Military Review

Syrian experience: is a second gun needed for a T-72?

132
Syrian experience: is a second gun needed for a T-72?


According to a number of military experts, an even more radical measure of empowerment tanks, would be the replacement of heavy machine guns with high-speed small-caliber guns. Such studies were carried out both in the West and in the USSR.



In modern Russia, this idea was returned to the creation of a new generation tank, known as the 195 Object. In addition to the most powerful 152-mm guns, it also had an 30-mm gun. There were also proposals to install 30-mm and T-90, however, in the metal this option, unfortunately, did not appear.

Already after the collapse of the Warsaw Pact, the Czechs began to carry out experiments on the installation of small-caliber guns on the T-series tanks. They created on the basis of the T-72 a modification of the “Modernity” of two variants: with two X-NUMX-mm anti-aircraft Oerlikon and one 20-mm 30-2.

A kind of development of Czech ideas was the design survey of engineers from the Slovenian company VALHALLA. They developed several options for upgrading the T-72 and M-84, as well as tanks of other models. Thus, in one of the options, a special module is mounted to the back of the tower, armed with a Bushmaster 25-mm gun or Rheinmetall Rh 20 202-mm gun, and the 23-mm 2-XXNXX can also be installed. In addition, this module is mounted machine gun caliber 14-mm and 7,62 / 30-mm automatic grenade launcher. Ammunition, depending on the type of gun: from 40 to 400 shots, 550 cartridges for machine guns and up to 1200 grenades. This combat module has a new aiming complex with a thermal imaging channel.



Another variant of the combat module can be armed with an 30-mm 2-42 gun, it can be replaced with a Rheinmetall of the same caliber or Zastava M86. There is also a 1 machine gun caliber 7,62-mm. Ammunition to 500 shots to the gun and 1400 cartridges for machine guns.

These combat modules greatly increase firepower and allow you to hit both ground and air targets.



These Slovenian proposals for upgrading old cars of the Cold War aroused some interest of visitors to the Eurosatory 2016 exhibition in Paris.
Originator:
http://vestnik-rm.ru/news-4-16753.htm
132 comments
Ad

Subscribe to our Telegram channel, daily additional materials that do not get on the site: https://t.me/topwar_ru

Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. PKK
    PKK 9 July 2016 05: 55
    +21
    The second gun is undoubtedly needed, and if it can also shoot at aircraft with automatic guidance, it’s fine at all. The commander will be given more work, but the strength of the tank and the possibilities will grow. Good thing.
    1. HERMES
      HERMES 9 July 2016 06: 22
      +14
      It's not a bad option to make a T-72 in the style of "Modern M2" ... but I think more of a rapid-fire machine gun is needed.

      An analogue of GAU-19A will do just fine .... it would be put on the T-72 "Gorod". The machine gun is powerful and rapid-fire ... with armor-piercing tape it will sew any wall and light armored vehicles of the enemy.


      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Cat man null
        Cat man null 9 July 2016 06: 48
        +28
        Quote: HERMES
        The analogue of the GAU-19A is the best fit ...

        Hm-hm ... Analogue GAU-19A ... We start to think:

        - caliber 12.7 (as in the regular cliff - Kord). That is a special gain in

        Quote: HERMES
        to sew any wall and light armored vehicles of the enemy

        we will not get
        - rate of 1000 - 2000 per minute
        - Kord’s ammunition on the T-90 is now 300 rounds. For half a minute this glutton is not enough belay
        - Where are we going to put the additional BC to the machine gun? It’s impossible to enter a tank, it is airtight by definition (no one has canceled the HLF yet)
        - outside? Hanging bags? It can be cool, like this:
        1. HERMES
          HERMES 9 July 2016 07: 23
          +16
          Quote: Cat Man Null
          we will not get
          - rate of 1000 - 2000 per minute
          - Kord’s ammunition on the T-90 is now 300 rounds. For half a minute this glutton is not enough
          - Where are we going to put the additional BC to the machine gun? It’s impossible to enter a tank, it is airtight by definition (no one has canceled the HLF yet)
          - outside? Hanging bags? It can be cool, like this:


          Well, in this case, the person who suggested putting 2A42 or an analogue on the tank will not be smarter than me)

          If it comes to that ... ideas to make a 100500 in one car never ended well. Attaching a Terminator to the tank ... with its two 2A42s ... the best option ... armor like a tank. RPG -7 will at least withstand.

          In general, the most delicious in the city
          this is Shilka ... has anyone seen how she works on buildings? An unforgettable sight.
          That's just the armor ...
          1. Cat man null
            Cat man null 9 July 2016 07: 32
            +7
            Quote: HERMES
            in this case, the person who proposed to put 2A42 or an analogue on the tank will not be smarter than me

            - But I personally did not blame you for anything ... the approach itself ... um ... is alarming, here yes

            Quote: HERMES
            Shilka ... how does it work on buildings?

            - I did not see. In my time, Shilkami did not "work" on buildings yet
            - on the target - yes, I saw. handsomely belay
            1. Bad_gr
              Bad_gr 9 July 2016 10: 50
              +2
              On the T-15, I expected to see a similar gun, but, unfortunately, it is not there sad

          2. Shark Lover
            Shark Lover 9 July 2016 07: 59
            +14
            A shilka in a city, a kishlak is a thing (as the character from "brother2" said about "Maxim". In kishlaks, a block porter, in a greenery, he cuts glades. , to fool the Basmachi and in the kpvt connected 4 tapes of 50 cartridges each, did not pull, I had to call the "annka" for filing.
            1. ty60
              ty60 10 July 2016 00: 29
              +4
              Cooled by your own crew then? Problem ...
          3. igor.borov775
            igor.borov775 9 July 2016 13: 05
            +10
            Quote: demiurg
            Quote: Kotischa
            I suggest going the other way. Who is the main enemy of the tank - aviation. Then, to a greater extent, our tanks need modules with small-sized vertical-launch missiles. Which work according to the scheme shot and forgot.


            And against the enemy artillery of the MLRS, preferably a tornado. Against the infantry a couple of mortars. Tighten a pair of surveillance radars to illuminate the tactical situation at 200km in the area. Airborne squad for platoon cover. Repair shop. Oh yes, the OTRK to smash the headquarters of enemies. And a nuclear reactor to increase autonomy. hi

            As well as a mobile dining room, a medical room, a swimming pool to relieve fatigue. A tank is a mobile fortress. Suspended as a Christmas tree with all sorts of missile defense and anti-missile systems, it will lose the main quality. Speed ​​and maneuver. This is a joke. But Syria showed that the barmalei are very well saturated with large-caliber machine guns and small-caliber artillery. Finishing them is problematic without artillery tanks and mortars. The author simply did not dig deep into the lessons of Syria., This is just one of the many problems of the combat use of troops. A probable adversary is also accumulating his own ways of solving such issues. We also solve such a problem without any aggravation. There is still time to solve this problem.
        2. Lopatov
          Lopatov 9 July 2016 07: 31
          +4
          Quote: Cat Man Null
          Kord's ammunition on the T-90 is now 300 rounds. For half a minute this glutton is not enough

          Looking for what.
          If the main task is to defeat the target, which the gunner does not have time to direct the main armament, then the density of fire, and not the size of the BC, comes to the fore. Because this is by default a fairly rare occurrence.

          But even here you have to think. It is possible that there are better solutions. For example, the Israeli version, with shooting from mortars for installing an aerosol curtain of special fragmentation ammunition. Or an option with the installation of analogs of MON-200, mowing the entire sector. Or the installation of an analogue installation, which the Germans tried to ensure the safety of the landing from the BMP "Puma"
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 9 July 2016 07: 42
            +2
            Launcher for shooting six 76-mm fragmentation grenades
        3. i80186
          i80186 9 July 2016 09: 01
          +4
          Quote: Cat Man Null
          - outside? Hanging bags? It can be cool, like this:

          Why is that? Rather like that. Or do we have a little hung here? So it's just that heap behind the tank from the rear armor was removed. There are different supplies. smile
          1. i80186
            i80186 9 July 2016 09: 11
            +9
            Here is a little more epic. Tanks only in parades do not understand what does not weigh. Life is a little different. For example, with us, no one from 30 mm would even refuse on a trailer.
          2. Cat man null
            Cat man null 9 July 2016 09: 22
            0
            Quote: i80186
            Why is that? Rather like that. Or do we have a little hung here?

            - normally hung good
            - I was not talking about that there. If you put "Analogue GAU-19A", then the NSVT box must be increased ... five times like this, for an estimate. I personally have a poor idea of ​​it

            Quote: i80186
            So it's just that heap behind the tank from the rear armor was removed. There are different supplies

            - supplies are gut yes
        4. Nick
          Nick 10 July 2016 00: 14
          +1
          Quote: Cat Man Null
          tank - it’s impossible, it is airtight by definition (no one has canceled the HLF yet)
          - outside? Hanging bags? It can be cool, like this:

          Well, not so sure. Take for example Shilka. The weight of the shilka shell varies within 0,2 kg., One third heavier than the Kord cartridge. For a minute of continuous firing, the ammunition reserve in 3400 shells will weigh about 700 kg. this is approximately 1,5% of the mass of the tank itself. Not too critical. In addition, it should be noted that on Shilka itself, the number of shells in the ammunition did not exceed 3000 pieces.
        5. yehat
          yehat 11 July 2016 17: 53
          0
          so now abrams looks like this
      3. svp67
        svp67 9 July 2016 12: 33
        +1
        Quote: HERMES
        An analogue of GAU-19A will do just fine .... it would be put on the T-72 "Gorod". The machine gun is powerful and rapid-fire ... with armor-piercing tape it will sew any wall and light armored vehicles of the enemy.

        That's exactly what POWERFUL with strong returns, can it be compensated by the MSA and STV of the tank? It’s necessary to get somewhere else, and not shoot into the white light, like a pretty penny ...
      4. demchuk.ig
        demchuk.ig 9 July 2016 19: 58
        0
        Quote: HERMES
        It's not a bad option to make a T-72 in the style of "Modern M2" ... but I think more of a rapid-fire machine gun is needed.

        Rapid fire machine gun on the tank (Gatling?), Why?
      5. Firstvanguard
        Firstvanguard 9 July 2016 21: 05
        +1
        Quote: HERMES
        The machine gun is powerful and quick-fire ... with armor-piercing tape will sew any wall and light armored vehicles of the enemy.

        I report - 2A42 does not "sew" any wall, why will a half-inch be sewn for ??? Nanopuli?
      6. yehat
        yehat 11 July 2016 17: 52
        +1
        armor-piercing tape laughing
      7. MaksoMelan
        MaksoMelan 8 May 2017 09: 50
        0
        It is painful to suffer such multilaterals. Moreover, we have worthy analogues of two-shaft GS systems. And easier. But is it worth it? And how many rounds do you have to carry?
    2. Lopatov
      Lopatov 9 July 2016 06: 38
      +4
      And how much will the tower increase in size? One and a half to two. If the BC for the 30-mm gun will not be for children.
      1. Basarev
        Basarev 9 July 2016 09: 51
        +2
        There is already a revival of multi-tower tanks smacks of. A modern analogue of the T-28 could be very effective in urban combat.
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. Verdun
          Verdun 9 July 2016 11: 10
          +12
          Quote: Basarev
          There is already a revival of multi-tower tanks smacks of. A modern analogue of the T-28 could be very effective in urban combat.

          The whole history of the development of tanks shows that the idea of ​​creating a kind of universal machine that can fight everything in a row is a futile way. Highly specialized machines cope much better with their tasks.
        3. Monarchist
          Monarchist 9 July 2016 13: 16
          +1
          In my opinion, two mad tanks will be worse than 1 turret: 1 if you sculpt a turret on the turrets, it will "grow" and therefore the hit area (in) 2 turrets will increase, but to avoid overloading the tank, the armor will be weaker, which is a minus.
          1. gladcu2
            gladcu2 9 July 2016 19: 13
            +3
            Monarchist

            The tank needs to be prepared for the concept of battle.

            If you develop a modular design and as an addition to fasten the desired module. It’s quite normal for it to succeed.

            There are certain statistics that there are several service trucks per tank. From this point of view, it’s not bad to have a car that will carry the necessary modules.

            If the tank is conducting a city battle, then it may make sense to add the desired module.

            In any case, there is an indisputable fact. Each tank pulls a string of maintenance equipment. Given the fact that the armies of the modern world are few, the emphasis is on manufacturability. That modular concept has a development path.
      2. avt
        avt 9 July 2016 10: 05
        +14
        Quote: Spade
        And how much will the tower increase in size? One and a half to two. If the BC for the 30-mm gun will not be for children.

        Uhhhhhh! Listen! Kakai takay 30 mm! ??? 57 however, to the captain ... 57! bully The article is a feverish delirium of idiots who outplayed the world of the same tank. Well, really people, I don’t know what - I never played, the joystick is there, the keyboard is charging the devices to the tank. Well, and also different bullshit at exhibitions hang different terminators on poor 72, since he is Soviet - he will tolerate everything. The sane people actually invented BPM in the USSR, and later in Chelyabinsk, object 782, in fact an assault tank.
        1. i80186
          i80186 9 July 2016 10: 35
          +2
          Quote: avt
          Uhhhhhh! Listen! Kakai takay 30 mm! ??? 57 however, to the captain ... 57! bully Article - feverish delirium of idiots who outplayed the world of the same tank.

          Google Object 450, MBT-70, AMX30B2, L1A4, AMX32, AMX40, Object 477A. We look at the Turkish M60 with a 25 mm gun. And we laugh at idiots with feverish delirium. laughing
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 9 July 2016 10: 58
            +3
            Quote: i80186
            Google Object 450, MBT-70, AMX30B2, L1A4, AMX32, AMX40, Object 477A. We look at the Turkish M60 with a 25 mm gun. And we laugh at idiots with feverish delirium.

            Googled. Cool. All the wunderwaffes you indicated either remained experimental, or ...

            AMX30B2. b / c bashfully not specified.
            AMX32 b / c more or less. That's only fire could lead only from a place. Even from the main armament.
            1. i80186
              i80186 9 July 2016 11: 17
              +5
              Quote: Spade
              All the wunderwaffes you indicated either remained experimental, or ...

              Yes, for a big war, such a stray tank may not be very necessary, but for wars with barmales it is even needed. The point is that this in itself is not nonsense, it is a weapon necessary for the tank. Moreover, the implementation is quite possible. How much do you need? Well, our tanks need auxiliary weapons. Even just ammunition is not enough for the same 12,7 mm. It is very convenient. I'm not talking about limiting the elevation angles of a machine gun coaxial with a gun.
              But how to implement it? Well, as an additional removable module - quite a solution.
              Well, that’s how it’s good, but if something like that is on the tank, then all, anathema.
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 9 July 2016 12: 43
                +9
                For a "war with the barmaley," all the more you need not guns, but intelligence systems and other pribluda that increase not firepower, and so redundant, but situational awareness.
                1. Monarchist
                  Monarchist 9 July 2016 13: 19
                  +2
                  Intelligence is needed everywhere
              2. ty60
                ty60 10 July 2016 01: 01
                0
                So now we’re going to a modular uninhabited tower. With different trunks-152 already worked out. Has the T-14 variant with two 57mm barrels been looked at yet? A variant of coordinated firing at one target — where else is such a density? We’ll design another turret and don’t drive -Replacement of the combat module in the structure of the active unit for the planned tasks. The possibility of firing from the barrels for DIFFERENT purposes -or one at a time. Dreaming is not harmful, but with a decrease in caliber, the ammunition will increase. Maybe two 30mm? Work in this regard.
        2. Kaiten
          Kaiten 9 July 2016 11: 18
          +3
          Quote: avt
          Uhhhhhh! Listen! Kakai takay 30 mm! ??? 57 however, to the captain ... 57! The article is a feverish delirium of idiots who outplayed the world of the same tank. Well, really people, I don’t know what - I never played, the joystick is there, the keyboard is charging the devices to the tank. Well, and also different bullshit at exhibitions hang different terminators on poor 72, since he is Soviet - he will tolerate everything. The sane people actually invented BPM in the USSR, and later in Chelyabinsk, object 782, in fact an assault tank.

          100%
    3. 2s1122
      2s1122 9 July 2016 10: 33
      0
      What's good, there is an excellent development of the Uralites in the form of a TERMINATOR. It includes everything you need to destroy air targets, and to support tanks with infantry. laughing rpobobachit to the tank to fly on the battlefield.
      1. psiho117
        psiho117 9 July 2016 12: 33
        +8
        Quote: 2s1122
        there is also an excellent development of the Uralites in the form of a TERMINATOR. It includes everything that is needed to destroy air targets, and to support tanks with infantry

        To call the Terminator excellent means to sin greatly against the truth. The very idea of ​​BMPT is yes, promising. But the implementation of this idea by UralVagonZavod is complete crap.
        And a note - to destroy air targets, one gun is not enough, yes ... We need to find, accompany and direct them with something else. The necessary drive response is needed, a different set of avionics, and much more that the Terminator does not have.
        1. Manul
          Manul 9 July 2016 21: 50
          0
          Quote: psiho117
          But the implementation of this idea by UralVagonZavod is complete crap.

          A lot of this is said, but only on the forums. Here would be a detailed conclusion of specialists, and see in the article request
    4. Alekseev
      Alekseev 9 July 2016 18: 08
      0
      Quote: PKK
      The second gun is definitely needed

      Quote: PKK
      The commander will add work, but the strength of the tank and the possibilities will increase.

      We must not forget that the tank is not a cruiser, that it does not operate alone, but as part of a unit where there are BMPs with a 30-mm gun, and God forbid the commander and gunner to make full use of the existing weapons.
      And also that the precedents were: T-35, T-28, etc. wink
      Something did not burn out the case.
      True, it may be advisable to replace the ZPU with Utyas with a module with 2A42, but here you need to think: whether on all linear tanks or only on new Armats with their highly automated LMS, etc. etc.
    5. demchuk.ig
      demchuk.ig 9 July 2016 19: 55
      0
      Quote: PKK
      The second gun is undoubtedly needed, and if it can also shoot at aircraft with automatic guidance, it’s fine at all. The commander will be given more work, but the strength of the tank and the possibilities will grow. Good thing.

      It has long been known to everyone that everything universal means nothing! Highly specialized weapons work much better! Let's add ballistic and anti-aircraft missiles there (to the tank)! This will be a car! Urya patriots, please do not worry!
    6. pofigist_26_rus
      pofigist_26_rus 10 July 2016 14: 47
      +1
      That's just going to happen due to a decrease in the main armament.
  2. Cat man null
    Cat man null 9 July 2016 06: 02
    +6
    About "Modern" was already on VO, here, for example:


    The armament complex of the promising T-72M2 tank was supplemented with two additional guns. In special lifting containers at the rear of the tower, two KAA-200 automatic cannons of 20 mm caliber with ammunition were placed. Gun control tied to the panoramic sight of the commander. The mechanics allowed you to aim the guns vertically in the range from -4 to +35 degrees. Horizontal guidance was supposed to be performed by turning the entire tower. Additional small-caliber guns were intended to destroy lightly armored vehicles and enemy manpower on the ground, as well as to destroy low-flying aircraft located in the firing zone. Initially, two 20-mm guns were installed on the prototypes of the Modern tank. However, in the future, due to the ambiguity of the obtained characteristics, they were replaced with a single 30-mm 2A42, borrowed from the BMP-2 Soviet infantry fighting vehicle

    However, for some reason, it is not indicated anywhere whether this gun (s) has its own, personal, free-standing stabilizer.

    If they have, this is glorious, although this, IMHO, is not easy and not cheap.

    If they don’t have, these guns are useless when firing ... are useless (read - they are almost completely useless).

    Voooot request
    1. ty60
      ty60 10 July 2016 01: 11
      0
      That's right. The problems of the SLA and the actual separation of the number of controlled trunks. No more than two-commander and gunner. Untracked response shots. Active defense on the machine.
    2. Incvizitor
      Incvizitor 12 December 2016 00: 55
      0
      On the main gun, the stabilizer and even on these ... what
      Also, a decrease in the BK of the main gun is most likely (in order to place the BK for the auxiliary).
  3. fellow misha
    fellow misha 9 July 2016 06: 19
    +2
    Where, besides the title, is the word "Syria" in the article?
  4. Siberia 9444
    Siberia 9444 9 July 2016 06: 37
    +22
    Created the same cover of tanks that sculpt hunchback IMHO.
    1. Cat man null
      Cat man null 9 July 2016 06: 54
      +9
      Quote: Siberia 9444
      Did the same cover tanks that sculpt hunchback IMHO

      - in-in ... otherwise everyone is trying to cross the tank with Shilka
      - why - it is not clear request
      1. Shark Lover
        Shark Lover 9 July 2016 08: 06
        +4
        There is already a bigger question for the research institute, the programming brains of those who are obliged to organize interaction and correctly use resources. Do not send bmd head-on for assaults, and the tanks drive alone into the city
      2. Manul
        Manul 9 July 2016 22: 07
        +3
        Quote: Cat Man Null
        in-in ... otherwise everyone is trying to cross the tank with Shilka

        Hm. Crossing is curious .. what
        1. Cat man null
          Cat man null 9 July 2016 22: 15
          +4
          Quote: Manul
          Hm. Crossing process is curious.

          - what's in the picture? Why are they doing this ?! belay
          - I don’t know about the process, but there is such a song:

    2. bionik
      bionik 9 July 2016 09: 05
      0
      Quote: Siberia 9444
      what sculpt humpback IMHO.

      By the way, about birds. Unfortunately, BMPT seems to be absent from Syria (I personally haven’t seen photos and videos in the media, although I really don’t see it in the troops, only a small batch of vehicles was put into service in 2005 for testing in military conditions. ), but the technique with all the + and - is checked only in a real battle. And here we missed such a chance.
  5. avg-mgn
    avg-mgn 9 July 2016 06: 49
    +6
    Syrian experience: is a second gun needed for a T-72?

    I read it. It is very interesting, only the question in the title remained unanswered in the article. To whom is it assigned - to us, the readers? To the Syrian designers who have already introduced us to the Skvoreshnik?
    But with Cat man null, sometimes the gun stabilizer, I can not agree: If they don’t have, these guns are useless when firing ... are useless (read - they are almost completely useless).
  6. Lopatov
    Lopatov 9 July 2016 07: 22
    +21
    This, of course, is all very brutal ... But not very smart. A blind tank will come out. With three crew members, m / v, gunner of the main armament and gunner of the auxiliary 30-mm gun. Without a commander.

    The tank commander, on the contrary, needs to be unloaded as much as possible from all functions except for monitoring and controlling the fire and maneuver of the tank in battle.
    And it is necessary to bother not by increasing the caliber of auxiliary weapons, but by increasing the commander's situational awareness. Not to drag a 30-mm cannon onto a tank, but an electro-optical surveillance system protected from bullets and shrapnel. With a constant 360-degree view, with a specialized computerized system that improves image quality, a target recognition system, a system that marks targets received from other units of the unit and infantry, with a system that marks "allied units" ...

    Well, those tasks that they are trying to assign to the 30-mm cannon are easily solved by improving the ammunition for the main tank gun. Up to the fight against low-flying targets. For example, what prevents to make an analogue of the "Kornetovskaya" air-defense missile with a proximity fuse? Or a high-speed UAS, which is planned to be used for a 57-mm anti-aircraft gun?
    1. Aleks tv
      Aleks tv 9 July 2016 09: 22
      +9
      Quote: Spade
      This, of course, is all very brutal ... But not very smart. A blind tank will come out. With three crew members, m / v, gunner of the main armament and gunner of the auxiliary 30-mm gun. Without a commander.

      The tank commander, on the contrary, needs to be unloaded as much as possible from all functions except for monitoring and controlling the fire and maneuver of the tank in battle.
      And it is necessary to bother not by increasing the caliber of auxiliary weapons, but by increasing the commander's situational awareness. Not to drag a 30-mm cannon onto a tank, but an electro-optical surveillance system protected from bullets and shrapnel. With a constant 360-degree view, with a specialized computerized system that improves image quality, a target recognition system, a system that marks targets received from other units of the unit and infantry, with a system that marks "allied units" ...

      Well, those tasks that they are trying to assign to the 30-mm cannon are easily solved by improving the ammunition for the main tank gun. Up to the fight against low-flying targets. For example, what prevents to make an analogue of the "Kornetovskaya" air-defense missile with a proximity fuse? Or a high-speed UAS, which is planned to be used for a 57-mm anti-aircraft gun?

      Welcome.
      Well said.
      And then they dream of a ballistic tracked submarine ...

      The modern tank has enough firepower, only modern b / p serve.
      But with situational awareness in tanks there was always no ice. Improving this system will at times increase the effectiveness of a tank with existing weapons.
      A stabilized panoramic and tactical tablet to the commander, and this is at least.
      The system of vision through armor is the future, there, in addition to creating the system itself, there will also be a TTZ for psychologists). Not so all this is simple, but there is a clear future for this.

      To hit a target is not so difficult, but ... find it and correctly classify the danger of these goals ...)))
      No matter how strange it may sound, but it is SO.

      And for additional weapons:
      Tank, with its striking firepower, needs self-defense weapons.
      A simple PCT in a good stabilized DUM with 1000 oil in one tape.
      This is the weapon of the commander, he just needs to turn the headset on the 360, so let him, in passing, shoot off unnecessary parts of the body of any curious loitering with a seven on his shoulder.

      Photo: Machine-gun mount UDP T05BV-1 of the T-90MS tank.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 9 July 2016 10: 36
        +4
        Welcome.
        Quote: Aleks tv
        And for additional weapons:
        Tank, with its striking firepower, needs self-defense weapons.
        A simple PCT in a good stabilized DUM with 1000 oil in one tape.

        But will not be enough? Here, after all, first of all, a high density of fire is needed, once the commander of an individual grenade launcher was precisely targeted. Maybe in vain here on the site over the double-barreled MG-14Z giggled?
        And not just good stabilization is needed, providing high accuracy of the DUM fire during the rotation of the tower, but also an automatic target tracking. Again, to unload the commander as much as possible.
        And the "trunks" on the DUM should be replaceable. Depending on the task. Sometimes PCT behind the eyes. And sometimes you need 12.7, or even 40-mm AG

        MG-14Z:
      2. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 9 July 2016 12: 04
        +9
        Alex, good afternoon!
        Quote: Aleks tv
        To hit a target is not so difficult, but ... find it and correctly classify the danger of these goals ...)))

        In my opinion, the tank would not hurt to have equipment of the "Antisniper" type:
        "... The" Antisniper "system is capable of detecting optoelectronic and optical devices used by snipers both at night and during the day at a distance of about 2,5 kilometers. Moreover, in three ranges. In case of detecting a shooter, the system blinds and illuminates him to give the possibility of its elimination, ... "
        I do not say, but it seems that all anti-tank devices are guided through the optics, which means that they should be visible on the anti-sniper.
        Combine this equipment with automatic aiming of a machine gun at this place, and the commander has a screen (where the machine gun aimed) and a "fire" confirmation button.
      3. gallville
        gallville 9 July 2016 14: 58
        +3
        Greetings Alexey hi
        Quote: Aleks tv
        Machine gun installation UDP T05BV-1 tank T-90MS.

        A caliber is not small? All the same, 12,7 punches brickwork.
        It seems to me that the problem in the article is far-fetched. A full 12,7mm module for the tank just right.
        All ideas with 30mm guns, etc. appear due to weak interaction with infantry fighting vehicles and infantry fighting vehicles.
        And we must work in this direction too. By the way, this will increase the situational awareness of the tank.
      4. Alexander War
        Alexander War 9 July 2016 16: 17
        +3
        I welcome Alexei, only a machine gun installation with a 12,7mm machine gun
        1. Aleks tv
          Aleks tv 9 July 2016 18: 30
          0
          Quote: Bad_gr
          Alex, good afternoon!

          Quote: gallville
          Greetings Alexey

          Quote: Alexander War
          Alex welcome

          Volod, Ivan, Alexander,
          Welcome.
          hi
          Glad to hear, men))).
          Something in the form of an anti-sniper is already there.
          And the caliber ... For self-defense of PKT just right, and the amount of oil in one tape is very important.
          The main thing is that the DUM has a high pickup speed on GN and VN.

          And the new DUM went modular, at least 7,62 at least 12,7.
          What tasks will be, use such weapons.
    2. ty60
      ty60 10 July 2016 01: 15
      0
      And where's the bk-in bags with you?
    3. Incvizitor
      Incvizitor 12 December 2016 01: 06
      0
      Well, 30 mm shells will still have nowhere to place such, it seems to me if we talk about this then 20 mm sooner.
      And for this
      Until the fight against low-flying targets
      probably you can place an air defense system on the tank (of course not with 20 mm laughing ), but again, the load on the commander. It seems there is no sense in this.
  7. OlegYOla
    OlegYOla 9 July 2016 07: 48
    +5
    Yeah and add a cannon and MANPADS (2) to stick somewhere and on the trailer (SCRC) will be Wunderwaffe - a wonderful weapon wassat
    “And the Swiss, and the reaper, and the dude,”
    1. Incvizitor
      Incvizitor 12 December 2016 14: 17
      0
      And the second main gun good
  8. Yak28
    Yak28 9 July 2016 08: 28
    0
    It is necessary to create two tower tanks, or set up a turret, so that the guns rotate in different directions regardless of each other. wink
    1. Cat man null
      Cat man null 9 July 2016 08: 51
      +7
      Quote: Yak28
      It’s necessary to create two turret tanks, or set up a turret, so that the guns rotate in different directions regardless of each other

      Then T-35 right away laughing
      1. Forever so
        Forever so 9 July 2016 15: 42
        +1
        Laughter is laughter, but if you put uninhabited rifle modules on the T-35, instead of towers, we will see that the New is a rehash of the Old on a new technical base. The proposal to install 30 mm rods on the T-72 in the form of a module, one horseradish already double-turret tank is obtained.
        1. Cat man null
          Cat man null 9 July 2016 15: 55
          +4
          Quote: Forever so
          The proposal to install 30 mm rods on the T-72 in the form of a module, one horseradish already double-turret tank turns

          Um ...

          - now the NSVT (or Kord) stands on the tower
          - In the T-64 and T-90, it is controlled from the inside (horizontal aiming - by turning the commander's cupola). In fact, a "mini-two-tower" scheme

          That is, everything seems to be fine, but:

          - anti-aircraft machine gun does not have its own stabilizer. That is, on the move it shakes, like ... I don’t know how, but it’s impossible to hit the target on the go request
          - Moreover, to get out of it, say, by helicopter - this is necessary to be very lucky (and the helicopter to get stupid, fly in and hover)
          - that is, how exactly this anti-aircraft machine gun ... well, not really, and the fire from it - only from the spot
          - therefore, the idea from the quote below is very nice to me personally yes

          Quote: Aleks tv
          Tank, with its striking firepower, needs self-defense weapons. Simple PCT in a good stabilized DUM with 1000 oil in one tape. This is the weapon of the commander, he just needs to rotate the headset 360, so let him, in passing, shoot off unnecessary parts of the body of any curious idlers with a seven on his shoulder

          * PKT - machine gun Kalashnikov Tank (7.62); DUM - Remote Controlled Module

          That's something like ...
          1. Aleks tv
            Aleks tv 9 July 2016 18: 46
            +3
            Quote: Cat Man Null
            - anti-aircraft machine gun does not have its own stabilizer. That is, on the move it shakes, like ... I don’t know how, but it’s impossible to hit the target on the go
            - Moreover, to get out of it, say, by helicopter - this is necessary to be very lucky (and the helicopter to get stupid, fly in and hover)
            - that is, how exactly this anti-aircraft machine gun ... well, not really, and the fire from it - only from the spot

            Absolutely, Roman.
            And to fire at air targets with an open ZPU from T-72 ... It's generally a circus on a donut.
            It is high time to abandon the word "anti-aircraft", there is no need for this pampering with words. To expose the industry a normal TTZ on a unified DUM of various types of machine gun weapons for work by area and make it.
            That's it.
            By the way, on Armata it seems so and done, there is a DUM with PCT.
            I suppose that instead of PKT it is possible to install Utes or Kord there, if the 12,7 caliber will be needed on the current theater.
            1. Bad_gr
              Bad_gr 9 July 2016 20: 58
              0
              Quote: Aleks tv
              By the way, on Armata it seems so and done, there is a DUM with PCT.
              I suppose that instead of PKT it is possible to install Utes or Kord there, if the 12,7 caliber will be needed on the current theater.

              In my opinion, not enough. If the battle is in the city, a grenade launcher leaned out of the window of a high-rise building, and immediately hid. Keep track of the window all the time - you can skip the plop from the other side. And so, I beat a 30mm shell into this window and there is no problem.
              1. Aleks tv
                Aleks tv 10 July 2016 02: 40
                +4
                Quote: Bad_gr
                If the battle is in the city, a grenade launcher leaned out of the window of a high-rise building, and immediately hid. Keep track of the window all the time - you can skip the plop from the other side. And so, I blasted an 30mm shell into this window and there is no problem.

                Volodya, you’re not a theorist, well, tell me - HOW to stick 30 in the T-72 tower?
                Volodya, not in the T-62, but it is in T-72 ... that’s an article about IT.

                - Spark? No, the reserved volume will not allow.
                - The second turret? And who will manage it? Commander?
                Heh, there are only three guys who drive and control the fighting vehicle on the subconscious interpersonal relationship of the Brotherhood of the crew.
                Well there is no more space in the T-72 ...
                The crew of the tank is the main force of this whole community called Armor.

                The crew of the T-72 will not be able to cope with additional weapons.
                1. The mechanic has his own task - to drive as the commander ordered.
                2. The gunner has his own task - to dust all the targets that the commander indicated.
                3. The tank commander has a headache in his ears from both sides, as:
                - you need to take orders from a superior commander,
                - you need to command the Tank (crew) in pursuance of the Order.
                P-173 ???
                And they want to call this the Harmony of combined arms combat.
                Not...
                You give the commander all the details ... ugh, damn it, the whole atmosphere of the current battle. And this is PANORAMNIK and tactical tabletassociated with a superior commander.
                And then the simplest tank commander would simply tear apart ALL the goals that he had been set.
                ...
                And the battle in the city, yes ... and any other battle in any theater is impossible to defeat some kind of prodigy.
                The battle is won only:
                - Fighters with a capital letter,
                - The necessary equipment with spaced calibers of weapons and,
                - TACTICS action.
                Good luck, dear Mazut.
                drinks
                1. Bad_gr
                  Bad_gr 11 July 2016 18: 29
                  0
                  Alex, good afternoon!
                  Quote: Aleks tv
                  HOW to stick a 30-ku in the T-72 tower?

                  If I set the task of sticking an all-perspective cannon that is not tied to the main gun, then I see no options. But if it is horizontal along the course of the trunk, but vertically like the BMP-2, then there are options. One of them is in the photo (in the article itself and in my previous post).
                  Object 195 had such a gun:
  9. Kudrevkn
    Kudrevkn 9 July 2016 08: 31
    0
    The point is not at all in the "fifth wheel", but for the solution of what tasks is this "additional equipment" required? And how can this help both in protecting the tank "from the rear" and in urban conditions against grenade launchers, and for repelling counterattacks from the flanks of ISIS mobile squadrons? The author writes: "Based on the Syrian experience ...." Meanwhile, neither the combat experience of the two (!) Chechen, Tajik and now Syrian campaigns in any way by our generals DOES NOT CONSIDERATE ???? As in the exercises, they went on the attack with a saber on the head on the forehead along the entire front - "tanks are coming - hello to the Boy - Bad, helicopters and airplanes are flying - hello to the Bad Boy, the infantrymen are running - salute to the Bad Boy!" And the "bad boys" will evade a frontal attack, sit on their "carts" and hit the flank and rear and show the warriors the heels of the Kid - Bad?
    1. Cat man null
      Cat man null 9 July 2016 09: 08
      +4
      Quote: KudrevKN
      And the "bad boys" will evade a frontal attack, sit on their "carts" and hit the flank and rear

      - and the tower’s tower jammed, hike? And she refuses to spin, categorically?
      - or am I missing something substantial?

      One more time:

      - to put additional cannons-machine guns "a la Modern" makes no special sense (horizontal guidance is carried out by turning the turret, that is, the cannon and the coaxial machine gun are looking "in the same direction")
      - Additional submachine guns must be equipped with an autonomous stabilizer, otherwise the sense of them .. a little more than zero. Very little more
      - the T-90 already has an NSVT controlled "from within" by the tank commander
      - the T-72 also has NSVT, controlled, however, from the outside
      - it has already been decided on Armata (there is a special turret, I hope it can rotate independently from the tower)
      - to fence something "a la Armata" on the T-72 or T-90 ... I honestly don't even know .. there we need a new tower to do it, IMHO. Because there is simply nowhere to put an "additional turret for an additional gun" on the one that exists ...

      That's something like yes
      1. Kudrevkn
        Kudrevkn 9 July 2016 17: 19
        +2
        Kitty! You missed the defeat of our tank column during the first assault on Grozny! No, the towers were not particularly wedged there, they (the towers) simply flew off like the heads cut off by the barmaley of the Syrian prisoners of war - such a tactic of intimidation, "psychic attack" .... I am writing that our operational strategists and tactics have no organizational conclusions from did not make these terrible losses? And therefore, even though you have a dozen machine guns about the whole tower, but all the same as a cow's saddle! ???
  10. sabakina
    sabakina 9 July 2016 08: 55
    +7
    Syrian experience: is a second gun needed for a T-72?

    I read the article twice. Syria WHERE? am
  11. berezin1987
    berezin1987 9 July 2016 09: 35
    +2
    And why is a machine gun of the caliber 12,7 mm bad? He punches brickwork, light shelters also do not protect against it. Why make a fuss with 30 mm auto-gun and the need to place ammunition for it. 30 mm and 57 mm guns will be mounted on heavy BMP / BMPT, which will cover the tank.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Cat man null
      Cat man null 9 July 2016 14: 26
      +1
      Quote: berezin1987
      30 mm and 57 mm guns will be mounted on heavy BMP / BMPT, which will cover the tank

      - Jambs is FIVE yes
      - And Infantry fighting vehicle - this is also FIVE ... no, it is EIGHT laughing
  12. Hauptam
    Hauptam 9 July 2016 09: 36
    +2
    Where is the generalization of the Syrian experience, or the same "load" as in the Baltic Fleet.
  13. Nik2013
    Nik2013 9 July 2016 09: 41
    +1
    Interesting idea
  14. demiurg
    demiurg 9 July 2016 10: 29
    +6
    Who will shoot from 30mm? Tank commander? He has so many things to do. If he really wants to shoot, there’s NSWT. Who will shoot 30mm? An additional cannon, with a rotary stabilized platform and ammunition, will eat a lot of weight, which could be used for booking, active or dynamic protection. It only seems that armor, a bunch of guns and machine guns can easily be hung on the tank. Unfortunately, it is not. You can hang it rather, but the mobility of the tank will drop, and the chassis and transmission will begin to die much faster.
    1. MaksoMelan
      MaksoMelan 8 May 2017 09: 59
      0
      And why not put in place the exchange rate machine gun? At least on amate you can think of such a thing. The rest of the Soviet period tanks? Work at large tilt angles? Or a variant paired with the main gun? But it seems to me Lush independent guidance from the main trunk?
  15. Cat
    Cat 9 July 2016 11: 01
    +1
    I suggest going the other way. Who is the main enemy of the tank - aviation. Then, to a greater extent, our tanks need modules with small-sized vertical-launch missiles. Which work according to the scheme shot and forgot.
    1. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 9 July 2016 11: 11
      +4
      Quote: Kotischa
      Who is the main enemy of the tank - aviation.

      For this, the tanks must be accompanied by air defense systems of the Tunguska type, which were created for this.
    2. SokolfromRussia
      SokolfromRussia 9 July 2016 12: 17
      -1
      There was almost no aviation in the Donbas, but hundreds of tanks were burning. Their main enemy is infantry, saturated with anti-tank weapons. Tanks - it's just money down the drain.
    3. Incvizitor
      Incvizitor 12 December 2016 01: 20
      0
      Excessive load on the crew. Is the commander also able to follow the sky? 20 mm would allow at least the infantry to drive, and this is surplus, it is precisely the air defense systems.
  16. demiurg
    demiurg 9 July 2016 11: 15
    +6
    Quote: Kotischa
    I suggest going the other way. Who is the main enemy of the tank - aviation. Then, to a greater extent, our tanks need modules with small-sized vertical-launch missiles. Which work according to the scheme shot and forgot.


    And against the enemy artillery of the MLRS, preferably a tornado. Against the infantry a couple of mortars. Tighten a pair of surveillance radars to illuminate the tactical situation at 200km in the area. Airborne squad for platoon cover. Repair shop. Oh yes, the OTRK to smash the headquarters of enemies. And a nuclear reactor to increase autonomy. hi
    1. The comment was deleted.
  17. SokolfromRussia
    SokolfromRussia 9 July 2016 12: 15
    -6
    The Syrian experience once again showed the futility of tanks as such. In no conflict for many years they have played a prominent role. Donbass also showed it very brightly.
    1. demiurg
      demiurg 9 July 2016 12: 32
      +2
      High-quality stuffing on the fan. Develop it, who will support the infantry in the attack on fire?
      By the way, your post should deeply outrage the kosher readers of VO, because for some reason they produce and upgrade Merkava. And the US suckers are solid with its Abrams. It’s better not to remember about us.
      1. SokolfromRussia
        SokolfromRussia 9 July 2016 21: 22
        -5
        Should support the BMP and artillery. A tank worth several million dollars is burned by a rocket at 100 times cheaper. Americans have not produced tanks for a long time. It is really better not to remember about us, because tank armada did not help us absolutely anywhere. Tens of thousands of tanks did not save Saddam, Gaddafi, or even Yugoslavia. And in the same Syria, they burn hundreds and even if they helped Assad to expand the controlled territory.

        The generals, as always, are preparing for the last war.
        1. Cat man null
          Cat man null 9 July 2016 21: 30
          0
          Well, what are you ... sculpt, I'm sorry, Lord ...

          Quote: SokolfromRussia
          Must support BMP and artillery

          - BMPs are not intended to "support the tank"
          - BMP task - to deliver infantry (preferably safe and sound) to the line of dismounting. All.

          Quote: SokolfromRussia
          A tank worth several million dollars is burned by a rocket 100 times cheaper

          - not always and not immediately

          Quote: SokolfromRussia
          The Americans have not produced tanks for a long time.

          - So what?

          Quote: SokolfromRussia
          It’s really better not to remember us

          - about you?

          Quote: SokolfromRussia
          because the tank armada didn’t help us anywhere

          - interesting. That is, the Great Patriotic Union of the USSR would have won without it? So, easily?
          - think what you write. Not even funny already laughing

          Quote: SokolfromRussia
          Tens of thousands of tanks did not save Saddam, nor Gaddafi, nor even Yugoslavia

          - did you list tens of thousands of tanks? Um ...
          - what were these tanks? What years, to more accurately formulate the question

          Quote: SokolfromRussia
          And in the same Syria burn hundreds

          - why not tens of thousands? Go ahead, anneal, come on wink

          In short: would you not climb ... in you unusual negative
          1. George Sviridov
            George Sviridov 14 July 2016 12: 44
            +1
            Comrade, you are confusing armored personnel carriers, which just have to bring infantry to the place of dismounting with infantry fighting vehicles, which just cover the infantry, and are the main means of defeating the squad, moreover, BMPs, unlike armored personnel carriers, are designed to be able to fight without any dismounting.
    2. George Sviridov
      George Sviridov 14 July 2016 13: 16
      0
      tanks are not static weapons to change the outcome of wars.
      However, the tank is a cannon and a couple of machine guns, for 3-4 people, this is a very high concentration of weapons on the 1st soldier. That is why the tank will be used for a very long time by all major countries. The USA may not produce new ones (they riveted a lot of them at one time), but they are very actively modernizing them.
      Tanks show themselves poorly, only in cases where either the enemy is obviously weaker or they are used for other purposes. A tank is all the same artillery, but with better mobility and the ability to independently detect targets. When a tank is sent alone somewhere it is not known where, where is the enemy, of course it will be destroyed. But how should it be?
      The enemy’s position is detected. Aviation and artillery fire on it. The infantry is mopping up, and the tanks cover it in case it suddenly turned out that there artillery and aviation did not suppress some kind of firing point.
      And "tanking damage" from ATGMs, artillery, grenade launchers is a tank's task only in computer games. It is clear that we always act according to the situation, and not as it should be, but according to all tactical instructions, a tank should appear on the battlefield when the enemy no longer has anti-tank weapons or their number and the ability to use is minimal. But the tank, due to its powerful thermal imager, is an ideal sniper, anti-sniper element.
  18. cosmos111
    cosmos111 9 July 2016 12: 20
    +7
    Armament IS-7 130-mm gun C-26 slotted muzzle brake and seven machine guns: one 14,5-mm KPV and six 7,62-mm RP-46.
  19. Kars
    Kars 9 July 2016 12: 32
    +1
    Not negative news on the Bastion has come here for a long time.

    The contract is not broken as many times they throw it.
    And on the issue of payment, Thais pay upon delivery) there was no prepayment.
    1. Alex 1972
      Alex 1972 9 July 2016 16: 10
      +7
      Well, your comment is off topic, this time.
      You here a few years ago joked that you need independence, so that your son would serve around your house around the corner and not fight, these are two.
      And change the avatar already, that's three. She does not suit you.
  20. demiurg
    demiurg 9 July 2016 12: 36
    +8
    Quote: Kars
    Not negative news on the Bastion has come here for a long time.

    The contract is not broken as many times they throw it.
    And on the issue of payment, Thais pay upon delivery) there was no prepayment.


    45 tanks for the Malyshev factory? Here you need to cry.
    1. Kars
      Kars 9 July 2016 12: 47
      +1
      Quote: demiurg
      45 tanks for the Malyshev factory? Here you need to cry

      how they pay and do so.
      But they’re doing it) at least according to various bloggers and inform agents, the contract has been broken and canceled dozens of times
      1. demiurg
        demiurg 9 July 2016 12: 59
        +11
        A country with 40 million people, which had the ability to produce tanks, planes, spaceships, aircraft engines, marine gas turbines, is rapidly heading towards Somalia.
        Here in the next topic they discuss the massacre in Lviv, in 41 years. If in 10-15 years any occupiers will replace the power in Ukraine, it doesn’t matter, we Germans, Poles, who do you think will be cut by remembering Valtsman and others?
        What is the most offensive, not those who are to blame will suffer. The perpetrators will sit in London and shout about another genocide.
        Sorry for the offtopic.
        1. Kars
          Kars 9 July 2016 13: 21
          +1
          Quote: demiurg
          A country with 40 millions of people

          what does this have to do with a private contract? In the UK, the tank factory was shut down.
      2. yanus
        yanus 11 July 2016 14: 22
        +2
        Quote: Kars

        how they pay and do so.

        So the problem is that they pay poorly? .. Wonderfully little ...
        And we thought, some technical problems, but everything turns out great, they just pay badly.
  21. AlNikolaich
    AlNikolaich 9 July 2016 13: 21
    +6
    Kars, why should the Bastion be necessarily bad? Because Ukrainian? I think Oplot is an ordinary tank, unremarkable and somewhat outdated ... The crown of development is sixty-four, and no more. And no, he is not the best in the world, and far from a child prodigy, as dill. Militias testify!
    And with regards to the Malyshev plant, what is the potential? How many cars can produce, and with what quality? What are the prospects? Plant is still a plant and design bureau. There are smart people there ... It’s not for lovers from the legal sector to sculpt tirexes and azovites from trash cans of shit and sticks ...
    PS. At one time, before the revolution of filth and gavnomaydan had a desire to buy a motor boat Motor Sich, for forty horsepower ... I never found on sale. A friend then went to his homeland, in the Poltava region, and did not find the same anywhere ... In general, is it released?
    1. Kars
      Kars 9 July 2016 13: 52
      +1
      Quote: AlNikolaich
      Kars, why should the Bastion be necessarily bad?

      Are you sure you want to address this to me?
      Quote: AlNikolaich
      The crown of development of sixty-four, and no more

      In general, the development of T-80UD
      Quote: AlNikolaich
      Militias testify!

      The stronghold was not there.
      Quote: AlNikolaich
      Motor sich, for forty horsepower ... I could not find it on sale. A friend then went to his homeland, in the Poltava region, and did not find the same anywhere ... In general, is it released?

      never interested) but Motor Sich works.
      1. Venceremos
        Venceremos 9 July 2016 18: 34
        +5
        Quote: Kars
        never interested) but Motor Sich works.

        How does the rephrasing of the German fascist slogan "The wheels of the Reichsban (railways) must turn to win" fit this comment ...
        1. Kars
          Kars 9 July 2016 18: 45
          +2
          Quote: Venceremos
          How does the rephrasing of the German fascist slogan "The wheels of the Reichsban (railways) must turn to win" fit this comment ...

          Well, all questions for Putin), he decided to change Ukraine to Crimea. Or thought that it would all just end and still did not recognize the DPR and LPR
          1. Venceremos
            Venceremos 9 July 2016 18: 57
            +9
            Quote: Kars
            Well, all questions to Putin), he decided to change Ukraine to Crimea. Or thought that it would all just end.

            Well, a fly on a badge ... Again Putin is to blame ...
            If anyone has the right to make any complaints about what is happening, then this is not you, Andryusha.
            War came from you, it was from you that this national fascist rot climbed and blossomed.

            Once again, I KINDLY ASK, grasp the mind.
            1. Kars
              Kars 9 July 2016 19: 04
              +2
              Quote: Venceremos
              Well, a fly on a badge ... Again Putin is to blame ...

              Namely) he drove Yanyka to Euro-association

              Quote: Venceremos
              If anyone has the right to make any complaints about what is happening, then it’s not you at all, Andryusha

              Personally, I can present.
              Quote: Venceremos
              Once again, I KINDLY ASK, grasp the mind.

              I don’t understand what you personally want from me, because it’s the Russian Federation and Putin that do not recognize the DPR and LPR.
              1. Venceremos
                Venceremos 9 July 2016 19: 17
                +9
                Quote: Kars
                I don’t understand what you personally want from me, because it’s the Russian Federation and Putin that do not recognize the DPR and LPR.

                first :
                Don't get involved in geopolitics. Not you, not fake "square" like object international relations have not grown to this.
                Second:
                LEAKY PORTS you will soon be able to present to Putin.
                I already wrote to you in the "PM" that we are developing by virtue of our capabilities, and you jump "at the break", and since you, all of you do not wish , or by virtue of a frenzied Maidan brainlessness can not understand the logic of ongoing processes, and begin to comprehend, then there is a way for you.
                The third :
                Yanuponchik, this half-wit to "European integration" was driven by the desire to sit on ... not even two, but several chairs in general.
                But to the cunning ...
                1. Kars
                  Kars 9 July 2016 20: 16
                  +2
                  Quote: Venceremos
                  Don't get involved in geopolitics. Not you, not the fake "square" as an object of international relations has not matured to this.

                  Well, you get involved) and you are no better than me)
                  Quote: Venceremos
                  LEAKY PORTS you will soon be able to present to Putin.

                  that I can and present)
                  Quote: Venceremos
                  I already wrote to you in a "personal" that we are developing by virtue of opportunities,

                  I don’t see what you would develop) if the Russian Federation did not have to distract attention from the Crimea and it did not help you, then you yourself understand.
                  Quote: Venceremos
                  Yanuponchik, this half-wit to "European integration" was driven by the desire to sit on ... not even two, but several chairs in general.

                  Yes, no) it was Putin who deceived him back at the Kharkov agreements) and crushed gas prices and trade wars) that the potm did not prevent him and the junta from recognizing) and lower the gas price
                  Quote: Venceremos
                  all of you do not want, or because of the frenzied Maidan brainlessness you cannot understand the logic of the processes

                  Well, few people can accuse me of maydanism here), but for some reason you don’t like my personal opinion) would have shared their logic)
          2. Manul
            Manul 9 July 2016 22: 12
            +6
            Quote: Kars
            he decided to change Ukraine to Crimea

            Do not flood. And you have decided Russia on the stupid nationalism of Bandera, with the Euro-deflection exchange. And return to the topic of tanks, please.
            1. Kars
              Kars 9 July 2016 23: 02
              +1
              Quote: Manul
              And you have decided Russia on the stupid nationalism of Bandera, with the Euromeasurement exchange

              These are not interconnected concepts) And for this, Russia has done everything it could. And for radicalization, too.
              Quote: Manul
              And back to the topic of tanks, please.

              Then why did you write such an introduction?
  22. TsUS-Air Force
    TsUS-Air Force 9 July 2016 13: 36
    +2
    fine! why don't they do that? because the machine gun on the tower from which you must shoot full nonsense
  23. Forest
    Forest 9 July 2016 15: 16
    +4
    An additional cannon on the tower is a crazy idea. Where to put the BC, the gun itself is not a fluff, the recoil is stronger than the NSVT or Korda, and now it is necessary to put and book stabilizers on this. A set of shells for it on the BTR-82A weighs more than a quarter ton. You can’t put it in the tower, there’s so little space. It remains to hang over the tower and protect at least from another 2A42 40-50 mm armor plate. You won’t make an elevation angle like a machine gun, otherwise it will stick out a meter from the tower, and for the T-14 it will already be under 4 - not all tunnels will enter. As a result, 1-1,5 tons of additional load on the chassis. IMHO, it is better to install a paired module from 12,7 and AGS.
    1. Venceremos
      Venceremos 9 July 2016 18: 42
      +6
      Quote: Forest
      An additional cannon on the tower is a crazy idea.

      ADDITIONAL to STAFF, yes. But when the BM is initially designed in multi-tool version, then in a certain case it is justified. And the fidelity of such a placement is proven by experience.

      But you need to understand that we are not talking about tanks, and even less about the modernization done "on the knee".
      1. Forest
        Forest 9 July 2016 19: 54
        +1
        125mm shots are much larger than 100mm unitars, so this placement won't work. But you can't shoot the upper floors, as well as on the slope of the gorge, so you will have to use the good old anti-aircraft machine gun. You can still install an autocannon to the 152mm cannon - the BC is modest there, after all. The 30/100 module itself for the BMP-3 is complex, it was not in vain that they decided to install the S-60.
  24. Forever so
    Forever so 9 July 2016 15: 45
    +3
    There is one detail that will be the same for all types of tanks, regardless of caliber and number of towers, thickness of the armor and size of the rollers)) This is LOG mounted on the stern)))
  25. Denimax
    Denimax 9 July 2016 17: 18
    +3
    Before guessing whether to put a gun or not. First, you need to analyze the fighting, find out what goals, distances, battle conditions, etc. To do this, you need to interview the direct participants themselves. It may turn out that weapons will have to be created from scratch or something combined. I believe that they want to put a gun to strengthen the tank in a city battle. Perhaps the AGS 30 mm semiautomatic device with better ballistics on a turret is suitable here.
    1. Venceremos
      Venceremos 9 July 2016 18: 45
      +5
      Quote: Denimax
      I believe that they want to put a gun to strengthen the tank in a city battle. Perhaps the AGS 30 mm semiautomatic device with better ballistics on a turret is suitable here.


      Well, for this, BMPTs are already needed. Everything you have listed on it is there, and it was just designed to support tanks, including during operations in the city.

      And then why reinvent the wheel?
  26. Cat
    Cat 9 July 2016 18: 27
    0
    Armies are different. Let's compare the experience of war in Iraq and in Syria. In one case, aircraft in the second infantry fought with BTT. In the future, drones will fight tanks and the fact that there will be many of them. Tunguska, shilka and tori are good, but their goal is strike aviation. Whether we like it or not, we don’t attach to each tank. They are simply not enough. It’s good to put a second tower or module with a small-caliber cannon, but there are disadvantages where to put a new crew member, where to put ammunition, how to book an additional module without increasing the weight and height of the equipment. The installation of small-sized missiles will make it possible to solve one problem with one minus. Allow the tank to survive after an air strike. But it has to be automated once, with a chargeability system of two. Let there be no missile guidance complex on the tank and it will be integrated and controllable from the same tunguska or air defense command post at the level of a tank platoon or company. Let one tank be equipped with a radar drone, and the other air missiles land. In general, this will increase the number of carriers of air defense missiles on the battlefield several times. The same thing about the second enemy of the infantry tanks. In a modern and equipped army with tanks, BMPT, BMOPS, BMP and infantry will go into battle. In our realities, the tank will fight alone with the infantry. In this connection, I propose that when equipping a BTT complex, the arena will worry that the second ammunition covers the firing point of the grenade launcher. Moreover, the commander should not come off for a secondary target, and the gunner should turn the tower. The enemy must be covered by a small-sized vertical launch missile. Which should be interchangeable with air defense missiles.
    Regards your cat
    1. dimzat
      dimzat 14 July 2016 08: 00
      0
      It is strange that a specialist who talks about such things does not remember that about 1 kg of weight of this very "homing" rocket accounts for 300 kg of all kinds of equipment (radar, receiver of a friend or foe, computer, power supply (so 50-70). and the place all this takes is very robust. And in terms of optics, directing the air defense system is almost hopeless. MANPADS is a separate song, besides, the time for bringing into a firing position for arrow-2 was in the region of 2-3 minutes, for the needle and the needle, s this is probably better. And the vertical launch of MANPADS somehow is not observed. :-)
  27. Operator
    Operator 9 July 2016 19: 44
    +3
    The tank needs a high-quality KAZ that automatically intercepts ATGMs and RPGs from any angle. And with all other goals, the tank itself will deal with the 125-mm gun, not the 30-mm bullet.

    UVZ instead of pouring from empty to empty with a self-made Terminator, it is high time to put KAZ on the T-72 / T-90 and close the question.
  28. Phosgene
    Phosgene 9 July 2016 22: 12
    0
    The second gun, or at least the KPVT machine gun, in a closed installation, for firing on high floors of buildings, is simply a necessary thing if the tanks still want to be used for fighting in cities.
  29. Leeder
    Leeder 10 July 2016 01: 15
    0
    25 again!
    Well, the tank does not need an additional gun!
    Who will shoot from it?
    The idea itself is certainly very attractive, 25-30 mm. by buildings. That's just such a gun should be independent of the main gun (otherwise there is not much sense), he needs an additional crew member, well, and ammunition.
    As a result, we get a multi-tower design, with all the ensuing consequences, such as an increase in weight, height, loss of mobility, etc.
    Somewhere we already passed it ...
  30. demiurg
    demiurg 10 July 2016 07: 19
    +1
    Everywhere and everywhere there is specialization. She is also in BTT. No need to make generalists. Wagon ALWAYS loses to specialized equipment.
    Now it would be very good to listen to the Professor and his Israeli friends, they have experience in using tanks in the city. You can also listen to those who stormed Grozny.
  31. potapych
    potapych 11 July 2016 10: 25
    +1
    application experience has shown that pampering all this (t-28, t-35, t-100)
  32. The comment was deleted.
  33. askar2300.kg
    askar2300.kg 11 July 2016 13: 55
    0
    How do you like such a tank, if you want to know more write
  34. Porcupine
    Porcupine 12 July 2016 19: 59
    0
    Do we really need a T-72? The car is half a century, and we have an innovation.
  35. Volga Cossack
    Volga Cossack 23 September 2016 10: 16
    0
    involuntarily I recalled the prototype of Centurion with the Polsten gun - nothing is new under the moon ........ the truth is that it is paired with the main gun as in the French AMX ......
  36. the same doctor
    the same doctor 26 September 2016 10: 24
    0
    It all depends on the means of attack of the potential enemy and the software of the gun. If it can shoot down ATGMs and aircraft missiles, then this gun is needed. If the newest anti-tank systems are too tough for her, then there is no need to carry excess weight. In short, it is necessary not to talk about an abstract "increase in firepower", but it is stupid to find out if there are specific vulnerable targets for this weapon.
    .
    In general, the progress of the armored vehicles of the future is beyond weighing it with additional weapons. It is a pity that this cannot be written more specifically.
  37. zoolu300
    zoolu300 1 October 2016 20: 16
    0
    I believe that overloading the structure of the tank with an additional artillery system with dubious effectiveness, and the crew of the tank with additional responsibilities is not worth it. I propose to consider here the concept of a tactical shock pool (according to the state, something like a platoon). So, all the combat units of the pool are based on one base (BMP - 3, Kurganets, T - 72, Armata, Boomerang). The pool includes: SPG (tank) with 125 - 152 mm artillery system + 12,7 mm machine gun (main artillery and anti-tank weapon of the pool); BMP (combat vehicle support) with tactical radar AFAR, GLONASS equipment, armed with a 57 - 76 mm automatic cannon + 7,62 (12,7) mm machine gun and 2 double guides along the sides of the module for ATGM and MANPADS (artillery means of a pool for firing not direct fire, auxiliary vehicle and forward air defense cell of higher units); BRM (combat reconnaissance vehicles) equipped with the "Fara" radar, thermal imager, automatic mine detector, automatic RHBZ devices and UAVs, armed with a 12,7 mm machine gun; 1 - 2 armored personnel carriers (armored personnel carrier) carrying an infantry squad, armed with a 12,7 mm machine gun. This unit is capable of independently solving a wide range of tasks.
  38. nikcris
    nikcris 10 October 2016 20: 15
    0
    I am a military builder and we weren’t even supposed to have machine guns.
    From everything I read, I realized that the coolest tank of the Third World - T-35, damn it ... Zadolbali couch ki!
  39. nikcris
    nikcris 10 October 2016 20: 36
    0
    What trick genius dominates my favorite site?
    Think it over! Have you ever been to a shooting range? Have you seen ammunition scatter visually? Not from AKM))))))), but from an aircraft gun, on a machine. There it is generally not clear what you can get further than 500 meters.
    I recall the legendary pearl of Lavrov ... DB !!!
    PS Anticipating the arrivals. I built factories and, having clearance in the form of a bottle together, watched ...
  40. iouris
    iouris 21 October 2016 12: 56
    0
    There are no wars "at all". To effectively wage a war of a certain type, you need a very specific weapon. There will be no nuclear missile war. Before engaging in hostilities with an exotic enemy in an unconventional theater of operations, it is necessary to determine the nature of hostilities and form an OTT for weapons. The design of an effective tank is determined by the nature of the fighting. I think we need a platform that can be used to attach weapons of destruction and active protection. This is called "open architecture".
  41. MaksoMelan
    MaksoMelan 12 November 2016 20: 53
    0
    Maybe you should think about cartridges with composite or plastic sleeves. To reduce weight. Perhaps directly from the factory in plastic tapes too. Or even a ptron, a creation tape is attached to each other. But this new complex should be created.