Military Review

Skopin-Shuisky campaign: battles near Torzhok, Tver and Kalyazin

24
Union with Sweden


Caught in a hopeless situation, Tsar Vasily Shuisky decided to make a bet on the outskirts and foreign aid. Sheremetev received an order to unlock Moscow to recruit troops in the Volga region from the Tatars, Bashkirs and legs. Moscow turned for help to the Crimean Khan. Shuisky also decided to ask for help from Sweden, which was then in a state of prolonged conflict with the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (both great powers claimed vast lands in the Baltic States). In the summer of 1608, a talented warlord Tsar's nephew, Prince Mikhail Skopin-Shuisky, was sent to Novgorod. He was instructed to gather in the Russian North to help the besieged Moscow troops, including inviting Swedish mercenaries to the Russian service. Having established ties with the Zemstvo authorities from Perm to the Solovetsky Monastery, Skopin managed to gather up to 5 thousands of Russian soldiers from noblemen, townspeople and peasants. A detachment of free Cossacks Dmitry Sharov, who had previously fought in the army of Bolotnikov, arrived at his service.

At the same time, the king's nephew negotiated with Sweden for military assistance, which King Charles IX offered three years ago. Sweden has long been looking for a reason to interfere in the internal affairs of the Russian state. Therefore, the Swedish leadership gladly used the opportunity. 28 February 1609 was signed by the All-Union Vyborg Treaty, according to which Tsar Vasily Shuisky, in exchange for hired soldiers, gave the city of Korela to Sweden with the county. Thus, foreign military aid was purchased at a high price. In addition, the alliance with Sweden concealed a great danger in the future. Firstly, the Swedes were on their minds and wanted to use the problems of the Russian state to expand their possessions at the expense of the Russian North and the Baltic states. Secondly, the military alliance between Shuisky and Charles IX led to a sharp deterioration in relations with Poland, which was only looking for a pretext to begin open intervention. Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth received a reason for open invasion.

Tsar Vasili counted on the help of the Swedish army well trained and battle-hardened. However, King Charles IX, not wanting to throw his regiments into the fire, sent a detachment of mercenaries to 7 thousands of people (Germans, Swedes, French, British, Scots and others) under the command of Frenchman Jacob Delagardi (Earl of Jacob Pontus de la Gardi). Swedish recruiters quickly recruited mercenaries in a constantly fighting Europe, loaded ships and quickly shipped to Russia, translating to the maintenance of the Moscow tsar. The first squads arrived on Russian territory in early March, and in Novgorod - on April 14 of the year 1609. Soon, the number of auxiliary Swedish corps was brought to 15 thousand fighters. The cost of maintaining the mercenary troops fell on the shoulders of the Moscow government. The cavalrymen were supposed to pay 25 thalers (efimkov), infantrymen - 12 thalers, "big voivods" - 5000 thalers, voivods - 4000 thalers. The mercenaries immediately demanded a salary, and the Russian voivode frantically corresponded with the king and the cities in order to collect at least some money.

Skopin-Shuisky campaign: battles near Torzhok, Tver and Kalyazin

Skopin-Shuisky meets the Swedish governor Delagardi near Novgorod

Skopin-Shuisky offensive

Delagardi planned to start a “war of sieges” - taking the outskirts of Pskov, Ivangorod, Yam, Koporye, etc., to the swearing-up Dmitry, in turn. Such a war was beneficial to the mercenaries and the Swedes: it made it possible to plunder, which they always did in European wars, their service would be delayed for a long time, which led to an increase in payments. But problems with the maintenance of the army would give the Swedes the opportunity to present Moscow with new territorial claims. Skopin was not satisfied with such a war, he demanded a campaign against Moscow, in a decisive battle to smash the Tushino thief himself and his hetmans. Victory in the battle immediately destroyed the entire "Tushino Russia" - with the imperial king, the Boyar Duma, the patriarchy, deprived the base of Polish troops, scattered around the Russian kingdom.

In May 1609, the Skopin-Shuisky militia, together with the mercenary army, launched an offensive, marching from Novgorod to Moscow. In early May, the Russian-Swedish 3-4 thousand avant-garde, led by Fyodor Chulkov and Evert Gorn, marched from Novgorod to clear the road to Torzhok for the main army. Under their onslaught, a detachment of Polish hussars of Kernozitsky left Old Russa without a fight, which the allies occupied on May 10. After that, the Poles tried to make a sudden raid, but were repulsed. In his time, Delagardi served in the Netherlands with Moritz of Orange and trained his soldiers in his innovations. Polish hussars stumbled upon the German infantry, bristling with spears, and the musketeers from behind the cover struck the enemy with fire. Then the Russian and Germans overturned the Poles with a counterattack, and Chulkov’s noble cavalry completed the defeat. At the same time, the regiment under the command of Nikita Vysheslavtsev, with the support of the local population, beat off Yaroslavl. The Russian-Swedish squad continued the attack and approached Toropets.

May 15 held the Battle of Toropets. The Russian-Swedish squad caught the Poles and Cossacks of Kernozitsky by surprise (about 6 thousand people). At the first blow of Gorna's armored infantry, the army of Kernozitsky fled, and the noble cavalry of Fyodor Chulkov completed the rout of the enemy. With the remnants of the detachment Kernositsky tried to gain a foothold behind the walls of the nearby Trinity Nebina monastery, but was attacked and knocked out of it. The Tushyntsi, having abandoned artillery, fled from Toropts, who immediately “rebelled” from the “Tushinsky thief”.

Thus, the advanced forces of the impostor in the north were crushed. After the capture of the Russian-Swedish detachment Toroptsa began a chain reaction. Torzhok, Staritsa, Ostashkov, Rzhev, Zubtsov, Kholm, Nevel and other northwestern Russian cities were “deposited” from False Dmitry II. The North was liberated from the Tushians, and the army of Skopin-Shuisky and Delagardi covered their right strategic flank.


Mikhail Skopin-Shuisky at the Monument "1000 Anniversary of Russia" in Veliky Novgorod

Swedish military and statesman Jacob Pontusson Delagardi

Fighting near Moscow. Getman Rozhinsky 5 June 1609 was again tried to seize Moscow. His cavalry crossed the river. Khodynka and attacked Moscow. But the Russian cavalry rang out to the sides, and the “Pole-town” walked in front of the Poles with cannons that struck with accurate fire. And when the enemy regrouped and abandoned the infantry to storm the fortifications, Russian cavalry piled up from the flanks. Tushintsy was overturned, pursued and driven into Khodinka, killing more than 400 people. From the final defeat of Rozhinsky was saved by ataman Zarutsky, who, with several hundred Cossacks, took a comfortable position on the Khimka River and stopped the Moscow cavalry with a counterattack. 25 June was followed by another assault, and again with no success. The Russians seized several guns, and some of the retreating enemies were cut off and pressed against the Moscow River, many were drowned.

Battle of Torzhok (June 17). After Chulkov and Gorna’s vanguard defeated an enemy detachment in the Battle of Toropets, the Russian-Swedish army marched from Novgorod and moved to Torzhok. The strategically important city itself was already “laid aside” from the impostor, and the fortress was occupied by the vanguard detachments of Kornily Cheglokov, Klaus Boy and Otto Helmer, so the warriors Semen Golovin and Evert Gorn joined them (about 5 thousand people).

At the same time, the Tushinois were pushing forces to Torzhok in order to stop the advance of the army of Skopin. 13-thousand army Tushinites consisted of 8-thousandth squad Kernozitskogo (2 thousand Polish hussars and 6 thousand Cossacks and Tushinites), 2 thousand. Polish lancers Pan Zborowski, 1 thousand. Cavalry detachment under the command of Tushino magistrates Gregory Shakhovsky and 2 thousand soldiers from other Polish regiments. However, at the time of the battle near Torzhok, the Tushians managed to concentrate less than half of their troops.

Alexander Zborovsky, who led the troops of the interventionists, tried to immediately take the city, but could not do it. The garrison repelled the attack. The attackers set fire to the Kremlin, but managed to put out the walls. Meanwhile, a detachment of Golovin and Horn approached the garrison. After that, the troops lined up against each other in battle formations. Zborovsky began the battle of a massive heavy armor-mounted cavalry. Part of the Polish cavalry ran into a deep phalanx of German mercenaries, bristling with long spears, and was forced to retreat, suffering heavy losses. However, part of the attacking Poles managed to crush the Russian and Swedish cavalry on the flank, and drove her to the city walls. But the successful sortie from the city of the Cheglokov squad restored the situation. Russian-Swedish cavalry, together with reinforcements, launched a counterattack. Tushyntsy were forced to retreat. In addition, Zborowski learned from the prisoners about the approach of a large army of Skopin and Delagardi and chose to withdraw to Tver in order to gather all the available forces to repel the enemy.

Thus, tushintsy suffered a serious defeat. Zborovsky could not take Torzhok and stop the movement of Skopin’s army. Poles suffered serious losses. It became obvious that a well-organized and armed Skopin-Shuisky and Delagardi army was able to withstand the heavy Polish cavalry in a field battle. In the Tushino camp they became worried and large reinforcements were sent to help Zborovsky near Tver. After the victory near Torzhok, detachments of servicemen from Smolensk, Vyazma, Toropts, Belaya and other western cities joined Skopin. So, Prince Yakov Baryatinsky, sent by voivod Michael Shein, came from Smolensk with 4 thousand warriors, on the way he freed Dorogobuzh, Vyazma and Belaya from Tushino.

Tver battle

The Russian commander Skopin-Shuisky insisted on a speedy continuation of the offensive, until the enemy received reinforcements. The following regiments were formed in Torzhok: the Watchdog Regiment under the command of J. Baryatinsky, the Forward Regiment S. Golovin and the Big Regiment of Skopin-Shuysky and Delagardi. The Russian-Swedish army numbered about 18 thousand people. Poles and Tushins were about 9 thousand people, the basis of the troops were 5 thousand horse Zborovsky detachment.

7-8 July, the Russian-Swedish army came from Torzhok, and July 11 approached Tver and camped 10 versts from it. Tushino army took up a fortified position. Skopin tried to lure the enemy to an open place with small cavalry units, but without success. Then on July 11 he launched an offensive: in the center stood the Swedish and German infantry, on the left flank - the French and German cavalry, and on the right - Russian. It was planned to divert the enemy with blows from the left flank, then with a powerful blow from the right flank to cut him off from the city, press him to the Volga and destroy him.

In the pouring rain, the army of Skopin attacked the Polish army of Pan Zborowski on the outskirts of Tver. However, the Russians and the mercenaries acted separately and could not organize a single blow. The Poles managed to strike ahead and knocked over the horseback of the Delagardi. The French and German cavalry turned to stampede, suffering heavy losses. Mercenaries, having decided that this defeat rushed into the camp, to rob property. The Swedes defended their good, the commotion began. But infantry in the center, despite heavy rain, which prevented the use of firearms weapon, repelled the enemy attack. Withstood the Polish attack and the Russian cavalry. By 19, the battle was over and the Tushians returned for fortifications. Skopin's troops moved over the Volga. Thus, the Tushians, despite their initial success, could not achieve a radical change in the battle.

In the camp, the Tushins already celebrated their victory, believing that they had repelled the offensive of the enemy army, but they rejoiced early. The young voivod Shuisky, who had skillfully regrouped his forces, struck 13 July under cover of night with a sudden blow to the enemy. Russians and Swedes broke into the enemy camp. After fierce logging, the Poles flinch and fled. The Allied army captured the Tushinsky camp and big booty: “They beat the Polish and Lithuanian people, and they took the camps, and besieged Tver. And near Tver, Russian and German people made a lot of wealth from the Polish people. ”(“ The Tale of the Victories of the Moscow Kingdom ”). The Polish army suffered heavy losses, Pan Zborowski (he was badly wounded in the battle) and his remnants fled to the Tushinsky camp, pursued by Skopin-Shuysky's light cavalry.

However, after this decisive victory, difficulties began. Skopin led a part of the army to Moscow. Delagardi himself did not burn with the desire to continue the march on Moscow, but preferred to limit himself to the defense of the Novgorod land. The Polish garrison of Mr. Krasovsky and Delagardi's mercenaries remained at the fortress in Tver. Delagardi made several attempts to assault Tver, but without success. The mercenaries suffered heavy losses in the battle of Tver and during the assault, rebelled, demanding a salary, and, without receiving any money, turned back. The deserters moved first to Torzhok, and then to Valdai. On the way, marauders robbed the local population, raped women and girls. Only a small part of the Swedish troops headed by Delagardi remained (just over 1 thousand fighters). Skopin-Shuisky, with only a few thousand Russian warriors, was forced to abandon the attack on Moscow and begin to form a new army.

Battle of Kalyazin

Abandoned by the mercenaries, the voivode Skopin-Shuisky did not take the direct route occupied by the Tushins to Moscow, but turned to Kalyazin. Having crossed the Volga, the Skopin-Shuisky army approached Kalyazin. Here, at the Trinity Makaryev Monastery, over the next two months, a new army was formed, which was reinforced by militias from Yaroslavl, Kostroma, Uglich, Kashin and other cities. Skopin-Shuisky sent messengers to all the neighboring cities, calling to send him additional troops, as well as money. As a result, by August, according to various sources, the Skopin army increased to 11-20 thousand people.

Of the Delagardi army, initially only the Swedes under the leadership of Christer Somme remained with Shuisky (about 1 thousand soldiers). The majority of the army consisted of peasants, Skopin-Shuisky attracted Somme to guide the military training of the militia in the Dutch style and later wrote to Delagardi that without Somme he could hardly have trained many untrained people who had flown to him from Yaroslavl, Kostroma and Pomorye every day. Militiamen were taught the tactics of Orange: formation, alignment of units, combination of defense with long spears and rifle fire. After all, the Russian warriors, like the Dutch, needed to withstand the blows of knightly cavalry and heavy armored infantry. Kalyazin actually became for a short time the military-political center of the Russian kingdom.

Meanwhile, the Polish hetman Jan Sapega, who during this period continued to besiege the Trinity-Sergius Monastery, decided to eliminate the growing threat from the army of Skopin-Shuisky and the first to attack the enemy. 12-thousandth detachment of Jan Sapega left the siege of the Trinity-Sergius Lavra (part of the troops remained to block the monastery) and went to join Zborovsky, speaking from Tushin with Zaporizhia and Don Cossacks. The number of the combined troops was not inferior to that which Skopin-Shuisky had assembled. Among the Poles, the main part of the army was cavalry, and in Skopin, infantry.

28 August 1609 near the Trinity Makaryev monastery, the Kalyazin battle began. The Russian cavalry, with a mock retreat, lured the vanguard of the enemy to a swampy part of the bank of the Zhabni River. After that, the Russian cavalry from two sides attacked the enemy. Tushinskis could not turn around, were disorganized and suffered great losses. The remnants of the squad ran to their. And the Russian troops left behind Zhabnya in a fortified camp near the crossing of the Volga.

The main forces of the Tushins, furious with the defeat of the vanguard, attacked the Russian camp. Skopin-Shuisky was able to compensate for the shortage of cavalry troops by previously prepared fortifications and properly chosen defensive tactics. The attack of the Polish and Cossack troops was stopped by Russian field fortifications, where the enemy cavalry fell under heavy food fire. Then the Poles began to make demonstrations, rolling and pretending to get away to lure the Russians because of the fortifications. But they did not peck and did not leave the shelters. Then the Polish command again changed tactics. However, an attempt to break into the Skopin-Shuisky camp as a result of an unexpected strike from the side of the Zhabni River was foreseen by Skopina-Shuisky. Russian troops met the attackers and as a result of the seven-hour battle they won up. When tushintsy were tired and bloodless fruitless attacks, Skopin launched a counter-offensive. The tired Tushins began to retreat behind Zhabnya. Inspired by the warriors of Shuisky, they increased their pressure, Sapieha’s troops reached the wagons and continued to push them further. Tushyntsy could not stand it and ran on the way to Uglich. They were chased throughout the 15 version. Broken regiments of Sapieha returned to the Trinity-Sergius Monastery.



Thus, the Russian army, prepared and organized by Skopin-Shuisky on the Western model, independently won a brilliant victory over the Tushins (professional Polish and Cossack cavalry) without the help of the Swedes and foreign mercenaries. The rumor about the victory spread widely across Russia. Skopin received great prestige among the people.

But before the victory was still far away. A Crimean horde led by Tsarevich Janibek appeared on the southern frontiers. Tsar Vasily Shuisky also turned to Khan for help, and informed that the Crimean Tatars were going as allies. However, the Crimean Tatars did not intend to fight the professional cavalry of the Poles and the “thieves” Cossacks, but pogroms Tarusa, destroyed the environs of Serpukhov, Kolomna, Borovsk - and left, stealing full. And the people cursed Shuisky for such "allies."

The Russian army remained at Kalyazin for about a month, continuing to build up its forces and sending troops to liberate individual cities and to support the Trinity-Sergius Monastery. With the funds sent by the monasteries and merchants, Skopin-Shuisky again attracted the mercenaries of Delagardi to his army, not wanting to leave them without control in their rear. In the fall, the Russian army moved east and took Pereslavl-Zalessky, after which they also managed to take the Alexander settlement. Thus, the armies of Shuisky and Sapieha became close again.

To be continued ...
Author:
Articles from this series:
Troubles

Folk hero Kuzma Minin and Smoot
How the False Dmitry I was killed
How suppressed the uprising Bolotnikov
How the False Dmitry II tried to take Moscow
The ruin of the Russian land. Heroic defense of the Trinity Monastery of St. Sergius
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  1. parusnik
    parusnik 14 July 2016 07: 23
    +6
    Mikhail Skopin-Shuisky, a talented military leader .. It’s a pity, they poisoned their own ..
    1. xan
      xan 14 July 2016 14: 44
      -2
      Quote: parusnik
      Mikhail Skopin-Shuisky, a talented military leader .. It’s a pity, they poisoned their own ..

      For those who believe that before Peter 1 the Russian army fought excellently, read 50 times and draw a conclusion.
  2. Pavel1
    Pavel1 14 July 2016 08: 11
    +3
    "Swedish voivode De la Gardie"
    this is VOEVODA, what is Swedish?
    1. V.ic
      V.ic 14 July 2016 08: 45
      +6
      Quote: Paul1
      "Swedish voivode De la Gardie"
      this is VOEVODA, what is Swedish?

      Governor = inev / warriors watersit. Your comments in legal terms are null and void. Even a goat understands / and a hedgehog too / what is being said.
      By the way, somewhere in the expanses of the Runet, the thought slipped through that in the 15-16 centuries the oath of allegiance to the king in Sweden sounded in Russian. Information more than two years ago, so I can’t give out the link.
      On the other hand, how can a Russian man be called in his native language the foreign mercenary who led his subordinates? Issue your version if it does not bother you. You have the right!
      1. Pavel1
        Pavel1 14 July 2016 09: 24
        -6
        Quote: V.ic
        Your comments in legal terms are null and void.


        well, yours speaking not in the Jurassic, but in Russian-stupid ...

        Quote: V.ic
        Even a goat understands / and a hedgehog too / what is being said.


        Of course, the goats are more visible ...
        Quote: V.ic
        By the way, somewhere in the expanses of the Runet, the thought slipped through that in the 15-16 centuries the oath of allegiance to the king in Sweden sounded in Russian.

        all sorts of nonsense in one post
        not in 15-16c, and not "an oath to the king", but at the end of 17c, a CRYING SPEECH at the funeral of Karl11 in Russian, which is extremely strange ...

        Quote: V.ic
        On the other hand, how can a Russian man be called in his native language the foreign mercenary who led his subordinates?

        phew. Well, what's the name of the imported warlords? do not know? The general, admiral, marshal, but VOEVODA is in Russian.

        Quote: V.ic
        Issue your version if it does not bother you. You have the right!


        do you allow
        and the version is such that all these wars 16-17v are wars for the RUSSIAN CROWN and they were fought between members of the ONE FAMILY. All these Vases, Girei, Swedish Vases, as well as the Rurikovich type are all relatives of the same royal family and all had the right to the Russian throne, and therefore climbed on it with manic perseverance. Russia in those days was a huge EMPIRE from Europe, to Japan and America, and naturally, the main language of communication was RUSSIAN. And the religion was the already crumbling VEDIC RELIGION and the AVRAMIC-Christian, Jewish, Islamic religion advancing on it, with all the dozens of different cults and sects originating at that time. Hence the constant redivision of worldview and property, constant wars that will last 300 years.
        1. V.ic
          V.ic 14 July 2016 10: 32
          +3
          Quote: Paul1
          Well, your speaking not in the Jurassic, but in Russian-stupid ..

          If in Russian, then read for a start how these things are written exactly in Russiansacrifice EG ...
          Quote: Paul1
          the goats certainly know better ..

          If you got into the discussion, therefore, you are sure that you are "the best" and of course you know better, in your words.
          Quote: Paul1
          phew. Well, what's the name of the imported warlords? do not know? The general, admiral, marshal, but VOEVODA is in Russian.

          What didn’t suit you:
          Quote: V.ic
          Governor = howlingin / warriors indit
          ?
          As the moderator Alexander Romanov says on this resource, "you need to drink less and eat more." The rule is good, follow it!
          Quote: Paul1
          and the version is such that all these wars 16-17v are wars for the RUSSIAN CROWN and they were fought between members of the ONE FAMILY. Ets, ets, ets ..

          You "do not know" why you should not waste your nerves in discussions with sectarians? Because they don't give a damn about reasonable arguments if their guru / mentor has a different point of view from the opponent. Therefore, I am not going to comment on the delirium that you set forth in the quote I mentioned. It was not me who said: "do not throw beads before ...".
          Arguing with the Fomenkonos people is like trying to argue with Jehovah's Witnesses. DIXI.
          1. Pavel1
            Pavel1 14 July 2016 10: 55
            +1
            Quote: V.ic
            If in Russian, then first read how these things are written in Russian, the victim of EG ...


            if you have already climbed into a local pseudo-historical forum, then you don't have to bang your head against the wall. Thank God I didn't see him because I studied in a normal Soviet school, so I can still perceive facts and adequately reality. And the reality is that our history has been rewritten and not to please the Russian people, but p1b, as Klyosov says. I am giving you the beginning of the Radziwil chronicle. this is 10c, rewritten 15-16c. So here is "The Tale of Bygone Years of the Monastery of the Monastery Fedosyev of the Pechersk Monastery, Where the Rousse Land Came From". ROSKAYA -OU with the title reads like O. So there was no double C in the word RUSKY neither in our annals, nor in Dahl's dictionary of edition 19c !. Because double C is REVERSE READING from German, and Russian does not tend to double consonants unnecessarily.
            http://chronologia.org/rare/radzivil/index.html


            Quote: V.ic
            What didn’t suit you:

            what it is "your" also made me a discovery, the children know about it at school.

            Quote: V.ic
            As the moderator Alexander Romanov says on this resource, "you need to drink less and eat more." The rule is good, follow it!

            how silly it is to refer to Romanov when everyone knew this phrase before Romanov.
            Quote: V.ic
            It was not me who said: "do not throw beads before ...".


            yes, perhaps I won’t, it’s not for you ...
            1. Verdun
              Verdun 14 July 2016 11: 40
              +1
              Quote: Paul1
              yes, perhaps I won’t, it’s not for you ...

              And thank God that you will not. You must have messed up something. Topvar is not a linguistic site where one could argue about language problems and writing rules.
              1. Pavel1
                Pavel1 14 July 2016 12: 15
                -2
                Quote: Verdun
                And thank God that you will not. You must have messed up something. Topvar is not a linguistic site where one could argue about language problems and writing rules.


                what I said concerns inadequate for which two times two cannot be four because "everyone knows" that it is five. As for the field of word formation, such things are interesting to everyone, if you do not like it, you can stand up and cry in the corner.
                1. Verdun
                  Verdun 14 July 2016 12: 27
                  0
                  Quote: Paul1
                  As for the field of word formation, such things are interesting to everyone

                  They may be interesting, but, as a rule, they are completely unsubstantiated. Attempts to create history based on the language of a country where there are ten dialects for every hundred kilometers is utter folly. And this is not to mention the fact that the alphabet that we use today is imported. Now, if you tried to analyze the history of Russia on the basis of cuneiform texts, it would be worthy and interesting. And so ... Today "coffee" - it, and tomorrow "it". There is only one shaking of air ... A man wrote an article about battles, and you start a dispute about terminology, and the dispute is rather dubious.
                  1. Pavel1
                    Pavel1 14 July 2016 12: 34
                    -4
                    Quote: Verdun
                    . Attempts to create a story based on the language of a country where for every hundred kilometers - a dozen dialects - utter stupidity.


                    Well, where is that "ten dialects per hundred kilometers"? AND? Are you chatting?

                    man about battles wrote an article

                    don’t worry so much about Samsonov, he has never objected as far as the topic is concerned, it’s zero, nobody is interested in this your traditional story, because not even the insiders see that there are stretches, distortions and basically any lie that says the number involved in the discussion. TI dies. Therefore, it’s better to talk about the latest, about new research, since there are good ones. You have posted a video about the strangeness of drawings in Siberian open spaces about which historians and geographers do not write.
                    1. Verdun
                      Verdun 14 July 2016 12: 48
                      0
                      Quote: Paul1
                      Well, where is that "ten dialects per hundred kilometers"? AND? Are you chatting?

                      If you do not travel outside the Moscow region, these are your problems. And at the time in question, even a general grammar did not exist yet. You read the documents of that time. everyone writes as he understands. Even in the notorious "Chronicle of Bygone Years" there are excerpts with different stylistic and grammatical spellings, which gives reason to regard this literary opus not as a real document, but as a kind of historical compilation.
                      There you have a man posted a movie about the strangeness of drawings in Siberian open spaces about which historians and geographers do not write.
                      It so happened that I have quite a lot of friends who travel and live in the vastness of Siberia. he himself, alas, until he got there. But all these acquaintances, people who are quite educated - geologists, archaeologists, local historians - unanimously say the same thing. Yes, there are plenty of mysteries in Siberia. But they have nothing to do with those "sensations" that constantly strive to bring out on public display magazines and pseudo-historians, like Nosovsky with Fomenko, Bushkov and others like them ... Science should be dealt with, not its imitation.
                      1. Pavel1
                        Pavel1 14 July 2016 12: 54
                        +1
                        Quote: Verdun
                        Science must be dealt with, not its imitation.


                        you are a boring person, just words ...
                      2. Verdun
                        Verdun 14 July 2016 13: 00
                        0
                        Quote: Paul1
                        you are a boring person, just words ...

                        Words alone are with you. Because there is nothing to object to the case. You are one of those, excuse me, who comes to the site not to argue, but to bicker.
                      3. Pavel1
                        Pavel1 14 July 2016 13: 09
                        -1
                        Quote: Verdun
                        You are one of those, excuse me, who comes to the site not to argue, but to bicker.


                        joke, you are so high you don’t bully that, you might think you have something to say, one chatter laughing
  3. PKK
    PKK 14 July 2016 19: 20
    +1
    Someone would take and prove that in those days there were horses, or thoroughbred horses, otherwise Igor Grek proved that horses were brought from America in the 17th century, and there is no reason not to believe him, there are too many strange documents about horses. in the 17th century in St. Petersburg, horses were not fed oats and horses were dead. The horse eats 15 kg of oats per day, it carries 100 kg, for how many days can the horse take food with him? As a rule, they did not go for more than two days. mostly traveled along the rivers. If there was an Army, then the invasion fleet was to it. And the authors often miss such trifles. Well, there is no trust in such complicated articles.
    1. Verdun
      Verdun 15 July 2016 21: 02
      0
      Quote: PKK
      Whoever would have taken and proved that in those days there were horses, or thoroughbred horses.

      And what is there to actually prove? It is clear that over time, many old breeds have given way to modern ones. But until now, Arab thoroughbred and Akhal-Teke horses are world-famous.
      The Arabian horse (today also called the Arabian thoroughbred horse) - an ancient breed of riding horses, bred on the territory of the Arabian Peninsula in the IV-VII centuries of our era
      и
      Akhal-teke horse, or Akhal-teke (Turk. Ahal-teke aty), is a horse breed that was bred on the territory of modern Turkmenistan (Akhal-Teke), supposedly about 5000 years ago.
      At the same time, genetic tests confirm this, excavations, too. What about
      And then Igor Grek proved that horses were brought from America in the 17th century.
      then nothing that during the ice age horses in America became extinct and were brought back there again by the Europeans?
  • Alexey-74
    Alexey-74 14 July 2016 09: 42
    +1
    Thanks to the author. Yes, difficult times in Russia were at the beginning of the 17th century ..... (internal hostility, intervention) the state was in a fever
  • Mengad
    Mengad 14 July 2016 11: 07
    0
    You can argue as much as you want, but in connection with the latest data on Tartari, something I begin to doubt the so-called interpretation of our history written by our so-called academicians of history. And there are reasons. And if anyone disagrees? Then be patient and just type the word “Tartaria maps” on Google. Now there is more and more information on Tartaria more and more people have become more attentive and began to notice what they did not notice or did not want to see before. This is the person who shot the video from the plane while flying. Siberia wasn’t mastered? Something I really doubt, and according to the information I have collected, I have some reason. And before you put a minus, learn to read between the lines, it's like 2 + 2 = fish.
    1. Pavel1
      Pavel1 14 July 2016 11: 21
      +2
      Quote: Mengad
      .Here a person was shooting a video from an airplane while flying. Was Siberia not mastered? Something I really doubt, and according to the information I have collected, I have some reason. Before you put a minus, learn to read between the lines, it's like 2 + 2 =


      you yourself would somehow comment on this video, what is there to pay attention to?
      1. Mengad
        Mengad 14 July 2016 12: 09
        +1
        There, the person increases the zoom and this is noticeable, and even if you look closely, you can see too straight horizontal and vertical lines with which it is possible to guess. Yes, I understand that this video does little, but unfortunately we don’t see anything else when we are standing on the ground, often there is an old monument nearby, but we don’t have a clue about it. We know what climate is in Siberia. And what are the living conditions there. I don’t think that most of them built stone buildings, most likely adapted some stone formations for Unfortunately, you won’t notice this on Google’s satellite map, Google’s map has been cleaned for at least 5 years now, so you have to look at the information bit by bit. Can this person be wrong? Of course, maybe he understands this. He who does nothing is not mistaken.
        1. Pavel1
          Pavel1 14 July 2016 12: 22
          +3
          Quote: Mengad
          There, the person increases the zoom and this is noticeable, and even if you look closely, you can see too straight horizontal and vertical lines c with which this can only be guessed


          here, there is an opinion that TRANSSIB was mainly laid along these oldest roads, very flat and very long. These are the most direct lines, you can see not only in Siberia, but these lines are in Australia, in Africa in the Sahara, in China has very strange absolutely direct channels that stretch for hundreds of kilometers. With Google, you can now look for places on earth where such straight lines can be seen from space.
  • Cartalon
    Cartalon 14 July 2016 12: 09
    +1
    Interpretation, thanks, comments as always deliver, for the announcement of Gustav vases as his relative, Ivan Vasilievich would have welded alive.
  • Mengad
    Mengad 14 July 2016 12: 44
    0
    Quote: Verdun
    Quote: Paul1
    yes, perhaps I won’t, it’s not for you ...

    And thank God that you will not. You must have messed up something. Topvar is not a linguistic site where one could argue about language problems and writing rules.

    I’ll put you a minus and you know why? I’ll explain: we read Wiki: Linguistics (linguistics, linguistics; from lat. lingua - language) - a science that studies languages. (I emphasize the important), Please tell me after the language reforms that took place in Russia after the way Nikon, Lunacharsky, etc. too, the meaning of the words has changed? I will give you an example like a simple word, immortal, what does this word mean in your understanding? Well, probably someone or something does not have death, right? But then, according to the logic of things, it should be written as WITHOUT -root-mortal, and now consider the second option that you think is right and the operation says you are ignorant. laughing What do you think is right? the word ,, Immortal ,, Demon-root so? and what does Demon mean in your and our understanding? The devil, hell, Evil, and what do we get? but we get the meaning of the word Damn, demon, mortal evil!? Funny? Still need to give examples with the root Without?
    1. Pavel1
      Pavel1 14 July 2016 12: 57
      +2
      Quote: Mengad
      I'll put you a minus and you know why? Ob


      I also set a minus for you, for diplomatic reasons, as if you had gone to the wrong steppe ...
  • Mengad
    Mengad 14 July 2016 12: 56
    0
    Quote: Paul1
    Quote: Mengad
    There, the person increases the zoom and this is noticeable, and even if you look closely, you can see too straight horizontal and vertical lines c with which this can only be guessed


    here, there is an opinion that TRANSSIB was mainly laid along these oldest roads, very flat and very long. These are the most direct lines, you can see not only in Siberia, but these lines are in Australia, in Africa in the Sahara, in China has very strange absolutely direct channels that stretch for hundreds of kilometers. With Google, you can now look for places on earth where such straight lines can be seen from space.

    Everything is possible, I proceed from the fact that people used to trade in large caravans, Let us recall the Silk Road. But caravans with goods led not dozens, hundreds of loaded ones, horses, camels or other transport. And the caravans went for months or even years, it means there were a lot of them on this path and the path was more or less known and safe and verified. Which in turn could really lead to clearing the site or road in one way or another over time. "It's like laying sidewalk paths in a residential area smileyou don’t have to lay down sidewalk paths right away, first let people walk around and they will lay paths where it’s convenient for them to walk smile
    1. Pavel1
      Pavel1 14 July 2016 13: 07
      +2
      Quote: Mengad
      Anything can be, I proceed from the fact that people used to drive large caravans when trading. Recall the Silk Road


      recent researches - Tyunyaev say that the famous "Silk Road" is most likely a fiction, because in Russian forests there is always such a phenomenon as the PEST OF FORESTS - SILKOPRYAD. This is such a caterpillar, a relative of the silkworm, which also weaves silk cocoons and with which silk fabrics can be made, and so, in the Russian forests of such a pest in bulk. Therefore, the writings of Marco Polo about the journey to China acquire a new sound, and the Silk Road is the way from Russia to Europe. And it is actually correct, you can go crazy to lead caravans from "China" to Europe on dry land ...
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  • Mengad
    Mengad 14 July 2016 13: 41
    0
    Quote: Paul1
    Quote: Mengad
    Anything can be, I proceed from the fact that people used to drive large caravans when trading. Recall the Silk Road


    recent researches - Tyunyaev say that the famous "Silk Road" is most likely a fiction, because in Russian forests there is always such a phenomenon as the PEST OF FORESTS - SILKOPRYAD. This is such a caterpillar, a relative of the silkworm, which also weaves silk cocoons and with which silk fabrics can be made, and so, in the Russian forests of such a pest in bulk. Therefore, the writings of Marco Polo about the journey to China acquire a new sound, and the Silk Road is the way from Russia to Europe. And it is actually correct, you can go crazy to lead caravans from "China" to Europe on dry land ...

    I found an interesting thing, a piece of the map on it is marked in Latin, but there is still an approximate translation, I think you will read it says that locals know how to make a thin thread and it doesn’t burn. Pay attention to the word Cathay on the left, in tune with ... China smile
    1. Pavel1
      Pavel1 14 July 2016 13: 54
      +1
      Quote: Mengad
      read it says that local people know how to make a thin thread and it does not burn


      a famous phenomenon is asbestos ...
  • Mengad
    Mengad 14 July 2016 14: 01
    0
    Quote: Paul1
    Quote: Mengad
    read it says that local people know how to make a thin thread and it does not burn


    a famous phenomenon is asbestos ...

    I mean, if you look at where the silkworm lives, and it lives in Siberia, it is quite possible that the same silk could be made in Siberia on the grounds that there was even a technology for producing yarn from mountain linen.
  • Mengad
    Mengad 14 July 2016 14: 17
    0
    Quote: Verdun
    It so happened that I have quite a lot of friends who travel and live in the vastness of Siberia. he himself, alas, until he got there. But all these acquaintances, people who are quite educated - geologists, archaeologists, local historians - unanimously say the same thing. Yes, there are plenty of mysteries in Siberia. But they have nothing to do with those "sensations" that constantly strive to bring out on public display magazines and pseudo-historians, like Nosovsky with Fomenko, Bushkov and others like them ... Science should be dealt with, not its imitation.

    Let me highlight a few points from your ode: ,,educated people(this is when the teacher said that this is so? that means it is) - geologists, archaeologists, local historians - unanimously say the same thing.(the result of cramming mantras at school) laughing ,, But they do not have nothing in common with those "sensations" (you yourself understood what you said?), pseudo-history,, (On what basis do you judge people? A pseudo-historian-person who does not do his own business? So what?) It would be more accurate to say that these are people who are looking for the truth of our ancestors, their ancestors to which they have the RIGHT! hide, change, distort for the sake of the power of the history of our ancestors who have a history. So the term pseudo is still a question to whom to hang wink
    1. Pavel1
      Pavel1 14 July 2016 14: 41
      +2
      Quote: Mengad
      pseudo-historian-man is not doing his own business? so what?


      everything is so if "true historians" do not search for the truth, then other people have to do it, mathematicians, chemists, materials scientists, engineers, surveyors, art historians, it is they who will be engaged in historical investigations ...
  • Mengad
    Mengad 14 July 2016 14: 51
    0
    Quote: Paul1
    Quote: Mengad
    pseudo-historian-man is not doing his own business? so what?


    everything is so if "true historians" do not search for the truth, then other people have to do it, mathematicians, chemists, materials scientists, engineers, surveyors, art historians, it is they who will be engaged in historical investigations ...

    I completely agree with you, historians have long discriminated against themselves, so we have to look for the truth ourselves.
    1. Pavel1
      Pavel1 14 July 2016 15: 17
      +1
      Quote: Mengad
      I completely agree with you, historians have long discriminated against themselves, so we have to look for the truth ourselves.


      discredited
      for example, there is such a "Russian" academician from linguistics Zaliznyak, and so there is no more terry reactionary. Everything that concerns progress in the rehabilitation of the history of the Russian people is contrary to this academician. He was noted for "criticism" both in relation to the New Chronology and in relation to the analysis of the Veles book, and his pearls like that - "the Russian people with a history is an extremist" are no longer just outrageous, but much worse - this is simply a worthy successor of Milerabaerashlötser ...
  • Mengad
    Mengad 14 July 2016 15: 41
    -1
    Quote: Paul1
    Quote: Mengad
    I completely agree with you, historians have long discriminated against themselves, so we have to look for the truth ourselves.


    discredited
    for example, there is such a "Russian" academician from linguistics Zaliznyak, and so there is no more terry reactionary. Everything that concerns progress in the rehabilitation of the history of the Russian people is contrary to this academician. He was noted for "criticism" both in relation to the New Chronology and in relation to the analysis of the Veles book, and his pearls like that - "the Russian people with a history is an extremist" are no longer just outrageous, but much worse - this is simply a worthy successor of Milerabaerashlötser ...

    Yes, I heard about him, but I heard from Goblin-Puchkov with his invited pseudo-historians. Zhukov and Ilyin ... and one of them referred to this Zaliznyak. They say such nonsense that you are amazed. They are rude and scoffed and these people like them smile Those who like them obviously don’t understand that they are laughing at those who like (people hawks) because they are ignorant and hang noodles on their ears laughing I do not think that Ilyin and Zhukov do not know about Tartaria.
    1. Pavel1
      Pavel1 14 July 2016 16: 05
      0
      Quote: Mengad
      Yes, I heard about him, but I heard from Goblin-Puchkov with his invited pseudo-historians. Zhukov and Ilyin ... and


      All these semi-underground Internet transmissions with clowns in the main role are just the answer of those in power, those for whom the previous generations of German "historians" actually tried, for whom they built this matrix. There is a completely academic science, but thanks to the efforts of Fomenko Nosovsky, Klyosov and other true scientists, the works that can be verified, it is shaken and ordinary people who studied from textbooks and did not see the original sources began to doubt the truth of this "academic", therefore it was necessary to create stupid low-grade phrasebook for vile people to keep them on track. the lie still continues its dirty work, the information war.
  • Mengad
    Mengad 14 July 2016 16: 14
    -1
    Quote: Paul1
    Quote: Mengad
    Yes, I heard about him, but I heard from Goblin-Puchkov with his invited pseudo-historians. Zhukov and Ilyin ... and


    All these semi-underground Internet transmissions with clowns in the main role are just the answer of those in power, those for whom the previous generations of German "historians" actually tried, for whom they built this matrix. There is a completely academic science, but thanks to the efforts of Fomenko Nosovsky, Klyosov and other true scientists, the works that can be verified, it is shaken and ordinary people who studied from textbooks and did not see the original sources began to doubt the truth of this "academic", therefore it was necessary to create stupid low-grade phrasebook for vile people to keep them on track. the lie still continues its dirty work, the information war.

    Let's hope that people will still open their eyes and turn on their brain. But unfortunately, judging by the writings of some adult people who care about authority and a piece of paper with the words, “academician,” little will change until they understand that the authority for them is only Mom and Dad.
  • Mengad
    Mengad 14 July 2016 17: 46
    0
    Quote: V.ic
    Quote: Paul1
    "Swedish voivode De la Gardie"
    this is VOEVODA, what is Swedish?

    Governor = inev / warriors watersit. Your comments in legal terms are null and void. Even a goat understands / and a hedgehog too / what is being said.
    By the way, somewhere in the expanses of the Runet, the thought slipped through that in the 15-16 centuries the oath of allegiance to the king in Sweden sounded in Russian. Information more than two years ago, so I can’t give out the link.
    On the other hand, how can a Russian man be called in his native language the foreign mercenary who led his subordinates? Issue your version if it does not bother you. You have the right!

    For the especially gifted Voivode, this is an analogue of the governor in modern times. In peacetime, he rules and in military takes the functions of a military leader.
    1. Pavel1
      Pavel1 14 July 2016 18: 36
      +1
      Quote: Mengad
      For the especially gifted Voivode, this is an analogue of the governor in modern times. In peacetime, he rules and in military takes the functions of a military leader.


      it may have been so before, but war is still an art and just like art, it must be understood by professional people, therefore there is one thing to be a politician, and another to be a commander.
  • Cat
    Cat 14 July 2016 21: 38
    0
    In the scientific community there is a saying: a teacher of logic can teach philosophy, and a teacher of philosophy does not always carry on logic.
    I will give an example of one, but bright. M.I. Kutuzov was both a field marshal and governor general of the Kiev governor general. Continue to continue: Ermolin, Muravyov, Koufman and others.
    Now I list about the voivode: Romadanovsky, Shein, Sheremetyev, Apraskin. The latter managed to stay both as governor and governor, and in admiral's uniform.