"Big Terror" - the numbers, the facts (part of 2)

And here are the documents themselves, and the numbers:

Order of the NKVD from 30.07.1937 № 00447
Main article: NKVD Order No. 00447
I. CONTINGENTS TO BE REPRESSED.
1. Former fists who returned after serving their sentences and continue to conduct active anti-Soviet subversive activities.
2. Former kulaks who fled from camps or labor settlements, as well as kulaks hiding from dispossession that are engaged in anti-Soviet activities.

3. Former kulaks and socially dangerous elements who consisted of insurgent, fascist, terrorist and gangster formations, who served their sentences, hid from reprisals or escaped from prison, and resumed their anti-Soviet criminal activities.

4. Members of anti-Soviet parties (Social Revolutionaries, cargo masters, mussavatists, ittihadists and dashnaks), former whites, gendarmes, officials, punishers, gangsters, bandit supporters, smugglers, re-emigrants, hiding from repression, fleeing from jails and continuing active anti-Soviet activities.

5. The most hostile and active participants of the Cossack-White Guard insurgent organizations, fascist, terrorist and espionage and sabotage counter-revolutionary formations exposed by the investigative and proven intelligence materials.
Elements of this category that are currently held in custody are subject to repression, the investigation of which has been completed, but the cases have not yet been considered by the judicial authorities.

6. The most active anti-Soviet elements from the former kulaks, punishers, gangsters, whites, sectarian activists, churchmen and others, who are now kept in prisons, camps, labor settlements and colonies, and continue to conduct active anti-Soviet subversive work there.

7. Criminal offenders (bandits, robbers, recidivist thieves, professional smugglers, recidivist scammers, skokonokrady), leading criminal activity and related to the criminal environment.
Elements of this category that are currently in custody are also subject to repression, the investigation of which has been completed, but cases have not yet been considered by the judicial authorities.

8. Criminal elements in camps and labor settlements and their criminal activities.

9. All the above-mentioned contingents that are currently in the village - on collective farms, state farms, agricultural enterprises and in the city - on industrial and commercial enterprises, transport, in Soviet institutions and on construction are subject to repression.

Ii. ABOUT MEASURES OF PUNISHMENT REPRESSED AND NUMBER OF SUBJECT TO BE REPRESSED. 1. All repressed fists, criminals and other anti-Soviet elements are divided into two categories: a) the first category includes all the most hostile elements listed above. They are subject to immediate arrest and on consideration of their cases in threes - SHOOTING.

b) all other less active, but still hostile elements belong to the second category. They are subject to arrest and imprisonment in camps for a period from 8 to 10 years, and the most malicious and socially dangerous ones are imprisoned for the same periods in prisons as defined by the troika.

Help 1 special department of the NKVD of the USSR on the number of prisoners arrested and convicted during the period from October 1 1936 to November 1 1938.
Not earlier than November 1 1938 *

Totals

Deputy 1 Chief of the Special Department of the NKVD of the USSR, Captain of State Security Zubkin
Head of 5 Division Senior Lieutenant of State Security Kremnev
Interesting data is provided in one of the 1936-38 Summary tables, reflecting the situation on 1 in July 1938 (excluding the DCC):

(TsA FSB RF. F. 3. Op. 5. D. 572. L. 74)

And now what is interesting is that the kulaks in Russia were "dispossessed" since 1918, and the kulaks of pre-revolutionary (usurers) and the kulaks of the Soviet (strong owners who did not want to go to the collective farms!) Should be distinguished. Many of the former have changed their jobs long ago and were quite loyal to the new government. Oh yeah, it was a struggle against the "fifth column". But ... did she give the result? No, because more than 1 million Soviet citizens, and mostly CALLING AGE, one way or another went over to the side of the Nazis and fought along with them.

Decision of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) No. P65 / 116 from 17 in November 1938
116. About arrests, prosecution supervision and investigation.
(Resolution of the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR and the Central Committee of the CPSU (b)).
Make the following decision (see attachment).
[Application]
People's Commissars of Internal Affairs of the Union and autonomous republics, heads of the NKVD krays and oblasts, heads of district, city and district departments of the NKVD.
Prosecutors of the Union and autonomous republics, territories and regions, district, city and district prosecutors.
The secretaries of the Central Committee of the national communist parties, regional committees, regional committees, regional committees, city committees and district committees of the CPSU (b).

ABOUT ARRESTS, PROSECUTOR'S SUPERVISION AND CONDUCTING CONSEQUENCES.
Resolution of the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR and the Central Committee of the CPSU (b).

SNK of the USSR and the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) note that during 1937-38, under the leadership of the party, the NKVD bodies did a great job of smashing the enemies of the people and clearing the USSR of numerous spy, terrorist, sabotage and sabotage personnel from Trotskyists, Bukharinites Socialist-Revolutionaries, Mensheviks, bourgeois nationalists, White Guards, fugitive kulaks and criminals, who were a serious support of foreign intelligence services in the USSR and, in particular, intelligence services of Japan, Germany, Poland, England and France.

At the same time, the NKVD bodies did a great job also in defeating the espionage and sabotage agents of foreign intelligence services, transferred to the USSR in large numbers because of the cordon under the guise of so-called political emigrants and defectors from Poles, Romanians, Finns, Germans, Latvians, Estonians, Harbinites and so on . Clearing the country of subversive rebel and espionage personnel played a positive role in ensuring the continued success of socialist construction.

However, one should not think that the matter of cleaning the USSR from spies, pests, terrorists and saboteurs is over. The task now is to continue and continue the merciless struggle against all the enemies of the USSR to organize this struggle using more sophisticated and reliable methods.

This collection of materials is also on the GARF website.

This is all the more necessary because the mass operations to crush and uproot enemy elements carried out by the NKVD in 1937-1938, while simplified investigation and trial, could not but lead to a number of major flaws and distortions in the work of the NKVD and the Prosecutor’s Office . Moreover, the enemies of the people and the spies of foreign intelligence services, who had penetrated into the NKVD, both in the center and in the field (highlighted by the author!), While continuing to conduct their subversive work, tried in every way to confuse investigative and undercover affairs, deliberately distorted Soviet laws, carried out mass and unjustified arrests, while at the same time saving from the defeat of his accomplices, especially those seated in the NKVD.

The main shortcomings revealed recently in the work of the NKVD and the Prosecutor’s Office are the following:
First, the NKVD workers completely abandoned the intelligence work, preferring to act in a simpler way, through the practice of mass arrests, without worrying about the completeness and high quality of the investigation. The workers of the NKVD became so unaccustomed to the painstaking, systematic intelligence work, and so entered into the taste of a simplified procedure for the production of cases, that until very recently they were raising questions about granting them so-called "limits" for making mass arrests. This led to the fact that the already weak intelligence work was even more lagging behind and, worst of all, many drug addicts lost taste (highlighted by the author!) For intelligence activities playing a crucial role in the work of the KGB.

This, finally, led to the fact that, in the absence of properly organized intelligence work, the investigation, as a rule, could not fully expose the arrested spies and saboteurs of foreign intelligence services and completely uncover all their criminal connections.

Such an underestimation of the significance of the agency work and the unacceptably frivolous attitude towards arrests is all the more intolerable because the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR and the Central Committee of the CPSU (B.) In their resolutions of 8 in May 1933 of the year, 17 of June of 1935 of the year and, finally, of 3 of March of 1937, gave categorical instructions on the need properly organize undercover work, limit arrests and improve the investigation.

Secondly, the biggest flaw in the work of the NKVD is a deeply ingrained simplified investigation procedure, in which, as a rule, the investigator confines himself to receiving a confession of guilt from the accused and does not care at all about supporting this confession with necessary documentary data (testimony of witnesses, acts of examination, physical evidence and so on.) Often the arrested person is not interrogated within a month after the arrest, sometimes more. During interrogations of arrested interrogation protocols are not always maintained. Often there are cases when the testimony of the arrested person is recorded by the investigator in the form of notes, and then, after a long time (decade, month or even more), a general protocol is drawn up, and the requirement of the article 138 of the CPC on the verbatim, if possible, recording the testimony of the arrested . Very often, an interrogation report is not drawn up until the arrested person confesses to the crimes he has committed. There are frequent cases when the testimony of the accused, which refutes these or other data, is not recorded in the interrogation protocol.

Investigative cases are executed carelessly, drafts are added to the case, the corrected and crossed out pencil records of the testimony are unknown, the testimony is not signed by the interrogated and not certified by the investigator, the not signed and not approved indictments are included, etc. The Prosecutor’s Office does not accept necessary measures to eliminate these shortcomings, reducing, as a rule, their participation in the investigation to a simple registration and stamping of investigative materials. The bodies of the Prosecutor’s Office not only do not eliminate violations of revolutionary law, but in fact legitimize these violations.

This kind of irresponsible attitude towards the investigative arbitrariness and gross violations of the procedural rules established by law were often skillfully used by those who sneaked into the NKVD and the Prosecutor’s Office — both in the center and in the provinces — enemies of the people. They deliberately perverted Soviet laws, committed forgeries, falsified investigative documents, criminalized and arrested on trifling grounds and even without any grounds, created “cases” against innocent people for provocative purposes, and at the same time took all measures to in order to shelter and save from defeat their accomplices in the criminal anti-Soviet activities. Such facts took place both in the central apparatus of the NKVD and in the field.

All these marked in the work of the NKVD and the Prosecutor’s Office completely intolerable flaws were possible only because the enemies of the people who had penetrated into the NKVD and the Prosecutor’s Office tried to tear the work of the NKVD and the Prosecutor’s Office from the party organs, to ease themselves and his associates the possibility of continuing their anti-Soviet, subversive activities.

In order to decisively eliminate the stated deficiencies and properly organize the investigative work of the NKVD and the Prosecutor’s Office, the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR and the Central Committee of the CPSU (B.) Decide:

1. To prohibit the NKVD and the Prosecutor’s Office from carrying out any mass arrest and eviction operations. In accordance with Art. 127 Constitution of the USSR, arrests are made only by order of the court or with the approval of the prosecutor. Eviction from the border is allowed in each individual case with the permission of the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR and the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) on the special presentation of the relevant regional committee, regional committee or Central Committee of the national communist parties, coordinated with the NKVD of the USSR.

2. Eliminate the judicial trio, created in the order of the special orders of the NKVD of the USSR, as well as the troika at the regional, regional and republican Departments of the RK police. Henceforth, all cases in strict accordance with applicable laws on jurisdiction should be referred to the courts or the Special Meeting under the NKVD of the USSR.

3. When arresting, the NKVD and the Prosecutor's Office are guided by the following:
a) approval for arrests to be carried out in strict accordance with the decision of the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR and the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) of 17 June 1935;
b) when requesting arrest warrants from prosecutors - the NKVD bodies are obliged to submit a reasoned decision and all materials justifying the need for arrest;
c) the Prosecutor’s Office bodies are obliged to thoroughly and substantively check the validity of the decisions of the NKVD bodies on arrests, demanding, if necessary, additional investigative actions or submission of additional investigative materials;
d) the Prosecution authorities are obliged to prevent arrests without sufficient grounds.
To establish that for each wrong arrest, along with the employees of the NKVD, the prosecutor who gave the arrest warrant is responsible.

4. Oblige the NKVD authorities during the investigation to exactly comply with all requirements of the Criminal Procedure Code.
In particular:
a) complete the investigation within the time limits established by law;
b) to interrogate those arrested no later than 24 hours after their arrest; after each interrogation, draw up a report immediately in accordance with the requirement of Article 138 of the Code of Criminal Procedure with exact indication of the time of the beginning and end of interrogation.
When reviewing the interrogation report, the prosecutor is obliged to write on the protocol on familiarization with the designation of the hour, day, month and year;
c) documents, correspondence and other items selected during the search should be sealed immediately at the search site, in accordance with Art. 184 UPK, making a detailed inventory of all sealed.

5. Oblige the prosecution authorities to strictly comply with the requirements of the Criminal Procedure Codes for the implementation of prosecutorial oversight of the investigation carried out by the NKVD. In accordance with this, prosecutors must be obliged to systematically check that the investigating authorities comply with all the rules for conducting investigations established by law and immediately eliminate violations of these rules; take measures to ensure for the defendant the procedural rights granted to him by law, etc.

6. In connection with the growing role of prosecutorial oversight and the responsibility assigned to the Prosecution authorities for arrests and the investigation carried out by the NKVD bodies, it is necessary to recognize:
a) establish that all prosecutors supervising the investigation carried out by the NKVD bodies are approved by the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) upon the presentation of the respective regional committees, regional committees, the Central Committee of the national communist parties and the Prosecutor of the USSR;
b) to oblige the regional committees, regional committees and the Central Committee of the national communist parties to check and submit to the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party (b) nominations of all prosecutors supervising the investigation in the NKVD bodies for approval within the 2 month period;
c) oblige the Procurator of the USSR Comrade. Vyshinsky isolated from the staff of the central office of politically verified qualified prosecutors to oversee the investigation conducted by the central office of the NKVD of the USSR, and submit them to the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) for a two-decade period.

7. To approve the activities of the NKVD of the USSR to streamline the investigative proceedings in the NKVD, as set out in the order of 23 in October 1938. In particular, to approve the decision of the NKVD to organize special investigative units in the operational departments. Attaching special importance to the proper organization of the investigative work of the NKVD bodies, oblige the NKVD of the USSR to ensure that investigators in the center and in the field have the best, most politically tested and who have recommended themselves to work as qualified party members. Establish that all investigators of the NKVD in the center and in the field are appointed only by order of the People's Commissar of Internal Affairs of the USSR.

8. To oblige the NKVD of the USSR and the Procurator of the USSR to give their local authorities instructions on the exact execution of this resolution.
* * *

The SNK of the USSR and the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) draw the attention of all the workers of the NKVD and the Prosecutor's Office to the need to decisively address the above-mentioned deficiencies in the work of the NKVD and the Prosecutor's Office and to the exceptional importance of organizing all investigative and prosecutorial work in new ways.
The Council of People's Commissars of the USSR and the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) warn all NKVD and Prosecutor’s Office workers that for the slightest violation of Soviet laws and Party and Government directives, every employee of the NKVD and the Prosecutor’s Office will be subject to harsh judicial responsibility, regardless of individuals.

Chairman of the board
People's Commissars of the USSR Secretary of the Central
Committee of the CPSU (b)
V. MOLOTOV I. STALIN
November 17 1938 years
No. P 4387
________________________________________
AP RF, f. 3, op. 58, d. 6, l. 85-87;

Yes, not the law is terrible. Terrible lawlessness, elevated to the rank of law! However, it is said: an injustice committed by one servant of the law is to a certain extent dishonorable by the law itself!

Comments

[venaya]

The article is more interesting than the previous part, only the end of the article is completely perplexing:

Terrible lawlessness, elevated to the rank of law! However, it is said: injustice committed by one servant of the law, to a certain extent dishonors the law itself!

Strange, documents are cited indicating that the country's government is striving to improve the work of the investigative committee with natural post-revolutionary childhood diseases, and the conclusion drawn from the article does not correspond to the content of the main part of the article. Something in the end is not what follows from the content of the article itself, some kind of omission, a flaw.

[atos_kin]

Quote: venaya

The article is more interesting than the previous part, only the end of the article is completely perplexing:
Something in the end is not what follows from the content of the article itself, some kind of omission, a flaw.

This author is so "sorry" that the archives do not confirm "the death of tens of millions of victims of the Stalinist regime."

[Nikita Gromov]

The archives and the Bolshevik terminology of these documents just confirm the entire scale and horror of the Jewish Bolshevik punitive system aimed at the planned and physical destruction of the Russian people, mockingly and izuitically defeated according to the built cannibalistic categories - "kulaks" (that is, the most laboring part of the Russian peasantry), "Socially dangerous elements" (that is, representatives of all social classes of the Russian Empire), "anti-Soviet elements" (that is, all categories of citizens suspected to one degree or another of being "disloyal to the system). And one more vile and deliberate feature - to mix and equate criminals and bandits with the general composition of the political categories of the country's citizens.
Even today, it is impossible without shudder and mental pain to read these monstrous lines filled with echoes of pain, suffering, torment and blood of our ruined ancestors.
Eternal memory to them and peace of mind. Nobody is forgotten and nothing is forgotten. We remember.

[Akselruur]

We also remember, mister good

[Kim Klimov]

Such lumpen, as on your nickname, hardly remember anything at all, except for the cliched propaganda clichés. And the Russian people will always remember the fate of their ancestors, ground by the Zion-Kagal machine of liquid Bolshevism.

[Nicholas C.]

Quote: Author Vyacheslav Shpakovsky

more than 1 million Soviet citizens, and mostly of the ENTRY AGE, in one way or another went over to the side of the Nazis and fought with them.

Shpakovsky, more than a million "fought"?
Million is 12-14 fully equipped ARMY!. Indicate where they are "fought" with the USSR?

For a long time and many times already this State Department grant-eating liberoid myth about the "million" has been examined. Particularly rabid Svidomites are already writing - one and a half. They don't care, but the more the better.

PS. Initially, it was about collaborators in general. The question is who should be considered as such. For example, in this million more than half of the so-called hivis are unconvoyed unarmed prisoners of war who were used by the Nazis in auxiliary work. Grant-eaters count them in the "million traitors", but the "bloody tyrant" Stalin, apparently, did not think so, because after filtering (checking to see if there was anything else) he let them go home.
Among the remaining, the overwhelming majority are Bandera, Baltic, Crimean Tatar, etc. SS men, punishers, policemen and other executioners. Shpakovsky called them "neatly" Soviet, but grant-eaters, especially in oral discussions, for some reason prefer to talk about "a million Russian traitors. "
How many Russians actually? (Yes, and then conditionally). By the end of the war they were reduced to two formations with a total strength of about 100 thousand:

1. More than half: von Panwitz's Cossack corps (+ on trifles). Most of them are immigrants from the empire and their descendants. They did not take the oath to the USSR and therefore it is not entirely correct to add them to the number of traitors. In addition, when trying to use them on the eastern front, the Nazis had doubts about their loyalty, so the Cossacks "fought" almost the entire war in the Balkans.
1. The army of Vlasov ROA. In fact, the ROA practically did not take part in the hostilities. But the warring units of collaborators also went to its formation.
Here is the juggling thing. Grant-eaters pass them off as "ideological fighters against the regime." There were some. Well, how ideological. But in general this is not the case. The main sources for the formation of police personnel in the occupied territories:
1. Someone was broken in a concentration camp.
2. "Sons-in-law". The encircles who planned to sit quietly in the villages. Many were pressed at this stage.
3. Most are forced mobilization. On our territory in RONA mobilized in 16! years (UNCREATED AGE). How many cadres were not captured by "bloody Stalin" who did not think of putting children in a meat grinder. But this is exactly what "civilized" Europe needed. Let these Russians kill each other.

No policemen, traitors did not forgive and will not forgive.

[magician]

item 1. yes, not all Pavel Korchagins broke, the country only tried to get on its feet and patriotism mainly in large cities, and where ideology was fueled by propaganda.
item 2. many stayed in the occupied territory, but alas, the NKVD fleeced the liberated territories and those who quietly wanted to sit out fell under this comb. there were many reasons for this, but there was only one law.
item 3. Children in the war, someone did not disdain their mobilization. In the Red Army is nonsense, there were exceptions, but they did not concern mobilization. There was life, albeit in war, and to save a child’s life is valor. Son of the regiment, remember what meaning was put into these words.

[ava09]

"Lumpen" is not on the avatar, the lumpen is in the head. There was such a "Zionic-kagal machine of Jewish Bolshevism", I agree. Just to figure out who organized it in the USSR and who fought against it, you need to have a connected mindset. And for you completely different RSDLP - VKP (b) - CPSU - one and the same ... For example: if Stalin and Trotsky had the same goals, why did Stalin first expel Trotsky, and then "slammed" his "ally"? For not liking the mug?

[PHANTOM-AS]

I’m sorry that they shot a little!
Otherwise, today we would not have what we have.

[DimerVladimer]

Quote: PHANTOM-AS

I’m sorry that they shot a little!
Otherwise, today we would not have what we have.

Did your grandfather go? And bequeathed to you?

[VSkilled]

... the horror of the liquid Bolshevik punitive system ...

Why are you so ... frankly? Jews cannot be touched on this site. Admins - "vigil".

It is funny and bitter at the same time to observe how ... the "reformed" and ... "suddenly recovered his sight" teacher of "History of the KPSS" with ten (!) Years of experience "as it were Shpakovsky" is naturally trying to "burn with napalm" those for whom he has been for so long and served so faithfully.

It's funny to see how he "changed his shoes", trying his best to look the maximum "liberal". Simply - "holier than the Pope."

And, after all, he probably keeps his party card ... In case History takes its turn again and the teachers of "History of the CPSU" are needed again.

Then he ... will "see clearly" again and will, with the same enthusiasm, "burn with napalm" the already ... "damned liberals".

It is bitter to remember that it was the fellow tribesmen of "as it were Shpakovsky" who, in their time, just as helpfully and hastily, in traditional attempts to curry favor, literally shed rivers of blood, often innocent people.

Not for nothing, then, grandfather Stalin these executioners, drunk with blood, themselves - almost without exception "multiplied by zero".

But some survived. And - gave birth to such as "like Shpakovsky." Which now, as always, "for a ringing coin" - went to the "accusers" ...

[guzik007]

This author is so "sorry" that the archives do not confirm "the death of tens of millions of victims of the Stalinist regime."
-----------------------------
Where did you get it from? Well done, the author of the documentary denied Khrushchev's myths about tens of millions of "tortured and executed"
Everything was conceived correctly, but on the bottoms, as always went perversions and violations according to the old Russian tradition, make d..ka pray to God .....

[alexey water]

Quote: venaya

Strange, documents are cited indicating that the country's government is striving to improve the work of the investigative committee with natural post-revolutionary childhood diseases, and the conclusion drawn from the article does not correspond to the content of the main part of the article. Something in the end is not what follows from the content of the article itself, some kind of omission, a flaw.

Childhood diseases? What do you call childhood diseases? What did you mean? The fact that the NKVD bodies turned out to be people who carried not the letter of the law, but the letter of terror? The fact that each NKD investigator could, at his discretion, depending on his mood, attitude, desire to arrest any person who fell on the repressed list, in which the country’s gender was potentially found. The fact that the protocols were compiled with gross violations or were not compiled at all? And people were arrested for years, decades, SHOT. My relatives died so. Is it a childhood illness ?! For such a childhood illness, the head of the NKVD was then put to the wall, and rightly so. But it was done late. When blood was shed, rivers of blood of innocent people.

[venaya]

Quote: Alexey Vodyanoy

... in the NKVD bodies were people who carried not the letter of the law, but the letter of terror?

And how did they "suddenly" end up there? Did not their "comrades" from Wall Street help in this, hiring for this purpose the New York gangsters, who speak a little Russian and, together with "Comrade" Trotsky, were abandoned on a ship to Petrograd? You either accuse me of this or one of the 6 party secretaries of JV Stalin, who all his life walked on the edge of a knife, fearing a stab in the back from anyone. Only the invitation in the 38th year of the enterprising and intelligent L.P. Beria to rake this viper allowed at least a little to get rid of the legacy of the revolutions, although half of the NKVD investigation department had to be shot already.
What and to whom do you have specific complaints? Can you really explain?

[alexey water]

In this case, I am outraged by your words when you write about the natural "childhood diseases" of the NKVD organs along the entire vertical of this structure. One cannot be so light and oversimplified when it comes to human lives. Whose lives? Yes, the lives of the citizens of their country. After all, when it comes to gangs. groups, terrorists is one thing. And when it comes to a state structure, a powerful, large structure, this is a completely different matter. And whoever is there a real executioner who signs execution orders without trial or investigation, the country's leadership bears general responsibility for all this, incl. and I.V. Stalin. And it is not so important to me whether he had such thoughts or not. Whether this was done with his knowledge, or whether he did not know at all. His task was to stabilize the state, save people, and prevent arbitrariness.
I understand that Stalin gave the most powerful industrialization of the country, I understand that thanks to his will and military talent, the USSR came out victorious in World War II, I accept that the situation of 1938 is still subject to the influence of the 1918 revolution. But this does not in the least remove from him and other top leaders of the country, as a result of their action or inaction; does not relieve them of responsibility for the river of blood of its own people flowing at this time as a result of the actions of the state apparatus of their own country. I hope specifically. If not, sorry.

[svp67]

The numbers are certainly impressive ... they are always better than words ...
Of the 1 people arrested during this period, to the highest degree - 565 people ...
And most of all it was repressed by "employees", these are those whom we now call "effective managers" and "office plankton". There is something to think about.

[venaya]

Quote: svp67

Of the 1 people arrested during this period, to the highest degree - 565 people ...

You do not have accuracy: from October 1, 1936 to July 1, 1938, 1,5 million were arrested, but 600 thousand were shot during the period from 1921 to 1938. Check closely the terms of executions and arrests, these are different periods of time.

[svp67]

Quote: venaya

You do not have accuracy: from October 1, 1936 to July 1, 1938, 1,5 million were arrested, but 600 thousand were shot during the period from 1921 to 1938. Check closely the terms of executions and arrests, these are different periods of time.

Inaccuracy? So it’s not with me, but in the one brought by the author

Help 1 special department of the NKVD of the USSR on the number of prisoners arrested and convicted during the period from October 1 1936 to November 1 1938.
Not earlier than November 1 1938 *

And the period is clearly indicated there from October 1, 1936 to July 1, 1938 and there is no mention of any 1921 year. Moreover, these data do not take into account some kind of "DCK"; therefore, it can be assumed that there are even more repressed and sentenced to capital punishment (capital punishment) during the same period.

[venaya]

Quote: svp67

it can be assumed that even more repressed and sentenced to VMN for the same period

Thanks for the tip. Indeed, I missed, such figures in the press had never met me before. Here, either a random typo in the article or an outright forgery of the source data. In this case, clarification is required precisely for this indicator, so far I will consider that 600 thousand VMN for two years as a mistake of the compiler, if this is not done intentionally. It is generally believed that in these two years shot no more than 130 thousand convicted.

[Alexander Romanov]

Quote: venaya

It is usually believed that during these two years no more than 130 thousand convicts were shot.

Fi, just 130 thousand, is that a lot.
Is nothing twitching in your soul?

[venaya]

Quote: Alexander Romanov

Fi, just 130 thousand, is that a lot.
Is nothing twitching in your soul?

Twitches? I twitches even from one that I personally saw. The question is not that the 5-fold increase in the figures shot in the published document with respect to the quite logically substantiated and more often published figures really upsets me, there immediately arises a natural suspicion of bias in the whole article. And I was surprised by another: I asked my moderator my question, and you had a question about the real population decline, which was in the last quarter of a century, which was not affecting the 37th and 38th years, when the population was growing quite naturally 3 million annually. I asked you a specific question - about the sharp, so far not justified decline (instead of growth) of the population both in the last quarter century and in other periods, not including the 37th, 38th years. Why is this particular, more pressing issue not bothering you? According to publications over the past century, our country has not counted more than 2,5 billion people.
And with these fucked-up numbers, nothing twitches for you?

[Alexander Romanov]

Quote: svp67

And most of all it was repressed by "employees", these are those whom we now call "effective managers" and "office plankton". There is something to think about.

668 thousand shot, the price of human life is zero.

[venaya]

Quote: Alexander Romanov

668 thousand shot, the price of human life is zero.

For 30 years 668 thousand. And how many human lives have we lost in the last 25 years alone? Infas vary from 10 to 30 million in total only in the Russian Federation, not counting the rest of the republics of the USSR. I have already mentioned the numbers of losses for the last century, it’s even scary to repeat. How, in this case, can we determine the value of human life? The question is more complicated than it seems "from a kondochka". It is advisable to calculate the total losses, because in the 37th + 38th years the number in the USSR increased by 6 million. How will we take this into account? It's not that simple!

[oking]

According to the certificate of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the USSR dated 11.12.1953/1921/1953. for the period from the beginning of 32,5. until the first half of 799455. inclusively (1937 years) 1938 people were sentenced to the VMN. Of these, in the period from the beginning of 2 to the end of 730 (681692 years, 85,3 days) - XNUMX people (XNUMX%). What is this "surge in crime"? This already looks like genocide.

Quote: venaya

For 30 years, 668 thousand.

And what, this, understated actually, figure is small for you? This is an average of 22,3 thousand people per year. About 60 people a day. Every day for more than 11 thousand days. And it is already AFTER 1918-20 with their many victims. What is this, "husk", little things? What kind of power is this, "people's"? This is the occupation of the country by a hostile occupation regime, there is no other name for it.

Quote: venaya

And how many human lives have we lost over the past 25 years?

Why are you doing this? What does this matter in this topic? Arrows translate?
And then, those who were shot are not all "lost lives." If you count all the lives lost under the Bolsheviks, you will not have enough digits on your calculator.

Quote: venaya

It is advisable to calculate the total losses, because over the 37th + 38th years the number in the USSR increased by 6 million.

Women traditionally gave birth to many more, that's the answer. This is a highly inertial process; they do not quickly rebuild here. Even Drosophila flies with their short life cycle. Therefore, the population grew. For three generations of the Council of Deputies, consciousness has been rebuilt. Now they often do not want to give birth at all. And you can't fix it quickly, because the negative experience of previous generations of "happy Soviet people" sits in the core.

[Mik13]

Quote: venaya

For 30-th years 668 thousand. And how many human lives have we lost in the last 25 years? Infs vary from 10-ty to 30-ty millions in total only in the Russian Federation, not counting the rest of the republics of the USSR.

QUIET! Do not embarrass the rough prose of the life of the beautiful elves of the free world! And then you with your profound life-laden life truth drown out the crunch of French rolls.

Over the past 25 years, they have become extinct ... who should be extinct. They did not fit into the market. All 30 millions. Do not worry about them. (c) Chubais A.B. - not verbatim.

And with the bloody tyrant Stalin, 10 times less, but bloody repression. For lovers of French pastries were given a loaf only with a shovel ...

PS - just think, under the Bloody Tyrant, there were not even oligarchs. And effective managers for modest accidental embezzlement were illegally repressed. And even the results of the work were checked. Horror horror. Whether it’s the case today.

[Boris55]

Quote: Alexander Romanov

668 thousand shot, the price of human life is zero.

Could you clarify how many of them were Bandera, green brothers, policemen and traitors who faithfully served the Nazis, just sadistic criminals?

[Aleksander]

Quote: svp67

most of all subjected to repression "employees", these are those whom we now call "effective managers" and "office plankton". There is something to think about.

No, the vast majority are farmers- former kulaks (the case was called "kulak"), as well as workers, handicraftsmen, individual farmers, that is, the flesh of the people.
And here, yes, there is something to think about ....

[Outsider V.]

No, the overwhelming number of peasants-former kulaks (the case was called “kulak”), as well as workers, handicraftsmen, individual farmers, that is, the flesh of the people.

Don't make it up. If we talk about "Yezhovism" (the surge of repressions in 1937-1938 with a large number of death sentences), then the overwhelming majority of the "political" belonged to the class of party managers. Representatives of the scientific and engineering intelligentsia also went there (unfortunately). What kind of "flesh of the flesh of the people" is there?

Khrushchev, along with artels, etc.

[Aleksander]

Quote: By outsiders V.

Do not invent

Stop the bad habit of giving advice.

Quote: By outsiders V.

If we talk about "Yezhovism" (the surge of repressions in 1937-1938 with a large number of death sentences), then the overwhelming majority of the "political" belonged to the class of party managers. Representatives of the scientific and engineering intelligentsia also got there (unfortunately). What kind of "flesh of the flesh of the people" is there?

You are simply lying: the vast majority are peasants (fists in the interpretation of the communes), even though you read the article, there is a HELP.

[Outsider V.]

Stop the bad habit of giving advice.

Criticism accepted, bad habit.

You just lie

Well, here you go too far. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not lying intentionally.

The question of the social origin of these kulaks (or "kulaks") is not easy. It seems that you will have to study this issue more deeply, and only then return to the discussion. Now I have nothing to oppose to the given summary.

[Aleksander]

Quote: By outsiders V.

Well, here you go too far. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not lying intentionally.

Sorry for the harshness, since it is, but the peremptory nature of your statement with the help provided in the article caused rejection.

[Outsider V.]

Apologies are accepted.

[Gardamir]

Yes, not the law is terrible. Terrible lawlessness, elevated to the rank of law! However, it is said: an injustice committed by one servant of the law is to a certain extent dishonorable by the law itself!

funny, isn’t it said about our times?
and secondly, what kind of muck is the authorities preparing that they again rushed to pour mud on the past? Better to talk about the 90s from which the entire current government emerged. Or is this article an excuse for surrendered athletes?

[antivirus]

Quote: venaya

The article is more interesting than the previous part, only the end of the article is completely perplexing:

Terrible lawlessness, elevated to the rank of law! However, it is said: injustice committed by one servant of the law, to a certain extent dishonors the law itself!

Strange, documents are cited indicating that the country's government is striving to improve the work of the investigative committee with natural post-revolutionary childhood diseases, and the conclusion drawn from the article does not correspond to the content of the main part of the article. Something in the end is not what follows from the content of the article itself, some kind of omission, a flaw.

Everything will always be wrong. And not so. And not there. And not when. And not when. and...
Life was completely different. The peasants saw the world - it revolved around their hut-hut. And those who came to the "power structures" saw the same. There is no joy in the achievements of the country, of your city, but of relatives, neighbors in the house or on the street, yes. All other strangers. The Central Committee and the Central Office of the NKVD could not then create a system of legal state-va. And now: we have been creating for 25 years (declared) and where did they come from?
I won’t get any further.

[Timyr]

There were repressions, such a time. The author is amazed at how bad the investigators did, and whoever leads them there, people with 4 classes of education. These are former peasants. Well, how they loved the former one fact: in the Tsaritsyn district in 1912, teenagers born in 1900-1902 are not from the word at all.

[parusnik]

Somewhere in the year since 1992 in the Leningrad, then still, newspaper "Smena", lists of repressed were printed .. Surname, name, patronymic, year of birth, place of work .. And among them there were many people related to material values ​​... the counter-revolution was not canceled then ... by the way, they did not print for a long time ... they suddenly started, suddenly they stopped ...

[Was mammoth]

Yesterday, along with the first half of this article, there was an article about a unified history textbook. So think about what a unified history textbook will turn out if "modern historians" write it. After all, in a frenzy they "spit" even their inspirers, but so far they do not reach Solzhenitsin: "Modern Russian historians estimate the number of prisoners only in the" kulak operation "to 820 thousand, of which from 437 thousand to 445 thousand were shot." So, the data submitted to Khrushchev are false, as well as the data from this multivolume book? By the way, why does it not contain a chapter on repression against sexual minorities? Without this, the multivolume loses its "modern" reliability and underestimation of victims. By the way, mind you, equality is put between the victim and the repressed.
Rank money, degrees of scholarships, grants ... - all this can be obtained now by sucking up negative things about the USSR, on anti-communism. I think so. G. Shpakovsky, can you dispel my doubts? Maybe, after all, at least one scholar in the last couple of decades has received any degree for studying, say, the terror of his people, even for the reign of the last king? And which article from the NKVD Order of 30.07.1937/00447/XNUMX No. XNUMX do you disagree with?

[nekot]

In February 1954, a note was prepared in the name of N. S. Khrushchev, signed by the Prosecutor General of the USSR R. Rudenko, the Minister of Internal Affairs of the USSR S. Kruglov and the Minister of Justice of the USSR K. Gorshenin, in which the number of convicted for counter-revolutionary crimes for the period from 1921 to February 1, 1954 According to the certificate, a total of 3 people were convicted by the OGPU Board, the NKVD Troika, the Special Conference, the Military College, the courts and military tribunals, including 777 people were sentenced to death person. Accordingly, I would like to know where the author got the table given in the article, since 380 years and 642 years is a big difference. And is it worth to believe in all the information provided in the article so advertised by the author and distributed free of charge on the GARF website?

[Basil50]

The phenomenon of all * truth-cutters * is that they refer to each other for the likeness of what is written, and the numbers are taken from each other. No references to documents * are needed by the truth-makers *, for them, the supreme measure is the approval of the curators.
Today, * an icon * for * truth-tellers * is Solzhenitsyn, who in England found both a customer and a publisher. Today they are trying to push him into the classics, omitting his close cooperation with the British secret services, to which he himself referred to * documentary evidence * of the horrors of the Gulag, and mediocrity as a writer.

[Outsider V.]

Today, * an icon * for * truth-tellers * is Solzhenitsyn, who in England found both a customer and a publisher.

Why in England? Solzhenitsyn was published in the YMCA-Press, this publishing house was then located in Paris.

[Aleksander]

for 1937-38, under the direction of party NKVD bodies did a great job of defeating the enemies of the people and cleaning the USSR of numerous espionage, terrorist, sabotage and wrecking cadres of Trotskyists, Bukharinites, Socialist-Revolutionaries, Mensheviks, bourgeois nationalists, White Guards, runaway fists and criminals

So it is: -twenty years already the comm power, they have already killed, imprisoned, exiled millions of "enemies", and the country is still full of enemies, and the commies are just surrounded by enemies!

Sick people, paranoid obsessed with persecution mania! And it didn’t come to them, in their miserable little heads, that they- and "enemies of the people" will disappearbecause they existed only in their manic brains. And they, the people who seized power, are the most dangerous for society real enemies of the people.
They didn’t look around: how did other countries (with all their problems and injustices) survive WITHOUT the destruction of millions of their compatriots?

It happens when the minority party, which has never won any elections, holds power, its weapon to hold power is terror, lies and fear.

enemies of the people often used skillfully to get into the bodies of the NKVD and the Prosecutor's Office - both in the center and in the localities.

enemies of the people and spies of foreign intelligence who made their way to the NKVD bodies, both in the center and in the localities (emphasized by the author!), while continuing to carry out their subversive work,

WHO organized the "penetration", who Ish to organize such a huge operation of thousands of devotees, who led? D b! They themselves created the system and the rules in it; they themselves ate each other.

Although, of course, it’s good that they destroyed their faithful executioners-dogs, who simply faithfully carried out an absolutely clear order: it was still NOT People.

Yagoda "cleaned" the Trotskyists, Yezhov "cleaned" the berries, Beria cleaned the Yezhovites, Khrushchev cleaned the Beriaites, the Khrushchevites were also cleaned: a wild ball of poisonous "comrades-in-arms" devouring each other.

Well, gobbled up each other is good, but the millions of NORMAL citizens repressed by them, are they WHY?

Thanks to the author, plus article.

[DimerVladimer]

I agree - the "enemies of the people" were Stalin and his entourage.
And how were the purges made?
- If Stalin "figured it out" with his party comrades, through formal courts (by beating people up and beating out the necessary testimony), then they did not stand on ceremony with people easier - he signed a bill of indictment - a bullet in the basement and in a pit outside the city. At best, a dozen camps, and if health is enough, it will survive ...

[sdv68]

Quote: DimerVladimer

And how were the purges made?

You can tell. Where the legs grow from. And they grow from two sources.

1. The conspiracy of the marshals actually had a place to be, and Tukhachevsky (the failed Napoleon, the genius of the Warsaw operation) was at the head of it. After his arrest, he went along the chain.

2. After the adoption of the Stalinist constitution, they wanted to gently remove the party from power. Let me remind you that the CPSU (b) appeared in it only in one single article, and then only as one of the public associations (organizations) where people can join at will. So the party members did not want to change their warm seats and immediately (in order to show their importance) began to overwhelm the Central Committee with "revelations" about exposing counter-revolutionary groups. More details can be found in the historian Yuri Zhukov - "Stalin's Bogey" (https://malchish.org/lib/Stalin/Jupel.htm)

PS: To show that your arguments about the "criminal regime" are not worth a damn, then try to answer one single question - why the 37th was only a single copy. And it did not repeat itself either earlier or later.

[Aleksander]

Quote: sdv68

1. The conspiracy of the marshals actually had a place to be, and Tukhachevsky (the failed Napoleon, the genius of the Warsaw operation) was at the head of it. After his arrest, he went along the chain.

1. Yeah, "conspiracy" : ALL participants in the "conspiracy" RABILITATED in the legal order "in the absence of corpus delicti."

Quote: sdv68

2. After the adoption of the Stalinist constitution, the party wanted to gently remove from power

2. Yes, enemies around! WHO wanted, WHO could ?!
This is called paranoia-mania persecution.
Stalin's telegram started a great terror, and not the mythical party members, who were afraid in real life even to fart not by order.

[Cat man null]

Quote: Aleksander

1. Yeah, "conspiracy": ALL participants in the "conspiracy" are RABILITATED in the legal order "for the absence of corpus delicti."

- when and by whom, do not remind?

Quote: sdv68

After the adoption of the Stalinist constitution, they wanted to gently remove the party from power.

- and it had to be done. What the power of the "party" (or rather, a certain clan of "chosen" and uncontrollable, into which the top of the party degenerated as a result) has clearly shown the collapse of this top of the Union and all the events that followed.

Somehow

[sdv68]

Quote: Cat Man Null

- and it had to be done.

I agree. But Stalin was simply not allowed to. In 36-37th - it ended in global terror. In 52-53, the death of Stalin himself.

[Aleksander]

Quote: Cat Man Null

when and by whom, do not remind

The Supreme Court of the USSR in the 1957 year. Of another judicial decision refuting this is not.

All conspiratorial fingers of sucking are wretched, as is the process of condemning them.

PS The fact that this beast, like other red beasts uborevichi-yakirs destroyed, previously breaking their identities, I am satisfied, of course.

[Cat man null]

Quote: Aleksander

The Supreme Court of the USSR in 1957. There is no other court decision refuting this.

- many letters. Rehabilitated - Khrushchev, all other "power", except for the party, under the Union was only a screen.
- there is no solution - since it is (so far) unprofitable for those in power. No more

And all

[Aleksander]

Quote: Cat Man Null

Rehabilitated - Khrushchev, all other "power", except for the party, under the Union was only a screen

Officially by court. And this court is more like a court than the "court" of 1937. Either you like knocked-out "evidence" (confessions), or amusing "trial" of the highest military leaders of the Red Army FOR ONE DAY, the EIGHT person condemning a complex case, who were shot that very evening?
If so, I sympathize with you.

[sdv68]

Quote: Aleksander

1. Yeah, "conspiracy": ALL participants in the "conspiracy" are RABILITATED in the legal order "for the absence of corpus delicti."

Yeah. In about the same way as our "Duma" in a completely "legal order" on the basis of "five pieces of paper", which even in the toilet can not be used, adopted a resolution recognizing Katyn.

Politics and nothing more.

Quote: Aleksander

2. Yes, enemies around! WHO wanted, WHO could ?!

Well no. All around were solid friends. The Japanese in the Far East are friends. Poles (starving up to 80 thousand Red Army soldiers) friends .... You can list for a long time.

Quote: Aleksander

Stalin’s telegram launched a great terror, not mythical party members,

But this "telegram" is only in the heads of our liberals. Nobody (like the originals of the joint venture) saw it in the eye. This is about the same as Rezunov's "order" from Day-M. The one that, according to him, was "sent to all the troops," incl. and in the borderlands. But Nebbels with his propaganda machine never got to the given orders. Otherwise, at the end of June he would (on a legal basis) squeal from all the successors that Germany had only prevented the attack of the Red Army.

[Aleksander]

Quote: sdv68

That's just this "telegram" is only in the minds of our liberals. None of her (like the originals of the joint venture) is in the eyes of

It does not exist only among the communists stubborn to death:

AP RF. F. 3. Op. 58. D. 212. L. 32. Script. Typescript.

[DimerVladimer]

Quote: sdv68

You can tell. Where the legs grow from. And they grow from two sources.

1. The conspiracy of the marshals actually had a place to be, and Tukhachevsky (the failed Napoleon, the genius of the Warsaw operation) was at the head of it. After his arrest, he went along the chain.

They can be understood - before their eyes, from the leader of the third hand - nothing remarkable, Stalin grows into a figure, removes political rivals, using the most barbaric method - eliminating them physically under far-fetched pretexts. Blaming the most ridiculous crimes - such as working for all kinds of intelligence ...
It purges the party — eliminating those who disagree, it’s all been open for a long time and it’s stupid to deny it. Stalin is a criminal! And many military men understood this, saw what was happening.
only for a behind-the-scenes discussion, an assessment that a great terror is going on in the country - could one become Stalin's personal enemy, in spite of any merits.

[Mavrikiy]

Quote: DimerVladimer

Quote: sdv68

You can tell. Where the legs grow from. And they grow from two sources.

1. The conspiracy of the marshals actually had a place to be, and Tukhachevsky (the failed Napoleon, the genius of the Warsaw operation) was at the head of it. After his arrest, he went along the chain.

They can be understood - before their eyes, from the leader of the third hand - nothing remarkable, Stalin grows into a figure, removes political rivals, using the most barbaric method - eliminating them physically under far-fetched pretext. Stalin is a criminal! And many military men understood this, saw what was happening.
only for a behind-the-scenes discussion, an assessment that a great terror is going on in the country - could one become Stalin's personal enemy, in spite of any merits.

Darling, calm down, all is well ...
Stalin is a criminal! Was the court? Proven? And your opinion on the fence.
Poor Stalin in a coffin spins. Roosevelt respected, Churchill respected, the whole world respected, and with Dmitry Vladimirovich wai, no luck. Does not respect!
I hope Stalin will return and D.V. will fix it myself.

[DimerVladimer]

Quote: Mavrikiy

I hope Stalin will return and D.V. will fix it myself.

- do not return from there

Do not know the story - do not make ridiculous statements:
do not confuse RESPECT and forced alliance against a common enemy.
Section of spheres of influence at the Tehran Conference - already then Churchill tried to oppose the opinion of Stalin. At the Yalta Conference, he very specifically opposed Stalin's demands for a post-war division of Europe.
After the victory over Germany - Churchill's opinion was openly hostile to the USSR - will you argue?

More ridiculous statements about "respect" for Stalin - still look.
What are you Stalinists illiterate!

[Mavrikiy]

Quote: DimerVladimer

Quote: Mavrikiy

I hope Stalin will return and D.V. will fix it myself.

- do not return from there

MAN, WHERE WERE YOU SLEEP IN? HE ALREADY BACK.

More ridiculous statements about "respect" for Stalin - still look.
What are you Stalinists illiterate!

You have a rocket launcher, enough grammar books to read:
"The British Encyclopedia of the 1964 edition, volume 5, page 250, information about Stalin:

From a speech by W. Churchill in the House of Lords on December 21, 1959, on the occasion of the 80 anniversary of the birth of I.V. Stalin:

“It was great happiness for Russia that during the years of difficult trials, Russia was headed by the genius and unshakable commander I.V. Stalin. He was an outstanding personality who impressed the cruel time of the period in which his whole life passed.

Stalin was a man of extraordinary energy, erudition and unbending will, sharp, tough, merciless both in business and in conversation, which even I, raised in the English parliament, could not oppose.

Stalin, above all, had a great sense of sarcasm and humor, as well as the ability to accurately express his thoughts. Stalin wrote speeches only himself, and gigantic power always sounded in his works. This power was so great in Stalin that it seemed unique among the leaders of all times and peoples.

Stalin made the greatest impression on us. His influence on people was irresistible. When he entered the hall of the Yalta Conference, we all, as if on command, stood up and, strange thing, for some reason held our hands at the seams.
He possessed a deep, devoid of any panic, logical and meaningful wisdom. Stalin was an unsurpassed master in finding in difficult moments the way out of the most hopeless situation. In the most difficult moments, as well as in moments of triumph, he was equally restrained, never succumbed to illusions. He was an unusually complex person. He created and subjugated a vast empire. It was a man who destroyed his enemy with his hands and made us, whom he openly called imperialists, rebel against the imperialists.

Stalin was the greatest, unparalleled dictator in the world. He accepted Russia with a plow, and left it equipped with atomic weapons.

No! No matter what they say about him, such stories and peoples do not forget. ”

[Aleksander]

Quote: Mavrikiy

Stalin was the greatest, unparalleled dictator in the world. He accepted Russia with a plow, and left equipped with atomic weapons.

No speeches in December 1959 (at the height of the Cold War!) In honor of Stalin Churchill, of course, didn't pronounce. In November-December, he was very ill, ordered the place of his funeral and could not even write letters.

6 March 1953 year, the day after the death of Stalin, an obituary appeared in the left-Labor Manchester Guardian, signed Polish Jew living in England Isaac Drocher. Here, among other things, it was said: “The essence of Stalin’s historical achievements is that he got Russia plowing with wooden plows and leaves it equipped with nuclear reactors.” This statement was included in Deutscher’s book “Russia after Stalin” (1953) and, most importantly, in the British Encyclopedia (i.e., 21, 1964). The article "Stalin" is signed here with the initials "ID" ("Isaac Deutscher").
Oh, wrong - Deutscher!

[looker-on]

I ply you as I can, but they are everywhere (

[sdv68]

Quote: Aleksander

So it goes like this: -twenty years already the communist authorities have already killed, imprisoned, exiled millions of "enemies",

Your untruth. Hundreds of thousands of millenia will be more correct.

Quote: Aleksander

and the country is still full of enemies, and comedians are rightly surrounded by enemies!

The Japanese are friends, the Poles are friends, who set up the "golden blockade" (one of the reasons for the famine in the 32-33s) are great friends. And these "friends", of course, do not have any agents on the territory of the USSR.

Quote: Aleksander

So it happens when a minority party, which has never won any elections, holds onto power, its weapon to hold onto power is terror, lies and fear.

But this "fear" was only in the report of the maize. Read the memoirs of those years. Prior to this "secret report", not only ordinary citizens, but also the party superwoman (sitting at the meetings of the XX Congress) was not aware of "those terrible iniquities." And so, whoever, it was this party-top who had to have a constantly assembled "alarming suitcase" with a change of underwear. But no. THEY WERE OUT OF COURSE. Read your memoirs.

Quote: Aleksander

WHO organized the "penetration", who could organize such a huge operation of thousands of zaslanets, who was in charge?

Watch any movie about scouts. Well, or read the memoirs of the same Otto Skorzeny, whose quote I quoted here.

Quote: Aleksander

Although, of course, it’s good that they destroyed their faithful executioners-dogs, who simply faithfully carried out an absolutely clear order: it was still NOT People.

But now they are on the lists of "victims of the bloody regime." Kukuruznik was one of the first to rehabilitate his associates - some of their main executioners, who arranged the 37-38 years of Eikhe and Postyshev.

Quote: Aleksander

but the millions of NORMAL citizens repressed by them are they, and WHY?

Your information is not correct - not millions, but billions. More precisely one and a half thousand milen. This has long been known to everyone.

[Aleksander]

Quote: sdv68

The Japanese are friends, the Poles are friends, who set up the "golden blockade" (one of the reasons for the famine in the 32-33s) are great friends. And these "friends", of course, do not have any agents on the territory of the USSR.

You do NOT know how to read: we are talking about internal enemies, they were destroyed - the article READ-in the help-all of OUR.

Quote: sdv68

But this "fear" was only in the report of the maize. Read the memoirs of those years. Prior to this "secret report", not only ordinary citizens, but also the party superwoman (sitting at the meetings of the XX Congress) was not aware of "those terrible iniquities." And, whoever, it was this party-top who had to have a constantly assembled "alarming suitcase" with a change of underwear. But no. THEY WERE OUT OF COURSE. Read the memoirs

Whose memoirs? 70% of the annihilated members of the Central Committee of the 17 congress and other kommerunda did not know that they were being destroyed? They knew, and often simply committed suicide. Read about them. I know about fear directly from my grandmother — in the children's town among the teachers, people with 1937-39 -3 people were arrested and disappeared forever, but everyone else lived in wild fear until the war — no one understood and was afraid of everything.

Quote: sdv68

Your information is not correct - not millions, but billions. More precisely one and a half thousand milen. This has long been known to everyone.

This is wrong with you, there were NO repressed at all, because the Stalinist textbook does NOT say anything about them, you don’t recognize it ...

[sdv68]

Quote: Aleksander

You do NOT know how to read: we are talking about internal enemies, they were destroyed - the article READ-in the help-all of OUR.

Those. you admit the presence of external enemies. Already progress. When you admit that external enemies could have a deployed spyen network on the territory of Russia - then we'll talk. In addition to obvious shpiens, there were also internal enemies who consciously (like former kulaks) and unconsciously (like, for example, Korolev, Vavilov, who actually sat down for “not targeting” - not profitable use of state funds) harmed the state. All this "counter-revolutionary crack" of the 58th is nothing more than an analogue of modern articles for espionage, terrorism, for treason. You will laugh if you learn that the 58th is almost in full (with no big exception) in modern UK. Even such an article, loved by the liberals as "the responsibility of the ChSIR", is called "for failure to report an impending crime."

Quote: Aleksander

Whose memoirs?

For example, there is a wonderful book by Boris Evseevich Chertok "Rockets and People" (4 volumes) He thoroughly shows that time in it. Incl. and about Korolyov and about his relationship with Glushko (thus, who wrote a denunciation on Korolyov, and then made engines for Gagarin's rockets and thereby became the gravedigger of the Soviet lunar program). There is a lot about how they learned "about the personality cult" and how they were surprised by this fact.

Quote: Aleksander

This is wrong with you, there were NO repressed at all, because the Stalinist textbook does NOT say anything about them, you don’t recognize

I was born a little later and did not read Stalin's textbooks. My information is mainly from the data of Zemskov. And he has from the archives (see the plate in this thread).

[Aleksander]

Quote: sdv68

that external enemies could have a deployed spien network on the territory of Russia - that's when we'll talk. In addition to the obvious shpiens, there were also internal enemies who consciously (like former kulaks) and unconsciously (like, for example, Korolev, Vavilov, who actually sat down for "not targeting" - not profitable use of state funds) harmed the state

Yes, 100 000 only Polish spies! D, B!
You are not interesting to me; combred about millions of internal "enemies", by the way, justified in the majority? What does he stand against the background of those given in the article documents, and there are thousands of such documents. Open the Istmat site, the collectivization, repression and pr-hair section stand on end from the atrocities of the beasts (in normal people, not in comedians).

The symbol of the Bolshevik system is Soviet ISLAND OF ANNEALERS NAZINO-explore

[parusnik]

Aleksander and comedians are rightly surrounded by enemies!... For 20 years of service From 1933-1953, 338 border trespassers were detained on the Karatsup border and destroyed 129 spies and saboteurs who had not laid down their arms ...
And kapiks or demos, as they are, are still shouting about the Russian threat, from the beginning they shouted about the Soviet one, almost from October 1917 .. until 1991 .. And the same where the leftists will not take power, shout: aaaa Soviet threat .. Surround .. At kapikov or demiks .. now terrorists in comrades ..

[Mavrikiy]

Aleksander (2) MD Today
Yes, you see already and there is no commie in power, but the bastard is corrupt, liberal and rushing. They didn’t shoot, they were mistaken. Trotskyist Khrushchev and Co. turned out. And overwhelmed the country.

[sdv68]

because more than 1 million Soviet citizens, most of whom were of ENTRY AGE, somehow sided with the Nazis and fought along with them.

A million is certainly a lot. Especially in absolute numbers. But they do not reflect the reality of the percentage of betrayal. Let me remind you that:

First, we must take into account that this million was from almost 36-37 million of the called-up population of the country, and more than 70 million of them remained in the territory occupied by the Fritz. Calculate the percentage of traitors yourself. But he was 100% less than European collaboration. For example, French. But in France there was no repression, there was no dispossession, there were no Bolsheviks / Communists, there was no Stalin. But in fact there were more traitors. Why's that ?

Secondly, not all of the above "million" fought with arms against the Red Army. Well, the Fritzes did not trust our traitors. They feared double betrayal. But the local nationalists Baltic, Crimean Tatar, Ukrainian ... served for the Fritzes "not for fear, but for conscience." They hoped (by naivety) that the Fritzes would help them "overthrow the Bolsheviks" and create their own "independent states".

[sdv68]

Here is what Hitler's favorite Otto Skorzeny wrote about the purification of the Red Army in 37-38.

“After a total, terrible purge of 1937, a new, political Russian army appeared that could endure the most brutal battles. "Russian generals carried out orders, and did not engage in conspiracies and betrayal, as often happened in our highest posts."

Otto Skorzeny "Unknown War"

PS: And here are the real numbers of repressions for the years.

[DimerVladimer]

The system was basically criminal, the number of victims does not matter.
Sentences were handed down without ships - people were quietly shot and dumped in mines. Not far from my house is an old mine, filled with the remains of those executed, taken out of the city at night.
A just cause is not done at night, people are not executed like cattle and are not thrown into anonymous pits - the Stalinist regime was CRIMINAL, BLOODY and UNLAWFUL.

[potroshenko]

Hush! Now the lumpen Baikal will come with the emblem of the USSR on the avatar and will call you gay.

[chenia]

Quote: DimerVladimer

the number of victims does not matter.

Doesn’t, say. Name power in Russia (and in the world too) which did not kill its internal opponents.

And as Nikolay 11 shot, so now they want to appoint him to the saints.

[Mavrikiy]

Quote: chenia

Quote: DimerVladimer

the number of victims does not matter.

Doesn’t, say. Name power in Russia (and in the world too) which did not kill its internal opponents.

And as Nikolay 11 shot, so now they want to appoint him to the saints.

Why are you lying? If Nikolai 11 shot, there would be no revolution. By the way, look at the statistics of the victims of the tsarist "tyranny", do not lie. Executed revolutionaries and victims of "revolutionary terror. And then Pease., .. Go to your fence, write.

[Outsider V.]

Well, that sentences were pronounced without courts - these are speculations of the perestroika period. One can argue about whether the guilt of the convicted / executed was real, it is possible to dispute the compliance of the Troika with the constitution, but the formalities were just strictly followed.

[Aleksander]

Quote: By outsiders V.

Well, that sentences were pronounced without courts - these are speculations of the perestroika period. One can argue about whether the guilt of the convicted / executed was real, it is possible to dispute the compliance of the Troika with the constitution, but the formalities were just strictly followed.

This is Y YOU speculation on sentences "ships". There were no courts in the overwhelming number of cases, above is Pavlov's reference, who convicted.

There is nothing to argue about: people are NOT convicted by the court, which means they are innocent, because even by owls. the laws of those times, only the court can call a person guilty.

Threes, deuces and -crime, this is the conclusion of the state of the USSR:
January 16, 1989

In order to restore social justice and eliminate the consequences of lawlessness that took place during the 30-40-s and the beginning of the 50-s, the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR decides:

1. Condemn Extrajudicial Mass repressions of the period of Stalinism, declare unconstitutional the “troika” of the NKVD — UNKVD, the colleges of the OGPU and the “special meetings” of the NKVD — MGB — the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the USSR that were in force in the 30 — 40’s and early 50’s and annul the extrajudicial decisions made by them

[sdv68]

Quote: DimerVladimer

The system was basically criminal, the number of victims does not matter.

It matters whether they were guilty or not. I don’t know about you, but personally I don’t feel sorry for killers, rapists, spies, terrorists ... "A thief should sit in jail" (c) And in the Gulag, for your information, they got not only and not so much "for politics." More than 80% of the population of the Gulag were ordinary criminals ala "black cat". Or are you sorry for the "hunchback"? Yes, often, and criminals went "in politics". For the process itself, built "on troikas" (which only considered politics) was quite prompt. And, instead of the rapist waiting for the trial, it is easier to push him through politics. For example, if he "raped a Komsomol member" (let alone a "party member" and even more so).

Quote: DimerVladimer

A just cause is not done at night, people are not executed like cattle and they are not thrown together in nameless pits -

In fact, there was reporting back then. And any "pits" must pass according to the documents. Bureaucracy is not a modern invention.

[DimerVladimer]

No one is sorry for murderers and rapists - only this fraternity did not pass as well.
Several hundred remains were raised from the mine - and there are tens of thousands - priests, civil servants, working engineers - somehow there is no criminal element - completely "political".
There are no exact figures how many in this mine from several thousand

[sdv68]

Quote: DimerVladimer

No one is sorry for murderers and rapists - only this fraternity did not pass as well.

Watch the movie "Cold Summer of 53" at your leisure. Well, or read "Kolyma Tales". Although there is not a lot of truth in them (everyone who is sitting is innocent by default), there is also about criminals in the Gulag.

Quote: DimerVladimer

Several hundred remains were raised from the mine - and there are tens of thousands - priests, civil servants, working engineers - somehow there is no criminal element - completely "political".

And on the "remains" so immediately you can establish passport data and social affiliation? Do not make me laugh. They were buried along with their passports? And what, a worker, an engineer cannot be a murderer, a rapist? Remind about Chikatilo, whom all colleagues, friends, acquaintances considered a very modest and decent person.

Quote: DimerVladimer

There are no exact figures how many in this mine from several thousand

What kind of mine, where? And what is the date of death? Otherwise, it will be like in a failed sensation near Moscow http://nnm.me/blogs/Dmitry68/grandioznaya-lozh-o-stalinskih-repressiyah/ For a month they talked about "a new burial of NKVD victims", but in fact it turned out that the corpses had already years for lunch ". And then they were silent about them. Share only a small note in the newspaper. All the editorials wrote about the "victims".

[DimerVladimer]

Quote: sdv68

What kind of mine, where? And what is the date of death? Otherwise, it will be like in a failed near Moscow sensation //nnm.me/blogs/Dmitry68/grandioznaya-lozh-o-stalinskih-repressiyah/ For a month they talked about "a new burial of NKVD victims", but in fact it turned out that the corpses are already "a hundred years old dinner". And then they were silent about them. Share only a small note in the newspaper. All the editorials wrote about the "victims".

Golden Mountain - (the original name is "Bald Mountain") - a place of mass graves near the city of Chelyabinsk

Prospector Yuri Gerasimov first discovered human remains in one of the mines in 1946. But he reported the find many years later, in 1989. The Chelyabinsk human rights society Memorial undertook excavations in the mines, for which a special commission was created at the city executive committee.

In the summer of 1989, the remains of 350 people were recovered from the mines of the Golden Mountain. Experts determined that the burial took place during 1936 to 1939 years. According to the NKVD, in the Southern Urals for political reasons 37 041 people were repressed, 11 592 of them were shot. The names of those whose remains were discovered on the Golden Mountain could not be established. It is estimated that about 12 thousand people rest on the Golden Mountain.

What kind of evidence do you need of Stalin’s criminal activity? And do not have tales about killers and rapists.
And how many such burials in the country? How many nameless graves? My father flew in the north from the air you can clearly see the number of camps.
How many people died in them - will you deny too?

[sdv68]

Quote: DimerVladimer

The Chelyabinsk human rights society Memorial undertook excavations in the mines, for which a special commission was created at the city executive committee.

Look for yourself whom Memorial considers "victims of political repression" - http://a-dyukov.livejournal.com/1297448.html - I will not re-publish it. There is a desire to go to the link yourself.

Quote: DimerVladimer

According to the NKVD, in the Southern Urals, 37 people were repressed for political reasons, 041 of them were executed. The names of those whose remains were discovered on the Golden Mountain could not be established. It is estimated that about 11 thousand people rest on the Golden Mountain.

Those. In total, 11.5 thousand people were shot in the Urals, and almost 12 were added to your mountain? Was that the central burial ground for the entire Southern Urals?

Quote: DimerVladimer

My father flew in the north from the air you can clearly see the number of camps.

So what ? You are aware that less than 18-20% of the gulag were "political". Consequently (if we take in the camps) only one fifth of these "camps" belongs to political ones. Or do you still stand up for murderers / rapists?

PS: By the way, you have not answered the question. Are they all there with passports? And why did they extract only 350, and not all 12 thousand? Indeed, since the 89th, more than a quarter century has passed. Maybe it's like a fairy tale about Katyn with its 22 thousand, where they dug up about a thousand.

[DimerVladimer]

Quote: sdv68

Those. In total, 11.5 thousand people were shot in the Urals, and almost 12 were added to your mountain? Was that the central burial ground for the entire Southern Urals?

Of course - the regional FSB is still here, the cellars are waiting for the order ...

Quote: sdv68

By the way, you have not answered the question. Are they all there with passports? And why did they extract only 350, and not all 12 thousand? Indeed, since the 89th, more than a quarter century has passed. Maybe it's like a fairy tale about Katyn with its 22 thousand, where they dug up about a thousand.

Do you know the places where everyone was recovered? Nicholas family -2 how many were looking for and expertise?

No one took out - no one funded. So it is unpleasant to stir up the black past with so many executioners left grandchildren who continue the dynasty.
You and the NKVD documents for that period will also dispute?

[sdv68]

Quote: DimerVladimer

Of course - the regional FSB is still here, the cellars are waiting for the order ...

But to think before writing is not fate? For the last quarter century, anti-Stalinists have been in power in Russia, and until now, most of the archives of the time are under lock and key. Why's that ?

Quote: DimerVladimer

Do you know the places where everyone was recovered? Nicholas family -2 how many were looking for and expertise?

Those. the main thing is to spoil the air with another lie. Reminds the words of Solzhenitsyn - "it's easier to spit than to wipe, so he preferred to spit first."

[Aleksander]

Quote: sdv68

I don’t know about you, but personally I don’t feel sorry for killers, rapists, spies, terrorists ..

And I feel sorry for these innocent people. Innocent because they are NOT convicted and deprived defense, fair trial under the Constitution, right of appeal.
How many innocent people were killed, nobody knows, maybe 90%, maybe-50%.

Where would you prefer the proceedings (according to the idiotic, say, denunciation of a neighbor) in the Troika or in the NORMAL court? That and that and those PEOPLE wanted to live and fair trial, but criminal power has robbed them of this fundamental human right.

[sdv68]

Quote: Aleksander

And I feel sorry for these innocent people. Innocent because they were NOT convicted by the court and were deprived of protection, fair trial under the Constitution, the right to appeal.

And to me personally, it’s absolutely for the drum who condemned the rapist, murderer, spy, terrorist - jury trial, people's court, special meeting, triples or even lynching court. I do not feel sorry for them. They got what they deserved.

It's good to be idealistic. And I advise you at your leisure to think about whether you will remain with your opinion (about the fairness of the judicial system) if, for example, you find a rapist at the scene of a crime (and your mother, wife, sister, young daughter ...) take him to court , and the court releases him, since "I did not find corpus delicti", "an error in the arrest procedure", "you crippled him yourself, and he filed a lawsuit against you." Such precedents happen all the time. Errors (and investigators, and prosecutors, and jurors ...) are quite capable of making. And here are your further actions, are you our fair? Will you leave the released rapist unpunished or will you still try to restore justice?

[Aleksander]

Quote: sdv68

I personally absolutely drummed who condemned the rapist, murderer, spy, terrorist - jury trial, people's court, special meeting, threes or even a lynching court. I do not feel sorry for them. They got what they deserved.

They-NOT rapists, killers, spies and terrorists, do not you still understand? Who called them murderers and rapists-Vasya Pupkin, a ruddy-feather or someone else who DOES NOT HAVE RIGHT to it!

You did not answer the question-you’ll go to court or top threeif necessary, if accused of rape on a denunciation?

And do not answer them, and so it is clear. It would be a bit sick to try on yourself.

And this is called hypocrisy.

Quote: sdv68

And I advise you at your leisure to think about whether you will stay with your opinion (about the fairness of the judicial system) if, for example, you find a rapist at the scene of a crime (and your mother, wife, sister, young daughter ...) are taking him to court. , and the court releases him, since "I did not find corpus delicti", "a mistake in carrying out the arrest procedure", "you yourself crippled him, and he brought you to court. Such precedents happen all the time. Errors (and investigators, and prosecutors, and jurors ...) are quite capable of making. And here are your further actions, are you our fair? Will you leave the released rapist unpunished or will you still try to restore justice?

Self-advice, please. The situation described - is unreal - there are witnesses and the victim, examination, what mistake? He will be punished in the cell.

So take the place of the "rapist", but not the real one, but the accused.
"C" we want, well, his court nafik, huh?
Yes Yes...

[sdv68]

Quote: Aleksander

NOT RIGHT to it!

And who is this ? Who do you call "ineligible"? Investigators, interrogators, prosecutors, judges ... Whom? Let me remind you that the "troikas" (by the way, at that time, quite so-so legal) existed only until November 38th. And there were "political" ones after them. Both Korolev and Vavilov went on trial for politics - and they were not tried by triplets. As for Vavilov, the investigation went on for more than 11 months. And the Korolev case was revised a year later, the verdict remained in force, and he got into a sharashka by profession. So who do you call "ineligible"?

Quote: Aleksander

Self-advice, please. The situation described - is unreal - there are witnesses and the victim, examination, what mistake? He will be punished in the cell.

You're as naive as a first grader. Such situations are now quite common. And only the blind and deaf are not aware of them. Literally a year and a half ago, a similar high-profile case was dealt with in St. Petersburg. When the father found his daughter in the situation I described, he gave the rapist the first number, and he himself ended up behind bars, and the rapist was free. I will not say that all rapists caught in such circumstances are successfully excused from punishment, but if he has a good lawyer, and the policemen made a procedural mistake during the arrest, then such a "criminal" has every chance to be released and not be in the cell at all.

[Aleksander]

Quote: sdv68

And who is this ? Who do you call "ineligible"? Investigators, interrogators, prosecutors, judges ... Whom? I remind you that the "troikas" (by the way, at that time it was quite so-so legal) existed only until November 38

Of course THEM. Legitimate, speak? Yes, you are frankly illiterate-read the Constitution of the USSR 36 of the year and the Laws on the court-HOW people should be condemned.
There is legal assessment of the state:
"1. [i]Condemn Extrajudicial Mass Repression the period of Stalinism, recognize the "troika" of the NKVD — UNKVD acting in the 30 — 40-s and the beginning of the 50-s, colleges of the OGPU and "special meetings" of the NKVD — MGB — the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the USSR and reverse their extrajudicial decisions .. "Decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR" On additional measures to restore justice in relation to victims of repressions that took place in the period 30-40s and early 50s "January 16, 1989
And your fabrications based on the above are simply ridiculous.

THIRD TIME I ask: if necessary, if accused of rape through denunciation - go to court or your favorite three?

"C", of course, right? Well, his nafik court, right?

However, the third time I will not hear the answer.

[sdv68]

Quote: Aleksander

Of course THEM. Legitimate, speak? Yes, you are frankly illiterate-read the Constitution of the USSR 36 of the year and the Laws on the court-HOW people should be condemned.

You yourself are not literate. Watch the video with Boris Yulin. He explains in sufficient detail why the "troikas" were absolutely legal in those years.

Quote: Aleksander

There is a legal assessment of the state:

...

And your fabrications based on the above are simply ridiculous.

Yeah. Exactly the same as the "recognition of Katyn" - politics. Incl. this is your absurd fabrications.

Quote: Aleksander

THIRD TIME I ask: if necessary, if accused of rape by denunciation, will you go to court or your favorite troika?

Learn the materiel of the "troika" we were not engaged in rape. However, as well as the consequence too.

[Aleksander]

Quote: sdv68

You yourself are not literate. Watch the video with Boris Yulin. He explains in sufficient detail why the "troikas" were absolutely legal in those years

Who is Yudin?
"Who is a Studebaker? Is this your relative of the Studebaker? Is your daddy your Studebaker?"(C)
Frank durachok, this is your Studebaker:
his 00447 order (and triples) is legal, because it was signed .... individual MEMBERS VTsiKK
For information, etc., the signature of the minister, member of the Supreme Council on any document is NOT a decision of the Cabinet of Ministers or the Supreme Council.!
Second "argument": "Did Yezhov have the right to issue order 447? "- Yes, he did."- cool argument!

But even if UDOBRED had been adopted, then the 447 order, the decision of the Politburo-illegal, because contrary to the Constitution of the USSR, as indicated by the Supreme Soviet of the USSR in 1989, pointing out the criminal nature of extrajudicial bodies.
And this legal document (these are not "signatures" memberwtsikov ), which entailed legal consequences in the form of the Laws of the USSR and Russia on the rehabilitation and compensation of victims of comrade criminals.

Stalin Constitution: 102 Article. Justice in the USSR is administered by the Supreme Court of the USSR, Supreme Courts of the Union Republics, regional and regional courts, courts of the autonomous republics and autonomous regions,
district courts, special courts of the USSR, created by
Decree of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR, people's courts.
111 Article. Proceedings in all courts of the USSR open
since the law does not provide for exceptions, with security
defendant the right to defense.
112 Article. Judges are independent and obey only the law.

And there are no triples, deuces, etc. of the com-bribe there, but there is a right to an OPEN trial, a right to defense and appeal.

Well, your convictions are understandable, but like this illiterate and cruel to people with unproven guilt, is it convenient for you to be? They wanted to live no less than you ..... Your links to clowns are ridiculous ....

Quote: sdv68

Learn the materiel of the "troika" we were not engaged in rape. However, as well as the consequence too.

You perfectly understand that the question is hypothetical and it is about the PRINCIPLE of conviction of YOU (let it be for slaughter by denunciation of the old trusted member), acceptable by you-a trio (or rather a deuce) or an ordinary court stipulated by the Constitution?

THE FOURTH TIME I ask, you are our hypocritical.

And again, silence ...

[sdv68]

Quote: Aleksander

Who is Yudin?

I do not know. And you ?

Quote: Aleksander

-Yes had "--- great argument!

Doubt it. Try to refute on the basis of the laws of that time and not on the basis of their interpretation according to today's patterns.

Quote: Aleksander

because contrary to the Constitution of the USSR,

In those years, everything was a little more complicated than you imagine. It is necessary to consider not only the constitution but also the entire body of laws. Why is there the USSR of the 30s. I can remind you that in "the most democratic country in the world" (the United States, if anyone does not understand), contrary to their constitution, minors were sentenced to death, not in the last century, but already at the beginning of this. But, you-like true lovers prefer to consider "the universal evil of steel and Stalinism in the open from the whole world."

Quote: Aleksander

And this is a legal document (these are not "signatures" of members), which entailed legal consequences in the form of the Laws of the USSR and Russia on the rehabilitation and compensation of victims of communist criminals.

This is not a legal document, but a political one, which was adopted to suit the political situation. Even the first de-stabilizer did not get to this.

Quote: Aleksander

You perfectly understand that the question is hypothetical and it is about the PRINCIPLE of conviction of YOU (let it be for slaughter by denunciation of the old trusted member), acceptable three of you (or better two) or the ordinary court provided for by the Constitution?

I live in a country and obey its laws. The triples were legal. The courts were legal. Special meetings were legal. Even the revolutionary tribunals were legal. T.ch. regardless of my preferences, will have to obey the law of the country. And, if the trio will consider the case, it means so be it.

[Aleksander]

Quote: sdv68

Try to refute based on the laws of the time

Try confirm based on the laws of even that time. Yulin, the frank d. Fool.

Quote: sdv68

It is necessary to consider not only the constitution but the entire code of laws

Lawyers considered in relation to owls. legislation of time and the result of their work is in the Decree of the Supreme Council.

Quote: sdv68

I can remind you that in the "most democratic country in the world" (the United States, if someone does not understand), contrary to their constitution, minors were sentenced to death and not in the last century, but already at the beginning of this

In the USA they killed for year 667 thousand their citizens?

Quote: sdv68

This is not a legal document, but a political one.

So here you are Nekopenhagen.
Legal document - material carrier, designed and compiled in accordance with the requirements of applicable law, creating rights and obligations of individuals.
What this decree returns the rights of the repressed and vesting the duties of the Council of Ministers, the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the Prosecutor's Office, etc., for its implementation in terms of rehabilitation.
Based on it came out:

14.11.89/XNUMX/XNUMX Declaration of the Supreme Soviet of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics "On the recognition of illegal and criminal acts of repression against the peoples subjected to forced resettlement, and ensuring their rights"

13.08.90 Decree of the President of the USSR "On the restoration of the rights of all victims of political repression of the 20-50s"

26.04.91 Law of the RSFSR of April 26, 1991 N 1107-I "On the rehabilitation of repressed peoples" (as amended on July 1, 1993)

18.10.91. RF Law "On the rehabilitation of victims of political repression"

18.10.91/18/1991 Resolution of the RSFSR Supreme Council of October XNUMX, XNUMX "On the Procedure for Enactment of the RSFSR Law" On the Rehabilitation of Victims of Political Repression "

And TENS and TENS legal by-laws. Or for you and the Laws are not legal. documents?

That is, for you that carnage that occurred during 1 years 91937-1938) is legal and correct, and ALL that during 70 years already condemns this slaughter, starting even with the above resolution of the Politburo-illegally and political order?

You are simply absurd from the outside in your stubbornness and you can’t prove ANYTHING or NOTHING except bringing your opinion, which, excuse me, is worth little.

Quote: sdv68

And, if the trio will consider the case, it means so be it.

And the question, so they did not answer, is the FIFTH time.

[sdv68]

Quote: Aleksander

Try to confirm on the basis of laws even of that time. Yulin, the frank d. Fool.

You build yourself up when you answer a question with a question.

Quote: Aleksander

Lawyers considered in relation to owls. legislation of that time and the result of their work is in the Decree of the Supreme Council.

And why did the "lawyers" go to the Supreme Soviet and not to the COURT. After all, it is from your words only COURT can decide lawfully (at that time) one or another law, order, decree ... you have "double standards".

Quote: Aleksander

In the United States killed 667 thousand of their citizens in a year?

In the United States, until 2008, the death penalty was applied to minors. And how many of them now sit on a lifelong (some on double, triple) and not count.

Quote: Aleksander

And TENS and dozens of legal documents, by-laws. Or for you and the Laws are not legal. documents?

POLITICAL, NOT LEGAL. The political system has changed in the country - and laws have been redone for it. And nothing more. (see my previous answer).

Quote: Aleksander

That is, for you that carnage that happened during 1 year 91937-1938) is legal and right

And I never stated this anywhere. Can you confirm your words? I said that "threes" are legal. And the fact that some of them (like the investigators / interrogators) acted illegally, incl. knocking out testimonies and building on similar "testimonies" of the case - they talked about it at the end of the 38th. With the arrival of Beria in the NKVD and the beginning of rehabilitation.

Well, vamp like I’m not rehabilitating Beria. After all, it was he and no one else who began in the 38th rehabilitation of innocent victims, and before the war he rehabilitated up to half a million people.

Quote: Aleksander

And the question, so they didn’t answer, is the FIFTH time

I replied. But to understand my answer, at least you need a head with brains not drenched in liberal propaganda.

[DimerVladimer]

Quote: sdv68

(and in the sacrifices your mother, wife, sister, young daughter ...) take him to court, and the court releases him, tk. "I did not find corpus delicti", "a mistake in carrying out the arrest procedure", "you yourself crippled him, and he brought you to court.

But they were silent on the drum, and Stalin destroyed the color of the nation, the color of the army.
Where did the 1941 military disaster come from?
And do not mix crime and convicts on political charges - they were not given a chance for a fair trial. Moreover - people were beaten in such a way that the person preferred to slander himself and others - as soon as the bullying would end.

It’s easy for you to cynically reason now - to look at you when your fingers break, your kidneys break, your ribs break, your teeth break out — but do you think that this will not affect you — since you always hesitate with party politics?

[Lord blacwood]

Where did the 1941 military disaster come from?

But what about the conspiracy of Tukhachevsky and other prominent military men. If Stalin had not begun repression, then a new civil war could have begun, and more would have died than from repression.

[sdv68]

Quote: Lord Blacwood

If Stalin had not begun repression, then a new civil war could have begun, and more would have died than from repression.

As for the civilian, most likely hardly. But it was quite possible to sharply weaken the country before the threat of an German attack. Current Ukraine is a vivid confirmation of this.

[Reptiloid]

Somewhere (????) I read that Western countries provoked Finland to start a war with the USSR. And they would all have connected, interventions, a civil war were planned. Though kill, I do not remember where I read.

[Aleksander]

Quote: Lord Blacwood

But what about the conspiracy of Tukhachevsky and other prominent military

existed only in the paranoid brains of the commissure, ALL rehabilitated.

[sdv68]

Quote: Aleksander

existed only in the paranoid brains of the commissure, ALL rehabilitated.

Perhaps that is why ORT (through and through liberal) showed the movie "Marshal's Conspiracy".

[chenia]

Quote: DimerVladimer

Where did the 1941 military disaster come from?

Where the military disaster came from 1940 of the year?

Probably the color of the army of Britain and France is also rotten.
(so they also had the army completely mobilized and went through combat coordination - 8 months of preparation, and an important strategic direction was covered).

We would have a month of preparation (deployment), and both our own and the German military elite are buried.
And by the year 44, they themselves ended without allies.

[sdv68]

Quote: chenia

(so they also had the army completely mobilized and went through combat coordination - 8 months of preparation, and an important strategic direction was covered).

Moreover. Nominally, the French army was already at war with Germany from September 3, 390th.

[DimerVladimer]

Quote: chenia

Where did the 1940 military disaster come from?

Probably the color of the army of Britain and France is also rotten.
(so they also had the army completely mobilized and went through combat coordination - 8 months of preparation, and an important strategic direction was covered).

We would have a month of preparation (deployment), and both our own and the German military elite are buried.
And by the year 44, they themselves ended without allies.

The harbinger of the 1941 disaster is a fiasco in the 1940 Winter War (Finnish company)
The military catastrophe of 1941 has many factors; the purges in the troops are one of them.
Who appointed Zhukov to the post of Nach Gen Staff? - although he was absolutely incapable of this position (in addition, ignorant and rude). They need systemic thinking and knowledge - academic education. And as a result, mediocre control - even to see how the troops were located on the eve of the war - raises big questions.

[chenia]

Quote: DimerVladimer

The military catastrophe of 1941 has many factors; the purges in the troops are one of them.

Some of them, but not so significant. (See below).
Who destroyed the color of the British and French army? The generals and officers corps of which consisted of people who definitely had

Quote: DimerVladimer

systems thinking and knowledge - academic education.

And so mediocre (terribly mediocre) to lose the war, having 8 months to prepare.

Yes, Zhukov is a genius in comparison with them. And if we had a month to deploy (and despite planning errors - push 2/3 MK into the first operational level), we would have finished Hitler by 44. Definitely.

[sdv68]

Quote: DimerVladimer

The harbinger of the 1941 disaster is a fiasco in the 1940 Winter War (Finnish company)

There was no fiasco. The goals of the war have been achieved. It was not possible to agree on a peaceful exchange of territories, or on the rent of a pair of islands. I had to fight. The goals of the war have been achieved.

Quote: DimerVladimer

The military catastrophe of 1941 has many factors; the purges in the troops are one of them.

Pavlov was not cleared in the 37th, but he simply put on the orders of the Kremlin. He did not comply with the direct order to bring the troops entrusted to him in full combat readiness (4 hours was quite enough). For which he (and some others) was shot.

Quote: DimerVladimer

Who appointed Zhukov to the post of Nach Gen Staff? - although he was absolutely incapable of this position (in addition, ignorant and rude). T

Well, we got to Zhukov. With all his political games after the war, he was one of the best military commanders of the Second World War.

Quote: DimerVladimer

And as a result, mediocre control - even to see how the troops were located on the eve of the war - raises big questions.

Look and think. On the border of our troops was not enough - so as not to provoke a premature blow. And the advance to the border began only after June 14th. But did not have time.

[sdv68]

Quote: DimerVladimer

But they were silent on the drum, and Stalin destroyed the color of the nation, the color of the army.

I remembered the joke:
----
- Stalin destroyed all the best that was in Russia - Pilnyak, Mandelstam, Meyerhold, Mikhoels! - said the Liberal.
“Uh ...” the People said carefully. - Of course, I am not anti-Semite and have nothing against the Jews ...
- And what have the Jews to do with it? asked the Liberal.
- And what does Stalin have to do with it? - the people answered.
------

Quote: DimerVladimer

Where did the 1941 military disaster come from?

And including from there that not all abomination was repressed in the 37th. Here is a bit of history http://nvo.ng.ru/history/2011-06-10/1_2ww.html

27 December 1940, the new People's Commissar of Defense Tymoshenko issued Order No. 0367 with reference to Voroshilovsky’s Order No. 0145 from 09.09.39 about obligatory masking of the entire air force airfield network in the 500-km lane from the border with the end of July 1 1941. Neither the Air Force Directorate nor the district have executed this order. The direct fault lies in that - Inspector General of the Air Force, Assistant Chief of the General Staff of the Red Army for Aviation Smushkevich and Head of the Main Directorate of the Air Force, Deputy Commissar of Defense Rychagov. Both were shot after the start of the war.

Another NCB order was issued on 19 June 1941 of the year.

No. 0042. In it, Tymoshenko and the Chief of the General Staff Zhukov stated that “nothing has been done to disguise airfields and major military facilities”, that airplanes in the “complete absence of their disguise” are crowded at aerodromes, etc.

Many land generals in criminal negligence with the affairs of service left the air generals not far. From the same order No. 0042 from 19.06.41: “Artillery and mechanized units show similar nonchalance to disguise: the crowded and linear arrangement of their parks represents not only excellent objects of observation, but also targets that are advantageous for defeating from the air. Tanks, armored vehicles, commander and other special vehicles of mechanized and other troops are painted with colors that give a bright glow, and are well observed not only from the air, but also from the ground. Nothing has been done to disguise warehouses and other important military installations ... "

I will not say that this is the main reason, but the fact is on the face.

Quote: DimerVladimer

Moreover - people were beaten in such a way that the person preferred to slander himself and others - as soon as the bullying would end.

Actually, they beat me now. Even in Western police action movies (which are just the tip of the iceberg), cops often apply "third degree of inquiry" to criminals. And the audience (overwhelmingly) for some reason is on the side of the cops, and not the criminals, who are being muzzled in the tail and in the mane.

[Mavrikiy]

Quote: DimerVladimer

Quote: sdv68

(and in the sacrifices your mother, wife, sister, young daughter ...) take him to court, and the court releases him, tk. "I did not find corpus delicti", "a mistake in carrying out the arrest procedure", "you yourself crippled him, and he brought you to court.

But they were silent on the drum, and Stalin destroyed the color of the nation, the color of the army.
Where did the 1941 military disaster come from?

About the color of the nation and the army for more kindly please, curious.
I know about the military catastrophe of 1941. Stalin did not finish the commanders. Seriously. These bastards didn’t finish the order about the battlefield for 2 days, seized the ammunition and put the tanks in for professional repair.

[Mavrikiy]

Quote: DimerVladimer

Quote: sdv68

(and in the sacrifices your mother, wife, sister, young daughter ...) take him to court, and the court releases him, tk. "I did not find corpus delicti", "a mistake in carrying out the arrest procedure", "you yourself crippled him, and he brought you to court.

But they were silent on the drum, and Stalin destroyed the color of the nation, the color of the army.
Where did the 1941 military disaster come from?

About the color of the nation and the army for more kindly please, curious.
I know about the military catastrophe of 1941. Stalin did not finish the commanders. Seriously. These bastards didn’t finish the order about the battlefield for 2 days, seized the ammunition and put the tanks in for professional repair.

[sdv68]

A good film, representing one of the points of view on the reasons for the 37th year.

[nivander]

"... Stalin tortured thirty to forty million of his best citizens" - from the speeches of V.I. Novodvorskaya in the USA in the mid-2000s

[Mavrikiy]

Quote: nivasander

"... Stalin tortured thirty to forty million of his best citizens" - from the speeches of V.I. Novodvorskaya in the USA in the mid-2000s

Novodvorskaya’s opinion is clear. Do you agree with him? Where does this lead, as the ultimate truth?

[Reptiloid]

In general, I decided about Novodvorskaya --- this is ridicule and put a comment on + because it was nasty and mean, gathered all sorts of scoundrels around me. Can you say nothing about the dead? No! The Jews themselves in their video showed how she sits at a table and eats bricks, i.e. laughed at her. If I was mistaken with the sign --- correct.

[kot28.ru]

The attitude to the events of those times will always be different! I wonder if now we carry out the nationalization of the means of production, factories, etc. (acquired by "backbreaking labor"), which in general will suit the majority of the population, to transplant all the Chubais-Sechin oligarchs, in a few decades Will their grandchildren cry out about repression and injustice? Yes! They live in their only fair world already! I have given famous names, but if you take EVERY official by the throat, there are a bunch of articles! History tends to repeat itself! Unfortunately, VVP is not an IVS, it is not maybe, for some reason, who will offend friends! And what will happen next, God alone knows, because the people do not care about the elections! If anything, I myself am the grandson of the dispossessed

[sdv68]

Very not a bad film by Alexander Zinoviev, who in his youth was an anti-Stalinist, and even prepared an assassination attempt on Stalin. And then he became a dissident.

[iury.vorgul]

Here is an excellent historian Shpakovsky while writing about knights and castles. As soon as he begins to write about the pre-war and war years, liberoid clichés come up. I wanted to read his book "If Hitler took Moscow" in the genre of alternative history. I took a look and came across:

Mehlis stretched out before Stalin at attention. Profuse drops of sweat appeared on his face.
- That's right, Comrade Stalin!
“Get out,” Stalin threw him, wanting to get rid of this man, whom he remembered lying on his feet after the failure of the attack on besieged Sevastopol. Nevertheless, he took the newspaper Pravda handed over to him from the indicated number and, putting on his glasses, carefully looked at the heading of the article, which was underlined in red pencil.

This must be written about the Mehlis, who, for all his shortcomings, was a man of unbending courage and personal courage. During the First World War, Mehlis was an artilleryman and rose to the rank of firework, (and Jews were not assigned officer ranks). He would have Zhukov (Yuri) read about the Mehlis, given the fact that he can not stand the Jews.

[Nicholas C.]

Quote: iury.vorgul

During the First World War, Mehlis was an artilleryman and rose to the rank of firework, (and Jews were not assigned officer ranks).

Do not invent.
Read, for example, “Notes of a Jewish general” by General General Staff MV Grulev, a Jew who was even a candidate for military minister of the Russian Empire.
Of the Jewish cantonists were, for example:
Nikolay Iudovich Ivanov - commander of the front in the 1st World War;
Mikhail Vasilievich Alekseev is a member of the St. Petersburg "Guchkov-Gurkov military box" and the chief of the General Staff.
Both were among those who demanded that the Emperor renounce (commanders of the fronts and the General Staff).

[iury.vorgul]

Dear Nikolay. I'm not making up anything. I can not say anything about the nationality of the gentlemen of the RIA generals Grulev, Ivanov and Alekseev, it is quite possible that they were Jews by nationality and came from Jewish cantonists. But by religion they were definitely not Jews, but Orthodox. The passports of the Russian Empire indicated not the nationality, but the religion, and it was not Jews, as a nation, but Jews that were discriminated against. To be able to avoid discrimination (including becoming an officer of the RIA), it was enough for a Jew to be baptized into Orthodoxy, that is, to become a "cross". By the way, in 1910, it was forbidden to produce in officer ranks and Jews - "crossings", and in 1912 - and their children. The First World War began in 1914, so your mention of the aforementioned gentlemen generals is at least incorrect.

[sdv68]

Here, by the way, is a video about Stalin's triples

[Reptiloid]

And it is very interesting to note that the articles alternate: a few chivalrous and we all seem to return to childhood and are there. Then something benevolent, and only then provocative. Although I need to look better at the list of publications, because I often skip his articles from other headings. It seems possible that the reader, following his beloved author, will take his side in an article about Stalin. There is a possibility of discussion, but what if it were not for such an opportunity? For example in a tutorial? And THEN back in childhood to the knights, where it is comfortable. The processes inside the human psyche are unknown to me, but it is possible that the reader will accept his arguments about Stalin precisely because they are "among" the knights and he does not hear the protests of the discussions. This thought even before did not think of the end.

[Alexander Greene]

The article is another libel on the Soviet regime. The class struggle in the USSR did not stop for a moment. The question was an edge: Who is who? As soon as the Soviet Government ceased to defend itself, there was a restoration of capitalism and the destruction of the USSR, and now we have what we have ...

[DimerVladimer]

Quote: Alexander Green

The article is another libel on the Soviet regime. The class struggle in the USSR did not stop for a moment. The question was an edge: Who is who? As soon as the Soviet Government ceased to defend itself, there was a restoration of capitalism and the destruction of the USSR, and now we have what we have ...

Doesn't it tell you that after coming to power, they began to "clean up the population"? To take away the land - which PROMISED TO GIVE - was one of the main slogans of the revolution.

My ancestors were all middle peasants - everyone was robbed of the earth!
All at once became nothing.

[sdv68]

Quote: DimerVladimer

To select the land - which TO PROMISE PROMISED - was one of the main slogans of the revolution.

Read, first, the "Decree on the Land", so as not to sit in a puddle.

Quote: DimerVladimer

My ancestors were all middle peasants - everyone was robbed of the earth!
All at once became nothing.

Mine too. My grandmother was one of the first to join the collective farm. And my great-grandfather never joined. He remained an individual farmer with his own apiary. And no one dispossessed him, did not exile, and did not shoot him. Among fellow villagers he was known as the "honey king", until in October 41 the German burned down the village.

[Mavrikiy]

Quote: DimerVladimer

Quote: Alexander Green

The article is another libel on the Soviet regime. The class struggle in the USSR did not stop for a moment. The question was an edge: Who is who? As soon as the Soviet Government ceased to defend itself, there was a restoration of capitalism and the destruction of the USSR, and now we have what we have ...

Doesn't it tell you that after coming to power, they began to "clean up the population"? To take away the land - which PROMISED TO GIVE - was one of the main slogans of the revolution.

My ancestors were all middle peasants - everyone was robbed of the earth!
All at once became nothing.

1. You're lying. There was a collective farm, so they could become collective farmers. Do not want to out of principle? Here is god, here is the threshold.
2. Ay, ah, ah. They promised and did not give (land, factories, banks), as it is not good. And also revolutionaries! You're lying again. Since there were middle peasants, it means they received land. And then collectivization ...
3. So maybe you will start to think that fools need a revolution to do. Your ancestors felt in their own skin. Now take care of yours.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: from Dimer-Vladimir "Does nothing tell you that after coming to power, they began to "clean up the population"? To take away the land - which PROMISED TO GIVE - was one of the main slogans of the revolution.

My ancestors were all middle peasants - everyone was robbed of the earth!
All became nothing overnight. "

Say thanks to collectivization that it saved you from poverty and hunger. How many children were in your family? Sooner or later, all the children wanted to separate, and if you divided your father’s land into everyone, then you simply would not have fed on your scrap. And who would you be? Sole proprietor - a slave of his allotment.

[Reptiloid]

Now everyone knows that the USSR was destroyed by traitors from the Communist Party. Did it start with Khrushchev? The sprouts of capitalism began to sprout gradually. they say that those leaders who were at the top liked to watch capitalist films, all kinds of songs criticizing socialism, they wanted to buy imported things, but this was not available to the people. All sorts of humoresques went, the thought in the collective consciousness --- "we would be so rotten", and now --- DONE --- capitalism has come! I think that now we have "shoots of socialism". Songs written during socialism --- they sing, films made under socialism --- are loved. There is respect for socialism among the people. Therefore, I think --- socialism WILL RETURN !!! Although it is possible that not tomorrow, but later.

[Snoop]

The problem was also in the low qualifications of both the NKVD employees and the judges. All the same, then there were not so many people with a good legal education. Well, they used to act like the saying about God and the fool. For example, how the "law of five ears" was applied below, which was aimed against large thefts in transport and public property. Just curious sentences were passed:
“Three peasants, of whom two, according to the indictment, were kulaks, and according to the certificates they provided were not kulaks, but middle peasants — took a collective farm boat for a whole day and went fishing. And for this unauthorized use of a collective farm boat, the decree was applied on August 7, Or another case, when a whole family was convicted by decree on August 7 for eating fish from a river flowing by the collective farm. Or the third case when a guy was convicted by decree on August 7 for that at night, as they say in the verdict, he dabbled in the barn with the girls and caused anxiety to the collective farm pig. The wise judge knew, of course, that the collective farm pig is part of the collective farm property, and the collective farm property is sacred and inviolable. Therefore, this wise man reasoned, it is necessary to apply decree on August 7 and condemn 'for disturbance' to 10 years in prison "...
"We have sentences with very serious social protection measures for someone hitting a collective farm piglet with a stone (again a piglet), causing him some bodily harm: the decree on August 7 was applied as an encroachment on public property."
These facts were cited in his pamphlet by the famous Stalinist prosecutor Vyshinsky. However, he immediately makes an important addition:
“True, these sentences are constantly being canceled, the judges themselves are steadily being removed from their posts, but still this characterizes the level of political understanding, the political outlook of those people who can pass such sentences.” I would also add a low level of legal training. What is the subjective side and the definition of intent?)))