“Let's write a truthful history textbook?” (Part One)

“I don’t understand one thing - write a truthful textbook on stories Is this such a big problem for Russia? Or nobody needs it? After all, they lie about everything, starting with the birth of the Slavic peoples. ”
(Ozhogin Dmitry)
"The dominance of liberals in power from the very top, in academic science, on TV, cinema, leaves no chance of objectivity of the textbook."
(There was a mammoth)
“The Bolsheviks introduced the 8 hourly working day, paid holidays and maternity leave for mothers. To you, as a fan of monarchism, I suggest that I get a job on my 10-12 hour-long working day, without holidays, with 1 days off. ”
(cast iron)

So, one of the TOPWAR site visitors poses the question: is it really so difficult to write a truthful textbook on the history of Russia? So that this question will never arise again, let's try ... well, not to write it together, but at least to present all the difficulties of such work. And then we have quite a few people who in historical science do not understand very much, but they believe that everything is easy there. “After all, history is not mathematics, everything can be learned there!” And that's not all!

I must say that this topic is very close to me personally for a number of reasons. First: I was born and raised in a large private house with a bunch of sheds, and my grandfather, who was awarded the Order of Lenin and the Badge of Honor, was the head of the city board, moreover, during the war years, thousands of refugees and children who had to be taught came to the city. Mom was a history teacher at school until she began teaching the history of the CPSU at the institute, and at home I had just a “bunch” of history textbooks for different years, starting from the 30s of the last century. At first I was attracted to them in pictures, then, somewhere from the 4 class, I began to read them and ... COMPARE! What is written in one, that in the other! Needless to say, this strange “hobby” led to the fact that I didn’t receive any grades on history in school except “5”, and was delegated to all historical Olympiads and competitions. But even then, and I studied from 1962 to 1972 a year, it struck me that many interpretations in textbooks are different! That facts appear and disappear ... Portraits of figures, too ... And this phenomenon was traced in the most vivid way. But the story itself does not change, I remember, I thought. So these changes have been made ... because someone wanted it so much ?! Or they were needed! But why?

I regret very much that later I became very stupid, I passed all these books into waste paper, although I continued to study well. The diploma for the state exam only one four - for scientific communism. Well ... this is about finding a black cat in a dark room, to put it briefly. I was asked why I believe that the world communist movement is the determining factor in the world today. And I answered: because the Communists are everywhere! “And are they in New Guinea?” “But where are they now?” I replied in a very bad tone, and almost didn’t work at all. But they put "4" and red diploma covered himself with a copper basin. Then, working on the books in the publishing house "Enlightenment", I found a lot of things in their library and ... refreshed it in my memory. If one of the readers of VO lives in Moscow and has a hunt, he can ask them there and ... read the most interesting history books of Russia and the USSR for different years. Perhaps, then he himself will try to write such a one, why not?

But back to our specific topic: a textbook of Russian history from ancient times to the present day. Can I write it so that it ... meets all the requirements, or rather, the requirements of ALL RUSSIANS? The answer is negative! Not! Not!! And no! Why? But why ...

Recently here at VO there was an article by one of the authors of the 12-volume history of the Second World War. I liked her very much. He laid out everything very carefully, and ... I immediately got on the Internet and opened the first volume that came across. Of course, “about Tanks"- what I know best. He opened, read the first paragraph and closed, and realized that I would never use this publication again! Why? The phrase met: “In 1944, the T-34/85 tank entered service, and it ... immediately ... improved,” and so on. I am sure that anyone who understands this at least a little will extend it further himself. But ... after all, this is not true! Why is it not true? But because the T-34/85 was put into service in a specific month of this year, and in a particular month it was at the front in a specific quantity on a specific sector of the front, and not immediately everywhere and on a massive scale. As, however, the German "Tiger" in the 43rd. That is, the level of generalization for me personally is extremely high! I would prefer the history of the Second World War by day. All 1418 days and descriptions of each day: how they fought, what they lost, what they destroyed, how many surrendered, how many prisoners were taken, what orders were issued, how many cows were transferred to the stew, how many, where, when, who? This really would be a work worthy of the memory of our people, who won the greatest war in the history of mankind. Does it exist? Open the Network - this is not! Moreover, it is clear that somewhere there is no information. Well, that’s how it would be necessary to write, “but there is no data”. Fair! In my opinion, this is the only possible approach to the disclosure of this topic.

Of course, this is better than the “multivolume history” of the Great Patriotic War in six volumes of the Soviet era, the preparation of which was started in 1957. However, the quality of this work may indicate at least such a fact: in its third volume Khrushchev mentioned 39 times, Stalin - 19, Zhukov - 4, and Hitler - 76! In 1966, the first volume of the History of the Second World War was released in 12 volumes (the latter appeared in 1982), but the same story repeated there: Brezhnev mentioned 24 times, Stalin - 17, Zhukov - 7, Vasilevsky - 4, Khrushchev - 7 and this is on ALL EDITION! Meanwhile, in the USA, the history of World War II was published in 99 volumes, and in Japan even in 110! But this was the "true Soviet time." “The generals determine that the Soviet people should know about the Great Patriotic War and what they should not,” wrote Nezavisimaya Gazeta 18.08.1991. 25 years passed, things seemed to change, but we still cannot jump above the 12 volumes.

And if this is the case with only one topic of our history, then ... what do you want, good citizens, from a GENERAL TEXTBOOK who would satisfy everyone and reconcile everyone? But it’s not even a matter of satisfaction (“you don’t ever give all the sisters anyway!”). And, above all, in the fact that we in historical science still do not have a precise understanding of what theoretical basis this textbook should be built on. What I mean? But the following: the economic foundation of society and how we will characterize it! Many remember that there was a primitive communal system, slaveholding, feudal, capitalism and socialism. Handsomely! Simply! Clear! But is it really true? There is another concept of the history of the development of society and it is based on the attitude to work, which, for example, seems to me more correct. At the same time, we will have a society of “natural coercion to labor” (primitive communal system), “non-economic coercion to labor” (slaveholding and feudalism combined, because they never existed in their pure form!) And “economic coercion to labor” (market relations) . And others have never been, and no - if you think about it, of course! Also in its own way beautiful and, most importantly, a logical scheme. But as far as the scientific community is ready to accept it, this is what is important. Not to mention the "masses", where awareness is at the wildest level of incompetence. And there is the theory of Malthus. By the way, nobody canceled it. And did not prove that it does not work! On the contrary, everything proves that it works very well. Interestingly, on its basis, we have published two textbooks on the history of the Ancient World and the Middle Ages of the Siberian historian S.A. Nefedova and read that one that the other as a novel. But further in relation to Russia ... it did not go further. And it's clear why, isn't it?

And if from the very beginning such “problems” have gone, then what will happen next?

And then we need to decide (for example, with the three above-mentioned problems, we somehow figured out!) What truthful sources of information we will use, taking into account the fact that they are beginning to study textbook on Russian history in 6 class in 13 years. It is clear that there are only three such sources: records, archaeological finds and ... data on haplogroups. Everything! There is no other way!

And now how to connect all this? Copy all the records in a row is unthinkable. There is a "Complete Collection of Russian Chronicles." So, give the husks? And immediately there is a problem, which has already been raised here at HE. "Knights, chained in battens, drowned in Lake Peipsi or not?" In this chronicle of this event is not! This is not the case in the article “Alexander Nevsky” in the newspaper Pravda, No. 356 for December 24, 1941, when it became patriotic to write about our heroic commanders. The author cites excerpts from the chronicles, ours and Germans, and they, these chronicles, have not changed, and have not found new ones! But he does not write about drowning! There is no such thing in Pravda on 5 on April 1942 for the anniversary, so to speak. And the number of dead? To count it according to the Livonian rhymed chronicle or according to our chronicles? In any case, this is bad, because in this way we are undermining children's confidence in the sources - the numbers are different!

I would trust the children: I would give both ours and the “Germans”, and explain why this happened. Otherwise, later, after school, the student reads a book ... of some newly-made Khrenenko, and it says there is "here is the truth." And the "bomb", while still small, will explode! So you need to explain? Everyone agrees with this? Yes? Not? And the volume of the textbook? To do it the way the English in the Osprey books do - first by the year of the event: their trip to us, ours to them ... and ... there will be a clear picture that we, too ... ... did not let anyone go. They are to us, we are to them, and vice versa. It is clear that life was like this, but this is children ... It is easy to conclude: “Our ancestors lived by robbery and robbery!” Maybe this conclusion? Completely! It is enough to compare the list of military campaigns of the old Russian state! And near hiking on us? And whose will be more? If they are - everything is clear. And if ours? Can this be explained to children? Yes you can! But not in the 6 class! And the expansion of the Russian Empire? “Mitralezes against sabers in Kokand”, “The Korenets” gunboat on the Yalu river ”,“ The sailors of the Baltic fleet are burning the Chukhon manor ”- these are all the pictures of our artists and photographs reflecting our life. Embed them in the textbook and explain? Or write ... how we were all offended, but we only gave the change, but themselves - no, no ...

However, all these questions are removed automatically if we make a SINGLE TEXTBOOK OF HISTORY and at the same time we will study the history of Russia in the global process. Here is the history of France, here is Germany, but Russia. Then - yes, it will immediately be seen that our ancestors were still very much “nothing”, and the princes, although they were poisoning each other and gouging out their eyes, but still not so fiercely, as in the same France “cursed kings”. But to do so is to change the whole curriculum! And then you have to rewrite ALL TEXTBOOKS! AND TRANSFER ALL TEACHERS!

To write about the grouse of barge haulers, what did I also write about here on HE? About the salary of officers and workers: ensign of the imperial army at the end of the 19 century - 25 p., Cool lady (without lessons) - 30 p., Turner of the first hand in 1902 at the Putilov factory - 40 ... "I lived in St. Petersburg, lived vodka and chewed bread, wore a threesome, boots started dancing in three legs ... "- the workers sang and ... V.I. Lenin in France - "nostalgia", however. But a three-piece suit could be bought for a worker from one paycheck, and also a accordion and ... get drunk - see Gorky's novel Mother. By the way, a gymnasium cap in 1905 cost 1 p. 50 cop Expensive! And two hens, plus heels of eggs, plus two buns, franzolki cost fifty dollars. A "troika", and boots bottles, and accordion? That is, not so workers and received little, and if they drank less, then ...

And now pay attention to the epigraph number 3. This also applies to the textbook, right? After all, if we begin to truthfully write about the heavy share of Russian peasants and workers, it turns out that the poverty of the former, and the latter, too, had its cause ... deep religiosity of those and others. There were so many holidays of pagan times, which later remained hidden, during which people did not work! For example, 24 of June celebrated Ivan Kupala under the cover of the day of John the Baptist, and on July 27 honored the holy martyr Panteleimon, and at the same time celebrated the summer solstice and, naturally, it was impossible to work these days. They honored Kirik's day (not to become crippled), Rusaliya (to atone for infants who died without baptism), St. Foki’s day (from fire), Simeon the Stylite’s day (so that the sky he supports does not fall to the ground), St. Nikita (for rabies), St. Procopius Day (against drought), St. Harlamp Day (against the plague), well, etc. Abundance of holidays was beneficial to whom? To the priests, because on holidays they were “carried” —which had five eggs, some had lard, some who were “little red,” so their reduction could not be considered.
The purpose of the peasant economy was to get food, not profit, although our peasants themselves were not at all as lazy and undeveloped as others say, otherwise they simply could not live. A different attitude to work, the “acquisition of wealth” seemed to them incompatible with the divine commandments, while the holiday was considered a godly deed! But the numbers that anyone can check by picking up a regular and church calendar:

BALANCE OF WORKING AND UNABLE DAYS IN THE MIDDLE 19 - THE BEGINNING OF 20 V.: 1850-ies. - 135 working days, non-working (total) - 230;
1872 g. - 125 working days, non-working (total) - 240; 1902 - 107, and 258! Accordingly, the holidays were 95,105 and 123!

Question: why the number of holidays increased? After all, church holidays no longer become? And the name of the sovereign emperor, empress empress and their family members, because the family grew! And it was all celebrated, so there were no vacations, and that’s why we worked 12 hours a day! Not all the same to celebrate, and once you have to work? And if in 1913, our peasants had as many days off as American “farmers” (as they were called in Russia at the beginning of the twentieth century), that is, 68 instead of 135, and the money that was spent on the feast on holidays would be in the economy, then it is our country for a few years would become a leading global agricultural power!

And here, in theory, we should all put it into a new history textbook. And what will be the conclusion? ROC is the main brake on the development of the Russian economy before 1917! I don’t think that its followers will have to like it, but this is because we are only at the beginning, as a matter of fact, of our textbook. And then it will be even more interesting and “worse” ... Although not all the archives are open today. For example, many military are again classified until the 2045 year. So personally I won't have to write anything on their basis!

(To be continued)

Comments

[Odysseus]

It is a priori impossible to write an "objective" history textbook for two reasons.
1) Any history textbook is written based on the current political order.
2) History is really not mathematics, and abstract truths and rules like two, two, four do not exist there. History is, by definition, subjective and the process of searching for truth in it is eternal.

[Nicholas C.]

Quote: Shpakovsky

there are only three such sources: annals, archaeological finds and ... data on haplogroups. All! There is no other!

Oh how! Ancient literature is no longer a source? And what about the inscriptions on the monuments? say, runic? etc. But the haplogroup "source" ... still the same.

There is a lot of casuistry, not on the point, apparently in order to "substantiate" that the author of a school textbook should be anyone. For example, here is such a character (in the picture there are quotes from his "speech" in the Yeltsin Center, link in the same place):

In our history, there are many blank spots and events that allow different, sometimes contradictory, interpretations. That's only Russian historians should interpret them, and not the characters on the other hand, waging a war against Russia, in this case the information one.

Quote: Shpakovsky

The Russian Orthodox Church is the main brake on the development of the Russian economy until 1917!

How did the church interfere with Catherine II, Alexandram and Nicholas? Many countries then developed as Russia did with them?
You yourself write about the giant salaries of workers then - and this is the main sign of the rapid development of industry.

Do you think Catholic gays and pedophiles would develop faster?
Or are you already bothering for the new rainbow sodomites?

[kalibr]

You read the material more carefully. Don't get excited. There is nothing about sodomites in the material. Or is it by type, who is talking about what, eh ... So don't! Moreover, it was in Western Europe, up to a certain point, that both were punished more seriously than in our country. Up to the death penalty. Look at a very interesting article in the magazine RODINA - "Any fornication happens." There is about different approaches to punishment for all the vices you named. Oscar Wilde was imprisoned for perversion, so then and today are two different things.

[Bloodsucker]

I read it.
Evaluation NEUD.
In your own words, you are pretty much in your own opus.
Now I listened to Channel 1, there Igor Tchubais was flowing, on account of the Great Patriotic War, you in your vision are no worse and no better than him, or rather, SAME.

Quote: kalibr

. That is, the level of generalization for me personally is extremely high! I would prefer the history of the Second World War by day. All 1418 days and descriptions of each day: how they fought, what they lost, what they destroyed, how many surrendered, how many prisoners were taken, what orders were issued, how many cows were transferred to the stew, how many, where, when, who?

THIS WILL NOT BE A TEXTBOOK, but a scientific MONOGRAPHY, the only question is who to entrust its writing with if Chubais, Mlechins and Svanidzas, Brewers and Teeth, then we will get out that the war was won by AMERICA, and the USSR was rushing around, or for land lease, why else is it how some ardent anti-Soviet writers write here.

Quote: kalibr

You read the material more carefully. Don't get excited. There is nothing about sodomites in the material. Or is it by type, who is talking about what, eh ... So don't! Moreover, it was in Western Europe, up to a certain point, that both were punished more seriously than in our country. Up to the death penalty. Look at a very interesting article in the magazine RODINA - "Any fornication happens." There is about different approaches to punishment for all the vices you named. Oscar Wilde was imprisoned for perversion, so then and today are two different things.

Different things?
Why would they be different?
Yes, a highly paid piece specialist from the workers received relatively enough, but is it a PIECE specialist, and the rest?
In the village, from year to year, the quinoa was eaten, while someone in Baden Baden had caviar in kilograms, OIL was enough, they were sent to Europe, and why was such a wildest infant mortality in the village?
Evaluating your article is NEUD.
Textbooks, even in the form that are shown more honestly than your speculation.
In a prosperous country, FEBRUARY revolutions do not happen just like that, with the demolition of the king by his own support, aristocracy, military, merchants, churchmen
and industrialists.

[Darkness]

And can you find out the number of scientists in the Russian Empire and Europe before the 18th century?

[WKS]

The fact that historians writing textbooks need to stop composing historical facts, as well as hush up real events, is undeniable. But the fact is that these people do not themselves publish what they wrote. Politically engaged state officials help them in this. So they are the main reason for distortion and silence. On the other hand, there are so many white spots in History that without fantastic assumptions it is impossible to comprehend it, therefore, how many people historians can have so many historical textbooks.

[Rivares]

Quote: Nikolai S.

How did the church interfere with Catherine II, Alexandram and Nicholas?

And so it interfered that kings for hundreds of years impeded the church in the struggle for power. Peter 1 forbade the election of a patriarch, and this lasted until the revolution) He in every way reformed the church in order to introduce bureaucratic control.

[Pavel1]

To do as the British do in the Osprey books - first by the years of the event: their trip to us, ours to them ... and ... there will be a clear picture that we, too ... did not give anyone a descent. They are to us, we are to them, and vice versa. It is clear that life was such, but these are children ... It is easy to conclude: “Our ancestors lived in robbery and robbery!” Maybe such a conclusion? Quite! It is enough to compare the list of military campaigns of the old Russian state!

Well, what list of "predatory" wars between Russia and Russia can you provide? If we consider not the weakly reliable past, when the dates of birth of princes and tsars are disputed, and the more or less foreseeable past for 200 years, can you name at least one war in which Russia would be the instigator and had predatory-plundering goals? Even campaigns to Central Asia were made after requests from local tribal rulers to appease the atrocities of that Kokand or Khiva, the same can be said about the war with the Turks in 1877-78, when Russia went to liberate the Slavs and itself did not acquire any territorial acquisitions from this war, i.e. ... the goals of war are the noblest. Well, as for the other wars, they always attacked us. Therefore, to inspire us with the idea that our ancestors were robbers is to sin against the truth ...

[kalibr]

This, as you yourself see, is about an old Russian state. And not about the last 200 years. You look at the exchange of campaigns with the same Kazan Khanate, the campaigns of Ivan the Third and the assessment of his actions by contemporaries.

[Pavel1]

Kazan Khanate? At that time there were almost no states and all kinds of possessions with blurred borders, so all sorts of skirmishes and small warriors a thousand on a thousand. Yes and that is described in such sources that you can read this way or that. Russia is the largest state in the world, could it become so if it subjugates possessions or, say, the habitats of small nations and tribes? The answer is clear.
The state can be considered a state when it can protect its land, if not, then you were devoured and history was rewritten. So it is not correct to use such cliches as "predatory war" for those times. However, if we consider history, as suggested by Fomenko and Nosovsky, i.e. the fact that there was one EMPIRE and all the lands were just the possession of one sovereign, and the wars on the outskirts were riots of dissent, then there was no "predatory war" at all ...

[Logos]

Yes, even if the predatory attack of Russia together with other European imperialist countries against China in 1901, as a result of which the imperialists imposed on China such indemnity that he would have to pay for centuries. And the largest share was to go to Russia. Along the way, Russia seized the Chinese lands - Manchuria and Port Arthur, while damaging the interests of another imperialist predator - Japan, which led to the Russo-Japanese war
About the invasion at the request of "local tribal rulers" - amused. This is as much a phony pretext as the US invasions of our time under the pretext of defending democracy. By the way, the United States also does not have territorial acquisitions from its warriors and claims to liberate peoples from dictators - do you agree with that? The theory of "liberation of the Slavs from the yoke" looks especially piquant in relation to the Russian-Turkish wars of the 18th century, when in Russia itself serfs were actually turned into slaves

[Alexey-74]

I agree, but it is necessary to step over political ambitions and create a normal, without a political color, believable textbook. Especially in parts of ancient Russia and the Middle Ages, when the foundation and identity of the Russian people was laid. We must be proud of our ancestors and proudly say that we are Russians !!! Patriotism must be brought up from school.

[sherp2015]

Quote: Alexey-74

We must be proud of our ancestors and proudly say that we are Russians !!!

Right now, the Zionis’s squeals will rise, accused of fascism

[kalibr]

Sure! We have a lot to be proud of, just as the French and British have something to be proud of. Each one looked from his own belfry and thought "it's better this way". He strove for happiness Russian, French, and why not be proud in this case? Your own, good ?! Another thing is that it is not necessary to elevate this to an absolute. Ah, we are "a new historical community of people" (with a shortage of toilet paper) and therefore - "better than all others." The latter was not openly stated, but implied. Some people still find it hard to part with it.

[Logos]

I agree, but it is necessary to step over political ambitions and create a normal, without a political color, believable textbook

This is completely impossible for the simple reason that History is not a simple listing of facts, it is interpretation these facts, which is directly tied to the worldview and interests of the social group to which these facts are interpreted. Those. any historical textbook will be a priori biased and politically one-sided

[Aleksander]

Quote: Odyssey

An objective "history textbook to write, a priori,

For everyone has their own truth and their own justice.

[Pavel1]

Quote: Aleksander

Quote: Odyssey

An objective "history textbook to write, a priori,

For everyone has their own truth and their own justice.

there are not many truths, the truth is always one ...

[ver_]

.. each person has his own truth, Truth is one for all.

[Kurasava]

The truth is ALWAYS one!

[Aleksander]

Quote: Odyssey

An objective "history textbook to write, a priori,

For everyone has their own truth and their own justice.

[Odysseus]

Quote: Aleksander

For everyone has their own truth and their own justice.

The truth is one, it’s just hard to understand. For it is very difficult to understand the meaning of actions and one person (this is the science of psychology), and to understand the meaning of all people's actions in their interaction (which is history) is not a trivial task at all ...
But we are talking about something else, the author writes not about historical research, but about textbook .And they have always been used as a tool for the formation of consciousness among young people. That is, even the degree of approximation to the truth that can be achieved in historical research cannot be achieved here for political reasons.

[oking]

Quote: Odyssey

It is a priori impossible to write an "objective" history textbook for two reasons.

One by one. Because objectively you can only describe something scientific. And history is a "science" of the type of "scientific communism", "the history of the CPSU" or "the political economy of socialism."
Those. there is no such science "history". None of the countries. Doesn't exist in principle.
But it is used by the authorities as an instrument of influence on the masses. In totalitarian countries more. In democratic, less. But used everywhere. And everyone can make an instrument (in this case, an impact) what is more convenient for him.

[Odysseus]

Quote: oking

One by one. Because objectively you can only describe something scientific. And history is a "science" of the type of "scientific communism", "the history of the CPSU" or "the political economy of socialism."
Those. there is no such science "history". None of the countries. Doesn't exist in principle.

Dear verboo, I am glad that you logged in and took my advice not to start right away with Tsushima and the Russo-Japanese War. Remember one of the last nicknames you absolutely shocked me with having arranged a terrible rout to Peter 1. I did not quite understand what he did not please you - Tea is not a Stalinist, but you knowingly cursed))
I will follow up on your impressive work)))

[sherp2015]

Quote: Odyssey

It is a priori impossible to write an "objective" history textbook for two reasons.
1) Any history textbook is written based on the current political order.

History is written and rewritten by order of the rulers

[Mother CheeseEarth]

Quote: Odyssey

It is a priori impossible to write an "objective" history textbook for two reasons.

Anything is possible if we take into account that the "communist ideology" had nothing to do with an objective and scientific understanding of the surrounding world.
Here's how to understand it, so at once the "objective textbook" will turn out, where instead of "proletarian revolution" they will write "political terrorism of radical Marxists."

[Darkness]

Naturally, only the imperial Orthodox truth Tsar has the right to exist!

[Mother CheeseEarth]

Quote: Darkness

only imperial Orthodox truth Tsar, has the right to exist

How naive and predictable you are!
In your world, if I write "that people lived better under the tsar than under the Bolsheviks," then I am necessarily a monarchist ?!
Funny, by golly, I'm more than an apolitical person. Just because of the education, I have both ideas and interest in what society is like yesterday and today.

[Darkness]

Undoubtedly, under the tsar they lived better than under the Bolsheviks. 2% of the population. Now they live as better than under the Bolsheviks.

[Mother CheeseEarth]

Quote: Darkness

Undoubtedly, under the tsar they lived better than under the Bolsheviks. 2% of the population

No. Under the king, everyone lived better. Even, damn it, the Bolsheviks lived better under the tsar than under the Bolsheviks.
After all, they were engaged in economic terrorism (expropriation) and did not deny themselves anything between the "walkers": alcohol, drugs and girls in elite apartments, this is how the bulk of the Bolsheviks lived before the "revolution".

[Darkness]

And can you find out where you live now?
Where did your parents live?
Are you writing now under the torch or are you using electricity?

[Heimdall47]

Quote: Darkness

Are you writing now under the torch or are you using electricity?

Did your grandfather use a computer at home during the Soviets? And you probably use it.
And this is because a home computer is now the norm, but not with the Soviets.
Also a splinter with a kerosene. Under Tsar Nicholas - this is the norm, but under Khrushchev - not.
And this is not because the Bolsheviks are progressive, and Tsar Nikolai is not - time has changed.

[Mother CheeseEarth]

Quote: Heimdall47

a home computer is now the norm, but not with the Soviets.

Is the norm now a computer in such countries as North Korea, Cuba, or at least China. No, not the norm!
Therefore, time is time, but if it weren’t for Gorbachev, then under the Communists we now sat in the main part without computers.

[EvgNik]

Quote: Mother CheeseEarth

if it weren’t for Gorbachev, then under the Communists we now sat in the bulk without computers.

Was a state personal computer the norm in 1987? I had, inferior, weak, but I was. Moreover, the Soviet. And many of my friends had a PC. So do not flog the nonsense.

[Kurasava]

It is as if even in Germany not everyone has ... yes yes yes))) It’s expensive to read your comments, what class have you already moved to?

[Cat man null]

Quote: Heimdall47

it’s not because the Bolsheviks are progressive, and Tsar Nikolai is not — time has changed

Have you heard about the GOELRO plan when a thread? So, in the picture below - the result of its implementation (very briefly, you can still). For 10 years (1917 - 1927)

- the number of power plants increased by 11.4 times
- electricity consumption - 16 times

Has time changed? Only?

[Heimdall47]

Quote: Cat Man Null

- the number of power plants increased by 11.4 times
- electricity consumption - 16 times

Has time changed? Only?

Time dictates its own norms. And if the Bolsheviks built power plants in large numbers with one hand, and the peasantry was ruined with the other, this does not mean that tsarism, if it had survived to the 20s, would not in turn develop the corresponding industries. And I’m absolutely sure that he would do it in much more humane ways. Let it be slower, but more thoroughly and without robbery and murder of its own population.
Again - the benefits are imposed from above. I am sure that the peasantry of tsarist Russia had absolutely no electricity. And what for us now is a light in the window was then perceived by the majority of the population as bullshit.

[Cat man null]

Quote: Heimdall47

this does not mean at all that tsarism, if it had survived to the 20s, would not in turn develop the corresponding industries

- history does not know the subjunctive accrual (s)

Quote: Heimdall47

I am sure that the peasantry of tsarist Russia had absolutely no electricity. And what for us now is a light in the window, was then perceived by the majority of the population as bullshit

- but, nevertheless, it was thanks to this "bullshit" that the foundation was laid for the industrialization of the country, no?
- The fruits of which industrialization we still use, no?

Quote: Heimdall47

Again - the benefits are imposed from above ...

- global transformations are always carried out "from above"
- to build at least one hydroelectric power station "from below" - don't make me laugh, please ...

That's something like

[Heimdall47]

Quote: Cat Man Null

- history does not know the subjunctive accrual (s)

Does not know. But it’s also foolish to compare the number of power plants under the Bolsheviks and the tsar — ​​different time periods and completely different outlooks on life.
Here you can compare the amount of grain produced. And electricity in everyday life is the know-how of that time and it is quite natural that somewhere it was not there.
If I did not have Internet at home about 6 years ago, this does not mean that I felt worse than now, when I have Internet.

Quote: Cat Man Null

- but, nevertheless, it was thanks to this "bullshit" that the foundation was laid for the industrialization of the country, no?
- The fruits of which industrialization we still use, no?

Yes. Thanks to them. But here it is also worth saying that the communists did not carry out industrialization out of concern for the welfare of the people. They were baking about their ass - they sensed that they would soon grab her. Industry was required for the army, which was necessary for the Bolsheviks to protect their thieves' power.

Quote: Cat Man Null

- global transformations are always carried out "from above"
- to build at least one hydroelectric power station "from below" - don't make me laugh, please.

Let it go

[Cat man null]

Quote: Heimdall47

Industry was required for the army, which was necessary for the Bolsheviks to protect their thieves' power

- emotions, emotions ... The army defended the country and its people first of all, and only then the power

Quote: Heimdall47

But it’s also foolish to compare the number of power plants under the Bolsheviks and the tsar — ​​different time periods and completely different outlooks on life

- about "outlook on life" - completely in the hole. IMHO, tsarist Russia was not capable of such a "big leap". Precisely because of the "outlook on life" and a certain ...
- I am not "comparing the number of power plants". I'm talking about the fact that over the past decade the country has changed ... well, just beyond recognition. And we "feed" the fruits of these changes to this day

Somehow

[Heimdall47]

The army defended the country and its people above all

This usually happens in any state, but so rarely did anyone set their own country as cancer — even Peter 1.

IMHO, tsarist Russia was not capable of such a "big leap".

They ride on the Maidan, and there was no need to ride Tsarist Russia. She did not plan permanent world revolutions, but rather successfully and harmoniously developed in an evolutionary way. Yes, somewhere behind other countries, but remaining at the same time a great power and not letting tens of millions of its citizens into the graves during crazy experiments.

I'm talking about the fact that over the past decade the country has changed ... well, just beyond recognition. And we "feed" the fruits of these changes to this day

We also "feed" on the destroyed village, which for centuries has been an inexhaustible source of a healthy Russian population. The Bolsheviks were able to exhaust this deep source and now our streets are filled with foreigners.
Over in Moscow today 200 Muslims came out. How could such a thing have been under the king? The absurdity and the fruit of international power.
We are "fed" on abortions, moral degradation of the population, etc.
Industrialization is good, but it will be used by peoples successfully multiplying and having strong moral foundations. The modern Russian people "thanks" to the Bolsheviks no longer belong to those.

[Cat man null]

Quote: Heimdall47

...

Sweat, blood, sand, dung and girlish tears ... the Bolsheviks, it turns out, are to blame for the fact that in Moscow today Uraza 200K Muslims celebrate ... mdya ... as much as 1.7% of the population !!!

Really it's scary

Okay, I seem to understand you:

- everything is bad, and #we are
- the bonds are undermined, the roots are chopped off, and all this (censorship) of the Bolsheviks
- if it weren’t for the Bolsheviks, everything would have been different (I agree. If something had happened at all, it would have been different)

Actually, there is nothing more to say ... You are free to sigh about "how it would be if". I'm more interested in people who think about how to live now and survive further. With the initial conditions that we have today.

Best regards,

[Heimdall47]

Quote: Cat Man Null

Sweat, blood, sand, dung and girlish tears ... the Bolsheviks, it turns out, are to blame for the fact that in Moscow today Uraza 200K Muslims celebrate ... mdya ... as much as 1.7% of the population !!!

What are you talking about? I just listed the dry facts of the results of the Bolsheviks' activity - not only positive (which you like), but also negative.
But for some reason you think that listing the latter is my stormy emotions. But there are no emotions - one bare truth.
No one sighs about anything. Just, if for 70 years we were ruled by thugs and thieves, then we need to know about this firmly, and not cover it with blessed chants about industrialization and the flight of man into space.
That's all.

[oking]

Quote: Heimdall47

time has changed.

Absolutely.
But the Bolsheviks came up with a tricky thing. They all compared with the level of the Russian Empire in 1913. Which in itself smacks of cheating.
It would be more correct to compare the ratio of RI and, for example, the USA in 1913. And then, for example, the USSR and the USA in 1940. And already on the basis of these data to draw some conclusions.
But in this case, a complete failure would become obvious. And everyone would immediately understand the flaw in "socialism". Therefore, the shulerski compared everything with RI in 1913. As if the development of human civilization is an empty phrase.

[Mother CheeseEarth]

Quote: Darkness

Are you writing now under the torch or are you using electricity?

Tell you how much Kilowatt was produced under Dzhugashvili and how much in the USA at the same time?
And how many cars at that time were in the USA, and how many cars were under Dzhugashvili?

[Uncle Murzik]

So you compare the number of cars in the tsarist army and in the French by 1917

[Kurasava]

Hey mother t ..... u land. You go, go to WEEKPadia. Look at the cars then. Enlighten.

[demo]

History, in the broad sense of the word, is facts and events.
But the assessment of these facts and events in history should not be relevant.
Due to the bias of the views of any textbook compiler.
Therefore, reasoning about the impossibility of writing a textbook on the history of Russia, Russia, the Russian Empire is nothing more than an excuse.
It is necessary to remove any comments from the textbooks.
Only events and facts.
And for the curious, let them write comments.
As comments on the Criminal Code or the Customs.
There are no comments in the articles of these Codes?
So what?
It is not clear how to use them?

[Lazy ozzy]

“Let's write a true history textbook?”
A good idea, but I think it is not feasible, that is, utopian. History is a science (?) Thoroughly politicized, often serving to "clarify the current moment to the ochlos". Any ruler "sharpens" it for himself. The only "correct" textbook will be an event / date without any interpretation, but it will no longer be a textbook, but a reference book.

[EvgNik]

Any humanitarian science is subjective. Take the literature. What a great writer Leo Tolstoy was hammering at us at school. I didn’t like him. And now I like it. This is my opinion, apparently in history.
Thanks Vyacheslav - raised an interesting topic.

[Darkness]

Dostoevsky is disgusting to me, but this does not cancel his merits.

[EvgNik]

Quote: Darkness

Dostoevsky is disgusting to me, but this does not cancel his merits

Lev Nikolaevich is not disgusting to me, just like Dostoevsky, they are simply hard to read and not particularly interesting.

[a housewife]

Personally, I reread War and Peace eight times. Whoever likes what is subjective.

[a housewife]

Personally, I reread War and Peace eight times. Whoever likes what is subjective.

[kalibr]

Good morning, Evgeny Nikolaevich! If you saw those mountains of textbooks that were at my disposal in childhood and a little later ... How do I scold myself for eliminating them, although on the other hand, but where would I keep it? I don't even have a basement in my apartment, and the dacha appeared three years ago. And most of all I liked the textbooks for evening or "shift" schools. More serious than for ordinary schoolchildren! By the way, here again many people write about the "order" and "pressure" on historians. When I tried to write my history textbook Cf. there was no "order" for centuries. I was just shown how many shortcomings of a purely methodological plan are in it. And they said - an excellent book for reading, but to become a textbook - it is necessary, necessary, necessary ... There are so many "necessary" that it was easier to make a "book for reading" and now it is inserted into the school curriculum and is in the list at the end of the textbook on the history of the Middle Ages publishing house "Enlightenment".

[EvgNik]

Good afternoon, Vyacheslav Olegovich. I also lost a lot of books, but no longer my fault. After my father, there remained the collected works of Stalin and Plekhanov, after my mother retired - a lot of textbooks and manuals on geography (she kept geography at school), while I was in the army everything was thrown out or destroyed. Now too sorry, there were unique books.
And the Middle Ages is a safe topic for our politicians - they don’t bother much. And in order for a book to become a textbook, one must be one in the circle that decides to be or not to be a textbook.

[Mother CheeseEarth]

Quote: EvgNik

Any humanitarian science is subjective.

Any science is as objective as possible, and social sciences as well.
But people who have been drummed into their heads for decades with the "foundations of communism" that has nothing to do with science will probably never understand this.

[EvgNik]

Quote: Mother CheeseEarth

But people who have been drummed into their heads for decades with the "foundations of communism" that has nothing to do with science will probably never understand this.

Where are we, the wise and wretched. Here you are - wow! Uma chamber.

[Rurikovich]

The topic, of course, is interesting ... +
In terms of chronology, history is more likely to be mathematics, especially calculating everything that was before Peter I. This time. Two - everything is relative and this applies not only to today, but also to the times of the beginning of the century. For example. And if with a normal salary for the St. Petersburg worker he did not have the opportunity to buy a telly, save for a car or for a trip to the Canary Islands, he only had to indulge in joys with easy-going girls or drink chat in taverns. Indeed, the sound of coins or the rustling of notes in his free time always leads to bad thoughts in his head. It is always necessary to consider any problem in the complex, then the reasons for certain actions will become clear. Be it faith, drunkenness, or many weekends.
We look forward to continuing!
PS Argumented opinion is always interesting

[ver_]

At the same time, Peter destroyed the library of John the Terrible, dying out a lot in church books, cut down historical frescoes in temples,
Cathedral of St. Ivan the Terrible = St. Basil’s Cathedral turned into St. Basil’s Cathedral, with him hired foreigners wrote the history of the Russian state ..

[Rurikovich]

I cited it as an example only because only since then has the chronology been more or less intelligible
Personally, I am inclined to believe that Perth the First was an impostor. Personally, I am convinced of this by the "reforms". Anyway, this whole mess began with the Romanovs And the destruction of cathedrals, and the knocking down of frescoes, and the rewriting of real history. And from the Romanovs a "new" history of Russia began., Already without chronological shifts.
Personally, my opinion

[V.ic]

"There are no comrades for taste and color" / Russian proverb /. Historian M.N. Pokrovsky wrote: "History is politics overturned into the past." What policy = such and textbooks. Great Stalin = the leader of all times and peoples / under Stalin (and deservedly so!) /. Stalin's personality cult / under "dear Nikita Sergeevich Khrushchev" /. Who do they want to educate students / patriots or cosmopolitans? /, Such will be the textbook. Fish, as you know, rots from the head ... and this truth has a direct and immediate relation to the society called "scattered".

[kalibr]

She (this truth) is directly related to any society.

[Lazy ozzy]

Not regarding the article, so to speak a question for connoisseurs - why the hell did the British flag appear to me ?! Siberia has already been occupied, I don’t know what?

[igordok]

Quote: LazyOzzy

Not regarding the article, so to speak a question for connoisseurs - why the hell did the British flag appear to me ?! Siberia has already been occupied, I don’t know what?

Do not go to VO from a mobile phone, and you will be happy. Alas, the costs of technology.

[EvgNik]

Quote: igordok

Do not go to VO from a mobile phone, and you will be happy.

That's for sure. I have 10 on the tablet, so the Romanian flag comes from it.

[inkass_98]

My dear father, this is all garbage .. The main thing is not to repeat the fate of Litvinenko and Berezovsky under this flag .

[Lazy ozzy]

Quote: igordok

Quote: LazyOzzy

Not regarding the article, so to speak a question for connoisseurs - why the hell did the British flag appear to me ?! Siberia has already been occupied, I don’t know what?

Do not go to VO from a mobile phone, and you will be happy. Alas, the costs of technology.

No, I'm at home at the computer in my underpants and with beer (maybe this somehow influences?)

[ver_]

..this cowards affect - not that system - take off ..

[Titsen]

Who dines on a girl dances her!

[satellite24]

we have officially accepted the history written off from the church record! - but there is also a civil record, and it is very different from the history of the Russian Orthodox Church!

[aleks700]

An objective "history textbook is, a priori, impossible to write

Maybe. Only in schools and universities will he not enter. In bookstores maybe.

[Odysseus]

Quote: aleks700

Maybe. Only in schools and universities will he not enter. In bookstores maybe.

Even in this case, no. Here, imagine that the textbook on the history of the USSR is written by respected Alexander Romanov and no less respected Alexander Samsonov. How do you think they will be objective? You and I will receive two completely different stories. The bottom line is that the author himself, even in the absence of a direct political order, has some kind of political bias and subjective assessments. You can only strive for objectivity, but you cannot fully achieve it.

[Mangel olys]

History is an art gallery with few originals and many copies.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Today, an artificial historical memory triumphs everywhere, erasing the real memory of people and erasing people from their own memory. A single textbook on the history of indivisible Russia is a step of despair when there is no hope of developing a positive ideology.

[kalibr]

Quote: Mangel Olys

this is a step of despair

You said it well ...

[alebor]

This is not a step of despair, but an attempt to avoid "Babylonian pandemonium" and "schizophrenia". The interpretation of history is always subjective, it cannot be different in principle. (The rules of grammar are also subjective, but what if in different schools they teach different Russian grammar, with different spelling, and maybe even with different alphabets?). The official story is always mythological. This is a kind of synthesis of "objective academic history" with literature and philosophy. But the official history is the basis of national identity. There is a single history - there is a single nation. There are many different, contradictory interpretations of history - a single nation becomes a herd or, as in a fable, "a swan, a crab and a pike." A well-known phrase is attributed to Bismarck that the Prussian teacher won the Franco-Prussian war. (According to another version, this phrase was said by another person about the victory over Austria at Sadovaya). But whoever said it, he is absolutely right. History is the most important part of national identity. And if a nation has many different "self-consciousnesses" at the same time, it will not survive such "schizophrenia", it will not be doomed to decay. There can and should be many opinions and points of view of historians, there should be many "good and different" books on history, but the school history textbook should be one!

[Ajevgenij]

Very accurate thought. I can give an example from a slightly different field, but it is also connected with history. For example, the preservation of architectural heritage. The vast majority of people go to stare at a la Palace of Tsar Alexei Mikhailovich - the wooden royal palace (Kolomenskoye)., Although this is a vulgar props. It is served as a story. For this, many buildings of avant-garde constrictivism of the 20s-30s are completely ignored. Almost no one knows about them, much less any value is attached. Although this is still a real, authentic story, the phenomenon of avant-garde constructivism is a world phenomenon, recognized, oddly enough, throughout the world.


For this very accurately shows our perception of history.

[inkass_98]

The topic is complex and quite sharp. But as for me, yes, it is necessary to completely change the course of teaching history in schools and universities. And one more thing: we must return to the Soviet scheme of teaching and presenting material, eliminating party husks from there and assigning the party the role that it really played in the history of the country.
Well, textbooks should be written clearly without the help of Nezavisimaya Gazeta and KMK. And Messrs. Fomenko, Nosovsky and others like them to leave to fans of alternative fiction.
Well, Mr. Shpakovsky’s relations with the Russian Orthodox Church and the Emperor will be left to his conscience. Although this can be used: after all, even in Soviet times, the history textbook was not uniform: there were editions of Grekov, Pokrovsky, Rybakov, etc. etc., for an amateur, in short.
Well, about historians / philosophers as types: Vyacheslav here is trying to tell us something about the methodology, "who are the judges?", In the sense - who will write? For example, one of my teachers was a war veteran, doctor of sciences, participated in the writing of the 12-volume edition about the Second World War, so unloved by Vyacheslav, apparently. A normal, adequate man who never changed his views. His son, also a doctor of sciences for a long time, a whole vice-rector of the university is a rare bastard as a person (it was business, I did not fill his face for a little for his amorous affairs with students during the session, the benefit was late to know about this from his wife, she had already surrendered everything and left for our then place of residence), hesitated along with the party’s general line.
Another teacher, who worked in the field of philosophy, once during the lecture watered for a long time slops of the CPSU (for a year it was either 89, or the very beginning of 90, I don’t remember), and then apologized and ran away from the lecture - he urgently needed Party fees to pay.
And the fourth type, from the department of pre-revolutionary Russian history (already deceased) was a fiery democrat, an angry accuser and a scavenger of ulcers. But then the GKChP suddenly happened. And this comrade ran around the corners and worried about his future, when they would put him to the wall for the work done.
And which of them would you entrust with writing a textbook? I would definitely bet on the old Soviet historian.
It’s still sadder with today's experts, because a huge part of people writing textbooks work out an order, write what is said and watered with shit or whitewash those faces and periods of our history to which they are indicated.
Sorry for the emotions, but somehow boiled.

[Million]

History should reflect only facts and not be politicized!

[atos_kin]

I would suggest including events that occurred 50 years earlier than the release date of the textbook, but no later. Politicization will be less.

[Heimdall47]

Quote: Million

History should reflect only facts and not be politicized!

I support. Only dry facts from various sources, plus a summary of the most common theories that explain this fact.
For example, in 1937, so many Soviet citizens were destroyed / imprisoned.
And the possible reasons are
a) Stalin is a villain;
b) Stalin is a handsome man, Yezhov is a villain.
c) All well done - they planted whoever is needed.
etc.
There, the child himself will figure out which version is close to him and at home his parents will tell their vision. The teacher can tell the student the necessary sources if that interests him and he wants to understand the matter more deeply.
It would be useful to write essays where the student himself chooses the position with which he evaluates a specific historical fact.
And blowing a student’s ears about the progressive essence of socialism (capitalism) in the classroom is an empty matter.

[Vladycat]

A true story textbook? Utopia is Comrades. She has already been copied so much, changed and so on, that she herself has already forgotten what she is? "We are deeply lying in history" Martirosyan. Let's better make a textbook that makes children proud of our country, and not a feeling of inferiority. Let it be a little embellished, let the libirasts shout about propaganda, but this will be the foundation of our future.

[kalibr]

Karamzin said: “The historian must rejoice and grieve with his people. ... Only in this way will he become a national chronicler than what, first of all, a historian should be. ” And it would be strange to object to this. That is, you are right in the sense of

Quote: Vladycat

a little embellished

... How else to "rejoice". But ... here the MAIN WORD - A LITTLE. And "a little" is a stretched concept. And what if someone has a desire here ... to "add", and here ... to "strengthen". In each specific case, there will be a little, but in general ... in general, there will be "overkill" and then someone will certainly take advantage of this. That is, the measure needs to be extremely tough, and it's very difficult to comply with it, isn't it?

[Darkness]

We are for all the good, against all f.ni?

[Darkness]

Religion has always slowed down science, somewhere more, somewhere less.

[Riv]

Amazing naivety. Well, this is what it is: "... a worker received a salary of 40 rubles ..." What kind of worker? They are different. Vanka Besfamilny, who was shot in the Lena mines in 1905 for daring to demand that he pay him six rubles detained for six months (the strike arose precisely because of such sums), does not agree.

After all, the author does not seem to understand what history is. Here to lick, here to comb, here to tell that our princes "were no worse" - and where is the story? She's not just a collection of facts and theses. How many specific times must Stalin and Hitler be mentioned in a textbook for him to define a textbook as good? Should Roosevelt and Churchill be mentioned more often? And how well-grounded is the approach to the textbook from a statistical point of view?

Heresy, in short. If a person is taught to think, then he will be able to find the necessary information and treat it critically. Logic must be studied at school, and above all else. Then Fomenki will cease to start.

[kalibr]

A child cannot, and logic is taught only in high school! There is such a science, developmental psychology ...

Vanka Besfamilny, who was shot at the Lena mines in 1905 for daring to demand that he pay him six rubles detained for six months (the strike arose precisely because of such sums), does not agree. - Then it will be an article on the study of the level of wages of different workers in Russia. It is clear that the most indicative figures were taken. And ... it was not for nothing that Gorky's "Mother" was mentioned - did Gorky know what he was writing?

[Riv]

And under Stalin, logic was taught in high school and the children coped with it somehow. Apparently, then, people did not know anything about age-related psychology, and I was somehow not drawn to be sad about this.

The problem is that everyone who criticizes the current textbooks is a product of the same system. Criticizing is easy. Something really is much more difficult to do, because the textbook should cause a minimum of criticism and the less it is, the simpler the textbook. You can write an awesome article about the Battle of Kursk, fit into one page, but a million dissatisfied will come and your article will go to waste. Hence the spiral development of dialectics: a textbook is simpler, schoolchildren are dumber, criticism is dumber, textbook is even simpler ...

But Gorky was generally a proletarian class writer and his works are extremely subjective.

[V.ic]

Quote: kalibr

Vanka Nameless, who was shot at the Lena goldfields in 1905

Claim to date: Lena was shot in 1912

[Riv]

Sorry, memory fails. Of course, in the 12th.

[kalibr]

Agree that a textbook will be strange where Hitler is mentioned more often than Stalin? Or are German generals named by name, but ours are not? Is it really not clear that the principle is important, and not the number of references?

[Mother CheeseEarth]

Quote: Riv

shot for the fact that he dared to demand to pay him six rubles detained for six months (the strike arose precisely because of such amounts)

Cool! But 2 questions!
1. He was definitely shot for duty, or for the fact that he shot at the proud with a pistol during the "strike"?
2. Was his requirements generally legal? And then maybe they didn’t pay him extra for drunkenness, but did he get drunk when he confesses to his vices ?!

[Riv]

During the Lensky execution, the guards shot unarmed workers. The mass creation of the labor squads by the Bolsheviks and Socialist-Revolutionaries was still far away.
And since the workers ’appearances at the mines were precisely massive, it is hardly necessary to speak about violations of labor discipline. Not all drunkards.

[Mother CheeseEarth]

Quote: Riv

During the Lensky execution, the guards shot unarmed workers. The mass creation of the labor squads by the Bolsheviks and Socialist-Revolutionaries was still far away.

You do not tell me Bolshevik tales, better teach a story.
You will learn, for example, how "workers' squads" (almost 100% consisted of UNEMPLOYED) initiating "speeches" threw smelly bombs into the workshops or simply, under pain of weapons, took people out into the street, shooting those who, in their opinion, were "not loyal enough to the revolutionary movement"!

[Riv]

What a mess in your head! Smelly bombs ... The executions are not loyal enough ... Who told you all this?

[Darkness]

Solzhenitsyn. Such speak only truth !!!

[Cat man null]

Quote: Riv

Smelly bombs ..

- well, at least not "dirty", and that's good already

Quote: Riv

Who told you all this?

- training manual. IMHO

[V.ic]

Quote: Mother CheeseEarth

they took people out into the street, shooting those who, in their opinion, were "not sufficiently loyal to the revolutionary movement"!

Did General Pavel Karlovich Rennenkampf have softer educational methods? Working blood was shed in January 9, 1905 in a much more powerful stream than from the actions of militants in Moscow.

[kalibr]

And with the Bolsheviks, have they never shot at an unarmed people?

[goose]

Quote: Riv

They are different.

About that there is documentary evidence. The most eloquent - on the construction of warships, as the highest high-tech of those times. Highly skilled workers were no more than 10%, and they could receive a salary ten times higher than ordinary workers.
That is why the ships took a long time to build - there were very few skilled workers, and they were a constant "bottleneck". At the same time, the excessive concentration of the labor force in several large cities caused unnecessary competition among workers for jobs, which contributed to extremely low wages and difficult working conditions in the bulk. The concentration of the labor force was several times higher than even Germany and England, the economic champions of those times.
Doesn't it remind you of modern Moscow, and millionaire cities on a smaller scale? The same negative distortions in the economy as now, the same reasons and conditions of the times of "wild" capitalism.

[Riv]

This was not told at the history lessons in Soviet schools, but one of the most combat-ready Kolchak units was regiments recruited among the workers of Izhevsk and Ural arms factories. Indeed: a fraction of the state money from military orders fell to them. The master could receive a hundred rubles a month. So the Bolsheviks did not need them at all, and there was not even any talk of any proletarian solidarity.

[Mother CheeseEarth]

Quote: Riv

So the Bolsheviks did not need them at all, and there was not even any talk of any proletarian solidarity.

Gold words! And how is the RSDLP decrypted? how working the consignment. But the workers did not support her, they themselves admitted!
And who supported her? And the unemployed and landless supported her! Your Communists were the party of homeless people, if you translate into today's terminology.

[V.ic]

Quote: Mother CheeseEarth

And how is the RSDLP decrypted? Like a working party.

Well, how many workers were among the delegates of the 1st Congress of the RSDLP in 1898?

[Maegrom]

Great stuff. Very often I also think about this topic. He came to the opposite conclusion. The program can be reviewed. You need to shift the actual material to a later date. To increase, if necessary, due to senior classes, the number of hours and give the basis of history - an introduction to working with sources on the example of Ancient Russia. The main problem is that, unlike mathematics, physics, chemistry (if there are conditions), and even a Russian in the course of history, fact-finding is given without an apparatus, an instrument of work. That is what should be in the exam in history at the forefront. Almost any person will be able to understand history in the context of universal informatization, but only if he is taught an instrument. This can not be left only to specialized universities.
Z.Y. about hens specify that fifty kopecks is in kopecks.
ZY.2 Genetics went beyond studying the halogen.

[kalibr]

Totally agree with you. You can give fish and the person will be full for the day. Two fish - two days. Or you can network, teach to catch and ... he will always be full. But again, this should be started with textbooks for ... grades 4-5 and then go "up", gaining complexity. This is a job for a huge team of authors and for a lot of money.

While writing a comment, I was thinking about your idea and I like it more and more. Here's how to translate?

[Maegrom]

If I were a certified historian with a title, I would try it myself. But I am a little official, mathematician, programmer, policeman, but not a professional historian. For the implementation, I do not have enough literate language, no acquaintances and recognized regalia. To implement it, you need a group of good source experts, methodologists, and a breakdown resource. As well as semi-open development, so to speak with a closed test.

[kalibr]

Yes, it is a pity! Those who could - cannot. Those who would like to have no resources. I cannot master this business in Penza after the fact. The wrong caliber.

[Maegrom]

By the way, tasks on history would be very interesting. Given such information from various sources - what should be concluded. You can still come up with. And even a test approach would give excellent results in assessing understanding.
True, in this case, history is also studied at the junction with social science and psychology, somewhere in mathematics. But this is somewhere correct.
I remember us in physics at school, despite the lack of time, they gave us something from mathematics that we did not have time to go through at that time.
High school mathematics provides an integral part of the apparatus for the study of physics and chemistry. Psychology, social studies and mathematics should also provide an apparatus for studying history. History should be more integrated into the school course as a whole.
Here you can "agree" on a comprehensive revision of the school course for most of the subjects (except for physical education and foreign language), considering it as an integral system of knowledge, the most coherent graph built in time.
In this case, it is possible even to develop a set of courses on the effectiveness of existing subjects by an order of magnitude greater than the existing one. But I can’t even imagine how much effort the R&D will cost in developing such a high school course. Moreover, for its development, you will need special software, rather complicated. As well as an increase in monetary allowance for teachers, to compensate for the inevitable loss of personnel when changing course.
And there will be 5 times more criticism than with the introduction of the USE, especially at the first stage of implementation, when a failure to fulfill a program (unintentional sabotage from misunderstanding) will, in spite of even the envisaged reserve, sometimes give disastrous results, whose cause cannot be determined quickly.
In general, - Ostap suffered)))

[Maegrom]

If without transcendental fantasies.
Interestingly, in the study of more ancient history, anthropogenesis, natural sciences are important, the latest - the decisive importance of psychology, social science. In general - you can throw a sketch of the curriculum. Then evaluate the necessary basic knowledge for study. Maybe 10-11 grades the lower limit, maybe we’ll fly outside the school, maybe we can stay in high school. You won’t be able to figure out before drafting the course.

[ivanovbg]

A true history textbook is impossible to write because history is a policy overturned in the past.

[RoTTor]

Already have one - EVGENIA SPITSINA - 4 volumes + 1 volume of illustrations

[Basil50]

An interesting science. HISTORY, an event that has already happened can be interpreted as you like, under any order. Moreover, lately the link to the source is not required * necessarily *. As an example, we can take * suicide * of Poles on an airplane. The stream of all kinds of different * information * sank a real event in its mass, you can pull out any * piece of * event and with foam at the mouth * reasonably * confidently describe even what was not there. What the Poles are selflessly doing and do not give a damn about reality. There are many such examples.
Solovyov, in his story about HODGE HEREDITA, has a description of a city chronicler who was going to describe the abominations of a historical character, when he suddenly remembered that the ruler of the city was his relative, and then wrote * to avoid * on the sheets and turned over several pages describing the abominations of another character. It is a pity that historians are likened to this character, or serve the order.

[unknown]

About almost any person who can figure out the story; not mathematics after all.

There is objective statistics, which indicates that mathematicians are the first to defend (candidate, doctoral), then chemists, physicists.
Humanities much later: the penultimate historians, and the most recent philosophers.
School scheduling takes into account the difficulty of subjects. Chemistry is considered the easiest.

According to the textbook. One and true. Unfortunately, impossible.
The traditional version of the story is incorrect. It's not even Nosovsky and Fomenko, Kesler, Kolyuzhny, Volanskiy, Zhabinsky. A new generation of researchers has emerged who question the history of the XNUMXth century.
Accordingly, the traditional version of the history of the twentieth century, its first half, is also unreliable. Academic historians have taken up a defensive defense, instead of studying new versions, even within the framework of historiography. All this will lead to the fact that we will remain completely without history.

[Aleksander]

BALANCE OF WORKING AND UNABLE DAYS IN THE MIDDLE 19 - THE BEGINNING OF 20 V.: 1850-ies. - 135 working days, non-working (total) - 230;
1872 g. - 125 working days, non-working (total) - 240; 1902 - 107, and 258! Accordingly, the holidays were 95,105 and 123!

A working day is a statutory norm for the duration of daily work hours and minutes of working time per day.
Non-working statutory holiday
Was there such a thing in the middle of the 19 century? Of course not.
Peasants worked on holidays too, except for the most important ones.

[tatra]

In the encyclopedic dictionary “Russia” it is said that “the average annual (288 days for 12 hours) earnings of a factory worker is defined as 187 rubles. 60 K., with fluctuations of 88 p. 54 K. up to 606 p. " In the reference book “Russia. 1913 ”indicates the average wage of workers in various industries of the factory industry of European Russia in 1910-1913. During these years, its average size grew from 243 to 264 p.

[kalibr]

Quote: Aleksander

Was there such a thing in the middle of the 19 century? Of course not.

Of course yes! At that time, there were a lot of things that we have. And there is information about this. It is completely accessible to everyone.
I have a novel "Pareto's Law" published in Germany. So this is where it happens in 1918. And the main character has a vacuum cleaner, an electric kettle, an electric iron at home. So one of them wrote to me that all this is fiction. And if he could look into advertisements in magazines and newspapers of that time, he would know that all this was, and even in Russia, although, of course, not all of them.

[Aleksander]

Quote: kalibr

Of course yes! At that time, there were a lot of things that we have. And there is information about this

Of course not: in the sense that you mean "working, non-working days" today.
Otherwise, bring "Article 112 of the Labor Code of the Russian Federation. Non-working holidays" and Article 91 of the Labor Code 1850's sample.

[Rivares]

Quote: Aleksander

Peasants worked on holidays too, except for the most important ones.

The working day is only for the worker. And they wanted and worked on their land as they wanted.
Workday and Salary can only be on the worker / farm laborer.

[ALEA IACTA EST]

History needs to be completely cleaned from politics - to give only facts without prepared conclusions.

[Igor39]

Yes, now take any textbook on the history of the countries of the USSR, so everyone was a great power in the past, and then Russia came and colonized everyone, like that

[Darkness]

Totalitarian, bloody Bolsheviks broke into farms and villages and built schools, universities, hospitals there. Conducted gas, light, etc.
How did these little proud nations survive by the oppression of bloody aggressors !!!

[kalibr]

And for all these benefits they paid us what? The fact that they resolutely refused to continue to be part of Russia and ... even their negative attitude towards it. Why?

[tatra]

Even despite the lies and slander launched by the enemies of the Communists in the late 80s, the myths that it is their republic that feeds the entire USSR, that it is only necessary to separate, so that everyone in the republic will be healed several times better and richer, the Soviet people in a referendum in March 19991 by a majority of voters, the USSR voted FOR continuing to live in one large country.
It is the enemies of the Communists who forcibly dismembered both Soviet Russia during the Civil War and the USSR in 1991.

[Darkness]

Not only communists. Enemies of Russia and Russians. The anti-Soviet is always Russophobe.

[kalibr]

And the Communists sat with their hands on their stomach and blinked their eyes. And the enemies around them did their dirty deeds. Isn’t it funny for yourself?

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: kalibr

And the Communists sat with their hands on their stomach and blinked their eyes. And the enemies around them did their dirty deeds. Isn’t it funny for yourself?

Weren't you a communist?

[kalibr]

Was! And I didn’t see any enemies. Fools - I saw a lot. And the cooks made their way upstairs ... but did not see the enemies.

[Darkness]

When did they refuse to be part of Russia?

[Nikolay82]

The history textbook of the "Great" Estonians, without meldonium it is definitely impossible to read a Russian person.

[Igor V]

On such emotions, the author of the textbook will not work. I will not reveal a secret, saying that the textbook should be sketchy, a dry statement of facts, diluted with examples from life (annals). If a student of a class studies the event by day, he will quickly lose interest and develop a rejection of the subject. Creating a scheme is not so difficult, having documents.
The attitude towards the "first hand turner" was jarring. The author is an obvious humanist who does not understand what a specialist is. Yes, on this turner, all production can be held.

[mealnik2005]

"In the diploma for the state exam, there is only one four - for scientific communism ... But they put a" 4 "and the red diploma was covered with a copper basin."

If my memory serves me, the number 4 in the red diploma should not exceed 25% of the total number of grades. Does the author have only 4 subjects in the diploma? It seems even 3 ... This is a diploma ... I have 32 of them from general to specialized.

[tacet]

Your memory is cheating on you. According to the "Regulations on gold and silver medals, approved by the Council of Ministers of the USSR," a gold medal (red diploma) "was awarded to graduates of the 5th grade of educational institutions who have semi-annual, annual and final marks" XNUMX " in all subjects and received marks "5" at the state (final) attestation. Silver marks "5" and no more than two marks "4".

[kalibr]

These are grades for the state exam. In 1977, it was necessary to pass all the GOSs perfectly.

[tacet]

Vyacheslav, in my opinion, you are in vain trying to give evidence to the statement of Stanislav Jerzy Lec.

[Mother CheeseEarth]

a warrant officer of the imperial army at the end of the 19th century - 25 p., a classy lady (without lessons) - 30 p., a first-hand turner in 1902 at the Putilov factory - 40

In his "memoirs of Zhukovschina" he wrote that for 3 rubles a month he rented a room in the center of Moscow with his widow and daughter (which he happily fell in love with, but was later sent to hell for joining the Red Army). And at the same time he received at least 18 rubles a month, and he was not even 18 years old.
Compared with today's prices, about 30000 a month for a room in the center, his salary would be at least 180000 rubles a month, and this is a 17-year-old boy who barely graduated from grade 3 (and his sister did not master it).
And this despite the fact that today we live ten times better than we lived under the Bolshevik yoke.

And two hens, plus five eggs, plus two franzole buns were worth fifty dollars.

In the "memoirs of Zhukovschina" he wrote that one of his masters "was very greedy and saved up for his own business, he could have breakfast, lunch and dinner at 10 cents in a day".
Others (including his dad) drank almost all the money. But even despite the alcoholism of his parents and the fact that his family was "very poor" (and why would he be rich if the parents are drunks?), He blurts out that they had a cow and a horse, and before the "coup" they we have put ourselves a new log house in installments.

1902 - 107, and 258!

And under Dzhugashvili, they introduced a 7-day working week.
And this despite the fact that the eight-hour working day was only dreamed of by the workers, "piecework" and "Stakhanovism" flourished and smelled throughout. Whole workshops provided "records", which were recorded for the majors close to the leadership. Newspapers of those years wrote about massive damage to equipment and regular cases of the murder of "Stakhanovites" by dissatisfied workers.
And why should they be happy, while they worked hard for 12 hours or more and died of hunger, the same Stakhanov and Vasily Dzhugashvili flew around Moscow drunk on an expensive foreign car, shot down passers-by and raped women.
The social stratification under Dzhugashvili was terrible, ten times more than in the 90s!
And this is our true, true story.

[tacet]

You have not read the case of Suvorov-Rezun?

[Mother CheeseEarth]

Quote: tacet

You have not read the case of Suvorov-Rezun?

You can read everything I wrote in GK Zhukov's "memoirs and reflections", as well as type "Stakhanov" and "Vasily Stalin" in Wikipedia.

[Riv]

Sorry ... But did not Suvorov / Rezun prove more convincingly that Zhukov not only did not write his memoirs, but also did not read?

[tatra]

You constantly write anti-Soviet lies and slander, but on this site, it is obvious that this is welcomed, and honest comments by supporters of the communists are deleted.
And this is frank nonsense, that 18 pre-revolutionary rubles is 180 thousand today.
According to the Statistical Digest of 1913, a kilogram of beef in Moscow and St. Petersburg is a table of 58 kopecks, a pair of chicken -1 ruble 93 kopecks.
That is, for 18 rubles you could buy a month 30 kilograms of meat and 18 hens.
The New Word, 1896, No. 9, p. 67.
In 1898, the housing stock of Moscow was examined. It turned out that out of a million residents of the capital, 200 thousand are huddled in the so-called “room-locker rooms”, many in the “closets” - rooms with partitions not reaching the ceiling, many rented separate bunks or even “half-beds” on which the workers slept different shifts. When the wage of the worker is 12 to 20 rubles. per month, the closet cost 6 rubles. Single bed - 2 rubles., Half - 1,5 rubles.

[Mother CheeseEarth]

Quote: tatra

That is, for 18 rubles you could buy a month 30 kilograms of meat and 18 hens.

What do you mean! Didn't the communists teach you that under the tsar people did not eat meat at all? A two for you for "belief in communism"!
And with 30 kilos of meat per month you can get poisoned and burst, for example, I generally prefer sea fish with fruits to meat.
How many kilos of sea fish and fruit were there when Dzhugashvili per month per person ?!

Quote: tatra

In 1898, the housing stock of Moscow was examined.

And what is not 1798? Or immediately 1698! How many square meters were introduced under the tsar per year do you know? Well, take an interest.
I will just remind you that today in the Russian Federation more housing is being built per quarter than under Dzhugashvili per year. At the same time, under Dzhugashvili, usually elite "rest homes" and barracks for the proletariat were built, and now normal housing.

[tatra]

Oh, as ALWAYS, the enemies of the Communists will lie at first, and when you are refuted, you begin to get out cowardly.

[Mother CheeseEarth]

Quote: tatra

Oh, as ALWAYS, the enemies of the Communists will lie at first, and when you are refuted, you begin to get out cowardly.

You have some kind of incoherent stream of words, you scare me.
I initially gave you data taken from "memoirs and reflections" by G.K. Zhukov.
After that you accuse me of "anti-communism".
(and this is very funny, because communism does not initially exist in nature, and how can one be opposed to what initially is not ?!)
So maybe G.K. Accuse Zhukov of "anti-communism" ?!

[Darkness]

You're a liar. Does your faith let you lie?

[goose]

Quote: Mother CheeseEarth

under Dzhugashvili, usually elite "rest houses" and barracks for the proletariat were built,

Those. numerous "stalinkas" - are they rest houses and barracks?
Mass barracks and cheap housing began to be built under Khrushchev in order to compensate for the large loss of housing during the war. Under Stalin, barracks were built only as temporary housing, if there was no industry to build normal. By the way, under Stalin they wanted to introduce a 4-day work week. A very limited part of the personnel of several factories was transferred to the 7-day week in 1940, as befits the laws of wartime.

[Mother CheeseEarth]

Quote: goose

Those. numerous "stalinkas"

Numerous ?! I didn’t know that a couple of Stalinos all over Moscow (and they were built to remind you for the most elite nomenclature) is a lot!

Quote: goose

under Stalin, they wanted to introduce a 4-day work week.

Tales are all. And matters are important, not Wishlist.

[oking]

Quote: goose

numerous "stalinkas" - are they rest houses and barracks?

Numerous? Where are they located?

Quote: goose

Mass barracks and cheap housing began to be built under Khrushchev,

When Khrushchev built Khrushchev. The construction of the Khrushchevs had nothing to do with the war.
Barracks and Stalin’s were built under Dzhugashvili. The former are many, the latter are few. Just under Dzhugashvili, people in the USSR were very different in their grading.

Quote: goose

Under Stalin, barracks were built only as temporary housing, if there was no industry to build normal.

Something somehow too much was built for the temporary.

Quote: goose

By the way, under Stalin they wanted to introduce a 4-day work week.

And they also wanted to "build communism". Only these fantasies didn't matter.

Quote: goose

A very limited part of the personnel of several factories was transferred to the 7-day week in 1940, as befits the laws of wartime.

Everyone. According to the 1940 law. everyone was transferred to a 7-day week with 6 working days for 8 hours. Then everyone was transferred to a 7-day working week with 7 working days for 12 hours. Then they returned to the previous scheme. And finally "work according to the laws of wartime" (in fact, slavery, since the employee was forbidden to leave of his own free will) was canceled only by Khrushchev in 1956.

[Ajevgenij]

Stalin is not only in Moscow. Minsk is perhaps even better made. Yes, and in most cities there are kernels of Stalinist architecture, the quality of which is very high (considered by both professionals and ordinary people)

[Darkness]

And this is the standard training manual of the Russophobe and lover of junkers and gymnasium students.
Never mind.

[kalibr]

Quote: Mother CheeseEarth

Newspapers of those years wrote about massive damage to equipment and regular cases of the murder of "Stakhanovites" by dissatisfied workers.

See the Pravda newspaper for the same years. A lot of interesting things can be learned directly from the text.

[Mother CheeseEarth]

Quote: kalibr

Many interesting things can be learned directly from the text.

For me, at one time, the "revelation" was that under Dzhugashvili the shadow economy flourished and smelled, and almost all statistics were based on a system of postscripts and kickbacks.
And if earlier it was still possible to argue on the plane "there were repressions, but there was order", then when you realize that there was no order, then this is already YES!

[Uncle Murzik]

gee gee gee liberals are always caught on fantasies, postscripts and kickbacks are to blame for everything, but about the "shadow economy" under Stalin, this is generally an anecdote!

[Riv]

In fact, under Stalin, the existence of organized crime in the country was indeed quite officially recognized. "The meeting place can not be changed" looked? There were not one or ten such gangs. In particular, Yezhov's order number 445, which was already discussed in the comments, also concerned them.

But it’s ridiculous even to suppose that such a Brokeback could bribe the prosecutor, who is part of the troika.

[Uncle Murzik]

only it is not clear under such good "conditions" of life, life expectancy in pre-revolutionary Russia was 30 years !. In India, during the rule of the British, the average life expectancy of Hindus was 30 years, while the British in this country at that time lived up to 65 years. In tsarist Russia in 1897, the average life expectancy for men was recorded at 31,4 years, in 1913 - 32 years!

[Mother CheeseEarth]

Quote: Uncle Murzik

"conditions" of life, life expectancy in pre-revolutionary Russia was 30 years!

They have already explained it 1001 times, so I’d like to ask, are you that uncle?
At that time there was a rather high level of child and violent death.
But the life expectancy (the age at which they die of old age) was at almost the current level, Zhukov’s father (since his memories began to be remembered) at the time of his birth was more than 50, and when he was drafted into the army, it was already more than 70 .

[Uncle Murzik]

you yourself understood what you wrote

[EvgNik]

Quote: Mother CheeseEarth

At that time there was a rather high level of child and violent death.

Learn to think. At the same time, millions of people were shot, a high child and violent mortality rate (how many people did the war take away?) And at the same time, the country's population is growing. During perestroika, more people died than during the "repression". And the population is now growing (and even then only slightly), only due to the influx of migrants.

[ver_]

Quote: lukmag

During the time of Catherine the Great and other kings, the church was in a slightly different position and status.
She was part of the state apparatus, led the affairs of the Church Synod, headed by Ober prosecutor, who was appointed by the tsar. This situation developed under Peter the Great. The Orthodox tsar abolished the patriarchate in Russia, and the patriarchate was restored only with the coming to power of the Bolsheviks led by Lenin.

..At the same time, Peter destroyed the library of John the Terrible, dying out a lot in church books, cut down historical frescoes in churches. With him, the Cathedral of St. John the Terrible = Vasilyevs the Blessed turned into the Cathedral of St. Basil the Blessed, with whom the hired foreigners wrote the history of the Russian state ..

[tacet]

"under him, hired foreigners wrote the history of the Russian state .."
It’s about how Miller’s work “On the Origin of the People and the Name of the Russian” was yelled by academician-astronomer Nikita Petrov. “You, Miller, the shame of our science!” He yelled. And as the wing of a "German pest" a talented national nugget from Arkhangelsk, Mikhailo Lomonosov, who imagines himself a great historian! Academics, stopudovo, would also break Miller’s sides. But he was a man of great physical strength and excellent fearlessness. In addition, armed with a sword, relying on academics in form. Therefore, the learned brethren, fearing that a German trained in fencing, would tear their bellies, even if they dare to attack him en masse, simply attacked the president of the Academy of Sciences, HETMAN Kirill Razumovsky, by laying down the BEST TRADITIONS of Russian historical science. Can't argue with your opponent? Accuse him of anti-Russian, anti-Ukrainian or anti-Soviet. In a word, in rejection of the official political course. However, in the West this is also a little better. God forbid in Europe and the United States to get among those who are considered "politically incorrect." This is a terrible "crime"!
What is so terrible that academician Miller told his colleagues? But just the fact that Kievan Rus was founded NOT by the Slavs, but by the Vikings who sailed from Sweden. Their Nestor the Chronicler called in the "Tale of Bygone Years" "Varangians." “And the Russian land was nicknamed from those Varangians,” he wrote in The Tale of Bygone Years.
But the president of the Academy of Sciences, Kirill Razumovsky, the son of a swineherd from a village near Kiev, did not understand any sciences. He became the head of the Academy and the hetman of Ukraine only because he was the brother of the lover of Empress Elizabeth Petrovna - Alexei Razumovsky, the same son of a swineherd and a specialist in singing.
Like a big gentleman (from the boor - pan), the hetman-academician did not personally understand anything. This distracted him from playing cards and amorous feats. He instructed the author of the denunciation, Mikhail Lomonosov, to investigate the Varangian issue. And he came to the conclusion that Miller’s report is offensive to subjects of the Russian Empire.
“If we assume that Rurik and his descendants, who owned Russia, were of a Swedish family,” Lomonosov urged Razumovsky, “then they won’t be able to deduce from which a dangerous consequence ... It will be very annoying and disappointing for Russian listeners” ... You see how you were worried about us with you!
After that, Academician Miller was forbidden to deal with the origin of Russia, and his report was destroyed. Until the end of his life, Miller (and he lived a lot - almost 80 years!) Studied the history of the discovery of Siberia.
Text- "Dokievskaya Rus" Oles Buzina

[Basil50]

Miller was engaged in copying and * editing * RUSSIAN CHRONICLES. All * fearlessness * of Germans in RUSSIA was based on the punishment of anyone who opposed the Germans.

[Rivares]

Quote: tacet

What is so terrible that academician Miller told his colleagues? But just the fact that Kievan Rus was founded NOT by the Slavs, but by the Vikings who sailed from Sweden.

And in what language did he communicate? He did not know Russian. And what sources did you rely on? But unfounded.
But you do not have your own opinion, but the opinion of foreigners is more autonomous for you, and you retype it.

[tacet]

Oles Buzin is not a foreigner to me (we were born and raised in one country)
And yes, I am a "Normanist" for the "evidence" of other theories of Rurik's origin, to put it mildly, are not convincing.

[Rivares]

That's just the Normanists directly refer to the chronicle, which clearly states that it was not Swedes who were invited to reign (control).

[tacet]

To be precise, the Skeldung family was Danish-Swedish at that time.

[Rurik]

I believe that the main question is not in the history textbook, but in the teacher, in their ability and desire to give an objective assessment of certain events. Only this is a question about the quality of training of specialists in ped. Universities, which is steadily and annually declining.

[Cartalon]

Brilliant article touches the comments of the Communists, because the union collapsed because they lied to people all the way, and then you give out lies for the truth, minus comrades.

[tatra]

Yes, it is only among the cowardly enemies of the Communists that countries can "spontaneously" fall apart, without the participation of people who are deliberately falling apart.

[Darkness]

Of course, it was on the lies and kogovoy totalitarianism that the largest power in the history of our planet was built.
You Russophobia, not tired of insulting your ancestors?

[kalibr]

Poorly built! Otherwise it would not have collapsed in peacetime, without war and "the legs of a foreign soldier" on the territory. Ah, the byaks broke through to the top? And where did the faithful and devotees look. Why didn't “ours” break into the US leadership?

[VSkilled]

The "deeply conspiratorial" agent "sort of Shpakovsky" (this is, by his own admission, the surname ... of his mother's second husband (!)), After attracting the necessary audience with beautiful pictures in previous posts, proceeded to the main task ...

And yet - WHO offers us to write for us a "true history textbook"?

Another Jew who is afraid of his own shadow, not knowing already what name to hide behind. I wonder why he did such a thing that he is so afraid?

A Jew who has already "pierced" on HOW he is ordered to present us with our own history. Yeah ... On the example of depicting the "Battle on the Ice", which, in the opinion of "as it were Shpakovsky" and his Western curators - so ... and not a massacre at all, but - "completely petty", one might say, just "an insignificant border incident ".

And, moreover, "as if Shpakovsky" - was ... a "communist"! And even, by his own admission, during the Soviet Union, he taught "History of the CPSU" for ten years (!).

For ten years (!) He enthusiastically talked about the "hegemony of the working class" and took exams.

And, today, he cannot even pronounce the word "proletariat", reducing it to the contemptuous "prolet":

"Proles and animals are free!" © (https://topwar.ru/97000-angliyskiy-istorik-fillis-dzhestays-o-ledovom-poboische
-s-zamechaniyami-i-kommentariyami.html # comment-id-6008328)

Well? Let us entrust our story to the next sticky sweaty little hands of an ideological traitor?

“Let's write a true history textbook?”

Oh, let's send the author on a journey! On foot, it’s ... erotic.

Yes, really ... The State Department is doing very bad things: what trash you just don't have to rely on.

[Odysseus]

Quote: VSkilled

And, moreover, "as if Shpakovsky" - was ... a "communist"! And even, by his own admission, during the Soviet Union, he taught "History of the CPSU" for ten years (!).
For ten years (!) He enthusiastically talked about the "hegemony of the working class" and took exams.

Really? Well, it can’t be. This would be too much cynicism and duplicity.

[VSkilled]

Duc ... I attached a reference to the topic where, in the heat of controversy, he is engaged in natural and moral striptease.

And then - it dawned on me WHAT "odor" is present in his "struggle for historical truth"!

Very similar cliches and phrases were broadcast by the "communists" of the late USSR, including the teacher on "History of the CPSU" in our university.

The citizen "kind of Shpakovsky" - "spits" with the usual phrases and cliches, replacing, where required, phrases about the "leading role of the Party", terms about "the leading role of the enlightened West."

Just "deja vu", some ...

And about "cynicism and duplicity" - among the Jews these concepts are elevated to the rank of absolute (!) Virtue, simply - at the level of religion: it is these qualities that helped them, as they believe, "to survive as a people."

[kalibr]

Imagine! And there is no cynicism or duplicity here! When there was only one information - "I thought so" and honestly performed the assigned task. Then I received other information, I thought. Then in 91 everything collapsed and they didn’t ask me. But ... the opportunity to receive information previously unavailable has opened. I thought again. And that's all - the communist games were over.

[Odysseus]

Quote: kalibr

Imagine! And there is no cynicism and duplicity here!

Then Judas, who betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, and repenting, returned thirty pieces of silver to the high priests and elders, saying: I have sinned by betraying innocent blood. But they said to him, What do we care? take a look yourself. And having thrown the pieces of silver in the temple, he went out, went and strangled himself.

[kalibr]

Oh, who drew? You haven't been there for a long time, but why are you so fired up for being Jewish? I just couldn't understand. And then I read your comments and understood. You are a crest and a grandmother from Kiev. It doesn’t matter if it’s maternal or paternal. Half crest! Why don't Ukrainians like Jews? Because they themselves ... like to live at someone else's expense. Which, by the way, is confirmed by one wonderful Russian proverb: "Where the hohoL passed, a Jew has nothing to do!" Hence all your talk about money and that your salary is very high. What else is the Ukrainian not to boast about? But ... I'll make you happy! I, too ... like you, half crest! Only your grandmother is in Kiev, and I was in Cherkasy. By the father! And my father's surname ... Shevchenko, it's funny, right? Even from school I got sick: you are not a relative of Taras Grigorievich ... Well, what kind of people do we have? And I wore it until the 2nd year of the institute, yes. And those who know me from Penza can confirm this, but then my mother, when I was in the 10th grade, married Pyotr Shpakovsky and ... because of his age, he could no longer adopt me. And so I would be Shevchenko, if not for my wedding. It is convenient to change the surname. And I say to the bride: you can be Shevchenko, you can be Shpakovskaya. "Shpakovskaya is more beautiful!" - she said and ... we changed the names in one day. Well, they did not expect the flourishing of anti-Semitism in the country of internationalism and "new Soviet people". That's it, but as you can see for yourself, it takes a long time to explain everything, that's why I didn't write about it before. Who is interested in different personal moments half a century ago? But for the sake of a person who is close by nationality, a half-dick like myself, you can work hard! So hello, crest! Otkel ancestors, maybe yours plowed on mine, eh? Because, as mine certainly did not plow on anyone, neither Shevchenko, nor on the line of Shpakovsky. This one, according to his mother, was generally from a kind entered in the 6th Velvet Book of the Russian Empire, look on the Web, there is a coat of arms there. So I am glad to welcome you again! And Jewishness ... Considering how much the Jews have done for all of humanity, then being a Jew is good, by the way. It's kind of like a compliment!
Yes, and about the proles and animals, it was not me, unfortunately, who said, but George Orwell in "! 984". Why don't you even know that, ay-ay ?!

[kalibr]

Quote: VSkilled

Well? Let us entrust our story to the next sticky sweaty little hands of an ideological traitor?

The funny thing is that nobody from your Kazakhstan will ask you about this. And in general, none of those who put downs here (like pluses, in fact) no one asks whether to trust or not. I want - I will write, I do not want, I will not write. The issue will not be decided by you and not here. So cool off! To each his own!

[VSkilled]

The funniest thing ...

Yes, what, really, there is fun ...

When the Jews in Russia for 100 years (!) Stubbornly imagine themselves ... "the conscience of the Russian people"!

And, as a result, blood and genocide ...

What - after 1917 ... (That is what you - "frolic" until grandfather Stalin began to "multiply by zero" you!)

What - after 1991 ... Against the backdrop of walks: “Russian oligarchs - the path of Moses” © (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlIb1jMQNgs)

And to me from Kazakhstan - it is much more visible than to you from Izrailovka.

Because I'm Russian. And my passport is appropriate. And - grandmother. Russian grandmother who lived in Kiev.

You, as a Jew, do not understand this. You all strive to look into the document, forgetting that "they are not hitting on the passport."

And, by the way, the "Ukrainians" are Russians, who have such brains, like "peysa_teli" from history, like you.

The West managed to create "Ukrainians", now intensive work is underway to further divide the Russians into as many "nations" as possible: "Cossacks", "Siberians", "Far Easterners" and so on ...

It is for these purposes that you, from behind the hillock, are being financed.

And why Ukrainians do not like Jews?

Excuse me, but who loves them?

Over the centuries, not a single nation has "worked out" with the Jews. None of them. In Jewish (!) "Books", I remember, one nation did try ... And even - under the ardent persuasion of Jews, they accepted Judaism with total circumcision. After that, the Jews, taking advantage of the fact that "the men were in illness" - cut out this very people "at the root."

Therefore, other nations ceased to believe Jews. What saved yourself.

And nowhere else is there something that "does not like", but simply - they frankly do not see it, despite any laws.

As the saying goes, "You won't be nice by force." ©

[VSkilled]

And, with his:

"Prols and animals are free!"

for Orwell you are in vain trying to hide. Clumsy turns out.

The quote is not only highlighted with quotes. Quotation marks are enough only for "direct speech".

And, for a quote, you need at least a © or at least (C). And you, as a "historian" who constantly uses a lot of references and quotations in your work, you know perfectly well.

Therefore, you INTENTIONALLY admitted the absence of this icon in order to emphasize your personal attitude.

Oh, the quotes - left. To be able to "hide behind, if that". Say, it's all not me, it's Oruel.

The cover turned out a la "fig leaf". Jewish conceit has failed you again.

But, in the context of your stay not just in ordinary "commies", but in the teachers of "the history of the CPSU", and even with SUCH experience, your so-called quotation sounded especially vile.

Here, citizens, is a good example, WHY, almost all (!) Peoples are from Jews, to put it mildly ... "not happy."

[kalibr]

No need to be ashamed of the fact that you are a crest, no need to hide behind a supposedly Russian grandmother - everything is so hohlyatskoe and rushing. And Kazakh too. How are you with the lambing of the rams, is everything all right? However, it does not matter. It is more important that I have already written everything to you, by the way. You crest or not (it is known that women in their infidelities, ha-ha, do not admit to anyone!) Does not matter. You are allowed to blow off steam here - let off. You are allowed here to demonstrate your zeal and virtue as a khokhla-Kazakh - demonstrate to your health. In my opinion, this will not change anything. I already wrote to you that your opinion would make sense if you were the head of the expert council of the Russian Humanitarian Science Foundation, or if you were the editor of the journal Voprosy istorii - then yes. I am not interested in publishing in Kazakh scientific publications. So "to each his own", right? By the way, I’m not from Izrailovka at all, but I live and work in Penza, where everyone knows me. Now let's calculate the possibilities:
10 years of history teaching is 15 groups every year by 25 people in each group, and sometimes more. Then, from 91 to the present day, there are still 20 groups a year - that is, these are the people I taught, and they are also here at VO. I give them knowledge and teach how to use them, yes? Can you imagine my possibilities and yours? And books published in thousand copies and reprinted both here and abroad? What is against this your funny chatter here? Moreover, if you were not, then ... it would be worthwhile to invent you. Yes, do not be surprised! Somehow I’ll write an article about the methods of information management of people and how people like me use people like you. This is cool, by the way. This is just great. So go on and on, you will greatly oblige me.

[kalibr]

How does Mr. Khokhol pick you up? And why don't I write about you what you write about me without proof? I don’t like that you are a crest after your grandmother, right? Something you react very painfully to this, so it is so and I guessed correctly. Well, the communists-internationalists did not pay attention to this. Their main beliefs. And who's with whom ... what's the difference. As for my books "there" - they are all on the Internet, so whoever is interested - they will find it, it is not difficult. As for the "used" ... so far, that I use you and somehow - I have already promised, I will write how. VO readers will be interested. Our JI specialists have a saying: "There is no such beastliness from which a real PR man would not cut himself a piece of ham."

Quote: VSkilled

However, it’s a crisis ... Yes, and your steam is not interesting to people, apparently.

By the way, do not dream!
My book about Japanese samurai has just received a grant from the Russian Humanitarian Science Foundation and ... will be out of print in August. Although the crisis. Perhaps it is interesting to someone if the reader votes for it with his own ruble. Medvedev says there is no money, but for some there is, and if you consider that it is not easy for the state to give money, then ... And now I am preparing documents for the next grant. There are many chances, the work is serious, it has been tested in the journals "Questions of History" and "History of State and Law". So I am glad to inform you about it. And you can check it on the website of the Russian Humanitarian Science Foundation. At the same time, you will learn what it is. You do not have this in your Kazakhstan, do you? And why?

[VSkilled]

How does it however take you ...

Do not wishful thinking.

If this really happened, believe me - I would take the time to talk with you personally.


With regard to "grants"

Medvedev says there is no money, but for some it is, and given that the government does not give us money easily, then ... And now I am preparing documents for the next grant ...

- Well Duc, go without the help of your fellow tribesmen - could it have happened?

No wonder we have gr. Medinsky, as the Minister of Culture - first "allocates money" (and - a lot!), Then - they shoot "movies".
Then - people from this "kin" openly spit, and then ... (ta-dam!) "Arrests in the Ministry of Culture of Russia: handcuffs found their" heroes "(http://xakac.info/news/48865)

"Coincidence? I don’t think so! ” ©

I believe that a similar "cuisine" is quite possible with "grants". You don’t admit - to whom and how much did you "roll back"?

Again, there are special channels for providing "grants" for feeding people like you. And, those who allocate such "grants" are absolutely not interested in science. It is important for them that you help to captivate, or at least "orient" the crowd "in the right direction."

WHERE does the money come from - has long been the "secret of the Open". “Is fecit cui prodest. »©

Therefore, no matter how highly you would try to evaluate and present yourself, from your "creativity" - it always carries bias and rubbish.

Too openly you are trying to "make amends" for your membership in the CPSU before the new owners.

"History" cannot be called a science. Real science is based only on facts. The facts, not the opinion of the chronicler. Hence, in the "history" there is too much room for interpretation; for frank "creativity": manipulation and distortion.

At the same time, manipulations and distortions in the interpretation of History have always taken place, that is, since ancient times. Therefore, with a certain skill, on the same issue, you can pick up mutually exclusive "historical evidence".

What do you, sobsno, and - feed ...


By the way, about the samurai. Your strained, repeated (if not obsessive!) Declarativeness of your "successes" reminded me of a Japanese proverb:

«
You - said once, I - believed you.
You - said twice, I - began to doubt.
You - said three times, I - realized that you are lying ... "©

[a housewife]

How not ashamed at all ?! Crest, Jew, Russian, Kazakh, Tatar ... Why do you dishonor your ancestors ?! People have to be.

[Aleksander]

Quote: kalibr

- I’ll write, I don’t want, I won’t write. The issue will not be resolved by you and not here

Write, interesting. And do not listen and do not pay attention to the forever "bruised" by the Jews.

[kalibr]

Thank you, Alexander! But I, as you see, do not pay. I write not for such, but for you, for many others. As they say in the East: Dogs bark, but the caravan goes on!

[Lazy ozzy]

[quote = MotherSyraZemlya] [quote = lukmag] the authors of the textbooks do not answer the question for some reason, and why there have been revisions in the country — as many as three in fifteen years. [/ quote]
Scientists (?!, What are these, British go?) Have long answered this question, and the correct answer is unequivocal: there were no revolutions in the Russian Empire,
"Sharik, you dunce!" ©
Books are not published in order to smoke dung, they need to be read.

[Mengad]

Quote: Nikolay S.

Quote: Shpakovsky

there are only three such sources: annals, archaeological finds and ... data on haplogroups. All! There is no other!

Oh how! Ancient literature is no longer a source? And what about the inscriptions on the monuments? say, runic? etc. But the haplogroup "source" ... still the same.

There is a lot of casuistry, not on the point, apparently in order to "substantiate" that the author of a school textbook should be anyone. For example, here is such a character (in the picture there are quotes from his "speech" in the Yeltsin Center, link in the same place):

In our history, there are many blank spots and events that allow different, sometimes contradictory, interpretations. That's only Russian historians should interpret them, and not the characters on the other hand, waging a war against Russia, in this case the information one.

Quote: Shpakovsky

The Russian Orthodox Church is the main brake on the development of the Russian economy until 1917!

How did the church interfere with Catherine II, Alexandram and Nicholas? Many countries then developed as Russia did with them?
You yourself write about the giant salaries of workers then - and this is the main sign of the rapid development of industry.

Do you think Catholic gays and pedophiles would develop faster?
Or are you already bothering for the new rainbow sodomites?

Oh how! Ancient literature is no longer a source? And what about the inscriptions on the monuments? say, runic? etc. But the haplogroup "source" ... still the same.
Most of these sources to which you refer have been falsified for a long time and that there is a lot of evidence. So it refers to them with an eye on other sources. Moreover, many sources are destroyed or hidden behind seven seals.

[kalibr]

Quote: Mengad

Most of these sources to which you refer have been falsified for a long time.

How do you know that? Are you a candidate of historical sciences, associate professor or doctor of sciences, and the topic of your research is the falsification of historical monuments? Very interesting! Write to us here about your discoveries.

[Mengad]

Quote: Uncle Murzik

only it is not clear under such good "conditions" of life, life expectancy in pre-revolutionary Russia was 30 years !. In India, during the rule of the British, the average life expectancy of Hindus was 30 years, while the British in this country at that time lived up to 65 years. In tsarist Russia in 1897, the average life expectancy for men was recorded at 31,4 years, in 1913 - 32 years!

Well yes but I think why this is my grandfather was born in 1897 and died in 1979.

[Nikolay82]

how can you write a textbook so that everyone would accept it. If the society is split and there are simply no points of contact. If the collapse of the USSR is accepted by some as an apocalypse by others as a staircase to heaven. The war in Chechnya, there are so many blank spots and no connections with the official versions. The author uses the presentation of the material, supposedly reflects the real picture. About income, about holidays, etc. What is the salary of a worker in Russia now? There are 5 thousand and 200 thousand, which historian will choose? Prices for products, which region will indicate? So about salaries in the USSR, someone writes that less than 200 people did not have salaries (in good enterprises it was). Leberasts, all as one for 80 - 120 "plowed into the bloody regime"

[Mengad]

Authoritative historians write our history on which they often press. We read Wiki: Andrei Yuryevich Bogolyubsky (d. June 29, 1174) - Prince Vyshgorodsky (1149, 1155), Dorogobuzhsky (1150-1151), Ryazansky (1153), Grand Prince Vladimir ( 1157-1174). The son of Yuri Vladimirovich (Dolgoruky) and the Polovtsian princess, daughter of Khan Aepa Osenevich. Holy Russian Orthodox Church; memory: July 4 (17) and in the Cathedrals of Vladimir and Volyn Saints.
Recent finds: A scientific discovery was made during the restoration of the Transfiguration Cathedral in Pereslavl-Zalessky, Yaroslavl region, RIA Novosti reports with reference to the press service of the Institute of Archeology of the Russian Academy of Sciences. A unique inscription with the names of the prince's killers was found and is being studied by Moscow epigraphists - a professor at the Higher School of Economics Alexei Gippius and a researcher at the Institute of Slavic Studies of the Russian Academy of Sciences Savva Mikheev. This is the oldest dated written monument of North-Eastern Russia.
The inscription, which mentions the murder almost 850 years ago, was found exactly in the middle of the southern apse of the cathedral. It is made in two columns, surrounded by a common frame with a cross on top. The left column contains a complete list of the names of Andrei Bogolyubsky's killers, their curse and several lines that have not yet been read, and the right one contains a short message about the murder. The right column says: "In the month of June 29, Prince Andrey was killed by his parobki (servants), ovoy eternal memory, and this is eternal torment." The text cannot be read further. According to Alexei Gippius, the phrase "to the ovoy (that is, to the prince) is eternal memory, and the sim (to the conspirators) is eternal torment" suggests that the inscription was made after the execution.

The left column contains a list of murderers of about 20 names. The first three names are known from the chronicle - they are Pyotr Kuchkov, son-in-law of Andrei Bogolyubsky, his brothers Ambal and Yakim Kuchkovichi. Then a significant part of the text was lost, and at the end there are three names that were not known: Ivka, Petrko and Styryata. The latter name may be a nickname derived from the word "butt" (steering paddle). Further, a curse is written against the killers, and the end of the column remains unread for now.

Scientists still cannot answer the question why the inscription dedicated to the murder of Andrei Bogolyubsky is in Pereslavl. After all, the prince was killed in Bogolyubov, and the capital of the principality was the city of Vladimir.
-https: //www.newsru.com/crime/29dec2015/listmurdbogolubsky.html

[Mengad]

Quote: kalibr

Quote: Mengad

Most of these sources to which you refer have been falsified for a long time.

How do you know that? Are you a candidate of historical sciences, associate professor or doctor of sciences, and the topic of your research is the falsification of historical monuments? Very interesting! Write to us here about your discoveries.

You with your crusts with protected desserts built on hypotheses are better shut up.
Here is just an example of how you work hand in hand with archaeologists, so-called professional historians
A XNUMXth-century Italian-built temple was found in the Vladimir region
link http://www.mk.ru/social/2015/04/29/vo-vladimirskoy-oblasti-otkopali-khram-12-vek


a.html
PS According to some reports:Despite the importance of the find, the portal will have to fall asleep. At least until the issue of preservation of a valuable architectural monument is considered, it cannot be opened for public viewing.
These are our Academic historians who write history to us crunching that he is a doctor of history.

[kalibr]

And I don’t need to poke, rudeness has never been an argument. Internet links are not authoritative for me ... their journalists do, and how do I know. You refer to something more substantial.

[Pavel1]

Quote: Mengad

A XNUMXth-century Italian-built temple was found in the Vladimir region
link //www.mk.ru/social/2015/04/29/vo-vladimirskoy-oblasti-otkopali-khram-12-vek

the Italians built everything for us, and the Russian wild barbarians — almost the animals themselves could not put down the stove, they had to learn them, all kinds of German stoves and Dutch ovens, otherwise they would have frozen without Europe ...

[Mwg]

Srach in the comments clearly illustrates why they will never write a real story. For - too many historians))))

[Mengad]

Quote: MVG

Srach in the comments clearly illustrates why they will never write a real story. For - too many historians))))

People want to know the truth, and discussions ... nothing, truth is born in a dispute

[kalibr]

In a dispute, truth is born only with the same level of preparation of the debaters. It does not make sense to argue the turner with the baker about the paintings of Utrillo.

[Rivares]

Quote: Mengad

People want to know the truth, and discussions ... nothing, truth is born in a dispute

A compromise is born in a dispute)

[kalibr]

That is right. Why haven’t they buried Lenin so far? That is why!

[Lyubopyatov]

An objective, truthful textbook of the history of the Fatherland is possible both in principle and in practice, but NOT UNDER THE AUTHORITY OF THE Trotskyists. Trotskyist revenge took place in 1953/56 (the first act) and in 1991/93. (second act). As a result, from the era of political hypocrisy, we were thrown into the abyss of political economic cynicism. Abolished ideology and forbidden conscience. What can be the scientific truth with minutors like Livanov and Medinsky? Nevertheless, a history book as close to the truth as possible exists, wrote Yevgeny Spitsyn. But this textbook, published and received the recommendations of scientists, is hardly passed into the public education system. And with the current pluralism of textbooks, strangling one of the many is a matter of technology for an official.

[Mengad]

Quote: kalibr

And I don’t need to poke, rudeness has never been an argument. Internet links are not authoritative for me ... their journalists do, and how do I know. You refer to something more substantial.

Essentially nothing to say? Well, could you comment? what's weak? Well, where are we for the slaves to you, the historian of reputable without a piece of paper We are all ,, stupid people ,, and ,, stupid youngsters ,,

[kalibr]

Quote: Mengad

Well, where are we for the serfs before you, the historian of reputable without a piece of paper? We are all ,, stupid people ,, and ,, stupid youngsters ,,

I always liked people who could be critical of themselves. You are absolutely right.

[Mengad]

Quote: kalibr

Imagine! And there is no cynicism or duplicity here! When there was one information - "thought so "and honestly carried out the assigned work. Then I received other information, I thought. Then in the 91st everything collapsed and they did not ask me. But ... the opportunity was opened to receive information previously inaccessible. I thought again. And that’s it - the communist games were over.

I suspect that in your writings..there is an extra word..this word .. ,, thought,

[Mengad]

Quote: kalibr

In a dispute, truth is born only with the same level of preparation of the debaters. It does not make sense to argue the turner with the baker about the paintings of Utrillo.

No need to argue. The truth is not in the profession, the truth is in the truth.

[kalibr]

I don't know if you remember, but a few years ago it was reported on TV that Ukraine had stopped supplying salt to Russia. And it was true. How did it end? The prices for salt - despite the fact that we have it at least one place, have risen in a week ... well, very high. Then everything resolved. But someone made great money on this! It was true. Archaeologist Leonard Woolley found the tomb of Princess Shubad. And it was true. But instead of restoring her face from the skull ... he dressed his wife in the found treasures and ... for a long time everyone believed that this was "Princess Shubad". Then, however, this "truth" was revealed. In one issue of Pravda it was written - Tukhachevsky from the peasants. Three months later he was arrested and "Pravda" wrote - "the son of a landowner." Those who noticed this and spoke aloud ... were imprisoned. So truth and truth are things ... complicated. And when you have a toothache, to whom will you go "for the truth"? To a professional! And where is this truth of yours then?

[Al1977]

But what about the latest history? About Putin, for example?
Can his work be "objectively" evaluated now?

[kalibr]

And with the latest history in general "quarantines". If there are no pending documents, then research cannot be carried out, because newspaper news and TV news sources are dubious. You can quote the words of the president, but there is a problem with the documents. They are in the current archives. But getting there is even more difficult than the usual ones. So it is even more difficult to assess the present day objectively.

[Mengad]

Quote: Rurik

I believe that the main question is not in the history textbook, but in the teacher, in their ability and desire to give an objective assessment of certain events. Only this is a question about the quality of training of specialists in ped. Universities, which is steadily and annually declining.

The logic is iron ... and what lies there in history textbooks doesn’t it? The main thing is to hammer the students correctly. I apologize but this is .. at least silly.

[Igor V]

But students also need a textbook!

[Mengad]

Quote: tacet

"under him, hired foreigners wrote the history of the Russian state .."
It’s about how Miller’s work “On the Origin of the People and the Name of the Russian” was yelled by academician-astronomer Nikita Petrov. “You, Miller, the shame of our science!” He yelled. And as the wing of a "German pest" a talented national nugget from Arkhangelsk, Mikhailo Lomonosov, who imagines himself a great historian! Academics, stopudovo, would also break Miller’s sides. But he was a man of great physical strength and excellent fearlessness. In addition, armed with a sword, relying on academics in form. Therefore, the learned brethren, fearing that a German trained in fencing, would tear their bellies, even if they dare to attack him en masse, simply attacked the president of the Academy of Sciences, HETMAN Kirill Razumovsky, by laying down the BEST TRADITIONS of Russian historical science. Can't argue with your opponent? Accuse him of anti-Russian, anti-Ukrainian or anti-Soviet. In a word, in rejection of the official political course. However, in the West this is also a little better. God forbid in Europe and the United States to get among those who are considered "politically incorrect." This is a terrible "crime"!
What is so terrible that academician Miller told his colleagues? But just the fact that Kievan Rus was founded NOT by the Slavs, but by the Vikings who sailed from Sweden. Their Nestor the Chronicler called in the "Tale of Bygone Years" "Varangians." “And the Russian land was nicknamed from those Varangians,” he wrote in The Tale of Bygone Years.
But the president of the Academy of Sciences, Kirill Razumovsky, the son of a swineherd from a village near Kiev, did not understand any sciences. He became the head of the Academy and the hetman of Ukraine only because he was the brother of the lover of Empress Elizabeth Petrovna - Alexei Razumovsky, the same son of a swineherd and a specialist in singing.
Like a big gentleman (from the boor - pan), the hetman-academician did not personally understand anything. This distracted him from playing cards and amorous feats. He instructed the author of the denunciation, Mikhail Lomonosov, to investigate the Varangian issue. And he came to the conclusion that Miller’s report is offensive to subjects of the Russian Empire.
“If we assume that Rurik and his descendants, who owned Russia, were of a Swedish family,” Lomonosov urged Razumovsky, “then they won’t be able to deduce from which a dangerous consequence ... It will be very annoying and disappointing for Russian listeners” ... You see how you were worried about us with you!
After that, Academician Miller was forbidden to deal with the origin of Russia, and his report was destroyed. Until the end of his life, Miller (and he lived a lot - almost 80 years!) Studied the history of the discovery of Siberia.
Text- "Dokievskaya Rus" Oles Buzina

What kind of nonsense are you talking about? And didn’t you think that Lomonosov had such arguments against the versions of the history of Russia and Russia proposed by Miller, Schletser, and Byr? That this played a decisive role in closing this issue and lowering Miller? Well, do you represent this one way? but kindly provide me with a version of Miller’s opponent ... Lomonosov? what not? no memories? Gone? this is pity (irony).

[Mengad]

Quote: kalibr

I don't know if you remember, but a few years ago it was reported on TV that Ukraine had stopped supplying salt to Russia. And it was true. How did it end? The prices for salt - despite the fact that we have it at least one place, have risen in a week ... well, very high. Then everything resolved. But someone made great money on this! It was true. Archaeologist Leonard Woolley found the tomb of Princess Shubad. And it was true. But instead of restoring her face from the skull ... he dressed his wife in the found treasures and ... for a long time everyone believed that this was "Princess Shubad". Then, however, this "truth" was revealed. In one issue of Pravda it was written - Tukhachevsky from the peasants. Three months later he was arrested and "Pravda" wrote - "the son of a landowner." Those who noticed this and spoke aloud ... were imprisoned. So truth and truth are things ... complicated. And when you have a toothache, to whom will you go "for the truth"? To a professional! And where is this truth of yours then?

Respected? You often use terms of MATERIAL nature with spiritual ones, these are two different things ... it looks like: who has the gun is right. In this case, the gun is the material components and the word truth is spiritual.

[kalibr]

And everything spiritual is immanent to the material, this is the main question of philosophy. A thought cannot yet be transferred from one’s head to a USB flash drive, but not one of your spiritual thoughts will be visible unless you tap it on the clave. So the abstract, spiritual truth simply does not exist. There are always its material carriers - who, what, when, to whom, why.

[Mengad]

Quote: kalibr

And with the latest history in general "quarantines". If there are no pending documents, then research cannot be carried out, because newspaper news and TV news sources are dubious. You can quote the words of the president, but there is a problem with the documents. They are in the current archives. But getting there is even more difficult than the usual ones. So it is even more difficult to assess the present day objectively.

In general, academic historians often abuse their title and put pressure on their authority (which is often abused) and often play with terminology. Based on the fact that they are right and that’s all. But if you look at this more soberly...then our history should have the name “Theoretical History”! On the basis that, as historians like to say and assert, this is a FACT! No, this is not a fact, but a theory, an assumption, but not as not a fact without any interpretation. Then, when naming a history textbook with your own name... a person will perceive it correctly and will not be mistaken! At the same time, when new research, finds, excavations or facts appear, you can calmly reconsider this or that episode in history. While a historian is looking for the truth, he is a historian... but how did he stop... (insert the right word) This is purely my opinion.

[kalibr]

Quote: Mengad

While a historian is looking for the truth, he is a historian... but how did he stop... (insert the right word) This is purely my opinion.

But here you are absolutely right. Search for its truth, work in archives, rummage in the ground, think about what you have dug up, right? But, it seems to me, that’s all I do. Have you read my other materials here? Look through your profile. There is not a single article in which the materials would not have links to various sources. I even indicate newspaper numbers and give links to archival files. And if I don’t give it, they are still there.

[Mengad]

Quote: kalibr

Thoughts cannot yet be transferred from your head to a flash drive, but not a single spiritual thought of yours will be visible

I disagree! We can copy the thought onto a flash drive, in this case this forum serves me as a flash drive, as you put it, I express my THOUGHT on this forum in this text. But a spiritual thought? In my opinion... this is a thought originated in the soul of a person and who has taken any physical action. (Please note that by spirituality I mean good deeds)

[kalibr]

But good deeds are also material...

[OlegLex]

And now pay attention to the epigraph number 3. This also applies to the textbook, right? After all, if we begin to truthfully write about the heavy share of Russian peasants and workers, it turns out that the poverty of the former, and the latter, too, had its cause ... deep religiosity of those and others. There were so many holidays of pagan times, which later remained hidden, during which people did not work! For example, 24 of June celebrated Ivan Kupala under the cover of the day of John the Baptist, and on July 27 honored the holy martyr Panteleimon, and at the same time celebrated the summer solstice and, naturally, it was impossible to work these days. They honored Kirik's day (not to become crippled), Rusaliya (to atone for infants who died without baptism), St. Foki’s day (from fire), Simeon the Stylite’s day (so that the sky he supports does not fall to the ground), St. Nikita (for rabies), St. Procopius Day (against drought), St. Harlamp Day (against the plague), well, etc. Abundance of holidays was beneficial to whom? To the priests, because on holidays they were “carried” —which had five eggs, some had lard, some who were “little red,” so their reduction could not be considered.
The purpose of the peasant economy was to get food, not profit, although our peasants themselves were not at all as lazy and undeveloped as others say, otherwise they simply could not live. A different attitude to work, the “acquisition of wealth” seemed to them incompatible with the divine commandments, while the holiday was considered a godly deed! But the numbers that anyone can check by picking up a regular and church calendar:

BALANCE OF WORKING AND UNABLE DAYS IN THE MIDDLE 19 - THE BEGINNING OF 20 V.: 1850-ies. - 135 working days, non-working (total) - 230;
1872 g. - 125 working days, non-working (total) - 240; 1902 - 107, and 258! Accordingly, the holidays were 95,105 and 123!

Question: why did the number of holidays increase? After all, there were no more church holidays? And the namesakes of the Emperor, the Empress and members of their family, because the family was growing! And all this was celebrated, that’s why there were no vacations and that’s why they worked 12 hours a day! It’s not all about celebrating, sometimes you have to work?! And if in 1913 our peasants had the same number of days off as American “farmers” (as they were called in Russia at the beginning of the twentieth century), that is, 68 instead of 135, and the money that was spent on drinking on holidays would go If it were for farming, then our country would, in a matter of years, turn into the world’s leading agricultural power!

You read and it seems offensive, but you agree, only if you turn your head on and remember that this is only the subjective opinion of the author and he writes the right things using the correct information (or accurate - although I doubt it, but only because I haven’t checked it yet)
So I won’t draw conclusions, but I will express my opinion. The author either didn’t take into account or didn’t know “???” that after Stolypin’s reform we had peasants who in Soviet times were called “kulaks” and they were believers and knew how to drink, but they were not poor and worked. And now, when the day feeds the year, we worked despite the holidays.

[kalibr]

I would advise you to read Mamin-Sibiryak’s book “Humpbacked Bear”. He writes very interestingly about just such a peasantry. And it was precisely about fists that V.I. Lenin wrote in detail in his work “The Development of Capitalism in Russia.” This will be discussed in the second part of this material.

[Kurasava]

Dear comrades! According to the article, in principle, the beginning was not bad, but when I got to the point where the workers and peasants “lived and earned very well,” I realized what kind of textbook the author of this opus would like to create. A unified history textbook is necessary and it should have been available yesterday; this (I’m not afraid to quote the greats) is extremely important and extremely necessary! And yes, this textbook should be created according to the Soviet model. It is important for children and students to develop basic general knowledge in the middle grades and then cover more clearly the most important and key events of our history in high school, such as the Battle of the Neva and Lake Peipsi, Peter’s war with the Swedes (Poltava), Suvorov’s campaigns, the Patriotic War of 1812 years, the defense of Sevastopol, the Decbrists, the Great October Revolution, the civil war, and of course the Great Patriotic War of 1941-45 and our Victory, special attention to them, these events should become the foundation holding together modern Russia and its society. There cannot be any free interpretations and vacillation left and right; there must be one clear line for all these events - (to simplify it into one sentence) our ancestors were HEROES, they fought with the enemies of the Motherland for a just cause, sacrificed their lives so that we could live now and our country was great and independent. And then for those who want more extensive and in-depth knowledge, welcome to universities for specialized study.
PS
Anticipating commentators - yes, exactly this way and no other way, we need, first of all, to be “good” for our own, and don’t care what the “civilized world” thinks, for example, one German historian generally believes that on the Kursk Bulge the Germans irretrievably lost one tank, ONE STEAL! -Why did you retreat? And we miss home)))

[kalibr]

Quote: Kurasava

for example, one German historian generally believes that on the Kursk Bulge the Germans irretrievably lost one tank, ONE STEAL! -Why did you retreat? And we miss home)))

An interesting example and not familiar to me. Could you share the source of information, what kind of book, publisher and year of publication. Well, if you indicate the page, then thank you very much.

[Rivares]

Quote: Kurasava

In the Kursk Bulge, the Germans irretrievably lost one tank, ONE STEAL! -Why did you retreat? And we miss home)))

Officially, the Germans reported in their reports that 3 tanks were lost in the Battle of Kursk.
It was on the day that the 5th tank began its offensive in the Prokhorovka region that they reported the loss of the 1st tank.
In 90, before a film about the war was shown on TV, there was an introduction by a German historian who claimed that the Wehrmacht lost 3 tanks during the Battle of Kursk. I heard this with my own ears.

[Mengad]

Quote: tacet

Oles Buzin is not a foreigner to me (we were born and raised in one country)
And yes, I am a "Normanist" for the "evidence" of other theories of Rurik's origin, to put it mildly, are not convincing.

Not convincing? or hidden and hidden? Could this be at least theoretically? At least on the basis of the fact that the war for the throne and the souls of people was present from century to century? And the winner writes history?

[kalibr]

Take an interest in the finds of swords in burials of this time. The results of metallography, finishing of handles and pommel...

[Mengad]

Quote: kalibr

But good deeds are also material...

Yes, of course, but often a person also needs spiritual help, when he simply needs someone to listen to him or support him, and this is often more important than material good deeds.

[kalibr]

You listen not to thoughts, but to speech. And you need support not mentally, but with words, and they are uttered by the material mouth, shaking the air.

[Mengad]

Quote: kalibr

Quote: Mengad

While a historian is looking for the truth, he is a historian... but how did he stop... (insert the right word) This is purely my opinion.

But here you are absolutely right. Search for its truth, work in archives, rummage in the ground, think about what you have dug up, right? But, it seems to me, that’s all I do. Have you read my other materials here? Look through your profile. There is not a single article in which the materials would not have links to various sources. I even indicate newspaper numbers and give links to archival files. And if I don’t give it, they are still there.

I'll definitely take a look. Thank you.

[Mengad]

Quote: kalibr

You listen not to thoughts, but to speech. And you need support not mentally, but with words, and they are uttered by the material mouth, shaking the air.

You are right in your own way. BUT! In order to formulate a word and pronounce it, you need to have a certain set of knowledge in one or another field of human activity, and human knowledge, which in turn is formed in the brain from the above components. But I don’t agree with you about air concussion. After all, when the mouth pronounces a word, it is a physical frequency and vibration, which, in turn, reaching the interlocutor through the ear, produces an impulse throughout the entire body, which can lead, depending on the high or low clock frequency, to a person’s behavior, either aggressive or calm. Well, if you look the effect of sound waves on water, and what is water? What I mean is that a person consists of 50-60% water, so in fact, roughly speaking, the word has almost a magical meaning.

[Mengad]

Quote: kalibr

Quote: Kurasava

for example, one German historian generally believes that on the Kursk Bulge the Germans irretrievably lost one tank, ONE STEAL! -Why did you retreat? And we miss home)))

An interesting example and not familiar to me. Could you share the source of information, what kind of book, publisher and year of publication. Well, if you indicate the page, then thank you very much.

Well, I don’t know about one tank, but some personalities really cause surprise, a certain Mr. Sokolov, Boris Vadimovich link to Wikipedia https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokolov,_Boris_Vadimovich
you read his interpretation and how much misinformation he contributed with his labors.

[tatra]

And what a blatant liar this Sokolov is, in order to pick up the “43 million” Soviet people who died in the Great Patriotic War, whom the enemies of the communists wrote down as “victims of Stalin”, and not the Nazis and their accomplices from among the citizens of the USSR, who are considered “national” by the current enemies of the communists heroes,” Sokolov exaggerated the population of the USSR at the beginning of the war, and underestimated it at the end of the war.

[oking]

Quote: tatra

And what a blatant liar this Sokolov is, to pick up the “43 million” Soviet people who died in the Great Patriotic War

Another illiterate idiot who was never able to master the meaning of the terms “direct loss” and “indirect loss”.

[Mengad]

Quote: wks

The fact that historians writing textbooks need to stop composing historical facts, as well as hush up real events, is undeniable. But the fact is that these people do not themselves publish what they wrote. Politically engaged state officials help them in this. So they are the main reason for distortion and silence. On the other hand, there are so many white spots in History that without fantastic assumptions it is impossible to comprehend it, therefore, how many people historians can have so many historical textbooks.

One future "Doctor of History" already exists - this is the one who defended dissertation justifying Vlasov!But it wasn’t even this that killed me...but this: March 2016[7] at the St. Petersburg Institute of History of the Russian Academy of Sciences (SPbII) I defended my doctoral dissertation “Generals and officer cadres of the armed formations of the Committee for the Liberation of the Peoples of Russia 1943-1946.” , which received conflicting reviews from the scientific community[8][9]. The defense of the dissertation itself caused an unprecedented resonance among the scientific community and the public. “I have not seen such a gathering of people during 40 years of work at the institute,” noted St. Petersburg Institute Director N. N. Smirnov[8]. Professor A. N. Tsamutali acted as a scientific consultant for the work. On the same day, the dissertation council of the institute awarded Aleksandrov the degree of Doctor of Science. 17 votes to one (five council members were absent)[8][10][11]!!! and here is our future AUTHORITY in person. wiki https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandrov,_Kirill_Mikhail

[kalibr]

Why can’t this topic be studied? Or is the valor of these people in battles with the Red Army glorified? Or their collaborationist activities are being considered. What bothers you? Or have you read the text of the work? As for the work on Vlasov, I cannot say anything, I have not read it. But do you know for sure that he is justified in it? If it is justified, what evidence does the author provide? This is what is important, and not what journalists write who have not read anything themselves.

[tatra]

The enemies of the communists always justify both their crimes and those who benefit them by the fact that those or that against whom or what they committed crimes were bad.
They slandered the communists, and use this to justify any crimes, including their seizure of the USSR and everything they did after 1991.

[Reptiloid]

Good morning everyone! This article probably received the largest number of comments.
I constantly feel a lack of knowledge about the history of our Motherland and try to read more. And my thoughts are like this - everyone began to study history with the history of the Ancient World. Distant countries, mythology, customs - everything is like in fairy tales! True, the previous year was the history of the Motherland region without a textbook. But it’s as if it never existed. Or maybe it’s worth starting the study of history with some significant moments of Russian history? With geographical discoveries, inventions, discoveries in science? With what is unambiguous? So that a “minor” student there was immediately a clearly positive picture so that there would be no disputes among adults or discrepancies in textbooks about these events in Russian history.
What next? I haven’t figured it out yet. Thanks for the topic, Vyacheslav Olegovich.

[Mengad]

Quote: kalibr

Why can’t this topic be studied? Or is the valor of these people in battles with the Red Army glorified? Or their collaborationist activities are being considered. What bothers you? Or have you read the text of the work? As for the work on Vlasov, I cannot say anything, I have not read it. But do you know for sure that he is justified in it? If it is justified, what evidence does the author provide? This is what is important, and not what journalists write who have not read anything themselves.

It is possible and necessary to study this topic! Please tell me, do you justify the actions of a commander who, out of his duty, had to defend his Motherland and his home? Who was not captured at gunpoint, but surrendered HIMSELF? Answer, what does their commander represent to a soldier? In my opinion opinion and concept, roughly speaking, this is the father in whom they believe, look up to and will follow him even into the fire! And if you took on this role, then be a man and do not lose the faith of your sons. He betrayed his sons, betrayed the Motherland that nurtured him, abandoned them and surrendered to the Nazis.

[Tishka]

Of course, I apologize, I’m not a historian by training, but maybe in the new textbook it’s worth giving this and that and others, so to speak, to give children the opportunity to consider the event from different points of view, and draw their own conclusions! At the same time, we will teach children to think independently, without relying on dogma, that this professor said this, and this is the only true opinion, and when he was caught in a lie, the opinion of another historian became the only true and correct one! There must be objectivity in everything, and when the ruling regime changes, you won’t have to once again correct the textbook for the new ruler!

[1536]

“I don’t know who wrote it, but I read it.” This concept has always been included in Russian history textbooks since the time of Karamzin, and since the heyday of the Prosveshchenie publishing house.
And schoolchildren should not be given facts about when which tank was released on the battlefield, but the concept of the state and the country in which he lives, which gives him the education that he is going to defend, where he is going to live and work. This is the only way to instill in a little person both love for the Motherland and its past, and indicate the future to which one must strive. Instill pride in this past, in the exploits of their fathers, grandfathers and great-grandfathers, so that a person knows that he will be no worse than them.
Therefore, if everything is not clear with the state, if the country itself has not yet determined what is what, if no one gives anything to anyone, and everyone is just trying to get, if there is basically nothing to protect, and you are going to live in England or in Silicon Valley, then in this case it is better to generally replace history with entertaining stories about certain events, myths and stories about our good rulers: princes, kings, the chairman of the Council of People's Commissars (!), general secretaries and presidents. Because, whatever one may say, if they were all wrong, then today we would consider ourselves victors in all wars and revolutions, we could resist “the entire civilized world” in upholding the truth, we would call black black and white white ? And the words of the national anthem would probably be: “Russia has not yet perished...” (And whether it would have existed then, this anthem, is a big question.) This would eliminate many of the above-mentioned problems both with the state and in the state.
I would like to further quote the author: “Although not all archives are open today. For example, many military archives are again classified until 2045. So I personally won’t have to write anything based on them!” And add: And thank God! Forget, good gentlemen, about archives, especially departmental ones. They were not created for you, and it is not for you to work in them, looking for confirmation there of your thoughts that suddenly came to mind. Leave history as science and historians as scientists. After all, you don’t go into space without spacesuits, and it’s still better for a synchrophasotron to be launched by a physicist with a doctorate in physical and mathematical sciences, and not by a school teacher. After all, if an accident occurs at a nuclear power plant, they begin to blame physicists, but if they throw an information bomb at society, concocted from data specially selected in archives, it is taken for granted, as a revelation. What's the difference? It is not yet known as a result of which the degree of damage to the people will ultimately be greater.

[zenion]

So there is a history of the Russian state, even in poetry. A.K. Tolstoy "History of the Russian State from Gostmysl to the present day." Read, educate yourself. Since the time the marked one came to power, nothing has changed for the Russian people.