    Another resort, abruptly Crimea - ours will be laughing.
    They have a plane with us - and we have Constantinople good And a monument to Oleg Anatolyevich Peshkov in it.
    And the collapse of Turkey in the interests of Russia - at least there will be no place for a NATO fleet.
  21. +1
    2 October 2017 16: 03
    I never could understand why these straits are for us. That the north (Kattegat, Skagerak), that the south (Bosphorus, Dardanelles). "Well, you struck your head with a wall, and what will you do in the next cell?" (S.E. Lets) .....
    1. +1
      2 October 2017 17: 23
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      I never could understand why these straits are for us. That the north (Kattegat, Skagerak), that the south (Bosphorus, Dardanelles). "Well, you struck your head with a wall, and what will you do in the next cell?" (S.E. Lets) .....

      Well, if not completely dumb, then punch the next wall. “By the way, the area of ​​your cell has doubled. You can arrange a living room there” (I)
      1. +7
        2 October 2017 17: 57
        Let's arrange a living room wink
      2. +1
        3 October 2017 01: 39
        You will laugh. Maybe before you make a living room from an adjacent cell, put a toilet in your place instead of a bucket?
    2. +5
      2 October 2017 18: 39
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      I never could understand why these straits are for us. That the north (Kattegat, Skagerak), that the south (Bosphorus, Dardanelles).

      Money. Making bread exports dependent on Turkish politics is not a wise decision. Turks clung to the same Italians - and that’s all, the Straits are closed, exports fell, incomes fell. Moreover, Russia is in no way side by side with this mess - and it is to suffer it.
      1. 0
        3 October 2017 01: 30
        And Murmansk is no longer a port?
        1. 0
          3 October 2017 10: 44
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          And Murmansk is no longer a port?

          Murmansk is not a port until 1916.
          The first prospectors came to Murman to explore new places in 1912. Three years later, in 1915, during the First World War, on the right bank of the Kola Bay of the Barents Sea, the Murmansk seaport was founded and with it the port village of Semenovsky, named for the bay where the marinas were built, and the nearest lake.

          The official Act on the acceptance for temporary operation of the Murmansk Railway was signed on November 15, 1916.
  22. The comment was deleted.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. 0
        2 October 2017 18: 24
        Well, the school you see is not over yet, study farther, as long as there are mugs of thoughts in mute.
        1. +4
          2 October 2017 18: 29
          You go there, wise guy
          1. 0
            2 October 2017 19: 03
            Quote: Serge72
            You go there, wise guy

            "No, better you are to us" (Biriant hand, just kidding)
    2. 0
      2 October 2017 18: 58
      So, this one, continue?
      The Bosphorus connects the Black Sea with the Marmara Sea, and the Dardanelles connects the European part of Turkey (the Gallipoli peninsula) and the Asian (north-western part of Asia Minor), the Sea of ​​Marmara with the Aegean Sea.
      Like a century ago, the Straits remain the center of world geopolitics. And the centuries-old interest of Russia, the Black Sea power, in their status is logical - the question of the fate of the Straits was and is of great importance for the Russian economy and foreign policy
      .
      1. a) The Bosphorus connects the Black Sea with the Marmara, (water)
      b) where is the land? or "wrapped a fish here"? (Raikin, just in case)
      2. a) Dardanelles connect the Sea of ​​Marmara with the Aegean (water)
      b) connects the European part of Turkey (Gallipoli Peninsula) and the Asian (northwestern part of Asia Minor) (land)
      Figure it out! And decide what you wanted to say, heartfelt. Straits cannot connect both the sea and the land. Straits connect the seas, naturally, and divide the coast. But once you write about the hordes, then unapproach geography, you have two on it, as well as on history.
      3. Straits remain the center of world geopolitics. And the age-old interest of Russia is logical,
      a) I repeat - the Straits are the center of world geopolitics as much as they are a noose on our throat. Tomorrow we turn to China and the value of the straits for world geopolitics will be = 0.
      b) Russia has an interest in straits, like a dog has a leash (wrong, a chain). Put yourself in the shoes of a dog and write a peppy article about the cunning of Russia. You will be counted.
      1. +15
        15 October 2017 08: 35
        Mavrikiy October 2, 2017 18:58 ↑
        So, this one, continue?

        Go on
        The Bosphorus connects the Black Sea with the Marmara Sea, and the Dardanelles connects the European part of Turkey (the Gallipoli peninsula) and the Asian (north-western part of Asia Minor), the Sea of ​​Marmara with the Aegean Sea.

        All right
        Straits remain the center of world geopolitics. And the age-old interest of Russia is logical

        Turn around, don't turn around:
        a) Economics;
        b) Defense capability of the South of Russia
        You will be counted.

        You have already conceived
  23. +17
    2 October 2017 17: 58
    Thanks to the author!
    It is written interestingly and two world wars in conjunction hi
    1. 0
      2 October 2017 18: 26
      [quote = Serge72] Thanks to the Author!
      Go to school, go there and talk about the third interestingly.
      1. +5
        2 October 2017 18: 31
        Mavrikiy
        Go to school, go there and talk about the third interestingly.

        You teach everyone, but what you wrote yourself, you won’t understand without a liter.
        Or do you already write under a liter?
        I can offer an excellent tool for cleaning the entire body, and not just the brain - an enema with ski. They say it helps - even techies wink
        1. +3
          2 October 2017 18: 35
          A good word is skip gift, but it has been reduced
        2. 0
          2 October 2017 19: 38
          Quote: Serge72
          Mavrikiy
          Go to school, go there and talk about the third interestingly.

          You teach everyone, but what you wrote yourself, you won’t understand without a liter.
          Or do you already write under a liter?
          I can offer an excellent tool for cleaning the entire body, and not just the brain - an enema with ski. They say it helps - even techies wink

          Offended, small. Sorry. And to teach, problems with spiders, too, have grown. Well, skipper, this is according to your deport, be-be-be-be.
          You teach everyone, but what you wrote yourself, you won’t understand without a liter.
          Or do you already write under a liter?
          "Where is the logic, brother?" ( what, of course, liters and girls to you, and to us, just to not get our feet wet, weather-s)
  24. 0
    2 October 2017 18: 56
    Because not ours. That Turkish. However, now it’s just right to say, not yours.
  25. +1
    2 October 2017 19: 29
    Distracted.
    During the First World Control of the Straits of Turkey, this was also the main opportunity for Russia to implement military-technical cooperation with its allies. After all, the entry of Turkey into the war on the side of the German bloc automatically put Russia (very interested in regular military-technical cooperation with the allies) in an almost complete (except for Vladivostok and Arkhangelsk with Murmansk) blockade.
    That seems to be written correctly, but stupid. You can exclude one, Petya, Vasya or Kolya. And when we exhaust everyone .... funny. And you need to say that before that, about logistics and everything immediately falls into place. Is not it so?
    1. +15
      15 October 2017 08: 36
      That seems to be written correctly, but stupid.

      Decide
      Is it right or stupid?
      But no more stupid than this comment
      Is not it so?
  26. +17
    2 October 2017 20: 47
    Thanks to the author and the site for the interesting story.
  27. 0
    2 October 2017 22: 33
    Quote: Catherine II
    Access to the oceans would still be incomplete.

    This task did not stand. Who controls the Crimea and the Straits - controls the entire Mediterranean Sea.
    1. +1
      2 October 2017 22: 54
      Quote: Weyland
      Quote: Catherine II
      Access to the oceans would still be incomplete.

      This task did not stand. Who controls the Crimea and the Straits - controls the entire Mediterranean Sea.



      A bold statement ...... can you clarify your original idea a bit?
  28. +3
    2 October 2017 23: 54
    A somewhat provocative article ...
  29. +5
    3 October 2017 00: 24
    We have had plans to capture the straits since the start of the implementation of the Black Sea Fleet restoration program. The three unique Sinope and St. George the Victorious in terms of the location of the GK artillery cannot be explained by anything else. The attack of the forts and, very, a possible battle with the English in narrowness in the absence of freedom of maneuver. But let's go a little further ...
    We capture the straits, even with Istanbul, call it back at least Constantinople, at least Constantinople - then what? Further, the southern tip of the Dardanelles would not have been able to get out. For a very simple reason - the lack of a fleet. On the shore it was possible to gain a bunch of feats and victories, but the main task - the free use of the straits was not provided. The fleets of the former "allies" on the same Mudros or Lemnos would not give us a chance to pop out. Yes, the "allies" would not be "shined" to enter back even into the Marmara, even into the Black Sea. But! They would have no reason for them in this situation. And together with a deep, very large puddle called the Black Sea, we would get two more intestines with a bubble in the middle. With a hostile population and other amenities along the coast. Alas, we did not have a fleet that could already provide our regime of straits.
    Our merchant shipping through the same straits would be entirely under enemy control. However, as them - by us. But, what the so-called great powers (at that time) might have had interests in the Black and Azov Seas, for the sake of which they would have given up principles.
    The capture of the Straits was possible, no doubt, moreover, twice, at least. But the final effect and consequences - what? Although the benefits, with due diplomatic agreement and the involvement of all the "interested parties" in biting the pie, could be great. But I didn’t read something about that ...
  30. +1
    3 October 2017 07: 37
    soldier,
    I agree that for nothing. But I did not start this discussion. You tried all the time to convict me of the fact that I do not work in archives, although I have never said that I work in them anywhere. So this battle of yours with windmills is exclusively your initiative. Out of politeness, I supported you so that you don’t wave a saber.
    1. +17
      3 October 2017 07: 44
      Curious
      I agree that for nothing. But I did not start this discussion. You tried all the time to convict me of the fact that I do not work in archives, although I have never said that I work in them anywhere. So this battle of yours with windmills is exclusively your initiative. Out of politeness, I supported you so that you don’t wave a saber.

      It’s just that you don’t have to deceive what the Austrian source says about the Germans' losses in malware (if you don’t know) - and everything will be fine.
      Thanks for your support laughing hi
      1. +1
        3 October 2017 12: 13
        To your health! I'm glad I helped you convince yourself. True, we talked about different sources.
        1. +17
          3 October 2017 13: 23
          Curious
          True, we talked about different sources.

          Just not
          Osterreich-Ungarns letzer Krieg 1914-1918 - exists in a single version.
          We talked about ONE source.
          So we found out:
          1) You did not see the Reichsarchive (in which there are losses of the Germans in the East Prussian operation);
          2) Kriegsarhiv (Osterreich-Ungarns letzer Krieg 1914-1918) - also did not open, because they claimed that there were losses of the German 8th army in the East Prussian operation. They are not there - only Austrian troops and their military way to WWI.
          That is, as Iosif Vissarionovich said, they were rubbing glasses, and now you are getting out.
          All the best, dear
          hi
          1. 0
            4 October 2017 11: 47
            Still, do not calm down in attempts to nail me to the shameful pillar, although you yourself stubbornly ascribe to me acts that I did not commit. I never once referred to the Reichs and the Kriegsarhivs, and I never said that I saw them.
            And what you call the krigsarchive (Osterreich-Ungarns letzer Krieg 1914-1918) is the seven-volume edition “The Last War of Austria-Hungary”, issued by the Federal Ministry of the First Austrian Republic. To call this book Kriegsarhiv is the same as to call the book "Russia in the First World War. 1914-1918: Encyclopedia: In 3 vols." Archive of the Ministry of Defense.
            1. +16
              4 October 2017 17: 28
              Dear Curius, no one is nailing anyone anywhere.
              the same as the title of the book "Russia in the First World War. 1914–1918: Encyclopedia: In 3 vols." Archive of the Ministry of Defense.

              A "Russia in the First World War. 1914-1918: Encyclopedia: In 3 vols." nobody calls the Ministry of Defense archives
              And Osterreich-Ungarns letzer Krieg 1914-1918 is called Kriegsarhiv materials. Not by the Archive, but by the materials of the Austrian Kriegsarchive.
              Yes, it’s not the point, but the fact that you didn’t open the Osterreich-Ungarns letzer Krieg 1914-1918, but Taldychil that there were German losses in it in the East Prussian operation.
              That is, they cheated a little, but often criticize others, “put them to a shameful pillar”. Here I’m talking about - that criticism is not so maximalist, especially when khe-khe ... and I’m not perfect myself.
              That's just it
              1. +1
                4 October 2017 21: 10

                Only I use the English translation, for in German "nicht förstein".
                Read, for the sake of interest, and you will understand that the book has the same relation to the Reichsarchive. as "History of the Great Patriotic War" in 6 volumes to the archive of the Ministry of Defense.
                In the book, of course, the main attention is paid to the military operations of Austria-Hungary, but there is a lot of information about other participants in the WWII, an assessment of the causes of the war. state of the armed forces, plans of the parties, etc. The view from the other side is always interesting. By the way, there are many references to Russian and Soviet sources.
                There is also an analysis of the losses of member countries. even Japan.
                As for the losses of the Germans. I didn’t find this figure, although under your pressure I reviewed the analysis of the 1914 campaign from cover to cover again. Surprisingly. just acquaintance (so denied by you) with the source did a disservice, because when he saw a link to it, he did not check. What to do, and there are spots on the sun, I'm still not a doctor of historical sciences, defended on the topic of Russia in the WWI, I could be wrong.
                1. +17
                  4 October 2017 21: 44
                  Curious
                  Read, for the sake of interest, and you will understand that the book has the same relation to the Reichsarchive. as "History of the Great Patriotic War" in 6 volumes to the archive of the Ministry of Defense.

                  Dear Curious - Of course this material is not related to the Reichsarchive. Last published in Germany. It is precisely the East Prussian operation.
                  Confused just for sure.
                  But this material, although it is not an archive itself, was compiled from archival data. Written - compiled according to the Ministry of War and the Kriegsarchive. You see the word Kriegsarchive on the title page - as it is sometimes briefly called.
                  As for the losses of the Germans. I didn’t find this figure, although under your pressure I reviewed the analysis of the 1914 campaign from cover to cover again.

                  All right.
                  Surprisingly. just acquaintance (so denied by you) with the source did a disservice

                  But it did us a good job with you - according to the history of the participation of Austria-Hungary in the war, we use one source.
                  and there are spots on the Sun, I'm still not a doctor of historical sciences, defended on the topic of Russia in WWI, I could be wrong

                  Doctors of sciences are also mistaken - such is life. And sometimes they are mistaken more seriously than not doctors. By the way
                  The topic is exhausted.
                  Shake your hand
                  1. +1
                    4 October 2017 21: 52
                    As one battleship once said: "The meeting was held in an atmosphere of friendship, cordiality and complete mutual understanding."
                    1. +17
                      4 October 2017 21: 56
                      This is exactly
                      The only way good drinks
                      hi