Shipbuilding Program of the Russian Navy, or a Very Bad Premonition (part of 2)

133

Frigate "Admiral Gorshkov"


What is still wrong with the domestic surface shipbuilding program adopted in the GPV 2011-2020? Immediately, we note that its developers faced a very non-trivial task. The resumption of mass construction of surface ships after a twenty-year hiatus demanded that extremely contradictory requirements be brought together. On the one hand, the newly created ships had to become reliable as a Kalashnikov assault rifle, because in the conditions of a landslide reduction in the ship’s composition, the country simply could not afford to build squadrons to stand at the berths. At fleet and so there were almost no BODs, destroyers, cruisers and TFRs of the 1st and 2nd ranks, and by 2030 - 2035 the vast majority would have to leave the ranks. Therefore, the creation of unreliable ships in the period 2011-2020 will leave the country without a surface fleet.

But how can you ensure the reliability of new projects? Usually, in such cases, the designers try to adhere to the time-tested, well-proven in daily operation solutions. Here are all the time-tested solutions we have twenty years ago and more, so putting them at the forefront means creating deliberately outdated ships. Such a fleet of the Russian Federation is not needed - in the conditions of the numerical superiority of “probable allies” and “sworn friends” our projects should, at a minimum, not give in, but it would be better to surpass similar foreign ones. To do this, new ships should be massively equipped with the latest systems, weapons and equipment, which, due to a pause in construction, are not “run in” by the fleet, but in this case, problems with reliability are almost inevitable.

Add to this the well-known antagonism between shipbuilders and naval sailors - it’s often more convenient and / or more profitable for shipbuilders to build something completely different from what the fleet needs and vice versa - sailors often want to get something that design bureaus and industry are not able to give them.

In order to draw up a competent shipbuilding program, taking into account the above, a systematic approach is needed, the highest competence and professionalism, as well as sufficient authority to coordinate the activities of developers, manufacturers and “end users” seafarers. Probable opponents should be identified, the prospects for the development of their naval forces and the role of their fleets in the war against us should be examined. Assessing the goals and objectives, tactics, composition and quality of the potential adversary's sea forces and determining their own financial and industrial capabilities, set realistic tasks for their fleet, both during war and peace, because the fleet is still the most powerful political tool. And not at the current moment, but at least for a period of 35-40 years, because during this time strengthening of our own fleet and changes in the composition of the Navy of potential opponents, as well as the political situation in the world, can greatly change the tasks facing the Russian Navy.


BOD "Admiral Chabanenko"


And then, using the cost / efficiency scale with might and main, determine by what means we will solve the assigned tasks: to deal with the possible performance characteristics of promising armory (and all other) complexes, to determine the best carriers, to understand the role of submarines, aviation, surface ships, ground and space components of our naval defense (and attack) as part of the “big picture” of the goals and objectives of the Russian Navy. And, having understood, therefore, why we need surface ships in general, to determine their required classes, performance characteristics and quantity. So, for example, a submarine of Project 949A Antei was created - from the task (destruction of the AUG) to the method of solving it (strike of cruise missiles), and through understanding the technical characteristics of a specific missile ("Granite") to the required alongside forces (24 missiles in a salvo) on an operational-tactical mission for a submarine. But the solution methods could be different (coastal naval carrier-based aviation, carrier-based aviation, etc.) - here we need impartial calculations, analysis, professionalism and once again professionalism in order to achieve the maximum result without spending too much.

Was all this done during the formation of the HPV 2011-2020 in terms of the surface fleet? Is this being done today?

Consider the largest surface ships GPV 2011-2020. We are talking about universal landing ships (UDC) Mistral and large landing ships (BDK) Ivan Gren. As you know, the first were planned for construction in the number of 4 units, and the second - 6 units.

UDC "Mistral" in the past few years was perhaps the most talked about in print and the "Internet" ship. He had his supporters and opponents, but, in the opinion of the author of this article, the main reason for such a high interest in the French UDC was due to the fact that neither of them nor the others fully understood why these ships are needed by the domestic fleet.


UDC "Diximyud" type "Mistral"


And really. If we go to the website of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation in the section “Main Command of the Navy” and ask what tasks the fleet should solve in wartime, then we will read:
1. The defeat of enemy ground targets in remote areas;
2. Ensuring the combat stability of strategic missile submarines;
3. Destruction of shock anti-submarine and other enemy groups, as well as coastal facilities;
4. Maintaining a favorable operational regime;
5. Support from the sea for the troops of the front during their defense or offensive in coastal areas;
6. Defense of the sea coast.

As you can see, the only task that the Mistrals somehow suit is the No.5 Support for Troops from the Sea, which can (and should) be understood as landing troops in the interests of the ground forces. At the same time, many Mistral supporters just rested on the fact that this type of ships, capable of disembarking troops from helicopters (and heavy equipment from landing craft), is capable of providing a qualitative leap in our operations of this type. Figures were cited - if tank landing ships of the USSR could have landed on 4-5% of the world coast (simply because far from any place TDK could be brought to shore), for amphibious boats accessibility is much higher (for displacement boats 15-17%, for hovercraft - up to 70%) well, and no coastline is an obstacle for helicopters at all.

Well, perhaps the Navy Main Board really decided to take a step into the future in terms of organizing landing operations? But the question is: if it really turned out that the Soviet ideas about the landing of the Marines and their equipment were outdated and we needed the UDC - why then at the same time with the “Mistrals” were going to build as many as six “Ivanov Grenov”, which are, in essence, the development of the famous BDK "Tapir" project 1171, i.e. the quintessence of the Soviet approach to amphibious ships? After all, these ships are an expression of completely different concepts of landing operations. Why should we follow both at once?

And what did the sailors themselves say about this? Perhaps only the statement of the commander-in-chief of the Navy, VS, is personified. Vysotsky:

The Mistral is designed and built as a ship for power projection and control ... ... it cannot be viewed separately as a helicopter carrier or a landing ship, a command ship or a floating hospital. The presence of an equipped command center on board of this class allows you to control forces of various scales at any distance from the fleet bases in the sea and ocean zones ”


Of course, there is a rational grain in such a statement. “Mistral” is really as comfortable as it is, it has good opportunities for medical care, it allows you to take a lot of supplies and people on board and has a lot of space to stuff it with management equipment. It would be useful, for example, in missions of the Ministry of Emergency Situations. But as a control ship for several frigates trying to destroy the US 6 fleet, it looks somewhat strange. Of course, we are not only the enemy states, for example, the Syrian barmalei. But how would the Mistral help there? The organization of a ground base for aviation of the Russian Aerospace Force of the Russian Federation cannot be managed there in no way (the author does not specifically remember a large aircraft carrier, so as not to provoke an unrelated “holivar” article). And where is the ground base - it is possible to place combat helicopters there, and control can be carried out directly from there, why should a garden be planted with a helicopter carrier?

And what else? Deliver goods to Syria? This is a serious task, but is it a bit expensive? It may still be easier to buy Ukrainian transports on the cheap? If it is a little more serious, then the Russian Navy, unfortunately, not burdened with numerous overseas bases, simply must have a powerful fleet of auxiliary supply ships capable of serving the grouping of ships, where they will be ordered - and in the Mediterranean, for example. And unlike the “Mistral” - this is really one of the most urgent needs. Such ships could be involved in the supply base Chemeim.

What is interesting - let's say we deliberately put everything upside down. Instead of first defining the tasks, and then figuring out the classes and the performance characteristics of the ships to solve them, we take it for granted that we ALWAYS need a helicopter carrier. That is needed, and all. And if necessary, then let's think about how to adapt the helicopter carrier to the tasks of our fleet. So even in this case, the “Mistral” does not look a good option - funny, but the ideal candidate for the position of the helicopter carrier of the Russian Federation would not be the UDC, but the modernized TAVKR of the 1143 project, i.e. a mixture of missile cruisers with an anti-submarine helicopter carrier. Such a ship, being crammed with anti-submarine helicopters, cruise missiles and powerful anti-aircraft weapons, but also having powerful means of communication and control, could well not only ensure the actions of the SSBNs and take part in defeating enemy enemy ship groupings, but also perform many other tasks assigned to according to the website of the Ministry of Defense) to our fleet, including:
1. Search for nuclear missile and multi-purpose submarines of a potential enemy and tracking them on routes and in mission areas in readiness for destruction with the outbreak of hostilities;
2. Observation of aircraft carrier and other naval strike groups of a potential enemy, tracking them in their combat maneuvering areas in readiness to strike at them with the outbreak of hostilities


TAVKR "Baku"


And, of course, to carry out the same control "by forces of various scales at any distance from the bases of the fleet in the sea and oceanic zones," about which Vysotsky spoke. Interestingly, according to some, alas, anonymous sources, some people on the high command of the Navy thought about the same thing:

“We do not need the unarmed DVKDs that the French Navy has. Such “mistrals”, in fact, are giant floating transports with modern combat control, navigation, reconnaissance and communications systems, a kind of defenseless floating command posts that need to be covered both from the sea and from the air by other warships and aircraft, General Staff. - Our Navy DVKD should not only control the actions of various types of forces of naval groups (surface ships, submarines, naval aviation), or even actions of interspecific groups on the maritime and oceanic theaters of war, not only delivering and landing ashore marines on armored vehicles with the help of helicopters and airborne assault vehicles, but they themselves must possess sufficient fire and strike power to be full-fledged self-protected multifunctional warships within these groups. Therefore, the Russian DVKD will be equipped with cruise missiles with an increased range of fire, the latest means of air defense, missile defense and anti-missile defense "


The author of this article would not like the resumption of the “holy war” on whether our fleet needs Mistrals or not. In the personal opinion of the author, which he does not impose on anyone, some work for them in the Russian Navy would probably have been found (especially during non-military times). But the UDC "Mistral" was in no way "a matter of prime necessity", and they were not optimal for carrying out the tasks facing the Navy. This, in turn, suggests sad thoughts: either the fleet’s tasks are set “for show”, or the commander-in-chief of the Navy is not the decisive figure when choosing classes and types of promising ships.

But back to UDC. As another reason for the acquisition in France "Mistral" was the acquisition of modern technologies that are absent in the domestic fleet, and this was understood as a purely shipbuilding technology, and information, such as the French CBS (supposedly the French were going to sell it to us, yeah). Buying technology is definitely a good thing. But in what technologies to the beginning of the GPN 2011-2020, the domestic navy most urgently needed?

During Soviet times, the country had a powerful industry capable of producing the most diverse types of ship power plants. Nuclear, boiler turbines (KTU), gas turbines (GTU), diesel ... well, whatever. But the problem was that not all of them were equally successful. It just so happened that we had excellent gas turbine and nuclear power plants, but somehow we didn’t develop with the boiler-turbine ones - it was KTU that became the Achilles heel of 956 destroyers, and only about the torment with the power plant of our only heavy aircraft carrier cruiser were heard by everyone, who is at least interested in the domestic navy. The same, alas, applies to diesel installations of surface ships - we did not get along with them. And now let's see what power plants the ships of the HPV-2011-2020 program are equipped with.



In other words, someone decided that the Russian navy would henceforth be a diesel one. And this is despite the fact that in Russia the technologies for creating powerful marine diesel engines have not been completely worked out!

In terms of power plants for surface ships, the RF had a choice. We could use gas turbines, but in their pure form they are not ideal. The fact is that, possessing acceptable mass-dimensional characteristics and having a sufficiently low fuel consumption at a power close to the limit, GTU were very “voracious” in the mode of economic progress. But we could use the COGOG scheme adopted on the cruisers of the 1164 Atlant project, where two gas turbines operated for each shaft, one relatively thin for the economic course, the other for the full, though it had a drawback: both turbines could not work on one shaft at a time. We could use the COGAG scheme, which duplicated COGOG in everything, with one exception - in it both gas turbines can work on one shaft at the same time, and from this power plant provides greater speed than COGOG. The EC of such a scheme is more complicated, but we were quite capable of mastering their production - our reliable ones like the TCR of the 1135 project, as well as their descendants of the 11356 project (including those that were supplied to India) are equipped with just such installations.

But instead, for the frigates of the 22350 project, we developed a power plant according to the CODAG scheme - when an economic stroke diesel engine and a gas turbine are working on one shaft, while they can both work on one shaft simultaneously. Such installations are even slightly heavier than COGAG, but it pays off with better fuel efficiency, both economically and at full speed. Of course, you have to pay for everything - of the above, CODAG is the most complex. Well, for the rest of the ships, we decided to use powerful marine diesel engines without GTU.

However, problems could still have been avoided: the fact that the Country of Soviets had good GTUs and it doesn’t matter that diesels are not a sentence at all. And there is no reason for all the millennia remaining in our country to have a long and happy life to use exclusively GTU. If our professional specialists and fathers-commanders, after weighing all the pros and cons, came to the conclusion that the future is in the diesel engine - it means, then so be it. But since we are not strong in this matter, who prevented the acquisition of relevant technologies abroad?

The pre-war USSR soberly assessed its capabilities in terms of creating modern and powerful turbines - there was some experience, but it was clear that independent creation of relatively light, powerful and reliable turbines could take much longer than we had. Therefore, a very successful Italian model was purchased for the Kirov cruiser and Italian help in training the necessary specialists was purchased. As a result, having spent the currency once, we gained many years of Italian experience in turbine and boiler construction, and later, using the knowledge we obtained, we developed improved designs for the 68 and 68-bis cruisers and other ships that were well-known in service.

And since we decided that “diesel engines are our everything”, then we should remember the Stalinist experience - to acquire production lines, diesel projects or help in their development, to buy the necessary technologies ... Yes, it is expensive, but just so we could get reliable the product will continue to design high-quality powerful ship diesel engines independently. And if the navy of the Russian Federation would be diesel, then all these costs would have paid off handsomely, as the purchase of the power plant of the Italian cruiser in the 30 of the last century paid off. Diesels have become for us a key element of the surface shipbuilding of HPV 2011-2020, the success or failure of the program depended on them in the literal sense of the word, because the power plant is the heart of the ship, without which everything else has no special meaning. That's what you had to spend money on the purchase of "Mistral". But it was in this key area that we ignored the foreign experience, which we both needed and decided to put on domestic developments - they say, and it will do.


Corvette "Stereguschy"


The result was not slow to wait. In 2006, the full success of the interdepartmental tests of the units DDA12000, and then a series of publications about the “motor” problems of the 20380 project corvettes on which they were installed. Further, it was decided that the new, improved 20385 series will receive the German diesel engines of the company MTU - it can be seen that the “good” turned out to be passed all the required tests DDA12000. And the proverb that the miser pays twice, was confirmed: without buying “fishing rods” in a timely manner, i.e. projects, technologies and equipment for the production of ship diesel engines, we were forced to spend money on "fish", i.e. diesels themselves. And then the sanctions struck, and we were left without a German product. As a result, as of 2016 g, we have only projects of diesel corvettes, but we do not have reliable diesel engines for them. And how do you order to perform HPN 2011-2020 in its "corvette" part? At the first serial corvette of the 20385 project, they put the same DDA12000 ... and what is our choice?

A similar picture is observed with small ships - if the Buyan ICC allegedly received domestic diesels, then its “elder brother” - the Buyan-M missile - was supposed to go on the diesel circuits of the same German MTU. Of course, the program of import substitution has started, some diesel engines "Buyan-M" will be received, but ... the main thing is that the word "some" should not be the key in this phrase.

We are talking about diesel engines. But after all, it is not only diesel engines that live to our fleet - gas turbines (diesel-gas turbine power plants of Admiral Gorshkov frigates) should also be installed on the latest frigates of the Russian fleet. What is interesting is that by the time HPO 2011-2012 began, we could not do gas turbines for them either. In fact, it was like this: we either bought gas turbines from the Ukrainian company Zorya-Mashproekt, or made them the domestic NPO Saturn, but in the closest cooperation with Zorey, the most complex parts of turbines, their assembly and bench testing in Ukraine. Thus, no matter how terrible it sounds, but we got into a large-scale program of surface shipbuilding, in general, having no gas turbine production for them. We were completely dependent on foreign suppliers!

Could this situation have been remedied? As it turned out - no problem. When economic ties with Ukraine were severed, the same NPO Saturn was able to launch the production of power plants for the 20350 frigates Admiral Gorshkov in Russia. And in fact, which is characteristic, it didn’t require any super efforts - neither the World Cup was canceled, nor the financing of Rosnano was cut. Simply, the leadership of "Saturn" made the next labor feat, that's all. In conditions of high interest rates on loans, the ever-racing dollar, the WTO and the regular global economic crises, daily exploits are, in general, the standard requirement of a job description for the head of any industrial enterprise in the Russian Federation. There is nothing even to talk about.

But only because of the lost time, we obviously break the construction of ships of this type - instead of 8 units to 2020 g, we get 6 units to 2025 g.

To plan the creation of the fleet, without having adequate ship engine building, and almost nothing to do to remedy this situation ... The epithets that come to mind are flowery and juicy, but, alas, are completely irreproducible in print. Then how? The fact that the country needs to get off the oil needle is not even described for 10 years. And what is needed for this? Of course, strengthen non-primary areas of the economy. And so, the Russian Federation is going to build a large surface fleet, whose ships should receive diesel engines and gas turbines. What is the main problem of industrial enterprises in a market economy? Demand instability. Today it is like this, tomorrow it is different, the day after tomorrow a competitor with a new development emerged and the demand for our products fell below the low, tomorrow this competitor went bankrupt and the demand rose again ... But the construction of the fleet provides guaranteed demand for the production of ship engines, their repair and maintenance. Here all the laws of economics just scream: “Urgently build your production!” What diesel engines, gas turbines, it's not just like that, it is a high-tech production, an entire industry, such enterprises around the world, two and two, these are engineering jobs and highly skilled workers, these are taxes to the state treasury, these are possible future deliveries!

Here you can argue, remembering the global division of labor and other things, that almost no state can fully provide themselves with high-tech products alone, that we need to concentrate on what we do well and buy the rest abroad. Something in this approach is correct. But not in key areas on which the state’s defense depends!

Against this background, all sorts of arguments about how useful the Mistral is to us as a storehouse of shipbuilding technologies look, at least ... strange, shall we say.

Frigates and corvettes. Before proceeding to the analysis of the success or failure of the 11356, 20350, 20380 and 20385 projects ships (which is not enough space in this article, so we will do this in the next), we need to answer the following questions: how reasonable was it to assign problem solutions surface forces of the Russian Navy to the ships of the class "frigate" and "corvette"? How did it happen that we abandoned the destroyers we were used to, the large and small anti-submarine ships and other TFRs in favor of frigates and corvettes?

The frigate as a class of warships has undergone an interesting evolution - being a sailing prototype of cruisers, it was transformed into them, and its very name was forgotten for a long time. During the time of the second world frigate returned, but in a completely different rank: now relatively small escort destroyers were called that, intended for the defense of transport convoys, primarily ocean ones. But after the Second World War, he quietly and unnoticed walked the road from a purely auxiliary unit to the main universal rocket and artillery ship of many fleets. Small escort ships at the end of the 20 of the 20th century grew stronger, and ... drove cruisers and destroyers out of the lists of most of the world's Navy.

The USSR also had the idea of ​​creating some kind of foreign frigates capable of solving the same tasks as they are, only better. We collected information on the most advanced ships of this type: Oliver H. Perry, Bremen, Cornwall, Maestrle, Kortenaer, MEKO 200 Yavuz, etc. The German “Bremen” was recognized as the best, and it was decided to surpass it, with which, I must say, Zelenodolsk PKB coped perfectly well, creating an excellent 80 “Hawk” project in the early 11540-s of the last century.


project 11540 "Yaroslav the Wise"


Thus, the path “into the frigates” was trampled back in the USSR. By the way, the 1 institute of the Navy proposed to call the project 11540 a frigate, but Gorshkov did not approve, preferring to call the “Hawk” the patrol ship (TFR). It is no less interesting that the same institute offered to equip the “Hawk” with a diesel-gas turbine installation according to the CODAG scheme (which was later received by the 22350 frigates), but sensibly assessing the capabilities of our industry, they preferred the gas-gas turbine version of COGAG.

Well, then came a period of stagnation and lack of money. The fleet did not want to leave the oceans, but the construction of cruisers and large destroyers was impossible for economic reasons. In many respects because of this, the economical concept of “frigate / corvette” was adopted, in which the frigate was assigned the role of an ocean-based universal rocket-artillery surface ship, while the corvette was to become an equally universal ship of the near-sea zone.

On the one hand, it seemed that such an approach was well founded and had the right to life. First, by doing so, the fleet had to avoid the amazing diversity of ships of various types of the USSR Navy, and unification was far from the last thing, even regardless of the size of the military budget. The benefits from the convenience of basing, supplying and repairing ships of the same type are difficult to overestimate. For the fleet who wants to foam the ocean, such a solution also seemed the most economical, because the frigates were the smallest surface ships of all who could boast of "oceanic" status. The ships of this class are very seaworthy and distinguished by decent autonomy, which to a certain extent was confirmed by the Falkland conflict of 1982, when the British Broadlands and Alakriti operated quite successfully on the other side of the Atlantic. Frigates turned into universal ships, but retained a moderate size and cost. So why shouldn't we “appoint” the frigate as the main rocket-artillery oceanic ship? Moreover, the same TFR of the 11540 project, being twice as small as the BNC of the 1155 project, carried almost the same nomenclature of armaments - already at the stage of its creation some experts noted that their mass construction could make large anti-submarine ships unnecessary, because cheap TFR is quite able to take their place in the ocean.



In general, on the one hand, the frigate seemed like a panacea, but on the other ... You should never get involved in external analogies - they are often false. Yes, foreign frigates, having reached 3,5 - 4 thousand tons of standard displacement, really became generalists able to fight against an air, surface and underwater enemy. Only trouble is that they did it all equally bad. Anti-submarine defense? Some ships of this class were equipped with decent GAS or GAK, but the typical anti-submarine armament of frigates of Western countries with the rarest exception were only 324-mm torpedo tubes. Which neither in range nor in power could not compete with the 533-mm torpedoes of modern submarines. And therefore, when the British ships at the Falklands found the San Luis diesel submarine attacking them, they pursued her ... not approaching her. The task of fire destruction of the enemy was entrusted to the helicopters, and they, despite all the efforts, could not do anything. Whether the British had at least the same ASROC or long-range 533-mm torpedoes, the result could be different, but from the 324-mm torpedo unit the British could only shoot themselves.

Anti-aircraft weapons? Only self-defense complexes like Sea Wolf, RAM or Krotal gave more or less adequate protection, but attempts to put something more serious gave psychological protection more - Sea Sparrow was mainly used, which was very highly estimated in the USSR as an air defense system low (including due to the lack of multi-channel). Only Oliver H. Perry had a truly powerful SAM with Standard missiles, but again - at the cost of completely abandoning missile defense for missile defense, which is why our analysts considered his air defense to be the weakest of all frigates. Impact capabilities? As a rule, 4-8 of small subsonic anti-ship missiles “Harpoon”, “Exoset” or something similar — this should have been enough to destroy a missile boat, or even two, or “disassembling” with a fellow in class, but not to attack serious ship group.

The problem was that, despite its versatility, in the western fleets the frigate was still a secondary ship, called upon to operate in the operational "shadow" of the Big Brothers in the person of the US AUG. Yes, some NATO fleets were built around frigates, but these fleets themselves were initially focused on solving secondary tasks. Still frigates were quite suitable for enlightening any African or Asian natives having the same frigates, only smaller, worse and with less trained crews. And our “Hawk”, surpassing foreign frigates, nevertheless, was not spared from their shortcomings - its URAN anti-ship missiles were designed to combat relatively small (up to 5 thousand tons) targets, the air defense missile system - short-range, here in the anti-submarine parts, of course, he was good: the combination of a decent SAC and rocket-torpedoes was far more dangerous than the capabilities of almost every other 80's frigate. In principle, the 11540 project with certain reservations could indeed replace the BNC 1155, but the problem is that the BODA “Deloi”, acting without the support of ships of other classes, was not able to successfully solve the tasks of fighting the enemy fleet in the ocean.

As a result, as if being in the same class with the western “counterparts”, the Russian frigate had to perform completely different tasks and under completely different conditions. Western frigates are primarily ships of escort and anti-submarine defense, capable of finishing off what, by some miracle, survived after the Nimitsev carrier-based aircraft and Tikonderog cruise missiles. Well, protect yourself from a single plane or anti-ship missiles. No one ever demanded that Western frigates fight a numerically superior enemy in the face of enemy aircraft. But for Russian ships in the ocean, this became almost the only form of combat use.

In view of the foregoing, the Russian Navy does not need frigate-class ships to solve its tasks in the world ocean. They simply do not need him because of the inherent lack of firepower. The domestic fleet needs ships that have the power of a full-fledged destroyer, and as a result ... As a result, the project of the promising domestic frigate 20350 is an attempt to shove the destroyer force into the frigate displacement.

And the same thing we can say about the idea of ​​the Russian corvette. Having set a goal to create a light (standard displacement less than 2 000 t), but at the same time a universal rocket-artillery ship, we tried to shove the power of the frigate into the displacement of the corvette.
But what came out of it was already in the next article.

To be continued!
133 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. -4
    16 August 2016 07: 55
    or Very Bad Foreboding

    so why is the apprehension bad?
    1. +2
      16 August 2016 08: 13
      Quote: alpamys
      or Very Bad Foreboding

      so why is the apprehension bad?

      Starting with the problem with the GEM, Andrei moved on to the problem of unification, the next article will clearly be about "searching" for what we need by building a motley company from which a normal person will definitely have the question "FUCK!"
    2. +24
      16 August 2016 08: 22
      Quote: alpamys
      or Very Bad Foreboding

      so why is the apprehension bad?

      I answer if you do not understand. The fleet is aging, ships of the first rank have ceased to be built, the construction of ships of the second rank is very slow and is associated with many problems. Russian industry is not coping with the tasks set for it to revive the Navy. We are losing personnel and we have no opportunity to make up for them. Quality - the number of naval officers is falling. There is NO clear plan how to get out of this situation !!!
      1. -11
        16 August 2016 09: 18
        Quote: Hunter
        a clear plan how to get out of this situation - NO !!!

        ... and you would certainly like that the "devan esPerdam" - was reported about them first of all? ;))))))))))))))))))))))))))

        Such things, as a rule, are created in closed reports, discussed and opposed in reports on "closed specialized NTS and military industrial complex" and are accepted in the quiet of "high offices" ...
        It happens, of course, that the "offended" - take COIN FROM OBSERVATION. But, it is considered "below the rules" for the initiated ...

        Only the "liberal community" has the habit of getting into things that are not their own business (or maybe on someone's orders) ... trying to determine "according to the rumors of the OBS" what really is ...
        1. +4
          16 August 2016 09: 43
          "Minus throwers" moved - it means that someone behind the scenes got into the eye;))))))))))))))

          I can confirm with the EXAMPLE of the last article on Tu-160 ...
          As you know, the Tu-160 armament complex IS AN OUTSTANDING TYPE.
          Moreover, it is COMPLEX, and not just an element in the form of an airplane. Here EVERYTHING: aircraft, armament, deployment, l / s, industrial production and support ...

          So, since the end of perestroika and the domination of the "young reformers", whole links were knocked out in this chain ...

          I will only touch on the "motor part".
          By 2010, "we will not start" flying. Those. workers' movements - no more ...
          What was available - could perform 1-2 flights. And this is "NZ" ...

          The shoulder blades were the thin link.
          Production is lost, people are gone into another world ...
          If you remember in the media, there was a howl and a hi: they plundered, sawed, not effective shovel production ... etc. etc.
          And it was mainly the "free media" that tried. Although representatives of the "liberal government" and ruined the industry. "Voluntarily or not" - I will not dig ...

          Result nonetheless dust and noise free: Tu-160 are still flying. They even fight in Syria. And then it will fly for decades ...
          And how the Russians got out of the situation - they are still trying to understand "because of a puddle."
          When it seemed to them - "that's it - rusty airplanes"

          It seems to me that this article is with "Navy doctrine" - from the same deck ...
        2. +11
          16 August 2016 09: 54
          Do you really believe in what you write ??? Do you think some kind of "smart guy" will accept a "secret" program tomorrow and we will have new ships, crews, naval bases and new shipyards ??? This is where the magic wand was invented ??? With all due respect, do not comment on what you do not understand !!!
          1. -4
            16 August 2016 10: 05
            Quote: Hunter
            Do you think some kind of "smart guy" tomorrow will accept a "secret" program and we will have new ships, crews, naval bases and new shipyards ??? This is where the magic wand was invented ??? With all due respect, do not comment on what you do not understand !!!

            Mr. is good and probably worthy, but do you yourself understand what you are writing about?

            Do you really think that "some kind of" smart guy "will accept a" secret "program tomorrow - So are State Cases done?
            To understand HOW is done, it is necessary to "boil in this" ...
            And not knowing - do not spread from this and drive foggy reasoning.
            Nl
            1. +18
              16 August 2016 10: 19
              Dear friend, in order to understand what is happening with the fleet, it is enough to live life from a cadet to a certain number of stars on the shoulder straps, to see the life of the fleet from the inside, to drag your family around the base. to see in an instant your whole life when going to sea on an old ship, and then you will understand that building a fleet is not frying pies in the market. This long-term and complex work does not happen overnight, the fleet was practically idle until the 12th year. and to grow up a navigator you need practice and an experienced "vyvaznoy" and with that the problem!
              1. +4
                16 August 2016 10: 52
                Quote: Serg65
                Dear friend, in order to understand what is happening with the fleet, it is enough to live life from a cadet to a certain number of stars on the shoulder straps, to see the life of the fleet from the inside, to drag your family around the base. to see in an instant your whole life when going to sea on an old ship, and then you will understand that building a fleet is not frying pies in the market. This long-term and complex work does not happen overnight, the fleet was practically idle until the 12th year. and to grow up a navigator you need practice and an experienced "vyvaznoy" and with that the problem!

                Hello brother Chernomorets! I enjoyed reading your articles, although I do not quite agree. It is gratifying that even the native Black Sea Fleet and the Caspian Flotilla have the least number of problems in comparison with other fleets! Our unsinkable aircraft carrier Crimea - returned to its native harbor, the Novorossiysk base is under construction, new combat units, slowly, but arrive! And most importantly, the Sevastopol Nakhimov School - prepares Russian sailors! In the Northern Fleet, the situation is worse. Absolutely sad at the Pacific Fleet and the Baltic! God, when it comes to our leadership that the measures taken are not enough, and that without the Strong Fleet there will be no Strong Russia !!!
                1. +2
                  16 August 2016 11: 12
                  Quote: Hunter
                  Hello brother Chernomorets!

                  hi and you with a brush drinks
                  Quote: Hunter
                  Auger, when it comes to our leadership that the measures taken are insufficient, and that without the Strong Fleet there will be no Strong Russia !!!

                  Alexey, as comrade. Confucius "be content with small, big will come to you." I am very glad that at least they remembered about the fleet and at least do something.
                  1. +4
                    16 August 2016 11: 31
                    bully On August 15, the "interesting" exercises of the Caspian Flotilla began, by a strange coincidence in the Mediterranean Sea, a naval strike group of small missile ships Serpukhov and Zeleny Dol, in cooperation with the ships of the permanent task force, was conducting an exercise, and for some reason Tu was parked on Iranian Hamadan -22M3 Yes So, my dear Alexei, as they say in Odessa ... we'll see!
                    1. +1
                      16 August 2016 12: 53
                      I beg your pardon, I will wedge in to what you wrote: the Russian Federation has requested a corridor for calibers from Iran and Iraq. I feel the goals are defined for the "exercises" and they are far from mock-ups!
              2. +1
                17 August 2016 16: 12
                Well, for starters, you need to understand that the USSR could have such ambitions that we could not pull. Build a refuge where the crew of the ship 2000 people one composition is not reasonable. the development of the submarine fleet is a top priority. you won’t get hold of everything. it’s better to bring 2-3 decisions to mind than at the 60 stage you’ll be ready to throw 5-6 products. Which, after grants, will be cut to hell over time. maybe I'm wrong as a couch general. but there is a reasonable grain in my words. what
        3. +12
          16 August 2016 09: 56
          Quote: Rus2012
          and you would certainly like that the "devan esPerdam" - was reported about them first of all?

          My plans are uninteresting; our plans for life are huge. I am interested in facts, but they are, to put it mildly, joyless.
          1. -2
            16 August 2016 10: 11
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            I am interested in facts, but they are, to put it mildly, joyless.

            Respected Andrey from Chelyabinsk (2)Are you sure you know ALL FACTS?
            Their organic relationship with other FACTS and EVENTS, with seemingly completely different SPHERES?
            I would understand and support you if you were with the military-industrial complex or the Navy. But then you wouldn’t write here, is it logical?
            1. +15
              16 August 2016 10: 15
              Quote: Rus2012
              Dear Andrey from Chelyabinsk (2), are you sure you know ALL FACTS?

              I’m sure I don’t know. Then I would have drunk with grief, I guess.
              1. -2
                16 August 2016 10: 32
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                I’m sure I don’t know. Then I would have drunk with grief, I guess.

                ... I think the key here is - surely:)))
                Not everything is so sad! It happened even worse: hungry-cold research institutes, design bureau, factories 15-20 a year ago!

                I have been reading your materials for many years. I like it in places. Partly, no ... Here - very good. much!
                I can agree that with the engines for the fleet - very good luck, but I'm not sure that it will always be so. And now, there are a lot of options for an operational solution: ours from another industry, Chinese, from third countries. It’s not optimal, but the solution ...
                Above I already wrote about the Tu-160.
                So here ... 5-7let, and maybe earlier, this issue will be RESOLVED.
                So in everything else ...
                Programs are accepted - at the very least, but they are being implemented.
              2. The comment was deleted.
              3. +3
                16 August 2016 21: 21
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                I’m sure I don’t know. Then I would have drunk with grief, I guess.

                Andrei, a wonderful article, it’s better than about the harriers, I fully support you, one request, do not touch the alcohol, I want the next part.
      2. +4
        16 August 2016 09: 45
        Quote: Hunter
        Quote: alpamys
        or Very Bad Foreboding

        so why is the apprehension bad?

        I answer if you do not understand. The fleet is aging, ships of the first rank have ceased to be built, the construction of ships of the second rank is very slow and is associated with many problems. Russian industry is not coping with the tasks set for it to revive the Navy. We are losing personnel and we have no opportunity to make up for them. Quality - the number of naval officers is falling. There is NO clear plan how to get out of this situation !!!

        When the country's economy is "ruled" by oligarchs, whose future is long and firmly connected with the West (fortunes, families) through "effective" managers and officials - bribe-takers (corrupt officials), it is difficult to expect them to change their moral priorities from their own welfare to the INTERESTS of Russia and her people.
      3. +6
        16 August 2016 11: 22
        Quote: Hunter
        There is NO clear plan how to get out of this situation !!!

        The main problem of our shipbuilding (and not only) is technological failure. And not only in the field of creating power plants, but also in everything else, from the construction of buildings and ending with microcircuits of control systems. Even if a program for the development of the fleet is determined, money is found, then its creation will certainly rest against the absence of modern technologies. Even projects will have to be developed using outdated technologies. If in the USSR they constantly, with one degree of success, at least somehow tried to eliminate the technological backwardness, then the last quarter of a century was simply "put with the device" on the development of technologies in heavy industry. But technology is the most expensive. And it is impossible to acquire them by buying a finished production, and even more so a finished product. The United States understands this very well, introducing sanctions against the Russian Federation, which primarily block the sale of key technologies to us. And, alas, there is no obvious way out of this situation.
        So here ... 5-7let, and maybe earlier, this issue will be RESOLVED.
        writes Rus2012. Maybe he will tell you how?
        1. +1
          16 August 2016 11: 59
          Quote: Verdun
          writes Rus2012. Maybe he will tell you how?

          In the entire history of the Russian Navy, at least - TWO TIMES rose from the ashes!

          For the first time, after 1917. When it seemed that it would not be able to recover, after the "revolutionary brothers".
          The second time, after the Second World War and the post-war devastation, becoming - oceanic, missile, nuclear ...

          It will rise even now, on the mountain, to the weepers and the all-weepers!
          1. +10
            16 August 2016 12: 22
            Quote: Rus2012
            It will rise even now, on the mountain, to the weepers and the all-weepers!

            Sorry, but you are not at the campaign rally. Thinking about how to fix the situation, looking for the roots of problems to eliminate them, does not mean shouting "everything is lost". For example, I remember quite well how at the end of Leonid Brezhnev's reign they shouted everywhere about how wonderful everything was with us. And how did it end? Objective criticism is a useful thing.
          2. +6
            16 August 2016 12: 23
            Quote: Rus2012
            In the entire history of the Russian Navy, at least - TWO TIMES rose from the ashes!

            I’ll correct you a little, not two but four add the Crimean War and the Russo-Japanese.
            Quote: Rus2012
            It will rise even now, on the mountain, to the weepers and the all-weepers!

            Who exactly is the weeper and the all-creeper? Okhotolyub, Verdun, Andrey from Chelyabinsk and your humble servant without hatred, we soberly evaluate the situation. Although with Verdun’s expression ..
            Quote: Verdun
            And, alas, there is no obvious way out of this situation.

            In principle, I do not agree, there is always a way out .... good or not, but there is.
            1. +1
              16 August 2016 13: 06
              Quote: Serg65
              In principle, I do not agree, there is always a way out .... good or not, but there is

              I wrote about the absence obvious exit. Products created using "bypass" technologies are rarely of high quality. Over the past 20 to 30 years in mechanical engineering, technology has made great strides forward. Their main developers and copyright holders are countries that support sanctions against Russia. They won't sell them to us. To say that we will develop such technologies on our own is rather rash. Ingenious technologists - they are akin to genius scientists. One was able to make a discovery based on the available data, while the other did not. I can give you one example. When the AZLK plant was redirecting the Simka-1310 to create the 2141 model, the repairers faced a problem. The fact is that many body elements of the French car were butt-welded, without "lining". There was no such technology in our country then. But there was a Paton Institute in Ukraine, specializing in welding. There, for clarity, a cut out piece of the body was sent - the central and transverse struts, welded butt, with questions about how this was done. The answer came a few months later. It reported that the institute's specialists did not know how it was done, but they also know how to cook end-to-end, and they sent two pipes welded by friction. smile For obvious reasons, this technology could not be applied to the car and the first bodies were cooked in the old fashion - with a lining, because of which both their weight and manufacturing time increased. Then they spent it all the same and acquired the technology along with the necessary equipment. Then the technology was sold to us. And now?
              1. +2
                16 August 2016 13: 31
                Quote: Verdun
                Then the technology was sold to us. And now?

                And now we have friends, comrades, neighbors, partners under the name of the Chinese, who have already slammed almost all the technologies of the world, and we must turn to them! As an option wink
                1. 0
                  16 August 2016 13: 35
                  Quote: Serg65
                  And now we have friends, comrades, neighbors, partners under the name of the Chinese, who have already slammed almost all the technologies of the world, and we must turn to them! As an option

                  precisely due to the fact that the technological know-how is often simply impossible to "slam", China's lag in some areas of mechanical engineering is associated. Otherwise they would have riveted our Sushki and American Raptors with might and main. A simple example. Everyone knows that in different cars the plastic of the instrument panel has a different texture. For some, it looks noble, almost like skin. Others have cheap and unpresentable bulk. Few of the consumers know that the technology of giving the plastic a certain texture belongs to one company (Swiss, if I am not mistaken) and all manufacturers who want to improve plastic are forced to order equipment from this company.
                  1. +1
                    16 August 2016 13: 44
                    Quote: Verdun
                    technological know-how "slamming" is often simply impossible, due to the lag of China in some areas of mechanical engineering. Otherwise, they would have riveted our Sushki and American Raptors with might and main.

                    laughing And I do not urge to place an order with the Chinese, just ask them to share the "slamzin" and our kulibins will figure out which screw to put in which hole.
                    1. +3
                      16 August 2016 15: 06
                      Quote: Serg65
                      our kulibins themselves will figure out which screw to attach to which hole.

                      Technology is not a combination of cogs and holes, but methods for their manufacture and processing. A simple example from life. In Soviet times, an automatic transmission was developed for LAZ, LiAZ and Ikarus buses together with the Hungarians. The clutch bag for this automatic transmission began its journey as a cast billet weighing more than 16 kg and, after 17 different operations on turning, drilling and milling machines, turned into a final product weighing 3,5 kg. The Germans made a similar part in ZF plants from a metal sheet 3 mm thick with three strokes of a multi-section stamp. She weighed as a result of about one and a half kilograms. I hope the analogy is clear?
                      1. +2
                        17 August 2016 06: 01
                        Quote: Verdun
                        Technology is not a combination of cogs and holes, but methods for their manufacture and processing.

                        smile A simple example from the life of the USSR. All Soviet mainframe platforms existing in the USSR were replaced by a single standard from IBM-360. A similar step was taken with respect to micro-computers. Micro-computers later received the DEC PDP-11 architecture. At the same time, IBM was not looking for cooperation with the USSR and was even against such a partnership. One of the results of the Cold War was a ban on the supply of modern computer technology to the USSR. This also applied to the IBM-360 architecture, which could only be obtained through intermediaries, which meant not only serious difficulties, but also the lack of complete information.
                        The copying industry reached mass scale by the end of the USSR. Technology allowed it. The necessary microcircuits were carefully polished and copied in layers. There is a “tale” about how the designers of the new Soviet calculator could not figure out the purpose of the copied block and simply repeated it in their device. As a result, when one of the powerful Soviet engineering calculators was pressed, it displayed “The company SEIKO thank you for your purchase” (SEIKO thanks you for the purchase). So my friend, not the Chinese are the first in this industry! hi
            2. 0
              16 August 2016 17: 29
              Quote: Serg65
              Without hatred, we soberly assess the situation.


              One modest QUESTION: in which part of the industrial production for the Navy do you work?

              "Soberly assessing" the situation being a fitter-assembler of power plants of even 7th grade, or the head of the final assembly department of floating facilities is one thing. And quite another thing is the operational planner of the shipbuilding association, who is looking for a way out and planning the commissioning schedule in times of pressure. In this case, not at all intending to sleep, hang or shoot.
              The guys work and do not cry.

              Still flying Tu-160 - an example from another sphere ...
          3. +4
            16 August 2016 13: 25
            Here you Rus2012 urge everyone to learn the history of the fleet, but unfortunately you do not know it yourself! This is the first. Secondly, I’m not a cryman and all-crawler, I know the Fleet, it is part of my life, I communicate with naval officers, I understand the difficulties and problems. As I believe, in the Case I criticize the current state of the Fleet, because of my abilities, I try to help cope with them. The fleet is a diamond of our Motherland, and only through the efforts of the country's leadership with our feasible help can this diamond be turned into a real DIAMOND! And one should not even start with the ships, education is the training of officers and shipbuilders, with the preservation of our naval traditions, and the receipt (purchase, even theft) of modern technology!
            1. +5
              16 August 2016 13: 59
              Quote: Hunter
              But one should not even start with ships, education is the training of officers and shipbuilders, with the preservation of our naval traditions

              Take, for example, naval training units. There are not enough fingers on the body to count them. in Sevastopol, the Lazarevskie barracks were all worth it; Kronstadt was a fully training base for the fleet, the Pinsk fleet crew, a training detachment in Mamonovo. about. Russian and even a huge number of others! And now the rookie arrived in the naval clothes and went forward fighter! Does the contractor finish anything?
            2. -4
              16 August 2016 17: 43
              Quote: Hunter
              As I believe, in the Case I criticize the current state of the Fleet, because of my abilities, I try to help cope with them.

              ... this is called rather self-flagellation, or rather, flagellation of those whom you do not know!
              From all your critics, to those who do the work - "neither cold nor hot", and there is nothing to do with what they write here ...

              I repeat, everything is done "in their own circles" - NTS, military-technical cooperation of the military-industrial complex, temporary technical groups of the industry, technical councils of enterprises and so on and so forth! In this case, what comes here is just the whining and crying of "near-naval circles" and the excitement of an unenlightened layman ...

              About -
              Here you Rus2012 urge everyone to learn the history of the fleet

              - where is it calling?

              On the other hand, it would be nice if in educational institutions since school they gave an adequate history of the Fatherland. To know what our descendants had to go through ... and appreciate what is, and fight for the future.
              1. +2
                16 August 2016 18: 14
                Quote: Rus2012
                From all your critics, to those who do the work - "neither cold nor hot", and there is nothing to do with what they write here ...

                That is, there is no need to discuss anything, we shout "Hurray!" and we all go offline together?
                1. 0
                  17 August 2016 09: 23
                  Quote: Verdun
                  That is, there is no need to discuss anything, we shout "Hurray!" and we all go offline together?

                  ... tyuyuyuyu! ;)
                  I wonder how many esPerds of "couch troops", like the BE "guardians of the Fatherland", but in fact - detractors and all-supporters took up arms against different view to the article under discussion?
                  Impatience to other people's opinions, accusations (of ignorance of history ...), attribution of what is not mentioned in my posts ... and it is, and it is ...

                  PS: You can discuss anything, only from this Russia - "zero benefit"!
                  Need to understand - There is sound criticism and reasonable opposition, but there is omnipotence, catch the difference?

                  And there is harm in blasphemy and scourging of all-propagators: ordinary people and people unfamiliar with the subject will continue to carry your speculation -
                  "And like flies here and there rumors go from house to house
                  And toothless old women carry them to the corners "(c) V. Vysotsky

                  As a result, Russia appears in the form of "rusty stagnant ships at sea and flightless planes" ...
                  It becomes clear to rejection that it seems that this is being done by some on purpose ...
                  1. +1
                    17 August 2016 09: 40
                    Quote: Rus2012
                    One modest QUESTION: in which part of the industrial production for the Navy do you work?

                    I do not work in the Navy, I served in the Navy for at least 10 years, but the Navy remained in my soul forever.
                    Quote: Rus2012
                    It is interesting how many esPerds of "couch troops", like BE "guardians of the Fatherland", but in fact - detractors and all-footed people took up arms against a different view of the article under discussion!

                    Do you apologize for what kind of troops are you? What do you know about the fleet besides online articles? What is your other view?
                    Quote: Rus2012
                    : You can discuss anything you like, only from this Russia - "zero benefit"!
                    You need to understand - there is sound criticism and reasonable opposition, but there is omnipotence, do you catch the difference?

                    I understood everything, I caught it! I apologize! And so ... in a short time we will soon have more super ships and we will rip all America to the hell like a hot-water bottle! URAAA!
                    Rus, did I speak correctly? Or maybe add something else about the caliber? Well, a little bit, so that all of the all-awards would shut up!
                    1. 0
                      17 August 2016 13: 21
                      Quote: Serg65
                      Do you apologize for what kind of troops are you? What do you know about the fleet besides online articles? What is your other view?


                      All my adult life I was an employee of the ministerial post office of one of the branches of the "mighty Nine" of the Union, will it suit?

                      The task of the "box" was to provide the "Sky-Earth and Water" SU (power plants) from "zero". I am familiar with the work from the formulation of Tasks for the development of a new product and commissioning and operation ...
                      Will arrange?
                      1. +1
                        18 August 2016 07: 50
                        Quote: Rus2012
                        All my adult life I was an employee of the ministerial post of one of the branches of the "mighty Nine" of the Union,

                        I am very sorry, but in my illiterate head only one analogy comes to mind with the "mighty Nine" -9th department of the KGB of the USSR. Please enlighten if not difficult.
                        Quote: Rus2012

                        The task of the "box" was to provide the "Sky-Earth and Water" SU (power plants) from "zero". I am familiar with the work from the formulation of the task of developing a new product and putting it into series and operation.

                        I respect and am happy for you.
                        Let's go further
                        Quote: Rus2012
                        You can discuss anything, only from this Russia - "zero benefit"!

                        On what basis do you cover your cheers-patriotism with all of Russia?
                        Quote: Rus2012
                        As a result, Russia appears in the form of "rusty stagnant ships at sea and flightless planes" ...
                        It becomes clear to rejection that it seems that this is being done by some on purpose ...

                        Before the Second World War, people like you also shouted "let them just stick around. Yes, we will shower them with hats." What good is it for Russia if everyone puts on rose-colored glasses and revels in the beautiful view? Sometimes it seems to me that you were a party fucker.
                        Quote: Rus2012
                        So here ... 5-7let, and maybe earlier, this issue will be SOLVED

                        I explain on the fingers what a fleet is!
                        Build a warship is only an ode a tenth of the construction of the fleet.
                        , and maybe even less. The fleet is a combat system consisting of subsystems:
                        Shock (actually ships and weapons).
                        Providing (forces and means of combat support of strike forces).
                        Manager (bodies and controls and communications).
                        Serving (bodies and means of technical and logistical support)
                        The construction of such a system requires theoretical justification of the balance of the fleet not only between the types of forces, but also directly between the forces and their infrastructure according to the criterion of “efficiency-cost”! What is happening at the moment? Who is involved in the scientific and technical substantiation of the construction of ships and the balance of the fleet? GDP justifiably wants a strong Navy, the General Staff of the Navy has no idea how to combine desire with reality, the MNC of the Navy is practically destroyed, the quality of training of ordinary personnel tends to zero, the ships are built that can be built by industry, from here and shy from project to project, design bureau and it’s profitable for shipbuilders to receive a state order, and so they begin to propose projects of fantastic destroyers, the basing places are often in a deplorable state, the auxiliary fleet is generally in critical condition, the professionalism of the crew wishes azdo better.
                        At the same time, I do not consider myself to be an all-round fan; I perfectly understand the whole complexity of the situation. And I am glad that the fleet began to revive, even though it slowly began. Ships, what about ships? Sailors have a long tradition of serving on what industry has given, and not on what the fleet needs. hi
                      2. 0
                        18 August 2016 11: 21
                        Quote: Serg65
                        "Mighty Nine" -9th Directorate of the KGB of the USSR.


                        The USSR had a powerful "nine" defense ministries. This scientific and technical complex determined not only the military, but in general the pioneering capabilities of Russia in many branches of knowledge and the economy. Composition "Nines" -
                        nine ministries included in the military-industrial complex of the USSR: IAP, MPI, IEP, Ministry of Environment, IOS, IOM, Tyazhmash, Sudprom, MPSS) ...


                        Quote: Serg65
                        ... like you screaming too


                        Further, I consider leading a discussion with you pointless and not promising ...
                        Nl
                      3. +1
                        18 August 2016 11: 36
                        Quote: Rus2012
                        The USSR had a powerful "nine" defense ministries. This scientific and technical complex determined not only the military, but in general the pioneering capabilities of Russia in many branches of knowledge and the economy. Composition "Nines" -
                        nine ministries included in the military-industrial complex of the USSR: IAP, MPI, IEP, Ministry of Environment, IOS, IOM, Tyazhmash, Sudprom, MPSS) ...

                        laughing but in your own words? Or the knowledge of what they copied does not give the opportunity to protect their lies? My dear friend, I had a chance to talk to the office guys a couple of times, and so, they advised me ... do not be smart, the slightest puncture in your fantasies will betray you with giblets! wink

                        Quote: Rus2012
                        Further, I consider leading a discussion with you pointless and not promising ...

                        Yes, and that’s true, I still did not like slogans and slogans from pioneering years hi
        2. +1
          16 August 2016 13: 01
          Quote: Verdun
          technological failure

          As I understand it, you mean microelectronics and element base.
          We have serious problems with this right now. And once they were leaders in this subject.
          The sad thing is that we have not heard about our "Baikal" CPU. This is of course an outdated technical process based on technologies 10 years ago, but nevertheless it is a base that must and can be developed.
          But as far as I know, they mainly use our circuits in critical nodes such as pr.955.
          1. +1
            16 August 2016 13: 19
            Quote: silver_roman
            And once they were leaders in this subject.

            laughing Once upon a time, we stood at the 12th berth of Sevastopol near the RRC "Slava" and watched the popular at that time series "The meeting place cannot be changed" in the wardroom. During one of the episodes, playful sailors intervened in the conversation between the heroes of the film from "Glory", at first there was a shock, and then pride in our electronics bully
          2. 0
            16 August 2016 13: 27
            Quote: silver_roman

            As I understand it, you mean microelectronics and element base.

            Not only. What do you think, metal processing technology is no longer developing? What no one is developing new plastics? Yes, only in the field of welding recently there have been very significant changes. But welding in shipbuilding is an indispensable thing.
            1. 0
              16 August 2016 13: 40
              Our chemical industry is very competitive if not to say that it is advanced. It seems like the creation of new types of plastic fits here. That and welding seems to be normal, considering. I'm not talking about titanium welding, which is also kind of restored. But the essence is what you mean.
              Nevertheless, in electronics we have a really big backlog.
              1. -1
                16 August 2016 13: 46
                Quote: silver_roman
                It seems like the creation of new types of plastic fits here.

                You can’t even imagine how we fell off in this thread.
      4. 0
        17 August 2016 01: 15
        And who, besides the USA, builds ships of the first rank? It takes about five years to grow your apples! And why do we lose frames, but in my opinion everything is fine with the frames ?! Yes, not as we would like, but it’s not the battleships of the First World War, it’s a complicated technique, and in a country where we have not seen anything new for the previous three decades.
      5. 0
        11 July 2017 17: 52
        "A clear plan ... - NO !!!"? By definition, it cannot be in principle, because what is the plan for that? A plan is an algorithm of actions when implementing an idea (program, project) !? In whose head should this idea be born and mature first? Putin? Medvedev? Queen or Shoigu with Rogozin? Or maybe in the head of Siluanov or Rakhmanov? Or maybe my fellow countryman, Andrei from Chelyabinsk will “give birth” HOW DO I LOOK FOR THE MODERN OCEAN ROCKET - NUCLEAR AND AIRLINE BEARING FLEET OF MODERN RUSSIA !!!?
    3. +4
      16 August 2016 09: 54
      With engines, the ambush is complete. As a result, the timing of commissioning corvettes and frigates goes right, and whether the fleet will receive reliable ships is a big question. Almost motor boats are being driven into Syria here, but there seemed to be no corvettes there.
      I am terribly embarrassed by diesels - they are everywhere, we never learned how to do them.
      1. +1
        16 August 2016 12: 26
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        I am terribly embarrassed by diesels - they are everywhere, we never learned how to do them.

        A curious moment. At one time I had a chance to hold in my hands a report on an industry exhibition held in NAMI in the sixties. And this report contains a large assortment of new automobile engines developed by the Soviet industry. Diesel and gasoline, in-line and boxer ... But, no matter how much I tortured the "senior comrades", I did not get a clear explanation of where it all went.
      2. +1
        16 August 2016 13: 03
        Andrew, hi
        And what should Corvets do in Syria? they are not needed there. Middle-earth is teeming with Turkish diesel submarines and the devil knows what. Corvettes are a coastal zone, you know yourself. That and the Caspian easily work on bearded men.
        UDC is another matter. Gren seems to stall completely. I even heard that they would be laying a new project. I can not vouch for this, but infa slipped somewhere.
        1. +1
          16 August 2016 14: 54
          Do not skid. They laid the second building. But the series is only 2 and limited. Then a new project will go - vague information that UDC.
          1. 0
            16 August 2016 17: 19
            Quote: spravochnik
            Not stalled

            and what else to call it? Dates all conceivable and unthinkable have already been violated and the series has been reduced by 3 times.
            It speaks for itself.
            Now again we will be building 10 years of a new head BDK.
    4. 0
      16 August 2016 17: 22
      I want to advise one rare, truly outstanding and truly fundamental article by retired captain S.V. Topchiev from Sevastopol on the topic of the fleet and much, much wider. And all this with amazing specifics. I didn’t even expect it. The title of the article is very deceptive and didn’t seem to promise anything like that. Highly recommend if anyone has not read: http://flot.com/2016/220920/.
  2. 0
    16 August 2016 08: 12
    Andrey, I have a question, what are the problems on ships with D-49 diesel engines? In principle, they have been worked out on the railway for a very, very long time, for example, 2ТЭ116 diesel locomotives have been produced since the 1971 of the year, TEM7 are also not a new diesel locomotive, both have a D49 type diesel engine. Moreover, now almost all dozens have been upgraded under the D-49. IMHO, with diesels there everything is in order. Maybe something with the transfer? I understand that the requirements for ship and diesel diesels are not exactly the same. But the same type D100 was created on the basis of the ship and nothing, took out almost all the diesel locomotive industry of the USSR. Those. this should not give critical weakness.
    1. +2
      16 August 2016 09: 53
      Quote: alicante11
      I understand that the requirements for ship and diesel diesels are not exactly the same

      A diesel engine does not even have to take off those overloads that a marine diesel engine is experiencing. Imagine the situation ... a storm of 5-6 balls, a screw jumps out of the water for a short time, the diesel engine almost immediately starts to run away, and after seconds the 10 screw crashes into the water at full speed and a crazy load falls on the diesel! Motoresur is rapidly heading towards zero!
      1. 0
        16 August 2016 13: 10
        A diesel engine does not even have to take off those overloads that a marine diesel engine is experiencing.


        Well, what then is the transfer for? For diesel locomotives, a diesel engine is generally not suitable in its pure form. Therefore, power transmission is electric or hydraulic.
    2. +1
      16 August 2016 09: 58
      Quote: alicante11
      Andrei, I have a question, what are the problems on ships with D-49 diesels?

      I speak not my opinion, but the opinion of ship mechanics - in connection with the specifics of the ship service (the same pitching), the fact that the liesel works well on the railway at all and does not guarantee its operation on the ship.
    3. 0
      16 August 2016 12: 01
      Quote: alicante11
      Andrei, I have a question, what are the problems on ships with D-49 diesels? In principle, they have been worked out on the railway for a very, very long time, for example, 2TE116 diesel locomotives have been produced since 1971,

      So the fact of the matter is that these motors were created very long ago. According to modern concepts, they are voracious, have low specific power and are poorly maintainable. In addition, the use of diesel diesel engines on ships is not from a good life. The operating conditions and required specifications are very different.
  3. +5
    16 August 2016 09: 01
    Oh Andrei, Andrei .... touched a living !!!
    Add to this the well-known antagonism between shipbuilders and naval sailors - it’s often more convenient and / or more profitable for shipbuilders to build something completely different from what the fleet needs and vice versa - sailors often want to get something that design bureaus and industry are not able to give them.

    This chronic disease of the Soviet Navy was inherited by the Russian Navy. Sometimes it seemed to me that the shipbuilders built what was beneficial for them, from here and leapfrog from 58 Ave., 61 Ave., 1134 Ave., 1134B Ave. plus to this throwing from side to side with the definition of the main sea threat ... or is it an aircraft carrier, or an SSBN?
    In order to make a competent shipbuilding program, taking into account all the above, a systematic approach, the highest competence and professionalism, as well as sufficient authority to coordinate the activities of developers, manufacturers and "end users" - sailors are needed. It is necessary to identify potential opponents, to study the prospects for the development of their Navy and the role of their fleets in the war against us.

    I will plunge into history again, tk. all the current problems have grown since those times. With the retirement of Admiral Gorshkov, the decline of the USSR surface fleet essentially began. Having replaced Gorshkov, Chernavin was absolutely not interested in the construction of the surface fleet. He was replaced by Gromov, being an excellent commander of the kr. "Admiral Senyavin", Felix Nikolaevich became the evil genius of the Russian fleet. The future president of Vtormetinvest was replaced by intriguer and PR man Kuroyedov. On March 4, 2000, the President approved the "Fundamentals of the Policy of the Russian Federation in the field of naval activities for the period up to 2010". The document outlines as a priority of the state's naval activities: "Maintaining combat readiness and improving naval equipment and weapons, including ... the construction of surface ships, including aircraft carriers with increased combat capabilities." And in August 2003, Admiral Kuroyedov declares ““ For the next 5-7 years, I do not see tasks for aircraft carriers ”!!! Masorin, who replaced Kuroedov in his post, said:“ Our fleet is not built the way Masorin, Ivanov or Sidorov wants ... There are fundamental documents. "But it is this, in principle, correct approach for some reason that is constantly violated. Masorin began to assert that the Russian Navy needs to have up to six nuclear aircraft carriers, the design of which" must begin now. "Since 2007, the Navy has already Commander-in-Chief! In the first part of this article, you complained about the shortage of command personnel, just now this shortage is manifested! Initially it was thought that building a new fleet requires money and this is the main problem, but it turned out that the problem is in the shortage of performers!
    It is necessary to identify potential opponents, to study the prospects for the development of their Navy and the role of their fleets in the war against us. Having assessed the goals and objectives, tactics, composition and quality of the naval forces of the potential enemy and determined their own financial and industrial capabilities, set realistic tasks for their fleet, both during the war and in peace

    So go around as you like with such leapfrog!
    1. +1
      16 August 2016 09: 42
      The pre-war USSR soberly assessed its capabilities in terms of creating modern and powerful turbines

      You are right Andrei, he was in the forefront of turbines in the USSR, but there was parking with diesel engines. On Soviet ships and ships more often diesel engines "Burmeister & Wain", Finnish "Wärtsilä" and much less often diesel "Russian Miracle" from the Leningrad plant "Russian Diesel" were installed.
      To plan the creation of the fleet without adequate ship engine building and to do almost nothing to correct this situation ... The epithets that come to mind are flowery and juicy, but, alas, completely irreproducible in print

      laughing Andrei, you’re a production worker, why such theatrical epithets?
      The fleet already had almost no BOD, destroyers, cruisers, and TFRs of 1 and 2 ranks, and by 2030 - 2035 the vast majority would have to leave the ranks. Therefore, the creation of unreliable ships in the 2011-2020 period will leave the country without a surface fleet.

      Those. do you still understand that the fleet needs ships already yesterday ?! As a leader, you have two options for development:
      1-th Get involved in the organization of a foggy project (with the lack of state property and a planned economy for a given period of time) of the production of diesel engines, turbines and lose precious time.
      2-th Start building ships immediately taking into account
      remembering the world division of labor and the other, that almost no state can fully provide itself with high-tech products alone, that we must concentrate on what we do well and buy the rest abroad.

      It is impossible to separate the political, economic and personnel components in the desire to renew the fleet.
      1. 0
        16 August 2016 10: 02
        Quote: Serg65
        Andrei, you’re a production worker, why such theatrical epithets?

        So we do not swear at them, we talk to them! laughing drinks
        1. +1
          16 August 2016 10: 22
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          So we do not swear at them, we talk to them!

          hi welcome drinks
      2. 0
        16 August 2016 13: 16
        Quote: Serg65
        It is impossible to separate the political, economic and personnel components in the desire to renew the fleet.

        One can only add, namely the quote of the supreme. I do not remember verbatim, but the point is that if the army (not even the fleet, but the entire army) is revived by 2020, then POSSIBLE there will never be such an opportunity.
        When I heard her for the first time, a chill ran through my skin.
  4. +2
    16 August 2016 09: 01
    I liked the article, but is it really so bad? He is drawn to order, but all the more interesting to read the sequel - to find out, so to speak, the main idea.
    1. 0
      16 August 2016 10: 17
      Quote: surozh
      I liked the article, but is it really so bad?

      Well, generally speaking, nothing of what is written in it is a military secret and has been repeatedly discussed - including in
      Quote: surozh
      Drawn to order

      :))) You look at my publications - I look like a custom, or not :)))
  5. 0
    16 August 2016 09: 38
    Hello Andrey! I will honestly write - I was waiting for your article and looked forward to a lot, believing that as usual you are doing very GOOD or even EXCELLENT! But ... disappointed? No, there are no evaluations or "objective" criticism, and with the stylistics of presentation and facts with arguments, everything is logical and normal, but ... the "testicle for Christ's Day" did not work? Some kind of "peppercorn" is not present, here is the essence and "off the hook"? Perhaps in the "continuation should" you take this criticism into account? Thank you in advance, your fellow countryman and admirer of your talent Konstantin K.
    1. +4
      16 August 2016 10: 08
      Quote: KudrevKN
      Some kind of "peppercorn" is not present, here is the essence and "off the hook"?

      Good day! Well, I regret that I didn’t get hooked, alas, it doesn’t always work out.
      Just some super discoveries in this area probably will not happen in the next (last) article. All the problems of the domestic surface fleet repeatedly surfaced in discussions, only somehow separately, or something, and I'm trying to bring everything together. And ... you see, engines, this is certainly not as interesting as the performance characteristics of weapons, but if the ship has an unreliable engine, the ship is crippled.
      hi
  6. +1
    16 August 2016 09: 53
    The author of this article would not want a renewal of the “holy war” on the topic of whether the Mistrals are needed by our fleet or not.
    Why start a war? It is clear to everyone who and for what started a scam with the purchase of this trough.
    Here to put the swindler and others like him did not work. For a bag of potatoes would be planted. And then you’ll think about the issue of national security.
    1. +1
      16 August 2016 14: 01
      Quote: Prince of Pensions
      Why start a war? It is clear to everyone who and for what started a scam with the purchase of this trough.
      Here to put the swindler and others like him did not work.

      Do you propose to plant a guarantor? Strong... smile

      The order for the Mistrals was initially political and it was far from a furniture maker who steered it: it is difficult to imagine the Minister of Defense ordering 2 UDCs in one person for the fleet in a NATO member country. The most likely reason for this order is the payment of France's favorable actions for the Russian Federation in the "war of three eights".
  7. 0
    16 August 2016 10: 07
    The author has come off reality. Absolutely.
    It was not in vain that the people said "soon the fairy tale will tell itself, it will not be done soon." The country has just begun to rise, and he already has a fleet on a silver platter.
    Patience, my friend, have patience.
    1. +3
      16 August 2016 10: 14
      Quote: nesvobodnye
      It was not in vain that the people said "soon the fairy tale will tell itself, it will not happen soon.

      The deed will be "done" only when the hands are applied to this deed. And from the very beginning, when building the fleet, there were a lot of mistakes. As a result - not only a complete disruption of the GPV for the construction of surface ships, but also a deadlock in the development of military shipbuilding. Which, by the way, could have been avoided by planning your actions ahead of time and correlating the desired with the possible.
      Quote: nesvobodnye
      The country has just begun to rise

      At the moment, the country is not going up anywhere, but falling (see official statistics of GDP), however, it has nothing to do with the matter - the question is not that more money is urgently needed, but the question is that we do not manage those that are in the best way
      1. -1
        16 August 2016 12: 58
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The deed will be "done" only when the hands are applied to this deed. And from the very beginning, when building the fleet, there were a lot of mistakes. As a result - not only a complete disruption of the GPV for the construction of surface ships, but also a deadlock in the development of military shipbuilding. Which, by the way, could have been avoided by planning your actions ahead of time and correlating the desired with the possible.


        A lot of mistakes - yes, as in any other big business, but forgive me, the fact that the failure of the GPV is the result of mistakes "initially" made when planning the construction of the fleet, this is a very controversial thesis. Yes, the breakdown occurred mainly due to the unavailability of the industry to adequately fulfill the program for the construction of surface ships (and most of the unavailability of not shipbuilders, but of subcontractors supplying systems and weapons of ships), as well as due to the well-known events in / in Ukraine, which entailed for itself the non-delivery of GTU for our frigates, but forgive me, how could you avoid these problems? Fully place the production of all the necessary components (including the gas turbine engine) on your territory, and only then start building ships for the Navy, so you yourself write that the situation with the fleet's combat strength is critical and that the ships are needed yesterday. If this were the approach, nothing would be built at the moment. Moreover, what is the impasse in military shipbuilding you say there are huge problems, but what is the impasse?
        1. +2
          16 August 2016 14: 50
          Quote: slm976
          but excuse me, how could you avoid these problems? Fully locate the production of all the necessary components (including gas turbine engines) on its territory, and only then begin building ships for the Navy, so you yourself write that the situation with the combat personnel of the fleet is critical and that the ships are needed yesterday.

          The propulsion problem had to be dealt with as soon as they decided to build a fleet. If - diesels - to acquire production from the Finns or Germans there. If - GTU - build everything you need on the basis of the same Saturn. Then today we would have a good chance of normalizing the situation. Well, you yourself calculate what would happen if the same Saturn would have worked to create its own turbine engineering of a full cycle of the year since 2011? Now it would be enough for "pot" turbines, even though they would not stall.
          Quote: slm976
          Moreover, what kind of deadlock in military shipbuilding do you say there are huge problems, but what is the dead end?

          The impasse lies in the fact that we managed to put all the promising ships on diesel engines, without having a reliable diesel engine. And now we have no projects for non-weekly ships, and no diesel engines for existing projects. Funds invested in the 20380, 20385 and 22350 series may be thrown into the wind due to the unreliability of their power plants. And by 2030 we will be left without ships of the USSR.
          If this is not a dead end, well, then I don’t know what a dead end is.
          1. +2
            16 August 2016 16: 04
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            The propulsion problem had to be dealt with as soon as they decided to build a fleet. If - diesels - to acquire production from the Finns or Germans there. If - GTU - build everything you need on the basis of the same Saturn. Then today we would have a good chance of normalizing the situation. Well, you yourself calculate what would happen if the same Saturn would have worked to create its own turbine engineering of a full cycle of the year since 2011? Now it would be enough for "pot" turbines, even though they would not stall.


            So at the start of the program, there were diesels (Kolomna) and gas turbines (half Ukrainian, half Saturn) in the production process of Project 20380, it turned out that the Kolomna diesel engine on Project 20380 raises some questions, so in Project 20385 they decided to use MTU .. According to Project 22350 , as far as I remember, there are no problems with the sustainer diesel engine, there was a problem with the Ukrainian afterburner ... After the events in Ukraine, they lost access to both the MTU and the Zori turbines, so they returned to the Kolomna Ave. 20385 and the turbine under Project 22350 saws off Saturn. But agree to foresee all these problems at the beginning of the construction of the fleet was hardly possible. And just buying and import substituting all strategic production at once - sorry, the navel will untie. We are considering a narrow piece - ship engine building, but at the same time there was a substitution in rocket engineering, aviation and helicopter engine building, where the situation is better somewhere worse ... but it is not possible to replace everything at once. There is a good proverb - "If I knew where to fall, I would spread the straws."

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            The impasse lies in the fact that we managed to put all the promising ships on diesel engines, without having a reliable diesel engine. And now we have no projects for non-weekly ships, and no diesel engines for existing projects. Funds invested in the 20380, 20385 and 22350 series may be thrown into the wind due to the unreliability of their power plants. And by 2030 we will be left without ships of the USSR.
            If this is not a dead end, well, then I don’t know what a dead end is.


            There are diesel engines, Kolomenskie ones, sailors have questions about them (according to project 20380), but I think these problems will be solved (in my opinion, bringing an existing engine to mind is at least easier than buying and deploying Finnish or German production). What will be a thankless task to make up by 2030, let's see for a start what will happen to a promising destroyer, but for now it is necessary to complete what is planned, restore and modernize what is possible from the legacy of the USSR Navy, in general, solve current problems, otherwise think about what will happen in 2030 will not be for anything.
            1. 0
              19 August 2016 08: 14
              Honestly, I really didn’t understand how the author missed such facts as the developed production of ship diesel engines and political problems with the only producer of gas turbines in the Union
        2. The comment was deleted.
  8. 0
    16 August 2016 10: 28
    The USSR also had the idea of ​​creating some kind of foreign frigates capable of solving the same tasks as they are, only better. We collected information on the most advanced ships of this type: Oliver H. Perry, Bremen, Cornwall, Maestrle, Kortenaer, MEKO 200 Yavuz, etc. The German “Bremen” was recognized as the best, and it was decided to surpass it, with which, I must say, Zelenodolsk PKB coped perfectly well, creating an excellent 80 “Hawk” project in the early 11540-s of the last century.

    And here the author is not quite right, but in the sense - "excellent project". Zelenodolsk PKB at that time had no experience in creating large warships (the prerogative of the Northern PKB), and this gave rise to many problems. There were problems with the strength characteristics of the hull - it began to crack on the slipway, the pillers bent. I had to finish the project endlessly during the construction process. Problems also emerged in seaworthiness.
  9. +2
    16 August 2016 10: 42
    In principle, project 11540, with certain reservations, could indeed replace the BOD 1155, but the problem is that the Udaloy BOD, acting without the support of ships of other classes, was not able to successfully solve the problems of fighting the enemy fleet in the ocean.

    Yes, he could not replace. Even then, in the 80s, it was concluded that it was not profitable to build TFR for ocean fleets, but destroyers were needed.
    By the way, it was the aforementioned pr. 1155 in its last incarnation (pr. 11551 "Admiral Chabanenko", see photo) and could become such an EM. In this version, the armament became more powerful and versatile: 2 AK-100s were replaced by 1x2 AK-130s; PU "Trumpet" on PU anti-ship missiles "Moskit"; TA was replaced by the "Waterfall" complex; AK-630 for 2 "Daggers". Air defense remained a weak point, but over time it could be strengthened. It is a pity, only one ship was built (one was dismantled on the slipway).
    1. +2
      16 August 2016 11: 21
      Quote: spravochnik
      By the way, it was the aforementioned pr. 1155 in its last incarnation (pr. 11551 "Admiral Chabanenko", see photo) and could become such an EM. In this version, the armament became more powerful and versatile: 2 AK-100s were replaced by 1x2 AK-130s; PU "Trumpet" on PU anti-ship missiles "Moskit"; TA was replaced by the "Waterfall" complex; AK-630 for 2 "Daggers". Air defense remained a weak point, but over time it could be strengthened. It is a pity, only one ship was built (one was dismantled on the slipway).

      Here I completely agree with you !!! The project has been tested, "Chabanenko" is essentially a universal destroyer and, before the laying of new destroyer projects, would have adequately covered the Motherland with its chest.
      1. +3
        16 August 2016 12: 25
        The most interesting thing is that the promising EM pr.21956 is the development of the same pr.11551.
  10. 0
    16 August 2016 10: 52
    The idea of ​​a simple fleet workhorse, built on proven technology that uses already developed weapons systems, has long been ripening.
    So the idea of ​​building a warship of about 5000 tons, diesel engine from diesel locomotives, i.e. 6 diesel generators, battery pack, el. The engine from the icebreakers, lying to them, the speed of about 30 knots will be, in terms of armament 2 r. A tornado in the bow and stern with impressive ammunition (200 shots per pound, possibly more, we get a firing range of about 60 km is enough), air defense similarly to Grigorovich, despite the fact that the systems have already been worked out and have touched 3 ships, and the package is not towed by us, maybe a liner, and a couple of dozens of unmanned aerial vehicles, maybe one USC and that’s all, just that it’s already worked out any complexity in the systems and You can build masses of the same Kerch. And then let him continue torturing Gorshkov.
  11. +4
    16 August 2016 11: 36
    Good afternoon, article plus, although in my opinion the author is trying to reveal a very broad topic right away, as a result he moves from one to another, not completely revealing the topic, which leads to some superficiality and confusion)), I am not trying to belittle the author's work (I already I wrote that criticizing is very simple, try to write something yourself), it just seems to me that if he had expanded the NK subject by class of ships in series, it would have turned out in more detail and logically. Some theses seemed dubious to me, such as:

    According to GEM, the author’s conclusions about the transition in the Russian shipbuilding to diesel engines, to the detriment of other types of power plants, are controversial. The author’s table shows some projects of the ships, on the basis of which he made such a conclusion, including the IAC and RTOs, which is understandable, since at the moment this class of ships, the most numerous in construction, these ships are just what we can build without problems but this class of ships, IMHO, traditionally in the USSR also had diesel power plants, look at the IPC pr. 1124 and MRK pr. 1234 ...
    The main line shown in the same table has nothing to do with domestic shipbuilding, although the diesel power plant for this class of ships looks quite logical, given that this ship is ..
    On pr.22350 there is a combination of a marching diesel + afterburner turbine, and the author subsequently himself justifies the choice of such a power plant with greater efficiency, which is correct from my point of view.
    The only places where, from my point of view, they could really put gas turbines instead of a diesel engine or in addition to a diesel engine, these are on corvettes, pr. mainly diesel power plants, less often diesel + turbine ..
    From my point of view, the use of gas turbine engines makes sense on warships, starting with the frigate class, and since we actually only began to build frigates (before that we built smaller ships), the bias towards diesel power plants is justified.
    Further, I completely agree with the author that it is fundamentally wrong to depend on the supply of power plants by a foreign manufacturer for the production of military ships, but according to the cargo customs declaration we became a hostage to the situation that developed after the collapse of the USSR, when a number of strategic industries appeared abroad, and that’s the production of gas turbine engines remained in / in Ukraine, that is, our domestic production (only 1 out of 3 in the world of such industries) went abroad, and here, in my opinion, the continuation of cooperation with Zarya, with a promising, gradual replacement of the production of necessary gas turbines in its territory, It was non-alternative, another thing is what happened as it turned out, and I had to urgently deal with this replacement ...

    In general, the article is read in general, it is interesting, I look forward to an article about corvettes pr. 20380 and frigates pr. 22350, the author’s point of view is interesting, although I already see from this article that it does not coincide with mine, but this does not make it any less interesting. With respect to the work of the author.
    1. +2
      16 August 2016 12: 19
      the most numerous in construction, these ships are just what we can build without problems, but this class of ships, IMHO, traditionally and in the USSR also had diesel power plants, look at the MPK pr. 1124 and MRK pr. 1234 ...

      Project 1234 really had a diesel power plant, while Project 1124 had a combined diesel-gas turbine.
      1. 0
        16 August 2016 12: 22
        Quote: spravochnik
        Project 1234 really had a diesel fuel injection system, while Project 1124 had a combined diesel-gas turbine.


        I admit my mistake. Indeed, you are right in pr. 1124 combined power plant.
    2. +1
      16 August 2016 14: 36
      Quote: slm976
      Good afternoon, article plus, although in my opinion the author is trying to reveal a very broad topic right away, as a result he moves from one to another, not fully revealing the topic, which leads to some superficiality and confusion

      Yes, how to say? The article was originally intended as a review article, in these materials I was not going to dig every rivet :) Accordingly, of course it is superficial, and if it is also messy - well, you, as a reader, obviously know better, my eye gets blurry :)
      Quote: slm976
      The author’s table shows some ship designs

      The fact of the matter is that not some but almost all, except 11356
      hi
      1. +1
        16 August 2016 15: 10
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Yes, how to say? The article was originally intended as a review article, in these materials I was not going to dig every rivet :) Accordingly, of course it is superficial, and if it is also messy - well, you, as a reader, obviously know better, my eye gets blurry :)


        Andrey, write more! I think that the "confusion" about which I wrote is associated with some emotional component, you pass the topic through yourself, write about what worries you! I already wrote, after the first part, the main thing is that the article makes you think and causes a lively discussion, which means that, from my point of view, it fulfills its main task.

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The fact of the matter is that not some but almost all, except 11356

        In my humble opinion, this is due to the specifics of what we were building, these are mainly MRCs and Corvettes, that is, small ships of the fleet of the near sea zone, diesel engines on them is a logical decision. According to the BDK, we have all types of the BDK except the Rhinos (which had the GTE), also came with diesels, if I'm wrong, I hope spravochnik will correct me ...)) So in my opinion there is no tendency to switch to diesel, we will build big ships - there will be other types of power plants, not the fact that a gas turbine engine, because in the near future we will hardly launch anything other than the afterburner turbine to Project 22350, promising destroyers, as promised, will have nuclear power plants ... we'll see. The main thing is that the fleet be built.
  12. exo
    +1
    16 August 2016 11: 41
    Most likely, a conflict, of low or medium intensity, will put everything in its place. It will show what is generally known: ships of small displacement can not replace larger brethren.
  13. 0
    16 August 2016 12: 18
    A little about Mistral. It is such a ship that should cover the Grenov landing and landing operation with its helicopters and other forces deployed on landing boats. And these boats can accommodate Iskander, and Tornado, and Buki, and the Coalition ... And they do not even need to approach the coast at a short distance: you can fire directly from the side, which can be distributed along the coastline.
    1. 0
      16 August 2016 12: 29
      Quote: Tektor
      A little about Mistral. It is such a ship that should cover the Grenov landing and landing operation with its helicopters and other forces deployed on landing boats. And these boats can accommodate Iskander, and Tornado, and Buki, and the Coalition ... And they do not even need to approach the coast at a short distance: you can fire directly from the side, which can be distributed along the coastline.



      You will forgive me, IMHO this task is much easier if the landing is covered by a universal ship of the frigate / destroyer type, which has missile weapons, air defense and an artillery installation .. and let the BBM landings (tanks, infantry fighting vehicles) land on boats.
      1. +1
        16 August 2016 12: 42
        I don’t quite understand: the frigate / destroyer also has a dozen attack helicopters with diverse, including - guided missile weapons?
        The headquarters and the commander of the operation should be on the ship with a rank not lower than the cruiser, where you can place the necessary equipment and infrastructure.
        1. 0
          16 August 2016 13: 24
          Let me explain, my remark concerned this phrase of yours:

          Quote: Tektor
          And these boats can accommodate Iskander, and Tornado, and Buki, and the Coalition ... And they do not even need to approach the coast at a short distance: you can fire directly from the side, which can be distributed along the coastline.


          I was very interested in the composition of the combat vehicles that you decided to transport on landing boats ... Iskander, Buki, Coalition ... everything shoots on the go .. I’m wondering, but Iskander will fit in a landing boat?)))

          The fact that the ship is a helicopter carrier, should cover the landing operation with attack helicopters, is clear to the hedgehog, and it made no sense to write about obvious things ...

          Quote: Tektor
          I do not quite understand: the frigate / destroyer also has a dozen attack helicopters with a variety of, including - guided missile weapons?

          No, the frigate / destroyer has its own missile and artillery armament, which can replace a dozen attack helicopters "with various, including guided, missile weapons"

          Quote: Tektor
          The headquarters and the commander of the operation should be on the ship with a rank not lower than the cruiser, where you can place the necessary equipment and infrastructure.


          And again, the obvious thing, but Mistral was also considered as a control ship, no one objects to this ... but in the message that I commented, you did not write a word about it ...

          In general, the Mistral is a cross between a barge with a cruise ship carrying a helicopter deck and a dock for landing boats ... when discussing it, so many copies are already broken that it makes no sense to start all over again ...
          1. +1
            16 August 2016 16: 39
            Iskander, Buki, Coalition ... everything shoots on the go .. I’m wondering, but Iskander will fit in a landing boat?)))
            Perhaps it will fit on Dugong and Yars’s mobile ... True, he won’t be able to sustain Yars’s start, but the shot by the Malka’s sapling is enough.
            1. +1
              16 August 2016 20: 37
              Yes, you are right in size and weight to fit, if someone else but you thinks to drive him there.))
    2. 0
      16 August 2016 13: 10
      Not only would I not put the Mistral on, but I would not even accept it into the Navy. The ship is built to civil shipbuilding standards and is intended only for colonial operations.
      This, I'm sorry. from which boats you are going to bullet the above. Just like the Chinese - they, too, self-propelled guns from ships shot along the shore. So from the ships, to the boats, even they did not think of it.
    3. +2
      16 August 2016 16: 20
      Quote: Tektor
      A little about Mistral. It is such a ship that should cover the Grenov landing and landing operation with its helicopters and other forces deployed on landing boats. And these boats can accommodate Iskander, and Tornado, and Buki, and the Coalition ... And they do not even need to approach the coast at a short distance: you can fire directly from the side, which can be distributed along the coastline.


      I’m afraid that after such an application, the majority of ACA ACs will be lifted from the bottom, and not because of the enemy’s influence.
  14. +1
    16 August 2016 12: 28
    My opinion is that under Mr. "Stouretkin", many of the ideas that were adopted in the construction of the Navy, came purely from political and even fashion trends. As we all have, but we do not. And to France, once again, it is not a sin to ride with Mrs. Vasilyeva. So, Glory to the Almighty, that Egypt got the Mistrals.
    As for the design bureau, this is not so simple. I’ll say, like Piterets, in our design bureau they will be able to design at least any ship or vessel. The question is different - there is no order for this.
    Well, the industry adds its own points. "Polyment-redoubt" is still not ready and it is not known when it will be finished.
    Photo of a huge diesel engine is not correct. Marine diesel engines are created only from one of the most important goals - profitability. The middle course and quietly weap from port to port. At one speed and one route. It is generally desirable on fuel oil. The larger the engine, the greater the resource and overhaul interval. Less downtime - more money. Ship engines - designed for ruthless maneuvering and fuel consumption is not an end in itself in this case. Well, it’s the same as comparing the engines of a fighter and a passenger plane. hi
  15. +4
    16 August 2016 12: 29
    Well, at least someone began to write not another cheers-patriotic campaign, but trying to properly understand the situation.
    I'll bring in "five cents":
    ... in which the frigate was assigned the role of an ocean-going universal rocket-artillery surface ship
    Project 11356, Project 22350 are not ships of the ocean-going fleet. They initially belong to the ships of the "far sea zone", no one hides this and writes everywhere. The area of ​​operation of ships is not determined by their weapons. but exclusively seaworthiness, habitability and weather restrictions on the use of weapons. Therefore, ships with a displacement of about 6000 tons are now considered truly oceanic. 2000-4000 tons are class 2 frigates, not suitable for combat operations in the ocean, i.e. Of course, they will swim across the ocean (they also cross 8-meter yachts), but most of the time they simply cannot fight because of the bad weather for them.
    Well, what about the long-suffering Mistrals.
    First, it was a purely political move, gratitude to the "partners" for Georgia, everything is clear here for a long time.
    Second - In our headquarters not only fools are sitting, there are also smart people, so basing the Mistrals on the Far East is a really smart move. It is there that we have remote rocky islands, which, in case of need, would be most conveniently prepared for defense and supplied with the Mistrals. In fact, the two ships could technically support the defense of the remote and important DB theater. Now, in their absence, it is necessary to deploy ground bases, how and what they will be supplied with is not yet clear. It is no coincidence that 2 of the 3 BDK pr.1174 are located in the Far East and, unlike the Mitrofan Moskalenko from the Northern Fleet, they have not yet been put on pins and needles.
    1. +2
      16 August 2016 13: 33
      Frigates of the 2nd class? Maybe they wanted to write-2 rank?
      Andrew correctly painted the role of modern frigates -
      Yes, foreign frigates, having reached 3,5 - 4 thousand tons of standard displacement, really became universal, capable of fighting against an air, surface and underwater enemy. Only trouble - they did all this equally badly.
      And it’s not even the weather — it doesn’t always interfere with the use of weapons, but the fact that such ships at the moment cannot create any serious PLO and air defense zones, and when they collide with AUGs, they become just a useless pile of scrap metal.
      1. 0
        16 August 2016 14: 18
        Yes, you are right about the rank. I did not touch on the quality and characteristics of the weapon, this is another story. I am simply against the unreasonable reckoning of modern frigates as ships of the ocean fleet, this is self-deception.
    2. 0
      16 August 2016 15: 13
      Second - In our headquarters not only fools are sitting, there are also smart people, so basing Mistrals on the Far East is a really smart move. It is there that we have remote rocky islands, which, in case of need, would be most conveniently prepared for defense and supplied with the Mistrals.

      It is too expensive to supply the islands with the Mistrals. There are military transports for this. And civilian vessels such as ro-ro and lighter carriers are fine.
  16. +1
    16 August 2016 13: 44
    Quote: chunga-changa
    It is no coincidence that 2 out of 3 BDK pr.1174 are located in the Far East and, unlike the Mitrofan Moskalenko from the Northern Fleet, they haven’t been put on pins and needles.

    You revived "Ivan Rogov" for an hour)))
    Of the whole trinity, Moskalenko is perhaps closest to life. But, unfortunately, no rather than yes.
    1. 0
      16 August 2016 15: 16
      By the way, information was slipping about the possibility of their recovery, but it seems that they also abandoned it. Sorry.
  17. 2c1
    +2
    16 August 2016 17: 59
    I had a "very bad feeling" when the submarine was welded to the piers with rails and surface ships were cut with needles. But now it seems nothing like that, quite a normal process, not without mistakes, but on the whole progressive, God forbid that everything works out as it should, I keep my fists for the Navy!
  18. +4
    16 August 2016 18: 52
    Normal article good
    A person in his series of articles considers the problem from different angles, trying to be objective in his judgments as much as possible. Let the topics be raised "uninteresting" for some readers, but still. All the more this is the author's personal opinion.
    My personal opinion is that you need to maximize the creation of ships entirely from domestic materials and stuff them with domestic equipment. Otherwise, we will continue to rely on our neighbor. Well, another neighbor will be normal and adequate, reliable. And if so, what is today's Ukraine? What to wipe away tears and let the ships under the knife or resell ?? We don’t know how to make reliable ES of ships - this is how we need to learn. Then the ships will surrender on time and without damage break through the Akiyan seas ... soldier
    Plus hi
  19. +5
    16 August 2016 18: 57
    The author is right. For Russia, even frigates of project 22350 are half measures. The surface ships of the Russian fleet are full-fledged destroyers. Andrew is convincing. The article is an absolute plus.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. +2
        16 August 2016 20: 44
        Quote from rudolf
        What does it mean: frigate, is it half measure?

        This means that read the article, and then wave the slobbery broom.
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. +3
            18 August 2016 19: 38
            Quote from rudolf
            If I start "waving a slobbering broom", I will become like you, Panikovsky, and I would not want that. And I liked the article. Although I do not agree with everything. Andrey is great.

            rudolff, sorry for being rude, you're right, believe me, I'm not a boor.
            1. The comment was deleted.
      2. +2
        17 August 2016 06: 29
        Quote from rudolf
        Resting your forehead on the construction of destroyers, while saving on the ships of the near and far sea zones, is equivalent to putting on a tailcoat and covering the bare ass with the forks. The fleet should certainly be balanced, but it starts from the coast, and not from ocean dreamers.

        The dream of the ocean fleet in Russia was present since Peter 1, and sometimes we managed to put it into practice. And you are absolutely right, the ocean fleet begins with boats, corvettes and frigates. The USSR had a powerful ocean fleet, but the number of missiles, interregional missiles, missile defense systems, military vehicles, and missile defense systems far exceeded the number of missile defense, electromagnetic, missile defense, missile systems, and missile defense systems!
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. +2
            17 August 2016 09: 16
            Quote from rudolf
            I graduated from the third navigational faculty of Lenkom and further service in the 24th "animal" DPL KSF

            Was the current Commander-in-Chief with you a deputy or was he already a division commander? And I served in the 30th "wild" division laughing

            Quote from rudolf
            The smallest combat unit, balanced according to the nomenclature of weapons, seaworthiness, autonomy, TTX - corvette.

            Quite right, the next in this line is a frigate (TFR), and there is also an oceanic zone in the form of an EM (but not of the "Leader" type). hi
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. +1
                  17 August 2016 13: 14
                  Quote from rudolf
                  By the way, why "wild"?

                  smile answer
                  Quote from rudolf
                  The 30 I was once the backbone of the 5 operational squadron.

                  In the 70s and 80s, Mediterranean life was very eventful, then the war between the chosen ones and the ancestors of the Ishilvites, then the Americans decided to play pranks, they almost did not stand at the wall, they rested only in repair, from here and "wild". rushed about the seas like crazy. Sometimes the messenger will come running while you are getting ready, until you arrive at Grafskaya, and the ship is already passing the booms. Fortunately, the commander will give the longboat in advance and get the go-ahead for him for prowling around the raid laughing .
                  Quote from rudolf
                  Went to the Mediterranean?

                  3 BS and once around Europe from Liepaja. Oh, what youth was like !!! crying
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                    1. +2
                      18 August 2016 08: 05
                      smile At the KChF, in addition to the "wild" division, there was also a "wild" division - the 181st division of the PLC. It got its informal name similar to your 24 DPL. It included the TFR pr. 50 "Wolf", "Lynx", "Panther", "Marten", etc., based on the unforgettable experience of the naval base Poti.
                      1. The comment was deleted.
                      2. +2
                        19 August 2016 05: 46
                        Quote from rudolf
                        Poti! Damn, I can’t even imagine how you can drag a service under palm trees and overlooking a sandy beach with sunbathing ladies!

                        laughing You shouldn't be jealous, the service in Poti was both dangerous and difficult! Mosquitoes almost all year round, dirty pigs in the flowerbed in front of the District Committee, hot Georgian guys "eeeee ubery eyes, zarezhu" interfered with admiring the sunbathing ladies, the abundance of chacha played a cruel joke even with potential teetotalers, from constant shortages for things. In warehouses and battalions, the midshipman's comrades changed like gloves. bully The best seller was cork lifebuoys. But there were pluses of course. After entering Poti for six months on tangerines, allergies and bath brooms from relic eucalyptus
                        Quote from rudolf
                        Hills, snowstorm, frozen latrine in an officer hotel

                        laughing Mid-May, lying on the beach, between the contemplation of the sunbathing ladies I read a letter from a classmate from Gremikha ... "Sergei, thank God it's warmer here -20, you can walk without a hat!" wassat
                      3. The comment was deleted.
                      4. +2
                        19 August 2016 09: 07
                        Quote from rudolf
                        A piece of service fell on the 90s. You turn on the TV and you just don't understand what's going on. Officers fired in batches, lack of staff for all crews. The ships went to the "cemetery" on their own.

                        The same garbage, only in my version still friends-comrade officers overnight became opponents and constant begging to go over to the side of Ukraine.
                        Quote from rudolf
                        I wouldn’t envy and change my north for anything else

                        laughing we have a different mentality, I am a native of Central Asia and the North is contraindicated to me!
                      5. The comment was deleted.
  20. +1
    17 August 2016 00: 25
    Quote: silver_roman
    Quote: Verdun
    technological failure

    As I understand it, you mean microelectronics and element base.
    We have serious problems with this right now. And once they were leaders in this subject.
    The sad thing is that we have not heard about our "Baikal" CPU. This is of course an outdated technical process based on technologies 10 years ago, but nevertheless it is a base that must and can be developed.
    But as far as I know, they mainly use our circuits in critical nodes such as pr.955.


    Hmm ... Forgive me, an amateur in the field of microelectronics, a specialist in this field, but maybe someone will answer me the question: what is the bad element base for use in ship CMS? Are there any tasks that this database cannot handle?
    I would venture to suggest that even in aviation systems or in GOS missiles, most of the elements of artificial intelligence are expert systems. That is, these are some sets of rules created by people on the basis of their experience and designed in the form of algorithms suitable for use in the binary number system.
    Perhaps I am not right, but the rather old element base will quite cope with the tasks facing the BIUS. The main thing is not "hard", but "software".
    Maybe "cry for the element base" is a trick for knocking money out of the budget? Or am I wrong?
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. 0
      17 August 2016 14: 15
      Quote: Glad
      but what is bad about our elemental base for use in ship BIUS?

      For ship BIUS it may work, but here it is far from being only about ships.
      I heard rockets were a problem. Our blocks were not corny. It seems that then it was a question of the RVV-series (MD, SD, DB). Of course I can confuse.
      But, when I talked about microelectronics, I had in mind not only the military industry.
      It is trite that the Chinese, Koreans, I am silent about the Japanese, are developing their CPUs, producing their products, which of course are much inferior to the same Yankees, but nevertheless, due to profitability, it pays off and gradually occupies new markets. even take the fact that in our country practically do not create mobile phones. Except for one, which I don’t even take into account.
      Always finished products will cost the raw materials from which they are made. We are pushing for export millions of tons of primary raw materials, the same oil, but if we had refineries everywhere, the benefit would be much more painful. And this applies to the whole spectrum.
  21. 0
    18 August 2016 13: 43
    Eagles need to be upgraded! What does it all have to do with it! And if someone says no money to beat in the face! Is there a purchase cue for the commitments? And corvettes .... frigates ... it's all good ... it's important! But you need monsters! Which will terrify the enemy!
  22. The comment was deleted.
  23. +1
    18 August 2016 22: 54
    Thanks for the detailed answer, dear rudolff... From it I can conclude that the problem is still in the algorithms and, possibly, in the assembly and materials. Performance, in this case, is less critical, because in those time scales in which the submarine operates, there is not much difference, you will receive a response from the "hardware" in 5 seconds, or in 10.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  24. 0
    18 August 2016 23: 28
    Quote: silver_roman
    For ship BIUS it may work, but here it is far from being only about ships.
    I heard rockets were a problem. Our blocks were not corny. It seems that then it was a question of the RVV-series (MD, SD, DB). Of course I can confuse.

    However, if I do not confuse anything, then they nevertheless solved the problem, and solved it on our element base, and not on the Chinese one. Therefore, we can, if we want.

    Quote: silver_roman
    But, when I talked about microelectronics, I had in mind not only the military industry.

    But this is a completely different story, dear silver_roman... And this story applies not only to microcircuits. The essence of the problem can be summed up in one phrase: "We know how to make tanks, but not cars. Why?" And this problem is as old as the world. Only the reasons were different before - secrecy. Things are different now. The catch is that people in the government do not consider it necessary to develop their own production. What for? In their opinion, Russia looks great in the place of the West's raw material appendage. Maybe this issue will be solved someday. Only, I'm afraid, not in this life.
  25. 0
    19 August 2016 10: 15
    Quote from rudolf
    Glad, sometimes the time factor is critical and the score really goes for seconds. For example, an unexpected sonar signal similar to the sound of a torpedo launcher opening a mile to the right of the side or a rustle in two cable behind the stern resembling a torpedo.

    I will not argue. The situation is critical. However, if the commander of the "Los" detects the same noises and at the same distances, then the speed of the element base of his HAC will hardly help him. smile

    Quote from rudolf
    Here is an article by I. Sutyagin "US Navy" LOS ANGELES "LOS ANGELES" NUCLEAR SUBMARINE HYDROACOUSTIC COMPLEX.
    Was published in "Foreign Military Review" of 08.1995. Link: http://commi.narod.ru/txt/1995/0802.htm

    Thanks for the link, dear rudolff. hi It will be necessary to properly "turn the question".
  26. 0
    30 August 2016 14: 27
    What does the Mistral have to do with it? Or the author copied the article with a beard. Let me explain, the Mistrals sailed to Egypt ...
    1. 0
      30 August 2016 15: 15
      Quote: zero12005
      What does the Mistral have to do with it?

      Despite the fact that the ships were included in the GPV 2011-2020
  27. 0
    24 September 2016 11: 21
    Citizens, who can explain one simple thing to me? And why does the Russian Federation need a fleet (military) in general? For border protection? But for this, do you really need armada of destroyers and battleships?
    Where and why are you going to go on these ships? Which oceans?
    I have already seen articles on the problems of the Russian fleet more than once, then one thing is bad, then the other ... But the fleet is very EXPENSIVE! Why spend so much effort and money?