Military Review

Interrupted flight of Admiral Mozhaisky

170
Mozhaysky Alexander Fedorovich (1825-1890) - Rear Admiral, Researcher and Inventor. In 1881, he received the privilege on the "aeronautic projectile" - the first Russian patent for an aircraft. An attempt to lift the plane into the air was undertaken in the 1884 year and ended in failure.

Gorgeous sailor

Man he was of the rarest seriousness. Gorgeous sailor and commander. While still a lieutenant, in 1853-1854, in a voyage on the frigate "Diana" was in a shipwreck - the ship went to the bottom during the famous earthquake in Shimoda Bay near the island of Honshu. As the forefather of the Soviet maritime affair, A.N. Krylov, in the logbook, the name of the officer who was the last to leave the perishing Russian sailboat was named.

Interrupted flight of Admiral Mozhaisky


It was Alexander Mozhaisky.

Leaving the "Diana", he saved the ship's drawings. According to these drawings and under the leadership of Mozhaisky, a new ship was built, on which the bulk of the crew returned to their homeland. On the Japanese island and now there is a museum dedicated to this event, the central exhibit in it is a portrait of a Russian officer. In the Land of the Rising Sun, Modzai is still worshiped, which gave an impetus to the new Japanese shipbuilding ...

And Mozhaisky, being already the captain of the first rank in retirement, to the envy of the neighboring boys selflessly launched into his estate of huge kites. And even at one of them he could, according to his testimony, "take to the air twice and fly comfortably." The sailor dreamed of the ocean of air, and the newspapers of the time were ironic: “Attempts by specialists to invent an aircraft that could be moved in the air in any direction, completely independent of the wind,” resemble attempts of dreamers who worked on the quadrature of a circle, perpetual motion before the elixir of immortality. "

Mozhaisky was destined to get ahead of time - in this and his feat, and tragedy.

Mozhaysky Alexander Fedorovich (1825-1890) - Rear Admiral, Researcher and Inventor. In 1881, he received the privilege on the "aeronautic projectile" - the first Russian patent for an aircraft. An attempt to lift the plane into the air was undertaken in the 1884 year and ended in failure.
Gorgeous sailor

Man he was of the rarest seriousness. Gorgeous sailor and commander. While still a lieutenant, in 1853-1854, in a voyage on the frigate "Diana" was in a shipwreck - the ship went to the bottom during the famous earthquake in Shimoda Bay near the island of Honshu. As the forefather of the Soviet maritime affair, A.N. Krylov, in the logbook, the name of the officer who was the last to leave the perishing Russian sailboat was named.

Leaving the "Diana", he saved the ship's drawings. According to these drawings and under the leadership of Mozhaisky, a new ship was built, on which the bulk of the crew returned to their homeland. On the Japanese island and now there is a museum dedicated to this event, the central exhibit in it is a portrait of a Russian officer. In the Land of the Rising Sun, Modzai is still worshiped, which gave an impetus to the new Japanese shipbuilding ...

And Mozhaisky, being already the captain of the first rank in retirement, to the envy of the neighboring boys selflessly launched into his estate of huge kites. And even at one of them he could, according to his testimony, "take to the air twice and fly comfortably." The sailor dreamed of the ocean of air, and the newspapers of the time were ironic: “Attempts by specialists to invent an aircraft that could be moved in the air in any direction, completely independent of the wind,” resemble attempts of dreamers who worked on the quadrature of a circle, perpetual motion before the elixir of immortality. "

Mozhaisky was destined to get ahead of time - in this and his feat, and tragedy.

Snake charmer

Flying a kite armed Mozhaiskogo great idea. And the fundamental conclusion: "To be able to hover in the air, there is some relationship between the weight, speed and size of the area or plane, and, undoubtedly, the greater the speed, the greater the weight can bear the same area." But how to maintain the speed of the "plane" in the air? Waving wings - and only. It was the birds that for a long time did not give the man the will for a decisive own flight. “In order not to fall, the bird must necessarily be in forward motion and at a certain speed. Probably, this rule is mandatory for all aircraft heavier than air,” thought Mozhaisky.

But the word "probably" is significant here.

The man is already coming to the solution of fixed-wing flight. It is only necessary to provide stubborn force, which will push the "plane" forward. The hesitant idea of ​​the motor still dawned ...

Mozhaisky came to his insights when an unheard-of technical revolution took place in the courtyard. He, with the rank of lieutenant commander, commanded the first steam vessel in Russia, the screw rider "Horseman". He was recklessly in love with cumbersome mechanisms, not realizing that it was the steam engine that would interfere with him. Soon it will displace the internal combustion engine.

But Alexander Mozhaysky will die already.

Opponent of Mendeleev

His plane was revealed to the astonished world at the end of 1876. Successful flights of the model (or models) took place, which inspired great confidence in the inventor. As the St. Petersburg Gazette wrote, he was "convinced that in a short time he would give the public the opportunity to fly in the air, at a lower risk than when riding on railways and in stage-displays."

But his stubbornness did not understand even the brilliant Dmitry Mendeleev.

At the beginning of 1877, Alexander Mozhaisky decided to "subject his invention to scientific criticism by proposing to the military ministry to use his project for military purposes in the upcoming war with Turkey." 20 January 1877 of the year by order of the Minister of War, Count Milyutin, a special commission was formed to review the Mozhaisky project, which included the largest representatives of Russian science and technology. Opinion Mendeleev was decisive. The conclusion of the commission is deadly:

"Ballooning can and will be of two kinds: one in balloons, the other in aerodynamics (the word" plane "was not yet invented then. - EG). The first ones are lighter than air and float in it. The second ones are heavier than it and drown ..."

It is clear that Mozhaysky refused to finance the project. It is not the envy of scholars. They could not appreciate the rise of Mozhaisk. It was only the revenge of the passing time to those who dared to live in the future.

It seems that these words of Mozhaisk are written in blood:

"I wanted to be useful to my Fatherland and started developing my project, for which I left the place of my ministry, refused another, also beneficial in terms of content and career ... I first lived and spent some small cash, then I made debts, sold and mortgaged all that is valuable [in the text], even watches and wedding rings, but enduring need and deprivation and not receiving what the government gives to each employee, that is, decent content to which I had the right for my thirty-five useful service according to your rank and because I worked not for my personal interest, but for the benefit of the state, and I acted not by my own discretion, but by the direction of a commission appointed by the government. And only driven to the extreme, to poverty, without having a decent apparel officer, I asked the government is not a reward, but a daily piece of bread, which I did not have and which I was not given, but at the same time, with selflessness and self-sacrifice proved by me, without any reason to distrust my words, they were deaf to my request and tied the question of a piece of bread for me with the opinion and assessment of my work to the commission, whose actions I had the honor to explain at this. "

The honor of Alexander Mozhaisky could have been saved by the flight of his brainchild.

And only the flight!

Ingenious designer

He goes to America with his own money, then to Europe to order a motor of his own design. The engine, of course, steam, but improved to the extreme. It should be free from the main disadvantage - overweight. Mozhaisky comes up with something unprecedented: all the details are made according to the principle of bird bones - hollow inside.

The enthusiastic response of the scientific secretary of the VII department of the Russian Technical Society A.V. Ewalda: “Mr. Mozhaisky managed to invent a car that has not yet been, and, indeed, his car, along with the boiler, weighs 14,5 F. on a steam horse. Not a single machine yet had such ease, and this is not a project, but such a machine exists ... "

Yes, Mozhaisky alone managed to do what the most advanced companies in the world, engaged in the design and manufacture of steam engines, could not do. In his calculations, he relied on the experience of a naval officer: "Taking into consideration the force required to rotate ship propellers in water, and the relative density of water and air, I find that the machines in 30 horsepower will give me the desired speed of the screws and apparatus."

Sailor was wrong in the calculations. But even without this, the steam engine led the idea to a standstill. Mozhaysky did not know and could not know this.

In the first case, it was enough for him to just get off the ground.

Great loser

In the summer of 1882, the aircraft, called the Firebird, was ready for testing. What did he look like? We can only guess about this now. Perhaps the only evidence left by Professor V.I. Kovalevsky at the opening of the First International Aeronautical Exhibition in 1911, a year after the death of Mozhaisky: "... The device was made so well that if you put it here in the Mikhailovsky Manege, next to Bleriot, the latter could say:" Hats ! ""

About the most historic flight, which took place in the Red Village tentatively in the autumn of 1884, several scant reports remained.

"The test device failed, and the mechanic driving the machine suffered injury."
(From the article by E. Fedorov "Flying devices of the heaviest air" in the "Notes of the Russian Technical Society").

"In 1884-85, the [Mozhaysky] airplane was built on a military field in Krasnoye Selo. During takeoff, the airplane tilted on its side and broke its supporting surfaces."
(From the magazine "Aeronaut" for 1909 year.)

"After the first experience of raising the device, the wooden dismountable cart broke down on the fence and the parachute was damaged."
(From the newspaper "Far East" for 16 June 1909 of the year.)

And, finally, a concise publication in the volume of the Military Encyclopedia, published by I.D. Sytin in 1916:

The first flight of an airplane on a military field in Krasnoye Selo gave unimportant results: the device separated from the ground, but, being unstable, tilted to its side and broke its wing. Further experiences were not, for lack of funds. The Mozhaisk apparatus is interesting as the first practical attempt to build a large airplane. "
And it's all.

Mozhaisky’s plane left no trace. After the military department refused to buy it as historical a curiosity, heirs have lost interest in him. The plane rotted for a long time in the open air on a field in Krasnoye Selo. Then it was disassembled and transported to Kotelnikovo, the Mozhaisky estate near Vologda, where the Firebird burned down in 1895. After Mozhaisky’s death, no one bothered to save either his archive or the models on which the inventor experimented. The last time one of the models was seen in the former estate of Mozhaisky was a certain Captenarmus Rubtsov: the Red Army was amused by it, "threw it into the air." On this, traces of the wonderful deeds of the heavenly pioneer are lost ...

Mozhaisky did not receive new engines. He had been waiting for them for another six years, sending desperate requests and reports to the military department. He stopped responding. The head of the commission, General Pauker, gave a tacit instruction: "to stop all kinds of intercourse with Mr. Mozhaisk in order to avoid scandals."

Admiral Alexander Mozhaisky was known as a squabbler. It was unbearable. He died at the age of sixty-five years in complete poverty and oblivion.

PERSONNEL

Why I decided to write about Mozhaisk

About Mozhaisk suddenly remembered in the fifties of the last century. A failed flight over Red Selo suddenly became, as in a fairy tale, triumphant. And the glorification of the life and cause of Mozhaisk turned out to be so immoderate, unintelligent and deceitful that it only hurt his memory.

A living person with all his sufferings and heartache, with a high, like the sky, creative passion, did not remain under these strata.

Yes, the first plane to actually fly up into the sky had an internal combustion engine of the original design of the American brothers Wilbur and Orville Wright. And our compatriot lived in the dawn rays of the century of reciprocating gasoline engines and did not manage to appreciate all its advantages. He stubbornly built a plane of his own design and also stubbornly connected it to a steam engine. But his uncertain steps were the first steps of the world aviationand they gave the first experience. With experience came confidence.

But the Motherland did not forgive him for defeat.

Not a penny after the first failure, he has not received. For a long time it was not even known where he was buried ...

It’s not for me, of course, to give a final assessment of the Mozhaisk, a great loser who was ahead of his time. I simply agree with the irrefutable conclusion of experts: his plane was the first in the world, built in full size and for the first time, even for a fraction of a moment, separated from the earth with a man on board.

It is a pity that in the stream of crafty word-making we lost one of the most dramatic plots in the entire history of the creative and spiritual development of mankind ...
Author:
Originator:
https://rg.ru/2016/07/11/rodina-mogayskij.html
170 comments
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  1. Kostya Andreev
    Kostya Andreev 17 July 2016 01: 02
    +17
    When you print an article, remove the repetition. And then I begin to doubt my memory and attentiveness.
    1. Tusv
      Tusv 17 July 2016 12: 39
      +2
      Quote: Kostya Andrei
      When you print an article, remove the repetition. And then I begin to doubt my memory and mindfulness

      Read our Great compatriot Nikolai Berdyaev with you- Hair will stand on end from repetitions.
      But an article about another Greatest Man
    2. Pavel1
      Pavel1 18 July 2016 14: 56
      +2
      Mozhaisky’s plane made a flight, it could have gained speed from a hill down, but there was a FLIGHT FACT, so the privilege was for the Russians to fly, but the fact that local Russophobes like a bayonet or a bifutter, or the author of the article click the opposite, you can’t pay attention...
      1. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 18 July 2016 18: 08
        0
        If we look at the "possibly" sagging, now on Kuznetsovo they do not take off from a hillock.
        He did everything ...
  2. Simpsonian
    Simpsonian 17 July 2016 02: 53
    +8
    Mozhaisky’s plane took to the sky much earlier than the Wright brothers’s plane, their first flight was also more likely a jump, but went into the offset, it didn’t differ by the glider’s scheme
    then they did not attach much importance to airplanes because airships were more promising in all respects
    airplanes were more likely exotic and dangerous stunts: the engine stalled - that's it, you have to land, and if not the field below?
    there were airships with steam engines, but the relief was not so critical there, with a steam engine, at least one other designer in America built and argued over the priority with the Wright brothers.
    why the military department so easily agreed to Sikorsky's "Ilya Muromets" - all 4 engines can rarely stall at once, and they could be repaired right in flight, as well as on an airship which, even if they all stall at once, it is absolutely not dangerous.
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 17 July 2016 03: 35
      +2
      and with the stalled engine then the brace airplanes planned simply disgusting ... you can see how the barely surviving German ass sat down Udet at a demonstration performance after the PMV in 1919
      there was some short American movie about this war (one of the first films) so about 20 pilots crashed on its set
    2. Bayonet
      Bayonet 17 July 2016 06: 11
      .
      Quote: Simpsonian
      Mozhaisky’s plane took off significantly earlier than the Wright brothers’s plane

      Nobody needs leavened patriotism - Mozhaisky's apparatus did not rise into the sky. The myth about Mozhaisky's "plane" arose in the course of a campaign to combat "rootless cosmopolitans who worship foreignism." And the article is good and true!
      1. V.ic
        V.ic 17 July 2016 07: 00
        +4
        Quote: Bayonet
        No one needs kvass patriotism - Mozhaisky’s apparatus did not rise into the sky.

        I read it for a long time, but I don’t remember the source of millet. That article contained the phrase: "could take off". And the" catastrophe "with breakdown and injury indirectly confirms that there was a separation from the guides. In aviation, the rule is: the wheels come off the surface and there is translational speed = FLIGHT.
        The article correctly states that a steam engine will not pull an airplane. Indeed, a steam engine also needs a stoker, a supply of the best coke and a banal shovel (a device with a similar function). Immediately I recall the anecdote about the number of stokers on the "Joseph Stalin" icebreaker (although according to "Vicky" the crew of this is 142).
        1. AK64
          AK64 17 July 2016 08: 17
          +10
          The article correctly states that a steam engine will not pull an airplane. Indeed, a steam engine also needs a stoker, a supply of the best coke and a banal shovel (a device with a similar function). Immediately I recall the anecdote about the number of stokers on the "Joseph Stalin" icebreaker (although according to "Vicky" the crew of this is 142).


          Really?
          But amers flew a steam plane. Aerospeed called.

          Just your brain is inertial. But who will prevent the use of, for example: liquid fuel with a steam engine, instead of "a stoker with a shovel and coke"?

          And steam does not have to be water.
        2. Bayonet
          Bayonet 17 July 2016 10: 24
          -4
          Quote: V.ic
          In aviation, the rule is: the wheels have come off the surface and there is translational speed = FLIGHT.

          Well then in aviation. Ukrainians, jumpers also take off from the ground at a translational speed, so that they fly? wassat
          1. V.ic
            V.ic 17 July 2016 10: 36
            +4
            Quote: Bayonet
            Ukrainians, jumpers also take off from the ground at a translational speed, so that they fly?

            They fly, they still fly! But actually there is a saying: "Penguin is a proud bird! Until you kick, it won’t fly... ".
            This suggests the conclusion about the identity of the two individuals mentioned.
          2. Bayonet
            Bayonet 17 July 2016 12: 48
            -6
            ABOUT! Send cons - see woke up! wassat
          3. Svidetel 45
            Svidetel 45 17 July 2016 19: 56
            +1
            And these "jumpers" are also mechanical products made of metal and wood and have ears instead of legs?
      2. doxtop
        doxtop 17 July 2016 15: 07
        +11
        Dear Bayonet!
        No one suffers from fervent patriotism. But we have no right to hush up the aspirations of the Russian genius - Alexander Fedorovich!
        Colleagues! Understand ... there was or was not a flight of an airplane built by Mozhaisky - it doesn’t matter anymore! What is important in history is that Alexander Fedorovich was the first to calculate and, with his own money, build an apparatus for conquering air heavier than this air itself. That is his merit! This is his historical memory!
        1. Bayonet
          Bayonet 17 July 2016 18: 04
          -7
          Quote: doxtop
          whether or not a plane built by Mozhaisky was or wasn’t - it’s not important anymore!

          Well, then there is no need to write - "Mozhaisky's plane RISE INTO THE SKY." Write as is! By falsifying facts (and this is leavened patriotism), you belittle Mozhaisky's role in the history of Russian aviation.
          1. Simpsonian
            Simpsonian 17 July 2016 19: 35
            +2
            How high does the sky start? In the USSR, they usually wrote simply "flew" or "the first among the devices heavier than air to take off from the ground."
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. Bayonet
              Bayonet 19 July 2016 07: 12
              +1
              Quote: Simpsonian
              The sky begins at what height?

              Five centimeters from the cellar floor! Arranges? I don’t understand what you are trying to achieve - a Simpsonov lover? Mozhaisky's "plane" did not fly! And you can jump ("fly into the sky" according to your opinion) on such a tarantay! fellow
              1. Simpsonian
                Simpsonian 19 July 2016 07: 37
                +1
                So that you bring something other than your unfounded allegations, and stupid pictures.
                Or was it that:

                The Wright brothers owned a bicycle factory in Dayton, Ohio. They turned one of the workshops of the factory into an aviation workshop. The Wright brothers came up with a simple test device for testing the wing profile.
                 Since their business was related to bicycles, they placed a test device, a bicycle wheel, on the front of the bicycle. On a wheel placed and fixed horizontally, they attached two wings - one with a flat profile, which served as a control model, and the second, at a diametrically opposite point, a test wing with a modified profile. To create a constant flow of air, one of the brothers got on a bicycle and rode it at a constant speed. In the process of movement, a comparison was made between the control wing model and the model with a modified profile. Simple, very time consuming process. Over time, the Wright brothers were able to predict the behavior and lift of over 200 different wing profiles at any angle of attack.


                Well, there was another picture

                Quote: Bayonet
                such

                no not so lol
        2. Svidetel 45
          Svidetel 45 17 July 2016 19: 58
          +1
          Guilty, instead of plus, minus slapped.
        3. zennon
          zennon 18 July 2016 00: 07
          0
          Quote: doxtop
          No one suffers from fervent patriotism. But we have no right to hush up the aspirations of the Russian genius - Alexander Fedorovich!

          You are right in his pursuit, scientific thought. The trouble is that his idea was ahead of time. You see, even the brilliant William Thomson (we know him as Lord Kelvin), who made exceptionally much in science and technology, believed that apparatuses were not heavier than air to fly can. He spoke of this in 1895! But he was a genius. His legacy is enormous!
        4. Bayonet
          Bayonet 18 July 2016 05: 09
          0
          Quote: doxtop
          What is important in history is that Alexander Fedorovich was the first to calculate and, with his own money, build an apparatus for conquering air heavier than this air itself.
          It is significant that the Russian scientist M.V. Lomonosov was the first to develop and build a model that was heavier than air and worked on the principle of a helicopter equipped with coaxial screws.
          1. Bayonet
            Bayonet 18 July 2016 16: 21
            +1
            Quote: Bayonet
            MV Lomonosov was the first to develop and build a model that was heavier than air and worked on the principle of a helicopter,

            Who doesn’t believe?
            July 2, 1754 Mikhailo Lomonosov demonstrated a model of a helicopter
            In the minutes of the meetings of the conference of the Russian Academy of Sciences it is written: “The most venerable adviser Lomonosov showed the machine he invented, which he calls air-running (aerodrome) and which the device should be such that the force of the wings, moved by a spring, similar to what usually happens in watches moving horizontally in in opposite directions, the machine presses on the air and rises towards the upper region of the air so that, having reached the upper air, it is possible to conduct research with meteorological instruments attached to this air-running (aerodrome) machine.
            1. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 18 July 2016 22: 06
              +1
              There was such Yuriev, his swashplate, and his single-rotor helicopter in 1912
              Sikorski could not know about him, but after arriving in the United States he fell so quickly to a general level that, like Bell, he did something unintelligible until the broken German helicopter in Algeria got to the Americans.
              His company, while she was still engaged in flying boats, the Americans bought up. His family now does not even have the right to his hat and coat, which are in the museum of this company, although he did not concede any rights, like himself.
        5. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 21 July 2016 00: 46
          0
          This comrade Marshal VO pisses delicately into everyone’s eyes, but while they are being rubbed he adds to the patriots and to kvass ... I got here a frame from a bicycle in one place and also in emergency situations laughing
    3. Cat
      Cat 17 July 2016 18: 21
      +2
      Very instructive article, thanks to the author.
  3. The comment was deleted.
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 17 July 2016 03: 30
      0
      actually no myth ...
      1. Bayonet
        Bayonet 17 July 2016 06: 20
        +1
        Quote: Simpsonian
        actually no myth ...

        The myth that the first airplane in the world that managed to take off was built by the Russian inventor Alexander Mozhaysky was born at a time when we were proving to the whole world that Russia is “the birthplace of elephants”. The beginning of the creation of this legend was laid by Shavrov's book “The History of Aircraft Structures in the USSR until 1938” that was published before the Great Patriotic War. Referring to an archival source, the author provided a description, a drawing of the structure and engines, as well as technical characteristics of the Mozhaisky aircraft.
        Already after the war, in 1950, Shavrov was supported by young historians Shipilov and Cheremnykh, the magazine "Technique - Youth" reported on their discovery. Scientists found that the world's first plane took off in Russia on July 20, 1882 in Krasnoye Selo near St. Petersburg.
        The device, built by Mozhaisky, was piloted by his friend Ivan Golubev. He managed to take off, make a kilometer circle and land safely. Several long flights were made, but the reactionary royal bureaucrats did not give a stroke to the ingenious invention.
        However, in reality, everything was somewhat different. Alexander Fedorovich Mozhaysky, a Russian researcher and inventor, was an unusually talented person. In 1876, at the age of 54, he created a small model of an airplane with propeller engines on clockwork clock springs. The clockwork model flew. Submitting his project to the Aeronautical Commission under the Ministry of War, Mozhaisky received 3 rubles for further research. But the money was sorely lacking, and the inventor asked for new funds. The ministry officials reluctantly allocated the inventor a allowance of 475 rubles a year.
        In 1878, Alexander Fedorovich submitted a memorandum to the Aeronautical Commission with a detailed technical project, not of a model, but of a controlled apparatus capable of raising a person into the air. Everything would be fine if it were not for the estimate drawn up by Mozhaisky, which terrified the military accountants - 18 rubles. And then they decided to refuse the services of the inventor.
        Further research had to be paid from my own pocket. Mozhaysky was not a poor man, but the creation of an airplane ruined him. Despite everything, the inventor achieved his goal. In 1880, he received a patent for the invention of an airplane. And by the summer of 1885, a wooden plane was already ready with wings covered in silk, which weighed 800 kilograms.
        The tests took place on July 12 and 18 in the Red Village near St. Petersburg. Unfortunately, after accelerating and slightly tearing the wheels off the ground, the plane both times fell to one side (by the way, the name of the pilot remained unknown, and Ivan Golubev, according to experts, was simply invented). Mozhaisky, realizing that he was mistaken in the calculations, began to develop more advanced engines. Unfortunately, the death of the inventor in 1890 did not allow him to build an apparatus that could take off. It is possible that if Mozhaysky lived a few more years, he would be able to see his plane soaring in the air. But history does not tolerate the subjunctive mood, and the first plane, driven by American Orville Wright, flew up to the sky on December 17, 1903.
        1. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 17 July 2016 17: 56
          +3
          According to various sources, Mozhaisky’s plane flew at a height of from half a meter to two, it fell over on its side due to a cracked brace
          differences in height can be because he took off from the flyover like Maxim’s plane,
          It is strange that the rootless cosmopolitans who were in power before 1938 did not write anything about him.

          mammoths are elephants because yes

          crowdfunding had to be done better by Mozhaisky, then maybe he received the funds as Zepellin in Germany, on which the state had obeisance with the device until 1910 - this count went bankrupt four times after the accidents of his airships, the Germans carried him their "kopekens" to get him out of debt and continuation of work
          only the trouble is - the airship looks great impressively, but the whatnots do not, so maybe it only worked and did not collect a lot of money.
          1. Simpsonian
            Simpsonian 17 July 2016 18: 02
            +1
            at least there were attempts to deal with it - the Snimords forbade it, because they say that the government is a disgrace ...
  4. Knowing
    Knowing 17 July 2016 04: 56
    +7
    Admiral Alexander Mozhaysky is not forgotten: The Federal State Treasury Military Educational Institution of Higher Professional Education "A.F. Mozhaisky Military Space Academy" of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation is a higher military educational institution located in St. Petersburg. Named after A.F. Mozhaysky.
    Prepares officers for the Space Forces of the Russian Aerospace Forces.
    - at one time there was an opportunity to act, there was no desire ... fool
  5. parusnik
    parusnik 17 July 2016 07: 06
    +3
    There were no further experiments, for lack of funds.... Oh, sorry .. I had a brand .. It depicts Mozhaisky’s plane in flight .. Clearly, the artist’s invention .. But I always regretted that there was no such flight depicted on the brand ... Thanks, author .. .
  6. guzik007
    guzik007 17 July 2016 07: 30
    0
    Yes, unfortunately "almost" is not recognized in the world.
  7. baudolino
    baudolino 17 July 2016 07: 36
    -1
    With the same serious look, it can be argued that Tsiolkovsky in Kaluga quietly tried to launch rockets into space. Nothing happened, but it could have happened).
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 17 July 2016 08: 13
      +3
      I didn’t try to space, but without it it’s not known when it would fly
  8. kugelblitz
    kugelblitz 17 July 2016 07: 39
    +2
    And for some reason I believe that the plane existed, and made a jump or a partial separation. Of course, the aerodynamic design may have had problems, which is why the plane was unstable.

    But OK, a steam plane is not possible? To begin with, let's recall the story that there was a Clement Ader Avion plane later. He also jumped and could not take off, but he was. And much later, the steam plane flew!

    1. V.ic
      V.ic 17 July 2016 08: 19
      -3
      Quote: kugelblitz
      And much later, the steam plane flew!

      Awesome! Only there, under the hood, two hefty blacks sat and twisted the propeller ... lol And the pepelats worked on the water. Negroes periodically yelled "water-s". Well, about the steam, well, of course you will sweat under the hood!
      1. Bayonet
        Bayonet 17 July 2016 10: 43
        +5
        Quote: V.ic
        Awesome! Only there, under the hood, two hefty blacks sat and twisted the propeller ..

        Airspeed 2000 is the first and only (made in one copy) steam plane that was able to carry out independent full-fledged flight.
        Since 1930, the Bessler brothers have been developing the project in secrecy and designed a passenger that could complete a full flight based on the glider of the Travel Air 2000 serial biplane. April 12, 1933 in Auckland, California, the device was presented to the public, the event was preliminarily accompanied by an active advertising campaign, so a large number of journalists were at the demonstration, photo and film reports of the flight were made. The plane under the control of William Bessler was able to make a demonstration flight without difficulty taking off the ground. According to journalists, the flight was so quiet in flight that from the ground you could hear the conversation of the pilot with the passenger.
        Despite an active advertising campaign, as well as the successful operation of the aircraft at the US Postal Service, there was no further success with the aircraft, as the industry preferred aircraft with internal combustion engines. You can see the weaknesses of the password outweighed the advantages.
        The aircraft was equipped with a two-cylinder V-shaped steam engine with a power of 150 hp. A tank with a capacity of about ten gallons allowed the Airspeed 2000 to fly 600 km. The steam engine weighed 80 kg (which was less than the mass of the gasoline engine for the prototype), but the water tank with a firebox weighed 220 kg.
        Passenger had numerous advantages over aircraft with ICE:
        1. The engine power did not depend on the flight altitude and the degree of rarefaction of the air, in contrast to engines on gasoline or diesel fuel. And if at low altitudes the steam engine was inferior to the Travel Air 2000 analogue, then at an altitude of more than 2000 meters it was significantly superior.
        2. Low fuel requirements, availability of water and fuel, in contrast to the relative high cost of fuel for aircraft engines.
        3. The simplicity of the design of the machine, and therefore greater maintainability and higher reliability.
        4. An additional feature of using a steam engine was the ability to perform reverse braking - after landing, the screw spun in the opposite direction and gently braked the plane.
        Nevertheless, lower engine efficiency, the need for ultralight materials to compensate for the weight of the boiler, and a smaller potential flight range did not allow the aircraft to replace the aircraft with ICE. And even the prospect of using them in the military industry (like silent scouts and bombers) did not attract the military. The password served in the U.S. Post Office until 1936, after which its fate is unknown.
        1. AK64
          AK64 17 July 2016 10: 57
          +2
          The steam engine weighed 80 kg (which was less than the mass of the gasoline engine for the prototype), but the water tank with a firebox weighed 220 kg.

          It is not clear why the boiler weighed so much.

          Nevertheless, lower engine efficiency, the need for ultralight materials to compensate for the weight of the boiler, and a smaller potential flight range did not allow the aircraft to replace the aircraft with ICE.

          It is not clear why the boiler weighed so much.
          As for water - well, a closed loop is needed. (Which of course adds the weight of the capacitor - but nonetheless quite possible.)

          And it’s not at all necessary to use water as a working fluid! Something lower in density, and with a lower heat of vaporization ... like methanol.

          That is:
          (1) liquid fuel
          (2) closed loop
          (3) more reasonable working fluid
    2. AK64
      AK64 17 July 2016 08: 23
      -1
      Mozhaysky had irregular (square) wings.
      And the angle of attack is 10 degrees.

      That is why his miracle-yudo could not fly.

      In Wright, in this sense, everything was already right. (Interestingly, who suggested?)
      1. kugelblitz
        kugelblitz 17 July 2016 08: 31
        +6
        Otto Lilienthal gliders were already flying by then, for example, he had developed and experienced tail biplane diagram. And the Wright brothers used his aerodynamic design.

        aviadejavu.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft20932.htm
        1. AK64
          AK64 17 July 2016 08: 44
          0
          By that time, Otto Lilienthal gliders were already flying, for example, he had developed and tested a tail biplane circuit. And the Wright brothers used his aerodynamic design.

          Nothing in common. That is, simply - nothing.
          1. kugelblitz
            kugelblitz 17 July 2016 08: 57
            +2
            Quote: AK64
            That is, simply - nothing.

            Yah! A lot of similarities, of course with improvements. wassat
            1. AK64
              AK64 17 July 2016 09: 43
              +1
              Yah! A lot of similarities, of course with improvements. wassat


              Look carefully at the pictures: nothing in common

              PS: Here, in fact, the answer: it turns out the guys approached the question really very seriously (and it seems that they poured a lot of money)

              After that wright built own wind tunnel and created a large number of sophisticated devices for measuring lift and tested about 200 wing projects. As a result, Wright corrected their early mistakes in calculating the aerodynamic performance of the wing,
      2. V.ic
        V.ic 17 July 2016 10: 39
        +3
        Quote: AK64
        (Interestingly, who suggested?)

        "The German is cunning: he invented a monkey" ... Russian proverb.
      3. dauria
        dauria 17 July 2016 11: 12
        +9
        Wright, in this sense, was already right


        Well, it started ... right-wrong.

        at the plane one wing. There are any number of forms in the plan, even a ring is. And everyone is flying. By the way, Wright has a duck with a pushing screw; Mozhaysky has a normal circuit.

        Is this about this article? 1885 and 1903. And before the flight of the brothers, Wright had already managed to crash in flight to the glider Lilienthal and Mozhaisky to die. One of his gliders gifted to Zhukovsky is in the museum.
        Just think about it, a Russian man dreamed of the sky and built the world's first airplane. Itself. 35 years before they were taken seriously.
    3. AK64
      AK64 17 July 2016 08: 31
      +1
      By the way, there was a dviglo on this mistress .... from a steam car (!!!)
      1. AK64
        AK64 17 July 2016 09: 55
        +1
        By the way, there was a dviglo on this mistress .... from a steam car (!!!)


        Wrong: on the first prototype they had a steam car. What is on video is already "specially designed".
        By the way they were proud of the way the boiler.
    4. doxtop
      doxtop 17 July 2016 15: 11
      +2
      By the way ... I remember a long time ago I was seriously interested in the question "could the flight of AF Mozhaisky's plane take place at all?" For a long time I shoveled the available sources, analyzed the mechanics and aerodynamics of the aircraft and those meager preserved information about it. And he came to the following conclusion: "A full independent flight by the plane of Alexander Fedorovich could not be performed"! The difference in characteristics is too great the mass of the apparatus - design features - the required power input. Even with all the openwork design of the Mozhaisky steam engine and its relatively small (for a steam engine) weight, the rated power was still not enough for a confident full-fledged approach and movement, albeit at a low altitude.
    5. doxtop
      doxtop 17 July 2016 15: 11
      +3
      But! I was still embarrassed by the documented memories of contemporaries and eyewitnesses to the test of the Mozhaisky plane, according to which it still turned out that (ATTENTION, the main thing) was FLIGHT! According to the testimony of one of the eyewitnesses (unfortunately I forgot what their name was) somewhere an arshin (about 71 cm) separated from the ground. This is where the main question for me arose: "How, if the required power for takeoff was not enough, the plane was still able to get off the ground" !? And after much thought, I came to the same conclusion, voiced below, that the whole point is in the "screen effect"!
      See for yourself:
      1) The aerodynamics of Mozhaisky’s airplane is far from perfect (Well, what about it !? The dawn of aeronautics. People still have very gloomy ideas about lift and wing theory). Wings of square shape to prove to you.
      2) Engine power of 30 hp with an airplane weight of more than 800 kg. - clearly not enough for an aircraft of this design.
      3) Imperfections made screws. And although they are designed correctly enough, the aerodynamics of the blades realize only part of the required power.
      - These are the three most serious reasons for the fact that the device can take off only by magic.
      And so ... oddly enough this magic happens !!! Again, according to the recollections of contemporaries - the weather on the day of the test was quite "fresh", and the word "fresh" here can be understood as windy!
      It seems to me that Alexander Fedorovich was not stupid not to take this into account when planning a flight, and therefore would have turned his plane towards the air flow. And then we get that same "miracle": - The tester (most likely Ivan Golubev) brings the engine to the maximum operating mode; - The plane is uncertain, but then acceleration starts faster and faster; - The speed is growing, but the power of the engine and the aerodynamics of the blowing of the bearing planes is not enough to lift the vehicle into the air; - And then the next breath of oncoming air creates the same "screen" effect under the bearing planes (compare the design of the Mozhaisky plane's wing with the designs of modern ekranoplanes ;-)) and the plane jumps to a height of 0,5 to 1 meter!
      But then the general design of the aircraft intervenes! The control reserve is not enough to fully hold the aircraft in the air, and it collapses onto (in my opinion, the left) wing. Due to a very imperfect design, the left half of the "landing gear" (let it be called a modern term) breaks and the plane hits the ground with its wing. This hard landing (incident) was recorded by many participants in the event.

      That's about such a picture, and in my opinion, the first attempt in the world to come off the ground on a device was heavier than air with an engine installed on it! Aleksandr Fedorovich Mozhaysky (as already mentioned) did not have enough funds for further development of the aircraft, and the prototypes of the first internal combustion engines simply did not yet allow enough to get the characteristics acceptable to steam engines.
      This is only why they entered history as the first aviators - the Wright brothers, and not our esteemed and talented compatriot Alexander Fedorovich Mozhaysky! He was born and fulfilled his dreams much earlier than world technological progress allowed. Alas!
      Respectfully to all!
      1. AK64
        AK64 17 July 2016 15: 38
        -1
        This is only why they entered history as the first aviators - the Wright brothers, and not our esteemed and talented compatriot Alexander Fedorovich Mozhaysky!


        I repeat once again especially for you: the Wright brothers were the first to seriously engage in aerodynamics research. They were not limited to one model, but
        (1) made the world's first wind tunnel, and
        (2) tested in it more than 200 glider models.
        This is not at all, but a serious R&D (or R&D)

        That's why they became the first, that their approach to the issue was fundamentally different.
      2. Bayonet
        Bayonet 18 July 2016 05: 15
        +1
        Quote: doxtop
        "How, if the required power for takeoff was not enough, the plane still managed to get off the ground" !?

        Roofs fly in a good wind! smile
        1. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 18 July 2016 05: 28
          0
          Was the flyover rotary, or how were you waiting for the V-1 during the launches? lol
  9. Fei_Wong
    Fei_Wong 17 July 2016 08: 43
    +5
    Quote: V.ic
    The article correctly states that a steam engine will not pull an airplane. Indeed, a steam engine also needs a stoker, a supply of the best coke and a banal shovel (a device with a similar function). Immediately I recall the anecdote about the number of stokers on the "Joseph Stalin" icebreaker (although according to "Vicky" the crew of this is 142).

    And let's estimate the theoretical possibility of creating an aircraft heavier than air precisely with a steam engine, but - made already according to our modern technologies and with modern materials. I think, now it is entirely real (just, alas, nobody is interested).
    1. kugelblitz
      kugelblitz 17 July 2016 08: 51
      +2
      Quote: Fei_Wong
      the theoretical possibility of creating an aircraft heavier than air with a steam engine

      Maybe why not? Let's say in due time it was believed that a person will not be able to take off with the help of muscular strength, but they fly! wassat

    2. V.ic
      V.ic 17 July 2016 10: 42
      -2
      Quote: Fei_Wong
      And let's estimate the theoretical possibility of creating an aircraft heavier than air precisely with a steam engine, but - made already according to our modern technologies and with modern materials. I think now it is completely real (just, alas, no one is interested).

      But where do you get so many stokers? request I'm kidding, sorry! lol
  10. Fei_Wong
    Fei_Wong 17 July 2016 09: 02
    0
    Quote: kugelblitz
    Let's say in due time it was believed that a person will not be able to take off with the help of muscular strength, but they fly!

    Heh yes. I would even add that since the days of Icarus and Daedalus. ^ _ ^
    But I meant exactly a combat aircraft with a steam engine. Those. not just an airplane for setting records (they generally cut everything that is possible and at times - even that which is impossible), but an assembly that carries some kind of, but useful combat load and weapons.
    1. kugelblitz
      kugelblitz 17 July 2016 09: 17
      +1
      Quote: Fei_Wong
      and an assembly that carries some kind of, but useful combat load and weapons.

      It is possible, Che and not, if the efficiency of the steam engine would be appropriate. As an option, use an atomic reactor and say drive it in the stratosphere as a repeater for years, or in the atmosphere of Mars as a research one.

      And so then the boilers since then have seriously grown, and steam engines feel better and reduce losses. Only sense in them I think only as in exotic with the usual type of fuel, unlike the same electrolytes for example.
  11. The comment was deleted.
  12. Dimon19661
    Dimon19661 17 July 2016 09: 40
    +3
    Quote: Simpsonian
    Mozhaisky’s plane took to the sky much earlier than the Wright brothers’s plane, their first flight was also more likely a jump, but went into the offset, it didn’t differ by the glider’s scheme
    then they did not attach much importance to airplanes because airships were more promising in all respects
    airplanes were more likely exotic and dangerous stunts: the engine stalled - that's it, you have to land, and if not the field below?
    there were airships with steam engines, but the relief was not so critical there, with a steam engine, at least one other designer in America built and argued over the priority with the Wright brothers.
    why the military department so easily agreed to Sikorsky's "Ilya Muromets" - all 4 engines can rarely stall at once, and they could be repaired right in flight, as well as on an airship which, even if they all stall at once, it is absolutely not dangerous.

    The Wright brothers' airplane made the first CONTROLLED flight in the world, which is why they were the first, but simply jumped before them.
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 17 July 2016 18: 09
      0
      What makes you think that the flight of the Mozhaisky plane was uncontrollable? A jump is not a steady flight, it is when "thrown on a bump". There are no large irregularities on the flyover from which he took off.
      The real working model of Mozhaisky's plane was "played" by the Red Army soldiers and the article says about it. If something is missing for the current controllability, then the claims to the reenactors.
  13. Mengad
    Mengad 17 July 2016 09: 41
    0
    I understand that it’s cool to be a patriot, but please do not forget that we need truth.
  14. Beefeater
    Beefeater 17 July 2016 09: 45
    +1
    Mozhaisky’s plane could not fly primarily because of an imperfect engine. That was then the technological level.
    But in general, that is not the point. It is important that such work was carried out in Russia. Despite the setbacks, Russian military scientific thought existed and developed. There were submarines, albeit simple ones, but they sailed, torpedoes and electric fuses on mines appeared.
    1. AK64
      AK64 17 July 2016 09: 59
      +3
      Mozhaisky’s plane could not fly primarily because of an imperfect engine.

      No.
      He could not fly in principle, due to a fundamentally wrong wing.
      The angle of attack is 10 degrees.


      That was then the technological level.

      Maxim, the one who is "man-and-machine gun", made a very punched engine for his plane.

      But in general, that is not the point. It is important that such work was carried out in Russia. Despite the setbacks, Russian military scientific thought existed and developed. There were submarines, albeit simple ones, but they sailed, torpedoes and electric fuses on mines appeared.


      And you look for comparison how exactly "such work was carried out" by serious people: The Wright brothers, having played a little with Lilienthal's glider, spat on this matter and ... built a wind tunnel.
      So surprising that they were the first? After all, a scientific approach, not "tyr-byr".

      And then take a roll of silk + steam engine from the boat - "well, the main thing is that the work was in progress"
      1. Bayonet
        Bayonet 17 July 2016 10: 19
        +3
        Quote: AK64
        He could not fly in principle, due to a fundamentally wrong wing.

        In 1979-81 TsAGI studied the characteristics of the aircraft and came to the conclusion that this aircraft could not fly even under favorable conditions (although there is a reservation about the screen effect, which seems to have allowed the aircraft to take off the ground).
        Yes, and, in fact, the results of the tests themselves clearly stated: he could not fly, although it was brought into action.
        1. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 17 July 2016 17: 43
          +2
          How did the model fly?
          1. Simpsonian
            Simpsonian 17 July 2016 17: 58
            +1
            minus from someone without motivation is understandable ...

            Above they wrote that a model with a drive from clock springs flew, and only then he began to build a full-size airplane with a steam engine
          2. Bayonet
            Bayonet 18 July 2016 05: 18
            +1
            It's all about size! If a fly were the size of a hippo, would it fly? laughing
            A model of a helicopter also flew at Lomonosov!
            1. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 18 July 2016 05: 30
              0
              models then in wind tunnels why TsAGI is testing?
      2. Nekarmadlen
        Nekarmadlen 17 July 2016 12: 38
        +2
        Have you heard anything about modern startups? An idea is proposed, a technology demonstrator is being built, then if everything is successful and investors are located, commercialization is underway ... Everything has been invented for a long time)))) .. The Wright brothers probably found investors for the wind tunnel and further development ... But Mozhaisky with my money only I could build kites)))))
        1. AK64
          AK64 17 July 2016 13: 00
          +2
          Have you heard anything about modern startups? The idea is proposed, to build a technology demonstrator, then if everything is successful and investors are found, it is being implemented in commercial production ... Everything has been invented for a long time)))) .. The Wright brothers probably found investors for the wind tunnel and further development ...


          What is the name of the investor Wright
          1. Nekarmadlen
            Nekarmadlen 17 July 2016 13: 50
            -1
            Well, it means that the Wright brothers turned out to be very sensible businessmen, if they could implement such a project without outside help .... or maybe then some kind of state support for promising projects was ....
      3. Beefeater
        Beefeater 17 July 2016 14: 41
        +1
        Yes, in Russia there were no large scientific teams, there were inventors of a loner. There were crazy geniuses. As for aviation, until the beginning of the 10s it was just an attraction, they all designed quickly without bothering with long studies and calculations.
        1. AK64
          AK64 17 July 2016 15: 10
          +2
          Yes, in Russia there were no large scientific teams, there were inventors of a loner.

          As an everywhere.
          However, in Germany, Britain and even the USA (Edison’s company, for example) there were already separate design bureaus


          As for aviation, until the beginning of the 10s it was just an attraction, they all designed quickly without bothering with long studies and calculations.

          However, Wright made the world's first wind tunnel. And they did a bunch of experiments on it. That's why their daddy flew.
          But the predecessors - no.
          1. Simpsonian
            Simpsonian 17 July 2016 18: 15
            +1
            Is the Academy of Sciences not a large scientific team?

            at the expense of the first is not a fact, and Mozhaisky worked out aerodynamics on a large-scale "spring" model
            1. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 17 July 2016 18: 17
              0
              Americans thought of this only on the X-36 wink
            2. AK64
              AK64 17 July 2016 18: 43
              +1
              Is the Academy of Sciences not a large scientific team?

              No.
              This is not a "scientific" or "collective": the academicians did not work for one common task.
              AN - "public interest organization", and no more.

              at the expense of primacy is not a fact

              Answer at least once for the little market, find the first wind tunnel.

              and Mozhaisky worked out aerodynamics on a large-scale "spring" model

              He did not "work out" anything.
              Model made - "oh, flew, flew!"
              Gu, let's do the upscale. Moreover, obviously, even the calculations of how this upscale came out were not made.

              Mozhaysky generally conducted an experiment with snakes. Once he made a big snake, brought the scourge to the chaise, hung himself under it, and ordered the coachman to be driven. Well, he drove. The snake, with Mozhaisky, flew up - and it collapsed. Alexander Fedorich broke his leg, it did not grow well together (age), and Alexander Fedorich limped for the rest of his life.
              But I didn’t draw any conclusions.

              In fact, "Mozhaisky's plane" is not a glider, it is snake with a motor. The problem, however, is that in order to make a kite fly on this principle, --- it is necessary
              lots of
              traction.
              Mozhaisky’s view of the wing and its lifting power is the plane, and the law of sine cosines. So evaluate the tax required for such a flight: you will provide it only with a jet engine.

              That is: Mozhaisky’s mistake is fundamental and not removable. The theory (which Mozhaisky did not have) must be changed.
              1. Simpsonian
                Simpsonian 17 July 2016 19: 51
                -3
                Spell out ... logic and culture with the knowledge and rushing. fool
                Otto Lilienthal hung with his gliders in front of the whole fan, so that because of it your Americans with their pipe are also in flight, they still insist that they were the first to invent a computer, which is why even Ms. Merkel was against it.
                1. AK64
                  AK64 17 July 2016 20: 14
                  +1
                  Spell out ... logic and culture with the knowledge and rushing.

                  Firstly, I would strongly advise you to contact strangers on "you".

                  Secondly, here it is:
                  fool

                  characterizes you, not me, but you, as a boor. With what I congratulate you.

                  Thirdly
                  Otto Lilienthal hung with his gliders in front of the whole fan, so because of it your Americans with their pipe are also in flight,

                  So you did not find the first pipe?
                  Well, symptomatic. But it’s simple: Google.
                  The world's first wind tunnels were built in 1871 by a member of the Council of the Royal Aviation Society of Great Britain, Francis Herbert Wenham and Russian military engineer V. A. Pashkevich [2] [3]. Wenham used his wind tunnel to study the load-bearing properties of the wing [4], while the Pashkevich’s pipe was designed to determine the aerodynamic characteristics of artillery shells [3].

                  Well, "in front of a large fan entirely" - this is sorry and di-o-tism. Even if we assume that Lilienthal did this, then this is i-di-o-tism.
                  But you will not understand why it is so.


                  they also insist that they were the first to invent the computer, which is why even Ms. Merkel was against it.

                  Confirm your bazaar, show exactly WHERE "they insist they invented a computer".

                  In general, Americans are a very talented people. Well, or was talented (and now "everyone has come in large numbers", so they spoil the statistics)
                  1. Simpsonian
                    Simpsonian 17 July 2016 21: 35
                    -2
                    Their
                    Quote: AK64
                    Answer at least once for the market
                    и
                    Quote: AK64
                    Confirm your bazaar,

                    advise as much as you want, you will not have enough emergency soon. The emoticon corresponded to knowledge of the affected subjects.
                    Well, the Indians - yes, and the rest ... So "talented" that even their "wooden architecture" cannot be looked at without tears. lol
                    1. AK64
                      AK64 18 July 2016 07: 56
                      +2
                      What kind of people? Where do these come from?
                      They don’t know anything, they don’t know anything, but screams from them ...

                      They clearly come to the Net with something to "fight" --- and this is instead of learning at least something.

                      Of course, I threw it in an emergency, in the order of "wet cleaning"
                    2. Simpsonian
                      Simpsonian 18 July 2016 08: 54
                      -1
                      Quote: AK64
                      What kind of people? Where do these come from?
                      They don’t know anything, they don’t know anything, but screams from them ...

                      They clearly come to the Net with something to "fight" --- and this is instead of learning at least something.

                      Of course, I threw it in an emergency, in the order of "wet cleaning"

                      not from spain, sit in your "soft room" and pick oranges.
                  2. Anglorussian
                    Anglorussian 17 July 2016 21: 59
                    -1
                    Americans are very talented people
                    And Zadornov on TV says that they are stupid. And who do you trust? wassat
                    1. Simpsonian
                      Simpsonian 17 July 2016 22: 01
                      0
                      Germans and English, they generally also consider lol
                      1. Anglorussian
                        Anglorussian 17 July 2016 22: 39
                        0
                        No, Zadornov is indisputable authority here ...
                      2. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 17 July 2016 22: 52
                        -1
                        Germans and British are exposed ... especially Germans - they didn’t even believe how the nation pulled the airships from them after the WWII, and then exploded German in Lakehurst, able to divide the critical mass into 2 request
                        probably didn’t take into account that it came in large numbers and did it for them.
                      3. Bayonet
                        Bayonet 18 July 2016 05: 25
                        0
                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        probably didn’t take into account that it came in large numbers and did it for them.

                        So after all there all "came in large numbers", with the exception of the Indians! smile
                      4. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 18 July 2016 05: 35
                        0
                        the fact is that the losers quickly descend to the local level (and this is not due to the Indians). lol therefore, they must constantly import fresh brains of professionals and a healthy gene pool there
                      5. AK64
                        AK64 18 July 2016 09: 13
                        +2
                        So after all there all "came in large numbers", with the exception of the Indians! smile


                        Not every one of Ponehavets is equally useful: first the heroes go, then the consumers, and then (when everything is built and life has become pleasant) and just parasites
                      6. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 18 July 2016 09: 24
                        +1
                        "Not every newcomer is equally useful: first the heroes go, then the consumers, and then (when everything is built and life has become pleasant) and just parasites"

                        and this is well understood by consumers and parasites from the US migration service, so they are only allowed out of their

                        first the degenerate nuts religious sectarian reformers went there and led the process
  15. Fei_Wong
    Fei_Wong 17 July 2016 11: 06
    +1
    Quote: V.ic
    Quote: Fei_Wong
    And let's estimate the theoretical possibility of creating an aircraft heavier than air precisely with a steam engine, but - made already according to our modern technologies and with modern materials. I think now it is completely real (just, alas, no one is interested).

    But where do you get so many stokers? request I'm kidding, sorry! lol

    Why stokers? If even on AZ tanks half a century(!) Previously they were able to realize, then automatic fuel supply for a steam engine - even more so.
    Think narrowly. I said - with the current level of technology. In addition, steam engines are not the only coal for power. The same fuel oil, say, not to mention the lighter liquid types of hydrocarbon fuels.
  16. Nekarmadlen
    Nekarmadlen 17 July 2016 12: 26
    0
    But what about the shipwreck in Japan, who will say something? Unless, of course, all this is reliable (((On the one hand, Mozhaisky showed great heroism and technical literacy, saved the ship’s drawings and built a new ship in Japan, on the other hand, the Japanese got quite secret technologies at that time, using which they could switch to a brand new for yourself the level in shipbuilding ....
    1. AK64
      AK64 17 July 2016 12: 59
      +1
      But what about the shipwreck in Japan, who will say something? Unless, of course, all this is reliable (((On the one hand, Mozhaisky showed great heroism and technical literacy, saved the ship’s drawings and built a new ship in Japan, on the other hand, the Japanese got quite secret technologies at that time, using which they could switch to a brand new for yourself the level in shipbuilding ....


      Cm:
      After the death of "Diana" the crew managed on their own according to the drawings of the schooner "An experience", published in the magazine Marine Collection, which appeared among the saved things (No. 1 for 1849). Under the guidance of officers, sailors, with the help of local residents, harvested wood in the forest, drove tar, spun hemp ropes, sewed sails. Already in April, the schooner, named "Kheda" and on board which was E.V. Putyatin with the 2nd-rank captain K.N. Posyet, set sail and went around Japan from the south, on May 10 she arrived in Petropavlovsk.


      From myself I’ll add: Diana at that time --- was out of date for at least 40 years. There were already iron steamers
      1. Nekarmadlen
        Nekarmadlen 17 July 2016 14: 18
        0
        Japan seemed to be at that time a very closed and rather backward feudal country ... Imagine that a UFO would crash in your garden, the surviving aliens will show you how to build something similar from the means at hand and fly away)))) What effect is this will produce on you))) ....
  17. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 17 July 2016 14: 31
    +2
    Mozhaisky's achievement is, first of all, his belief in his intuitive understanding of the correctness of the idea. Many inventors with "breakthrough" ideas have perished in the darkness of the centuries, leaving no trace in history. Mozhaisky's mistake - not in the choice of the engine - he could not offer anything else as an engine. He was NOT KNOWN with aerodynamics, and he was not embarrassed by the too short and wide wing of his aircraft. Now it is difficult to understand why he did not go through the experiment on models, he immediately switched from one "model" to a full-size apparatus. Disregarding the laws of nature is costly for inventors. By the way, if the aerodynamics of the aircraft were successful, an engine of 30 horsepower could be enough, at least for a low flight.
  18. Denimax
    Denimax 17 July 2016 15: 38
    +2
    At that time, creating a plane with a steam engine was not an easy task. Before the internal combustion engine had to wait. The glider itself from racks and rags could be built without problems. But there was no engine. The most that was feasible, it could be a PuVRD, not necessarily with a valve as on V-1, there are valveless ones, as on targets.
    It was technically easy to implement, but no knowledge.
  19. pafegosoff
    pafegosoff 17 July 2016 16: 47
    +3
    No one will ever forget Mozhaisky.
    From all aviators: Hooray!
  20. evil partisan
    evil partisan 17 July 2016 17: 18
    +1
    Anything can be said about the Bolsheviks, but it is precisely with them that the creative principle of the Russian and other peoples b. The Russian Empire has reached true prosperity. Especially in technology. Any talented person had a great chance to realize their ideas. But bone and narrow thinking, swagger, idolatry of the tsarist officials before the West destroyed not only Mozhaisky.
    1. AK64
      AK64 17 July 2016 17: 25
      +3
      Anything can be said about the Bolsheviks, but it is precisely with them that the creative principle of the Russian and other peoples b. The Russian Empire has reached true prosperity. Especially in technology. Any talented person had a great chance to realize their ideas. But bone and narrow thinking, swagger, idolatry of the tsarist officials before the West destroyed not only Mozhaisky.


      Throw on occasion a list of scientists and engineers planted or directly killed by the Bolsheviks or under the rule of the Bolsheviks - be very surprised.
      1. evil partisan
        evil partisan 17 July 2016 17: 41
        -1
        Quote: AK64
        Throw a little list on occasion

        I suggest you "throw" it yourself. You will probably find a fan on your farm. And with the necessary substance, I see, you will not have problems request ...
        1. AK64
          AK64 17 July 2016 18: 15
          0
          Ham sent in an hour
      2. Svidetel 45
        Svidetel 45 17 July 2016 20: 13
        +2
        They are victims not so much of the "bloodthirsty" Bolsheviks as of the civil war, which lasted many years even after 21 years, and by and large continues to this day.
        1. AK64
          AK64 17 July 2016 20: 16
          +1
          They are victims not so much of the "bloodthirsty" Bolsheviks as of the civil war, which lasted many years even after 21 years, and by and large continues to this day.


          Well this is cool, Th: with such a bend ("lasted for many years and continues to this day") all the victims of Bolshevism can easily be written off for a civil war ...

          And the Bolsheviks, who called for this very civil war, prepared this very civil war and started it, turn out as if out of work: "the wind blew."

          Cool, what
    2. MrK
      MrK 17 July 2016 18: 41
      +1
      I agree and support the evil partisan.
      I think today Senior Sergeant Mikhail Timofeevich Kalashnikov not only wouldn’t have gone to the generals, inventing AK, but couldn’t even get a loader in the Azeri market.
    3. Mother CheeseEarth
      Mother CheeseEarth 17 July 2016 19: 43
      -3
      Quote: Angry Guerrilla
      Anything can be said about the Bolsheviks, but it is precisely with them that the creative principle of the Russian and other peoples b. The Russian Empire has reached true prosperity. Especially in technology. Any talented person had a great chance to realize their ideas.

      AMAZING!
      Be so kind as to list the inventions made in the USSR.
      More precisely, Its made the Bolshevik locksmith, in addition to blind (and often banally illiterate) copying of foreign equipment, on the same equipment abroad.
      1. MrK
        MrK 17 July 2016 21: 28
        +1
        Quote: Mother CheeseEarth
        AMAZING!
        Be so kind as to list the inventions made in the USSR.


        I will list you only what has been preserved in my memory since Soviet times. Home
        1. Tank T-34. This tank is recognized by the whole world community as the best medium tank of the Second World War.
        2. Tank KV. Even the Germans themselves recognized it as the best heavy tank of the first half of World War II and which the Germans could not knock out of any of their anti-tank guns.
        3. Tank IS-2. The best heavy tank of the end of World War II, which even the fascist Tigers of all modifications could not compete with.
        4. Fighter YAK-3. The best light fighter of World War II, according to many foreign experts.
        5. The Soviet atomic bomb, which we made in just four years, on a practically empty place. Now drawings of atomic charge can be taken on the Internet. Take it and do it! However, nothing will work. Because for its manufacture it is necessary to CREATE AN APPROPRIATE SCIENTIFIC AND TECHNICAL AND PRODUCTION BASE.
        6. The hydrogen bomb that we made the first in the world, ahead of the Americans themselves, who began working on it much earlier and worked for almost ten years. And we got it in the 1953 year, on war-ravaged land.
        7. The world's first nuclear power plant in Obninsk. As an example of the peaceful uses of the atom.
        8. The world's first nuclear-powered icebreaker. Another example of a peaceful Soviet approach to the use of nuclear energy on earth.
        9. The world's first satellite of the earth. It was a terrible blow to the prestige and psychology of Americans.
        10. But then followed the world's first launch of higher-class living beings into space, the dogs Belka and Strelka and their return to earth.
        11. And then something happened that the Americans still can not forgive. The first cosmonaut in the world, a citizen of the Soviet Union, Yuri Gagarin appeared. It was then that the President of the United States uttered his famous words: the Russians defeated us in the competition for Space AT THE SCHOOL PARTY.
        12. And then our impressive achievements in space exploration went: the world's first images of the far side of the moon,
        13. The first pennant from the earth, delivered to the moon and left there forever, as a symbol of the triumph of the Soviet Socialist system on this earth.
        14. The world's first moving vehicle, the so-called lunar rover, delivered to the moon and moving for many months on the surface of the moon
        and transmitting images of the moon to the earth.
        15. The world's first orbiting space station, orbiting around the earth, with interchangeable crews of astronauts working on it for several months.
        16. The world's first reusable spacecraft called the Buran, launched from an orbiting aircraft and returning to the ground in automatic mode.
        1. MrK
          MrK 17 July 2016 21: 36
          +2
          Extension
          17. The world's first super-tall, so-called Ostankino television tower, built according to an unusual and ultra-safe domestic project.
          18. The best rifle in the world, a brilliant Soviet worker who became an outstanding Soviet designer, Mikhail Kalashnikov.
          19. The most massive semi-automatic welding of metal structures in the world in a protective gas environment with a consumable electrode and now called Russian welding.
          20. Automatic submerged-arc welding of metals, with which we welded tank hulls in the Tankograd in the Urals during World War II.
          21. Automatic welding of metal of unlimited thickness, the so-called electroslag welding, which in Soviet times was widely used in the manufacture of large body parts for various purposes weighing up to several thousand tons.
          22. One of the most popular ways of producing high-alloy steels with desired properties, now called electroslag remelting.
          23. Mastering the mass production of multilayer twisted pipes for high-pressure gas pipelines, which are now butt-welded when installed in the field according to the method proposed by Vitaly Ovchinnikov.
          24. Mastering the production of brazed, instead of welded metal masts of high-voltage gears.
          25. Mastering the production of the world's largest converters for smelting steel with a capacity of over five hundred tons.
          26. Mastering the production of converter steel with a purge of liquid melt with oxygen instead of air.
          27. The introduction of a unified energy system in the country, the only one in the world for such large states. In America, it still does not exist, but we have it! More precisely - it was! Mr. Chubais, along with his friends and accomplices such as Mother SyrEarth, destroyed her.
          28. A single geological map for the entire country, according to which it is still possible to predict the location of various minerals. No major country in the world still has such a map.
          29. The first in the world installation for controlled nuclear fusion of type TOKAMAK
          30. The world's first mobile installation for launching ballistic missiles based on railway wagons, the analogues of which are still unknown in the world and,
          which we destroyed at the request of the US State Department in the memorable nineties.
          31. The world's first nuclear submarine with a two-layer welded hull, capable of operating at depths of over six hundred meters.
          31. The world's first nuclear submarine with a welded hull of titanium, capable of diving to a depth of up to a thousand meters.
          34. The first aircraft in the world with a variable wing geometry, which caused a sensation at the Le Bourget parade at the time.
          1. MrK
            MrK 17 July 2016 21: 38
            +1
            Extension

            35. The world's first plane with vertical lift and landing.
            36. The world's first jet passenger liner.
            37. The world's first supersonic passenger liner.
            38. In general, it must be admitted that more than forty percent of the world's passenger aircraft in the second half of the twentieth century were equipped with Soviet aircraft.
            39. The world's first "ekranoplan".
            40. The world's first giant transport aircraft capable of transporting over 250 tons of payload by air.
            41. The world's first ship on hydrofoils.
            42. The first in the world contact butt welding of large-sized bodies of diesel engines of diesel locomotives and marine vessels.
            43. The first in the world industrial contact butt welding of pipes of main pipelines in field conditions.
            44. The first and only carousel in the world for processing hydroturbine housings with a faceplate diameter of fifteen meters.
            46. The world's first heavy-duty dump truck with a payload of 850 tons for coal and iron ore deposits in southern Yakutia.
            47. The only country in the world producing large-capacity walking excavators with a bucket capacity in excess of 150 cubic meters.
            48. The only country in the world that produces floating dredges of great power for the extraction of gold and rare-earth minerals from the bottom of rivers.
            All that I called here is just what immediately occurred to me and what can be said right away, offhand, and about which practically every technically competent and technically inquisitive Soviet person knew.
            Much has been written about these achievements in the journals Technique of Youth, Knowledge and Power, Science and Life, Young Technician and in a number of other periodicals of the Soviet Union, published in millions of copies. And which we do not have in our country now. They were replaced by countless glossy magazines with half-naked and completely naked girls.
            This begs the elementary conclusion, from which you can’t get anywhere, even if you would like to. The conclusion is as follows: The Soviet Union in its development was at the forefront of world technological progress and its contribution to the development of human civilization is extremely large.
            Despite its natural costs and THREE SCARY WARS, THROUGH OUR SPACES FOR 50 YEARS OF THE XX CENTURY.
            1. Mother CheeseEarth
              Mother CheeseEarth 17 July 2016 23: 34
              -4
              Quote: mrark
              MrK

              It’s hard to read all that WRONG, and often outright nonsense that you constantly write.
              Almost through every word lies, and what’s not a lie, then half the truth!
              For example, you write "The world's first nuclear power plant in Obninsk" and "The introduction of a unified energy system in the country .... In America it still does not exist" and for some reason do not write, for the generation of electricity by the USSR with its UES almost 2 times inferior to the United States, and even more per capita. As well as about the fact that the share of nuclear power plants in the generation of electricity in the USSR was also less.
              I don’t feel like commenting any further.
        2. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 18 July 2016 10: 02
          +1
          Quote: mrark
          1. Tank T-34. This tank is recognized by the whole world community as the best medium tank of the Second World War.

          Best medium tank for the USSR. Besides, whole world community represented by the Discovery channel smile familiar with the T-34, mainly on the T-34-85UKN. And this is a completely different tank than those that were in the war.
          In addition, the basis of the T-34 is the BT range (more precisely, BT-7A). And about the ancestor of BT, I think you are in the know.
          Quote: mrark
          2. Tank KV. Even the Germans themselves recognized it as the best heavy tank of the first half of World War II and which the Germans could not knock out of any of their anti-tank guns.

          Gorgeous. And who then knocked out fifty KV tanks from the 2nd TD, which disappeared under the Rassenim. Or who destroyed almost the entire 124 XNUMX units under Strelna?
          Please do not repeat the myths. The invulnerability of KV tanks appears in German memoirs only when the Germans try to cover up their tactical blunders with the "Bolshevik Wunderwaffe."
          Here is the real picture with the CV susceptibility obtained by the results Soviet Shooting captured German anti-tank vehicles:
          On June 25, 1942, the Chairman of the GAU Art Committee, Major General Khokhlov, approved the test program for tank armor of domestic production with captured shells armed with German artillery and shells armed with spacecraft. In accordance with the specified program of work, the Gorokhovets training range from October 9 to November 4, 1942, shot with captured trophy 37 mm ordinary and sub-caliber shells, 50 mm ordinary and sub-caliber shells 75 mm homogeneous medium hard armor plates, 45 mm homogeneous armor plates high hardness and 30 mm homogeneous armor plates of medium hardness.

          Test result:
          50-mm anti-tank gun PaK.38, ordinary armor-piercing:
          The 75 mm sheet normal showed a back strength of 700 m, a through penetration of 400 m. That is starting from a distance of 700 m and closer PaK.38 can penetrate the armor of unshielded HF, with 400 m it is guaranteed to penetrate.
          (...)
          50-mm anti-tank gun PaK.38, sub-caliber:
          The 75-mm sheet normal showed the back strength of 870 m, the through penetration of 740 m, at an angle of 30 degrees to the normal of 530 and 470 m, respectively.
          (...)
          37-mm anti-tank gun PaK.36, sub-caliber:
          75-mm sheet along the normal showed the durability limit of 180 m, the limit of penetration through the 120 m.

          Quote: mrark
          5. The Soviet atomic bomb, which we made in just four years, on a practically empty place. Now drawings of atomic charge can be taken on the Internet. Take it and do it! However, nothing will work. Because for its manufacture it is necessary to CREATE AN APPROPRIATE SCIENTIFIC AND TECHNICAL AND PRODUCTION BASE.

          Soviet invention the atomic bomb is not. Because when it was developed, the data obtained from the USA on the American product was widely used.
          Yes, we built the atomprom as soon as possible. But the bomb themselves, from scratch, did not invent.
          1. Simpsonian
            Simpsonian 18 July 2016 11: 14
            0
            KVs were knocked out only from a towed anti-aircraft gun, which later became a Tiger cannon.

            In general, almost everyone immediately invented it, but the Germans were a little earlier than everyone. The device was its own design and better than the American. Technology is costly but not unique.
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 18 July 2016 13: 49
              0
              Quote: Simpsonian
              KVs were knocked out only from a towed anti-aircraft gun, which later became a Tiger cannon.

              Once again: the standard anti-tank gun of the Wehrmacht PaK.38 conventional caliber armor-piercing shell (not sub-caliber) could break through 75-mm domestic armor from 700 m and was guaranteed to penetrate it from 400 m. Moreover, it was installed by our specialists at our training ground.
              So the German anti-tankers could do without flasks.
              1. Simpsonian
                Simpsonian 18 July 2016 18: 25
                0
                Did not do. Perhaps it was still a matter of rational angles and the tactical side of the issue.
      2. evil partisan
        evil partisan 17 July 2016 21: 45
        +3
        Quote: Mother CheeseEarth
        that Bolshevik locksmith did HIS OWN, except for blind (and often banal illiterate) copying of foreign equipment

        I will not say for everyone, but I will say for myself. On the instructions of our ministry, we at our institute created an analogue of an imported device (flaw detector). Our device turned out to be several times lighter than an imported analogue, more sensitive, more technologically advanced, and easier to install. And no copying. Received Copyright and Patent. The device was so successful that Brazil, South Africa and Australia wanted to buy it. But then Gaidar came with his gang and everything went to dust ...
        1. Mother CheeseEarth
          Mother CheeseEarth 17 July 2016 23: 05
          0
          Quote: Angry Guerrilla
          at our institute we created an analogue of an imported device

          Exactly. Keyword ANALOGUE OF IMPORTwhich I’m talking about.
          And yes, the pioneers in "flaw detectors" were the Russian scientists Lachinov and Sokolov, and you, the Soviets, after almost 100 years developed import analog.
          Quote: Angry Guerrilla
          The device was so successful that Brazil, South Africa and Australia wanted to buy it.

          Apparently, not so successful, since even Brazil and South Africa did not buy it as a result.
          And Gaidar has nothing to do with it.
          1. evil partisan
            evil partisan 17 July 2016 23: 11
            0
            Quote: Mother CheeseEarth
            Apparently, not so successful, since even Brazil and South Africa did not buy it as a result.

            I would understand what. fool
            Quote: Mother CheeseEarth
            And Gaidar has nothing to do with it.

            Precisely with that. You can not understand.
            1. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 17 July 2016 23: 17
              -2
              In order for him to understand, two words "RD-180", "Yak-141" are enough, or just a troll knows about it.
              % 80 of the world's patents are of Russian origin.
              1. Anglorussian
                Anglorussian 17 July 2016 23: 39
                -2
                80 world patents - Russian origin
                Generally 99.95%. yes
                1. Simpsonian
                  Simpsonian 18 July 2016 00: 13
                  0
                  in general, someone even put a minus under RD-180 ...
                  about% 80 it is easy to google, there was the first practical submarine of "Drzewiecki", so your Lockheed with her blueprints escaped one paddling pool to France, and the French think that they have a priority, made them and then used them against Russia
                  1. Anglorussian
                    Anglorussian 18 July 2016 00: 26
                    0
                    % 80 google easy
                    the first practical submarine "Drzewiecki"? Who built the first nuclear submarine? Deeper, who created industrial steelmaking? (In honor of whom were the open-hearth furnaces and the converter named?) And who built the first steel ship? What about the first turbo rover and the first homing munition?
                    1. Simpsonian
                      Simpsonian 18 July 2016 00: 35
                      0
                      Anglorussians? lol
                      from those who built someone stole the blueprints and fled with them to another country, then posing as his own?
                      By the way, the Americans stole the Harrier from the Angles, you’ll go to Seattle, just try to tell them that this is so lol
                    2. Simpsonian
                      Simpsonian 18 July 2016 22: 21
                      0
                      More about "Watt's steam engine" write (as easy as shelling pears) that this Turkish citizen of Her Majesty lol I saw at the Ural factories when I practiced there. Himself to her if something added, then only the regulator, and then this is not known for certain.
                      1. Anglorussian
                        Anglorussian 19 July 2016 01: 17
                        0
                        at the Ural factories when I practiced there
                        Did James Watt practice in Russia? This is kind of illogical. And not true.
                      2. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 19 July 2016 01: 37
                        -1
                        Practiced, dear - that’s the whole thing ... English industrialization began with steam engines, and they appeared in Russia at the Ural factories much earlier.
                        And this Watt's malaise then was the same as the Lord degree Kelvin, who in 1985 many years later Mozhaisky’s plane postulated that the devices couldn’t detect heavier than air ...
                      3. Anglorussian
                        Anglorussian 19 July 2016 01: 47
                        +1
                        Practiced, dear - that's the whole point.
                        Where and when? He was invited to Russia in 1773, but he remained in England and worked in Birmingham at Bolton's factories (from 1774) for almost 25 years. And the first steam engines were built by Nykomen, again an Englishman.
                      4. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 19 July 2016 02: 27
                        0
                        Yes, yes, of course ... refused lol and didn’t know at all what it is and where it is. yes

                        And 350 years later, when the British refused to travel with Russia to Russia, the main interesting detail from the steam engine of one Soviet aircraft Mozhaysky suddenly began to be called
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_LiftSystem
                  2. Anglorussian
                    Anglorussian 18 July 2016 01: 11
                    +1
                    your Lockheed with her drawings
                    And what about the Loughead brothers?
                    1. Simpsonian
                      Simpsonian 18 July 2016 01: 27
                      -1
                      Lockheed is already a household name
                      1. Anglorussian
                        Anglorussian 18 July 2016 01: 34
                        0
                        For pseudo-patriots? Let it go like this And in Russia it eats that answer to the Lockheed brothers?
                      2. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 18 July 2016 01: 41
                        -1
                        For people like you - their company took something in Russia and did not forget.
                      3. Anglorussian
                        Anglorussian 18 July 2016 02: 11
                        0
                        took in Russia and not forgotten.
                        Remind me for people like me. I’ll come and take away. Sikorsky-Kiev Jew-in Russian designers, too, do not write, bad karma for the troll ...
                      4. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 18 July 2016 04: 53
                        0
                        Yeah, write down where ... A Jew would not then work in France in a barn for food. bully Keep on spoiling your ...
                      5. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 18 July 2016 22: 29
                        0
                        Then, in the USA, his company would not be taken away for nothing, where he later was not even a co-owner. laughing
            2. bubalik
              bubalik 17 July 2016 23: 27
              +1
              evil partisan (3) RU Today, 23: 11 ↑ ↓
              ,,, who is the witness? I am a witness! And what happened? (C) ,, (I didn’t read the branch) ,,, request
              1. evil partisan
                evil partisan 17 July 2016 23: 43
                0
                Quote: bubalik
                who is the witness? I am a witness! What happened?

                stop Calmly suspect! You will not be able to mislead the investigation. Where were you 17.07/2016. 0 from 23 hours to 27:XNUMX? AND??
                Hello, Sergey! drinks
        2. Anglorussian
          Anglorussian 17 July 2016 23: 42
          +1
          Gaidar came with his gang and everything went to dust ..
          So build and sell in the open market. There will be brothers. For American-dear.
          1. Simpsonian
            Simpsonian 18 July 2016 11: 24
            0
            Why did they get it open?
  21. AID.S
    AID.S 17 July 2016 17: 47
    +1
    The question is not who invented, but who started production. Even if Mozhaisky had invented a wood-burning computer, there would have been no sense in Russia then, since there were no conditions for production and use ..
    Well, Russia was backward, so it remains to be proud that Mozhaisky built a plane in a country that did not need this plane and was not clear ..
  22. Denimax
    Denimax 17 July 2016 18: 41
    +3
    Quote: AID.S
    which this plane was not needed and not understandable ..

    The military could even understand very well. Fly like a bird, in any direction. This is for aerial reconnaissance.
    Here, the feasibility of the apparatus was heavier than air. And Mozhaisky himself can be attributed to the category of Geniuses. Which foresee earlier than ordinary people.
    ETOGES what impulse you need to have in order to discard everything for the sake of an idea.
    1. Svidetel 45
      Svidetel 45 17 July 2016 20: 42
      +4
      Well, our military was (and is) different, at the end of the 19th century we had military specialists who met magazine rifles and machine guns with hostility due to the "excessive" consumption of ammunition, and only the practice of using a new one made us change our minds. Conservatism and mental inertia are not easy to overcome.
      And Mozhaisky’s merit lies in the fact that he first attempted to realize the seditious idea of ​​flying vehicles heavier than air in his time, and the fact that this attempt was unsuccessful for a number of reasons already mentioned does not change anything and does not detract from his merits, because our time, when a whole scientific branch of aircraft construction was created, whole scientific teams work, mistakes are made in the calculations and failures in the creation of specific models. So his name should take forever and takes its rightful place in the list of pioneers-conquerors of the air ocean.
      1. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 17 July 2016 21: 20
        0
        Quote: Svidetel 45
        Conservatism and inertia of thinking are not easy to overcome.

        it is usually a banal extortion of a bribe ... but where did the pioneer Mozhaisky get the money for it? he himself wanted them from the government, albeit at a rollback
        it cannot be that a small steam engine (at least 95% of the cost) is worth the money that "Bayonet" wrote about here ... lol

        For this they shot or imprisoned under Stalin and not under the Tsar.
        now just being transferred to another job ...
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 18 July 2016 10: 37
        +2
        Quote: Svidetel 45
        Well, our military was (and is) different, at the end of the 19th century we had military specialists who met magazine rifles and machine guns with hostility due to the "excessive" consumption of ammunition, and only the practice of using a new one made us change our minds.

        Heh heh heh ... it’s just that these military men knew a little the same for domestic industry and the domestic soldier. And they understood that if you introduce magazines and machine guns into the army, then the consumption of cartridges will be wow, but the arrival of cartridges will be scanty. And they were right:
        By the beginning of the 1900th century, Russia had three cartridge factories: Petersburg and Lugansk - state-owned and Tula - private, owned by the Joint-Stock Company of Copper Rolling and Cartridge Plants. In 65, the annual productivity of the St. Petersburg plant reached 700 thousand, Lugansk - 31 thousand, Tula - 000 thousand.
        (...)
        ... on the eve of the war with Japan, there were 321 rounds of bullets missing.

        As a result, even for the RNE it was necessary to order 560 million rounds of ammunition abroad - in Germany and Austria-Hungary. The RPE is over - and the situation with cartridges has remained unchanged:
        After the war with Japan, at the request of the Ministry of Finance, the production of cartridges began to decline sharply. The total demand based on the norms was estimated at 3346 million cartridges.
        In stock, by the beginning of 1908, less than half consisted of 1600 million cartridges.
        ... at the request of the Ministry of Finance, the stock rate was reduced to 2892 million. This rate was approved in January 1908 as temporary. However, until 1914 it was not revised.
        In total, by the beginning of the World War, 2746 million cartridges were to be held, and only 2446 million 3-line cartridges were available, i.e., 300 million less than the standards underestimated by the Ministry of Finance

        As a result, the situation in the nuclear warheads repeated in the PMR: cartridge consumption increased from 150 million per month to 300 million, and the productivity of plants from 50 million / month to 125 million / month (with an operating time of 22 hours a day, 29 days in month).
        And what is the worst thing - even this increased productivity of the plants was not fully used:
        The cartridge factories needed 35 thousand pounds of smokeless powder per month, but the powder factories could not cope with this, which was the reason for the suspension of the cartridge factories during interruptions in the delivery of gunpowder.
        1. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 18 July 2016 11: 04
          +1
          all warring countries had similar problems, everyone thought that the war would go on for only six months.
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 18 July 2016 14: 07
            +1
            Quote: Simpsonian
            all warring countries had similar problems, everyone thought that the war would go on for only six months.

            All warring countries could think anything. But Russia had invaluable Russian-Japanese experience, which showed that the existing stock of cartridges and the capacity of the cartridge industry did not cover the expense even in a local war. And foreign deliveries come too late.
            So what? But nothing - Russia comes back to WWI again with a hole in the reserves and again with the same plant capacities - at a much higher expense. And even worse, Germany and Austria-Hungary, who bought cartridges last time, are now listed as opponents from Russia.
            1. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 18 July 2016 18: 20
              0
              All the warring countries were nearby; therefore, the development of the database was supposed to be rapid.
              Japan did not just buy from koto, but more often it was simply armed against Russia on credit, which they then wrote off, after Halhngol they had direct help / aid from Roosevelt
              1. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA 19 July 2016 09: 54
                +2
                Quote: Simpsonian
                after Halhngol, they had direct help from Roosevelt / aid

                Japan? Help from Roosevelt after Khalkhin Gol? belay
                Oh yes ... Roosevelt helped them. First, in 1938, a moral embargo on the supply of aircraft was introduced. Yes, it was optional. But, in the light of the upcoming triple Roosevelt increase in the US Army, companies violating this embargo had every chance of flying past a fat government order. And the hint was understood correctly.
                Then, in September 1940, exports to Japan of aviation gasoline and raw materials for ferrous metallurgy (scrap, iron ore) were limited. And in 1941, the Japanese economy suffered a decisive blow - all Japanese assets were frozen and an oil embargo was introduced.

                If Roosevelt helped anyone, it’s Japan’s main opponent, Generalissimo Chan. Loans, weapons, instructors and volunteers poured on him. Chiang Kai-shek even got under the Lend-Lease program.
                1. Simpsonian
                  Simpsonian 19 July 2016 20: 14
                  +1
                  "moral embargo" it sounds ... who flew by?
                  Embargoes were introduced or removed until July 1941
                  American assistance to the Japanese was greater; the Roosevelt would really help the Chinese if they introduced the oil embargo in 1931-1937.
                  Then, in 1941, he imposed this embargo, but significantly superior in strength he immediately surrendered the Japanese oil fields in the Philippines.
                  The main enemy of Japan was the USSR, China was their main victim.
                  The USSR really helped China, and did not sell oil to the Japanese, from which it was possible to make the same gasoline, and there was plenty of iron ore in Manchuria.
  23. Cat
    Cat 17 July 2016 18: 45
    +2
    With all the disadvantages of the design, Mozhaisky found the appearance of an airplane that can be considered classic:
    Central fuselage.
    The rear tail.
    The location of the front pull screw.
    Plus side screws. 30 years after the Mozhaisky plane, many aircraft manufacturers did not believe that it was possible to install two propellers in a row.
    Chassis.
    The location of the pilot.
    It is now, after 100 years with a tail, for us the view of the plane is natural and obvious. And then at the end of the century before last? It is necessary to have some kind of intuition, talent and more providence to "guess" this way. Take a photo of the Mozhaisk and WWII airplane and find 10 differences. I suppose you will do it with difficulty!
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 17 July 2016 19: 56
      -1
      No, what are you, the first Wright plane is more modern and modern, the hymenoptera Adera is so shiny ...
  24. Old26
    Old26 18 July 2016 12: 39
    +4
    It is written of course emotionally, but sometimes too far from reality. It is sometimes incomprehensible in these posts, and what comrade MPARK takes as a basis. Either a priority, or a series. Therefore, everything turns out to be piled in one pile.

    Quote: mrark
    6. The hydrogen bomb that we made the first in the world, ahead of the Americans themselves, who began working on it much earlier and worked for almost ten years. And we got it in the 1953 year, on war-ravaged land.

    Americans have not worked on a hydrogen bomb for 10 years. We started working on it in the late 40s, EMNIP seems in 47th. To be absolutely precise, it was the Americans who were the first to detonate a thermonuclear device. And they did it on November 1, 1952. Power, if sclerosis does not change me, was about 15 mt. In 1953, we tested a bomb, which, in principle, was not yet a full-fledged thermonuclear one. The main energy output was from a fission reaction, not a synthesis. But we continue to believe that the RDS-6s with a capacity of 400 kt was the first hydrogen. In principle, this does not contradict realities. But the thermonuclear device was still the first to blow up the Americans.

    Quote: mrark
    15. The world's first orbiting space station, orbiting around the earth, with interchangeable crews of astronauts working on it for several months.

    The first space station? Yes. "Salyut-1". The crew worked for 22 days.
    A station that worked with shift crews, all the more so for several months — no.
    The first such station was Skylab, which was launched on May 14, 1973, and until February 1974 hosted three expeditions of 28, 59 and 84 days, respectively. Our similar station with replacement crews "Salyut-3" was launched on 26.6.1974

    Quote: mrark
    16. The world's first reusable spacecraft called the Buran, launched from an orbiting aircraft and returning to the ground in automatic mode.

    Interestingly, from which orbital aircraft the "Buran" was launched? As for who was the first in the reusable ships, it was the Americans. Their first launch was on April 12.4.1981, 20, in time for the 37th anniversary of Gagarin's flight. "Buran" actually landed in automatic mode, it was really the first time. But there is nothing supernatural about it. The Americans are also planting their Kh-XNUMX on the machine.

    Quote: mrark
    The world's first mobile installation for launching ballistic missiles based on railway wagons, which there are still no analogues in the world and which we destroyed at the request of the US State Department in the memorable nineties.

    Do you seriously think that the Molodets launcher was the first in the world? Alas, I must disappoint you. In the summer of 1960, the Americans conducted Operation Big Star. when prototypes of PU were rolled on their railways. And in 1961, railroad trains were tested on the roads. The work was started earlier than ours. Another thing is that they considered it an expensive pleasure, and settled on the classic silos. Our serial was really the first. But only serial.
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 18 July 2016 18: 33
      -1
      The X-37 uses automation from the same Buran lol, the American wharf and the ISS segment also have the Soviet berthing system, I just won’t talk about the rest ...
      For Americans, such things are supernatural, so they have brains.
  25. Old26
    Old26 18 July 2016 12: 49
    +3
    Quote: mrark
    34. The first aircraft in the world with a variable wing geometry, which caused a sensation at the Le Bourget parade at the time.

    Oh well, what really were we the first? I didn’t know. And I, thought that the first aircraft with variable geometry (sweep) of the wing took to the air 20.6.1951 year. And he was called Bell X-5. And I thought that the first mass-produced aircraft with the IHC was an American F-111. Who made his first flight 21.12.1964 years, and was in operation with 18.07/1967. XNUMX year.

    For information.
    Our MIG-23 first took to the air 10.06.1967 years (almost 1 month before the F-111 began to be used in the army). The MIG has been in operation since May 1969.
    Our SU-17 first took to the air 2.08.1966, and in operation with August 1970

    Quote: mrark
    35. The world's first plane with vertical lift and landing.

    Alas ... And here we were not the first .. I don’t even take an American as an example Bell D-188A. He had a completely different scheme. But the first VTOL aircraft Hauker R-1127 took off on 21.10.1960/XNUMX/XNUMX. Following him Kestrel FGA.1 took to the air 7.03.1964.

    And our Yak-36 - only 27.07.1964/XNUMX/XNUMX. The first "Harrier" took to the air 13.08.1966 Series - with 1967in operation with 1.04.1969.
    Our Yak-38 first flew 22.09.1970/XNUMX/XNUMXin operation with 11.08.1977. So here we are not the first
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 18 July 2016 18: 50
      0
      Actually, the Su-7B was before the MiG-23 with variable sweep of the wing ...
      the Germans still had a plane in the Second World War on which the sweep of its wing changed equipment on the ground before departure, that is, it lacked only a drive.
      D-188A did not go further than the layout.
      The Yak-36 rose in 1962 (according to foreign sources - January 9, 1963), and the first, before the Haukers, reached combat readiness, why didn't you write about the Yak-41 with such details?
      1. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 18 July 2016 19: 03
        +1
        ahh-hah-hah! ... Bell X-5 is sobsno and there is a German aircraft copied by the Americans (see. Wiki) crying
        They then stole the AV-8B from the British, and the Perestroika gave them the F-35B because the Conver 200 did not even go beyond the picture.
        About the story of the Canadian convertiplane 25 years ahead of the American see under another article today.
  26. Old26
    Old26 18 July 2016 12: 50
    +2
    Quote: mrark
    36. The world's first jet passenger liner.

    The world's first jet passenger liner operated on regular passenger routes was the British "Comet-1". The first flight 9.01.1951/2.5.1952/XNUMX, on the tracks from XNUMX.
    Our Tu-104 first took off 17.6.1955/15.05.1956/XNUMX, on the tracks - from XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX

    Quote: mrark
    38. In general, it must be admitted that more than forty percent of the world's passenger aircraft in the second half of the twentieth century were equipped with Soviet aircraft.

    Can you confirm this with numbers?

    Quote: mrark
    41. The world's first ship on hydrofoils.

    Yes? Alas. The first commercial hydrofoil was Swiss "Supermarine" RT-20. Started to transport passengers in 1952. The first Soviet ship on PC "Rocket" - only in 1957 ...

    After so many of your mistakes, dear MrK with a 100% guarantee, to believe that the rest is true, alas, is no longer possible.
    *******************************
    As for the Mozhaisky plane and the Wright brothers. One must nevertheless probably consider this not only from the point of view of priority. Mozhaysky built the world's first airplane - BUILT. The plane, alas, did not fly. The Wright brothers were not the first to have a plane fly. But they had the first in the world MANAGED FLIGHT.
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 18 July 2016 18: 37
      0
      Quote: Old26
      confirm this with numbers

      and why there were no revelations?

      after the accidents of "Komet", the English queen seriously thought about buying Soviet planes

      as for Mozhaisky’s plane, why again try to pull that it was uncontrollable?
  27. Old26
    Old26 18 July 2016 20: 51
    +1
    Quote: Simpsonian
    after the accidents of "Komet", the English queen seriously thought about buying Soviet planes

    Did she think about buying Soviet planes or BUY?

    Quote: Simpsonian
    as for Mozhaisky’s plane, why again try to pull that it was uncontrollable?

    Did he fly? How many tens of meters? Or didn’t fly at all? As for the brothers' planes, but no one claims a single source that his flight was the first. Always talk about the first controlled flight.
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 18 July 2016 21: 19
      0
      It was clearly written that I HAVE BEEN THINKING. Is the Queen of England a serious woman? Does she want to live, or to be killed in the next "Comet"? She was going to buy it personally in the royal squadron, even negotiations were going on.

      Yes, flew. How much ... what is your height and range data specifically in meters?
      They say wrong. They also say that they "developed themselves" the AV-8B based on the purchased AV-8A, although this is not at all the case. And that the first computer was theirs, and even the Merkel was laughed at about this ... And here you are issuing American dummies for the first really flying VTOL aircraft, and for which BZHRK weight "prototypes" which just WENT by rail ... Somehow after this and you, too, do not have 100% faith, dear comrade lol
  28. Old26
    Old26 18 July 2016 23: 36
    +2
    Quote: Simpsonian
    Actually, the Su-7B was before the MiG-23 with variable sweep of the wing ...
    the Germans still had a plane in the Second World War on which the sweep of its wing changed equipment on the ground before departure, that is, it lacked only a drive.
    D-188A did not go further than the layout.
    The Yak-36 rose in 1962 (according to foreign sources - January 9, 1963), and the first, before the Haukers, reached combat readiness, why didn't you write about the Yak-41 with such details?


    Variable sweep of the wing and variable - these are still two big differences.
    The Germans really had a plane, which manually changed the sweep. But he did not fly.
    Therefore, I did not write about D-188A, as about flying.

    Yak-36 did not rise in 1962. And not January 9, 1963. And he could not achieve combat readiness only due to the fact that these were experimental vehicles. Yak-36 was released in 4 copies.

    1. Product B-1. Board.№ 36. It was assembled in the autumn of 1962. At the end of 1962, tests began on a cable crane. The first weigh-in on the cable crane was precisely January 1, 9 (Yuri Garnayev). All of 1963 and 1963 were tested in the T-1964 pipe. At the end of 101, changes were made to the design at the plant, the design began to correspond to Product B-1964

    2. Product B-2. Without a number. Designed for Statistical Tests

    3. Product B-3. Board number 37. The assembly was completed in the spring of 1963. It was delivered to Zhukovsky. We started the weighing tests on the cable crane. In the fall of 1964, changes were made to the design.

    4. Product B-4. Board.№38. 1st flight 27.07.1964/29.09/16. Flight on an airplane profile (Yuri Mukhin). September 7 - the first three free weights (1966 more in October). February XNUMX, XNUMX - vertical take-off - horizontal landing

    So alas. The British have done this before.

    Quote: Simpsonian
    Quote: Old26
    confirm this with numbers

    and why there were no revelations?

    What for? The man wrote stupidity, why expose him yet. Although for this you would just have to dig into the network. And he simply would have seen (without even having done a full analysis) that the number of passenger planes launched in the West exceeded five times those released in the USSR

    Quote: Simpsonian
    ahh-hah-hah! ... Bell X-5 is sobsno and there is a German aircraft copied by the Americans (see. Wiki)
    They then stole the AV-8B from the British,

    Frankly, I don't care if they stole the AV-8B from the British or not. At least only one thing is known that this machine was in service with the United States Commission. As for the Bell X-5, it really was a device copied from Messerschmitt. But unlike the flightless prototype - it flew and sweep changes from 20 to 60 degrees.
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 19 July 2016 01: 09
      -1
      You again confused Bell, Messerschmitt and D-188A, and in their turn.
      Messerschmitt, who later became Bell, flew! What is the problem with the drive if the swivel unit is holding the load? The aircraft did not understand to change the sweep of the wing ...
      D-188A, about which you wrote without indicating whether he flew or not, but on a par with those flying, he was NOT at all.
      Unlike the FORMER and FLYING (though not for long) Mozhaisky aircraft.

      According to the Yak-36, they already write that in 6, and the military ordered a series of 20 cars for trial operation in the army. You are better off looking at more foreign-language sources, less often piglets come in there who take care of Yaki ...
      You have in 1,2,3,4- some absurdities in meaning and terms:
      2/1 Stat tests are ahead of tethered hangings
      4/1 flights on an airplane profile go before hovering
      The aircraft was designed to take off shortly and land vertically. He had 2 tons of combat load and was ready.
      In 1963-1964, a test pilot in free-flight mode without which (6-1) you couldn’t land a plane vertically, even threw a control stick near the ground and smiled at the gathered people around, so the Yak-36 behaved stably. During this, the British got into a goat and clapped with stripping saxas on the strip.
      Then they urgently ordered the same military tests to their Kestrel in 1965-1966 ...

      So alas the British did it later ...

      Well, expose that stupidity (if stupidity). It is desirable in detail as it was here.

      All to give a damn about your to give a damn ... and why wasn’t it a damn about the rest? They also, like the AV-8B, later acquired the Soviet Yak, which you are trying to avoid here in every possible way.
      Before this damn thing you suddenly felt because with all these examples in a row (and with the Canadian convertiplane) it’s immediately clear that the Americans are ...
  29. Old26
    Old26 18 July 2016 23: 36
    +1
    Quote: Simpsonian
    It was clearly written that I HAVE BEEN THINKING. Is the Queen of England a serious woman? Does she want to live, or to be killed in the next "Comet"? She was going to buy it personally in the royal squadron, even negotiations were going on.

    Yes, flew. How much ... what is your height and range data specifically in meters?
    They say wrong. They also say that they "developed themselves" the AV-8B based on the purchased AV-8A, although this is not at all the case. And that the first computer was theirs, and even the Merkel was laughed at about this ... And here you are issuing American dummies for the first really flying VTOL aircraft, and for which BZHRK weight "prototypes" which just WENT by rail ... Somehow after this and you, too, do not have 100% faith, dear comrade

    Do you always distort the statements of those with whom you argue? Or through time? You should not ascribe to me what I did not say.

    From what the Queen of England thought there Mrarkaа
    36. The world's first jet passenger liner.

    was our TU-104 does not become true. The first jet passenger liner was "Kometa"

    Regarding the Mozhaisk aircraft.
    What I consider to be the most reliable information, not politicized - an encyclopedic dictionary released in 1909 - wrote that the flight DID NOT HAVE

    I do not give out "American dummies for the first VTOL aircraft. Do not distort. I wrote:

    Alas ... And here we were not the first .. I don’t even take an American Bell D-188A as an example. He had a completely different scheme. But the first VTOL aircraft Hauker R-1127 took off on 21.10.1960. The Kestrel FGA.1 following it took off on March 7.03.1964, XNUMX.


    Next. MrK Wrote:
    30. The world's first mobile installation for launching ballistic missiles based on railway wagons, which there are still no analogues in the world and which we destroyed at the request of the US State Department in the memorable nineties.

    Note. This is not about BZHRK, then I myself said that the first production - ours. But what mrARK writes is American.
    You write about this:
    and for which BZHRK weight "prototypes" which just Went by rail ...

    Yes, there were launchers, and even full trains. And it was their "trip" that led to the Yuzhnoye design bureau beginning the development of its BZHRKs based on the RT-21M, RT-22 and finally RT-23 products. The result was indeed the creation of a serial BZHRK.

    And all his statements that:
    34. The first aircraft in the world with a variable wing geometry, which caused a sensation at the Le Bourget parade at the time.
    35. The world's first plane with vertical lift and landing.
    38. In general, it must be admitted that more than forty percent of the world's passenger aircraft in the second half of the twentieth century were equipped with Soviet aircraft.
    41. The world's first ship on hydrofoils.

    not true
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 19 July 2016 00: 53
      +1
      Which was so first that it constantly fought with passengers that your Titanic or R-101, which were also built by English "professionals" (not amateurs). Because of what it was decommissioned, and the Queen looked to the side.
      This is his statement, not mine. In refutations on its inaccuracies, you make much more inaccuracies, more tendentious.

      What is the name of the dictionary editor?

      You took as an example a dummy / model and not a ready-made VTOL aircraft, there was no such VTOL aircraft as the D-188A! Flying VTOL aircraft were before the Hawker. Then they gave the wrong date for one Yak, which was ready and fit for use, and flew a year and a half earlier than the good Kestrel. The P-1127 was less usable than Heinkel's first pre-war jet.
      Then they did not write about another Yak.

      Launched from these American RIDING ICBMs, or even at least once?
  30. Old26
    Old26 19 July 2016 09: 12
    +1
    Quote: Simpsonian
    You again confused Bell, Messerschmitt and D-188A, and in their turn.
    Messerschmitt, who later became Bell, flew! What is the problem with the drive if the swivel unit is holding the load? The aircraft did not understand to change the sweep of the wing ...
    D-188A, about which you wrote without indicating whether he flew or not, but on a par with those flying, he was NOT at all.

    Don't you lump everything together now? And VTOL aircraft, and variable sweep? If the opponent is wrong, then it is customary to at least put forward your vision. If I'm wrong, and "Messerschmidt" really flew - plz, tell me when it happened. I personally did not come across such information. And there was information that the "meeser" did not fly, was taken to the United States and on its basis was created Bell X-5.

    D-188A was mentioned solely to say that work in this direction was carried out in the United States as far back as the 50s. His scheme was different from the same YAKs, Haukers and others, so I did not bring it as a completed project.

    Quote: Simpsonian
    Unlike the FORMER and FLYING (though not for long) Mozhaisky aircraft.

    We have various sources. I prefer to still believe in domestic sources, but not politicized, as in the second half of the twentieth century. There was no particular need for the pre-revolutionary publication to pass off wishful thinking. In another post, you asked the name of the editor. A week later, the father returns from the hospital, I will come to him and look

    Quote: Simpsonian
    According to the Yak-36, they already write that in 6, and the military ordered a series of 20 cars for trial operation in the army. You are better off looking at more foreign-language sources, less often piglets come in there who take care of Yaki ...

    I don’t know where and in which sources you read about 6 yaks and 20 ordered, maybe in foreign languages, but what I cited as an example (product numbers and their airborne) is all of their register of produced cars. Do not like it - provide another. How and after what what trials follow I know. And the fact that the car number 2 was used for statistical tests, and not number 1 - I see nothing criminal in this.
    All the same MRARK, in a fit of leavened patriotism, ascribes priority in any field only to the USSR. But you, among other things, fully support him. After all, even an unsuccessful test cycle of the same "Kestrel" does not implore that it took off earlier than the Yak-36.
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 19 July 2016 10: 53
      +1
      You didn’t pile it up but confused the former with the non-former, when what happened, and who stole from someone on one issue, unlike the others, suddenly became immediately not interesting.

      Bell was not created on the basis of the messer, Bell is the same messer.
      Where did you find that he did not fly?

      D-188A is not "work was in progress" but a model was blinded (work according to this scheme was carried out according to another messer VJ-101C, it is bad), but you brought it along with real aircraft.

      5 years before this dictionary, there was even a politicized 1st attempt at revolution. History is not studied by encyclopedic dictionaries. The French in their "non-politicized" still write that PL Dzhevetsky is French ... and it was not a Frenchman who stole it in barbarian Russia, but proud and beautiful France helped enlightened Poland.

      The fact that you from somewhere on the Yak-36 cited as an "example" was sewn with white thread and you were pointed out several times in pairs of points to logical inconsistencies, which of course you "did not see" because you do not know. # 2 had to go ahead of # 1 because the statistical tests are done earlier.

      Somewhere I wrote that I completely support him?

      Kestrel even rose later than the Yak-36.
  31. Old26
    Old26 19 July 2016 09: 14
    0
    Quote: Simpsonian
    Well, expose that stupidity (if stupidity). It is desirable in detail as it was here.

    In fact, in the traditions of the resource, and not only this, it is accepted that if a person makes a statement, they may be asked to provide specific data. AND MrK blurted out that in the second half of the twentieth century, 40% of world civil aviation was Soviet aircraft, blurted out stupidity, and prove to others that he was wrong?
    It is not difficult for me to "expose" his stupidity. It is enough to look, and not only in "Vika" the same number of passenger aircraft produced in the USSR and in the West, to understand that there is no smell of 40% there. At the same time, MRARK spoke about "world aviation". By signing this to himself, or rather to his hurray-patriotic reply, "a death sentence." The most massive of the Soviet aircraft were IL-14 (1348), AN-24 (1267) and TU-154 (1026). If you look at what was produced in the west, more than 1000 cars were produced: Airbus A-320, A-330, Boeing-707, Boeing-727, Boeing-737, Boeing-747, Douglas MD-80. And speaking more than 1000 - I do not specifically emphasize, but how many more. Since the same 737 Boeing was produced 8800 cars. And even if we single out those that were created in the 90s - 2000s, then in total this is at least twice as much as the three most massive of ours. Airbus A-320 was produced in the 7120 series. Well, etc. And after that the author is trying to prove that 40% of the world's civil aviation was Soviet?

    Quote: Simpsonian
    Which was so first that it constantly fought with passengers that your Titanic or R-101, which were also built by English "professionals" (not amateurs). Because of what it was decommissioned, and the Queen looked to the side.

    AND? And what, from this "Comet" ceased to be THE WORLD'S FIRST REACTIVE PASSENGER AIRCRAFT?

    Quote: Simpsonian
    Launched from these American RIDING ICBMs, or even at least once?

    Exclusively there were samples from the GVM. And if Mrark would normally formulate his theses, then there would not be such a reaction to his statements. Of modern launchers (for missiles with solid propellant rocket engines), the first alas was made by the Americans. It is the launcher. But the serial BZHRK - there are no problems. Made in the USSR. By the way, actually the Germans made their first attempts to create railway PU for their FAU-2
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 19 July 2016 10: 47
      -1
      Start trying to prove with smaller or larger transport Anels from Mil and Helicopters
      Boeings and Airbases started to grow quantitatively when "perestroika" was already beginning in the USSR.
      There was a time when 40% of GA was Soviet-made.

      Yes, the Titanic also did not cease to be the first Titanic, like the Comet comet ...
      Shove passengers instead of paratroopers or bombs in U-287 - there will be the first passenger, and not one crashed, probably because both flew backwards.

      The Americans could not launch from the wheels, so this is not the BZHRK, but just missiles moving from launch to launch by rail, they are usually carried like that ...
  32. Old26
    Old26 19 July 2016 22: 05
    +2
    Quote: Simpsonian
    Start trying to prove with smaller or larger transport Anels from Mil and Helicopters
    Boeings and Airbases started to grow quantitatively when "perestroika" was already beginning in the USSR.
    There was a time when 40% of GA was Soviet-made.

    It was? And when? I don’t understand just why you so zealously defend the stupidity that another wrote. Remind you how it was written?
    And in general, we must admit that forty-odd percent world passenger aviation in second half of the twentieth century were equipped with Soviet aircraft.


    That is, the author of this stupidity wrote that in the period 1950-2000, more than 40 percent of the world's passenger aircraft were equipped with Soviet aircraft. Somewhere he noted that we no longer take perestroika, for there, Airbus and Boeing went into growth? After all, I, too, when speaking about the fact that we had passenger cars released several times less, did not take into account those that were produced in the West since 1991.
    Now they’ve already remembered that there are transport ANs, they started to say something, that if instead of paratroopers to put passengers in the Junkers ... What’s driving you at the same time - I don’t know. And if you really want the transport workers to remember, then let's remember the western ones. And from this the whole picture will not change. Soviet aircraft in this period have never been more than 40% in the world.
    The same TU-104 produced 206. TU-124 - 165 vehicles, TU-134 - 854, Tu-154 - 1026, 282 IL-62 and 104 IL-86.
    Now we count with them. French "Caravels" - 282, Boeing 707 - 1010, Boeing 727 - 1832, Boeing 737 - 8800 (even if you do not count the production over the past 25 years and leave only half - there will be 4400), Boeing 747 - about one and a half thousand. Airbuses, if you count up to 1991, were also produced one and a half thousand, no less. Plus VAS-111 (Britain) - 244 vehicles. Plus the Douglases DC. And that's just reactive. If we count the turboprop and piston on both sides - again, the comparison will not be in our favor ...
    So the author, if he wants, let him prove his case, give a layout where our planes would be in the world passenger aviation in such a quantity that it would make more than 40%
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 19 July 2016 22: 57
      -1
      Once upon a time ... for at least 5 years. The author of the year did not indicate, and the USSR was until 1991. This "stupidity" was quite widely known in the GA, and was a legitimate source of pride among professionals. Are you now that more than 50% of the Russian-made ISS does not load? And there were times like 100%

      I know what drives you.

      Li-2 was both cargo and passenger. But not reactive. Like some Ana.
    2. Anglorussian
      Anglorussian 20 July 2016 01: 02
      -1
      I've never heard a piece of bullshit. Goat in a crack, wise guy. You have one road there.
  33. Lexa-149
    Lexa-149 19 July 2016 23: 07
    +1
    He flew or "bounced" with a small span - it doesn't matter!
    It's a shame that officials ruined the lofty idea together with the person who gave birth and suffered the idea of ​​a controlled flight. The story of Leskovsky Lefty comes to mind. Nothing has changed ... (((
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 19 July 2016 23: 21
      +1
      It's easier on our own people and then order aeroplan, rifles or mistral abroad, in order to build a dacha there under palm trees with a foreign bribe ...
      Such people only interfere.
  34. Old26
    Old26 20 July 2016 09: 36
    +1
    Quote: Simpsonian
    Once upon a time ... for at least 5 years.

    Clear. The drain is counted. I have no more questions.
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 20 July 2016 12: 12
      0
      Then go where the Anglorussian sent you lol

      Quote: Simpsonian
      Now that more than 50% of the ISS of Russian production does not ship? And there were times that 100%
  35. Old26
    Old26 20 July 2016 17: 23
    +1
    Quote: Simpsonian
    Then go where the Anglorussian sent you

    This line I present to him and you, expert

    Quote: Simpsonian
    Now that more than 50% of the ISS of Russian production does not ship? And there were times that 100%

    There was a time. But only a complete idiot and a jingoistic patriot can say that the ISS was 100% Russian after the launch of only the first block. Now, arithmetic expertsat the ISS 5 Russian modules, 8 American, 3 Japanese and at least 1 Canadian. Not to mention 3 sealed docking modules in the USA, two external storage facilities and 10 American farms with solar panels.

    And if after that is Connoisseurwho states that 5 Russian modules - this is 50% of the 16 ISS modules, then place him at least in FIRST SCHOOLbut better in Kindergarten Preparatory Group ....

    Damn, got it URA-PATRIOTS. There is nothing worse than such goofy ...
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 20 July 2016 20: 18
      -1
      Go already, nobody asked you about it.

      It is necessary to measure by weight, volume of modules and their filling with technologies, and not by the number of bolts and nuts in the farms ...

      yuppie pro-American, giving an example of their priority dummies next to flying and usable Soviet aircraft.