Military Review

How Ivan the Terrible liquidated the Astrakhan Khanate

176
460 years ago, 2 July 1556, Tsar Ivan the Terrible annexed Astrakhan to the Russian state and liquidated the Astrakhan Khanate. Astrakhan and the whole Khanate were annexed to the Russian state without any peace or other treaty. As a result, even the minimal Astrakhan autonomy was not preserved. The Russian voivode was imprisoned, the Russian administration was introduced. The whole Volga became Russian, the Russian state directly gained access to the Caspian Sea and to the borders of the Caucasus.


The rapid and relatively bloodless (compared to the Kazan Khanate) liquidation of the Astrakhan Khanate led to an acceleration in the pace of the movement of the Russian state to the south and east. Soon the Nogai Horde recognized its dependence on Moscow, whose territory was located between the rivers. Bulak and Yaik (Ural), followed by Bashkiria, located north of the Nogai Horde, in the basins of the White and Ufa Rivers. Thus, the border of Russia in the east began to pass along the river. Ural, and in the south (southeast) - on the river. Terek. Thus, the question was raised, firstly, about the joining of the Trans-Urals, and secondly, about the advancement of the Terek and Kuban, i.e. to the North Caucasus. The accession to Russia of Kazan and Astrakhan eliminated the threat to the Russian state from the east and reduced the danger from the south, where the Crimean Khanate still remained.

Of stories Astrakhan Khanate

The Astrakhan Khanate segregated at the end of 1459 - the beginning of 1460, shortly before the final fall of the Golden Horde, as an independent inheritance of the Khan of the Horde - Makhmud (1460 - 1470-e). After the final collapse of the Golden Horde in 1480 and the killing of its last Khan, Akhmat in 1481, the Astrakhan Khanate turned into an independent state entity. The Astrakhan Khanate gained complete independence at the beginning of the 16th century, after the final defeat of the Great Horde by the Crimean Tatars (1502 year).

Astrakhan Khanate was the smallest fragment of the Golden Horde. The territory of the Khanate in the west stretched to the river. Kuban and the lower reaches of the river. Don, in the east reached the river. Buzan, bordering the Nogai Horde, in the south - to r. Terek, and in the north did not reach a little latitude Perevoloki - the narrowest place between the Volga and the Don. Its population, concentrated mainly in the Volga Delta, was approximately 15-20 thousand people. Therefore, Khan could put no more than 1,5-3 thousand soldiers. As a result, Astrakhan tried not to interfere in major conflicts, and was dependent on stronger neighbors - the Nogai Horde and the Crimean Khanate, to which the Astrakhan khans had to turn for help. The Astrakhan Tatars, as an auxiliary contingent, more than once participated in the campaigns of the Crimean and other Tatar hordes on Russian lands.

The capital of the Khanate was Astrakhan, which gave the country its name. The mound in the Volga delta already existed in the 9th — 10th centuries. in the days of the Khazar Khaganate and repeatedly postponed, all the time coming closer to the Caspian Sea. At the beginning it was the city of Atel, or Itil, 70 km above present-day Astrakhan, on Akhtuba. In the era of the Golden Horde, the city was moved downstream of the Volga to 60 — 65 km and became known as Ashi-Tarkhan, As-tarkhan, Khadzhi-tarkhan, and in the Russian chronicles as Astorokan. Most likely, the city received the name As-Tarkhan from the fact that in these parts aces lived - descendants of Sarmatian tribes who received a diploma from the Batu-Khan (Tarkhan). It was the aces who received the Tarkhan letter and gave the name to the city. Already after the capture of Astorokani by the Russian troops under Ivan the Terrible, the city was transferred even further downstream of the Volga to 12 — 13 km, at the confluence of the Volga River. Kutum, on the "island" of Sain, or Saints Hills (Rabbit Hills).

Favorable location and lack of competition contributed to building trade relations between Astrakhan and Khorezm, Bukhara, Kazan and Moscow. Astrakhan was part of the Great Volga Route. Slaves from the Crimea, Kazan, the Great Horde, the Nogai Horde were brought to the slave market in Astrakhan. Under Ivan III from Moscow, the ships for salt every year went to Astrakhan from Moscow along the rivers Moscow, the Oka and the Volga. The common population was engaged in nomadic cattle breeding.

The Astrakhan Khanate was in military dependence on the Nogai Horde and the Crimean Khanate. The Crimea, which claims to be the heir to the Golden Horde and its lands, tried to subjugate Astrakhan by dynastic means - asserting on the throne of Crimean appointees representatives of the Crimean dynasty Girey. This caused opposition to the Nogai Horde, which is also interested in introducing its henchmen in Astrakhan. In order to maintain relative independence and oppose strong neighbors, Astrakhan began a rapprochement with a “distant” Moscow, which seemed completely safe, and could serve as a counterweight to the Crimea and the Nogai. Therefore, in 1533, the Astrakhan Khanate concluded a trade and political agreement on union and mutual assistance with the Russian state. In Astrakhan was formed at the court of the so-called. "Russian party", actively supported by Moscow and serving as a conductor of Moscow influence.

How Ivan the Terrible liquidated the Astrakhan Khanate


The conquest of Astrakhan

In the middle of the 1540-s, a radical change occurred in the eastern policy of the Russian state. Moscow began to move from defense to offensive, responding to raids and campaigns of the steppe inhabitants with retaliatory strikes and making preventive expeditions to eliminate predatory nests. So, from attempts to build mutually beneficial relations with Kazan, to establish the power of the pro-Russian Khan and the “party”, Moscow switched to a strategy of power submission to the Kazan kingdom, in order to stop the predatory invasions in the east once and for all. During the war 1547-1552's. as a result of several Kazan campaigns, Kazan was taken and made Russian.

Next to the Kazan Khanate, in the lower reaches of the Volga, there was another Tatar state - the Astrakhan Khanate. After the construction of the fortress of Sviyazhsk and the forced consent of the Kazan leadership to accept vassal dependence on Moscow, the Astrakhan Khan Yamgurchi (Yamgurchi, Emgurchi) reigned in 1546-1547, 1550-1554), beat John the Terrible and expressed a desire to serve him. But in 1554, the Astrakhan khan broke a treaty with Moscow, robbed the Russian embassy and attacked the Nogai wanderings, which held the hand of the Russian tsar. Nogai Murza appealed for help to Ivan the Terrible and offered to build on the Astrakhan throne Tsarevich Dervish Ali, who lived in the Russian state in Zvenigorod. He already occupied the Astrakhan table with the help of the Nogais in 1537-1539. In 1552-1554 lived in Russia, owned Zvenigorod. Noghais viewed Dervish-Ali as a loyal person, and therefore did not give up the idea of ​​returning him to Astrakhan.

In Moscow, the conquest of the Astrakhan Khanate was considered from a strategic point of view of control over the entire Volga basin and obtaining direct access to the Caspian Sea. In the spring of 1554, the Boyar Duma decided to take a punitive campaign against Astrakhan Khan Yamgurchi, who violated a peace treaty with Moscow, robbed the Russian embassy and attacked the Nogai regions. "And the king, the great ambassador, Derbysh, was the king to Astorokhan, and with him the governor sent his prince Yury Ivanovich Pronsky-Shemyakin with his comrades, and ordered him to go on three regiments: in the large regiment Prince Yury Ivanovich Pronskaya and Mikhailo Petrovich Golovin, and in the advanced regiment bedtels Ignatey Mikhailovich Vishnyakov and Shiryay Kobyakov, in the guard regiment Stefan Grigoriev is the son of Sidorov and Prince Andrei Bulgak-Boryatinskaya, and with them the nobles of the royal court and the children of the boyars from the rosy cities of choice, but the archers and the Cossacks. Yes, with Prince Yury, Prince Alexander Vyazemsky ordered to be from the vyatcha. And the sovereign ordered Prince Yuryu and his comrades to go on how the ice would break out. ”

In the spring of 1554, the ice on the Volga was barely gone, 30-mc marched on the march on Astrakhan. army under the command of Prince Yuri Ivanovich Shemyakin Pronsky. 29 June 1554, the Russian troops, coming to Perevolok between Don and Volga, sent forward the forward detachment under the command of Prince Alexander of Vyazemsky and Daniil Chulkov, and take the children of the boyars and atamans from the Cossacks, search for the people and look for languages ​​and search for them, ” there is a long-range intelligence. Around the Black Isle, the Vyazemsky and Chulkov advanced regiments encountered the Astrakhan detachment under the command of Sakmak, who was walking up the Volga with a similar goal, “to spend the war on the tsar”. Russian warriors utterly routed the Astrakhan detachment; more than one person could not leave. Sakmak himself and many others took “tongues”.

The captives captured in the battle near Black Island were taken to the commander and in questioning said that “they were sent by the Emgurchay-king to send Moscow's discovery, and the Emgurchay-king builds five miles below the city of Azstorohani, and they said few people but all the people are sitting on the islands. " Having received important information about the location of the enemy, the Front Regiment, reinforced by detachments of Prince David Gundorov, Timofey Kropotkin and Grigory Zhelobov, marched on the Astrakhan Khan, while the rest of the Russian troops rushed to Astrakhan left without protection.

2 July 1554 Russian troops approached Hadji Tarkhan. Russian troops landed above and below the fortress and took her into a tight ring. "And the Azstorokhans from the city ran ... they took the city, and they walked away the people on foot and beat many, and killed others." Also successfully acted troops, which were sent to attack the camp of Astrakhan Khan, who was on the island in one of the arms of the Volga delta. Astrakhan troops did not resist the Russians. Astrakhan Khan escaped, seeing that the Russians were coming at him. Russians overtook and captured the khan's harem, khan's children, stocks weapons, but Yamgurchi was able to slip away. The pursuit was looking for Khan on his way to Tyumen, and he fled to Azov, under the protection of the Ottoman sultan.

The new khan for the third time was Dervish Ali. His authority recognized the nobility and the local population. Dervish-Ali fulfilled the main demand of the Russian Tsar: he freed from captivity all the Russian captives who were in his country. He also pledged to annually pay tribute to Moscow in 40 thousand altyn (1200 silver rubles) and 3 thousand Volga fishes ("sturgeon in sazhen"). The Russians received the right to fish from Kazan to Astrakhan - across the Volga - duty-free and without a turnout (that is, without notifying about it and without asking permission from the Astrakhan authorities). A month later, the Russian troops left Astrakhan, leaving a detachment under the command of commander Peter Turgenev in the city.

In the spring of 1555, Khan Yamgurchi, enlisting the support of the Crimean Khanate and Turkey, tried to regain the throne and attacked Astrakhan twice. In his army there were not only Astrakhan and Nogai warriors, but also Turkish janissaries. In April, 1555, the Russian troops fought off the first assault and turned the enemy to flight. In pursuit of the enemy, the son of Dervish Ali walked, and informed the Moscow about the attack.

After that, there was an unexpected turn. Dervish-Ali was able to lure to his side those who were in the war of the enemy Nogai Murza. In gratitude for their help in the fight against Yamgurchi, Dervish-Ali allowed the Nogai to cross the Volga, where they began fighting against the ally of the Russian tsar, the Nogai bey (prince) Ishmael. To help Ivan Turgenev from Moscow was sent a detachment of Strelets head of Grigori Kaftyrev and Cossack ataman Fyodor Pavlov. However, they met the Astrakhan governor Turgenev on the Volga, on the way to Moscow. He reported that Dervish-Ali had gone over to the side of Russia's long-time enemies - the Crimean Khanate and the Ottoman Empire. Kaftyrev led troops in Astrakhan. The city was abandoned by the inhabitants.

The Russian voivode was able to convey to Dervish-Ali that peace could be restored with Moscow and Astrakhan. Astrakhans returned to the city. But in March 1556, the Nogai prince Ishmael informed Moscow that the dervish-Ali had completely betrayed the Russian tsar: “And he ordered Ismail, the prince and all myts to the tsar, the grand prince, beat his forehead and the citizen to Derbysh, the tsar, that he did not accept the tsar and the grand prince and the great ones need them to do, so that their sovereign from Derbysh would defend and perpetuate his people on Astorohani as well as in Kazan. ” Indeed, incited by the new Nogai allies and the “Prokrim party”, Dervish Ali attacked the Russian detachment of Mansurov in Astrakhan and forced him to retreat from the khanate. Fearing punishment from the Moscow Tsar, Dervish-Ali asked for help from the Crimean khan Devlet-Girya, he sent a small detachment to Astrakhan (700 Tatars and 300 janissaries), who composed the Astrakhan Khan's guard.

In the meantime, a new campaign was organized in Astrakhan. Russian troops led by Ivan Cheremisinov. The Russian army included the Streltsy orders of Ivan Cheremisinov and Timofey Teterin, the Vyatka army of the commander Pisemsky and detachments of the Cossacks Mikhail Kolupayev and the Volga ataman Lyapun Filimonov. In general, only about 3 of thousands of soldiers were sent to the second campaign, which indicates the purely punitive nature of the campaign and the military weakness of the Astrakhan Khanate. The detachments were sent in the spring of 1556. Each of their places of deployment, independently of each other, in order to then unite near Astrakhan: 1) archers went (floated) from Moscow; Vyatka militiamen - from Khlynova (v. Vyatka); Cossacks — on horses from the Don through Perevoloku to the Volga, and then on barges to Astrakhan.

Cossack detachment Filimonova first suddenly approached the city. Khan's warriors did not even have time to shut up in the fortress. The Cossacks defeated the Astrakhan army and broke into Astrakhan. The shooters came to the rescue and Don Cossacks secured success. After several skirmishes, Dervish-Ali fled to Azov, hoping to assemble a new detachment and fight off the city when the Russians withdraw the main forces. The Noghai, who served the Astrakhan Khan, betrayed him, agreed with Prince Izmail, and in order to obey the Russian voivods, attacked Dervish Ali. With the remnants of his troops, the last Astrakhan Khan fled to Azov.

Results

After this victory, the Astrakhan Khanate was liquidated. Moscow no longer entrusted the throne to the "friendly" Khan. The lands in the lower reaches of the Volga became part of the Russian state. The entire Volga route became Russian. Russia came to the Caspian. After the conquest of Astrakhan, the Russian influence spread to the Caucasus. In 1559, the princes Pyatigorsk and Cherkasy asked Ivan the Terrible to send a detachment to defend them against the raids of the Crimean Tatars and priests to maintain their faith. Soon the Nogai Horde and Bashkiria became part of the Russian state.

The title of Astrakhan king with 1557, began to wear Russian kings. Governors were appointed to govern Astrakhan. Residents of Astrakhan swore allegiance to the Russian state, which guaranteed quiet nomadic and profitable trade. Soon envoys from Urgench, Shemakha, Derbent began arriving in Astrakhan to establish friendship, peace and trade. Thus, the task of mastering the Volga route from Kazan to Astrakhan was successfully solved and was a major foreign policy success of the Russian state. Moscow was well aware of the role and importance of Astrakhan as the main transit point in trade with Eastern states.

In the history of Astrakhan, a new stage in history begins. The city has become an important trading and border center of Russia. To keep the city under its power - neither the Crimea nor Turkey left hope to seize the city, the search began for a place to build a fortified fortress capable of restraining the onslaught of the enemy. Such a place was found on the island of Sain (Shaban-Bugre), the Russians called it Hare. The first Astrakhan voivode Cheremisinov asks for permission at the chosen place to begin the construction of the fortress city and sends the king how-to-be drawings. The project was approved and ships and carts with people, food, ammunition, and various goods went from central Russia. The first fortress was wooden and strengthened by earthen ramparts. In 1558, the new voivode Ivan Grigorievich Vyrodkov arrived, famous in the “Kazan case” (the explosion of the walls of the Kazan Kremlin). In Astrakhan, he began to build powerful defensive fortifications that could protect the state’s borders and ensure the safety of residents. Thus, Astrakhan became a strong Russian fortress on the southern frontiers. Subsequent attempts of the Crimean-Turkish troops to take Astrakhan did not lead to success.

In the future, Astrakhan strengthened even more. In 80-ies of the XVI century. built stone Astrakhan Kremlin, built on the site of wooden-earthen structures. It was built "on the model of the Moscow Kremlin." This Kremlin was an example of Russian defense architecture and ranked with the strongest fortresses of medieval Russia.

Gradually, Astrakhan became the largest center of trade with eastern countries. Large trade was conducted by Khiva merchants. Since the XVII century. in Astrakhan appear living courtyards of the Persians, Armenians, Indians, established trading companies. In the same century, the Astrakhan region is intensively settled. For many years after the Astrakhan Khanate was annexed to Russia, Astrakhan was the only major settlement from Kazan to the Caspian Sea. And only in the late 20-ies of the XVII century in the Astrakhan region appeared the first towns-forts. In 1627, a small fortress of Cherny Yar was built, located in 250 versts north of Astrakhan, in 1665-1667. For the protection of Astrakhan and the protection of fisheries from the east, the fortress Krasny Yar is built.
Author:
176 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. ovod84
    ovod84 2 July 2016 06: 45
    +19
    Thanks for the article, interesting material
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. siberalt
      siberalt 2 July 2016 07: 07
      +8
      If the Astrakhan Khanate "was the smallest fragment of the Horde", but its ancestors and culture have survived to this day, then where did the huge Horde itself disappear without a trace, leaving nothing behind but legends and myths ?? belay
      1. viktorrymar
        viktorrymar 2 July 2016 07: 29
        +11
        If the Astrakhan Khanate "was the smallest fragment of the Horde", but its ancestors and culture have survived to this day, then where did the huge Horde itself disappear without a trace, leaving nothing behind but legends and myths ?? belay


        Read about the excavations in saraishyk, near the Caspian Sea near Atyrau, I myself was there, there was a big city with a ceramic water supply. The rate was called Ak Horde
        So no myths
        1. Pavel1
          Pavel1 2 July 2016 08: 51
          +4
          Quote: viktorrymar
          So no myths


          there is also a Barn, which in reality is just a pile of broken bricks, there was a great empire, but there were broken bricks, that's the story.
          1. Temples
            Temples 2 July 2016 10: 59
            +11
            Astrakhan was the only large settlement from Kazan to the Caspian Sea. And only at the end of the 20s of the 1627th century did the first fortress towns appear in the Astrakhan Territory. In 250, the small fortress of Cherny Yar was built, located 1665 versts north of Astrakhan, in 1667-XNUMX. to protect Astrakhan and protect fisheries from the east, the fortress Krasny Yar is being built.


            In the summer of 1586 the fortress of Samara was founded, and in the summer of 1589 - Tsaritsyn (now Volgograd). The city of Saratov was founded on July 2 (12), 1590 by Prince Grigory Zasekin and the boyar Fedor Turov halfway between Samara and Tsaritsyn.

            Note three cities founded in the 16th century.

            This is how the “history” is being crammed by the “historians”.
            It seems like he didn’t lie, but he turned everything inside out.

            1. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 2 July 2016 13: 52
              +3
              Ulan Bator, until recently, consisted of 80% of yurts.
        2. Rivares
          Rivares 2 July 2016 16: 19
          +1
          Quote: viktorrymar
          The rate was called Ak Horde

          So this is just a bet. Question about the horde itself.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. Give the light
        Give the light 2 July 2016 08: 09
        -19%
        No matter where she went, the Horde is now Russia.
        1. Alexey-74
          Alexey-74 2 July 2016 10: 12
          +9
          Do not carry nonsense, dear! If the story for you is a secret behind seven seals, then do not show your ignorance in public ....
          1. The comment was deleted.
      4. Alexey-74
        Alexey-74 2 July 2016 10: 10
        -1
        the horde itself was on the principle of federation and consisted of many lands under its control. Gradually after the fall of the center in Mongolia, all lands began to separate
        1. Temples
          Temples 2 July 2016 11: 09
          +16
          Gradually after the fall of the center in Mongolia


          You sir are themselves delirious.

          And not justified.
          What is the center in Mongolia?
          Maybe you know the place?
          Or washed away by the rains?
          And after the sand fell asleep?

          I lived in Mongolia.

          Tell me how the Mongols (from that Mongolia which is now on the map) got to the Volga coast?
          Have they ever seen horses?
          Noble trotters)))


          How did the Mongols forget their writing, their history, their leaders, all their own?
          There is nothing.

          And do not smoke or thump.
          There are not any natural shocks.
          Wham and it's all gone.
          There is no civilization, not at all.
          Even now.
          The union created industry in the 20th century.
          There is Ulanbator. Capital
          There is Darkhan. The second largest city.
          There is a sukhabator. City on the border with the Russian Federation
          There is Erdenet. (the enterprise was called copper-melibden-system, I think the appearance is clear)
          Several coal mines.

          ALL!!!!!!

          One and a half million inhabitants at the end of the 20th century !!!

          Really outside the compact settlements listed above to meet a person is simply NOT REAL !!!



          Virgin nature!
          Beauties can not be described.
          Fish full of rivulets.
          They don’t eat it.
          No gardens.
          There is no cultivated agriculture.

          With what fright did they go to the Volga ???????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????



          ???????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????



          Do you have a website? I love you


          German historians will tell you about the Mongols and the horde and the Varangians and the backward Russians.
          1. Sergej1972
            Sergej1972 2 July 2016 12: 13
            +1
            Have you heard about Inner Mongolia? Now it is an autonomous region of the PRC. There are several times more Mongols than in independent Mongolia (the former Outer Mongolia). True, the Mongols themselves are now a minority of the population, and the majority are Han. Plus, quite Mongols live in other regions of the PRC.
            1. Temples
              Temples 2 July 2016 14: 45
              +7
              I heard)))
              And about TARTARIA.
              And about MOGOLOV.

              With regard to China, then there is not a damn thing from those who are now called the Mongol-Tatars.

              How do you not love your country.

              Believe any European delirium.

              Or do you think Europeans just now began to lie?
              Has it all started in Ukraine?
              And before they were true to the roots of the hair?
              1. Mahmut
                Mahmut 2 July 2016 17: 02
                -1
                the horde itself was on the principle of federation and consisted of many lands under its control. Gradually after the fall of the center in Mongolia, all lands began to separate

                So in the Soviet school they also sculpted a humpbacked and drove geese about how Ulan Bator, to which no roads were laid, and lacking any significant human resources, was the center of a huge unification of Asian and European states - the Horde.
                1. Pissarro
                  Pissarro 2 July 2016 18: 29
                  0
                  The Soviet school taught that the capital of the Horde was Karokorum, and not Ulan Bator
                  1. Aposlya
                    Aposlya 2 July 2016 21: 14
                    0
                    Quote: Pissarro
                    The Soviet school taught that the capital of the Horde was Karokorum, and not Ulan Bator


                    That's just the Mongol Harahorum, which they pass off as the ancient Karakoram, has nothing to do with it, it was built in the 2000s ...
          2. PENZA
            PENZA 2 July 2016 12: 49
            -5
            Read W. Yang on the Mongol invasion.
          3. dkflbvbh
            dkflbvbh 4 July 2016 15: 34
            -1
            +100/500 ... True, when I was there, the second largest city was Choibalsan ... And so there are still cities ... And the wreckage of Genghis Khan’s headquarters ...
        2. Orionvit
          Orionvit 5 July 2016 22: 46
          0
          So the Mongols only in 1926. learned that they are Mongols. I have seen these Mongols conquerors, I’ll tell you a rather miserable sight. And they want to suck me in, that they captured the floor of the world.
          1. Aposlya
            Aposlya 6 July 2016 09: 13
            0
            Quote: Orionvit
            So the Mongols only in 1926. learned that they are Mongols. I have seen these Mongols conquerors, I’ll tell you a rather miserable sight. And they want to suck me in, that they captured the floor of the world.


            Did they know about Genghis Khan only in 1942? when the delegations of the Mongolian People's Republic in the Kremlin presented the "Secret Legend of the Mongols" in Russian! smile
      5. PKK
        PKK 2 July 2016 14: 04
        -6
        The author is generally dense, maybe Moscow Tartary was meant? But the indicated area had its own Tartary. Obvious confusion is incomprehensible. "Iran"? Was not Persia then? The movement along the rivers is correct.
      6. Oprychnik
        Oprychnik 2 July 2016 18: 17
        +2
        Well, mother said that there were Astrakhan Tatars in our family. They did not disappear anywhere. They are among us.)))
        1. co-creator
          co-creator 3 July 2016 02: 41
          0
          In Astrakhan, the Tatars now have a problem in Haiti.
      7. Max_Bauder
        Max_Bauder 2 July 2016 19: 54
        +4
        Quote: siberalt
        If the Astrakhan Khanate "was the smallest fragment of the Horde", but its ancestors and culture have survived to this day, then where did the huge Horde itself disappear without a trace, leaving nothing behind but legends and myths ??


        Facespalm. And after the Kulikovo battle, who burned Moscow? Santa Claus? is Tamerlane's existence a myth too? And finally, whose blood was Ivan the Terrible on the maternal side? And we are also surprised that the Americans and the Britons do not recognize that the Soviet soldiers defeated Hitler's Germans. Double standarts! smile

        P.S. Buryats, Khakasses, Yakuts, Tatars, Bashkirs, Crimean Tatars, Kazakhs resemble Slavs in appearance? what other evidence is needed smile
        1. co-creator
          co-creator 3 July 2016 02: 40
          0
          Quote: Max_Bauder
          And after the Kulikovo battle, who burned Moscow? Santa Claus?

          Everyone is wondering who burned. The official version of a fairy tale is no more similar.
          Quote: Max_Bauder
          And after the Kulikovo battle, who burned Moscow? Santa Claus?

          What does he have to do with the Horde?
          Quote: Max_Bauder
          And finally, whose blood was Ivan the Terrible on the maternal side?

          There was 5/6 in the Romanovs of German blood. Really, didn’t Russia Rus keep games for hundreds of years?
          1. Aposlya
            Aposlya 3 July 2016 08: 56
            0
            Quotation: blooded man
            Everyone is wondering who burned. The official version of a fairy tale is no more similar.


            Khan Tokhtamysh burned ...

            Quotation: blooded man
            What does he have to do with the Horde?


            So Tokhtamysh was actually the khan of the Golden Horde, although you have sectarians that Dmitry Donskoy, that Tokhtamysh all on one face! laughing
            1. co-creator
              co-creator 3 July 2016 11: 11
              0
              Quote: Aposlya
              Khan Tokhtamysh burned ...

              I know who burned it, it’s not clear where the Rus’s troops who had defeated Mamaia a couple of years ago, and plan versions that are closer to anyone.
              Quote: Aposlya
              So Tokhtamysh was actually the khan of the Golden Horde, although you have sectarians that Dmitry Donskoy, that Tokhtamysh all on one face!

              Stupid tablet. Of course, I wrote about Tamerlane. As he sideways with the Horde, he had his own empire. He bent over the Turks. Maybe one person, or maybe not, no one knows this.
              1. Aposlya
                Aposlya 3 July 2016 16: 30
                -1
                Quotation: blooded man
                I know who burned it, it’s not clear where the Rus’s troops who had defeated Mamaia a couple of years ago, and plan versions that are closer to anyone.


                How is this where? The pancake fled ... Moscow boyars wanted to be postponed from the Horde to Lithuania, therefore they drove Dmitry Donskoy out of Moscow. His overlord came - Tokhtamysh and punished Moscow for this ...
                Quotation: blooded man


                Stupid tablet. Of course, I wrote about Tamerlane. As he sideways with the Horde, he had his own empire. He bent over the Turks. Maybe one person, or maybe not, no one knows this.


                Again Fomenkovsky nonsense! Tamerlan and Tokhtamysh are different faces! Although after Fomenko from Batu, Alexander Nevsky did, and his sectarians observe this sacredly, I am no longer surprised at anything ...
                1. co-creator
                  co-creator 3 July 2016 17: 05
                  +1
                  Another version is no more and very illogical .. Fomenko eats his bread for good reason.

                  Again? Tamerlan has something to do with it. I wrote about Takhtomysh. Tamerlan fought in Asia.
                2. Orionvit
                  Orionvit 5 July 2016 22: 58
                  -3
                  I don’t agree with everyone on issues of unconventional history, but Fomenko and Nosovsky are at least trying to do something, while official historians are really carrying nonsense.
          2. Max_Bauder
            Max_Bauder 3 July 2016 09: 24
            -1
            Quotation: blooded man
            Interestingly everyone burned


            Not everyone, but just not knowing like you, it was Tokhtamysh smile

            Quotation: blooded man
            What does he have to do with the Horde?


            Just like yesterday they were born, Tokhtamysh was the khan of the Horde, he was "put" there by Tamerlane, the same one who captured Bayazid of the Turkish Sultan in the battle of Ankara (the grandfather of that same Suleiman), thereby delaying the fall of Constantinople and Byzantium, the last stronghold of Roman Orthodox culture for another 50 years. What is your assessment of the history of your home country? truant? laughing

            Quotation: blooded man
            Quote: Max_Bauder
            And finally, whose blood was Ivan the Terrible on the maternal side?
            There was 5/6 in the Romanovs of German blood. Really, didn’t Russia Rus keep games for hundreds of years?


            Ivan the Terrible on the maternal side was a descendant of Mamaia, the very one who was defeated in the Battle of Kulikovo. And the Romanovs really were Germans and kept the yoke, therefore they did everything to save the Germans, in short Germans lived at the expense of Russia, on the hump of serfs, how much blood of ordinary Russian soldiers was spilled for the states of Germans, Austria, Prussia. If Alexander the First allowed Napoleon to destroy Prussia when he offered him on the Neman River, and in general was friends with Bonaparte, then there would have been no invasion of 1, there would have been no Germany as a united state, there would have been no WWII 1812, and indeed in general, England also could not be. Napoleon originally wanted to attack the British Isle, was preparing a large army in the Bois de Boulogne, landing. But then Alexander jumps to the Austrians to help, then Austerlitz, Friedland happened. In short, thanks to the Romanovs, they ruined Russia, in the Pugachev uprising with Russian Siberians, all those who lived in the former Siberian Khanate, Tatars, Bashkirs, and some Kazakhs participated. And the Decembrist uprising, and criminal negligence in the Russian-Turkish 1941, in the Russian-Japanese, in the First World War, people were tired of shed blood in vain. If it were not for the advice and revolution of Lenin, you would still be bugging on the Volga, probably not from a princely family smile
            In St. Petersburg, he conducts a free excursion, by the way, this city is also built on the bones of ordinary peasants, a local ethnographer, Pavel Peretz on YouTube. He will tell you and show you where the naughty serfs were flogged and killed, the right of the wedding night and other delights of the "yoke". No other state treated its citizens like this. To slaves, yes, but not to citizens, starting from Ancient Rome. So the Russians were slaves for the German masters, unfortunately. By the way, thank you also to the Georgian Stalin, who shot all the Zionist traitors, they started a revolution for their power, but he quickly turned everything into the power of the people. Conquer the Germans, then in the war, all of us former Horde states and peoples, then the Khan would come along with the descendants of the Russians of the Muscovite Empire, there would be enough for everyone, an example of Auschwitz bully
            1. The comment was deleted.
      8. Manul
        Manul 4 July 2016 00: 17
        0
        Quote: siberalt
        If the Astrakhan Khanate "was the smallest fragment of the Horde", but its ancestors and culture have survived to this day, then where did the huge Horde itself disappear without a trace, leaving nothing behind but legends and myths ??

        And the battle of Kulikovo, already at the suggestion of the liberals, became a myth, like the feat of the Panfilov’s? The horde ended there.
        1. Aposlya
          Aposlya 4 July 2016 15: 01
          0
          Quote: Manul
          And the battle of Kulikovo, already at the suggestion of the liberals, became a myth, like the feat of the Panfilov’s? The horde ended there.


          What a fright then? On the Kulikovo Field, Dmitry did not defeat the Horde, but only the Mekai beclarbek, who was against the Horde ...
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. The comment was deleted.
    5. The comment was deleted.
      1. The comment was deleted.
    6. Alexey-74
      Alexey-74 2 July 2016 10: 08
      0
      Thanks to the author, everything is very open and interesting !!! good
    7. Max_Bauder
      Max_Bauder 2 July 2016 19: 13
      -2
      Now again "these" will pop up - Mongolian non-businessmen, like them there, fomenkoids smile
      1. co-creator
        co-creator 3 July 2016 02: 29
        0
        Quote: Max_Bauder
        Now again "these" will pop up - Mongolian non-businessmen, like them there, fomenkoids smile

        If Kazakh-Fenmen-like people like you have already written, then why shouldn’t you write to those who have logical thinking higher than generic?
        1. Max_Bauder
          Max_Bauder 3 July 2016 09: 49
          +2
          Quotation: blooded man
          If Kazakh-Fenmen-like people like you have already written, then why shouldn’t you write to those who have logical thinking higher than generic?


          Here you really misunderstand simple things. Look, dogs and thoroughbred horses remember who their ancestors are? Remember! Moreover, they write it down in a special book, and God forbid some mongrel or an ordinary yard horse will "climb", that's it! You can kill this dog or horse, because the blood has been "spoiled". And with people it was so, all kings, princes, lords, never spoiled blood with commoners, remembered kinship, called a dynasty. Here I will insert one nuance, people, unlike animals, are much more cunning, so sometimes they mixed and made "bastards", for example, the current Queen of England, not related to Henry 7th by blood, was recently found out by genes. It means that someone "drove to the left" for a long time. And I think there is no need to tell you about the detrimental effect of incest on the health of future children. Here we are Kazakhs and remember who is from what kind, not for arrogance as if the princes, because the khans used to be alone - the descendants of the Chingizids, but in order to exclude family marriages, and I advise you to remember what kind you are, there will be less pathology. In conclusion, an anecdote to the topic.

          Son comes to father:
          - Dad I want to get married!
          - on whom?
          - Tanya from the neighboring village of Babushkino
          - she, son, is forbidden, I was with her mother, sister she is to you
          - then on Natasha from Nikolaevka
          - also not, and she is your sister
          - Well then, from our village on Anyuta, the daughter of Aunt Vali
          - Damn, I went to them somehow to get salt, and there was no husband there, in general, and she is a relative of you.
          The crying son comes to his mother, that:
          - what happened
          - yeah, I want to get married, and my father says that everyone I say, to me the half-sisters
          - don’t listen to his fool, marry whom you want, you are not his son at all
          laughing
          1. Pavel1
            Pavel1 3 July 2016 10: 41
            +1
            Quote: Max_Bauder
            don’t listen to his fool, marry whom you want, you are not his son at all

            that's disgusting...
          2. co-creator
            co-creator 3 July 2016 11: 52
            0
            A joke from the pub, but apparently dear to the Kazakhs.

            Who took the queen's DNA, my dear? Again the yellow press began
          3. co-creator
            co-creator 3 July 2016 12: 21
            0
            Quote: Max_Bauder
            Remember! Moreover, they write it down in a special book, and God forbid, some mongrel or an ordinary yard horse will "climb", everything

            Damn the tablet erases half the text. In short.
            What did the Kazakh give you a kind of knowledge? Maybe you discovered new continents, created reactors, cars, motors? Do you have any world-famous scientists? Maybe you have advanced sports, world science, etc.? No, of course. You didn’t do all this precisely because you live in childbirth. All the nations that refused to do so created and govern modern civilization.
            Your scripture once again confirms that you are an ordinary pastoralist and do not understand simple things. Kings and counts kept their pedigree (very often they simply invented) in order to be different from ordinary people. Why be different? The share of leading them in their circle, if they marry commoners and take them into their circle, then they will have to take the family as well. That means the number of elites will grow and have to share power and money, that is, to take a piece of your beloved from you it led in Europe in those days is well known for the history of the Commonwealth.

            No matter what pathologies you need, you just don’t need to live childbirth. Then you can take a wife from a neighboring village.
            1. Max_Bauder
              Max_Bauder 4 July 2016 16: 55
              +1
              Quotation: blooded man
              What did the Kazakh give you a kind of knowledge? Maybe you discovered new continents, created reactors, cars, motors?

              Firstly, what did the Aryan personally come up with? secondly, you use numbers and you study algebra by Arabs invented by other pastoralists. Yes, and thirdly, what prevents you from knowing your surname and making discoveries? smile I do not see the connection, the words of an amateur, just everyone who made discoveries, even Columbus, even Magellan, everyone knew and emphasized what kind they were, marquises, barons, all had family traditions. It concerns not only Kazakhs, all Europeans, Russians. Prince Bagration, Suvorov. Knowledge is transmitted through genes. Only a narrow-minded person can deny the importance of a surname. What is family honor and so on. Look at the TV shows there. When a person is from a noble family, he will be readily accepted in any society, will be honored, since there is someone to vouch for him. No one will ever take an unknown person from the street, a vagabond to protect the ruler in both ancient times and the president in the present. GDP, too, would not have become the leader of the country, would not have entered the KGB, if he had a "bad history."
              Let's take Sergei Shoigu, do you think he does not know who he is and where he comes from? this does not prevent him from running the second army of the World. Just someone who does not know his last name is dangerous to trust. Maybe he's the son of a spy or a traitor. And knowing the surname will tell everything about the person and his views. Take Ukraine, the one whose grandfather was on the side of the Banderaites is unlikely to be eager to love the Soviet Union and Russia and will pass on this "love" to the generation. smile
              So, that I prove the importance of childbirth, try to enter the FSB, there they will check all your ins and outs, who, where, "was sitting", everything up to the "seventh knee" smile
              Quotation: blooded man
              Your scripture once again confirms that you are an ordinary pastoralist and do not understand simple things. Kings and counts kept their pedigree (very often they simply invented) in order to be different from ordinary people. Why be different? The share of leading them in their circle, if they marry commoners and take them into their circle, then they will have to take the family as well. That means the number of elites will grow and have to share power and money, that is, to take a piece of your beloved from you it led in Europe in those days is well known for the history of the Commonwealth.

              The cattle breeder says that you are now the same commoner, everything that you described about the circle of special people is happening even now, and not in the "history of the Commonwealth", the son of a millionaire will run you over in a car and nothing will happen to him for it. "Pies" have long been divided, but jokes have been circulating for a long time about the position of the general's son. Power, money is the same as before, divided between the clans. Rothschilds, Morgan, Rockefellers. Even in Russia - DATING AND KIND DO THEIR WORK. And you go and don't remember. I'll see how you will make "discoveries" laughing rather the discovery of vodka from longing.

              P.S. I forgot to add - I would not remember the feat of my grandfather, I would not carry a photo in the "immortal regiment". One should know and be proud of one's family.
            2. Max_Bauder
              Max_Bauder 4 July 2016 17: 32
              +1
              Another supplement. Before the revolution, in the Russian army, ALL officers and generals were of an aristocratic family, i.e. remember the family. Turkestan, Central Asia, the Caucasus were conquered by those who knew their family. Ordinary soldiers addressed them as "Your Honor" and "Your Excellency." And nothing, locomotives to build and an entire empire, it did not interfere. A commoner could not become an officer, like Bonaparte, an emperor or a Marshal. Not that principle. Those who offered equality and brotherhood always lost. And the Soviet Union also fell with the solidarity of the working people. Now the oligarchs are also saving up for their great-grandchildren so that they will have enough and all the rest will "go to waste" for them. Even the top manager is someone's "six", but SO VERY GREAT, like the managing negro Samuel Jackson in the movie "Django Unchained", enriches someone else. In the world, you either fulfill someone else's dream, or yours. The clan and dynasties always win, this is collectivism, since the time of Pharaoh Ramses. Do not come out the Jews, the descendants of Abraham, together with Moses, who knows how the matter would have ended.
              Commoners can only multiply like rabbits among themselves, pervert, consume, be gay and degenerate and think that they are the masters of their lives.
              What do I want to say in the end? the Russians also remembered the clans, like the Kazakhs, you simply were divided into aristocrats and serfs, serfs were not allowed to remember, you were almost slaves, and we had democracy in a sense - you could not be captivated and made a slave, because you stood up for protection the whole family, as a trade union for a worker, but there is no one to stand up for a serf. And under current capitalism, we have all become serfs, the whole world. So think globally smile
            3. Orionvit
              Orionvit 5 July 2016 23: 09
              -1
              So the Kazakhs learned that they were Kazakhs only in 1936. Before that, they were aisaki. How everyone wants to lead their own family about Genghis Khan. If it were not for the Russians, the "ancestors" of Chingiz would still herd sheep. Now they are trying to assure us that Kazakhstan is the heir of the Horde.
              1. Aposlya
                Aposlya 6 July 2016 09: 24
                +1
                Quote: Orionvit
                So the Kazakhs learned that they were Kazakhs only in 1936. Before that, they were aisaki. How everyone wants to lead their own family about Genghis Khan. If it were not for the Russians, the "ancestors" of Chingiz would still herd sheep. Now they are trying to convince us that Kazakhstan is the heir of the Horde


                It’s not worth asserting that you don’t know completely ...
                Kazakhs always knew that they were not Kazakhs, but Cossacks! The people’s self-name is KAZAK.
                The Persians called this name the Kazakh tribes in the 10th century.
                In the time of Catherine, the Kazakhs were called Cossacks, you can even look at the maps of that time - the designation of the Kazakh Khanate was the Cossack Horde. It was already later the Russians, in order not to confuse the Kazakhs with the Russian Cossacks, they began to call the Kazakhs Kaisaks, and not Aisaks, as you wrote here! smile
                The modern name KAZAKH appeared only in the 20s of the 20th century - by the decision of the Council of People's Commissars, the word Cossacks was changed to KAZAKH so as not to confuse the documents of the Kazakhs with the Cossacks, who were simply exterminated in those days. But the people, as the Cossack had the self-name, remained.
                As for Genghis Khan, we do not need to prove anything. Genghis Khan was a native of the Kiyat tribe, and this is a Kazakh tribe that Kazakhs, Nogais and Karakalpaks now have.
                As for the "grazing sheep" - if it were not for the Golden Horde, then you would speak German now, you would go to pederast parades, since a united Russia would not exist now ...
                Well, the fact that Kazakhstan was the heir to the Golden Horde - the last capital of the Golden Horde was in the city of Signak, on the territory of modern Kazkhastan, just like Ak Orda (White Horde) was right there ...
                So moderate your ardor without a place! laughing
  2. Lester7777
    Lester7777 2 July 2016 06: 56
    +16
    Kazan took, Astrakhan took, Revel took, Shpak ... did not take.

    Great article, thank you!
  3. Imperialkolorad
    Imperialkolorad 2 July 2016 06: 59
    +23
    Including for this, all sorts of liberals and Russophobes Ivan the Terrible really dislike. They would be quite happy with Russia within the Moscow Ring Road.
  4. Kinsman
    Kinsman 2 July 2016 07: 06
    +4
    Thank you very much for the article, I really like your excursions into history.
  5. surrozh
    surrozh 2 July 2016 07: 14
    +3
    How simple it used to be. With Kiev it doesn’t work like that, one headache.
    1. D. Dan
      D. Dan 3 July 2016 08: 50
      0
      Because parasites poke their sting across the ocean. And although they are not a good person, but strength (((
  6. parusnik
    parusnik 2 July 2016 07: 39
    +10
    Hmm then it was easier .. and no sanctions ... And your opposition did not shout .. We will return the Horde to the Astrakhan Khanate .. smile ..Thank..
    1. Mahmut
      Mahmut 2 July 2016 17: 09
      +1
      We will return the Horde to the Astrakhan Khanate ..

      Rather, Israel Astrakhan Kaganate.
  7. Nicola Bari
    Nicola Bari 2 July 2016 07: 48
    +5
    Interestingly, they tried to agree in a good way, but it did not work out. As a result, Astrakhan is a Russian city. And after that, the thought nevertheless arises that the autonomy of a certain territory under the conditions of Russia, even the most conditional, is worse than a unitary state and may later turn into a problem for the state.

    Thanks to the author for the article.
    1. In100gram
      In100gram 2 July 2016 08: 46
      +8
      Quote: Nicola Bari
      the autonomy of a certain territory under the conditions of Russia, even the most conditional, is worse than a unitary state and can later turn into a problem for the state.

      There must always be a strong central authority. All sorts of different "friendship" ends badly, the temptation to throw is very great. There are many historical examples
      article plus hi
      1. Nicola Bari
        Nicola Bari 2 July 2016 12: 59
        +5
        The desire of individual territories, due to certain conditions that have the ability and desire to secede from the state, can be considered constant, conditional autonomy can only add the ability to add external legitimacy to this, in addition, in conditions of autonomy, its own governance structure is created, which is capable of seizing power on the spot, with sufficient weakening of the center. So the presence of autonomies (even the most "toothless" ones) is usually harmful to the state, as I think.
        1. Orionvit
          Orionvit 5 July 2016 23: 38
          +1
          460 years ago, 2 July 1556, Tsar Ivan the Terrible annexed Astrakhan to the Russian state and liquidated the Astrakhan Khanate. Astrakhan and the whole Khanate were annexed to the Russian state without any peace or other treaty. As a result, even the minimal Astrakhan autonomy was not preserved. The Russian voivode was imprisoned, the Russian administration was introduced. The whole Volga became Russian, the Russian state directly gained access to the Caspian Sea and to the borders of the Caucasus.
          But this I understand, this is the King. Called jump, get. In the past, and now everyone is playing democracy.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  8. moskowit
    moskowit 2 July 2016 08: 20
    +2
    Thanks to the author. Interesting. Short and capacious. Sorry dear Author did not indicate the sources ...
    Have noticed, dear colleagues, that the contender for the kingdom was from the "service Tatars" ...
    "... Prince Dervish-Ali, who lived in the Russian state in Zvenigorod. He already occupied the Astrakhan table with the help of the Nogai in 1537-1539. In 1552-1554 he lived in Russia, owned Zvenigorod ..."

    Moscow tsars have always accepted the representatives of the Tatar nobility for service and offered them considerable preferences for their service. Hundreds of noble clans had representatives of the Horde as their ancestors. True Authorities used to suffer from betrayal, as in this case ...
    1. Give the light
      Give the light 2 July 2016 08: 30
      -7
      And why not assume that the Moscow tsars themselves were from the Tatars?
      1. alllll
        alllll 2 July 2016 08: 45
        +1
        Suppose, only on what grounds?
        1. Give the light
          Give the light 2 July 2016 09: 23
          -4
          On the basis of the "heiress", and let it be better than some kind of truth than a beautifully veiled lie.
          1. Dart
            Dart 2 July 2016 09: 59
            +4
            Fomenko laurels haunt you? stop
            1. Give the light
              Give the light 2 July 2016 10: 05
              -1
              full antipode
      2. PKK
        PKK 2 July 2016 14: 10
        +2
        It is possible, but before the arrival of Roma Novykh, these were the Oldenburg were Germans.
  9. samarin1969
    samarin1969 2 July 2016 08: 23
    +5
    Successful, easy-to-read article. I did not know that the population of the Astrakhan Khanate was so small. It is amazing that such a rich shopping center has maintained independence for so long.
  10. Korsar4
    Korsar4 2 July 2016 09: 10
    +4
    "Sing the fun of the battle, the deeds of the old days,
    And the capture of Kazan, and Astrakhan captivity "

    There will be power inside, and outwardly everything will go well.
  11. moskowit
    moskowit 2 July 2016 09: 18
    +4
    I understood the minus for the fact that the Moscow Grand Dukes and Tsars took to the service of military professionals who themselves, and subsequently their descendants, left a noticeable mark in Russian military history.

    "... Many famous noble families of Russia have Tatar roots. The Apraksins, Arakcheevs, Dashkovs, Derzhavins, Ermolovs, Sheremetevs, Bulgakovs, Gogols, Golitsyns, Milyukovs, Godunovs, Kochubeis, Stroganovs, Bunins, Kurakinsurovs, Saltykovs, Tukovs By the way, the origin of the Sheremetev counts, in addition to the surname, is also confirmed by the family coat of arms, which has a silver crescent. The noblemen Ermolovs, for example, where General Alexei Petrovich Ermolov came from, begin the genealogy like this: "The ancestor of this family Arslan-Murza -Ermola, and by baptism named John, as shown in the presented genealogy, left the Golden Horde to see the Grand Duke Vasily Ivanovich from the Golden Horde in 1506. “Rus was fabulously enriched at the expense of the Tatar people, talents flowed like a river. The princes Kurakin appeared in Russia under Ivan III, this clan comes from Ondrei Kurak, who was the son of the Horde Khan Bulgak, the recognized ancestor of the Great Russian princes Kurakin and Golitsyn, and so the same noble surname Bulgakovs. Chancellor Alexander Gorchakov, descended from the Tatar ambassador of Karach-Murza. The Dashkov nobles are also from the Horde. And the Saburovs, Mansurovs, Tarbeevs, Godunovs (from Murza Chet, who left the Horde in 1330), Glinskys (from Mamai), Kolokoltsevs, Talyzins (from Murza Kuchuk Tagaldyzin) ... A separate conversation is desirable about each genus - a lot, a lot they did for Russia. Every Russian patriot has heard about Admiral Ushakov, but only a few know that he is a Turk. This clan comes from the Horde Khan Redeg. The princes of Cherkassk descend from the khan's clan Inal. "As a sign of citizenship," it is written in their genealogy, "he sent his son Saltman and his daughter Princess Maria to the sovereign, who was then married to Tsar John Vasilyevich, and Saltman was named Michael by baptism and was granted a boyar ..."

    True, the Golitsins are too much. They are Gedeminovichi ...
    1. Dart
      Dart 2 July 2016 10: 03
      -6
      Facts, facts where? And then I also paint the origin of the clans from, for example, Attila of the Huns or from Greek heroes. To draw a surname by the ears in tune is utter nonsense, do not take the example of Fomenko.
      1. moskowit
        moskowit 2 July 2016 13: 42
        0
        You, my dear, have the right to "describe" anything you like. And the facts are in the Velvet Book of Russian noble families. If you are interested, of course, open and read ...
        1. Rivares
          Rivares 2 July 2016 16: 41
          +2
          Quote: moskowit
          And the facts in the Velvet Book of Russian noble families.

          Quote: moskowit
          .Tatar roots have many famous noble families of Russia. Apraksins, Arakcheevs, Dashkovs

          It’s not good to cheat cheekily.
          http://www.runivers.ru/upload/iblock/6d2/barhatnaya1.pdf
          pp. 108-109 Where are the Tatar ancestors written in the Dashkov clan ?? And who do you call the Tatars? Until 20-30 the Bulgars lived on the Volga. Then the Communists renamed them Tatars.
          1. moskowit
            moskowit 2 July 2016 17: 10
            0
            I, my dear, do not name anyone. Just suggest reading. All claims can be directed to authors and publishers ...
            1. Rivares
              Rivares 2 July 2016 18: 47
              +1
              And the claims are not to the authors but to you. The Dashkovs have no Tatar ancestors for this publication, and you say that they are in this book. So show me where. Show me, I will apologize with great pleasure!
              1. Aposlya
                Aposlya 2 July 2016 21: 22
                0
                Quote: Rivares
                And the claims are not to the authors but to you. The Dashkovs have no Tatar ancestors for this publication, and you say that they are in this book. So show me where. Show me, I will apologize with great pleasure!


                Start apologizing! smile
                http://bioga.ru/Dashkovi__dvoryanskiy_Rod_-18814.html

                Dashkovs (noble family)

                The Dashkovs are a Russian noble family descended from the "honest husband" Dashka, who left the Great Horde for Moscow at the beginning of the XNUMXth century, and received the name of Daniel during his baptism. Pyotr Grigorievich and Avksenty Yakovlevich Dashkov, governors, were granted patrimonies for participating in the Moscow siege seat of 1608. Ignatius Denisovich, elected by the noblemen of Aleksin, signed the act of the election of Tsar Mikhail Feodorovich to the throne (1613). Andrei and Vasily Yakovlevich were the Duma nobles under Tsars Theodore, John and Peter. Many Dashkovs were in the 1733th century. solicitors, stewards and governors in secondary voivodships. Stolnik Aleksey Ivanovich (died in 1712) was a resident in Poland (15-1718) and an envoy to Turkey (23-1723), where he concluded a peace treaty (1836). George Dashkov was the Archbishop of Rostov. Dmitry Vasilyevich Dashkov was Minister of Justice, and his brother Andrei was a senator. One of the sons of Dmitry Vasilievich, Dmitry Dmitrievich, is one of the prominent zemstvo leaders of the Ryazan province; He worked especially hard for the cause of public education. About the son of Andrei Vasilyevich, Vasily, see Andrei Yakovlevich (died in 1811) was a messenger in Washington (17 - 1803); his son, Yakov Andreevich (72 - 1849) - was a TPA and an envoy in Sweden, and of his grandchildren Pavel Yakovlevich (born 71) is known as a bibliophile and collector of Russian prints. - The Dashkov clan is included in the VI part of the genealogy books of the Moscow, Nizhny Novgorod and Ryazan provinces (Herbovnik, II, XNUMX). V. R.


                By the way, it indicates that the ancestor of the Dashkovs left the Big Horde, i.e. he was a Nogai ...
                1. co-creator
                  co-creator 3 July 2016 02: 21
                  +1
                  Quote: Aposlya

                  By the way, it indicates that the ancestor of the Dashkovs left the Big Horde, i.e. he was a Nogai ...

                  Where does it say that he is naked? So then in the horde all nationalities lived, and even the Slavs of the Gentiles are a dime a dozen. So where about the one from the Turks?
                  1. Aposlya
                    Aposlya 3 July 2016 09: 03
                    0
                    Quotation: blooded man
                    Where does it say that he is naked? So then in the horde all nationalities lived, and even the Slavs of the Gentiles are a dime a dozen. So where about the one from the Turks?


                    The Golden Horde fell into the Small and Big Horde. All this was caused primarily by the separatism of the Tatars (Turks), who called themselves the Nogays, in honor of the Nogai Khan.
          2. Aposlya
            Aposlya 2 July 2016 21: 20
            0
            So after all, Bulgars are Turks. From time immemorial, all Türks were called Tatars in Russia ...
            1. co-creator
              co-creator 3 July 2016 02: 19
              +2
              Quote: Aposlya
              So after all, Bulgars are Turks. From time immemorial, all Türks were called Tatars in Russia ...

              Why lie. Kazakhs from the Turks, but never called the Tatars. Bashkirs, too. The Bulgars have only language and customs from the Turks. According to their faces, they are ordinary Slavs. I have a whole bunch of these Rusaks in the city.
              1. Aposlya
                Aposlya 3 July 2016 09: 12
                +1
                Quotation: blooded man
                Why lie. Kazakhs from the Turks, but never called the Tatars. Bashkirs, too. The Bulgars have only language and customs from the Turks. According to their faces, they are ordinary Slavs. I have a whole bunch of these Rusaks in the city.


                If you didn’t know something, it doesn’t mean at all that it’s someone’s fabrications!
                What was the name of Azerbaijanis in Russia? Caucasian or Transcaucasian Tatars. Karachaevtsev - Karachai Tatars. Bashkirs also clicked - Bashkir Tatars, Siberian Tatars.
                Kazakhs yes, they were not called Tatars. Under the same Catherine was called by self-designation of the people - Cossacks, and the Kazakh Khanate - Cossack Horde. This is only later, in order not to be confused with the Siberian and Ural Cossacks, they began to call Kaisaks or Kyrgyz Kaisaks.
                As for the Bulgars, you would at least take an interest in their origin first, and not on the face pattern! Although you have Fomenkovtsy with these obvious problems!
                Bulgars stood out in a separate state by simply migrating from the Khazar Khaganate in the 7-8th century A.D.
                1. Pavel1
                  Pavel1 3 July 2016 10: 21
                  +1
                  Quote: Aposlya
                  What was the name of Azerbaijanis in Russia? Caucasian or Transcaucasian Tatars.


                  can prove it, who called so?
                  1. Aposlya
                    Aposlya 3 July 2016 16: 05
                    0
                    Quote: Paul1
                    can prove it, who called so?

                    It's Easy!

                    In Russia, early descriptions of the origin of Azerbaijanis appear in the late XIX - first half of the XX centuries. Thus, the Encyclopedia of Brockhaus and Efron, published in the Russian Empire, wrote that “the Aderbeydjan Tatars are descendants of the Seljuk Turks and the Turkic-Mongols of the Gulag Khan army (XIII century), but to a large extent also of the expelled Iranians”


                    The ESBE writes: “At the beginning of the 1615th century (1616–15), Shah Abbas I, with innumerable hordes, penetrated Georgia twice, devastated it, robbed churches and took a significant part of the inhabitants of Kakheti, instead of which they resettled up to XNUMX thousand courtyards of Aderbeydjan to Georgia Tatars "


                    At the beginning of the 155th century, in the acts and documents of the colonialists, the generally accepted term “Asians” was used. In the future, the name “Muslims” appears behind it [157]. After the South Caucasus became a part of the Russian Empire, the Russian authorities, who traditionally called all the Turkic peoples Tatars, began to call the Azerbaijanis Caucasian, Azerbaijani [158] or Aderbeydzhan Tatars [XNUMX] to distinguish them from other Turkic peoples.

                    The ethnonym "Azerbaijanis" in various forms has been used in academic literature since the end of the XNUMXth century. The encyclopedic dictionary of Brockhaus and Efron in the article “Turkic Tatars” called Azerbaijanis “Azerbaijani Tatars”, noting that a number of scientists (in particular, Yadrintsev, Kharuzin, Chantre) suggested calling the Azerbaijani Tatars “Azerbaijanis”, but this had not yet taken root .


                    Regarding the anthropological type, Pantyukhov writes:
                    Kurds and Adebeydjan Tatars, Shiites, as well as Udins, Tats and Karapapakhs are suitable for the type of Persians ... Aderbeydjan Tatars represent a very mixed type and cranial indicator, as well as their type, in the places where they lived next to the Armenians during their domination, often very close to the Armenian. The main type of Tatars is undoubtedly long-headed, having nothing to do with the Mongol race, to which Zagursky and other ethnographers ranked them
                    1. Pavel1
                      Pavel1 3 July 2016 17: 53
                      0
                      Quote: Aposlya
                      It's Easy!


                      the fact that you brought you here and refutes the TATARS is NOT AZERBAIJANI. This just confirms Fomenko and the old maps that the Tartar-Tartars lived everywhere. For example, such people as Uzbeks are merged together from the actual Uzbeks, Tatars and Sarts. Sarts are white Caucasians who lived on the territory of the Syr Darya channel, speaking Turkic and professing Islam. The Bolsheviks mixed this people with Asians, so they disappeared as a people.
                      1. Aposlya
                        Aposlya 3 July 2016 18: 19
                        0
                        Quote: Paul1
                        the fact that you brought you here and refutes the TATARS is NOT AZERBAIJANI.


                        You will laugh, but all this is taken from the wiki:
                        https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijanis

                        Fomenko does not confirm Nicherta, he only claims that all the inhabitants of Eurasia, as well as the indigenous peoples of Japan and America, are all Russian ... laughing
                      2. Pavel1
                        Pavel1 3 July 2016 18: 42
                        0
                        Quote: Aposlya
                        You will laugh, but all this is taken from the wiki:
                        https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Азербайджанцы


                        and what is this wiki the ultimate truth to you? everyone there is lazy to write there, even idiots.
                        Quote: Aposlya
                        Fomenko does not confirm Nicherta, he only claims that all the inhabitants of Eurasia, as well as the indigenous peoples of Japan and America, are all Russian ..


                        if only Fomenko, but the connection of the Aryans-Russians, for example, with India is confirmed by the Indian sources of Mahabharata, Ramayama. And Sanskrit is generally a Russian dialect.
                        Archeology and anthropology confirm that Timur was a European, and the images that have come down to us say the same thing.
                        Old maps, atlases and encyclopedias say that Tartaria was everywhere in Eurasia, only stupid or engaged people like Nagaybak can say the opposite.
                        The greatness of the Russian nation is evidenced by the vast Russian territories, which were even larger and the great Russian culture with which no other people, or even all together, can be compared in the number of, say, songs, fairy tales, myths. For example, your Kazakh people come up with an "ancient history", but in fact you are stealing history from the Russian people, like all other peoples, because coming up with something of your own is a big problem. That's what F-Ny say about this, for what you and those like you hate them ...
                      3. Aposlya
                        Aposlya 3 July 2016 19: 35
                        0
                        Quote: Paul1
                        and what is this wiki the ultimate truth to you? everyone there is lazy to write there, even idiots.

                        But in that article there’s not a gag, but a quote from sources about Azerbaijanis ... Look at them ...

                        Quote: Paul1
                        if only Fomenko, but the connection of the Aryans-Russians, for example, with India is confirmed by the Indian sources of Mahabharata, Ramayama. And Sanskrit is generally a Russian dialect.


                        Are you a Sanskrit specialist? I think no. You will not understand a person’s speech in Sanskrit even once, so do not repeat this nonsense!
                        Here's an example of transliterated text in Sanskrit: Om shanti shanti shantihiya.
                        Translation into Russian: Lead me from ignorance to knowledge ...
                        No matter how it never looks like the Russian language.
                        Yes, just for experiment, take any song in Sanskrit and listen, for example, here: http://freemuzichka.com/tunes/Na%20Sanskrit
                      4. Pavel1
                        Pavel1 3 July 2016 20: 18
                        +2
                        Quote: Aposlya
                        Are you a Sanskrit specialist? Doo


                        here is Svetlana Zharnikova, doctor of historical sciences, this is her small speech, there are a lot of her videos in nete.
                      5. Aposlya
                        Aposlya 4 July 2016 15: 03
                        -2
                        Quote: Paul1
                        here is Svetlana Zharnikova, doctor of historical sciences, this is her small speech, there are a lot of her videos in nete.


                        Those. You yourself have not tried to listen to Sanskrit texts, or at least translated to read?
                        Well, Fomenko released a bunch of all kinds of videos ...
                        Criticism of Zharnikova:
                        C. V. Zharnikova is a supporter of the non-academic Arctic hypothesis, which is currently not recognized by scientists around the world (with the exception of a small number of them, mainly from India). Confirming this hypothesis, S. V. Zharnikova considers the similarity of Sanskrit with North Russian dialects (although this similarity at the level of harmony of individual words is insignificant, due to the fact that both languages ​​belong to the Indo-European group and generally does not exceed the similarity of Sanskrit to other dialects of the Russian language and to many other Indo-European languages ) In her assumptions, S. V. Zharnikova ignores the achievements of modern historical linguistics, which quite accurately established the origin of the northern dialects of the Russian language from the much more southern Proto-Baltic Slavs.
                        S.V. Zharnikova finds in Sanskrit parallels an explanation of a large number of toponyms on the territory of Russia, even those whose origin has long been established and has nothing to do with Sanskrit. The toponymist A. L. Shilov, criticizing S. V. Zharnikova’s interpretation of the etymology of hydronyms, the origin of which has not yet been established, wrote: “... perhaps the recognition of“ dark ”names as fundamentally indefinable is still better than declaring them Sanskrit, as is done with other hydronyms of the Russian North - Dvina, Sukhon, Kuben, Strig [Kuznetsov 1991; Zharnikova 1996] ”[1].
                        As V. A. Shnirelman notes: “Zharnikova was particularly interested in the image of the swastika and tried to prove that both Indo-Iranians and Slavs inherited this symbol from Tripoli, if not from late Paleolithic ancestors” [2].


                        Everyone goes crazy in his own way ...
                    2. Nagaibak
                      Nagaibak 3 July 2016 22: 30
                      0
                      Apostle "Are you an expert in Sanskrit? I think not. You will never understand a person's speech in Sanskrit, so you should not repeat this nonsense!"
                      Yes, they are specialists in all matters.))) Fomenko, he can finally speak Sanskrit.
            2. YGV-97219
              YGV-97219 3 July 2016 18: 05
              0
              And from which "folios" of these extracts you will not prompt?
              1. Aposlya
                Aposlya 3 July 2016 18: 17
                0
                In each separate citation data of a source are given. All of them are collected in a heap on the same wiki: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijanis
                The sources are also listed there, there are over 200 of them ...
        2. co-creator
          co-creator 3 July 2016 12: 51
          0
          Karachaev Tatars? This is where it is written? So RI fought with them for almost a hundred years, and they were not called by any Tatars. A dime a dozen of documents.
          Bashkirs have always been written down as Bashkirs. Maybe at first they called the Tatars until they figured it out.
          The Russians began to call the Transcaucasian Tatars Tatars, which are what the local population was called.
          There was a Cossack horde, but Kazakhs were never called Cossacks. These are your Kazakh-Fenkovsk inventions.
          It makes no difference where you think the Bulgars broke off. I, unlike you, live next to them. On the other hand, you can never distinguish a Bulgar from a Slav, but a Tatar right away. They still have a self-name between themselves Bulgars (like Suomi Finns), although they call themselves Tatars if in Russian. Tatars in general in anthropology are very different.
          1. Aposlya
            Aposlya 3 July 2016 16: 17
            -2
            Quotation: blooded man
            Karachaev Tatars? This is where it is written? So RI fought with them for almost a hundred years, and they were not called by any Tatars. A dime a dozen of documents.


            You fomenkovtsev just the same with the documents are not okay! Or rather, you don’t even know about their existence! laughing

            Karachay Tatars or Alans live in the northern parts of the Caucasus Alps, where most of them are engaged in cattle breeding. Khan M. On the tribes of the globe. S-Pb., 1864, part 3, p.133


            Mingrelians are called Alans by the Karachai Tatars (Karachais), who live on the northern slope of the Main Caucasian Range, near Elbrus at the headwaters of the Kuban River. Mingrelians usually speak of a representative person known for his strength and courage - well done, like Alan A. Tsagareli - Georgian historian and ethnographer


            Dawns. Silently we set off on a journey, weary and hungry, and we reach the village of Uchkulan only in the evening (August 7, 1865). The Karachais living there take us extremely welcome. These are strong, often beautiful Tatars - immigrants from the Crimea, live in the immediate vicinity of Elbrus and often drive their herds up to snow fields. From their midst came the famous Kilar (Khachirov), who in 1829, during the expedition of General Emanuel with members of the Academy of Sciences Lenz, Kupfer K. Meyer and Menetrie, was the first to ascend the peak of Elbrus.
            G.Rade - Russian scientist-doctor, publicist


            Quotation: blooded man
            There was a Cossack horde, but Kazakhs were never called Cossacks. These are your Kazakh-Fenkovsk inventions.


            Who would have talked about Fomenko's ravings, but not you, his apologist! laughing
            In the 10th century, Kazakh tribes called the Persians the name Cossack, and the very name of the Kazakh Khanate - --азақ хандғы, as if directly speaks of the name of the people!

            Quotation: blooded man
            From the side, Bulgarin can never be distinguished from a Slav, but Tatar immediately.


            You can leave these tales for your sectarians ... Now there are no Bulgars! Now they have long called themselves Tatars, but they were Bulgars back in the days of the Golden Horde ...
            1. co-creator
              co-creator 3 July 2016 16: 44
              -1
              So Alans or Tatars? The Alans are Ossetians, and they are from the Iranian group and have nothing to do with the Türks. Do you even write about any Karachais?

              Again Fomenko
              1. Aposlya
                Aposlya 3 July 2016 17: 39
                0
                Quotation: blooded man
                So Alans or Tatars? The Alans are Ossetians, and they are from the Iranian group and have nothing to do with the Türks. Do you even write about any Karachais?

                Again Fomenko


                Ossetians were never any Alans! They only became them during Stalin’s time with the filing of V. Abaev. Do you have any historical evidence? what Ossetians are Alans? But the fact that Karachais and Balkars is the very Alans is full of facts! And yes, there are only one Karachais — the Turkic people in the Caucasus. Others with such an ethnonym do not exist ... They are also called the people of As.

                Jacob Reyneggs reports: "In the North of the city of Anaklea lives a small tribe called Lazi, where the Kerauntian Mountains separate from the Gordien Mountains, a poor, small people who are called Alans and whom the Tatars call Otey or Edeki-Alans live in the valleys of the main ridge ... This people speaks a special dialect of the Caucasian-Tatar language. "


                Edition "On the Tribes of the Globe", St. Petersburg, 1864: "Karachay Tatars or Alans live in the northern parts of the Caucasian Alps, where they are mostly engaged in cattle breeding."

                Data from the work of I. Kipshidze "Grammar of the Mingrelian (Iverian) language. With a reader and dictionary", published in St. Petersburg, in the Printing House of the Imperial Academy of Sciences, in 1914. On pages 189 - 424 of this work the Mingrelian-Russian dictionary is given, in which on page 193 the following text:
                "Alani: Alans Mingrelians call the Karachai Tatars (Karachai) living on the northern slope of the main Caucasian ridge, near Elbrus, at the source of the Kuban River. Alani Kochi: an Alan man, that is, a strong, brave fellow."


                Article "Svaneti", 1845:
                “It is remarkable that the Svaneti do not call their neighbors the Karachais otherwise than Alans. This is a trail for historians of the ancient people - Alans.

                LZ. The above information was written down by me after a conversation with the son of the Sovereign Prince of Svaneti Mikhail Didishkeliani, raised in the SPb Cadet Corps * and ** now in Tiflis in military service. October 15th day 1845. "


                Kuban Nogais call Karachai "karashai". However, the Nogai folklorist Ashim Sikaliev claims that the Nogai called the Karachais also “Ases” (A.N.-M. Sikaliev. Nogai heroic epic).


                P. Steblinsky: "... Having passed a series of cellars to the end, we went down to the bridge.
                “Here we will ask this mountaineer where Balkaria is,” I said to my friend.
                - Hey Alan (countryman)! I shouted to the mountaineer, who turned his bulls to the left. The highlander stopped.
                - Kaida malkar? I asked ... "
                (Pyotr Steblinsky. Journey to Balkaria // Terek Vedomosti. 1897. May 4. No. 53; May 7. No. 54; May 9. No. 55).
              2. Aposlya
                Aposlya 3 July 2016 17: 39
                0
                Continued:

                N.G. Volkova "Ethnonyms and tribal names of the North Caucasus:
                “The Digors, flat and mountainous, the names Asi (Balkaria) and Asiag, Aesson (Balkars) are well known, and they quite clearly associate them with the Turkic-speaking population living beyond the Stuliafceg pass. The Digorsky name of Karachai is Ustur-Asi, ie“ Big Balkaria "


                At the beginning of the XIX century. the famous Hungarian scientist and traveler E. Zichy: "... Ossetians are called Ases Turks in Balkaria and Karachais in Malka and Kuban." ("Ossetians through the eyes of Russian and foreign travelers", Ordzhonikidze, 1967, p. 283).

                PC. Uslar noted in 1881: "The Ossetians, without assigning to themselves the names Oss or Ases, call their western neighbors living in the Kuban by this name."

                V.A. Kuznetsov reminds: "The Ossetians call their western neighbors, Balkars, Asi, and their country is Assiag."

                IN AND. Abaev in the Historical and Etymological Dictionary of the Ossetian Language cites the following:
                "Asy (Ironian) / Asi, Assi (Digorian)" Balkaria "," Balkars "; Ironian" Asiag ", Digorian" Aesson "-" Balkarian "," Balkarian ". (IESOYA, vol. 1, p. 79)


                Ibn Sa'id al-Maghribi (1214 - 1274?):
                “To the east of it on the sea [stands the city] 'Alaniyya. It is inhabited by people from the Al-Alan people, who are Christianized Turks. Its coordinates are 69 degrees longitude and 46 degrees latitude. Al-Alan is a large nation that lives in that area and behind Bab wa-l-Abwab. Next to them lives the Turkic people, called al-as, similar to them in their customs and faith. To the east of [city] 'Alaniyya, in the bay on the edge of the Sinub Sea lies the city of Khazariyya. By its origin, it is associated with the Khazars, who were exterminated by the Russians. By the name of the Khazars, this sea is also called the Khazars. The coordinates of the city are 71 degrees longitude and 45 degrees 30 minutes latitude. He stands on a river flowing from the north and flowing into the sea. ”
              3. Aposlya
                Aposlya 3 July 2016 17: 45
                0
                And here is the material about the most probable origin of Ossetians, whose language is considered East Iranian, as well as Sogdian. And the people considered to be the descendants of the Sogd - the Yagnob people speak the closest Ossetian language.

                "The chronicle of Tabari also contains interesting details about the ancient topography and appearance of Tbilisi. In that passage, which tells about the capture of Tbilisi by the Türk, under 853, Tabari indicates the presence of five gates in Tbilisi. According to him, the city is divided into two by the river Kura parts: Tbilisi proper and Sogdebil Tabari attributes the construction of Sogdebil to Khosrov Anushirvan664.
                Sogdebil is repeatedly mentioned in the works of Arab authors of the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries. Some of them consider Sogdebil a region, and most consider it a city or part of the city of Tbilisi. There is no point under this name in Georgian sources, but Sagodebeli and Sahiudabili are indicated.
                As a result of a comparison of Arab and Georgian sources, it turns out that the Sogdebil of Arab authors is a fortress on the left bank of the Kura River (later the Metekhi Fortress?), Which from the north protected the approaches to the bridge and was of great military importance665. Sagodebeli was a cemetery located east of this fortress, "because there are graves of the inhabitants of the city" 666, explains Ioane Sabanisdze. Perhaps the name of the fortress arose from the name of a neighboring cemetery. Foreign invaders redid the Georgian word “sagodebeli” in their own way and got the form “sogdebil” 667.
                It is difficult to say whether this fortress was really built by Khosrov Anushirvan or not. In any case, the historical tradition ascribes to Khosrov Anushirvan active activity in the Transcaucasus: the construction of fortresses, the strengthening of borders and the related military operations668. In the IX century. Sogebdil is an active fortress. According to Tabari, it was reinforced by the Tbilisi emir Sahak.
                According to Tabari's description, Tbilisi is a city of wooden buildings. The Armenian historian of the 669th century testifies to this. Thomas Artsruni, according to whom almost all the buildings of the city, as well as the wall and bastions, were made of wood670. It is known that during the transformation of Tbilisi into the capital, its walls were made of stone. The erection of the wooden wall, according to A. Javakhishvili's assumption, should have taken place after the events of the beginning of the XNUMXth century XNUMX "
                http://www.nplg.gov.ge/dlibrary/collect/0001/000040/Ocherki_Istorii_Tom_II.pdf

                Ibn Khordadbekh reports on the city of Sughdabil: “The Khazars owned the provinces of Arran, Jurzan and al-Sisajan [before the Arabs]. The Byzantines owned the provinces of Dabil, Nashava, Siraj, Bagrawand, Hilat, Bajunays. The Persians conquered these lands until Shirvan. Kubad built the cities of al-Baylakan, Barda, Kabalu, and also erected a wall of mud brick. Anushirvan built the cities of al-Shabiran 107, Karkara 108, al-Bab wa-l-Abwab, citadels on mountain roads - the number 360. On the land of Jurzan, he built the city of Sughdabil. "

                Another Arab traveler, Ibn Al-Asir, writes: “Arminia and Azerbaijan partly belonged (before the Arabs) to the Rums, partly to the Khazars. And Kobad built a wall adjacent to one part of that locality. When he died, his son Anushirvan became king, his position was strengthened and made a campaign to Ferghana Burrajan, he, on his return (from the campaign), built the city of Shabaran and the city of Muscat and the city of al-Bab-in-al-abuab, which was Yabuab is named because (?) because it was built on a road uphill. And he settled a people in these cities, which he called the Sajjites. And he built other cities besides these, and for every gate of the passage he built a stone castle. And he built the city of Sogdebil in the country of Jorzan and settled the Sogdians and Persians in it. "
              4. co-creator
                co-creator 4 July 2016 00: 08
                0
                So the Alans are the Iranian group. I honestly do not really understand how Ossetians can be forced to consider themselves Alans. They have the same schiz with childbirth as you do. From all that you brought, I understood one thing. Then the Karachais were called Turks in the western northern Caucasus. For example, a Tatar from the Crimea came and became a Karachai Tatar.
                Well, you don’t have anywhere that the Alans are not Ossetians. The fact that Europeans spoke Tatar with the Alans doesn’t mean anything because Pushkin wrote that the main language in the Caucasus and everyone knows it is Tatar.
              5. Aposlya
                Aposlya 4 July 2016 15: 13
                0
                Quotation: blooded man
                So the Alans are the Iranian group.


                Why on earth did they become an Iranian group if they were always trokas? smile
              6. co-creator
                co-creator 4 July 2016 18: 27
                -1
                Like you buy any school atlas (as it is called) with a map of different races, ethnic groups, and there the Ossetian Alans belong to the Iranian group. Something like this.
              7. Aposlya
                Aposlya 5 July 2016 11: 04
                0
                Quotation: blooded man
                Like you buy any school atlas (as it is called) with a map of different races, ethnic groups, and there the Ossetian Alans belong to the Iranian group. Something like this.


                I have already posted convincing evidence in this thread - the annals that the Alans are Türks and their descendants are modern Karachais and Balkars. But the Ossetians are just the descendants of the Persians, Sogds, Yagnobians strongly mixed in the blood of local Adygs and Georgians ...
                So it’s all garbage, that Ossetians are like Alans.
  12. Orionvit
    Orionvit 5 July 2016 23: 27
    0
    In tsarist Russia was Aisakia. Since the people were backward (but everything was like the descendants of Genghis Khan), they decided to rename it to Kazakhstan. And only in 1936. already under the Soviet regime, they thought and decided. Since the local population has no relation to the Cossacks, rename it to Kazakhstan. That’s the whole story. They became sovereign only after the collapse of the Union, as did Ukraine, but there were no less pontoons. Maybe you know your family, up to the tenth generation, but you have never been a state. The main feature of a great nation is where great poets, writers, philosophers, scientists, mathematicians and so on are listed.
    1. Aposlya
      Aposlya 6 July 2016 09: 25
      -2
      Quote: Orionvit
      In tsarist Russia was Aisakia. Since the people were backward (but everything was like the descendants of Genghis Khan), they decided to rename it to Kazakhstan.


      Dreamer! Fomenko is resting! wassat
  • Duisenbay Bankankulov
    Duisenbay Bankankulov 31 March 2017 10: 07
    0
    Dartys does not have to walk long to search for Turkic roots. Although to take the names of some personalities today. An example of Oleg Taktarov, Karamyrza ....
  • co-creator
    co-creator 3 July 2016 02: 27
    +1
    Muscovy, if in the German family one of the distant ancestors is Russian, does this mean that he is also Russian? It seems to me that you are a very sick person and you do not realize this. Especially for you, I explain. A person in Russia has a nationality about a straight line along his father, and if once his distant ancestor on one of the parental lines was a Tatar, this does not mean that he comes from the Tatars from the word at all. If you argue your way, then all the Turks have roots from the Slavs and Caucasians, etc.
  • Mihail55
    Mihail55 2 July 2016 09: 19
    0
    Thanks to the author for the article! How many peoples have been there ...
  • Super Black
    Super Black 2 July 2016 10: 06
    +4
    460 years ago, 2 July 1556, Tsar Ivan the Terrible annexed Astrakhan to the Russian state and liquidated the Astrakhan Khanate. Astrakhan and the whole Khanate were annexed to the Russian state without any peace or other treaty. As a result, even the minimal Astrakhan autonomy was not preserved. The Russian voivode was imprisoned, the Russian administration was introduced. The whole Volga became Russian, the Russian state directly gained access to the Caspian Sea and to the borders of the Caucasus.

    Here it was in patsanski, clearly, defiantly. Not the fuss that is now with Ukraine.
    1. Alibekulu
      Alibekulu 2 July 2016 18: 39
      0
      Quote: Super Black
      Here it was in patsanski, clearly, defiantly. Not the fuss that is now with Ukraine.
      Nu, as it were, and now in the Kremlin, the boy from St. Petersburg gates .. lol just adult uncles do not give limitless .. recourse Sanctions lecture ..
  • vladimirvn
    vladimirvn 2 July 2016 10: 11
    +1
    In, the bandits lived there. They did racket in life. And the current immigrants from there are worthy descendants. laughing ... They are waiting, they cannot wait for the Silk Road to flow through them. laughing
  • Mengad
    Mengad 2 July 2016 10: 41
    -2
    Horde is a bet. For understanding, look at a piece of the map of Tartaria.
    1. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 2 July 2016 12: 03
      0
      = Mengad] The Horde is at stake. Look at a piece of the map of Tartaria for an understanding. "
      Well, it all started))) Elfotartararians with cards and pictures pulled themselves up.)))
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Rivares
        Rivares 2 July 2016 16: 57
        0
        Quote: Nagaibak
        Well, it all started))) Elfotartararians with cards and pictures pulled themselves up.)))

        In fact, these cards are officially recognized. The Russian Geographical Society for various Nagybakov exhibitions organized ...
        And for the distrustful anthropes in the armory of the Moscow Kremlin is a metal globe from 17 .. year. The only thing he turned to visitors to America, but if you look at the other side, that turned to the wall there is quite a tartaria.
        1. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak 2 July 2016 22: 03
          +1
          Rivares "The only thing he is facing towards the visitors is America, but if you look on the other side, which is facing the wall, there is quite a tartary."
          It’s hard for stupid sectarians to Elves, which is something to explain at all, including about tartaria.)))
  • Atigay
    Atigay 2 July 2016 10: 46
    -3
    "... This Kremlin was an example of Russian defense architecture ..." - was built of bricks from the capital of the Horde Sarai. Thus, two tasks were solved: the fortress was received and the traces of the Horde were erased, for the sake of pseudo-historians.
    1. Rivares
      Rivares 2 July 2016 17: 01
      +2
      Quote: Atygay
      "... This Kremlin was an example of Russian defense architecture ..." - was built of bricks from the capital of the Horde Sarai.

      In how. And where is the capital of the horde was, you know, and nobody can still find)))
      1. Pissarro
        Pissarro 2 July 2016 18: 38
        +1
        The capital of the Golden Horde Barn has long been unearthed, they can not find Karokorum, the capital of Genghis Khan
        1. Rivares
          Rivares 2 July 2016 19: 40
          +2
          Quote: Pissarro
          The capital of the Golden Horde Barn has long been unearthed, they can not find Karokorum, the capital of Genghis Khan

          So am I about the same
          Under Khan Uzbek (reigned 1313–1341), the capital of the Golden Horde was moved to New Saray.
          In 1556, the Old Barn was destroyed by Ivan the Terrible.
          At the time of construction, these bricks were not bricks of the capital of the Horde)))
          1. Aposlya
            Aposlya 2 July 2016 21: 27
            0
            Quote: Rivares
            At the time of construction, these bricks were not bricks of the capital of the Horde)))


            What were they?
        2. Aposlya
          Aposlya 2 July 2016 21: 26
          0
          Quote: Pissarro
          The capital of the Golden Horde Barn has long been unearthed, they can not find Karokorum, the capital of Genghis Khan


          But are they looking for Karakorum at all?
          1. co-creator
            co-creator 3 July 2016 02: 14
            +1
            They are looking for and even found sort of like perfunds.
            1. Aposlya
              Aposlya 3 July 2016 09: 15
              0
              Quotation: blooded man
              They are looking for and even found sort of like perfunds.

              Who is specifically looking for? Are there any reports in the press about these searches? Where exactly are they looking for him?
              1. co-creator
                co-creator 3 July 2016 12: 59
                +1
                Quote: Aposlya
                Quotation: blooded man
                They are looking for and even found sort of like perfunds.

                Who is specifically looking for? Are there any reports in the press about these searches? Where exactly are they looking for him?

                As where? In Mongolia, of course. The official world history of other Mongols does not recognize.
                Long ago, some foundations were announced by the Carocorum. Although apparently they didn’t officially declare it, and this is only a hypothesis. For example, I looked at this about History.
                1. Aposlya
                  Aposlya 3 July 2016 16: 20
                  0
                  Quotation: blooded man
                  so where? In Mongolia, of course. The official world history of other Mongols does not recognize.
                  Long ago, some foundations were announced by the Carocorum. Although apparently they didn’t officially declare it, and this is only a hypothesis. For example, I looked at this about History.


                  This city-museum in Mongolia with the money of the Japanese actually built in the 2000s! This is a remake! smile
                  1. co-creator
                    co-creator 3 July 2016 16: 54
                    +1
                    It is possible. It is clear that there is no Karakoram in Mongolia. It must be sought somewhere in your area. I am not surprised that this is another name for the still existing city.
                    Only official historians and archaeologists cannot search for it from you, they cannot.
                    1. Aposlya
                      Aposlya 3 July 2016 17: 44
                      0
                      Quotation: blooded man
                      It is possible. It is clear that there is no Karakoram in Mongolia. It must be sought somewhere in your area. I am not surprised that this is another name for the still existing city.
                      Only official historians and archaeologists cannot search for it from you, they cannot.


                      Rashid Ad Din wrote that Karakorum is two days away from Taraz, i.e. in Semirechye, as indicated by the presence of 22 rivers and streams ... All the more clear from the name of the city itself - Karakorum. Corums are boulders, large stones on the slopes of the mountains. It is possible that this city is stupidly hidden under mudflow deposits or rubble ...
                      Here in many places you can’t dig where. All archaeologists saliva just choke on Ulytau - the area where so many different ancient graves!
                      1. YGV-97219
                        YGV-97219 3 July 2016 18: 43
                        0
                        Yeah, it’s like people who have evidence that the militia shot down a Boeing but they don’t show them to anyone because they are secret!
                      2. Aposlya
                        Aposlya 3 July 2016 19: 36
                        0
                        What did you mean?
                    2. co-creator
                      co-creator 3 July 2016 23: 48
                      +1
                      The whole thing is that even if they’re allowed to dig and find a city or a grave with a Genghis Khan stone, official historical science does not recognize reality and will consider the Mongolian homeland in Mongolia. This is the case.
                    3. Aposlya
                      Aposlya 4 July 2016 15: 07
                      0
                      Yes, local people believe that the grave of Alash Khan is the very same grave of Genghis Khan, just buried under a different name ...
                      I can tell if it is interesting ...
                    4. co-creator
                      co-creator 4 July 2016 18: 28
                      +1
                      Of course it’s interesting.
                    5. Aposlya
                      Aposlya 5 July 2016 11: 17
                      +1
                      According to legend, Genghis Khan ordered the burial of his first child in his homeland. But the grave of Jochi Khan is located on Ulytau, near the city of Karaganda there is his mausoleum.
                      It is also known that Genghis Khan later ordered to bury him in his homeland ...
                      Here is the mausoleum of Jochi Khan ...

                      Not far from it is the mausoleum of Alash Khan, 18 km away, practically no different from the mausoleum of Juchi Khan, and judging by the construction, it was created by the same architect. About Alash Khan himself there is only a legend that he is the first who united under his arm all the tribes of the Kazakhs and all! Nowhere else is there any information about him. We also know about all Kazakh khans, we have data about them from the Persians, from the Chinese, as well as in Russian written sources. But about Alash Khan nothing but a legend! Those. as if there was no such person. But the mausoleum stands and is considered a sacred place ... But with the formation of the Kazakh Khanate, there was no Alash Khan. Who then hides under this name?
                      Well, if you read the list of tribes of the Genghis Khan ulus, which leads Rashid Ad Din, then it has almost the same Kazakh tribes. Is it not from there that the legend of the khan went, which united all the Kazakh tribes?

                      Here is the mausoleum of Alash Khan. Compare it with the mausoleum of Jochi Khan. The style is the same. Built at the same time ...


                      It is known that Genghis Khan was secretly buried and that's it. But how to make it so secretly that everyone looked for his grave, but could not find it? To bury him under a different name is not a way? "A leaf of a tree is easiest to hide in a forest."
        3. Orionvit
          Orionvit 6 July 2016 12: 53
          -2
          You can put official world history in one place. There is no word of truth in it. All thousands of times rewritten, distorted. and real artifacts are either destroyed or are in special stores.
          1. Pissarro
            Pissarro 6 July 2016 13: 06
            0
            did you personally attend the rewriting, the destruction of artifacts, and visited special stores? laughing
            1. Orionvit
              Orionvit 6 July 2016 15: 06
              -1
              did you personally attend the rewriting, the destruction of artifacts, and visited special stores?
              Pissaro, do you even think with your head? They also came up with a nickname, in general, such a provocative one. If I had one, I would hang myself out of shame. About the history. Here historians constantly argue about what happened ten years ago, although everyone remembers these events. and then they cannot come to a common opinion. How was it? how many historians, so many opinions. And the events were essentially yesterday. But what was a thousand years ago is not questioned, everyone is unanimous here, and that's how it was. There are enthusiasts, though smarter than many academicians from history, who say, "let's figure it out, there are a lot of inconsistencies." They are immediately declared, if not crazy, then at least "charlatans". I've seen enough of what the "official historians" are doing with history in Ukraine, hair on end. So they are not the first, they are not the last. So, I don't need to fill in that there is one holy truth in the official history. You have to think about your head. and not the historical de.r.mo to eat with spoons. The best indicator of history is modernity. Russia has borders from ocean to ocean, this is an indicator. And the self-praised "heirs" of the horde and "descendants" of Chingiz, who wrote their own history after 91, remained as shepherds. And yet, Pissaro, why don't you, for example, by analogy, take a nickname for example Hitler. the meaning is the same.
              1. Pissarro
                Pissarro 6 July 2016 18: 30
                0
                Have you also read the story of Francisco Pissarro somewhere in the special guards? But you deny history as a science and think that everything is a lie, so what is your condemnation of this character based on?

                And history as a science may not be ideal, but it is based on the works of thousands of scientists. You consider yourself smarter than all of them and deny everything, but what do you offer grandmothers instead of grandmothers in the evenings they tell. Moreover, grandmothers are even more logical than similar ones you get the deniers of history. However, your right, some study the history of science, other stories poison
  • co-creator
    co-creator 3 July 2016 02: 17
    +1
    Excavated what? A couple of broken pots☺ Although of course for some this is proof.
  • YGV-97219
    YGV-97219 3 July 2016 18: 37
    -2
    Yes Yes!!! lol
  • Mengad
    Mengad 2 July 2016 10: 56
    +1
    Quote: Alexey-74
    Do not carry nonsense, dear! If the story for you is a secret behind seven seals, then do not show your ignorance in public ....

    And why do you think that he is wrong? winked
  • Mengad
    Mengad 2 July 2016 11: 20
    -2
    Quote: Give the light
    And why not assume that the Moscow tsars themselves were from the Tatars?

    Unfortunately we didn’t. If there were, we would know about Tartaria and the true history of the peoples inhabiting the current territory of the Russian Federation more believable, and not written by the Romanov clan.
    1. moskowit
      moskowit 2 July 2016 17: 23
      +2
      Why weren’t you? Some were with part of the Tatar blood: Ivan the Terrible from Glinsky’s mother, Boris Godunov from the ancestor of Murza Chetu and Tatar of pure blood, Semeon Bekbulatovich
      "... Simeon Bekbulatovich stayed the Grand Duke of All Russia for 11 months. Letters of gratitude written on his behalf are known. In August 1576, Ivan Vasilyevich returned to the throne, and Tsar Simeon was granted by the Grand Duchy of Tver with the title of Grand Duke of Tver, and Ivan the Terrible became king again ... "
      "... Simeon Bekbulatovich (before the baptism of Sain-Bulat khan, Tat. ساین بولاط, Stephen in monasticism; died January 5, 1616, Moscow) - Kasimov khan in 1567-1573, son of Bek-Bulat Sultan, great-grandson of Akhmat Khan, who ruled Together with his father he went into the service of Ivan IV Vasilyevich the Terrible. Participated in the Livonian campaigns of the 1570s. During the years of the oprichnina, Ivan insisted on naming Simeon "the great prince of all Russia" (1575-76), although, in essence, a political Simeon had no weight and remained only a figurehead. Since 1576 - the Grand Duke of Tver ... "


      But what the Great Russian poet A.S. Pushkin said about Godunov:

      "... Yesterday's slave, Tatar, Malyuta's son-in-law,
      The executioner's son-in-law and the executioner himself,
      Will take the crown and barma Monomakh .. "
      1. Rivares
        Rivares 2 July 2016 18: 52
        +1
        Quote: moskowit
        Why weren’t you? Some were with part of the Tatar blood:

        The question is who are these mythical Tatars !? Modern Mongols, Tajiks, Uzbeks, Kazakhs?
        1. Aposlya
          Aposlya 2 July 2016 21: 29
          +1
          Quote: Rivares
          The question is who are these mythical Tatars !? Modern Mongols, Tajiks, Uzbeks, Kazakhs?


          And you read Rashid Ad Dina, there he accurately indicates these tribes by their names. Now Kazakhs, Nogais and Karakalpaks consist of these tribes ...
          1. Nagaibak
            Nagaibak 2 July 2016 22: 23
            -3
            Apostle "you read Rashid Ad Din, where he accurately indicates these tribes by their names. Now these tribes are composed of Kazakhs, Nogays and Karakalpaks ..."
            Who are you advising Rashid Ad Din to read to?))) This is a well-known German falsifier whose Romanovs specifically set out to distort the true Tartarian history.)) But the Kazakhs, Nogais and Karakalpaks are completely Russian, in the sense of the descendants of Alexander Nevsky, who actually Genghis Khan reborn from Spartak.))) Mishulin pancake.)))
            1. co-creator
              co-creator 3 July 2016 02: 50
              +1
              No, this is Genghis Khan from the Kazakhs. They owned the floor of the world, but then came Muscovites, hired Germans and rewrote the history. They took the history from the Kazakhs and all that. The Kazakhs were not offended because they were very shy and in general they were tired of the empire and they decided to live In the steppe. Then the Muscovites came, saw the primitive nomads and decided to overtake them by calling savages. The truth of the Muscovites can be forgiven, how could they know that it was the Kazakhs who spared the beginning of the creation of RI. That's how it really was.
            2. Aposlya
              Aposlya 3 July 2016 09: 16
              0
              Quote: Nagaibak
              Who are you advising Rashid Ad Din to read to?))) This is a well-known German falsifier whose Romanovs specifically set out to distort the true Tartarian history.)) But the Kazakhs, Nogais and Karakalpaks are completely Russian, in the sense of the descendants of Alexander Nevsky, who actually Genghis Khan reborn from Spartak.))) Mishulin pancake.)))


              Ahahahaaa ... A thin slant under a sectarian from Fomenkovtsy ... hi
              1. Nagaibak
                Nagaibak 3 July 2016 10: 43
                0
                Apostle "Ahahahaaa ... Thin zakos under the sectarian from the Fomenko ..."
                Here these guys regularly appear.)) Already probably the fifth generation has changed.)))
                1. Aposlya
                  Aposlya 3 July 2016 16: 24
                  0
                  Quote: Nagaibak
                  Here these guys regularly appear.)) Already probably the fifth generation has changed.)))


                  What to do? When your education is lacking due to all kinds of reforms of the ege-like kind, it’s easier to replace it with such an ersatz, where they will explain to you intelligibly and simply that the whole history of the official is nonsense, but we know the real secret story! hi
                  1. Nagaibak
                    Nagaibak 3 July 2016 18: 35
                    +1
                    Apostle "When your education is not enough because of all kinds of exam-like reforms, it is easier to replace it with this kind of ersatz, where they explain to you in a clear and simple language that the whole official history is nonsense, but we know the real secret history!"
                    I agree. We would like to highlight a separate topic where these biowulfs would cook in their nonsense. That would not be bad. But, for some reason, the site management does not want to do this. As a topic, the Middle Ages so they climb with their insanity.))) But, okay, they would discuss normally, so they begin to bull everything.))) Of course I also do not stay in debt, but with great desire I would discuss with normal people. And not with those who are someone else's project. For me, people who say that our great commanders (such as Suvorov, Kutuzov, etc., served the Germans from the 18th and 19th centuries are hackers. These are real enemies who have a goal, an ideological struggle against Russia and its history.
                    1. Pavel1
                      Pavel1 3 July 2016 18: 46
                      +1
                      Quote: Nagaibak
                      For me, people who say that our great commanders (such as Suvorov, Kutuzov, etc., served the Germans from the 18th-19th centuries, there are ushlopki. These are real enemies of


                      Peter forgot ...
                      1. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 3 July 2016 22: 23
                        0
                        = Pavel1 "forgotten Peter .."
                        Yeah, I forgot.))) But for many, Peter is a controversial and controversial figure. So these guys consider consider German henchmen all of our national heroes. ))) That is, we do not have our own history. Therefore, it is necessary to take on faith the turbidity of the Fomenki and K. and the tartaria sucked from the finger)))
                      2. Pavel1
                        Pavel1 3 July 2016 22: 27
                        0
                        Quote: Nagaibak
                        and tartaria sucked from a finger)))


                        maps and encyclopedias on your sucked out? then what is not sucked? Can the broken bricks of the barn?
                      3. Aposlya
                        Aposlya 4 July 2016 15: 11
                        0
                        Quote: Paul1
                        maps and encyclopedias on your sucked out?


                        On European maps it is only indicated where the Turks lived, of which they were called Tatars ... It is time to calm down already ...
                        Etymology. The first descriptions of Tartaria
                        The names “Tartaria” and “Tartars” come from the ethnonym Tatars, by which in ancient times all Turkic and Mongolian peoples understood, without distinguishing them too much by language or nationality. Europe learned about the "Tatars" during the invasions of the troops of Genghis Khan and his descendants, but until the 4th century, information about them and their states remained extremely scarce and fragmentary. At the same time, among Western Europeans, the term turned into “Tartars” due to contamination with Tartarus. The latter in the Middle Ages meant both the deepest areas of hell and the far unknown regions of the Earth [5] [6]. Researcher S. Gorshenin writes that the sinister images of Tartaria and Tartarus, reflecting fear of the Mongol conquerors, replaced in the minds of Europeans Gog and Magog, who also lived in the north-east of the world [1846]. As it is more picturesque said in the Russian academic edition of 2 [XNUMX]: "In the understanding of Europeans," Tartars "are a people that brings horrors and the end of the world, and the form of this word has become common, hinting at the origin of the enemies of Christianity from pagan Tartarus."
                        For the first time, the term “Tartaria” probably appears in 1173 with the Navarran traveler Benjamin of Tudela, who wrote about the Tibetan province “Tartaria” [K 1], located somewhere in the direction of Turkestan and Tangut, in the north of Mogulistan [7]. The term "tartars" without a specific designation is used in the book "Relatio de David" (1221), which tells about the exploits and victories over the Saracens of the Nestorian king Tartar David, as well as the French chronicler Alberic. These initial references did not yet have a negative connotation; based on eastern sources, they connected the Mongols with the kingdom of presbyter John [7]. The first relatively accurate use of the word “tartars” dates back to 1224, when the Georgian tsarina Rusutana, in a letter to Pope Honorius III, called the Mongols who attacked Georgia the Tartars. To describe the Mongols, the word Tartary was used by a Dominican monk and traveler Julian (1238), who went to the Kipchak steppes in search of Great Hungary. According to S. Gorshenin, the myth of Elder John for a long time retained its influence, and only in 1236–1238 did the perception of “tartars” begin to change in the negative direction, after spreading information about the devastating consequences of the Mongol conquests [8]. The appearance of tartars on the borders of Europe was associated with the advent of the Antichrist: in a situation between 1250 and 1400, against the backdrop of the expectation of the Last Judgment, the Mongols for hundreds of years turned into horsemen of the Apocalypse, soldiers of the Antichrist, both in popular beliefs and among educated Europeans. S. Gorshenin dates the construction of the concept of “Tartaria” between 1238 and 1242. Around 1241–1242, in connection with the Mongol invasion of Europe, the inclusion of Christian hell (Tartar) in the toponym Tatarstan took place; as a result, “Tartaria” emerged as a specific geographical name [9]. A 10th-century orientalist O. Wolf believed that the appearance of “r” in European languages ​​was caused by the influence of Persian dialects in which “r” could be pronounced or not. However, most likely, due to the lack of connections between European chroniclers and Persia, the word "Tartaria" arose without external influence, as a result of a paronymic attraction caused by historical circumstances, during which two phonetically close and semantically different words turned into one [XNUMX]
      2. co-creator
        co-creator 3 July 2016 02: 45
        0
        Quote: Aposlya
        read Rashid Ad Dina

        How frightened did this man become true in the last resort? Because his opinion fits your vision of the world? .
        1. Aposlya
          Aposlya 3 July 2016 09: 20
          0
          Quotation: blooded man
          How frightened did this man become true in the last resort? Because his opinion fits your vision of the world? .


          You do not poke me! You’ll talk like that in your family ...
          This is for you torked Foenkovets of the annals of antiquity are not facts, unlike normal people. You have the frank nonsense of Fomenko that the Japanese, Turks and Indians of America are savage Russians, taken on faith, stupidly only because Fomenko wanted it and there are no facts there! fellow
          1. co-creator
            co-creator 3 July 2016 12: 35
            +1
            This is the Internet, and not the house of noble maidens and appeal to YOU ​​does not bear any negativity.
            And where is @ Fomenko? Your Kazakhs have completely gone and he seems to be everywhere. Reread again and answer to yourself why exactly Dean’s opinion is true for you, and those who think differently do not.
            There are a lot of ancient chronicles and often contradictory information is written there, but basically we just don’t understand what it is about and adjusts it to our vision. There are almost no Russian chronicles in the originals by the way.
            It’s not for me to tell that any historian, compiler of chronicles, etc. always describes his vision of the situation. Well, in those days, many things such as who lives and how through mountains, seas, steppes were written from the words of warriors, merchants. people, especially these professions, love to composed stories, embellish or even lie at all is not subject to discussion. Therefore, your reference to one person is no more fitting to your vision of the world. So who after this of us is Fomenko?
            1. Aposlya
              Aposlya 3 July 2016 16: 26
              0
              Quotation: blooded man
              This is the Internet, and not the house of noble maidens and appeal to YOU ​​does not bear any negativity.


              This is not accepted here!

              Quotation: blooded man
              And where is @ Fomenko? Your Kazakhs have completely gone and he seems to be everywhere.


              No, this is incomprehensible for you, instead of historical knowledge, Fomenkovsky nonsense in every discussion ... wassat
              1. co-creator
                co-creator 3 July 2016 16: 57
                +1
                Apparently all historical knowledge is only with Dean and Kazakhs
                1. Aposlya
                  Aposlya 3 July 2016 17: 44
                  -1
                  Quotation: blooded man
                  Apparently all historical knowledge is only with Dean and Kazakhs


                  ... well, not Fomenko! laughing
                  1. co-creator
                    co-creator 3 July 2016 23: 40
                    0
                    So Fomenko smokes nervously and considers babosy
  • Mengad
    Mengad 2 July 2016 11: 38
    0
    Quote: siberalt
    If the Astrakhan Khanate "was the smallest fragment of the Horde", but its ancestors and culture have survived to this day, then where did the huge Horde itself disappear without a trace, leaving nothing behind but legends and myths ?? belay

    Extracts from the British Encyclopedia of 1771: The territory, understood by Europeans as “Tartaria” at different times included the modern Volga region, the Urals, Siberia, Kazakhstan, Turkestan (including East Turkestan), Mongolia, Manchuria, and partially Tibet.

    [edit] Mention by Nostradamus In Nostradamus, Great Tartary (fr. la grand Tartarie) begins across the Black Sea, is ruled by the king, threatens France and has an alliance with the Alans and Armenians (fr. l'Armenie) (Centuria 5, quatrain 54)

    [edit] Mention by Dionysius Petavius ​​In the geographical description of the world to the World History of Dionysius Petavius ​​(published in 1659) the following is said about Tartary [3]:

    This is a huge Empire (not comparable in size to any country except the overseas possessions of the King of Spain, which it also surpasses, it is united by strong ties, while they are very fragmented), expanding for 5400 miles from east to west, and for 3600 miles from north to south; therefore, her "Great Khan" or "Emperor" has many kingdoms and provinces in its subordination, containing a great many good cities.
    About Russian Tatarstan

    Q. Does the Russian Empire extend further than Europe? A. It extends to Asia, and this part of the Empire is called Russian Tataria V. What does the Russian Tataria contain? A. Four kingdoms in Asia, namely:

    Siberian Kazan Bulgar and Astrakhan ...
  • Mengad
    Mengad 2 July 2016 12: 32
    +3
    Quote: Nagaibak
    = Mengad] The Horde is at stake. Look at a piece of the map of Tartaria for an understanding. "
    Well, it all started))) Elfotartararians with cards and pictures pulled themselves up.)))

    Judging by your answer, you have nothing more to say? Is that all you can only ironize?
    1. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 3 July 2016 22: 25
      +1
      Mengad "Judging by your answer, you have nothing more to say? Is that all you can only be ironic about?"
      You poke your mom. Are you looking talkative?))) Learn to start talking normally. Your muddy pseudo-history only deserves irony. And comics with cards of course.
  • Mengad
    Mengad 2 July 2016 12: 45
    +4
    From the poem "Ruslan and Lyudmila"

    У onions green oak;
    The golden chain on the oak is that:
    Day and night, the scientist cat
    Everything goes around the chain ..
    Many are familiar with the lines of A. Pushkin .. Often they asked themselves the question: what kind of onion? Where is it? And what is it?
    But it turns out ...
    1. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 3 July 2016 10: 46
      -2
      Mengad
      "By the side of the sea, a green oak;
      The golden chain on the oak is that:
      Day and night, the scientist cat
      Everything goes round and round in chains. "

      So there are other verses.))

      There are no more seashores, the trace has caught a cold from the oaks
      Oak is good for parquet, but no -
      Hefty goons came out of the hut,
      We chopped all the oaks into coffins ...
  • Mengad
    Mengad 2 July 2016 14: 11
    +1
    Quote: moskowit
    You, my dear, have the right to "describe" anything you like. And the facts are in the Velvet Book of Russian noble families. If you are interested, of course, open and read ...

    This one, which was written after the Reform of Peter the Great, winked Wikipedia: Peter I Alekseevich, nicknamed the Great (May 30 [June 9] 1672 - January 28 [February 8] 1725) - the last tsar of all Russia (since 1682) and the first All-Russian Emperor (since 1721).
    As a representative of the Romanov dynasty. Rod of the Romanovs and hid the true history of Tartaria.
    1. moskowit
      moskowit 2 July 2016 18: 17
      0
      I tell you "about Thomas", and you tell me "about Erema" ...
  • Lyubopyatov
    Lyubopyatov 2 July 2016 14: 48
    +3
    Thanks to Soviet historiographers, and now to the ministry of Obrnauka and Fed. to the mass communications agency (i.e., the Neo-Trotskyists), the scale of the Personality of Tsar John the Terrible is greatly underestimated and even distorted.
  • Mengad
    Mengad 2 July 2016 15: 08
    +3
    Quote: moskowit
    You, my dear, have the right to "describe" anything you like. And the facts are in the Velvet Book of Russian noble families. If you are interested, of course, open and read ...

    And you Lyubesny, before throwing such applications, at least analyzed a bit. My kind of Old Believers are from Siberia, although they threw us to the Baltic states, by the way, not without the help of Peter with his persecution of the Old Believers (Old Believers). And the fact that this book was kind of the Romanovs and they were in the power of which of the noble families to write in this book and who not. In this book, many noble families of Russian or Russian, as most likely they did not accept Peter's reform and thereby deleted their name from this book.
    And the fact that Peter organized a collection from all over Russia and monasteries ancient annals and destroyed them, like the entire Kazan archive.
    In 1698, Peter issued a decree on the change of national clothing to European. The forced imposition of Western culture took on unprecedented forms in the history of mankind - special military services cut beards and long floors of clothes right on the streets. The people began to actively resist. And so that the people could not resist, Peter issued a decree prohibiting the wearing of pointed knives. In 1700, Peter repeated the decree - all residents of Moscow were ordered to change their clothes to European within two days, and merchants were promised hard labor, a whip and confiscation of property for the sale of Russian clothes.
    And is this a true connoisseur of RUSSIAN CULTURE?
    1. ALEA IACTA EST
      ALEA IACTA EST 2 July 2016 16: 42
      +1
      Quote: Mengad
      In 1698, Peter issued a decree on the change of national clothing to European. The forced imposition of Western culture took on unprecedented forms in the history of mankind - special military services cut beards and long floors of clothes right on the streets. The people began to actively resist. And so that the people could not resist, Peter issued a decree prohibiting the wearing of pointed knives. In 1700, Peter repeated the decree - all residents of Moscow were ordered to change their clothes to European within two days, and merchants were promised hard labor, a whip and confiscation of property for the sale of Russian clothes.

      Do you wear a caftan and do not shave?
      1. Rivares
        Rivares 2 July 2016 18: 56
        +5
        Quote: ALEA IACTA EST
        Do you wear a caftan and do not shave?

        My question is, do you only wear European unisex clothes and go to gay parades?
        1. ALEA IACTA EST
          ALEA IACTA EST 2 July 2016 19: 11
          -2
          Peter dressed everyone in unisex and came up with geyparady?
          1. Rivares
            Rivares 2 July 2016 20: 08
            +3
            Quote: ALEA IACTA EST
            Peter dressed everyone in unisex and came up with geyparady?

            Logical thinking is not easy for you. If I came to you and made you dress as I like, and cut my hair as I like, and for your money, but would you put your opinion in your ... knife? Judging by you, you would be happy!
      2. co-creator
        co-creator 3 July 2016 02: 55
        +4
        Quote: ALEA IACTA EST
        Do you wear a caftan and do not shave?

        Do you wear a wig and pantolons as in Peter the Great? Many people around the world wear beards in Europe too. Maybe a person should decide what to wear and when to shave, and not the King?
    2. moskowit
      moskowit 2 July 2016 17: 47
      0
      And where is your family of Old Believers and "service Tatars"? By the way, they served both the Polish crown and the Great Lithuanian princes. By the way, their considerable merit in the defeat of the crusaders in the Battle of Grunwald ...
    3. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 3 July 2016 10: 50
      -1
      Mengad "And the fact that Peter organized the collection of ancient chronicles from all over Russia and monasteries and destroyed them, like the entire Kazan archive."
      Every once more fun. We’ll get to the protoucre.))) Did you just burn everything up?))) That sho?)))
      They also burned the Tobolsk archive?))) I did not know.)))
  • Mengad
    Mengad 2 July 2016 16: 15
    0
    Quote: moskowit
    I understood the minus for the fact that the Moscow Grand Dukes and Tsars took to the service of military professionals who themselves, and subsequently their descendants, left a noticeable mark in Russian military history.

    "... Many famous noble families of Russia have Tatar roots. The Apraksins, Arakcheevs, Dashkovs, Derzhavins, Ermolovs, Sheremetevs, Bulgakovs, Gogols, Golitsyns, Milyukovs, Godunovs, Kochubeis, Stroganovs, Bunins, Kurakinsurovs, Saltykovs, Tukovs By the way, the origin of the Sheremetev counts, in addition to the surname, is also confirmed by the family coat of arms, which has a silver crescent. The noblemen Ermolovs, for example, where General Alexei Petrovich Ermolov came from, begin the genealogy like this: "The ancestor of this family Arslan-Murza -Ermola, and by baptism named John, as shown in the presented genealogy, left the Golden Horde to see the Grand Duke Vasily Ivanovich from the Golden Horde in 1506. “Rus was fabulously enriched at the expense of the Tatar people, talents flowed like a river. The princes Kurakin appeared in Russia under Ivan III, this clan comes from Ondrei Kurak, who was the son of the Horde Khan Bulgak, the recognized ancestor of the Great Russian princes Kurakin and Golitsyn, and so the same noble surname Bulgakovs. Chancellor Alexander Gorchakov, descended from the Tatar ambassador of Karach-Murza. The Dashkov nobles are also from the Horde. And the Saburovs, Mansurovs, Tarbeevs, Godunovs (from Murza Chet, who left the Horde in 1330), Glinskys (from Mamai), Kolokoltsevs, Talyzins (from Murza Kuchuk Tagaldyzin) ... A separate conversation is desirable about each genus - a lot, a lot they did for Russia. Every Russian patriot has heard about Admiral Ushakov, but only a few know that he is a Turk. This clan comes from the Horde Khan Redeg. The princes of Cherkassk descend from the khan's clan Inal. "As a sign of citizenship," it is written in their genealogy, "he sent his son Saltman and his daughter Princess Maria to the sovereign, who was then married to Tsar John Vasilyevich, and Saltman was named Michael by baptism and was granted a boyar ..."

    True, the Golitsins are too much. They are Gedeminovichi ...

    Where did you get this bullshit from? dyke source wise guy.
    PS although I already know how this crap comes from here? http://www.politforums.net/historypages/1280066581.html
    1. Rivares
      Rivares 2 July 2016 17: 17
      +1
      Quote: Mengad
      Where did you get this bullshit from? dyke source wise guy


      probably from here.
      http://apfomin.livejournal.com/5520.html
      in the velvet book indicated by him this is not.
      I think he adheres to the theory that the Volga Bulgars are Türks, on the grounds that they were instilled with Islam))
      With the same success, it can be argued that the Russians are Jews on the grounds that the Old Testament is included in Christianity))
  • Mengad
    Mengad 2 July 2016 17: 16
    +1
    Quote: moskowit
    Thanks to the author. Interesting. Short and capacious. Sorry dear Author did not indicate the sources ...
    Have noticed, dear colleagues, that the contender for the kingdom was from the "service Tatars" ...
    "... Prince Dervish-Ali, who lived in the Russian state in Zvenigorod. He already occupied the Astrakhan table with the help of the Nogai in 1537-1539. In 1552-1554 he lived in Russia, owned Zvenigorod ..."

    Moscow tsars have always accepted the representatives of the Tatar nobility for service and offered them considerable preferences for their service. Hundreds of noble clans had representatives of the Horde as their ancestors. True Authorities used to suffer from betrayal, as in this case ...

    Yeah, and what didn’t write further that this prince Dervish-Ali set by Ivan then did not betray him?
    Vicki: In 1547, the city was captured by the Crimean Khan Sahib I Girey. Khan Dervish-Ali was forced to flee to his ally Ivan the Terrible. In 1554, Ivan the Terrible almost without a fight captured the city and seated his tributary Dervish-Ali on the throne. As a result of the betrayal of Dervish-Ali in 1556, a small detachment of Russian Cossacks was sent to the city. The khan fled with the army, and Hadji Tarkhan was finally subordinated to the Russian kingdom. In the same year, it was decided to build a new Russian Astrakhan. The new place chosen by the governor Ivan Cheremisinov - Zayachiy hill - was on the left bank of the Volga.
  • Mengad
    Mengad 2 July 2016 17: 20
    -1
    Quote: Rivares
    Quote: Mengad
    Where did you get this bullshit from? dyke source wise guy


    probably from here.
    http://apfomin.livejournal.com/5520.html
    in the velvet book indicated by him this is not.
    I think he adheres to the theory that the Volga Bulgars are Türks, on the grounds that they were instilled with Islam))
    With the same success, it can be argued that the Russians are Jews on the grounds that the Old Testament is included in Christianity))

    I also noticed how, from post to post, he praises them with torn quotes from some suspicious sources. smile
  • Mengad
    Mengad 2 July 2016 17: 36
    +2
    Quote: moskowit
    Why weren’t you? Some were with part of the Tatar blood: Ivan the Terrible from Glinsky’s mother, Boris Godunov from the ancestor of Murza Chetu and Tatar of pure blood, Semeon Bekbulatovich
    "... Simeon Bekbulatovich stayed the Grand Duke of All Russia for 11 months. Letters of gratitude written on his behalf are known. In August 1576, Ivan Vasilyevich returned to the throne, and Tsar Simeon was granted by the Grand Duchy of Tver with the title of Grand Duke of Tver, and Ivan the Terrible became king again ... "
    "... Simeon Bekbulatovich (before the baptism of Sain-Bulat khan, Tat. ساین بولاط, Stephen in monasticism; died January 5, 1616, Moscow) - Kasimov khan in 1567-1573, son of Bek-Bulat Sultan, great-grandson of Akhmat Khan, who ruled Together with his father he went into the service of Ivan IV Vasilyevich the Terrible. Participated in the Livonian campaigns of the 1570s. During the years of the oprichnina, Ivan insisted on naming Simeon "the great prince of all Russia" (1575-76), although, in essence, a political Simeon had no weight and remained only a figurehead. Since 1576 - the Grand Duke of Tver ... "


    But what the Great Russian poet A.S. Pushkin said about Godunov:

    "... Yesterday's slave, Tatar, Malyuta's son-in-law,
    The executioner's son-in-law and the executioner himself,
    Will take the crown and barma Monomakh .. "

    So who would have opposed! Of course there were and are noble families from the Turkic tribes, but this does not mean that all the noble families in Russia came from the Turks, many have the roots of Prussians, Poles, etc.
    PS And enough for me to put the cons. If you are not able to prove it reasonably, you can only quote left quotes from left sites so be a man and admit it. And learn how to write yourself and not copy-paste.
    1. moskowit
      moskowit 2 July 2016 18: 24
      0
      I was not the first to start. We just talk about different things. In setting cons, your priority. And so, I do not practice such a practice. (Minuses, pluses, I don't care about it) Quotations are documentary evidence. And in the future, I ask you to contact "you".
    2. ver_
      ver_ 2 July 2016 18: 37
      +2
      Tatarstan - was founded in 1920 by a decree of the Central Executive Committee by V.I. Ulyanov-Lenin .. Until that date, this territory was called the Bulgarian Kingdom .. In those years, the Tatar was called an equestrian warrior or leader of an equestrian squad ..
  • Mengad
    Mengad 2 July 2016 17: 55
    0
    Quote: Give the light
    No matter where she went, the Horde is now Russia.

    There is logic in your words.
  • Mengad
    Mengad 2 July 2016 18: 02
    0
    Quote: moskowit
    I, my dear, do not name anyone. Just suggest reading. All claims can be directed to authors and publishers ...

    But didn’t you try to check or analyze, the information that you bring here? Or you don’t even read and understand what you are copying and distributing? Check the information and give the sources where the information comes from.
  • ver_
    ver_ 2 July 2016 18: 26
    0
    Quote: Give the light
    No matter where she went, the Horde is now Russia.

    ... do not confuse territories and troops .. Each ruler of Tartaria (Belaya, Pegoy, Malaya, Moscow ...) had his own horde army to protect his territory ..
    The Golden Horde is the union of all territorial hordes .. under the rule of Khan = Tsar = Emperor .. This was the clan of the Rurikovich. For this purpose, the princes of the Radoblied Rus Khan Aeneas John Rurik Varyag the Trojan called on Russia to rule after the fall of Troy (the capital of the Empire).
    1. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 3 July 2016 10: 55
      0
      ver _ "... do not confuse territories and troops .. Each ruler of Tartary (White, Piegoy, Small, Moscow ...) had his own army-horde to defend his territory ..
      The Golden Horde is the unification of all territorial hordes .. under the rule of Khan = Tsar = Emperor .. This was the Rurik clan. For this purpose, the princes of the fragmented Rus Khan Aeneas Ioann Rurik Varyag the Trojan called to Russia after the fall of Troy (the capital of the Empire). "
      The guys are good at smoking.))) I understand your plan is good and yet.)))
      Especially good piebald horde.)))
  • ver_
    ver_ 2 July 2016 18: 41
    +1
    Quote: Alexey-74
    the horde itself was on the principle of federation and consisted of many lands under its control. Gradually after the fall of the center in Mongolia, all lands began to separate

    Mongolia was founded in 1920 - looking for help to you .. Until this date, the Mongols did not exist at all .. Forget about the Mongols ..
  • Mengad
    Mengad 2 July 2016 18: 54
    0
    Quote: moskowit
    I was not the first to start. We just talk about different things. In setting cons, your priority. And so, I do not practice such a practice. (Minuses, pluses, I don't care about it) Quotations are documentary evidence. And in the future, I ask you to contact "you".

    Documentary evidence? Do you think that scribbling and fiction without reference is true?
    1. moskowit
      moskowit 2 July 2016 19: 00
      +1
      Dovijennya Pan! Unfortunately, our polemic has come to a standstill. You show aggressive rudeness. I'm not interested in talking to you. It’s a pity that I lost time with you ... If you wish, you can blame it. I have no complaints.
  • Mengad
    Mengad 2 July 2016 19: 05
    0
    Quote: Rivares
    Quote: moskowit
    Why weren’t you? Some were with part of the Tatar blood:

    The question is who are these mythical Tatars !? Modern Mongols, Tajiks, Uzbeks, Kazakhs?

    These are the Turkic peoples who live in the central regions of the European part of Russia, in the Volga region, the Urals, Siberia, Kazakhstan, Central Asia, the XUAR and the Far East. They now lead a sedentary lifestyle, and previously led a nomadic lifestyle.
    1. Aposlya
      Aposlya 2 July 2016 21: 34
      -2
      Quote: Mengad
      Modern Mongols, Tajiks, Uzbeks


      These peoples do not belong to the Turks ...
    2. co-creator
      co-creator 3 July 2016 03: 00
      +1
      Quote: Mengad
      Quote: Rivares
      Quote: moskowit
      Why weren’t you? Some were with part of the Tatar blood:

      The question is who are these mythical Tatars !? Modern Mongols, Tajiks, Uzbeks, Kazakhs?

      These are the Turkic peoples who live in the central regions of the European part of Russia, in the Volga region, the Urals, Siberia, Kazakhstan, Central Asia, the XUAR and the Far East. They now lead a sedentary lifestyle, and previously led a nomadic lifestyle.

      On what basis is this statement?
  • fa2998
    fa2998 2 July 2016 19: 27
    +5
    Quote: Temples
    How did the Mongols forget their writing, their history, their leaders, all their own?

    Modern Mongols were extremely surprised when they saw the Hollywood Chikhgis Khan. "Is it really that their homeland had a great civilization, a great army, a great state. laughing And all the values ​​and the best architects and artisans throughout Asia were brought to Mongolia. lol Where did all this go? what The area is not seismic, the tsunami is not enough, and the tallest buildings are the councils built five-story buildings. Well now the Mongols have realized their greatness, and will seek evidence. laughing hi
  • Mengad
    Mengad 3 July 2016 09: 55
    +3
    Quote: Aposlya
    Quotation: blooded man
    How frightened did this man become true in the last resort? Because his opinion fits your vision of the world? .


    You do not poke me! You’ll talk like that in your family ...
    This is for you torked Foenkovets of the annals of antiquity are not facts, unlike normal people. You have the frank nonsense of Fomenko that the Japanese, Turks and Indians of America are savage Russians, taken on faith, stupidly only because Fomenko wanted it and there are no facts there! fellow

    It is known that MV Lomonosov wrote the history of Russia and that he had constant disputes with German academics. After the death of Lomonosov, his archives disappeared without a trace. However, his works on the history of Russia were published, but edited by Miller. Meanwhile, it was Miller who harassed MV Lomonosov during his lifetime! The works of Lomonosov on the history of Russia published by Miller are falsification. As a result, we do not know our history. The Germans of the House of Romanov drove into our heads that the Russian peasant was good for nothing. That "he does not know how to work, that he is a drunkard and an eternal slave. That's how we live.
    1. Orionvit
      Orionvit 7 July 2016 00: 06
      -1
      As a result, we do not know our story. The Germans of the House of Romanov drove into our heads that the Russian peasant was good for nothing. That "he does not know how to work, that he is a drunkard and an eternal slave. That's how we live.
      The fact that we don’t know our history is for sure, but if the Romanovs drove something there, then keep it to yourself. The Russian peasant never drank, this is a myth, and the worker is better than the Russian peasant, you still have to look. Look at the map of Russia, and tell at least to yourself, could drunkards and lazy people create such a state? And we do not live well, because constantly, "our Western partners", arrange on the territory of Russia, if not revolutions with total robbery, then wars (including two world wars) with total destruction. To live at least a hundred years peacefully, like Switzerland, for example, then I would look where it is better, in Europe or in Russia.
  • Mengad
    Mengad 3 July 2016 10: 11
    0
    Quote: Max_Bauder
    Quotation: blooded man
    If Kazakh-Fenmen-like people like you have already written, then why shouldn’t you write to those who have logical thinking higher than generic?


    Here you really misunderstand simple things. Look, dogs and thoroughbred horses remember who their ancestors are? Remember! Moreover, they write it down in a special book, and God forbid some mongrel or an ordinary yard horse will "climb", that's it! You can kill this dog or horse, because the blood has been "spoiled". And with people it was so, all kings, princes, lords, never spoiled blood with commoners, remembered kinship, called a dynasty. Here I will insert one nuance, people, unlike animals, are much more cunning, so sometimes they mixed and made "bastards", for example, the current Queen of England, not related to Henry 7th by blood, was recently found out by genes. It means that someone "drove to the left" for a long time. And I think there is no need to tell you about the detrimental effect of incest on the health of future children. Here we are Kazakhs and remember who is from what kind, not for arrogance as if the princes, because the khans used to be alone - the descendants of the Chingizids, but in order to exclude family marriages, and I advise you to remember what kind you are, there will be less pathology. In conclusion, an anecdote to the topic.

    Son comes to father:
    - Dad I want to get married!
    - on whom?
    - Tanya from the neighboring village of Babushkino
    - she, son, is forbidden, I was with her mother, sister she is to you
    - then on Natasha from Nikolaevka
    - also not, and she is your sister
    - Well then, from our village on Anyuta, the daughter of Aunt Vali
    - Damn, I went to them somehow to get salt, and there was no husband there, in general, and she is a relative of you.
    The crying son comes to his mother, that:
    - what happened
    - yeah, I want to get married, and my father says that everyone I say, to me the half-sisters
    - don’t listen to his fool, marry whom you want, you are not his son at all
    laughing

    This is so to the point: On July 1, Tajikistan introduced changes in legislation prohibiting the conclusion of marriages between close relatives. On Friday, July 1, reports Interfax.
    https://lenta.ru/news/2016/07/01/stopmarry/
  • Orionvit
    Orionvit 5 July 2016 22: 54
    0
    Quote: Max_Bauder
    Quote: siberalt
    If the Astrakhan Khanate "was the smallest fragment of the Horde", but its ancestors and culture have survived to this day, then where did the huge Horde itself disappear without a trace, leaving nothing behind but legends and myths ??


    Facespalm. And after the Kulikovo battle, who burned Moscow? Santa Claus? is Tamerlane's existence a myth too? And finally, whose blood was Ivan the Terrible on the maternal side? And we are also surprised that the Americans and the Britons do not recognize that the Soviet soldiers defeated Hitler's Germans. Double standarts! smile

    P.S. Buryats, Khakasses, Yakuts, Tatars, Bashkirs, Crimean Tatars, Kazakhs resemble Slavs in appearance? what other evidence is needed smile

    So the Chinese have not gone far, so what?
  • Orionvit
    Orionvit 7 July 2016 17: 50
    -1
    Quote: fa2998
    Quote: Temples
    How did the Mongols forget their writing, their history, their leaders, all their own?

    Modern Mongols were extremely surprised when they saw the Hollywood Chikhgis Khan. "Is it really that their homeland had a great civilization, a great army, a great state. laughing And all the values ​​and the best architects and artisans throughout Asia were brought to Mongolia. lol Where did all this go? what The area is not seismic, the tsunami is not enough, and the tallest buildings are the councils built five-story buildings. Well now the Mongols have realized their greatness, and will seek evidence. laughing hi

    But modern Kazakhs were jubilant when they watched "Mongol" filmed with Nazarbayev's money. How, Genghis Khan was a Kazakh. And in general, "brothers" Kazakhs always, as now, if the conversation on the forum takes place on a controversial topic, then the abundance of minuses simply dazzles in the eyes. What's this? Complex?
  • Orionvit
    Orionvit 7 July 2016 18: 00
    -1
    Quote: Pissarro
    Have you also read the story of Francisco Pissarro somewhere in the special guards? But you deny history as a science and think that everything is a lie, so what is your condemnation of this character based on?

    And history as a science may not be ideal, but it is based on the works of thousands of scientists. You consider yourself smarter than all of them and deny everything, but what do you offer grandmothers instead of grandmothers in the evenings they tell. Moreover, grandmothers are even more logical than similar ones you get the deniers of history. However, your right, some study the history of science, other stories poison
    The current official historical science is a corrupt, unforgiving .tu.ka in the service of the authorities. These are blown academicians in their posts, academic history has long turned into a corrupt girl.