Military Review

In the Rubin Central Design Bureau announced the creation of the newest power plant for the submarine "Kalina"

156
The creation of an air-independent power plant (VNEU) for 5 submarines of the Kalina project is completed, leads RIA News Excerpt from the report of the Rubin Central Design Bureau for 2015

In the Rubin Central Design Bureau announced the creation of the newest power plant for the submarine "Kalina"


Earlier, the director of the Central Design Bureau Igor Vilnit reported that the sea tests of the VNEU should be conducted in 2016.

"As part of the research work" Kalina-Navy "successfully completed work to create a VNEU for non-nuclear submarines," the report says.

According to the designers, “the main advantage of an air-independent power plant is an increase in the secrecy of the submarine and the ability of the submarine to be under water without ascent to charge the batteries.”

As a source in the Navy told the agency, the newest submarine “Kalina” will be laid in 2018.

“The project“ Kalina ”is absolutely relevant for us, this project must be very successful. The head boat will be laid in 2018 year, ”said the source.

It is assumed that the construction of the boat will be engaged in "Admiralty Shipyards."

Help Agency: “The VNEU of the Russian development is fundamentally different from foreign analogues by the method of hydrogen production. In order not to carry high-purity hydrogen on board the submarine, the installation provides for the production of hydrogen in the amount of consumption using diesel fuel reforming. ”
Photos used:
RIA News. Alexey Danichev
156 comments
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  1. oleg-gr
    oleg-gr 29 June 2016 12: 25
    +24
    Perfectly. Soon boats of a new design and a new generation will appear.
    1. Starover_Z
      Starover_Z 29 June 2016 12: 31
      +22
      The Russian Ivan was bothering you, they wanted him to share his resources with you, thought to intimidate ?!
      You only annoyed him and now you have to seriously communicate with Russia!
      1. Khariton
        Khariton 29 June 2016 12: 35
        +4
        Well, how to build it and write ...! Nerves do not need to be battered ...
        1. lelikas
          lelikas 29 June 2016 12: 57
          +21
          Quote: Chariton
          Well, how to build it and write ...! Nerves do not need to be battered ...

          Strange, but here I agree with you completely and completely.
          Before that, they could not create a normally working engine, they were tormented with a stand (even they could not really get it to work) and then bam - it turns out that already half a year ago, we finished the work and we have a ready engine.
          Vague doubts torment me. (WITH)
          1. goose
            goose 29 June 2016 13: 56
            +6
            In general, I wonder why hydrocarbon reforming has proven to be more profitable. As a first approximation, there is definitely no mass, just because of fire safety?
            No matter how much I thought, until I see the reasons.
            1. Forever so
              Forever so 29 June 2016 15: 38
              +6
              There were other proposals, but hydrocarbon reform proved to be the safest, most compact, technologically advanced and non-waste.
              1. Azitral
                Azitral 1 July 2016 09: 26
                0
                Where is the carbon going, I wonder? And in what form? And - even fuel cells need oxygen. Some lie. It was said: "It turned out to be a paradox that the best heat source for non-nuclear submarines based on the Stirling engine turned out to be isotopic heat sources." Translated into Russian - some piece of plutonium with a constant temperature of 900 degrees (as in an American probe) - or something just a little more complicated.
            2. Nick
              Nick 29 June 2016 20: 36
              +4
              Quote: goose
              In general, I wonder why hydrocarbon reforming has proven to be more profitable. As a first approximation, there is definitely no mass, just because of fire safety?
              No matter how much I thought, until I see the reasons.

              You probably forgot about the mass of pressure vessels, because hydrogen is stored in a compressed state. In a standard gas cylinder 60 kg of weight, when fully charged with oxygen at a pressure of 160-170 atm, its weight will be approximately 80 kg, and hydrogen is noticeably lighter than oxygen. Draw conclusions. hi
            3. the most important
              the most important 1 July 2016 16: 05
              +4
              Quote: goose
              In general, I wonder why hydrocarbon reforming has proven to be more profitable. As a first approximation, there is definitely no mass, just because of fire safety?
              No matter how much I thought, until I see the reasons.

              A barrel under diesel fuel is much lighter than a vessel under gaseous oxygen or hydrogen ... try to raise the oxygen cylinder and thoughts will immediately rush to the right track!
          2. midivan
            midivan 29 June 2016 15: 50
            +15
            Quote: lelikas
            Before that, they could not create a normally working engine, they were tormented with a stand (even they could not really get it to work) and then bam - it turns out that already half a year ago, we finished the work and we have a ready engine.
            Vague doubts torment me.

            have you noticed such a trend? there was no army, little green men "took" the Crimea, there were no tanks and the T-90 began to "become obsolete", - give you armature, and so on, etc., in my opinion, very good tactics, we have nothing but in the right moment and Caliber flies on smile as your prayers say "partners"
            1. lelikas
              lelikas 29 June 2016 22: 39
              +8
              Well, at the expense of the army, they started remaking it well from 08,08,08, Armata was also done not in a year, and everything, in general, was well-known, with Caliber - until it was made a fashionable trend and began to shove in all possible places - the bulk of the population, it did not care for its range, not the main and so knew (+ -500km). More surprising is Zircon, about which everyone has calmed down recently.
              But the trend is definitely pleasing!
            2. spech
              spech 30 June 2016 18: 19
              +1
              there was no army, little green men "took" the Crimea, there were no tanks and the T-90 began to "become obsolete", - give you armature, and so on, etc., in my opinion, very good tactics, we have nothing but the right moment and Caliber flies further smile as your prayers say "partners"

              Surprise always come unexpectedly bully
          3. kirieeleyson
            kirieeleyson 29 June 2016 21: 08
            +3
            The reason for the delay was sanctions, but now they have found an option, or the import substitution the notorious still fired. The situation is the same with the movers and power plants of NPO Saturn, so there is about one trend here. VNEU really turned out to be delicate, foreign industrial spies swarm swarm for half a year already. Yes, only a bullet to them in the temple and in the basement to drag, just in case.
            1. Yarhann
              Yarhann 2 July 2016 10: 58
              +1
              VNEU sawed a lot of dollars and before the sanctions, just now the campaign was finally finished. In general, what interests me the most about this thing is its cost because looking at German boats with VNEK and their price, it would be cheaper if the nuclear submarines of the same size come out with incomparable autonomy and speed.
              In short, this is to say that for me it’s better for my army to build a nuclear submarine, and for the protection of the coastal zone ordinary cheap diesel engines will do, that's all.
          4. Alex777
            Alex777 29 June 2016 22: 40
            +3
            Quote: lelikas
            Quote: Chariton
            Well, how to build it and write ...! Nerves do not need to be battered ...

            Strange, but here I agree with you completely and completely.
            Before that, they could not create a normally working engine, they were tormented with a stand (even they could not really get it to work) and then bam - it turns out that already half a year ago, we finished the work and we have a ready engine.
            Vague doubts torment me. (WITH)


            Over the past six months, a lot of things have been secretly deaf.
            On this topic, for example, they do not build Lada, then they build.
            If you did the installation - this is a major breakthrough.
            And, of course, a reason to rejoice!
          5. KaPToC
            KaPToC 30 June 2016 00: 25
            +6
            Quote: lelikas
            Vague doubts torment me.

            This is generally characteristic of our defense industry, they will become poor, screaming that everything is bad, and then bam ... a man in space.
          6. Idiot
            Idiot 30 June 2016 08: 54
            +5
            Quote: lelikas
            Vague doubts torment me. (WITH)


            As far as I know, our development allows us to do without a transportable supply of hydrogen, i.e. it is more technological than western.
            1. Boa kaa
              Boa kaa 30 June 2016 21: 52
              +8
              Quote: pft, fkb
              our development allows us to do without a transportable supply of hydrogen, i.e. it is more technological than western.

              1. The "transportable hydrogen supply" is in a bound form in diesel fuel.
              2. We and the United States followed the path of creating a VNU on the basis of diesel fuel reforming. The rest of them looked at Stirling. Japans are evading towards LIAB. However, our installation, judging by the statement of the director of CDB "Rubin" Igor Vilnit, this year will be tested at sea. Really back on the Sorov? For the only "failed non-nuclear submarine" suitable for this is "St. Petersburg". This means that it will be returned to the shipyard and the VNU will be installed. Or they will equip a new case (it is preferable and most likely it will be so).
              3. There is no doubt that the installation is "more technological". But it is also more economical in operation: there is no need to build an onshore infrastructure for the production, storage and liquefaction of hydrogen. And this is a whole plant, which in a threatened period can "accidentally" explode ... Then - sushi oars: "there will be no kin!"

              The main thing - let them build "Kalina" with VNU, and then we'll see who has brighter feathers and longer tusks!

              And it looks like the very element in which the reform of the diesel fuel is going
          7. dima mzk
            dima mzk 30 June 2016 10: 03
            -4
            and who exactly are you to receive a full report on development and testing? all under the stamp and with criminal liability, he read go go seagull. already there, and on the stands they experience a lot of things, and not the fact that everything is perfect the first time
        2. Homo
          Homo 29 June 2016 14: 12
          0
          Quote: Chariton
          Well, how to build it and write ...! Nerves do not need to be battered ...

          As you can offer something smart, so write. There is nothing to do with idle talk!
          1. Army soldier2
            Army soldier2 29 June 2016 14: 24
            +11
            Khariton is targeting "marshals". He makes 35 comments a day. It is difficult to write on the case so often. Will become a "marshal" and calm down. Be patient. Not long left.
            1. Khariton
              Khariton 29 June 2016 14: 51
              0
              Quote: Army 2
              Khariton is targeting "marshals". He makes 35 comments a day. It is difficult to write on the case so often. Will become a "marshal" and calm down. Be patient. Not long left.

              No ... I was a "marshal" more than once ... Now I am writing from the bottom of my heart what I think! hi I prefer to be a sergeant. Here!
              1. joopel
                joopel 30 June 2016 12: 27
                0
                Hi Hariton. Our regiment arrived. I am also a multiple marshal. Constantly banned, hold'mord. Today I received a warning for the words cormorant and cap. Laughing out loud! Someone Vadik Smirnov moderated. Yeah, our country is on such dumbbreads and keeps. The enemy will never understand the logic of our Vadiks. laughing
            2. Roman 11
              Roman 11 29 June 2016 19: 33
              +6
              Quote: Army 2
              Khariton in "marshals" marks .....
              Will become a "marshal" and calm down

              And we thought a forum here laughing
          2. The comment was deleted.
        3. joopel
          joopel 29 June 2016 14: 32
          +5
          Yes yes, Hariton! All diseases from nerves! Only a tripper from pleasure!
        4. dima mzk
          dima mzk 30 June 2016 09: 56
          -1
          here no one wrote about the construction of the submarine, the speech about the test of the power plant, read carefully and do not carry heresy
        5. Shpagolom
          Shpagolom 30 June 2016 17: 32
          +3
          ... and what really makes you so nervous .... you know how to read .... DECLARED ABOUT CREATION .... so there are opportunities for building more hidden submarines!
        6. gav6757
          gav6757 1 July 2016 00: 25
          0
          The country's defense should be in the first place, in the present period of time!
          After many years of liberal-dermocratic oblivion, real shifts are appearing.
      2. GSH-18
        GSH-18 2 July 2016 19: 42
        0
        Well, it started, thank God! good
    2. vovanpain
      vovanpain 29 June 2016 12: 50
      +22
      The main advantage of the 5th generation Kalina boats should be an anaerobic non-volatile power plant based on a modular Stirling engine. It will make it possible to stay under water without surfacing to charge the batteries much longer than boats with a classic power plant. It is being developed by the Rubin Central Design Bureau, possibly with the participation of specialists from the Stirling Technologies Research and Design Institute. In 2016, the VNEU ground tests were completed, and in March preparations began for marine tests on a special floating stand. Tests will begin on the Baltic Sea in 2016, said Igor Vilnit, Director General of Rubin Central Design Bureau. Upon completion of the tests, and the start of serial production of power plants, they can be mounted on a submarine at any stage of construction, thanks to its modular type. The principal difference between the new VNEU and its foreign counterparts is that the hydrogen supply is not on board but is produced in the volume of consumption by reforming diesel fuel in a special installation.
      1. iConst
        iConst 29 June 2016 13: 41
        +4
        Quote: vovanpain
        by reforming diesel fuel in a special installation.

        “I only know steam catalytic conversion of hydrocarbons.” It’s not particularly important there - gasoline, kerosene, diesel fuel ... Hydrocarbons are needed.

        And vodka as a catalyst ... staff ...

        Squid ... laughing
      2. ver_
        ver_ 30 June 2016 16: 11
        +3
        ... it’s not at all a fact that there will be a Stirling engine .. For ships with a Stirling propeller shaft, this is good, because it has low revolutions, and for an electric motor it is not very .. There may well be a turbine. It has long been written that the electric motor had troubles - it did not give out power ..
      3. Boa kaa
        Boa kaa 30 June 2016 22: 18
        +4
        Quote: vovanpain
        The fundamental difference between the new VNEU and its foreign counterparts is that the hydrogen supply is not on board but is produced in the volume of consumption by reforming diesel fuel in a special installation.

        Our VNU has nothing to do with Stirling. Hydrogen is produced for a direct chemical reaction with the formation of water and the extraction of electricity for the operation of a single ED, as well as for tamping the battery in a submerged position. Most likely, the boat will go under the AB to "jump". And patrolling - at the VNU with battery charging.
        The main difficulties were not only with the "reactor", but also with a single ED. It looks like the crisis is over.
        IMHO.
    3. demchuk.ig
      demchuk.ig 29 June 2016 13: 15
      +1
      Quote: oleg-gr
      Perfectly. Soon boats of a new design and a new generation will appear.

      But what about the widely advertised "Lada"? Did she suffer and still die? It's a pity!
    4. joopel
      joopel 29 June 2016 14: 31
      +1
      Great news. Well, pessimists, you were whining here that everything was gone! What everyone has, and we have as always! Varshavyanka last century, and stolen viburnum! Patience gentlemen, patience. We will have everything. On time and to pleapration!
      1. mav1971
        mav1971 29 June 2016 15: 48
        +1
        Quote: joopel
        Great news. Well, pessimists, you were whining here that everything was gone! What everyone has, and we have as always! Varshavyanka last century, and stolen viburnum! Patience gentlemen, patience. We will have everything. On time and to pleapration!


        There will be no time.
        It was already in time.
        And it was 15 years ago.

        And think about why those who have been using anaerobic installations on combat boats for several years, so to speak, "have already eaten the dog," will eventually switch to batteries of updated lithium technologies?

        So why should we again go on a foreign path if VNEU is not a panacea, as it turns out?
        Why step on the same rake. which have already been attacked by the Swedes, Germans, Japanese?

        Russian way again?

        Well, let's be smarter, skip this step and go straight to lithium batteries ...
        1. Dart2027
          Dart2027 29 June 2016 21: 22
          0
          Quote: mav1971
          will eventually switch to batteries of updated lithium technologies

          All boats have batteries. I do not quite understand what you mean.
        2. Idiot
          Idiot 30 June 2016 09: 14
          0
          Quote: mav1971
          There will be no time.
          It was already in time.
          And it was 15 years ago.


          The diesel-electric submarines existing today in the Russian Navy absolutely correspond to the tasks assigned to them. And they continue to be built. The main weapon of the submarine is stealth. Deep-sea circumnavigations by the Russian Navy are not planned. I will now name an underdeveloped country that does not have the technology of creating a VNEU - the United States.
          1. mav1971
            mav1971 30 June 2016 14: 23
            -1
            Quote: pft, fkb
            Quote: mav1971
            There will be no time.
            It was already in time.
            And it was 15 years ago.


            The diesel-electric submarines existing today in the Russian Navy absolutely correspond to the tasks assigned to them. And they continue to be built. The main weapon of the submarine is stealth. Deep-sea circumnavigations by the Russian Navy are not planned. I will now name an underdeveloped country that does not have the technology of creating a VNEU - the United States.


            In fact, it is customary for Russians not to put a cart before a horse!
            Accordingly, the tasks are set only those that are achievable by the means that are available.
            Those. no one in our Navy will put a diesel-electric submarine, a task peculiar to a nuclear submarine ...

            And just like that, the tasks, for example, the Soryu boat with VNEU, are set for it taking into account its abilities and capabilities, in accordance with the displacement, cruising range, autonomy of the underwater, etc.
          2. Boa kaa
            Boa kaa 30 June 2016 22: 43
            +5
            Quote: pft, fkb
            I will now name an underdeveloped country that does not have the technology of creating a VNEU - the United States.

            With all the dislike for the Yankees, one must remain objective.
            The shtatniks handed over all their achievements on the VNU (almost ready) to the japanes, they also helped the South Caucasus. They themselves are working on the same topic as us: the direct generation of electricity from a chemical reaction.
            As for technology, we are still far from being "partners" ...
        3. Boa kaa
          Boa kaa 30 June 2016 22: 33
          +3
          Quote: mav1971
          So why do we again have to go on a different path,

          Why did you get this?
          We go our own way: by a chemical reaction we get not mechanical (Stirling) but electrical energy for the operation of the CED.
          Quote: mav1971
          let's go to lithium batteries ..
          And they are also involved in this area. And, they say, very successfully (* we have eaten a dog for a long time if the cook doesn’t lie to us * (s)).
          1. mav1971
            mav1971 1 July 2016 11: 30
            0
            Quote: BoA KAA
            And they are also involved in this area. And, they say, very successfully (* we have eaten a dog for a long time if the cook doesn’t lie to us * (s)).


            I don’t know who tells you what, but ...

            The only battery-powered lithium enterprise in the territory of the Russian Federation was recently closed without reaching its design capacity.
      2. Evgeniy667b
        Evgeniy667b 29 June 2016 19: 38
        +2
        They will be pledged only in 2018, if again something does not affect the timing. Then they will build for three years, then finish. As for example the same "St. Petersburg". Well, modestly by 2025, will something really be drawn? There were many promises and statements that everything is going ... So it's better to believe the facts, and not the statements of the general storyteller from Rubin. And then, until the time when the new submarine takes its due place in the Navy, will not only those Varshavyanks that are now being commissioned remain in service?
        1. Dembel77
          Dembel77 30 June 2016 12: 35
          +1
          A good step forward! I am glad.
  2. Fregate
    Fregate 29 June 2016 12: 26
    +5
    Well, good. Let's hope the installation turned out to be successful and the problems with it, if any, will be minimized.
    1. Observer2014
      Observer2014 29 June 2016 13: 03
      +7
      Fregate hi RU Today, 12:26 AM New
      Well, good. Let's hope the installation turned out to be successful and the problems with it, if any, will be minimized.

      I want to add. In the photo to the article, I hope not the power plant itself laughing
  3. DenZ
    DenZ 29 June 2016 12: 27
    0
    Well, finally, some kind of specifics on VNEU. Now we are waiting for the tests of "Kalina".
    1. lelikas
      lelikas 29 June 2016 13: 03
      +6
      Quote: DenZ
      Well, finally, some kind of specifics on VNEU. Now we are waiting for the tests of "Kalina".

      I would not call it specifics - "work has been completed with the aim of creating" - such a vague phrase that you could not imagine better.
      1. Bramb
        Bramb 29 June 2016 13: 09
        +5
        I’m also translating for you too: this means that the scientific and technical work (a successfully working prototype has been created) to create this installation has been completed (positively completed!). It remains only to scale and screw it into the submarine hull.
        Scientific language - it is, yes ...))
        1. goose
          goose 29 June 2016 13: 59
          +7
          Quote: Bramb
          I translate for you too

          R&D as part of R&D has been completed, OK, there are only two letters left to complete, but they can be so long ... And here you need to not only pay scientists, you need to build production, and then effective top managers come on the scene, ready to drag out and cost this stage to an absolutely unacceptable level.
        2. mav1971
          mav1971 29 June 2016 15: 53
          +2
          Quote: Bramb
          I’m also translating for you too: this means that the scientific and technical work (a successfully working prototype has been created) to create this installation has been completed (positively completed!). It remains only to scale and screw it into the submarine hull.
          Scientific language - it is, yes ...))


          Did you come up with this about the scientific language?

          Do not pass off your translation as reality ....

          With the same success, I can write "a terms of reference has been written for a research institute, in order to start calculating a plan for financing R&D to formulate plans for the development of a promising technical process for separating hydrogen from heavy hydrocarbon fractions for a promising VNEU".

          Everyone understands that in what I have written there is nothing really effective, but for you "a huge step in the development of humanity" :)
        3. lelikas
          lelikas 29 June 2016 22: 51
          +1
          Quote: Bramb
          Scientific language - it is, yes ...))

          The headline only says that everything has already been created - In the Rubin Central Design Bureau announced the creation of the newest power plant for the submarine "Kalina"
          And last year, they could not make the layout work, although in the 13th year they began to test it, and in the 14th year, they wrote that it was created and works, and now, after almost two years - the same news. I hope, of course, that this time is true.
          1. Sergey S.
            Sergey S. 29 June 2016 23: 48
            +1
            Quote: lelikas
            I hope, of course, that this time is true.

            I'd like to hope ....
            But numerous and long-standing reports about the creation of VNEU are worrying ...
      2. gridasov
        gridasov 29 June 2016 14: 42
        -1
        There are not only vague phrases. There is frank unprofessionalism of both physicists and theorists. Efficient non-volatile energy installations are possible on plain sea water. Water can simply be trivially included in a thermodynamic cycle with a unidirectional vector of the process. This means that the engine can perform the function of transforming water into a short-term state of separated hydrogen and oxygen, and this step will also be included in the process of creating the angular momentum on the rotor connected to whatever you want. Moreover, the screw replaced with this new device can in a certain mode work perfectly without harmful cavitation effects. That is, in one case, on the same device and the principle of its operation, cavitation can be increased and used as an engine device, and in the other case, cavitation can be leveled by reducing turbulence on the blades by lengthening the laminar flow period. The question is not even that the proposed technology can already be applied immediately, but that you need to grab it as a thread that defines a completely new direction of research, but also the application of new algorithms in the process of creating new engines.
        1. Idiot
          Idiot 30 June 2016 09: 32
          +2
          Quote: gridasov
          There are not only vague phrases. There is frank unprofessionalism of both physicists and theorists.


          This testifies to the blatant incompetence of the specialists of the Rubin Central Design Bureau of MT "Rubin" and Igor Vilnit personally, perhaps even of their natural stupidity, and also, I admit, that they are biased, corrupt and much more, for which the Russian language has not even come up with a definition. I am delighted with your knowledge and professionalism in ALL technical aspects of articles published on VO! If, by some ridiculous accident, I had your photograph, I would have hung it over my desk, next to the president's portrait. And if I (oh, happiness!) Suddenly turned out to be your mobile phone or e-mail address, then I would consult with you on all the technical issues that arise with me (only me, I would not share with anyone). For example, how to restart a PC or fix a refrigerator. But woe to me ...
          1. gridasov
            gridasov 30 June 2016 10: 30
            0
            Somehow too pathetic! In general, it is incognito that allows you to be quite frank. In addition, it is worth noting such an important aspect that the ability to fantasize is very different for different people. This is a sign of the dimension of imagination. And believe me. that a person cannot even fantasize more than it can be associated with his ability to represent the world such as his network. So my world of perception is different from the world of perception of other people - and nothing more. Therefore, I am neither better nor worse; I am simply a place in space with my own properties and abilities and nothing more. Everything else is apparently an illusion and abstraction, based on developed or undeveloped levels of emotional reaction to what is happening. So a person apparently sometimes needs to be able to see the world without emotional accompaniment. See the world as information, consistent with its intuition and mind, or not consistent. And this just needs to be justified.
        2. Rust0626
          Rust0626 30 June 2016 19: 35
          +1
          Your post from the series "Perpetual motion machines". What is the "separated hydrogen and oxygen transient state"? If you mean a fuel cell, then it has been known for a long time and is not used due to its known disadvantages.
          State your idea more clearly, otherwise your style is similar to the style of all these newly invented engine inventors with an efficiency of more than 100%, a lot of pathos and little meaning.
        3. F751
          F751 30 June 2016 21: 03
          +2
          This makes no sense
        4. Boa kaa
          Boa kaa 30 June 2016 23: 03
          +3
          Quote: gridasov
          only vague phrases.

          Gridasov! Are you again a pseudo-intellectual mess from your head hang on the ears of gullible members of the forum?
          I'm already tired of your "competence" on the submarine.
          Teach physics. Start with the law of conservation of energy. Maybe then you will understand how much energy you need to spend to decompose seawater (we will leave the salt out of brackets!)
          About cavitation and turbulence with laminarity: we already sorted it out with you somehow ... Can’t you please? Itchy? again for the old?
          Finally, get sick!
          1. gridasov
            gridasov 1 July 2016 10: 27
            -2
            It is not your right to tell me. I do not violate the rules of the forum. Moreover, I hope to hear the answers of smart people. And I remind you that the known properties of radioactive metals to generate heat can be obtained from any other metal. But you are not given to understand. But global trends and leading world physicists understand the prospect of ultrahigh-speed email. machines and, accordingly, the achievement of ultrahigh speeds on the rotor. Therefore, for those who aren’t smart, I’ll remind you that radioactive material, among other things, also has radial radiation, which is generally simple for people like you, and a linear segment placed in an ultrahigh dynamic process (with your mind, you can’t add imagination to see simplicity process and the mechanism of its organization) will allow radial radiation to turn into linear. For what ? You also do not realize. Cavitation is a process that precisely allows you to hold high speed and create a reference flow in the rotor of the device. In general, if you still answer ugly, then I do not have to climb into my pocket for answer words for a long time. You are simply idiots and I am shocked by your stubborn stupidity. You are not able to understand the simplest mechanisms of transformation of matter.
            1. Cat man null
              Cat man null 1 July 2016 11: 07
              +2
              Quote: gridasov
              Cavitation, on the other hand, is a process that precisely allows you to maintain high speed and create a reference flow in the rotor

              Quote: A & B. Strugatsky, Tale of the Three
              The highest achievements of neutron megaloplasm! The rotor of the field, like a divergence, graduates itself along the back and there, inside, turns the matter of the matter into spiritual electric vortices, from which the synecdo of response arises

              Oooh, yoooooooooooooooooo ...
            2. Boa kaa
              Boa kaa 1 July 2016 22: 06
              +2
              Quote: gridasov
              In general, if you still answer ugly, then I do not have to climb into my pocket for answer words for a long time.

              Gridasov! You are the only one !!! I will answer you as I see fit, based on common sense and the usefulness of the case!
              About those discoveries and technologies that you are raving about in your comments, you need to write in the "science fiction" section, for the discoveries "at the tip of the pen" oh, how long ago they will find their practical embodiment in technology (hardware). This is roughly what is shown in the picture!
              Quote: gridasov
              You are simply idiots and I am shocked by your stubborn stupidity. You are not able to understand the simplest mechanisms of transformation of matter.
              But this is rudeness! And I could not stand him even from high bosses!
              So, I give you a "minus" for your inability to conduct a reasoned dispute!
              1. gridasov
                gridasov 1 July 2016 22: 51
                0
                Firstly, if you are not even going to admit that you were the first to be rude, then what arguments can be discussed. I speak that language. which they impose on me, of course, if it is appropriate for the circumstances. Secondly, you are a man, apparently a military man and must understand that I am not delirious and talking about a mechanism that is absolutely obvious in a person’s perception. A huge number of obvious phenomena, when the same nebulae in the flowing stream of an airplane wing, cavitation not only on the blades, but also on the hull of the boat leaving a mark in sea water. These are all processes of one phenomenon and algorithm, which can be simply turned into a convenient and simple energy process in a power plant. I’m not trying to impose a theory on my fantasies. I’m talking about what can be done because it is simple and obvious, and we have already tested the reality of the effect under those conditions that we can do. But as they say, if smart, then there should be a lot, and I understand the importance of the technology I'm talking about. Now imagine that I will post information openly. You Russians are clumsy and volatile in the decision-making mechanism, so for now, the Chinese will think. the Japanese, Americans and especially Germans will take from under their noses what essentially belongs to you. The technology I'm talking about is the optimized technology of the Germans that they developed in World War II. I was somehow brought to a person who was introduced as a general. So when I proved to him that Schauberger’s key devices have the same basis and the process algorithms that I’m talking about, he told me that a huge number of documents are stored in storage rooms and they simply cannot be understood or read. And he immediately suggested that I be a consultant on some issues. BUT!!! Something did not work out. Therefore, you and others should have an idea that the same Germans and Americans have an identical problem. And they all work to solve problems that lie in a common concept for the issue. And I just solved this problem. That's all. Therefore, what a dreamer I am, if you do not own the slightest bit of what is known, if not to me, but to those who, at the present time, are not even a partner, but an obvious adversary. So think about what I can think of you.
  4. ser-pov
    ser-pov 29 June 2016 12: 28
    +2
    “The project“ Kalina ”is absolutely relevant for us, this project must be very successful. The head boat will be laid in 2018 year, ”said the source.

    Somehow a bit late ... Well, at least we sorted it out with VNEU ...
    1. avt
      avt 29 June 2016 12: 49
      +2
      Quote: ser-pov
      “The project“ Kalina ”is absolutely relevant for us, this project must be very successful. The head boat will be laid in 2018 year, ”said the source.

      Somehow too late ...

      Like it is necessary to do "West" right away? wassat
      1. NEXUS
        NEXUS 29 June 2016 13: 19
        +7
        Quote: avt
        Like it is necessary to do "West" right away?

        How much they suffered with Lada ... but Kalin should really be let into the series as quickly as possible. And then Varshavyanka will not be able to upgrade to infinity.
        It would be nice to accelerate in the development of the Husky MAPL, otherwise we are building the Ash tree, and in the fleet only one Severodvinsk is running (and this is not even Ash-M). hi
        1. avt
          avt 29 June 2016 15: 58
          0
          Quote: NEXUS
          we build the ash trees, and in the fleet there is only one Severodvinsk

          request With the Ash "some kind of trouble .... request hi
          1. NEXUS
            NEXUS 29 June 2016 17: 21
            +2
            Quote: avt
            With the Ash "some kind of trouble ....

            Hmm ... the deadlines were postponed for two years ... And Yaseni-M would have significantly changed the alignment.
            I believe that all the efforts were thrown to the Husky project. Allegedly, the Husky will be cheaper, while in combat power not inferior to the Ashes ... well, God forbid.
            Maybe Kazan will surrender by the 18th year. I really hope so.
            1. Dart2027
              Dart2027 29 June 2016 21: 27
              0
              Quote: NEXUS
              I suppose all the forces thrown on the Husky project

              Preliminary sketches are just beginning. The transition to a new generation is not a matter of one year, and no one knows anything specific.
              Quote: NEXUS
              Maybe Kazan will surrender by the 18th year

              Most likely they will surrender.
      2. lis-ik
        lis-ik 29 June 2016 13: 26
        0
        But "West" does not need it, I hope that the analogy on the names will end there, otherwise, God forbid, into such a technological and industrial pit as the Russian auto industry.
    2. Monarchist
      Monarchist 29 June 2016 13: 23
      -1
      Ger Hauptmann, I agree "It's kind of late": in an amicable way, "Kalina" should be laid in 2016 or the next 17m.
  5. Garris199
    Garris199 29 June 2016 12: 29
    0
    Just great news. The most important technology for the submarine fleet has been mastered.
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 29 June 2016 12: 46
      +14
      Quote: Garris199
      Just great news.

      And the most mysterious photo possible. The best CIA analysts will spend more than one sleepless night over this photo. wassat
      1. Winnie76
        Winnie76 29 June 2016 12: 59
        +11
        Judging by the photo, an excellent, unparalleled chicanery ... I swear by soppenka laughing
        1. Kos_kalinki9
          Kos_kalinki9 29 June 2016 13: 05
          +1
          It’s a pity for Prkopenka it’s still impossible to put +.
        2. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 29 June 2016 13: 09
          +3
          Quote: Winnie76
          excellent, unparalleled construction.

          Do not scare the Pentagon lol
          1. Kos_kalinki9
            Kos_kalinki9 29 June 2016 13: 40
            0
            Is he so afraid? fellow
      2. Roman 11
        Roman 11 29 June 2016 19: 48
        0
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        CIA analysts will spend more than one sleepless night over this photo

        Had a word on an emotional wave laughing
  6. dsm100
    dsm100 29 June 2016 12: 31
    +3
    This is really good news. The main thing is that everything would turn out. Better later than never.
  7. evil partisan
    evil partisan 29 June 2016 12: 35
    +2
    Economy to shreds yes if you listen to all kinds of Yabloko people and especially Boris Borisych Nadezhdin, and submarines, air defense systems, planes and tanks grow like mushrooms after rain ... And there’s something to eat, by the way. What is the paradox? what
    1. Mountain shooter
      Mountain shooter 29 June 2016 12: 48
      +3
      And the paradox is that there are three kinds of lies. Just lies, blatant lies, and statistics. Here are all sorts of "hopes" use the third source of information laughing
      1. Signore Tomato
        Signore Tomato 29 June 2016 12: 53
        +1
        Quote: Mountain Shooter
        And the paradox is that there are three kinds of lies.


        Just a lie, a blatant lie and a verbiage of a liberalist ...
      2. goose
        goose 29 June 2016 14: 04
        +5
        Quote: Mountain Shooter
        And the paradox is that there are three kinds of lies. Just lies, blatant lies, and statistics. Here are all sorts of "hopes" use the third source of information laughing

        No, it’s just that soon all the money for Kalina will go to the 2018 World Cup. Again we will look at the shame of our team.
      3. mav1971
        mav1971 29 June 2016 15: 59
        0
        Quote: Mountain Shooter
        And the paradox is that there are three kinds of lies. Just lies, blatant lies, and statistics. Here are all sorts of "hopes" use the third source of information laughing


        About statistics - as a kind of lie ...
        Ask who said it, what kind of person it was, and when he said it.

        Statistics are the only valuable thing in this world.

        Or do you think that the Soviet State Planning Commission was a completely false idea?
        Which for some reason picked up the whole world?

        Do not write what you do not understand - look like a fool ...
    2. gispanec
      gispanec 29 June 2016 12: 49
      +2
      Quote: Angry Guerrilla
      What is the paradox?

      in finance and their use for the needs of this very economy ....
    3. donavi49
      donavi49 29 June 2016 13: 42
      +6
      DEPL is now an extremely profitable product, approximately at the level of IFIs. And as an economic project for export, it will easily pay for itself.

      A lot of boats are sold in the world.

      Excluding national fleets, over 10 years new-built boats were delivered and contracted:
      project 636 - 18 pieces.
      German 212/214 - 24 pieces
      German 209/1400 - 7 pieces
      French Scorpene - 12 + 2 options.
      French Shortfin Barracuda - 6 pieces
      Chinese S20 (version Type 039 without VNEU) - 4 pieces with localization in Pakistan

      And this is only from major players.
      1. goose
        goose 29 June 2016 14: 06
        0
        Quote: donavi49
        And this is only from major players.

        But what, Japanese submarines for Australia - not a major contract?
        1. donavi49
          donavi49 29 June 2016 14: 17
          +1
          Australia chose Shortfin Barracuda, and the Japanese flew by.


          According to experts, Japan is truly disappointed with Australia's refusal to purchase submarines, as Tokyo missed a chance to debut on the international submarine market. Previously, the Japanese side did not supply their submarines to other countries.
    4. g1v2
      g1v2 29 June 2016 14: 41
      0
      The paradox is not owning numbers. And from here not understanding of a situation. If you bought a new wardrobe and money until the next paycheck you have barely enough, then your financial situation to shreds or not? We have large projects and construction projects (worth more than $ 100 million) now simultaneously underway in the region of 70 pieces. These are military projects, and infrastructure, and industrial, and agricultural. And everywhere money is needed, respectively, from time to time, their shortage emerges in some places, which they begin to urgently solve. Naturally, if you cancel a couple of dozen projects, then there will be more free money and there will be no problems. However, all the projects are needed and how to decide what to freeze - the construction of submarines, ships or power plants, or bridges and roads, or import substitution? It will be easier in my opinion after 2018 - there the World Cup will be held, and part of the construction projects will end, and many import substitution projects will end, and so on. However, there will be new projects and new construction projects - and also all necessary however. request
      1. Idiot
        Idiot 30 June 2016 09: 44
        +1
        Quote: g1v2
        Naturally, if you cancel a couple of dozen projects, then there will be more free money and there will be no problems


        Or turn on the printing press. However, they aren’t even wasting money on paper now - they draw zeros in a computer. That is where happiness is!
  8. Red_Hamer
    Red_Hamer 29 June 2016 12: 38
    +1
    Let's hope that everything will work out, I would like to do it faster! CDB Rubin, the USA will give more than one "gift" laughing
    1. Monarchist
      Monarchist 29 June 2016 15: 30
      -2
      In the Pentagon they are already "chasing squirrels" they are already good without whiskey, and they will also drive "Kalina". They already have one (it seems McNamara) all were waiting for the attack of the Russians and the roof "went": a floor climbed and sigo to the bottom "Russian tanks in Washington"
      1. The comment was deleted.
  9. Aleksander
    Aleksander 29 June 2016 12: 44
    +2
    successfully completed work to create a VNEU for non-nuclear submarines ",

    What a rich Russian language, however! yes So VNEU successfully created or only work with the aim of engine creation completed successfully?
    request
    1. Bramb
      Bramb 29 June 2016 12: 58
      0
      Typical phrase for scientific and technological revolution. Have you been involved in scientific and technical work? Or read?
      Mine, for example, was titled like this: "Study of the Influence of X Components on the Components of Games in the Z Environment." Question: studied or not? )) But the factory is already working ...
  10. Forever so
    Forever so 29 June 2016 12: 51
    +1
    Who would have thought that the idea expressed as a joke was implemented in VNEU for submarines in a few years.)) So, comrades, we are going the right way !!))) And the installation is uniquely successful, because heat recovery from reforming can be done through Stirling engines, that is, the efficiency of the entire VNEU can approach almost 100%. Although there are other ways to directly transfer heat to EMF. That is, the boat will be super quiet. Ah well done guys !!!
    1. Winnie76
      Winnie76 29 June 2016 13: 10
      +4
      We really don’t know anything, neither the power output, nor the efficiency, nor the mass, nor the volume of the installation. Nothing at all. Maybe they paralleled dozens of such ones with aliexpress. But the guys are certainly well done laughing
      1. Forever so
        Forever so 29 June 2016 15: 42
        0
        Well, you old man with such antiquity !!)) There is a professor in St. Petersburg, he has long been converting Zhiguli dviguns into Stirling engines. Progress does not stand still !! wink
        1. Verdun
          Verdun 29 June 2016 22: 25
          0
          Quote: Forever so
          There is a professor in St. Petersburg; he has long been remaking Zhiguli engines in Stirling engines.

          And on these Lada flies into space. laughing
        2. Sergey S.
          Sergey S. 29 June 2016 23: 57
          0
          Quote: Forever so
          There is a professor in St. Petersburg; he has long been remaking Zhiguli engines in Stirling engines.

          The invisible professor and the engines are also invisible ...
          And only the paper of scientific journals endures and endures ...
      2. Sergey S.
        Sergey S. 29 June 2016 23: 55
        0
        Quote: Winnie76
        We really don’t know anything, neither the power output, nor the efficiency, nor the mass, nor the volume of the installation. Nothing at all. Maybe they parallelized dozens of such here, with aliexpress ...

        A dozen of these will give about 2-3 watts in total.
        Or even less ...
    2. Roman 11
      Roman 11 29 June 2016 20: 01
      0
      Quote: Forever so
      That is, the boat will be super quiet.

      And how many without ascent will be?
    3. Sergey S.
      Sergey S. 29 June 2016 23: 54
      +1
      Quote: Forever so
      Who would have thought that the idea expressed as a joke was implemented in VNEU for submarines in a few years.)) So, comrades, we are going the right way !!))) And the installation is uniquely successful, because heat recovery from reforming can be done through Stirling engines, that is, the efficiency of the entire VNEU can approach almost 100%. Although there are other ways to directly transfer heat to EMF. That is, the boat will be super quiet. Ah well done guys !!!

      ...
      The main thing is that after some time the directors of Rubin Vilnit are not exposed approximately like we discussed today the former leadership of the Baltic Fleet ...
      1. Verdun
        Verdun 30 June 2016 11: 20
        0
        Quote: Sergey S.
        The main thing is that after some time the directors of Rubin Vilnit are not exposed approximately like we discussed today the former leadership of the Baltic Fleet ...

        Relatively intelligible information on the VNEU discussed in the topic is as follows:
        . CB Rubin in Russia has chosen an electrochemical generator as its direction for the creation of VNEU
        With her in mind, it is completely incomprehensible what does the Stirling engine and hydrocarbon reforming pop up in comments. It should be noted that electrochemical generators are far from a new idea. These are the same notorious fuel cells.
        1. Sergey S.
          Sergey S. 30 June 2016 21: 22
          +1
          Quote: Verdun
          With her in mind, it is completely incomprehensible what does the Stirling engine and hydrocarbon reforming pop up in comments. It should be noted that electrochemical generators are far from a new idea. These are the same notorious fuel cells.

          Not wanting to get involved in the storage of hydrogen, in Rubin they decided to take a small chemical plant with them to a diesel electric submarine - by reforming, to get hydrogen for fuel cells from diesel fuel ....
  11. Simon
    Simon 29 June 2016 13: 01
    0
    This is something new - a hydrogen engine, the more hydrogen will be generated by the unit using diesel fuel reforming, because of which, the boat increases the duration of covert stay under water.
    1. Bramb
      Bramb 29 June 2016 13: 05
      +2
      This is not new at all: a hydrogen engine.
      The creation of a hydrogen engine has been around for a long time worldwide. The French, for example, are about 30 years old. So far, do not hear about the results from them. Although, they promised that it would be ready by 2005. )))
      1. Verdun
        Verdun 30 June 2016 17: 26
        +1
        Quote: Bramb
        So far, do not hear about the results from them. Although, they promised that it would be ready by 2005. )))

        ICE on hydrogen has been developed for about fifty years, if not more. The question is not in the engine, but in the economically acceptable method of producing hydrogen. Here it really is not yet.
  12. geolive77777
    geolive77777 29 June 2016 13: 07
    0
    I wonder what the result will be! We will see!
  13. Banishing liberoids
    Banishing liberoids 29 June 2016 13: 26
    0
    That is, in the engine, hydrogen is produced immediately from diesel fuel! This is good, but where does it go, or where do the other components of hydrolysis go - heavy metals and alkalis that are formed as a result of hydrogen evolution from a solarium? Isn’t it easier to take outboard water and decompose it into hydrogen for the engine, and oxygen for life support?
    1. goose
      goose 29 June 2016 14: 08
      0
      Quote: Exorcist Liberoids
      That is, hydrogen is produced directly from diesel in the engine

      Not from diesel fuel, but from synthesis gas. It works much better and more reliably on gas, on diesel fuel, of course, the duration will be longer, but there is too much hemorrhoids in maintenance.
    2. Rust0626
      Rust0626 30 June 2016 19: 42
      0
      Large costs of extracting hydrogen from water
      1. gridasov
        gridasov 30 June 2016 20: 53
        -2
        as they say, giving advice "A clever one does not need, and a fool will not use it." What are the most powerful forces in nature by the type of movement - centrifugal. This means that they must be used to obtain hydrogen and oxygen in a separated form.
  14. avg-mgn
    avg-mgn 29 June 2016 13: 27
    0
    Found extremely An interesting article on this topic, I highly recommend:

    http://www.sovsekretno.ru/articles/id/4473
  15. iliya87
    iliya87 29 June 2016 13: 27
    +8
    Know ours !!!))
  16. Rostislav
    Rostislav 29 June 2016 13: 29
    0
    The fundamental difference between the new VNEU and its foreign counterparts is that the hydrogen supply is not on board but is produced in the volume of consumption by reforming diesel fuel in a special installation.

    This is a great solution, because storing hydrogen is another challenge. It’s very painful, infection. Yes, and less explosiveness.
    1. chunga-changa
      chunga-changa 29 June 2016 13: 50
      +2
      Here you can argue. Their hydrogen cylinders are located outside of a solid casing; our hydrogen will be stored inside.
      The only advantage of our method is that there is no need to build a complex onshore infrastructure - a hydrogen production plant, its storage, transportation and pumping, and in terms of efficiency, reliability and safety, our method loses, therefore, the installation was "tormented" for so many years. On the other hand, the submarine can be based in any convenient place, not just near a hydrogen source.
      1. goose
        goose 29 June 2016 14: 11
        0
        Here I come from the same. For me, pure hydrogen is better, especially since it is stored in porous structures, with a large area of ​​reactive polymer in cylinders, almost chemically bonded, and not particularly fluid at temperatures less than 20 degrees Celsius. Making a cylinder for 200-400 atmospheres and getting hydrogen in the reactor is an order of magnitude easier than making complicated submarines, and even more overall ones.
  17. sub307
    sub307 29 June 2016 13: 52
    +1
    Finally! VNEU will allow non-nuclear submarines to go to a qualitatively higher level, and stealth of navigation will increase many times over.
  18. NordUral
    NordUral 29 June 2016 14: 00
    0
    The good news is now more in the series!
  19. Berkut24
    Berkut24 29 June 2016 14: 23
    0
    Only do not tell the Ceyevropeans ... otherwise they are also building a fleet.
  20. Verdun
    Verdun 29 June 2016 14: 33
    0
    Quote: vovanpain
    The main advantage of the 5th generation Kalina boats should be an anaerobic non-volatile power plant based on a modular Stirling engine.

    The main advantage of the Stirling engine, which works on the principle of external combustion over a conventional ICE, is its low noise. At the same time, combustion still occurs, which means that an oxidizing agent is needed anyway (it doesn’t matter if there is oxygen in the air, or whatever). So you need a supply of oxidizing agent. And then you need to put combustion products somewhere. If overboard, then the pop-up gases and, as a consequence, the unmasking effect. Not really, I can imagine how all this will be. At the same time, at the end of WWII, the Germans developed submarines, where the oxidizer required for the operation of the internal combustion engine was stored in special containers placed between the strong and lightweight submarine cases. The idea worked, but with the advent of atomic submarines it became irrelevant.
    1. Forever so
      Forever so 29 June 2016 15: 58
      +1
      My friend, hydrocarbon reforming, this temperature is up to 1200 degrees, maybe less, I don’t know what level the gas generator is there, but not the point, so the synthesis gas is obtained from diesel fuel, which now needs to be cooled, and it is sent to heat the stirling. And the engine runs and the gas cools. What is the oxidation and decay products ?? Moreover, when water is heated to 620 degrees, its decomposition into hydrogen and oxygen begins, well, since the boat is underwater, there is no shortage of water))
    2. nelson
      nelson 29 June 2016 16: 22
      +1
      In this case, combustion still occurs
      The essence of the operation of the Stirling engine is that the working fluid is heated from the outside in the space above the piston, and after the working stroke is carried out, it is removed to the "refrigerator", after which it is used again. And how to heat the head and, in fact, the working fluid is not so important (for example, with the heat released during reforming). And low noise is a consequence of low speed.
      Materiel you need to know!
      1. Verdun
        Verdun 29 June 2016 22: 10
        +1
        Quote: nelson
        Materiel you need to know!

        So, learn the materiel. To heat the catalytic reforming reactor (rather than reforming, as some write here) in the required volumes and to the required temperatures, cheap salt catalysts do not roll, and platinum ones make the operation of such a plant expensive. Moreover, as a result of the catalytic reforming of hydrocarbons, reaction by-products are still formed. Where to put them in a submarine? Reuse will not work. About what he writes in his comment / Eternally so /
        Moreover, when water is heated to 620 degrees, its decomposition into hydrogen and oxygen begins, well, since the boat is underwater, there is no shortage of water))
        I don't even really want to talk. Let, for the sake of curiosity, estimate the characteristics of an installation in which you can heat water to such a temperature and at the same time fit into the dimensions of a submarine. And the hydrogen that he receives in this way will cost almost more than the platinum catalyst. To all appearances, the concept of "catalytic reforming of hydrocarbons" is akin to "nanotechnology" for many. sounds beautiful, but mysterious and incomprehensible.
      2. Verdun
        Verdun 29 June 2016 23: 03
        +1
        Quote: nelson
        And low noise is a consequence of low speed.

        The Stirling engine is low-noise, not because of low revs, but because explosive combustion of fuel does not occur in it.
        1. grandson of the hero
          grandson of the hero 30 June 2016 21: 33
          0
          And broke off with speed. I overclocked mine (made on my knee) up to XNUMX. And this is without a normal refrigerator, improvised materials and bearings are the most affordable.
      3. Sergey S.
        Sergey S. 30 June 2016 00: 08
        +2
        Quote: nelson
        In this case, combustion still occurs
        The essence of the operation of the Stirling engine is that the working fluid is heated from the outside in the space above the piston, and after the working stroke is carried out, it is removed to the "refrigerator", after which it is used again. And how to heat the head and, in fact, the working fluid is not so important (for example, with the heat released during reforming). And low noise is a consequence of low speed.
        Materiel you need to know!

        Stirling has nothing to do with this topic.
        Heat supply in Stirling is a difficult problem.
        The low noise of the Stirlings is a consequence of the lack of valves, the use of composite seals, and the lack of rigidity in the working process. lack of currents at high speed ...
        And the shaft speed on the Swedish boat Stirling is 4000 rpm ...
        Materiel you need to know! That's for sure!
    3. Sergey S.
      Sergey S. 30 June 2016 00: 02
      0
      Quote: Verdun
      Quote: vovanpain
      The main advantage of the 5th generation Kalina boats should be an anaerobic non-volatile power plant based on a modular Stirling engine.

      The main advantage of the Stirling engine, which works on the principle of external combustion over a conventional ICE, is its low noise ..


      Baselessly.
      Stirling has nothing to do with it ...
      1. Verdun
        Verdun 30 June 2016 10: 44
        +1
        Quote: Sergey S.
        Stirling has nothing to do with it ...

        I absolutely agree that Stirling has nothing to do with it. Just made a comment about the low noise. I am much more concerned about the level of technical literacy of people who believe that there is some cheap, effective and safe way to produce hydrogen. The only one that at least approximately corresponds to the needs is to obtain, by reforming, a hydrogen-containing explosive gas bound to CO in a safe concentration from coal. However, the amount of coal needed to meet the needs of the submarine power plant in this cycle is large, and most importantly, by-products of the reaction still arise, which still need to be put on the submarine somewhere. In any case, everyone talks about VNEU as if the law of conservation of energy no longer exists.
        1. gridasov
          gridasov 30 June 2016 11: 02
          -3
          This is the essence of a harmonious process, which consists in the fact that HYDROGEN needs to be separated or isolated as a stage in a dynamic process. It does not need to be isolated, collected and then used. It is needed as a very short-term stage before the next one, when it again enters into a reaction with oxygen. Why hydrocarbons are not entirely acceptable, to put it mildly. Moreover, the products or results of such interaction and reaction should be in a non-stop and without organizing process of introducing a new portion of the flow for the reaction and its output, or in a closed cycle, and this process should and can be included in the reaction of the machine as a newly created torque on the rotor shaft, due to the kietic energy of the stream. In other words, this is what I say all the time that the complexity lies in the fact that simultaneously the energy of the kinetic hydro-gas dynamic flow can be formed and the potential energy of this flow can also be used as a process in the very matter of the flow. Then it’s not that it’s useless to talk about efficiency, you can generally have a clear understanding of the nature of what is happening in excess of a single energetic process, but controlled, and not on the concepts of "perpetual motion machine".
  21. alexis69
    alexis69 29 June 2016 16: 06
    +1
    EEE. Pioneering technical issues.
    1) Why do solarium convert to hydrogen? On this, efficiency is lost. Why not use fuel directly in the engine?
    (okay fuel cells - everything is clear there)
    2) And where will we get oxygen for respiration and engine?
    Carry a tank with liquid oxygen?
    1. Letnab
      Letnab 29 June 2016 17: 46
      0
      Quote: alexis69
      EEE. Pioneering technical issues.
      1) Why do solarium convert to hydrogen? On this, efficiency is lost. Why not use fuel directly in the engine?
      (okay fuel cells - everything is clear there)
      2) And where will we get oxygen for respiration and engine?
      Carry a tank with liquid oxygen?

      the answer seems to be as above ...)
      1. Verdun
        Verdun 29 June 2016 22: 43
        +1
        Quote: Letnab
        the answer seems to be as above ...)

        That's just it, that "sort of like". but in fact, it looks like some storytellers tell stories to other storytellers. There is a sea of ​​near-scientific words, but real information is a tear.
  22. keeper03
    keeper03 29 June 2016 17: 35
    +1
    Great news for AvtoVAZ! New cars will fly like hot cakes !!! :)
    Competitors bend down from a loss !!! :about)
  23. bad
    bad 29 June 2016 17: 49
    0
    at last! fellow ..I thought I couldn’t wait .. crying laughing
  24. gridasov
    gridasov 29 June 2016 18: 08
    +1
    Another thing surprises me. The ocean is essentially the same cosmos, but differing in properties, and more precisely in structure and pressure direction vectors (it would be more correct to say the direction of the radial polarization vector. Therefore, the propulsion systems, the life support systems, should be independent of the state of this external environment What we are talking about. At the same time, the Stirling engine, or rather the principle itself is very primitive, although it does have a place to be.
    1. KaPToC
      KaPToC 30 June 2016 00: 43
      +2
      Quote: gridasov
      The ocean is essentially the same cosmos, but different in properties

      That's it, different in properties. Space - vacuum - an ideal insulator. The ocean is an ideal heat exchanger, the environments are directly opposite.
      1. gridasov
        gridasov 30 June 2016 10: 19
        0
        In another sense, I meant. Ocean and space are environments hostile to human life. Therefore, the properties can be methodologically applied in such a way as not to withstand the environment. and use its potential. In addition, you are deeply mistaken that space is an insulator. if applicable to that quality of energy that a person uses, then yes, but for a different quality, this is far from an insulator. The ocean, on the other hand, is a system that ensures planetary equilibrium due to a complex of metabolic processes, and the mechanism of such metabolic processes directly depends on the interconnectedness of WATER as a substance with magnetic fluxes around the planet.
  25. Fantazer911
    Fantazer911 29 June 2016 18: 23
    +4
    Quote: gridasov
    There are not only vague phrases. There is frank unprofessionalism of both physicists and theorists. Efficient non-volatile energy installations are possible on plain sea water. Water can simply be trivially included in a thermodynamic cycle with a unidirectional vector of the process. This means that the engine can perform the function of transforming water into a short-term state of separated hydrogen and oxygen, and this step will also be included in the process of creating the angular momentum on the rotor connected to whatever you want. Moreover, the screw replaced with this new device can in a certain mode work perfectly without harmful cavitation effects. That is, in one case, on the same device and the principle of its operation, cavitation can be increased and used as an engine device, and in the other case, cavitation can be leveled by reducing turbulence on the blades by lengthening the laminar flow period. The question is not even that the proposed technology can already be applied immediately, but that you need to grab it as a thread that defines a completely new direction of research, but also the application of new algorithms in the process of creating new engines.



    ROW SCREW CAVITATION
    - the phenomenon of formation at the backs of the blades of gas bags, consisting of water vapor and air, at significant speeds of rotation of the screw. Gas bags disrupt the continuity of the fluid flow and thereby reduce the pressure in this area of ​​the blade. Owing to K., the axial emphasis and torque are reduced. The efficiency is drastically reduced. In addition, with K., the screw surface is destroyed. The main measure of struggle against K. is the increase in the area of ​​the blades.
    Samoilov KI. Maritime Dictionary - M.L.: State Naval Publishing House of the USSR NKVMF, 1941

    Laminar flow of fluid, this is a quiet flow of fluid, i.e., water flows in the river without acceleration.
    Turbulent mode is the flow of fluid under pressure at a speed set by the pump,
    Maybe I didn’t teach heat engineering and hydraulics so much, but the attitude to the rotation of the propeller and the laminar regime here somehow don’t fit. if I'm wrong please explain.
    1. gridasov
      gridasov 29 June 2016 19: 47
      -3
      You will excuse me, but since you wrote, and wrote from the words, like knowing people, but all this looks like babble-nothing concrete, there is nothing physics or mathematics in what was said. Therefore, I can only briefly answer that for different WATER by the presence of the same salt impurities, its temperature and other properties and the state of water with a variable pressure discharge of it, as well as on the surfaces of the discharge material of different conductivity levels, the so-called cavitation phenomenon occurs. It is worth saying that cavitation also occurs on that part of the flow surface where the flow turbulence is higher, namely, its ability to ionize the flow surface is higher than the same conjugated surface with a large radius, etc. That is, cavitation occurs on that part of the flow surface, if so, where the flow rate is higher and the surface is more highly charged. Therefore, the destruction of the surface of the outflow always has a certain configuration and such a focus of cavitation always takes place relatively long blades. Now, with regard to the causes of cavitation regarding the properties of the liquid itself, as a medium of hydrodynamic flow. On the surface of an open propeller blade, propeller or turbine blade, whether the designers want it or not, cavitation will always be on the surface of the outflow plane and no curvature or "saber" shape is able to resist such a phenomenon. Therefore, so that the ionization of the outflow surface does not decrease, but rather increase, and at the same time the cavitation phase itself occurs not on the blade, but on its tip, which means that this can be distinguished as a "combustion chamber" in which the higher the cavitation, the higher the radial explosive effect, which will always be directed tangentially and in the direction of rotation of the rotor axis. That is, cavitation will additionally rotate the rotor and without destroying the surface of the expiration. Everything is so simple and obvious, but for some reason everyone is doing the exact opposite with the negative effects that they receive in the form of what you meant as a decrease in efficiency and cavitation destruction of the discharge surface. Sorry, I don’t describe the subtleties because the process is complex and how hydro-gas-dynamic flow enters the rotor and how it exits is no less important. The current solution is completely thoughtless and neglecting all the laws of physics. At the same time, I note that a correctly set process in appropriate algorithms will allow using the properties of WATER as a fuel, will allow water to deactivate from radioactive contaminants, and desalinate in large quantities. Just imagine that at a supersonic speed of the water flow on the periphery of the rotor, you use water to convert this water from natural temperature to millions of degrees and not some part of a separate stream stream, but all, in its entirety. This is both an engine and a converter of water as a substance. At the same time, I add that the cavitation effect is a complex physical process and it is not calculated, but simply used to one degree or another relative to the goal and task. But a mathematical model can still be constructed as a complex process of highly dynamic fluid or gas outflow, in which not only kinetic, but also potential energy and substance properties are transformed that determine the flow. My personal opinion is that in addition to solid, liquid, and gaseous and plasma, the state of all these media should be distinguished as their state relative to the dynamics of contact between them.
  26. Roman 11
    Roman 11 29 June 2016 20: 23
    -1
    At least some results, the people's money didn’t fly into the pipe and thanks for that ..... Over time they’ll finish it, the phrase bribes - the unit is of a modular type, i.e. module, for the factory easier. It remains to find out how much they can remain under water without surfacing? Maybe someday they will upgrade it to water processing ..... in any case, there is a reference point. If the project comes out as planned, the submarines will be exported first of all ...... although I want to make mistakes.
  27. Fantazer911
    Fantazer911 29 June 2016 23: 14
    0
    [quote = gridasov] Excuse me, but since you wrote, and wrote from words like-knowing people, but all this is like babble-nothing concrete, neither physics nor mathematics are said.
    From the words of knowledgeable people, you can write yourself and not say that you yourself know much more than others

    Laminar and turbulent modes of fluid motion

    fluid movement
    Numerous experimental studies of moving fluids have established that there are two modes of fluid movement. The most complete laboratory studies of the modes of fluid motion were carried out by the English physicist O. Reynolds in a facility (Fig. 10.1), consisting of a tank of water





    Fig. 10.1. Installation diagram for demonstrating fluid motion



    a glass tube 7 with a tap 8 and a vessel 4 with an aqueous paint solution, which can be supplied with a thin stream into the glass tube 6 when opening the tap 5. The filling of the vessel 1 is carried out from the tap 2 with valve 3.

    At low water flow rates, the paint practically does not mix with it and the layered nature of the fluid flow and the absence of mixing are visible.

    The pressure gauge connected to the pipe 7 (not shown in the diagram) shows the invariance of pressure p and speed v, the absence of oscillations (pulsations). This is the so-called laminar flow (from the Latin word lamina-tape, strip), i.e. tape, layered.

    With a gradual increase in the speed of water flow in the pipe by opening the tap 8, the flow pattern does not initially change, and then at a certain speed its rapid change occurs. A stream of paint begins to mix with the flow of water, vortex formation and rotational movement of the liquid become noticeable, and continuous pulsations of pressure and velocities in the flow of water occur. The flow becomes, as it is commonly called, turbulent (from the Latin word turbulentus - random).

    If you reduce the flow rate, then the laminar flow will be restored.

    So, a laminar flow is called laminar without mixing particles of liquid and without pulsation of speed and pressure. With this flow, all fluid flow lines are completely determined by the shape of the channel. In laminar flow in a pipe, all streamlines are directed parallel to the axis of the pipe. The laminar flow is ordered at a constant pressure of a strictly established flow. The laminar regime is observed mainly during the movement of viscous fluids (oil, lubricants, etc.), and less viscous fluids during their flow at low speeds.

    Turbulent flow is called accompanied by intense mixing of the fluid and the pulsation of velocities and pressure. The motion of individual particles is chaotic, random. Along with axial displacement, rotational and transverse displacement of individual volumes of liquid is observed. This explains the pulsations of velocity and pressure. Reynolds found that the main factors determining the nature of the fluid motion are the average fluid velocity v, the diameter of the pipeline D and the kinematic viscosity of the fluid n. Given the influence of these factors, Reynolds proposed a digital dimensionless criterion for determining the regime of fluid motion

    Re = vD / n,

    where Re is the dimensionless Reynolds number or the Reynolds criterion.

    Knowing the parameters included in the right-hand side of this formula, we can calculate the value of Re by calculation.

    The speed at which for a given fluid and a certain diameter of the pipeline there is a change in movement modes is called critical.

    Experience shows that for pipes of circular cross-section the critical value of the Reynolds number, at which the turbulent regime of fluid movement begins, is equal to 2320. Thus, the Reynolds criterion allows one to judge the regime of fluid movement in the pipe. At Re <2320, the motion is laminar, and at Re> 2320 - turbulent motion.
    1. gridasov
      gridasov 29 June 2016 23: 46
      -2
      Complete amateurism. The movement of a liquid is an energetic process and it must be considered from completely different positions. I will only mention the most important processes of liquid outflow. Many people think that the fluid velocity in the near-wall zone or directly at the contact of the flow and the outflow surface is equal or tends to zero. It really tends to zero in the longitudinal vector of the flow, but it is maximum in the perpendicular vector. Therefore, the same "POCKET track" is an algorithm when the river water flow changes the vertical vectors in a certain area to longitudinal along the circumference. And the higher the flow velocity relative to the surface, the higher the density of the magnetic force interactions between them. This is shown by experiments and the same COAND effect, when the outflowing liquid from the pipe ionizes it and therefore "turns back", but in fact it simply follows the flow of magnetic forces and their flow. Exaggerated ee Reynolds constants generally disorganize the understanding of the complex process, and most importantly, they do not show the reasons for the change in laminar flow to turbulent and subsequently cavitation and with sonoluminescent effects. Therefore, low-potential processes can still be calculated with errors and tolerances and Reynolds constants, but what will you do in other energy modes. Think for yourself. I do not even position the process description system on functions of constant value of a number. You won't understand anyway, because you don't want it yourself. By the way, plasma behaves in exactly the same way as the flow of liquid or gas.
  28. Fantazer911
    Fantazer911 30 June 2016 08: 46
    +1
    Quote: gridasov
    Complete amateurism. The movement of a liquid is an energetic process and it must be considered from completely different positions. I will only mention the most important processes of liquid outflow. Many people think that the fluid velocity in the near-wall zone or directly at the contact of the flow and the outflow surface is equal or tends to zero. It really tends to zero in the longitudinal vector of the flow, but it is maximum in the perpendicular vector. Therefore, the same "POCKET track" is an algorithm when the river water flow changes the vertical vectors in a certain area to longitudinal along the circumference. And the higher the flow velocity relative to the surface, the higher the density of the magnetic force interactions between them. This is shown by experiments and the same COAND effect, when the outflowing liquid from the pipe ionizes it and therefore "turns back", but in fact it simply follows the flow of magnetic forces and their flow. Exaggerated ee Reynolds constants generally disorganize the understanding of the complex process, and most importantly, they do not show the reasons for the change in laminar flow to turbulent and subsequently cavitation and with sonoluminescent effects. Therefore, low-potential processes can still be calculated with errors and tolerances and Reynolds constants, but what will you do in other energy modes. Think for yourself. I do not even position the process description system on functions of constant value of a number. You won't understand anyway, because you don't want it yourself. By the way, plasma behaves in exactly the same way as the flow of liquid or gas.

    You are clearly smarter than all smart ones, especially claiming that MANY THINK and do not rely on knowledge of basic sciences.
    I actually wondered about what the movement of the submarine to the laminar mode is related to if the submarine does not stand still and moves and the concept of a laminar flow of fluid and the movement of the ship as well as the shape of the propeller and turbulence are generally not relevant here. Hydraulic laws and then than many people’s knowledge is built, you don’t think so, and so on, although this knowledge was invented and used by all university lyceums and other educational institutions, and here you are probably the most intelligent at Harvard, and there’s a different vision for the knowledge of man and another more abstract .
    The outflow of fluid in relation to the movement of a submarine that itself moves in the aquatic environment is everything you respected is upside down, the ocean is moving and the boat is standing?

    I don’t want to enter into your debate with you, but I see we studied in different educational institutions and it’s not worth living on the principle that I am smart and you are not.
    1. Idiot
      Idiot 30 June 2016 10: 04
      +1
      Quote: Fantazer911
      Looks we studied in different educational institutions


      You studied in different schools, live in different countries (if Ukraine today can be called a country) and exist in different dimensions. Gridasov (1) has already learned to live forever. While it turns out ...
      1. gridasov
        gridasov 30 June 2016 10: 21
        -1
        Not in measurements, but in assessing the dimension of different concepts and definitions. In the analysis of these processes using techniques that are simpler and more efficient.
    2. gridasov
      gridasov 30 June 2016 10: 11
      -1
      What does it mean smarter or dumber? You still attribute some garbage here and blame me. Science is impartial, it is necessary to solve and learn the nature of the processes. Therefore, is it really not clear that the process of transformation of the substance of the flow through its potential energy is obvious and there are stages of such a transformation from laminar motion to turbulent and further to sonoluminescent, and you and your contemporaries solve the problems of analysis of these processes applicable only to laminar. And if this is so, then you just need to change the methodology itself to each level of the dynamic state of this environment, its flows. That is what I am talking about. And in general, you need to have an opinion, and not be a parrot-ass who repeats without thinking what he says.
  29. Sedoy
    Sedoy 30 June 2016 12: 54
    0
    curious, but what is the autonomy with such an engine in ours ..
    meaning underwater ...

    I used to read that the most advanced, in this regard, the Germans ...
  30. akm8226
    akm8226 30 June 2016 15: 17
    0
    I didn’t understand something - in the directory they write this:
    As a result of R., gasoline fractions of oil receive 80–85% of gasoline with an octane rating of 90–95, 1,5–2% of hydrogen, and the rest are gaseous hydrocarbons.
    1 - 2% hydrogen ... is this really a solution?
  31. ver_
    ver_ 30 June 2016 16: 24
    0
    Quote: Verdun
    Quote: nelson
    And low noise is a consequence of low speed.

    The Stirling engine is low-noise, not because of low revs, but because explosive combustion of fuel does not occur in it.

    The Stirling engine is quiet not because it is low-speed, but because it does not have a gas distribution mechanism and valves .. This is not an internal combustion engine, but an external combustion .. In addition, there is a problem in sealing the output shaft - since inside the engine a fair amount of pressure .., and the "sealing" of the generator into a single body - to bring out only the wires, the hassle is still that ...
  32. nail1972
    nail1972 30 June 2016 16: 39
    0
    Even in Brazil they have already created an autonomous robotic boat capable of destroying submarines: http://www.popmech.ru/technologies/240314-robokater-vooruzhennyy-torpedami-groza
    -podlodok /
    Maybe you should not spend billions in vain, but focus on designing artificial intelligence craft? The lack of crew life support systems should greatly reduce the cost of final products, reduce their size, visibility, etc.
  33. ver_
    ver_ 30 June 2016 17: 01
    0
    Stirling's efficiency is about 46% higher than that of a diesel engine .., and the "ideal" "working fluid" is hydrogen under very high pressure - this is far from a fountain, but a good hemorrhoid, if we also take into account its destructive effect on metals and seepage ..
    1. grandson of the hero
      grandson of the hero 30 June 2016 21: 49
      0
      Is hydrogen a working fluid? ... In a Stirling engine?
      This is new ... !!!
  34. Fantazer911
    Fantazer911 30 June 2016 23: 04
    0
    Quote: pft, fkb
    Quote: Fantazer911
    Looks we studied in different educational institutions


    You studied in different schools, live in different countries (if Ukraine today can be called a country) and exist in different dimensions. Gridasov (1) has already learned to live forever. While it turns out ...

    I didn’t say anything bad about Ukraine! so it’s part of me even though I’m not amazed there, but the meanings and concepts and who and where I studied it also has nothing to do with the question, the essence of the conversation is that you can’t turn the meanings and terms, do not call white black and vice versa
  35. ver_
    ver_ 1 July 2016 02: 26
    0
    Quote: the grandson of the hero
    Is hydrogen a working fluid? ... In a Stirling engine?
    This is new ... !!!

    In principle, Stirling is the principle of operation of a home refrigerator, but vice versa .. Freon is poured into the refrigerator ..
    In the refrigerator we need cold, and in the Stirling engine we need the rotation of a generator (electric motor) ..
  36. ver_
    ver_ 1 July 2016 04: 51
    0
    Quote: Verdun
    Quote: Forever so
    There is a professor in St. Petersburg; he has long been remaking Zhiguli engines in Stirling engines.

    And on these Lada flies into space. laughing

    In the days of my distant youth, I had to read an article by Shkurat in the magazine "Young Technician, or" Technique of Youth ", where he experimented with a boat motor, translating it on the topic of Stirling and gas ..
  37. gladysheff2010
    gladysheff2010 1 July 2016 20: 23
    +1
    Quote: Alex777
    On this topic, for example, they do not build Lada, then they build.

    And what has the 677th project to do with it? We are discussing the Kalina project - not to be confused with the VAZ model!
    Decent news, despite the doubts of members of the forum good !
  38. The legacy of ancestors
    The legacy of ancestors 2 July 2016 02: 06
    0
    Quote: lelikas
    Quote: Chariton
    Well, how to build it and write ...! Nerves do not need to be battered ...

    Strange, but here I agree with you completely and completely.
    Before that, they could not create a normally working engine, they were tormented with a stand (even they could not really get it to work) and then bam - it turns out that already half a year ago, we finished the work and we have a ready engine.
    Vague doubts torment me. (WITH)


    I'll tell you this .... I'm more interested in who he was snooped on with wiretaps, the Germans, the French, or the Swedes ....
  39. serverny
    serverny 2 July 2016 02: 28
    0
    Quote: demchuk.ig
    But what about the widely advertised "Lada"?

    Yes, she died so much that the modified and perfected project "Lada" with VNEU was renamed "Kalina".