The defeat of the "Panther" 12-th SS Panzer Division in Bretteville-l'Orgeuse

61
6 June 1944, the Allies finally opened a second front in Western Europe. On this day, American, British and Canadian units successfully landed on five sites of the Normandy coast in France, and Operation Overlord began. For the successful development of the offensive deep into the continent, the Allied forces needed to capture the French city of Caen. This city was considered to be the key that would open to the troops of the allies in the south-east of France.

Caen, this ancient city of Normandy, played a crucial role in the system of transport communications on the Norman coast of France. In fact, it was the main link between the Cotentin peninsula and the rest of France. Both the Germans and the allies understood this perfectly well. The main task of the British Army 3 Infantry Division was the capture of this city on the first day of the invasion - June 6. In addition, the main tasks of the Allied forces in this direction were the capture and retention of the airfield Karpike, located in the vicinity of Caen at a distance of 18 kilometers from the coast; access to the landing zones of paratroopers of the 6 British Airborne Division, which was able to capture a number of bridges across the River Orne; capture the dominant heights near Caen.



The Allies' attempt to take Kang on the move failed. The Allied forces were only able to capture the city on July 20, 1944, and the battle of Caen itself lasted until August 6. In many ways, the plans of the Allies were foiled by the German tank divisions. Already at 16 o’clock on June 6, 1944, the Germans entered the battle of the 21st Panzer Division in this direction. This was the only tank division that began to act against the landing forces directly on the day of landing. The division could not throw the British and Canadians into the sea, however, they seriously confused their plans, preventing Kahn from taking on the first day of the operation and giving other tank and mechanized units of the Wehrmacht and SS troops access to the city.

Having managed to stop the advance of British and Canadian troops on Kahn 6 on June 1944, the German command began to carry out a plan for a powerful offensive on this sector. 7-9 June, trying to improve their positions before the upcoming offensive, the German troops carried out several local counterattacks on the allied forces. As a result, the most stubborn battles were fought by Canadians, who fought in the area of ​​the settlements of Rho, Bretteville-l'Orgeeuse and Norrey-en-Bessin.



Here the Allies first encountered the German Panthers, who during the battles in Normandy turned out to be a "hard nut" for them. In total, by the time the Allied troops landed in France 6 June 1944, the tank forces of the SS and Wehrmacht in the West had a total of 663 of the Panther tank in the West. This tank was distinguished by good frontal armor and a formidable long-barreled 75-mm gun, which made it possible to effectively hit all types of allied tanks. The only truly formidable rival for the German Panthers was only the British Sherman Firefly tank (firefly Sherman), re-armed with the British 17-pounder anti-tank gun (76,2-mm gun, 55 barrel length).

British and Canadian units could have encountered even more Panthers at Kan, but German industry could not produce this tank in the quantities required by the military. Initially, the Panther tanks planned to replace all Pz III and Pz IV tanks in combat units, but the pace of mass production could not meet the needs of troops in armored vehicles. In the end, the general inspector of the Wehrmacht’s tank forces, Colonel-General Heinz Guderian, after consulting with the Minister of Weapons Albert Speer, decided that only one battalion in the tank regiment should be re-equipped with new tanks.

The battalion should have included 4 companies with 17 Panther tanks in each. At the same time, the battalion headquarters also contained 8 tanks, an air defense platoon armed with a Mobelwagen or Wirbelwind ZSU, and an engineer platoon. Also in the battalion was supposed to have a technical company, equipped with various vehicles and evacuation tractors. In practice, the number of units in the German army never corresponded to the staffing table. So in parts of the Panzerwa there was an average 51-54 of the tank "Panther" in the battalion, and in the SS troops - the 61-64 of the tank.

The first appearance of "Panther"

The first appearance of the Panther tanks did not make a special impression on the Allies. The debut of a formidable cat on the western front came out crumpled and led to great tank losses. The first three Panther companies (approximately 40 tanks) arrived at the Kan front in the evening 8 June 1944. These were combat vehicles from the 12-th SS Panzer Division "Hitler Youth". The division was formed from more than 16 thousands of members of the Hitler Youth. 17-year-old members of this Nazi organization were called into it, who then received 6-month training. In addition, about a thousand soldiers and officers of SS veterans and experienced commanders from the Wehrmacht were transferred to the division. The division was redeployed to Normandy in the spring of 1944, at that time there were more than 20 thousand people and about 150 tanks. It was one of the most fanatically fighting German units. By 9 July 1944, the division lost in battles 60% of its original composition.

The defeat of the "Panther" 12-th SS Panzer Division in Bretteville-l'Orgeuse
The commander of the tank PzKpfw V "Panther" 12-th Panzer Division of the SS "Hitler Youth", in the commander's tower hatch, during the march as part of the column. Machines from the 3 Company. photo: waralbum.ru


Arriving at the front on the evening of 8 on June 1944 of the year, the Panthers of the 12 Panzer Division of the Hitler Youth attacked the allies at night, trying to seize the town of Ro. The Canadian infantry, which was in the village, did not resist for a long time, retreating to Bretville, where the Germans were awaited by a well-prepared defense. When the German tanks approached Bretwil, they were met with a barrage of anti-tank artillery, tanks and hand grenade launchers. As a result, several "Panther" were hit and burned. Canadian Joe Lapoynt, who entered a duel with Panther, hit the tank with three shots from a PIAT grenade launcher, especially in this battle. The German infantry also did not succeed and was forced to retreat, leaving their tanks without support. As a result, the "Panthers" went after her.

Unable to capture Bretville and Norrey in a night attack from 8 on 9 in June 1944, the Germans decided to repeat the offensive in the afternoon. However, they failed to prepare a truly powerful blow to the allies, since the SS 12 Panzer Division engaged in parts. This development not only weakened the offensive capabilities of the division, but also prevented the organization of full-fledged cooperation between tanks, infantry and artillery.

At noon on June 9, the 1 and Panther 3 companies (approximately 25 tanks) took part in the attack on Norray. Another tank company covered their actions, firing from the spot. At the same time, the German infantry almost did not support the attack, most likely for the reason that it was pressed against its trenches by strong Allied artillery fire. As a result, the German tanks were forced to act with little or no support, accompanied by only two or three dozen soldiers.

Panther, padded by Joe Lapoynt


"Panthers" rushed to Norway at maximum speed. At the same time, the 1 company tanks made a small stop and fired at the spire of the church, believing that Canadian observers could be hiding there. After that, the Panthers rushed forward again. The tanks had not yet reached the village when Canadian anti-tank guns opened fire on them. A transient battle took place. Although in this battle the German tankers destroyed a pair of guns, without losing a single tank of their own, the company commander decided not to tempt fate by ordering the tanks to retreat. The participation of the Panther 1 Company from the 12 SS Panzer Division in the 9 battle of June ended.

The beating "Panther" in Bretteville-l'Orgeuse

The Panther 3 company of the same tank division expected a much sadder fate. This company was commanded by Captain Luderman, who was urgently found to replace the main unit commander, who was wounded the day before. Very little is known about his personality; his name has not even been preserved in the sources. It is known that the 12 tanks of his company were advancing along the railway. At some point he gave the order to slow down and turn left, towards Norrey. According to Luderman, thus his “Panthers” were turning to Canadian anti-tank guns with their most protected part — their foreheads. However, in practice this order turned out to be fatal, only a few seconds passed and the shells of the allies flew into the Panthers, but not in the front, but on the right side. In just a few minutes of the battle the Germans lost 7 tanks - five destroyed and two shot down.

It all happened so quickly that the crews of the German tanks did not even understand who was shooting at them. The Panthers simply caught fire, and their crews tried to leave burning cars as soon as possible. Those who participated in this battle and survived later recalled him with horror. "Panther", commanded by Germany (the name and title is not preserved), was hit on the right side of the tower. The shell hit the gunner’s seat, causing a fire. Germani was an experienced tanker, before the battle he did not lock the lid of the commander's hatch. Thanks to this, he was able to leave the burning tank first. Gunner had to get out through the flames, he received serious burns.



The commander of another tank, the Panther, leaned out of the turret in order to look around and was killed by a direct hit by a shell. Another "Panther" got a lot of hits in the tracks and rollers, but managed to keep the course and somehow retreated to its original positions. Some of the 7 destroyed in this attack, "Panther" exploded the ammunition burst turret.

As a result, the remnants of the 3 Tank Company of the 12 Tank Division of the SS "Hitler Youth" retreated without seeing their opponent. Many tankers after the battle were shocked by what they saw and experienced. The commander of the company Luderman even had a nervous breakdown. The captain was sent to the hospital, where it took him several days to recover. One of the German officers who witnessed the beating of the “Panthers” in that battle, after the end of the Second World War, said: “I could then cry with rage and grief”.

Canadian Fireflies

Who in the end knocked out the "Panther"? Their killers were Sherman tanks from the reserve unit, which arrived to replenish the 1 Canadian hussar tank regiment. Among the 9 arrivals, tanks were somewhat in the Firefly (Firefly) modification, armed with long-barreled 76,2-mm guns that perfectly penetrated any of the German tanks. It was this allied tank that could fight on equal terms with the German Panthers and Tigers. An armor-piercing projectile of the English 17-pound cannon accelerated to 884 m / s, a sabot projectile - to 1204 m / s. At the same time, at a distance of 900 meters, an ordinary armor-piercing projectile of this weapon was piercing armor 110 mm thick, located at an angle of 30 degrees. An armor-piercing with a ballistic tip under the same conditions - 131 mm of armor, and a sabot projectile - 192 mm. This was more than enough to fight the Panther tank.

When the German tankers went on the attack on the Norrey, the Shermans were located in the neighborhood, not far from Bretville. The Panthers of the 3 Company, having made their turn, substituted the sides of the Canadian tanks. The sides of the panthers had a reservation of the entire 50-40 mm (top and bottom of the hull, respectively), the booking of the side of the tower was 45 mm. The firing distance was the same 900 meters. At this distance of the battle, the first shells fired by Canadians were able to find targets.

Sherman Firefly Tank


In this battle, the Canadian tank crew, commanded by Lieutenant Henry, especially distinguished himself. His gunner managed to knock out the 5 attacking the Panthers with five shots. Two more Fireflys were able to chalk up one of the seven Panthers that were left on the battlefield. In this case, the fire on the German tanks were all available "Shermans", so some "Panthers" received several hits at once. While the Fireflakes quite easily pierced their sides with armor-piercing projectiles, conventional Sherman tanks fired high-explosive fragmentation shells. They could not seriously harm the German tanks, but confused their crews, and also did not allow to monitor the surroundings, to find targets. That is why for German tankers it remains a mystery who exactly shot at them.

Canadian Sherman tanks on 9 on June 1944, were in the right place at the right time. And although the German troops carried out a counterattack suddenly, the Canadians were able to quickly navigate and do their job perfectly, without incurring losses in tanks on their part. At the same time, the German command was again convinced that haste in organizing and conducting tank attacks inevitably leads to the failure of the offensive. At the same time, this battle was the first victory of the Canadian tankers and their Shermans over the German Panthers.

Information sources:
http://worldoftanks.ru/ru/news/pc-browser/12/panthers_defeat_near_bretteville
http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/WWII/PzV/txt/PzV2.php
http://narkompoisk.ru/arhivy-dokumenty-analitika/2015/10/28/diviziya-ss-gitleryugend.html
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  1. +23
    August 5 2016
    "It was one of the most fanatically fighting German units."

    “Fanatical” does not mean “skillfully”, which was confirmed by further events.
    1. +11
      August 5 2016
      Very accurately said.
      Why didn’t they take their famous surroundings, but perl to break?
      Shooting on sparrows, it’s sorry unmasking.

      But the funny thing is another ...
      The firing range was those same 900 meters. At such a battle distance, the first cannons fired by the Canadians were able to find targets.

      We are being reproached, but here ... not a counter battle, but a battle on the defensive.
      Thirty-four couldn’t speak ... The German menagerie shot them for 2 km ... The question arises why didn’t Shermanov shoot a menagerie from a safe distance?)
      1. +3
        August 5 2016
        Somehow they posted a photo of aerial photographs of Normandy .......... an abundance of buildings a bunch of shrubs .. in. There is very little open space. Clashes took place at short distances
        1. -1
          August 5 2016
          Honestly - did not see. Googled and not very densely found.
          But for example, what I attached ... We would have been told, operational space - step from where and as you want. As for the shrubbery, it’s an obstacle to the tank like a can for a car.
          1. +8
            August 5 2016
            "In times of peace, these lands had an almost fairytale look. Lovely, graceful, tiny villages hid among the gentle hills. The villages were surrounded by fields, and the fields were delimited by picturesque hedges. It was these hedges that became deadly traps for the American army.
            The soils in Normandy are fertile, oily, devoid of glacial boulders. Due to the lack of stone, the Norman farmers, instead of erecting the walls dividing their fields (no more than three acres each), separated them by hedges and rows of trees. The roots grabbed deep into the ground and kept it from eroding. For seven centuries of Norman rule, erosion has corroded the soil, turning the shelterbelts into real earthen ramparts with a height of almost two to two and a half meters and a thickness of three to three and a half meters at the base. A tank could not break these natural barriers, fortified with the roots of trees and bushes.
            The territory of these so-called bocages stretched from the Omaha landing zone through the whole of Normandy for a distance of 15 to 180 kilometers. A more formidable barrier for highly mobile tank and motorized infantry units could not have been imagined by German generals. Even the illustrious Maginot and Siegfried lines looked pale next to them. "
            (c) B.Ya. Cooper "Deadly Traps"
        2. +5
          August 5 2016
          The battles in the maze of hedges have become one of the brightest nightmares of the Allied tankers. If interested, read "Deadly Traps" by Belton Cooper participant and eyewitness to the events, was an officer in the repair unit of the US Army Armored Division, an excellent book.
        3. +6
          August 5 2016
          Yeah. I was a tourist in Normandy. Everywhere ravines, gullies, narrow roads
          and densely surrounded on both sides by hedges of tall bushes.
          There the tank in ambush can not be seen from 5 meters. Houses are old manors like
          ready-made pillboxes: the thickness of the first floors is a meter or more.
        4. 0
          August 6 2016
          Saw a documentary of Wittmann's last fight. Where his crew shot a Sherman column. It was quite a distance of 1 km. And all the shelters were roadside trees. Which, however, did not stop just picking up and shooting the entire column with impunity.

          It is said that Wittmann’s crew most likely died from a random successful air attack. PC hit.
      2. +7
        August 5 2016
        Quote: ShadowCat
        no oncoming battle

        What an American-style counter battle is, is depicted in the film "Rage". laughing
        Quote: ShadowCat
        Why didn’t they take their famous surroundings, but perl to break?

        Yes because "12th SS Panzer Division Hitler Youth. The division was formed from more than 16 thousand members of the Hitler Youth. 17-year-old members of this Nazi organization were recruited into it, who then underwent 6-month training." Experienced crews and commanders, first slowly and slowly, and then more and more intensely were knocked out on the eastern front.
        1. +4
          August 5 2016
          Quote: Vladimirets
          Experienced crews and commanders, first slowly and slowly, and then more and more intensely were knocked out on the eastern front.

          So who argues? The Red Army also pretty much dipped in the tank and crews in 1941-1942, I think I will not argue either, and where did we have to scrape.
          (He looked. Even in the hardest 1941, our bar wasn’t lower than a year for officers, but they were drunk for 8 hours of classes + 4 hours of self-training. For the current generation, it probably looks like hell. (But you still have to sleep, eat and go to the toilet )))

          In any case, a more or less experienced commander could give the opportunity to win, but apparently he was not there, or they simply did not trust him and decided to put a fanatic, which led to a logical ending.
        2. +7
          August 5 2016
          It was one of the most trained and motivated divisions.
          in Germany at that time. These were ideological volunteers with a long
          military training.
      3. +5
        August 5 2016
        Quote: ShadowCat
        Thirty-four couldn’t speak ... The German menagerie was shooting them for 2km ... The question arises: why didn’t Shermanov shoot the menagerie from a safe distance?)

        Here is the same case when our T-34s in the first battle were shot by the "Royal Tigers". The Germans could not, for various reasons, open up the enemy's defenses, they very much hoped for the "impenetrability" of their "cats". So we got it. As the hero of one of our films used to say: "Well, it was necessary to show them that this is not the 41st year"
        1. +3
          August 5 2016
          Quote: svp67
          Here is the same case when our T-34s in the first battle were shot by the "Royal Tigers".

          As I recall, the commander of the T-34 squad holding the defense received a hero for this, and even several German tanks abandoned by the crew were sent to the rear. I don’t remember the name of the hero. It’s a pity, but the memory of my names is weak ((

          Quote: svp67
          The Germans could not, for various reasons, open the enemy defenses

          Because since the year 1943, they have somehow suddenly become numb. Instead of cutting strikes characteristic of 1941 (I judge on our front), not getting involved in fights, but cutting off the rear, they started either rubbing on the forehead, getting involved in small-town clashes, or introducing units in units.

          Yes, they fought, but it was more like agony than normal fighting. They did not even produce tactical results; I generally keep silent about the strategic and geopolitical level.
          1. +6
            August 5 2016
            Quote: ShadowCat
            Because since the year 1943, they have somehow suddenly become numb.

            We learned how to fight, and, accordingly, forced them to "blunt". Even if we recall the battles on Lake Balaton, where our troops simply "missed" almost everything at the initial stage, the experience gained in this war made it possible to neutralize the German success.
            Quote: ShadowCat
            Yes, they fought, but it was more like agony than normal fighting. They did not even produce tactical results; I generally keep silent about the strategic and geopolitical level.

            This is what betting on "Blitzkrieg" leads to
          2. +4
            August 6 2016
            "Because since 1943 they have somehow become sharply dull" ////

            This is not true. Wehrmacht managed to carry out operations on the environment
            on the Eastern Front and in 1944, but there was no longer any strength to destroy or
            to capture the surrounded. And if this is not done quickly, then others themselves
            are trapped.
            After Kursk, the Germans had to completely switch to defensive tactics.
        2. +1
          August 5 2016
          If you are talking about a battle near the village of Oglenduv, then besides the T-34-85 CT, artillery also worked with ISs. But one CT recorded on the account of T-34-85, commander ml. Lieutenant Oskin A.P. His tank performed one of the main roles in this ambush.
    2. +2
      August 5 2016
      Quote: Vladimirets
      “Fanatical” does not mean “skillfully”, which was confirmed by further events.

      Nevertheless, they fought until the last days ...
      1. 0
        August 5 2016
        Quote: svp67
        Nevertheless, they fought until the last days ...

        Who is arguing?
    3. 0
      August 6 2016
      as well as the fact that on the "Fireflay" there was an English cannon remotely equivalent to a German one does not mean that this kettle could fight on equal terms
      Germans could pierce them in the forehead for 1,5-2 kilometers

      Well, yes, immediately 7 German tanks without proper reconnaissance set the Canadians on board, there were no casualties themselves, Canadians have something to remember
      1. 0
        August 6 2016
        Simpsonian

        The best way out in an ambush is to run maneuvering. The main thing is to run away from the ambush. Worse when vice versa. But this is how lucky.

        I wouldn’t start an attack without reconnaissance and fire cover.

        Probably the Germans pressed the Germans great time, since they had gone randomly. And yet, it was not necessary.
    4. lel
      0
      August 7 2016
      as I understand it, there were fascist newcomers who were not shot and inexperienced, and therefore they got what they deserved ...
  2. +3
    August 5 2016
    in war as in war
  3. +6
    August 5 2016
    Thank you. Interesting.
    Somewhat out of topic. At least two Shermans have been raised since the day of the sea
  4. +11
    August 5 2016
    Quote: igordok
    Thank you. Interesting.
    Somewhat out of topic. At least two Shermans have been raised since the day of the sea

    Gut, but I would be more happy about this event:

    Also recently pulled out.
    1. +3
      August 5 2016
      Yes, I agree, a good find.
      Discussed at VO "A unique T-34 was raised in the Voronezh region"
      https://topwar.ru/98081-v-voronezhskoy-oblasti-podnyali-unikalnyy-t-34.html
  5. +12
    August 5 2016
    "In this battle, the crew of a Canadian tank, commanded by Lieutenant Henry, especially distinguished themselves. His gunner managed to knock out 5 attacking Panthers with five shots. Two more Fireflies were able to chalk up one of the seven Panthers that remained on the field. At the same time, all available Shermans fired at the German tanks, so some of the Panthers received several hits at once. "
    That is, all Shermans fired unknown where, and did Lieutenant Henry's tank have marked targets (or shells)? How, while firing at the same time, 9 tanks clearly identified who knocked out 5 of the 7 Panthers?
    1. +11
      August 5 2016
      I managed to report FIRST !!!
  6. +4
    August 5 2016
    Sasha Tomzov, friend, you began to write articles on Topvar !?

    текст
    The 3th company of the Panther of the same tank division had a much more sad fate. This company was commanded by Captain Luderman, who was urgently found to replace the main unit commander who was injured the day before.

    warspot
    The Panther 3 company was in for a much more sad fate. The unit was commanded by a certain captain Ludeman, who was urgently found to replace the main commander, wounded the day before.



    текст
    It is known that 12 tanks of his company were advancing along the railway. At some point, he gave the order to slow down and turn left, towards Norrey. According to Luderman, thus, his “Panthers” turned to the Canadian anti-tank guns with their most protected part - the forehead. However, in practice, this order turned out to be fatal, only a few seconds passed and the Allied shells flew into Panther, but not from the front, but from the right side. In just a few minutes of the battle, the Germans lost 7 tanks - five destroyed and two wrecked.

    warspot
    12 tank companies were advancing rapidly along the railway. Then Ludeman ordered to slow down and turn left, towards Norrea. In his opinion, in this way the Panthers were deployed to the Canadian anti-tank guns of the most protected - frontal - armor. This order was fatal. A few seconds passed, and the "Panthers" really flew shells. But not in front, but on the right. In just a few minutes, five tanks were destroyed and two were destroyed.



    текст
    Who ultimately knocked out the Panthers? Their killers were Sherman tanks from the reserve unit, which arrived to replenish the 1-th Canadian hussar tank regiment. Among the 9 tanks that arrived, there were several in the Firefly (Firefly) modification, armed with long-barreled 76,2-mm guns that perfectly pierced any of the German tanks.

    warspot
    Who knocked out the Panthers? These were the Sherman tanks from the reserve unit, which arrived to replenish the Canadian 1 hussar tank regiment. Among these nine vehicles were a few Firefly (Firefly) modifications, armed with 17-pound (76,2-mm) guns that perfectly penetrated any German tank.
    .

    http://warspot.ru/4152-porazhenie-panter-u-bretvil-l-orgeyyoz
  7. 0
    August 5 2016
    And the meat burned on the tankers, as in 1941
  8. +3
    August 5 2016
    In the described period, the Germans at the west had only 156 panthers, including sky-ready ones, in August in France 432, in December in the Ardennes 471

    The Germans failed to drop the landing force into the sea only because of the battle of the battleships (heavy tanks turned over, and the team died from shell shock even if the shell fell dozens of meters from the target).
    1. +3
      August 5 2016
      Quote: Simpsonian
      Germans failed to drop the landing force into the sea only because of the battleship’s barrage

      there were many factors - and perhaps the main one - the Germans' strategic mistake in determining the zone of the main landing (and from the Anglo-Saxons - a skillful disinformation operation).

      And the reserves were transferred too late and not in parts, and were wiped out from the air.

      So the rehearsal in Dieppe and its implementation in Algeria in 42 and in Sicily in 43 were not in vain.
      1. 0
        August 6 2016
        The main factor is the shortage of aviation fuel, and this one is the same as later in Busan, when it was not possible to eliminate the bridgehead.
      2. 0
        August 6 2016
        Warrior

        This fence line the Germans at the coastline was not completed.

        A very expensive and massive project. And the attack began in the most unprotected place. And then by accident.

        As it turned out, met (Britons), one German machine gunner with a stock of 2000 rounds. He shot from a regular trench. When the cartridges ran out, this 18 jerk continued to shoot with a rifle.

        The platoon in which he served was away from the tip of the strike. And then they fled to align the front line :). And that heroic kid was just on guard. So it happens. Well, the heroism during the landing can then be portrayed.

        Well, the mega construction did not help the Germans at all.

        By the way, he survived.
  9. peter_sever
    +3
    August 5 2016
    Quote: Simpsonian
    The Germans failed to drop the landing force into the sea only because of the battle of the battleships (heavy tanks turned over, and the team died from shell shock even if the shell fell dozens of meters from the target).


    As far as I know, the allies had problems during the landing only in the Omaha sector, due to the fact that due to fog it was not possible to destroy the German coastal fortifications. As far as I know, the German tank units were at a considerable distance from the landing site in "D Day"
    1. 0
      August 6 2016
      for example, newsreels with panthers turned upside down in view of the beach and large funnels nearby

      for the same reason, Sevastopol held on for a long time and Leningrad held on due to the coastal artillery fence
    2. 0
      August 6 2016
      peter

      Yes, the Germans had a mobile cover. Which by the way successfully spoiled the life of the allies. So much so that they almost finished off all the allied attempts.

      It worked very well.
  10. +2
    August 5 2016
    I agree ... an ambush. What do you do, pure beating of the Panthers. In an oncoming battle, the result could be different ... And so the Germans "got".
    1. +4
      August 5 2016
      Recently I read the book "I fought in the T-34". It describes the memories of Soviet tank crews of the Second World War. Veterans say that the Panthers and Tigers, acting from ambushes, very much annoyed our tanks. In fact, every such German ambush turned into a beating of thirty-fours.
      On the other hand, if German "cats" fell into a Soviet tank ambush, then the wool flew from them in different directions.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. 0
          August 5 2016
          Quote: svp67
          I will probably reveal to you the secret of Punchinelle, but in the same way, during the action of our tanks, German "cats" were beaten from ambushes.


          I’m probably going to tell you the secret of the Opener as well, but it is advisable to read the comments carefully and to the end, so as not to look silly)) In the second paragraph, I said just that.

          Quote: svp67
          The specifics of tank battles, you know ...


          Yes, where should I)) "Specificity". I don't even know the words)))
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. 0
              August 5 2016
              Quote: svp67
              You don’t know, but all the same ...


              And I know another word, I just won’t say it, otherwise you and the moderator will be very offended))) wassat
              1. The comment was deleted.
            2. The comment was deleted.
    2. +2
      August 5 2016
      Quote: Voodoo
      And so the Germans "got"

      The issue of "luck" or "bad luck" of the commander is not fully understood, but it is very well felt by the personnel of the unit and strongly affects his desire to go into battle.
  11. +1
    August 5 2016
    Quote: ShadowCat
    Honestly - did not see. Googled and not very densely found.
    But for example, what I attached ... We would have been told, operational space - step from where and as you want. As for the shrubbery, it’s an obstacle to the tank like a can for a car.

    This is not the famous Norman bokkazhi. Tanks could not drive, stuck. The Allies had to make special devices for tanks.
    1. 0
      August 5 2016
      Not only stuck, there are also Germans with panzerfausts
  12. +1
    August 5 2016
    our 85mm gun from the T-34-85 is interesting, how to relate to the 76,2 mm gun from Firefly? In general, there is little statistics on the penetration of German tanks from this gun.
    1. +2
      August 5 2016
      Quote: Zaurbek
      our 85mm gun from the T-34-85 is interesting, how to relate to the 76,2 mm gun from Firefly?

      Almost equivalent. Our higher fragmentation-high explosive effect, the English, slightly higher armor penetration.
    2. +1
      August 5 2016
      The gun was no worse, but the quality of the ammunition was lame.
      1. +1
        August 6 2016
        Bad "dirty" gunpowder. To improve its quality, it was mixed
        with pure American Lend-Lease. As a result, an acceptable
        the initial velocity of the projectile.
        The T-34-85 problem was not a gun, but a 45 mm forehead of the hull that made its way
        from everything that shot the anti-tank at the enemy.
    3. +2
      August 5 2016
      I have about the regular 76-mm M1 our 76 and our 85 who shot on CT
  13. +2
    August 5 2016
    SS tankers the enemy was very dangerous. Canadians are very lucky. and the Shermans too.
    1. 0
      August 6 2016
      zaurbek

      Canadians retreated undercover. They already knew the general advancing forces and the direction of the strike. Therefore, they were able to organize an ambush.

      The Germans were just breaking into a breach. Too confident ...
    2. 0
      30 September 2016
      But they were not always so lucky. How much did Wittmann set up with a successful attack on unprepared Britons (or were the Canadians there?) Under Willer-Bocage? Even if I attributed a little to myself, it still comes out decently.
  14. 0
    October 5 2016
    [quote = svp67] The Germans could not, for various reasons, open the enemy’s defenses [/ quote]
    Because since the year 1943, they have somehow suddenly become numb. Instead of cutting strikes characteristic of 1941 (I judge on our front), not getting involved in fights, but cutting off the rear, they started either rubbing on the forehead, getting involved in small-town clashes, or introducing units in units.

    Yes, they fought, but it was more like agony than normal fighting. They didn’t even give tactical results, I generally am silent about the strategic and geopolitical level. [/ Quote]
    The Germans fought well until the end, but the Russians learned to fight no worse and reflected all the attempts of encirclement.

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