Military Review

PDW Ammo

79
PDW Ammo



The term PDW appeared at the end of 80's. It stands for weapondesigned for servicemen "second line". These are artillery crews, crews of combat vehicles, helicopter pilots, engineering units, etc. These categories of persons full-size weapon is not suitable, because has too large dimensions and weight. According to the requirements of the military, the enemy had to hit the enemy in a bullet-proof vest (NATO standard CRISAT) at a distance of up to 200 m. In order to fulfill the conflicting requirements, it was necessary to create new ammunition that had the mass of a pistol cartridge and penetration capability of the intermediate one.

The first were the Belgians with their 5.7x28 mm cartridge for the FN Five-Seven pistol and the P-90 PP.



Cartridges 5,7x28 mm with different types of bullets


This cartridge was created to replace the standard pistol ammunition 9x19 mm PARA in the armies of NATO countries. However, due to disagreements, the decision on standardization within the framework of the alliance was not taken. Nevertheless, the Belgian development has received some distribution in the world as a weapon of special divisions, as well as self-defense means in some countries.

The cartridge has a flanged sleeveless bottle sleeve with a length of 28 mm, which contains a very light pointed bullet. A light bullet has a fairly small transverse load, but it also carries considerable energy. This made it possible to ensure good penetration and destructive action within the target range and a rapid loss by the bullet of destructive power beyond its borders. The maximum pressure in the weapon chamber reaches 345 MPa, which significantly exceeds the pressure when fired with a standard 9x19 mm PAIR, although the return has decreased by one third. Many varieties of cartridge with various types of bullets were created, although the main in power structures is SS190 armor-piercing.



Cartridges with armor-piercing bullet SS190


The SS190 cartridge bullet has a length of 21,6 mm, a mass of 2,02 g. And develops an initial velocity when fired from the PP of the 715 PP m / s, and from the barrel of a pistol - 650 m / s. A special feature of the projectile is the presence of a steel heat-strengthened core in an aluminum shell. At a distance of 25 m the penetration of a Level II body armor and penetration into the gelatinous block to a depth of 25 cm is ensured, at the 200 distance m the Level IIIA body armor penetrates; m. The effective range when firing from the PP is 50 m, and the maximum range of the bullet - 48 m (for a pistol, these figures are 150 m and 200 m, respectively). During the 1800 of flight, the bullet loses most of its energy and is not capable of inflicting fatal injuries, flying 50.



L191 Tracer Cartridges


The L191 tracer cartridge creates a trace that is clearly visible during the day throughout the 200. The ballistics and striking effects are similar to the SS190 cartridge. According to the classification, ATF is considered an armor-piercing and its civil circulation is limited.



Expansive cartridge SS198LF


The expansive cartridge SS192 contains a bullet of 1,8 mass, which has an aluminum core in a copper shell and is not able to penetrate a bulletproof vest. In the bow there is a notch with a diameter of 0,8 mm and a depth of 7,6 mm. At the end of 2004, the release of this cartridge was discontinued and the launch of a new SS195 ammunition, containing no lead, was launched. Also available is the SS198LF cartridge, which has an initial speed on 30 m / s more than its predecessor.



Subsonic cartridge SB193


The SB193 subsonic cartridge contains a bullet with a mass of 3,6 g and a speed of 305 m / s. Cartridges with this bullet are designed for firing weapons with a silencer. It has less recoil momentum compared to the standard SS190 due to the significantly lower bullet speed and reduced gunpowder charge. Turnover of the cartridge in the civilian arms market is prohibited.



Training cartridges T194


The training cartridge T194 contains a bullet of 1,8 mass with an aluminum core in a copper shell. The ballistics is similar to the expansive SS192 / 195 and is considered their early version. The release was discontinued back in 2002.



Sports Cartridges SS197SR


Sports cartridges SS196SR \ SS197SR contain a V-Max bullet of 2,6 mass with a lead core manufactured by Hornady. A distinctive feature of these bullets is the presence of a polymer tip, pressed into the nasal recess. This made it possible to significantly improve ballistics and increase the expansive ability of the bullet. The initial speed when firing a pistol with the SS196SR chuck is 500 m / s, and when firing SS197SR - 530 m / s. These cartridges are not considered to be armor-piercing and their sale on the civilian arms market is allowed.

The disadvantages of the cartridge 5,7х28 mm include the relatively high cost and complexity of manufacturing, low prevalence, loud sound and a strong muzzle flash when firing a pistol. Advantages - very low weight BC, high flatness of the trajectory and the damaging ability of the bullet. Weapons for this cartridge has been recognized not only in the power structures of various countries, but also in the criminal environment. For example, in Mexico, the FN Five-Seven pistol is very popular among drug dealers for the ability to pierce standard police flak jackets, for which he received the nickname “police killer”. Gradually, the prevalence of these cartridges and weapons for firing them increases, despite the significant cost.

The Germans did not want to lag behind the Belgian competitors and created their own version of the PDW weapon. In 2001, HK designed an 4,6x30 mm cartridge for firing from the HK MP-7 PP. Initially, the armor-piercing bullet of this cartridge was already able to penetrate the protection of the standard CRISAT at a distance of 150 m.



Cartridges mm 4,6x30


The 4,6X30 mm cartridge has a flangeless bottle-shaped sleeve of 30 mm length containing a bullet of very small diameter. The maximum pressure in the chamber when fired - 400 MPa. Cartridges with armor-piercing, enveloped and expansive bullets were created.



Cartridges with different types of bullets


A DM11 indexed bullet cartridge has a mass of 6,5 g. And contains a single heat-strengthened steel bullet of 2 mass with a copper coating. The initial speed of the bullet is 720 m / s, and at a distance of 200 m it continues to fly at a speed of 425 m / s. The cartridge has a significant penetrating and damaging ability of the bullet, providing penetration of CRISAT standard body armor at a distance of 300 m, at a distance of 100 m punches a block of gelatin 28 cm thick and makes 1,5 times a wider wound canal compared to a bullet of 9 XX19 mm cartridge PAIR. The lethal effect is maintained at a distance of up to 770 m, and the maximum range is 1360 m.

The cartridge with the expansive bullet has a mass of 6,5 g. And contains a bullet of 2 g mass from a copper-zinc alloy. The initial speed of the bullet is 700 m / s, and at a distance of 200 m it continues to fly at a speed of 586 m / s. The cartridge has a significant damaging ability of a bullet, but is not able to penetrate a bulletproof vest.

The bullet-wrapped cartridge has a mass of 7 g. And contains a bullet of 2,7 g mass with a core of an alloy of lead and antimony. The initial bullet speed is 600 m / s, and at a distance of 200 m it still has a speed of 463 m / s. The cartridge is optimized for hitting unprotected targets and provides high accuracy when firing bursts.

According to the test results, it was revealed that the Belgian cartridge provides for 27% greater efficiency for unprotected targets and equal for protected ones, as well as less sensitive to temperature differences. In addition, there was a problem with a low resource barrel under the German cartridge. The Germans attempted to create an UCP army pistol for their cartridge, but the development was soon frozen due to unsatisfactory test results.

The Chinese did not stand aside and created in 1994 their own cartridge 5,8х21 mm and a weapon under it. A QSZ-92 gun and a QCW-05 PP were created.



Cartridges mm 5,8x21


The Chinese cartridge has a flangeless sleeve with a length of 21 mm and contains a bullet of 3 mass with a steel heat-treated core. Ammunition with an armor-piercing and subsonic bullet was created. The armor-piercing bullet has an initial speed of 530 m / s when firing from PP (480 m / s when firing a pistol) and is able to pierce the wall of a steel helmet 1,3 mm and 5 cm thick with a pine bar behind it at a distance to 100 m. Striking action on an unprotected target comparable to NATO 9x19 mm PAIR.
Chinese cartridge and weapons to it have not yet received wide distribution outside of the PRC.

PDW and cartridges to it were created in other countries. For example, in the Czech Republic, India, Sweden, the United States, samples were created that never went beyond the stage of experimental products. The Czechs have created a rather interesting complex for a cartridge of a very small caliber 4,38 Libra, in Sweden, on the basis of standard ammunition 9x19 mm, a cartridge of caliber 6,25 mm with a sabot bullet with a plastic pallet was created. In the United States and India, we took the path of creating a new ammunition by shortening the sleeve of the intermediate cartridge 5,56х45 mm of NATO.

The USSR did not pay enough attention to this topic. The analogue of the Western PDW PP can be considered the Soviet small-sized machine gun AKS-74U, however it uses the standard intermediate ammunition 5,45x39 mm. The decision to use a regular cartridge had its advantages and disadvantages. Cartridge 5,45x18 mm The MPC cannot be considered suitable for PDW due to its extremely low power and sufficiently low bullet speed (about 130 J and 315 m / s)
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  1. AK64
    AK64 5 July 2016 08: 51
    +5
    But there is here .... some (we will not poke a finger) which in each topic cartridge 7.62x25 scold

    I just didn’t understand what horses are going to shoot with a light bullet at 200m and higher: intuition protests - the easier the bullet, the faster it loses speed and, therefore, energy.
    1. berezin1987
      5 July 2016 09: 39
      +2
      The ballistic coefficient depends not only on the mass and caliber of the bullet, but also on its shape.
  2. AlNikolaich
    AlNikolaich 5 July 2016 08: 54
    +1
    In general, is such a cartridge needed? Pistol shooting at 150 meters? The slaughter range of 770 meters ... And what about the stopping effect? There is nothing to fence the garden!
    1. berezin1987
      5 July 2016 09: 06
      +6
      And who was talking about pistol shooting at 150 m? Shooting at this range is possible with a submachine gun. The parameters of the cartridge simply allow you to use it in a gun with a little less efficiency.
    2. Orionvit
      Orionvit 5 July 2016 16: 08
      -1
      Indeed, there is nothing to fence in the garden. It is certainly interesting to read the opinions of various "experts", but in my opinion, Russian ammunition developers are not stupid people, and they have long figured out the main trends and options.
  3. Skubudu
    Skubudu 5 July 2016 10: 31
    +5
    "The USSR did not pay due attention to this topic. An analogue of Western PDW PPs can be considered the Soviet small-sized machine gun AKS-74U" (c) - And it was done right.
    I will assume that in a combat situation, if the crew has to leave the burning tank, the tanker will prefer to have a machine gun (small-sized) under a full-fledged machine gun cartridge rather than a PP with firing capabilities of up to 200m. yes what 200m there .... 150 maximum.
    1. berezin1987
      5 July 2016 11: 43
      +1
      AKS-74 is certainly more powerful than most western PDWs, but it weighs about 3 kg and has a length of 490 mm with a folded butt. It is still too large for everyday wear. I like the German MP-7A1, it weighs a little over 2 kg with an equipped magazine and has a length of 415 mm. PDW must always be on the fighter like a gun, otherwise in a critical situation it will be left in a damaged armored car or helicopter.
      1. gladcu2
        gladcu2 5 July 2016 16: 01
        +2
        Berezin

        It weighs just like a machine gun. But he does not need special ammunition. And he has the same size as the PP.

        I do not see the need for the army in special software.

        PP is for the police special forces.
    2. would
      would 5 July 2016 16: 15
      +2
      I will assume that in a combat situation, if the crew has to leave the burning tank, the tanker will prefer to have a machine gun (small-sized) under a full-fledged machine gun cartridge rather than a PP with firing capabilities of up to 200m. yes what 200m there .... 150 maximum.


      But it’s worth mentioning that the full-fledged assault rifle used will have excess energy for a small-sized and, of course, relatively light weapon and in terms of effective firing range, at best it is not much better than the PDW cartridge. It affects the short barrel and the redundancy of the cartridge for him does not increase it. And just the same, the tanker would prefer to have a lighter, more compact, with less impact, PDW which in terms of effective firing range will not be much inferior (or even inferior) to a machine with the same dimensions. By the way: AKS74U what effective range of fire? 300 meters? And the AK74 in my 650 with the same cartridge. It remains only to find out what effective shooting range the AKS74U will have when switching to a cartridge from PDW and maintaining the barrel length. I would not be surprised if it turns out that the same, but with not slightly reduced returns at least.


      In fact, ammunition for modern PDWs is needed for this: Pistol ammunition has insufficient power and insufficient penetration and firing range, intermediate ones have excessive power which, with a short barrel, does not transform proportionally into firing range. And the cartridges described in the article should be the golden mean.
      1. Skubudu
        Skubudu 5 July 2016 16: 41
        +5
        Outside of the tank, the tanker is waiting for the enemy armed with AK-47/74, M-16/4, in body armor 3 and above, at least a protection class.
        Firstly PDW against vests of class 3 and above is useless
        Secondly, after 10 minutes of the battle you will run out of ammo and take them wherever it is.
        And I'll take 5.45x39 from the infantry.
        PDW is good for photos and not for war.
        1. would
          would 5 July 2016 16: 52
          +2
          What awaits the tanker outside the tank does not affect what he can take with him inside the tank and normally store it, or even wear it. If you talk like that, it would be nice to take an assault body armor, an assault helmet, a light machine gun with a bunch of bullets, etc. inside the tank.


          Secondly, after 10 minutes of the battle you will run out of ammo and take them wherever it is.
          And I'll take 5.45x39 from the infantry.


          After 10 minutes of battle, the tankman, if he does not run away, will end soon, but practice shows that he will end even earlier. And the reason here is far from the enemy assault rifles. From the infantry (which is by no means just around the corner) to take cartridges for an assault rifle which you do not have in your hands, you could not get out with it, the idea is to say the least, so-so. To get out of a wrecked tank, under fire, without an automatic rifle on his neck, look for AKSU, put it on, under fire, and then try to get out of it through, to put it mildly, not quite a dimensional hatch, is also not a good idea.

          PDW is used by a bunch of units around the world and practice has shown that for its conditions, PDW is good for war, unlike PP or assault rifles, you can’t even take pictures with the latter normally, there is no place.
          1. CTABEP
            CTABEP 10 July 2016 12: 55
            +1
            In-in. When the tank is knocked down and burns, I think the last thing that comes to mind is the ingenious thoughts that you need to take the machine, and even the BC to it, and the AKSU is not particularly convenient for such maneuvers. Jumped out of the tank alive before the explosion of BC - thank God already.
            Well, about the accuracy of the AKSU, there’s a separate conversation - something I think that PDW will be more accurate at a distance of 100 + meters. In general, the same FN P90 is convenient for crews of armored vehicles - it will not be much for the store to cling to, it’s light and convenient.
        2. would
          would 5 July 2016 17: 10
          +1
          Speaking of

          Firstly PDW against vests of class 3 and above is useless


          Everything is "not so simple". There is a CBJ-MS PDW that uses a 6.5x25 round which has such armor penetration.

          "a standard test target of the CRISAT type (body armor simulator) is guaranteed to be penetrated by a CBJ-MS cartridge bullet at a distance of 230 meters, a 7mm thick steel armor plate (board of the Soviet MT-LB armored personnel carrier) - at a distance of 50 meters"

          And this is no longer a 3rd class bulletproof vest. So there are prospects for increasing armor penetration if required.
          1. Skubudu
            Skubudu 5 July 2016 17: 28
            +3
            Let's turn to practice, to Western practice. What are the most armed tankers in the world armed with?
            That's right, the Abrams crew is armed with an M4 automatic carbine.
            Benya Laden was killed by kotans from HK416 (5.56x45), although the battle was CQB ... in the yard and in the house.
            And the kotans armed with the MP7 have why they didn’t take it in CQB? That's right because he is only for posturing.
            1. would
              would 5 July 2016 17: 55
              +4
              We must start with the fact that in the United States there is not a single PDW that would massively equip army units, this is a relatively new thing and this is understandable. So to give such an example is the same as to assert that "Armata" is worse than T72 due to the fact that there are simply more of the latter and this allegedly testifies to the quality and relevance.

              That's right, the Abrams crew is armed with an M4 automatic carbine.


              Which also falls into the PDW category. And the crew’s opinions don’t ask themselves how they’re not particularly interested in the time of evacuation from the tank in a stressful situation with the M4. This is so, by the way.

              Benya Laden was killed by kotans from HK416 (5.56x45), although the battle was CQB ... in the yard and in the house.
              And the kotans armed with the MP7 have why they didn’t take it in CQB? That's right because he is only for posturing.


              That is, it turns out that the elite special forces take weapons for posturing? laughing He is in operation and is DEVGRU. It is worth noting that the house and the yard are all the more free than the conventional hatch of the tank, which allows it to maneuver quite well with subcompact assault rifles: HK416 with a 10-inch barrel is only 797/701 mm long. And they do not need to always be worn on themselves. This modification is just in service with DEVGRU. It is one thing to walk with 701mm and 3kg of weight, it is another thing to wear constantly and get out of the tank hatch with 415mm (MP7) and 1.8 weight. Weight without a store if that.

              Now let's turn to practice: Despite the fact that PDW with a special caliber is a fairly new creation in its modern form, it does not have mass distribution: they already mentioned the DEVGRU unit, a bunch of police around the world, other special forces both in the USA and in other countries and including the Russian Federation. Well, some DEVGRU posers, but if you think that ALL posers ...

              Modern PDWs with their own special caliber have not yet been tried, the concept itself has not been brought to mind, there are not so many samples, but now weapons from this category are very tightly used by many units that shoot in tight conditions and a lot, they don’t posturing. And that says a lot. As well as their feedback. And the idea of ​​re-equipping certain categories of military personnel with modern PDWs was born, to put it mildly, not because of posturing, but because of the real needs and shortcomings of PDWs using intermediate ammunition like the aforementioned AKSU and M4. But this idea stumbles upon the logistical problems of such large structures as the army and budget spending, and this will be much stronger than the qualities of weapons.
              1. Skubudu
                Skubudu 5 July 2016 18: 07
                +1
                I am not against finding PDW on the list of special forces weapons.
                I am against PDW as the only means of defense for crews of military vehicles.
                1. CTABEP
                  CTABEP 10 July 2016 12: 57
                  +2
                  Well, no one bothers to have a normal AKC in the amount of 1 in the tank laying except for PDW. You never know what, it’s worth a penny, it will burn along with the tank - no pity.
          2. gross kaput
            gross kaput 8 July 2016 19: 42
            -1
            Quote: rait
            Everything is "not so simple".

            That's right, most manufacturers, journalists, etc. in the description of these small-caliber wunderwafers, those who, for advertising purposes and who do not know, substitute concepts - the purpose of creating weapons is not to break through any obstacle but to defeat the target - in this case, protected by bulletproof vest, and if with penetration everything is more or less exactly then with effective defeat for him is not as good as we would like, and this is the main obstacle to the widespread introduction of such hole punchers in the army and in the police too.
            1. 4thParasinok
              4thParasinok 11 July 2016 18: 27
              0
              Quote: gross kaput
              and if with penetration it is more or less exactly equal, then with the application of an effective defeat behind it, everything is not as good as we would like, and this is the main brake on the widespread introduction of such holes in the army and the police too.

              and what caliber 5,7 is very different from 5,45 or 5,56? Justify what facts operate saying your statement?
              1. gross kaput
                gross kaput 11 July 2016 21: 05
                -1
                Quote: 4-th Paradise
                What caliber 5,7 is very different from 5,45 or 5,56?

                The issue is not the caliber itself, but the cartridge with energy at the level of 9X19 but with a light small-caliber bullet - something would be simpler than 5,7X28 and 5,54X39 ammunition for completely different weapons - the first for a pistol or submachine gun the second automatic with an obvious difference in energy and ballistics.
                1. 4thParasinok
                  4thParasinok 12 July 2016 17: 41
                  -3
                  Quote: gross kaput
                  The issue is not the caliber itself, but the cartridge with energy at the level of 9X19 but with a light small-caliber bullet - something would be simpler than 5,7X28 and 5,54X39 ammunition for completely different weapons - the first for a pistol or submachine gun the second automatic with an obvious difference in energy and ballistics.

                  There is a good old joke about a goldfish: "... first decide what you want ..."
                  1. The main purpose of the weapon is to make sure that you are not killed, but the enemy will survive a year after the first hit or not less, the important thing is that he will not be able to shoot at you now and fight. Finish and then you can. And it doesn’t matter what type your weapon belongs to - a pistol or a grenade launcher, the main thing is that you are the first shot of its enemy.
                  2. Do you need energy (the word energetics has no relation to cartridges) of a bullet in its penetrating effect, or do you need a caliber? If the second, and you are a super constructor, then come up with an efficient compact machine gun, and even better a pistol for .50 Beowulf or .500 S&W Magnum
                  1. gross kaput
                    gross kaput 13 July 2016 13: 02
                    -2
                    what did you say? Some kind of incoherent pseudo-scientific post
                    1. 4thParasinok
                      4thParasinok 26 July 2016 20: 29
                      -1
                      Quote: gross kaput
                      what did you say? Some kind of incoherent pseudo-scientific post

                      not more pseudoscientific than yours. Personally, I do not suck various "spherical horses in a vacuum" out of my finger, but use specific existing technical solutions.
                      And remember one thing - the difference of 50 joules for pistol cartridges means much more than 500 for rifle cartridges.
    3. cyberhanter
      cyberhanter 11 July 2016 23: 28
      +1
      The comparison is hardly correct, because AKSU is a shortening of a regular assault rifle (assault rifle), like the G36K / C, for example. Of ours, it is more correct to compare with PP, like Cedar or Cypress, but here I am not an expert. As for what the fighter chooses, it’s worth looking at different pdw here. So mp7 is pretty good, and what kind of aiming can you talk about at more than 200 meters? There would take away the legs. PDW is a weapon of last chance, and therefore should be convenient and not interfere during the execution of basic functions. Although this is IMHO
  4. Longbowman
    Longbowman 5 July 2016 11: 01
    0
    "The maximum pressure in the chamber of the weapon reaches 345 MPa"

    The author made a mistake. Most likely 3450MPa
    1. berezin1987
      5 July 2016 11: 16
      0
      No, I was not mistaken. Pressure when fired with a pistol cartridge rarely exceeds 240 MPa, intermediate / rifle - from 350 to 400 MPa. You have mixed up MPa with bars. 1 MPa is approximately equal to 10 bars.
  5. cth; fyn
    cth; fyn 5 July 2016 12: 34
    +2
    . units of engineering troops

    Mdya, but it’s precisely on the bodies of engineers that everyone else will attack, and in the Second World War, assault detachments were formed on the basis of engineering battalions. Why do they want to forever deprive us?
  6. Operator
    Operator 5 July 2016 12: 35
    +2
    The paradox is that everyone is fixated on increasing the penetration of PDW police bullets, while modern developments in the field of ceramic armor negated the penetration of not only army low-pulse cartridges 5,45x39 and 5,56x45, but also high-pulse 7,62x54 and 7,62xN.

    Boron carbide plate on a high molecular weight polyethylene substrate, which is part of the body armor of the "Ratnik" set, not broken ten armor-piercing bullets BZ-32 caliber 7,62 mm from a distance of 10 meters
    1. berezin1987
      5 July 2016 12: 51
      +2
      Such bulletproof vests are not yet massive and this level of protection provides far from the entire surface. The chest and back are most protected, the side armor vest usually protects only from small fragments and pistol bullets 9x19 mm. Even a modern vest with a level of protection against the B-32 bullet weighs more than 15 kg and is used for assault operations. Massive armor protection has lower protective characteristics. Bullet B-32 caliber 7,62 mm is not the most powerful in terms of armor penetration, because there are the latest cartridges of the caliber 5,45 mm 7Н39 and 7Н24.
      1. Operator
        Operator 5 July 2016 16: 30
        0
        I brought a photo of the plate of the Russian "Ratnik" complex, as it moves into the troops, the specified protection will become massive in the RA. In NATO, the analogue of this plate - ESAPI - is already widespread.

        The weight of an army body armor at the level of 15 kg is not necessary, since lighter plates can be used to withstand the firing of existing armor-piercing bullets of all calibers from 5,45 to 7,62 mm at a distance of not 10 meters (as in testing), but at 100-300 meters (driving distance fire from small arms in combined arms).

        As a response to the Russian Army, the transition to high-impulse cartridges of caliber 7,62x54 mm, equipped with armor-piercing bullets with a tungsten alloy core, is required.

        The time of the 5,45 / 5,6 mm booklet has passed.
        1. berezin1987
          5 July 2016 17: 13
          +5
          I am a supporter of the creation of weapons under the cartridge 6x49 mm. Work on it began at the end of the 80's, but was not completed until the end for well-known reasons. Under it were created machine gun, a single machine gun and a sniper rifle. A bullet of 5 g. Was accelerated in the rifle barrel to 1150 m / s, which gave the energy of the bullet 3300 J. The cartridge's power was slightly inferior to the old 7,62x54 mm, but it was superior in flatness and armor penetration. Specific energy of a bullet for different cartridges: 5.45 mm - 62 J / mm2; 5,56 mm - 71 J / mm2; 7,62 mm Sample 43 - 44 J / mm2; 7,62 mm Sample 1908 - 80 J / mm2; 6 mm - 116 J / mm2.
          1. Operator
            Operator 5 July 2016 17: 18
            +1
            Plusanul - 6x49 mm, 116 J / sq. Mm hi
          2. Droid
            Droid 24 July 2016 20: 27
            0
            There was no machine gun. 6x49 is a rifle cartridge and its kind was a rifle and machine gun, and the machine was made under 5,45
        2. gross kaput
          gross kaput 8 July 2016 20: 17
          +2
          Quote: Operator
          As a response to the Russian Army, the transition to high-impulse cartridges of caliber 7,62x54 mm, equipped with armor-piercing bullets with a tungsten alloy core, is required.

          And why not go directly to 12,7 or 14,5? what is trifling? And to hell with it that the standard AK-74 wearable BK of 300 rounds in case of replacing the infantryman’s weapon with something under 7,62X54 will weigh only 7 kg and the weapon itself is 4,5 kg as for example Vepr VPO-123 ( 7,62x54R), that it will not work quickly and accurately from such a weapon due to a significant throw-up and withdrawal, that you will have to forget about the automatic mode, and that it will not work to make an intelligent shortened sample because the cartridge is designed for a barrel length of about 700 mm and even with a barrel length of 500 mm gives an already noticeable decrease in ballistic data and a strong muzzle flame, well, not counting such trifles as a significant return affecting the fatigue of the shooter - for example, I personally, despite significant experience and the correct tight tab, after 100 shots from the SVT I feel the jerks of the butt are already painful, creating discomfort and interfering with focus on aiming.
          From all this, the conclusion smoothly follows the goat button accordion? All kinds of "fighters for independence" and other Allah-Babakhs do not wear armor, in serious conflicts between powers the losses from the shooter are at the level of 20 to 5%, so why such ideas?
          1. Operator
            Operator 8 July 2016 20: 25
            -1
            What will you pierce the American ESAPI plates of boron carbide with (BZ-10 from SVD are kept from 32 meters, there is no back injury)?

            The weight of the army body armor with the chest ESAPI is 7,5 kg, with the chest and back - 15 kg. ESAPI is the new standard in the US Army.
            1. gross kaput
              gross kaput 10 July 2016 19: 28
              +1
              Quote: Operator
              The weight of the army body armor with the chest ESAPI is 7,5 kg, with the chest and back - 15 kg. ESAPI is the new standard in the US Army.

              No need to juggle, all army BZs in the ILC and the US Army have a basic level of protection IIIA - fragments and 9X19, SAPI and ESAPI plates are optional and are taken into account according to the situation, carefully look at the photos from Iraq and Afghanistan - they clearly show that the bulk of the infantry units of the fighting "from the feet" the plate does not install - the reason is understandable too high load, which sharply increases fatigue, especially in the heat, and makes the infantryman a sedentary target, B / W with a full set of chest, dorsal and side plates in the infantry are used only by arrows on open turrets of vehicles.
          2. gross kaput
            gross kaput 8 July 2016 20: 40
            +3
            Quote: Operator
            Boron carbide fins on a high-molecular-weight polyethylene backing, included in the "Ratnik" body armor, not pierced by ten BZ-32 7,62 mm armor-piercing bullets from a distance of 10 meters

            Now, with regards to the bronchists who so delighted you, even in the era of damned tsarism, sadistic generals experimented with a disenfranchised mass of soldiers laughing driving them with different loads - in general, as a result of those experiments, it was concluded that the maximum load that does not affect the fatigue and mobility of a soldier is 13 kg, the threshold value after which there is a significant decrease in mobility of 18 kg, modern research confirms these numbers and complements. You can calculate the load on a modern soldier yourself - a machine gun with ammo, 2-4 hand grenades, communications equipment, a flask or a drinking system, a knife, a shovel, a first aid kit, a gas mask and an OZK and, by choice, a grenade launcher, disposable RPGs or shots for a seven, a box with ribbons for PKM, VPHR or a dosimeter, mine detector, communications equipment for the platoon / company level and many other amusing things, not counting "devour" and as an apotheosis, a helmet of 1,5 kg and an armor of 15 kg is not like a modern rickety recruit - here Schwarzenegger will die after a couple of km along the intersection laughing So all these miracles of engineering, holding the B-32 at point-blank range, are a purely specific product for certain situations and certain groups of military personnel, even from the point of not weight but price. And I sincerely wish you to run for several hours around the range in all this wealth, to work out the embarkation / disembarkation - not even in an armored personnel carrier / infantry fighting vehicle, but in an ordinary flatbed truck, and even at a temperature of 20-25 gr. - I'm sure there will be less enthusiasm and "advanced" ideas. laughing
            1. Operator
              Operator 8 July 2016 21: 33
              -1
              You forgot to indicate in the set of compulsory equipment a motorized rifle army body armor and its weight.

              The combined arms bulletproof vest 6Б23, having 3 class of chest protection and 2 class of back, weighs 7,4 kg, 4 class of chest protection and 2 class of back - 8,5 kg, 4 class of chest protection and 3 back class - 10,2 kg.

              The weight of the anti-fragmentation kit of the "Permyachka-O" UPC is 8,5 kg, the third level UPC - 11 kg; UPC of the fourth level - 15 kg.

              As you can see, Russian motorized rifle, not being one and all Schwarzeneggers, wear body armor with a minimum weight of 7,4-8,4 kg.

              Therefore, it is also not a problem for enemy infantrymen to move to the battlefield with ESAPI body armor weighing 7,5 kg in the minimum configuration.
              1. Operator
                Operator 9 July 2016 01: 10
                +2
                The set of protection for the new equipment "Ratnik" includes a 6B43 body armor (with ceramic plates) of class 6A, which weighs 9 kg in the minimum configuration, and 15 kg in the maximum (groin protection, side protection and shoulder pads).

                The bulletproof vest was accepted for supply by order of the Minister of Defense of Russia No. 950 of July 14 on July 2010.

                6B43 body armor is a personal protective equipment of class 6A in accordance with GOST R 50744-95 and is an element of combat equipment of servicemen of all military specialties of combat units of the ground forces, airborne forces, marine corps and special forces in all types of combat operations, including in close combat situations.

                The 6B43 bulletproof vest is designed to protect against defeat, including at close range, by small arms bullet cartridges, including armor-piercing and increased penetration, shell fragments, mines, grenades, cold steel and to reduce armor contusion injury.
                1. Operator
                  Operator 9 July 2016 01: 35
                  0
                  In a minimum configuration, the 6B43 body armor consists of:
                  - anti-fragmentation module (circular protection of the torso and neck) with a total area of ​​42-47 dm2;
                  - unified bulletproof chest and dorsal modules (corundum armor panels) with an area of ​​7,5-8,2 dm2 each;
                  - thoracic and dorsal ventilation depreciation modules.
                  1. gross kaput
                    gross kaput 10 July 2016 19: 30
                    0
                    I won’t go into the discussion - I'm tired of it, just answer me one question - did you yourself serve in the army or in the power structure?
    2. berezin1987
      5 July 2016 13: 03
      +2
      In the future, it will be possible to increase the armor penetration of small arms cartridges while maintaining a recoil momentum at an acceptable level only by further reducing the caliber and replacing the bullet core material from steel with tungsten carbide. There is simply no other way. The problem of reducing the resource of a small-caliber trunk can be solved by producing trunks with polygonal rifling.
      1. Operator
        Operator 5 July 2016 21: 06
        -3
        The resource of the barrel when firing high-speed bullets (> 1000 m / s) can be dramatically increased by switching to the Lancaster's oval-section screw thread.
      2. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok 11 July 2016 18: 37
        0
        Quote: berezin1987
        In the future, it will be possible to increase the armor penetration of small arms cartridges while maintaining a recoil momentum at an acceptable level only by further reducing the caliber and replacing the bullet core material from steel with tungsten carbide. There is simply no other way.

        strange, but the cartridges 6x49 and 6,5x39 disprove your assumptions.
    3. gladcu2
      gladcu2 5 July 2016 16: 08
      -1
      Operator

      The issue of penetration of PP is a matter of expanding weapons at the expense of the civilian sector.

      No one in their right mind will make PP for the army, which deal with the protection of this class.

      No need to look for universality in software, where it does not exist and cannot exist.

      PP is a police weapon. Not army.

      Since the article we are discussing is trying to classify the PP as an army weapon, this is why there is a break in understanding.

      PP in the army, like a cow saddle.

      This was still relevant in World War II. Now AK has already occupied a niche of necessary sufficiency.
  7. tracer
    tracer 5 July 2016 16: 19
    +3
    Shot with FN 5/7. A great gun toss a little bullet like an awl. With 9 luger no comparison. Where I aimed there and hit. For example, with a pistol it is felt that the cartridge does not open in full beauty if we can talk about one that is applicable to our discussion. It is felt that he is imprisoned under the short-range machine gun pistols. Such as the FN P90. I didn’t shoot from him. But he pawed repeatedly. For some reason, by the way, I discovered that his trunk was hanging a little .. the country as it does not affect the accuracy ... but this is not about that. This caliber is called in I America I am a police killer. FN 5/7 used to be on sale a lot now there was a problem to find ... the cartridge also appeared everywhere in stores just not reinforced but lead inside and plastic on the nose. Accurate superb flatness chuck conquering the market. The company Savage began to produce bolted rifles for hunters under it. The concept of a long direct shot from a pistol is very interesting. A compact submachine gun is generally igruha. Here, an opinion was expressed on the feasibility of manufacturing a cartridge on the basis of a sleeve 7.62 / 25 with compression of it to 5.45. The idea is great. There is a pistol cartridge for PSM but it is rather weak. Why do not do more powerful ... strange. Although they probably do not because the tasks of such MOs did not set.
    1. gladcu2
      gladcu2 5 July 2016 16: 28
      +1
      Greenhill formula.

      By the step of cutting the trunk.
      T = pitch rifling in inches
      K = Greenhill constant = 150 (for a starting bullet speed of 457 to 853 m / s) and 180 for a starting bullet speed of more than 853 m / s and 125 for pistols. These constant values ​​are valid for lead bullets with a shell of copper or its alloy. The constant is rigidly tied to the density of the bullet material, and if we were planning to shoot from aluminum bullets, the constant would be different.
      D = diameter of the bullet in inches
      L = bullet length in inches

      rifling pitch for a given bullet length:

      T = (K * D2) / L
    2. 4thParasinok
      4thParasinok 11 July 2016 18: 45
      0
      Quote: tracer
      Here, an opinion was expressed on the feasibility of manufacturing a cartridge on the basis of a sleeve 7.62 / 25 with compression of it to 5.45. Great idea

      but for me, it’s necessary to compress to 6,5. For clarity, check out 6,5 × 39 mm Grendel and 6,8 × 43 mm Remington SPC.
  8. gladcu2
    gladcu2 5 July 2016 16: 23
    0
    By the way.

    PP ammunition with varying degrees of penetration has another market segment.

    These are private security companies. Army of the oligarchs. Yes, variety is possible there.
  9. Lyubopyatov
    Lyubopyatov 5 July 2016 16: 49
    0
    "Expansive cartridge" should be understood as ammunition with an ivy bullet?
    1. berezin1987
      5 July 2016 17: 26
      0
      He is. But in war they are forbidden to use. They are not able to break through bulletproof vest.
  10. cdznjckfd
    cdznjckfd 6 July 2016 11: 24
    0
    The use of PP probably makes sense in the Air Force and in the Navy for the crew of the submarine, get out of the hatch of the tank and leave the side through the TA, as they say two big differences.
  11. Prince of Pensions
    Prince of Pensions 6 July 2016 19: 47
    0
    That's interesting.
  12. brn521
    brn521 7 July 2016 12: 41
    +1
    Quite a normal topic. Take, for example, the pros and cons of the anti-splinter protection found in almost every kit, including the Ratnik. On the one hand, it has gotten stronger in recent years and, as a rule, holds almost all pistol bullets. On the other hand, when the anti-fragmentation protection is penetrated by a full-fledged bullet, the wound is much more severe. Judging by the information from the same Kardena in his magazine, the situation is especially difficult when the bullet does not pass right through, but bounces off the second wall and begins to walk over the meat. As a result, in their special forces, the anti-fragmentation pants from the set are not held in high esteem, and he himself is not going to wear them. At the same time, the armor-piercing cartridge 5,7 penetrates the anti-fragmentation protection at the entire sighting distance, which was required. Therefore, we are not talking about supplementing the existing range of intermediate 5,45 / 5,56 cartridges with a weakened version, but about replacing pistols and pistol cartridges with a more accurate and penetrating analogue.
  13. gross kaput
    gross kaput 8 July 2016 15: 14
    -1
    In the USSR, due attention was not paid to this topic ..... The 5,45x18 mm MPC cartridge cannot be considered suitable for PDW because of its extremely low power and rather low bullet speed (about 130 J and 315 m / s)
    If you don’t know something, it doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen - 1991 at TsKIB SOO they dimed 5,45 MPTs, accelerating a new long and light bullet to 760 m / s, in 2000 TsNIITOCHMASH was already "impressed" by the new Belgian trends. base 5,45X39 cartridge 5,45X30 - none of them got a start in life - guess why?
  14. Hauptam
    Hauptam 10 July 2016 21: 57
    0
    What is bad AKS74U? That's right, everyone is good. They didn’t do better, why an additional line of small arms? This is not economically feasible, but we have one cartridge for everything, let them try to do so.
    1. 4thParasinok
      4thParasinok 11 July 2016 18: 52
      -1
      Quote: Hauptam
      What is bad AKS74U? That's right, everyone is good.

      everyone is bad. further 200 meters begins to spit, to reduce the flame due to the fact that the powder does not burn, there is a huge arrester increasing the size, heavy weight, a bunch of protruding parts, etc.
      P90 with an equipped magazine for 50 rounds and a built-in collimator weighs 3,1 kg, a length of 500 mm in the working position (bulpub) and a free shutter. That is, with the same weight it is easier to manufacture, more compact, has more ammunition, higher accuracy, especially in poor lighting, thanks to a more convenient sight, sufficient armor penetration, etc.
  15. 4thParasinok
    4thParasinok 11 July 2016 18: 02
    -1
    article 2.
    the author simply made a cut from Wikipedia and does not even know what the phrase phrase is
    Feature projectile is the availability heat-strengthened steel core in an aluminum shell.
    incorrect, since the sheath is copper, there is a thin layer of lead between the sheath and the core, but aluminum is in the back of the bullet in order to move the center of gravity forward for the bullet's stability. the same applies to the "Expansive cartridge SS192" There are a lot of similar bloopers
    1. philosopher
      philosopher 25 July 2016 20: 09
      -1
      A cartridge is an assembly of at least 4 components (bullet, cartridge case, capsule and gunpowder). Projectile - bullet; propelling charge - gunpowder. What's wrong?
      The first mention of the design of the 5,7x28 SS 190 cartridge bullet included the presence of a solid copper sheath and core consisting of steel in the front and aluminum in the back. There was no talk of any lead. The author apparently mixed up the shell and core.
      With SS192, everything is absolutely true:
      SS192 hollow-point
      The SS192 was discontinued in late 2004. It used a 1.8 g (28 grain) hollow point bullet with a copper jacket and an aluminum core. The projectile had a length of 21.6 mm (.85 in). It had an unmarked hollow nose with a depth of 7.6 mm (0.3 in) and a 0.8-mm (0.03 in) opening.
      1. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok 26 July 2016 20: 44
        -1
        Quote: philosopher
        There was no talk of any lead. The author apparently mixed up the shell and core.

        1. I said about lead.
        2. The author is completely confused, and not just with the shell. And it looks similar for you, because the core is composite, steel + aluminum, and not just aluminum.
        The author said exactly what he wanted to say, and not a word more. Do not come up with an article for it.
        Quote: philosopher
        The first mention of the design of the 5,7x28 SS 190 cartridge bullet included the presence of a solid copper sheath and a core consisting of steel in the front and aluminum in the back.

        and you saw a section of a bullet SS 190? personally, yes, including in the pictures of the mid-90s, and in the drawings of the cartridge when I first heard about this cartridge ...
        It is necessary not only to read the descriptions of the authors of the articles, but also to use visual materials.
        1. philosopher
          philosopher 1 August 2016 19: 54
          0
          Quote: 4-th Paradise
          1. I said about lead.

          But there is no lead in SS 190!
          Quote: 4-th Paradise
          The author is completely confused, and not just with the shell. And it looks similar for you, because the core is composite, steel + aluminum, and not just aluminum.

          Quote: philosopher
          the presence of a solid copper shell and core, consisting of steel in the front and aluminum in the back.

          What kind of kindergarten? We read carefully before answering.
          Quote: 4-th Paradise
          and you saw a section of a bullet SS 190?

          Seen it. And I remember very well, and since then nothing has fundamentally changed. I still don’t see YOUR mistake.