Military Review

How Solonin proletariat enlightened. Part of 6

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Assessing the possibilities of combat use of German lungs tanks in the war against the Soviet Union, I have no right to sidestep the firepower of their Soviet "brothers" in the class. Even the “yesterday” T-26 tank (at the beginning of the Second World War was the most massive in the Red Army) defended the homeland with a very weighty “sword” - a 45-mm cannon. In view of this, one can easily take for granted the following: “Soviet light tanks were armed with at least a 45 mm cannon” (p. 187).


How Solonin proletariat enlightened. Part of 6


Light amphibious tanks T-37A, T-38 and T-40 (on 1 June 1941, they were counted in the Red Army 2331, 1129 and 160 units, respectively) "at least" were machine guns. These include most of the "lightweight" BT-2 (position on the same date in the army was 594 "high-speed tank" of this type). The gun version of this combat vehicle had a 37-mm gun.

But in the "Brainstorming" is not so simple ... Our armored "amphibians" fall into the whirlpool of the Soloninsky "classification" along with the BT-2 tank: "23 268 tanks (including 3607 T-37 / T-38 tank guns / T-xnumx). If we take it very hard (excluding all machine-gun tanks and outdated BT-40), then 2 17 of real tanks is recruited ”(p. 806). These samples of armored vehicles, Mark Semenovich, even though he refers to the tank fleet of the Red Army (the number of vehicles that made it really “overloaded” for 181 23 units before the start of the Great Patriotic War), but does not see them as full-fledged members of the “family”. They seem to be as it is, but when necessary, it is not a sin to deprive them of attention ... Tank “racism” of Corned beef in action!

The attitude of the BA-10 Soviet armored car would be much better than the same armored tankettes (read further in the text): “The BA-10 armored car (a three-axle off-road vehicle covered with anti-bullet armor was quite comparable with a light tank for armament and booking) and armed with a standard light tank turret with an 45-mm cannon). These undeservedly forgotten armored vehicles were 3361 units. ”

The complex of tasks performed armored car is similar to a light tank, but such a comparison is not always legitimate ... A tank is a machine that can not only fire on the enemy, having a certain degree of protection from return fire, but also make the most of its "dignity "On any terrain and at any time of the year. All the armored cars in the Red Army, with which the war found it, were created on the basis of ordinary, civilian wheeled vehicles, and did not have all-terrain qualities. The young country of workers and peasants only recently created its automobile industry, and the hostile environment, as if the liberals did not like to make fun of Soviet propaganda for the "imperialists" invented by it, forced in many respects to take "emergency" measures.

The chassis of the three-axle truck GAZ-AAA (rear wheel cart reduced ground pressure, which ensured high traffic, as for commercial vehicles) became the basis of the BA-10 - the most successful and massive Soviet medium-sized pre-war armored car. The engine is the same as that of the “worker” of the national economy - the GAZ-М1 horsepower 50. If the truck GAZ-AAA has developed a maximum speed on the highway 65 km / h, then its combat modification, being heavier almost doubled, - 53 km / h.

Uncle Mark's violent fantasy, which we are not facing at first, prevented him from correctly calculating the total number of BA-10 armored cars in the troops at the time of the start of Operation Barbarossa. The number indicated by Solonin (3361 unit) is not correct because during the years of production, namely from 1938 to August 1941 of the year, these machines produced 3311 units. In addition, BA-10 participated in the battles of Khalkhin-Gol and in the Soviet-Finnish war.

On the armored cars of Germany, which entered the Second World War as the largest automobile power in Europe, the author of "Brainstorming" modestly silent, so fill this gap. The main advantage of the German wheeled combat vehicles over the Soviet was the presence of all-wheel drive, which made them less dependent on weather conditions and terrain. It is also important and the location of armor plates at significant angles. The characteristic armored hull construction scheme was borrowed by our designers in creating the light machine gun BA-64 (its mass production began in April 1942 of the year).

The most notable German armored car of the invading army seems to be the heavy Sd. Kfz. 231. Each of its 8 wheels not only had its own drive, but was separately controlled, which increased both maneuverability and throughput. The car developed a maximum speed of 80 km / h. The main armament - 20-mm automatic gun.

To be continued ...
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  1. cap
    cap 12 December 2016 09: 45
    0
    To be continued ...


    Zhdems.Only if you disassemble the author on the cover of the book. Another "researcher" "famous" more than once.
  2. Stas57
    Stas57 12 December 2016 10: 16
    +1
    The main advantage of the German wheeled combat vehicles over the Soviet was the presence of

    radio stations, surveillance devices and normal working conditions.
    full of test drive videos of different BAs - such hell and horror for users
  3. Stas57
    Stas57 12 December 2016 10: 31
    +3
    but in general I propose to spread this tex in one paragraph.
    or even a suggestion.
    1. potanot 253
      12 December 2016 12: 59
      0
      Offer accepted)
  4. Bator
    Bator 12 December 2016 11: 41
    0
    Something I don’t understand, why is there a quotation from Rezun who escaped to London and writes from there libelously to Russia under the pseudonym of Suvorov?
  5. Djuma-13
    Djuma-13 12 December 2016 12: 36
    +2
    Isaev well understood Rezuna ... Antisuvorov. The big lies of the little man and the Antisuvors. Ten myths of World War II
  6. Kostya Andreev
    Kostya Andreev 12 December 2016 21: 19
    +1
    The BA-10 was released 3400, on July 22 in the army there were about 2800 units.
    Sd. Kfz. 231 (8-Rad). for the period from 37 to 43 years 600 pieces.,. Could a respected author provide the Sd number. Kfz. 231., which was on the 22nd day, I do not ask on the fronts. And then readers will think that their number was comparable to BA-10. Why is the quantity of Sd.Kfz.231 (6-Rad) (123 pcs) not indicated whose drive was the same as ours.
    Why the author calculates every German machine gun, but for example forgot about BA-3 and there were 140 of them at the beginning of the war., Also, the author forgot about BA-11, 18 pieces. Well, about BA-6, it was not clear what number they were, since they were exported, and they served in the Far East. But according to the author, the USSR armored vehicles were not all-terrain and could not be considered, then the counter proposal, if the German tanks were inferior to ours in cross-country ability and armament, then they could also not be considered. (The author’s approach to evaluating the technology of the warring parties is interesting: our armored cars were not full because it was made on the basis of civilian cars, and the German Condor FV-200 is bad. Converting a passenger airplane into a bomber, the author has weapons that can bomb the Urals, that is, the author uses a different approach, depending on the requirements of the moment, I want to remind the author, that one of the best Spitfire warfare was made on the basis of a sports car.)
    And yet, tell me what kind of armor the German PTR has. about the German armor 30 mm in the T-2, this is additional armor which was installed on the vertical frontal sheet with a thin strip, the rest of the tank’s forehead was full-time.
    About 37 mm, could you please elaborate on who we and the Germans had.
    A significant angle of inclination of the armor plays a role only if the caliber of the armor-piercing projectile does not exceed its thickness, therefore for 20 K there is upright 15 mm armor, which is at an angle without a difference. just like aht-aht versus 34, the projectile normalizes upon meeting. And again you are talking about a 20 mm gun, the BA has 45 mm, this is a long arm that will reach the Germans from extreme distances, and the German should drive up (who will give him) at point-blank range and not the fact that it will strike. yes, even if it does, it’s not a fact that it will cause critical damage and will not receive a gift in return.
    read what tank-accessible terrain is, and you probably don’t know, but there is an instruction manual for the equipment where it says that it can. (at headquarters they read it and accordingly develop tactics for use) and what doesn’t. and no one in their right mind is BA is Sd. Kfz. 231 in the swamps will not be used. The Germans for some reason did not read your theoretical calculations about BA and used them against the Red Army. and from here you can understand that these cars were not as bad as you try to imagine them.

    Sincerely, Vlasov-Rezun-Soloninsky.
    1. potanot 253
      12 December 2016 23: 48
      0
      "BA-10 issued 3400" You have incorrect data. "Could the respected author provide the number of Sd. Kfz. 231., which was on the 22nd, I do not ask on the fronts. Otherwise, readers will think that their number was comparable to BA-10" I can only voice data from the magazine "Bronekollektsiya "for 2007, No. 1 (a very decent popular science publication):" On July 1, 1941, units of the Wehrmacht and SS troops had 390 armored vehicles Sd. Kfz. 231 (basic modification - my note) and Sd.Kfz. 232 (with enhanced radio equipment - MP) "(p. 24). "why the number of Sd.Kfz.231 (6-Rad) (123 pcs) was not indicated, which had the same drive as ours" I did not say that every single German armored vehicle was all-wheel drive. I pointed out the advantages of the German representatives of this type of military equipment (for the most part they had all-terrain qualities) over the Soviet ones. BA-20 is the most massive Soviet light armored car. This is an armored "emka" with a machine gun. Her movement over rough terrain (which you associate only with swamps), as you might guess, also did not meet the requirements of the military. But the "fellow" BA-20 in the class of the Sd. Kfz. 222 was not only 20WD, but also armed with a 961mm automatic cannon. As for the number: "By the beginning of Operation Barbarossa, the German troops numbered 221 armored vehicles Sd. Kfz. 39 (basic modification with an installed anti-tank PzB 222 rifle and machine gun - MP), 223 and 9 (machine gun and enhanced radio equipment - m. etc.) "(p. XNUMX).
      1. Kostya Andreev
        Kostya Andreev 13 December 2016 10: 32
        0
        so, you have proven that 500 German br / aut. armed with a 20mm gun stronger than 3000 Soviet armed with a miserable 45 mm cannon. to further emphasize the superiority of the Germans you need to add trophies from France .. then your arguments will be more convincing. That's what all-wheel drive means. (You can add drama by saying that the caliber of the weapons of the Germans was 7,92 and we have 7,62, with your thrust everything should be taken into account, 3 tenths is an argument.)
        I didn’t understand where the BA-20 is, well, let's talk about him, I didn’t understand why they are brothers, the BA-20 weighs 2,5 tons, and the Germans are heavier, one is almost 5 tons, the other 4. Naturally they will be superior in something. but also in something inferior (a light machine is good in that it can be bluntly pushed out.). it's like comparing 34 and a panther or a tiger.
        We will not even pay attention to the fact that ud / m. BA is higher. before writing about their super cross-country ability, I want to give you an example of a NIVU that weighs 1200 kg and has an engine of 80 hp. Now the question is how should a car weighing 4-5 tons with an engine of such power be driven off-road (in your concept), or rather, on what off-road? if you conduct parallels then the German’s analogue will be BRDM, in those days the USSR didn’t have such, (there simply wasn’t such a need) however there were many means to immobilize them. and why the USSR is it, if there are many things armed from 37 to 152 mm, where others can not handle the machine gun. And BA is, as you rightly noted, emka with a machine gun and you can no longer demand from it.
        Do not take it for impudence, but your constant desire to surprise the PzB 39 fart, make a prodigy, and use it to kill Soviet tanks, armored cars, take an interest in this gun. it is a single-shot rifle firing a bullet with an almost zero armor effect. which can be used only in the vicinity of the enemy, and therefore whoever used it (if he manages to get close) is most likely a corpse. In this bullet, the Germans tried to shove both gas and explosives, and incendiary composition. but the small size of the bullet did not allow it to be done in volumes sufficient to be effective. therefore, they made a mortar for him.
        About the gun 20 mm. Imagine the situation, I’m in a German car with a 20 mm gun, and you are on a slowly accelerating T-26 (it was slowly accelerating because it began to weigh more because the armor grew), but from 45 mm, from what distance are you and me?
        Sincerely, Vlasov-Rezun-Soloninsky.
        1. potanot 253
          13 December 2016 12: 28
          0
          I don’t need to ascribe my mania to extremes ... "But according to the author, the armored vehicles of the USSR were not all-terrain vehicles and they can not be counted" I did not say that they can not be counted! It is necessary, dear, it is necessary, as well as to the respected corned beef, who ignored in his essay the presence of the aggressor's armored vehicles, - to consider the latter. But you have zero claims to him, which is very significant. But to make a moron out of me is a sacred cause! But of course - I encroached on the main icon in your iconostasis - the GREAT and GENIUS Viktor Suvorov! In his books you do not see ANY blooper (and they are made of them)!
        2. potanot 253
          13 December 2016 12: 41
          0
          More extremes attributed to me: "3000 Soviet armed with a pathetic 45 mm cannon" Where did I call the 45 mm 20K tank gun pathetic? "(You can also add drama by saying that the caliber of the weapons of the Germans was 7,92 and ours was 7,62, with your thrust to take everything into account, 3 tenths is an argument.)" You can still add a little reason to your hysteria, and count how much BA-10 was part of various military districts on June 22, 1941.
          1. Kostya Andreev
            Kostya Andreev 13 December 2016 14: 03
            0
            Quote: potanot 253
            how many BA-10 was in the composition of different military districts on June 22, 1941.

            only then do the same count from the Germans! how many stood them against each other. and it is advisable to use something else besides the wiki, although you can believe in this after checking it.
            About 45 mm. you mention a cannon in passing, but about a 20 mm German gun and PTR constantly and still indicate a range of 300 m, giving it off as a plus.
            If my sclerosis doesn’t fail me, then they took into account and compared only tanks (even this was stipulated), and did not take armored cars into account because they did not compare them with each other. (because if you also include them in the composition, then the USSR’s peace loving will be such that you’ll sway. Then there will be even more questions and then the position of the cutter will become even stronger .. In general, it’s difficult to compare them since our br / autos can be carried by German tanks with a big distance, and the German only focus and only if you're lucky.
            Here you have tried! and the information began to give is not complete! it is necessary to sort out how much of that, with that and there. For example, Rezun and Solonin were mistaken because they would hang a plate so that readers could compare and draw conclusions.
            Rezun, compared with us (with me, with you, and with most of the so-called historians who reprint each other's work and are not at all interested in the subject). how unfortunate it is to recognize a genius.
            But he needs to say thanks, because thanks to him, people woke up interest in history.
            And in his books there are mistakes, just as these mistakes are present in the memoirs of participants and historians. so it's okay if you take a book about the official warrior, you can find bloopers there too.
            This comes from ignorance of the subject or forgetfulness, and what a sin to conceal because of the manipulation of facts and their free interpretation.
            on this I say goodbye for work.
            Sincerely, Vlasov-Rezun-Soloninsky.
            1. potanot 253
              13 December 2016 15: 41
              0
              "Only then will you make the same calculation on the part of the Germans!" For the Germans, armored vehicles were distributed among 3 groups of armies, and for us - among the military districts, including, of course, those that were in the Asian part of the USSR. "and it is desirable to use something else in addition to the wiki, although in this after checking it is possible to believe her" Again you are trying to expose me as a moron. I did not take the total number of BA-10 armored cars produced from Wiki, but your number corresponds to the data of the "free encyclopedia" (Kostya Andrei is ready to believe anyone, just not to the damned "anti-cuttingists" who offend Vitenka the Severe). "PTR constantly and still indicate the range of 300 m" As I said in one of the parts of this article, the rifle divisions of the Red Army at the time of the Nazi invasion were not equipped with PTR. You are here trying to prove to me that having a PzB 39 PTR is the same as having nothing. And yes, if you doubt the capabilities of this model of small arms in terms of fighting the same T-26 tank (15 mm of armor in the main armor planes), then about the BA-10 (10 mm each), I think you should not have any illusions ... And how can Soviet infantry companies deal with "swamp" (in your opinion) German armored vehicles? "And in general, it is difficult to compare them, since our br / auto can take out German tanks with a long distance, and German ones only at a stop and only if I'm lucky." Here I can only twirl at my temple. "Rezun, ... how regrettable it is to admit a genius" For people like you, yes. “But he needs to be thanked, because thanks to him people have awakened an interest in history.” My interest in history, and not only was awakened long ago by the multivolume Children's Encyclopedia, published under Khrushchev. These are voluminous volumes that had a yellow cover in Russian and green in Ukrainian. No matter how they scolded his era, they awakened interest in knowledge among the younger generation, and not weakly. I remember one more of your inadequate passage: "Thanks to Viktor Suvorov, we realized that not only German generals were smart, but ours too!" I advise you to reread "Suicide" and "Shadow of Victory", where Zhukov is a feeble-minded thief and a butcher.
              1. Kostya Andreev
                Kostya Andreev 13 December 2016 16: 30
                0
                Ptr is from inescapability, PTR is ersatz and its presence speaks of worthless preparation and provision. PTR was not in the USSR, this is not because they are behind. but because it was not necessary. VET equipment is by definition better, but it costs more and you won’t do it quickly, and the USSR’s losses in guns were enormous (this is like SVT, a great thing but expensive, and therefore the PCA was stamped). and so that at least somehow increase anti-tank capabilities have been developed ptr. (I remember somewhere I read about the 23 mm universal gun, which was not adopted for service.) Well, list the advantages of the PTR compared to the PTO gun.
                try to shoot their ordinary Kalash on board the armored personnel carrier. meters from 10-15. by TTX should break, but not break. I do not argue that the PTR can penetrate (or maybe not penetrate) but at what distance and with what probability.
                And you provide other data on the availability of equipment in the districts, and the Germans would open my eyes so to speak.
                Infantry companies could fight enemy vehicles using anti-tank guns, (although there are no such weapons in the companies of 39-41 years old, but at the divisional level there are 45-mm, 76-mm regiment and division guns, howitzers 122-152- mm howitzers, also anti-aircraft guns, which they can use in defense, and tanks and b / m will fight against them in the offensive, and the flyers will help. so there is something to meet the adversary).
                И in general, it is difficult to compare them, since our br / auto can take out German tanks with a long distance, and the German ones only stop and only if I'm lucky "Here, I can only twirl at my temple[i] [/ i] Before twisting at the temple, look at the armor penetration, the higher it is, the greater the distance you can impose a battle, and thereby reduce the enemy’s advantage in other performance characteristics. and the larger the caliber, the greater the likelihood that a hit will cause critical damage. And the Germans’s sub-caliber projectile was made of their scarce materials, by definition there can’t be many of them, and due to the fact that it was light, it quickly lost speed in flight (armor penetration decreases much over long distances) and it doesn’t penetrate armor located at an angle due to a tendency to ricochet.
                Thank you read. I don’t know about thieves, but it’s unlikely that the butcher is a general, and not brought up in Smolny .. But for me it’s not at all clear why Zhukov is considered the best rather than Rokkosovsky?

                Sincerely, Vlasov-Rezun-Soloninsky.

                I guessed what country you are from, by the flag, maybe you are not far from the Kiev line of the UR. It would be interesting to see the pictures.
                This is how we got a cabal.
            2. potanot 253
              13 December 2016 15: 57
              0
              "Sincerely, Vlasov-Rezun-Soloninsky" Do not repeat your diagnosis three times. I have been aware of you for a long time. A person who agrees that the USSR (as portrayed by Rezun and Solonin) was a power whose raison d'être was to "... drive the entire population of the planet into concentration camps, barracks and labor armies, as Grandpa Marx taught ... "(Viktor Suvorov," Suicide ", 2006 edition, p. 80) - does not deserve another description. Happy to stay!
              1. Kostya Andreev
                Kostya Andreev 13 December 2016 17: 12
                0
                CORRECTLY SO AND NECESSARY, BURN THE VERB OF THE HEART, CUT THE TRUTH OF THE UTERUS,

                Dear, what kind of historian are you, if your opponent doesn’t want to listen. I provide you with facts, and in return you slip into insults. I did not offer you to twist at the temple, nor insulted you, did not make you a diagnosis.
                But what about the protection of term papers, a diploma, there all the teachers agreed with you right away? You wrote a historian in the questionnaire, for the sake of a red word, that would add authority to your opinion?

                I'd say goodbye. holidays are ahead, so if we have free time, we will again seek the truth. get ready, and I'll go and pray to Rezun, sing for the glory of Corned beef, and I will praise Vlasov.
                You would at least say thanks to me, if you remove my comments, then what you write is not interesting to anyone !!!!!
                I will be back (s).
                1. potanot 253
                  13 December 2016 17: 27
                  0
                  Take a sedative