Military Review

"Break the pattern about the Holodomor"

309
"Break the pattern about the Holodomor"The Ukrainian woman had a break in the pattern when she read my lines that “Ukrainian nationalists organized the Holodomor on Ukraine 1932 / 33 of the Year”.


The naive Albanians believe that the Ukrainian nationalist government, which in recent years 25 has brainwashed Ukrainian children with a lie about the Holodomor, could tell the truth about the role of Ukrainian nationalists in organizing hunger. If today we see crowds of “maydauns” furious in Ukraine, then we must clearly understand that the modern Ukrainian historians who prostituted on the Holodomor played a leading role in the ideological rallying of these crowds. In Soviet times, Ukrainian historians were well aware of the causes of the famine, but after the formation of the Ukrainian state, they suddenly shut up and began to substantiate the formerly once fascist and marginal lie about Stalin, the hater of Ukrainians. Tom Stalin himself, who then literally saved the Ukrainian peasants from starvation and to whom only for this must be monuments in every Ukrainian village.

Being a specialist in stories hunger 1932 / 33 year, I will briefly summarize the essence of what happened then.

Stalin's agrarian reform was supposed to deprive the traditional sources of profits of the kulaks. Therefore, the kulaks rebelled against voluntary collective farms at first, using all the levers of influence available to them. The authorities responded with dekulakization and complete collectivization. Essentially in 1929-1933. the country was a civil war around the collective farms. The poor were to the death of the collective farms, fists just as desperately fought against. The middle peasures split depending on local conditions. There was a regularity: the greater the profits from the grain trade the peasants had in the region, the more massive and tougher they fought there against the collective farms. Remaining on the ground after dispossession (dispossessed only part of the fists), the fists were forced to join the collective farms. But then they began to organize for sabotage on collective farms. The purpose at first was simple: to prove to the authorities that the collective farms are not viable, then, they say, the government will return, as it was. Destruction of working livestock, weed infestation of fields, delay in sowing time, poor-quality cleaning. Harvest rotting in the fields, burned in the fields and barns. It is clear that yields have plummeted. In order not to suffer themselves, in order to deprive honest collective farmers of at least some crop, bread was plundered and festered in the pits.

In 1931, a drought struck. The authorities somehow managed to cope with its consequences, using their old reserves. And then the opponents of the government had a chance - another such poor harvest and the outbreak of hunger would repel the starving poor people from the support of collective farms, a general peasant uprising would either overthrow Soviet power, or at least sweep the collective farms. The fists themselves were never afraid of hunger - the kulaks in the famine of the poor always made gesheft. Only in the spring of 1933 of the year were they expecting political gesheft.

Under these conditions, all anti-Soviet forces joined the organization of hunger and preparation for the uprising. The position of Ukraine turned out to be extremely vulnerable precisely because there the neighboring states and the Ukrainian nationalists agreed on the seizure of Ukraine from the USSR in the wake of a hungry uprising. There even the local bureaucracy, who almost all sympathized and subordinated to the nationalists, began to play up to hunger. The fact that they could not destroy in the fields and steal, was vigorously removed from the peasant barns and - attention! - Burned in front of the peasants with the words "To the Muscovites did not get!". The leader of the Western world, England, severed economic relations with the USSR, pushing him into the abyss of famine. Discussing the issue of purchasing grain at the Politburo meeting, Stalin admitted that, according to his information, this would be denied to the Soviet Union.

The Stalinist team then saved Ukraine by a miracle. On the Ukrainian fields, left without working cattle, columns of new tractors moved, while the Volga region was forced to plow on cows. Totally changed the local bureaucracy. Hit on gangs and underground groups of nationalists. The frenzy of hundreds of thousands of refugees stopped, and they moved to look for well-fed areas where the whole country was starving. Urgently stopped the movement of wheat on export contracts, returning grain directly from the ports. The grain, squeezed out of the starving Russian regions by thousands of railcars, was sent to Ukraine to at least feed honest working collective farmers and carry out the decisive sowing of spring 1933 of the year. The Communists were obliged to hand over for seed a portion of the grain obtained by workdays. They thrashed the straw to get at least some crumbs. Opened the pits, promising to forgive those who will bring the stolen.

Ukraine was saved.

All this is not known to the modern Ukrainian citizen, stunned by a quarter of a century of nationalist propaganda, and therefore supported the "maydaunov."
Author:
Originator:
http://historian30h.livejournal.com/163671.html
309 comments
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  1. sever.56
    sever.56 23 July 2016 12: 58
    +149
    They are terpily in life, they are "terpily".
    Whining, whining, crying and saying that they are the most unhappy, offended, that they are all oppressed, while wailing the usual - "Give me a penny. Help than you can ..." mentality of "guides" and "Svidomo" poskakunchikov.
    Then the Black Earth region, and the Volga region, and Kalmykia, and Kazakhstan were starving, but NONE of them are whining and whining now. But there, too, hundreds of thousands of people died.
    They have (dill), no pride, no honor, no self-esteem. The inferiority complex alone and the fix idea that everyone owes them and everyone around is to blame, has become a national idea ...
    1. cniza
      cniza 23 July 2016 13: 08
      +24
      Quote: sever.56
      They are terpily in life, they are "terpily".
      Whining, whining, crying and saying that they are the most unhappy, offended, that they are all oppressed, while wailing the usual - "Give me a penny. Help than you can ..." mentality of "guides" and "Svidomo" poskakunchikov.
      Then the Black Earth region, and the Volga region, and Kalmykia, and Kazakhstan were starving, but NONE of them are whining and whining now. But there, too, hundreds of thousands of people died.
      They have (dill), no pride, no honor, no self-esteem. The inferiority complex alone and the fix idea that everyone owes them ...


      Now it is useless for them to prove something, while the raguli in power, when they are dropped, then everyone will understand.
      1. Andrey K
        Andrey K 23 July 2016 13: 32
        +26
        Quote: cniza
        Now it is useless for them to prove something, while the raguli in power, when they are dropped, then everyone will understand.

        I agree with you. But one gets the feeling that the raguli deliberately bring deja vu ...
        They go out of their way along the path of deindustrialization, intentionally or thoughtlessly, bringing people to impoverishment.
        In fact, they lead used Ukraine to starvation (it’s another matter that the times are not the same and we will take off for bread) ...
        A man brought to the edge, our explanations will not be particularly interesting. He will want to eat ...
        1. skeptic
          skeptic 23 July 2016 13: 52
          +12
          Quote: Andrey K
          They go out of their way along the path of deindustrialization, intentionally or thoughtlessly, bringing people to impoverishment.


          Not so much they climb, how naglosaktsy push them. The West creates the conditions under which the only way of income ukrodolbikov - will be war. Like in Afghanistan. And for loosening the war against Russia, any idiots are suitable.
          1. Tatyana
            Tatyana 23 July 2016 16: 52
            +16
            Thanks to the author for a useful and politically relevant article! I have also never heard of such details about the famine in / in Ukraine - I found out for the first time. This is very important historical information!

            To the author for the article +
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 23 July 2016 17: 03
              -37%
              Quote: Tatiana
              Thanks to the author for a useful and politically relevant article!

              You would think that despite its "usefulness" and "relevance", the article is absolutely illiterate from a historical point of view. But it is useful and relevant.
              Pancake. Where is the site heading? I thought that such perversions of reality only the "censor" could do.
              1. Aleksander
                Aleksander 24 July 2016 06: 06
                -21%
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                You would think that with its "usefulness" and "relevance" the article is absolutely illiterate from a historical point of view view

                Absolutely agree! hi
                1. shasherin_pavel
                  shasherin_pavel 24 July 2016 11: 53
                  +11
                  Quote: Aleksander
                  illiterate from a historical point of view

                  And what story do you apply to your eyesight. Remember the monkey had glasses, so she just didn’t put them in her ass, but it didn’t help her eyesight! Which story is closer to you? Khrushchev? Gorbachev? or maybe you’ll try to read the memoirs of people who lived at that time ?! And in general, read the very history of the Russian Empire. But even the memoirs of white generals can tell a lot. It is necessary to study historical documents, and not read shit from the West. It is better to use your vision than to feel the elephant, like a blind sage.
                  1. Aleksander
                    Aleksander 24 July 2016 20: 41
                    -18%
                    Quote: shasherin_pavel
                    Remember the monkey had glasses, so she just didn’t put them in her ass, but it didn’t help her eyesight! It’s better to use her eyesight than to feel the elephant like a blind wise man.

                    Why are these monkey teachings? belay
                    What kind of snobbery?
                    Why this flood?
                    Drop the bad habit of giving advice: she-she doesn’t need anyone yes
                2. desyatka
                  desyatka 25 July 2016 14: 29
                  +2
                  in our time it is desirable to give links to documents, otherwise the assimilation to "maydauns" occurs.
                3. Arikkhab
                  Arikkhab 25 July 2016 15: 56
                  0
                  for non-historians - can you justify your point of view?
            2. Simple
              Simple 23 July 2016 17: 32
              -38%
              To the author - (bold)
              Complete nonsense, the same as a looser, but! But from "our"
              Tatyana to you, as a writer - work with the texture.
              The author and about Stalin lied and in general.
              In fact, the author should be doused for such a shameful nonsense (you yourself know what)
              Well, you can't be like "non-brothers"!
              However, ANDREY from Chelyabinsk made a fairly cultural diagnosis.
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 23 July 2016 17: 54
                -15%
                Quote: Just
                Well, you can't be like "non-brothers"!

                Here! hi CSIP drinks
                1. Simple
                  Simple 23 July 2016 18: 31
                  -16%
                  Well here we are with you and rake now in full crying
                  What is the strength in, brother? IN TRUTH!

                  And the rest is zombie, what is ragulzomubing, what is "our" zombie.
                  The bottom line is one
                  1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 23 July 2016 20: 02
                    -18%
                    Quote: Just
                    Well, here we are, and we will now rake in full

                    Ah !, Do not pay attention. I ALWAYS wrote what I think is necessary and now ... the marshal I don’t remember what year :)))
                    1. shasherin_pavel
                      shasherin_pavel 24 July 2016 11: 59
                      +5
                      Tukhachevsky also rose to the rank of marshal ... at one time, when everyone dreamed of a world revolution "and as one we will die in the struggle for it." But the realization came that really not a single living Russian might remain in the struggle for the world revolution. They changed the constitution in 1936 - dropping out of it the idea of ​​world domination of the revolution. And the adherents of this idea went to waste of the struggle for power. Every marshal should appreciate history, so as not to get stuck in it, but to enter.
                  2. Corsair
                    Corsair 23 July 2016 22: 34
                    +20
                    Quote: Just
                    Well, here we are, and we will now rake in full

                    So you would tell that and how, otherwise the "half-witted author" they say, turned the story upside down. Stalin was not in business at all, and the poor Russian people in Ukraine died of hunger, and in the Volga region and the lower Urals it turns out they lived happily ever after.
                    Where do you get the information - share - just not from an alternative history, please, if possible, written with the help of American criminals and journalist whores during perestroika. And after all, during perestroika there were so many different opuses and "eye openers" that became sick.
                    Share information - how and what happened, make your own "answer to Chamberlain".

                    ps I do not support the author of the above opus, but I do not exclude a variant of such events, a completely viable version.
                    1. Simple
                      Simple 23 July 2016 22: 51
                      +5
                      Quote: Corsair
                      Where do you get information from - share it - only not from an alternative history please

                      I didn’t write an article, and I’m unlikely to be, God didn’t equalize the trees in the forest, and people ...
                      I "SCOOK" FROM HERE:
                      1.Stalin I.V. Compositions. - T. 17., PAGE [c.347]
                      2. The share of export and its role in the specific consumption of grain in Russia. According to the 80 years of the 19th century, the picture is as follows: average gross yields fluctuate averaged from 45 to 55 (1887 year) million tons. But the data on the export of grain abroad (it is not known whether corn is included there):

                      1881 year - 3,32 million tons
                      1882 year - 4,82
                      1883 year - 5,49
                      1884 year - 5,12
                      1885 year - 5,5
                      1886 year - 4,45
                      1887 year - 6,28
                      1888 year - 8,76
                      1889 year - 7,46
                      1890 year - 6,68
                      1891 year - 6,26
                      1892 year - 3,14

                      Pokrovsky D I. Collection of information on the history and statistics of foreign trade of Russia. T. 1. SPb., 1902.
                      3. Foreign trade of the USSR for 20 years. 1918-1937 Statistical Digest.- M.: International Book, 1939, p. 13.

                      4. ↑ Documents of the Russian archives about the famine 1932 — 1933. in the USSR // "Domestic Archives" No. 2 (2009)
                      ↑ Documents of the Russian archives about the famine of 1932 — 1933. in the USSR // "Domestic Archives" No. 2 (2009)
                      ↑ USSR Foreign Trade for 1918 — 1940 (Statistical Review). Part I // Vneshtorgizdat, Moscow. 1960;
                      ======================
                      And it’s not the IVS.
                      There was still a Politburo (before 1937 Mr. ISHO is FAR):
                      4 September 1931 years, he (Stalin) sharply indicates the Politburo in the person Kaganovich about the senselessness of pressing on bread, because "it costs a penny." However, the growing external debt and the acute shortage of foreign exchange made it necessary to continue exporting at least in some form. Even before Stalin’s letter, on July 15 of 1931, a decision was made to export 4.5 million tons for the entire 1931. On August 31, it was decided to export 1.3 million tons in September.
                      ===============================================
                      If you want to be a kaklomutant, but with a "+" sign (our that is) - BE.
                      But the cretinism of the author of this libel is not worth laughing at.
                      Enough to disgrace the Russians and the country.
                      1. Corsair
                        Corsair 24 July 2016 00: 50
                        +2
                        Quote: Just
                        If you want to be a kaklomutant, but with a "+" sign (our that is) - BE.

                        I want to be myself - are you happy with this answer?
                        Now the question is: Stalin issued a decree on the export of grain only from those areas where now there is a certain state called Ukraine?
                        Only from the territories of the then existing Ukraine, grain was taken abroad and there is documentary evidence of this?
                        I agree with only one, the districts and regions most dependent on agricultural production have suffered, but by no means only individual nations - as some formations and the government of Ukraine now put it.
                        We also know how to read the laid out info on the Internet, for example, an excerpt from Wikipedia:
                        Famine in the USSR 1932-1933 (officially called the “Holodomor” in Ukraine [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]) - mass famine in the USSR on the territory of the Ukrainian SSR, BSSR [4] [6] [5] , The North Caucasus, the Volga region, the Southern Urals, Western Siberia, Northern Kazakhstan, which caused significant casualties (according to various estimates, from two to eight million people).
                      2. Simple
                        Simple 24 July 2016 01: 03
                        -5
                        Quote: Corsair
                        I want to be myself - are you happy with this answer?

                        I am for it"!
                        How does bss compare with this stupid conjunctural ("Crimea nash, kakaly") -will earn an authority, bablosik on this topic with an article?
                        there is something to show / prove - "a prize in the studio"
                        Quote: Corsair
                        Stalin issued a decree on export

                        You probably did not read what I wrote. and not the IVS, but the Politburo (those bastards) - until 1937 there were 4 more "years"
                        Quote: Corsair
                        Only from territories then existing

                        And who mumbled about this? How are the mutants? well, they don’t even moo.
                        The author writes about WHAT?
                        If you are not stuck, re-read the article.
                        This is the same bustle as "IN THE SLAVIC Fascists crucified the child and executed the wife of the lieutenant 12 07 2014"

                        Where is this "Carpathian lady"?

                        whether "Arseniy Yatsenyuk fought against Russians in Chechnya, tortured and shot Russian soldiers. 09.09.2015"

                        Senya? belay Yes, he crap one's pants at the thought of Chechnya.
                        Why is that a disgrace?
                        We didn’t get Dr. Goebels’s diaries in our hands?
                        Quote: Corsair
                        Famine in the USSR 1932 — 1933

                        I don’t need to tell me on the wiki, my ancestors felt it on themselves
                      3. Corsair
                        Corsair 24 July 2016 01: 13
                        +6
                        Quote: Just
                        I don’t need to tell me on the wiki, my ancestors felt it on themselves

                        There was not a word about Crimea at all, dear, I immediately wrote that I do not support the author's idea because it looks like a megapatriotic frenzy and is written in the style of "Bourgeois are bastards", the conversation is not about the current troubles of Ukraine and those living on its territory.
                        I’m specifically talking about a certain famine in Ukraine, because you can write that the USSR and the Great Patriotic War waged war exclusively on the territory of Ukraine and only Ukrainians died in the main.
                        I am against various distortions of history and provocative throws on the topic: we were dying here, and you were fattening there.
                      4. Simple
                        Simple 24 July 2016 12: 10
                        +1
                        So I am very opposed!
                        Why become like mugs?
                        And the author is trying.
                        I'm not talking about the Holodomor, but about the "article"
                2. shasherin_pavel
                  shasherin_pavel 24 July 2016 12: 15
                  +1
                  Quote: Just
                  However, the growing external debt and the acute shortage of foreign currency funds forced to continue exporting in at least some form.

                  Forgot to mention one historical fact: the West boycott Soviet goods, except grain. That is, they bought only grain from the USSR, everything else bought in the USSR was smuggled. Before Hitler came to power, we had the opportunity to trade all types of goods only with Germany, which was also sanctioned. "Bread is worth a penny," but only grain could be traded with the West.
                3. Simple
                  Simple 24 July 2016 12: 49
                  +3
                  Quote: shasherin_pavel
                  oh, they only bought grain from the USSR, everything else bought in the USSR was contraband

                  what nonsense. You do not own material at all

                  Agricultural share and industrial products in export THE USSR (%).

                  Is this all "contraband"?
                  ↑ USSR Foreign Trade for 1918 — 1940 (Statistical Review). Part I // Vneshtorgizdat, Moscow. 1960;




                  Since 1933, both in terms of physical volume and cost, Germany ranks first among buyers of Soviet oil (Great Britain was leading before) where 10,3% of the physical volume and 13,9% of the cost volume of oil and oil products were exported, in 1934, respectively, 10,6% and 14,3%, in 1935, respectively, 14,6% and 19,7%, in 1936, respectively, 13,1% and 15,4 %
                4. vvv-73
                  vvv-73 25 July 2016 19: 51
                  0
                  Probably the "gold embargo" is meant.
          2. shasherin_pavel
            shasherin_pavel 24 July 2016 12: 08
            +4
            From historical documents.
            Immediately after the October Revolution, the Highest Executive Authority, the Regional Committee for the Protection of the Revolution in Ukraine, was created in Kiev. The Central Council does not recognize the power of the Soviets and declares Donbass and Kharkov a part of Ukraine, which residents of these provinces, which establish the Donetsk-Kryvyi Rih Soviet Republic (DKSR) as part of the Russian Federation, do not agree. The new republic even includes Kharkov and partially Kherson provinces. The Central Council, completely in the spirit of the Hetman, signs an agreement with Germany and Avto-Hungary, allowing them to send their troops to Ukraine. Since Ukraine considered Donetsk to be its part, German troops entered Donetsk as well. German troops capture Kharkov and the DKSR government moves to Lugansk, German troops come there too. The leadership of the republic goes over the Don River to Tsaritsyn. After the liberation of the Donets Basin, the Central Committee of the RCP (B) recognizes the Donets Basin as the territory of Ukraine from revolutionary priorities, which made it possible to hold the All-Ukrainian Congress of Soviets in liberated Kharkov in March 1919 and establish the Ukrainian Soviet Republic. All this was done in contrast to the Central Council in Kiev. Some historians are trying to explain the history of the Ukrainian government in Kharkov with the criminal situation in Kiev, not wanting to talk about the "invited" German troops. Since 1928, secret Ukrainization of the population has been unfolding in the Rostov Priazovye, in the Voronezh and Kursk regions, and especially in the Kuban. Ukrainian officials are transferring their activities to the territory of the Russian Federation: they are opening Ukrainian schools, distributing Ukrainian magazines, and arranging for the publication of newspapers. Residents of these areas nicknamed what is happening "Ukrainians." Apparently, Ukraine felt a desire to tear the Russian Federation from the shores of the Black Sea. Bulgakov in the play "Days of the Turbins" does not stand aside and uses phrases about "damn comedy with Ukrainization", and that in Ukraine "not a single person speaks the language of the country." In 1929, a group of Ukrainian writers complained about I. Bulgakov. To Stalin ... Bulgakov’s plays are removed from the repertoire. The actions of Ukrainization provoked a series of uprisings, undermining the authority of the government precisely in those areas that were secretly Ukrainized by the employees of the People's Commissariat of Public Education of Ukraine, Chekists and activists of the "national revival". OGPU employees report this to Moscow. But the active actions of the opposition to Ukrainization were stopped in 1932. The processes of Ukrainization are suppressed by the power of the OGPU. Broadcasting is translated into Russian, as is typography. Magazines and newspapers are switching to Russian. In January 1935, party purges and arrests began in party and Soviet bodies.
            In the time of Khrushchev, all of them will turn into “the innocent victims of the Stalinist repressions”, as if in those days there was silence and grace and no one wanted to ruin the Russian Federation or tear off its territory. Apparently, any actions against the sovereignty of Russia are in the stage of democratization, but the Russian Federation is forbidden to protect its interests and sovereignty.
            Ukrainians - ... Currently, U. is mostly united in the Ukrainian SSR and settled throughout the USSR, meaning. some of them remain politically oppressed in Poland. W. in the USSR are by the number of the second (after the Russians) nationality: there are 31 194, 8 thousand or 21% of the total USSR population.
        2. atakan
          atakan 24 July 2016 02: 40
          +13
          \ generally about famines \
          The article correctly raised the question of the Holodomor, BUT there is no longer anything, no facts, no links to documents, no statistics, article +, but it’s empty.
          HUNGER IN USA
          for 1932! In the thirties, 7 million 394 thousand people "disappeared without a trace". And the very peak of such a traceless disappearance of US citizens falls on 32-33 years. When, according to the AFL (American Federation of Labor), in 1932 only 10% of workers remained FULLY EMPLOYED, and the number of unemployed reached 12,5 million people, and a year later in 33 unemployed in America there were already 17 million. And this is against the backdrop of more than five million refugee farmers, driven by banks from the land for debts, without any means of subsistence, thrown by the US State Department to starvation. The US government when asked where did they go? Powerlessly throws up his hands and is also surprised, "here it was like yesterday, but today they have gone somewhere." The answer is simple, they died of HUNGER and DISEASES caused by POVERTY !!! This despite the fact that food in the US was full !!! But they preferred to dump it into the river, ocean, bury it, burn it or rot. If only the price of food should not be lowered, since money for capital is much more expensive than human lives!
          1. Victor Demchenko
            Victor Demchenko 25 July 2016 13: 59
            0
            very clearly these facts were described by Jack London in his novel "Valley of the Moon" (I do not remember exactly, sorry, I read it for a long time). this is a novel about an amateur boxer who worked as a carter and his life. you really understand a true novel.
          2. Simpsonian
            Simpsonian 25 July 2016 14: 04
            0
            Money in the United States is printed by the Fed, it was just necessary to kill these not quite racially faithful people from families who were not completely destroyed into civilian life and thinned in WWI ...
  2. revnagan
    revnagan 23 July 2016 18: 42
    +7
    Quote: Tatiana
    Thanks to the author for a useful and politically relevant article! I have also never heard of such details about the famine in / in Ukraine - I found out for the first time.

    This material will be "details" when the author provides links to documents, eyewitness testimonies from official sources. Documents on the table, please. Otherwise, it turns out "anti-censor".
    1. terehvlad
      terehvlad 24 July 2016 18: 47
      +9
      links to documents, eyewitness accounts
      - on
  3. 13 warrior
    13 warrior 23 July 2016 18: 44
    -1
    Author minus!
    The article is pseudo-historical!
    There are frauds and fantasies.
    In addition, there are no links to sources.
    1. terehvlad
      terehvlad 24 July 2016 18: 49
      -1
      here without juggling
  4. Orionvit
    Orionvit 23 July 2016 19: 01
    +1
    I have also never heard of such details about the famine in / in Ukraine - I found out for the first time. This is very important historical information!
    Tatyana, on this issue, I highly recommend listening to Dmitry Puchkov’s intelligence question about the Holodomor.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qhv9pdubxRk
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq0tHSK_YzQ
    So simple information for consideration.
    1. terehvlad
      terehvlad 28 July 2016 19: 21
      0
      about neighboring Poland in the 27th minute - just nice! Stalin's shaggy hand also staged a famine in capitalist Poland at that time, and in the States 5 million disappeared ... It's time to write down the countries that believe that we owe them for the Holodomors.
  5. shasherin_pavel
    shasherin_pavel 24 July 2016 11: 45
    +4
    Have you missed my article here "On the frequency of droughts and famine"? There is also an explanation for the Tambov uprising of the kulaks. The Tambov province has always been the breadbasket of Russia and provided grain supplies abroad. Even during the First World War, both provided bread for half of the army. And when they were told that all the surplus should be sold at the state price to the state, they rose up against the food detachments. They will rot in the ground not according to the state price, they will not sell ... Then food detachments were needed to find the hidden grain and not let it rot. Now food detachments are accused of all sins. You can imagine that the Komsomol members of the peasants would take the last from the same peasant, or the worker would make the poor peasant starve.
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 24 July 2016 12: 03
      -5
      This attempt to whitewash the crazy Kabbalists (who even carried the red star upside down) somehow does not explain the hunger ...
    2. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 24 July 2016 12: 03
      -1
      This attempt to whitewash the crazy Kabbalists (who even carried the red star upside down) somehow does not explain the hunger ...
  • Orionvit
    Orionvit 23 July 2016 18: 55
    +6
    the only way to income ukrodolbikov-will be war. Like in Afghanistan
    You are wrong, as it will not be in Afghanistan. Afghans, although decent creatures, but the warriors are also good, unlike the Ukrainians, who were only able to slaughter the civilian population. For example, the "Galichina" division, the valiant Soviet Army (I don't remember which front), was smashed to smithereens in three hours. "Bounces" really with the help of the Americans left for Canada, and now they returned with the old hatred of the old yeast. The results are all visible.
  • Arikkhab
    Arikkhab 25 July 2016 15: 54
    +2
    from my point of view, NATO may be pushing the Ukrainians, but this is not the main factor ... "poor ordinary people" is sheer nonsense. if, for example, I grew up next to my grandfather, a front-line soldier, then no propaganda will make me think that fascism is something positive. What we see in Ukraine goes far beyond "they were forced" ... they are the descendants of those who burned Khatyn. they were brought up on the image of Bandera. I agree, not all, but many. sufficient to create a "critical mass". they sincerely hate Russia (like the Poles and the Balts). look at the comments on the Russian helicopter shot down in Syria ... look what joy covered the "neighbors" when the athletes were not allowed to the Olympic Games in Rio ... look what they are doing in Donbass. It doesn't look like "pushed". No need for illusions like "they were deceived" - you need to really take the behavior of Ukrainians for granted and build relationships with them accordingly - no need to kill, no need to spread rot, but you need to understand that these are enemies (and not what kind of brothers) and not turn your back on them
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 25 July 2016 15: 57
      0
      we must also understand that it may not be Ukrainians ...
      1. Mykl
        Mykl 26 July 2016 09: 43
        0
        Yeah, the Dutch.
  • v02000
    v02000 23 July 2016 14: 27
    -57%
    The authorities are not raguli, but people of nationality, which cannot be called, but, using the grandeur of raglacy - Ragul, who makes 5 mistakes in 3 words ABOVE mos ... la !!! They finish this territory ... About hunger - in cities where it’s enough a lot of sane people ... And the so-called. farmers, especially in the East of Ukraine, feed the Natsik for free and from the belly ... Believe me, or check. Come ... By the way, the military registration and enlistment offices of the Luhansk region are crammed up with those who want to get a contract in the whole from the northern regions of the region ....
    1. SeregaBoss
      SeregaBoss 23 July 2016 16: 05
      +21
      Yes, we believe. Even there, in the Ukriya in the east, heifers walk in herds and push the slingshots to the Nazis, free of charge, on a voluntary basis. The Nazis are rolling like cheese in butter, we believe. But why the military registration and enlistment offices on the contract in the APU are crammed, I do not understand, "you are not talking about something, Gerasim," or APU = ps?
    2. Mourner
      Mourner 23 July 2016 16: 15
      +12
      And on the scoreboard there are one zeros, one zeros, yes ah lyuli ... etc.! Svidomo, would you go to your Svidomo!
    3. APASUS
      APASUS 23 July 2016 17: 04
      +2
      Quote: v02000
      ... And so-called farmers, especially in the East of Ukraine, feed the Natsik for free and from the belly ... Believe me, or check. Come ... By the way, the military registration and enlistment offices of the Luhansk region are crammed up with those who want to get a contract in the whole from the northern regions of the region ....

      It turns out interesting what happened in Ukraine over a year, the economy worked, they found a source of oil or gas, maybe a gold deposit?
      And the paradoxical situation is at least the fact that some are fed and it’s the turn to get into the APU for a contract, while others are caught right on the street?
      The last week of the spring-summer draft in Kharkov and the region turned out to be hot. Following the mobilization, which, relatively speaking, took to the streets, the military enlistment offices began to resort to similar methods in cases of conscription. As a result, the guys became soldiers, not having time to say goodbye to relatives and not even taking documents from the house.

      Thus, Kharkov citizen Alexander Magura got to military service right from the street. The boy’s friends say that he was taken away to serve without a summons and the conclusions of the medical board. In the military registration and enlistment office, they parry: they say, conscripts at first violate the law themselves, and then they are surprised at harsh measures on the part of the military.

      Alexander Maguru (left) from the training will be sent to a part near Kirovograd. Photo: vk.com
    4. kotvov
      kotvov 23 July 2016 17: 52
      +7
      ..By the way, the military registration and enlistment offices of the Luhansk region are crammed up with those who want to get a contract in the university from the northern regions of the region .... ,,
      how they announce the grave, you do not run away, right away to the draft board.
      1. revnagan
        revnagan 23 July 2016 18: 47
        0
        Quote: kotvov
        how they announce the grave, you do not run away, right away to the draft board.

        Too great a difference in payment to contract soldiers and draftees ...
    5. Simple
      Simple 23 July 2016 18: 46
      +4
      Quote: v02000
      ..And so-called farmers, especially in the East of Ukraine, feed Natsik for free and from the belly ...

      Yesterday I talked with a friend from you: yes they feed, yes from the belly. But he says at gunpoint.
      "Azov" also receives sponsorship money (for "so" but with a gun)
      I don’t know whether to believe ...
    6. Orionvit
      Orionvit 23 July 2016 19: 14
      +19
      v02000. Where are you from so much. I saw such a picture in the Ukrainian military registration and enlistment offices, in March 2014. there was a huge number of people who wanted to fight with Russia. They thought the war was a joke or a game. All these "patriots", either in unmarked graves under the guise of surgical waste, or remained disabled. Miners and tractor drivers, piled up in full. Now they praise service in the Armed Forces of Ukraine, mainly those who have either served their checkpoints or in the rear. And only those who can not work because of crooked hand, or convicted persons, and also DB, go to the APU. That's the whole contingent of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Of course there are professionals, but they are few and there is not enough for the entire "army". You are a provocateur, better tell me how much you get paid, or at worst, your position in the SBU.
      1. Cruel beaver
        Cruel beaver 24 July 2016 04: 45
        +5
        I fully support. All bosota-gopota from my m. in 2014 they briskly rushed into the ranks of the well-wielders and the Armed Forces of Ukraine ... Very little returned.

        There is only one plus in this: the army of New Russia was able to slightly ease the criminal situation in our railway station. ....
        Already only for this I am grateful to Donbass!
    7. atakan
      atakan 24 July 2016 03: 08
      +2
      v02000 By the way, the military registration and enlistment offices of the Luhansk region are crammed up with those who want to get a contract in the military school from the northern regions of the region ....

      Even more organs for transplants to clinics in the USA and Europe, all of you, in parts, will join the European Union.
      Not dead yet?
    8. shasherin_pavel
      shasherin_pavel 24 July 2016 12: 24
      +1
      If you have a machine gun and there is no power, then you, like "dad Makhno," will roll like cheese in butter. And drunk on an infantry fighting vehicle to drive cars. And just like Mariupol, you can press girls on BMPs and have nothing for it ... or rather, you will have again vodka and bacon from the peasants ... and everything is free, and if they don’t want to free of charge, then you can pay with lead.
  • WKS
    WKS 23 July 2016 15: 35
    +14
    It is strange that the author, calling himself an expert on the history of the famine of 1932/33, signs himself with an avatar, and not with his own name. Maybe not everything is so simple in this story? According to the stories of my parents, aunts and uncles, I know a description of this period in the villages of the Kuban, where people were also dying of hunger. This starving people were not allowed to approach the railway. stations where trains went to the Black Sea resorts from Moscow, Leningrad, Kiev, Minsk and many other large cities of the USSR. In these cities, they did not even hear that in the Kuban villages thousands of people were dying of hunger, that all the dogs and cats were eaten. My uncle worked at an elevator guarded by the NKVD troops. The elevator was full of grain. All those who worked there received bread rations, which they secretly shared with their starving relatives to the best of their ability. I can still retell a lot from what they told about the famine in the Kuban.
    1. Orionvit
      Orionvit 23 July 2016 19: 46
      +8
      My Parents are also from the Kuban villages. My father was the smallest of the three brothers, and could not eat quinoa stew, he was sent to another village to his own aunt, who worked in trade, and of course the food was easier. That's how he stayed alive. Then he grew up, graduated from a military school, and gave birth to my brother and me, for which many thanks to him. He served with honor, as an artillery officer for 25 years for the glory of a huge country. But back to the question. According to his recollections, the famine in the Kuban in 1946. was terrible. And this is in the land where everything grows. I don't know if this was intentional or tragic circumstances, but it is a fact. Yes, the 1949 propaganda film. "Kuban Cossacks", which shows an unprecedented abundance, played a negative role. A huge number of residents of an immense country went to the Kuban for happiness (as in 1991 to the west for 50 varieties of sausage), but it turned out that in the Kuban, as elsewhere.
      1. shasherin_pavel
        shasherin_pavel 24 July 2016 12: 43
        0
        Quote: Orionvit
        famine in the Kuban in 1946 was scary.

        And you have not heard that the drought of 1946 affected Romania, Hungary, Germany. Just one fact: before the revolution in the Russian Empire, hunger from drought existed for three years ... A year of drought, when the crops were eaten, a year without drought, but there was nothing to sow, therefore there was no harvest, they survived at the expense of the fruit trees that survived and for the third year the new crop has not yet ripened. I have already written in other articles that the famine began when the harvest burned out in August September, when they ate past stocks, and the new ones did not ripen. So it was always written "famine of 1893-1897", "famine of 1901-1903". And in your opinion: the famine of 1946 ... but where did the bread come from in January 1947? I have already noticed that after my article "The Frequency of Droughts and the Holodomor" they began to write the famine of 1932-1933, although before that the "Holodomor of 1932". I personally cannot imagine that people were dying of hunger for one year. Until October, in any case, there were supplies (I had mushrooms in the refrigerator last year at home), and in January 1947 there was no mention of famine! This is how? Was the second harvest harvested before January?
        1. alexej123
          alexej123 25 July 2016 11: 04
          +2
          Everything that is written for the Kuban is the TRUTH. The famine of 1932 and 1933 also affected my family. My mother's older sister, the family of my mother's uncle, died in the past as a Cossack officer (5 people, three of them children) all died. Grandmother and sister could not take them to the cemetery, they really didn’t have the strength, the corpses were lowered into the cellar and the adobe hut was filled up, they were thrown down with their backs. In some of the villages, the famine was artificial. Who is interested in the "Black List" ("Black boards") of the Kuban and Rostov settlements. For failure to fulfill the grain procurement plan, the supply of food was stopped, the local population (Cossacks) were forbidden to sell food. Our village was on that mournful list (Ladoga). The main cause of hunger is drought. But due to overly "zealous" campaigners in some settlements, the famine was also caused by subjective reasons. For lovers of everything Soviet to present only in a "rosy light" - I do not blame anyone, but there were such facts, whether you like it or not.
  • Monarchist
    Monarchist 23 July 2016 16: 34
    +5
    Then the Bolsheviks caused famine by accelerating collectivization (read Sholokhov's letters to Stalin). Let's give the Bolsheviks their due: they somehow eliminated them, but these were on the principle: "after us, at least two puddles"
  • Homo
    Homo 23 July 2016 14: 43
    +3
    Quote: cniza
    Now it is useless for them to prove something, while the raguli in power, when they are dropped, then everyone will understand.

    Yes, that's just now and need to prove, while there is still someone who remembers the truth. And they will be able to answer, at least in private, those who want to know more than they say on the "box". And later, when there is no one to ask, "maydanutye" will be able to fill in any fairy tales!
    1. Orionvit
      Orionvit 24 July 2016 00: 53
      +1

      Yes, just now it is necessary to prove, while there are still those who remember the truth. And they will be able to answer, at least in private, those who want to know more than they say on the "box". And later, when there is no one to ask, "maydanutye" will be able to fill in any fairy tales!
      Everyone should understand this truth anyway. While there are people, like us and our fathers and grandfathers, who remember how everything was. Not only 10 years ago, but also 40-70. Historians in no way can divide this period of time, how many "historians", so many opinions. But they are unanimous in what was 500-1000 years ago, and they hang us any official nonsense. There are no fathers and grandfathers, and they cannot refute all this nonsense. Although, on the other hand, those old Bandera who marched through the streets of the ancient Russian city of Kiev also believe that they "suffered for their people." But they are geeks, and we do not care, they are enemies.
  • NIKNN
    NIKNN 23 July 2016 14: 47
    +8
    Quote: sever.56
    They are terpily in life, they are "terpily".
    Whining, whining, crying and saying that they are the most unhappy, offended, that they are all oppressed, while wailing the usual - "Give me a penny. Help than you can ..." mentality of "guides" and "Svidomo" poskakunchikov.

    That's for sure, just the other day they asked me to give them Putin ... they say they don’t have their own. Forgot Obama to advise them ... freed soon ...
  • Donhapa
    Donhapa 23 July 2016 22: 35
    +2
    Quote: cniza
    Then the Black Earth region, and the Volga region, and Kalmykia, and Kazakhstan were starving, but NONE of them are whining and whining now. But there, too, hundreds of thousands of people died.

    Quote: cniza
    Now it is useless for them to prove something, while the raguli in power, when they are dropped, then everyone will understand.



    The Stalinist team then saved Ukraine by a miracle. Columns of brand new tractors moved to the Ukrainian fields, which were left without working cattle, while the Volga region was forced to plow on cows.

    Depleted from also starving Russian regions, thousands of wagons sent grain to Ukraine

    Conclusion: here and help such ...
  • Kahlan amnell
    Kahlan amnell 25 July 2016 01: 52
    0
    Quote: cniza
    Now it is useless for them to prove something, while the raguli in power, when they are dropped, then everyone will understand.

    A small clarification - and so far two, or better, three generations will not change. Only then will it be possible to speak only about the emergence of prerequisites for a change in mentality Ukrainians.
  • 97110
    97110 25 July 2016 07: 50
    +3
    Quote: cniza
    while the raguli are in power, when they are dropped, then they themselves will understand everything.

    What raguli? Poroshenko with Kalomoisky? Biden in the presidency, Nuland at the head of the Maidan? Who will understand what? In the adored Donbass, the phrase "mos.kali usyo zyily" appeared without any raguli. And without them he will not die. In the most "Russian" regions of Ukraine, Russophobia is ineradicable, it is like a hemorrhagic fever. Only fine-minded dreamers who have never communicated with the so-called ethnic Russian inhabitants of Ukraine can deny. This look is cunning, with which they look at the "fool" from Russia ... This ineradicable belief that Russia owes them. Or guilty. Now a demonstrative protrusion of its superiority is hidden. But it is alive, and it will definitely come out.
  • Volzhanin
    Volzhanin 25 July 2016 14: 49
    +1
    Actually, Jews are in power there. Terry stopudovye Jews!
    That is why and the result is this. They are building a chimera state for personal enrichment, nothing more. We were in a similar opera in the 90s, when the Jews ruled the ball with the consent of the ebna. Hence Chechnya, etc. etc.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • knn54
    knn54 23 July 2016 13: 39
    +3
    -sever.56: Then the Black Earth Region, and the Volga Region, and Kalmykia, and Kazakhstan were starving ...
    And the Kuban, where Kaganovich was in charge (before that he had been awake in Ukraine too).
    One of the main reasons is to read the Grapes of Wrath novel by John Steinbeck!
  • siberalt
    siberalt 23 July 2016 14: 10
    +29
    Drought was all over the ball. And America at the same latitudes got it. The author is right that in Russia she was aggravated by both internal political processes and the refusal of help from abroad. As for the Ukrainian nationalists, they are always happy when a cow dies at a neighbor. And if his own dies - blame the neighbor. Nothing has changed since then.
  • Monarchist
    Monarchist 23 July 2016 16: 21
    0
    As a result of the famine in the Kuban, more than 100 were killed: wheat was raked to the grain to feed the Volga and Ukraine.
    1. alexej123
      alexej123 25 July 2016 11: 12
      0
      Yes, no one knows how many died. Some villages still cannot be restored to their previous numbers. People were buried in courtyards and streets in mass graves. Even the approximate figure is unknown. But a lot of people died out.
  • pafegosoff
    pafegosoff 23 July 2016 20: 56
    +8
    Where Kazakhstan is, there is Western Siberia (Kazakhstan is mainly formed from the former Tobolsk province). And, I must say, outbreaks of drought in the rich granary happened ... in 1911, for example, even the grass did not give birth. There was no Swan! My grandfather told how he and the villagers traveled to more successful places for sowing grain. We changed everything that was at home. Well, five hundred kilometers is not a distance for Siberia. So, just like in Ukraine, the layer of sordnyaks was solid (although they shot a hundred thousand in 1921. The Ishim uprising was more impressive than the Tambov uprising and rolled from Petropavlovsk all the way to the Arctic Ocean. He sent thousands of peasants to execution and ensured, along with the droughts, such a famine ... worked before Ukraine in Siberia together with Eikhe! Which speaks of the planned and coordinated actions, developed, probably by their idol Lev Davidovich Bronstein (not without the help of Colonel House, who carried out the same famine in the USA). The tricks of the globalists are often inexplicable. Why did they make a great depression and plunged the United States into a wild crisis? Why did they bring Hitler to power? And who are "they"? What kind of struggle did they have when some were betting on one team, others - on their opponents? Only very, very influential and rich people (a certain group) could build a plant in the USSR per day. Another group of the same kind helped Germany at the same rate. It is easier and faster there - transportation costs are a hundred times less!
    And Ukraine ... for the masters of the world, this republic was, as now - on the site Between Mexico and Honduras. Excite US business in Mexico? They are worried to the extent that the electorate of Latinos can influence the election of someone. And how the electorate of the Ukrainian diaspora can affect ... Well, some kind of lobby. So they called official corruption. Who first drove about the insidious Muscovites who staged a famine? Maybe fellow countryman Kossior Zbigniew Brzezinski? Never mind. Russia has always had enough enemies. The main thing: brainwash, charge with an idiotic idea (clever ideas do not inspire the crowd, they make you think, and this (according to Savelyev) the monkeys do not like.
  • Evgenia
    Evgenia 24 July 2016 03: 27
    0
    All the same, they feel sorry for them.
  • Sagittarius YaNAO
    Sagittarius YaNAO 24 July 2016 03: 41
    +2
    We are already getting used to the fact that they are morons.
    1. Reptiloid
      Reptiloid 24 July 2016 09: 24
      0
      And the gap pattern --- where is it? What place does man have? A joke.
      If what was written in the article turned out to be true --- I would be very happy. However, a lot of questions. Looked at the link. In the original, there is Ukrainian, not Ukrainian. And the article of 2014, February, before the Maidan. During this time I somehow did not hear the confirmation of new facts set forth in the article. But the fact that the Ukrainians lie, falsify, slander --- no doubt !
      1. Basarev
        Basarev 24 July 2016 10: 29
        +1
        Columns of brand new tractors moved to the Ukrainian fields, which were left without working cattle, while the Volga region was forced to plow on cows.

        This is the whole Soviet power - to tear from the Russians, so that the national authorities do not stir. I less and less believe in Soviet ideals - what is one national policy of the USSR worth? Then, in droves, they gave the Russian lands to adjacent tribes (and Stalin, as the People’s Commissar, claimed these redistributions). Every other nation received an autonomous republic - and the Russians refused.
  • shasherin_pavel
    shasherin_pavel 24 July 2016 11: 34
    0
    Quote: sever.56
    But there, too, hundreds of thousands of people died.

    What's interesting is that a person writes a positive review of an article about the Holodomor, but at the same time brings "hundreds of thousands of people" from Khrushchev's propaganda. People received bread on ration cards in the Volga region and in Baku, while a worker for each family member received a hundred grams more than an engineer or an employee. The 31-year-old is best described by fighter pilot Boris Dementyev, who by the way was one of the pioneers who noticed rail deformation from unprecedented heat and warned the lineman who stopped the locomotive and reported such an unprecedented precedent in Russia: rail deformation from heat. He also writes that in the fall of 1932, a bucket of pears cost 17 kopecks. It was also necessary to recall the attempt to Ukrainize the population of the Kursk and Voronezh regions, when the Ukrainian administration began to create Ukrainian schools, publish Ukrainian newspapers and books in these regions, it came to the point that part of the documentation began to be written in two languages: Ukrainian and Russian. This orgy was stopped by the OGPU in 1932. They had to carry out a series of arrests, eliminate documentation in Ukrainian, and hand over empty "Ukrainian" schools for teaching only in Russian. During the drought of 1893-1897, hundreds of thousands of peasants died of hunger, and any attempt to help them was stolen by officials. How to treat the famine of 1901-1903, when the peasants were mobilized in 1904 for the Japanese war? One can also recall 1601, when the boyars and patriarchs had grain rotting in their barns, and tens of thousands of people perished from hunger. The monasteries had grain, which would have sufficed them for five years of drought, but like the boyars, they did not throw it out on the market, they expected an even higher price. But the chronicles say that the price of bread has increased 100 times !!! Imagine that a loaf of bread would now cost 3000 rubles !!! Apparently, the chroniclers of that time did not understand that hunger was needed to eliminate Boris Godunov and change the government.
  • Magic archer
    Magic archer 23 July 2016 12: 59
    +26
    Sharia had a history blog the other day. It talked about how the USSR collaborated with the Nazis in the TWENTIES of the 20 century !!!! And smart-looking men say that the Nazis (before Hitler came almost 10 years old) were the best friends of the communist Russia! Well, is it really true that the people completely lost their memory?! After all, it will not be difficult to get into the Internet and read! And the ugly truth will come out. And about the Holodomor, and about Bandera trash and about Hiroi (traitors) like Mazepa! And then in fact it turns out that present Ukraine does not have hiroev ...
    1. Simple
      Simple 23 July 2016 17: 40
      +5
      1. In Germany, there were not fascists, but Nazis (NSDAP).
      The Nazis were in Italy (Duce)
      2. Really cooperated: with the Wehrmacht and with the "blacks" the same

      Tight up to 1933
      The most classified object of the Reichswehr in the USSR was Tomka, in which the Germans invested about 1 of a million marks.
      There were also objects: Lipetsk, Kama
      And with "black" read:
      signed by the Head of the NKVD of the USSR Lavrenty Beria and SS Reichsfuhrer Heinrich Müller signed on November 11 of November 1938 by the “General Agreement on Cooperation, Mutual Assistance and Joint Activities”.

      Still interesting document: Appendix 8: Stalin's speech at a meeting of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the CPSU (B) of 19 August 1939 of the year
      1. Orionvit
        Orionvit 23 July 2016 19: 56
        +5
        In Germany there were not fascists, but Nazis
        How tired these lovers of "truth" and "precise formulations". I will answer with the words from Vysotsky's song, "what's on his forehead, what's on his forehead, everything is one." All of them were brothers in ideology, and only fascists remained in the memory of the Soviet man, the rest is not important.
        1. Simple
          Simple 23 July 2016 22: 38
          -1
          Quote: Orionvit
          How tired these lovers of "truth" and "precise formulations".

          How tired of these stupid ones who cannot distinguish "polyulation" from "evolution".
          They are all one.
          On the suckers-lovers, all the lies on this planet are built.
          So for reference-l manifesto dei fasci di combattimento ("manifesto of fascism")
          Universal suffrage;
          Proportional representation at the regional level;
          Female suffrage;
          Establishment of national economic councils;
          Dissolution of the Senate of Italy;
          Formation of National councils (ministries) of labor, industry, transport, health, communications, etc.

          Introducing an 8-hour workday;
          Establishment of the minimum wage;
          The participation of workers in production management;
          Strengthening the influence of trade unions;
          Repair and reconstruction of railways, as well as the construction of new ones;
          Revision of the Disability Insurance Bill;
          Reduce retirement age from 65 to 55 years.
          In the military section:

          The creation of a short-term service in the national police with special defensive duties;
          Nationalization of military factories;
          Peaceful but competitive foreign policy.


          Strong progressive capital tax;
          The seizure of all church property and the abolition of all dioceses, which bear a huge responsibility for the nation and the privileges of the poor;
          Revision of all contracts for martial law;
          Review of all military contracts and the capture of 85 percent of the profits in them.

          ----------------------
          If the great Mikhail Romm was mistaken, he is excusable. No deer
          1. guzik007
            guzik007 24 July 2016 09: 30
            0
            How tired of these stupid ones who cannot distinguish "polyulation" from "evolution".
            -----------------------------------------------
            Oh cunning, just a TIT.
            You better remind us of ideology, about ideology. About how on other people's bones to paradise ...
            And what you have outlined here is for many, I think, not a discovery if you counted on it.
        2. shasherin_pavel
          shasherin_pavel 24 July 2016 13: 08
          +1
          Burning
          Quote: Orionvit
          what's on your forehead, what's on your forehead, everything is one "

          Elephant said without parsing
          "It can be seen ... he"
          Is it because we do not notice that the "Nazis", as followers of Hitlerism, almost began to walk the streets. Everyone is shouting: "They are not fascists, they are National Socialists." They see some kind of difference between Nazis and Fascists. The Nazis are banned, but they are thinking about the Nazis ... what if they are good ?!
      2. pafegosoff
        pafegosoff 24 July 2016 01: 08
        +4
        Muller was never a Reichsfuhrer.
        Chief of the Secret State Police (IV Division of the RSHA) of Germany (1939-1945), SS Group Gangführer and Police Lieutenant General (1941)
        Yes, and in the SS he was accepted automatically. By the way, comparing it with Beria, you can find a similarity in one thing: a giant capacity for work. At work - a man-machine: any issue was resolved as quickly as possible, without bothering with morality.
        What to do? But the USSR was generally under siege. So choose: either cooperate with Germany, or - cook in your own juice. Now is Turkey. Bad, but civilized Europe in general -.
        1. Simple
          Simple 24 July 2016 12: 15
          0
          Like someone wrote that Mueller was a Reichswehr?
          Read carefully: Müller is black.
          Links to documents are given.
          You can check
      3. shasherin_pavel
        shasherin_pavel 24 July 2016 12: 57
        +2
        After the signing of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pack, Churchill himself went to Hitler and proposed a peace treaty if Germany breaks its pact with the USSR. Until Hitler attacked England, he was an ordinary German chancellor and all the presidents of the world greeted him by the hand ... and dictators as well. It should be noted that Ribbentrop and Molotov are foreign ministers, and Churchill and Hitler are the rulers of the state. And one more thing: over the entire period of cooperation in the USSR, 200 pilots and about 400 tankers were trained. England trained just under 2 German Luftwaffe troops. do you have an understanding of 000 and 200? So who had Hitler's sword forged?
        1. Aleksander
          Aleksander 25 July 2016 13: 26
          0
          Quote: shasherin_pavel
          After signing the Molotov-Ribbentrop pack Churchill himself went to Hitler and proposed a peace treaty if Germany breaks its pact with the USSR. Until Hitler attacked England, he was the ordinary Chancellor of Germany and all the presidents of the world greeted him by the hand .. and dictators as well
          Tell an alternative version of the story: when did Hitler attack England? belay lol
          And tell about Churchill’s meeting with Hitler from August 30 to September 3 of September 1939. lol
          1. Simpsonian
            Simpsonian 25 July 2016 13: 35
            0
            better write when Stalin with Hitler at least once met in person?
            1. Aleksander
              Aleksander 25 July 2016 22: 49
              0
              Quote: Simpsonian
              better write when Stalin with Hitler at least once met in person?


              ask comrade Shasherin: it was in HIS reality: he is in the know and German attacks on England lol and meetings of August 1939 lol (and he claimed exactly that). Ask about their other meetings: he probably has them (in his reality)
    2. Zulu_S
      Zulu_S 23 July 2016 19: 21
      +6
      Actually, there was no secret in the cooperation of Owls. Russia and Germany (Weimar Republic). Togo-economic relations were established quite officially, in accordance with the Rappalski Treaty of 1922. Military relations, due to restrictions on Germany under the Versailles Peace Treaty, were secret and mutually beneficial.
      1. murriou
        murriou 24 July 2016 05: 36
        +4
        But the difference between 1925 and 1935, between the Weimar Republic and the Third Reich, for many of the current idiots is strictly kept secret, and many of these current propaganda use it.

        The difference between the non-aggression pact (similar to which almost all European countries had with Germany) and the treaty of alliance (which the USSR and Germany never had) were also classified for them.
        1. murriou
          murriou 24 July 2016 06: 26
          -1
          Yes, when they put the cons, but they can’t argue out loud - I am pleased with your impotent anger.
          Thank you nerds, pleased again wink
  • Gormenghast
    Gormenghast 23 July 2016 13: 06
    +32
    There was famine, but no famine!

    Everyone suffered, not just Svidomo. Every shit who will prove to me that my grandfather was not injured, and only Svidomites suffered is the essence of a satanic offspring.

    I, ..., ..., ..., ... I KNOW all this.

    I do not care for these shit. I know what BREAD is.

    I was cooked with a quinoa stew (we specially went, and they showed me everything), so that I would forever remember the Fascists and their henchmen.

    While I am alive, not a single fascist will live.
  • tatra
    tatra 23 July 2016 13: 07
    +12
    The enemies of the Communists slandered the Bolshevik Communists in order to justify their capture of the USSR.
    For as many as a quarter of a century of possession of the republics of the USSR, the enemies of the communists no longer have the slightest excuse / justification for their capture of the USSR, and they continue to slander the communists.
    And the "Holodomors" of both the Soviet people in Soviet Russia / USSR and the peoples in the former republics of the USSR have always suited and are being arranged by the enemies of the Bolshevik communists.
    In Soviet Russia and the USSR, the enemies of the communists deliberately deprived the Soviet people of food, massively destroying grain and livestock, sabotaging work on collective farms, stealing "three ears of corn" in sacks and pounds.
    And after they seized the republics of the USSR, they doomed and doomed people to starvation for many months without paying salaries and pensions.
    1. V.ic
      V.ic 23 July 2016 14: 07
      -2
      Quote: tatra
      (1) Enemies the communists... .
      (2) For as many as a quarter of a century of possession of the republics of the USSR, among enemies the communists ... against the communists.
      (3) .... the Bolsheviks-the communists.
      (4) In Soviet Russia and the USSR, enemies the communists.
      And after they seized the republics of the USSR, they doomed and doomed people to starvation for many months without paying salaries and pensions.

      MISCELLANEOUS! Why not mention the communists in the fifth (5) sentence? Less to you!
      1. tatra
        tatra 23 July 2016 16: 42
        -2
        Quote: V.ic
        Why not mention the communists in the fifth (5) sentence?

        It is useless to press me; I am impenetrable.
      2. tatra
        tatra 23 July 2016 16: 42
        0
        Quote: V.ic
        Why not mention the communists in the fifth (5) sentence?

        It is useless to press me; I am impenetrable.
        1. V.ic
          V.ic 24 July 2016 07: 16
          -2
          Quote: tatra
          It is useless to press me; I am impenetrable.

          Forgot to add the word "communist" again. Inserting the specified word in each sentence is your style (template yes ) Hence the confusion when reading your smashing lines with the absence of a mandatory insert. repeat Hello and watch, please us with the pearls of your thoughts, they bloom our gray everyday life! hi
      3. Svidetel 45
        Svidetel 45 23 July 2016 17: 13
        +6
        Do not confuse God's GIVEN with scrambled eggs, do not confuse changeling with party tickets with COMMUNISTS.
        1. edmed
          edmed 24 July 2016 09: 21
          +1
          I support you completely. My grandmother, who was twice unkillable and raised 3 children in the pre-war and war years, my grandfather died in 34, a sole owner, always talking about politics, saying "This (Soviet) power will collapse" "and was expecting a strong backside, but instead I heard the answer:" The real communists remained in the trenches, whoever returned, either got bored or driven under the bench, this is why this power will end "Maybe not literally, but remembered the meaning. grandmother died in 79. PS When the mass withdrawal from the CPSU began, he asked one hard worker: "You are crying, but what the hell was I paying party fees, wasting time at party meetings, why did I join? And what is not clear, I drove, suddenly, an accident with a fatal, non-party to the zone, and I had a party membership card on the table "this is a simple worker, but above, he laid out an indulgence on the table and you are free and no matter what you have done there. These are the "communists" who blossomed in the "thaw" and got into "developed socialism"
  • ALABAY45
    ALABAY45 23 July 2016 13: 07
    +27
    The only nation in the world that has managed to prove that the evolutionary spiral has a reverse gear ...! recourse
  • Stinger
    Stinger 23 July 2016 13: 08
    +6
    Soon they will know what the famine is. They will jump a little more and find out.
    1. slav4ikus
      slav4ikus 23 July 2016 13: 31
      +4
      and the famine and the cold (
  • dr.star75
    dr.star75 23 July 2016 13: 14
    +5
    Then the Black Earth region, and the Volga region, and Kalmykia, and Kazakhstan were starving, but NONE of them are whining and whining now. But there, too, hundreds of thousands of people died.
    They have (dill), no pride, no honor, no self-esteem. The inferiority complex alone and the fix idea that everyone owes them ... I agree
    1. olegyurjewitch
      olegyurjewitch 24 July 2016 20: 46
      0
      Quote: dr.star75
      when the Black Earth region, and the Volga region, and Kalmykia, and Kazakhstan were starving, but NONE of them now whine and ache. But there, too, hundreds of thousands of people died.
      They have (dill), no pride, no honor, no self-esteem. The inferiority complex alone and the fixed idea that they all owe them ..

      Yes, they were starving specifically, the Volga region died out. Our steppes are one clay, the Volga still has gardens. Ukraine did not die of horseradish from hunger, on the contrary haggled.
      1. goose
        goose 25 July 2016 10: 10
        +1
        Quote: olegyurjewitch
        Yes, they were starving specifically, the Volga region died out. Our steppes are one clay, the Volga still has gardens. Ukraine did not die of horseradish from hunger, on the contrary haggled.

        It is strange to hear about the famine in a country covered with gardens, with hazel and berries in the forests. Apples are in baskets all winter; nothing happens to them. Try to find something edible in the taiga, or in the steppe. Gardens in Siberia and Kazakhstan did not grow before.
        The percentage of urban population in Ukraine was relatively small. There was still not much confinement to slaughter a cow, like 50 years later, after the boom of population growth in the USSR. There was something to feed on, pasture was.
  • Altona
    Altona 23 July 2016 13: 18
    +22
    Yeltsin and Chubais went on a famine in 1994-1998, our salaries of 2 years were delayed, and pensions of 2-3 months. What is it like?
    1. ML-334
      ML-334 23 July 2016 14: 34
      +9
      Survived, and thank God! But they knew the liberals and other democrats, and you can’t get us on the chaff.
  • grandfather Mih
    grandfather Mih 23 July 2016 13: 36
    +16
    Both my mother, an ordinary soldier of the war, and her brother, who became a commander before the war, told me about these hungry years. He knew from history that "the leader of the Western world, England broke off economic relations with the USSR, pushing it into the abyss of hunger." These moral ... will not calm down. An extra island for me.
    1. tatra
      tatra 23 July 2016 13: 45
      +2
      Quote: Grandfather Micah
      I was told about these hungry years

      And my Moscow relatives were starving in the early 30s, but no one in the USSR ever said that the communists had deliberately decided to stage a "Holodomor".
      Very interestingly, on the "Court of Time" program, Kravchuk answered Kurginyan's question about the strange, directly opposite voting of the Ukrainians in March and December 1991, when in March the majority of Ukrainians voted FOR the preservation of the USSR, and in December the majority FOR "independence", and Kravchuk explained this by that in this interval the Ukrainians LEARNED about the "Holodomor".
      1. Anatole Klim
        Anatole Klim 23 July 2016 14: 16
        +26
        Quote: tatra
        no one in the USSR ever said that the communists deliberately decided to stage a "Holodomor".

        My woman Nyura (born in 1910) spoke about the famine in the Volga region, there was nothing at all, soup from grass and quinoa, nothing more. Grandfather could not stand it, he was exhausted completely, walked like a shadow, slaughtered his dog, ate somehow he held out until the village council gave a pound of grain. The Communists never blamed, she said, too, were starving. In old age she walked and fed stray dogs and cried ...
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Palch
      Palch 23 July 2016 15: 03
      -12%
      Quote: Grandfather Micah
      He knew from history that "the leader of the Western world, England broke off economic relations with the USSR, pushing it into the abyss of hunger." These moral ... will not calm down. An extra island for me

      And what does England have to do with it, if our compatriots enforcing the party’s instructions on universal collectivization were often illiterate, limited and embittered people ... If England did not give us bread, then no one bothered us to grow it ourselves. However, as now !!!
      1. tatra
        tatra 23 July 2016 16: 05
        +2
        Quote: Palch
        then no one bothered us to grow it ourselves. However, as now !!!

        You, the enemies of the communists in Russia and Ukraine, have been collecting less grain for a quarter of a century than in the RSFSR and the Ukrainian SSR in 1991, and you expose for your "achievement" in comparison with the USSR that you destroyed two-thirds of the cattle in Russia and Ukraine, and drive the released grain for export.
        1. Monarchist
          Monarchist 23 July 2016 17: 18
          +3
          Lieutenant, write to the OGPU that an anti-communist and liberalists are on the Voennoye Obozreniye website. Although 2/3 of forum residents do not accept liberals
        2. bk316
          bk316 25 July 2016 22: 53
          +2
          Quote: tatra
          You enemies of the communists

          And can an immodest question? And how old are you (well, up to a dozen)? laughing
          I ask, because I have a very complicated attitude towards the CPSU, but in one my experience gives me 100% confidence.
          Those communists who shouted most about the enemies in 70-80-90 polls betrayed the cause of communism. And such obstinacy as yours either speaks of young years, or causes suspicion.

          According to the article, I testify that my grandfather personally participated in, how to say it, in the seizure of the "surplus" - the party sent - so there was no connection between the seizures and the Ukrainian nationality. Such then could not even come to mind.
      2. Yura
        Yura 23 July 2016 16: 24
        +10
        Quote: Palch
        our compatriots enforcing party instructions on universal collectivization

        First you try to ask yourself a question, why did collectivization actually arise? Try to answer. At that time, the question of the country's survival was electrification, industrialization after many years of the First World War and the Civil War, the individualists simply could not provide this jerk, most of them because they could not buy high-performance equipment, and it was also self-serving, it cannot be discounted and commonplace wrecking and sabotage. I’m not talking about everyone, but the scale of this was not small if it was necessary to change the way of life of the Russian peasant, but it’s like cutting into a living body.
        1. tatra
          tatra 23 July 2016 16: 32
          +8
          Quote: Jura
          First you try to ask yourself a question, why did collectivization actually arise?

          And this is an axiom that Soviet collective farms turned out to be a much more effective form of farming than agriculture in the Russian Empire, which did not cope with chronic hunger, and agriculture in the former Soviet republics, where there are remnants of collective farm property and imports, and domestic very little .
          1. murriou
            murriou 23 July 2016 18: 17
            +6
            Exactly. Let me remind you that in 1913 there were 86% of the peasantry in Ingushetia (85% if you count Poland and other "western provinces", in Siberia 88%), and in the USSR in the 30s - already 64-66%,

            That is, during the first five-year periods, the number of workers in the village decreased by almost one and a half times, the number of consumers in the cities more than doubled. And while Soviet agricultural production did not decrease, it even went up.
          2. Oleg Monarchist
            Oleg Monarchist 25 July 2016 15: 08
            -1
            So effective that they bought grain in Canada, potatoes in Cuba, etc. And in the fields, students, soldiers and various workers of research institutes and factories were harvesting crops. laughing
            1. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 25 July 2016 15: 11
              -1
              didn’t interfere with airing to all universities, research institutes, military units in Cuba - is it bad chtol?

              from Canada grain went to starving Africa
              1. Oleg Monarchist
                Oleg Monarchist 25 July 2016 15: 35
                -1
                I traveled, and when I was a student in the army, I was always interested in the question, I wonder if the soldiers of a Bundeswehr also hunchback in the fields, collect potatoes, etc., or do they fight to study with us?
                A student should study, and not travel through the collective farm fields, if he is not a student of an agricultural university, the army should engage in combat training, learn to fight and not collect agricultural products in the fields, so that at the party meeting the fat carcass of the chairman would not be gripped and not listened to from the Bolshevik, shining from fat faces that "the current army removes the sucks fields, but in his years it was different."

                What does "military unit in Cuba" have to do with it?

                Regarding Canada, inquire about "purchases of Canadian grain in the USSR"
                1. Simpsonian
                  Simpsonian 25 July 2016 15: 41
                  -1
                  Except for when not in the army when was it collected?

                  Ask where it later went, and whether the United States helped this very starving Africa, as well as Cuba, by the way.
                  1. Oleg Monarchist
                    Oleg Monarchist 25 July 2016 16: 00
                    0
                    He took an interest, did not find that the grain was purchased in Canada and transported to Africa.

                    Do I live in the USA? To find out if they helped Africa or not?
                    1. Simpsonian
                      Simpsonian 25 July 2016 16: 04
                      0
                      And about the fact that the Soviet Union helped starving Africa still write?

                      Or did you have to first bring the Canadian to the USSR, reload from ship to ship, or just stand with him in the port, and then sail with him to Afreka?
                      1. Oleg Monarchist
                        Oleg Monarchist 25 July 2016 16: 15
                        0
                        Simpsonian, I'm wildly sorry, but ... what did you want to ask? laughing
                      2. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 25 July 2016 16: 30
                        0
                        That's how they understood on the account that Canadian grain went mostly to Africa. And how much the USA lived richly and beautifully if they also helped it.
                      3. Oleg Monarchist
                        Oleg Monarchist 25 July 2016 16: 51
                        0
                        I absolutely do not care how the United States lives, there are a lot of rogues there, but these are US problems.
                      4. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 26 July 2016 01: 21
                        0
                        I don’t care, normal good people are still there.
  • Simple
    Simple 23 July 2016 18: 33
    +5
    Quote: Jura
    First you try to ask yourself a question, why did collectivization actually arise?

    And you do not know? Refer to the original sources:
    Otherwise, the USSR expected the non-fulfillment of export contracts and, as a consequence, the disruption of the industrialization plan.[1]
    On August 24 of 1930 of the year, JV Stalin wrote to VM Molotov about this: “It would be necessary to raise (now) the daily export rate to a minimum of 3-4 million pounds. Otherwise, we risk being left without our new metallurgical and machine-building plants (Avtozavod, Chelyabzavod, etc.). There are wise men who will offer to wait with export until the price of bread in the international market rises to the “highest point”. There are many such wise men in the People's Commissariat of Trade. These sages must be driven into the neck, for they pull us into a trap. To wait, you must have foreign exchange reserves. And we don’t have them. To wait, you need to have a secured position in the international bread market. And we have not had any positions there for a long time - we are only gaining them now, taking advantage of the conditions that are currently favorable for us. In a word, we need to furiously speed up the export of bread. ”
    [2]
    In 1930-1931, 5 million tons of grain were exported per year, however, since 1932, exports began to decline and have not risen since then to 2,1 million tons per year.
    In total, 1930 million tons of grain were exported from the USSR during the 19,5-ies: [3]

    Stalin I.V. Compositions. - T. 17. - [c.347]
    1. Simple
      Simple 23 July 2016 18: 42
      +3
      You see ..... mmm
      Take on the state price from a farmer / private person / kulak, and even for sticks ("workdays") with retribution later, when the thread.
      And for MONEY, for the amount which HE WILL APPOINT (according to the conjuncture) - TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

      Notes

      ↑ Documents of the Russian archives about the famine of 1932 — 1933. in the USSR // "Domestic Archives" No. 2 (2009)
      ↑ Documents of the Russian archives about the famine of 1932 — 1933. in the USSR // "Domestic Archives" No. 2 (2009)
      ↑ USSR Foreign Trade for 1918 — 1940 (Statistical Review). Part I // Vneshtorgizdat, Moscow. 1960;

      For reflection:
      The share of agricultural and industrial products in the export of the USSR (%).


      By the end of 1931, the external debt of the USSR, which had grown to 1.4 billion rubles, became a matter of serious concern to foreign creditors. The existing import plan did not allow us to hope for any serious improvement in the situation in a short time. It was necessary to reduce imports and increase exports. In his letter to Stalin and Molotov in April 1932, the People's Commissar of Commerce Rosengoltz presented a brief plan of such actions. Serious emphasis was supposed to be made on the export of precious metals. Rosengoltz did not ask for bread export.

      The grain export plan in 1932, adopted by the Politburo in January, provided for the export of about 6 million tons. ... For the first half of the 1932 year, 750 thousand tons were exported, but in May, due to the famine, part of this export was returned back, and about 100 thousand tons were purchased abroad.


      Source: Foreign trade of the USSR for 20 years. 1918-1937 Statistical Digest.- M.: International Book, 1939, p. Xnumx
  • Svidetel 45
    Svidetel 45 23 July 2016 17: 28
    +8
    And while England, that she and other Western countries during this period, the period of industrialization in the USSR, specifically, in order to aggravate the food situation, began to demand that wheat be paid for delivered goods to the USSR, limiting the acceptance of currency and gold, this is a fact. So, along with the wrecking, sloppiness, excesses that occurred during collectivization, your England also contributed to the tragedy of 32-33.
  • Zulu_S
    Zulu_S 23 July 2016 19: 27
    0
    None of you, dear, open a history textbook, and at the same time turn on logical thinking.
  • chenia
    chenia 23 July 2016 13: 42
    +15
    All losses after the Civil War are greatly exaggerated by the liberals.

    These losses were (excluding the Second World War) in the range of 4-6 million people (these are all famines, famines, repressions, etc.).

    Hunger in 30 years in Ukraine took 0,6-0,8 ml. people, not 3 million. Yes, and all the organizers of this, were then repressed.

    But after the 90s, the countries of the former USSR lost 70-75 million people, and no one has answered for this yet.
    1. KaPToC
      KaPToC 23 July 2016 14: 21
      -3
      Quote: chenia
      But after the 90s, the countries of the former USSR lost 70-75 million.

      Sturgeon will have to be cut.
      1. chenia
        chenia 23 July 2016 15: 17
        +5
        Do not quite understand. But I give information - the population growth of the USSR over 10 years from the 60th year was at the level of 25-27 million.
        Moreover, the absolute growth in the 80s began to increase (the relative decline in growth was offset by growth from a larger population).

        Well, for 2,5 decades we should have been 70-75 million more people.
        Now take an interest. the number of population for 2016 in the post-Soviet countries.
        1. tatra
          tatra 23 July 2016 16: 10
          +4
          Quote: chenia
          Now take an interest. the number of population for 2016 in the post-Soviet countries.

          Yes, as it was in 1991, about the same amount remained. And after the capture of Russia and Ukraine by the "great philanthropists" enemies of the communists, the supermortality rate in Russia amounted to more than 13 million people, and in Ukraine - more than 2 million people.
          And when they are given these data, they simply brush off "well, they weren't shot," "but they were all drunks."
          1. chenia
            chenia 23 July 2016 16: 33
            +6
            In Ukraine, the losses after the 90s are even more terrible, where there is real genocide.
            There are no more than 40 million of us, (44-45 is official, and that’s counting with Crimea), and it should be 57-58 million.
            1. Orionvit
              Orionvit 23 July 2016 20: 26
              +3
              In Ukraine, the losses after the 90s are even more terrible, where there is real genocide.
              There are no more than 40 million of us, (44-45 is official, and that’s counting with Crimea), and it should be 57-58 million.
              God be with you. 58 million. Svidomo Ukraine will not survive. But to be honest, the drop in the birth rate in Ukraine occurred in 94-97. Then, in schools, instead of the first four classes, they could not form one. Further in 2007-2010, this demographic failure affected applicants. There was a terrible shortage in universities, they already took everyone in a row, it’s the same time that will shoot. I live in Ukraine, and I’m not at all sorry for it. It is a pity only the lost time, the lack of prospects for my child, and now probably an impossible wish will return to their homeland, although Ukraine used to be the homeland.
              1. tatra
                tatra 23 July 2016 20: 35
                +2
                Quote: Orionvit
                God be with you. 58 million. Svidomo Ukraine will not survive.

                It's not about surviving, not surviving. The point is the enormous demographic damage inflicted on Ukraine and the Ukrainian people by the "sobbing" over the mythical "Holodomor".
                Considering the fact that in 1979-1989 the population of the Ukrainian SSR increased by 2 million people and in 1991 amounted to 52 million people, now there should have been 57-58 million people in Ukraine.
              2. tatra
                tatra 23 July 2016 20: 35
                -1
                Quote: Orionvit
                God be with you. 58 million. Svidomo Ukraine will not survive.

                It's not about surviving, not surviving. The point is the enormous demographic damage inflicted on Ukraine and the Ukrainian people by the "sobbing" over the mythical "Holodomor".
                Considering the fact that in 1979-1989 the population of the Ukrainian SSR increased by 2 million people and in 1991 amounted to 52 million people, now there should have been 57-58 million people in Ukraine.
        2. KaPToC
          KaPToC 23 July 2016 17: 55
          0
          Quote: chenia
          Do not quite understand.

          This is not a loss of population, this is a loss of population growth. The population growth chart is NOT DIRECT. We have almost twenty years of a full, prosperous life, but the population is still not growing.
          1. chenia
            chenia 23 July 2016 18: 16
            0
            Quote: KaPToC
            This is not a loss of population, this is a loss of population growth.


            Well, no, if a sharp change appears on the chart, then there is an event that caused it.
            And this event is a disaster.

            40 years there were minor fluctuations, and now a sharp decline. And this must be taken into account that before years the birth rate was not high.

            And something like that at a certain moment. For example, in Ukraine, growth was until 1992, and then a terrible collapse.
            The heyday of liberalism.
            1. KaPToC
              KaPToC 23 July 2016 18: 47
              -1
              Quote: chenia
              Well, no, if a sharp change appears on the chart, then there is an event that caused it.
              And this event is a disaster.

              This event is the Second World War, its result is a lost generation, since
              Quote: chenia
              40 years there were minor fluctuations

              USSR population growth chart - broken curve.
              1. chenia
                chenia 23 July 2016 19: 00
                -1
                Broken curve from 1950 to 1989?

                The broken line is 1941-1945, then monotonous growth until the 90s, and after 90 again.

                CONCLUSIONS.
                1. KaPToC
                  KaPToC 24 July 2016 17: 20
                  -1
                  Quote: chenia
                  CONCLUSIONS.

                  The bottom line is that you are not smart enough to understand that the demographic cycle is twenty years. Monotonous growth in your brain, give a link where you got this "monotonous growth".
                  1. chenia
                    chenia 24 July 2016 18: 03
                    +1
                    Quote: KaPToC
                    Monotonous growth in your brain


                    You first understand the definition - a monotonically increasing function.

                    Next, what cycle does the continuous process have?
                    That there are demographic pits, and then cyclicity through a generation is manifested, it is.
                    But this is how sideways, the demographic hole was in the 80s (the largest increase).

                    Next, what's the problem? More specifically express the idea with which you disagree, or form the statement yourself.

                    Well, I would ask to be more polite.
                    1. KaPToC
                      KaPToC 24 July 2016 20: 49
                      +1
                      Quote: chenia
                      Well, I would ask to be more polite.

                      Well, I'm sorry, you simplified everything so much that there were doubts about your education. Once again, I’m sorry, now it’s clear that you just were too lazy to argue normally.
                    2. bk316
                      bk316 25 July 2016 23: 16
                      +2
                      Quote: chenia
                      monotonously increasing

                      Yes, yes we know what monotonic functions are.

                      But you may also know that in order to assess the factors of influence in inertial systems, one should look not at the objective function (as someone wrote above, something else happened once the population began to decrease) but at its derivative.
                      In this case, the derivative is called natural population growth.
                      Do not be lazy, look at the schedule - it all started not in 93, but in the middle of 80.

                      Well, if you take the next step and analyze the trend of natural growth, it turns out (taking into account the pit from the war) that the situation with demographics from 1950 to 2000 was getting worse and worse and only with the advent of Putin did the trend change.

                      You can try to refute, only please mathematically without slogans, or you can minus.
        3. Orionvit
          Orionvit 23 July 2016 20: 11
          +1
          Now take an interest. the number of population for 2016 in the post-Soviet countries.
          I will answer right away and by eye, picking statistics frankly laziness. Fertility fell only in the Baltic states, Ukraine, and in Russia, and then only among Russians. Among the peoples of the Caucasus, Transcaucasia and Central Asia, the decline in fertility was insignificant. Like in Africa. (joke). And in some post-Soviet regions, it even increased. They do not give birth to children there, they simply breed.
          1. tatra
            tatra 23 July 2016 20: 21
            0
            Quote: Orionvit
            I will answer right away and by eye, picking statistics frankly laziness.

            And I am not "by eye". According to Wikipedia, in 2013, 293 million people lived in the former Soviet republics, plus the population of the "unrecognized republics."
            In the 9 former republics of the USSR, the population declined; in the rest, natural growth sharply decreased.
            For example, in Kazakhstan, if a quarter of a century before 1991, the population increased by 5 million people, then in a quarter of a century after 1991, only by a million people.
            In Tajikistan, if a quarter of a century before 1991, the population increased from 10 to 20 million people, that is, doubled, then in a quarter of a century after 1991, only from 20 to 29 million people, that is, less than half.
            In Russia, if we consider only the mortality / birth rate statistics, from 148 million people in 1991, only 134-135 million people remain.
          2. chenia
            chenia 23 July 2016 20: 28
            0
            Quote: Orionvit
            I will answer right away and by eye, picking statistics frankly laziness. Fertility has fallen only in the Baltic states, Ukraine,


            I will answer. Almost all the republics of the USSR significantly reduced growth, even Central Asian ones. And the total population of the USSR is 293-295 million (a little more than in the 90th).
            And in Ukraine, the worst losses (officially 45 ml.) Minus 7 million. But before 1992 there was growth, and on average over 10 years, the growth was 2.2 million.

            And all of them were mainly Slavs, and even then the overall growth was two times lower than the USSR average. But there was at least a small but population growth (European and urbanized).
            And now? And this is not from a good life, and for all 25 years. Question who will answer? (I generally know the answer).
    2. Monarchist
      Monarchist 23 July 2016 17: 32
      0
      There is such a thing: the liberals were terribly afraid of the Russian Empire and, by the hands of the Jews, destroyed it. Stalin built a new Soviet one, but the liberals also destroyed it with the hands of inverted communists. While BNE was running around with democracy, they subsided. As soon as the people became interested in their history, the destroyer was stored up in the Russian Empire and Stalin, and then the VV Crimea "stole" and rushed: all the Russians and VVs are doing both the night and the wind and the arms race
      1. murriou
        murriou 23 July 2016 18: 00
        -1
        Quote: Monarchist
        liberals were terribly afraid of the Russian Empire

        Well, yes, of course, of course. Why was there something to be afraid of?
        The backward agrarian country, in close economic and technological dependence on the developed countries of Europe, turned out to be even weaker than Japan militarily, it was not able to conduct an independent policy.

        Quote: Monarchist
        with the hands of the Jews they destroyed her.

        OU! Members of the imperial family who plundered on a large scale the money allocated for the defense industry and terribly compromised the power - the Jews?
        1. Dart2027
          Dart2027 23 July 2016 21: 07
          -1
          Quote: murriou
          militarily, even weaker than Japan was

          And therefore, in order for Japan to win in the REV, it was necessary to organize an uprising?
          1. murriou
            murriou 24 July 2016 06: 00
            +2
            Quote: Dart2027
            so that Japan won the RJE, had to organize an uprising?

            Learn the story.

            The RPE was almost completely lost with the capture of Port Arthur and the destruction of the 1st TOE in December 1904.
            All as one land battle brought the Russian army only defeat and retreat; at sea, Russia also had nothing good.

            Finally, the REV was lost by Russia on land in February 1905 at Mukden, at sea the last chance for a miracle was destroyed in May 1905. under Tsushima, with a terrific loss ratio on a global (!) scale.

            Official data about 5 thousand. Russian dead in Tsushima, announced before (!) the calculation of losses, underestimated by 1,5 times, and about 6 thousand were captured.

            The Japanese lost a minuscule in this battle: 3 destroyers and 117 dead, counting those who died from wounds after the battle.

            The first revolutionary demonstrations began after the fall of Port Arthur.
            They became massive after Tsushima.

            The Japanese permanent victories in the REV and their final victory in the war became the impetus for the 1905 revolution, and not its consequence.
            1. murriou
              murriou 24 July 2016 06: 49
              -1
              And here nerds can not argue anything out loud, and put the cons.
              Thank you guys, you prove to me that it’s not in vain that I write. And then smarter readers will catch up, I hope.
              1. Dart2027
                Dart2027 24 July 2016 08: 23
                0
                Quote: murriou
                And here nerds can not argue anything out loud, and put the cons.

                Answered.
            2. Dart2027
              Dart2027 24 July 2016 08: 21
              0
              Quote: murriou
              Learn the story.

              Well, let's try.
              Quote: murriou
              The RPE was almost completely lost with the capture of Port Arthur and the destruction of the 1st TOE in December 1904.

              The loss of Moscow is not a loss of Russia, with the loss of the army both Moscow and Russia will be lost.
              The Japanese really managed to defeat the fleet, but on land things were far from so brilliant. The Russian army was retreating, but there was no need to talk about defeat, and Japan's resources were much less.

              After the battle for Liaoyang, while Russia continued to build up military force, the shortage of soldiers and ammunition on the Japanese side became more serious. Japan could still make up for the rank and file of soldiers, but it was already hard to make up for the shortage of officers, horses, and ammunition. The production capacity of weapons factories in Japan was no longer sufficient to meet the needs of expanded operations; the quality of the weapons deteriorated rapidly, and unexploded ordnance became routine at the front. Japan was able to satisfy the requirements for ammunition only by purchasing them from foreign manufacturers, such as Krupp in Germany. As for the personnel, the imperial headquarters composed 4 new field divisions and 48 battalions of the second echelon of reservists due to the extension of their service life, but there were not enough officers, however.

              After a “calculated retreat”, Russian forces replenished their military power on the Manchu border. On March 12, 1905, the tsar replaced Commander Kuropatkin with General Linevich. The course of affairs in Manchuria could change, according to Linevich, only a general battle. By that time, the Russian army was three times superior to the Japanese. According to the estimates of the Manchu army, in order to finally defeat its mighty enemy, Japan needed to increase its troops by six more divisions and receive an additional billion yen for military spending.
              In reality, the situation was such that it would take at least a year to successfully strengthen the troops on the extended front line. Moreover, the weapons and ammunition needed to ensure such a reinforcement could only be purchased abroad. It was clear that Japan could not really prepare for another general battle.

              (Okamoto S. "Japanese oligarchy in the Russian-Japanese war" http://providenie.narod.ru/01/1544.html#t19)
              1. murriou
                murriou 24 July 2016 09: 06
                0
                Quote: Dart2027
                The Japanese really managed to defeat the fleet

                Even twice. But it’s good that you acknowledge at least once - the majority of bakers turn like scallops in order not to acknowledge this fact. They are funny laughing

                Quote: Dart2027
                The Russian army was retreating, but there was no need to talk about defeat, and Japan's resources were much less.

                Unlike Kutuzov in 1812, Kuropatkin did not have a strategic plan for victory - he stupidly waited for reinforcements to come someday, and everything would be all right.

                In reality, the ratio of casualties to those killed and wounded during the Japanese attack on Russian field positions was 1: 1 (Mukden), taking into account the prisoners, Russian losses were much higher. When = Japanese = offensive! To = prepared = Russian positions!

                During the Japanese attack on VERY good by natural conditions or very thoroughly fortified Russian positions (Liaoyang, JinZhou, assaults of Port Arthur in isolation from the total) to one and a half to two Japanese losses;

                in the oncoming battle or alternate advance of the sides, the Russian losses turned out to be about three times more than the Japanese (!).

                Even in the battle of Yalu, the Russians managed to lose much more than the Japanese, who stormed the Russian positions on the high bank of the river, across the ford river.

                So think about what the Russian losses would be if the Japanese attacked the prepared positions of the Japanese - which was not the case during the entire RNE even once, but it would be required for the expected wagering.

                Quote: Dart2027
                it was hard to make up for the shortage of officers, horses, and ammunition.

                Yes, hard. But the Japanese coped with this.

                Did you know that there were similar problems on the Russian side? The cadre trained soldiers in the Russian army also ran out, and the sent "reserve", that is, the reservists were horribly low in training, discipline, and morale.

                Their combat capability was many times less than that of the veterans, and in fact almost all of the replenishment consisted of "spare".

                No wonder that after Mukden 500 thousand. the Russians sat behind a deeply echeloned defense and continued to strengthen it, not even hoping to advance - but 300 thousand. the Japanese believed that before them 1 million Russians, and suffered very much that with this balance of power they could not attack wink

                Quote: Dart2027
                the tsar replaced the commander Kuropatkin with General Linevich.

                Which turned out to be no better.

                Quote: Dart2027
                Okamoto S. "Japanese oligarchy in the Russo-Japanese War"

                Yes, I see, all the bakers of this Okamoto quote. There seems to be no one else wink
            3. Dart2027
              Dart2027 24 July 2016 08: 22
              0
              In a long report, which expressed his opinion, Yamagata calmly and realistically noted that since the enemy would never ask for peace, the war would continue for several more years. He claimed:
              “Before the start of the third stage of military operations, I would like to ask you to carefully discuss one thing, so that the planning of large-scale operations is always consistent with the [international] policy of the country. If there is any discrepancy between them, then military victories will not help achieve national goals ... Moreover, even after capturing Harbin and Vladivostok, we cannot say that we inflicted irreparable damage to the enemy. Even so, a stubborn adversary will not ask for peace. No, judging by experience, he will not ask for peace until we enter Moscow and St. Petersburg ... Will we advance or defend, in any case, the world is still far away. There are certain things that are worth considering especially deeply. Firstly, most of the enemy’s troops are still at home, and we have already exhausted our forces. Secondly, the enemy is not yet lacking in officers, and we have lost many since the beginning of the war, and it’s difficult to replace them ... There are still points worthy of attention: the construction of a double-track railway more than 100 ri in length between Mukden and Harbin to provide military supply; an increase in the number of guards of the elongated railway; the formation of as many troops as possible as quickly as possible ... To produce all of the above, we must naturally spend a huge amount of money. The burden of our people will become even harder ... In short, the third period of hostilities is of great importance, and if we make a mistake, our glorious victories will turn into nothing. Now we have to be careful. ”

              (Okamoto S. "Japanese oligarchy in the Russian-Japanese war" http://providenie.narod.ru/01/1544.html#t19)
              In Japan itself, the prospects for a continuation of the war were considered leading to an inevitable defeat. It is clear that Soviet historians preferred not to know about this.
              Quote: murriou
              The first revolutionary demonstrations began after the fall of Port Arthur.

              When it was urgently needed to make peace, so that the pendulum does not swing in the opposite direction.
              Quote: murriou
              The Japanese permanent victories in the REV and their final victory in the war became the impetus for the 1905 revolution, and not its consequence.

              And who paid for the "banquet"? An armed uprising requires a lot of money that does not fall from the sky?
              1. murriou
                murriou 24 July 2016 09: 15
                +1
                Quote: Dart2027
                In Japan itself, the prospects for a continuation of the war were considered leading to an inevitable defeat.

                The Japanese generally VERY strongly overestimated Russia, accustomed to considering it a great power.
                Even the whole course of the REV, with constant shameful defeats of the enemy, very slowly changed their assessment.

                Before the REV, they considered their chances of victory to be practically zero at all, and compared this to the despair of a samurai going into battle without hope of victory, but with a desire not to give in to the enemy without a fight.

                At the end of the RNE, having already won many times in all its battles, they doubted that they would win when the war of attrition continued, and they were right. But Russia was not even ready for such a war, and the Japanese did not know that.

                Quote: Dart2027
                Armed rebellion requires a lot of money,

                How much money did Khodynka demand and who paid it? Who organized Bloody Sunday and paid for it? What happened to the organization of the Lensky execution? wink
                1. Dart2027
                  Dart2027 24 July 2016 10: 41
                  0
                  Quote: murriou
                  But it's good that you acknowledge at least once
                  And where did I say the opposite?
                  Quote: murriou
                  Unlike Kutuzov in 1812, Kuropatkin did not have a strategic victory plan - he stupidly waited
                  Kutuzov also stupidly waited for the irregular and partisan detachments, together with the lack of replenishment of supplies, to exhaust Napoleon's army.
                  Quote: murriou
                  So think about what the Russian losses would be if the Russian attack on the prepared positions of the Japanese
                  Given that the Japanese ran out of ammunition and trained soldiers?
                  Quote: murriou
                  Do you know that there were similar problems on the Russian side? Personnel trained soldiers in the Russian army also ended
                  It is interesting how this could be, given that the personnel and the most combat-ready units were on the other side of the country, which was written about by the way?
                  Quote: murriou
                  Which turned out to be no better.
                  Because the country started an internal turmoil, and he did not have time to do something.
                  Quote: murriou
                  Yes, I see, all the bakers of this Okamoto quote
                  Which quotes the people who ruled Japan, which fiery fans of 1905 never do.
                  Quote: murriou
                  There seems to be no one else
                  Well, show your quotes to Japanese historians, not just slogans, but reports from the command of the Japanese army.
                  Quote: murriou
                  Even the whole course of the REV, with constant shameful defeats of the enemy, very slowly changed their assessment.
                  Maybe because they were dealing with this enemy and did not at all consider his defeat shameful, and their victories easy?
                  Quote: murriou
                  How much money did Khodynka demand and who paid it?
                  What happened to the organization of the Lensky execution?
                  And in what year was it and what does the war have to do with it?
                  Quote: murriou
                  Who organized Bloody Sunday and paid for it?
                  Those who paid for the supply of weapons armed militants and financed Japan. For reference, there is an unreasonable amount of evidence that the organizers knew very well that the tsar would not meet with anyone and still dragged the crowds of deceived workers to the Winter Palace. And then a classic of the genre with provocations.

                  In addition, I asked a simple question and would like to get a simple answer - who paid for the organization of the revolution in the Republic of Ingushetia?
                  1. murriou
                    murriou 24 July 2016 14: 29
                    0
                    Quote: Dart2027
                    Kutuzov also stupidly waited

                    You know the history of the war of 1812 and understand worse than the history of the REV.

                    Kutozov did not let Napoleon's army into the territory he had not ravaged.
                    Otherwise, the French would not care about all the partisans.

                    Quote: Dart2027
                    Given that the Japanese ran out of ammunition and trained soldiers?

                    To stop the Russian offensive would be enough. But for this, at first the Russians needed to find soldiers and ammunition in abundance.

                    Quote: Dart2027
                    It is interesting how this could be, given that the personnel and the most combat-ready units were on the other side of the country, which was written about by the way?

                    * sighing heavily *
                    1. On the other side of the country, the Russian army had its last combat experience much earlier.
                    2. From the other end of the country they still had to be delivered.
                    3. To expose the other end of the country also did not want to, and rightly so.

                    And in the Far East theater of operations, as a result, the quality of the Russian army with the knocking out of experienced soldiers fell even faster than the Japanese: those had a big war of 1894-95 and still a noticeable number of reservists with combat experience.

                    Quote: Dart2027
                    Because the country started an internal turmoil, and he did not have time to do something.

                    You are raving. Why did Linevich deal with the issues of inner turmoil - which, moreover, had not yet begun properly?
                    He had to deal with his theater, and he stayed as stupid as Kuropatkin before him.

                    Quote: Dart2027
                    Quote: murriou
                    Yes, I see, all the bakers of this Okamoto quote ...
                    Which quotes the people who ruled Japan, which fiery fans of 1905 never do.

                    You just do not know.

                    Japan was led by many people, and many cite them. In Russia, there were also many people, there are also many who cite them and also selectively, it’s just that more materials are available to us.

                    Now we don’t like to quote Ignatieff, who during the REV became disillusioned with the tsar and tsarism. Especially the ban on quoting those places where he writes about the low combat readiness of the Russian replenishment in the strategic nuclear forces, about the incompetence of the Russian generals and the discord between them, and the like.

                    We now like to quote Denikin, but only those places where he crucifies the sovereign in praise - and not those where he is disappointed in him, about the panic under Mukden, etc.

                    So this Okamoto writes what the bakers like. They quote him.
                    And what other Japanese historians wrote and are writing about to the bakers across the throat, so they are not quoted. So understandable?
                    1. Dart2027
                      Dart2027 24 July 2016 15: 38
                      +1
                      Quote: murriou
                      Kutozov did not let Napoleon's army into the territory he had not ravaged.
                      Before that, having exhausted her with a "small war"
                      Quote: murriou
                      To stop the Russian offensive would be enough.
                      Is there a source, or ordinary speculation?
                      Quote: murriou
                      sighing heavily

                      1. Did religious beliefs interfere with the experience gained from the database?
                      2. From the other end of the country they should have been delivered just in time for the offensive.
                      3. Did someone threaten him?
                      Quote: murriou
                      those had a great war of 1894-95 and a noticeable number of reservists with combat experience.

                      Are you talking about the war against then China? Yes it was an experience.
                      Quote: murriou
                      You are raving. Why did Linevich deal with the issues of inner turmoil - which, moreover, had not yet begun properly? He had to deal with his theater, and he stayed as stupid as Kuropatkin before him.
                      You are raving. When internal problems began, the king went to the conclusion of peace, although the military were against it and believed that it was necessary to continue preparations for the offensive.
                      Quote: murriou
                      And what other Japanese historians wrote and are writing about to the bakers across the throat, so they are not quoted. So understandable?
                      Well, quote me, what am I against? Cite historical works, with other references to the command of the Japanese army. I already asked you about it.
                      1. murriou
                        murriou 24 July 2016 22: 23
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Quote: murriou
                        Kutozov did not let Napoleon's army into the territory he had not ravaged.
                        Before that, having exhausted her with a "small war

                        However:
                        1. Kutuzov had a strategic plan and implemented it
                        2. Kutuzov didn’t allow Napoleon’s still very combat-ready army through Kaluga (take an interest in when and how the battles for Maloyaroslavets went)
                        3. Napoleon took active actions, but Kutuzov quickly blocked them every time.

                        And you lied here, as if Kutuzov was sitting and stupidly waiting for Napoleon’s army to end, and for him to appear - as Kuropatkin and Linevich did.

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Is there a source, or ordinary speculation?

                        Did I give you the names of the battles?
                        Did you give loss statistics in them?
                        You could challenge them? No, this is not close to you.
                        I can still bring it.

                        There was a battle on the Shahe River, an attempt to release Port Arthur, a more or less equal initiative in the beginning. 210 thousand Russian versus 170 thousand. the Japanese. The result of the battle - an attempt to release failed, the Russians stopped, then retreated.

                        The Japanese killed 3,9 thousand, no prisoners, no missing, about 15 thousand wounded and sick.

                        The Russians officially recognized as killed 5,1, etc. "missing" (ie, unregistered killed) 4,9 thousand, total killed about 10 thousand, wounded and shell-shocked more than 30 thousand - the ratio of losses confirms the number of killed about 10 thousand.

                        Now multiply this by two and add that the Japanese do not try to attack themselves, they only repel the offensive, so their losses are much smaller, and the Russians are much larger.

                        What do Russian prospects look like? That's the same.

                        However, you can refute me and give a real example of a successful Russian offensive in the REV. Huh? laughing

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        1. Did religious beliefs interfere with the experience gained from the database?

                        Not. They were disturbed by the fact that real combat experience could not be replaced by any stories.

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        2. From the other end of the country they should have been delivered just in time for the offensive.

                        And what, it = was preparing =? wink
                        Denikin, who was just then in the Russian army on fortified positions, did not notice any preparation other than discussions, but is it possible to advance at all. Ignatyev, who was an adjutant at the headquarters, also did not notice anything similar to preparing an offensive. laughing
                      2. goose
                        goose 25 July 2016 10: 36
                        0
                        Quote: murriou
                        What do Russian prospects look like? That's the same.

                        Without artillery, shells and machine guns - just like during the entire RVE - it does not matter. Even for picking rifle and Cossack units with rifles with ammunition, there were problems. In the photographs you can see a lot of Cossacks AT ALL WITHOUT RUNNING WEAPONS. How to fight and have equal losses under such conditions?
                        The economic collapse of the Republic of Ingushetia was evident at the time of the REV.
                      3. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 25 July 2016 10: 43
                        0
                        in fact, the Japanese Empire came to a collapse then, and by losses in manpower

                        and how did these permanently armed Cossacks end up without small arms?
                      4. murriou
                        murriou 25 July 2016 11: 00
                        -2
                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        how did these permanently armed Cossacks end up without small arms?

                        Have you tried to fight with a whip, a saber and a lance against an artillery battery or machine gun? This is how the Cossacks were armed "permanently".

                        Yes, even with a mosquito dragoon sample? Which not everyone had, but let it be with you?
                        I recommend that you gain invaluable experience. If you manage to survive.

                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        in fact, the Japanese Empire came to a collapse then, and by losses in manpower

                        Yea Yea. Such was powerless, so lost, so completely wrecked that it captured Sakhalin and settled Manchuria calmly, while the half-million Russian army was seated in fortified positions, and six months after Mukden did not dare to stick their nose out of them.
                      5. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 25 July 2016 12: 15
                        -1
                        and you didn’t try to change your ava to a stubborn fox?

                        the Cossack villages even included artillery batteries

                        all spar "about mukden" according to the manual?
                        Yes, it’s just like that - it was too small and overhang it
                        then after 1905 as much as 26 years until 1931 "lick their wounds."
                      6. murriou
                        murriou 25 July 2016 12: 51
                        0
                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        have you tried changing your ava to a stubborn fox?

                        Not. Stubborn is you, you don’t have to judge everyone by yourself. laughing

                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        the Cossack villages even included artillery batteries

                        I am waiting for a list of such batteries on the REV. More specifically.

                        By the way, what about the Cossacks about education? Ballistics training? What about their ability to fire from closed and closed positions?
                        Do you even understand what I am and what I’m talking about? repeat

                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        all spar "about mukden" according to the manual?

                        I don’t care if the moron likes or dislikes the reminder about Mukden and the Russian army’s flight from him - but it was as it was, and you can’t do anything about it.

                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        then after 1905 as much as 26 years until 1931 "lick their wounds"

                        I do not know how it is in your alternative chamber with an alternative history. And it’s not interesting to me.

                        But in the real world of normal people, Japan after the REV greatly overtook Russia in terms of economic and industrial development, in technology, and much earlier than in Russia it made its first battleships, and better armored ones.

                        And the Japanese "Fuso", which appeared simultaneously with the Russian "empresses", surpassed them in all respects by a head. Superdreadnought was, if anyone understands. This is when the Russian "battleships" were far behind the times during their construction.

                        Japan made turbine destroyers in 1909, one of the first in the world, 4 years earlier than Russia, a class of later "noviks", only much more seaworthy.
                        By the end of WWI, Japan received an order for the production of destroyers from France! If you don’t know anything, by the beginning of the 20th century, France was among the leading manufacturers of destroyers and destroyers! It's like getting a BMW order from the Germans!

                        Even after the WWII, Japan took the THIRD (!) Place in the world in shipbuilding, after England and the United States.

                        And who was such a moron to order the construction of warships in Russia, I do not know. She herself bought everything that she had of decent quality abroad.

                        Think about who licked your wounds. wink
                      7. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 25 July 2016 13: 01
                        0
                        The Cossacks had it all good! lol

                        armadillo destroyers ... maybe they made the first submarine and strategic bomber?

                        Tell your mistress to take you to the vet, maybe it's not you, but your Japanese worms bully
                      8. murriou
                        murriou 25 July 2016 13: 21
                        -1
                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        The Cossacks had it all good!

                        "mom klyanus"? wink And to prove?

                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        battleship destroyers.

                        You didn `t know, . I sympathize. crying
                        Well, at least start with Wikipedia or something, they even write for the poor poorly, but I named all the keywords.

                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        maybe they still made the first submarine and strategic bomber?

                        No, they didn’t. You’ve become something dull, a clown, you used to lighten up more fun. negative

                        But if you are hinting that Russia has done = strategic = bomber - then you have a deuce with a minus, even for the central train station you need to be able to use generally accepted definitions.

                        And the submarine was the first not Russian - first at the protoucre, laughing then the British and Americans.

                        But don’t be discouraged that you don’t look like a normal person - you are so funny. love
                      9. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 25 July 2016 13: 31
                        -1
                        Well, it's like you say ...

                        Didn't know what?

                        They didn’t do that either; English was a project. As well as the equipment of factories and shipyards, you cannot immediately step from the Middle Ages into the future.
                        the British did not have bombers before the Russians and the Japanese did not.

                        If you are trying to say that you didn’t, then put a deuce under her tail

                        At first (the first normal) among Russians - Dzhevetsky’s submarine, then with her blueprints one frogman fled to France, and began to squeeze out for war

                        You don’t look like a person at all (this is not about the photo), you don’t even have foxes anymore and the dog will do.
                      10. murriou
                        murriou 25 July 2016 14: 49
                        -1
                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        They didn’t do that either; English was a project.

                        The opinion of your chamber is especially interesting to the world community.

                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        the British had no bombers before the Russians

                        Russia is the birthplace of elephants, of course. But the first aerial bombardments were in 1911-1912, first among Italians in the Italo-Turkish war, then among the Bulgarians in the Balkan. First with English and French aircraft, which is typical.

                        And Russia at that time still could not make a single aircraft engine of its own, and the "Ilyusha", beloved by the crushers, flew on German "Argus".

                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        If you try to say you didn’t

                        The opinion of a dunno like you is especially important for the universe.

                        Where are your proofs? Cossacks on batteries in the REV, on their firing from closed positions, on a torpedo in the nets, on a testimonial seen by a destroyer, and on your other nonsense, any confirmation?

                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        Submarine Dzhevetskogo

                        Why do all patriots believe that they may not know world history at all? And what if they don’t know something, isn’t it? laughing

                        The first valid submarine model was recorded in England in the 17th century.
                        The first combat use, although unsuccessful at first, was noted 100 years before Dzhevetsky during the US War of Independence.
                        During the Napoleonic Wars, Fulton offered submarines to Napoleon, demonstrated the current model. But Napoleon decided that it was expensive and not necessary.
                        Successful combat use of submarines was in the US Civil War, it is about 20 years before Dzhevetsky.

                        As for practice, for the entire WWII, Russian submariners scored only losses, including rare stupidity of self-flooding.
                        At the same time, in the Baltic, 3-4 English (!) Submarines with English (!) Crews achieved results on large warships, like the entire Baltic Fleet, and on transport - many times more.

                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        You don’t look like a man at all

                        Not for you, * crossed out *, to judge.
                      11. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 25 July 2016 15: 00
                        -1
                        In the ward you

                        Proofs ask friends of alcoholics on the porch.

                        The first of practical value was the Dzhevetsky submarine
                        At the same time, German anti-submarine airships did not fly so well in the Baltic.

                        Ilya Muromets all flew what was good.
                        rolls your blank crunched in switzerland

                        Yes, everyone sees ...
      2. murriou
        murriou 25 July 2016 11: 06
        0
        There, the difference in the educational level of personnel still played very clearly.

        After the Meiji revolution, the Japanese introduced universal primary education, then secondary education, and a generation has grown up in this before the Sino-Japanese war, especially in the REV.

        And as a result, as you look at the detailed description of almost any land battle in the RJV: the Russians first roll out the cannons to an open position, because except for direct fire they can’t shoot. And to teach a quick ballistics who the hell turns out.

        And the Japanese cover them from closed positions at once. Other respectively. At least in Yala, at least under Shahe, at least at JinZhou - the same rake is everywhere.
      3. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 25 July 2016 12: 09
        -1
        Russian gunners were able to shoot only direct fire? Well, you obviously finished Japanese elementary / middle school ... lol
      4. murriou
        murriou 25 July 2016 13: 04
        -1
        Quote: Simpsonian
        Russian gunners were able to shoot only direct fire?

        And you didn’t know, ignoramus? Well, who would be surprised.

        The FIRST (!) In Russia EXPERIENCE (!) Of firing a field gun from a closed position was carried out by Captain Gobyato in May-June 1904.

        For this, he did not have a standard sight, and in all of Russia it did not - a sea goniometer was used as an ersatz sight.

        And until the end of the RNE, this methodology remained experimental for Russia, even for WWI it did not become sufficiently massively mastered.

        And the Japanese already in 1894-1895 massively mastered this technique, because they were taught at school things more useful than the law of God.

        Quote: Simpsonian
        Well, you obviously finished Japanese elementary / middle school ...

        Cooler. Soviet. And you, apparently, stopped at the central train station? laughing
      5. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 25 July 2016 13: 11
        0
        Such dregs can only be written by a chopper, or for choppers ...
        maybe he was the first for Gobyato himself, they rarely shoot at the sea from closed firing positions?

        It is clear that - in the Central School of Teaching, they taught better ... and the students there were better than normal, for whom the Law of God was not an empty phrase.
      6. murriou
        murriou 25 July 2016 13: 23
        -1
        Quote: Simpsonian
        Such dregs can only be written by a completely chopper

        Poor thing. You didn’t master Wikipedia in half an hour? I sympathize even more. crying
      7. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 25 July 2016 13: 37
        -2
        If it says the same, then this article is the same as you wrote ...
  • Simpsonian
    Simpsonian 25 July 2016 12: 35
    -1
    Or are you talking about the fact that before July 26, 1951 they found the first birch bark letter, there was no written language in Russia? bully
  • murriou
    murriou 25 July 2016 13: 24
    0
    Don’t be distracted, dunno. Start with the topic of REE / PMV and the development of technology in Russia and Japan, maybe you can find out at least something. laughing
  • Simpsonian
    Simpsonian 25 July 2016 13: 38
    0
    Was this birch bark letter in Japanese? belay
  • The comment was deleted.
  • murriou
    murriou 24 July 2016 22: 33
    +2
    Quote: Dart2027
    3. Did someone threaten him?

    Borders should always be kept covered.
    Even if no one wants to step on them when they are covered, it is worth exposing them, and immediately the temptation appears.

    Quote: Dart2027
    Are you talking about the war against then China? Yes it was an experience.

    Yes, experience. Moreover, on the same theater.

    The bakers are always distinguished by stunning ignorance in world history. However, they even know their own Pts selectively wink

    Meanwhile, the then China could well resist the French and repeatedly defeated them. He had a significant advantage over the Japanese in numbers, he also had English instructors, there were armadillos that the Japanese did not have then.

    The victory of Japan in 1895. wasn’t easy - it’s not like punitive action of Russians and Europeans in 1900. against lightly armed rebels.
    The Japanese defeated Russia in the REV more easily than the Chinese 10 years before.

    Quote: Dart2027
    the military were against and believed that preparations for the offensive should continue.

    There was no unanimity among the military, and there was no real preparation for the offensive either — only trepidation.
    After Mukden, the Russian army for six months sat in fortified positions, not showing any initiative and NOT conducting preparations for the offensive.

    And "exhausted by war" and "ready for anything for the sake of peace" laughing the Japanese during this time took Sakhalin and mastered Manchuria. wink
  • Simpsonian
    Simpsonian 25 July 2016 00: 07
    -1
    In 1905, aviation was still in its infancy, in the absence of a fleet in the Far East without airplanes covering small landing assets from enemy ships and suppressing Japanese coastal defense by stormtroopers, it was unrealistic to land on the Japanese Islands,

    The Russian Empire was quite capable of throwing Japan out of Korea and from China,
    Russian commanders were waiting for replenishment for this, when the "great powers" waited and began to threaten to internationalize the conflict, as it was before in the Crimean War.
  • murriou
    murriou 25 July 2016 08: 59
    0
    Quote: Simpsonian
    The Russian Empire was quite capable of throwing Japan out of Korea and from China

    From Manchuria - maybe, but for this it would be necessary to have 3-4 times superiority in numbers and weapons, and high morale, which after Mukden completely fell.

    This RI did not have in 1905. even in a reasonably foreseeable future.

    To throw the Japanese out of Korea, even all this was not enough: having monopoly use of the fleet, the Japanese could block the isthmus in the Yalu area and grind even many times superior enemy forces.

    Especially the same with the Liaodong Peninsula - he would certainly have remained with the Japanese. Not to mention Sakhalin.

    Quote: Simpsonian
    the "great powers" began to threaten to internationalize the conflict, as was the case in the Crimean War.

    Yah. Can you justify this version?
  • Simpsonian
    Simpsonian 25 July 2016 10: 29
    -1
    the Japanese then were almost nowhere except Manchuria in China and were,
    from Korea too ...

    the isthmus in the area of ​​the demarcation line, along the Yalu is the Korean-Chinese border

    block it turned out only to the Americans against the Chinese volunteers using aviation

    the strait on Sakhalin at its narrowest point is blocked by artillery.

    You can see for yourself how "aggressive Russia" was then hounded by "the whole world"
    versions about the Crimean War are interested in?
  • murriou
    murriou 25 July 2016 11: 24
    0
    Quote: Simpsonian
    the strait on Sakhalin at its narrowest point is blocked by artillery

    Modern wink , you forgot to add. And that is not so much.

    Tatar Strait at the narrowest point of 7,3 km, three-inch arr. 1902 hits 8,5km. Well, the beach will spoil on the other side, what's next?

    Suppose you can work hard for several days and put a battery of 120-mm Kane guns near the shore. And the LMS to them in the kit.
    These hit up to 11 km. Not that it really changed anything.

    And the Japanese will drive a gunboat or battleship, and from a distance of 12-14 km they will cover the battery leaning out to the shore with 12 "shells from a safe distance for themselves.
    In order to deliver something more serious, more than one month has to be worked, and at the same time, you can’t close the entire coast anyway - there will not be enough guns.
  • Simpsonian
    Simpsonian 25 July 2016 12: 23
    -1
    The then even-three-inch is "modern"? and then that shore will be occupied by the Cossacks on ordinary boats and then they will develop an offensive deep into Sakhalin

    "and the gunboat" just drown from the shore that your British dreadnought in the Dardanelles lol
    It’s not necessary to close everything - just block this crossing point

    and generally dear, this prog freezes for the winter wassat you just had to wait for her laughing

    But the Laperouse Strait, alas, the then artillery did not overlap (only super long-range) and did not freeze for the winter.
  • murriou
    murriou 25 July 2016 13: 33
    0
    Quote: Simpsonian
    Cossacks will occupy that coast on ordinary boats and then develop an offensive inland Sakhalin

    Thanks, have fun laughing So how do you, clown, imagine the artillery support that cannot get farther than 1 km from the coast? Against the enemy who is sitting there with a whole battery 12-15 km from yours?

    Quote: Simpsonian
    "and the gunboat" will simply drown from the shore

    Drowning must first be grown tongue

    Quote: Simpsonian
    what is your british dreadnought in the dardanelles

    Yes, confusing Sakhalin with the Dardanelles is a high-class clowning good

    Quote: Simpsonian
    this prodiv freezes for the winter just had to wait

    Anwar Sadat also lured Jews into the interior of the Sinai Peninsula, like Kutuzov, and then he waited for frosts. laughing

    Only Russia did not have an extra six months for such entertainment, and it was a pleasure to cover the enemy’s approach on ice with art. Googled about A. Nevsky or something wink
  • Simpsonian
    Simpsonian 25 July 2016 13: 53
    -2
    You don’t get it ... don’t get distracted by the fact that the Tatar Strait freezes for the winter! lol

    if anything grows like that for you - confused with a gunboat on a fonet of dreadnoughts who have raked there ...

    apparently not the climate, it’s clear now from which country of citrus fruits you stink ...
    to break ice on the entire Tatar Strait, there wouldn’t be enough shells,
    Nevsky is your fist afraid, right? I didn’t know that he performed at the Sinai.
  • murriou
    murriou 25 July 2016 13: 56
    0
    Quote: Simpsonian
    you don’t be distracted from the fact that the Tatar Strait freezes for the winter!

    What is the thickness of the ice cover? Or didn’t you even teach such words in your central vocational school?

    And if you still know how to think at least somehow, then you should take into account the prompt about A. Nevsky wink
  • Simpsonian
    Simpsonian 25 July 2016 14: 00
    -2
    What is the ice cover and coastline?

    go to your "Nevsky", maybe he will teach you to box, take care of it all the same, as there is nothing to Klitschko ...

    They wouldn’t have accepted you in the central vocational school - they would have sat in the shop all the time. lol
  • murriou
    murriou 25 July 2016 14: 18
    +1
    I feel sorry for you, dunno. You only know how to spray with drool, but you don’t know human words.

    Okay. Here's a hint for wretchedness. In the order of educational program.

    The thickness of the ice can reach up to 1,5 m at the narrowest point of the Tatar Strait, which is called the Nevelsky Strait and has a length of up to 56 km with a channel depth of at least 7,2 m.

    A projectile 280mm or 305mm pierces about a meter of unreinforced concrete, covered with soil. The ice will break easily, not even one and a half meters, but two with a tail.
    After that, a hydraulic shock occurs from a projectile explosion in water.

    You haven’t heard such a thing in your PPS, so I’ll tell you: 20-30 meters from the place of the explosion all the ice flies into the air along with everything that was on it. And falls down.
    Up to 50 meters - just cracking into pieces, also not bad.

    Moreover: if the ice has not reached 1,5 meters, but only up to 1 meter or less has grown, then he does not need such heavy shells, three inches is enough.
    The distance of the hydraulic shock will be less, of course, but the rate of fire at the three-inch is 10-12 rounds per minute.

    And one battery manages to arrange for all attackers an ice-swimming session faster than they run half the strait.
    But you can put more than one, the Japanese had several hundred of them, and in all the battles of the RJV, Japanese artillery had an overwhelming advantage over the Russian.

    And Alexander Nevsky was glorious in Russia because he drowned German knights on Lake Peipsi. Those too, like you, were poorly witted, they decided that if there is ice, then you can ride on it with heavy cavalry.

    Well, so many clever words fit in your little head? wink
  • Simpsonian
    Simpsonian 25 July 2016 14: 36
    -1
    On your monitor, no one else's saliva except yours can be, no need to look for the "hand of Moscow" in everything lol
    In winter, more than half of the coastline of Sakhalin facing the continent freezes.

    In TsPSh such stupid non-Russian "gapons" as you are not kept, that's why you are here. Go further with "Nevsky" box ...
  • murriou
    murriou 25 July 2016 15: 00
    0
    Well, then your proofs, where's your nonsense? And then tryndet, like you, do not toss the bags.
  • Simpsonian
    Simpsonian 25 July 2016 15: 05
    0
    Repeat - "proofs" ask your neighbors alcoholics on the porch when they will be released from the durkee on leave.
    Maybe they will tell you that the mammoths are elephants, and explain that from the closed positions of the cannons during the siege of fortresses they shot back in the Middle Ages ...

    Go league to shine, you to the vet.
  • murriou
    murriou 25 July 2016 15: 08
    0
    That is, you admitted. that you are 3,14 grudge. Well, that has long been noticeable. All walk, sick.
  • Simpsonian
    Simpsonian 25 July 2016 15: 13
    -2
    Those. then you signed it ... for the horizon from the ships you still didn’t know how to shoot, and on land artillery was in full swing for a long time.
  • murriou
    murriou 25 July 2016 15: 41
    +1
    What does “beyond the horizon” have to do with it?
    Where did you get the torpedo in the networks and the ghost of the destroyer during the Gull incident?
    Where is the list of Cossack batteries in the REV?
    Where is the rest of your nonsense confirmation?
  • Simpsonian
    Simpsonian 25 July 2016 15: 45
    0
    whether the Cossacks simply had artillery batteries.
    you can not repeat everything has long understood that you are sick ... "to do with" - you do not understand.
    from where you didn’t notice
    go for a walk, piss on slippers, professor Preobrazhensky, and change the photo lol
  • murriou
    murriou 25 July 2016 11: 27
    0
    Quote: Simpsonian
    You can see for yourself how "aggressive Russia" was then hounded by "the whole world"

    After the Gull incident, it’s no wonder — then Russia was very strong and very stupid. Could be worse consequences.

    But the attitude of attitude, and what documents you can show about the ultimatum of Russia to the state. level? Find - wait for the Nobel.

    Quote: Simpsonian
    versions about the Crimean War are interested in?

    Yes, about the Crimean I already know. Well, are we talking about a RYA like, no?
  • Simpsonian
    Simpsonian 25 July 2016 12: 26
    -1
    The Russian squadron was then attacked by Japanese destroyers just received from English shipyards, and hysteria in the press began long before that.
    This is not our award ...

    What do you know about Crimean? ... Which documents?
  • murriou
    murriou 25 July 2016 13: 29
    0
    Quote: Simpsonian
    The Russian squadron was then attacked by Japanese destroyers

    The Russians tried to lie to their excuse, but it didn’t really agree on dates and times. There were no Japanese destroyers there, and they would not have been engaged in such nonsense in foreign waters.

    And when the lies didn’t work, we immediately covered up this topic. There was nothing, nothing.
  • Simpsonian
    Simpsonian 25 July 2016 13: 43
    -2
    It’s you lying here about Russians, I’m not talking! These were neutral waters.
  • murriou
    murriou 25 July 2016 13: 52
    0
    You, poor thing, calm down, drink your pills or something, the doctors should have provided you. If not supplied - ask them for an addition.

    1. There is an official document with the conclusions of the international commission that investigated this case.
    I understand that they were not told about this in your central vocational school, but you start with primers, for which I advise you again. * emoticon with a rake is missing *

    2. None of the Japanese destroyer in the area of ​​the Gull incident during the passage of the Russian squadron was not.

    3. ALL hits on Russian ships turned out to be from Russian ships. Exclusively.

    4. ALL damaged vessels, except for the Russians themselves, turned out to be peaceful fishing vessels.

    5. In Russia itself, they quickly realized that they were mistaken, and sharply fell silent about the destroyers. Although some clowns still dig this stewardess wink

    Quote: Simpsonian
    These were neutral waters.

    Yes. So what? For the Japanese, as well as the Russians, they were ALIEN waters.

    And if the Japanese really did something like that, they would have raked in the same scandal that the Russians really got.
  • Simpsonian
    Simpsonian 25 July 2016 13: 57
    -2
    Which case, with the MH-17?

    even found a torpedo in the nets ... and the battered destroyer was seen by fishermen

    There’s nothing to write about for Russia, you’re not from there laughing

    They didn’t rake anything, but tell the kibbutzniks about the "alien waters" when they pour water in your ward in the pool ...
  • murriou
    murriou 25 July 2016 14: 23
    +1
    Quote: Simpsonian
    even found a torpedo in the nets ... and the battered destroyer was seen by fishermen

    Proof in the studio. Why at that time no one knew this and the international commission slammed such facts? Maybe there wasn’t enough opium for inspiration? wink
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Simpsonian
    Simpsonian 25 July 2016 14: 37
    -1
    The studio has already moved to another country, where are you now ...
  • murriou
    murriou 25 July 2016 15: 03
    +1
    That is, you admit that you can’t confirm your whole tryndezh with anything. So? wink
  • Simpsonian
    Simpsonian 25 July 2016 15: 06
    -1
    trynde at you, you confirm ...
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Simpsonian
    Simpsonian 25 July 2016 00: 07
    +1
    In 1905, aviation was still in its infancy, in the absence of a fleet in the Far East without airplanes covering small landing assets from enemy ships and suppressing Japanese coastal defense by stormtroopers, it was unrealistic to land on the Japanese Islands,

    The Russian Empire was quite capable of throwing Japan out of Korea and from China,
    Russian commanders were waiting for replenishment for this, when the "great powers" waited and began to threaten to internationalize the conflict, as it was before in the Crimean War.
  • murriou
    murriou 24 July 2016 14: 33
    -2
    Quote: Dart2027
    what year was it and what does the war have to do with it?

    Despite the fact that tsarism itself was especially diligent and particularly successful in discrediting tsarism. Without any outside payments.

    Quote: Dart2027
    Those who paid for the supply of weapons armed militants and financed Japan

    Once again: when it came to delivering weapons to the militants, the REV was ALREADY in fact completely and hopelessly lost.
    All the rest of your conspiracy theories after this are not worth attention.

    Quote: Dart2027
    nemere preserved evidence that the organizers knew perfectly

    at the same time, the organizers were under the control of the tsarist secret police, and not foreign intelligence services wink

    Quote: Dart2027
    In addition, I asked a simple question and would like to get a simple answer - who paid for the organization of the revolution in the Republic of Ingushetia?

    To a large extent - tsarism itself. There were other sources, but this has nothing to do with the issue of the REV.

    I understand that you want = simple = answers. I sympathize. wink

    And besides - even though you don’t say it, you want the answers to be pleasant to you and to fuel your admiration for Russia-which-we. Sorry for even more laughing

    And I want the answers of the faithful, that’s the difference bully
    1. Dart2027
      Dart2027 24 July 2016 15: 48
      0
      Quote: murriou
      Despite the fact that tsarism itself was especially diligent and particularly successful in discrediting tsarism. Without any outside payments.

      I am aware of internal problems, only what did they have to do with the war?
      Quote: murriou
      Once again: when it came to delivering weapons to the militants, the REV was ALREADY in fact completely and hopelessly lost. All the rest of your conspiracy theories after this are not worth attention.

      I asked a simple question and I want to get a simple answer - who paid for the organization of the revolution in RI?
      About "hopeless loss" you answered above.
      Quote: murriou
      at the same time, the organizers were under the control of the tsarist secret police, and not foreign intelligence services
      That is, the secret police organized a procession to the king, forgetting to inform him? What is it like?
      If everything was organized in order to increase the prestige of the autocracy, then the king had to meet with the people. Doesn't fit.
      But if the goal was to cause unrest with shooting, then everything is logical.
      Quote: murriou
      I understand that you want = simple = answers. I sympathize. And besides, even though you don’t say it, you want your answers to be pleasant and to warm up your admiration
      revolution, which in fact was just a special operation to defeat RI in the war. I sympathize even more.
      And I want the answers of the faithful, that’s the difference.
      1. murriou
        murriou 24 July 2016 16: 37
        -1
        Quote: Dart2027
        I am aware of internal problems, only what did they have to do with the war?

        Well, it’s you who weave the internal problems of RI to the REV, and not me.
        On the contrary, I persistently remind you that the REV was lost BEFORE the 1905 revolution unfolded.

        Quote: Dart2027
        About "hopeless loss" you answered above.

        And what do you think is the answer there? wink

        You do not know and do not want to know the detailed course of the REV. You are the place of consideration of the REV itself constantly climb into some delusional conspiratorial fantasies.

        And I can give you a detailed analysis for each major battle and show that the Russian army ALL THIS TIME was helpless and wretched. There could be no acting out of the war in 1905, without any dependence on the internal affairs of Russia.

        Yes, Japan was running out of power. But there were!
        To repel the Russian offensive, if that were to take place, this should have been enough.

        And after continuous defeats, Russia had a deep decline in morale in the army. The same Denikin admits this, a well-known agent of the Bolsheviks laughing - Being himself for the continuation of the war, he honestly admits that on this issue he was not supported by many colleagues.

        Quote: Dart2027
        That is, the secret police organized a procession to the king, forgetting to inform him? What is it like?

        This is the desire to deal with the "cattle" without straining E.I.V. dirty details. The secret police did not calculate the subsequent reaction.

        Quote: Dart2027
        revolution, which in fact was just a special operation

        Yeah, yeah, hundreds of thousands of participants were all polls bought. Waiting for a financial report on such a large-scale hiring. And explain why the agents you bought couldn’t just be outbid.

        Quote: Dart2027
        with the aim of defeating RI in the war.

        In a war that was clearly lost before the deployment of this "special operation", yeah laughing
        1. Dart2027
          Dart2027 24 July 2016 18: 41
          +1
          Quote: murriou
          Well, it’s you who weave the internal problems of RI to the REV, and not me.
          Was Khotyn in 1905? But when was Lensky shooting? Learn the story
          Quote: murriou
          And what do you think is the answer there?
          In a war that was clearly lost before the deployment of this "special operation"
          Yes, Japan was running out of power. But there were! To repel the Russian offensive, if it were to take place, this should have been enough

          Okamoto S. "The Japanese oligarchy in the Russo-Japanese War" //providenie.narod.ru/01/1544.html#t19.
          In Japan itself, the prospects for a continuation of the war were considered leading to an inevitable defeat. It is clear that Soviet historians preferred not to know about this.
          Quote: Dart2027
          Well, quote me, what am I against? Cite historical works, with other references to the command of the Japanese army. I already asked you about it.

          Quote: murriou
          You do not know and do not want to know the detailed course of the REV. You are the place of consideration of the REV itself constantly climb into some delusional conspiratorial fantasies.

          You do not know and do not want to know the detailed course of the REV. You are the place of consideration of the REV itself constantly climb into some delusional ideological fantasies.
          Quote: murriou
          This is the desire to deal with the "cattle" without straining E.I.V. dirty details. The secret police did not calculate the subsequent reaction.
          That is, making a decision for the king without notifying him? You yourself are not funny? But if the goal was to cause unrest with shooting, then everything is logical.
          Quote: Dart2027
          Yeah, yeah, hundreds of thousands of participants were all polls bought. Waiting for a financial report on such a large-scale hiring. And explain why the agents you bought couldn’t just be outbid.

          I asked a simple question and I want to get a simple answer - who paid for the organization of the revolution in RI? At whose expense did revolutionaries live abroad for years, who bought weapons, trained militants, etc.?
          1. murriou
            murriou 25 July 2016 06: 41
            -1
            Quote: Dart2027
            You do not know and do not want to know the detailed course of the REV. You are the place of consideration of the REV itself constantly climb into some delusional ideological fantasies.


            Examples please.

            All the facts and facts on the REV, so far named here - are named by me.

            All conspiratorial nonsense - brought by you.
            Point your finger at what you call "ideological fantasies". With a quote from MY text, and not your fantasies about it.

            We are waiting wink
          2. Dart2027
            Dart2027 25 July 2016 20: 07
            0
            Quote: murriou
            All the facts and facts on the REV, so far named here - are named by me.

            And all the examples of what the Japanese generals themselves wrote by me. Will you finally give examples of "other historians" about whom you spoke?
            Quote: murriou
            Point your finger at what you call "ideological fantasies". With a quote from MY text, and not your fantasies about it.
            Please
            Quote: murriou
            REV was ALREADY in fact completely and hopelessly lost
            Completely and hopelessly lost - this is when the enemy captured at least half the country and destroyed (killed, or captured) the entire army. Defeated in the historiography of the USSR, defeats of this kind, to put it mildly, did not pull.
            Quote: murriou
            After Mukden, the Russian army for six months sat in fortified positions, not showing any initiative and NOT conducting preparations for the offensive.
            and calmly building up strength. The Russian army lost 90 thousand people (killed, wounded and prisoners) out of 350 thousand, and the Japanese army lost 75 thousand people (killed, wounded and prisoners) out of 300 thousand. At the time of the conclusion of the peace, the forces of the Republic of Ingushetia were about 500000, while the nuclear forces had 300000. You really wanted numbers?
            Quote: murriou
            during this time they took Sakhalin and mastered Manchuria.
            What no one bothered them.
            Quote: murriou
            All conspiratorial nonsense - brought by you
            I asked a simple question - who paid for the revolution and the revolutionaries? There was no answer. However, fans of any revolution, then, that now on the Maidan, they hate this question.
            Quote: murriou
            Even if no one wants to step on them when they are covered, it is worth exposing them, and immediately the temptation appears.
            True? But Stalin, transferring troops near Moscow, did not know about this. And by the way, who could attack in 1905?
            Quote: murriou
            The bakers are always distinguished by stunning ignorance in world history. However, they even know their own Pts selectively. Meanwhile, the then China could well resist the French and repeatedly defeated them. He had a significant advantage over the Japanese in numbers, he also had English instructors, there were armadillos that the Japanese did not have then.
            Then why did China actually become a colony and what were its own productive resources? However, you do not know the story.
  • Simpsonian
    Simpsonian 25 July 2016 15: 33
    0
    Quote: murriou
    Tsarism itself was particularly diligent and particularly successful in discrediting tsarism. Without any outside payments.


    Quote: murriou
    The Russians tried to lie to their excuse
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 25 July 2016 15: 37
      0
      one of the "self-flooding" by the way was when neutral swedish boat peacefully changed course and rammed the Russian submarine Som. she was found recently when they were looking for another "Russian".

      what an all-embarrassing little stupid little thing you are, and your manuals are outdated ...
  • murriou
    murriou 23 July 2016 18: 18
    -3
    This is a lie for the librarians and monarchists in common.
  • aba
    aba 23 July 2016 13: 44
    +7
    The article is already two years old, but as practice shows, this does not remove its relevance.
  • iliitchitch
    iliitchitch 23 July 2016 13: 57
    +16
    "Ukrainian historians", just laugh.
    =, um, somewhat used women. When will this brothel be shut down? And, again, we subscribe. And stupidity is contagious. I have a friend, he worked as a nurse for two years in Kashchenko, he was fired with a diagnosis of induced schizophrenia. And I was all surprised at first by the strangeness in behavior, but it looks like ...
    1. Monarchist
      Monarchist 23 July 2016 17: 38
      +2
      Cool comment! To the very point
  • Starik72
    Starik72 23 July 2016 14: 10
    +6
    WE ordinary people of the former USSR know about this. And these crazy Maydauns from Ukraine need to prove it, though this is useless and tantamount to writing against the wind.
  • tasha
    tasha 23 July 2016 14: 13
    +1
    There can be no talk of any special genocide of the Ukrainian people. Hunger 1932-1933 was the result of the course taken on industrialization and the new agricultural policy. All regions of the USSR suffered from hunger.

    Outside Ukraine, in our opinion, from 1932 to 1933 million people died, or maybe more, from starvation in 4 - 5. Thus, there is every reason to definitely say that the famine of that period was the result of Stalin's anti-peasant policy regime, its miscalculations and inhumane, criminal measures against the peasantry, which led to the collapse of the country's agriculture and famine.
    RIA Novosti http://ria.ru/analytics/20081114/155083905.html#ixzz4FEEwiSzQ
    1. BMP-2
      BMP-2 23 July 2016 15: 20
      +4
      I completely agree with the first part of your statement, but with the fact that the famine of 1932-1933 was the result of a course towards industrialization and a new agrarian policy ... No.

      During these years, there was famine in European countries. Is there also the USSR pursuing a course towards industrialization? fool

      Ps: view RIA Novosti - well, not a source of reliable information, from the word "in general"!
      1. tasha
        tasha 23 July 2016 15: 56
        0
        Hunger 1932-1933 has already been discussed at VO
        I will copy from previous

        What is the reason for such a sharp drop in productivity - because the weather conditions 1931 – 1932, though less favorable than the previous ones, were by no means catastrophic? And again, everything is extremely simple. As a result of collectivization, a catastrophic decline in the level of agricultural technology occurred. The decline in the number of live and productive livestock, the spontaneous migration of the rural population predetermined a sharp decline in the quality of basic agricultural work. Bread resources for industrial centers were extracted, including due to feed grain. As a result, in the winter of 1931 / 32, the sharpest reduction in the number of livestock and productive livestock since the beginning of collectivization took place. There was nothing to feed socialized cattle. According to the grain balance drawn up by Davis and Whitcroft, in the 1932 year, half the grain was consumed by livestock as compared to the 1930. 6,6 million horses fell - a fourth of the still remaining draft cattle, the rest of the cattle was extremely depleted. The total number of horses decreased in the USSR from 32,1 million in 1928 to 17,3 million in 1933.

        A catastrophic consequence was the decision of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks and the Council of People's Commissars of the 30 of July 1931 of the year “On the Deployment of Socialist Livestock Breeding”, which in practice meant a banal requisition of cattle from peasant farmsteads, which, by design, probably should have led to a reduction in labor costs by livestock maintenance and more efficient use of draft power of horses and bulls. In response, a significant portion of the livestock was simply destroyed by the peasants. From the 107,1 million sheep and goats that were at the beginning of the 1930 of the year, to the 1933, only a third remained, pigs and cattle - about half or less (see graph 2).

        The sharp urbanization also did not pass without a trace. Although there was agrarian overpopulation in tsarist Russia and the USSR of the 1920s and, in theory, a smooth outflow of the rural population to cities should not have a catastrophic effect on the productivity of the village, the problem was that the most able-bodied mass of healthy and young people fled to the cities peasants - first from fear of dispossession, then from collective farm poverty in search of a better life and, finally, from gradually approaching hunger. In addition, about 2 million peasants who fell under dispossession were evicted to remote areas of the country.

        So, by the beginning of the spring sowing season of 1932, the village came up with a serious lack of draft power and a sharply worsened quality of labor resources. At the same time, the dream of "plowing the land with tractors" was still a dream. The total capacity of the tractors reached the target for the 1933 year only seven years later, the combines were just starting to be used.



        As a result, the fields sown with bread in the 1932 year in Ukraine, the North Caucasus and other areas were overgrown with weeds. Even parts of the Red Army were sent to weeding. But this did not save, and with a fairly tolerable biological harvest of 1931 / 32, sufficient to prevent mass starvation, grain losses during its harvest grew to unprecedented proportions. In 1931, according to the data of NKRK, more than 15 million tons were lost during harvesting (about 20% of the gross grain harvest), in 1932 the losses were even greater. In Ukraine, as already noted above, up to 40% of the crop remains at the root, in the Lower and Middle Volga, losses reached 35,6% of the total gross grain harvest. It is precisely in this, in returning to the cave level of agricultural technology that occurred in just two years of active state intervention in the rural economy, that the causes of mass starvation in the Soviet village lie.
  • bubalik
    bubalik 23 July 2016 14: 19
    +5
    ,,, I look old mosquitoes from Ukraine again participate in our discussions, and it pleases good
  • tasha
    tasha 23 July 2016 14: 39
    +6
    I recommend reading the speech of IV Stalin "On work in the countryside" 11.01.1933/XNUMX/XNUMX.

    Stalin ends his speech with the words:

    There is no such powerful and authoritative power in the world as our Soviet power. There is no such powerful and authoritative party in the world as our Communist Party. No one bothers and cannot prevent us from conducting the collective farm business as [c.231] the collective farm interests, the state’s interests demand it. And if we do not always manage to conduct the collective farm business as Leninism requires it, if we often make a number of gross, unforgivable mistakes, say, through grain procurement, then we are to blame, and only we are.
    We are guilty that we did not discern the negative aspects of the collective farm trade in bread and made a number of gross errors.
    We are guilty of the fact that a whole series of our party organizations broke away from collective farms, rested on their laurels and surrendered to the elements of gravity.
    We are guilty of the fact that a number of our comrades are still overestimating the collective farms as a form of mass organization, not realizing that the matter is not so much in the form itself, but in taking on the collective farm leadership and knocking out anti-Soviet elements from the collective farm leadership.
    It is our fault that we did not make out the new situation and did not understand the new tactics of the class enemy, operating in a silent glanders.


    To single out as the reasons for the famine of 1932-1933 the need to destroy the Ukrainians by the "Holodomor" in one case, or to blame everything exclusively on the "enemies of the communists" in the other is paranoia. And experts of the relevant medical institutions should deal with the supporters of both versions.
    1. 34 region
      34 region 23 July 2016 17: 58
      +2
      Tasha! 14.39. Interesting excerpt! Especially phrases: No one bothers and cannot prevent us from conducting the collective farm business, We are to blame! Compared to modern rhetoric, the global crisis does not give us! The Holodomor, the same crisis. But he was overcome by efforts. And today we stupidly go with the flow. hi
  • yuriy55
    yuriy55 23 July 2016 14: 40
    +4
    These lines reminded the love of today's leader of the Western world of the USA for a new Russia:
    The leader of the Western world, England broke off economic relations with the USSR, pushing him into the abyss of hunger. Discussing the question of grain procurement at a meeting of the Politburo, Stalin admitted that, according to his information, the Soviet Union would be denied this.


    Absolute plagiarism and the same rake ...
  • mag nit
    mag nit 23 July 2016 14: 41
    +4
    Hohlomor is just around the corner.
  • Palch
    Palch 23 July 2016 14: 42
    -7
    The article is absolute nonsense !!!!
    1. Monarchist
      Monarchist 23 July 2016 18: 52
      -2
      What is the nonsense: what was the famine of 1932-1933? That the Bolsheviks, having realized it, began to correct their flaws? Or maybe it’s nonsense that the maydauns are raging?
  • alavrin
    alavrin 23 July 2016 14: 45
    +5
    The topic of the Holodomor in Ukraine is generally an interesting evolution. Over the past couple of years, the emphasis in the local media on this topic has gradually shifted to the fact that, like, it was the Russians who decided to lime the Ukrainians and specially invented the Holodomor to liberate the lands of the same Donbass and settle there.
    And this nonsense is stubbornly and persistently driven into the heads of young animals.
    In a word, everything is proceeding according to the Rwandan scenario, as it may sound today. (Although everyone would have recognized even the hypothetical possibility of a war in Donbass in 1985, and not even in 1985, but in 2005, for example, as wild) And, by the way, even the terminology is the same. In Rwanda, journalist Leon Mugocera on the Thousand Hills radio called Tutsis insects that need to be destroyed, and Poroshenko's advisor Biryukov also calls the Russians on his Facebook ...
  • Aleksander
    Aleksander 23 July 2016 14: 47
    -3
    the kulaks rebelled against the initially voluntary collective farms, using all the levers of influence it had. The authorities responded by dispossessing and continuous collectivization. In fact, in 1929-1933 years. there was a civil war in the country around collective farms

    Yeah, just the opposite.
    Just the facts:

    1. "Resolution of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) On the rate of collectivization and measures of state assistance to collective farm construction" from 5 January 1930 - provides for continuous collectivization major cereal areas maximum until the spring of 1932. It was in these areas that the terrible famine of 1932-33 broke out — such a "accidental" coincidence.
    2. Total through 25 days (i.e. no rebellions yet) January 30 comes out Resolution of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) "On the eviction of the dispossessed"
    Top secret
    2.1. To abolish in the areas of complete collectivization in relation to individual peasant farms the laws on the lease of land and the use of hired labor in agriculture
    2.2. Confiscate the means of production, livestock, farm and residential buildings, processing plants, feed and seed stocks from the kulaks of these regions.
    2,3. take the following measures regarding fists:
    a) the first category - the counterrevolutionary kulak asset immediately liquidated by imprisonment in concentration camps
    b) the second category should comprise the remaining elements of the kulak asset, especially from the richest kulaks and semi-landowners who are subject to deportation to remote areas of the region;
    c) the third category includes fists left within the district, which are subject to resettlement in new areas allocated to them outside the collective farms.
    2,3. To send in the okrug of the Northern Territory - 70 thousand families, Siberia - 50 thousand families, Urals - 20-25 thousand families, Kazakhstan - 20-25 thousand Areas of expulsion should be uninhabited and sparsely populated areas
    2,4. The funds of the deported fists are also confiscated, leaving, however, in the hands of the fist a certain minimum amount (up to 500 rubles per family)

    Those. Soviet citizens NOTHING innocent before the country and the law completely robbed without trial , partly killed, partly exiled to death in uninhabited places. And all-OWN SECRET!
    The property stolen from citizens (175 million rubles) became the material base of collective farms, such a simple way.
    Is it any wonder that people, due to hopelessness, staged uprisings and resisted their own annihilation?

    Cattle and horses were slaughtered because forcibly socialized and people tried to save: Owls secret Information from the OGPU Information Department on the mass sale and slaughter of livestock based on materials on December 15, 1929, 22.12.1929 Mr.
    From collectivization and dispossession ran for 1928-32, 14 million people - there was no one to harvest bread and nothing (cattle were cut) to attract even the army and still rotted a lot.
    Despite the crop failure, the grain procurement plans were not cut and all were taken, leaving without bread.

    This complex of causes and caused death from hunger 7 million people (Resolution of the State Duma). And this is entirely the fault of the authorities.
    1. chenia
      chenia 23 July 2016 14: 58
      +1
      Quote: Aleksander
      This set of reasons caused the death of 7 million people from starvation (Decree of the State Duma). And this is entirely the fault of the authorities.


      And why not 70 million? When you are baptized you are baptized, and there is nothing to refer to the sources that you yourself come up with.

      Quote: chenia
      These losses were (excluding the Second World War) in the range of 4-6 million people (these are all famines, famines, repressions, etc.).

      Hunger in 30 years in Ukraine took 0,6-0,8 ml. people, not 3 million. Yes, and all the organizers of this, were then repressed.
      1. Aleksander
        Aleksander 23 July 2016 15: 58
        0
        Quote: chenia
        And why not 70 million? When you are baptized you are baptized, and there is nothing to refer to the sources you come up with


        Because 7 million, your miserableignorance is funny:
        April 2008 g. N 262-5 DG
        STATE DUMA OF THE FEDERAL MEETING OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION OF THE FIFTH CONVOCATION
        STATEMENT of April 2 2008
        IN MEMORY OF VICTIMS OF HUNGER OF 30-X IN THE TERRITORY OF THE USSR
        ...
        As a result of the famine caused by forced collectivization, many regions of the RSFSR (the Volga region, the Central Black Earth Region, the North Caucasus, the Urals, Crimea, part of Western Siberia), Kazakhstan, Ukraine, and Belarus were affected. About 1932 million people died from starvation and diseases associated with malnutrition in 1933-7.
        1. tatra
          tatra 23 July 2016 16: 00
          +3
          According to G. Tkachenko [45], “the invention of the term“ Holodomor ”(instead of“ hunger ”) was attributed to D. Mays, the author of the book“ Communism and the Dilemmas of National Liberation: National Communism in Soviet Ukraine in 1919-1933. ”However, According to historians, the real authors of this substitution of concepts were Ukrainian nationalists, emigrants of the second wave, who from 1945 to 1952 committed bloody actions on the territory of Western Ukraine, and during the Nazi occupation of Ukraine "became famous" in the field of collaborators, Nazi servants. "
          Now many liberal democrats mention the figure of 7-8 million peasants in the USSR, as if they died from starvation in 1932-1933. It is interesting that this figure (to be exact - 7 people) is found in the propaganda leaflet of the 910Z ​​series of Dr. Goebbels, dropped in October 000 to Soviet positions [154].
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. chenia
          chenia 23 July 2016 16: 26
          +2
          Quote: Aleksander
          Because 7 million, your miserable knowledge is ridiculous:
          April 2008 g. N 262-5 DG
          STATE DUMA OF THE FEDERAL MEETING OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION OF THE FIFTH CONVOCATION
          STATEMENT of April 2 2008
          IN MEMORY OF VICTIMS OF HUNGER OF 30-X IN THE TERRITORY OF THE USSR


          You dearly knowing listen, the fact that we always have a figure selected for the sake of power, otherwise I have long been aware of it from the ceiling.

          But you have to have your own head. Where do these numbers come from?
          It’s easy to calculate the maximum losses.

          For 40 years (20-60 years), all types of losses (this and the unborn) - no more than 70 million people.

          Of these, 40 million WWII (37-38 million losses with unborn and + 2-3 million unborn from losses).

          30 million remains. If we remove the unborn, up to 10 million remains 20 million.

          to take away losses of emigration after VOSR - 4,5 million
          take away losses "Spanish flu" pandemic (3%) - 5 million
          to take away the losses of the Civil War (dead, white and red terror, typhoid and falling birth rates, etc.) - 6,5 million

          And there remains up to 5 million for all famines and repressions.

          Well, there are simply no more people.
          1. Aleksander
            Aleksander 24 July 2016 06: 51
            -2
            Quote: chenia
            You dearly knowing listen, the fact that we always have a figure selected for the sake of power, otherwise I have long been aware of it from the ceiling.


            State Duma statement is official state assessment, forcedly made on the basis of the work of the commission.

            Dumb estimates (up to 5 million) wretched accountants least interested.
            1. user3970
              user3970 24 July 2016 09: 24
              +1
              is the gdp president a state man? Should he be responsible for his words spoken publicly? Two years ago, he publicly apologized to the Poles for the shooting near Katyn. Why did the Poles not rush to international courts for compensation? Sometimes the State Duma and the president can be roosters - crowed, and then at least do not blossom.
              1. Aleksander
                Aleksander 24 July 2016 10: 59
                -1
                Quote: user3970
                Sometimes the State Duma and the President can be roosters - crowed, and then at least do not bloom.


                Very informative comment. Once again: the Duma had no reason to overestimate the number of victims of the famine of 1932-33 and even talk about it.
                But the question worried many, a commission was created, on the basis of the results of which, after studying the archives, the Duma came to this FORCEED Statement
                1. goose
                  goose 25 July 2016 10: 57
                  0
                  Quote: Aleksander
                  Once again: the Duma had no reason to overestimate the number of victims of the famine of 1932-33 and even talk about it.

                  The Yakovlev State Commission, it seemed, had no reason to overestimate the number of victims of the repressions of the Stalin regime, but this number was three times as high. The number of sentences passed was taken as the number of people shot, without taking into account their execution and postponement. More than 80% of court sentences of the period 1936-1938 were quashed in 1939-1940. But this fact was not taken into account by the commission, as well as census data.

                  So government documents have the right to be criticized.
            2. chenia
              chenia 24 July 2016 11: 09
              +1
              Quote: Aleksander
              The State Duma statement is an official assessment of the state, made on the basis of the work of the commission.


              In Ukraine, officially (under Yushchenko) losses from the famine of 15 million people.
              The commission also met and a bunch of historians and extras.

              Here are two official pieces of paper (you probably have a loss of consciousness, your little mind is not capable of analysis).
              And how to combine them?

              That's just the question, and where so many people gain all these losses?

              It does not work (unless of course you think).
              1. Aleksander
                Aleksander 24 July 2016 20: 33
                0
                Quote: chenia
                Ukraine officially recognized (under Yushchenko) the losses from the famine 15 million people. A bunch of historians and extras also met the commission


                The Ruin had a completely different goal - to blame Russia for the genocide, and for this they increased it by a factor of 4. In Russia, I repeat, for THIRD times, there were no such goals, so the assessment is objective.
                Quote: chenia
                Here are two official pieces of paper (you probably have a loss of consciousness, your little mind is not capable of analysis). And how to combine them?

                It doesn’t combine only in the Chen’s head with completely amputated brain.
                Quote: chenia
                unless of course think).


                Do not cripple yourself with this ! hi

                See demographics
                1. chenia
                  chenia 24 July 2016 20: 59
                  -2
                  Quote: Aleksander
                  The Ruin had a completely different goal - to blame Russia for the genocide


                  And the losses in the Second World War, how much?

                  7 million
                  20 million
                  27 million
                  all these figures were official.

                  But that is not the point? and I don’t always believe in biased officialdom.

                  I gave a balance, where all the losses are laid out.

                  Where is the mismatch?


                  Quote: Aleksander
                  Chen’s head with a completely amputated brain.


                  In general, rudeness is a sign of cattle.

                  If you have something to say, do not spread the porridge on a plate. And specifically.

                  Well, read on the thread (for educational purposes, to inculcate courtesy) how I can respond to the obscene cattle).

                  . And I think it makes no sense to bring to this.
                  1. KaPToC
                    KaPToC 24 July 2016 21: 48
                    0
                    Quote: chenia
                    In general, rudeness is a sign of cattle.

                    The use of the word cattle in your vocabulary is a sign of cattle.
                  2. Aleksander
                    Aleksander 25 July 2016 14: 09
                    -1
                    Quote: chenia
                    In general, rudeness is a sign of cattle.

                    Read your first boorish comments addressed to me: I am NEVER the first, not rude.
                    Quote: chenia
                    7 mln. 20 mln. 27 mln. All these figures were official. But that is not the point. and I don’t always believe in biased officialdom.

                    -7 million-biased officialdom-a lie and an attempt to embellish oneself,
                    -20 million maybe a lie, or maybe an unfinished calculation, in any case, an injection to Stalin,
                    -27 million unbiased officialdom after many years, and therefore the most objective

                    Quote: chenia
                    I gave a balance, where all the losses are laid out.


                    The balance is calculated not from the general to the particular, but from many particulars to the general. And one of the numbers is the victim of hunger.

                    It was about 7 million victims of hunger: for 1933 the country's population declined on 6 million people (despite the fact that the increase (although smaller) was in the hungry 1932-31).
                    Quote: chenia
                    Well, read on the thread (for educational purposes, to inculcate courtesy) how can I respond to the obscene cattle


                    For many years I served as a military builder and to answer (for any purpose) I can, believe me.
                    1. Simpsonian
                      Simpsonian 25 July 2016 14: 14
                      +1
                      Why to Stalin? Why not then executed to including the Trotskyite-Zinoviev-Bukharin bloc for this famine?
                    2. chenia
                      chenia 25 July 2016 15: 06
                      -1
                      Quote: Aleksander
                      The balance is calculated not from the general to the particular, but from many particulars to the general. And one of the numbers is the victim of hunger.


                      You must have engineering thinking.
                      How is efficiency determined? First, the energy expended. Then the loss.
                      And the amount of losses cannot exceed the energy expended.

                      I give the layout.

                      In 1914, the population of RI was -167 million. Over the years 1 MV. the population (despite the loss and decline in fertility) still increased by 3-5 million.

                      T.E. 1918 was 170-173 million (I think you will have no objection to this figure.

                      Next on 1960 g. (taken because the question of repression at this time is removed.)

                      In the USSR there should be no more than 280 million people.

                      How is the figure obtained? Comparison. Growth over 40 years (20-60)

                      Take the gain of Britain-30%
                      France -35%. Spain - 45%, Greece - 67%, Bulgaria - 65%.

                      Obviously, the higher industrialization and urbanization, the lower the percentage growth.
                      The USSR in 40 had a third of the urban population, 60 half.

                      But i take growth rate Bulgaria. at that time the agrarian patriarchal country- 65 % (although it could have been lower).

                      As a result, we have 280 people.

                      According to the 1959 census, the population of the USSR - 209 million people.

                      Well, from here the loss of 280 -209 = 71 млн human.

                      Any objections?
                      Well, then I painted.
                      What figure do not agree discuss.
                      1. Aleksander
                        Aleksander 25 July 2016 22: 40
                        0
                        Quote: chenia
                        Any objections?


                        Your reasoning is understandable and logical, but ... incorrect (in my opinion) in principle of the approach, namely:

                        The sum is made up of terms, and not vice versa.

                        In addition: What urbanization fits the terrible losses of the Second World War (27 млн), and in fact they influenced, in turn, urbanization? And starvation losses 21-22, 32-33, 46-47gg (14 million people
                        ?
                        No, I need to find out each termwithout doing theoterizing: too many unknowns.

                        I think so.
                      2. chenia
                        chenia 26 July 2016 10: 27
                        -1
                        Quote: Aleksander
                        In addition: What urbanization fits the terrible losses of the Great Patriotic War (27 million), but did they, in turn, affect urbanization?


                        I determined what the population might have been in 1960, without taking into account any cataclysms.
                        It turned 280 million for 1960 (here it is necessary to consider only the factor of urbanization, which reduced the growth rate, and that’s all.)

                        For 1959 - 209 million real data.

                        and hence the alleged complete losses do not exceed 70 million people. (This net loss - died, emigrated, and were not born from losses). This is all without taking into account natural mortality.

                        IN WWII complete losses will be -37 million people.

                        In 1941, it was 197 million. The annual growth was then 2,5-2.7 million.

                        So in 1945 there should have been (if there hadn't been a war) 209-209 Million

                        And there were 170 million total losses -37 million people. (This is taking into account not dressed).

                        For 60 years. (over 15 years) losses will still increase by 2-3 million due to those who were not born from direct losses (27 million people). i.e., they will be 40-42 million.

                        Then for the period from 1918 to 1960 accounted for 71-41 = 30 million.

                        That's about 30 million (of course, there is also an error) is the loss over 40 years excluding the Second World War.

                        And if we exclude those who were not born up to 10 million from these losses. then there is real loss 20 Million

                        Of them 16 million. Civil war, the distribution I gave above.

                        And from here on all famines and repressions remains 4 (well, let 6) million people.

                        Here try to destroy this logic.
        4. The comment was deleted.
    2. Monarchist
      Monarchist 23 July 2016 19: 06
      0
      Lieutenant colonel, how much will be true: 7,12,70, maybe 120? We are waiting for enlightenment
      1. chenia
        chenia 23 July 2016 19: 12
        0
        Quote: Monarchist
        Lieutenant colonel, how much will be true: 7,12,70, maybe 120? We are waiting for enlightenment


        Specify the question - there will be an answer.

        What are you interested in?
    3. Simple
      Simple 23 July 2016 19: 24
      0
      Quote: chenia
      And why not 70 million?

      Do you feel like jumping?
      Why ask stupid provocative questions?
      There is something to cover- REFUTION.
      And on "Why" you have a "head of cabbage"
      Quote: chenia
      Quote: chenia
      These losses were (excluding WWII) within 4-6 million

      this is juggling
      1. chenia
        chenia 23 July 2016 19: 36
        0
        Quote: Just
        this is juggling


        No guys, this is data that is hard to refute, and you have not will work out. These figures correlate with independent official records.

        Because when the general recount of losses that similar people present to you begins, there are not enough people. And give arguments only as a special case, without connection with other facts and general statistics.
        1. Simple
          Simple 23 July 2016 22: 41
          +1
          Quote: chenia
          No guys, this is data that is hard to refute, and you won’t succeed.

          I did not see any numbers, links "boy".
          Mathematics, with errors, moreover, at the level of class No. 3 or EGE.
          What about the census in the USSR and "increasing the height of the average man" under Stalin?
          can "enlighten"
          Quote: chenia
          . And give arguments, only as a special case, without connection with other facts and general statistics.

          you have 0 arguments in general and a solid + \ - "on the knee"
          1. chenia
            chenia 23 July 2016 23: 02
            -1
            Quote: Just
            I did not see any numbers, links "boy".


            "Sonny" I'm 61 years old, but even so, if I was sitting next to me, I would start stuttering.

            Now in the case, Which figure does not like? Where does not hit, Besides the general chatter, not one sensible argument.
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. Simple
              Simple 24 July 2016 12: 20
              0
              "daddy" sho is seven years older than me ...
              I would not stutter.
              It would probably hurt how sick now remotely.
              Sorry for the cork comments removed.
              On the "case" I have already described. Closer to the body "daddy".
              1. chenia
                chenia 24 July 2016 12: 45
                -3
                Quote: Just
                It would probably hurt how sick now remotely.

                "daddy" sho is seven years older than me ..

                Well, here we have decided "sonny".

                Why is slang so hamodbyatsky like a schoolboy? Although okay.

                On business.

                I already wrote about absolute losses 70 million people in 40 years.
                Where is the mismatch?

                Absolute losses of the Second World War -40 million (for 60g.) - what's wrong here.

                Remaining 30 Million

                Civil War -16 million (4,5 emigration)
                11,5 casualties - and that’s not right.

                Naturally there is an error (2-3 million)

                There is something to argue forward. (only numbers, and without common phrases).
                1. Simple
                  Simple 24 July 2016 13: 52
                  +2
                  I already wrote what I would do with such @daddy ", but removed the mod.
                  I'll try more cultured (about "bydlyatsky", pay attention to yourself)
                  - As a mutant, my dad cannot be, not an importer can dream in 61 about childbearing in 7 years, for that he is a mutant.
                  -when they don’t have their own or do not respect their own, right and left, such daddies look for sons on the side, find and receive in turnips, leave and look again.
                  What can you "object" arschloch cyclotrons have an error of 2-3 million?
                  And who does not even know about the census of the population of Russia and the USSR?
                  About dates dates numbers?
                  Who cares only about populism?
                  1. chenia
                    chenia 24 July 2016 14: 05
                    -4
                    Quote: Just
                    I already wrote what I would do with such a @ dad


                    Hung me up however. One of my "click" kout, and would lie in a heap of shit, smearing the latter on the floor.

                    Quote: Just
                    And who does not even know about the census of the population of Russia and the USSR?
                    About dates dates numbers?


                    Chatterbox figures, numbers.
  • Aleksandr1981
    Aleksandr1981 23 July 2016 15: 32
    +1
    1. "Decree of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) On the rate of collectivization and measures of state assistance to collective farm construction" dated January 5, 1930 - provides for the continuous collectivization of the most important grain areas until the spring of 1932. It was in these areas that the terrible famine of 1932-33 broke out - that's what " random "with
    "Dear" fact-lover, tell us in more detail which areas do you mean. There was famine in the Ukraine and in the Volga region and even in the Urals.
    PS The lack of intelligence, of course, can be hidden by copying the statements of the enemies and traitors of Russia from the manual, on this site you will not find your comrades-in-arms. Go to the "censor" your thoughts will be appreciated there .....
    1. Aleksander
      Aleksander 23 July 2016 16: 08
      -3
      Quote: Aleksandr1981
      "Dear" fact-lover, tell us in more detail which areas do you mean. There was famine in the Ukraine and in the Volga region and even in the Urals.

      Dear ignorant of the Wacts: not me, but the Decree of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks (b) -read and obscurity.
      Quote: Aleksandr1981
      PS Not enoughto mindOf course, you can hide by copying from the training manual the statements of enemies and traitors of Russia, on this site you will not find companions. .....


      You can’t hide this drawback NEVER. lol These are the Decisions of the most political bureau and the State Duma, and not the manuals.
      They like to understand the site, not stupidity.
      Quote: Aleksandr1981
      Go to the "censor" your thoughts will be appreciated there .....

      I am not sending you anywhere: you have no thoughts at all and even in the "Journal for Downs" you have nothing to go with .. hi
  • Monarchist
    Monarchist 23 July 2016 18: 58
    -3
    Yes, the Bolsheviks had such a sin, but Stalin later, though with reservations, admitted mistakes.
  • revnagan
    revnagan 23 July 2016 19: 06
    +11
    My great-grandfather had a farm (horse, cows, land), and the object of envy of fellow villagers is a house under an iron roof !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! gave the cattle to the collective farm, but looked after it myself. village (a tremendous village, if anyone is interested, Chapleyevka, Sumy region), there were 6 children in the family. They were exiled and sent to Siberia. Only my wife's grandmother survived, who returned home on foot from Siberia. What can I say ... My father always says: “So, it was necessary.” Perhaps it could not have been otherwise. If it were not for collectivization, we would not have survived in the Great Patriotic War. But was it necessary to send a family with 6 children? Given that they were not in any organization "I would like to think that these were mistakes and sabotage of the enemies of Soviet power. The grandfathers fought honestly, fought at Yelnya, stormed Budapest and took Vienna. We were communists. Parents have a higher education. Soviet power gave housing. I never heard from them a hint of what was done to their ancestors unfairly. It was such a time. "It was necessary."
  • Ratmir_Ryazan
    Ratmir_Ryazan 23 July 2016 14: 50
    +6
    In such articles evaluating historical events, at least references to documents should be given ...
  • Palch
    Palch 23 July 2016 14: 54
    +4
    A bit off the topic of the Holodomor. Who are the poor in the year 31, or rather comedians (committees of the poor)? According to the stories of fellow villagers - this is drunk and loafers. They never worked, neither before the revolution, nor during the Soviet era, well, except for organizational work in a combo. It was these people who carried out directly the policy of dispossession and collectivization, which in life was very different from the theoretical calculations of the party elite. The workers, sailors and others sent to strengthen the ideological line could not dilute this mass of so-called the poor, and they themselves were often no better. By the way, in 41, the most ardent Komedovtsy in our area met the Nazis with bread and salt. At 45, they were arrested, but thanks to the humanity (even at that time) of our justice, after serving their time, they returned home. And all one - none of them really worked like that - drink it - they drank it yes. As a child, I managed to see these people personally and to hear stories about them and about the dispossession process in person from direct participants in those events.
    1. Monarchist
      Monarchist 23 July 2016 19: 19
      +1
      About the so-called "kombeds": by the beginning of collectivization there were 70 percent of inveterate scoundrels. Some (albeit just a little) were shot back in the 30s, and now they are "niva victims of Stalinism"
  • sounddoc
    sounddoc 23 July 2016 15: 10
    +9
    I do not want to comment on the article .... not because I don’t agree, but because I don’t have the appropriate knowledge ... Of course, Svidomo dancing on the bones to howl about the Holodomor, I categorically do not accept ...
    I want to tell you, members of the forum, the story of the famine that affected my family.
    The deceased mother grew up in a beautiful village on the river. Uday (Poltava region), brought up by her grandparents. Grandfather Misha (my great-grandfather) was the best shoemaker in the district, so that the family lived, by the standards of that time, fine. Grandma told her mother that before the famine began, great-grandfather, a very intelligent man, began to hide, despite quarrels with his grandmother, in the forest grain, little by little, but constantly. As it turned out later, these stocks helped them not to die either for two children .. Grandma told her mother that they lived half-starved, ate quinoa and acorns, but always added a little grated flour to this bitter bread (I they were found!). After two houses, a grandmother of youth lived in Kateryna with her son Lenka. She died immediately, and Lenka came every day and grandmother gave him a piece of that very bread. Unfortunately, every day the piece became smaller. When there was only quinoa and acorns, the grandmother could not give anything. The thin Lenka cried, went to the hill near the house, sat there and died by night ... Mom said that the grandmother could not forgive herself this death, and when she remembered, she cried, prayed and quietly cursed the power ...
    .... Strongly do not accept Svidomo dancing on the bones ...
    1. Drzed
      Drzed 23 July 2016 19: 36
      0
      my family was dispossessed three times, SURVIVED
  • tor978
    tor978 23 July 2016 15: 31
    +1
    Quote: Palch
    Quote: Grandfather Micah
    He knew from history that "the leader of the Western world, England broke off economic relations with the USSR, pushing it into the abyss of hunger." These moral ... will not calm down. An extra island for me

    And what does England have to do with it, if our compatriots enforcing the party’s instructions on universal collectivization were often illiterate, limited and embittered people ... If England did not give us bread, then no one bothered us to grow it ourselves. However, as now !!!

    Well, in order to grow bread you need time, in winter, unfortunately, bread does not grow, to distribute sowing to people was a deadly step, after which the Communist Party would be thrown out of power. There was only one chance to wait out the winter-spring-summer 33 years and wait for the harvest. But in Moscow they decided to save Ukraine and thereby leave the Volga region hunger.
  • andrew-z
    andrew-z 23 July 2016 16: 28
    -7
    Well, everyone spoke out “angrily”, neighing, joking about the “maydauns”? Congratulations. You feel better and this is the only positive result of this article. The rest is all in vain because no one in Ukraine reads this and will not read it (well, except for a few dozen reading VOs).
    Threat. By the way, this applies to everything that you write about Ukraine.
    A weak Ukrainian woman is somehow caught, you cannot be so trusting. I read the author's lines and the template quickly "broke". You need to work on yourself so that this does not happen. And also at school to study at least "six-seven" and normally pass the DPA in history.
    Where is the evidence, arguments, justification, links to documents and eyewitness memories? The style of presentation is absolutely not scientific, in places there is fierce delirium that runs counter to even the old Soviet historiography. As a graduate of the history department, I laughed at some paragraphs for a long time, although this topic does not dispose of humor at all ... For Ukraine it was a tragedy and no matter how they justified it with "you", hunger, as a percentage of the entire population, mostly affected Ukraine than Russia.
    In Ukrainian textbooks on the history of famine, dozens of pages with illustrations, excerpts from documents are devoted, days of memory of the victims of the famine, information class hours, movie screenings are held, and here the author set out to convince in 7 paragraphs that "everything was not so there."
    And it is especially touches the author's desire to make all this "true" and the complaint that "All this does not know a modern Ukrainian citizen." The answer is that he shouldn't.
    Any real (!) Historian knows (this is taught from the first year) that history is an interpretation of events from the point of view of a certain ideology. There is no unified history. In Russia it has its own, in Europe it has its own, in the United States it has its own, in Ukraine (now!) It is not at all, but also its own. Well, in which country do they teach history from textbooks "approved" by scientists or politicians of another country? Do you not like what is written there? Well, don't read it. This is a normal practice for different states, for this, in fact, they are needed.
    1. tatra
      tatra 23 July 2016 16: 40
      +6
      Quote: andrew-z
      Any real (!) Historian knows (this is taught from the first year) that history is an interpretation of events from the point of view of a certain ideology. There is no unified story.

      There is a very simple way to check when people are sincere, they DO NOT lie, and the enemies of the communists not only easily declared 3 famines in Soviet Russia / USSR in 1921, 1933, 1946 as "famines specially arranged by cannibals and ghoul communists", but also try to spread as many dead as possible.
      - Yushchenko in November 2005 at the opening ceremony of the exhibition “Rosgoydan Dzvoni Pam'yati” said that about 15 million Ukrainians were killed during the Ukrainian famines.
      Excerpt from his interview with a journalist from Israel:
      “About 10 million were destroyed in our Great Famine. Historical studies show that in the year 29 we were 81 million, and in the 79th - 41 million. The world is wondering where dozens of millions of people have gone over these 50 years? Obviously, yes. Because these people were destroyed, including during the Great Famine ... "
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 23 July 2016 17: 00
      +8
      Quote: andrew-z
      In Ukrainian textbooks on the history of famine, dozens of pages with illustrations, excerpts from documents are devoted, days of memory of the victims of the famine, information class hours, movie screenings are held, and here the author set out to convince in 7 paragraphs that "everything was not so there."

      Strange, you do not find ?. There is no famine, but there are days of memory, cool hours, movies.
      Quote: andrew-z
      There is no unified story. In Russia, it has its own, in Europe - its own, in the USA - its own, in Ukraine (now!) Which is none, but also its own.

      And aren't you ashamed of such an official story?
      Quote: andrew-z
      Well, in which country do they teach history from textbooks "approved" by scientists or politicians of another country?

      The question is not to approve or disapprove of something, but that there was no Holodomor as a conscious extermination of Ukrainians, but your officials use the Holodomor as a means of fostering national identity - through hatred of Russians, which in itself is extremely destructive for the psyche of the younger generation. And it is not entirely clear why you expect us to be indifferent to how you educate your youth - to treat us Russians. Are you trying to create an enclave with 40+ million people near our border, which would treat Russians with hatred? And do you think that this is not our business? :))) I still apologize, just ours. You are generally very interesting as a public education - we do not like Russia, we try to look down on it: Russians are either slaves, or orcs, or something in between, but at the same time go to the "horde" to bow and break their hats for gas discounts it is the most for you. And your army, air force and navy surrender the Crimea without a single shot. Well, just in the best Cossack traditions.
      1. tatra
        tatra 23 July 2016 17: 05
        +3
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        use the Holodomor as a means of educating national identity

        Yes, this is Bandera and the "Holodomor" - this is anti-Soviet-Russophobic ideology, the self-identification of the "independent".
        Nothing more had come of them in a quarter of a century, and they would hold on to it with a stranglehold.
      2. tatra
        tatra 23 July 2016 17: 05
        +1
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        use the Holodomor as a means of educating national identity

        Yes, this is Bandera and the "Holodomor" - this is anti-Soviet-Russophobic ideology, the self-identification of the "independent".
        Nothing more had come of them in a quarter of a century, and they would hold on to it with a stranglehold.
    4. goose
      goose 25 July 2016 11: 40
      0
      Quote: andrew-z
      Any real (!) Historian knows (this is taught from the first year) that history is an interpretation of events from the point of view of a certain ideology.

      History is not an interpretation of events, but an attempt to systematize and explain them. Forgery of facts, as well as unfounded conclusions, have nothing to do with history. Historical theories are proved in scientific disputes, not by political decision.
      I have already seen a precedent for the defense of the diploma: "You have your own physics, and we have our own." This formulation of the question turns science into a religion or a sect.
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 23 July 2016 16: 32
    +5
    To be honest, the article is of the same "censor" level and there it belongs.
    Of course, there was no specially organized famine, and there couldn’t be - who needs to destroy their own people? The Holodomor is a completely stupid and anti-historical speculation, designed for ... not too smart, and completely unfamiliar with the history of people.
    But this does not negate the fact that the famine of those years was caused by the mistakes of the country's leadership. No, and without them, hunger would have happened anyway and, probably, there would have been a lot of human victims (damned tsarism, by the way, suffered from hunger with a certain frequency) - but if it weren’t for the mistakes of those in power, then the scale of hunger would have been much lower.
    Leadership ... blame, on the one hand, is hard. They had just learned to rule the country using new, centralized methods of managing, there was no experience and mistakes (no matter how scary it sounds) were inevitable. On the other hand, when as a result of your mistake such hecatombs of corpses ... I don’t know.
    I’m somehow closer and more understandable to people like Commissioner Vashugin. He also wanted the best, when he forced Ryabyshev not to wait for the approach and deployment of the entire 8 th mechanized corps near Dubno, but to throw the divisions into battle in parts. But when Popel’s group got into the environment and Vashugin realized what he had done, he himself pronounced the verdict, and he himself executed it.
    1. tasha
      tasha 23 July 2016 17: 18
      +5
      I agree in many ways. It is possible that the transition to a collective form of agriculture could have been carried out without such tragic consequences. Here, suppose, "the average village is 100 households, 4-5 kulaks, 8-10 well-to-do, 45-50 middle peasants and 35 poor households." Imagine, you are a XNUMX-thousander worker. And you voluntarily go to the village to organize a collective farm. How many rounds do you need for a revolver? wink This is the task ... If we take into account some features of peasant life, views on life, on property

      I recalled here. A year in 1987 or something. We went to the harvesting class, and tried to introduce KTU, the coefficient of labor participation, with us. Who worked like a day, the coefficient is bigger ... You know, it was interesting. The best results were among the most boisterous, arrogant and cunning, best friends of the appointed team leader, but not necessarily hardworking.
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 23 July 2016 17: 52
        +5
        Quote: tasha
        Imagine you are a twenty-five thousandth worker. And you voluntarily go to the village to organize a collective farm. How many rounds will you need for a gun?

        Brrr ... Give me two. Nagana. And a machine gun, please. And the armored car - is it possible? Yes, yes, that bearded one, with a cap off him, and give it to me. Give the armored car, not the bearded one.
        But here is the matter - the Holodomor, although it is connected with collective farm construction, but still the key issue was the requirements for harvesting, that is, planned delivery of grain. I dealt with this issue quite seriously, but for quite some time, now I don’t remember much. It is interesting that we were dealing with this issue together, with an absolutely Svidomo comrade - but he, for all his Svidomo, had not yet said goodbye to his head and was able to perceive things as they are, and not as he would like to see them. Digging documents, only the noise was ... His verdict - there was no famine.
        1. tasha
          tasha 23 July 2016 17: 57
          0
          And a detachment of Chinese. Here is the finished collective farm. "In the name of Lope de Vega" wink

          There was no "Holodomor". And there was hunger.
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 23 July 2016 18: 00
            +1
            Quote: tasha
            There was no "Holodomor". And there was hunger.

            Who argues?
    2. goose
      goose 25 July 2016 11: 44
      0
      I must say that in those days there were quite a few Bolsheviks. Accordingly, the question of personnel has always been acute. I am afraid that the policy of the Bolsheviks on the ground was not carried out by the Bolsheviks at all. Add here 3 wars in 10 years. Hence the ambiguous result of the execution of some party lines.
  • Evil 55
    Evil 55 23 July 2016 16: 40
    +1
    Russians are an antibiotic and leukocytes of Europe .. With their help, she fights her eternal ailments. Well, UKRALINA is her cancerous tumor. Chemotherapy no longer helps. All that remains is to remove it operably ..
  • sogdianec
    sogdianec 23 July 2016 16: 44
    +2
    I’m tormented by this question: under the Tsar-priest there was a famine and pestilence of the population from malnutrition, whom to blame? That's right, the Tsar is to blame, did not keep track of the boyars, led an incorrect economic policy.
    Now, let’s say, in 2008, we would have starved and died several million, who would be to blame? Right, Supreme.
    And now, the main question - Who is to blame for the famine and death of Soviet people in many regions of our country in the 30s of the last century? Is it really England, Trotsky, or "kulaks", or maybe Japanese spies?
    1. Attsxnumx
      23 July 2016 17: 12
      +1
      And in tsarist Russia, famine happened regularly! The 1911 edition of the Brockhaus and Efron encyclopedia contains an extensive article "Famine in Russia". Here is just a short excerpt: “In 1872 the first Samara famine broke out, which struck precisely that province, which until that time was considered the richest granary of Russia. during the XX century.Samara province starved 1891 times, Saratov province 29. Over the past thirty years, the most severe hunger strikes date back to 8 (the Lower Volga region, part of the lake and new Russian provinces) and by 9 (Novorossiya and part of non-black earth Pskov); then, after the famine of 1880, there was a famine of 1885 in the central and southeastern provinces, hunger strikes in 1891 and 1892 approximately in the same area; in the 1897th century, the famine of 98 in 1901 provinces of the center, south and east, hunger strike in 17 (1905 provinces, including four non-chernozem ones, Pskov, Novgorodskaya, Vitebsk, Kostroma), opening a whole series of hunger strikes: 22, 1906, 1907 and 1908 (according to the advantage of the eastern, central nii, Novorossiya) "
      1. tatra
        tatra 23 July 2016 17: 20
        -2
        Quote: Ats73
        And in tsarist Russia, famine happened regularly!

        For the enemies of the communists, everything is strictly according to their PROFITABLE "program". Not the slightest deviation.
        They do not care about hunger with human casualties, political repression, including executions, mass deportations of hundreds of thousands of people of "unreliable" nationalities in the Russian Empire and capitalist countries of the world.
        And all the same in the USSR is immediately a crime against humanity, genocide, famine.
        And in everything else that they expose for the crimes of the Soviet Communists, they have the same double standards.
      2. Attsxnumx
        23 July 2016 19: 34
        -2
        It turns out that well-fed years were perhaps the exceptions in the series of hungry. The cause of hunger is called crop failure, which is not entirely true. The main reason was that the tsarist government intensively scooped up grain from the peasants in order to be able to export it and pay off loans, and Russia took loans because it could not fill the budget without credit. The question was this: either another loan on enslaving terms, or a revolution. In the case of a crop failure, the Russian Empire did not stop the export of grain, because the peasants were starving.

        In itself, a poor harvest in certain regions could not be the cause of hunger, since the gross harvest of grain, even in the most lean years, was sufficient to feed the population. In addition, surplus remains from years with a good harvest, which help to survive the hungry years. But the export-oriented economy had no grain reserves, the country lived under the slogan “We’re undernourished, but we’ll take it out,” the refusal to export meant a revolution, and therefore ... By the way, during the First World War, Russia was the only belligerent country that did not experience food difficulties. Even in neutral Sweden, food was distributed according to ration cards, while in our country they appeared only after the revolution. The reason for this phenomenon is the impossibility of export due to the war. Paradoxically, because of the war, the peasants began to eat better.
  • mamont5
    mamont5 23 July 2016 17: 07
    +1
    Quote: cniza
    Now it is useless for them to prove something, while the raguli in power, when they are dropped, then everyone will understand.

    Yeah, they’ll understand when they press it. And then, they feed themselves on Russian breads and again they drag out their song that the Russians are their enemies.
  • Attsxnumx
    23 July 2016 17: 08
    +5
    Why can we say with confidence that there was no Holodomor, that it was an invention? It is enough to familiarize yourself with the definition: Holodomor is an artificially organized famine with the aim of destroying the Ukrainian people (ethnocide), the victims of which were millions of people (data vary). In this definition, only one word has something to do with reality - "hunger". Everything else is nonsense.
  • lesnik1978
    lesnik1978 23 July 2016 17: 22
    +1
    The author wrote the truth. Not far from us lived a native of those regions (Kiev region, Olshansky district, the village of Olshany. He said the collective farm was prosperous, there was enough grain. And then at one "fine" moment people came to their village and poured water over the grain. Roads to the city were blocked He managed to get under the carriage and come to the city. And there is another world! He bought lemonade, drank it, then bought flour and drove back. So in some places it was an artificial creation. Everyone remembers Nevzorov's programs "600 seconds", about Tons of smoked sausage were buried in the trash cans. We still have this happens all the time. If there is a crop failure on the collective farm, for example, it is not profitable to harvest, they will see that the old ladies are dripping with hoes on the field, they are plowing in a moment, so that people do not get it.
  • murriou
    murriou 23 July 2016 18: 05
    0
    Why are there dill, our compatriots compatriots, too, many infected with this lie.
  • Brigadier
    Brigadier 23 July 2016 19: 07
    +2
    Interestingly they came up with crest-like ones. The famine in Russia in the 30s was a deception of the Muscovites, and the famine in Ukraine at the same time was a "famine" ... One word - maydauns ... And this is no longer cured, only amputation!
  • chenia
    chenia 23 July 2016 19: 08
    -4
    Quote: Aleksander
    These are the Decisions of the most political bureau and the State Duma, and not the manuals.
    They like to understand the site, not stupidity.


    So what. I understand that a liberalist from Moldova can pull necessary for yourself official document.

    But for example, how many of ours died in the Second World War, out of 3 documents (Stalin-7 million, Khrushchov-20 million, Gorbachov-27 million).

    And whom to believe?
    1. murriou
      murriou 24 July 2016 06: 17
      -1
      Quote: chenia
      But for example, how many of ours died in the Second World War, out of 3 documents (Stalin-7 million, Khrushchov-20 million, Gorbachov-27 million).

      One must understand the origin of the numbers and know the difference between the categories of losses.

      In World War II, civilian casualties were more than military, because the Nazis committed genocide in the occupied territory and committed war crimes against civilians in relation to prisoners of war.

      According to the data that Stalin provided for the Yalta Conference, we had about 8,5 million military losses (not 7), civilian losses about 9 million (and you "forgot" about them). This was not yet a complete calculation, but it was already quite reliable.

      Khrushchev took the figures from the ceiling altogether, he needed to justify himself for the coup and slander Stalin as he liked. Gorbachev tried even harder; he needed to surpass Khrushchev.

      That's all. So understandable?
  • andrew-z
    andrew-z 23 July 2016 19: 47
    -5
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Strange, you do not find ?. There is no famine, but there are days of memory, cool hours, movies.

    Nothing strange - there was a famine, so there are days of memory, cool hours, movies ... But isn’t it? And who said that?
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    And aren't you ashamed of such an official story?

    What is shameful in Ukrainian history? There are, of course, "black pages", there are tragic pages, there are uncomfortable moments ... And who does not have them? They can also be found in Russian history, and you don't even need to strain yourself. Aren't you ashamed of such an official story?

    I am not responsible for the statements of other people and do not always agree with the official wording. For example, I partially accept the idea of ​​"deliberate destruction of Ukrainians", but with reservations. They needed money for industrialization - they took grain from the peasants and sold it to the west. The peasants, of course (!) Began to refuse to work and harvest (and why collect if everything must be given?), Began to express dissatisfaction (up to slogans about the overthrow of the government), and so that the peasants would not scatter, the government “wisely” limited their movements passports ... Hunger was both a consequence of these reasons and a punishment for the "disaffected".
    As for what you wrote below, then there is a classic "Russian-centrism of thinking" - that is, everything is determined from the point of view of Russia's interests. The question is - where are the interests of Ukraine? I'll try to justify the points
    1. What should the average Ukrainian think when reading about himself as "Nazis, maydanutyh, pan-headed, raguli, selyuk" and so on? In response, there are well-known hard-hitting statements about Russians as about cotton wool, putoros and so on ... Here they often talk about Russophobia, but for some reason they do not notice Ukrainophobia, "which in itself is extremely destructive for the psyche of the younger generation." Well, if they teach this from you, why shouldn't they be from us? Are we also indifferent?
    2. Likewise, you have a "hostile" enclave of 40+ million at your side, we have a "hostile" enclave of 140+ million. It's still relative, right?
    3. in Russia, too, they really do not like the West, which "wants to destroy Russia", they call it "gay", "pend" "skim", "well, stupid", they look at it from high, daily threaten to destroy it, "reach Washington" (this is especially a sin here in the VO), but at the same time they regularly go to the West to bow, cram into cooperation, they want to trade with him in oil and gas, and in exchange to receive yachts, Gelendvagens, iPhones, watches for 600 thousand from there, to teach there their children and relax in the "south". Doesn't it look like anything? Why don't you give up Western goodies and return to the origins, to the "native Russian", and only then teach others how to live?
    The same is with Ukraine - here many exclaim, they say, let Ukraine give up Russian gas. The answer is - let Russia give up the Ukrainian (ie, "according to you" - Nazi!) Money for this gas. Doesn't money smell? So why are you better than us?
    4. Here, yes, I admit, they surrendered Crimea ineptly. But following your logic - if they surrendered Crimea and it was "bad" and it was a reproach to the Armed Forces of Ukraine, then what Dobass did not surrender is already "good", right? It turns out that in your eyes the Ukrainian "army, air force and fleet" are trying to rehabilitate themselves? Are you not happy about this progress?
    1. tatra
      tatra 23 July 2016 20: 01
      +1
      Quote: andrew-z
      What shame do you find in Ukrainian history?

      And what good is there in your false, hypocritical anti-Soviet-Russophobic "history" with a complex of "eternal victims", with the glorification of Nazi accomplices, sadists and separatists - Ukrainian nationalists?
      Industrialization to you "and at what cost?" and why do all the Ukrainian enemies of the communists who wept "over the mythical" Holodomor "do not care that your deindustrialization after 1991 cost the lives of more than 2 million Ukrainians, which was supermortality after the seizure of the Ukrainian SSR by the enemies of the communists?
      Is there no benefit to portraying "philanthropy" and "righteous anger"?
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Mic1969
      Mic1969 23 July 2016 22: 04
      +2
      Ukroainophobia, you say? I hear and see about cutting Rusnya. And where are the calls to cut out the Ukrainians? The parade on Red Square and the hike to the Urals - I hear and see this. And where are the calls to raze Kiev to the ground? Ukrophobia is possible, and even then unlikely. I do not hate "Nazis, maydanutyh, pan-headed, raguli, selukov, dill, cynical banderas and velikoukrov" - that's the disgust that I have for them.
      Did Russia teach you to live? They wanted one thing from you - loyalty. You were not allowed into the EU? You were asked to decide who and how to trade since you can’t sit on two chairs.
      And now the guys are teaching you to live. Not Russia, no one else. So how do you like it?
      "there was a famine, so there are days of remembrance, class hours, movies ... But isn't it?" yes everything is correct, was Bandera means there are monuments, avenues, Hero of Ukraine.
      "they go to the West to bow, get ready for cooperation," you are stuck in the 90s, tovarischch. Just look at Kerry and Lavrov who visited whom and how many times.
      "to trade in oil and gas, and in exchange to receive yachts, Gelendvagens, iPhones from there" I personally do not see anything bad in trade. And apparently the West too, and count up, the West wants to buy gas, oil, grain, rocket engines, weapons, aircraft and much more.
      "The answer is - let Russia give up the Ukrainian (ie," according to you "- Nazi!) Money for this gas" - well, that the hohlosuschnost - "FREEBIE COME" has broken through. You buy gas from the aggressor Russia, or you can buy from Romania (Poland, Germany, Zimbabwe, underline the necessary). We sell you gas to former relatives, and without money, this is no longer a sale.
      "what do not give Dobass" And to whom do you not give it? Ukrainians living there? What have you to do with it so that now I doubt that they will ever return to you.
      "not happy about this progress?" hammering on residential buildings is progress, is the murder of children and women rehabilitation?

      Now seriously.
      "What shame do you find in Ukrainian history?" Why are you not ashamed of the destroyed Troy and the burned Rome?
      1. andrew-z
        andrew-z 23 July 2016 23: 59
        -3
        Quote: Mic1969
        Ukroainofobiya, you say? About cutting Rusnya I hear and see. And where are the calls to slaughter the Ukrainians?

        You are a treasure trove of patriotic naivety! And where, if not here, on VO, Napoleon's plans to "resolve the issue" are regularly encountered, to take Kiev, to reach Lviv, to hang the Banderlog, to re-educate the rest (you must have some Makarenki ...). As if someone cares about your personal disgust, you can "experience sensations" and say anything, that's why the sites exist. Many in Ukraine have already developed an immunity to all the words that you use and all sorts of "404", "unfinished", "under-state", "non-language" and so on do not bother anyone. Play for health.
        Quote: Mic1969
        Did Russia teach you to live? They wanted one thing from you - loyalty.
        And this is not teaching how to live, given that the degree of "loyalty" should be determined not by Ukraine but by the Kremlin?
        Quote: Mic1969
        was Bandera means there are monuments, avenues, Hero of Ukraine.

        There is. You may be surprised, but he is not often remembered, there is no cult. Well, they gave him a hero and God bless him. After all, there is a hero of Russia Kadyrov and a bridge in honor of his father ... and nothing. And the "name of Russia" Alexander Nevsky - the first policeman of Russia who served the Horde and killed the Russians. As the famous comedian said - "Coincidence? ... I don't think so."
        1. Mic1969
          Mic1969 24 July 2016 09: 52
          0
          Once again, I carefully ask for Troy and Rome is not ashamed?
        2. user3970
          user3970 24 July 2016 09: 56
          0
          Stop After the Bialowieza agreements, at the time of Ebna and the GDP, how much did Russia invest in the form of loans and discounts for gas and fuels and lubricants in independent Ukraine? 200 billion dollars? After the Bialowieza agreements, Ukraine had the best army in Europe with enough weapons to conduct a full-fledged war. Where is the army and weapons? After the Bialowieza agreements, Ukraine remained with a first-class industry created by the labor of all the people of the USSR. Where is the industry? Did they all shit? The future of Ukraine is as follows: agrarian autonomy within Russia, taxed to pay off external loans taken earlier, who do not want to engage in agricultural exploration of Siberia and the Far East, replacing the Chinese with their presence.
        3. Mic1969
          Mic1969 24 July 2016 09: 58
          +1
          Do not cry, and you will be cured.
      2. andrew-z
        andrew-z 24 July 2016 00: 01
        -2
        Quote: Mic1969
        Just look at Kerry and Lavrov who visited whom and how many times.

        You have some kind of "street-kid" ideas about etiquette. Who came first - that humiliating "begging"? Why then did Putin go to China?
        Quote: Mic1969
        I personally do not see anything bad in trading. And apparently the west, too, and estimate
        And if there is nothing wrong with trading with the "gay" West "who wants to destroy Russia", then what is wrong with trading with a pro-European (sorry, Nazi) oriented Ukraine? What's the difference between them?
        Quote: Mic1969
        hohlosuschnost - "FREEBY COME".

        And who writes about a freebie? Just don’t sell gas, nobody will twist your hands and do not press your fingers with the door. Or do you still want to regularly receive dollars and euros from Ukraine?
        Quote: Mic1969
        "what do not give Dobass" And to whom do you not give it? Ukrainians living there?
        And Crimea was also handed over to "Ukrainians living there"? You will decide ...

        Quote: Mic1969
        not happy about this progress? "to hammer on residential buildings is progress, killing children and women is rehabilitation?
        No need to pull out of context, my answer was addressed to another person who reproached (!) The APU for passivity when surrendering the Crimea! Now there is no reproach for passivity?
        But about shooting at residential buildings - is there a lot of video where APU artillery shoots from residential areas? But I can bring a sufficient number of videos where the militias stray from mortars, howitzers and MLRS literally from the yards of high-rise buildings, provoking an answer. Moreover, rusSMI solemnly removing this (think about it!) Does not even understand that they are actually documenting the war crimes of militias with their own hands. Claim them for such a setup of civilians? Or just APU?
        1. ILDM1986
          ILDM1986 24 July 2016 08: 46
          +3
          falsehood and distortion in every sentence.
          You have propaganda of hatred towards Russians at all levels - in schools, on television, on television, from the government - find examples so that in our schools they cook compote "the blood of Russian babies", and you have these jokes! and then you are surprised that they begin to hate you in return - and what do you want to be loved after that, *** fascist! Calls "to reach Kiev" began after your Ukronazis burned people in Odessa, killed thousands of people in the DPR and LPR. DO NOT FORGET DO NOT FORGIVE!
          Loyalty to be mutual - the RF gave you discounts on gas supplies, preferential trade duties, and bought your high-tech equipment. And what did we get in return? hatred, contempt and ingratitude! the more you give, the more you give in - the more you hate Russia.
          About Nevsky - at that time he led the only correct policy, all those who tried to resist the Golden Horde were burned and cut out to the root. Even if all of Russia united and acted as a united front, the rebels would simply destroy everyone, Donskoy could defeat only by taking advantage of the feuds inside the Horde, and then he eventually got burnt Moscow. And the remnants of the Golden Horde continued raiding right up to the 18th century - until they took the Crimea! About Kadyrov, he went over to the side of the Russian Federation and did a lot in his life so that there would be peace and order in his region so that Russian guys would not die there. He atoned for his sins many times. And what good has your killer and traitor Bender done?

          Svidomity always against the normalization of international relations of the Russian Federation and the West. You forget that Russia is the only country capable of destroying the USA, we occupy 1/6 of the land, we have industry and science (even if not in the old Soviet volume, but still have it) - put up with this, I will ALWAYS cooperate with us. but your Ukraine plays the role of a simple ** duck, just looking for someone to give more expensive.
          In trade, it was you who broke the connection with the Russian Federation! They refused to supply their motors, components, agricultural products - so as not to feed the "aggressor". We had to urgently build our own production facilities for similar goods - well, now even if you beg, nothing will shine for you, your products are uncompetitive. and your EU friends don't need your products either.
          You ask the better those who supply the resources and rightly wait for the experience of those who steal these resources, refuse to pay under contracts, go for blackmail and provocation? Do not you seriously understand? I decipher: you already got through your eternal begging and blackmail, the country of thieves and bandits. If you want to receive gas and don’t pay money for it, you have a freebie in your blood.
          Crimea itself left - it was the will of its people. But the DPR and LPR cannot decide what they want - give them independence, but so that the Russian Federation is constantly drawn into them. And your leadership, instead of organizing a peaceful negotiation process, is trying to blame all your mistakes on the ATO — although they could have stopped everything during that time, granted autonomy to the regions, stopped spreading rotten Russian — but after all, your looters need to plunder, and robbers must make any compromises basically not capable! You don’t need a normal life, you need a war, free money and a way to blackmail Russia.
          The front line runs along the city line, and again you lack the mind to understand that if you attack the city, then the weapons will be in the city line, simply because there is such a thing as the maximum range of fire! Your ukronatsisty beat to where technology was not in sight, shelling kindergartens and schools.
        2. Mic1969
          Mic1969 24 July 2016 09: 56
          +2
          Well, something like this.
  • Mic1969
    Mic1969 23 July 2016 21: 20
    0
    The article is wonderful. But links, proofs. And then, after all, Khokhl cannot be proved that he is a crest, because he is a crest.
  • fa2998
    fa2998 23 July 2016 21: 20
    0
    In the article, the phrase-Stalin's agrarian reform should deprive the kulaks of traditional sources of profit. And why are the kulaks bad? Modern farmers. Owners on the land, provide them with conditions, let them work. Subject them to feasible taxes, the more he gets, the more the state will receive. My two grandfathers were dispossessed, both by father and mother. So the rich middle peasants did not live like this. And the Bolsheviks, real kulaks ended, began to shake the "podkulachnikov", "sympathizing
    1. ILDM1986
      ILDM1986 24 July 2016 09: 51
      +3
      The main income of the kulaks was not from the cultivation of the land - the land was communal, and was divided by the number of eaters, so there was simply nowhere to take the surplus land - but from the lease of grain, cattle (horses) and agricultural implements to their less fortunate neighbors. Considering that the land plots were small (to put it mildly), the tenants could barely feed themselves, and they also had to give their share to the kulak. Therefore, the kulak was called a kulak, which in the village was essentially the organizer of an organized criminal group - as a rule, he had "podkulachniki" who were engaged in taking away property. From time to time, the poor were fed up with this position, and the astonished fist found itself on the pitchfork. During collectivization, as a rule, everyone who had more than 1 horse was recorded in fists, despite the fact that such people could not be fists. But show me a country where a powerful agriculture in the period of industrialization would have been created without sacrifices, yes there will not be such. All countries have gone through this process - originally agrarian states, with many small farms. the country was undergoing a crisis (the Great Depression as in the USA) or an artificial policy of the state (England) was carried out as a result of which the farms were forcibly enlarged under the rule of the farmer, and the dissatisfied died of hunger, ended up in prisons or went to cities to form the proletariat. All this led to social instability and an increase in crime. In the USSR, they did the opposite - they took the already existing communities, combined the farms of their components, transferred the MTS bases for their use. The dissenting kulaks for whom, and so everything was fine, did not fit into this process, and as a result, they were either resettled or included on a general basis in collective farms. Where they began to act against the evil state, which led to the famine of 32-33, and then they were "nizachto" repressed.
  • Attsxnumx
    23 July 2016 22: 17
    +4
    There are a lot of statements about raking out grain for the sake of industrialization. Is this so? The Soviet government also needed foreign currency, and grain was exported. Here are the propagandists of the "Holodomor" and yell: -Stalin took away all the grain from the hardworking Ukrainian peasants (personally, probably) and sold it abroad to build factories, make tanks on them and take over the whole world. A question for connoisseurs: how much grain did the USSR export from the 1932 harvest and could this cause famine? State procurements (grain handed over to the state) amounted to 18 million tons. Of this amount, 1932 million tons were exported in the second half of 1, in the first half of 1933 - 0,36 million tons. It should be borne in mind that grain (and other foodstuffs) was not only exported, but also imported. In particular, part of the export deliveries of the first half of 1932 (0,75 million tons) was withdrawn and in addition 0,2 million tons of wheat and rice were purchased. In total, in 1932 the USSR purchased 147,2 thousand head of cattle and 1,1 million small cattle, as well as 9,3 thousand tons of meat and meat products abroad. Food was imported and in 1933

    Someone may be surprised: why do we need to simultaneously export grain and buy it ourselves? This is a matter of economic feasibility. Let’s say, if it is possible to sell Altai grain to Japan expensively, and to buy cheap grain in Pskov region to compensate for the poor grain harvest in the Pskov Region, this is exactly what was done.

    So, the net grain export of the 1932 crop amounted to about 1 million tons. What part of the gross crop was this? Officially, the crop of 1932 was 69,9 million tons, that is, about 1,5% was exported. Well, where is starvation in the name of industrialization? For comparison: in 1913, with a harvest of 76,2 million tons (the territory and population of the empire were then larger), 9,7 million tons or 12,7% of the gross harvest was exported. In 1913, 460 kg of grain was produced per capita and 58,5 kg was exported. In 1932, these figures were, according to official figures, 435 and 10,5 kg, respectively.
  • Thompson
    Thompson 23 July 2016 22: 29
    -1
    Quote: revnagan
    Quote: Tatiana
    Thanks to the author for a useful and politically relevant article! I have also never heard of such details about the famine in / in Ukraine - I found out for the first time.

    This material will be "details" when the author provides links to documents, eyewitness testimonies from official sources. Documents on the table, please. Otherwise, it turns out "anti-censor".

    And have you been given much evidence of the famine organized by Stalin?
  • Thompson
    Thompson 23 July 2016 22: 42
    -1
    Quote: V.ic
    Quote: tatra
    (1) Enemies the communists... .
    (2) For as many as a quarter of a century of possession of the republics of the USSR, among enemies the communists ... against the communists.
    (3) .... the Bolsheviks-the communists.
    (4) In Soviet Russia and the USSR, enemies the communists.
    And after they seized the republics of the USSR, they doomed and doomed people to starvation for many months without paying salaries and pensions.

    MISCELLANEOUS! Why not mention the communists in the fifth (5) sentence? Less to you!

    Less to you. Because there were no communists anymore, only one sign remained
    1. tatra
      tatra 23 July 2016 23: 22
      -3
      Quote: Thompson
      Less to you. Because there were no communists anymore, only one sign remained

      Who was it? Almost 100 years after the October Revolution, on the territory of the USSR there are radically different mentality, intellects, in work, on the one hand, the Communists and their supporters, on the other, the enemies of the Communists.
      After all, the communists in 1917 and the enemies of the communists in 1991, equally took the country away from others, equally imposed their social system, their work and ideology on the country and the people, rose to the "top", dropping to the "bottom" those from whom the country was taken away ...
      But what is the cardinal difference in everything else, in the goals, results of the work, in what the communists and their supporters said and wrote, and the enemies of the communists.
      1. Thompson
        Thompson 23 July 2016 23: 44
        +1
        There is one caveat - there were Communists, there were their opponents and new ones appeared, with the name Communists, in the ranks of the Communists.
        Hope to make it clear smile
  • Attsxnumx
    23 July 2016 22: 50
    -1
    [quote = fa2998] And why are the fists bad?

    And what are good? Fists played an important role in the famine of 1932-1933.
    1. andrew-z
      andrew-z 23 July 2016 22: 59
      -1
      Please specify what role the kulaks played in organizing the famine?
      If there is a one-man farmer, with his farm, who grows bread (his property), from the sale of which he lives, then how can this contribute to hunger? Buy bread from him and dispose of it as you like, sell to the west, feed the workers in the cities, burn, drown, transfer to burnt collective farms - now it is the property of the state. And where are the fists?
  • Thompson
    Thompson 23 July 2016 23: 12
    -1
    Quote: revnagan
    ... and the envy of a fellow-house under the iron !!! ...

    Guess the keyword and reason for the link
  • Thompson
    Thompson 23 July 2016 23: 23
    -1
    Quote: tasha
    I agree in many ways. It is possible that the transition to a collective form of agriculture could have been carried out without such tragic consequences. Here, suppose, "the average village is 100 households, 4-5 kulaks, 8-10 well-to-do, 45-50 middle peasants and 35 poor households." Imagine, you are a XNUMX-thousander worker. And you voluntarily go to the village to organize a collective farm. How many rounds do you need for a revolver? wink This is the task ... If we take into account some features of peasant life, views on life, on property

    I recalled here. A year in 1987 or something. We went to the harvesting class, and tried to introduce KTU, the coefficient of labor participation, with us. Who worked like a day, the coefficient is bigger ... You know, it was interesting. The best results were among the most boisterous, arrogant and cunning, best friends of the appointed team leader, but not necessarily hardworking.

    Strange truth. But the middle peasants and kulaks are now called the most hard workers of that time.
    And for me it was they who were these very, most throaty, arrogant and cunning. It was just the capitalists in the village. And hard workers ... slaves peasants
  • Attsxnumx
    24 July 2016 00: 09
    0
    Quote: andrew-z
    Please specify what role the kulaks played in organizing the famine?
    If there is a one-man farmer, with his farm, who grows bread (his property), from the sale of which he lives, then how can this contribute to hunger? Buy bread from him and dispose of it as you like, sell to the west, feed the workers in the cities, burn, drown, transfer to burnt collective farms - now it is the property of the state. And where are the fists?


    The country's leadership understood that war was inevitable. It took a colossal effort to win a war that had not yet begun in 10 years. In the twentieth century, first of all, economies are at war. New realities came, and the fact that the peasants were "morally not ready" for them did not bother anyone. The country's leadership persistently tried to convey the situation to the consciousness of the peasants. However, no understanding was met: "You go, dear comrade Stalin, with your collective farms far away." Our grandfathers and great-grandfathers plowed a piece of land, a nurse, and bequeathed this wisdom to us. And the tractor - Duc about them, Father said in a sermon that everything is from the crafty ethno. But the wrong person was sent, and collective farms were created. How many greyhounds were dispossessed and sent to develop Siberia for permanent residence. After that, a theft of a fantastic scale began. Individual farmers, without any remorse, began to steal from collective farm fields (not their own). And the collective farmers themselves did not lag behind. After all, if everyone steals together (mutual guarantee), then from their point of view, there is nothing reprehensible in this. In these conditions, the Resolution of the Central Executive Committee and the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR of August 7, 1932 "On the Protection of Property of State Enterprises, Collective Farms and Cooperation and Strengthening Public (Socialist) Property" was adopted, popularly called the "Law on Three Spikelets". Stalin was the initiator of the innovation. For the theft of collective farm and cooperative property, theft of goods on railway and water transport, the law provided for the execution with confiscation of property, which, under extenuating circumstances, could be replaced by imprisonment for a period of at least 10 years with confiscation of property. As a "measure of judicial repression in cases of protecting collective farms and collective farmers from violence and threats from" kulak elements, "imprisonment for a term of 5 to 10 years was provided. Those convicted under this law were not subject to amnesty.
    Now they’ll probably say that the peasant, exhausted by her collective farm hard labor, sneaks to the field with scissors at night to cut off the heel of spikelets in order to feed the hungry children, when suddenly a dozen NKVD men jump out of the bushes, grab the poor fellow, sew the case and give her 10 years of camps (thanks that is not shooting) OGPU reports for 32. read about the extent of theft !!! The OGPU noted that the individual farmers, natives of collective farms and collective farmers who have few workdays were engaged in this fishery.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. tatra
      tatra 24 July 2016 00: 22
      +2
      Quote: Ats73
      After that the theft, fantastic in scale, began.

      From the summaries of those years:
      “In the village Lipetsk July 25 several groups of peasants - 10 or more people in each group - went to the nearby crops of the neighboring village. Alexandrovka and began to cut ears and, thus, scored 25 bags of ears ... "
      “Mass thefts of bread were noted on most collective farms. In sec. Ears of water in one individual farmer revealed about 20 poods of ears. In sec. Pogrom in the plunder of bread was attended by 40 sole farmers and about 100 collective farmers. 200 poods were found at the mill. "bread brought by individual farmers (stolen on the collective farm) ..."
      "In Tulovkeu, some collective farmers and individual farmers ... 15–20 pounds of stolen bread were found ... Theft of bread is carried out mainly by cutting ears from sheaves and threshing them ..."
      “On the Letosh collective farm ... not a single brigade went out to harvest grain for two days, collective farmers together with family members massively cut ears of rye for personal consumption (in two days it was cut from an area of ​​10 hectares)”.
      “In Berezovka every day, 50 collective farmers, going from the harvest, take with them a large sheaf. The stolen bread is ground in specially designed hand mills, of which 8 pieces have been seized in recent days. For the construction of these mills, in some cases, gears from reapers are stolen, incapacitating them. ”
      This is not so much in the sheaves. In order to bungle a penny mill, expensive agricultural machines are easily broken
  • Attsxnumx
    24 July 2016 00: 35
    +4
    "... In the Odessa region. 264 mills were identified that produced secret grinding. In one Dnipropetrovsk region, 29 secret mills were identified and 346 mills were allowed to operate without the permission of the Procurement Committee. In Vinnitsa region, 38 secret mills were identified that produce secret grinding of grain. .. Only in the indicated regions the GPU bodies discovered more than 20 secret mills in just 750 days. " (Memorandum of the Economic Department of the GPU of the Ukrainian SSR to the secretary of the Central Committee of the CP (b) U comrade Kosior dated December 10, 1932, taken from here).
    Come on, come on, tell us what kind of hunger it is, when in just 20 days in only three regions the Chekists discover 750 (seven hundred and fifty !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) mills. How many have not found yet? And how many "left" mills did they grind? Tons! We read the same note:

    "11 poods were squandered and plundered in 1800 mills of Ukrselkhozmukomolya in September-November (Zinovievsky district).
    - The board of the collective farm "Culture of the non-chewed" squandered 2900 poods of merchuk (N. Sanzharsky district).
    - At 20 mills of Kramatorsk, Artyomovsky, Kadievsky and Lugansk regions, merchuk embezzlement - 7.000 pounds (Donetsk region) was revealed.
    - In 22-m districts, squandering of merchuk 14.000 pounds was revealed (Kharkiv region).
    - At the Bratsk mill, a group of workers, mainly from kulaks closely connected with each other, systematically stealing merchuk, grind grain to the villagers for bribes in large quantities (Bratsk district).
    - ... The facts of the theft of merchuk took place at the Akimovskaya mill, where employees of the mill's office, by mutual conspiracy, sold the stolen grain on the private market at speculative prices reaching 100 rubles. per pood (Akimovsky district) ".

    from OGPU reports
    "... The mass embezzlement of bread has engulfed many villages. In the villages of Vyazovka and B. Moretz, embezzlement was carried out by whole groups, they sold the stolen bread or hid. . gendarme ... "
    "In the village of Dvoenki, about 1,5 thousand poods of grain have been stolen. Bread was taken away by collective farmers and individual farmers. A group of wealthy people (9 people) organized and systematically plundered collective farm bread ..."
    "In the village of Fedorovka, a pit for 1 thousand poods was discovered, in the village of Doctorovka - 2 pits for 2,4 thousand poods, in the village of Lyubavino - 1 pit for 493 poods. The initiators of the shelter of bread were kulaks and the wealthy ( 13 people) ".
    "In the village of Grimm, a group of kulaks (19 people) were systematically engaged in organized grain theft. More than 6 thousand poods were plundered. Bread was sold ... at speculative prices ..."
    Well, gentlemen, liberals, where are the hungry peasant women here, stealing ears of corn to save their children? What is 6 thousand poods? Pud is equal to 16.38 kg. Accordingly, the Grimm fists "cut" as much as 98 tons! This happened throughout the USSR, not only in Ukraine. Having familiarized myself with the facts, I cannot sympathize with the "innocent dispossessed". On the contrary, at first the humanism of the Soviet regime is surprising: in 1933, under the law on three ears of corn in the Ukrainian SSR, only 12,7 thousand people were convicted by general courts, although millions were stolen. But here you need to understand that if by the LAW you punish every culprit who stole at least a bag of grain, then it would be easier to enclose all the villages and villages with barbed wire and put a thief with machine guns on the towers. The power was limited to only indicative trials of individual kulaks. The measure had an effect. In 1935, only 730 people were convicted in the Ukrainian SSR under this law. So ... talking about the massive Stalinist repressions against the peasantry is tantamount to getting a tattoo "I and ... t" on your forehead.
  • staceyxe69
    staceyxe69 24 July 2016 01: 47
    0
    My novel number
    http://muslim.clit.pornpost.in/?entry-robin
    ghana false religious butchery star
  • Barsukvad
    Barsukvad 24 July 2016 11: 13
    +1
    Interesting. After reading on the site a number of articles about ultra-patriotism and its viciousness, I was surprised at the reaction of the enlightened public to this ... this work written by a person who calls himself an "expert".
    Dear members of the same forum, I ask you to compare and evaluate the factology from an ordinary person and an "expert" by reading an article on an equally respected resource: https://aftershock.news/?q=node/355227
    I think sapienti sat.
  • Horn
    Horn 24 July 2016 12: 34
    +2
    Normal people already knew that. They also knew about the purchase of grain in Persia (Iran) to save the starving. And Svidomo puppy-eats and our liberoid clicks you can not convince. At least spit in their eyes, they will say that something is God's dew!
  • Yasondinalt
    Yasondinalt 24 July 2016 14: 07
    -1
    I do not understand those who are against the article, the Russians didn’t starve? Cakes ate and washed down with lemonade?