Rostec: Ak-12 tests are still ongoing

The tests of the AK-12 are still ongoing, and upon their completion, the military will decide on the operation weapons in troops, transmits RIA News message from Rostec CEO Sergey Chemezov.

Recall that the Ministry of Defense will have to make a choice between the Kalashnikov assault rifle and the AEK-971 production plant them. Degtyarev.

“There the tests are still going on, they must be completed now. The tests will end and then the Ministry of Defense will decide whether to include the AK-12 into the “Warrior” combat gear, ”

Chemezov told reporters.

Earlier, Deputy Defense Minister Borisov said that the “automatic machine for the“ Warrior ”will be determined during trial operation,” which takes place in all military districts.

Help Agency: The “Warrior” complex (second generation combat equipment) combines modern small arms, effective protection kits, reconnaissance and communications equipment - about ten different subsystems. In the state defense order, a total of 2015 thousand sets were procured in 2016 and 100. ”

Comments

[Wolka]

It seems the story repeats itself with both the Ka-50 (52) and the Mi-28 ...

[cniza]

Agency reference: “The Ratnik complex (second generation combat equipment) combines modern small arms, effective protection kits, reconnaissance and communications equipment - about ten different subsystems. In the state defense order, it was planned to purchase in 2015 and 2016 a total of 100 thousand sets. "

Our army is strengthening and it pleases.

[Andrey Yuryevich]

Rostec: Ak-12 tests are still ongoing

How much water can you pour? decide and write! (one too, got enough)

[koosss]

Kalash pulled by the ears, which is not clear

[AlexSam]

Mr. Chemezov made a good face ... as if it is not known which machine will show the best results and which one will be adopted ...

and one more thing that has nothing to do with the article: some p * indos experts were very enthusiastic about the AK-108 ... is this model no better than the AK-12?

[Illiterate]

It is not correct to compare an automatic machine with balanced automation (AK 107, AK 108) and an automatic machine without AK 12.

[berezin1987]

Why is it not correct? Functional purpose is the same for them.

[Illiterate]

Well, yes, and even shoots)) By the way, the slingshot also then gets on a par with them.

[DarkMatter]

It is not correct to compare an automatic machine with balanced automation (AK 107, AK 108) and an automatic machine without AK 12.

And why then compared with AEK?

[Illiterate]

They are not compared but tested ... so that in the end one of them was in the army of the Russian Federation ... And again they will win the survivability of the machine and not the accuracy)

[Mountain shooter]

So what does he have with accuracy? Have you achieved at least 1.5 MOA in solitary? And then strip-eared - can, but we are not?

[Alexander 3]

The Kalashnikov brand must confirm and confirm its best qualities and demand in the world.

[Vladimirets]

Quote: Alexander 3

must confirm and confirms his best qualities

But the AK-12 does not confirm and does not confirm, that’s an infection.

[Skubudu]

I can not resist ...
I hope the AK-12 is a half measure, for a transition period of no more than 10 years.
That the machine itself, that the 5.45x39 cartridge for it does not meet the requirements for arming one of the best armies in the world.

Need a new complex automatic + cartridge + sighting system

[Vadim237]

Better automatic - grenade launcher complex.

[berezin1987]

It is a pity that they closed the topic on the development of weapons under the cartridge 6x49 mm. The recoil momentum of the cartridge is approximately at the level of 7,62x39 mm, the mass is the same. When using non-standard solutions, it would be possible to obtain an automatic machine with good accuracy parameters, using a fairly powerful cartridge. After all, they made the same AEK-971 chambered for 7,62 model 43.

[Orionvit]

I don’t understand why you do not like the 5.45x39 cartridge? Ammunition can be invented for a long time and a lot, for each specific combat mission, and weapons system. But why reinvent the wheel? In addition to special tasks, in the army there is still such a thing as unification. Why produce and adopt several types of small arms of various calibers? And what about the old stockpiles of weapons and ammunition? Especially in Russia, issues of ammunition are handled by a special institute, where I am more than sure that far from stupid people are sitting, and everything that is possible has already been developed and tested. Always choose the best option. For the army, so far 5.45x39 is precisely the best; for special operations, there are other cartridges and other weapons.

[berezin1987]

Ammunition 5,45x39 mm at the time of appearance and until recently was very good. For the war against the technologically backward and poor enemy, the AK-74 is still an excellent weapon. Problems can arise in a collision with a well-equipped enemy armor. Modern body armor can withstand the penetration of the B-32 armor-piercing bullet from the SVD (energy greater than 3500 j) from a distance of 10 meters. The most common 5,45 mm 7Н10 and 7Н22 cartridges today are unable to guarantee the penetration of the chest armor plate of modern western vests from 200-300 m distance. The use of 7Н24 cartridges with tungsten carbide core is not the only adequate response to these challenges, it is not enough. The energy reserve of 5,45 mm cartridges is no longer enough to effectively combat protected targets and this trend will intensify with progress in the field of armor protection.

[Operator]

The reduced energy per 1 sq. Mm of the midsection of the 7H24 cartridge bullet is exactly two times less than that of the cartridge 6x49 mm. Those. a high-pulse cartridge even with a steel core gives a breakdown of armor penetration from increasing the armor resistance of boron carbide one to two decades in advance.

You can, of course, use not the tungsten carbide but the tungsten itself as the core material of the 7Н24 cartridge, but given the consumption of small arms ammunition in a large-scale conflict, this will be an unbearable burden for the economy of any country.

Therefore, the rejection of low-pulse cartridges is a matter of the near future.

[gladcu2]

berezin

Modern warfare does not often allow clashes in the format of soldier-soldier. They mainly work with artillery and detailed means.

In the city and in the forest, the contact distance is within 200-. 400. In the forest up to 100m.

When changing ammunition of the same caliber, it is necessary to change the barrel. Since changes in the DENSITY of the bullet material entail a violation of the stabilization of the bullet’s flight in a certain section of the trajectory.

Therefore, to believe that replacing the ammunition and you can easily cope with the task is to engage in self-deception. It is necessary to change the barrel, with a different step of cutting the barrel.

[75 hammer]

Again, it will not be clear, after all, one automatic, or two in service, with the same cartridge, you can customize the samples for certain operating conditions, as it seems to me. And to use everyone where it is more profitable.

[Abbra]

Being an old sniper and shooter, I suggest making a small wooden corrugated "underbelly" in the place where the fighter's left hand is in the photo. Then the barrel with such shooting will lie in the hand, and his soul will appear ... Sorry, colleagues, for thoughts.

[Xmyp]

OK, everyone will run around with what they have.
Tales about the choice of machines for 15 years as he walks.

[CRP]

AN-94 is already waiting for its neighbor in arms - one more "klikusha".
Better for the money, they equipped the AK-74M with optical sights, otherwise the bar hangs idle.

[Abbra]

Optics for any variation of AK, sorry colleague, it's like a perfume for a commando. NAH is there, explain? AK - a melee and medium combat vehicle. He is perfect. Our pilot, the thrice Hero of the Soviet Union, A. Pokryshkin, recalls how he first met the downed Messer 109. He was delighted in the sense that the Me-109 was a working machine, a SKY SOLDIER, where there is NOT A SINGLE extra thing-gimmicks. AK and optical sight ... BLN ...

[CRP]

Dear, optics is not only a means of aiming, but also a means of observation. At a distance of 100 meters, an enemy in the bushes may not be very visible, especially at dusk. Optics, even 1.5-2 times, will help in detection.

Believe me, at a short distance it’s easier to shoot offhand, and to compete with a machine gun nest or a sniper is a big deal.

In addition, the US military is very much confused on individual equipment and not in vain. M4A1 + ACOG = beautiful machine that fights no worse than AK. Why don't AK realize its full potential?

[Abbra]

I read somewhere that there is such a thing - binoculars. In general, if you are right, then you need to make a small bribe for AK - S-500 ...

[gladcu2]

CRP

Optics optics discord. On the American segment of YouTube, I met many interesting comparative reviews of various optics. So much detailed that it is surprising how the authors of the reviews are sophisticated in unnoticed little things.
So, the choice of optics is not an idle question. Caring for optics is more than serious.

If you look at the photo, you can see that it’s hard for a soldier to catch the sight, because the optics are high and the soldier is not fixed with his cheek on the butt. On the other hand, if a soldier is worn with goggles, then he may not fit in them between the butt and the aiming line.

Then, optics is so many nuances, probably about 15. That optical sight that is visible in the photo can be criticized and criticized.

[CRP]

Firstly, the photo is not optics, but a collimator sight.
Secondly, optics are wide-angle - the problem of focal length is leveled.
Thirdly, there is a military acceptance, there is a huge amount of domestic production. There are many people who receive money for their work in terms of supply.

In general, there was much to spend money on, but not on obscure R&D.

[Abbra]

In response to your minus, CRP, I put you a plus. Be prudent, corporal! Do not anger those who slept with AK-nickname in an embrace ...

[CRP]

Dear, I have 3 comments and I can’t give anyone ratings yet. Leave your suspiciousness.

You wrote that you are an old sniper and shooter. I would like to ask where the ordinary binoculars pick up? There are different situations and it is better to have something at a dangerous moment than not to have and be blind.

In addition, there was an article here not so long ago, about the AK mechanical sector sight - the essence of the article was that the dimensions of the target in the war (and not the training ground) are the enemy’s head. The dimensions are so small for 100 meters that not everyone will get straight away.

[Abbra]

Now, if every soldier in the Russian army becomes an independent and self-sufficient combat unit, such as Arnold S., then I agree ... And now - let the unit commander have one binoculars. Do you have an idea to install optics on a Makarov pistol?

Fight, this is such a thing that, excuse me, there is no time to fart. And to you - in the hands of SVD. And forward for the orders! Yours faithfully

[Samurai3X]

VOOOOT! Speak up.
The Ministry of Defense and the military reception, where Chechen veterans and current army officers work, should be taken into account. After all, the whole Internet marshal will not beat garbage?

[Prapor-527]

I do not know the "veterans" in the Ministry of Defense, but with the "military representatives" (we call them "the customer's representative") I come across every day, those are still "army men" :-)

[Witness 45]

And what does the military representative have to do with it? They simply accept, in accordance with the requirements, the products that are put into production, if they are flintlocks, then they will check the compliance with GOST flintlocks, and military experience has nothing to do with it.

[Samurai3X]

Ignorance of the material does not exempt from liability.
The army accepts the goods and the army will write a long list of completions at its discretion.
My father (and I, respectively) is personally acquainted with the person who wrote the reviews and whom they eventually listened to on the occasion of the AN-94 / AEK-971. Moreover, they pressed hard on him, but he still wrote that the products were absolutely unsuitable for the army. As a result, special forces are now limitedly used, and their units are reluctant to take these machines. "Too gentle."
Or do you think the Kremlin regiment is experiencing a complex there?

[berezin1987]

Most likely AK-12 will be chosen as simpler and cheaper. But I like the A-545 machine gun more. By accuracy of fire bursts and ergonomics, it is better than AK. Is it really impossible to simply transfer the brainchild of Kovrovites to production in Izhevsk?

[Operator]

Both contestants do not meet the technical requirements of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation:
~ AK-12 accuracy (lack of balance);
~ A-545 in terms of reliability and service life (a gear transmission between the balancer and the shutter seizes from a powder burn-out, three times less resource of gears and rifled strips of the shutter and balancer than all other elements of the machine design).

[berezin1987]

It was rumored that the problem with a low gear resource could be solved and brought up to 10 thousand shots. It would be nice, of course, to bring it to the indicators of the resource of the trunk, but it will take time. AK also did not immediately receive its super reliability and survivability, it was brought about 5 years from the date of adoption. Most of the shortcomings were eliminated only in the AKM Sample 59.

[Operator]

A gear gear operating in an environment of sticky powder burnout and abrasive (particles of quartz, silicon, etc.) by definition has a much shorter life than other elements of the reloading mechanism (shutter and shutter frame).

More 5000 rounds of gear life does not increase, which means that during the service life of the machine (15000 rounds) a set of balancer, bolt frame and gears in A-545 will be replaced twice.

The cost of the A-545 life cycle will be higher not only due to the complicated design of the reloading mechanism, but also due to the two-fold replacement during the operation of expensive spare parts. Cost growth will be from 4 to 5 times with an increase in the accuracy of automatic shooting by only 1,5 times.

Moreover, the latter will be in demand only until the transition to a high-pulse cartridge.

[Abbra]

I agree,berezin1987 !!! Five hundred and forty-fifth is impressive. He is like a beloved woman, although he is a man. With gears, they’ll come up with something ...

[Vladimirets]

Quote: Operator

Both contestants do not meet the technical requirements of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation:
~ AK-12 accuracy (lack of balance);
~ A-545 in terms of reliability and service life (a gear transmission between the balancer and the shutter seizes from a powder burn-out, three times less resource of gears and rifled strips of the shutter and balancer than all other elements of the machine design).

Have you participated in the tests of both samples?

[Operator]

Have you worked in the tourism industry and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, participated in international mathematical olympiads, etc.?

[Witness 45]

Aren't we too perplexing ourselves with accuracy? Probably, for special operations, under certain conditions, a well-trained professional will be able to use a 10-15% advantage in accuracy, but in a combined arms battle, when, as is usually the case, there are columns of dust, smoke over the battlefield, when you have more than one hundred meters or Combine more than one kilometer of movement with dashes, then overcoming obstacles, then with embarkation and disembarkation from an APC and all this in slush or heat, when sweat floods the eyes, and the pulse goes off scale and there is no special opportunity to "target" of my personal experience while still serving in the Soviet Army, when in two years I had to take part in tactical exercises with live fire more than once, the main thing is the reliability and reliability of the weapon, and, of course, the effective action of the bullet on the target.

[gladcu2]

Operator

In my opinion, reliability is more important than some over sufficient accuracy. Moreover, army ammunition will never meet sniper requirements. And there is absolutely no need for this.

For the army, accuracy is a matter of tenth importance. Why are they so attached to this accuracy? For the average soldier, accuracy is compensated by wearable ammunition. And such soldiers do not depart far from supply centers.

For specialists, soldiers, the army has enough special barrels, optics and ammunition.

[avt]

Quote: berezin1987

But I like the A-545 Kovrov machine gun more.

Well, I have a roll A-91M, quite a decent rifle-grenade launcher complex. BUT, according to the criterion of cost-effectiveness and the performance of an assault rifle with minimal moving parts during disassembly for a mass army with a reserve for a mobile resource, not special units

Quote: berezin1987

Most likely, the AK-12 will be chosen as simpler and cheaper.

that is why

Quote: berezin1987

It’s a pity that they closed the topic on the development of weapons under the cartridge 6x49 mm

Imagine only as a first approximation WHAT it is to rearm an entire army to a new caliber. It is simpler and more effective to immediately demand some kind of blaster to invent .... or some kind of aggregate with liquid explosives spitting bullets for a couple of kilometers.

[Operator]

While the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation was competing with machine guns for a low-pulse cartridge, ceramic armor vests of the ESAPI standard (withstanding armor-piercing bullets of this cartridge) and assault rifles, providing for re-registration under a high-pulse cartridge, managed to appear in NATO armies.

[berezin1987]

NATO members do not have a high-pulse cartridge for use in a machine with acceptable burst accuracy. They have already tried to use 7,62X51 mm in the G3, FAL and M14, but nothing came of it because of the huge recoil momentum. Need a cartridge with impulse parameters at the level of 7,62x39 mm.

[Operator]

Nato-vts plan to abandon firing bursts of automatic rifles when switching to a high-pulse cartridge. For this purpose, manual / single machine guns are intended.

The ability to fire in bursts of automatic rifles of the caliber 7,62xNUMX is maintained for the purpose of firing at short distances (for example, in urban environments).

In this sense, we have a big handicap in front of NATO in the form of the rifle cartridge 6x49, the momentum of which is only 1 kgf, while the reduced energy per unit midship area is 109 J / sq. Mm against 72 J / sq. Mm for 7,62x51.

[Abbra]

Damn, shoot at the heads! Between the edge of the helmet and the throat. That’s the whole trouble.

[Operator]

Better yet, in the eye like a squirrel

[silverwolf88]

And you don’t have to rush into the matter of choice ... The main thing is to get the result on the way out ... then the machine guns in the troops then live a long life ... a lot depends on the shooter on the battlefield ... and the main weapons should correspond to the tasks of modern combat in the best images .. .
There will be two complexes ... or, taking into account special units, more ... it doesn’t matter (with the unification of ammunition) ...
And so any choice brings compromises ... there is no perfect weapon for all tasks ...

[Izotovp]

The closest I think to the ideal is ADS, only under a different cartridge.

[berezin1987]

ADF is needed for combat swimmers to replace APS underwater and AK-74 on land. Why is every soldier needed? The weapon is quite expensive and specific.

[Izotovp]

ADS as a platform. For the rest, a simplified version.

[masiya]

In modern times, it is difficult to give up the feeling that not the most optimal and best item will be chosen, but suitable for certain manufacturers and supervising manufacturers of defense industry workers, that’s strange.

[tomket]

Quote: masiya

In modern times, it is difficult to give up the feeling that not the most optimal and best item will be chosen, but suitable for certain manufacturers and supervising manufacturers of defense industry workers, that’s strange.

The campaign of the Defense Ministry itself cannot decide what the army is now and for whom there should be a weapon, for professionals, with an ideal fit of parts, body kit and ergonomics, or for soldiers of mass appeal, with all that it implies ...

[CRP]

In a good way, you just need to understand: all this is a divorce and cut money. If we would like to increase combat readiness, we would begin by reviewing the manuals and manuals, together with the costs of training firing and exercises, not only of the title units and formations, but of all military personnel.

[Abbra]

Well, you can’t argue here ...

[Skubudu]

Judging by the video of the war in Syria, machine guns of caliber 7.62x54 and higher set the tone in the battles, vehicles are armored whenever possible, positions are strengthened, in cities firing is conducted through holes in the wall ...
The armies of the NATO bloc are strenuously armoring personnel.
A soldier with a 5.45x39 caliber assault rifle in his hands, in modern warfare - the most weakly armed combat unit on the field of modern warfare. 7.62x39 is also not a panacea.

[berezin1987]

For NATO with their 5,56 mm, the situation is no better than ours.

[Siberia 9444]

I like this "body kit"

[100-2]

cartridges in the drum bryakat ... if in the trench on the defensive pillar it will go and in the city or in the forest it is not good .. it seems to have jumped off a meter quietly and this hu-nya "breakdown" here and comrades are already burning with desire with a butt for this "breakdown" bump

[Siberia 9444]

When the battle is in the city you will not hear a comrade nearby! If you take buildings, there grenades will burst every second, you need tight fire and snipers need other weapons quietly. In the forest, you need to be quiet. And if I have to choose tambourines for clinging. And for the mat you can be banned

[sharp-lad]

With the "Scorpion" it would be cooler!

[Todessichel]

Everyone can't share a piece of the cake, who the beans will be picking.
Statements to continue testing follow one after another, as are statements about their completion.
Missiles are not even tested so much.
Are they crazy there ....
Undercover bickering continues, no one wants to give up ...

[Uzer 13.]

I don’t see any reason to adopt an automatic with a rack-and-pinion gear. Moreover, with such a low resource even in the conditions of testing at the training ground. And why complicate the weapons so much? You can remodel the base AK a little and get the results no worse. 30 shots were announced overhaul. It turns out that a light bullet AK 000, having a speed 5,45% higher, wears out the barrel twice as fast?

[Max_Bauder]

And yet, I do not understand what a cat for yay ... Faberge pull something ?! Take it finally

[Voenoboz]

We accept both, everyone has enough work.

[AlexSam]

Tell me, knowledgeable people, in the AK-107,108, a rack-and-pinion mechanism is also used? I just don’t understand why he doesn’t have a place in the army if the A-545 is so ruinous for officials and businessmen from Rostec ... and another question: is the AK-400 based on the AK-12?

[Operator]

The AK-107 / 108 balanced recharge mechanism also uses a rack and pinion gear, which synchronizes the movement of the balancer and the bolt frame.
Therefore, it has the same drawbacks as the A-545 - the high cost of production and operation, the sensitivity to pollution and the small resource of the reloading mechanism.

[DesToeR]

Who is in the subject, please tell me: what prevents to bring the AK-74 to the level of the AK-12? Install a telescopic butt that folds to the right on the stock AK-74 and replace / upgrade the fore-end and the trim on the receiver with the Weaver rail? What is the advantage of the AK-12 over the AK-74? And can not this advantage be leveled by the "body kit" for the AK-74?

[berezin1987]

The AK-12 will not be able to fully match the AK-74 even after modernization. Another thing is that it is more profitable to upgrade old Kalashi than to produce new ones with slightly better characteristics.

[noWAR]

Quote: noWAR

Quote: DesToeR

What is the advantage of AK

Joke!

[Illiterate]

Several weapons (AK 107, AEK 971, AK12) Larry Vickers' opinion about them.