Military Review

Kypchak in Hungary

68
It is clear that the Kipchak Polovtsy, before being “separated from the mass of the Kimak,” were subjects of the Kimak state (Tatar, that is, created and led by the Tatars). But relations with them (and dependencies) did not lose until the beginning of the 13th century. And it is quite clear what the Tatars, described in the Laurentian Chronicle, had in mind: “The Tatars, having learned about the campaign of the Russian princes, sent to tell them:“ We heard, you go against us, listening to the Polovtsy ... we came to allow God for his serfs and grooms, on the nasty Polovtsy, and with you there is no war ... "- a description of the events preceding the battle of Kalka in 1223.
"The Crown of the Horde Empire, or the Tatar Yoke was not"
Gali Enikeev


... The strengthening of the Kypchak presence in Hungary dates back to 1239, when a large number of nomads moved to Alfeld. The second wave of Kypchaks came in 1246 from Bulgaria. The Kypchaks found support in the young king Istvane V and supported him in the war against Bela IV. Istvan V was married to the daughter of the Kypchak Khan Seykhan. Hungarian barons were afraid of losing the “golden liberties”. It must be said that the Hungarian nobility almost lost its influence under King Laszlo IV Kune. Only the defeat of the Kypchaks in the battle on Lake Hod in 1282 (or 1280) allowed the Hungarian barons to regain their former influence. Back in the time of Bela IV, the Hungarian magnates understood the danger to their position and took measures to eliminate competitors. Matvey of Paris reported that the Cumans refused to fight the Mongols. It only fueled suspicion. The Hungarian murder of Kotyan forced many Kipchaks to flee to Bulgaria. I. Vashari supported the hypothesis of P.Pavlov that Georgy Terter's father was a relative of Kotyan. Georgy became the Bulgarian king in 1280. Mr. O. Pritsak considered the Terterids to be a dynasty of Kypchak origin. The leader of the tribe Chekan Seykhan passed to the service of Bela IV. The daughter of Seyhan Erzhebet gave birth to Laszlo Kun, the future King of Hungary, and during his reign owned lands in Serbia and Bosnia.
Kypchak in Hungary

King Laszlo Kun, Kotyan's grandson


The presence of the Kypchaks in Hungary and the very existence of an independent state on the western outskirts of the Eurasian steppes were an irritant for the Mongols. In 1258, the Romanovich capitulated before the Mongols and were forced to take part in the campaign 1259 – 1260 as part of the Mongolian troops. against Lithuania, Poland and Hungary. These events prompted the Serbian monk Pandeha to write a Serbian prophetic legend, how all the peoples of Central-Eastern and Southeastern Europe would be destroyed by the Mongols. The Hungarians held off the Mongol invasion of the Carpathians. In one Hungarian literacy an interesting fact was recorded. King Stephen V sent Ponita an envoy to the Tatars. The king noted that this mission turned the invasion of the Tatars away from the country. It must be said that this embassy was preceded by several years of confrontation between the Mongols and the Hungarians. In 1262, the youngest king of Hungary (co-ruler) Istvan V made peace with Berke, but did not allow his troops into his possession. In 1264, Burke proposed the Bele IV alliance. Bela IV rejected this offer. Naturally, a war followed in which the main character was Jacob Svetoslav. At that time, the Balkans were attended by the troops of Berke, led by Kutlug-Melik, who acted against the Romais in alliance with the Bulgarians. In 1265, when the war was still going on, Pope Clement IV proclaimed a crusade against Ulus Juchi. The Hungarians achieved decisive success in 1266, when Berke's troops were no longer in the Balkans. Ban Gregory took Oryahovo, Ban Ponit captured Pleven, and Master Aegidius approached Turnovo. Hungarians also captured Vidin. The threat to Hungary from the Juchids was significantly diminished after the death of Burke.
The Kypchaks as part of the Hungarian troops fought against the Czechs. During one of the Hungarian Kipchak raids on the Czech Republic, several thousand Christians were killed in Moravia. 25 June many were killed near Olomouc. The Kypchaks in 1260 took part in the Battle of Kresssenbrun, and in 1271 they attacked Austria together with the Hungarians. In 1278, the Kypchak detachments as part of the Hungarian troops fought in the battle of Moravmeszo.
The Hungarian Kypchaks were subordinated to the bishops of Eger, Kalocz, Arad, Chanad, Vác and Esztergom. In one of the letters of Bela in 1264, the lands of Paloza were transferred to the Monastery of St. Eustache. In another literacy, the Kipchak lands were transferred to a certain Count Ioanke. On the territory of the Eger Episcopia, there was an exchange of possessions between the Hungarians and the Kypchaks. The possessions of these Kypchaks were in the Borsod committee. Pope Urban IV wrote about the Kipchaks to the Archbishops of Esztergom and Kaloc. He ordered them to expel Kipchaks from the country who did not accept Christianity. Hungarian chroniclers blamed the Kipchaks for all mortal sins. But it is unclear how true these allegations are. One of the common accusations against the Kypchaks among the Hungarians and the Romans were looting by nomads. The Kypchaks were not going to move to the village. In addition, the Hungarian aristocracy and the king did not pay them for the service. They were offered to live at the expense of mining in the campaigns. But it was an irregular source of income. Therefore, in peacetime, the Kypchaks had to make raids on their neighbors in order to feed themselves at least somehow. They opposed Christianization because they did not want to pay tithes to the church. This was taken into account by the Hungarian kings and the Kypchaks did not pay tithe until the middle of the 14th century. The Kypchak aristocracy wanted to preserve their identity and customs. Under the influence of his mother (Erzhebet, daughter of Seyhan), Laszlo IV also adhered to nomadic customs. He did not live with his legitimate wife from the Anjou clan, but preferred the Kypas lovers Edua, Kupcech and Mandoulou. The king wore Kypchak clothes and jewelry. Part of the nobility took the example from the king. Some Hungarians are also addicted to the lifestyle of the Kipchaks. Sources report two Hungarian bishops who choose to live just like the king. During the reign of the Hungarian king Laszlo IV Kun, the Kypchak leaders Alpar, Uzur, Arbuz, Turtule and Kemeneche were close to the Hungarian king. Relying on the Kypchaks, Laszlo IV sought to limit the “golden liberties” of the Hungarian barons. The pretext for the intervention of the Pope were rumors that the Kipchaks remain pagans and keep Hungarians, even simple peasants, slave.
The Roman Curia sent a legate to Hungary to eradicate the remnants of paganism. At the Seten in Teteni in 1279, part of the Kypchak aristocrats (Alpar and Uzur) accepted the conditions proposed by the Pope’s envoy. They were issued in the “Certificate of Couman”. It was an ultimatum with proposals that it was impossible to refuse. In fact, Kipchaks were instructed to abandon the veneration of stone statues, adopt the clothes of the Hungarians, settle down and live in houses. The king was ordered to respect the rights of his barons, to abandon his former life. Each tribe was ordered to send inquisitors, so that they followed the purity of faith. It was ordered to free slaves from Christians. Kipchaks could be vassals of barons. For their land they were to serve in the army and in the case of evasion be punished. Kypchak aristocracy was equated with noble Hungarians. The Kypchaks were removed from the jurisdiction of the Palatin and passed on to tribal judges. For appealing the decision, the Kypchaks received the right to appeal to the king. At the same time, their lands were withdrawn from the power of the king. The “letter about the kumans” was intended to drive a wedge between the king and the Kypchak leaders, the Kypchak leaders and their people.

King Stephen


Naturally, part of the Kypchak aristocrats did not accept these conditions. Lazlo IV Kuhn did not accept them either. The king wanted to send the papal legate out of the country and forbid him to return on pain of death. The legate cursed the king and excommunicated two bishops. Taking advantage of the favorable moment, the barons removed the Kypchaks from the court, and took the king himself into custody. In Hungary, a civil war began. Hiding behind the name of the king, the Hungarian magnates raised their vassals to the Kipchak war. The decisive battle took place on Lake Hod in 1282 (or 1280). She influenced the state of the Kipchaks and reduced their political influence. Echoes
confrontations with the barons and the Pope were felt later. In 1284, the Kipchaks attacked the possessions of Thomas Chanad and then continued to capture the Christians. They maintained their habits and beliefs, despite the fact that the king had earlier promised the Pope to adhere to the norms of the “Letters of the Cumans” and force the Kypchaks to accept Christianity. At the court remained to serve Watermelon, Turtule and Kemeneche. The Roman Curia threatened with sanctions and the Hungarian nobility plotted to kill the king. The artists of the plan were Watermelon and Turtule, who were later executed to hide the traces of the crime. Kipchaks continued to remain in retinue
The Arpadas (under King Endre (Andrash III) were courtiers of the Kypchaks, but their influence was very much reduced compared with the time of Laslo IV Kuhn). In the XIV century. The Kipchaks actually became Christianized and economically turned to settled life and gradually merged with the Hungarians. The Kypchaks served in the Hungarian army and during the Anjou dynasty. The final approval of Catholicism among Hungarian Kypchaks occurred in 1410, however, the Kypchaks finally dissolved in the Hungarian environment only after a few centuries. Part of the Kypchaks after the battle on Lake Hod fled to the territory of Ulus Juchi and Bulgaria. Among them chroniclers mentioned a certain Aldamura. He can be identified with Aldimir by Bulgarian historians. Oldamur was a relative of George Terter. The diplomacy of King Laszlo Kun witnessed an expedition of Hungarians east of the Carpathians. Obviously, the Hungarians carried out this campaign in pursuit of the Kypchaks. The rulers of the Galicia-Volyn state perceived it with hostility and responded with a raid on the Hungarian possessions. The presence of Rusyns troops in the Tisza basin is testified by Hungarian letters. Romanovich covered the fleeing Kypchaks. Tigak, whom V. Otroshchenko identified with Chingulsky Khan, served Volyn princes. The Taganchi emir was also in their service. The late appearance of Aldimir in Bulgaria can be explained by the defeat at Lake Hod. According to the influx of Oladmour, Telebug made a campaign against Hungary in 1285. Thus, the campaigns of Rusyns and Tatars against the Hungarians were caused by an alliance with the rebellious Hungarian Kipchaks.
Bulgarian Kipchak feuded with Hungary. In 1272 – 1273 Gyorgy Sovari fought against the Kypchak Dorman and his Bulgarian allies. Dorman is Drman Bulgarian documents. Drman and Kudelin ruled in Branichevo. They fought against the Serbian king Milutin. The Serbs conquered Branichevo and Belgrade. Kipchak Shishman, who ruled Vidin, helped Drman and Kudelin. But the Serbs won and his army. They approached Vidin. This caused interference from Nogai, who favored the Bulgarian aristocracy of Kypchak origin.

Kipchak iron mask found in the mound near Kanevsk (10 century)


So, in the Kypchak ethnonymy of Hungary there are ethnic names of the tribes of both the western part and the eastern part of Desht-i-Kypchak. Western Kypchaks were, of course, more numerous, but among the migrants there were, for example, representatives of the Eastern Kipchak kangls. The Kypchaks who moved to Hungary in 1239 and 1246 were settled in the royal domain. In rare cases, they were settled in the territories controlled by the barons. In the Kypchaks, the Hungarian kings saw opportunities to change the balance of forces in their favor. During the reign of Laszlo IV Kuhn, the life of the Hungarian aristocracy began to acquire nomadic features, but this process was stopped by the intervention of the Roman Curia. Part of the Kypchak aristocracy at the congress in Teteni adopted the basic rules enshrined in the “Letter of the Kumans”. Those who did not accept these conditions, or were destroyed in the Battle of Lake Hod, or were turned into slaves, or fled to Bulgaria and Ulus Juchi. Nogay was not an ally and not an enemy of the Kipchaks, but spoke only against Oldamur and George Terter, whose plans hindered the implementation of his plans. Palocians are descendants not only of the Kipchaks, but of all Turkic settlers in the north and north-west of the Kingdom of Hungary. Among the ancestors of Paloza were the Pechenegs, Oguzes, Bayandu, and Kipchaks. It was the Hungarian adaptation of the West Slavic name Kipchak that became the name of this ethnic group within the Hungarian nation.
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  1. Red_Hamer
    Red_Hamer 9 July 2016 06: 53
    +6
    Kipchak iron mask found in a barrow near Kanevsk (10th century)?
    Where is the mask? I see the reconstruction of the Kipchak skull according to the method of M. Gerasimov, 12-13 century of the work of G.V. Lebedinsky! I don’t see the masks!
  2. Red_Hamer
    Red_Hamer 9 July 2016 06: 57
    +2
    Maybe this?
  3. parusnik
    parusnik 9 July 2016 08: 12
    +3
    During the reign of Laszlo IV Kuna, the life of the Hungarian aristocracy began to acquire nomadic features, but this process was stopped by the intervention of the Roman Curia...Papa was worried that crowds of pagans were wandering in a Catholic country and in 1279 Bishop Philippe de Fermo arrived in Hungary from Rome with the Pope's decree on the "Kumans" (Kypchaks). This decree, divided into 14 articles, contained requirements : to prohibit shaving the beard and head, as well as to wear high felt "kunskie" hats, to resettle the coons in separate areas, limiting the size of their wanderings, in order to force them to settle, and most importantly - to carry out baptism as soon as possible. In fulfillment of the requirements of the pope, the "Manifesto" of Laszlo IV Kun, "the king of Hungary, Kumania and Bulgaria" of 1279 with the appropriate instructions was issued. Inquisitors were sent to the Kun tribes and their units to observe the execution. The nobility of the Kuns was equated with the nobility and received land plots on which the nobleman's tribesmen could live. The harsh execution of the "Manifesto" caused an uprising in 1280, as a result of its suppression, part of the Cumans fled in 1282 to Nogai, in Transnistria, to Dobruja, where Kuman (Kypchak) principality of Balik (1280–1400). The Royal Manifesto of 1279 turned the Kuns (Kipchaks) into the number of legitimate inhabitants of the kingdom, their nobility was included in the Hungarian nobility, having received the corresponding rights and duties, the soldiers were included in the Hungarian army no longer as a mercenary squad, but as a detachment of a feudal lord - vassal of the king. Warriors were also equated with "nobles", that is, the nobility.
  4. The comment was deleted.
  5. ver_
    ver_ 9 July 2016 09: 24
    -2
    ..O Lord, my God again, the Mongols - then another fake ..
    1. bazalt16
      bazalt16 20 July 2016 20: 55
      0
      In the south of Hungary, there are samples of dwelling copies of yurts of the steppe inhabitants, Identical words in languages ​​and the custom of serving the boiled sheep’s head near the Hungarians to the table. In Europe, they don’t serve it anywhere else on the table.
  6. Seraphimamur
    Seraphimamur 9 July 2016 11: 23
    +1
    An interesting and informative article.
  7. King, just king
    King, just king 9 July 2016 11: 28
    -2
    Again, the Mongoloids. Well, everywhere, b ... Although, if during the reconstruction of the Kipchak skull, an eye section should be made not for the sake of the restorer’s own ideas, but normal, that’s how the reference Caucasian looks.
    And what do uncle scholars say about the haplogroups of the Hungarians and other mutothen?

    Above "parusnik" writes about the Roman legates. Interestingly, in 1054, during a specific showdown, one of the Patriarch's arguments was just the Latins shaving his beard, and here, on you, to forbid shaving beards. An interesting point.
    1. ver_
      ver_ 9 July 2016 13: 58
      0
      ... so eyes such could be from a big hangover after sleep ...
    2. ver_
      ver_ 9 July 2016 19: 47
      +1
      ..what kind of patriarch - they still haven’t crucified Christ .. - there was paganism ..
      1. Aposlya
        Aposlya 9 July 2016 20: 29
        +1
        Christ was crucified in the year 33, or was Fomenkovism again trampled on ?! laughing
        1. ver_
          ver_ 10 July 2016 03: 12
          -4
          Did not try to be treated? Have they still not understood that all these charlatans from science have attributed 1200 years to the History of Civilization? ..
          Christ was crucified in 1185. This date is unambiguously established .. Therefore, the "carousel" - the same historical events under a different sauce are duplicated in other centuries ...
          1. Aposlya
            Aposlya 10 July 2016 15: 05
            +1
            Quote: ver_
            Did not try to be treated? Have they still not understood that all these charlatans from science have attributed 1200 years to the History of Civilization? ..
            Christ was crucified in 1185. This date is set unambiguously ..


            Yes, it’s time for you to Fomenkovtsy yourself to be treated! laughing
            At least from stupidity ...
  8. King, just king
    King, just king 9 July 2016 16: 16
    0
    Nah, ver_! Will not go! You have a fad about the New Chronology. It is only worth entering into dialogue with you, it will be difficult to exit. Of course, I am not an adherent of Fomenko, but I support certain points.
    1. ver_
      ver_ 9 July 2016 16: 46
      0
      ... the merit of this collective, and on this topic "sits" more than one hundred people .. Their goal is to determine the exact dates of historical events .. and not the fantasy of historians ..
      A simple example - if Mongolia was founded in 1920, then from what hangover did the Mongols "make a rustle" in the 12th century?
      If Tataria was founded in 1920 (also), with what a fright
      they, together with the "Mongols" "rustled) in the 12th century ..
      It is quite understandable and logical that the Tatars are not a Nation, or Nationality, but equestrian squads - an army ..
      If the Horoscope is carved in the Egyptian pyramid, the date is determined precisely, and not by the delusional fantasies of archioluhs .. who need degrees and prizes ..
      1. Aposlya
        Aposlya 9 July 2016 18: 06
        +4
        Quote: ver_
        If Tataria was founded in 1920 (also), with what a fright
        they, together with the "Mongols" "rustled) in the 12th century ..


        That way, with this logic, you can go to the point of absurdity, like "If the Russian Federation" was created in the 90s, then what does Ivan the Terrible have to do with it? laughing
        1. ver_
          ver_ 9 July 2016 18: 50
          0
          ..And what does Ivan the Terrible have to the Russian Federation? ..
          1. Aposlya
            Aposlya 9 July 2016 20: 30
            +1
            Quote: ver_
            ..And what does Ivan the Terrible have to the Russian Federation? ..

            well i.e. he has nothing to do with the Russian state, right?
            1. ver_
              ver_ 10 July 2016 03: 16
              0
              ..it is related to the historical era in which he lived ..
              1. Aposlya
                Aposlya 10 July 2016 15: 07
                0
                Quote: ver_
                ..it is related to the historical era in which he lived ..


                The Volga Tatars, the descendants of the very Bulgars that Batu had conquered, are also directly related to the Horde ...
  9. V.ic
    V.ic 9 July 2016 18: 07
    -1
    In 1258, the Romanovichi capitulated to the Mongols and ... Author Pilipchuk Ya.V.

    There was no such dynasty! Daniil Romanovich Galitsky was from the genus of Rurikovich (on the male line).
    1. ver_
      ver_ 9 July 2016 19: 09
      -5
      ... Mughals = great, powerful .. This is not a nation or nationality.
      Ruthenia (the country of military people), Mughal (great), the Country of Gaidariks (cities), Scythia, the Country of the Huns - as different peoples called Russia at different times ..
      1. Aposlya
        Aposlya 9 July 2016 22: 40
        +2
        Quote: ver_
        Ruthenia (country of military people), Mughal (great), Country of Gaidarists (cities)


        On the go, are you already composing your "story", perhaps following the example of your teacher Fomenko?

        Ruthenia (lat. Ruthenia) - one of the medieval Latin names of Russia [1], along with Russia, Ruscia, Roxolania and others. This option, dating back to the ancient name of the Celtic tribe of ruteni (lat. Ruteni) [2] [3], due to consonance, was transferred by Western European scribes to Russia.

        And by the way, Gardarika is not a "country of cities" in the Scandinavian way, as many interpret, but a "country of fences". Gardar is a fence, a fence in Old Scandinavian language. By the way, the historian Zhukov noted this in "The Goblin's Heel" ...
        1. ver_
          ver_ 10 July 2016 03: 25
          0
          .. and with what power do you determine which of the "Historians" to the right - studied this issue by themselves, or how ... - especially since the Scandinavians in those days were a very small population and their roots were in the Smolensk region .. ..
          1. Max_Bauder
            Max_Bauder 10 July 2016 13: 11
            0
            first listen to this

            1. ver_
              ver_ 10 July 2016 15: 05
              0
              .. in vain they attached this "picture" - I'm not even close to listening to these holy fools, or clowns - this is at your discretion, idiots and any rascals who bear no responsibility for their words, even eat backwards ..
            2. Mengad
              Mengad 10 July 2016 16: 20
              0
              Enough to hear about the Huns laughing And ask why? I will answer: According to their data and the so-called sources, the Huns originated somewhere in the region of northern China 3 BC. At this time, from the raids of the Huns, the Chinese are building the Great Wall of China (this is according to the Chinese version) We now see the stone wall as Chinese, but according to one version, it was clay at first! laughing And every 5th Chinese says that it was built! (I wonder what population was in China then?). According to sources, did 300 people build a wall, if every 000th we get that the population was 5 million? or something I do not understand?smile Well, they built it like that ... and at that time the Huns .. wait for the Chinese to finish their clay MAGNIFICENT wall (people are smart) to try it out later laughing Well, finally they built it hz how much they built but 10 years for sure and here oh dear! the wall could not restrain the Huns! How so? built a few thousand kilometers of clay wall and then on you! Sorry, but in this version my mogz resists believing laughing
              1. Aposlya
                Aposlya 10 July 2016 18: 23
                0
                Quote: Mengad
                How so? built a few thousand kilometers of clay wall and then on you! Sorry, but in this version my mogz resists believing


                Well, yes, it’s easier to believe Fomenko or Levashov that it’s supposed that the ancient Russians built a wall for China! laughing
                You would at least read historical research then, at least the same Chinese annals where it was written that the ancient Chinese (Han) principalities fought with these Huns in the 23rd century BC.
                In China, not one, but several walls, I don’t remember the exact number, but it seems like about eight. Those. by these remains of the walls one can also trace how the Chinese emperors conquered lands from the south to the north ...
            3. The comment was deleted.
          2. Aposlya
            Aposlya 10 July 2016 15: 11
            -2
            Quote: ver_
            .. and with what power do you determine which of the "Historians" to the right, studied this issue by yourself


            The scientist of historiography, at least just simply reasoned knowledge, is enough, and not that of the mathematician Fomenko, who "dawned" by the suddenness! laughing

            Quote: ver_
            Moreover, the Scandinavians in those days were a very small population and their roots in the Smolensk region ..


            The roots of the Scandinavians in the Smolensk region ?! This is something new! It seems the student has surpassed his teacher! Let's proofs about the roots of the Scandinavians in the Smolensk region in the studio! And then so with the tongue to grind all the best! smile
            1. ver_
              ver_ 10 July 2016 15: 51
              0
              ... swimming too shallow ..
              1. Aposlya
                Aposlya 10 July 2016 18: 24
                0
                Quote: ver_
                ... swimming too shallow ..


                but you are sectarians, so generally they are navigators! smile
        2. ver_
          ver_ 10 July 2016 04: 02
          0
          .. City - city walls to protect against the enemy, this is the city, and not a small village of three yards and not a hut on chicken legs ....
          1. Aposlya
            Aposlya 10 July 2016 18: 31
            0
            Quote: ver_
            .. City - city walls to protect against the enemy, this is the city, and not a small village of three yards and not a hut on chicken legs ....


            The fence is the fence, but the city walls are the walls!
            Here we take the language of the same Norwegians, who were these very Scandinavians:

            Norwegian fence: Gjerde, i.e. root of the word Gardarik (Gerdarik). Pronounced as Giyare ...
            But the Wall will already be Veggen!

            Those. if it were the walls of the city, and not a fence that the city could not have, then the country would not be called Gardarik at all ...
        3. V.ic
          V.ic 10 July 2016 14: 42
          0
          Quote: Aposlya
          a "country of fences". Gardar is a fence, a fence in Old Scandinavian language.

          Well, you just declare that they fenced the gardens! You look and the "bosom" shitcrats from behind the hill will unfasten the cookie, they will assign a degree, they will throw the "greenery" under further refutation ...
          1. Aposlya
            Aposlya 10 July 2016 15: 13
            0
            Quote: V.ic
            Well, you just declare that they fenced the gardens! You look and the "bosom" shitcrats from behind the hill will unfasten the cookie, they will assign a degree, they will throw the "greenery" under further refutation ...


            And you are the goblin historian Zhukov yourself and listen to his speeches. The fence is not a fortress wall, but the fence of a settlement or a farm, as excavations of those times show ...
      2. ver_
        ver_ 10 July 2016 03: 44
        0
        .. to the minuscule: Your minuses only testify to your inadequacy, incompetence and donkey stubbornness .. There is a good proverb - Though ... in the eyes, it’s all the same the dew of God ... How can you come to terms with the fact that your ethnic groups were on the periphery of historical progress due to the paucity and weakness .. Baba Yaga is also dissenting ..
        1. Max_Bauder
          Max_Bauder 10 July 2016 13: 14
          0
          Quote: ver_
          How can you come to terms with the fact that your ethnic groups were on the periphery of historical progress due to their small size and weakness ..


          you just cannot reconcile. The Western Türkic Kaganate had diplomatic relations with the Eastern Roman Empire - Byzantium, Persia and China in the 6-7th century, when the state of the Slavs did not exist at all smile
          1. ver_
            ver_ 10 July 2016 15: 21
            0
            .. for especially gifted connoisseurs of history, I repeat once again: all the "antiquity" of China was written by falsifiers in the 17th century, and the antiquity of Mongolia in the 19th century - your shoulder straps do not correspond to your historical knowledge - sometimes a cow flies ..
      3. Max_Bauder
        Max_Bauder 10 July 2016 13: 09
        +2
        Quote: ver_
        Scythia, the Country of the Huns - so at different times Russia called different nations ..


        Wake up and don’t drink anymore, do not pour Saturn anymore laughing
      4. Aposlya
        Aposlya 10 July 2016 15: 16
        -1
        Quote: ver_
        Scythia, the Country of the Huns - so at different times Russia called different nations ..


        Ahaha! When the Huns roamed in those places, no Russia still smelled! In that place, the Avar and Tyur Khanate existed! smile
        1. ver_
          ver_ 10 July 2016 15: 33
          0
          .. yes there already the Mausoleum with Lenin stood at attention.
          1. Aposlya
            Aposlya 10 July 2016 18: 33
            0
            You also say that Russia already in the 5th century A.D. was - laugh together! laughing
    2. Aposlya
      Aposlya 9 July 2016 22: 36
      0
      Quote: V.ic
      There was no such dynasty! Daniil Romanovich Galitsky was from the genus of Rurikovich (on the male line).


      Here, obviously, it is clearly understood that the Romanovichs are descendants of Prince Galitsky and Volyn Roman ...
      Well, this is the same as it was said about the Yaroslavichi. Everyone understands that it’s all Rurikovich, it’s just that there are so many of them that the division of dynasties such as Monomakhivichi, Romanovichi, Yaroslavichi, etc., was introduced into circulation.
    3. Cat
      Cat 10 July 2016 06: 32
      +1
      I will intercede for the author. Romanovichi is not a dynasty, but belonging to a house in a dynasty. For example, Olegovich, Svyatoslavovich, and others. Patronymics were not widely used in the considered period of history. So their contemporaries had to somehow get out.
  10. Mengad
    Mengad 9 July 2016 18: 08
    +2
    as you dig a little deeper, all the lies of all this academic science come out. We read carefully and highlighted so that there would be no unnecessary questions, we will begin We read the headline: FOUND IN LONDON THE MOST ANCIENT WRITTEN DOCUMENT IN BRITAIN. we look at what we found and the description of the item. quote .. ,, More than 1300 wooden tablets were excavated in the Vindolan fortress in Northumberland, south of the Adrian wall; this is mainly the correspondence of soldiers stationed here, but the earliest letters are dated 85 g. e., when the first wooden fort was built. The earliest dated Bloomberg tablet is a financial transaction concluded on January 8, 57: These wooden tablets in the Roman world served as notepads. They were covered with a layer of black beeswax, but they wrote on this surface with a style (stylus), But what does this find look like: what am I doing? Now you will see in the next post.
  11. Mengad
    Mengad 9 July 2016 18: 13
    +1
    Now look at the archaeological finds in the glorious city of Novgorod ... Pay attention to the highlighted text! The daughters found in England are identical to the plaques found in Novgorod! Even the technology is the same! But! The difference between one and the other by their disappearance of the so-called archaeologists is just 1200-1400 years! That's how we are fooled!
    1. Aposlya
      Aposlya 9 July 2016 20: 34
      -1
      Quote: Mengad
      Even the technology is the same! But! The difference between one and the other by the disappearance of the so-called archaeologists is only 1200-1400 years old! That's how we are fooled!


      And what is it? As they wrote with ink in China a thousand years ago, so now they write out their hieroglyphs with the same ink - the technology has not changed ... If there is a proven technology, then it does not change despite the time! As knives were made of steel in antiquity, so do they now ...
      1. ver_
        ver_ 10 July 2016 03: 34
        -1
        ... all the antiquity of China was written in the 17th century ... like the antiquity of Mongolia was written in the 19th century ..
        1. Aposlya
          Aposlya 10 July 2016 15: 18
          0
          Quote: ver_
          ... all the antiquity of China was written in the 17th century ... like the antiquity of Mongolia was written in the 19th century ..


          As for Mongolia, I agree - until the 20th century, the territory of Mongolia was called Turkestan. The Mongols came to those lands only in the 16th century - their Manjurians digged out because of Khingan ...
          But the Khan principalities are known even before BC.
          1. ver_
            ver_ 10 July 2016 17: 17
            -1
            .. it remains only to find out, or to clarify what it means-BC
            1. Aposlya
              Aposlya 10 July 2016 18: 34
              0
              Well, you already figured out everything, but Fomenko revealed all the secrets of history!
              Ask the Turks, because according to your guru they are feral Russians! Maybe they remember that the thread ... laughing
    2. Rivares
      Rivares 9 July 2016 21: 01
      0
      Only on the English board I do not see wax. They probably wrote on wood)))
  12. Mengad
    Mengad 9 July 2016 21: 07
    0
    Quote: Rivares
    Only on the English board I do not see wax. They probably wrote on wood)))

    So they will cover it with wax, write what they need and say, look, see what is written here, everything supposedly is Vasya Pupkin in 51 BC and lived and lived there and there laughing
  13. ver_
    ver_ 10 July 2016 06: 00
    0
    Quote: V.ic
    In 1258, the Romanovichi capitulated to the Mongols and ... Author Pilipchuk Ya.V.

    There was no such dynasty! Daniil Romanovich Galitsky was from the genus of Rurikovich (on the male line).

    ... You cannot explain to me a "fool" how Mongols from the 19th century "teleported or landed" in the 13th century. Time machines have not yet been invented .. How adequate are you at all? Or are you zombified by a history teacher at school, as zombified by "Ukrainians" with their Svidomo- ".. The Black Sea was dug up with spoons by ancient" Ukrainians .. "
    1. V.ic
      V.ic 10 July 2016 15: 31
      -1
      Quote: ver_
      Quote: V.ic
      In 1258 was Romanovich capitulated to the Mongols and ... Author Pilipchuk Ya.V.
      There was no such dynasty! Daniil Romanovich Galitsky was from the genus of Rurikovich (on the male line).
      ...You can't me "fool" explain how Mongols from the 19th century "teleported or landed" in the 13th century. Time machines haven't been invented yet. (1) How adequate are you in general? (2) Or are you zombified by a history teacher at school (3), as zombified by "Ukrainians" with their Svidomo - ".. The Black Sea was dug up with spoons by ancient" Ukrainians .. "

      (1) Dear, re-read my commentary and what you wrote - the comparability is the same as in the proverb about bouizm and uncle in Kiev. What exactly do you disagree with? If you are with yourself, then where am I? On the principle "here you are not here!"?
      (2) Is it necessary for you to evaluate your own adequacy, considering my adequacy as basic for you ??
      (3) From this I have the right to conclude that at school the story was not among your favorite subjects and the relationship with the teacher in this subject left much to be desired ...
      By the way, history was taught by a veteran who graduated from a pedagogical college in 1939, and after the war, in absentia, Leningrad State University. Strict, fair, always keeping his word. Eternal memory to Anatoly Vasilievich!
      1. ver_
        ver_ 10 July 2016 16: 19
        0
        .. I am not at all interested in who taught you history and your site epaulettes ..
        And I can only note that in history you are far from Copenhagen ..
        1. V.ic
          V.ic 10 July 2016 18: 46
          0
          Quote: ver_
          And I can only note that in history you are far from Copenhagen ..

          Absolutely not Copenhagen, not Tel Aviv or even Moohosransk. Do not drink "strong" drinks in the morning / and in the evening too / and keep your health and your conscience!
          But, still, you did not answer (1). Therefore, I repeat, for "repetition = mother of learning," so: Dear, re-read my commentary and what you wrote - the comparability is the same as in the proverb about bouizm and uncle in Kiev. What exactly do you disagree with? If you are with yourself, then where am I? On the principle "here you are not here!"?
          What do you specifically disagree with in my commentary (in blue) /, which decided to stir up the discussion?
  14. Mengad
    Mengad 10 July 2016 16: 33
    0
    Quote: Max_Bauder
    first listen to this


    Did you obviously sit and listen with their mouths open? laughing You need to listen and you can but don’t forget to turn on the brain and analyze the information received smile And yet, do not make idols and authorities for yourself, otherwise you will be a blind sheep, be smarter. hi
  15. Mengad
    Mengad 10 July 2016 16: 36
    +2
    Quote: ver_
    .. for especially gifted connoisseurs of history, I repeat once again: all the "antiquity" of China was written by falsifiers in the 17th century, and the antiquity of Mongolia in the 19th century - your shoulder straps do not correspond to your historical knowledge - sometimes a cow flies ..

    Izuites played an important role in this. I agree with you. hi
  16. Mengad
    Mengad 10 July 2016 19: 14
    +1
    Quote: Aposlya
    Quote: Mengad
    How so? built a few thousand kilometers of clay wall and then on you! Sorry, but in this version my mogz resists believing


    Well, yes, it’s easier to believe Fomenko or Levashov that it’s supposed that the ancient Russians built a wall for China! laughing
    You would at least read historical research then, at least the same Chinese annals where it was written that the ancient Chinese (Han) principalities fought with these Huns in the 23rd century BC.
    In China, not one, but several walls, I don’t remember the exact number, but it seems like about eight. Those. by these remains of the walls one can also trace how the Chinese emperors conquered lands from the south to the north ...

    Do you know? the data provided here in the posts would probably have made an adequate person think and ask simple questions: really and why so? And look for the answer to the asked question, and look for the answer from available sources. But this doesn’t apply to you, everything you learned like a parrot. And what about Fomenko and Nosovsky? Yes, they realize that they can be wrong, and talk about it. But people like you believe everything that the so-called historians stuff into you in academic science, you are their slaves but you consider yourself free .... parrots wink Be wiser.
  17. Mengad
    Mengad 10 July 2016 19: 50
    0
    Quote: V.ic
    Quote: ver_
    Quote: V.ic
    In 1258 was Romanovich capitulated to the Mongols and ... Author Pilipchuk Ya.V.
    There was no such dynasty! Daniil Romanovich Galitsky was from the genus of Rurikovich (on the male line).
    ...You can't me "fool" explain how Mongols from the 19th century "teleported or landed" in the 13th century. Time machines haven't been invented yet. (1) How adequate are you in general? (2) Or are you zombified by a history teacher at school (3), as zombified by "Ukrainians" with their Svidomo - ".. The Black Sea was dug up with spoons by ancient" Ukrainians .. "

    (1) Dear, re-read my commentary and what you wrote - the comparability is the same as in the proverb about bouizm and uncle in Kiev. What exactly do you disagree with? If you are with yourself, then where am I? On the principle "here you are not here!"?
    (2) Is it necessary for you to evaluate your own adequacy, considering my adequacy as basic for you ??
    (3) From this I have the right to conclude that at school the story was not among your favorite subjects and the relationship with the teacher in this subject left much to be desired ...
    By the way, history was taught by a veteran who graduated from a pedagogical college in 1939, and after the war, in absentia, Leningrad State University. Strict, fair, always keeping his word. Eternal memory to Anatoly Vasilievich!

    How can you say what is a hypothesis! Built on someone’s opinion is often simply unproven. Here tell me where you got that Galitsky from kind so-called Rurikovich? Well?
    1. V.ic
      V.ic 10 July 2016 20: 42
      0
      Quote: Mengad
      .Here tell me where did you get that Galitsky from the kind of so-called Rurikovich? Well?

      I don’t need to poke me, I’m not a horse and, unlike some, I don’t.
      It’s enough to type the cherished words in the search line Family tree of Roman Galitsky and it will open to you.
      Here, for example, is the link: http://www.historycivilizations.ru/library/historyrussia2/pic/000002.gif
      Open it and carefully look at the second position from the top in the third column.
      To complete your happiness, I also attach a picture from the link: https://www.myheritage.com/person-1000083_46715182_46715182/daniel-romanovich-
      zy-galitsky-1-st-king-russia-1254—1264-xii? lang = RU
      I also have on my shelf the pre-revolutionary edition "History of Russia from Ancient Times" by S.M. Solovyov, there is an insert in front of page 670. On this tab, Roman Galitsky is indicated in the first column and fourth position from the top. Is it enough for you?
  18. Mengad
    Mengad 10 July 2016 22: 54
    0
    Quote: V.ic
    Quote: Mengad
    .Here tell me where did you get that Galitsky from the kind of so-called Rurikovich? Well?

    I don’t need to poke me, I’m not a horse and, unlike some, I don’t.
    It’s enough to type the cherished words in the search line Family tree of Roman Galitsky and it will open to you.
    Here, for example, is the link: http://www.historycivilizations.ru/library/historyrussia2/pic/000002.gif
    Open it and carefully look at the second position from the top in the third column.
    To complete your happiness, I also attach a picture from the link: https://www.myheritage.com/person-1000083_46715182_46715182/daniel-romanovich-

    zy-galitsky-1-st-king-russia-1254—1264-xii? lang = RU
    I also have on my shelf the pre-revolutionary edition "History of Russia from Ancient Times" by S.M. Solovyov, there is an insert in front of page 670. On this tab, Roman Galitsky is indicated in the first column and fourth position from the top. Is it enough for you?

    Very interesting and informative. laughing Already the King of Russia! wink Let me ask you a question, what about Comrade Rurik? Is the person controversial, even this doesn’t bother you with academic leaders? laughing
    1. V.ic
      V.ic 10 July 2016 23: 38
      -1
      Quote: Mengad
      Already the King of Russia!

      The pope announced this. I have nothing to do with it.
      Quote: Mengad
      Let me ask you a question, what about Comrade Rurik? Is the person controversial, even this doesn’t bother you with academic leaders?

      To begin with, it would be advisable for you to re-read the Russian language textbook for high school, for example, in the form of self-education: http://sheba.spb.ru/shkola/ru-78-1974.htm
      And about Rurik: Nestor, listing the peoples, does not indicate the place of residence of the Varangians, although for others, for example, Danes and Swedes, he clearly localizes the area of ​​residence ... Guess three times why Nestor does not indicate the place of residence of the Vikings. Read "Rurik" by MN Zadornov. In his book there is a page where this name is indicated. Vladimir Chivilikhin adhered to a similar point of view in the essay novel "Memory". You should read this book too. My opinion about Rurik is that he was a leader from the tribe of the vigorous (encouraging) / "sitting" "about the Audra" /. / There is such a river in Europe. The border between Germany and Poland ends at the port of Szczecin (German: Stettin) ./
  19. Mengad
    Mengad 10 July 2016 23: 58
    0
    Quote: V.ic
    Quote: Mengad
    Already the King of Russia!

    The pope announced this. I have nothing to do with it.
    Quote: Mengad
    Let me ask you a question, what about Comrade Rurik? Is the person controversial, even this doesn’t bother you with academic leaders?

    To begin with, it would be advisable for you to re-read the Russian language textbook for high school, for example, in the form of self-education: http://sheba.spb.ru/shkola/ru-78-1974.htm
    And about Rurik: Nestor, listing the peoples, does not indicate the place of residence of the Varangians, although for others, for example, Danes and Swedes, he clearly localizes the area of ​​residence ... Guess three times why Nestor does not indicate the place of residence of the Vikings. Read "Rurik" by MN Zadornov. In his book there is a page where this name is indicated. Vladimir Chivilikhin adhered to a similar point of view in the essay novel "Memory". You should read this book too. My opinion about Rurik is that he was a leader from the tribe of the vigorous (encouraging) / "sitting" "about the Audra" /. / There is such a river in Europe. The border between Germany and Poland ends at the port of Szczecin (German: Stettin) ./

    I thank you for the recommendations on the authors of the books .. I will consider your proposal at the next meeting of analytical-historical self-conceit smile Well, Nestor is also a controversial figure .. well, then the hypothesis with the Prussian direction of Rurik so far has the right to live as others are being sought hi
    1. V.ic
      V.ic 11 July 2016 06: 42
      0
      Quote: Mengad
      I will consider your proposal at the next meeting of analytical-historical self-conceit

      And besides that negj to minus your "convolutions" do not strain? Instead of arguments to me, as an opponent on a dispute with whom you imposed, you rolled out only disgusting and dismissive "blah-blah-blah." Well, it will remain on your conscience if you have it. By the way, your "brother Ver_" has quieted down a bit, probably looking for a corresponding quote from "FomenkoNosovsky". If the compilers do not have their own thoughts, they try to steal someone else's.
      1. ver_
        ver_ 12 July 2016 16: 57
        +1
        ... unlike some die-hard marshals, I graduated from the college during the "stagnation", and did not study the humanities. Everything is fine with me both with logic and with analytics ..
        I have such a feeling that if the events of the 19th century (Mongols), a person transfers to the 12th century, which is impossible under any circumstances and defends it with foam at the mouth - this is clearly an inadequate person who has lost a sense of reality, therefore I do not see the point in the polemic ..
  20. Mengad
    Mengad 11 July 2016 07: 22
    +1
    Quote: V.ic
    Quote: Mengad
    I will consider your proposal at the next meeting of analytical-historical self-conceit

    And besides that negj to minus your "convolutions" do not strain? Instead of arguments to me, as an opponent on a dispute with whom you imposed, you rolled out only disgusting and dismissive "blah-blah-blah." Well, it will remain on your conscience if you have it. By the way, your "brother Ver_" has quieted down a bit, probably looking for a corresponding quote from "FomenkoNosovsky". If the compilers do not have their own thoughts, they try to steal someone else's.

    You beat me laughing I did not hear from you an answer to the account of Rurik and the chronicler Nestor, here is the answer to me. Here we are reasoning. Why are you so sure of this? I want to hear your version hi .
    1. V.ic
      V.ic 11 July 2016 08: 28
      0
      Quote: Mengad
      I did not hear from you an answer to the account of Rurik and the chronicler Nestor,

      Naturally, you're right, but I Wrote comment:
      V.ic (7) RU Yesterday, 23:38 p.m. ↑
      My opinion about Rurik is that it was the leader of the bodrichee (encouraged) / "sitting" "about Audre" /. / There is such a river in Europe. The border between Germany and Poland ends at the port of Szczecin (German: Stettin) ./
      What about Nestor? I suggested that you guess three times: why didn’t Nestor's place of residence for the Vikings be indicated? So according to the chronicler Nestor = hammer in the search bar chronicler Nestor and then press the "Enter" key. Read a couple of the suggested links. I don’t know exactly what you need to know. I didn't hire you as a tutor. Trolls are not interesting to me. Dixi.
      1. Aposlya
        Aposlya 11 July 2016 09: 31
        0
        Quote: V.ic
        Why are Nestor's places of residence of the Vikings not indicated?


        Nestor indicated that the Vikings came from overseas? Of course, these are not coordinates, but an approximate location, but giving an approximate idea of ​​the direction.
        If this is encouraged, as you suppose, then why do the Slavs have Scandinavian-Frankish names then? Karl, Horeb, Farlaf, Vermud, Rulav - these are not Slavic names at all ...
        Also, if we take into account that the Varangians came from beyond the Baltic, then the emboldened could not sail “because of”, they were just on the “same” side ...
        Although frankly, I do not consider Nestor's PVL to be a historical chronicle, it is rather just a retelling of myths, under the type of "Myths of Dr. Greece". Moreover, Musin-Pushkin, who was the first to publish them in the 18th century, was accused of forging these chronicles back in those days and not without reason, as well as forgery of "The Lay of Igor's Campaign", the Tmutarakan Stone, etc.
        1. V.ic
          V.ic 11 July 2016 10: 29
          -1
          Quote: Aposlya
          as you suggest, why do the Slavs have Scandinavian-Frankish names then? Charles, Horic, Farlaf, Vermud, Rulav - not Slavic names at all ...

          Why not? Just don't be cunning, it was about ambassadors (Karl, Farlaf, Vermud, Rulav). The ambassador / diplomatic representative does not have to be of the same nationality as the person who authorized him / the sale of Alaska - Baron Stekl - he is also the Saxon envoy (and at the same time the Russian one, for some reason). By the way, about "Horeb", Mentioned by you, immediately comes to mind =" Who, Cheek, Horeb and their sister Lybid. "
          Do you remember the bootleg about the names of the Dnieper rapids from Konstantin Bagryanorodny? I recently got material, read it, you won’t regret it! http://oldrus.livejournal.com/210341.html
          By the way, in the comments there is a very remarkable quote: "Remember the famous phrase of Jordan about how do different nations accept each other's names? It clearly sounds that the Sarmatians accept German names. After all, the Alans, or as you say the Ruhs-Alans, in terms of language are Sarmatians, Scythians. Maybe the Germanic and Celt-like names of that Russia can be explained."
          Ouspensky seems to have an idea that the vocabulary of a language has been updated by half in 500 years. So how many percent match the modern Russian language in comparison with the Slavic times of Konstantin Bagryanorodny ... 5% ... 10% ... 25%?
          1. Aposlya
            Aposlya 11 July 2016 16: 00
            0
            Quote: V.ic
            Why not? Just do not dissemble, it was about ambassadors (Karl, Farlaf, Vermud, Rulav). Ambassador / diplomatic representative does not have to be of the same nationality


            Something about hiring foreigners during Rurik's time is not known. Yes, and it’s possible it’s possible that Rurik, who came to Russia with his retinue, and inherited Oleg as regent, would entrust a diplomatic mission to a stranger ...
            Excerpt from PVL:
            "We are from a Russian clan - Karla, Inegeld, Farlaf, Veremud, Rulav, Guda, Ruald, Karn, Freelav, Ruar, Aktevu, Truan, Lidul, Fost, Stemid ..."
            It clearly states that these Karls and Truans are Russians. But then the Russians are not Slavs at all.
            Here are the Slavic names: Svyatoslav, Dobrozhir, Tikhomir, Ratibor, Yaropolk, Gostomysl, Velimudr, Vsevolod, Bogdan, Dobrogneva, Lyubomila, Mirolyub, Svetozar, Dobrynya, Tishilo, Rat (s), Putyata - they are understandable, as it is clear that these are Slavic names, not Frankish or Scandinavian ones.

            Quote: V.ic
            By the way, in the comments there is a very remarkable quote: "Remember the famous phrase of Jordan about how different peoples accept each other's names? It also clearly sounds that the Sarmatians accept Germanic names."

            According to one of the theories of the Sarmatians, or rather the Huns could have the same names with the Germanic peoples because they were mixed back in the days of the Hagan Attila, which the Germans themselves consider to be their first king, uniting the Germanic tribes.

            Quote: V.ic
            After all, the Alans, or as you say the Ruhs-Alans, in terms of language are Sarmatians, Scythians.

            We call the Alans - Alans, or their other name - Asa.

            Quote: V.ic
            Do you remember the bootleg about the names of the Dnieper rapids from Konstantin Bagryanorodny? I recently got material, read it, you won’t regret it! //oldrus.livejournal.com/210341.html

            Nobody takes this nonsense from the Caucasus "Alanutyh" seriously. It has long been proven that Ossetians have nothing to do with Alans.
  21. sibiryak10
    sibiryak10 11 July 2016 11: 45
    -1
    Fomenkovites with the name "Mongolia" are worn like a cat with a bubble. But not only "Mongolia" did not exist until the 20th century! For example, there was no "Turkey" either until the 20th century, there was the Ottoman Empire or Osmanli Devleti. And if it were not for Kemal with his Young Turks, then Turkey would have been pulled apart piece by piece by the neighbors.
  22. Mengad
    Mengad 11 July 2016 14: 56
    +1
    Quote: sibiryak10
    Fomenkovites with the name "Mongolia" are worn like a cat with a bubble. But not only "Mongolia" did not exist until the 20th century! For example, there was no "Turkey" either until the 20th century, there was the Ottoman Empire or Osmanli Devleti. And if it were not for Kemal with his Young Turks, then Turkey would have been pulled apart piece by piece by the neighbors.

    I also don’t see the difference, what difference did Europe attack the USSR in 1941? or Germany attacked the USSR in 1941. Fomenkovtsy with Nosovsky are such cranks laughing
  23. Jääkorppi
    Jääkorppi 22 July 2016 13: 04
    0
    Avars, Huns, Kipchaks settled on the territory of Hungary and as a result, despite the Finno-Ugric, Hungarians are genetically closer to the Turks. Everything is mixed in this world.