Military Review

Rivals Shpagin submachine gun. Part two

98
26 April 1942, the war has been going on for almost a year. The Red Army was able to recover from the unsuccessful start of the war, with the upcoming summer campaign and the Red Army and the Wehrmacht pin great hopes. At the same time, in the rear, the evacuated Soviet industry is increasing the output of military products, so necessary to the front. Gunsmith designers also work and develop new models based on real combat experience. weaponsincluding submachine guns. The second stage of the competition for the creation of a new submachine gun for the Red Army took place from April 26 to May 12 1942. It was then that the star of Alexei Ivanovich Sudayev and his brainchild - PPS rose.


Alexey Ivanovich Sudaev entered history small arms as the creator of one of the best submachine guns of the Second World War. He was the first of the Soviet designers in the 1944 year created a prototype of a machine gun chambered for 7,62x39 mm. Submitted by him in 1942 for testing the submachine gun was not inferior in combat qualities to the models of Degtyarev and Shpagin, but with the equipped magazine it was lighter than 1,7-1,8 kg, demanded in the manufacture of 2 times less metal and 3 times less labor costs.

Automation PPP worked under the scheme with a free gate. For firing from a submachine gun 7,62 × 25 TT cartridges were used. Shooting from PPP was conducted with an open shutter. Used trigger mechanism allowed firing only in automatic mode - bursts. The fuse was in front of the trigger guard. In the forward martial position of the submachine gun Sudaev's fuse was transferred by pressing the index finger before placing it on the trigger. The Soudaev submachine gun consisted of a barrel, a stamped receiver box, connected to the barrel casing by welding and riveting, a fire control handle and a butt. The metal butt of the submachine gun was made collapsible, it was folded up on the receiver box. Folding butt reduced the length of the weapon, which was one of the advantages of the model.

Rivals Shpagin submachine gun. Part two
Alexey Ivanovich Sudaev


To improve the accuracy of fire on it was used a simple but quite effective muzzle brake-compensator. Sights PPP consisted of a fly and flip-pillar, which was designed for distances 100 and 200 meters, these fixed positions were designated as "10" and "20". The most effective was shooting short bursts of 2-5 shots. The power of a submachine gun was carried out from box magazines with a capacity of 35 cartridges. At the same time, they were not interchangeable with PCA stores and had an outlet on the 2 cartridge, which greatly facilitated the process of their equipment and provided the weapon with greater reliability of work.

28 July 1942, the Sudaev submachine gun under the designation PPS-42 was put into service, and after some improvements in the 1943, it received a new designation PPS-43. Production of small arms was initially deployed in besieged Leningrad. The city was surrounded by enemy troops, the supply of weapons to it was hampered, and the front demanded replenishment. From the end of 1942 to June 1943, Alexey Sudayev worked in the besieged city. In this case, the designer did not sit out in the rear, he repeatedly traveled to the operating units at the Oranienbaum bridgehead and the Karelian Isthmus to look at his weapon in action. I communicated with fighters, listened to their wishes and comments. After these meetings, he made changes to the design of his weapon, if they were really useful. And although the PPS did not become as famous as the PPSH, during the war years they produced a sufficiently large number, more than 500 thousand PPS-42 and PPS-43.

His future submachine gun Sudaeva secured himself in a fairly tough competition. At the second stage of the competition for the new submachine gun for the Red Army, which was held from April 26 to 12 May 1942, 7 samples were presented:

1. Degtyarev PDM (KB plant number 2 named Kirkizh) number X NUMX and number X NUMX.
2. Bezruchko-Vysotsky PPV (Artakademiya).
3. Zaitsev (OKE. A. Nudelman) 16 and 1 samples.
4. Sudaeva (SCI).
5. Korovin (KB plant number XXUMX).
6. Rukavishnikova (SCA).
7. Ogorodova (NKVD).

PPS-42 and PPS-43


Already at the testing stage of the presented samples by firing it turned out that only Bezruchko-Vysotsky, Degtyaryov, Korovin, Rukavishnikov and Sudayev models would be allowed to further tests. So Ogorodova submachine gun was not debugged, giving up to 7,5% of delays, and its important details were not thermally processed, which led to the failure of the weapon after the 120 shots. The Zaitsev submachine gun was also incomplete, sample No. XXUMX gave 1% of delays, and sample No. XXUMX gave 15,4%, which was the reason for their removal from testing. The submachine gun presented by Rukavishnikov gave 2% delays when tested by shooting, however, due to the overall originality of the design, significantly different from other samples, he was admitted to some further tests to determine the accuracy of the fight, the effect of different conditions on the operation of its automation and others specifications. This was to help deal with the feasibility of further refinement of this sample.

Tests of the second stage of the competition for a new submachine gun were carried out under conditions that were as close as possible to the actual combat situation, based on the fire training course - KOP-38 and real combat episodes of the ongoing war. So, among other things, weapons were tested from a moving tank, and one of the tasks simulated an attack by partisans on a German convoy. During the tests, the best accuracy was shown by the Korovin submachine gun, followed by the Sudaev submachine gun with a slight margin. The members of the commission also checked the convenience of firing submachine guns in various positions of the shooter. The leader here was a modernized Degtyarev submachine gun. But the faculty also showed itself very well, limiting itself to the following remark: “Weapons are docile, but the draft of the butt creates inconvenience when using the handle. Uneven pace and uneven blows to the shooter's shoulder. The slot of the pillar is rather small, the eye is tired. The rest of the faculty does not create any inconvenience to the fighter when firing in all positions. "

The test program even included such an item as the convenience of firing a submachine gun from a tree. At the same time, the comments of the commission members arose only on the model of Bezruchko-Vysotsky, who was shaking badly, and on the model of Degyatrev, because of possible cases of pushing the shop latch by the knot that served as an arrow pointing, which led to the loss of the store. And when testing with a tank armor, oddly enough, the worst result was demonstrated by a sample of the Bezruchko-Vysotsky design, despite the fact that it was the only submachine gun with a tank stop. The best were the designs of Sudayev and Korovin.

Submachine gun system Bezruchko-Vysotsky


The next stage, which again sifted out part of the competitors, was the test of the reliability of the automation and the survivability of the weapon. Shooting at the survivability of a submachine gun was carried out with normal lubrication with short bursts and whole shops (on 30-35 cartridges) until 15 thousand shots were reached. After every 150 of shots, the barrel of the weapon cooled, after one thousand shots were completed, inspection, cleaning and lubrication of the submachine gun followed. The control shooting of weapons on the accuracy of the battle was repeated through 5 thousands of shots. At this stage, the Tula sample of Korovin was cut off, which gave 4,7% delays during 3917 shots. The reason, according to testers, was the wrong choice designer size of the chamber.

In the process of testing the survivability of weapons from samples of Bezruchko-Vysotsky, Degtyarev and Sudayev, the accuracy of the battle was checked every 5 thousand shots (3 series on 20 cartridges on 100 meters with a single fire from the stop). By the time the tests were completed, the accuracy of combat at the Degtyaryov and Sudayev submachine guns remained at about the same level, and in the Bezruchko-Vysotsky sample, it deteriorated approximately 2 times to 10 thousands of shots and 4 times to 15 thousands of shots. The deterioration of the accuracy of the battle in this model submachine gun depended solely on the wear of the barrel due to its poor condition. In the end result, only three samples were allowed to test for reliability: Bezruchko-Vysotsky, Degtyarev and Sudayev.

The conditions of this test were as follows:
1. Firing at elevation and declination angles close to 90 degrees.
2. Firing a weapon after dusting it with cement dust in a special box and blowing it with furs for 5 minutes while the sample is on one side and 5 minutes on the other side (the sample was lying on stands without touching the bottom, the store was inserted, spare stores were also in dust box with sample).
3. Firing when washed with kerosene and wiped dry parts of weapons.
4. Firing with grease guns guns.

The best results on the results of tests for reliability were shown by two submachine guns - Bezruchko-Vysotsky and Sudayev. At the same time, the results of the Sudayev submachine gun were particularly prominent. 15 405 shots were fired from the weapon and total 0,19% delays were received. Of these, with normal lubrication - 13 985 shots and 0,18% delays, under various conditions - 1420 shots with 0,3% delays.

PPSH-2


For a better test of the operation of the automatics, the samples of Bezruchko-Vysotsky and Sudayev were subjected to additional tests: 1) shooting cartridges that were heated in a thermostat to + 60 degrees Celsius. The only result of this test was a reduction in the rate of fire of the Bezruchko-Vysotsky submachine gun; 2) shooting with the overcoming of a water obstacle by the shooter and the subsequent crawling along the sandy stretch of the coast. It turned out that the design of Sudayev was more reliable, the submachine gun was less sensitive to the ingress of sand. At the same time, the Bezruchko-Vysotsky submachine gun refused to work in all cases, and only after washing it in water again was it operational. Especially testers noted the unsatisfactory fastening of the lid of the shop in a Bezruchko-Vysotsky submachine gun. After testing for serviceability (throws from a two-meter height onto two types of surface: pavement, paved with sandstone and tamped sandy soil), the sample of Sudayev turned out to be better.

An important fact, which was established during the tests, was the unequivocal conclusion of the commission about the advantages of stores with double-row cartridges from both their reliability and the convenience of equipping such stores.

The tests of submachine guns would not have been completed without the new Shpagin model. From 30 May to 2 June, additional tests of its PPSH-2 were conducted at the NIHTPL. This submachine gun used automatics with a free gate. The fire from it was conducted from the open bolt, firing was allowed only in automatic mode. The role of the fuse on the PPSH-2 was performed by a folding dust cover of the groove for the charging handle, which had two cutouts for fixing the handle when the cover is closed and the front or back position of the weapon shutter. Meals were supplied from double row detachable box stores. The butt of the submachine gun was wooden, detachable (such a decision was considered by the military as a lack of weapons due to the possibility of losing the butt in battle), while PPSH-2 could shoot with the butt removed. In the design of the submachine gun was widely used stamping from steel sheet, on the muzzle of the barrel there was a compensator toss the barrel.

The technological assessment of the new challenger has shown that a worthy competitor has appeared in the competition for a new submachine gun for the Red Army. In the opinion of experts about this sample, it was said that it possesses better indicators than the sample of Sudayev, with the exception of efficiency and metal consumption, where PPP is better. Also PPSH-2 showed a lower rate of fire and the best indicators of survivability and the number of costs. However, a significant lack of weapons was low accuracy when firing bursts. According to the testers, this was due to the fact that the designer unsuccessfully selected the dimensions of the wooden butt and used the unfortunate construction of the compensator.

Soviet soldiers with PPP during the fighting in Budapest


The results of the second stage of the competition and additional tests with the participation of PPSH-2 were reviewed by a special plenum of the Artillery Committee of the Red Army Army GAN 17 on June 1942. At the same time, there was no unambiguous decision in favor of one or another sample. The Sudaev submachine gun was a little better in terms of “combat” indicators, and the PPSH-2 was slightly better in terms of technology. Both options still required some refinement, and the designers promised to bring their samples to the mind and meet the tactical and technical requirements as soon as possible. As a result, the final selection of a new submachine gun for the Red Army was again delayed.

As a result, the final “race” with the participation of the last applicants took place from 17 to 21 in July 1942. Both samples were tested on a special program of the Artillery Committee GAU. The tests were quite tough: the samples had to be dragged 10-15 meters across the sand with a rope tied to the butt, then wipe the bore and shoot: 70 shots (2 magazine). Also, the testers checked the reliability of the automatics of the weapon by making 1000 shots from each submachine gun without first cleaning the weapon and without interruptions designed to cool the barrel in the process of firing. The reliability of the automatic operation of the weapon at very low temperatures was also checked. Submachine guns were cleaned, lubricated with winter rifle grease and placed in a box with carbon dioxide at a temperature of -50 degrees Celsius, where they held 2 hours. Equipped shops were attached to the weapon. And if the freeze test could not withstand both submachine guns, the firing on reliability showed a clear superiority of the Sudayev system. When the weapon was contaminated with fine sand, the PPSH-2 gave 12,7% delays (147 to 1153 shots), and the future PPP - only 5,9% (68 to 1155 shots).

It is safe to say that it was this test that was decisive in the fate of the future faculty. Commission members concluded that the new Shpagin PPSH-2 submachine gun, in terms of the number of delays when firing under conditions of heavy pollution, did not withstand competitive tests. At the same time, the competition between the two designers started at the test site was transferred to the bureaucratic / paper plane, where not only the results obtained were important, but also the posts of supporters of a particular model of a submachine gun. In this regard, PPSH-2 did everything quite well, since the People's Commissar of Arms of Ustinov personally acted as his advocate. As a result, JV Stalin was personally able to resolve the dispute between two designers, who ordered to issue for the military tests on 1000 pieces of submachine guns of both models. In this case, the final choice in favor of PPP was made already in 1943 year. And he justified himself: the submachine gun remained in service after the end of the Second World War. And his copies were made not only in the countries of the socialist camp, but also in Finland, Germany and Spain. In the last two countries, the Finnish version of the 9х19 mm cartridge was issued in small batches.

Information sources:
http://warspot.ru/3402-pistolet-pulemyot-dlya-krasnoy-armii-shpagin-protiv-sudaeva
http://www.worldweapon.info/sudaev
http://www.armoury-online.ru/articles/smg/ru/pps-43
http://world.guns.ru/smg/rus/ppsh-2-r.html
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  1. AUL
    AUL 4 July 2016 07: 58
    12
    PPS in all respects exceeded PPSh - both in combat, and in technological, and in economic terms. And he went in "small" series only because it was risky to readjust production during the war.
    1. Alf
      Alf 4 July 2016 17: 05
      +3
      Quote: AUL
      PPS in all respects exceeded PPSh - both in combat, and in technological, and in economic terms. And he went in "small" series only because it was risky to readjust production during the war.

      And "remarkably" suited for hand-to-hand combat because of the stock.
    2. Droid
      Droid 5 July 2016 21: 54
      +1
      Not for everyone. Accuracy of PPSh automatic fire from unstable positions was up to 2 times better than that of PPS.
    3. Mushroom
      Mushroom 27 September 2016 00: 25
      0
      the soldiers spat on the PPS - they often switched to PPS again although PPS was a dull gumm (read the complaints from the front to the avods)
  2. atos_kin
    atos_kin 4 July 2016 08: 23
    18
    personally resolved the dispute between the two designers personally I. V. Stalin

    Democrats and bloggers did not ask smile
    1. moskowit
      moskowit 4 July 2016 12: 23
      +7
      And I did not listen to sofa "strategists", "political scientists" and "analysts" either ... stop sad
    2. Malkor
      Malkor 4 July 2016 16: 56
      0
      That's right - only practice has revealed the winner.
      We with Kalashnikov and Degtyarev plants would choose one model better, and then produce them at both plants.
  3. booki
    booki 4 July 2016 08: 33
    -23 qualifying.
    Quote: Yuferev Sergey
    For firing a submachine gun used cartridges 7,62 × 25 TT.

    This is the verdict for any "army weapon" on this cartridge. Because This cartridge was originally created for hunting rabbits and small game. A man differs from a rabbit quite noticeably.
    1. Aviagr
      Aviagr 4 July 2016 09: 10
      +6
      On the contrary: the most balanced cartridge! I'm going to use it in my double-barreled recoilless machine gun for UAVs for "harassing" fire on barmaley and shaitanmobiles, as well as as a fighter for similar UAVs. The main thing is the selection of the length of the barrel and the gas outlet automation (a lot of useful energy is lost on the free bolt). The effective range is planned at 300-500m, but the caliber allows you to have on board bоlower ammunition, and relatively weak energy - and lower returns, which VERY important for LA. I will try to level these additional returns with a satisfactory level. No one has ever proposed such kinematics. Strategic partners for cooperation are invited.
      1. booki
        booki 4 July 2016 09: 26
        -34 qualifying.
        Quote: Aviagr
        On the contrary: the most balanced cartridge!

        Learn the basics of wound ballistics. You need.
        Quote: Aviagr
        I'm going to use it in my double-barreled recoilless machine gun for UAVs for "harassing" fire on barmaley and shaitanmobiles, as well as as a fighter for similar UAVs.

        Successes. Although, where do they come from. From a lame seed, do not expect a good tribe.
        You can offer your UAVs as an alternative means of hunting rabbits and small game. Advanced such.
        1. Signore Tomato
          Signore Tomato 24 September 2016 12: 31
          0
          Quote: booki

          Successes. Although, where do they come from. From a lame seed, do not expect a good tribe.
          You can offer your UAVs as an alternative means of hunting rabbits and small game. Advanced such.


          Judging by you, the 5,45x39 cartridge should not exist at all.
          Nevertheless, the SA (Soviet Army, if you remember) was armed, basically, with AK 5,45x39 cartridge.
          And democrats and bloggers can anneal further.
      2. Felix99
        Felix99 4 July 2016 09: 55
        +1
        Place the machine gun vis-a-vis backwards as in TU-2Sh, recoil will slow down the UAV, but rather push it. For example, the gun in the A-10 directed forward greatly interferes with the piloting of the aircraft. https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAU-8_Avenger#.D0.9E.D1.82.D0.B4.D0.B0.D1.87.D0.B0
        1. Aviagr
          Aviagr 4 July 2016 10: 50
          +2
          To shoot down similar UAVs, and possibly cruise missiles, a turret is needed. Although for barmaleys and shaitanmobiles, the installation will be initially stationary.
          The problem is not to stop the UAV, but to withdraw from the line of sight, destroying vibrations. So the TT cartridge is just balanced both in the range of the direct shot and in minimizing the recoil, i.e. accuracy.
          And instead of dozens of machine guns on one aircraft, it is easier and more reliable to make dozens of aircraft (UAVs) themselves - they will still be shot down, this is a consumable for almost 1-2 departure. So I proceeded from this concept.
          But there will also be analogues of the S-8, S-8K and "air-to-air" - i.e. a complete set for any purpose.
    2. AK64
      AK64 4 July 2016 09: 36
      +7
      This is the verdict for any "army weapon" on this cartridge. Because This cartridge was originally created for hunting rabbits and small game. A man differs from a rabbit quite noticeably.


      Honestly, I’m fed up with your boorish and deceitful howls.

      PP, almost any PP, remodel from a cartridge 7.62 to a 9mm cartridge, and even 11mm - this is a pretty trivial matter. And this does not apply to the quality of the design, that is, to the evaluation of the work of the designer.

      So the faculty converted to 9mm at first the Finns, then, from the Finnish pitch, the Spaniards began to produce it at 9mm. Well, the border guards of the FRG armed themselves with the 9mm clone of the PPS.

      Lie further.
      1. booki
        booki 4 July 2016 10: 06
        -14 qualifying.
        Quote: AK64
        Honestly, I’m fed up with your boorish and deceitful howls.

        Honestly, I don't care. What are you and where fed up.
        In order to understand the purpose of the 7,65 × 25 mm Borchardt cartridge (the pedigree of the 7,62x25 mm TT cartridge comes from it), you need to know at least 1 thing out of two:
        1. Why the pistol was created (in the advertisement they wrote a pistol-carbine) Borchardt C93 and the cartridge for it. And it was created as "the best weapon of travelers". Those. it was no longer an army weapon. So, shoot a trifle for dinner, and drive the savages away.
        2. At least the basics of wound ballistics.
        You have no knowledge of the points above. From this and this is your constant discomfort.
        Quote: AK64
        PP, almost any PP, remodel from a cartridge 7.62 to a 9mm cartridge, and even 11mm - this is a pretty trivial matter.

        At the same time, the cartridge line must be redone. And somehow not completely, some of the weapons will still be in the caliber of 7,62 mm. But this is already a big problem, because cartridge lines need two.
        By the way, all the "extremely successful and legendary" weapons on the TT cartridge after the war and as a result of the war were asked from the army with a kick. What is it for? Explain to me, deceitful cryptor. If you can, of course. And then look, another "puddle" for you is already at your side. He's waiting, sir.
        Quote: AK64
        So the faculty converted to 9mm at first the Finns, then, from the Finnish pitch, the Spaniards began to produce it at 9mm. Well, the border guards of the FRG armed themselves with the 9mm clone of the PPS.
        Lie further.

        Enchanting. With your examples, you only confirmed what I wrote about the TT cartridge unsuitable for the army. But they provided all this with the final inscription "Lie on." Have you forgotten the Russian language in Spain? Have a hard time accepting the meaning of what you've written? Then why write? You'd better just read. More useful.
        1. AK64
          AK64 4 July 2016 10: 16
          +9
          Honestly, I don't care. What are you and where fed up.


          I say: boor. Moreover, the tram.

          So lie further.
          1. booki
            booki 4 July 2016 10: 23
            -13 qualifying.
            Quote: AK64
            I say: boor. Moreover, the tram.

            God, how anxiously everyone should catch your whims. This he wants to hear, this does not want. Are you there, in Spain, not working as a Turkish Sultan?
            Quote: AK64
            So lie further.

            In fact, this is not the first time I have heard about "lies" from you. You are doing well with the statements. The evidence for your position is bad. Usually such people are called "windbag". Keep this in mind, a very similar case.
            1. AK64
              AK64 4 July 2016 10: 51
              +5
              With evidence of your position is bad.


              And what's the point of wasting time on you?
              You obviously have more free time than mine.
              Yes, and they will throw you out now - appear tomorrow under a different nickname (which allows you to be a boor without special looking at)

              So why will I spend my time on you?
              1. booki
                booki 4 July 2016 11: 12
                -13 qualifying.
                Quote: AK64
                So why will I spend my time on you?

                I understand you, there is nothing to tell you. There was no need to write so much for this.
                PS. Don't worry. Here most of the same "specialists" as you. You can even say that you stand out for the better. Because be rude not every time, but only every other time. And from time to time, write the right stuff.
            2. murriou
              murriou 26 September 2016 15: 11
              +1
              Usually such people are called "windbag". Keep this in mind, a very similar case.

              You, booki, managed to give a very accurate self-characterization lol
    3. Felix99
      Felix99 4 July 2016 09: 46
      10
      What is characteristic is the range of the cartridge and the fact that it pierces the body armor. As for rabbits, the Mauser S-96, CZ-52, TT, Tu-2Sh and other masterpieces of weapons art were created specifically for hunting rabbits.
      1. AK64
        AK64 4 July 2016 10: 14
        +5
        Mauser S-96, CZ-52, TT, Tu-2Sh and other masterpieces of weapons art were created specifically for hunting rabbits.


        These are all very, very dubious "masterpieces". Especially the Tu-2Sh.
        Not the Tu-2 in itself, namely Ш
      2. booki
        booki 4 July 2016 10: 17
        -11 qualifying.
        Quote: Felix99
        and the fact that he breaks through a bulletproof vest.

        During the Second World War, this was not relevant.
        Quote: Felix99
        TT ... other masterpieces of weapons art

        Too shy to ask, what is the masterpiece of the TT?
        Yes, and here's another, What kind of funny pictures did you post? What is this for? Do you want to demonstrate that professionalism in the field of armaments in the USSR in those years was lower than the plinth?
    4. Sedoy
      Sedoy 27 September 2016 14: 09
      +1
      Quote: booki
      This cartridge was originally created for hunting rabbits and small game.

      -------------------------------------------------

      “The high-speed cartridge 7,62x25 TT has always posed a serious threat to police officers in many countries of the world. For example, police officers of the Royal Hong Kong Police put on reinforced body armor of the third class of protection A + before going on duty, since they often face criminals armed with TT pistols. a pistol of 10 mm "auto" caliber, penetrates only half of the vests of the second class of protection (a regular vest of the US police), while a "tetesh" bullet "sews" this vest through and through.
  4. K.Shimada
    K.Shimada 4 July 2016 08: 41
    +3
    I read in a number of publications that faculty members are considered the best submachine gun of the Second World War.
    Its only drawback was the inability to shoot solitary.
    1. booki
      booki 4 July 2016 09: 29
      -17 qualifying.
      Quote: K.Shimada
      I read in a number of publications that faculty members are considered the best submachine gun of the Second World War.

      And in a number of publications I read about meetings of people with reptilians. However, I doubt that this is true. And you would be nice to doubt. With a cartridge of 7,62 × 25 TT.
      By the way, according to the results of the war, the Soviet vandervafles on such a cartridge from the army flooded everything. Have you ever wondered why this is?
      1. AK64
        AK64 4 July 2016 10: 01
        13
        I tried not to answer this boor ...
        Okay...

        Here is an example of "logic"
        By the way, according to the results of the war, the Soviet van der wafers on such a cartridge from the army flooded everything. Have you ever wondered why this is?


        And is it nothing that all the PPs, on any cartridge, of all normal armies were flooded the same way?
        The only army that has been rushing with the PP for quite some time is Israel - but this is from poverty.
        1. booki
          booki 4 July 2016 10: 17
          -17 qualifying.
          Quote: AK64
          And is it nothing that all the PPs, on any cartridge, of all normal armies were flooded the same way?

          No, my dear, your "logic" does not work.
          They also shot down the grand colossal TT pistol on the same cartridge. At the same time, strangely enough, the pistols in the army themselves were not canceled. Those. not only the submachine guns were flooded, but in general everything that was on the TT cartridge.
          And you unlearn to read selectively. And read what is written in full. And then it turns out badly. Looks like juggling.
          Quote: AK64
          Okay...

          Still, some are better off chewing than talking. Everything that they don’t say, everything is not in the box. As a result, in the dry residue only rudeness remains.
      2. gross kaput
        gross kaput 4 July 2016 12: 30
        15
        Quote: booki
        By the way, according to the results of the war, the Soviet van der wafers on such a cartridge from the army

        Have you heard about 7.62X39? not? By the way, following the results of the war, they asked from the army and mosquitoes with maxims - didn’t they hear it?
        Quote: booki
        At the same time, the cartridge line must be redone. And somehow not completely, some of the weapons will still be in the caliber of 7,62 mm. But this is already a big problem, because cartridge lines need two.

        Only in the union, however, they were not really worried about this - Yuryuzan riveted TT cartridges and guns until the end of the 80s, the TT was in service in the rear units until the beginning of the 90s.
        As for the results of the war and the "removal from service" of the TT cartridge following the results of the war, the infantryman's standard weapon was to be an automatic rifle and a self-loading carbine under 7,62X39 with the simultaneous withdrawal from the weapon system of rifles and Mosin carbines and submachine guns, as a result, and the pistol cartridge became needed only for pistols, and just after the war, the power of the TTeshny cartridge exclusively for the pistol was considered excessive and they decided to develop a pistol according to a simpler free-slide scheme. Initially, three cartridges were planned for testing 7,65x17, 9X17, and at that time only the projected 9X18 with the maximum possible energy for a free shutter.
        So for the year that you graze on VO knowledge you have not increased, only collected a collection of nicknames, it’s good to at least once again have a barrel organ about the effective range of PPSh of 30 meters. laughing
        1. booki
          booki 4 July 2016 12: 46
          -14 qualifying.
          Quote: gross kaput
          Have you heard about 7.62X39? not? By the way, following the results of the war, they asked from the army and mosquitoes with maxims - didn’t they hear it?

          No, have not heard. But I heard that the TT pistol was also asked. Why would it be so good on such a good cartridge? And they asked.
          Quote: gross kaput
          Only here in the union something like this is not particularly worried about this

          Very worried. Grandiose, one might say. But before and during the Second World War. And after it there were a lot of these lines in the USSR. And the experiences disappeared.
          Quote: gross kaput
          and just the same, at the end of the war, the power of the TT cartridge exclusively for the pistol was considered excessive and decided to develop the pistol according to a simpler free shutter

          Maybe they did, those "experts" in the USSR were engaged in weapons. So funny "Kalashnikov assault rifles" were adopted, and then, in the 70s, they did not know where to drain them, to whom to give them "for friendship."
          Only this does not seem to be true, if the gun is good, then why change it? Let me remind you that the TT cartridge was taken to the TT pistol, and the submachine gun, this is a by-product, leaning against the main one only from the side. So, the problems were in the cartridge itself, because this is the most important thing in small arms. And the calculations clearly demonstrate that rubbish was the cartridge of the TT for the army. And from this all the weapons on it. Designed for hunting gophers, it was not categorically suitable for the army.
          Quote: gross kaput
          So for the year that you graze in the knowledge you have not increased

          Another "swineherd" is crammed into my friend.
          And, what is the most ridiculous, he still talks about something "for knowledge".
          Quote: gross kaput
          well at least again the barrel organ about the effective range of the PPSh at 30 meters did not start

          DEP, sclerotic. Effective engagement range or lethal range. The PPSh had 35 m at a rate of 100 m, the TT had 0 (zero) m at a rate of 50 m. This is what it was, "the legendary Soviet weapon on the legendary TT cartridge." Not without reason after the Second World War he was asked from the army with a kick.
    2. Berkut24
      Berkut24 4 July 2016 14: 18
      10
      I will add that this PP was the most popular among scouts and crews of tanks due to its low weight and dimensions.
      In addition, PPP was a great success in other countries:
      Finland - in 1944, at the Tikkakoski factory under the m / 44 brand, production of the 9-mm PPS-43 modification (chambered for the 9 × 19 mm Luger cartridge) was launched, using stores from Suomi. In total, about 10,4 thousand units were produced. such submachine guns. In 1957-1958, m / 44 was in service with Finnish UN peacekeepers on the Sinai Peninsula.

      The Finnish variant m / 44 was produced under license by small parties in West Germany and Spain under the designation DUX 53 and in 1953-1959 was in service with the German border guard (Bundesgrenzschutz).

      NDP - under the name "PPS wz.1943 / 1952" from 1948 to 1955, an option was made with an awkward wooden butt instead of a folding shoulder rest.

      PRC - after the end of World War II, it was produced under the name "Type 54". Minor changes were made to the design and production technology due to adaptation to the characteristics of Chinese industry.

      DPRK - was produced after the end of World War II.

      Yugoslavia - supplies for the People's Liberation Army of Yugoslavia began in 1944, after the war remained in service under the name Automat 7.62 mm PPS M43 (s)

      AND OH HORROR !!! The third Reich - captured troopers under the name Maschinenpistole 719 (r) entered service with the Wehrmacht, SS and other paramilitary groups of Nazi Germany and its satellites. By the end of the war, German factories began to master the production of PPS-43 clones under the name MP-709 due to the fact that resources for the war were already chronically inadequate, PPS required little metal, and labor costs for its production were not at all comparable with other samples of the same German small arms. This is especially for those who believe that the faculty can only fill up the rabbit.
      1. oking
        oking 4 July 2016 15: 16
        -9
        Quote: Berkut24
        AND OH HORROR !!! The third Reich - captured troopers under the name Maschinenpistole 719 (r) entered service with the Wehrmacht, SS and other paramilitary groups of Nazi Germany and its satellites.

        And also Gewehr 252 came into their armament. This is a Russian rifle arr. 1891. That one, the royal release. A very good weapon?
        Quote: Berkut24
        This is especially for those who believe that the faculty can only fill up the rabbit.

        Who is this? You, probably? Because I have never seen such a claim. If you have problems understanding what is written in Russian, then deal with this your flaw.
        1. Svidetel 45
          Svidetel 45 6 July 2016 00: 53
          +3
          Yes, a good weapon, Mosin rifle arr. 1891, the practice of its application for many decades confirms this.
          1. oking
            oking 6 July 2016 17: 03
            -4
            Quote: Svidetel 45
            Mosin rifle arr. 1891

            This did not exist in principle. There was a Russian rifle arr. 1891 The Mosin rifle became a Russian three-ruler in 1930, with the adoption of the rifle arr. 1891/1930 Around the same time, it was scientifically proven that the USSR is the birthplace of elephants. Pink.
      2. The comment was deleted.
  5. igordok
    igordok 4 July 2016 08: 44
    +2
    Thank you.
    but was with the curb shop lighter than them on 1,7-1,8 ksh, required in the manufacture of 2 times less metal and 3 times less labor.

    Cool typo. But it is clear that the author typed the text manually.
  6. AK64
    AK64 4 July 2016 10: 22
    +2
    From the article

    And although PPS did not become as famous as PPSh, during the war they were released quite a large number, more than 500 thousand PPS-42 and PPS-43.


    In fact, "over a million pieces." And according to some sources (causing some doubts, however), even up to 2 million.
  7. X Y Z
    X Y Z 4 July 2016 10: 46
    +5
    At the same time, the competition between the two designers, which had begun at the training ground, was transferred to the bureaucratic / paper plane, where not only the results obtained were important, but also the positions of supporters of a particular submachine gun model.


    These traditional "games" of ours are the most disturbing in connection with the choice of the machine for the "Warrior"! To a greater extent, the choice will not be the results of military tests, but the ranks, stars and degrees of adherents of a particular model. It is highly probable that there are large corruption risks associated with the tender.
    1. Svidetel 45
      Svidetel 45 6 July 2016 01: 02
      +1
      The best judge when it is necessary to decide which model is better is military trials, and not uncles with big stars or posts, it is bad if indeed ambitions prevail over common sense and state interests.
  8. Kenneth
    Kenneth 4 July 2016 10: 58
    +1
    In the Cuban film I saw PPP. I wonder where else our fused old stocks.
    1. AK64
      AK64 4 July 2016 11: 10
      +2
      In the Cuban film I saw PPP. I wonder where else our fused old stocks.


      After the war, almost all of the allotment went to the Chinese.
      And from the Chinese already: Koreans and Vietnamese.
      And creeped out from there already.

      But note that the Chinese did not leave for themselves.

      In general, all PPs are equal to byak, and are equally unsuitable as army weapons. Only for driving and, say, all kinds of car crews, and for self-defense thereof
      1. Kenneth
        Kenneth 4 July 2016 13: 56
        +2
        In the film, the flamboyant lads in jumps and in any case were fired from the faculty and mostly from one hand.
      2. LastPS
        LastPS 16 January 2017 07: 12
        0
        I mean, the Chinese did not leave for themselves, they actually released it under the name Type 54, moreover, they also made a special version with a silencer.
  9. Operator
    Operator 4 July 2016 11: 27
    +4
    Submachine guns using an 7,62x25 mm cartridge were in demand as an army weapon with a firing range of up to 200 meters only until machine guns using an 7,62x39 mm cartridge appeared.

    The submachine guns that were produced after this were focused only on the use by law enforcement agencies with a firing range of 50 meters, for which the 9x19 mm cartridge is enough.
    1. booki
      booki 4 July 2016 11: 47
      -17 qualifying.
      Quote: Operator
      Submachine guns using a cartridge of 7,62x25 mm were in demand as an army weapon with a firing range of up to 200 meters

      Quote: Operator
      The submachine guns that were produced after this were focused only on the use by law enforcement agencies with a firing range of 50 meters, for which the 9x19 mm cartridge is enough.

      Mr. Operator. I hasten to inform you that:
      1. The standard range of submachine guns is and was a distance of about 100 m. By the way, it is the poet SMG Thompson called SMG, not MP. And SMG is translated, not as a submachine gun, as it is customary to "translate" in Runet.
      2. For army (and hunting) weapons there is such an indicator as "lethal range". Simply because a gopher or a person is different in structure from a piece of paper on a shooting range. So, the German MP40 has this range of about 60 m. Rubbish, not a submachine gun. And for PPSh it is 35 m. Therefore, it is "legendary". What is the demand from the legend?
      Quote: Operator
      only until the appearance of machines using a cartridge of 7,62x39 mm.

      But what about the TT pistol on the TT cartridge?
      By the way, I hope you are aware that the "assault rifles" on the 7,62x39 mm cartridge are actually not automatic weapons, but self-loading weapons with the ability to conduct automatic fire at close ones (submachine guns, that is, about 100 m) distances.
      1. Operator
        Operator 4 July 2016 12: 55
        +7
        Damn, you have forgotten how to read Russian - the aiming range from PPSh and PPS was not 100, but 200 meters, which was ensured by the initial speed of the 7,62-mm bullet in 500 m / s.
        The slop MP-40 submachine gun used by the Wehrmacht and your UPA had an aiming range of only 50 meters, which was determined by the braking initial velocity of the 9-mm bullet in 380 m / s.
        Those. at a distance of over 50 meters, no more / less stopping effect could be exerted by the 9-mm bullet by definition. And an army battle, unlike police operations, is fought precisely at great distances.

        You should at least watch the Soviet and modern chronicle of firing from AK-47 / AKM or recall the presence of a fighter with SVD in the rifle compartment (not to mention familiarizing yourself with the instructions of the SA on the tactics of battle of the rifle compartment) before flogging nonsense about the mission of the AK-47 / AKM for conducting a single fire in self-loading mode.
        Do not confuse God's gift (Kalashnikov assault rifle) with scrambled eggs (M-16 assault rifle) bully
        1. booki
          booki 4 July 2016 13: 19
          -9
          Quote: Operator
          aiming range from PPSh and PPS was

          Sighting range, this is one of many, and completely insignificant indicators for army weapons. This is not a poster firing paper at you.
          Quote: Operator
          The slop MP-40 submachine gun used by the Wehrmacht and your UPA had an aiming range of only 50 meters,

          Let's get together at 5 meters? And what, we finally crush the adversary technically.
          But in fact, the MP40 sights were marked at 200 m. And this is very suspicious.
          Quote: Operator
          Those. at a distance of over 50 meters, a 9 mm bullet could not have any larger / smaller stopping effect by definition.

          Yes? Are you firmly convinced of this? If I were you, I would not be in this not that firm, but generally sure. In addition, at 60 m, such a bad and weak bullet, with a high-quality hit (not right through, not tangentially), in any place was guaranteed to bring down the enemy to death. And at the PPSh, with its powerful and strong bullet, this effect was observed only at 35 meters. In addition, the PPSh bullet had a tendency to penetrate right through, and this is already a marriage in the "work" of army weapons.
          Quote: Operator
          Would you even watch the Soviet and modern chronicles of shooting from the AK-47 / AKM

          Or Goebbels?
          In addition, I want to remind you that all weapons on the "brilliant cartridge 7,62x39 mm" in the 70s were expelled from the army with a kick. Why do you think?
          Quote: Operator
          before flogging nonsense about the purpose of the AK-47 / AKM for firing a single fire in self-loading mode.

          I just understand what I'm writing about. Unlike you. And you are trying to argue with the obvious fact.
          Quote: Operator
          Do not confuse God's gift (Kalashnikov assault rifle) with scrambled eggs (M-16 assault rifle)

          I would change God's gift with fried eggs.
          In addition, the M-16, this is not an assault, but an army automatic rifle. But the AK-74, this is just an assault (i.e. weakened, defective army) automatic rifle. And the AK-47 / AKM is an assault (i.e., weakened, defective army) self-loading rifle with the ability to conduct automatic fire (usually at close range). By the way, the AK-47 / AKM concept itself was very strange and it had no analogues in the world (except for Germany during the Second World War). Of course, such originality turned into a complete collapse of this concept in the 70s of the last century. The world, it is also not made up of fools, they also understand what is needed for the army and how.
          Those. I recommend that you first learn the basics, and then argue.
          1. Operator
            Operator 4 July 2016 14: 41
            10
            The aiming range of firing from an army manual automatic small arms is determined not by your inventions, but by the throwing range of a grenade (40 meters or less) and the range of firing from self-loading manual small arms (300 meters or more). In this regard, the PPSh / PPS covered fire with a distance of 200-40 = 160 meters, and the slop MP-40 only 50-40 = 10 meters.

            If the suckers from ERMA attached to the MP-40 a retractable sight at 200 meters, then this only means that only an artilleryman by training could aim at the declared distance with a low-speed bullet bully

            In the instructions of the US Army 1960-1980, the M16 is called an assault rifle in order to distinguish it from the M14 automatic rifle, which was withdrawn from the army only in the 1990's. In the English and Russian-language special literature, the M16 is still called an assault with the aim of distinguishing it from the automatic rifles G3, FAL, CETME and others remaining in service with many countries.

            And AK-47 / AKM according to Soviet GOST is not called a rifle, but an automatic rifle, based on the length of its barrel in calibers - for you rogul, apparently, is a big surprise, as well as the fact that the capabilities of AK-47 were consciously sharpened by automatic fire from uncomfortable positions.
            1. oking
              oking 4 July 2016 15: 37
              -7
              Quote: Operator
              The aiming range of firing from an army manual automatic small arms is determined not by your inventions, but by the throwing range of a grenade (40 meters or less) and the range of firing from self-loading manual small arms (300 meters or more).

              Gee-gee. And she does not determine the range of the boot?
              In fact, when firing single shots, it is determined by the physiological ability of the eye to aim with an open sight. This is a range of 400 meters. For automatic weapons, this range is usually increased by 10%. That's all the "tricky arithmetic".
              Of course, this range is a full-fledged army weapon. And there are still a million surrogates. Starting from a service pistol (25 m), to an assault rifle (330 m).
              Quote: Operator
              In this regard, PPSh / PPS covered fire with a distance of 200-40 = 160 meters, and the slop MP-40 only 50-40 = 10 meters.

              Ohhhh. Well, nonsense. Submachine guns fire 100 meters. Closer (50 meters) army pistols fire. Further, at 200 m, carabiners (CARBINE, DO NOT MIX WITH SHORT RIFLE).
              Quote: Operator
              If the suckers from ERMA attached to the MP-40 a retractable sight 200 meters

              And then, natural suckers. They did not know that it was necessary to consult with the Operator.
              Quote: Operator
              only a gunner by training could aim at the declared distance with a low-speed bullet

              No, only a fighter pilot.
              Quote: Operator
              In the instructions of the US Army 1960-1980, the M16 is called an assault rifle

              The M16 was never officially an assault rifle and was never called that. Just because that would be wrong.
              But journalists could call her what you like.
              Moreover, an assault rifle is called a weapon for certain performance characteristics, and not because it uses intermediate power cartridges for firing.
              Quote: Operator
              In English and Russian-language special literature M16 is still called assault

              In the literature, it can be called a slingshot. This is the business of the "writers".
              Quote: Operator
              in order to distinguish from automatic rifles G3, FAL, CETME and others, remaining in service with many countries.

              So they differ noticeably. For starters, the M16 is SMG, and automatic rifles are AR.
              Quote: Operator
              And the AK-47 / AKM, according to the Soviet GOST, is called not a rifle, but an automatic carbine,

              According to GOST 28653-90 AK-74, exactly like PPSh, and AKM was called automatic. And there were no automatic carbines in the USSR
              Quote: Operator
              as well as the fact that the capabilities of the AK-47 were deliberately imprisoned under automatic fire from uncomfortable positions.

              Learn the materiel. I'm tired of you. They write different ... all nonsense.
              1. Operator
                Operator 4 July 2016 17: 07
                +7
                Rogul, before publishing dill inventions on the Russian military portal, study the materiel:

                1. A small arms rifle or carbine is not called for its intended purpose (this is a derivative business), but for its constructive (barrel length in calibers, which is primary).

                2. GOST 28653-90 "Small arms. Terms and definitions"
                1 table. Item 36
                column "Term" Automatic
                column "Definition" Automatic carbine

                3. There are thousands of rifle models, hundreds of self-loading rifles, dozens of automatic rifles, and a few assault rifles (barrel length, low-pulse cartridge, automatic equipment). Therefore, everything in the world, except for civil servants of the US Army Department and you, rogues, are called the M16 assault rifle.
                1. oking
                  oking 4 July 2016 17: 30
                  -10 qualifying.
                  Quote: Operator
                  Rogul

                  As I understand it, is your wife calling you that? My condolences to you. It happens. Brace yourself.
                  Quote: Operator
                  dill fabrications

                  Aha, this is terribly catching up. We compensate for the lack of knowledge. From afar we cast a "bad shadow" on the opponent.
                  Quote: Operator
                  learn the materiel:

                  And one more "swineherd" is making friends. Which one is already today?
                  Quote: Operator
                  1. A rifle or carbine rifled small arms is called not for its intended purpose (this is a derivative business), but for its constructive (barrel length in calibers, which is primary).

                  And what are you talking about, for the rain? Those. They decided to knock down all their banners on the topic at a time. I am amazed at your horizons. And the depth of knowledge.
                  Quote: Operator
                  1 table. Item 36

                  So what? There is also paragraph 37. A submachine gun is an automatic machine, the design of which provides for firing pistol cartridges.
                  Those. a submachine gun, this is also an automatic machine.
                  Quote: Operator
                  and assault (barrel length, low-pulse cartridge, automation) units.

                  In fact, an "assault rifle" is a type of army weapon with an effective range of 300 m. It can be self-loading or automatic. And the length of the barrel, together with the automatics, does not matter here, do not invent it.
                  The smallest army weapon is carbine (carbine, but not short rifle, this is important). The senior army weapon is an army rifle. Both can be automatic or not.
                  Quote: Operator
                  Therefore, everything in the world, except for civil servants of the US Army Department and you, rogues, is called the M16 assault rifle.

                  Everything in the world, these are your friend-super-experts of small arms without special education? Nothing, it happens.
                  Weapons must be watched by their performance characteristics, and not by the cartridge used. Although, in countries where good weapons have never been made, it is better for a cartridge. TTX is terrible.
                  And about "roguly" talk with your wife. She taught you badly.
                  1. Operator
                    Operator 4 July 2016 20: 11
                    +4
                    Well, with GOST you expectedly got into a puddle (at the entrance to your farm).

                    I won't argue about your rural terminology "not an M16 assault rifle" anymore - since you and Petro and Ivanko insist on this, then God is with you!

                    At your request, I am ready to replace the word "rogulya" in surzhik with the equivalent in Russian - "redneck" laughing
                    1. oking
                      oking 4 July 2016 20: 37
                      -4
                      Quote: Operator
                      Well, with GOST you expectedly got into a puddle (at the entrance to your farm).

                      Yes? But I didn’t notice.
                      Quote: Operator
                      What about your rural terminology

                      Bah, what city ones got here. Like lice, right.
                      Quote: Operator
                      At your request, I am ready to replace the word "rogulya" in surzhik with the equivalent in Russian - "redneck"

                      I do not understand surzhik. And as for the rogue, do not dissuade me, the wife calls you that, let him call you that. So it has a reason. Moreover, in Russian.
                      1. Operator
                        Operator 4 July 2016 20: 53
                        +3
                        You’ve probably been sitting in a puddle in Lviv for so long that you are related to her laughing
                      2. oking
                        oking 4 July 2016 21: 19
                        -4
                        Quote: Operator
                        You’ve probably been sitting in a puddle in Lviv for so long,

                        Yeah. It seemed a little dill, "Lvivschina" was used.
                        You are like a child. Only so dirty, vile. Which the neighboring boys in the yard meet and escorted with kicks. And rightly so, otherwise dirty tricks cannot be knocked out of the body.
                      3. Operator
                        Operator 4 July 2016 21: 45
                        +3
                        Hillbilly, why are you hiding behind the European flags? Are you embarrassed about your zhito-blakitny?
                      4. oking
                        oking 4 July 2016 22: 09
                        -4
                        Quote: Operator
                        Woman, why hide behind European flags

                        Apparently this is a local inadequate. I’ll add it to the emergency. He tired of me.
            2. Svidetel 45
              Svidetel 45 6 July 2016 01: 21
              +3
              Which countries have never made good weapons, in Russia? And what do you mean by the definition of "good weapon", some kind of "exclusive", piece product, for post-fire in comfortable conditions, but the production of which for a mass army will not be able to pull even the economies of countries such as the United States (example with the M-14 rifle) , or that weapon that is technologically advanced, inexpensive to manufacture for arming a mass army, reliable in any conditions, has sufficient performance characteristics to solve the tasks for which it was created? Obviously, the second, and such a weapon was created and is being created in the USSR and Russia.
              1. oking
                oking 6 July 2016 15: 01
                -2
                Quote: Svidetel 45
                And what do you mean by the definition of "good weapon"

                A good army small arms is a weapon that fully meets the requirements for weapons of each specific category. There are not so many of them for army small arms. Also, soldiers and officers must be equipped with the right weapons, and not with what they can or want to do. But this is from another opera.
                Quote: Svidetel 45
                but the production of which for the mass army will not be pulled even by the economy

                Do you recall a series of Soviet rearmament? As a weapon on a cartridge of 7,62x54 mm, it was replaced by a weapon on a cartridge of 7,62x39 mm, and then on a cartridge of 5,45x39 mm. This was yes, this was a rearmament, this was money in the trash. Large-scale and global. Maybe in the USSR they didn’t steal money, but sometimes they squandered it enchantingly.
                Quote: Svidetel 45
                like the USA (example with an M-14 rifle)

                M-14 is very shrewdly shoots a standard cartridge. Therefore, it is impossible to compare Soviet weapons weapons on a cartridge of 7,62x39 mm with M-14. When ever, and the M-14 may still come in handy.
                Quote: Svidetel 45
                which is technologically advanced, inexpensive to manufacture for arming a mass army, reliable in any conditions, has sufficient performance characteristics to solve the problems for which it was created?

                This is all secondary. And the primary correspondence of the weapon to its purpose. Soviet weapons did not meet this MAIN demand. Therefore, it did not have SUFFICIENT performance characteristics for solving the tasks facing the military. And therefore, to solve these problems with such inferior weapons during the database, additional casualties were required.
                This is what arming an army with defective weapons actually means.
                1. oking
                  oking 6 July 2016 15: 01
                  -1
                  Quote: Svidetel 45
                  and such weapons were and are being created in the USSR and Russia.

                  As for the USSR, you are wrong. The greatest achievement of the USSR in the field of small arms was the AK-74. Which is not an army, but an assault (one step lower than an army) rifle. Moreover, due to the apparent failure of the design, an automatic assault rifle of medium scab. But the army needs an army automatic rifle. Nothing has been heard about its creation. But much is heard about how they try to turn an unimportant automatic assault rifle into a good one. And this is alarming, perhaps they are not capable of more.
                  As for the retired AK-47, this weapon is a very rare concept. Due to the unsuccessful design of the mechanism, the AK-74 simply could not balance, and therefore weakened completely, turning it from an army automatic rifle into an assault rifle. And not very good. Those. in that case it happened. But the AK-47 did so on purpose and purposefully. Since conceptually it was not a rifle, but an advanced submachine gun (in the German version it was MP-43 / StG-44). And the Germans did not plan to arm them with the entire Wehrmacht, but only with the combat personnel armed with the MP-40 (I recall that at first this new weapon was called MP-43).
                  What was done. They made a weapon capable of confidently using automatic fire to hit the enemy at a distance of 100 m (MP-40 was less effective beyond 60 m). In this case, when determining the distance, we proceeded from the indicators of accuracy of shooting, this was what was put at the forefront. And at the same time, the cartridge power and barrel length were adjusted so as to ensure SMG level fire density (80-100 rounds per minute). Those. standard fire density of submachine guns.
                  But due to the fact that the cartridge was much more powerful than the pistol one, a pre-calculated bonus came out, the ability of such a "machine gun" to effectively hit targets with single fire beyond 100 m. This weapon did not reach the standard of an army rifle, 400 m, it was limited to 300 m. T .e. the norm for assault rifles. At the same time, it should be noted that a very good weapon of the SFW category (selective-fire weapon) turned out. Because Usually weapons of this category in terms of the density of automatic fire of the SMG level do not do, they are limited to the AR level.
                  I willingly believe that such a weapon would be very useful for solving some special tasks by special forces. And I even willingly believe that the German concept of re-equipping them with part of the soldiers was not bad. But for the mass armament of the army, as it was in the USSR, it is not suitable at all. Because, I repeat for the tenth time, the army needs an army mass rather than an assault rifle.
                  By the 70s, this was also understood in the USSR, so they asked for a weapon on a cartridge of 7,62x39 mm with the help of a kick. But he failed to make a full replacement. Of course, an automatic assault rifle (AK-74) is noticeably better than a self-loading assault rifle with the ability to conduct automatic fire (AK-47). But the army needs an army automatic rifle. Which is not yet.
                2. Svidetel 45
                  Svidetel 45 8 July 2016 13: 55
                  +3
                  You are not answering the essence of the problem, for example, when I mentioned the M-14 rifle, which in certain conditions is more effective than the AK, I meant the economic aspect, and not the performance characteristics, as they say, one about Ivan, and the other about Bolvan, probably not hear your interlocutor, the main thing is to object and deny. And then, "... M-14 will still come in handy," and what, will we write off the AK as flintlocks, will not be useful anywhere and nowhere? Soviet weapons just to the greatest extent in terms of the TOTAL of all their qualities - performance characteristics, manufacturability, reliability met all the requirements for arming a mass army, like not one other in other countries.
                3. oking
                  oking 8 July 2016 15: 20
                  0
                  Quote: Svidetel 45
                  You are not responding essentially

                  Essentially.
                  Quote: Svidetel 45
                  I, for example, referring to the M-14 rifle, which under certain conditions is more effective than the AK, had in mind the economic aspect,

                  And who told you that the M14 is less technological and more expensive than the AK-47?
                  Quote: Svidetel 45
                  but what, AK already write off as flintlock guns, nowhere and not useful?

                  Apparently my passage about cartridges for them passed you. Sorry.
                  Quote: Svidetel 45
                  Soviet weaponry is precisely the one with the highest TOTALITY in all of its qualities - performance characteristics, manufacturability, and reliability that meets all the requirements for arming a mass army like no other in other countries.

                  "Do not read the Bolshevik newspapers before breakfast. And if there are no others, then do not read any at all."
                  Soviet small arms, these are typical products of a third world country. Of course, even comparing them with the products of developed countries is stupid. This is how to compare Moskvich with Mercedes and find a lot of advantages in the first. Although the ride and people will carry both. But if Moskvich is densely spread with propaganda, then there are still zombies who will find a lot of advantages in it. Moreover, this concerns not only small arms. Legendary cannon tanks from the same story.
  10. Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 4 July 2016 17: 20
    +6
    Quote: booki
    But in fact, the MP40 sights were marked at 200 m. And this is very suspicious.

    The sights of the Mosin rifle were marked, EMNIP, up to 2 kilometers. And this is very suspicious. smile
    1. oking
      oking 4 July 2016 17: 33
      -6
      Quote: Alexey RA
      The sights of the Mosin rifle were marked, EMNIP, up to 2 kilometers. And this is very suspicious.

      This is not suspicious, this is stupid. Because the eye does not allow to aim further than 400 m on an open sight.
      But 200 m, this is not stupid at all. Although, I repeat this for the 101st time, the normal distance for firing from PP is a distance of 100 m.
      1. Cat
        Cat 4 July 2016 20: 07
        +7
        The Mosin rifle got its sight by inheritance from the Tsar of the Peas and was intended for a full-fledged version about 130 cm long. Moreover, the rifles were fired with an attached bayonet that balanced the weapon! From the full-fledged version, it was supposed to shoot at the columns of enemy soldiers and not single targets.
        1. oking
          oking 4 July 2016 20: 40
          -7
          Quote: Kotischa
          From a full-fledged version, it was supposed to shoot at the columns of enemy soldiers and not single targets.

          But this does not cancel the insanity of its markup.
        2. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 4 July 2016 20: 54
          +6
          And you offer your markup, comrade o big. I wonder if you know. Don’t worry, I see you, even though you have dug up your list urgently.
  11. murriou
    murriou 26 September 2016 15: 35
    +1
    in fact, the MP40 sights were marked at 200 m.

    Excellent "proof", just in your spirit. And the Mauser S-96 pistol had sight markings up to a kilometer. lol
    At the same time, just in this pistol was used a cartridge for gophers, if you believe your other similar "proof" laughing

    And also, I saw a man who put a speedometer with a marking up to 200 km / h on a tarateka, which only accelerated on holidays above 60: it will accelerate as well as a holiday. Perhaps this was you? repeat
  • gross kaput
    gross kaput 4 July 2016 15: 34
    +1
    Quote: Operator
    The slop MP-40 submachine gun used by the Wehrmacht and your UPA had an aiming range of only 50 meters, which was determined by the braking initial velocity of the 9-mm bullet in 380 m / s.

    Oh how! and why stupid chances pitched a constant rear sight at 100 meters and a hinged at 200? Shaving the walls making it probably also didn’t know about it, or did their 9X19 magically fly normally for 200 yards? And in general it’s not clear why we now rivet software like Vityazey or PP 2000 under this cartridge that works only up to fifty dollars?
    In general, you are worth each other laughing
    1. Operator
      Operator 4 July 2016 17: 18
      +1
      You are not from Dill, by chance, you will - only there they can seriously compare a 9-mm police weapon with a subsonic bullet speed (MR-40, PP-19-01 "Vityaz", PP-2000 with a subsonic bullet speed) with 7,62, 41-mm army weapons with supersonic bullet velocity (PPSh-43, PPS-47, AK-74, AK-XNUMX).
      1. oking
        oking 4 July 2016 17: 39
        -7
        Quote: Operator
        You are not from Dill, by chance

        Never heard of such a place? Do you live there? Like any sandpiper decided to praise their "swamp"?
        Quote: Operator
        only there they can seriously compare the 9-mm police weapon with the subsonic speed of the bullet (MP-40,

        Quote: Operator
        with a 7,62 mm army weapon with supersonic bullet speed (PPSh-41, PPS-43, AK-47, AK-74).

        Enchanting. Brilliantly. It turns out the German MP40 is a police weapon.
        But suffocations like PPSh and PPS, it turns out to be an army weapon.
        No, this Operator will drive anyone crazy with his pearls.
        This is what the expression "no ear, no snout" really means.
      2. gross kaput
        gross kaput 4 July 2016 19: 13
        +3
        Yes, damn it is still worse than I thought - the speed of sound at sea level is 331 m / s, the initial speed of MP40 is 380 m / s
        Quote: Operator
        7,62 mm army weapon with supersonic bullet speed (PPSh-41, PPS-43, AK-47, AK-74

        Masterpiece, to divide weapons into "army" - "police" at the line of speed of sound - this is five standing ovation laughing
        Now, with regards to shooting at 200 meters, for PPSh and MP 40 this is the maximum effective range, fortunately our ancestors understood this better than you, therefore, we replaced the sector sight with PPSH with a simpler and most importantly reflecting the real effective range of the cross over for two distances of 100 and 200. The TT bullet fired from the PPSh has a flatter trajectory than from 9X19 from MP 40, but the gap is not very large for 200, and the cardinal decrease for 9X19 will be 0,8m for 7,62 0,6m, speed at 9m / s at 250m / s the energy of both is quite enough to defeat the enemy. Those. both will allow you to shoot at a growth target, both will no longer guarantee hit in the chest target in case of a range error, and both at a distance of more than 7,62 meters will have absolutely unsatisfactory accuracy even though the bullets in both will be slaughter up to 300-200 meters. In general, learn materiel laughing
        1. Operator
          Operator 4 July 2016 19: 54
          +4
          Thank you, I understand - you will be with oking from the same farm bully
          Especially for rural:
          - the kinetic energy of a bullet is directly proportional to the square of the speed, therefore 500 m / s 7,62х25 is more effective than 380 m / s 9х19 not 1,3, but 1,73 times;
          - the initial supersonic speed of the 9-mm bullet decreases to the subsonic 330 m / s just at the turn of 50 meters (effective firing range from MP-40), where the 7,62-mm bullet has a speed of 450 m / s, the energy gap increases up to two times ;
          - at a distance of 200 meters, the 9-mm bullet has a ridiculous speed of the order of 200 m / s compared to the 330 m / s 7,62-mm bullet, the energy gap increases up to 2,5 times.

          There can be no talk of any stopping, and even more so punching effect of an 9 mm bullet at a distance of more than 50 meters (and hand grenades are much more effective weapons up to 40 meters). Therefore, the fate of the 9-mm submachine guns is only police operations against criminals and terrorists who are not equipped with body armor. The use of the police MP-40 in the Wehrmacht until the end of the 1944 year was from stupidity, and from that period until the end of the war - from the limited production capabilities for the production of army weapons under an intermediate cartridge.

          Either the case of the Red Army, which since 1941 of the year has been equipped with army submachine guns under the high-pulse pistol cartridge 7,62x25 mm. Moreover, in comparison with the expensive, difficult to manufacture and having a small effective firing range MP-40, the Soviet PPSh-41 and PPS-43 were real engineering masterpieces.
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 4 July 2016 20: 06
            +4
            Quote: Operator
            Thank you, I understand - you will be with oking from the same farm

            Well, you bent ... Gross put in one clip with this ... how is it ... a roll of wallpaper? overbock? He probably sowed his list, forgot to put me in an emergency. laughing
            1. Operator
              Operator 4 July 2016 20: 24
              0
              Sorry, gross kaput (2) is everything.
          2. oking
            oking 4 July 2016 20: 33
            -5
            Quote: Operator
            kinetic energy of a bullet is directly proportional to the square of speed, therefore 500 m / s 7,62x25 is more effective than 380 m / s 9x19 not by 1,3, but by 1,73 times;

            Brad bastard number of times. Particularly touching is the passage "500 m / s is more effective than 380 m / s". Moreover, for some reason this insanity is squared. Continue on, I'm having fun with you.
            Quote: Operator
            the initial supersonic speed of a 9-mm bullet decreases to subsonic 330 m / s just at the turn of 50 meters (effective firing range from the MP-40), where a 7,62-mm bullet has a speed of 450 m / s, the energy gap increases to two time;

            Even I did not expect such enchanting ravings of the number two mare. It turns out that supersonic is very important. I wonder why they might write further.
            Quote: Operator
            at a distance of 200 meters, a 9 mm bullet has a ridiculous speed of about 200 m / s compared to 330 m / s with a 7,62 mm bullet, the energy gap increases up to 2,5 times.

            And, of course, insanity number 3. Moreover, somehow the energy is measured only by speed. It seems that the weight of the bullet here is generally not at work.
            In fact, wise guy, the speed of the MP-40 bullet at a range of 200 m is approximately 270 m / s. And the energy of the bullet is 293 J. The same for the PPSh pool is about 295 m / s and 241 J. Everything, it’s time to finish the bullshit ravings. Nifiga you do not know, so at least keep quiet with a smart look.
            Quote: Operator
            There can be no talk of any stopping, and even more so punching effect of a 9 mm bullet at a distance of more than 50 meters

            how are you feeling No, I seriously fear for your well-being.
            Quote: Operator
            Therefore, the destiny of 9-mm submachine guns is only police operations against criminals and terrorists who are not equipped with body armor.

            Uncle, MP-40 and a distance of 60 m "knocks" a person to death with one bullet in the ass. What kind of police weapon?
            Quote: Operator
            The use of the police MP-40 in the Wehrmacht until the end of 1944 was from stupidity,

            Tryndets. Everyone around is meager, and the Operator is smart. It will be necessary to remember.
            Quote: Operator
            under a high-pulse pistol cartridge 7,62x25 mm.

            Yeah, this squalor, it turns out, was a "high-impulse cartridge". Enchanting, as always.
            Quote: Operator
            Soviet PPSh-41 and PPS-43 were real engineering masterpieces

            Uncle, the USSR before 2 MV was a poor and poorly educated country, in which even the barrel of a gun could not be counted. A striking example of Soviet anti-aircraft guns, 76 and 85-mm, which the Germans refined in their 88 caliber. They had a "margin of safety" there. And also the Soviet 76-mm F-22 cannon, from which the Germans removed energy 40% more than in the USSR. What masterpieces could be in this semi-literate collective farm? Enough already soviet fairy tales.
            And here's another. Nowhere in the world was there an army weapon on such a cartridge. They did not take him into the army. And this is not from "stupidity", as you deign to say. And just because of the presence of intelligence and professionalism. Which was not in the dense Stalinist USSR.
            1. Operator
              Operator 4 July 2016 21: 34
              +3
              Ukrop redneck, at the beginning of WWII Germany was able to give birth with an effort only T-IV with a cigarette butt instead of a cannon, which ran like hares from the T-34 and KV-1. The 152-mm howitzer-gun ML-20 from the beginning to the end of the war was an unattainable model for the German industry. Perkalium La-7 in their performance characteristics exceeded the all-metal Fokkers and Messers (this had to be done especially on the part of the German aircraft industry). Throughout the war, the Germans were unable to create a single infantry machine gun with gas-operated automatics and an optimal rate of fire. Police officer MP-40 is a disgrace to the Wehrmacht. All "Tigers" and "Royal Tigers" were driven behind Mozhay by Soviet Su-100 and ISU-152.

              But you, the foremost representative of the Ukrop countryside, are prettier in your parallel reality, in which Germany extends from the Atlantic to the Urals, and Russia is turned into a small Tartaria.

              In the real world, the "dense", "beggar" and "underdeveloped" USSR in WWII pulverized the last German Reich in history, separating from it the very core (East Prussia) and Silesia. The remaining stub is now called the Federal Republic of Germany, its dimensions practically coincide with France, Spain and Poland, i.e. it is a stateless country in terms of its mobilization and military potential with a ban on the possession of nuclear weapons. The natural aging of the population of Germany by the end of the 21st century will finally put it on a par with other European countries.

              And in order not to get up twice after WWII, the USSR turned the British Empire ("over which the sun never sets") into a cardboard fool - an analogue of the FRG, but with nuclear weapons (which, however, is under the jurisdiction of the US patron).

              It is useful to recall the fate of the Japanese Empire as a result of WWII, whose territory shrank to the size of the Japanese islands (just like the Federal Republic of Germany), and its influence - to the cries of "Save us Americans from the evil Russia and China."

              Russia after the WWII became the owner of the world's largest military potential, capable of destroying any potential enemy / opponents.

              And so yes - we are "dense", "poor" and "underdeveloped" am

              PS I cannot deny myself the pleasure of reminding you how I dunked you headlong into your own head with the T-34/57 and the "masterpiece of the German genius" VK 3002 / DM. So sit in the same position and tweet to your health.
              1. oking
                oking 4 July 2016 22: 05
                -5
                Quote: Operator
                Dill countryman,

                Usually all signatures are put at the end. And you are right at the beginning. Original.
                Quote: Operator
                at the beginning of WWII, Germany was able to spawn with a strain only T-IV with a cigarette butt instead of a gun

                In fact, KwK36 was armed with a cartridge with a cumulative projectile. Therefore, they had no particular problems banging the T-34.
                Quote: Operator
                who ran like hares from T-34 and KV-1

                And then. And so, bunnies, bunnies and ran to Moscow and the Volga. I did not understand why, but you enlightened me, he T-34 and KV fled.
                Quote: Operator
                The ML-152 20-mm howitzer-gun from the beginning to the end of the war was an unattainable model for German industry.

                Yes? And what a genius such product? What is his genius?
                Quote: Operator
                The perkalievy La-7 in their LTH exceeded the all-metal Fokkers and Messers

                Oh, exceeded. And then the Messers caught up with them, and again exceeded.
                Losses compare, felt boots.
                Quote: Operator
                Throughout the war, the Germans were unable to create a single infantry machine gun with gas automatic control and an optimal rate of fire.

                They were quite happy with their MG. Although, the German level of weapons was also weak. Germany was preparing for war for only 6 years.
                Quote: Operator
                MP-40 policeman is a shame Wehrmacht

                Are you stuck? Call the MP-40 a policeman. Then PPSh should be called school. Nevertheless, it was noticeably inferior to the MP-40.
                Quote: Operator
                All "Tigers" and "Royal Tigers" were driven behind Mozhay by Soviet Su-100 and ISU-152.

                I want to inform you that the ISU-152 were artillery propelled guns. And the anti-tank struggle was not part of their task. And the SU-100 in 1944. Only 500 pieces were produced. In addition, you somehow forget the Panthers.
                Quote: Operator
                But you, the foremost representative of the Ukrop countryside, are prettier in your parallel reality, in which Germany extends from the Atlantic to the Urals, and Russia is turned into a small Tartaria.

                You don’t throw your secret dreams on me. And do not translate the arrows.
                Quote: Operator
                In the real world, the "dense", "beggar" and "underdeveloped" USSR in WWII

                You need to study history and understand which segments consisted of 2 MB for the USSR. You have this very badly.
                1. oking
                  oking 4 July 2016 22: 07
                  -3
                  Quote: Operator
                  The USSR, following WWII, turned the British Empire

                  I am directly struck by these great and terrible USSR. Where was he like that, why don't I know anything about him?
                  And what, having erased everyone into powder and turned everyone into cardboard duril, did the USSR take a dominant position in the world? Not at all. So maybe this your USSR was somehow called differently? Maybe you confused the name?
                  Quote: Operator
                  Russia after the WWII became the owner of the world's largest military potential, capable of destroying any potential adversary / opponents (which, however, include only NATO countries).

                  Kid. In the USSR, at the end, everyone was rowing into the army. And 17 year olds. And limited to fit. From the WWII USSR came out a complete ruin. What is not surprising at this level of loss.
                  Quote: Operator
                  I cannot deny myself the pleasure of recalling how I dunked you headlong into your own head with the T-34/57 and the "masterpiece of the German genius" VK 3002 / DM.

                  Actually, everything was exactly the opposite. The boy posted a funny picture that I made fun of. But juggling is your everything. Distort further, I do not mind.
          3. The comment was deleted.
          4. gross kaput
            gross kaput 4 July 2016 21: 04
            +1
            Quote: Operator
            kinetic energy of a bullet is directly proportional to the square of speed, therefore 500 m / s 7,62x25 is more effective than 380 m / s 9x19 not by 1,3, but by 1,73 times;

            We open the physics textbook for grade 6 and find the mechanics section - it’s usually there under the number un smile after which we learn what the kinetic energy of a moving body is equal to? The kinetic energy of a bullet - E (J) is determined by its flight speed - V (m / s) and mass - m (kg) and is calculated by the formula: E = mv2 (squared): 2
            Therefore, the dear young man does not need to skip classes at school so that later it would not be excruciatingly embarrassing laughing As for the energy of the bullets, then for the bullet of the TT cartridge fired from the PPSh the energy will be 680 J and for the 9X19 from the MP 40 600 J is not it "gigantic" superiority? laughing
            Quote: Operator
            at a distance of 200 meters, a 9 mm bullet has a ridiculous speed of about 200 m / s

            Miracle of times he is not able to count, then open any ball. calculator and with surprise find out what speeds will be at 200 meters.
            In general, another dropout picked up on tops on the Internet. laughing You're not the first one in VO and not the last one so don't be upset.
            1. Operator
              Operator 4 July 2016 21: 50
              0
              40600 J for 9x19 on a ballistic calculator - it's just a masterpiece on your part, old man bully

              You can poke your colleague oking'y.

              The phrase "proportional to the square of the speed" is clearly beyond your understanding. And yes, I am amazed at your secret knowledge of the school formula for kinetic energy.
              1. oking
                oking 4 July 2016 22: 13
                -2
                Quote: Operator
                40600 J for 9x19 on a ballistic calculator - it's just a masterpiece on your part, old man

                I said inadequate. They do not understand the energy of a bullet. There he, DE MP-40, more than the CPV. Giant.
                Quote: Operator
                The phrase "proportional to the square of the speed" is clearly beyond your understanding. And yes, I am amazed at your secret knowledge of the school formula for kinetic energy.

                This is such a disguise phrase. So that no one would guess that he is not able to calculate DE.
                Oh, whom only in RuNet you will not meet.
              2. gross kaput
                gross kaput 4 July 2016 22: 49
                +2
                Quote: Operator
                40600 J for 9x19 on a ballistic calculator

                also with vision problems? or with the perception of the text? Well, if you put on glasses, you can see that there is a gap between the "MP 40" and the number "600" laughing On the topic, that is, what can I say, have all ideologically correct cliches ended?
                PS By the way, realizing that a character who believes that energy depends only on speed is unlikely to be able to count something, even on a calculator, he counted ballistics for a domestic 7,62 mm pistol cartridge with a P bullet from PPSh and the German Pist. patr. 08 data through fraction first digit our cartridge second German
                ball. coefficient 0,108 / 0,129
                speed at 200 meters 283/270,
                energy at 200 meters 220/290,
                lowering the trajectory 75/97,
                flight time 0,57 / 0,65,
                as already mentioned, both are approximately 200 meters equivalent and for both this is already the limit of efficiency.

                And if you are a lover, I would strongly advise you to study the subject not by popular TV programs and articles like "weapon of victory", but by normal books and in real hardware.
                1. Operator
                  Operator 5 July 2016 00: 10
                  +2
                  It's time to start distinguishing "directly proportional" from "only from speed".

                  Kinetic, it’s muzzle energy:
                  MP-40, 9x19 mm ~ 0,008x380x380 / 2 = 578 J
                  PPSh-41, 7,62x25 mm ~ 0,0055x500x500 / 2 = 687 J
                  difference by xnumx percent

                  Midsection area:
                  9 mm caliber bullet - 63,6 mm2
                  7,62 mm caliber bullet - 45,6 mm2
                  difference by xnumx percent

                  Elongation:
                  bullet cartridge 9x19 mm - 2,3 times
                  bullet cartridge 7,62x25 mm - 4,1 times
                  difference by xnumx percent

                  Oh, something correlates with a ballistic calculator - can something be changed in the calculator?
                2. gross kaput
                  gross kaput 5 July 2016 13: 35
                  -1
                  Quote: Operator
                  Oh, something correlates with a ballistic calculator - can something be changed in the calculator?

                  You did calculate the energy and speed for 200 meters, but all that was enough for you was to rewrite the tabular data of the cartridges?
                  Quote: Operator
                  Midsection area:
                  9 mm caliber bullet - 63,6 mm2
                  7,62 mm caliber bullet - 45,6 mm2
                  difference by xnumx percent

                  Elongation:
                  bullet cartridge 9x19 mm - 2,3 times
                  bullet cartridge 7,62x25 mm - 4,1 times
                  difference by xnumx percent

                  Young man did not hear about the transverse load? But about the ballistic coefficient? no? I’ll tell you a terrible secret that the numbers you brought are usually used to calculate the lateral load and are recorded with one digit, and taking into account the shape of the bullet and the lateral load, they consider the coefficient, which is used to calculate the characteristics of the bullet at a given range.
                  I will no longer go into such a jungle as, for example, the fact that, according to the results of field measurements of captured weapons and cartridges at IISPVO, the average n / s of cartridge 08 with a lead core from MP 40 was determined as 390 m / s or that the characteristics of cartridges with surrogate bullets were somewhat different from the usual ones, that the TT cartridge, even in peacetime, had very large tolerances for the mass of the bullet and the weight of gunpowder, and in wartime they seemed to "improved" even more and the control post-war measurements showed the spread in the mass of the bullet for the cartridge with the PS 5,45 bullet, 5,65-490 g n / s from PPSh from 540 to 20 m / s. And if you go even further, for example, the story with the tests of the "armor protection" PZ-ZIF-75 somehow so unexpectedly it turned out that this cuirass holds the bullet "P" from the PPD from 115 meters and the German surrogate only from XNUMX. Only unfortunately you are you don’t know and don’t want to know, the minimum of TV shows is enough for you laughing
                  And yet, the topic was about the effective range in energy already said - both cartridges are already at the lower limit - in terms of accuracy, too, everything is not very joyfully lying down from 100 meters PPP in short bursts gives R 100 84 cm and R50 34 cm MP 40 72 and 26 cm you can estimate the dispersion at 200 meters you can laughing Once again, for those who repeat in an armored train, both samples have an effective range of up to 200 meters, each has its pros and cons, and most importantly, the cartridges are not divided into army / police at the speed of sound laughing
                  Engage in self-education and you will be happy.
              3. egeny patykov
                egeny patykov 22 February 2018 15: 13
                0
                interesting . then the sonic speed of the PCA drops rapidly and does not give advantages.
        2. Svidetel 45
          Svidetel 45 6 July 2016 01: 49
          +1
          Well, here you are mistaken, arguing that at a distance of 200 meters the energy of a 9 mm bullet is 2,5 times less than the energy of a bullet of 7,62 mm, since the mass of a 9 mm bullet of a standard cartridge is 8 grams, and the mass of the bullet? .62 mm - 5,5 grams. An elementary calculation according to the well-known formula shows that the energy of the first will be 16 kgf / m, which is 1.9 times less than the energy of the second bullet at the mentioned distance. This energy is quite enough to cause a mortal wound, another thing, with such a drop in speed, the trajectory became less stable, it was necessary to make the aiming point at a distance of 200 meters above the CT, which is extremely inconvenient.
  • murriou
    murriou 26 September 2016 15: 25
    0
    Many thanks to Mr. (decode as you like) booki for the unexpected fun !!! laughing lol good .

    1. The standard range for the battle of submachine guns is and was a distance of the order of 100 m.

    The fact that there have been and are DIFFERENT PPs is unknown to this Mr. laughing

    Thompson’s SMG is called SMG, not MP

    Another discovery of the century! And I, naive, thought - this is because SubMashineGun is in English, and MashinenPistol is in German laughing

    And SMG is translated, not as a submachine gun, as it is customary to "translate" in Runet.

    Yes! Uniqueslike mr booki translate SubMashineGun as "machine gun" lol
    And any sane reference book on military terminology and abbreviations, having forgotten to ask for advice from every Mr., translates this into Russian just like a submachine gun.

    "Submachine guns" on a cartridge of 7,62x39 mm are actually not an automatic weapon, but a self-loading weapon with the ability to conduct automatic fire at close (submachine gun, ie about 100 m) distances.

    And the men didn’t know ...
    No comments! Applause! Pour in granite and hang on the wall. laughing
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 4 July 2016 11: 34
    +4
    The commission members concluded that the new Shpagin PPSh-2 submachine gun in terms of the number of delays when firing in conditions of severe pollution did not pass the competitive tests. At the same time, the competition between the two designers, which had begun at the training ground, was transferred to the bureaucratic / paper plane, where not only the results obtained were important, but also the positions of supporters of a particular submachine gun model. In this regard, PPSh-2 was quite good, since Ustinov personally played the role of his defender.

    Heh heh heh ... not so simple. For example, Comrade Shpagin believed that bureaucratic competitions began at the test stage:
    The testing commission was composed of GAU KA employees without a representative from the NKV USSR and, therefore, it was no coincidence that during the work there was a unilateral decision and more attention was paid to the PPP model.

    Moreover, when the head of the 10th department of the Art Committee of the GAU KA, engineer-major Burdenkov arrived at the training ground to verify Shpagin’s statement, it suddenly turned out that:
    There were no documented initial data in the form of a working journal on recording test results, shooting cards, and other documents at the NIPSVO KA, as a result of which I was forced to confine myself to interrogating the NIPSVO full-time employees who directly conducted the tests.

    By the way, Sudaev also had a high defender - the head of the GAU, comrade Yakovlev.
    As the uv. Ulanov:
    ... in May [1943] the leadership of the GAU KA sent first a recommendation to L.P. Beria, and then to I.V. Stalin himself, to adopt the Sudaev submachine gun. This was done even before the reports from most of the parts that tested were received.
    "In the process of testing in four armies of the Leningrad Front and in the rear units of the Moscow Military District, the expediency of adopting a Sudaev submachine gun was sufficiently fully revealed."
    .
    As a result, it turned out that the decision on the adoption of a new submachine gun was made on the basis of reviews from the Lenfront, where only the faculty members got, as well as the impressions of the two NKVD divisions. However, far from everywhere, the teaching staff turned out to be such a clear leader - on the Far Eastern front, six out of ten units spoke out for his rival. The PPSh-2 was also liked more by the shooters from the airborne school, although it would seem that here was someone who would have liked the lighter and more compact PPS.

    Following the report on the table to Stalin, the draft resolution of the decision of the State Defense Committee on the release of Sudayev's submachine gun also went down. It was signed by the head of the GAU KA Colonel-General Yakovlev ... and People's Commissar of the USSR mortar weapons Parshin. In all likelihood, the GAU leadership preferred not to intersect once again with the People’s Commissariat of Armaments and personally Ustinov. It is characteristic that in the future the plants of the NKSS (People’s Commissariat of Machine Tool Building), the NKSP (People’s Commissariat of the Shipbuilding Industry), and even the NKPS (People’s Commissariat of Railways) —but not the People’s Commissariat of Armaments — were involved in the production of PPS.
    1. Operator
      Operator 4 July 2016 13: 10
      0
      At the cost of manufacture, reliability in operation and guaranteed two-row supply of cartridges, PPS beat PPSh repeatedly, regardless of the subjective opinions of Ustinov and Yakovlev.

      Moreover, the mass of PPS and PPSh was the same (and hence the accuracy of firing bursts), while the former had a folding butt and could be used by tankmen and paratroopers, and the latter was an 843-mm fool with a birch butt warping from moisture.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 4 July 2016 13: 49
        +1
        Quote: Operator
        At the cost of manufacture, reliability in operation and guaranteed two-row supply of cartridges, PPS beat PPSh repeatedly, regardless of the subjective opinions of Ustinov and Yakovlev.

        ... in the certificate prepared in the same GAU KA already for "internal" use, it was indicated that the total time for the production of PPS in hours is 4,23, while PPSh-2 - 3,8.

        Ulanov in LJ had quite a lot about the battle between PPS and PPSh-2.
        I was especially pleased with the list of factories that produced the "simplest" and "most technologically advanced" PPP:
        1.ZD SAM of the People's Commissariat of Mortar Armament. Kalmykova "Schetmash" (Moscow) - 1st State plant of calculating and analytical machines, manufacturer of the then "electronics".
        2. Zd them. Kulakova (Leningrad) - communication equipment (including ZAS), all sly electrics for the fleet. Before PPP, it produced PPD.
        3. Sestroretsky zd them. Voskova (Leningrad). Instrumental at the time of production, the former Sestroretsk arms factory. Before PPP, it produced PPD.
        4. Artel Primus (Leningrad) - in 44, by the way, it was "renamed" into a factory.
        5. Tbilisi Steam Train Car Repair Plant (Tbilisi_
        6. Tbilisi Tool Plant (Tbilisi). Like points 1 and 5, it produced not only PPS, but also PPSh.

        Artel "Primus", by the way, despite its name, was also engaged in high-tech - all sorts of hydraulic components.
        Quote: Operator
        Moreover, the mass of PPS and PPSh was the same (and hence the accuracy of firing bursts), while the former had a folding butt and could be used by tankmen and paratroopers, and the latter was an 843-mm fool with a birch butt warping from moisture.

        PPSh-2 was also with a metal butt.
        1. Operator
          Operator 4 July 2016 14: 21
          +3
          Judging by the form, quantity, method of manufacturing and fixing parts, the excess of the complexity of manufacturing PPP over PPSh could only be at the stage of pilot production of the first and serial production of parts of the second.

          After the deployment of serial production of PPP, the complexity of its production decreased to 2 machine hours. Moreover, the simplicity of the design made it possible to quickly deploy production at any machine-building enterprise (in contrast to the specialized weapons, which produced PPSh).

          The design of the PPSh-2 was very clumsy - an open trunk for burns (the designer tried to reduce weight to the level of competitors), a small base for holding weapons (distance between the grip of the right and left hands) and a shortened length of the sighting line (from the front to the rear).
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 4 July 2016 16: 24
            +2
            Quote: Operator
            Moreover, the simplicity of the design made it possible to quickly deploy production at any machine-building enterprise (in contrast to the specialized weapons, which produced PPSh).

            Yeah ... that's just in real life, GGCs were not manufactured "at any machine-building enterprise", but at high-tech factories such as Sestroretsky, them. Kulakov, Tbilisi instrumental or "Schetmash". Leningrad factories, for example, before the production of PPS, made rather complex PPDs. And Schetmash and Tbilisi factories - PPSh.

            Oh yes, there was also the Primus artel. Which established production at two other Leningrad plants in terms of stamping and welding. Such a sickly artel, but - establishing production at factories like the Sestroretsk instrumental. Moreover, welding and stamping in weapons production were the "last word in technology" - they were introduced only at the very end of the 30s (it was this technical revolution that finally allowed to dramatically reduce the cost of PP - see Bolotin's book).
            1. Operator
              Operator 4 July 2016 16: 41
              +1
              Well, it’s good that they were able to launch the production of a single model of a submachine gun at diversified enterprises.

              As I understand it, the initial manufacturability of the design of the teaching staff only contributed to this.
      2. Alf
        Alf 4 July 2016 17: 25
        +2
        Quote: Operator
        Moreover, the mass of PPS and PPSh was the same

        The weight of the teaching staff with the curb shop is 3,67 kg.
        The weight of PPSh with the equipped disk magazine is 5,3 kg.
        PPSh with a horn-4,15 kg.
        Quite the same.
        1. Operator
          Operator 4 July 2016 20: 20
          0
          You are right - 3,67 kg PPP and 4,15 kg PPP.
  • Leeder
    Leeder 4 July 2016 12: 25
    0
    Honestly, shocked by the meticulousness of the GAU tests.
    There is nothing to add, the tests are really close to combat.
    Hats off to such a commission! hi
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR 4 July 2016 14: 10
    +4
    Quote: booki
    I would change God's gift with fried eggs.
    In addition, the M-16, this is not an assault, but an army automatic rifle.

    ... and that is why this miracle rifle is being replaced at an accelerated pace with a carbine in the army? Moreover, in such US troops as the special operations forces and the ILC. But what about the fact that the barrel length of the M4 carbine is less than that of the "defective" AK-74M. You, as always, do not want to compare ... I am still waiting for your competent comparison of the Soviet "sludge" AK-74 of the 70s with the American "wunderwolf" M-4 of the 90s.
    Quote: booki
    Sighting range, this is one of many, and completely insignificant indicators for army weapons.

    HOW ABOUT 400m ??? It’s 400m and not an inch less ?!
    Quote: booki
    In addition, the PPSh bullet had a tendency to penetrate right through, and this is already a marriage in the "work" of army weapons.

    Well, what about the "wound ballistics? To fly through - it means he will die faster from loss of blood?"
    Quote: booki
    In addition, I want to remind you that all weapons on the "brilliant cartridge 7,62x39 mm" in the 70s were expelled from the army with a kick. Why do you think?

    For the same reason as with the latest post-war 7,62x51 NATO cartridge. Or have you "forgotten" about such "wonderful" models of small arms as M-14, G-3, FN FAL? Where are all these samples now? On the guard of honor, but in the hands of the next black independence fighters
    1. oking
      oking 4 July 2016 15: 51
      -5
      Quote: DesToeR
      ... and why is this miracle a rifle replaced at an accelerated pace with a carbine in the troops?

      Nobody even thinks of removing her in the army. Delete it only in your imagination.
      Quote: DesToeR
      Moreover, in such US troops as special operations forces and the ILC.

      You are able to understand the difference between the army and special forces? For some reason I think not.
      Quote: DesToeR
      But what about the fact that the barrel length of the M4 carbine is less than that of the "defective" AK-74M.

      This is a terrible fact. I cry nights over it.
      Why did you write this? Do you demonstrate erudition? Where did it come from, this trunk length?
      Quote: DesToeR
      You as always do not want to compare ...

      Why? I can easily compare. Thanks to the powerful M4 cartridge, this is still an army automatic rifle. But she has a serious jamb for the army, she is not SMG, like the M16, but AR. Those. its combat rate of fire and density of fire due to the short barrel are reduced. Cooling is fig, in other words.
      Do you understand at last? And then I explain this to you for the hundredth time of their last strength.
      Quote: DesToeR
      HOW ABOUT 400m ??? It’s 400m and not an inch less ?!

      400 m for a single fire from the army, and most often from assault weapons. This is important, therefore, it is necessary to clarify.
      Quote: DesToeR
      Well, what about the "wound ballistics? To fly through - it means he will die faster from loss of blood?"

      Learn at least basic things on this topic.
      Quote: DesToeR
      For the same reason as with the latest post-war cartridge 7,62x51 NATO.

      You do not align the penis with your finger. Those. NATO rifle cartridge 7,62x51 mm and 7,62x39 mm intermediate cartridge. An analogue of the NATO cartridge is a cartridge of 7,62x54 mm. And oa to this day in the ranks. Unlike the Soviet 7,62x39 mm.
      1. alexej123
        alexej123 13 October 2016 19: 00
        0
        M16 and its derivatives invented LO XI.
  • Engineer
    Engineer 4 July 2016 16: 46
    0
    Quote: AUL
    In all respects, the teaching staff surpassed the teaching staff - both in combat, and in technological, and in economic


    Tell this to my grandfather, an artillery reconnaissance spotter. None of them took PPS on an outing, because they were used to trusting life only with reliable weapons.
  • serge siberian
    serge siberian 4 July 2016 18: 39
    +2
    Quote: booki
    a means of hunting rabbits and small game.

    But is it nothing that a bullet from a TT pierces a person to take off? Yes, and bulletproof vests are also checked with this cartridge, after that they are assigned strength and class (and only after this test).
    1. oking
      oking 4 July 2016 19: 10
      -3
      Quote: serzh sibiryak
      But nothing that a bullet from the TT pierces a person to fly?

      This is bad. With a good bullet hit, the victim’s body should not leave. She must completely transfer her energy to him.
    2. AK64
      AK64 4 July 2016 19: 14
      -4
      But nothing that a bullet from the TT pierces a person to fly?

      A pistol is not a punch - it should not "punch", but kill. These are slightly different things.

      Here is Colt - killing: one hit generally it was enough for a person to die from shock. And it’s not very important where they got.

      Feel the difference.

      And bulletproof vests are also checked with this cartridge, after that they are assigned for strength and class (and only after this test).

      For that time, the bronik was not relevant - there weren’t any broniks.

      In general, the adoption of the cartridge 7.62x25 was either stupid or wrecking. Especially when you consider that switching to 9x25 requires only a reconfiguration of the line. (Moreover, one heating and 3 or 4 operations would be saved - compression on a bottle.)
      A 9x25 cartridge would kill a little more villains, and thereby save a few of ours. While the weapons would be essentially the same.

      The only tsimus from 7.62 - allowed the use of defective rifle barrels for PP. But this is more theoretically, since something is not heard about this use.
    3. Beefeater
      Beefeater 4 July 2016 21: 22
      0
      Quote: Serge Siberian
      Quote: booki
      a means of hunting rabbits and small game.

      But is it nothing that a bullet from a TT pierces a person to take off? Yes, and bulletproof vests are also checked with this cartridge, after that they are assigned strength and class (and only after this test).

      TT also pierced the bulletproof vest.
      In general, it was called Russian Browning. Very reminiscent of
      1. oking
        oking 4 July 2016 22: 15
        -2
        Quote: Beefeater
        TT also pierced the bulletproof vest.

        When the TT served in the Red Army, there were no bulletproof vests at all.
        1. igordok
          igordok 4 July 2016 22: 53
          +3
          Quote: oking
          When the TT served in the Red Army, there were no bulletproof vests at all.

          There were no bulletproof vests, there were CH-38 - CH-42 - steel bibs.
          And by the way, the quilted jacket you disdained could hold PP bullets at the end of 9mm, but 7,62mm with difficulty.
          1. oking
            oking 4 July 2016 23: 12
            -3
            Quote: igordok
            And by the way, the quilted jacket you disdained could hold PP bullets at the end of 9mm, but 7,62mm with difficulty.

            No one argues that the penetration of a TT bullet is higher than that of a Para bullet. But this was not the most important indicator in those days.
            "Felled" the Steam cartridge is better. Actually, that's why today basically everyone uses it.
            True, this is not the same Para cartridge that during WW2. He was poor. And the TT cartridge is completely bullshit.
  • parafoiler
    parafoiler 4 July 2016 18: 49
    +2
    Quote: Engineer
    Quote: AUL
    In all respects, the teaching staff surpassed the teaching staff - both in combat, and in technological, and in economic


    Tell this to my grandfather, an artillery reconnaissance spotter. None of them took PPS on an outing, because they were used to trusting life only with reliable weapons.


    So name this weapon! What are common phrases ?!
  • Bormanxnumx
    Bormanxnumx 4 July 2016 19: 12
    0
    Quote: booki
    Quote: Aviagr
    On the contrary: the most balanced cartridge!

    Learn the basics of wound ballistics. You need.

    Regarding the wound ballistics of the cartridge 7,62x25 and comparing it with 9x18, I recommend everyone to take a look
    http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bp001/bp01raz/02raz/bp002.htm
    1. Aviagr
      Aviagr 4 July 2016 20: 25
      0
      I will add: in my case, when equipped with an UAV machine gun, the defeat will be on top of the personnel (Hull!), Equipment (MLRS, electronic warfare, trucks with shells), similar UAVs and cruise missiles. Together with the slope of the shot, an almost flat trajectory will turn out, which will positively affect the aiming. Just to increase the power of the cartridge you need to move away from free shutter.
      But there, the subject has a clinic - he takes all for gophers - you can quickly run and whistle with a hole in the right side, but you can’t sit with a large pelvis stuck in the soft tissues .. lol
    2. oking
      oking 4 July 2016 20: 45
      0
      Quote: BORMAN82
      Regarding the wound ballistics of the cartridge 7,62x25 and comparing it with 9x18, I recommend everyone to take a look

      In fact, you will need to then look closely. Fairly rare information.
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR 4 July 2016 19: 47
    +2
    Quote: oking
    Nobody even thinks of removing her in the army. Delete it only in your imagination.

    I see that you ignored the ILC of the USA ... only unsubscribed about special forces ...
    Quote: oking
    Where did it come from, this trunk length?

    Well, I’ll wait for a comparison, you don’t need to show emotions - write in the case. On this site, I’m probably the only one who is ready to listen to you.
    Quote: oking
    Thanks to the powerful M4 cartridge, this is still an army automatic rifle.

    Weakly. Especially when you consider that 5,45x39 will not yield in power. The question is the same: why in the USA they choose M4 instead of M16 for arming ADVANCED units. There is no need to write about AR and other SMGs - this is verbiage and nothing more.
    Quote: oking
    400 m for a single fire from the army, and most often from assault weapons. This is important, therefore, it is necessary to clarify.

    So the M4 is an "assault" weapon? If so, the United States adopted the Soviet concept of individual small arms.
    Quote: oking
    You do not align the penis with your finger. Those. NATO rifle cartridge 7,62x51 mm and 7,62x39 mm intermediate cartridge

    I have the right, because BOTH of these cartridges were developed for individual soldier's AUTOMATIC weapons. And both of these cartridges for individual AUTOMATIC weapons gave way to a little impulse cartridges, as well as samples of weapons based on them. The USA with a cartridge of 7,62x51 NATO crap in Vietnam in full. Hence their 5,56x45 cartridge went. No need to dissemble, I didn’t give you machine guns as an example, but automatic rifles. And for machine guns it was not worthwhile to start up this whole epic with a new rifle cartridge - the old ones were well suited.
    1. oking
      oking 4 July 2016 21: 15
      -4
      Quote: DesToeR
      I see that you ignored the ILC of the USA ... only unsubscribed about special forces ...

      Turn off your imagination. It's time.
      Quote: DesToeR
      On this site, I’m probably the only one who is ready to listen to you.

      So I'm not writing for sofa marshals. In my opinion, it's like a black mark. I write for ordinary unregistered users. I think they also visit this site.
      I would not write. But the level of insanity of registered users sometimes kills on the spot. When the level of delirium begins to go off scale, I write. But I don’t really need listeners. Whoever needs it will understand. And whoever doesn’t understand, he needs to.
      And as for the length of the barrel, I really did not understand what kind of indicator it appeared so key for you? Negative thing, the barrel does not cool, accuracy is lost. M4 will now be extended to 409 mm. What will be called, they did not tell me. Maybe M4A2.
      Quote: DesToeR
      The question is the same: why in the USA they choose M4 instead of M16 for arming ADVANCED units.

      You have the wrong information. There are no such trends in the US Army.
      Quote: DesToeR
      Weakly. Especially when you consider that 5,45x39 will not yield in power.

      DE AK-74 1377 J. DE M4A1 1571 J. DE RPK-74 1567 J. What and where is the M4A1 weak?
      Quote: DesToeR
      There is no need to write about AR and other SMGs - this is verbiage and nothing more.

      No, this is the division of army weapons by rate of fire. AR, it's 60-80 rounds per minute. SMG, it's 80-100 rounds per minute. In general, there is a sea of ​​these categories of rate of fire.
      Quote: DesToeR
      So the M4 is an "assault" weapon?

      No, of course. Read again what I wrote about the M4.
      Quote: DesToeR
      If so, then the United States adopted the Soviet concept of individual small arms.

      Not certainly in that way. Yes, they don’t release assault weapons, they don’t see the point of making these ersatz. But the presence of assault weapons in other countries (in the USSR, let's say easier) is recognized.
      Quote: DesToeR
      for BOTH of these cartridges were designed for individual soldier's AUTOMATIC weapons.

      Nope. An analogue of the NATO 7,62x51 mm cartridge is the 7,62x54 mm cartridge. The Soviet cartridge 7,62x39 mm had no analogues in the world. Except Germany since the Second World War. And just like the 7,62x54 mm cartridge, this same NATO cartridge still feels great to this day. In its segment.
      1. oking
        oking 4 July 2016 21: 16
        -2
        Quote: DesToeR
        And both of these cartridges for individual AUTOMATIC weapons gave way to a little impulse cartridges, as well as samples of weapons based on them.

        Uh, no. Do not confuse the American and Soviet concepts. The American concept was based on full self-loading on a rifle cartridge. Including the so-called company machine gun. The Soviet concept was based on the ersatz of self-loading, but with a built-in submachine gun in the form of a bonus. In this case, the so-called the company machine gun fed on other ammunition, which worsened logistics.
        Quote: DesToeR
        The USA with a cartridge of 7,62x51 NATO crap in Vietnam in full.

        Why don't they know about this? Although, their M16 in a guerrilla war were much more appropriate than M14. the war was not real, semi-partisan. Therefore, a full-fledged army weapon was not always needed.
        Quote: DesToeR
        No need to dissemble, I didn’t give you machine guns as an example, but automatic rifles. And for machine guns it was not worthwhile to start up this whole epic with a new rifle cartridge - the old ones were well suited.

        Old approached poorly. In view of their simply wild power. Therefore, for the so-called they did not fit company machine guns. So they took the cartridge of 7,62x51 mm NATO. A good cartridge for company machine guns, by the way.
      2. The comment was deleted.
  • Chtononibrator
    Chtononibrator 4 July 2016 21: 55
    0
    The author contradicts himself. Either he had the teaching staff adopted in 1942, then finally decided in 1943. You need to be more careful with the facts.
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR 5 July 2016 16: 10
    0
    Quote: oking
    Negative thing, the barrel does not cool, accuracy is lost. M4 will now extend to 409 mm

    Is lengthening due to the incomplete turnover of a heavy bullet in the barrel?
    Quote: oking
    What and where is the M4A1 weak?

    Weak, it meant, as an argument, especially if you consider that a person is "enough" and 18J.
    Quote: oking
    AR, it's 60-80 rounds per minute. SMG, it's 80-100 rounds per minute. In general, there is a sea of ​​these categories of rate of fire.

    With us, this division goes into machine guns and light machine guns - without any overseas sophisticated abbreviations.
    Quote: oking
    No, of course. Read again what I wrote about the M4.

    I do not see a fundamental difference in the concept of these two models - hence the conclusion that the United States went the Soviet way of reducing the size of weapons, but on its slightly more powerful cartridge. After all, before the M4 in the United States, automatic versions of the M16 were developed.
    Quote: oking
    Yes, they don’t release assault weapons, they don’t see the point of making these ersatz.

    And what is "assault" weapon vaasche? The infantryman is given an "average" weapon to solve a complex of tasks, so your division into assault and non-assault is incomprehensible. What is the difference?
    Quote: oking
    An analogue of the NATO 7,62x51 mm cartridge is the 7,62x54 mm cartridge.

    I did not write about analogs, but about the fallacy of the concept. And the fact that the mistake was undoubtedly. No one in the United States would develop and adopt a new rifle cartridge for machine guns only. 7,62x51 was developed specifically for the soldier's new individual automatic weapon, the use in machine guns is a consequence, not a cause. If you argue that the USSR made a mistake with the 7,62x39 cartridge and weapons based on it (AK, AKM), then it must be admitted that the Americans also gave up with 7,62x51. De facto, they buried a lot of money for a new machine-gun cartridge, although the "old" ones were more than good. The analogue 7,62x51 primarily (for the USA) was the .30-06 Springfield cartridge (7,62x63 mm), and not at all 7,62x54R.
    1. oking
      oking 6 July 2016 19: 13
      0
      Quote: DesToeR
      Is lengthening due to the incomplete turnover of a heavy bullet in the barrel?

      The lengthening is associated with the need to increase the combat rate of fire of this weapon. To SMG level.
      Quote: DesToeR
      that a person "suffices" and 18J.

      In which place? If I am not mistaken, civilian (limited defeat) weapons are permitted up to 91 J.
      Quote: DesToeR
      With us, this division goes into machine guns and light machine guns - without any overseas sophisticated abbreviations.

      My condolences. Especially if you remember the DP "light machine gun", which was not a machine gun.
      Quote: DesToeR
      After all, before the M4 in the United States, automatic versions of the M16 were developed.

      What did you mean? M16 have always been automatic. From birth.
      Quote: DesToeR
      The United States followed the Soviet path of reducing the size of weapons, but on its slightly more powerful cartridge.

      It’s even somehow not funny. Although the new M4 (in the civilian version of the Colt Expanse M4) just has some chances to supplant the M16. The fact that they will tighten the density of fire is understandable. It is not clear what will happen there with accuracy of fire.
      Quote: DesToeR
      the division into assault and non-assault is not clear. What's the Difference?

      The difference is that you don't know the basics of shooting. And also the fact that "assault weapons" have nothing to do with assaults. It's just such a name, as they say, invented by Hitler in 1944. Since I am not Hitler, then I am clearly not relevant here. Weapon 1 notch lower than a full-fledged army weapon and effective at a range of 300 m (army at a range of 400 m). For some kind of special operations or for arming auxiliary personnel it is quite suitable. For mass arming the army, no. Due to its insufficient range effectiveness.
      Quote: DesToeR
      7,62x51 was developed specifically for the soldier’s new individual automatic weapons, the use of machine guns is a consequence, not a reason.

      Self-loading weapons of a soldier. M14, this is a self-loading rifle. Although there are SFW modifications. Little.
      Usually come complete with handbrakes (formerly with automatic rifles) and with "rotniks" (actually platoon machine guns) on the same cartridge. I do not understand your excitement about this.
      Quote: DesToeR
      If you claim that the USSR was mistaken with the 7,62x39 cartridge and weapons based on it (AK, AKM), then we must admit that the Americans with 7,62x51 gave a blunder.

      The relationship between these patrons is not clear to me. The 7,62x51 mm NATO cartridge is analogous to the 7,62x54 mm cartridge. To this day it is used as a cartridge for the American "company" machine gun.
      You need to understand one simple thing, between the M14 and the AK-47 there was nothing at all in common. Well, absolutely nothing. Do not compare them somehow.
      1. murriou
        murriou 26 September 2016 15: 50
        0
        if we recall the DP "light machine gun", which was not even a machine gun.

        Just open day today. laughing
        And what is DP?
        What is a machine gun?
        What is a light machine gun?
        What is the difference between them all?
        What are the signs of this?
        Tell the world your innermost knowledge! lol
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR 5 July 2016 16: 24
    +1
    Quote: oking
    The Soviet concept was based on the ersatz of self-loading, but with a built-in submachine gun in the form of a bonus.

    And what is the "ersatz nature" of the Soviet concept? The Russians came to her through the WWII experience. T.N. the concept of "full-fledged" ground forces and machine guns in the USSR was tested in the late 30s - early 40s. It was deliberately abandoned in the USSR.
    Quote: oking
    In this case, the so-called the company machine gun fed on other ammunition, which worsened logistics.

    Today practically all the armies of the world have gone to the "deterioration" of logistics - and nothing.
    Quote: oking
    Why don't they know about this? Although, their M16 in a guerrilla war were much more appropriate than M14. the war was not real, semi-partisan. Therefore, a full-fledged army weapon was not always needed.

    What is a "complete" weapon? Is it the one that, exclusively in a shooting range, can hit the target at 400m and is capable of knocking down a horse in terms of power? The military does not need this bullshit weighing 4-6 kg for a line infantryman. And what is the difference between a semi-guerrilla war and a global one? The goal remains the same - a person.
    1. oking
      oking 6 July 2016 19: 15
      0
      Quote: DesToeR
      De facto, they buried a lot of money for a new machine-gun cartridge, although the "old" ones were more than good. An analogue of 7,62x51, first of all (for the USA) was the .30-06 Springfield cartridge (7,62x63 mm), and not at all 7,62x54R.

      This is utter nonsense. Max bullet energy:
      1x7,62 mm, machine gun Maxim or SGM, bullet "D" - 54 J.
      2. The cartridge 7,62x51 NATO - 3715 J.
      3. The cartridge 7,62 × 63 mm (.30-06 Springfield) - 4128 J.
      Guess which cartridges have more similar numbers?
      Quote: DesToeR
      And what is the "ersatzness" of the Soviet concept?

      That it kills badly. And just this is the main task of army weapons.
      Quote: DesToeR
      The Russians came to her through WWII experience.

      Soviet, to begin with. In addition, examining the post-war models of small arms, the suspicion creeps in that the "WW2 experience" has swept past them. They just didn't understand him. The plinth level of professionalism in this area did not allow this.
      Not a single normal army in the world was armed with analogues of AK, PM and APS. Especially masterpiece in its insanity APS. But they understood it even then and slowly almost immediately leaked it. AK leaked in the 70s. PM is slowly draining now.
      Quote: DesToeR
      T.N. the concept of "full-fledged" ground forces and machine guns in the USSR was tested in the late 30s - early 40s. It was deliberately abandoned in the USSR.

      The fact that in the USSR they could not do normal self-loading on a rifle cartridge is very significant. Even a "sniper" SVD without optics for arming an ordinary soldier most likely would not fit. There is nothing to say about SVT. As a result, the asset on this topic is zero. Although since the 70s of the last century, this topic has become irrelevant.
      And the "company" machine gun, more or less normal, began to be made only now (Pecheneg). And then all these RP / PC, this is nothing more than laughter through tears.
      Quote: DesToeR
      Today practically all the armies of the world have gone to the "deterioration" of logistics - and nothing.

      Having won as weapons. And the USSR went for it, having lost as weapons.
      Quote: DesToeR
      What is a "complete" weapon?

      That which at a range of 400-450 meters (depending on whether it fires in bursts or single shots) with a quality hit is guaranteed to bring down the enemy with 1 bullet.
      Quote: DesToeR
      And what is the difference between partisan warfare and global warfare? The goal remains the same - man.

      Weird question. Well, at least the fact that there is no clear front line. And there are a lot of trees.
  • Bormanxnumx
    Bormanxnumx 5 July 2016 18: 59
    0
    Quote: oking
    Quote: serzh sibiryak
    But nothing that a bullet from the TT pierces a person to fly?

    This is bad. With a good bullet hit, the victim’s body should not leave. She must completely transfer her energy to him.

    From a bullet of an army rifleman, it is required to apply the deepest and widest wound channel, which can be ensured by the design of the bullet and its speed at the time of impact. A TT bullet passing the chest to the departure will give the carcass no less than joules than the MP bullet stuck there.
    1. AK64
      AK64 5 July 2016 19: 51
      0
      From a bullet of an army rifleman, it is required to apply the deepest and widest wound channel, which can be ensured by the design of the bullet and its speed at the time of impact. A TT bullet passing the chest to the departure will give the carcass no less than joules than the MP bullet stuck there.

      You're wrong.

      First, the weapon is not a hole punch, and requires killrather than "leave the channel".
      And secondly, that bullet that got stuck passed all the energy to the victim. But the one that got stuck conveyed everything.

      But in general, why theorize if there is experience? Around the stuck, necrosis begins
      1. Bormanxnumx
        Bormanxnumx 5 July 2016 21: 09
        0
        Quote: AK64
        First, the weapon is not a punch, and requires a kill, not a "channel to leave".

        Ensuring the widest possible wound channel is the transfer of energy from a bullet to an object.
        Quote: AK64
        And secondly, that bullet that got stuck passed all the energy to the victim. But the one that got stuck conveyed everything.

        BRAVO! It is only frustrating when, after the bullet has given up a bit of energy and got stuck in a precious carcass, it is not enough strength to put this carcass to sleep.
        If you take 9Pair and 9PM cartridges with FMJ bullets, then by your logic 9Pairs. flawed, because it will provide a break through where 9PM gets stuck and solemnly transfers all the energy? Only after passing through, the 9Pair bullet will leave more energy in the body due to the longer wound channel.
        1. AK64
          AK64 5 July 2016 22: 12
          0
          Ohhh ...

          Don't ... I can't drink so much
          1. Bormanxnumx
            Bormanxnumx 6 July 2016 17: 37
            0
            What bothers you in my example?
        2. oking
          oking 6 July 2016 17: 48
          0
          Quote: BORMAN82
          and solemnly transmit ALL energy?

          In fact, all or not all is not very important.
          It is important how much and for what period of time. Although, of course, it is highly desirable that all. Because the energy reserve of bullets is not very large, and just what will fly out may not be enough.
          1. Bormanxnumx
            Bormanxnumx 6 July 2016 19: 01
            0
            Quote: oking
            In fact, all or not all is not very important.
            It is important how much and for what period of time. Although, of course, it is highly desirable that all. Because the energy reserve of bullets is not very large, and just what will fly out may not be enough.

            You want to say that in my specific example (9PM versus 9Para), the 9PM cartridge will transmit (oh, the word sounds somehow bad :)) MORE ENERGY and will be more efficient compared to the 9Para cartridge. ?
            1. oking
              oking 6 July 2016 19: 25
              0
              Quote: BORMAN82
              You want to say that in my specific example (9PM versus 9Para), the 9PM cartridge will transmit (oh, the word sounds somehow bad :)) MORE ENERGY and will be more efficient compared to the 9Para cartridge. ?

              What matters here is not the initial energy of the bullet, but the final energy on the body of the victim. Therefore, a lot will depend on the firing distance.
              But according to the PM-Para, nothing will envy the firing distance if we do not consider distances further than 50 m. So, the power reserve of the Para bullet is such that at a distance of 50 m it will have a final energy greater than the PM bullet at the muzzle end. And although the efficiency of energy transfer of a PM bullet is noticeably higher than that of a Para bullet, anyway, the effect of a Para bullet, due to its energy supply, will be higher sooner.
              1. Bormanxnumx
                Bormanxnumx 6 July 2016 19: 46
                0
                Quote: oking
                And although the energy transfer efficiency of the PM bullet is noticeably higher than the Para bullets, anyway,

                From this place, please in more detail- why is it suddenly that a PM bullet has a much better energy transfer (it was mentioned above that FMJ bullets)?
                1. oking
                  oking 6 July 2016 19: 56
                  0
                  Quote: BORMAN82
                  why is it suddenly a bullet PM energy transfer is noticeably better

                  Because she has a significantly worse ballistic coefficient. In the external Baltic, this is a minus. And in the wound, just the opposite, plus. In addition, the diameter of the PM bullet is larger than the vapor bullet. And for wound ballistics, this is also better. Those. due to these two factors, it will slow down more actively and its transmission of energy will be sharper.
                  But, I repeat again, PM is like a dead poultice. This is originally a police pistol with all the ensuing circumstances. And even firing at him point-blank from the enemy gives no guarantees. Exactly the same as shooting point-blank from the TT. And for a normal army pistol, guarantees should be at a distance of up to 50 m. This is the same as with a PY, for example.
                  1. Bormanxnumx
                    Bormanxnumx 6 July 2016 20: 13
                    0
                    Dear Oking, I recommend that you take a look at the forums where they calculate the penetration of a bullet of solid materials - there is not taken into account the ballistic coefficient only the speed, the mass of the bullet and its diameter through which the cross-sectional area of ​​this bullet is calculated. In our cases, the cross-sectional areas of bullets are equal with an error of a couple percent. So why the PM bullet should give energy more sharply, clearly emphasize the necessary :))
                    1. oking
                      oking 6 July 2016 20: 18
                      0
                      Quote: BORMAN82
                      I recommend that you take a look at the forums where they calculate the penetration of a bullet of solid materials - the ballistic coefficient is not taken into account there

                      And where does the bullet penetration? We were not talking about this, we were talking about the transfer of energy by a bullet. These are different things with penetration.
                      Quote: BORMAN82
                      In our cases, the cross-sectional areas of bullets are equal with an error of a couple percent. So why the PM bullet should give energy sharper, clearly emphasize clear :))

                      Then, probably, it should be brought to your attention that the PM bullet has a caliber of 9,0 mm only according to the Soviet measuring system. And according to the accepted in the rest of the world, its caliber is 9,2 mm. Accordingly, the Para bullet according to the Soviet system of measurements has a caliber of 8,8 mm.
                      Stressed enough?
                      1. Bormanxnumx
                        Bormanxnumx 6 July 2016 21: 19
                        0
                        in the USSR and Zabugrom, normal people took measurements not with a system, but with a micrometer in extreme cases with a caliper. So who is there 9Para. It has ? The difference in diameter with PM 2,5% - see, I did not deceive you.
                      2. oking
                        oking 6 July 2016 23: 07
                        0
                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        in the USSR and Zabugrom, normal people took measurements not with a system, but with a micrometer in extreme cases with a caliper. So who is there 9Para. It has ? The difference in diameter with PM 2,5% - see, I did not deceive you.

                        Those. instead of saying thank you for enlightening you, you started verbiage. Oh well.
                        By the way, there is no need for measurements with a micrometer. Because for example, a PM bullet may be 9,22 ... 9,27 mm in size. And this is normal.
                        And yet you are trying to deceive everyone. It was about the cross-sectional area. And about a couple of percent difference. In fact, the difference is almost 5%. This is noticeably more than "a couple of percent".
                      3. Bormanxnumx
                        Bormanxnumx 7 July 2016 07: 28
                        0
                        Dear, it is you who should thank me for understanding the diameters of bullets. And in order to avoid embarrassment, when you start to smear in a decent society about how, when you scooped a PM bullet with a diameter of 8,8 mm, I will tell you another simple truth - we have a caliber of weapons (not a bullet but a barrel)
                        measured at the bottom of the rifling, and in the west along the fields of rifling.
                        Let me take my leave :)
                        PS When you have the inspiration to photograph a page from a secret book (our conversation about the relationship between the penetration of a carcass by a bullet and its score. Coefficient), discard me - my joy will have no limits.
                      4. oking
                        oking 7 July 2016 08: 52
                        0
                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        Dear, it is you who should thank me for understanding the diameters of bullets.

                        Enchanting statement. Especially considering the fact that I told you a couple of comments back.
                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        And to avoid embarrassment

                        Here you just could not be avoided, for some reason you did not know. Therefore, speak now, although it would be more appropriate to keep silent.
                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        I’ll tell you one more simple truth - we have a caliber of weapons (not a bullet but a barrel)
                        measured at the bottom of the rifling, and in the west along the fields of rifling.

                        Have you decided to tell me what I told you before? This is original.
                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        take a picture from the secret book

                        Why is it secret? I wrote special literature, not secret literature.
                        Quote: BORMAN82
                        skinte me - my joy will have no limits

                        Now I certainly will not throw it off. So you don’t tell me then the same thing, here’s how with measuring caliber.
                2. Bormanxnumx
                  Bormanxnumx 6 July 2016 21: 25
                  0
                  Quote: oking
                  And where does the bullet penetration? We were not talking about this, we were talking about the transfer of energy by a bullet. These are different things with penetration.

                  Throw a link to the public review, a formula where, when calculating the transfer of energy by a bullet, there is such a value as a ballistic coefficient.
                  And I will "sprinkle ashes on my head" :)
                3. oking
                  oking 6 July 2016 23: 15
                  0
                  Quote: BORMAN82
                  Throw a link to the public review, a formula where, when calculating the transfer of energy by a bullet, there is such a value as a ballistic coefficient.

                  I won’t throw it. Where to find it on the internet, I don’t know. But I am not going to photograph and lay out pages from special literature. So, look for yourself.
                  PS. It is strange that, in general, elementary understandable things cause you such questions. If you are interested in ballistics, then such things should be clear to you intuitively.
  • oking
    oking 6 July 2016 17: 44
    0
    Quote: BORMAN82
    From a bullet of an army rifleman it is required to inflict the deepest and widest wound channel

    The bullet of army and hunting weapons is required to transfer all of its energy to the body of the victim. This is called a quality hit. How this will be done is the details. There are many solutions.
    Although not all energy can be transmitted. But her bullet stock is not very large, so what might fly out just might not be enough. Moreover, and this is very important, energy should be transferred in the shortest possible time.
    Those. The amount of energy transferred and the time it is transferred are critical.
    Quote: BORMAN82
    A TT bullet passing the chest to the departure will give the carcass no less than joules than the MP bullet stuck there.

    That's all that will be right through, it will be a minus. In addition, the MP bullet will slow down more sharply. As a result, at a distance of 60 m, the MP-40 bullet, hitting a soldier in the ass, will kill him on the spot. A PPSh bullet, only upset.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Aviagr
      Aviagr 6 July 2016 19: 10
      0
      You put the mare behind the cart: the bullet must first hit the object, and then think about leaving all its energy in it. There are hundreds of documented cases when German bullets got stuck in party cards, medals, buttons, sheepskin coats, etc. (I don’t know about asses - it’s a shame to boast of such an injury, if not a splinter) - i.e. DO NOT FULFILL YOUR PURPOSE, although they TRANSFERRED all the energy. So let him first enter the body (again the range), and there you’ll be lucky: maybe he ricochets off the bones a couple of times, increasing the wound channel, but even if he does, it’s not possible to put on the back of the armor in Afghanistan so that the bullet is back into the body I didn’t ricochet, and of course it’s easier. I haven’t seen anything dancing a tarantella with a hole right away (at our site a guy foolishly from a Kalnakh 5,45 hit right on the spot - only 40 lived for minutes, TSN) ... Some associations you have with strange factors .. .
      1. Bormanxnumx
        Bormanxnumx 6 July 2016 19: 36
        0
        Leave the armor plates, AK74, BACK, sheepskin coats and party cards, I gave the respected AK64 A SPECIFIC example of comparing 9PM and 9Pair bullets. having the same cross section but different energy and, accordingly, different depth of penetration into the body. Question: which of the cartridges is more effective. If the answer is -9 pair., Then I have question number two: what freak is this training 9Pair effective if it goes to the start and does not leave all the energy to the body?
        1. oking
          oking 6 July 2016 20: 08
          0
          Quote: BORMAN82
          what lyady this training 9Pair is effective if it passes to a departure and does not leave all energy to a body?

          Who told you that a Para bullet must pass right through? This is the tendency of the TT bullet, due to its small caliber.
          In addition, leaving ALL energy is DESIRABLE, but not necessary. Be sure to leave enough energy. For each specific bullet, this value is different. It depends on a million factors.
      2. oking
        oking 6 July 2016 19: 41
        0
        Quote: Aviagr
        although TRANSFERRED all the energy

        Read and understand the phrase again:
        Quote: oking
        Those. The amount of energy transferred and the time it is transferred are critical.

        Quote: Aviagr
        You have some strange associations with factors of defeat ...

        If you do not understand what is written, then anything may seem.
        Quote: Aviagr
        and there it’s how lucky: maybe it ricochets off the bones a couple of times

        In the hope of chance, normal small arms are not designed. This is just the Soviet approach, to make weapons inferior (ersatz), and then, as lucky. According to the theory of probability, it should have been driven once. And how it really was there, who knows.
        Normal army weapons at a predetermined distance with a quality hit at any point should bring down the enemy with a probability of 100%.
    3. Bormanxnumx
      Bormanxnumx 6 July 2016 19: 16
      0
      Quote: oking
      But her bullet stock is not very large, so what might fly out just might not be enough. Moreover, and this is very important, energy should be transferred in the shortest possible time.
      Those. The amount of energy transferred and the time it is transferred are critical.

      You do not assume that the bullet may simply not reach the vital organs or having lost some of the energy in the obstacle in front of the target, as there WAS in many cases getting into the elements of ammunition and weapons located on the body of the carcass.
      Quote: oking
      As a result, at a distance of 60 m, the MP-40 bullet, hitting a soldier in the ass, will kill him on the spot. A PPSh bullet, only upset.

      This is my friend, already at the level of "Fairy Tales of the Vienna Woods"
      1. oking
        oking 6 July 2016 19: 48
        0
        Quote: BORMAN82
        You do not assume that the bullet may simply not reach the vital organs

        When designing army weapons, it focuses on the defeat of vital organs. It is focused on the defeat of the central nervous system of the enemy. So more reliable.
        Quote: BORMAN82
        having lost some energy in an obstacle in front of the target

        Well, lose, then lose. What's the question?
        Quote: BORMAN82
        This is my friend, already at the level of "Fairy Tales of the Vienna Woods"

        As an argument, put forward the slogan "Soviet, the best"? So it is false.
        1. Bormanxnumx
          Bormanxnumx 6 July 2016 19: 59
          0
          Quote: oking
          When designing army weapons, it focuses on the defeat of vital organs. It is focused on the defeat of the central nervous system of the enemy. So more reliable.

          I ask in more detail about the bullets that are looking for the central nervous system, on the scent or what?
          Quote: oking
          As an argument, put forward the slogan "Soviet, the best"? So it is false.

          It’s you who’s not at the checkout — I don’t deal with the promotion of slogans here. You’re talking about the saddened soldiers with the TT bullet in the soft buttock tissues.
          1. oking
            oking 6 July 2016 20: 13
            0
            Quote: BORMAN82
            I ask in more detail about the bullets that are looking for the central nervous system, on the scent or what?

            No, it’s not necessary. The PNS will convey everything perfectly to the central nervous system itself.
            Quote: BORMAN82
            It’s you who talk about the saddened soldiers with the TT bullet in the soft buttock tissues.

            But will he be joyful?
            Moreover, this is not important, it is important that he will be alive.
            1. Aviagr
              Aviagr 7 July 2016 13: 09
              0
              to BORMAN82
              It is useless to explain to him: he is "programmed" that a stuck bullet should "scare to death" the body of a soldier, when he plugs the double hole with cigarettes and runs on, whistling cheerfully "But we don't care!" ...
              You can even make a movie of some kind on this subject (sell the script to Hollywood): Germans riddled with TT-PPSh bullets, like zombies with their hands strangle Soviet soldiers or hands throw cartridges in them - and they die from pain shock and indignation ... wassat
              1. oking
                oking 7 July 2016 13: 52
                -1
                Quote: Aviagr
                that a stuck bullet should scare the body of a soldier to death

                Fight from here, ignoramus. Learn at least the basics of wound ballistics. What is the threshold for pain shock, and what happens if this threshold is exceeded. And what they do to exceed it, also read.
                Schoolchildren have gathered here, and "they argue with authority," damn it. Kindergarten. These are usually "firmly known" that an expansive bullet is made in such a way that "the hole is larger, and then it is easier for it to reach a vital organ."
                1. Aviagr
                  Aviagr 7 July 2016 19: 14
                  0
                  Quote: oking
                  Schoolchildren have gathered here, and "they argue with authority," damn it.

                  That's it. I already wrote that a soldier almost died in my arms from an AK-74 bullet without any abstruse "expansive" words - and some on sofas theorize, picking up Vicki and other Pedias ...
                  Ballistics is one - the vital organ is affected or not plus blood loss.
                  My father still carries a fragment of a German bomb in his hand, which he caught during the evacuation at the age of 6 - it whines when the weather changes, but the doctors did not dare to disturb his hand either then or now - maybe even worse - but according to your "laws" he should was to die even then, because the "energy" all entered the body of the child, and the painful shock. Thank God he is alive and let him live, how much is measured from Above, and not by "pedrils" of pseudo-scientific fiction!
                  But I still would not wish neither you nor anyone else to experience these "ballistics" on myself.
                  However, you will also "throw" своих algae, if they exist of course - it’s better not to produce such genetics any further.
                  1. oking
                    oking 7 July 2016 20: 26
                    0
                    Quote: Aviagr
                    I already wrote that a fighter almost died in my arms from an AK-74 bullet without any abstruse "expansive" words - and some on sofas are theorizing, having picked up Vicki and other Pedias ...

                    Happy for you. Or my condolences. I just did not understand what it was written for. Therefore, two options at once, to choose from.
                    Quote: Aviagr
                    Ballistics is one - the vital organ is affected or not plus blood loss.

                    Well, what did I say? No boom boom. Not even a boom boom nearby.
                    Quote: Aviagr
                    but according to your "laws" he should have died even then, because the "energy" all entered the child's little body, and the painful shock.

                    After everything I wrote on this subject, I have only 3 options:
                    1. You do not read other people's comments, just write "answers".
                    1. You do not understand what is written in Russian.
                    2. You generally do not understand anything well.
                    I sincerely lean towards the first option. But you can easily convince me of the rest.
                    Quote: Aviagr
                    and not "fagots" of pseudo-scientific fiction!

                    Are you talking to yourself?
                    Quote: Aviagr
                    However, you will also "sprinkle" on your undergrowths, if they exist, of course - it is better not to reproduce such genetics further.

                    And then. Apparently uncomfortable with your background.
    4. The comment was deleted.
  • Bormanxnumx
    Bormanxnumx 5 July 2016 19: 38
    0
    Quote: DesToeR
    De facto, they buried a lot of money for a new machine-gun cartridge, although the "old" ones were more than good. An analogue of 7,62x51, first of all (for the USA) was the .30-06 Springfield cartridge (7,62x63 mm), and not at all 7,62x54R.
    No, well, stupid ... But we are not like that, we will not change our "orthodox pro-Orthodox" 7,62x54R in our life.
    The .30-06 Springfield is back in the hunting cartridges niche. There, thanks to the use of heavy bullets, you can unleash all the potential available in his "sickly" case.
  • kytx
    kytx 25 September 2016 18: 13
    0
    PPS is a child of war. he is just awful. he is unrealistically cool with his showy ugliness and efficiency. apocalypse machine. with all due respect, not my choice. grandfather was not at all glamorous.
  • murriou
    murriou 26 September 2016 07: 59
    0
    Quote: booki
    This cartridge was originally created for hunting rabbits and small game.

    Where does this information come from? lol
    The TT cartridge is a slightly reworked Mauser cartridge of 7,63 * 25, while the TT was not intended for hunting purposes at all, and the choice of the prototype was made based on its combat properties.
    And now I’m waiting for a story about the Mauser S-96 pistol as a hunting weapon for small game. laughing
  • murriou
    murriou 26 September 2016 08: 23
    0
    Quote: booki
    By the way, all "extremely successful and legendary" weapons on the TT cartridge after the war and as a result of the war were asked from the army with the help of a kick

    Lies.

    The replacement of the TT cartridge with a 9mm pistol cartridge occurred much later than the end of the war, and not because of claims to the cartridge, but for the sake of unification of police weapons with army ones. At the same time, they didn’t do 9 mm PP at all then, they started doing this recently - for the sake of selling weapons abroad, where the 9 * 19 parabellum cartridge is popular.

    The replacement of assault rifles with assault rifles took place all over the world after the appearance and distribution of intermediate cartridges.
    However, even after this, PPSh and PPS kept their positions for a long time: both in our army until its AK was saturated, and in foreign ones, where they were used en masse. Our software fought in Korea and Vietnam, and copies were made around the world. TT pistol clones are still manufactured and are in sufficient demand.

    And now we are waiting for links to documents confirming the presence of the "kick" described by him? lol
  • murriou
    murriou 26 September 2016 08: 36
    0
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Quote: booki
    But in fact, the MP40 sights were marked at 200 m. And this is very suspicious.

    The Mosin rifle sights were marked, EMNIP, up to 2 kilometers. And this is very suspicious. smile

    And with the Mauser S-96 pistol, the marking of the sight was up to 1km, so what?
  • murriou
    murriou 26 September 2016 08: 45
    0
    Quote: oking
    Because I have never seen such a claim.

    If you don’t see something, it speaks above all about the quality of your vision. Read the revelations of a certain booki - he repeatedly broadcast here that the TT cartridge is suitable only for hunting rabbits and gophers.

    At the same time, this enchanting sage deduced this deep thought exclusively from the advertising phrase that the Borchard C-93 pistol under such a cartridge is the traveler’s best weapon.
    What logic was this unique person guided by - ask him laughing
  • murriou
    murriou 26 September 2016 08: 54
    0
    Quote: oking
    I want to inform you that the ISU-152 were artillery propelled guns. And the anti-tank struggle was not part of their task.

    SU-85 and SU-100 were also artillery self-propelled guns. However, the anti-tank battle was their main purpose.

    And you also need to discover that many tanks were destroyed by anti-aircraft guns - although their main task is completely different.
    To destroy the tanks were used and heavy guns not at all AT destination, and MLRS, designed for firing at squares. There was even the destruction of armored vehicles with a 203-mm B-4 howitzer shell, which is absolutely not an anti-tank battle.

    And finally, regarding the SU-152 / ISU-152 - ask why they were nicknamed "St. John's Wort".
  • Mushroom
    Mushroom 2 October 2016 16: 59
    0
    Here are the reviews about this machine gun and a link to an interview. Sudaev’s submachine gun is convenient of course: it’s all metal, the bed is folding and folds up, it’s small. Everywhere you can push and save, but here in the battle is not reliable. Whipped up, the slightest dust and it seizes, warps. For hand-to-hand combat, all the more so: you won’t hit them, with PPSh and PPD at least with a butt you can. In general, the best, as someone believes, cannot be recognized, strongly disagree.
    http://iremember.ru/memoirs/minometchiki/putintse
    v-vasiliy-ivanovich /
    In hand-to-hand combat, you cannot fight with our machine gun, you can kill yourself. If you hit it with a butt, it can shoot spontaneously: the bolt presses the spring under the action of gravity, pushes the cartridge into the chamber and causes an arbitrary shot. It is necessary to push the shutter, so as not to stagger, not walk. It is impossible to strike sharply, it is impossible to hit either - the fuse saved a little. In our dugout, a soldier came, put an automatic machine, hit the butt with the butt on the ground, and the bolt did not stand on the fuse. The shutter passed a little, shot at the temple and killed the guy. There’s nothing to take, it’s impossible to stab too, without a bayonet. We were given Finns: on the belt or in the bootleg, but this is separate.
    It happened to shoot from the MG 34 machine gun, they were taken from the dead and used. He fired from pistols, of course they liked the German more. In terms of convenience, reliability - and pistols, machine guns and machine guns are much more reliable than ours. TT could fall easily when dropped. A fuse, you can’t even name it, it’s just such a valve. I hit it, it flew out and the shutter was free again.