Military Review

Rivals Shpagin submachine gun. Part one

147
By the beginning of World War II, submachine guns had time to prove their effectiveness and necessity on the battlefield, but the path of this weapons in the armament system of the Red Army was rather thorny and complicated. The need for such weapons has already proved the First World War. She clearly demonstrated to the military that in the clashes of huge masses of troops, the density of fire is more important than the accuracy of shooting. The armies of the howling countries needed rapid-fire and compact models of small arms with a large wearable stock of cartridges that would be sufficiently effective both in offensive operations and in defense, in battles in the city and in limited spaces. So in one weapon united machine gun and automatic (self-loading) pistol. By the end of the First World War in the armies of a number of howling countries, the first submachine guns even managed to be adopted.


Russia was no exception, there were also works in the field of creating compact automatic weapons. In 1916, the country adopted the machine gun from designer Vladimir Fedorov, chambered for the caliber 6,5 mm, and soon it was renamed as an automatic rifle. This machine was released in a small series, up to 1925, approximately 3200 units were manufactured. Already in 1928, they were removed from service and sent to warehouses, from where they were returned during the war with Finland, when it became clear that the units lacked modern automatic weapons.

But the Fedorov machine gun was precisely the machine gun created for a rifle cartridge. But the submachine guns in the Red Army at first did not find recognition at all from the Red commanders. In the 1930 year, they noted that the machine guns were considered unfit for the fighting in Germany and the United States, they were used only by police and security units. However, the head of the Red Army’s weapons, Jerome Uborevich, nevertheless insisted on holding a contest and making the first batch of submachine guns. As a result, in 1932-1933, 14 of various types of submachine guns passed the stage of state tests in the USSR. And on January 23, the 1935 of the year, the Degtyarev submachine gun of the model 1934 of the year (RPM) was adopted by the order of the people's commissar of defense. At the same time it was produced almost by the piece, its improvement did not help either.

PPD with different store options


However, the Red Army Artillery Directorate still insisted on the widespread introduction of a submachine gun in the army. In 1939, it was said that it would be expedient to introduce a submachine gun into the armament of certain categories of soldiers of the Red Army, in particular, they talked about the border guards of the NKVD, gun and machine-gun crews, airborne troops, drivers of various vehicles, etc. But in February, 1939, PPD was removed from the armament of the army, it was withdrawn from the troops and surrendered to warehouses. Persecution of submachine guns to some extent contributed to the repression against the supporters of these weapons - Uborevich, Tukhachevsky and others. In parallel with this, the construction of a self-loading (automatic) rifle (carbine) for arming the personnel of the Red Army went on in the USSR. In 1936, an automatic rifle of the Simonov design, the ABC-36, was adopted by the army, and two years later the Tokarev self-loading rifle (SVT-38) replaced it. After the Soviet-Finnish war, a modernized version of the SVT-40 weapon appeared. With this weapon they wanted to arm the entire Red Army, with the SVT the Soviet command pinned very high hopes.

The successful use of Suomi submachine guns by the Finnish forces during the Soviet-Finnish war of 1939-1940 forced the Red Army command to return the traffic rules to the armament of the units, but the need for this weapon not only to arm certain categories of Red Army soldiers - gun crews, armored vehicles, drivers, but for ordinary Soviet infantry, it was still in doubt. At the end of 1939 of the year PPD, but already in the version of PPD-40, was again put into service, its production was resumed. At the request of Stalin, who very much liked the round shop of PP “Suomi”, a drum shop with an 40 cartridge was also developed for PPD-71. In total, the 1940 year, the Soviet industry managed to release 81 118 new PPD-40.

In this case, this submachine gun is not completely satisfied the military. Already in 1940, the Arms Commissariat issued to the Soviet gunsmiths a technical assignment to develop a submachine gun, which, according to its tactical and technical characteristics, was close to or exceeded PPD-34 / 40, but it would be much more technological and better adapted to mass production, including non-specialized engineering enterprises. The new submachine gun was supposed to be made with minimal machining, which practically meant the need to use stamped parts in it.

SVT-40

By the autumn of 1940, the designs of new submachine guns by G.S. Shpagin and B.G. Shpitalny were presented to the military for consideration. Technological evaluation and field testing of two models at the end of November 1940 of the year demonstrated that with close combat qualities of both projects, the Shpagin submachine gun (later the famous PCA) was much more technological in production. 87 machine-hours were required to manufacture the 5,6 parts needed for it, while Spnit's machine gun needed 95 machine-hours to produce 25,3 parts, i.e., almost 5 times more.

Started 22 on June 1941, the war proved the correctness of those who believed in the prospects of submachine guns in the infantry. The reality of the first year of the war turned out to be significantly gloomier than all the prewar forecasts and had a sobering effect on the leadership of the Red Army. In the very first year of the war, the army lost practically all of its trained and cadre composition: the dead, the missing, the prisoners and the wounded, along with them, were lost a huge amount of weapons, including SVT rifles, which were armed with a sufficient number of first-echelon units in the western military districts. The presence of a large number of self-loading rifles among Soviet infantry was a surprise even to the Nazis themselves.

To compensate for the losses incurred and the formation of new divisions of the Red Army, more weapons were needed. At the same time, it is desirable automatic, especially against the background of the fact that the legends about the "mouths of German machine gunners" began to walk at the front from the first days of the war. Later they moved to many post-war films. In fact, by the beginning of World War II, there were about 250 thousands of MP-40 submachine guns in the German army, and their infantry units were low in intensity. Such weapons were armed by the commanders of platoons, departments, they were widely distributed among the crews of German armored vehicles and airborne personnel, where they were armed to one-third of the entire composition, the rest were treated with ordinary rifles.

MP 40


In these conditions, the PPSH was useful, the production of which in the 1941 year was hastily deployed not even at the “core” enterprises. Serial production of this submachine gun, which became a real symbol of World War II, began only in September 1941 year. Up to this point, there was a process of preparing the necessary documentation, tooling and development of technical processes, the search for suitable production capacity. Under rather difficult conditions, until the end of 1941, 98 644 submachine guns were assembled, of which 40 had to be used for PPD-5868. In 1942, machine guns were already produced in the USSR already 16 times more - 1 499 269 pieces (for comparison: in all the years of World War II, about a million MP-38 / 40 submachine guns were produced in Germany). This was facilitated by the fact that the production of PPSh could be relatively easy to set up in any mechanical enterprise with suitable stamping equipment. If by January 1 1942 in the army there were 55 147 submachine guns of all systems, then by January 1 1944 there were already 1 427 085 pieces. This allowed in each rifle company to create a platoon of machine gunners, in each battalion - a company. There were also separate battalions, the soldiers of which were entirely armed with the PPSh.

At the same time, the production of these submachine guns was not without “bottlenecks”, one of the most complex and expensive parts in the production of the Shpagin submachine gun was a drum shop. The process of filling it required some effort from the shooter. At first it was necessary to remove the drum cover, after which it was turned on the 2 turn with a special key. After filling the snail with cartridges, the drum mechanism was again removed from the stopper and closed with a lid. Understanding this, already in 1942, Shpagin created a box-shaped store for 35 cartridges for his brainchild. Using such a store greatly simplified the process of loading, and the submachine gun became lighter and less cumbersome. Soldiers at the front usually gave preference to box shops.

PPSH-41


The war became a serious test for Soviet submachine guns. Taking into account her experience in the country, work began on the development of new types of these weapons. Already at the beginning of 1942 of the year (from February 25 to March 5), prototypes of PP were tested at the NIPSVO test site, which were created taking into account the last fights, all 9 samples were tested, one of which was captured MP-40.

Test participants:
1. Shpagin lite.
2. Degtyarev modernized №2 and №3.
3. Academy 1-th sample design Bezruchko-Vysotsky.
4. The 2 academy of the Menshchikov and Shkvornikov type designs.
5. Zaitsev (OKB-16) 1-th sample.
6. Zaitsev (OKB-16) 2-th sample.
7. North-Western Front №32 / 14.
8. Mass submachine gun PPSH-41.
9. German submachine gun MP-40.

Separately, you can note the German submachine gun MP-40, with which the domestic designers were able to finally meet after the start of World War II. In Soviet historiography, it was customary to say that this weapon was head and shoulders below Soviet constructions, but documents from the time of war allow us to make another conclusion, the German design impressed Soviet designers. The test report stated that in virtually all the samples some design features of the MP-40 were taken into account: all samples had a trigger mechanism without firing, in addition, the 1 and 2 submachine guns of the 2 sample, Degtyarev and Zaytsev 40 sample guns there were folding butts. Moreover, the second sample of the Academy was basically repeating the German submachine gun with simplifying the design of individual weapon assemblies in order to reduce the weight of the entire system and simplify the technological process. A noticeable influence of the German MP-XNUMX was in the second experienced Zaitsev submachine gun. This was not the first time that Soviet gunsmith designers looked closely at the development of their opponents.

The initial stage of the test was to determine the accuracy of fire: the fire was fired on shields at a distance of 100 and 200 meters with a single fire and at a distance of 50 and 100 meters - automatic. CH50 and R100 in the table is the radius of the circle in which the 50% of the best shots of the series of shots fit and the radius of the circle in which the 100% of the series of hits fit, respectively.

Rivals Shpagin submachine gun. Part one


The result of the first stage of testing was the logical conclusion that the total weight of the system had the greatest impact on the accuracy of shooting from a submachine gun. The influence of the dynamic shoulder was also noted - the submachine gun Degtyarev, distinguished by the highest value of this characteristic, didn’t shine with accuracy. In this case, for some reason, the testers did not consider it necessary to note the high accuracy of the German MR, but "praised" it indirectly, giving a positive assessment of its simplified Soviet copy to the 2 model of the Academy. The testers noted that the blows in the rear position of the bolt of this submachine gun are weaker than those of other specimens examined, as a result of which the weapon shakes less and shooting is more convenient. It should be noted that the firing rate of the MP-40, like its Soviet twin, was approximately 2 times lower than that of the other participants in the tests.

The next stage of testing was to determine the performance characteristics of the submitted samples - ease of loading, assembly / disassembly, aiming and firing. Here, comments received almost all samples of submachine guns. For example, the model Degtyarev got for all the same short butt, because of which, with accurate shooting, it was possible to hit the back plate on the bow of the shooter.

Above - the first sample of the PP of the Academy (designer Bezruchko-Vysotsky) Below - PP Degtyareva modernized, photo: warspot.ru


But most important was the other test. With the sad experience of the Tokarev self-loading rifle, which the army eventually went through with a wave of complaints about its unreliability, the testers approached the issue of assessing the survivability and reliability of the samples presented. In defense of CBT, it can be said that its efficiency depended very strongly on the technical literacy of the fighters and the proper care of the weapon. After most of the fighters who knew how to competently exploit this weapon left the Red Army and problems began with its reliability and sensitivity to pollution. Taking into account the accumulated experience, the new submachine guns were tested in the following conditions:

1) with grease;
2) when dusting with cement dust for 10 minutes in a special box;
3) when washed with kerosene and rubbed dry parts;
4) at declination and elevation angles of the order of 90 degrees;
5) after the 12-hour weapon stays on the snow (at a temperature of approximately -10 degrees).

From the new Shpagin submachine gun, 2329 shots were fired and 3,3% of delays were received. Their greatest number was obtained after the dusting of the weapon - 15%, after the presence of the submachine gun in the snow - 8% and at declination angles - 5,7%. After the 1008 shots (or 2808 with the previous shots from the sample), cracks began to appear on the back of the receiver cover, and the fiber damper cracked. After 2329 shots (or 4129 in all), a barrel swing was detected. To continue the tests of the Shpagin submachine gun under such conditions, the commission considered it an inexpedient idea. On the one hand, 3% delays are few. But behind these dry statistics figures - three out of a hundred patrons, that is, a chance to “catch” the delay exists in almost every horn or disk. And in a fight, a soldier can only have one such episode.

Incomplete disassembly of the Artakademii PP, photo: warspot.ru


From the submachine gun Degtyarev modernized during the tests, a 2374 shot was fired and 0,5% of delays were received. The largest number of them was observed after the weapon was in the snow - 4%. At elevation angles close to 90 degrees and with a thick lubricant, the submachine gun completely refused to shoot, giving continuous non-movement of the cartridges. In addition, during the tests, the axis was shaky, and the shaking of the folding butt was also noted, as a result, the PPM was sent for revision following the model proposed by Shpagin.

Best of all showed the first sample of the Academy, from which the 2233 shot was made and the total 0,6% of delays received. However, after firing on the weapon, cracks were found at the rear walls of the receiver, near the stem stud and near the figured safety cutout. But the main outsider of the tests was the submachine gun of the North-Western Front - 387 shots and 15,2% of delays, plus the base of the front sight with a namushnik.

In general, the final conclusions of the commission were not joyful for the majority of designers and their offspring. According to experts, in terms of ease of handling and firing from different positions, no single sample fully meets modern requirements, but the 1 sample of the Academy and the modernized Degtyarev submachine gun showed themselves better than others against them. By the failure-free operation of the automation, it was able to withstand only the 1 sample of the Academy (Bezruchko-Vysotsky). In terms of survivability, none of the samples submitted for testing could not stand them. As a result, the commission recommended that the above two machine guns be completed and 5 be submitted for re-testing no later than 1942 on April, while it was decided to consider the refinement of other products impractical. It was during the trials that started on April 5 that Sudayev’s submachine gun (PPS) appeared, which was able to compete with the PPSh.

Information sources:
http://warspot.ru/3300-neizvestnye-soperniki-ppsh
http://nvo.ng.ru/history/2010-02-26/12_guns.html
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  1. bunta
    bunta 1 July 2016 06: 37
    +6
    50 fix on R50
  2. fider
    fider 1 July 2016 06: 46
    +1
    And this is Finnish Suomi. Find ten differences from the PDP.
    http://www.opoccuu.com/suomi-m31.htm
    1. inkass_98
      inkass_98 1 July 2016 07: 43
      +38
      You will be ridiculous, but the development of the PPD and "Suomi" went almost in parallel, since the mid-20s. And their legs still grow from Bergman and Schmeisser. Moreover, the Suomi design is close to the German models. The casing and barrel of the Suomi were replaceable (why? It was unlikely in the battle there was time to change the barrel).
      And the differences are the design of the bolt, a different cartridge (the PPD has a much more powerful Mauser, albeit a Soviet spill, and Suomi initially went under 7,65x17, then under the Parabellum).
      Well, and the store: initially the PPD had a sector, box store. Disk appeared just under the influence of Suomi in PPD-40.
      The adoption of the PPD was delayed precisely because of the inertia of the thinking of Soviet military leaders.
      1. fider
        fider 1 July 2016 15: 04
        +1
        inkass_98
        "along with the 25-cartridge sector magazine, a drum magazine for 73 rounds was introduced, very similar in design to that of the Finnish" Suomi "design by Koskinen. It is reported that I. A. Komaritsky, E. V. Chernko, V. I. Shelkov and V. A. Degtyarev designed a drum magazine in almost a week.

        He, however, had one important difference from the Finnish prototype. The Soviet PP had a full-fledged long wooden box, inside which there was a magazine receiving neck - unlike the Suomi, in which the short stock only reached the magazine, which made it possible to insert its drum directly into the bolt box connector, without a long neck. As a result, an original magazine had to be developed for the PPD, in which the lower part was made as a drum, and in the upper part there was a process, in the manner of a short box magazine, to be able to adjoin the neck designed for a box magazine. "
        Etc. etc.
    2. lysyj bob
      lysyj bob 1 July 2016 10: 48
      +22
      Quote: fider
      And this is Finnish Suomi. Find ten differences from the PDP.


      You better compare Galil with AK ...
    3. AK64
      AK64 1 July 2016 11: 38
      +8
      And this is Finnish Suomi. Find ten differences from the PDP.


      They have a common pototype, MR-18 and MR-28 Schmeiser
    4. code54
      code54 1 July 2016 15: 33
      +12
      Well yes! And the T-34 was lapped with the VK 3002 !!!! )))))))) lol After all, they look like the main thing! ))))
      1. sibiryouk
        sibiryouk 2 July 2016 18: 11
        +1
        In the photo T-34 is not a mass production, but with a 57-mm gun ZIS-2!
    5. sibiryouk
      sibiryouk 2 July 2016 18: 08
      +2
      The first difference is the 9x19 Luger cartridge. The second difference is the location of the shutter handle. The difference is the third - a large barrel length and the presence of the original muzzle brake. And yet, the shape and size of the butt, the bed, the location of the store, another disassembly sequence, etc.
  3. moskowit
    moskowit 1 July 2016 06: 50
    +18
    This is all, of course, interesting. But the main reason for not accepting the submachine gun for arming into rifle units was not indicated. He EXCLUDED firing combat at distances over 200-from meters. Therefore, the course was taken on self-loading and automatic rifles. There were more than a million of them by the beginning of the war in the Red Army ...
    1. Leto
      Leto 1 July 2016 07: 07
      +9
      Quote: moskowit
      But the main reason for not accepting the submachine gun for service is not indicated.

      Few people think about this. More and more they rely on the density of fire, and the fact that there is no sense from it at distances of more than 200m. do not notice. Of course, in battles in settlements where, thanks to buildings, the distance between the opposing sides is reduced, the PP is useful, but in an open field it is deadly to attack the enemy with the PP.
      1. AK64
        AK64 1 July 2016 11: 41
        +4
        but the fact that there is no sense from him at distances of more than 200m. do not notice.


        Cut sturgeon - and 100 meters a lot.
      2. svp67
        svp67 1 July 2016 11: 44
        +6
        Quote: Leto
        PP is useful

        Everyone somehow forgets that the first PPs, during WWI, appeared as "trench cleaners", this is their main purpose and where they were in their place, but no one in the world planned to replace all small arms with them.
        And of course the wars of the 30s in Latin America greatly revived interest in this type of weapon, but there were reasons for this, the main of them:
        - short combat distances
        - the use of small infantry groups.
        1. bunta
          bunta 1 July 2016 12: 29
          +2
          Quote: svp67
          PP, during WWI appeared as "trench cleaners"

          Typical misconception. The first PP Vilar Peroza and MP-18 were quite mobile light machine guns for protecting from trenches, not clearing them. This is also associated with the side mounting of the store. The "trench sweeper", like the "trench broom", refers to Thompson, who appeared later after the war ended. Thompson was really meant to be a melee weapon.
          1. marshes
            marshes 1 July 2016 12: 35
            +1
            Quote: bunta
            "Trench Cleaner"

            If memory fails, it was a pump-action shotgun with a bayonet-knife.
            It seems they tried to ban it by some kind of convention.
            1. psiho117
              psiho117 1 July 2016 13: 28
              +7
              Quote: marshes
              it was a pump-action shotgun with a bayonet-knife.
              It seems they tried to ban it by some kind of convention.


              Yeah, the Germans wassat The guys, poisoning hundreds of thousands of gases, tried to ban the pump as ... inhumane!
              1. marshes
                marshes 1 July 2016 13: 45
                +2
                Quote: psiho117
                Yeah, the Germans. The guys, poisoning hundreds of thousands of gases, tried to ban the pump as ... inhumane!

                Did I come up with something, it seems that there was a transmission on the Star, or the channel disappeared, that they told and compared about weapons.
                Pompovik, an izh-security guard, received two bullets in a bronik, class 1, fired only two shots at the attackers, killed the first one immediately, shotguns nearly fell to the floor, shot the second right shoulder, left, but then died.
                And 9x19 can it? With two shots.
                1. Operator
                  Operator 1 July 2016 14: 51
                  +7
                  The 12-caliber pump-action rifles of various models for cleaning trenches with high efficiency were used by the assault groups of the American army after the United States entered the WWII in April 1917.

                  Shotguns were loaded with buckshot, each shot in terms of its striking ability was equal to a whole line of 9-mm MP-18 submachine gun designed by Hugo Schmeisser, which entered service of the German assault groups a year later.

                  At a distance of 25 meters or less (the characteristic battle distance in the trenches) the gun surpassed the submachine gun, but starting from 50 meters or more was inferior to it due to the loss of dead power of the buckshot.

                  The Germans tried to introduce a ban on the use of smoothbore guns for military purposes in the text of international conventions after the end of the WWII.
                  1. Svidetel 45
                    Svidetel 45 2 July 2016 00: 38
                    +2
                    At a distance of 50 meters, the energy of one 9 mm pebble exceeds 15 kgf / m, with at least 3-4 stopping effect it will be more than sufficient, another thing is that the probability of getting 3-4 pebbles at such a distance is already small, it would be more correct to say - not because of the loss of lethal force, but because of the large dispersion of the buckshot at a distance of over 50 meters.
                    1. Operator
                      Operator 2 July 2016 10: 46
                      +1
                      To clean the German trenches, the Americans used compact pompoms with a shortened barrel and a handle instead of a stock - the initial buckshot speed and, accordingly, their effective firing range were reduced.
          2. AK64
            AK64 1 July 2016 12: 43
            +1
            Typical misconception. The first PP Vilar Peroza and MP-18 were quite mobile light machine guns for protecting from trenches, not clearing them. This is also associated with the side mounting of the store. The "trench sweeper", like the "trench broom", refers to Thompson, who appeared later after the war ended. Thompson was really meant to be a melee weapon.


            You have brought two different things together.

            Vilar Peroza is really not a PP but an "ultra-light machine gun" (and initially an aviation one). And here is MP-18 named "trench broom", a weapon of assault groups.
            But it is clear that attack aircraft not only fight in trenches, and therefore the store is on the side.
            1. bunta
              bunta 1 July 2016 13: 33
              +1
              How do you imagine an attack aircraft with 2000 rounds of ammunition and one more assistant who carries all this on himself? By the time the MP-18 was being created, the Germans were already far from being able to "assault" groups. But to fend off them machine guns were sorely lacking.
              1. AK64
                AK64 1 July 2016 13: 57
                +1
                How do you imagine an attack aircraft with an ammunition load of 2000 rounds and another assistant who carries all this on himself?

                In the assault groups there was a very clear division of duties, and ammunition for their main firepower was carried by the entire group, and not just the "assistant".
                There, for example, grenade launchers were appointed - and again all carried grenades for them. "Tank" (or "barricades") met - one soldier, armored, in front of the trench - and the rest behind him.

                By the time the MP-18 was being created, the Germans were already far from "assault" groups. But machine guns were sorely lacking to fend off them.

                You, you see, did not hear about Ludendorff’s advance ... March-July 1918. About 5000 thousand MP-18.
                Ludendorff he trained for what: he gathered attack aircraft from all armies and threw into a breakthrough in Flanders. Well, the stormtroopers provided a breakthrough ... (True, where would that Ludendorf attackers then gain another such breakthrough?)
                It was there that the MP-18 showed itself.
              2. Operator
                Operator 1 July 2016 15: 13
                +4
                German assault group of the 1917 model of the year
                1. Operator
                  Operator 1 July 2016 15: 16
                  0
                  Austro-Hungarian assault group of the 1918 model of the year
                  1. Operator
                    Operator 1 July 2016 15: 19
                    +3
                    1918 French Assault Team of the Year
                    1. Operator
                      Operator 1 July 2016 15: 34
                      0
                      Assault group of the Russian expeditionary force of the 1917 model of the year
                      1. Operator
                        Operator 1 July 2016 15: 36
                        +2
                        The assault group of the Red Army of the 1944 model of the year
                      2. Operator
                        Operator 3 July 2016 20: 52
                        0
                        1918 British Assault Team of the Year
              3. Monarchist
                Monarchist 1 July 2016 18: 07
                +1
                Here you are right: 1916-1917 is not 1914, when they were advancing somehow and without a "trench broom" they were controlled, and then they were interested in the possibility of stopping the enemy's advance.
          3. svp67
            svp67 1 July 2016 13: 30
            +3
            Quote: bunta
            Typical fallacy. The first PP Vilar Perosa and MP-18 were completely mobile light machine guns for protection from the trenches, and not for stripping them.

            Yes, yes ... that's just WHY the first serial submachine guns went in bulk to the assault units and units?
            The assault squads were the first army units in the world to receive submachine guns. Such a submachine gun was an MP18 designed by Hugo Schmeisser. The design of the MP18 included much of what distinguished submachine guns from World War II. The MP2 used 18 mm Parabellum cartridges and worked on the principle of a free shutter. Pressing the trigger, the shooter released the shutter, which was fed forward, sent the upper cartridge from the magazine to the chamber, after which a shot occurred. Under the pressure of the powder gases, the bolt rolled back and squeezed the trigger spring, after which the whole cycle was repeated again. It was a very straightforward and at the same time extremely effective device. During 9, more than 1918 MP30000 submachine guns were sent to the German army, but most of them arrived in the unit after the great March offensive. General Ludendorff very much hoped with the help of MP18 to increase the firepower of the German infantry during the assault by the allies of the Hindenburg line.
            1. bunta
              bunta 1 July 2016 13: 40
              +1
              Quote: svp67
              WHY the first serial submachine guns went massive in the STORM

              Present the document, if it does not complicate you, about the creation of such groups, the composition of weapons. Delivery note and receipt in receipt by the commander of at least one such group. :)
              15 000 have reached the front is mass supply?
              Total ordered 50 000 pieces is it massively ?! :)
              1. AK64
                AK64 1 July 2016 13: 59
                0
                15 000 have reached the front is mass supply?
                Total ordered 50 000 pieces is it massively ?! :)


                1-2 per assault group
          4. sibiryouk
            sibiryouk 2 July 2016 18: 15
            0
            MP-18 was created to equip assault groups, i.e. nevertheless, to capture the enemy’s trenches, too!
      3. Operator
        Operator 1 July 2016 12: 56
        +1
        For firing at distances over 200 meters at the rifle / infantry squad in the 1930-40's, light machine guns and self-loading rifles already existed.
      4. Alf
        Alf 1 July 2016 20: 31
        +3
        Quote: Leto
        but in an open field it’s deadly to attack an enemy with software.

        I personally do not think that, for example, the Americans, having an excellent self-loading of Garanda, fired from 200, 300 and more meters in defense and, moreover, in attack.
        What is the difference of what to shoot in an attack if a soldier runs with his breath down? Or should he stop, catch his breath, take the authorized stand for firing standing or from a knee, choose targets (which either move or partially stick out of the trenches) with 200-300 meters and hit her with a single shot? In such conditions, it is unlikely to get anywhere even from self-loading, even from PP.
        Recently I came across the comments of a Fort Bragg shooting instructor (I think it’s not worth telling WHO is training in F-B). So he said that according to the 2MV experience, a soldier must fire from a distance of no more than 200-150 meters to hit a target.
        1. Svidetel 45
          Svidetel 45 2 July 2016 00: 47
          +4
          This is true, from my own experience of the army service I know that when they fired as part of a squad at predetermined targets, the squad showed good results at 300-350 meters. but in the movement on suddenly appearing targets, so to speak "unplanned", they managed to smear by shooting bursts from 40-50 meters.
    2. Mik13
      Mik13 1 July 2016 09: 08
      +4
      Quote: moskowit
      This is all, of course, interesting. But the main reason for not accepting the submachine gun for arming into rifle units was not indicated. He EXCLUDED firing combat at distances over 200-from meters. Therefore, the course was taken on self-loading and automatic rifles. There were more than a million of them by the beginning of the war in the Red Army ...

      And serial PDA was more expensive than SVT ....
      ... The price of the planned purchase of "PPD-34" in 1936 was as much as 1350 rubles. For comparison, the 7,62 mm rifle mod. 1891/1930 in the same year it was ordered by the army at a price of 90 rubles, the Nagant revolver - 50 rubles, and the Degtyarev light machine gun "DP-27" - 787 rubles. Degtyarev's submachine gun in the light of all this seemed a luxury with very dubious tactical capabilities ...

      .... in 1936 the Simonov rifle was put into service under the name "ABC-36". The price of the planned purchase of an automatic rifle Simonov in 1937 was 1393 rubles ...

      ... February 26, 1939 was adopted by the Red Army under the name of the 7,62-mm self-loading rifle Tokarev system mod. 1938 ("SVT-38"). Tellingly, it was in February 1939 that the production of "PPD" was discontinued. Perhaps, between these two events - the adoption of a new self-loading rifle and the withdrawal from production of the submachine gun - there is an obvious connection. Moreover, the connection is not only tactical, but also economic. The price of "SVT" mass series was 880 rubles - much less than the Degtyarev submachine gun.

      All quotes are from the book of A.V. Isaev. "Ten Myths of World War II"
      http://www.bibliotekar.ru/antisuvorov/index.htm
      1. svp67
        svp67 1 July 2016 12: 00
        +1
        Quote: Mik13
        And serial PDA was more expensive than SVT ....

        This is one of the reasons for the emergence of PCA.
      2. Monarchist
        Monarchist 1 July 2016 18: 17
        -1
        But as I recall, the RPD more precisely in the 1927 modification was the most massive in the years of the Second World War, and if I remember, then the Finns captured a certain number of these machine guns during the winter campaign. They quickly appreciated their advantage and adapted themselves for armament.
  4. db1967
    db1967 1 July 2016 06: 52
    +1
    Did you forget the teaching staff?
    1. Svidetel 45
      Svidetel 45 2 July 2016 00: 59
      +1
      He, the faculty, was not forgotten, he was produced at the enterprises of Leningrad from 42 years, but in more limited quantities. than PCA, because the production of the latter has already been established on a large scale at all relevant enterprises, and it was not considered expedient to change already debugged production in war conditions.
  5. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 1 July 2016 06: 56
    +1
    The devil is in the details. PDP is also very similar. The scheme is successful, manufacturing is different (milling in Finnish and PPD and already stamping in PPSh). the caliber of Suomi is 9x19, ours is 7,62x25. You are right, most likely the idea was taken after the winter war. But large-scale production of Suomi is difficult without a 5-coordinate CNC machine, and PPSh and PPS are easy ... and this is the strength.
  6. inkass_98
    inkass_98 1 July 2016 07: 49
    +2
    the drum mechanism was again removed from the corkscrew

    I understand that a typo, but on Friday, the phrase sounds ambiguous laughing .
  7. mamont5
    mamont5 1 July 2016 08: 07
    -1
    "But Fedorov's assault rifle was precisely an assault rifle designed for a rifle cartridge."

    As far as I remember, not under a rifle cartridge, but under an intermediate one, like SKS and AK.
    1. Leto
      Leto 1 July 2016 08: 20
      +6
      Quote: mamont5
      as far as I remember, not under a rifle cartridge, but under an intermediate one, like SKS and AK.

      Japanese rifle.
      1. Operator
        Operator 1 July 2016 13: 14
        0
        Ammo Bullet Energy:

        7,62X54 mm - 3990 J
        6,50X50 mm - 2615 J
        7,62X39 mm - 2206 J
        7,62X25 mm - 700 J
        9,00X19 mm - 678 J

        The energy of the Arisaka rifle cartridge was at the level of the intermediate cartridge of the 1943 model.
    2. Amurets
      Amurets 1 July 2016 09: 41
      +2
      Quote: mamont5
      "But Fedorov's assault rifle was precisely an assault rifle designed for a rifle cartridge."

      Initially, V.G.Fyodorov developed his 6,5mm caliber rifle cartridge, but since it was not possible to organize the production of these cartridges, he used a cartridge of the same caliber from the Arisak rifle, which was produced at the Petrograd cartridge factory. The main reason for the appearance of this rifle cartridge was the fact that the sleeve had no edge and it was easier to create automatic weapons. http://ww1.milua.org/bullets1916.htm
      These are links to the Fedorov cartridge
      http://kaspijs.livejournal.com/31110.html
      http://raigap.livejournal.com/85108.html
  8. guzik007
    guzik007 1 July 2016 08: 52
    +13
    The repression against supporters of this weapon — Uborevich and Tukhachevsky — to some extent contributed to the persecution of submachine guns.
    -------------------------------------------------
    I read it exactly to this point and spat. Learn materiel, author! it was these two m ... ka that hindered the introduction of automatic weapons into the army. They squandered tens of millions on the development of "powerful magnets that deflect projectiles", "radio-controlled aircraft and tanks", "dual-use equipment (armored tractors)", recoilless guns for tanks and aircraft and other nonsense. Suffice it to recall that after they were shot (according to merit! ) in just a year, more than 90 thousand machine guns came to the army (about one and a half thousand a year earlier).
    It was only with the arrival of the "dumb Voroshilov" that the development and introduction of the famous "Katyusha" and the magnificent 76-mm gun of Grabin into the army ended.
    1. AK64
      AK64 1 July 2016 11: 47
      +2
      It was only with the arrival of the "dumb Voroshilov" that the development and introduction of the famous "Katyusha" and the magnificent 76-mm gun of Grabin into the army ended.


      In fact, Voroshilov was the Minister of Defense (first the People’s Commissar of Military and Naval Affairs, and then the People’s Commissar of Defense) from 1925 to May 1940.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 1 July 2016 17: 56
      +2
      Quote: guzik007
      It was only with the arrival of the "dumb Voroshilov" that the development and introduction of the famous "Katyusha" and the magnificent 76-mm gun of Grabin into the army ended.

      Is it really Tukhachevsky personally introduced into the design of the F-22 Grabin an unsuccessful cartridge extraction mechanism that made normal work with shots fired by simplified military technology impossible? smile

      Another thing can be blamed for Tukhachevsky - during his time, a frankly crude three-inch Grabin gun was introduced into the troops, in which the cartridges of "military-grade" shots were knocked out from the muzzle by a punch. It was only after 4 years that it was replaced by a normal IVDS, in which the extraction mechanism was constructively completely different.
    3. Monarchist
      Monarchist 1 July 2016 18: 38
      0
      About moving Tukhachevsky with recoilless guns, I advise you to read Shirokorada, where you can learn more about these guns
  9. Aaleks1974
    Aaleks1974 1 July 2016 09: 05
    +1
    Quote: mamont5
    "But Fedorov's assault rifle was precisely an assault rifle designed for a rifle cartridge."

    As far as I remember, not under a rifle cartridge, but under an intermediate one, like SKS and AK.

    Fedorov's assault rifle used a 6.5mm rifle cartridge from the Japanese Arisak rifle.
    1. Bormanxnumx
      Bormanxnumx 1 July 2016 09: 56
      +1
      Quote: Aspeed
      Yeah, the devil is in the details. Degtyarev introduced the PDD as early as 29, Suomi appeared at 31.

      PPSuomi did not appear in 31, but was officially adopted - the devil is in the details.
      1. ZAV69
        ZAV69 1 July 2016 11: 12
        0
        And how can you copy-paste a secret experimental sample before taking it into service? At this time, they are hiding him almost in a safe.
        Most likely parallel development, submachine guns were developed in World War I, so a good design could come up with several designers
    2. 4thParasinok
      4thParasinok 11 July 2016 20: 05
      0
      Quote: Aaleks1974
      Quote: mamont5
      "But Fedorov's assault rifle was precisely an assault rifle designed for a rifle cartridge."

      As far as I remember, not under a rifle cartridge, but under an intermediate one, like SKS and AK.

      Fedorov's assault rifle used a 6.5mm rifle cartridge from the Japanese Arisak rifle.

      the difference between created and used you know? It seems not.
      A new line was purchased for the release of Fedorov’s cartridge, but it was decided to deploy on it the production of three-linear cartridges, which is why it was necessary to redo the weapon under Arisakov’s cartridges.
  10. Palch
    Palch 1 July 2016 10: 22
    0
    And where is the comparison with the faculty ??
    1. Amurets
      Amurets 1 July 2016 10: 40
      +1
      Quote: Palch
      And where is the comparison with the faculty ??

      Do not get to the faculty in the next issue.
      1. Red_Hamer
        Red_Hamer 1 July 2016 13: 32
        0
        They just stopped at it, apparently it will be continued. But I already cropped up in defense thereof laughing
    2. AK64
      AK64 1 July 2016 11: 50
      +1
      And where is the comparison with the faculty ??


      In 42
  11. Kenneth
    Kenneth 1 July 2016 12: 59
    0
    Very nice article, thanks.
  12. Colonel
    Colonel 1 July 2016 13: 02
    +2
    This made it possible to create a platoon of machine gunners in each rifle company, and a company in each battalion.

    In my opinion, the author is wrong. A company of machine gunners was introduced to the staff of the rifle regiment.
    1. AK64
      AK64 1 July 2016 13: 17
      +2
      This made it possible to create a platoon of machine gunners in each rifle company, and a company in each battalion.


      In my opinion, the author is wrong. A company of machine gunners was introduced to the staff of the rifle regiment.


      Yes, exactly so, by the order of the NPO, October 1941.

      And according to the pre-war states, there are 2 military posts in each department.
  13. Red_Hamer
    Red_Hamer 1 July 2016 13: 28
    +8
    It was on the tests that started on April 5 that the Sudaev submachine gun (PPS) appeared, which was able to compete with the PPSh.
    PPS is a masterpiece of laconicism, simplicity and profitability. Rumor has it that some people still take off running in Africa.
    1. AK64
      AK64 1 July 2016 14: 02
      0
      PPS is a masterpiece of laconicism, simplicity and profitability.

      Walls!

      Rumor has it that some people still take off running in Africa.

      Run and run. As with the Wall
      1. AK64
        AK64 1 July 2016 14: 28
        -1


        Here it is --- a stub of a water pipe + a couple of parts from a sewing machine = the best PP of all time

        I can’t understand why my picture doesn’t accept :(
        Teach someone thread to put pictures, huh?
        1. marshes
          marshes 1 July 2016 14: 36
          +1
          Quote: AK64
          I can’t understand why my picture doesn’t accept :(

          "Protected" what you wanted from the site.
          http://world.guns.ru/
          1. AK64
            AK64 1 July 2016 14: 42
            +1
            "Protected" what you wanted from the site.
            //world.guns.ru/

            Thank you, swamps ...
            But I can’t understand why it’s not included ...

            Gan.ru also did not work, I had to look in English.
            1. marshes
              marshes 1 July 2016 14: 45
              0
              Quote: AK64
              Gan.ru also did not work, I had to look in English.

              And what they wanted to lay out, maybe I'll find it.
              1. AK64
                AK64 1 July 2016 15: 16
                0
                And what they wanted to lay out, maybe I'll find it.


                thanks, already put a photo of the wall
                (just like "Chamberlain's answer" in the photo of the PPP at Red_Hamer)
                1. Revolver
                  Revolver 1 July 2016 17: 48
                  +1
                  Add another Swedish Carl Gustav. And the Swedes are not embarrassed to admit that on the desks of the designers lay Sten and PPS, from whom they fought all the best.

        2. Revolver
          Revolver 1 July 2016 17: 43
          0
          Quote: AK64
          I can’t understand why my picture doesn’t accept :(
          Teach someone thread to put pictures, huh?

          I never learned to put directly. The chip does not work, or am I using it wrong. But in the editing mode just taken, it works. So I’ll prepare the pictures in advance, stand up, and then have a few minutes to insert them.


          old joke
          According to the reform of 1861, every peasant received a goat and put on. But some did not figure it out and don it wrong.
          wassat
        3. 4thParasinok
          4thParasinok 11 July 2016 20: 10
          0
          Quote: AK64
          Here it is --- a stub of a water pipe + a couple of parts from a sewing machine = the best PP of all time

          yeah, this is the best for the British, because there is nothing but the lowest price in it. Accuracy-0. The British themselves complained that "even though it is impossible to hit a person from 50m from it, it was better than nothing, and most importantly cheap." Kakakha, and de army weapons.
    2. Alf
      Alf 1 July 2016 20: 39
      +3
      Quote: Red_Hamer
      still some people in africa take off running.

      In Africa, they just don’t run around ...
  14. ISSIDOR
    ISSIDOR 1 July 2016 14: 01
    +3
    The author is mistaken; no separate, special key is required for platooning a disk store.
    1. Bayonet
      Bayonet 1 July 2016 18: 03
      +2
      Quote: ISSIDOR
      The author is mistaken; no separate, special key is required for platooning a disk store.

      Of course!

      STORE EQUIPMENT

      To equip a disk store:
      1. Remove the cover, for which:
      a) while holding the magazine with your left hand, with the middle finger, push the magazine latch up to the failure, and turn the valve with the thumb of your right hand about 90 °;
      b) holding the magazine with his left hand, as indicated in fig. 56, with your right hand, separate the lid.

      2. ^ Insert the spring of the magazine (Fig. 57), for which: take the magazine in your left hand, with your fingers on the tabs of the drum, insert the spring of the drum by rotating the drum counterclockwise. Eight clicks should be heard.
      When starting the spring: a) do not let go of the drum until a click is heard; b) make sure that during the first rotation of the drum the feeder slides along the inner stream of the spiral of the cochlea, and the cochlea itself remains stationary (if this rule is not observed, cartridges from the internal spiral will not be fed).

      3. Put cartridges in the store. Take the magazine in your left hand, tilt it slightly and lay 71 cartridges along the entire length of the outer and inner streams of the spiral.
      4. Release the drum. Taking the magazine in your left hand, slightly rotate the drum counterclockwise with your right hand and, pressing the magazine latch with the middle finger of your left hand, release the drum, after which the cartridges will be spring-loaded.
      Check for protruding cartridges; if so, trim them.

      5. ^ Put on the magazine cover. Pull the magazine latch up to failure and secure it with a latch.
  15. pigkiller
    pigkiller 1 July 2016 14: 20
    0
    Quote: Red_Hamer
    It was on the tests that started on April 5 that the Sudaev submachine gun (PPS) appeared, which was able to compete with the PPSh.
    PPS is a masterpiece of laconicism, simplicity and profitability. Rumor has it that some people still take off running in Africa.

    And also, some people run somewhere in the mountains and selva of Latin America.
  16. Bormanxnumx
    Bormanxnumx 1 July 2016 19: 32
    0
    Quote: Operator
    Ammo Bullet Energy:

    7,62X54 mm - 3990 J
    6,50X50 mm - 2615 J
    7,62X39 mm - 2206 J
    7,62X25 mm - 700 J
    9,00X19 mm - 678 J

    The energy of the Arisaka rifle cartridge was at the level of the intermediate cartridge of the 1943 model.

    The definition of "intermediate cartridge" includes not only the magnitude of the bullet energy (by the way, the values ​​you indicated for the cartridge 6,5x50 2615J. WRONG - in Russian sources, including Wikipedia indicate it with a bullet M = 9g. V = 770m / s, which gives out 2668 J. E = (mv2) / 2 repeat... And 7,62x54 mm is also questionable, with an LPS bullet M = 9,6g. V = 820m / s we get 3228 J.) but also the recoil impulse created during the shot is p = m * v. The 7,62x54 has a recoil impulse of 7,87J, Arisaka 6.93J, and 7,62x39 have an energy of up to 2080J and a recoil impulse of 5,47J. For example, our "full-fledged" intermediate cartridge 5,45 × 39 has a recoil impulse of 3,15J.
    1. Operator
      Operator 1 July 2016 22: 41
      +1
      We calculate the kinetic energy of bullets for cartridges according to the formula
      E = (mv2) / 2, where m and v, respectively, the mass and speed of the bullet
      7,62X54 0,008 * 895 * 895 / 2 = 3204 J
      6,50X50 0,009 * 770 * 770 / 2 = 2668 J
      7,69X39 0,008 * 710 * 710 / 2 = 2016 J

      The recoil momentum of a firearm is measured not in Joules, but in kgf * s or N * s and is calculated by the empirical formula
      P = (mv + 1275w) / g, where: m ~ bullet mass, v ~ bullet speed, w ~ mass of gunpowder (flying out of the barrel), g ~ gravitational acceleration (to translate the value from N * s to kgf * s)
      If, for simplicity, the mass of gunpowder is excluded from the calculation, then the recoil momentum will be
      7,62x54 0,008 * 895 / 9,81 = 0,73 kgf * s
      6,50x50 0,009 * 770 / 9,81 = 0,7 kgf * s
      7,69x39 0,008 * 710 / 9,81 = 0,58 kgf * s

      To calculate the recoil momentum perceived by the shooter, one must also take into account the mass of weapons: the 7,62-mm Mosin rifle weighs 4,5 kg, the 6,5-mm Fedorov assault rifle 4,93 kg, the 7,62-mm Kalashnikov assault rifle 3,8 kg.
      The perceived recoil when firing from a Fedorov assault rifle compared to a Kalashnikov assault rifle is 0,7 * 3,8 / 4,93 = 0,54 kgf * s - at the level of the intermediate cartridge of the 1943 model of the year.
      1. Bormanxnumx
        Bormanxnumx 2 July 2016 00: 01
        0
        I confess that a little was reported in SI units - of course, the momentum of a bullet (and not recoil) in my calculations should be in n * s.
        But let's try to "calculate" the truth in this dispute :)
        We calculate the recoil energy (without taking into account the influence of the moving parts of the weapon and other things):
        M bullets V bullets = Weapons V weapons Weapon recoil energy = MorVor2 / 2
        I managed:
        Mosinka-5,9J
        Arisaka 5J
        AK-4,45j
        AK74 -1,4J
        It turns out that the cartridge 7,62 * 39 is closer in terms of recoil to rifle cartridges than to modern intermediate ones. If I made a mistake where, please correct :)
        Sincerely, Boris.
        1. AK64
          AK64 2 July 2016 00: 06
          0
          We calculate the recoil energy (without taking into account the influence of the moving parts of the weapon and other things):


          Recoil is not energy; recoil is momentum.
          If recoil then impulse.
          1. Droid
            Droid 3 July 2016 08: 07
            0
            Quote: AK64
            Recoil is not energy; recoil is momentum.
            If recoil then impulse.

            And momentum and energy, and even force with power, these are all recoil parameters.
        2. Operator
          Operator 2 July 2016 11: 45
          +1
          I confirm:
          - the recoil momentum of the bullet cartridge 5,45x39 mm is
          0,0032x900 / 9,81 = 0,29 kgf * s
          those. two times less than 7,62x39 mm and three times less than 7,62x54 mm.
          No wonder the cartridges of calibers 5,45 mm and 5,56 mm are called not intermediate, but low-pulse.

          Another thing is that they became ineffective in connection with the proliferation of body armor with ceramic plates. In this connection, we can expect a transition / return to calibers 6 mm, 6,5 mm, intermediate and rifle 7,62 mm.

          New designs of hand-held small arms such as balanced automation, a fire monitor, multi-barrel, etc. are required. to ensure targeted shooting bursts of ammunition of larger calibers.
          1. tracer
            tracer 2 July 2016 18: 46
            0
            A masterpiece ... especially about multi-barrel. The choice of caliber I recall is determined not only by the penetration of body armor. There are many factories ... wearable ammunition, for example, a strategic stock of ammunition ... 6.5 cartridge was created back in the USSR. And awesome sniper rifle. But the matter did not go further than experimental samples. Separate developments will be there, but something will not fundamentally happen. The laws of physics on planet earth have not been canceled. A PPSh weapon is excellent for its tasks and its time. It’s a bit heavy ... I but long lines could be beaten.
            1. Operator
              Operator 2 July 2016 19: 08
              -1
              The SVK rifle had an 6 mm caliber.
              Masterpiece cardinally, yeah.
              1. Droid
                Droid 3 July 2016 08: 18
                +1
                Quote: Operator
                The SVK rifle had an 6 mm caliber.
                Masterpiece cardinally, yeah.

                Enough cardinally. The superiority in firing efficiency over SVD is 2,3 times on average this is a lot.
                1. Operator
                  Operator 3 July 2016 18: 19
                  0
                  You did not understand the sarcasm - "masterpiece-cardinally" referred to the opponent's knowledge (in his terms) in terms of the caliber of the SVK.
          2. Droid
            Droid 3 July 2016 08: 11
            0
            Quote: Operator
            - the recoil momentum of the bullet cartridge 5,45x39 mm is

            There is no momentum of recoil of a bullet. There is a bullet momentum, but there is a recoil momentum. The recoil momentum of the 5,45 mm 7N6 cartridge, at an initial speed of 900 m / s, is 0,49 kgf * s.
            Quote: Operator
            Another thing is that they became ineffective in connection with the proliferation of body armor with ceramic plates. In this connection, we can expect a transition / return to calibers 6 mm, 6,5 mm, intermediate and rifle 7,62 mm.

            AK74 is more effective than any self-loading and automatic rifle at least for 6,5, at least for rifle 7,62. And it doesn’t matter in or without body armor.
            1. Operator
              Operator 3 July 2016 19: 22
              0
              Protection class of ceramic plates of body armor at a distance of 50 meters:
              cartridge 5,45x39 mm
              bullet 7Н10 - 4 class
              armor-piercing bullet 7H24 - 5 class
              cartridge 7,62x54 mm
              bullet 7Н13 - 6 class
              armor-piercing bullet 7H14 - 6 class

              The density of boron carbide (used as ceramic armor) is 2,5 g / cc, the density of titanium 4,5 g / cc. That allows with the weight of body armor 15 kg to provide using ceramics protection in 6 class.
              In this case, any bullet of the 5,45 caliber is guaranteed not to be able to penetrate the ceramic body armor at a range of aimed fire from small arms - from 100 to 300 meters.

              Which requires a transition to a larger caliber up to 7,62 mm or an increase in barrel length to 100-120 calibers (for example, the 6-mm SVK rifle had a barrel length of 720 mm).
              1. Droid
                Droid 3 July 2016 20: 29
                0
                Quote: Operator
                In this case, any bullet of the 5,45 caliber is guaranteed not to be able to penetrate the ceramic body armor at a range of aimed fire from small arms - from 100 to 300 meters.

                Yes, even at 500 m. Anyway, the AK74 is more efficient.
                Everything is very simple. A bulletproof vest is primarily a fabric that protects against fragments, and a bulletproof plate covers the LHV and the plate area of ​​only 7,5-8 square decimeters. And the frontal projection area of ​​the running figure is 64 square meters. dm. The plate intercepts only 12% -13% of the bullets that hit it, everything else is sewn at 500 m, or, like limbs, is not covered by anything at all. And now it’s worth remembering that the AK74 falls 1,5-2 times more often than self-loading under a rifle cartridge and it turns out that the probability of defeating the AK74 will be 1,3-1,75 times higher. This is provided that the rifle does 100% penetrate the plate, which is not a fact, because now it is becoming the norm to supply plates that hold a 7,62 mm rifle armor-piercing bullet from 10 meters.
                1. Operator
                  Operator 3 July 2016 21: 33
                  -1
                  1. The area of ​​the frontal projection of the trunk (including the pelvic region) is about 32 square dm (1 / 2 of the total frontal surface area). The head and limbs cannot be protected from the impact of machine guns and rifle bullets due to the fragility of the cervical vertebrae and joints.

                  To protect the body in 6 class, a boron carbide plate with a thickness of 10 mm and a weight of 8 kg is required. In this case, the plate will intercept 1 / 2 the number of bullets that fell into the projection of the human figure. And only 1 / 20 part of these bullets will hit the head, depriving the fighter of the ability to fire.

                  Those. 6-class ceramic body armor twenty times reduces the effectiveness of small arms fire.

                  But this calculation was made only from the conditions of using a bulletproof vest with two ceramic plates with a total weight of the order of 20 kg, which is on the verge of human capabilities to fight for one to three hours (depending on the ambient temperature).

                  Therefore, in the general case, body armor of the 4 and 5 classes will be used, designed to protect against bullets of the caliber 5,45-5,6 mm. In this case, the effectiveness of the use of rifle caliber 7,62 mm will increase in eleven times (excluding hitting the limbs).

                  2. The probability of getting a person’s figure from the 7,62-mm automatic rifle of the Baryshev system when shooting bursts in the projection exceeds the probability of getting from the 5,45-mm AK-74.

                  3. So, the transition to high-impulse cartridges of the army hand-held small arms in combination with certain measures to stabilize weapons when firing bursts in the near future cannot be avoided. IMHO
                  1. Bormanxnumx
                    Bormanxnumx 3 July 2016 22: 33
                    +1
                    It is doubtful about the return of rifle cartridges, most likely they will move in the direction of 6,5 × 39 mm Grendel., 300 Whisper, etc.
                    As regards the effectiveness of the armor, now the bulk of combat losses are not from bullet wounds, but from shrapnel damage. Therefore, the 4th class of protection is enough for the eyes, otherwise it turns out the best is the enemy of the good.
                    1. Operator
                      Operator 4 July 2016 01: 04
                      -1
                      This is not only about rifle cartridges, but about the whole class of so-called. high-pulse cartridges, which include 7,62х54, 7,62х51, 6х49 and 6,5х39 (instead of the class of low-pulse cartridges 5,56х45 and 5,45х39).

                      The .300 Whisper is not suitable for infantry / rifle units due to the low initial speed and high steepness of the trajectory.
                      1. Bormanxnumx
                        Bormanxnumx 4 July 2016 07: 48
                        +1
                        Quote: Operator

                        The .300 Whisper is not suitable for infantry / rifle units due to the low initial speed and high steepness of the trajectory.

                        He has ballistics at least no worse than our 7,62 * 39 -8g bullet 730m / s. Regarding cartridge 6 * 49, the military was not particularly inspired by the resource of the trunks that had to be sacrificed for the sake of ballistics. A resource of 200 shots is good for piece target rifle but by no means for automatic weapons.
                      2. Operator
                        Operator 4 July 2016 12: 05
                        -1
                        The .300 Whisper cartridge with a V-MAX bullet weighing 7,4 grams and an initial speed of 724 m / s has a muzzle energy of 1870 J - twenty percent less than AK-47.

                        But the hypothetical cartridge 6x39 mm weighing 6 grams and an initial speed of 1000 m / s will have an energy of 3000 J with less barrel wear than 6x49 mm. Due to its high speed and specific load, it will penetrate higher-class bulletproof vests than the 7,62x54 cartridge with a bullet weighing 8 grams, an initial speed of 895 m / s, muzzle energy 3204 J and an equal specific load.

                        In this case, the ratio of recoil impulses 6x39 and 7,62x54 will be clearly better in favor of a smaller caliber cartridge:
                        6х1000/8х895 = 0,84

                        The wear resistance of the 6-mm barrel can be increased by a multiple due to the use of the oval section barrel according to the Lancaster type.
                      3. 4thParasinok
                        4thParasinok 11 July 2016 20: 27
                        0
                        Quote: Operator
                        But a hypothetical cartridge 6x39 mm weighing 6 grams and an initial speed of 1000 m / s

                        you better not do masturbation, but look at the characteristics of 6,5 × 39 mm Grendel and the real use of bronik ...
                        Quote: Droid
                        No, no one needs.

                        no need to decide for everyone. the Americans didn’t take it into service for only one reason - too much money needs to be invested. Replacing only the barrel and the shutter did not work out.
                      4. Droid
                        Droid 12 July 2016 07: 59
                        0
                        Quote: 4-th Paradise
                        the Americans didn’t take it into service for only one reason - too much money needs to be invested.

                        Very sorry. If they not only crossed, but all of NATO would have been forced to cross, they could have been given the Hero of Russia.
                      5. 4thParasinok
                        4thParasinok 12 July 2016 18: 03
                        -1
                        Quote: Droid
                        Very sorry. If they not only crossed, but all of NATO would have been forced to cross, they could have been given the Hero of Russia.

                        fortunately there is someone to sign the awards ... and it will not be difficult for them to switch to 6,8 × 43mm Remington SPC only by replacing the barrel and sighting, and this will require a minimum of money.
                        Although 6,8 × 43mm and lost the competition 6,5 × 39, but in all respects it surpassed 5,56 × 45 mm and, but for most of our characteristics our 7,63 × 39.
                        they had only one problem with this cartridge - it turned out to be the second.
                      6. Droid
                        Droid 12 July 2016 22: 03
                        0
                        Quote: 4-th Paradise
                        fortunately there is someone to sign the award ...

                        There is no one hero of Russia. And not at all. Unfortunately, there is no transition to either 6,8 or 6,5. They did not earn the Hero of Russia.
          3. Droid
            Droid 4 July 2016 08: 19
            -1
            Quote: BORMAN82
            most likely will move in the direction of 6,5 × 39 mm Grendel., 300 Whisper, etc.

            No, no one needs.
            1. Bormanxnumx
              Bormanxnumx 4 July 2016 13: 15
              0
              Maybe, but no one will do the machine for 7,62x54, 7,62x51 either.
            2. Operator
              Operator 4 July 2016 14: 52
              -1
              "Never say never" (C)

              Ceramists will invent some kind of 6-class nanowire and gunsmiths will switch to the 7,62x51 cartridge with balanced automation laughing
            3. Droid
              Droid 4 July 2016 15: 34
              0
              Quote: Operator
              and gunsmiths will switch to 7,62x51 cartridge with balanced automation

              Do not go over. For two reasons:
              1. 7,62x51 still will not break the plate.
              2. No balanced automation will help.
            4. oking
              oking 4 July 2016 16: 06
              -3
              Quote: Operator
              gunsmiths will switch to 7,62x51 cartridge with balanced automation

              This is a rifle cartridge. To balance the recoil of weapons on such a cartridge can not be a gunsmith, but a wizard. But while they are not there, so there will be nothing balanced on such a cartridge. And even more so the automatic individual. This is only the USSR, a sick man, for some reason produced ABC-36 and AVT-40.
            5. 4thParasinok
              4thParasinok 11 July 2016 20: 53
              0
              your favorite Americans ****** on your M1 Garand and M14 produced from 1936 to 1968. And the M14 is in service now.
              And where are you doing FN FAL, which you just ripped off from SVT-40, where the Germans disappeared from their FG-42, G-41, G-43 or G-3 ... Do you continue the list?
              The land gave birth to the pepsigole Americanodides, as they already got with their ambition and lack of brains.
            6. oking
              oking 11 July 2016 22: 23
              0
              Quote: 4-th Paradise
              M1 Garand and M14 produced from 1936 to 1968. And the M14 is in service now.

              And where on this site from so many ignorant illiterate? Miracle, you first learn what an automatic weapon is, and what a self-loading weapon is. And then rattle the keys.
              Until then, shut up. You’ll come down for a thoughtful one.
              Quote: 4-th Paradise
              And where are you doing FN FAL, which you just ripped off from SVT-40

              1. The story of how the Belgians, the leading gunsmiths of small arms in the world, tore off the obviously unsuccessful (and it was not successful, the designers of the "brilliant Soviet shooting school" did not schmogli) Soviet SVT-40 reminds a blockbuster about how Versace together with Armani sneaked into the Bolshevichka's warehouse and stole a suit there. Then they ripped it open, creatively reworked it and "made a new costume based on it." And for sure, there are two legs. Scoop immediately understands a converted Bolshevik.
              Miracle, M. Mondragon is considered the "father" of all self-loading (and automatic machines) with a gas pipe from the barrel. Such a Mexican, he patented his rifle back in 1887. And they produced more than 1 million.
              2. In addition, FN FAL and SVT-40 are also not automatic weapons.
              Quote: 4-th Paradise
              where did the Germans go with their FG-42, G-41, G-43 or G-3 ... Do you need to continue the list?

              Go on, go on. And you can cross out these. This is not an automatic weapon.
              Okay, you still can't think of anything. Knowledge is zero. I will tell you, illiterate. Automatic rifles on a rifle cartridge were DP-27 and the American BAR, for example. Do you understand how they look now? Do they look like individual weapons? No? So remember this, come in handy.
              Quote: 4-th Paradise
              The land gave birth to the pepsigole Americanodides, as they already got with their ambition and lack of brains.

              Well, where are they to individual, "especially advanced" representatives of the Buratino generation (from the country of fools). These, with their illiterate ambition, will plug anyone in the belt.
              PS. At least you are not so clearly envious of the Yankees, or something. And then rushing it at you from all cracks. You look ugly.
          4. The comment was deleted.
  • Droid
    Droid 4 July 2016 08: 03
    -1
    Quote: Operator
    To protect the body in 6 class, a boron carbide plate with a thickness of 10 mm and a weight of 8 kg is required. In this case, the plate will intercept 1 / 2 the number of bullets that fell into the projection of the human figure. And only 1 / 20 part of these bullets will hit the head, depriving the fighter of the ability to fire.

    Not 1/20 in the head, but ~ 20% and another 56% in the limbs.
    In addition, in the armor weighing 12-15 kg, the soldier will die long before approaching the enemy.
    Quote: Operator
    Therefore, in the general case, body armor of classes 4 and 5 will be used, designed to protect against bullets of caliber 5,45-5,6 mm. In this case, the effectiveness of using a rifle caliber of 7,62 mm will increase eleven times (excluding hitting the limbs).

    So, for information, a bulletproof vest that holds 5,45 with 10 m holds LPS from the SVD for 100 m. So that nothing rifles penetrate further than 100 m.
    Well, the plate of the distribution of hits at the place of localization ...
    1. Operator
      Operator 4 July 2016 12: 31
      -1
      When firing bursts with handguns, the distribution of bullet hits in the frontal projection of the human body will be directly proportional to the surface area of ​​the body parts visible by the shooter when the person is standing standing open, in the trench along the chest and in the trench along the neck.
      Judging by the statistics of WWII and WWII you have given, the distribution of hits in the trunk and in the head is correlated as 24,2 and 19,5 percent (hits in the limbs are not considered as not incapacitating the enemy).
      Those. providing penetration of bulletproof vests of class 4 and 5, it is possible to increase the efficiency of automatic fire from small arms by (24,2 + 19,5) / 19,5 = 2,24 times.

      From what distance does the bulletproof vest that holds 5,45x39 from a distance of 10 meters withstand 7,62x54 with a bullet weighing 8 grams, speed 895 m / s and a tungsten alloy core? And from what distance does the bulletproof vest withstand 6x39 (6 grams, 1000 m / s, tungsten core)?
      1. Droid
        Droid 4 July 2016 13: 46
        +1
        Quote: Operator
        hitting the limbs is not considered as not incapacitating the enemy

        Even as we consider. Try to run 500 m with a crushed thigh or shoot with a crushed shoulder. Yes, even just with a hole in the limb ...

        Quote: Operator
        Those. providing penetration of bulletproof vests of class 4 and 5, it is possible to increase the efficiency of automatic fire from small arms by (24,2 + 19,5) / 19,5 = 2,24 times.

        You can not.
        Quote: Operator
        From what distance does a bulletproof vest that holds 5,45x39 from a distance of 10 meters withstand 7,62x54 with a bullet weighing 8 grams, a speed of 895 m / s and a tungsten alloy core?

        The standard NATO armor plate with ESAPI plate holds an armor-piercing bullet from the SVD at point blank range.
        Quote: Operator
        And from what distance does the bulletproof vest withstand 6x39 (6 grams, 1000 m / s, tungsten core)?

        From any. There is no such cartridge.
      2. Operator
        Operator 4 July 2016 14: 59
        -1
        It’s not necessary to run with an injury to a limb even in an attack - lie down and cover with fire the actions of other fighters.

        What bullet of the SVD index holds the ESAPI plate at point-blank range and what will be the weight of an army body armor made up of such plates?

        I named the parameters of a hypothetical bullet (weight 6 grams, initial speed 1000 m / s, diameter 6 mm, core made of tungsten alloy). Any manufacturer of ceramic armor can evaluate its penetration.
      3. Droid
        Droid 4 July 2016 15: 32
        +1
        Quote: Operator
        It’s not necessary to run with an injury to a limb even in an attack - lie down and cover with fire the actions of other fighters.

        If the infantry lay down, then most likely it will not rise back to the attack. The attack is thwarted, the task is completed. And if she didn’t just lie down and was injured, then it’s even worse.
        Quote: Operator
        What bullet of the SVD index holds the ESAPI plate at point-blank range and what will be the weight of an army body armor made up of such plates?

        B-32. 13,6 kg for medium size with chest, dorsal and lateral plates. The area of ​​the chest is 7,5-8 square meters. dm.
        Quote: Operator
        I called the parameters of a hypothetical bullet

        Hypothetically, one can say anything. But not body armor with a chest plate of 32 sq.dm. no cartridge 6x39 with an initial 1000 m / s is not and is not expected.
      4. Operator
        Operator 4 July 2016 23: 26
        -1
        Armor-piercing incendiary bullet B-32 caliber 7,62 mm sample 1932 years - this is how you understand "the tradition of deep antiquity" (C). A steel core made of high-carbon tool steel U12 A or U12 XA is not what is needed for punching an ESAPI plate based on boron carbide with a thickness of about 10 mm and on a high modulus polyethylene lining of the sample 2004 years.

        The standard established that ESAPI provides protection against firing with an 7,62x54 cartridge with an armor-piercing bullet with a steel core. When asked if tungsten alloy core bullet protection is provided, ESAPI manufacturers and operators are silent like fish.

        It is known that bullets of calibers 12,7 and 14,5 mm with a tungsten core penetration up to two times higher than bullets with a steel core.

        The bulletproof vest weighing 13,8 kg is close to the limit (15 kg) for the average infantryman to move in it on the battlefield. A bulletproof vest weighing 27,6 kg is nonsense. Therefore, we can assume that even ESAPI will not be able to protect against bullets with an energy of more than 3000 J and a tungsten core.

        And if so, then the sheepskin with an 6-mm cartridge (having a proven prototype in the rifle SCR) is worth the candle.
      5. Droid
        Droid 5 July 2016 21: 50
        +1
        Quote: Operator
        Armor-piercing incendiary bullet B-32 caliber 7,62 mm model 1932 - this is how you understand the "deep tradition" (C).

        This is the reality given to us in sensations - the most common armor-piercing incendiary cartridge 7,62x54.
        Quote: Operator
        The standard established that ESAPI provides protection against firing with an 7,62x54 cartridge with an armor-piercing bullet with a steel core. When asked if tungsten alloy core bullet protection is provided, ESAPI manufacturers and operators are silent like fish.

        For comparison, the B-32 gives 80% penetration of a 2P armored plate 10 mm thick at a distance of 200 m, 7B4, with a core from VK8, - 500 m. The NATO armor keeps the B-32 at close range, therefore the 7B4 will keep, in the worst case scenario, 300 m, and most likely closer.
        According to the results of tests in the late 80s, when the main body armor Zh-85K B-32 penetrated 240 m, and 7B4 525 m, the adoption of 7B4 bullets was recognized inappropriate due to five times higher cost compared to the B-32. Even much higher, at that time, penetration did not pay back the high cost.
        Well, a little research on body armor ...

        In bulletproof bulletproof vests 6B3TM (11-12,5 kg) and 6B4 (10,4-11,5 kg), it takes 19-20% more time to overcome the obstacle course than without bulletproof vests. At the same time, 44-54% of the personnel are not able to overcome the fence, and 16-40% are the third step of the destroyed stairs. The time for crawling and running in bulletproof vests is increased by 7-30%. The time to complete the 6-km march was 35%, while 43% of the personnel at the end of the route were practically out of order, and the rest were so tired that it became impossible to continue the combat mission during the company tactical training.


        1. Body armor weighing 7 kg or more and body shielding of 40-60 square meters. dm. significantly reduces the maneuverability and other combat qualities of a fighter.
        2. As a result, bulletproof bulletproof vests are unsuitable for use in solving long-term combat missions with moderate and heavy physical exertion. Their use is limited to use in stationary or close conditions:
        -stable defense;
        - carrying out of the guard (security) service;
        -transportation in unarmored vehicles, etc .;
        In dismounted offensive operations, maneuvering defense, attacks from the depths, as well as during pace movements (march throws) - the use of bulletproof bulletproof vests is very limited due to a noticeable increase in the time for these actions and the rapidly appearing physical overwork.
        3. We can assume that when wearing bulletproof bulletproof vests, the time to perform various military operations related to the movement and movement of a soldier increases by 10-20%, and the efficiency of shooting from small arms is reduced by 15-30% compared with similar characteristics without bulletproof vests .
  • 4thParasinok
    4thParasinok 11 July 2016 21: 01
    0
    Quote: Operator
    I named the parameters of a hypothetical bullet (weight 6 grams, initial speed 1000 m / s, diameter 6 mm, core made of tungsten alloy). Any manufacturer of ceramic armor can evaluate its penetration.
    A spherical horse in a vacuum ... one cannot evaluate what does not exist, one can only assume that this may or may not be so. Such representations are called "mental anan * zm" and not otherwise.
  • Urri
    Urri 2 July 2016 20: 07
    0
    Testing is good, but Volmer's PP had many flaws. The store spring is a special occasion. Overheating of the barrel at the 3rd store, loosening the butt. MP-41 with a wooden butt like PPSh was a partisan dream, and was used mainly as a self-loading carbine. Shot single
    1. bunta
      bunta 2 July 2016 20: 55
      +1
      Quote: Urri
      The store spring is a special occasion.

      There was nothing to do with the spring in the store. The store, by the way, was from Schmeisser. The problem was the rearrangement of cartridges from a two-row arrangement in one row. The appearance of MP-41 among Soviet partisans is unlikely. And unfortunately I don’t know anything about the Romanian partisans.
  • Chtononibrator
    Chtononibrator 3 July 2016 17: 36
    0
    And again in the article is the myth of PPS in any bed factory. Already, there are documents on the network, which GKO factories issued a plan for PCA. Automotive, steam locomotive, machine tool, p
    about the production of torpedoes ... wow bed factories!
  • Bormanxnumx
    Bormanxnumx 4 July 2016 13: 13
    +1
    Quote: Operator
    The .300 Whisper cartridge with a V-MAX bullet weighing 7,4 grams and an initial speed of 724 m / s has a muzzle energy of 1870 J - twenty percent less than AK-47.

    The wear resistance of the 6-mm barrel can be increased by a multiple due to the use of the oval section barrel according to the Lancaster type.

    Dear Operator, finish juggling with numbers - the bulk of the cartridges 7,62 * 39 have shot energy up to 2080J, the difference between 2080 and 1870 is 10℅.
    Regarding the drilling of Lancaster, there are doubts that it will work normally at speeds below 1000m / s.
    1. Operator
      Operator 4 July 2016 13: 26
      0
      I gave the characteristics of not the most massive, but the most energetic (so to speak) versions of the equipment of the cartridges 7,62x39 and .300 Whisper.

      The overwhelming number of .300 Whisper cartridges is generally equipped with heavy subsonic bullets with no penetration, since the purpose of this cartridge is to use silencer shooting.

      The barrel with an oval drill has better wear resistance than rifling with an order of magnitude higher contact stresses. Reducing the friction of the bullet on the oval surface of the barrel can be achieved by coating the bullet with Teflon.
      1. Bormanxnumx
        Bormanxnumx 4 July 2016 13: 45
        +1
        If you are so principled, then let's take it honestly for a .300 cartridge of 7,4g bullet, speed 725 m / s Energy 1944J. The difference with our cartridge is from 2080J. 7℅, and if you take the 2208J indicated on Wikipedia. 12℅ So when comparing cartridges, you are a little juggling with numbers.
        Regarding drilling, which is an order of magnitude (10 times) more wear-resistant, tell me - why at the moment they perceive nothing more than a weapon incident?
        1. AK64
          AK64 4 July 2016 13: 56
          0
          why at the moment perceive nothing more than a weapon incident?

          IMHO - the price.

          And what do you think?
          1. Bormanxnumx
            Bormanxnumx 4 July 2016 14: 41
            +1
            If about the price of a bullet covered with these, like him, but I remembered - with Teflon, then yes :)) Regarding Lancaster's drilling, now technologically it is as simple as "five kopecks". It does not fit well with the current speeds and shape of bullets. Yes, and excellent accuracy, when shooting bullet for relatively large distances for a smoothbore (guns with this drill are classified as smoothbore) is not particularly observed.
            1. Operator
              Operator 4 July 2016 15: 04
              0
              Let it be 1944 and 2080 J.

              The thickness of the teflon coating of a bullet is two to three tens of microns. In the cost of a bullet, this will be reflected in several percent.

              I agree - the accuracy of firing from a helical barrel with an oval cross-section of a modern bullet with a relatively large elongation with a Teflon coating must be checked in practice.
            2. AK64
              AK64 4 July 2016 15: 24
              0
              If about the price of a bullet covered with these, like him, but I remembered - with Teflon, then yes :)) Regarding Lancaster's drilling, now technologically it is as simple as "five kopecks". It does not fit well with the current speeds and shape of bullets. Yes, and excellent accuracy, when shooting bullet for relatively large distances for a smoothbore (guns with this drill are classified as smoothbore) is not particularly observed.


              Actually, polygonal trunks in general.
              A bullet and steel can be for them (with a coating - but not deformable as it is today but in a pre-set shape).
              Friction will fall almost to zero, and accordingly the wear of the barrel. Bullet speeds will increase. Well and so on
        2. The comment was deleted.
      2. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok 26 July 2016 21: 33
        0
        Quote: Operator
        The overwhelming number of .300 Whisper cartridges is generally equipped with heavy subsonic bullets with no penetration, since the purpose of this cartridge is to use silencer shooting.

        nonsense again. .300 Whisper was created for one purpose - the creation of weapons for the civilian market based on the AP-15 and having a ballistics of 7,62x39. The whole alteration is to replace the barrel. Yes, it can be used with a silencer when using a heavy bullet, but this is not its main task, unlike the 300 AAC Blackout, of which it is a civilian version. Once again you messed up everything.
  • Bormanxnumx
    Bormanxnumx 4 July 2016 15: 48
    0
    Quote: Operator
    Let it be 1944 and 2080 J.

    We agree that they are almost equivalent, otherwise:
    The .300 Whisper cartridge is not suitable for infantry / rifle units due to its low initial speed and steep trajectory "- it hurts the eyes.
  • Bormanxnumx
    Bormanxnumx 4 July 2016 16: 17
    0
    Quote: AK64
    If about the price of a bullet covered with these, like him, but I remembered - with Teflon, then yes :)) Regarding Lancaster's drilling, now technologically it is as simple as "five kopecks". It does not fit well with the current speeds and shape of bullets. Yes, and excellent accuracy, when shooting bullet for relatively large distances for a smoothbore (guns with this drill are classified as smoothbore) is not particularly observed.


    Actually, polygonal trunks in general.
    A bullet and steel can be for them (with a coating - but not deformable as it is today but in a pre-set shape).
    Friction will fall almost to zero, and accordingly the wear of the barrel. Bullet speeds will increase. Well and so on

    The conversation about teflon and oval cutting was part of the discussion of the 6x49 cartridge with its high speeds at which gas erosion significantly affects the height of the barrel. And this moment is not treated with Teflon, chrome plating and oval-polygonal cutting of the barrel. The whole range of problems with such high-speed cartridges could be easily spied on the hill - they have been similar cartridges since the 30s. last century looming, and the exhaust except in hunting weapons can not be seen.
    1. 4thParasinok
      4thParasinok 26 July 2016 21: 48
      0
      Quote: BORMAN82
      The whole range of problems with such high-speed cartridges could be easily spied on the hill - they have been similar cartridges since the 30s. last century looming, and the exhaust except in hunting weapons can not be seen.
      I repeat once more: take an interest in 6,5x39 Grendel and 6,8 × 43 mm Remington SPC and for what reason they are still not used in army weapons. And lo and behold, it turns out that cutting the barrel and Teflon coating has nothing to do with it ... The first for economic reasons, and the second only because it came to the finish line second and eventually lost the competition. The durability and price of Amer trunks is completely arranged without Teflon.