Military Review

On a new round

154
Helicopters with their flight ranges, the high cost of transporting people and goods, as well as local airline planes are unable to provide transportation in areas with an undeveloped aerodrome network. At the same time, measures should be taken to reduce the cost of tickets. It will provide only the commissioning of new competitive aircraft of domestic production. In this regard, it is necessary to understand what types of aircraft can solve the tasks.

45 thousands of settlements in which more than 12 million people live, are deprived of year-round access to transport infrastructure. In five regions, there is no railway connection, and in 14, only by plane or helicopter can you reach the mainland. At the same time, today there are half as many airports as at the end of the 80s. An analysis of the situation shows that regional airlines need an aircraft with a capacity of 50 – 60 passengers, capable of operating in difficult conditions and capable of landing and taking off from unpaved airfields.

Distances between the airports of the Far North, Siberia and the Far East average 1200 kilometers, and then the economy takes over: to use helicopters to transport people and goods with their speeds and range becomes very expensive. And airplanes on local airlines will not be able to provide the entire volume of air travel, because the airfield network has fallen into disrepair.

Heavenly slug

Helicopters - transport medium speed and short distances. One of the advantages over airplanes is use where the latter cannot land and take off. The level of excellence of both the helicopter and the aircraft to achieve the required values ​​of speed and range in terms of economic feasibility can be estimated by aerodynamic quality (K). In modern transport and passenger helicopters, Kmax is reached at speeds of 230 – 240 kilometers per hour and is within 5 – 5,5 units. The subsonic IL-86 and Tu-154 Kmax is 15, and the IL-96-300 - 19.

Aerodynamic quality (the ratio of lift to frontal resistance in a continuous coordinate system at a given angle of attack) is about three times less for transport-passenger helicopters than for aircraft of similar purpose, and is achieved at lower (two to three times) speeds. The greater the cruising speed, the higher the fuel efficiency, the farther the flight distance and the lower the cost of the flight hour.

The weight of an empty helicopter is about 17 percent more than an airplane of the same category as it. This is because the transmission of torque from the engine to the rotor and balancing its reactive torque requires a relatively heavy, cumbersome and expensive transmission.

The overhead costs of engine power to ensure the operation of the transmission and its systems amount to about four percent, to balance the rotor torque of the rotor - up to 10 – 12 percent. Therefore, the weight of the payload and fuel by helicopter is significantly less than that of an airplane.

The main criterion for the profitability of air travel is the cost per ton and passenger-kilometer. It depends on the cruising speed and the corresponding values ​​of aerodynamic quality and flight range. According to these indicators, the helicopter is significantly inferior. But it has significant advantages over the aircraft: to land and take off vertically, hover over the landing area, fly at low speeds.

The new domestic passenger Mi-38 develops 275 kilometers per hour. Exceeding the threshold in 300 kilometers per hour is accompanied by an intensive growth of the core and wave resistance of the rotor blades, to overcome which will require first a significant and then unacceptable increase in the power of the power plant. There are other factors that do not allow to achieve a significant increase in the speed of the helicopter.

The range of the Mi-38 with the maximum number of passengers with standard reserve and aeronavigation fuel reserves per 30 minutes reaches approximately 500 kilometers. All possibilities for increasing the cruising speed and the corresponding indicators of aerodynamic quality and flight range are almost exhausted.

Hence a simple conclusion: existing both domestic and foreign helicopters are unable to provide air services in areas of the country with an undeveloped aerodrome network.

However, in aviation companies of the world do not give up hope to bring a high-speed helicopter to the light. Firms in the US and Europe are conducting expensive research trying to come up with the possibility of creating a car that can develop up to 500 kilometers per hour. Russian Helicopters JSC joined this race with the concept models of the promising Ka-92 and Mi-X1.

The outstanding domestic helicopter designer M. L. Mil and his colleagues back in 1966 year, justified the maximum speed capabilities of the helicopter ("Helicopters. Calculation and design. Aerodynamics"). Nevertheless, at two international exhibitions HeliRussia, representatives of domestic design bureaus demonstrated concept models of their promising passenger cars. It was decided that the Mil Design Bureau should concentrate on the development of the project of the classic single-rotor scheme of the average weight category B-37 with a cruising speed of 350 – 370 kilometers per hour. And the Kamov Design Bureau will continue research work on the creation of a flying laboratory for the development of technical solutions when creating a high-speed coaxial helicopter. It is planned to confirm the cruising speed of 350 – 370 kilometers per hour on the B-37 and acceptable values ​​of aerodynamic quality and flight range on an experimental helicopter with a small wing, created on the basis of the Mi-24K.

A new generation of specialists - B-37 developers are advancing on the same rake as their predecessors on the Mi-6 helicopter, who were trying to achieve high values ​​of cruising speed and flight range.

The wing of the Mi-6 is of small elongation, and in the presence of a wing that slightly relieved the rotor at high flight speeds, the level of vibrations was quite high. In this regard, on serial machines, in order to avoid exceeding the vibration norms, the cruising speed of flight was limited to 250 kilometers per hour. This is despite the fact that the world speed record was set on the Mi-6 - 340 kilometers per hour.

Therefore, achieving a cruising speed of 350 – 370 kilometers per hour on the B-37 is unrealizable. This helicopter can only repeat the achieved result.

Screw is preparing to jump

For the Far North, Siberia and the Far East, the high cruising speed of the helicopter itself is not a priority, but the practical flight range and reasonable airfare. The B-37 helicopter clearly does not have such characteristics. And will not possess.

On a new round


But the transport problem needs to be solved, and it must be technically sound and economically viable. It is worth remembering the autogyro, which was the forerunner of a helicopter - the undeservedly forgotten creation of the Spanish engineer Juan de la Sierva.

The general thing that an autogyro has to do with a helicopter is a bearing screw. The difference lies in the fact that the rotor at the helicopter is driven from the engine through a gearbox and creates both lifting and pulling force during flight, which provides it with forward movement. Necessary for the flight of the gyroplane creates a propeller-driven installation with a pushing (pulling) propeller, and the lifting force is a mooring rotor driven by the energy of the oncoming air flow.

Autogyro compared to the helicopter best uses the power of the power plant to create lift and thrust. He has no power losses on the rotor drive in flight and balancing its reactive moment.

All autogyros can be attributed to three types: winged, wingless and with a jump take-off. Over time, the designers preferred the second type. At low flight speeds, the main rotor was not inferior to the wing in creating lift. Consequently, it complicated the construction of the autogyro, increased its harmful resistance and the weight of the empty vehicle.

In the third type, the main rotor at the minimum pitch was unwound to the specified rotational speed using a mechanical transmission coupled with the engine. The required torque is about 40 times less than that of a helicopter of the same weight category at hover. Therefore, the weight of the transmission on the autogyro is about two percent of the empty vehicle. The helicopter, we recall, 17 percent. After promotion of the rotor of the autogyro at the start, before the take-off, this transmission is turned off.

Attention is drawn to the simplicity of the design of the autogyro and its technical operation. Unlike a helicopter, there is no gearbox and other units and transmission elements for transmitting torque in flight from the engine to the rotor. The listed units are highly loaded in flight, have a limited resource, require constant monitoring, maintenance, and periodic replacement during operation.

Having flashed a number of unsurpassed qualities, autogyros gave way to airplanes and helicopters, which had other capabilities that were primarily demanded by the military.

Now there is a certain interest in autogyros. The modern level of scientific knowledge and mastered technologies allows us to take the next step towards the creation of a combined aircraft (CLA) with an autorizing rotor and wing having increased cruising speed and flight range compared to a helicopter. The autogyro with jump take-off can be considered as a prototype of the passenger KLAH. It provides take-off and landing without run.

Attempts to create a passenger combined-wing rotary-wing aircraft with vertical takeoff and landing on the basis of the helicopter rotor and the wing of the aircraft (rotary-wing) did not succeed. The combination of a helicopter rotor + wing was practically unrealizable due to its structural complexity and high cost.

The idea of ​​creating a passenger spacecraft with a takeoff-landing without run-up on the basis of an auto-rotor rotor-type propeller type and an airplane wing hitherto remained unclaimed.

The high-speed, long-range KLA differs from all existing vehicles and numerous projects using a number of key ideas. Its carrier system includes an aircraft wing, thrusters, and a gyro-type rotor. For its rotation uses the energy of the incoming air flow.

Recall that the aerodynamic quality of the wing of the aircraft at cruising speed is significantly higher than that of the rotor. That is why in the forward-looking KLA, preference for creating lift at high speeds should be given to the wing. To do this, it is enough to unload the rotor by reducing the overall pitch and frequency of its rotation.

When designing, the main rotor SC is optimized for take-off and landing without run-up, and the wing is designed to create the necessary lift that balances the weight of the aircraft and to achieve the maximum aerodynamic quality. The implementation of these ideas will provide twice the cruising speed and tripled range when transporting the same cargo compared to modern helicopters of the same purpose and weight.

Of particular note is the high flight safety of spacecraft. Such a device, like a gyroplane, has good stability and controllability; its piloting technique is simple. It is much more reliable on take-offs, landings and maneuvering in the air, it is insured against such critical flight modes as stalling or spin.

Attention should be paid to the high reliability of the autograting rotor. It operates in more favorable conditions for variable loads and vibrations than in a helicopter. The rotor of the combined aircraft is maximally loaded during takeoff and landing. At speeds over 100 – 120 kilometers per hour, his work is greatly facilitated.

Main rotor blades, made of polymer composite materials, and their bearingless attachment to the hub provide the rotor with a resource comparable to an aircraft wing.

The high reliability and safety of using autograting rotors on autogyros shows statistics. So, by 1933, the 130 autogyro transported tens of thousands of passengers over a distance of more than 4 000 000 kilometers, their total flight time was 35 000 hours. For ten years of operation of serial machines there was not a single catastrophe, which is a record flight safety.

Combination of merits

Helicopters and airplanes do not compete, but complement each other's capabilities. But there are areas where the use of both is either economically unprofitable, or it is impossible to practically purely. Consequently, a KLA is needed, which has all the advantages of a helicopter and an airplane. He will not compete with them, and replace these machines where they are unable to perform long-overdue tasks.

The combined aircraft is distinguished by a carrier system, which includes an aircraft wing and an autotizing rotor-bearing autogyro type propeller. In essence, it is a hybrid of an airplane and an autogyro, which uses a new way to take off without a takeoff. After the launch of the main rotor at the start, a vertical lift of the vehicle is carried out until the landing gear wheels leave the platform by increasing its overall pitch. At the same time, the pilot moves the engines to the take-off position in order to create the maximum thrust force of the propellers (screws of variable pitch) so that the run on the take-off is short. The aerodynamic qualities of the spacecraft and the short take-off / landing aircraft are commensurate.

Unlike helicopters, KLA's are able to provide communication with a maximum passenger load at a distance of up to 1400 kilometers, and in regions with poor transportation infrastructure, up to 700 kilometers from the base aerodromes, without refueling.
Author:
Originator:
http://vpk-news.ru/articles/31499
154 comments
Ad

Subscribe to our Telegram channel, regularly additional information about the special operation in Ukraine, a large amount of information, videos, something that does not fall on the site: https://t.me/topwar_official

Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. Same lech
    Same lech 24 July 2016 07: 30
    +5
    Unlike helicopters, KLA's are able to provide communication with a maximum passenger load at a distance of up to 1400 kilometers, and in regions with poor transportation infrastructure, up to 700 kilometers from the base aerodromes, without refueling.


    Nice ... but who will do it?

    A strong-willed decision will not work ... STALIN is not ... to start an innovation, a lot of money is needed now ... and DIMON clearly said there is no money, but you hold on there.
    And so the article is interesting and promising direction ... unfortunately in the future ... eh RUSSIA MATUSHA. sad
    1. demchuk.ig
      demchuk.ig 24 July 2016 08: 38
      +1
      Quote: The same LYOKHA
      Nice ... but who will do it?

      Again another "blah blah blah"! Just write something (this has already been written a hundred times)! And things are still there!
      1. Basarev
        Basarev 24 July 2016 10: 13
        +6
        The article looks like an advertisement. But in general - in such matters the airship is much more profitable. It carries a lot, far and safe, takes off vertically, eats extremely little fuel - what else is needed?
        1. Verdun
          Verdun 24 July 2016 15: 37
          +5
          Quote: Basarev
          The article looks like an advertisement. But in general - in such matters the airship is much more profitable.

          In this matter I fully support you. Rigid and semi-rigid helium airships are absolutely safe, and modern technologies make the airship easy to operate and even more economical. There is no doubt that the development of this type of aircraft is constrained by unfair competition of aircraft manufacturing corporations. For small settlements that are not equipped with capital runways, an airship would be a real salvation.
          1. berezin1987
            berezin1987 25 July 2016 01: 55
            +2
            Airships are very sensitive to weather conditions when landing. But they still have the prospect of transporting extra heavy and oversized cargo, but the volume of such airships is huge. Imagine an airship with a carrying capacity of 1000 tons.
            1. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 25 July 2016 02: 21
              0
              Less sensitive than airplanes. If it’s hard to imagine, build a smaller one, otherwise you immediately swung four An-225s. lol
              1. electrooleg
                electrooleg 23 September 2016 19: 22
                0
                The people need airships, but they invent some nonsense laughing
      2. Lyubopyatov
        Lyubopyatov 24 July 2016 17: 05
        +1
        Because for every new and sound national economic idea there is a grave digger Poghosyan.
        1. berezin1987
          berezin1987 25 July 2016 01: 58
          +2
          And then Poghosyan? Poghosyan has done quite a lot for Sukhoi Design Bureau. Who is to blame that the lobby of other aircraft manufacturers was weaker. In 90, there was not enough money for everyone and I had to choose one, it turned out to be Pavel Sukhoi Design Bureau.
      3. Alex_Rarog
        Alex_Rarog 24 July 2016 18: 53
        +3
        The article looks like not an advertisement but a delirium! A mixture of helicopter, gyroplane and airplane! Panopticon !!! It's easier then to create your own analogue of the v-22 osprey than a miracle with three propellers, which through the "reducer" so unloved by the author will take off in a helicopter! For the gyroplane needs a run! Let's remember the derezable better! They are safe! And with modern technologies, their flight / hour will cost a penny!
        1. berezin1987
          berezin1987 25 July 2016 02: 01
          +1
          Helium in airships is quite expensive, because mined from a rare mineral. I don’t remember his name now. And nobody will risk using hydrogen now, although it is cheap enough in production and creates a lot of lift.
          1. Simpsonian
            Simpsonian 25 July 2016 02: 18
            0
            It is usually produced in passing from gas fields and has long been in short supply. Hydrogen can only be used in cargo airships if you like ...
  2. Bayonet
    Bayonet 24 July 2016 07: 37
    +3
    The main disadvantage of gyroplanes is the lower efficiency of using the power plant, which is why, with equal flight weight and speed, the gyroplane needs a more powerful engine than an airplane. There are other specific disadvantages of these devices.
    1. Lyubopyatov
      Lyubopyatov 24 July 2016 17: 09
      +5
      In the magazine "Marine Fleet" six years ago there was an article about a hybrid aircraft for the Far North, which combined an airship, an airplane and a helicopter. Prototypes have been made, efficiency and practicality have been proven, but ... Unfortunately, I can not give a link, I did not remember the name of the project.
      Here, I found: A.I. Filimonov. AERODROME-FREE WITH AEROSTATIC UNLOADING AIRCRAFT AS A NEW CLASS OF AIRCRAFT AND ITS USE IN SOLVING THE NATIONAL AND SOCIAL TASKS OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION ("BARS").
      1. Bayonet
        Bayonet 24 July 2016 20: 03
        +1
        Quote: Lyubopyatov
        Prototypes were made, cost-effectiveness and practicality proved, but ...

        The design of the Filimonov hybrid airship was not embodied "in the metal." Despite this, the media has repeatedly mistakenly stated as a “prototype hybrid airship” a similar in layout, gas-free aircraft (prototype of the Bella-1 aerodrome-free aircraft). See photo - Bella 1
  3. avg-mgn
    avg-mgn 24 July 2016 07: 59
    +4
    each vegetable has its own garden. Where it is not possible to operate aircraft, it is not customary to speculate about efficiency.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 24 July 2016 08: 19
      +6
      This is not accepted for those who are lazy or make problems for others.

      Where the plane does not cope, everything will be done by a tiltrotor or a high-speed helicopter, which, due to the coaxial rotor design, will be better done by the Kamov, but (therefore, so that they are not there), Mil is promoting.

      On coastal and transoceanic directions - ekranoplan.

      The ekranoplanes were in the USSR, the canopy of the Canadians back in 1965 as much as 50 years ago

      All problems were solved a hundred years ago by airships, the German LZ-127 flew around the world several times, including the Soviet Arctic and Siberia. Yes, it is slower than an airplane, but it is the cheapest mode of transport in general. Sea transport is even more expensive, because you have to overcome the resistance of water which is 800 times denser. The plane flies in thin air, but in its case a runway is needed and the high ticket price is a fee for speed (fuel consumption).

      Autogyro is much cheaper than a helicopter, but it does not know how to work completely without a strip.
  4. PKK
    PKK 24 July 2016 08: 27
    0
    Well, autogyro, so autogyro. It's time to make it and not to deal with theory. It will be useful to everyone and the military in the first place. Moreover, it is safer.
    1. Bayonet
      Bayonet 24 July 2016 08: 48
      +5
      Quote: PKK
      . It’s time to make it, and not to deal with the theory.

      Have already done smile The gyroplane was invented by the Spanish engineer Juan de la Cerva in 1919, its gyroplane S-4 made its first flight on January 9, 1923. hi
      1. venaya
        venaya 24 July 2016 11: 22
        +4
        Bayonet: Have already done - Of course, what the experimental samples have already done is really good, another thing is that until now such devices have neither commercial use, nor use in the military field, anywhere, and this is a serious gap. Actually, the article itself is dedicated to the search for technical solutions to improve the fuel and economic performance of aircraft heavier than air and, accordingly, the possible range of a real flight for use in the absence of prepared runways. These disadvantages include the lack of the possibility of freezing, like in helicopters, or less fuel efficiency than in an airplane. But here's why to hang, if you usually just need to move around. The article clearly states that the country's GDP network has been destroyed for the possibility of using conventional airplanes, and it is simply not possible to build them at every step in the economy. So the aircraft of this type in the best way ensure the implementation of the task, especially aircraft of the combined type. Only konvertoplanes can be a real competitor of this type of aircraft, but they are somewhat more expensive and here it is always necessary to compare the real economy of both types of aircraft.
  5. Bayonet
    Bayonet 24 July 2016 08: 46
    +3
    A simple question, if everything is so simple and reliable - why are gyros not widely used? Before scattering the minuses, it would be nice to understand the essence of the problem. hi
    1. berezin1987
      berezin1987 25 July 2016 02: 11
      0
      I am not very versed in the design of gyroplanes, but it still has a drawback in the form of a large dependence of the altitude on speed than a helicopter or an airplane. The gyroplane will not be able to hang at an altitude of 5 km, but the Mi-38 can. The dynamic ceiling of some helicopters exceeds 6 km, which is very good for working in mountainous areas.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 25 July 2016 02: 15
        +2
        the gyro cannot hang at all
      3. Signore Tomato
        Signore Tomato 27 July 2016 07: 39
        +3
        Quote: berezin1987
        Autogyro cannot hang at an altitude of 5 km,


        Ahem, I'm sorry.
        Too shy to ask - A nakua goat button accordion? I mean - why should a passenger aircraft hang at an altitude of 5 km?

        Answers like "What if he runs out of fuel?" are not accepted due to the complete delusional response. ))))
        1. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 29 July 2016 19: 09
          +1
          Quote: Signor Tomato
          Answers like "What if he runs out of fuel?" are not accepted due to the complete delusional response. ))))


          People also live and work or relax in the mountains. Will this work?
    2. SVVP
      SVVP 12 August 2016 17: 06
      0
      Quote: Bayonet
      why gyros are not widespread?

      Only because of the low weight return of the rotor, low aerobatic ability and "inability" to hover on the helicopter - in total, it is unprofitable.
      1. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 12 August 2016 17: 35
        0
        until we learned how to make reliable helicopters were very widespread
        1. SVVP
          SVVP 12 August 2016 17: 59
          0
          because they refused that
          Quote: SVVP
          in total, unprofitable.
        2. gridasov
          gridasov 13 July 2017 22: 34
          0
          A helicopter, like an airplane, will never be reliable on the modern principles of the propellers because the propellers operate in the higher the speed of rotation of the blades, the lower the quality factor and energy efficiency. Therefore, it is only on new physical principles that development and the path to the future are possible.
          1. SVVP
            SVVP 15 July 2017 09: 49
            0
            Quote: gridasov
            A helicopter, like an airplane, will never be reliable on modern principles of propulsion



            Do you have alien technology? winked Do you know the recipe for Hindu Prana? lol "Lucifer" ??? belay
            1. gridasov
              gridasov 15 July 2017 12: 27
              0
              Just found new methods of analysis of complex physical. processes, including hydro-gas dynamics. Therefore, everything is built on mathematical justifications.
    3. SVVP
      SVVP 24 September 2016 07: 43
      0
      Quote: Bayonet
      A simple question, if everything is so simple and reliable - why are gyros not widely used?

      I list the disadvantages:
      1. Irrational, due to large losses in aerodynamic characteristics.
      2. The inability of classic AF to take off, by helicopter... Those that are equipped with a pre-roll for a "jump" take-off are unreliable, low-resource, expensive, plus, additional rise in price, additional complexity, additional weight.

      A classic example, when you decide that you shouldn’t walk along the path, it’s




      They built, with all the "bells and whistles" at that time, a large gyroplane, flew, calculated everything as expected, and ... was not allowed into the series. So the entire resource flew out as a single model and release ...
  6. Egor-dis
    Egor-dis 24 July 2016 09: 50
    0
    It would be better if they combined them with balloons.
  7. avg-mgn
    avg-mgn 24 July 2016 09: 52
    +4
    Double gyroplane designed by Yuri Korneev.
    The link to the article, I recommend reading, is very interesting:
    http://www.sdelanounas.ru/blogs/18407/
  8. Rostislav
    Rostislav 24 July 2016 11: 46
    0
    Ensuring the transport accessibility of the North is vital. The fact that engineers are thinking about this problem is already pleasing.
    It is necessary to solve quickly. In my opinion, the ekranoplan can optimally solve this problem.
  9. chunga-changa
    chunga-changa 24 July 2016 11: 48
    +4
    This is all nonsense, a military helicopter needs 99% of a high-speed helicopter, and 1% of various VIPs for show-offs.
    In the west, the niche of helicopters is occupied by small and private aircraft. Canada, Alaska, Africa, Australia are doing well, we should also develop this industry. Simplification of registration, operation, obtaining permits and other bureaucracy, reduction of import duties or licensed production of the most popular passenger and transport aircraft MA, the problem of communications in Siberia and in the far north would be solved very quickly. By the way, in the far north people live with rare exceptions along the coast of the seas or on the banks of rivers, the installation of floats on airplanes easily solves the problem of airfields, in winter - skiing.
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 24 July 2016 12: 32
      +2
      With conventional helicopters, the same is only for show-off / military?
      This is also all necessary, but not a single Cessna is steeper than the An-2. Do not compare Alaska and Siberia which is much more.
      1. chunga-changa
        chunga-changa 24 July 2016 14: 38
        +2
        Well, yes, how many private helicopters do we have, and who bought them besides VIPs, and why did they need them besides Ponte?
        As for tsesna and An-2, patriotism is certainly fine, but for example the S-208 of the development of the 80s, and the An-2 of the development of the 40s and in all respects the S-208 covers the An-2 like a sheep’s bull. Moreover, our S-208s are being purchased, and the world's best An-2 is somehow not very paradox.
        About big siberia. Why is "small" Alaska served by planes, and Siberia, "which is many times larger", needs to be served by helicopters? What are helicopters more economical, maybe they have a longer range, or an hour of flight is cheaper?
        1. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 24 July 2016 23: 03
          0
          Why is it necessary private, and why did you get that there will be less speed?
          Almost the entire best An-2 in the world by foreigners was bought up in Russia due to its excellent landing characteristics and maintainable glider.

          Then, so that it does not develop properly ...
  10. KAA_57
    KAA_57 24 July 2016 12: 17
    +3
    "At the same time, there are half the number of airports today than in the late 80s."
    "Half less" is 0,5 times less; - 2 times more.
    If the author wants to talk about reducing the number, one should write either "half as much" or "half as much."
  11. Rosinmn
    Rosinmn 24 July 2016 15: 02
    +4
    Quote: Bayonet
    A simple question, if everything is so simple and reliable - why are gyros not widely used?

    Air transportation in remote areas is unprofitable. The main efforts of aircraft designers around the world are aimed at profitable mass transportation. For the traditional self-supporting transport, the most profitable is to build an airfield and an airplane. Helicopters and convertiplanes are beneficial to industry in rare special cases. If it were not for the military, with its large demands, the development of helicopters would be much worse and less efficient. And in sparsely populated areas, the use of helicopters is simply a solution to the problem by affordable means. And affordable helicopters came from the military. Purely civilian helicopters are appearing more and more often, but even they are on the foundation of developed military industry and military science. The helicopter in the camp depended earlier, and now depends on the orders of military helicopters for the battlefield. But military gyros do not build. There is no experience, no development, no production, not in the head, not at the hearing ... Therefore, there are no gyroplanes in the camps.

    In order for the direction of small transportation to work, it is necessary that the subsidies go not through the district official, who determines how much and where the person will fly and comes up with rules for good reasons for flying. Broke his leg - fly to the district center. I broke my finger - you won’t fly. It is necessary that the passenger himself buys a ticket, and the cost of the ticket would be partially compensated by the state. Then it will be profitable for carriers to increase the volume of transportations and civil, rather than military, designers will be asked how to make transportation cheaper. The enthusiasm of caring people, like the author of the article, is half the success, but only half. Need economic interest. The corruption risks that accompany subsidies are also clear ... Autogyros may be good, but without the opportunity to make a profit they will not develop. The military does not need them. They could have arisen in the planned economy of the USSR. (If it had been possible to overcome the bureaucratic thickets and include their construction in the long-term plan.)

    The article is good. The disadvantages are not given the aerodynamic quality of the gyroplane. Separately, the screw and the structure as a whole. And the energy costs for take-off are not shown. For short routes, take-off losses are crucial.

    Maybe you need to stop on airplanes, bring their aerodynamic quality and other indicators to the most optimal value for small traffic, but first solve the problems with airfields? Make a lot of unpaved airfields. First, let a micro-bulldozer machine fly to a distant airfield. Check, prepare the strip, drive away the bear and invite the plane to land. Communication is now everywhere. Passengers will take off for a plane, not for a regular schedule ... In the world, technologies have fundamentally changed. What yesterday seemed fantastic, today is reality.

    Military deck aircraft with poor minimum speeds take off from a deck one and a half hundred meters long and land on it. Is it possible to make a hundred-meter strip of airy slow-moving boat? There will be airfields, there will be private jets ....
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 24 July 2016 23: 09
      0
      It is beautiful to make women and children sit in the deck rope "arrestor", for normal flights of conventional aircraft the runway should be no less than they do, for regular and mass operation of large specialized aircraft with a short takeoff and landing - at least 750m
  12. Decabrev
    Decabrev 24 July 2016 23: 43
    +1
    Of course, I am not a specialist in airships. My specialists will answer me.
    Like icing airships?
    How about flying in difficult weather conditions?
    How about flying in strong headwinds?
    How about landing in SMU?
    It seems to be about the far north, with the weather there, as if ...
    By the way, the Americans before the war had helium airships, but something they broke with the Americans.
    Thanks in advance for the competent answers.
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 25 July 2016 00: 25
      +3
      Better than that of airplanes - with the same de-icers, the high-speed air pressure is not the same, the front edge of the wing is absent, in case you can even slow down, go out and chop it off.
      With weather conditions as well as in airplanes, the speed is sufficient to fly around bad weather.
      With a strong headwind, like an aerostat, they change altitude to one at which it is absent, or at which a tail.
      Landing is much easier than with planes. approach to the site at near-zero speed and the concept of "crosswind" is absent ...

      Before AWACS E-3 "Sentry" and ASW P-3 "Orion", airships and anti-aircraft missiles of the USA used airships en masse, that is, much later than WW2.
      During the war, not a single convoy escorted by an American airship was attacked by a German submarine.

      The biggest disaster in the wrong hands was with the American helium airship, in second place was the crookedly made English R-100, the German hydrogen Hindenburg was destroyed in the USA as a result of sabotage, the FBI only recently confirmed this ...
      LZ-126 flew a lot, far, regularly and without crash.
      including by orders of the Soviet government, the Germans really left the cards for themselves ...
      1. gridasov
        gridasov 13 July 2017 22: 45
        0
        Everything is like a child’s reasoning. Air flows are never straightforward. They are jet-like and always form a system of optimal energy interactions. Therefore, as soon as the flow velocity increases and becomes turbulent, the aircraft experiences loads from opposed flows. Computers are not capable of modeling such flows because a person himself must know the basic principles of their movement. In general, even the elementary processes of surface ionization flowing through it by air or hydrodynamic flows, you just need to understand and see .. This means that all is only for ideal weather conditions .. Nature is very unstable. Therefore, we need propulsors with a very higher work potential than processes in a natural environment so that you can talk about reliability and safety
  13. rubin6286
    rubin6286 25 July 2016 01: 16
    +2
    The article is interesting, informative, and the comments show the interest of the readership to the topic under discussion. Marshal Voroshilov, not being "very competent militarily," said the famous phrase in 1936: "Victory in the air is forged on the ground." He was absolutely right before bothering with his head about projects and projects, empty talk about airships, gyroplanes, high-speed helicopters, their advantages and disadvantages, etc. etc., you need to understand in detail what exactly is on this very “land” - in what condition is the regional airfield network, what is the volume of passenger and cargo transportation, intensity, economic feasibility, climatic conditions, etc. etc. Then it becomes clear:
    1). Who and what you need to carry, where, why, how much and for how much, how often.
    2). Regional aviation is a matter exclusively of the state. Small and medium-sized businesses will not pull it. Costs will never pay off and will only increase as aircraft operate.
    3). To carry people and loads of the same mass - from the point of view of the economy, is not the same thing. For people to fly, we need affordable prices, acceptable service, a certain degree of reliability and safety of air traffic. For small aircraft in our country, priority is not high cruising speed, but the practical range and reasonable airfare.
    4). In terms of reliability, the more complex the system, the higher its probability of failure. A spacecraft will never be more reliable than a conventional aircraft (airplane, helicopter), because it is more difficult to design. Anyone who writes that the spacecraft is easy to control, argues about autorotation, etc., has never been at the helm. After one “hard” helicopter landing, this nonsense goes away, unless of course a person remains alive.

    It seems to me that there is no new round in the Russian helicopter industry yet. There have always been many beautiful pictures and articles in print, but in reality?

    In my opinion, the state should revive the Ministry of Civil Aviation of the Russian Federation, recreate the appropriate structures in the center and regions, solve the problem of training personnel for the flight-lifting and flight technical staff, aerodrome services, production and repair facilities, restore everything that was intentionally and stupidly ruined by outright thieves, crooks and amateurs. Only then will it be possible to form an order for the production of various aircraft, airplanes, helicopters, airships, convertiplanes, which will be in demand, to a certain extent effective and competitive. Research institutes, design bureaus, universities, factories will work normally, and not “survive”. I do not see another way yet.
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 25 July 2016 03: 58
      +1
      An ordinary helicopter is more complicated than a normal tiltrotor or a high-speed helicopter - whoever does not know this is a delimiter ... Airships have just low cruising speed and are many times cheaper than airplanes, since to create lifting power you do not need to develop high speed and burn kerosene - they stay in air with the lifting force of a carrier gas which is lighter than it, and in general their engines do not even work on liquid hydrocarbon fuel, but on modified natural gas lol
      1. rubin6286
        rubin6286 25 July 2016 11: 20
        +2
        Dear Simpsonian! You have no idea about complex systems and the probabilistic characteristics of assessing the reliability of aircraft and your reasoning is very superficial. Only those who really designed, piloted or operated can compare the complexity of controlling aircraft and their design as a whole. You lack special knowledge and specialized (aviation) education. An ordinary helicopter cannot be more complicated than a high-speed helicopter, if only because to achieve higher speed you need a more powerful engine with a reliable and durable gearbox, or a set of engines that are always more difficult for a pilot to control, even taking into account the EMF. As for the airship, instead of talking about low cruising speed, the lifting force of carrier gas, the fuel used in its engines, one needs to imagine the whole complex of problems associated with the operation of such aircraft in the regions. Neither at the regional, nor at the local level, Russia is not ready for this now.
        In a word, as V. Mayakovsky said:
        “To build, you need to know
        To know, we must learn! ”
        1. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 25 July 2016 12: 01
          +1
          And how are you going to assess the reliability of "no one knows what"? lol For since you continue to write this, you simply do not know how a "normal" helicopter works, which means what is the difference from it much simpler than it is a high-speed one!
          Chatter from a complex of buzzwords you have - an airship with regular passenger traffic from the "infrastructure", at best, moors to the mast. For cargo transportation, it can also be anchored, with a winch pulling.
        2. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 25 July 2016 12: 01
          0
          And how are you going to assess the reliability of "no one knows what"? lol For since you continue to write this, you simply do not know how a "normal" helicopter works, which means what is the difference from it much simpler than it is a high-speed one!
          Chatter from a complex of buzzwords you have - an airship with regular passenger traffic from the "infrastructure", at best, moors to the mast. For cargo transportation, it can also be anchored, with a winch pulling.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  14. Rosinmn
    Rosinmn 25 July 2016 02: 00
    +1
    Quote: rubin6286
    In my opinion, the state should revive the Ministry of Civil Aviation of the Russian Federation, recreate the relevant structures

    Those. allocate money. This is not possible in the foreseeable future. The state has no money.
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 25 July 2016 04: 03
      +1
      Quote: rubin6286
      He was absolutely right before bothering with his head about projects and projects, empty talk about airships, gyroplanes, high-speed helicopters, their advantages and disadvantages, etc. etc.,

      those. came and hung "stamps" ...

      There are many enthusiasts and companies that are trying to do this, on the contrary, government departments oppose them, and the point here is not only in squeezing bribes.
    2. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 25 July 2016 04: 03
      0
      Quote: rubin6286
      He was absolutely right before bothering with his head about projects and projects, empty talk about airships, gyroplanes, high-speed helicopters, their advantages and disadvantages, etc. etc.,

      those. came and hung "stamps" ...

      There are many enthusiasts and companies that are trying to do this, on the contrary, government departments oppose them, and the point here is not only in squeezing bribes.
      1. rubin6286
        rubin6286 25 July 2016 11: 55
        0
        Aircraft building today is not the lot of individuals and groups of enthusiasts who "saw a plywood aircraft mole with a rubber motor in the shed." There is an industrial complex in the country where the most technological industries are united into corporations - aircraft building, shipbuilding, etc. etc. They carry out the implementation of certain projects within the framework of the state order. There is a government decree, a state order, funding for it, a circle of responsible persons has been determined - these are the main directions for solving any problem.
        1. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 25 July 2016 12: 05
          +2
          and there, in the licensing authority, the derzhimords sit on which, if they come proactively "from below", no bribe will be enough, simply because when their Lyons club was received (or their boss) they were told not to let anything Russian ...
        2. The comment was deleted.
    3. rubin6286
      rubin6286 25 July 2016 11: 33
      0
      Mikhail Nikolaevich! If the state does not implement the minimum measures that I wrote in my comment, the problem of regional and local aviation will not be solved. It is not only and not so much that replacing the An-24 with the Il-112 or restoring the production of the An-2 under the new TVS-2C index, “riveting” new helicopters, and making air transportation expedient, cost-effective and affordable. For almost 25 years, Russian business could not do this and for a very long time it will not be able for economic, technological and technical reasons.
      1. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 25 July 2016 11: 49
        +2
        Quote: rubin6286
        If the state does not implement that minimum measure,

        What other complexes of measures? ... Yes, government officials are doing everything to ensure that this never happens!
        together with the banks, which they "helped" from the budget, which did not and do not give funds, not only for leasing domestic conventional aircraft (they give for leasing imported ones), but even for renting domestic agricultural harvesters! laughing
      2. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 25 July 2016 11: 49
        0
        Quote: rubin6286
        If the state does not implement that minimum measure,

        What other complexes of measures? ... Yes, government officials are doing everything to ensure that this never happens!
        together with the banks, which they "helped" from the budget, which did not and do not give funds, not only for leasing domestic conventional aircraft (they give for leasing imported ones), but even for renting domestic agricultural harvesters! laughing
  15. Rosinmn
    Rosinmn 25 July 2016 02: 34
    0
    Quote: Simpsonian
    It is beautiful to make women and children sit in the deck rope "arrestor", for normal flights of conventional aircraft the runway should be no less than they do, for regular and mass operation of large specialized aircraft with a short takeoff and landing - at least 750m

    The An-2 has an take-off / mileage of 105/140 m. The characteristics of the aircraft indicate that the runway for it is 500 m. Looked at the standards. The shortest runway for Class E aerodromes is 500 meters. Yes, the rules must be respected.
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 25 July 2016 03: 33
      0
      Yes, otherwise there will be accidents ...
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 25 July 2016 06: 37
      0
      An-2 in terms of passenger capacity is 2-3 times smaller than the usual Mi-8, it is not a regional but a local plane.
  16. Rosinmn
    Rosinmn 28 July 2016 00: 32
    0
    Quote: Simpsonian
    An-2 in terms of passenger capacity is 2-3 times smaller than the usual Mi-8, it is not a regional but a local plane.

    I read an article by the chairman of the Council of Ministers of Yakutia. He writes that Yakutia is equal in area to India. The article is just about the republican message:
    https://finobzor.ru/17940-kak-podrezayut-krylya-rossiyskoy-aviacii.html
    His findings are that the most in demand are airplanes with 50 seats. That is, An-24. All other small planes are also needed. But the planes approved by the government of Superjet and 21 are not needed in the north. He says that the number of potential passengers is very large, but tickets are very expensive. Need subsidies.

    Quote: rubin6286
    make air travel appropriate, cost-effective and affordable. For almost 25 years, Russian business could not do this and for a very long time it will not be able for economic, technological and technical reasons.


    I remain of my opinion that things will only move if the operation is profitable. With tickets available for passengers. Due to subsidies or low cost of operation. I read an article that in Penza, amateurs make for sale a single-seat glider.
    http://www.aerostreet.ru/
    They achieved a quality of 40 units. (Almost the limit.)
    Very cheap 800 rubles. Now they are experimenting with electric motors, which can fly about 000 km. At the cost of electricity for charging batteries, the cost of one flight is 100 rubles. It is necessary to create a robot pilot and a single or double cheap air taxi without a driver will become a reality. Autopilot was used in Buran, now on cars, they want on ships ...
    By the way, quality 40 means that if you raise this glider during take-off with the help of a starting winch 2,5 km in height, then it will fly 100 km without a motor planning (without searching for upward flows). No batteries in such quantity will be needed and the ticket price will be reduced by half.
    1. SVVP
      SVVP 8 August 2016 19: 48
      0
      Quote: RosinMN
      All other small planes are also needed.

      ... why not a tiltrotor?
      Quote: RosinMN
      I remain of my opinion that things will only move if the operation is profitable. With tickets available for passengers.

      My project is fully consistent with your conditions. How do you look at the fact that in the four-seater version, with 54 liters of fuel - 1500 km of flight? It is possible to create an apparatus of greater passenger capacity on the basis of the same rotors, say, up to 9 seats.
  17. SVVP
    SVVP 6 August 2016 19: 17
    +1
    They would take to build a tiltrotor - neither questions nor disputes would arise at all. No, absolutely! No.
    Take at least a foreign civilian analogue that will appear on the market in 2017 (certification is being completed)


    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 6 August 2016 21: 10
      0
      In Canada, the CL-84 was built in 1965.
      1. SVVP
        SVVP 7 August 2016 10: 11
        0
        Tiltwing, in such a configuration, does not mean much - the screws are small, for a complete convertiplane ...
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 7 August 2016 10: 16
          0
          Strange, but flew better and much earlier than Osprey
          1. SVVP
            SVVP 7 August 2016 11: 45
            0
            A study of propellers conducted at NASA showed that a compromise solution could be found and a propeller called the “unloaded propeller” could be created, for which a relatively high relative efficiency could be obtained in vertical take-off and landing modes and, at the same time, high efficiency in horizontal flight (r | = 0,65 - 0,85) to speeds corresponding to the number M = 0,8. It was found that in the range of flight speeds from 0 to 400 km / h, changes in the rotational speed of the propellers are not required, with an increase in speeds from 400 to 640 km / h, it is desirable, and at speeds of more than 640 km / h it is necessary. Propellers must be articulated for the blades to reduce the stress in the blades and bending moments.


            Here it is golden mean - so the problem is better solved! smile

            The first flight was completed in January 1947 (test pilot Boon Guyton). In subsequent flights, a record speed for that time was reached - 811 km / h at an altitude of 8800 m (test pilot Richard Burovz). The possibility of vertical take-off and hovering flight with a reduced take-off mass was demonstrated.


            The text is taken here: http://www.k2x2.info/transport_i_aviacija/amerikanskie_samolety_vertikalnogo_vzl


            eta / p11.php
            1. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 7 August 2016 12: 20
              0
              This is not a convertiplane; study the Canadian issue in more detail.
              1. SVVP
                SVVP 7 August 2016 15: 57
                +2
                Quote: Simpsonian
                This is not convertiplanes, study the issue with Canadian more.

                Who are you and where, "a"lied ??? laughing
                Turnkey planes are convertible aircraftIe convertible, i.e. and helicopterand plane - in one person.
                The simplest explanation from Wiki:
                A tiltrotor is an aircraft with rotary propellers (usually propellers) that, when taking off and landing, operate as lifting, and in horizontal flight, as pulling; while the lifting force is provided by the wing of an airplane type. Typically, motors rotate with screws, but only screws can rotate.


                A tiltrotor is an aircraft with rotary propellers, which, when taking off and landing, operate as lifting, and in horizontal flight, as pulling ones (the lifting force is provided by an airplane-type wing). The design is essentially very close to a vertical take-off and landing aircraft (VTOL), but they are usually referred to as rotary-wing aircraft due to the design features of the propellers and their large diameter, comparable to the wingspan. Large tiltrotor propellers help it with vertical take-off, but in horizontal flight they become less efficient compared to smaller-diameter propellers of a traditional airplane.
                Tiltrotor.

                - academic dictionary
                1. Simpsonian
                  Simpsonian 7 August 2016 16: 06
                  0
                  What was quoted from the link above is a screw fighter.

                  A tiltrotor with a rotary wing and medium-diameter screws gives higher speed and the possibility of better operation from short stripes. For Canadians, the Canadians used two such machines that worked perfectly for eight years to play in the 70s and did not return both. But now the Americans have a convertiplane and the Canadians (and no one else) have them.
                  1. SVVP
                    SVVP 7 August 2016 16: 26
                    0
                    Quote: Simpsonian
                    What was quoted from the link above is a screw fighter.

                    And what prevents us from the experience of just such a propeller, to apply it in the tiltwing principle, convertiplanes? You "saw" some let in my interpretation of what has been expressed? wink
                    1. The comment was deleted.
                    2. Simpsonian
                      Simpsonian 7 August 2016 17: 08
                      0
                      Why do you think that its not like that and that Canadian is worse?
                      1. SVVP
                        SVVP 7 August 2016 17: 23
                        +1
                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        Why do you think that its not like that and that Canadian is worse?

                        There is a reason, and quite significant - I am the author of this idea.
                        If you notice / notice, the publication is too fresh, 2015. And here is a link to the international search engine https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=WO&NR=2015094020A3&
                        KC = A3 & FT = D
                      2. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 7 August 2016 17: 44
                        0
                        In a tiltrotor with large propellers, they will prevent short take-off or landing with the wing set to an intermediate position. He, too, will not reach high speed because of the inability to give them great speed.
                      3. SVVP
                        SVVP 7 August 2016 17: 52
                        0
                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        In a tiltrotor with large propellers, they will prevent short take-off or landing with the wing set to an intermediate position.

                        Let me ask you, why "short takeoff or landing" - "helicopter"?

                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        He, too, will not reach high speed because of the inability to give them great speed.


                        ... You have missed one important detail:
                        с jet driven rotors

                        the speed of the periphery (cantilever parts of the rotor) which is the maximum calculated, no less than 350 m / s - which is fully consistent with NASA research
                      4. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 7 August 2016 18: 04
                        0
                        In order to take and carry a larger load if possible.

                        that's when they go to supersonic, and the most troubles begin
                        if the tiltrotor is double or so then they are kind of small
                      5. SVVP
                        SVVP 7 August 2016 18: 20
                        0
                        Quote: SVVP
                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        In order to take and carry a larger load if possible.

                        that's when they go to supersonic, and the most troubles begin
                        if the tiltrotor is double or so then they are kind of small

                        You believe that this "news" for those who invent such things, construct, design and even build? feel

                        Oh how you think badly of us winked lol
                      6. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 7 August 2016 18: 28
                        0
                        having propellers like a regular helicopter is at least a loss in weight and complexity of the gearbox, and it would be interesting to know how it will be controlled using horizontal swashplate propellers in horizontal flight
                      7. SVVP
                        SVVP 7 August 2016 18: 39
                        0
                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        having screws like a regular helicopter means at least a loss in weight and complexity of the gearbox,

                        Right! That's the bet. But there is one more thing - SU! When it comes to a classic helicopter, it is it and its components that you have listed that make up half of the cost of the helicopter and about a quarter of the empty mass.
                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        and it would be interesting to know how it will be using horizontal swashplate machines alone controlled in horizontal flight

                        By changing the thrust vectors - just like in
                      8. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 7 August 2016 18: 45
                        0
                        in the bird, the feathers on the tail deviate
                      9. SVVP
                        SVVP 9 August 2016 06: 59
                        0
                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        in the bird, the feathers on the tail deviate

                        Proved by ornithologists, this is more of a reflex movement - it has very little effect on aerodynamics smile
                      10. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 9 August 2016 14: 47
                        0
                        ornithologists or arodynamics?
                      11. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 9 August 2016 14: 47
                        0
                        ornithologists or arodynamics?
                      12. SVVP
                        SVVP 11 August 2016 08: 05
                        0
                        And those, and those - this is a junction of sciences, which is called bionics smile
                      13. SVVP
                        SVVP 7 August 2016 18: 25
                        0
                        Max VM, calculated, for a double room - 800 kg, with an empty weight of not more than 200 kg, moreover, payload ~ 500 kg. Rotor proved that it is real.
                      14. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 7 August 2016 18: 35
                        0
                        just the same, why refuse the same rudder and altitude, especially if there are stabilizers for them?
                      15. SVVP
                        SVVP 7 August 2016 19: 41
                        0
                        And what you do not like just passive flight stabilization, like the feathering of an arrow, despite the fact that there are completely no difficulties with the rudders and their wiring? Despite the fact that the helicopter has absolutely no stabilizers, keels and rudders ("an annoying exception" wink - coaxial, and even then, their use is significant, mainly at very low speeds), this is not considered their disadvantages smile
                      16. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 7 August 2016 19: 46
                        0
                        The fact that the tiltrotor has an airplane mode.
                      17. SVVP
                        SVVP 9 August 2016 06: 57
                        0
                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        The fact that the tiltrotor has an airplane mode.

                        Do not understand? Explain. winked
                        I can only add that the convertiplane AP has a much greater impact on handling than the small areas of the rudders of an airplane. Changing the thrust vector, through the effect on the rotor through the AP, Kurochkin F.P. proved not only by calculations - but also practically, they have efforts on a five-meter rotor of different types, of the order of 90 kilo Newton (which corresponds to 9177.445 kilogram-force)
                      18. SVVP
                        SVVP 9 August 2016 07: 17
                        0
                        Quote: SVVP
                        about 90 kilo Newton

                        I will explain that this power is affected only by the power of the control system! hi
                      19. The comment was deleted.
                      20. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 9 August 2016 14: 50
                        0
                        Why such difficulties? They pull the helmsman when the rudders fail.
                      21. SVVP
                        SVVP 11 August 2016 08: 11
                        0
                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        Why such difficulties? They pull the helmsman when the rudders fail.

                        And you never met cases when the secondary - becomes chief? This is exactly the case! good
                        The rudders have too small an area for the load, a small effort - and therefore the efforts to change the position in space are small. And these are not "difficulties" - this is nature.
                      22. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 11 August 2016 16: 59
                        0
                        Even the gyroscopic moment has not been taken into account, the blades will have to be attributed at least half a meter from the cab, remember the former overlap of the blades on the Ka-50
                      23. SVVP
                        SVVP 11 August 2016 17: 38
                        0
                        The gyroscopic moment has been taken into account, and at a sufficient distance the periphery of the blades, even if they were on an articulated suspension, and not on a torsion bar - and even that would have been a margin of at least 10 cm. The torsion bar gives a margin of 15 cm, not less, especially in airplane mode when the pulling effect bends in a V-shaped angle to the front of the rotor, the hinges will be 45 cm apart, the torsion 35, more than enough
                      24. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 11 August 2016 21: 46
                        0
                        Judging by the drawing, it is clearly not sufficient, especially at the ends of the blades of your tiltrotor still heavy engines.
                      25. SVVP
                        SVVP 12 August 2016 08: 42
                        0
                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        Judging by the drawing, it is clearly not sufficient (1), especially at the ends of the blades of your tiltrotor still heavy engines (2).

                        1. 2.5 m - the length of the blade, + 3 * installation torsion bar, give 25 cm to the nearest fuselage point, in the case of a clean gyroscope (it is precisely drawn, without the installation angle of the torsion bar) - 20 cm.
                        2. Engines are not heavy - 370 grams each. In the manufacture of 4 weights, it was only along the weld (laser cutting), and ranged from 370 to 375, which was removed as the seams were ground, with control over the electronic balance, to the same for all four engines.
                      26. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 12 August 2016 15: 25
                        0
                        On the Ka-52 during maneuvering, the approach of the blades of the two rotors is not allowed less than 40 cm
                      27. SVVP
                        SVVP 12 August 2016 15: 36
                        0
                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        On the Ka-52 during maneuvering, the approach of the blades of the two rotors is not allowed less than 40 cm

                        Are the diameters "comparable"? wink
                        Ka 52
                        The diameter of the main screw, m - 14.50


                        My convertiplane

                        The diameter of each of the two screws is 5 meters

                        The difference is three times.
                        Roughly divide 40: 3 = 13,3 winked
                      28. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 12 August 2016 15: 39
                        0
                        At a distance of 40 cm, even for a short time, the blades begin to exert too much aerodynamic influence on each other.
                      29. SVVP
                        SVVP 12 August 2016 16: 15
                        0
                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        At a distance of 40 cm, even for a short time, the blades begin to exert too much aerodynamic influence on each other.

                        Of course, wink but you forget that this happens with the regular operation of the rotor, due to the cyclicity of the AP during oblique blowing - which is absolutely absent on my tiltrotor, due to the absence of such conditions, if we take the operation of the Ka 52 rotors "for ideal conditions" laughing
                      30. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 12 August 2016 16: 04
                        0
                        Even on the Mi-1, shaking was weakened and traction characteristics improved when the rotor was carried up 1,5 m from the body.
                      31. SVVP
                        SVVP 12 August 2016 16: 26
                        0
                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        Even on the Mi-1, shaking was weakened and traction characteristics improved when the rotor was carried up 1,5 m from the body.

                        The revolutions are too different - times, ill-conceived due to lack of experience the location of the OSH, GSH, VSH and the influence of the fuselage are two, the absence of a Mach restriction is three.
                        On the Bo-105 there are no VS and GS at all - however, the best flyer and the absence of such shocks as on the Mi-1, although the rotor is very close to the fuselage, is incomparable with the Mi 1!
                      32. SVVP
                        SVVP 12 August 2016 16: 33
                        0
                        And I ask you, do not forget that, to put it mildly, the conditions are not helicopter on a tiltrotor:
                        1. The blade cycle is manifested only in variable modes - in other cases, a complete analogy of an airplane propeller (with the exception of helicopter mode, when the blades are located at a distance of no less than ~ 2 meters from the closest possible touch point.)
                        2. The scheme in helicopter mode, as in the diameter

                        Sincerely. smile
                      33. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 12 August 2016 17: 37
                        0
                        If you steer the AP, that is, the cycle, such effects will be without it.
                      34. SVVP
                        SVVP 12 August 2016 18: 04
                        0
                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        If you steer the AP, that is, the cycle,

                        Quote: SVVP
                        only in variable modes

                        i.e., briefly. In airplane modes, of course.
                        In helicopter modes -
                        Quote: SVVP
                        (The exception is helicopter mode, when the blades are located from the nearest possible point of contact at a distance of not less than ~ 2 meters.)

                        Do not read carefully winked
                      35. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 12 August 2016 18: 44
                        0
                        Well, if there are no rudders, then in airplane mode only AP
                        and in airplane mode will be next to the cabin
                      36. SVVP
                        SVVP 12 August 2016 19: 00
                        0
                        All possible and impossible conditions for finding
                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        with a cabin near
                        rotor - I have already listed it for you, and even that "+7 from the surrounding" smile
                        And in the "airplane" mode, the blades will be even in the minimum setting angle, still not less than a distance of 20 cm from the nearest point, due to the fact that the propeller becomes pulling wink forget this important detail
                      37. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 12 August 2016 20: 52
                        0
                        20cm is too small
                        screw seek to maintain its position in space.
                        To lengthen the shafts or make the wingspan a little larger is not a big problem. It will be bigger if someone breaks.
                        At the same time, maximum speed and efficiency will increase.
                      38. SVVP
                        SVVP 12 August 2016 21: 16
                        0
                        Quote: SVVP
                        20cm is too small
                        screw seek to maintain its position in space.

                        I assure you, the figure is quite sufficient, on the aircraft model they were much more elastic (nylon, taken from the RC Chinook model of the helicopter, due to the fact that the controller for two engines at once and two APs for a standard control panel) of the rotor was checked after each flight, after all conceivable piloting situations, there was no touch on the fuselage smile

                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        To lengthen the shafts or make the wingspan a little larger is not a big problem.

                        lengthening shafts - provoking resonance and the destruction of their attachment to the console.
                        lengthening of the wing - an increase in its Cx.

                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        It will be bigger if someone breaks.

                        this is eliminated by testing the product "for failure".
                        In the initial stage of testing, it is planned radio control tiltrotor, without pilots.

                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        At the same time, maximum speed and efficiency will increase.

                        These indicators, with elongated shafts - will remain unchanged, but lengthening the consoles, thereby increasing Cx - will only worsen efficiency. This is from practice ...
                      39. SVVP
                        SVVP 12 August 2016 21: 26
                        0
                        winked It’s better to reduce the angle of convergence of the consoles - more painless (unless the pilot’s inconvenience is added when there is a continuous field of flicker before his eyes). But for that, Cx will decrease, due to an increase in sweep smile
                      40. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 12 August 2016 21: 29
                        0
                        Again, the Ka-50 with its prevention of even 40cm convergence of the blades and the Mi-1 (or Robinoson) with the rotor raised, Broken materiel is also money. Why blow a large cab when a thin wing is possible?
                      41. SVVP
                        SVVP 13 August 2016 07: 01
                        0
                        laughing How persistent you are! Well, I’ll think about it, I will consult, I will consult, I will calculate - I will make a decision and notify smile
                        And answer on drugs? Yes or no - I will take anyone for granted winked
                      42. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 14 August 2016 15: 17
                        0
                        To extend the shafts by 35-75cm is not a problem
                      43. The comment was deleted.
  18. SVVP
    SVVP 7 August 2016 10: 17
    0
    wink What if this?
  19. The comment was deleted.
  20. SVVP
    SVVP 7 August 2016 10: 21
    0
    wink And if so?
  21. SVVP
    SVVP 7 August 2016 10: 22
    0
    ... and so winked
  22. The comment was deleted.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  23. SVVP
    SVVP 7 August 2016 18: 18
    0
    Quote: Simpsonian
    In order to take and carry a larger load if possible.

    that's when they go to supersonic, and the most troubles begin
    if the tiltrotor is double or so then they are kind of small

    You believe that this "news" for those who invent such things, construct, design and even build? feel

    Oh how you think badly of us winked lol
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 7 August 2016 18: 24
      0
      moving screws far from the center of mass is not a good idea
      1. SVVP
        SVVP 7 August 2016 19: 10
        0
        I do not agree winked , because on the "Skimmer", it was not only calculated - but also justified and accepted as the only correct decision. Moreover, even the inconvenience with long shafts for screws, with their structural difficulties, did not stop. direct drive screws(!)
        1. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 7 August 2016 19: 14
          0
          This is "how to count", and the Canadians do not have this because a tiltrotor and not an airplane.
          1. SVVP
            SVVP 7 August 2016 19: 33
            0
            wink And what is the difference in "by plane"option?"Helicopter"- a complete analogy with the transverse scheme.
            1. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 7 August 2016 20: 00
              0
              different in transition
              1. SVVP
                SVVP 11 August 2016 08: 14
                0
                Quote: Simpsonian
                different in transition

                Only by the transition itself, and by the concepts that contribute to this - and only IMHO.
  24. SVVP
    SVVP 7 August 2016 19: 17
    0
    If I consider my option, then there is simply no other solution, I worked through it, modeled it, and in the end I made sure smile
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 7 August 2016 19: 19
      0
      exhaust lick the lamp will not be?
  25. SVVP
    SVVP 7 August 2016 19: 27
    0
    Think for yourself:
    1. Exhaust - tangentially, in the plane of the rotor (V ~ 500 m / s).
    2. The removal is more than enough. (checked at the stand)
    3. Mixing with ambient air, increases the temperature, from the surrounding, by 7 * C.
    4. The percentage of the temperature field is "slightly" less than 1%
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 7 August 2016 19: 39
      0
      helical exhaust during forward flight
      Did the wind blow towards the booth at a speed corresponding to Vmax?

      and how is it with transients?
      1. SVVP
        SVVP 7 August 2016 19: 51
        0
        Quote: Simpsonian
        and how is it with transients?


        winked For everyone who took up tiltrotors, this was the most painful question. My technique was worked out on an aircraft model - there were no problems, not a single one, from a dozen flights. Further "reinsure" - did not make sense.
      2. SVVP
        SVVP 12 August 2016 08: 51
        0
        Quote: Simpsonian
        helical exhaust during forward flight
        Did the wind blow towards the booth at a speed corresponding to Vmax?

        It is not possible to get it completely on the stand - the proximity of the ground distorts the picture. But in the simulator, there is a clear picture of a real airflow, a touch of the fuselage (already mixed in terms of temperature color shading) of the fuselage, with a gradient of "+7 to the surrounding", in the area of ​​the steering wheel.
  26. SVVP
    SVVP 7 August 2016 19: 46
    0
    Everything is modeled, where is the computer, where is practically no contradictions.
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 7 August 2016 19: 50
      0
      Yes, they generally hang, but at the stand everything is shown by nature if you do not forget about some factors
      1. SVVP
        SVVP 7 August 2016 19: 57
        0
        Consulted with specialists on controversial issues, realizing that not everything is so simple feel
        1. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 7 August 2016 20: 00
          0
          talked about demolition due to the addition of wind speeds and speed?
          1. SVVP
            SVVP 9 August 2016 14: 40
            0
            yes, and you know, "350 mares" is not a "light breeze" effort, fact! smile
  27. SVVP
    SVVP 7 August 2016 20: 07
    0
    A yak zhezh ?! Only frontal airflow - also consider, nevertheless, the flow compaction and the change in the flow paths good
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 7 August 2016 20: 11
      0
      not only airflow, also "screw pitch".
      1. SVVP
        SVVP 11 August 2016 08: 18
        0
        Quote: Simpsonian
        not only airflow, also "screw pitch".

        ... only by the amount of slippage - no more. And since the midsection has very little effect on Cx, this value is too insignificant to draw special attention to this.
    2. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 7 August 2016 20: 11
      0
      not only airflow, also "screw pitch".
  28. SVVP
    SVVP 7 August 2016 20: 14
    0
    I explained to you:
    Quote: SVVP
    Everything is modeled, where is the computer, where is practically no contradictions.

    Quote: SVVP
    Consulted with specialists on controversial issues, realizing that not everything is so simple
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 7 August 2016 22: 09
      0
      no, well, just asked

      Quote: SVVP
      Let me ask you why a "short takeoff or landing" is needed for a "helicopter"?


      but what they wouldn’t ask about, so they didn’t answer about it ...
      1. SVVP
        SVVP 8 August 2016 05: 13
        0
        hi And they, too, at one time, and asked and wondered why someone who takes off without a run - "run" stupidly ?! wink In the afterburner mode, the rotor is capable of developing more than enough power, it is even in its name
        Quote: SVVP
        ... that a compromise solution can be found and a screw called "unloaded propeller»

        That's the whole answer smile
        The take-off and landing of the tiltrotor itself is less than 5% of flight time, so why intentionally "invent and complicate" what is so perfect? In order to trim his abilities to critical state?? lol
        1. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 8 August 2016 11: 41
          0
          Quote: SVVP
          And they, too, at one time, and asked and wondered why someone who takes off without a run - "run" stupidly ?!

          Well, what are they then "experts"?
          1. SVVP
            SVVP 9 August 2016 14: 37
            0
            Yes, here are those with MAI winked You will not believe, but always, even a major specialist, can let down "blindness to standards", and when a non-standard solution appears, the appearance appears, "... Every wise man is rather simple" (C) It happened myself, sometimes I got into such moments, I repent feel
        2. The comment was deleted.
  29. SVVP
    SVVP 8 August 2016 05: 31
    0
    Here are the characteristics of one (of two rotoplane rotors! The total weight return of the rotors is doubled, respectively.) The RP rotor, calculated on an electronic calculator, is a program compiled by a specialist in helicopter engineering and is designed for rotors with ramjet engines, which is much lower in terms of performance characteristics than the propulsion engine I invented.
  30. SVVP
    SVVP 8 August 2016 05: 32
    0
    My mover patent publication 2010:
  31. SVVP
    SVVP 8 August 2016 05: 38
    0
    And this, a calculator on a rotor of a weight return of 700 kg:
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 8 August 2016 11: 47
      0
      Do not forget about the rudder and elevation ... or it will compromise the entire program and then they will not point it with a finger
      both on it in particular and with sheer joy on SKVVP in general
      1. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 8 August 2016 12: 08
        0
        turn out to be unnecessary - remove the cable management system, lock the steering wheels, turn out to be needed leave as having practical value for operation
        at the stage of testing and trial operation such liberties and especially caution are permissible,
        decrease, not add (besides what is on Po-2),
        it is better than if someone crashes and the car with him
        the fact that the device will not be patented is okay, it will have the most patented part
  32. SVVP
    SVVP 8 August 2016 18: 04
    0
    Quote: Simpsonian
    Do not forget about the rudder and elevation ... or it will compromise the entire program and then they will not point it with a finger


    winked I already wrote to you that the controllability itself, both in helicopter and in airplane mode, is fully and thoroughly confirmed as corresponding to reality on a radio-controlled aircraft model. And as you know, the principles - do not have the properties to change when scaling, this is not only my IMHO, this is confirmed by the practice of the very foundations of aerodynamics. smile
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 10 August 2016 10: 28
      0
      The Lilienthal glider (almost a model) was also controllable, within ...
      1. SVVP
        SVVP 11 August 2016 08: 22
        0
        ... not on such a scale, dear smile And yet, aerodynamics is not "redefined" as a science, when one and the same product is scaled within acceptable limits - only the coefficients are revised winked
        1. gridasov
          gridasov 13 July 2017 22: 52
          0
          That is the big problem. Both aerodynamics and hydrodynamics must be considered as a certain level of magnetic processes, naturally with the participation of the movement of gas and liquid flows. In addition, mathematical methods for analyzing such processes should be carried out on the basis of fundamentally new methods for analyzing super-large data, and neither formulas nor equations are suitable for this because energy processes are not linear processes and are not subject to simple scaling or calculations based on the construction of mathematical sequences. in any form.
  33. SVVP
    SVVP 15 July 2017 10: 07
    0
    Quote: gridasov
    And aerodynamics and hydrodynamics must be considered as a certain level of magnetic processes

    "America!!!" belay
    Maybe you wanted to say "plasma"or worse,"MAGNETO-PLASMA"! wassat laughing laughing laughing
    Or still "nuclear strong interaction"??? !!! So it would sound soooooo cool" wassat !!!