Military Review

The decision on the fate of the second three frigates of the project 11356 has not yet been made

93
The fate of the second three patrol ships of the 11356 project, destined for the Black Sea Fleet, has not yet been resolved, although Rosoboronexport’s negotiations on the supply of these ships to third countries are known, reports RIA News message from the Vice-President of the United Shipbuilding Corporation Igor Ponomarev.

The Trikand frigate of the 11356 project, built by the Yantar plant for the Indian Navy, 2013.

Earlier in the "Rosoboronexport" stated that negotiations "on the supply of an additional party and the subsequent licensed production of frigates of the project 11356" are conducted with India. It was noted that the Indian fleet "already has six Talwar frigates, predecessors of the 11356 project, designed for export."

“The ships of the second three are built at the Baltic shipbuilding plant" Yantar "in accordance with the state defense order. The decision to transfer these ships to third countries has not yet been finally made. Although it is known that such negotiations are conducted by Rosoboronexport, ”
said the corporation's vice president.

Recall that the construction of these ships was suspended due to the refusal of Ukraine to supply gas turbine power plants.
Photos used:
www.livefistdefence.com
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  1. Hunt
    Hunt 30 July 2016 12: 57
    +5
    But this is bad! Well, the country really needs them. Are there really no technologies for building ship engines?
    1. Alex777
      Alex777 30 July 2016 13: 15
      +11
      Quote: Hunter
      But this is bad! Well, the country really needs them. Are there really no technologies for building ship engines?

      If it were my will, I would build such ships instead of corvettes.
      A lot of. With shells instead of the AK-630. Pieces of 9-12 for each fleet.
      A 22350 displacement should be increased by 1000-1500 tons and something like Rif-M ++ set. Then there will be a normal escort ship. hi
      1. Berkut24
        Berkut24 30 July 2016 20: 38
        +12
        Firstly, the project is far from the newest and most relevant in itself. Already written many times. They are building exclusively for the Black Sea Fleet and not from a good life, but it seems that the replacement has already taken place.
        Secondly, adaptation of the "Shell" to sea conditions has not been completed. There are no test results and it is not known when they will be. And the ships are needed the day before yesterday.
        And to increase the displacement of 22350 at a time when the project is not only approved and not only built, but has already been launched for testing - this is generally out of the realm of fantasy and means a complete redesign of the project "for expensive" and within 3 years at least. In my opinion, project 22350 is already quite balanced, the only thing that can be corrected is the ship's rather weak air defense system.
        1. Alex777
          Alex777 30 July 2016 22: 23
          +3
          As for the Armor, the topic is a separate, interesting one. The manufacturer is simultaneously "numb" and makes a hypersonic missile defense system. The SAM is interesting and, if successful, will give a revolutionary breakthrough. The firing range is 40 km. Maneuvering in the final section of the trajectory using the second stage engine. The current Carapace has only a booster engine.
          The main drawback of 22350 in my opinion is the range. For an escort ship, you need 6000 miles with at least 18 knots. IMHO if on a fuel frigate for 2 helicopter flights - then why is this helicopter needed at all? So here the supply of volume also does not hurt.
          Much more can be said about powerful generators, etc., but all this is lyrics. I’ll just attach one photo. Here and air defense corrected and much more ...
          1. cniza
            cniza 30 July 2016 22: 54
            +6
            Recall that the construction of these ships was suspended due to the refusal of Ukraine to supply gas turbine power plants.


            No doubt . Our specialists will find a solution. and Khokhlov physical education - hello
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. Tusv
            Tusv 31 July 2016 05: 07
            +2
            Quote: Alex777
            The main drawback of 22350 in my opinion is the range. For an escort ship, you need 6000 miles with at least 18 knots. IMHO if on a fuel frigate for 2 helicopter flights - then why is this helicopter needed at all?

            Well, if we consider the watchman from the point of view of an escort, then in a normal squadron there is always room for a tanker, and a helicopter is so that the summarians are afraid
            1. silver_roman
              silver_roman 1 August 2016 16: 23
              0
              Quote: Tusv
              a helicopter so that the summarines are afraid

              and + beyond-the-horizon control center is not bad channel.
          4. Berkut24
            Berkut24 31 July 2016 09: 05
            +3
            The main drawback of 22350 in my opinion is the range.

            If we talk about using 22350 as an escort ship, you first need to decide who and what he will escort. The decision on the creation of aircraft carriers will be made when project 22350 is already completed in a series, and when / if the first aircraft carrier is built, then 22350 will already be an old man.
            In general, there is a tendency in which the largest ships in the fleet - be it the Orlan or the future Leader - are being made self-sufficient floating arsenals with virtually unlimited range. Those. our concept has some differences from the American one, where the escort covers the "floating airfield", without which the squadron loses its range and becomes almost useless in solving its usual tasks. Here the leader of the group can stand up for himself and cover the escort. In this case, the group's armament allows you to "reach" the target without approaching the shore.
            At the same time, we should not forget that supply ships and tankers that are already launching should be part of our compound. Those. 22350 in the group will have a completely different range.
            To date, 22350 is still in fact a coastal defense ship and the range for this purpose is sufficient. The ocean fleet must be different. That is why the Ministry of Defense is inclined towards the gradual transition of large ships to nuclear power plants, so that the entire connection of ships does not have problems with this very range.
            1. Alex777
              Alex777 31 July 2016 19: 35
              0
              Quote: Berkut24
              To date, 22350 is still in fact a coastal defense ship and the range for this purpose is sufficient.

              Too expensive for this role. And they built it like an escort.
              And for the defense of the coastal zone 11356 is enough. And it’s 2 times cheaper.
            2. silver_roman
              silver_roman 1 August 2016 16: 26
              0
              Leaders are not planned to have as Berkov under 80 pieces.
              Besides, it seems to me that we don’t really need an aircraft carrier. I am sure that Amer’s AUGs can be drowned without much difficulty. Another thing is that this does not happen for subjective reasons.
              We have complex coastal areas, estuaries of many rivers, we need boats of the coastal zone. So we will never get away from RTOs. Another thing is that 11356 are not needed, just 22350 have not yet been finished.
    2. NEXUS
      NEXUS 30 July 2016 15: 08
      +5
      Quote: Hunter
      Are there really no technologies for building ship engines?

      As far as I know, the domestic GSU is undergoing tests now, which shows better characteristics than the Ukrainian counterpart. But on the GSI, the correction of shortcomings and refinement takes time.
    3. Denis Obukhov
      Denis Obukhov 30 July 2016 15: 14
      +10
      Well I do not know. The engines will be ready for delivery to frigates in 2018, maybe in 2019. You can wait a couple of years, even if the frigates are not of the 22350 Gorshkov level, nevertheless, they are worthy ships with anti-aircraft missiles, anti-aircraft missiles, and anti-ship missiles.
      Do we have a surplus of new ships?
    4. Nehist
      Nehist 30 July 2016 15: 59
      -4
      Yes, everything is there !!! Only collect no one !!!! They drove up the Techno-re and drove the whole Base well and a penny !!! For everything except salary is growing in this country
      1. vmo
        vmo 30 July 2016 19: 27
        0
        Stop moaning, but what did you do?
      2. BilliBoms09
        BilliBoms09 31 July 2016 10: 35
        0
        For everything except salary is growing in this country
        Symptom on the face !!! Not in our country, but "in this country."
    5. Dart2027
      Dart2027 30 July 2016 16: 00
      0
      We just need specific engines that are incorporated in the design.
      1. NEXUS
        NEXUS 30 July 2016 16: 09
        +2
        Quote: Dart2027
        We just need specific engines that are incorporated in the design.

        Those GSOs, which were included in the design, were supplied to us by Ukraine ... Ukrainians no longer sell these power plants to us. Therefore, the "admiral" frigates cannot finish, waiting for the completion of the GSI of the domestic gas turbine power plant.
        1. Dart2027
          Dart2027 30 July 2016 17: 00
          +1
          Quote: NEXUS
          awaiting the completion of the GSI of the domestic gas turbine power plant

          Most likely, this will not end there. We must either make a copy of the Ukrainian turbine, or remake the ship under ours.
          1. Dart2027
            Dart2027 30 July 2016 20: 59
            +3
            Well, why are the cons?
            Replacing one power plant with another is at least a quarter of the ship to do again. Any engineer will confirm.
            1. ava09
              ava09 30 July 2016 21: 19
              +10
              Quote: Dart2027
              Well, why are the cons?

              To the electorate "patriotism" is not enough!))))) But seriously, there are many members of the forum who "think" with emotions. Objectivity is for them I do not know in what place, but clearly not in the first place. I suspect that it is not included in the range of concepts of some at all, you give them positive emotions, they will gladly "splash" ...)
              1. Roman 11
                Roman 11 31 July 2016 15: 51
                +2
                Quote: ava09
                you give them positive emotions, they will gladly "splash" ...)

                Drug addicts? laughing
        2. donavi49
          donavi49 30 July 2016 17: 04
          +5
          No.

          Establish M90FR. Plus, there are different others in the work afterburners turbines of lesser / greater power.

          11356 operates on a scheme of 2 marching turbines + 2 afterburners.
          22350 operates on a scheme of 2 marching diesel engines + 2 afterburner turbines.

          If the afterburners can still be replaced (it is difficult at Butakov), having worked nicely with files and digested the bases. So there are no marching and will not be in the foreseeable future. Moreover, marching there need certain.

          Total options:
          1) Sell India.
          2) Convert the ships under the scheme of 2 mid-flight diesel engines + 2 afterburner turbines. This will affect the running, price and timing.
          3) Dismantle the hull to Borodin and Fog. The truth is where to put the ordered equipment, the question. The same Styles, Frigates, BIOs, etc.
          1. Berkut24
            Berkut24 30 July 2016 23: 23
            +3
            The technical level of what Zorya Mashproekt supplied us is the solutions of the late 70s of the last century. There was only one reason to buy this equipment - cheapness. On the one hand, it saved money when building the ship. On the other hand, the cheapness and sophistication of not the most advanced design completely killed the desire to design something of their own. As a result, the country with the longest maritime border did not produce engines for its ships.
            Once it had to be changed. And I am convinced that a solution will be found. For solutions for new aircraft engines have appeared, which means that there is already engineering and production potential on the topic. This stage once had to go through. Ukraine straightened our brains. Now she will find a competitor in another niche. Like helicopter engines.
      2. Xnumx vis
        Xnumx vis 30 July 2016 23: 12
        +3
        Buy engines through third or fifth parties and deliver. After the revolution, tanks were bought and brought under the guise of tractors. As well as other equipment. Airplanes, engines Steam locomotives. Forgotten how to conduct secret operations. But they learned to hide money offshore. Thief!
    6. Orionvit
      Orionvit 30 July 2016 18: 23
      -1
      Yes, do not worry about the power plants. Russia will get out. Here in the USSR they built everything from scratch, and nothing, they managed, even plugged the west into the belt.
    7. dmi.pris
      dmi.pris 30 July 2016 19: 23
      0
      A question for the labeled one, it’s too late to ask the EBE .. I need to finish building for myself .. Domestic gas turbines will be in a couple of years.
      Quote: Hunter
      But this is bad! Well, the country really needs them. Are there really no technologies for building ship engines?
  2. Wiruz
    Wiruz 30 July 2016 12: 59
    +4
    Yes, we have our own series here, however, worse than the Indians with the Raphaels! How many times has this topic been procrastinated ?! It seems they’ve already decided, we’ll not sell it, let’s put it into the water, we’ll put it at the berth and we will wait for domestic engines.
    1. Gladius
      Gladius 30 July 2016 13: 18
      +2
      Quote: Wiruz
      Yes, we have our own series here, however, worse than the Indians with the Raphaels! How many times has this topic been procrastinated ?! It seems they’ve already decided, we’ll not sell it, let’s put it into the water, we’ll put it at the berth and we will wait for domestic engines.

      The ship at the berth will become obsolete morally and physically.
      1. Wiruz
        Wiruz 30 July 2016 13: 34
        +1
        So it’s not like waiting a long time, in 2018 they promise to establish mass production of ship engines.
        To me, frigates pr.11356, to be honest, they are not pretty at all, but it’s better to leave them to yourself rather than sell them, since pr.22350 is difficult request
        1. g1v2
          g1v2 30 July 2016 13: 58
          +18
          There is only one but. The production of only afterburning GTE M90FR, which are on both series of frigates, is being established. But nothing is heard about the development of marching gas turbines. Donavia has already explained something, but let me remind you.
          On frigates 22350 there are CODAG type power plants - that is, 10D49 marching diesel engines plus M90FR afterburners.
          On frigates 11356 there are COGAG type power plants - that is, marching gas turbines plus afterburning gas turbines M90FR.
          The production of afterburning GTE M90FR is being established and by 2018 they will obviously be. PM frigates 22350 will be gradually equipped with them.
          But what they cannot do with the second triple 11356. They were laid, because they were worked out and they could be quickly built, which is evident from the first three, which will be all commissioned this year, since Makarov is the third of it. For the second three, you need 3 pairs of marching gtu, that is, only 6 pieces. To deploy production for the sake of 6 pieces is in no way profitable, since after that it will need to be minimized. You can wait for the Ukrainians to give them away for a long time. The option is to sell the ships to the Indians, everyone is happy, because Ukraine is ready to sell the GTD to the Indians, but the Indians are aware of the situation and seem to be trying to bring down the price.
          There is another option - to redesign for a diesel engine, but this is also very long. And the fourth ship of the Admiral Butakov series has also been launched.
          That’s been decided for two years. There is of course an option still in my opinion - still make ukrov give the gas turbine engine, blackmailing them with something. In general, of course, much here depends on the hands of the enterprise. The Cossacks do not take a steam bath and sell us helicopter engines, bypassing the prohibitions. But nikolayevets so do not want. hi
          1. kepmor
            kepmor 30 July 2016 14: 44
            +14
            Damn, why are we in Russia used to doing everything through the tremendous ... opu?
            There is also excellent experience in operating gas turbine ships in the USSR - projects 61,1135,1134B, 1155!
            Indeed, in terms of motor resources and ease of maintenance equal to GTU, nothing has been invented yet!
            Just compare the service life of ships with GTU and other engines! Heaven and earth, as they say! Neither "locomotives", nor a diesel engine, and "were not near"!
            He himself commanded the IPC 1124, where there was a mixed scheme - the marching M-507 diesel engines and the turbine! And at sea he always tried to walk more under the turbine than on diesel engines, they were very moody in service.
            One drawback of our turbines - they took a lot of hodgepodge, it is a fact!
            Our diesels, that the main ones, that the auxiliary ones are just "hell" for the mechanics!
            Well, we can’t make high-quality ship diesels like the Germans, Swedes or Japanese, there isn’t that technological culture, just not!
            Our Kolomenskoe to "sultzer", as to Shanghai on foot ... and by the motor resource, and by the consumption of the hodgepodge and by the control system. It's a shame, but it's a fact!
            Yes, they are now promoting the 10D49 diesel engine in full, they say, its prototype has proven itself well on locomotives, but the fact of the matter is that ship diesel engines are more complicated than locomotive ones and the conditions and loads are completely different. And they really haven't been tested on ships yet, because. the same "Gorshkov" covered a maximum of about 10000 miles - for statistics it is pshyk!
            And our shipbuilders, let's copy the Germans, put a mixed scheme. Only before it was necessary to learn how to make the same diesel engine with gas ducts, and to train sailors in proper operation, and to create a service department in the fleets, as the Germans did all this!
            Back in Soviet times, the "industry" themselves admitted that a mixed layout of the main engines was an unfortunate decision - you need cleanly or diesel engines or turbines! Then the ship will serve for a long time!
          2. AID.S
            AID.S 30 July 2016 16: 23
            +1
            Quote: g1v2
            To deploy production for the sake of 6 pieces is in no way profitable, since after that it will need to be minimized.

            But what, this model, and the entire line of gas turbines is outdated and Russia does not need and ideas to use it in other projects? Why not deploy production and compete with Nikolaev? So to speak, look into the future ..
            1. Garris199
              Garris199 30 July 2016 23: 22
              0
              I support the question. Other ships marching gas turbines of this type are not needed / will not fit or what?
        2. severyanin
          severyanin 30 July 2016 14: 02
          +5
          Quote: Wiruz
          To me, frigates of the pr. 11356, to be honest, are not pretty at all,

          Be that as it may, this is a direct descendant of the 1135-x series - the largest series of Soviet gas turbine ships, not very strong in armament, but with a very successful power plant, which almost without change migrated to the BNK of the 1155 project hi
      2. severyanin
        severyanin 30 July 2016 13: 59
        +10
        Quote: Gladius
        The ship at the berth will become obsolete morally and physically.

        These ships were modern at the beginning of the 2000's, they are being built now not from a good life, but to plug yawning holes in the fleet over surface ships!
        When I was studying at one of the naval institutes in those days, I wrote my thesis on the Talvar project, a special question was on the control systems of the power plant - then yes, it was almost fantastic - everything is automated, everywhere monitors ... domestic ships seemed like steam battleships of the Tsushima times in comparison with these frigates, and it was terribly insulting that all this beauty was for the Indians ... crying
      3. Vladimir 1964
        Vladimir 1964 30 July 2016 16: 00
        +1
        Quote: Gladius

        The ship at the berth will become obsolete morally and physically.

        Really competent thought, colleague. Unfortunately, in this situation, waiting will in no way increase the combat effectiveness of our fleet. And a simple warble at the mooring wall, in an unfinished state, only exacerbates the situation. hi
      4. alexmach
        alexmach 30 July 2016 22: 44
        +2
        Will become obsolete. But what do you offer? Sell ​​the Hindus? First, damage to the image. Secondly, nonetheless there should be non-import equipment, it is not clear what scope of work needs to be done to prepare it for sale. Thirdly, the Indians, knowing the situation, will surely twist their hands to the fullest.

        We can’t finish building, and it’s not clear whether we can.

        There is only one way out, it is worth it to preserve and eat. Perhaps a solution will appear. Relations may improve, even if not with the whole of Ukraine, well, at least with its part. Maybe they will become unnecessary - it will be possible to sell ... or to cut ...

        The ship is certainly not new, but there is a nuance. 22350 are still not accepted for service. How successful they will be in operation, and what their real combat characteristics will be, is not yet clear. Suddenly Polen-Redoubt will not fly up, what will happen to the power plant? And with seaworthiness?

        We will bake like pies 22350 - we will write off these - sell. So far, the prospects for 22350 are not very clear.
  3. Banishing liberoids
    Banishing liberoids 30 July 2016 12: 59
    +5
    There are two options - to leave Russia, and wait for the appearance of diesel engines for them, or buy turbines or diesel engines through third countries, put them on the boxes and use them for their intended purpose - that is, let them serve Russia.
    1. Phosgene
      Phosgene 30 July 2016 13: 12
      +2
      I agree with you. If you do not have your own turbines, then, as a temporary measure, the purchase of Chinese will come down.
      1. aba
        aba 30 July 2016 13: 21
        +4
        the purchase of the Chinese will do.

        China is direct Greece, in which there is everything!
        When will Russia come at least to the level of Greece?
        Over 25 years have passed since there was no Union, and during that time no one was bothered by the question that Russia was paying someone jobs abroad, so that our ships would go.
        1. Phosgene
          Phosgene 30 July 2016 13: 27
          +3
          Greece is not Greece and Chinese engines in terms of resources are worse than ours, but since domestic turbines are not yet ready, we need to buy Chinese ones, since the Russian government, out of great mind, did not timely launch their release in the Russian Federation
        2. midivan
          midivan 30 July 2016 13: 44
          +2
          Quote: aba
          When will Russia come at least to the level of Greece?

          thank you, it’s better as it is than the level of Greece, and the saying has become outdated a long time ago, approximately after they held the Olympics wink
        3. Grigory_78
          Grigory_78 4 August 2016 21: 21
          0
          Firstly, in the 90s and 2000s it was not before. In fact, nothing was built, unless developed.
          Secondly, Kudrin persuaded everyone to hide the money "in a box". And Ukraine also lived well from engine sales. No one had ever thought of such a turn of events. The localization of critical industries was started relatively recently, elementary did not have time before the events of 2014.
          Somehow you want everything at once. There is no such thing. And so at the limit of opportunity, everything is updated. The United States generally counts on disrupting the modernization of our armed forces in the face of sanctions.
    2. severyanin
      severyanin 30 July 2016 14: 07
      +9
      Quote: Exorcist Liberoids
      There are two options - leave Russia, and wait for the appearance of diesel engines for them, or buy a turbine or diesel

      Switching to diesel is death for the fleet of a country that positions itself as a great maritime power! It is of paramount importance not to degrade to "banana republics" and to keep the gas turbine ships in the fleet! If our leaders "overwhelm" the programs for the revival of gas turbine construction in Russia, we can safely give up on the ocean-going fleet! am
  4. avg-mgn
    avg-mgn 30 July 2016 13: 01
    -1
    There really are problems. Engines with military acceptance are needed, and there are few of these in the lineup. Need time.
    1. 33 Watcher
      33 Watcher 30 July 2016 13: 17
      +4
      Quote: avg-mgn
      Need time.

      How many?
      Can any of the responsible persons name the deadline? And to answer in case of failure?
      1. Verdun
        Verdun 30 July 2016 13: 30
        +1
        Quote: Observer 33
        Can any of the responsible persons name the deadline? And to answer in case of failure?

        Dates - as with that donkey of Khoja Nasreddin. and responsibility is dismissal with transfer to another front of work. It is possible that with an increase.
      2. Amurets
        Amurets 30 July 2016 14: 00
        +1
        Quote: Observer 33

        How many?
        Can any of the responsible persons name the deadline? And to answer in case of failure?

        Everyone will answer after the September 18 elections, but before this time it’s impossible, you suddenly blurt out of place and hurt your favorite party.
      3. Grigory_78
        Grigory_78 4 August 2016 21: 25
        0
        Do you think the question is at? Such a question may put Putin Rogozin for example. It is to deliver - to find such a person. Which will be taken and will answer if something happens. And here ... Not that level
    2. aba
      aba 30 July 2016 13: 23
      0
      Need time.
      How many?! 23 years have passed and plus 2 more.
      1. Grigory_78
        Grigory_78 4 August 2016 21: 27
        0
        Don't you think that such a question costs only 2 years? Not more. No one had noticed this problem before. The others were above the roof. They could not prevent a delay in the construction of ships for the Navy until 2014
  5. Phosgene
    Phosgene 30 July 2016 13: 11
    +5
    Frigates 11356 need to be built for their own fleet, especially since frigates 22350 are still not technically ready
  6. Abbra
    Abbra 30 July 2016 13: 13
    +2
    Stalin would have called to the carpet all those involved in the creation of domestic power plants, would have moved his mustache and silently lit a pipe. Three frigates would come off the slipways in time with powerful Russian power units. hi
    1. Grigory_78
      Grigory_78 4 August 2016 21: 30
      0
      Nowadays, other conditions. You can’t shoot for wrecking, you won’t write down as enemies of the people. Alas. On the other hand, thank God. I would not want the return of Stalinist times. In the domestic plan.
  7. kirgiz58
    kirgiz58 30 July 2016 13: 19
    +7
    Looks like a good snuffbox was in Vissarionych’s pipe - it made his way through everyone. lol
  8. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 30 July 2016 13: 39
    +6
    Stalin to Stalin, and what was the resource of aircraft engines at the height of the Spanish Civil War? 25 hours! There is such a book, "Stalin's Falcons", with documents (technical correspondence of this period) - terribly boring. So, move your mustache, don't move, light a pipe, don't light a cigarette, but technical regulations must be followed, and the technology must be debugged. Rybinsk seems to have undertaken to master the ship's gas turbine installations, well, this is not done so soon. And ships without engines. Dill may still supply engines for Indian ships, but certainly not for ours. That's the difficulty, and you can't change the project on the fly! And the money has been spent, the ships are not handed over to the customer, they take up space on the slipways ... It's a very unpleasant situation.
    1. Aaron Zawi
      Aaron Zawi 30 July 2016 13: 44
      +4
      Quote: Mountain Shooter
      Stalin to Stalin, and what was the resource of aircraft engines at the height of the Spanish Civil War? 25 hours! There is such a book, "Stalin's Falcons", with documents (technical correspondence of this period) - terribly boring. So, move your mustache, don't move, light a pipe, don't light a cigarette, but technical regulations must be followed, and the technology must be debugged. Rybinsk seems to have undertaken to master the ship's gas turbine installations, well, this is not done so soon. And ships without engines. Dill may still supply engines for Indian ships, but certainly not for ours. That's the difficulty, and you can't change the project on the fly! And the money has been spent, the ships are not handed over to the customer, they take up space on the slipways ... It's a very unpleasant situation.

      absolutely right. In general, there is no tragedy in this. Moreover, they quietly produced, sold and began to build for themselves under a promising engine. Whereas the idleness of the ships does not give anything to the fleet or to the construction of kopabstroenie.
    2. Abbra
      Abbra 30 July 2016 14: 03
      0
      I completely agree, if not joking. There is an awesome book that I read avidly. V.N. Nikonov. "On the Eve and in the Days of Trials". Remembers the former chairman of the USSR State Planning Committee. miracle, what a book! Just ABOUT THIS.
    3. Garris199
      Garris199 30 July 2016 23: 25
      0
      Quote: Mountain Shooter
      Dill can still deliver engines for Indian ships, but for ours - definitely not.

      Sell ​​ships to the Indians, then buy from the Indians or arrange a refund for non-standard. Give them something for the deal.
  9. APASUS
    APASUS 30 July 2016 14: 45
    +3
    A strange situation, someone strongly pulls the blanket over himself?
    This problem could be completely dealt with by urgently purchasing analogues in the same China, like for all the complexity of the relationship, but South Korea also refused to join the sanctions, their engines could buy! Yes, and I think it was possible to get the required engines, exchange them for the right work in Russia chocolate factories one oligarch
    1. Grigory_78
      Grigory_78 4 August 2016 21: 35
      0
      South Korea sells dual-use products only with the consent of the United States. There is such an agreement between countries. It does not particularly advertise, but acts. We first ran into it when we tried to buy accessories for Glonass-K satellites from South Korea. They should be in service for a long time, but so far only Glonass-M has been used. Not sold to us. The USA did not give consent ... But Glonass-K compared with Glonass-M is heaven and earth ... A completely different level.
  10. The comment was deleted.
    1. okroshka79
      okroshka79 30 July 2016 22: 38
      +1
      Who was responsible for the puncture with turbines and diesels? Apparently, nobody. In general, everything has been going towards this for a long time. More precisely, in my understanding, it was essno, when the ordering departments and research institutes of the Navy began to recruit, with the beginning of perestroika, not the best specialists from all fleets and they had to wait for an apartment for about 3 years, and Muscovites who had served in the Navy before. Because housing in Moscow and St. Petersburg had already become very expensive and the fleet did not buy it. I know of cases when such "dubars" came to the positions that determined the direction of development in the military and in the navy after serving in naval warehouses! I talked to them at Bolshoy Komsomolsk (now Zlatoust)! And then these were dispersed. The optimization was accomplished and the girls came with their feet from their teeth ... Now the fleet has become without any intelligible management and a clear ordering system. Sadly, all this. Indeed, one involuntarily thinks that Stalin with his pipe is oh so needed.
  11. mr.redpartizan
    mr.redpartizan 30 July 2016 16: 03
    +2
    It is unfortunate that the frigates 22350 decided to put diesels as marching engines, and not gas turbine engines. It is necessary to develop the technology of ship electric transmissions, similar to those installed on the British destroyers Type 45 or American Zamvolte. Or even abandon the division into marching and afterburning gas turbine engines by installing four gas turbines as on Arly Burke-type destroyers. It is a pity that we do not have turbines like the American GE LM2500.
    1. Wiruz
      Wiruz 30 July 2016 19: 46
      0
      The electric motor on the warship is essentially not needed, their efficiency is much lower. They are placed only when there is a great need for electric energy. On all kinds of yachts, cruise liners, etc. They were installed at Zamvolt only because of future railguns.
      1. APASUS
        APASUS 30 July 2016 21: 29
        +1
        Quote: Wiruz
        The electric motor on the warship is essentially not needed, their efficiency is much lower.

        It seems far from school lived ???
        Motor efficiency can reach 90%
        Efficiency of gasoline ICE 25%
        Efficiency diesel engine 40-53%
        1. dvina71
          dvina71 30 July 2016 22: 17
          +2
          Quote: APASUS
          Motor efficiency can reach 90%
          Efficiency of gasoline ICE 25%
          Efficiency diesel engine 40-53%

          Everything is so .. there is one BUT. Where does the electric motor get lipids? Probably from an external source, which has its own efficiency. Usually a diesel engine .. ..therefore, from its 50%, it is also necessary to take away losses in power transmission. Although, speaking generally, the diesel efficiency can reach 70%, but in a narrow range of rotational speeds. Such diesel engines are called sustainers, they work well in a narrow range and rotate the generator in this range. However, this is not an option for a warship.
          1. APASUS
            APASUS 31 July 2016 11: 43
            0
            Quote: dvina71
            Everything is so .. there is one BUT. Where does the electric motor get lipids? Probably from an external source, which has its own efficiency. Usually a diesel engine .. after all, from its 50%, losses in power transmission must also be taken away

            Losses in energy transfer through internal networks are minimal of the order of 0,2%, but take the losses on the gearbox, the load on the shafts, and the fact that the location of the motor-reducer-screw system is not unimportant. But the system with an electric motor allows you to get away from the classical scheme layout, cross out the gearbox, transmission shafts, reduce weight and naturally reduce losses!
            1. Grigory_78
              Grigory_78 4 August 2016 21: 47
              0
              Is logical. The efficiency of the gearbox can be taken approximately 0,9-0,95. That is - 5-10% of losses, which is definitely more than losses on internal networks under normal conditions. The question will be about the security of internal networks. It would be interesting to know the probability of an increase in losses during operation. Also, their dependence on temperature. In principle, the decision is reasonable. With BBM came to this. In ships, such decisions are also obvious.
  12. mr.redpartizan
    mr.redpartizan 30 July 2016 16: 18
    -2
    It is not clear what to do now with the three ships already built. What to do in case of malfunctioning of marching gas turbine engines as a result of the end of their resource? Namely, on these engines the ship goes most of the time. There is no answer to this question yet. It would be worth considering the transfer of the first three ships to the Indians, especially since they are more powerful than the export type Talwar. We need to focus on the production of more advanced frigates of project 22350 / 22350M and accelerate the development of destroyers like Leader with nuclear power plants for us and gas turbine engines for export.
  13. Old26
    Old26 30 July 2016 16: 19
    +6
    Quote: Abbra
    Stalin would have called to the carpet all those involved in the creation of domestic power plants, would have moved his mustache and silently lit a pipe. Three frigates would come off the slipways in time with powerful Russian power units. hi

    Blessed is he who believes. You can put one or two Stalin, three-five of Beria, to shoot several dozen of those who are at the head of the shipbuilding industry, but that would not change anything. The belief that Stalin would have been at the helm is only faith and nostalgia. If not PRODUCTION - be even a dozen Stalin-nothing will change.
    They may object to me that it was necessary to think, to establish production at home, etc. Yes, it was necessary to establish, but do not forget one. It was necessary to resolve the issue not only in this one industry, but in all. For the collapse of the Union is not only the division of the state into several states, it is also the collapse of cooperation, horizontal and vertical ties. And there it was all the same: wherever you throw - everywhere a wedge. Therefore, they began first of all with the area that was most important - with nuclear missile forces. What next. Do not forget that we and crises did not pass. In some areas, in some

    Although comrade rudolff is right, he had to move more actively
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 30 July 2016 16: 24
      +2
      Quote: Old26
      The belief that Stalin would have been at the helm is only faith and nostalgia. If there is no PRODUCTION - be even a dozen Stalin - nothing will change

      I strongly apologize. Where was the USSR industry at the time of Stalin's rise to power and where was the USSR industry at the time of Stalin's death? You somehow strangely divided industry and Vissarionycha, although they were very much interconnected
      1. mr.redpartizan
        mr.redpartizan 30 July 2016 16: 35
        +1
        That's it. Stalin came to power in the mid-20s and by the beginning of the Second World War the USSR already had a fairly powerful industry and science, without which we could not have won. And this is in the face of severe sanctions, famine, devastation after the civil war, mass illiteracy among adults. Yes, all the power of the state machine was used to force those who disagree, it was not without the use of forced labor, purges among managers, but the task was completed.
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. Normal ok
          Normal ok 30 July 2016 20: 39
          -3
          Quote: mr.redpartizan
          That's it. Stalin came to power in the mid-20's and by the beginning of the Second World War the USSR already had a fairly powerful industry and science, without which we could not have won. And this is in the conditions of the most severe sanctions, hunger, devastation after the civil war, mass illiteracy among adults.

          What are these sanctions? America sold us everything we needed: tractors, steam locomotives, machine tools. Even built factories and power plants on a turn-key basis.
      2. Cat man null
        Cat man null 30 July 2016 16: 37
        +3
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Where was the USSR industry at the time Stalin came to power and where was the USSR industry at the time of Stalin's death?

        I will supplement the question:

        - by whom and due to what factories under Stalin were produced-built-launched?

        Here are a couple of examples, if you want, you can find a lot more:

        In May 1929, The New York Times reported that the architect Albert Kahn, the Soviet foreign trade organization Amtorg, proposed a $ 40 million contract for the design of several tractor plants. The United States at that time was on the verge of a powerful financial crisis - the Great Depression. Therefore, the offer from distant Russia for Kahn became more than tempting ... The first Kahn plant in the USSR - the Stalingrad Tractor - was designed and built in America. Then it was disassembled and, together with the equipment on 100 ships, delivered to the customer. The enterprise was an exact copy of the Caterpillar tractor plant, just like the Gorky Automobile Plant, also designed by Kahn, was a copy of the Ford auto company

        And now we are thinking - will the American "partners" agree now in the current environment on similar feats? IMHO is unlikely request
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 31 July 2016 11: 26
          +1
          Detroit firm Albert Kahn (Kogana) designed and built on a turnkey basis
          more than 500 factories in the USSR, including all key factories of the military-industrial complex,
          ... factories of the aviation industry, automobile industry, engines.
        2. The comment was deleted.
  14. xant
    xant 30 July 2016 17: 24
    -1


    do not worry so everything will be! laughing
  15. Rambylbafen
    Rambylbafen 30 July 2016 18: 44
    -3
    put yaeu and not bother hi ,
    1. mr.redpartizan
      mr.redpartizan 30 July 2016 19: 36
      +1
      Firstly, a major restructuring of the project will be required for conversion to a nuclear power plant, and secondly, the displacement of the ship is too small, which makes it difficult or even impossible to make an atomic conversion.
      1. ZAV69
        ZAV69 30 July 2016 21: 40
        0
        Most likely difficulties in operation and other risks, frigates are now the main plowmen of war. Almost everyone will die. To write down losses in small local wars, ships with a nuclear installation seem to have decided that it is very cool. As for the dimensions, power plants based on tractors were also developed in the 60s, was there a huge reactor?
        Really make a small ship. Just risks, time, costs, it’s easier to screw a gas turbine
        1. mr.redpartizan
          mr.redpartizan 31 July 2016 09: 13
          +1
          The tractors had a mobile power station with a capacity of only a few megawatts. For the movement of a frigate-type ship, a shaft power of tens of thousands of horsepower is required, and this is TENS of megawatts. For example, Borey-type submarines are equipped with an OK-650V reactor with a thermal power of 190 MW, which makes it possible to output 50000 hp on the shaft. A nuclear power plant of such power weighs hundreds of tons, because for the operation of the reactor, circulation pumps, steam generators, GTZA, many different automation systems and reliable biological protection from radiation are required.
      2. Rambylbafen
        Rambylbafen 30 July 2016 22: 02
        0
        please remember the displacement of pr. 705, yes it’s flat, but they pushed it in and it turned out well hi , and modern water-water in size is not much and larger (this is together with the GTZ) tongue you just need to set the task, profile designers, layout in place in a given volume.
        1. mr.redpartizan
          mr.redpartizan 31 July 2016 09: 26
          0
          Submarines of project 705 were originally designed for a reactor with a liquid metal coolant, which is several times smaller than water-water. The reactor requires a mass of other equipment, under which it is necessary to find a place on the ship. A nuclear power plant is advantageous on ships of large displacement, for example, on aircraft carriers and heavy missile cruisers. A gas turbine power plant is several times smaller than a nuclear power plant with the same mechanical power, because in it the energy of combustion of fuel is directly converted into mechanical energy without loss of conversion of heat into energy of expansion of steam.
          1. Rambylbafen
            Rambylbafen 31 July 2016 23: 18
            0
            I just gave you an example of the use of nuclear power plants in about the same displacement, you can still see the evolution of the 671 project (in the sense of their nuclear power from GTZ) and this was all in the last century in 60-70 years hi so there’s no need to radically change the project itself, but you need to modify existing projects for the project and, among other things, the displacement can even be reduced with the removal of fuel tanks laughing
          2. Rambylbafen
            Rambylbafen 31 July 2016 23: 18
            0
            I just gave you an example of the use of nuclear power plants in about the same displacement, you can still see the evolution of the 671 project (in the sense of their nuclear power from GTZ) and this was all in the last century in 60-70 years hi so there’s no need to radically change the project itself, but you need to modify existing projects for the project and, among other things, the displacement can even be reduced with the removal of fuel tanks laughing
          3. Rambylbafen
            Rambylbafen 1 August 2016 00: 40
            0
            The nuclear power plant (together with the gas turbine engine) occupies less volume than gas-turbine or steam-power plants !!! hi And if you still take into account: autonomy, released volume (fuel), efficiency (time increase or decrease in power) and the range is unlimited (only by the food supply and the psyche of the crew) hi
  16. Normal ok
    Normal ok 30 July 2016 20: 40
    -1
    Stalin came to power in the middle of the 20's and by the beginning of the Second World War the USSR already had a fairly powerful industry and science, without which we could not have won. And this is in the conditions of the most severe sanctions, famine, devastation after the civil war, mass illiteracy among adults.

    What are these sanctions during the reign of Stalin?
    America sold us everything we needed: tractors, steam locomotives, machine tools. Even built factories and power plants on a turn-key basis. For example, have you heard anything about Armand Hammer?
  17. Vadim237
    Vadim237 30 July 2016 23: 38
    0
    Most likely pushed to India or Egypt.
  18. Tusv
    Tusv 31 July 2016 07: 10
    0
    Quote: for Max
    . And the Hindu topic has cleared up, and already expresses the desire to buy the best atomic submarines, well, the cheap technology in the load.

    I want to fly to the moon and what. Who will serve them? For rent, yes, we rent to Indians, but the responsibility lies with us. Do they have nuclear reactor maintenance specialists? No, but no and there are no nuclear ships and is not expected
  19. sivuch
    sivuch 31 July 2016 11: 31
    0
    If we are talking only about these three frigates, then such a solution is possible -
    Snake >> now China itself produces an analogue of the Zorevsky UGT-25000
    Vovanych_1977> ... and then there is a rhetorical question - purkua would not be pa :)? This is not a patent infringement, is it?
    If China stamps them as famously as destroyers, then why not make them an offer they cannot refuse?
    http://forums.airbase.ru/2014/04/t61407,20--glavnye-energeticheskie-ustanovki-ko
    rablej-i-sudov.html
    And, by the way, a little lower Denis competently (as far as I can tell) discusses the advantages of electric movement.
  20. wanderer_032
    wanderer_032 31 July 2016 15: 22
    +1
    The fate of the second three patrol ships of the 11356 project, intended for the Black Sea Fleet, has not yet been decided, although Rosoboronexport is aware of negotiations on the supply of these ships to third countries, RIA Novosti reports.

    No money left! But you hold on there! And good mood in honor of the day of the Navy!

    So what is this "news" to interpret?

    And a song in the subject:

  21. Santor
    Santor 31 July 2016 15: 37
    0
    Quote: 30 vis
    Buy engines through third or fifth parties and deliver. After the revolution, tanks were bought and brought under the guise of tractors. As well as other equipment. Airplanes, engines Steam locomotives. Forgotten how to conduct secret operations. But they learned to hide money offshore. Thief!

    Sci-fi read well respected? There, in those 30 years, everyone knew everything and looked through their fingers, since they themselves sold not only the latest weapons to Stalin, but also turnkey entire plants.

    If you think that there are fuckers in the intelligence of other countries, then your site is "Russian Spring" .... Everything is closely monitored, and no one will go for it. As an example - attempts by Ukraine and its owners to buy ammunition as well as military equipment, including tanks in third or fourth countries. Ve was detained on the "CHOP-UNGENY" line
  22. Santor
    Santor 31 July 2016 15: 52
    0
    Quote: okroshka79
    Who was responsible for the puncture with turbines and diesels? Apparently, no one. In general, everything has already been going towards this for quite some time. More precisely, in my understanding, it was essential when, at the beginning of perestroika, the ordering departments and research institutes of the Navy began to recruit not the best specialists from all fleets and they had to wait for the apartment for about 3 of the year, but Muscovites who had served in the Navy before. Because housing in Moscow and St. Petersburg has already become very expensive and the fleet did not buy it.

    Does it mean that ..... they didn’t have a phone in the kitchen on time? Or do you think that tyap-blooper and the plant is built? Bloopers and engines designed ... Aw ....

    The construction of the factories began in 2011, it was simply not advertised, like much that was done in Russia, and which turned out to be an unpleasant surprise for the "partners".

    And a surprise for the Russian population, which is still sacredly waiting for when they condemn Serdyukov and put Vasilyev .... well, well ...

    There is no puncture .... It just takes a year or two to develop an engine ...

    The frigates "Yantar" in fact do not meet the latest modern requirements, but there was no way out, since the series had already been worked out on the Indian order.

    Work on them continues, every day I drive by .... If the issue of transferring to India is resolved, the American company General Dynamics is ready to supply the propulsion systems, already spinning around the Indians wagging its tail ...

    While the issue of transfer is not resolved .... Rybinsk began production of engines under the Chinese license, but so far only for small ships. Its developed, but brought and tested ... Time, time and time again ....

    You do not need to consider Putin and his entourage as suckers .... But in fact, what you wrote is what turns out ...

    We have a minimum of information, often distorted or deliberately misinformation .... And on this basis, as well as on the lyrics of various bloggers, we judge what is happening ....

    Cool gentlemen, everything is under control, but not so simple. For over the years of the rule of the females of the liberals, almost everything was ruined, not just the army.

    And now it’s not necessary to restore anything, but to do everything from scratch ... Since building a new one is cheaper than upgrading the old one.

    Cool down.
  23. tanzor69
    tanzor69 1 August 2016 18: 36
    0
    and we’ll sell it, and we’ll sell it ... hmm ...