Military Review

English historian Phyllis Jestais about the "Ice Battle" with comments and observations.

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Despite modern television, the Internet and mobile phones, we know very poorly what is happening in the world around us, and we don’t even know any other people. First, there is a language barrier. Yes, foreign languages ​​are learned in schools, but only few are able to learn them! Only a few make their way through this “sieve”, but “few” are not the people as a whole. Secondly, there is also poverty. If every working citizen of Russia could go on vacation, say, to Thailand or spend Christmas in Paris, then much would have been perceived differently. It was not for nothing that Russian noblemen in the past and their children assigned foreign tutors and liked to travel “there” themselves, and in the same place often hid from justice. It turns out that most of us feed on what they give. They say that “there” pervert our history and people believe, because they can’t read the books of local authors, because they are expensive, and “they are not trained in languages”!


English historian Phyllis Jestais about the "Ice Battle" with comments and observations.

Another modern reconstruction. Novgorod fights with knights. Those for some reason in red. Who are they?

The situation is similar with the legendary “Ice Battle”, which we, here at VO, are finally studying not as much as at school, but scientifically, that is comprehensive, starting from the chronicles. But now it is time to talk about him with the words of one of the English historians, namely Phyllis Jestais, who is one of the authors of the book The Great Battles of the Crusaders 1097 - 1444, published by EKSMO in 2009.

I note, and not without pride, that the first truly voluminous article about this battle is The Great Battle on ice. Shpakovsky, V. UK. Military wargamer. 1993. oct./nov., as I was in England and published, and back in 1993 year. A drawing with the image of Russian soldiers participating in the battle was made to me by two girls, graduates of the Penza Art School. Savitsky, and the fact that the British took him, says that they liked him. Of course, they knew about it before that, but it was the first article by a Russian author after 1991, and everything was pretty traditional.

Then came David Nicolas’s book The Battle of Lake Pijpus, but it makes no sense to consider it. The fact that he is all that is known about this battle, just lumped together. And the facts, and speculation. And it turned out that there the Mongols were jumping, and the Germans were drowning, in a word, everything was like in Marshak's fable “The Elephant-Painter”.


Illustration by A. McBride from D. Nicolas's book “The Battle of Lake Pijpus”. It seems to be so voivod Domash killed. Well, obviously the artist did not try here ... But he showed the notorious "grass" at the edge of the shore.


Knights of the Teutonic Order at his castle. But which order belongs to a warrior with a red shield, on which is a white cross? And what does a warrior do with bannerboards? Went out for a walk along the bank? It is completely ridiculous and strange ... A. McBride from D. Nicolas's book “The Battle of Lake Pijpus”.

But Phyllis wrote more interesting. That is why I want to give here the translation of his chapter, but, of course, with his comments, because they can not do without them. So, read, p. 158-167:

“THE BATTLE ON THE MIRACLE LAKE, WHOSE CHRISTIANS CHILDREN BATTLE CHRISTIANS, PRESENTS THE DUALITY OF SO-CALLED CROSS-WAYS IN THE BALTIC. Despite the small number of participants, the collision has resulted in an actual number of the number of the software of the number of executors on the list of software and software that are on the list of the main software developers on the software used by the keynote princes of the city of Nizhny Novgorod and the Nevsky region of the city of Nizhny Novgorod.

In the Baltics, the last non-Christian peoples of Europe lived. Crusades in the Eastern Baltic region in the XII century for the most part remained ineffective, especially because of the difficulty of retaining captured land. Thus, in the XIII century. a new policy was developed: the papacy set out to make every effort to form a “church state” in the Baltic States, which would be ruled by bishops and papal legates under the general leadership of Rome. However, on the path of the popes were two important forces. First: in the region there was a strong influence of Orthodox Christianity. Second: the dissimilarity of the incentives to action among the Western Crusaders and the lack of unity of their aspirations with the goals of the papacy. The Orthodox Christians of Russia did not want to accept the Roman spiritual primacy, and therefore seemed to the West to be schismatics who prevented the conversion of the inhabitants of the Baltic region to Catholicism. What is probably more important, the Russians seemed to be dangerous rivals in the development of local resources to the western merchants and seniors of military teams. These two factors manifested themselves with particular significance around 1240, the controversy reached a climax and ended with the defeat of the crusaders on Lake Peipsi in April 1242.

At the end of 1230's papal legate Guillemo di Modena began to preach a crusade and created a Western coalition against Novgorod. The latter was at that time the greatest of the Russian states — a center of commerce so large by Northern European standards that it was often called Mr. Novgorod the Great. If some kind of union could challenge the primacy of the West and restrain its expansion in the Baltic States, then this is certainly Novgorod.

At the end of 1230 and at the beginning of 1240, whatever it was, the Mongol invasion swept across Russia with a devastating shaft. Many Russian principalities have fallen, and Novgorod, although not subjected to defeat, was supposed to eventually recognize Mongolian suzerainty. Thus, it seemed that the time for the attack of the West on Novgorod was chosen correctly. The moment looked attractive - nothing seemed to have prevented the victory of these proud and influential citizens - Eastern Christians - and to force them into submission.

Guilelmo di Modena’s efforts to raise the western army on a crusade were crowned with considerable success, to a certain extent because the kings of Sweden and Denmark tried to somehow advance eastwards, and therefore the crusade was very suitable for them as a way of masking their own aspirations for pious deeds, and also as a means of attracting - in addition to achieving spiritual awards - financial assistance. In a word, they could easily call volunteers from all over Europe under the banner of an expedition not as sovereigns in their countries, but as supranational guardians for a common cause.

In the Soviet Union, Alexander Nevsky became a popular hero, and his victories were widely used by propaganda during World War II. This situation is explained by the fact that Alexander accomplished his exploits a long time ago, when tsars did not rule in Russia, but the main reason is that the prince successfully repelled the onslaught of the Germans from the West.


Not a single picture can be compared with Sergei Eisenstein’s film, which has become a film-classic for all times. And how everything in it is thought out. After all, for example, there was no duel between the prince and the master. Rather, no source reports about him, especially that the master of the order was captivated personally by Alexander. But after all, in the movie it looks?

By 1240, Mr. Gilyelmo returned to Italy, convinced that the work begun by him would end with the triumph of Western Christianity.

CAMPAIGN

However, the Western coalition created by Guilelmo was purely formal and did not constitute a cohesive force; the various formations of the Crusaders set in motion, but at the same time no one seemed to have seriously taken care of the development of a general strategic line. The Swedes, led by King Eric IX (1222 — 1250), invaded Finland in the spring of 1240. This alerted the citizens of Novgorod, and they called Prince Alexander, who had been expelled from the city shortly before. Alexander took over the leadership of the fight against the Swedes, using the help of the very well trained detachments of archers that served him (I wonder where he got it from? - V.Sh.).

15 July 1240. He defeated the Swedes on the banks of the Neva River, for which the grateful Novgorodians began to call Alexander Nevsky.

Despite Alexander's big victory over the Swedes, the threat from the West to Novgorod remained. The second Catholic army was already gathering to oppose it. It consisted of former members of the disbanded monastic military order of the sword brothers; Western knights who became feudal lords in Estonia; the Danes; the militia of the German Bishop Dorpat (Dorpat); and a handful of Teutonic knights.

Similarly, the Teutonic knights, members of the military-religious order, who had long since begun to cut their territories in the Baltic States, were eager for an excuse to attack their powerful neighbors, the frontier, Heinrich, Bishop Ezel-Wick, asking them to secure possession of the conquered regions.


Russian warriors are dressed, one might say, just with love and very authentic.

Although Alexander Nevsky again left Novgorod, once again having quarreled with the merchant leadership of the city, at a difficult hour the citizens called him again.

Novgorodians agreed to the demands put forward by the prince to fight against the Germans and their supporters in Pskov, under his command. Alexander fully justified their trust.

Toward the end of 1241, they recaptured the territory east of the Neva and in March 1242 liberated Pskov. Then, Alexander and his army proceeded to the long-range raid on the territory of the German border Diocese of Dorpat, apparently wanting to beat the enemy with his own methods. It is clear that a serious expansion of the territory of Novgorod was not in his plans, all he wanted was a large-scale raid. Apparently, satisfied with what has already been achieved, Alexander with the 6-thousandth army (no number has been established in the chronicles! - V.Sh.) turned home after his advance guard was driven away from one bridge.

BATTLE ON THE ICE

It is likely that Bishop Dorpat Herman did not quite correctly understand Alexander’s maneuver, having accepted the orderly retreat of Novgorod for flight. We can not exclude the fact that Alexander seriously underestimated the number of troops at the disposal of Bishop Dorpat. Whatever happened in reality, the latter seemed to rejoice, believing that the dangerous enemy was in a very uncomfortable position. Most of the crusading army that was operating against Novgorod last fall, who went where, but some people still remained in Hermann’s diocese, and he saw that he could muster enough forces for the planned enterprise. Hermann began to prosecute the army of Alexander with the army, which included from 1000 to 2000 fighters (the number in different sources varies considerably), which, as it may seem, was a rather rash act because the enemy had 6000 (obviously, the author tries to reduce ends meet, using data from the Livonian Rhymed Chronicle - V.Sh.). Here, however, one should take into account the fact that Westerners possessed the best armor and weapons (there can be only one comment - ha-ha-ha! Our historian V. wrote about how it really was as early as 1975 year P. Gorelik in his articles in the magazine “Around the World” - V.Sh.)) than most Russians, and probably only intended to properly pat the retreating enemy, and did not expect to meet face to face in open battle.


But where the director saw such helmets from the monster and the orderly servants, well, there is no such thing in any of the museums!

Alexander with the army moved on the ice of the frozen Lake Peipsi, followed closely by the crusading army also entered the ice, but somewhat north of the route the Russians had taken.

Anyway, they came ashore faster, and Alexander Nevsky got the time to organize forces before the arrival of the Westerners. He built troops on the eastern side in a place called Voronim Stone, where, with difficult terrain, attacking heavy cavalry with acceleration would have encountered great difficulties. The situation was aggravated by uneven layers of ice, which created additional obstacles on the shore as the water in Lake Peipsi froze and then melted (very interesting, where did he get all this from? - V.Sh.).

The prince was not mistaken in choosing a position for defense and repelling the attacking enemy, especially in light of the fact that the landscape features made it difficult to effectively use the strike link - the western heavy cavalry. Armed with spears, bows and axes, Alexander placed infantry in the center. It should be noted that, despite the portrayal of the battle on Lake Peipsi by Sergei Eisenstein in his famous film “Alexander Nevsky”, filmed in the USSR in 1938, Alexander’s troops were professional soldiers, and not peasant militia, desperately fighting for the salvation of Holy Mother Russia, as the director tried to show in an extremely propaganda film. Alexander had at his disposal some amount of light cavalry, which he placed on the flanks. In part, these horsemen were represented by horse archers, probably Polovtsy, or cumans (again, about cumans - from where? And from where - from an article in the magazine “Technique-Youth”, which was called “Prince's Name” and was published in issue number XXUMX for 2 year - V.Sh.).


Here it is: that article in TM that gave rise to many insinuations, which are not really based on anything.

The very fact that the Russians had built up and prepared to give battle to the persecutors, apparently, caused some frustration among the crusaders who turned out to be in a significant numerical minority. This is evidenced by at least the behavior of local Estonian warriors, who probably didn’t feel any disposition to fight and, as sources tell us, fled immediately, as soon as they saw the enemy force deployed far away (sources, that is, chronicles, report that ran a little later - V.Sh.).

Nevertheless, despite the superiority of the enemy over the Western army in numerical proportion in the best case for the Crusaders three to one, the latter still had chances for success. The core of their small army was the heavy cavalry - the knights and the "gendarmes". Dressed in robust chain mail, reinforced with wrought iron elements, and mounted on large warhorses, the knights, each in itself, outweighed any adversary as a combat unit. More importantly, the knights were well trained and were perfectly able to act in close formation, attacking with horse lava, which simple, but effective methods brought them more than once in the same XIII century. victory in battles, especially against deprived infantry.

The leaders of the crusaders (we do not have information under whose direct command they went into battle, perhaps under the authority of Bishop Herman himself) decided to strike the enemy positions suddenly. Clearly, they hoped to crush the enemy center and take the Russians to flight, so as to easily chop them up during the pursuit. Accordingly, the Crusaders built heavy cavalry without any tricks of the wedge, where Teutonic knights and their own “gendarmes”, the best of the best in the whole army, had advanced places.

All-destructive wedge rushed to the Russian infantry (well, why do we always have infantry in the center? In what chronicle is this written? - V.Sh.) in the center of the enemy system. She, however, resisted. It is very possible that the Crusaders did not manage to disperse properly because of the arrows of the Novgorod shooters (weapon they could be especially effective against the horses of the Crusaders) and because of the difficulty of rough terrain on which they had to act.


Before us is a scene from the film by S. Eisenstein “Alexander Nevsky” (1938), where we see the Russian army as a peasant militia that came out in defense of the Fatherland. In fact, Alexander's warriors were mostly professionals (if so, then where did the infantry with the drake come from? - V.Sh.).

FLANGED ATTACK

And yet the throw of the knights could still bring them victory, if the Russians had not put into operation the cavalry set on their flanks. Easier armed horsemen fell on the wings of the western army, horse archers on the left flank of the Russians inflicted particularly serious damage to the Danish knights on the right side of the Crusader formation. The Russians were so numerically superior to the Crusaders that they were able to completely surround the Westernizers (this is all true, but the chronicle says “they set up a regiment” and not regiments, and there is nothing about cavalry on the flanks. - V.Sh.).


Judging by the film, the story helped the prince to win, that the blacksmith, the owner of the short chainmail, told the fire to his comrades: "Fox jumps and jumps, and between two birch trees - and get stuck! And the hare stands nearby and seriously says to her: - Do you want me all your girlfriend I’ll break the honor? ”“ Why are you, what are you, neighbor, how can I regret it! And the hare to her: “There’s no time to regret! And I’ve broken it! The prince heard it, understood everything, built the troops correctly and ... defeated the Germans on the lake!

Many of the Danish knights turned around and tried to gallop back to the other side of Lake Peipsi, pursued on the heels of the Russian cavalry. Apparently, it was here that only the battle and proceeded on the ice of the lake. Even if someone from the western warriors on powerful horses fell into the water, it is unlikely that any of them drowned, because the lake is extremely shallow (in some places the depth does not exceed 30 cm) (well, at least it says so, because that there was a battle, the Germans were drowning, and the Russians who fought with them were not. They just stood and watched! But it does not happen on the ice! - V.Sh.

Nevertheless, the maneuver on the frozen lake was enough to bring Alexander the victory in the battle on Lake Peipsi, which the Russians also call the “Ice Battle”.

About 400 crusaders died - up to half of all who entered into direct slaughter with the enemy. Six Teutonic and 44 other knights have captured. The losses could have been perhaps even more sensitive, but Alexander Nevsky forbade the pursuit of defeated Westerners on the far shore of the lake (that is, the author follows the Russian chronicles and the Livonian Rhymed Chronicle - V.Sh.).


And this is the scheme of the battle given in the book. And then the author apparently wrote one thing, and the artist painted another. Look at the knightly wedge. Infantry - that is, chd, inside it! Knights so protected Chud? And why did she fall "countless"? Or is it their servants and crossbowmen? Funny, huh? And now the "pig" jumped forward, and the infantry ... The infantry remained "back"! And she simply could not catch up with the riders, and there was nothing she could do in the place of a mad horse fight. And the wedge itself - it could be at the beginning and there was a wedge, but, having gained speed, it had to break up into the “fence”. Otherwise, the rear horsemen would have crashed into the braking front ones, but they could not help but slow down, having met anyway - the infantry or cavalry. Look at the medieval miniatures - horsemen separately, infantry separately. Do you know why? Because the infantry rider can not catch up. The horse is fast on foot! And then there were several knight squads. No one could bring them into one squad, this is a direct damage to knightly honor. And they went into battle in parts and were eventually defeated. (This is the only speculation that we can afford, based on the sources that have come down to us. - V.Sh.)

EFFECTS

Lake Peipsi was not really a place of such an important battle, into what it turned its anti-Western ideology of Russians and later legends. Their resurrection was especially promoted by Sergei Eisenstein with his magnificent theatrical action on the film “Alexander Nevsky,” the blood for which the music was written for which was written by Sergei Prokofiev. Having won, Alexander made peace on rather favorable conditions for the West, which once again confirmed the fact that he did not seek to expand Novgorod’s possessions in the western direction. Bishop Dorpat and his allies readily accepted the terms. Novgorodians left the border areas captured by them, and Alexander released the captives, while the Westerners released the hostages they had.

Whatever it was, the battle had a negative impact on the prestige of the Western conquerors and could have prompted some of the conquered peoples of the Baltic to revolt against the Western masters. So, soon after the clashes on Lake Peipsi, the Prussians rose against the Teutonic Order, although the rebellion might have happened sooner or later and regardless of the results of the battle under consideration. It is clear that the order was not seriously weakened by losses in the confrontation on the ice. Too few, actually, the Teutonic knights fought there, as not only the great master, but also the commander of Livonia or one of his deputies did not participate in the battle. The following year, the Estonians rebelled against Denmark, but the company was doomed to failure from the very beginning.

Meanwhile, the sad outcome of the crusade against Novgorod revealed the weakness and illusory nature of the papacy’s grandiose plans in the region, since it clearly failed to direct the efforts and energy of nontrivial-minded northerners to the single channel, whose fighting and greed could otherwise have other consequences.

Probably the most important consequence of the battle was the rise in prestige of the Russian prince Alexander Nevsky. The legends about the battles on the Neva and Lake Peipsi louder and louder louder than his exploits, which made Alexander a great figure and even holy, as a defender of Russian Orthodoxy. From a political point of view, he also found himself in a clear win. The reputation helped him in consolidating power in Russia, which several centuries later led to the unification of the country under the scepter of the great princes and kings - his distant descendants.

COUNTERPOWER FORCES
WESTERN VOYSKO (approximately)
Teutons
Knights: 20
Order "gendarmes": around 200 Danish and Estonian knights:
about 200
Dorpat Militia: Near 600
Warriors of Estonian Tribes: 1000
Total: 2000
NOVGORODSKAYA VOYSKO (approximately)
Mixed forces, probably half cavalry and half infantry
Total: about 6000

And now a little about the content. If we discard all the “fantasies” of the author, then we get a very thorough, balanced and objective material, in which there is not the slightest hint of derogation, or the rewriting of Russian history. And this text in English is read by the British, Americans, Australians and New Zealanders, and even the inhabitants of South Africa, of course, those who read, because they do not read there much (as we do now, too!). So you need to have a great "anti-Western" mentality and fantasy in order to see something anti-Russian in all this. Therefore, it is not necessary to lump politicians politicians, journalists who have failed to learn (I know many, I met them personally) and ... historians who value their reputation and, if possible, and the historian has available information, they try to write truthfully, without opportunistic tricks and fantasy. Well, and the manner of presentation of each people has its own and is connected with the peculiarities of the national culture. We have a more academic style of writing, they are more close to a conversational manner. And that's it!
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  1. Korsar4
    Korsar4 24 June 2016 06: 32
    +15
    I think that even before the Eisenstein film, Alexander Yaroslavovich was isolated from other princes. There are certain sacred events in the life of our country. The battle of ice is one of them. Of course, it is legendary.
    1. Vend
      Vend 24 June 2016 10: 20
      +10
      But where the director saw such helmets from the monster and the orderly servants, well, there is no such thing in any of the museums!
      Well, here it’s not about miracles, even in the film, Alexander refers to these characters as bollards.
      COUNTERPOWER FORCES
      WESTERN VOYSKO (approximately)
      Teutons
      Knights: 20
      Order "gendarmes": around 200 Danish and Estonian knights:
      about 200
      Dorpat Militia: Near 600
      Warriors of Estonian Tribes: 1000
      Total: 2000

      And here a mistake crept in. 20 knights, but the knights did not ride alone. Each had its own detachment, consisting of squires, servants, etc. This is + 6 people, there could have been more. So the number can be increased.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. bastard
        bastard 24 June 2016 15: 53
        +1
        Quote: Wend
        And here a mistake crept in.

        and here too:
        in a word, everything is like in Marshak’s fable “The Elephant-painter”.

        EMNIP author of the fable Sergey Mikhalkov.

        Not the topic of the article, but something inspired memories from "City of Zero":
      3. Verdun
        Verdun 24 June 2016 18: 27
        +2
        Quote: Wend
        And here a mistake crept in.

        Mistake - this is putting it mildly. After all, the text below says that already half a hundred knights were captured! Such a quantity at that time is a very unlikely figure.
        1. mamont5
          mamont5 April 2 2018 07: 57
          0
          Quote: Verdun
          Quote: Wend
          And here a mistake crept in.

          Mistake - this is putting it mildly. After all, the text below says that already half a hundred knights were captured! Such a quantity at that time is a very unlikely figure.

          Not the fact that these were the knights. Our here did not understand much - in armor, which means a knight. And the annals, as well as later reports, sinned with a strong exaggeration.
    2. Canep
      Canep 24 June 2016 11: 37
      +8
      If anyone is interested in the opinion of science:
      1. Stilet
        Stilet 5 January 2018 22: 53
        +1
        Here I didn’t hear one important detail — if there was no infantry, then the Russian cavalry could not wait when the Germans crashed into lynxes — an equestrian battle is an oncoming battle, or a battle to catch up with the enemy. Then it would be more logical to assume the following battle dynamics:
        1. Russian horse archers attacked the "great pig" in the forehead, which was already moving towards the battle formation of Nevsky.
        2. The “pig” mass cut the skirmishers in two, while the divided skirmishers continued to shell the flanks of the “pig” that had begun to unfold.
        3. Counter attack of the prince’s squad, which did not have time to turn around “pigs”, ie the coverage of knights from the flanks turned out, and the horse archers, without ceasing to shoot, were rebuilt in the rear of the wedge.
        4. Chud faltered, gave a “pull” back through the ranks of equestrian archers who, in turn, began to pursue them and drive 7 miles. As a result, the head of the "pig" was surrounded.
        Perhaps the advanced knights broke through the center and followed the example of a miracle. Those who could not break through, they were "soaked" or captured.
    3. Duke
      Duke 24 June 2016 16: 29
      +4
      Quote: Korsar4
      I think that even before the Eisenstein film, Alexander Yaroslavovich was isolated from other princes.

      Alexander Yaroslavovich Nevsky (1220 - 1263) was canonized by the Orthodox Church at the Cathedral of 1547 in the face of the faithful for special services to the fatherland and the Orthodox faith.
      But to be revered as a saint he became immediately after his death.
      1. Rivares
        Rivares 24 June 2016 17: 04
        0
        Quote: Duke
        Alexander Yaroslavovich Nevsky (1220 - 1263) was canonized by the Orthodox Church at the Cathedral of 1547 in the guise of those who are faithful for special services to the fatherland and the Orthodox faith

        Canonized 300 years later. I wonder why not right away?
        1. Mavrikiy
          Mavrikiy 24 June 2016 20: 23
          0
          Quote: Rivares
          And now the time has come to tell about him in the words of one of the English historians, namely Phyllis Jestays, who is one of the authors of the book “The Great Battles of the Crusaders 1097 - 1444”,

          Propose the next day?
          1. Mavrikiy
            Mavrikiy 25 June 2016 11: 58
            +1
            Quote: Rivares
            Canonized 300 years later. I wonder why not right away?

            Propose the next day?
        2. Duke
          Duke 24 June 2016 21: 27
          +5
          - Alexander Nevsky is canonized as the noble prince. Among these saints are laymen who have become famous for their sincere deep faith and good deeds, as well as Orthodox rulers who have managed to remain faithful to Christ in their public ministry and in various political conflicts. Like any Orthodox saint, the noble prince is not at all an ideal sinless person, but this is primarily a ruler, guided in his life primarily by the highest Christian virtues, including charity and philanthropy, and not by a thirst for power and not self-interest.
          - Contrary to popular belief, that the Church canonized almost all the rulers of the Middle Ages in the face of the faithful, only a few of them were glorified. So, among the Russian saints of princely origin, the majority are glorified in the faces of the saints for their martyrdom for the sake of their neighbors and for the preservation of the Christian faith.
          - Through the efforts of Alexander Nevsky, the preaching of Christianity spread to the northern lands of the Pomors. He also managed to help create an Orthodox diocese in the Golden Horde.
          - The veneration of Prince Alexander as a saint began immediately after his death, at that time a rather detailed “Tale of the Life of Alexander Nevsky” was compiled. The official canonization of the prince took place in 1547 at the local cathedral of the Russian Orthodox Church.
          Makaryevsky cathedrals - the local cathedrals of the Russian Church convened by Metropolitan of Moscow Macarius in 1547 and 1549 to canonize Russian saints. For this reason, the period of the Makaryevsky cathedrals is called the "era of new miracle workers." According to church historian A. V. Kartashev, Metropolitan Makariy convened these cathedrals with the goal of canonizing Russian saints, based on an understanding of the "special situation of the Russian church in the Universe" and the "fait accompli of the political unification of Russia."
          The Makaryevsky cathedrals finally formed the procedure for the canonization of saints by the catholic decision of the bishops and with the sanction of the primate of the church. Initially, researchers believed that these Councils only fixed the liturgical celebration of saints, who were previously locally venerated, on a church-wide scale. Metropolitan Makarii (Bulgakov) has an opinion that the Councils canonized a number of saints, but V.O. Klyuchevsky wrote for the first time that they had as their goal only the canonization of saints. Modern scholars believe that these cathedrals were rather liturgical than canonical - that is, their purpose was not to glorify new saints, since their veneration is also known in the pre-docile period, but to systematize the hagiography of these saints and confirm their hymnography.
          1. Mikhail Matyugin
            Mikhail Matyugin 24 June 2016 22: 38
            -4
            Quote: Duke
            Alexander Nevsky is canonized as the noble prince. Among these saints are laymen who have become famous for their sincere deep faith and good deeds, as well as Orthodox rulers who have managed to remain faithful to Christ in their public ministry and in various political conflicts.
            Sincere faith and good deeds? And what about the observance of Mongolian customs? Maybe the twinning with Sartak was made without Mongolian pagan customs? Does Orthodoxy know such a custom?

            Good deeds - well, you tell the tortured Suzdal people and Nizhny Novgorod, who fought for him on the Neva and Lake Peipsi, and on which he later induced the Tatar rati as the TOP Tatar tributary.

            Quote: Duke
            Through the efforts of Alexander Nevsky, the preaching of Christianity spread to the northern lands of Pomors. He also managed to contribute to the creation of an Orthodox diocese in the Golden Horde.
            Yeah. Which was created thanks to the labors of his father Yaroslav, the main ally and apparently conductor of the Batu army in Russia.

            Well, you know, well, among canonized saints there are much more unequivocal and much better personalities than Prince Alexander Yaroslavich.

            You’ll still remember - what is it that Peter I, who was himself declared “the Tsar-Antichrist” (what is it, eh?), Put forward almost to the main saints of Russia?
        3. Aljavad
          Aljavad 26 June 2016 00: 30
          +2
          Canonized 300 years later. I wonder why not right away?


          But you can’t do it right away. We need relics - imperishable fragrant remains, as well as miracles associated with the candidate. And to the latter, the church is strict and partial. He doesn’t believe a word.
    4. Mavrikiy
      Mavrikiy 24 June 2016 17: 39
      +6
      Quote: Korsar4
      I think that even before the Eisenstein film, Alexander Yaroslavovich was isolated from other princes. There are certain sacred events in the life of our country. The battle of ice is one of them. Of course, it is legendary.

      Allocated, I agree. But the author claims the opposite:
      "In the Soviet Union, Alexander Nevsky became a popular hero, and his victories were widely used in propaganda during the Second World War."
      Here is such an immodest Nevsky, took and became. Let's suggest that the author also "make himself", at least something useful for the Fatherland. However, even propaganda will not help here.
      By the way, the author, Nevsky "became" a Saint 400 years before the Great Patriotic War. Learn history and don't wrinkle your nose.
      1. kalibr
        24 June 2016 19: 14
        +2
        This is written by an English historian and such is his opinion. But "made" does not mean that he himself "became". It is clear that he was "made".
        Quote: Mavrikiy
        By the way, the author, Nevsky "became" a Saint 400 years before the Great Patriotic War. Learn history and don't wrinkle your nose.
        But in the 20-30 years, the attitude towards him was somewhat different and began to change only from the middle of the 30's!
        About the nose, write to Phyllis yourself. He will appreciate!
        1. Mavrikiy
          Mavrikiy 25 June 2016 11: 55
          0
          Quote: kalibr
          David Nicolas

          Quote: kalibr
          This is written by an English historian and such is his opinion. But "made" does not mean that he himself "became". It is clear that he was "made".
          Quote: Mavrikiy
          By the way, the author, Nevsky "became" a Saint 400 years before the Great Patriotic War. Learn history and don't wrinkle your nose.
          But in the 20-30 years, the attitude towards him was somewhat different and began to change only from the middle of the 30's!
          About the nose, write to Phyllis yourself. He will appreciate!

          Ah, sorry, sorry, I didn’t notice (write your thoughtful comments in italics for the future).
          How the article ends - "Author Vyacheslav Shpakovsky". The translator is always to blame for such authors. It was you who undertook to please us by studying: "at VO, we are finally studying not like at school, but scientifically, that is, comprehensively, starting from the chronicles." And the hand did not rise to edit the eminent and talented Anglican, or, according to etiquette, you need to ask him for permission, but you are not in?
          "Done", tomorrow the translator will write "closed up" and you will add to this?
          1. Mavrikiy
            Mavrikiy 25 June 2016 15: 50
            0
            The answer is miserable kalibr
            "Oh, sorry, sorry," I take it back. I did not know that you are the translator of this imperishable. And do not blame the author-angla, God's sheep. I almost finished it. And a language expert is right there.
            1. kalibr
              27 June 2016 06: 58
              0
              Something I don’t understand, my dear. The text specifically indicates when and where it is published in Russian. Why do I need to translate something. Do you always read so carelessly?
          2. kalibr
            27 June 2016 06: 56
            0
            It is necessary to underline the information as close as possible to the original. All my comments were given in brackets. But there were enough of them, so my signature is below. As for not entering, no need to make jokes. That's funny. I have enough publications abroad, so there are no problems with etiquette. Go to the Osprey Publishing website and look in the authors section. And, by the way, the material with the analysis of the chronicles was here. Now here is a sample of "their" creativity. What's bad?
        2. Mavrikiy
          Mavrikiy 25 June 2016 15: 44
          0
          Quote: kalibr
          This is written by an English historian and such is his opinion. But "made" does not mean that he himself "became". It is clear that he was "made".
          Quote: Mavrikiy
          By the way, the author, Nevsky "became" a Saint 400 years before the Great Patriotic War. Learn history and don't wrinkle your nose.
          But in the 20-30 years, the attitude towards him was somewhat different and began to change only from the middle of the 30's!
          About the nose, write to Phyllis yourself. He will appreciate!


          Meticulously noticed in 20-30 years. Remember Yeloslavsky’s Emelka’s activities and then his attitude to Nevsky can fall into place ...
      2. Mikhail Matyugin
        Mikhail Matyugin 25 June 2016 11: 34
        +2
        Quote: Mavrikiy
        Nevsky "became" a Saint 400 years before the Great Patriotic War. Learn history and don't wrinkle your nose.

        It was put forward by someone from Moscow’s throne precisely as the symbol of the struggle with the West - on the eve of the impending Livonian war, which was planned as victorious and quick. This ruler did not expect a little that he would meet fierce resistance, the unity of Europeans and become mired in a long and bloody struggle for many years, which would almost cause the collapse of all Russian statehood.
    5. Mavrikiy
      Mavrikiy 25 June 2016 15: 26
      0
      Quote: Korsar4
      I think that even before the Eisenstein film, Alexander Yaroslavovich was isolated from other princes. There are certain sacred events in the life of our country. The battle of ice is one of them. Of course, it is legendary.


      As long as most think so, Russia will exist.
      1. kalibr
        27 June 2016 06: 59
        0
        Ah, I forgot: "and she feeds on fables!"
  2. EvgNik
    EvgNik 24 June 2016 06: 51
    +6
    Thank you, Vyacheslav. A rather curious look at seemingly well-known events. And the film, of course, is good. Basically on it and judge the ice battle.
    1. igordok
      igordok 24 June 2016 07: 35
      +11
      Quote: EvgNik
      Thank you, Vyacheslav. A rather curious look at seemingly well-known events. And the film, of course, is good. Basically on it and judge the ice battle.

      And as if Vyacheslav did not try to convey to the readers the truth that the battle was most likely on the shore, and not on the ice of Lake Peipsi (Warm), it was useless. The image of knights drowning on ice cannot be cut out from our heads by any means. After all, it’s beautiful, impressive, memorable.
      1. fennekRUS
        fennekRUS 24 June 2016 16: 40
        +1
        Quote: igordok
        After all, it’s beautiful, impressive, memorable.

        Quote: igordok
        If we discard all the "fantasies" of the author, it will turn out

        For this rejection - thanks to the author. But how many have enough education to discard the "tinsel" of both ours and Western sources? So we have a confrontation.
        1. kalibr
          24 June 2016 19: 17
          +1
          I gave here a great article about all the descriptions of the "Massacre" in PSRL and analysis, how which differs from which. Look through the profile, I don't remember when it was now. Everything was very detailed there.
          1. fennekRUS
            fennekRUS 24 June 2016 20: 56
            +1
            Thank you, I read it thoughtfully.
    2. Petrik66
      Petrik66 24 June 2016 11: 15
      +6
      Yes, but according to Pushkin we judge Boris Godunov. and according to Repin about the murder of Ivan the Terrible by his own son.
  3. igordok
    igordok 24 June 2016 07: 19
    +3
    I will correct it.
    Even if one of the western warriors on mighty horses fell into the water, it is unlikely that any of them drowned because the lake is extremely shallow (in some places the depth does not exceed 30 cm) (it’s good that at least it’s written because it turns out that there was a battle, the Germans were drowning, but the Russians who fought with them - no, they just stood and watched! And it doesn’t happen on ice! - V.Sh.)

    A warm lake in the area of ​​which, most likely, the Battle of Ice occurred, the deepest of Peipsi Lakes. Depth 15 m - against 13m at Chudsky and 5m at Pskov. And unlike the Pskov and Peipsi lakes, the bottom is steep, not flat. If the battle were-on Teply, which for some reason is called Chudsky, the soldiers, both non-Germans and Russians, would drown. You can drown in a puddle. smile
    Most likely the battle took place on a swampy shore, where you can also drown. The first picture (not a photo) shows very well the background of the battle. With the exception of the bridge, no one will put up bridges in those places; they used gatas.
    1. igordok
      igordok 24 June 2016 07: 28
      +1
      At http://informpskov.ru/media/gallery/print/id/19375
      infa about the reconstruction of the Battle of Ice this year. This year the audience was free, but the weather and the remoteness of the show did not contribute to a large number of guests.
      1. Riv
        Riv 24 June 2016 14: 35
        +5
        Yes, there were not so many guests in the 13th century. The reasons are the same: weather and travel far.
      2. Mikhail Matyugin
        Mikhail Matyugin 24 June 2016 22: 48
        +1
        Quote: igordok
        infa about the reconstruction of the Battle of Ice this year.

        Cool, laughed a lot! And the Maltese, and the Templars, who are not there, and Rusich in armor of the XIV century, yeah. There is still no adaptation of Eisenstein.
    2. kalibr
      24 June 2016 07: 36
      +2
      Back in 1961, an expedition of the Russian Academy of Sciences was looking there ... after all, silt is a good preservative. They searched and searched, applied modern technology. And ... they didn't find anything. David Nicole specially raised all the materials available on the topic, collected everything in his book. And he also did not quite "that". And when everyone has "not quite that", then everything is real and was not at all like that.
      1. igordok
        igordok 24 June 2016 07: 44
        0
        This peat bog is a good preservative. And in those places the marshes are upland. The bottom is sandy, as well as the bottom of the lakes. They could survive vryat. What remains on the shore is plundered, but what is rotten at the bottom of the lake or swamps.
        In theory, the crusaders after the defeat on the eastern shore, retreated through the lake, and could fall through the ice in April.
        1. abrakadabre
          abrakadabre 24 June 2016 09: 30
          +3
          Eisenstein borrowed knights under the ice from another battle that happened a little earlier (if I remember correctly).
          By the number and composition of the participants: there wasn’t numerous infantry. Unless there could be some contingent of dismounted soldiers guarding the carts lined up in the rear in the center.
          The total number of participants in the battle was certainly not drawn to the "battle of the peoples". Despite this, the political significance of the battle was really great.
          1. Riv
            Riv 24 June 2016 14: 25
            +1
            Actually, if you estimate on the map (copied from pedivikia) the speed of advance of the order of the troops, then it can be assumed with a high degree of certainty that the infantry was in it.
            And the very nature of the war is based on fortresses. The area is very populated. The same Pskov and his cavalry detinets were hardly capable of storming. Climbing the walls is not her business, infantry is needed here.

            By the way, pay attention to the red arrows. The Russians moved much faster than the Germans. But not because Novgorodians are harsh runners, but because the army marched along frozen rivers.
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. Andrey Zh
              Andrey Zh 24 June 2016 15: 11
              +5
              "Novgorodians came across the frozen rivers" - golden words and correct ones! Many armies of those times moved in the winter along frozen rivers; by the way, the Mongols too!
          2. Mavrikiy
            Mavrikiy 24 June 2016 18: 18
            +2
            Quote: abrakadabre
            Eisenstein borrowed knights under the ice from another battle that happened a little earlier (if I remember correctly).
            By the number and composition of the participants: there wasn’t numerous infantry. Unless there could be some contingent of dismounted soldiers guarding the carts lined up in the rear in the center.
            The total number of participants in the battle was certainly not drawn to the "battle of the peoples". Despite this, the political significance of the battle was really great.

            You guys decide there. Knight dogs 20 people, there was no infantry. And what happened, a picnic on the sidelines?
            "The political significance of the battle was really great." It will never be great unless there are very great consequences.
            Comedians like Shpakovsky and Co., strive to show a colorful picture and always come out white threads zakazuhi.
            1. According to the Teutons, the most authoritative expert is English.
            2. Articles spanks in England.
            3. Now there is a psycho-historical war, the British are clearly our enemies and it’s at least strange to think that they are objective, decent, honest.
            4. It is written without respect, neither to the Homeland, nor to Nevskam.
            5. You should be ashamed, Mr. Shpakovsky.
            1. kalibr
              24 June 2016 19: 19
              +1
              Is it a shame to show what they write about us there? Do you want an ostrich head in the sand and know nothing but stamps? And why would an Englishman respect a foreign homeland?
              1. Uncle Murzik
                Uncle Murzik 25 June 2016 07: 00
                0
                it’s clear for liberals that Western stamps are more pleasant!
              2. Mavrikiy
                Mavrikiy 25 June 2016 12: 21
                0
                Quote: kalibr
                Is it a shame to show what they write about us there? Do you want an ostrich head in the sand and know nothing but stamps? And why would an Englishman respect a foreign homeland?

                So I'm about the same, my dear! Why do you propose to study the Battle of the Ice from ... no, not from work, but from a picture book written by the enemy? And where is love for the Earth, where is "a kiss?"
                The truth spoken viciously, poisonous lies similar. Not I said they. And it is this tool that they use. The story of the Battle of Ice, our story, we should write and not chocks with eyes.
            2. kalibr
              27 June 2016 07: 01
              0
              By the way, why do you call knights dogs? Where does the information come from?
          3. Mikhail Matyugin
            Mikhail Matyugin 25 June 2016 09: 17
            +1
            Quote: abrakadabre
            Eisenstein borrowed knights under the ice from another battle that happened a little earlier (if I remember correctly).

            What exactly was a battle on Omovzh.
            Also often battles "on ice" took place in Prussia and Lithuania, because in winter, it was easier to move there precisely because of the off-road and extensive swamps.

            Quote: abrakadabre
            The total number of participants in the battle was certainly not drawn to the "battle of the peoples". Despite this, the political significance of the battle was really great.
            Of course, so large that even the South Russian annals did not notice this great event!

            And Alexander Yaroslavich was honored in the Horde for completely different "merits".
      2. Andrey Zh
        Andrey Zh 24 June 2016 15: 16
        0
        You are not a patriot of Russia! If it is said that the battle was "there," then it means that it was there! (* By the way, archaeologists did not find ANYTHING at the site of the Kulikovo battle either, but we do not deny the fact of this battle. Maybe not there or were looking badly? ?? Or - did they find something, but hid it from us? ...)
        1. Mikhail Matyugin
          Mikhail Matyugin 24 June 2016 15: 23
          +2
          Quote: Andrey Zhdanov
          * By the way, archaeologists at the site of the Battle of Kulikovo also did not find ANYTHING, but we do not deny the fact of this battle.

          This is not true - at the site of the Battle of Kulikovo, just the same, a certain amount of armament was found precisely in the XIV century! Another thing is that the amount found is clearly not talking about the 150 or 800 thousands of fighters who were allegedly chopped up there.
          1. Andrey Zh
            Andrey Zh 24 June 2016 15: 28
            0
            Dear Michael! There were not 800 thousand who fought! ... These are stupid inventions of historians! The people there fought less ... Well, then the counter question is - where are the bones and skulls of the fallen then ??? Are stolen by descendants? Or archaeologists ??? Where's the answer? Or the Russians had a perfectly arranged funeral team, then another question is where is the mass grave of the fallen ????????????????????????
            1. Alexander Greene
              Alexander Greene 24 June 2016 18: 45
              +3
              "Nothing was found on the sandpiper field"
              The fact is that knightly armor and weapons are very expensive equipment and could not be left just like that, there were special teams that collected all this after the battle. Nevertheless, archaeologists sometimes manage to find something.
              The 1961 expedition of the Russian Academy of Sciences on Lake Peipsi was organized to give an answer that there was an ice battle on Lake Peipsi. because Western historians, especially German ones, began to deny it. They found the place of Raven Stone, for many centuries it was licked with water, but some artifacts confirming the battle were nevertheless found.
              1. kalibr
                27 June 2016 07: 04
                0
                Alexander, you will please me very much if you name what artifacts. At least some, and tied specifically to 1242, only with reference to the source, please.
            2. Mikhail Matyugin
              Mikhail Matyugin 25 June 2016 11: 24
              0
              Quote: Andrey Zhdanov
              There weren’t 800 thousands of people fighting! ... These are silly fabrications of historians! There were fewer people fighting there

              Well, actually this is the peak assessment of our chroniclers of the Tatar-Mongolian army alone (although the army of Mamai can only be called that conditionally - there were Armenians, Circassians, and Crimeans).

              Actually there were about 8-30.000 warriors on each side. It’s difficult to establish more precisely, the initial data are very different.

              PS Dear comrade! For accusing me of not being a patriot of Russia, as the saying goes, "you can get a candelabrum." I sincerely and from the bottom of my heart love my homeland and respect the national interests of Russia above all else.
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. Alex1117
            Alex1117 5 November 2017 07: 10
            0
            That is not true. At the site of the alleged Battle of Kulikovo, a scanty number of spearheads and arrowheads were indeed found. Which by itself, which carried back to the end of the 14th century. In fact, our Bashkir cavalry, who fought against Napoleon, could still use the items found. Not to mention the Crimean Tatars of the 15-17th centuries.
      3. Verdun
        Verdun 24 June 2016 18: 32
        +1
        Quote: kalibr
        Back in 1961, the RAS expedition was looking there ... for it was a good preservative. Searched, searched, applied modern technology. And ... they didn’t find anything.

        In those days, good weapons and armor cost a lot of money. And the depth of Lake Peipsi is not great. I believe that the majority of those that fell to the bottom, were already caught and put into circulation next summer. They don’t throw a sunken tank today, if there is an opportunity to get it.
  4. Begemot
    Begemot 24 June 2016 07: 57
    +9
    you don’t have to knock together politicians, politicians, half-educated journalists (I know a lot of these, I personally met) and ... historians
    everything is correct, but almost only historians and a small group of interested people read historians, and politicians and under-graduates of journalists are forced to listen and see absolutely everything.
    I do not think that the banderlogs who rode on the Maidan have read at least one book written by a decent and honest historian.
    1. kalibr
      24 June 2016 08: 05
      +6
      Quote: Begemot
      I do not think that the banderlogs who rode on the Maidan have read at least one book written by a decent and honest historian.

      Otherwise, they would not have jumped there ha ha!
  5. parusnik
    parusnik 24 June 2016 08: 10
    +8
    Not bad English wrote, if you don’t pay attention to the husks, cumans, professional archers .. About Eisenstein’s film .. this is a very feature film on a historical theme ..But where the director saw such helmets from the monster and the orderly servants, well, there is no such thing in any of the museums!..Fiction .. but what! Pay attention, the helmets are chudi, somewhat similar to rat heads .. And when .. the beginning of the battle is shown .. this is it .. a bristling flock of rats climbs on the Russian land .. If Eisenstein .. dressed up "Teutons" and chud .. how it was .. it wouldn’t have been that emotional effect, the film wouldn’t have looked like that .. and so .. shot almost 73 years ago .. it still looks in the same breath ...
    Py.Sy..Fable Elephant - painter S.Mikhalkov wrote..S. Marshak did not do this ..
    1. Andrey Zh
      Andrey Zh 24 June 2016 15: 31
      +2
      The film by S. Eisenstein is beautiful and still looks!
    2. Andrey Zh
      Andrey Zh 24 June 2016 15: 31
      +1
      The film by S. Eisenstein is beautiful and still looks!
    3. kalibr
      24 June 2016 16: 04
      +1
      Quote: parusnik
      If Eisenstein ... dressed up "Teutons" and chud .. as it was .. If there was not that emotional effect, the film would not have looked like that.

      This is certainly true. Art is art, especially for its time. And this is where the director’s skill lies - it’s time to show, and to make a memorable look, and ... fit into the budget!
  6. ver_
    ver_ 24 June 2016 08: 38
    +2
    ... I wonder, where was Alexander’s father, Yaroslav, at that time? Nevsky was his right hand - a beloved and devoted son to him ..
  7. PSih2097
    PSih2097 24 June 2016 08: 48
    +4
    But where the director saw such helmets from the monster and the orderly servants, well, there is no such thing in any of the museums!

    For that, the Wehrmacht and all kinds of legionnaires who were part of it invaded the USSR in 1941 were very similar.
    1. abrakadabre
      abrakadabre 24 June 2016 09: 35
      +2
      And this most likely played a significant role in choosing the appearance of props. In addition, at that time the theme of historicity of armor was not so well developed. From this, and completely ridiculous (from the modern weaponological point of view), pot helmets, and these infantry helmets, similar to cappets and infantry salads of the 14-15th centuries. That is much later.
  8. Muhamor
    Muhamor 24 June 2016 08: 59
    -12%
    The article is empty - cow chewing gum! What if ... and if they could ... but they wouldn’t be able to .. well, it could have gone differently ... if Chud didn’t run last .. yes if she also ran there, where the master planned .. but Alexander could conceive .. Foam! One is good; the article accurately indicates where mushrooms grow.
    1. Silhouette
      Silhouette 24 June 2016 11: 25
      +6
      The article is called "The English historian Phyllis Jestays on the Battle of the Ice with remarks and comments", but in fact it can be called Reflections of a certain Shpakovsky about the film of S. Eisenstein. Confusion instead of thoughts of the Battle of the Ice. The material is presented in an unintelligible and unstructured manner, very carelessly and clumsily. It was necessary to give it to the girl who brings the author's thoughts into a digestible form, that is, she simply rewrites the article.
      1. kalibr
        24 June 2016 14: 25
        -2
        How many vacationers arrived in Partenit? Enough for the winter?
        1. Silhouette
          Silhouette 24 June 2016 16: 45
          -1
          I do not know. I'm still in St. Petersburg. I'll go on Monday - I’ll find out.
      2. Mavrikiy
        Mavrikiy 24 June 2016 18: 27
        0
        Answer for Silhouette (3)
        "I should have given it to the girl who brings the author's thoughts into a digestible form, that is, she simply rewrites the article."
        A seditious thought.
        1. Girls need to pay, at least something, if you feel sorry for the money.
        2. A girl may not understand the main idea of ​​these pieces with exclamation marks.
        1. Silhouette
          Silhouette 24 June 2016 21: 05
          +2
          You probably do not know that all the more or less intelligible articles of this author on this site have been edited beyond recognition by a certain girl. What her hand did not touch is impossible to read either in meaning or in content.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. kalibr
            26 June 2016 19: 54
            0
            What interesting things do you know about me, huh? I wonder where? But the result is important, isn't it? The loader at the store dumped the bread on the asphalt, picked it up, blew it, put it back. You haven't seen this. And it was you who got this bread. From the ground! But still bread "The result is important - you are full.
      3. kalibr
        24 June 2016 20: 50
        -4
        And someone and such a majority here understood everything as it should and do not write about "unintelligible". Maybe it just seems to you? Or maybe you have the consequences of decompression? Frequent diving?
  9. Kudrevkn
    Kudrevkn 24 June 2016 09: 55
    +10
    It should also be remembered that at the time of the Battle of the Neva, Prince Alexander Yaroslavovich was ... 18 years old, and already in the Battle of the Ice a "mature" and "battle-hardened" ... a twenty-year-old youth fought !? Yes, "we are not heroes," but we will not deny that in such a young age, only an exceptionally outstanding person, practically a demigod, could become a HERO - a Winner and a skilled military leader and ruler - a diplomat !!! Which is the Most Serene Prince Alexander Yaroslavovich Nevsky - HEAVENLY PATRON AND KEEPER OF RUSSIA (RUSSIA)! Glory to him, Glory to the entire Russian army - who gave us Russia!
    1. Mikhail Matyugin
      Mikhail Matyugin 24 June 2016 15: 21
      -5
      Quote: KudrevKN
      almost a demigod !!! Whom is the Most Serene Prince Alexander Yaroslavovich Nevsky - HEAVENLY PROTECTOR AND KEEPER OF RUSSIA (RUSSIA)! Glory to him

      You would be more careful about him. For example, read about his suppression as an Oryd Satrap of the anti-Horde uprisings of the same Suzdal or Novgorod residents, and about the mass executions carried out by his army. Unfortunately, this was an extremely ambiguous personality.

      If his brother was eventually forced to flee to Sweden, as well as his son, and he himself was killed in the Horde with the help of poison, just as "their own" (the khans killed Russian princes simply, without any frills), then perhaps this is something that says?
      1. Andrey Zh
        Andrey Zh 24 June 2016 15: 36
        +5
        Hmm, put yourself in his place - how would you behave yourself?!? Alexander Nevsky was a great commander, ruler, diplomat! And great people are not unique!
      2. Andrey Zh
        Andrey Zh 24 June 2016 15: 36
        0
        Hmm, put yourself in his place - how would you behave yourself?!? Alexander Nevsky was a great commander, ruler, diplomat! And great people are not unique!
      3. kalibr
        24 June 2016 16: 00
        +2
        Mikhail, you ... "be careful" with these words. And then they will write to you that you "lick from the West" and live on grants from the State Department. There are things that were, but ... just like that directly about them "the truth-womb" to mold ... is it worth it? Maybe somehow more streamlined, and not so immediately against the grain? However, the dogs bark, and history goes on as usual!
        1. The comment was deleted.
  10. Tulip
    Tulip 24 June 2016 10: 02
    +5
    This alerted the citizens of Novgorod, and they called on Prince Alexander, who had been expelled from the city shortly before. Alexander took over the leadership of the fight against the Swedes, using the help of the very well-trained archers who served him (I wonder where he got this from? - V.Sh.).

    This duty was assigned to representatives of Izhora, Karelian and Veps hunting tribes since the time of Rurik and they did not pay tribute (tax) on the maintenance of troops.
    Teutons
    Knights: 20
    Order "gendarmes": around 200 Danish and Estonian knights:
    about 200
    Dorpat Militia: Near 600
    Warriors of Estonian Tribes: 1000
    Total: 2000

    In assessing the number of disagree, the knight in Europe in one sting did not stagger. It was troublesome, you run into hooligans and instantly lose all your honestly looted knightly honor.
    The knight's servants were not taken into account in the accounting department of that time, since they received a small share not from the common boiler, but directly from the overlord.
    1. Rivares
      Rivares 24 June 2016 17: 54
      +1
      Quote: Tulip
      In the estimate of the number of disagree,

      I will support you!
      According to the Teutonic rhyming chronicles, only 20 knights were killed in the battle. And 6 were captured. There were still survivors.
    2. Mikhail Matyugin
      Mikhail Matyugin 24 June 2016 22: 50
      +1
      Quote: Tulip
      In assessing the number of disagree, the knight in Europe in one sting did not stagger. It was troublesome, you run into hooligans and instantly lose all your honestly looted knightly honor.

      Don't tell stories. There was even a special term "single-shielded knights" - the main contingent of professional junior officers in the armies of Europe.

      For those who had a little more people than nothing and were engaged in robbery - "knights-wolves".
  11. dionis
    dionis 24 June 2016 10: 37
    +5
    I read the article, but it’s not clear, the author mixed his comments, articles with excerpts from the book into a bunch, and you can get confused who writes.
    1. Mavrikiy
      Mavrikiy 24 June 2016 18: 32
      +1
      Quote: dionis
      I read the article, but it’s not clear, the author mixed his comments, articles with excerpts from the book into a bunch, and you can get confused who writes.

      This is called the "stream of consciousness". Modern literature, cinema, now they got to history.
  12. VSkilled
    VSkilled 24 June 2016 10: 53
    +7
    "The criminal always draws to the scene of the crime ..." ©

    So, Mr. "kind of Shpakovsky" still can't calm down.
    I note, and not without pride, that the first really voluminous article about this battle of The Great Battle on ice. Shpakovsky, V. UK. Military wargamer. 1993. oct./nov., It was just in England that I published, and back in 1993 ...

    Well - so ...

    We remember, we remember ... As, representatives of the "fifth column", freed from the "accursed scoop" (and, at the same time, from the remnants of conscience), vying with each other rushed excitedly to "lick the fifth point" of the West. Earning favors, and ... "grants", "grants", "grants"!
    But Phyllis wrote more interesting. That's why I want to give here a translation of his chapter, but, of course, with my comments, since you cannot do without them. So, we read, pp. 158-167: ...

    And, this is generally "beyond the bounds" ...

    I translate it myself - do I comment? “Where are the proofs, Billy?” ©

    We are here - by no means bast soup, we slurp cabbage soup, and we quite understand "English language", perhaps even better than you.
    And yet - yes ... And, WHO is this "Phyllis" and WHY the opinion of some "ordinary scribe from history" should be so important to us? Or, simply, "The West, as always, knows better"?

    In short. With the theme of "Battle on the Ice", Mr. "kind of Shpakovsky" crap ... Yeah ... Diligently, to please the customers, looking for "spots on the Sun", as if from the standpoint of "historical science".

    And the way he desperately "fusses under the client" is another evidence of this. It seems that the Western curators reprimanded him, or even threatened to "withdraw from the allowance."

    This persistent and even annoying "butting" with a purely artistic (!) Work by Comrade Eisenstein, says only that the film is absolutely correct.

    Hello, Mr. "sort of Shpakovsky"!

    Especially for you, "as a particularly gifted one," I repeat: Eisenstein's film is NOT a DOCUMENTARY film! (True true!)

    And there is no need, with the usual, purely Jewish "enthusiasm", to replace "salty - sour", making demands on purely ARTISTIC cinema documentary films.

    The main idea of ​​the film remains relevant to this day: in order to discourage the West from constantly climbing (well ... at least for a while!), We must regularly (and - properly!) Give this West "in the face".

    In addition to the "knight-dogs" this can be confirmed by both the "little Corsican" and the "Adik Possessed".
    1. Silhouette
      Silhouette 24 June 2016 11: 33
      0
      Eisenstein's film is artistic and propaganda, with a quite understandable amount of fiction, like "Battleship Potemkin." From an artistic point of view, it is outstanding, but from a historical point of view, a fairy tale. What is there to talk about? If someone Shpakovsky does not understand the difference between a work of art the era of unfinished communism and documentary-historical - these are its problems.
      1. Mavrikiy
        Mavrikiy 24 June 2016 18: 41
        +2
        Quote: Silhouette
        Eisenstein's film is artistic and propaganda, with a quite understandable amount of fiction, like "Battleship Potemkin." From an artistic point of view, it is outstanding, but from a historical point of view, a fairy tale. What is there to talk about? If someone Shpakovsky does not understand the difference between a work of art the era of unfinished communism and documentary-historical - these are its problems.

        Come on, dear, without stamps and labels. The term "artistic and propaganda" currently carries a negative connotation. In the days of Lenin-Stalin - positive.
        The film is a work of art. If you need accuracy, this is you in the documentary. And do not heap everything, but it will be like Shpakovsky.
    2. kalibr
      24 June 2016 14: 21
      -3
      And the money, then, you jammed? But they promised, didn't they? Or was it purely "Soviet chatter"? Like, I'm great, I'm mighty, more than the sun, higher than the clouds ... but a pittance and nema? And as for grants, yes, getting them is a mandatory requirement today for those who work in the school. I recently received a grant from the Russian Humanitarian Science Foundation - you can see it on their website, now I will publish another book under the report. Nowadays it is a common practice in universities.
      When it comes to Phyllis' work, we simply have no choice. In addition to the book by D. Nicholas, which was published, by the way, in Russian, he is the only one who has recently written about the "massacre" (and again in Russian) and this is precisely what makes his point of view interesting. And available, besides.
      And - strangely, you might think you did not read this in the article: "Namely, Phyllis Jestays, who is one of the authors of the book" The Great Battles of the Crusaders 1097-1444 ", published by the EKSMO publishing house in 2009".

      So do not rush to expose, otherwise people will laugh at your haste. It is only useful when catching fleas!

      In any case, both friends and opponents need to know in person and be informed about what they write and in what form.

      We remember, we remember ... As, representatives of the "fifth column", freed from the "accursed scoop" (and, at the same time, from the remnants of conscience), vying with each other rushed excitedly to "lick the fifth point" of the West.

      It is strange how you can "lick the West" by publishing materials on the history of Russia, telling about its glorious military history? It's stupid to write that ...
      1. Mavrikiy
        Mavrikiy 24 June 2016 18: 45
        +1
        kalibr RU Today, 14:21 ↑ ↓
        "It's strange how you can" lick the West "by publishing materials on the history of Russia, telling about its glorious military history? It's stupid to write that ..."
        You can even "lick the West" by publishing materials on the history of Russia, distorting its history.
        1. kalibr
          24 June 2016 19: 32
          -1
          So you read the above article in the original? Congratulations! Or is it all according to the good old tradition - "I have not read it, but I do not approve!" So those days, my dear, are over. Now, to say "bad" about something, you have to read it!
          1. Mavrikiy
            Mavrikiy 25 June 2016 04: 05
            +1
            Quote: kalibr
            So you read the above article in the original? Congratulations! Or is it all according to the good old tradition - "I have not read it, but I do not approve!" So those days, my dear, are over. Now, to say "bad" about something, you have to read it!

            "the above article in the original", fortunately, did not read it. What can be learned there new.
            I gave an explanation of how you can "lick the West" by publishing materials on the history of Russia.
            1. kalibr
              25 June 2016 07: 43
              0
              Quote: Mavrikiy
              "the above article in the original", fortunately, did not read it.

              Since when has ignorance become happiness? For example, I am always interested in how what we know is served for "them". How do you, for example, write for the British that the Russians lived in huts and slept on the stoves?
              1. Mavrikiy
                Mavrikiy 25 June 2016 12: 42
                0
                Quote: kalibr
                Quote: Mavrikiy
                "the above article in the original", fortunately, did not read it.

                Since when has ignorance become happiness? For example, I am always interested in how what we know is served for "them". How do you, for example, write for the British that the Russians lived in huts and slept on the stoves?

                Yes, it’s a problem ... Or maybe it’s simple: Don Petro entered the castle, crossed his forehead and fell asleep in the fireplace?
                We know what a castle, a fireplace, a knight is, although they have not been seen in the eyes. They do not know what a hut, a stove, a combatant do and do not want to know. So let them go to the Soviet school to learn history, and then maybe we will listen to them, their look. But what's the point, one word - the Germans.
  13. Andy
    Andy 24 June 2016 10: 54
    +3
    Estonian knights? this is already funny. von Tynu from Tyrva laughing if you saw their protection, a wooden shield and an iron hat. chain mail, hmm ... maybe one in a thousand. and then he took it from the dead man. this is one of the reasons why the Germans "bent" them so easily.
  14. Riv
    Riv 24 June 2016 11: 02
    +2
    Well said: legendary. It has become a legend, for sure. It is not known where it was, it is not really known when, the number of troops is also unknown, but ... it has become a legend. Why? At least the place of the battle should have been remembered by people.

    The casket opens simply: they knew how to PR well in those days. How else? This is with the crusaders in the order, as in a submarine - if you got there, then there is nowhere to go. And with Prince Alexander, the size of the squad depended primarily on its popularity. How to become popular? It is very simple: to give some stray Danes on the cabbage soup, and to tell everyone that almost stopped the second battle invasion. Personally. Riding a crane. If you also took prey at the same time, then the people will reach for you, a guarantee.

    Alexander used his chance to the fullest. Birger turned up well, and even put the prince's head under the spear himself. "Look, people, how they piled on the Danes! And without losses, which is typical." In approximately this vein, the princely squad later spread in Novgorod. The people listened and shook their heads. When Alexander left the church in Novgorod and threw a heartfelt speech, there were an overwhelming number of people willing to follow him. In general, competent self-promotion is a great thing.

    And do not underestimate the Novgorodian of that time. A little later, earplugs will become famous. They will pass along the rivers to the Urals and Astrakhan. Fire and sword. Their fathers and grandfathers were no weaker. We got used to swimming with merchants, and walking around Russia with princes. What did you want? Feudalism in the yard, there was no Russian nation yet. The Novgorodians slaughtered the Smolensk, those of the Ryazans and so on. Quite professional fighters, in no way inferior to the bollards of the order.

    In general, the Germans were paraffinized, and since the Novgorodians too were probably not small losses (a frontal hit of a heavy cavalry!), Then the production of each came out pretty well. Who remained intact - were satisfied, no one asked the opinions of the disabled. Alexander’s rating for some time exceeded 145%. A promising politician became interested in the Horde, but this is a completely different story.

    Such things .. But the moral is simple: first you work for the image, then the image works for you. And who then will be interested in how many Germans you personally sent to the next world and where was it?
    1. Mikhail Matyugin
      Mikhail Matyugin 24 June 2016 15: 26
      0
      Quote: Riv
      Alexander’s rating for some time exceeded 145%. A promising politician became interested in the Horde, but this is a completely different story.

      Well said ! Highly !
  15. Semurg
    Semurg 24 June 2016 11: 11
    0
    [quote = Tuli [/ quote]
    This duty was assigned to representatives of Izhora, Karelian and Veps hunting tribes since the time of Rurik and they did not pay tribute (tax) on the maintenance of troops.
    [Quote]
    What then prevented the Danish knights from trampling these lightly armed Veps on foot, or in your opinion they could not have caught them and without having sustained shelling fled from the battlefield, and how can infantry catch up with cavalry both in attack and in retreat. the infantry of the knights most likely remained behind and the knights need it as a fulcrum and fence behind which you can regroup in the event of a first unsuccessful attack.
  16. Alexart
    Alexart 24 June 2016 12: 07
    +3
    Firstly, there is a language barrier. Yes, foreign languages ​​are studied in schools, but studied so that only a few can learn them

    Further you can not read this set of stretches and distortions.
    1. VSkilled
      VSkilled 24 June 2016 12: 58
      +6
      Duc ... This is the "cognitive dissonance" of the West.

      And Mr. "sort of Shpakovsky" (the fact that this is his pseudonym, he somehow let slip) is a very graphic exponent of him.

      The West, for some time (between the "stars") is in full confidence that we are all "bastards" here, and "do not know languages", and it will prevail over us, well, just ... "playfully"! Yeah ...

      And, as a result, the West, absolutely confident in its quick and easy victory, is preparing the next Napoleon / Hitler.

      And then, "suddenly", comes ... that very "dissonance" comes, or, in Russian speaking: "misunderstandings."
      Like, how is that? Us, such "cool Aryans", and ... face - in ... "guano"?"Aryan"
      1. kalibr
        24 June 2016 15: 13
        0
        And, Mr. "kind of Shpakovsky" (the fact that this is his pseudonym, he somehow let it slip) - remember, dear visitor: people of my caliber and profession do not let it slip. Before they write something, they think, and this is what many are different.

        And then, "suddenly", comes ... that very "dissonance" comes, or, in Russian speaking: "misunderstandings."
        Like, how is that? Us, such "cool Aryans", and ... face - in ... "guano"?

        And then "suddenly" comes 1991, right?
        1. VSkilled
          VSkilled 24 June 2016 17: 09
          +3
          ... people of my caliber and profession do not speak out ...

          Excuse me, the "crown" is not too tight for you? Bo, your sense of self-greatness (CHSV), you have well, it's just - off scale.

          And, after all, your "caliber" is frankly exaggerated. And, "profession" ...

          You have a shameful "profession". We can say - "the third oldest", after just prostitution and prostitution from journalism.

          As Arthur Drexler said (the one who founded the Nazi party in Germany): "The winners write history ..."

          Therefore, the "profession" of historians is, excuse me, to "push" ... the current government.

          What, you sobsno, and - do.

          You studied at a Soviet university? Therefore, the "history of the VKP (b) / KPSS" was also handed over. And - "scientific communism" ... And, after all, admit it, go - everything is "excellent", isn't it?

          And if the "evil commies" remained in power, today you would be a "party card", you would "cleanse yourself" for Lenin, and - all the necessary "historical research" - would report on time.

          Ah, yes ... You, of course, as befits a Jew, all this time you kept a fig in your pocket and this does not seem to be considered?

          Vileness is like religion. "But it helped our people to survive ..." ©

          Therefore, there is no faith in your opuses, just as there is no respect for you personally. Too you, too, selflessly lick the "fifth point" to your new owners. And, in this case, your excessive zeal has the exact opposite result.

          And, 1991 ... There were worse times in the history of my country. We’ll break through.

          "Anything that doesn't kill us makes us stronger." ©
          1. kalibr
            24 June 2016 19: 43
            -3
            I not only passed the history of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, I taught it for 10 years and was a lecturer of the RK KPSS and the OK Komsomol. And he did everything professionally. But there is a difference! Then the "owners" were sent to me in different order, now I choose them myself. The crown does not shake me. And we both wave to the current government. I am a pen, and what are you doing there for your daily bread by the will of the same government. Or do the birds of God feed you? Or are you in the partisan detachment "For the Motherland, for Stalin!" fighting the "regime" in dense forests? Well, now think about who you are, what you can and who I am and what can I? You are writing all this here and how does it affect me personally? No way! Are you a member of the expert commission of the Higher Attestation Commission? No! Editor-in-chief of the journal Voprosy istorii, head of the RAS? Also no! So keep on writing. As the saying goes, Caesar is Caesar's, and locksmith's is locksmith's.
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. kalibr
                25 June 2016 08: 00
                0
                I already wrote to you that your opinion does not matter. We live in a free country where people have the right to say all sorts of nonsense and even believe in them. You and I belong to different social strata, we intersect only here, and whatever you write, it won't stop me. Have you ever tried to stop a locomotive by getting in its way? That's how it is here. My capabilities and yours are simply not comparable. So, disdain, condemn - these are all empty words. Do you feel like writing them? Write. In new conditions, people like you are allowed to blow off steam. No more ... "Proles and animals are free!"
                1. VSkilled
                  VSkilled 25 June 2016 09: 55
                  +2
                  "Prols and animals are free!"

                  Eco you - conceit ... puffs!

                  The next costs of Jewish education?
                  We belong to different social strata ...

                  This is so and - yes ... Fortunately, he never belonged to the layer of "watered-forgiving Lord" who sell their ... "social score".

                  As for the educational qualification - I have a higher education, and I know languages, and - "over the far hill" I am. And - I earn, for sure - more than yours. And what is the REAL science - I know firsthand.

                  Well, you can only be sorry. "In a Christian way." For, the conjuncture of YOUR market ... "political blowjob" is not even in stagnation, but, simply - on a steep downtrend. With the departure of EBN - this market is withering, and - the further, the - more.

                  And, therefore, in order to save income, you desperately strive to "increase the productivity" of your ... "intestines", which inevitably affects the quality of your ... opuses.
                2. Was mammoth
                  Was mammoth 25 June 2016 11: 40
                  +1
                  Quote: kalibr
                  . We belong to different social strata, intersect only here, so that you don’t write, it won't stop me

                  That's for sure! Over the past year and a half, this article in various variations on "VO" has already been printed either for the third or the fifth time. Fruitful! This time as in the name of an Englishman! But, you are working on the errors. The massively killed in the grass no longer fall in April, there is something about snow and ice, and the ratio of soldiers is no longer one to sixty, but only one to six. Progress! Isn't it a shame for the knights?
                  Quote: Verdun
                  Mistake - this is putting it mildly.

                  I agree. Not just like that, but that's all.
                  Well, and the method of "butting" in the "search for the truth" with a feature film and pictures of students of the "historian" is amazing!
                3. Mavrikiy
                  Mavrikiy 25 June 2016 15: 20
                  0
                  Quote: kalibr
                  I already wrote to you that your opinion does not matter. We live in a free country where people have the right to say all sorts of nonsense and even believe in them. You and I belong to different social strata, we intersect only here, and whatever you write, it won't stop me. Have you ever tried to stop a locomotive by getting in its way? That's how it is here. My capabilities and yours are simply not comparable. So, disdain, condemn - these are all empty words. Do you feel like writing them? Write. In new conditions, people like you are allowed to blow off steam. No more ... "Proles and animals are free!"

                  Wake up, sickly. There is no tagging, Boriski identity. Freedom of freedom fell, well, crawl from an armored train, eco sausages you. Hold the men tighter, do not catch up with him, he is almost a Jedi (I don’t know what this is, but he will probably do it).
        2. Mavrikiy
          Mavrikiy 24 June 2016 18: 51
          +1
          Quote: kalibr
          And, Mr. "kind of Shpakovsky"

          And then "suddenly" comes 1991, right?

          True, and then suddenly 2015, and these are natural misunderstandings.
  17. gcn
    gcn 24 June 2016 17: 10
    -1
    Historians do not take into account the people of that era did not kill each other at a distance, but practically looked at each other's faces and their way of life was different. Half of what we read from history is the speculation of different historians based on reliable facts of various historical events. Therefore, their books are different, they add that they are not kept, although most are very educated people.
    1. Mavrikiy
      Mavrikiy 25 June 2016 12: 57
      -1
      Quote: gcn
      Historians do not take into account the people of that era did not kill each other at a distance, but practically looked at each other's faces and their way of life was different. Half of what we read from history is the speculation of different historians based on reliable facts of various historical events. Therefore, their books are different, they add that they are not kept, although most are very educated people.

      Sorry put (-) for pacifism. By and large, it’s all the same what is written in history, but here’s how .... There is a similar doctor of historical sciences Bunich, wrote about the Russian-Japanese at sea, is very gloating about our defeat. Malevolent! You need to shoot such historians, these are enemies with bookmarks for the future. According to these stories, our children will hate their homeland.
      And you, dear, look from the side ...
  18. Rivares
    Rivares 24 June 2016 17: 19
    +2
    WESTERN VOYSKO (approximately)
    Teutons
    Knights: 20
    Order "gendarmes": around 200 Danish and Estonian knights:
    about 200
    Dorpat Militia: Near 600
    Warriors of Estonian Tribes: 1000
    Total: 2000
    NOVGORODSKAYA VOYSKO (approximately)
    Mixed forces, probably half cavalry and half infantry
    Total: about 6000

    and now rhymed chronicle!

    Those who were in the army of the knight brothers
    were surrounded.
    Russians had such a army
    that every German attacked,
    perhaps sixty people
    The Knights Brothers resisted quite stubbornly,
    but they were overpowered there.
    Part of the derpttsev out
    from the battle, it was their salvation,
    they were forced to retreat.
    Twenty knight brothers were killed there,
    and six were captured.
    That was the course of the battle.
    That is, it turns out that only the killed and captured Teutons lost 26 knights. Given Western propaganda underestimating their losses and increasing strangers (2000 * 60 = 120 thousand Russians participated in the battle of the chronicles).
    I wish the author to carefully compare the sources)
    http://www.livonia.narod.ru/research/ice_battle/rifma.htm
    1. Mavrikiy
      Mavrikiy 24 June 2016 19: 14
      0
      Quote: Rivares
      .
      I wish the author to carefully compare the sources)
      http://www.livonia.narod.ru/research/ice_battle/rifma.htm

      And where are the sources? Khazyain said - 20, the topic is closed.
      The task is: to construct a history where the noble West goes on a Crusade, brings culture and progress to the barbarians. And those stupid ones did not understand, did not understand and stupidly killed potential seniors. Collapse of "Drang nach Osten". It is impossible without sacrifices, let there be 20 dogs.
      1. Just what kind of Crusade is this, they are leaving for count hunting more.
      2. 20 dogs were lowered under ice and the question is closed for 300 years. A very big problem turns out. And all of England and Shpakovsky can do nothing with this.
      3. The guys went to rob and got the teeth. But the Vatican then had to assemble a more serious corps, so there are 50 knights.
      4. There was such a bummer, so many dogs trampled down, that no one had already stuttered about the double.
      5. And the sources of the Teutons, they are about one thing, which knights are brave and powerful. Well, the production is also good. And failures, but went on a picnic, and savages ... what was taken from them?
      6. Brains include Shpakovsky and do not sing all crap.
      1. Rivares
        Rivares 24 June 2016 19: 23
        +4
        By the way, the British historians who appear in the article, when most of them write about the Second World War, on the Soviet side do not even mention the numbers and the composition of the Soviet divisions. The Soviet army in their books appears as a gray mass diluted by the commissioners, who drive this mass in the direction indicated by Stalin) At best, they mentioned the army number ...
      2. kalibr
        24 June 2016 20: 09
        -1
        I didn’t seem to drink with the Brudershaft with you, huh? Or are you one of those boors that at one time poked everyone in a row, because you yourself were from hegemons? And so as not to spoil the crap for a start, look at PSRL. There is no England, there is no Shpakovsky ... if you have enough mind, you'll figure it out.
        1. Looking for
          Looking for 25 June 2016 12: 18
          -1
          and you know. many of the so-called hegemons are much more educated. more cultural and humane, many representatives of intillegence. or whatever they call themselves. Or maybe you will be from hereditary pillars ?.
        2. Mavrikiy
          Mavrikiy 25 June 2016 13: 28
          0
          Quote: kalibr
          I didn’t seem to drink with the Brudershaft with you, huh? Or are you one of those boors that at one time poked everyone in a row, because you yourself were from hegemons? And so as not to spoil the crap for a start, look at PSRL. There is no England, there is no Shpakovsky ... if you have enough mind, you'll figure it out.

          Already do not remember who they drank, do you want to make sure? I certify that God was merciful to me, for sure.
          I'll clarify. With the hegemons in the family tense, we are from the plow. But send a stranger to 4 unfamiliar letters, but you are a highly educated vertuosis, my friend. I made do with three and no one came back, I see enough. And with four, probably for sure, you can become a man. Only give it this way, "God of God, Caesar of Caesar." This is me about debt. And if you, sir, make a mistake again in accents, then it’s not a sin to correct me, but you should not be ashamed.
      3. Mikhail Matyugin
        Mikhail Matyugin 24 June 2016 23: 10
        +1
        Quote: Mavrikiy
        And those stupid ones didn't understand, didn't understand and stupidly killed potential seniors. Collapse of "Drang nach Osten". It is impossible without sacrifices, let there be 20 dogs.
        1. Just what kind of Crusade is this, they are leaving for count hunting more.

        Do you really and don’t know that the Crusade itself didn’t happen? and by the way was there a retaliatory Russian invasion of the order lands?

        Quote: Mavrikiy
        20 dogs were let down under the ice, and for 300 years the question is closed. A very big problem turns out.
        All problems are from a lack of your education, sorry. You do not understand the difference between objective history and propaganda. In order not to argue, just read about the Battle of Raquor.
        1. Mavrikiy
          Mavrikiy 25 June 2016 04: 17
          0
          Quote: Mikhail Matyugin

          Do you really and don’t know that the Crusade itself didn’t happen?


          Oh, that's how, curious. But a well-respected author, a major specialist, having worked closely with the primary sources and checked with their luminaries, states something else:

          "The efforts of Guillelmo di Modena to raise the western army on a crusade were crowned with significant success, to a certain extent because the kings of Sweden and Denmark tried to somehow advance in an eastern direction, and therefore the" crusade "was very suitable for them as a way of disguising their own aspirations under pious deeds , "
          Therefore, the author and I are forced to return yours to you:
          "All problems are from your lack of education, sorry." Or is your author not already educated?
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. Mikhail Matyugin
            Mikhail Matyugin 25 June 2016 09: 01
            0
            Quote: Mavrikiy
            to a certain extent because the kings of Sweden and Denmark tried to somehow advance in the eastern direction, and therefore the "crusade" was very suitable for them as a way to disguise their own aspirations under pious deeds, "

            I don't even want to argue. Read what the "Great Ferry" is, i.e. the actual Crusade as it is, according to the views of the Europeans of that time, the conditions for its announcement and participation.
            I hope to understand what is the difference from the private expeditions of local overlords.

            And again - read about Rakvor, a really great battle between Russians and Europeans, rather than a generally insignificant skirmish on Lake Peipsi that was pulled out "on the shield".
            1. Mavrikiy
              Mavrikiy 25 June 2016 13: 40
              -1
              Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
              Quote: Mavrikiy
              to a certain extent because the kings of Sweden and Denmark tried to somehow advance in the eastern direction, and therefore the "crusade" was very suitable for them as a way to disguise their own aspirations under pious deeds, "

              I don't even want to argue. Read what the "Great Ferry" is, i.e. the actual Crusade as it is, according to the views of the Europeans of that time, the conditions for its announcement and participation.
              I hope to understand what is the difference from the private expeditions of local overlords.

              And again - read about Rakvor, a really great battle between Russians and Europeans, rather than a generally insignificant skirmish on Lake Peipsi that was pulled out "on the shield".

              Dear apponent tortured by all kinds of crap, have you read the article? This is a paragraph from the article "AUTHOR in the studio!" By the way, teach him, you can lightly kick, do not hesitate, here everyone is equal. And he will send you to the PSRL. So you will have a wedding.
              So two educated loneliness met. And Vanya helped them from the plow.
    2. kalibr
      24 June 2016 19: 45
      -1
      I would say that to Jestals, but I don’t know his address. This is basically its material and its data. You read my article with data from Russian annals here!
      1. Mavrikiy
        Mavrikiy 25 June 2016 13: 47
        0
        Quote: kalibr
        I would say that to Jestals, but I don’t know his address. This is basically its material and its data. You read my article with data from Russian annals here!

        Sorry, was I obliged to read it? Or what, a bonfire, dungeons? Is this a young fighter course? Ah, this is a voluntary matter. Honestly, I didn’t read, because I didn’t see it.
  19. Just a man
    Just a man 24 June 2016 18: 15
    +3
    Historical events are interpreted by different parties in their own way. The more you plunge into the whirlpool of possible options for historical facts, the more you realize that at least 10 layers of lies are layered on the truth. How long has our great VICTORY in WWII been, and look how now whole regiments of pseudo-historians and couch strategists vulgarize it. The best historical truth is the memory of the people and pride in their history.
  20. a housewife
    a housewife 24 June 2016 20: 41
    0
    All this is strange. A feature film as a historical work! Helmets are not like that! What they could do at that time, they were removed. You never know tolerances in the cinema! When shooting the film, they wanted to use real medieval pipes. But the roar came out on the tape so that they used the sound of modern instruments. The infantry could not catch up with the cavalry! Comrades, since we have begun to judge historical facts by fiction films, remember how in "Ivan Vasilyevich" the army went on a campaign: first, horse-drawn cannons (naturally), then cavalry, then foot shooters. "Maroussia is silent and sheds tears ..." And what, and what is not an example? And the fact that a man cannot keep up with a tank? Nevertheless, the infantry followed the tanks. Kulikovo field ... In the 19th century, one landowner made a PR move. He erected a monument and announced that he personally discovered the site of the battle of Kulikova ... on his lands. Comrades, historical tourism was already there. The curious came to the estate. I am undoubtedly a product of language learning in a simple Soviet school. If I read anything, then with a dictionary and only in German. In addition, she is used to trusting our historians, in particular the staff of the Historical Museum. Therefore, when I watched the program about the Kulikovo field, I believed and continue to believe that it is not for nothing that in Moscow as nowhere else there are so many old names associated with "sandpipers, Easter cakes, etc." And already in these places a huge number of skulls with bones and armor and weapons were found. It seems crazy to us, we thought it was somewhere far away. And this is the center of Moscow today.
    1. kalibr
      24 June 2016 20: 59
      0
      Quote: housewife
      found a huge number of skulls with bones and armor and weapons.

      From now on, tell the SHM staff in more detail. They will thank you if you also indicate where it all went. And "Ivan Vasilyevich ..." should not be equated with "Alexander". In "Ivan ..." and the horse laughs. For a comedy just right, but in "Alexander" it would hardly have looked, eh?
    2. Mikhail Matyugin
      Mikhail Matyugin 24 June 2016 22: 44
      0
      Quote: housewife
      The infantry could not catch up with the cavalry!

      Imagine, I didn’t catch up! And infantry and cavalry mixed only the most foolish of the generals.

      Quote: housewife
      And the fact that a man behind a tank does not steal? Nevertheless, the infantry followed the tanks

      Invalid example. By the way, the effectiveness of the Soviet infantry, following the Pawn on tanks well, is very questionable. But the Germans were riding armored personnel carriers - and by the way, why in the Soviet Army after the war urgently began to actively use precisely the German-style motorized infantry?

      Quote: housewife
      Therefore, when I watched the program about the Kulikovo field, I believed and continue to believe that it is not for nothing that in Moscow as nowhere else there are so many old names associated with "sandpipers, Easter cakes, etc."
      Well mother, you give! No normal historian in a sober mind will listen to the Nosovskys' nonsense about "Kulishki". In contrast to the battle on Lake Peipsi, quite a lot of finds of weapons of the XIV century were made just on the Kulikovo field.
  21. Aviator_
    Aviator_ 24 June 2016 21: 18
    +3
    Eisenstein's helmets are clearly made with a hint of Nazi helmets
  22. Poplar505
    Poplar505 24 June 2016 21: 26
    -2
    I don't remember where, but I read somewhere that Prince A.Ya. Nevsky was canonized at the turn of the XNUMXth and XNUMXth centuries. Until his death he was not baptized. This surprised me greatly, I remember it and explains a lot. (at least why the so-called "Mongol-Tatar yoke" did not reach Novgorod, but it was a punitive raid of Siberian Rus on the cities that accepted the peasantry.), (why such a late canonization?), etc.
  23. karavay82
    karavay82 24 June 2016 23: 07
    +2
    Another story with sediment.
    Of course, I want to write another word, but banned.
    You sit and think, but well done, we’ll tuck our history and attach it to the COMMUNIST propaganda, which used everything so that our common man fiercely hates everyone who comes from the west.
    And it turns out that Alexander Nevsky did not liberate the Russian lands from the Teutons, Danes and K, but raided, and turned only when his avant-garde was defeated at the bridge.
    And so by chance they wrote that he was expelled from Novgorod 2 times, while a good man will not be trampled from the prince's place.
    And the fact that his army was professional, that his wars were direct special forces.
    But the Teutons and K were straight innocent sheep, could not get together, attacked separately, and even for faith, and the poor things were chased by Alexander (6000 commandos), almost ten.
    And in the end, Alexander captured as many as 20 knights, probably dressed his armor, but how could such a battle, but no prisoners. Again they will trample from Novgorod.
    The feeling of the article- Lake Peipsi is shallow, no one can drown there, and you can’t show the Raven Stone, which means there was no Ice Battle.
    And the Teutons and K, so they didn’t even capture a couple of deaf settlements, and they themselves, for centuries to protect themselves from Russian bears, remained slaves for centuries.
    And our historians are sitting and silent, so over our story every blogger will begin to cast out, give me pictures, give eyewitnesses, and still come up with.
    And also the film was dragged in, and the helmets were not like that and there were no fights, and only the knights were drowning.
    They invented it in the film, which means they also invented the Battle of Ice, and we, in Europe, wanted such paws and didn’t take anyone and convert to Catholicism with a cross and a sword, and there they’ll take out the land.
    Become scared for our descendants ...
    1. Mikhail Matyugin
      Mikhail Matyugin 25 June 2016 09: 07
      +1
      Quote: karavay82
      And in the end, Alexander already captured 20 knights,

      Well, actually, ALL knights were captured by 40 or even 50 people according to Russian chronicles, i.e. in addition to the 6 order brothers, there were others.

      Quote: karavay82
      And also the film was dragged in, and the helmets were not like that and there were no fights, and only the knights were drowning.

      The funny thing is that in terms of severity of arms, the Russian combatant exceeded the European knight at the beginning of the 13th century.
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 25 June 2016 09: 13
        +2
        Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
        The funny thing is that, according to the severity of the weapons, the Russian warrior EXCEEDED the European knight at the beginning of the XIII century.

        Could you tell me more about weight? Not a connoisseur. hi
        1. Mikhail Matyugin
          Mikhail Matyugin 25 June 2016 11: 39
          +1
          Quote: Mordvin 3
          Could you tell me more about weight?

          Well, the Russian warriors had, in addition to the chain mail, lamellars, while the knights did not particularly practice this. Did you hear about horse armor? So, it was rare in the XII century among European knights, and among Rusichs, but in the XIII century sharply Rusichs began to use it, especially during the arrival of the Mongols.

          In general, all around the cliches ... Just read about Raquor. And about Omovzhu.
        2. Mavrikiy
          Mavrikiy 25 June 2016 14: 16
          -1
          Quote: mordvin xnumx
          Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
          The funny thing is that, according to the severity of the weapons, the Russian warrior EXCEEDED the European knight at the beginning of the XIII century.

          Could you tell me more about weight? Not a connoisseur. hi

          Oh, what are you ...
          I will tell you a secret there are big problems in everything, contradictions are called, oh.
          Twenty knight-pedraders came out against 20 heavily armored almost Chukchi and died. Since the god of mind did not give them the way, but ... Bullshit, everything is sewn with white thread.
          They assembled a crusade, though more modestly, after all, they did not go for the "Holy Sepulcher", and so, in the correct faith, tilt, clean up the land, it seems to lie and disappear. And they got a complete defeat. From almost savage natives, it's a shame.
          So we were few, there were many, but we forgot the way there. Ivot pearl at all times: who led the crusaders .... Yes, the victory of the fathers is legion, defeat is always an orphan.
          And you are the weight of a calculator. The Germans then still bent down what he carried, kneeling.
          1. Mikhail Matyugin
            Mikhail Matyugin 25 June 2016 17: 02
            +2
            Quote: Mavrikiy
            20 knightedpedors came out against 1000 heavily armored almost Chukchi and died. Since the god of mind did not give them the way, but.

            By the way, yes, I just can’t just characterize the actions of the anti-Russian coalition.

            And about the numbers - in general, the basis of Alexander’s troops was the Novgorod militia, in general, almost armless warriors. But heavily armed warriors - yes 1000 even the Grand Duke of Kiev did not have them! The largest squad recorded in the annals is 700 warriors! The greatest princes COULD CONTAIN such uberprofy (equal to knights or cooler) - 400-500 people of everything. The average squad of the prince is 100-200 man of everything! The small princes had 50-80 warriors.

            Well, it's expensive to keep such a uberprofi.
            But it’s effective: according to the annals, the battle is known when the TWELVE Christian prince vigilantes defeated and almost massacred three hundred peasants and townspeople of the pagan militia (suppressed the rebellion).

            Another case is known when the Livonian army, in which there were about 200 infantry and non-knights in general (which in fact hardly even entered the battle), and in which there were LESS THAN FIFTY KNIGHTS, defeated according to various sources the 600-800 of the Pskov city police ( they didn’t have what Alexander had on Lake Peipsi - skillful tactics and heavy knightly cavalry).
  24. 1536
    1536 25 June 2016 02: 18
    -1
    Alexander Yaroslavich Nevsky is numbered among the Russian Orthodox Church. And his exploits are immortal!
    And there is nothing to analyze here, mixing historical facts with fiction?
    The memory and exploits of Alexander Nevsky are inviolable!
    1. Mikhail Matyugin
      Mikhail Matyugin 25 June 2016 09: 10
      -2
      Quote: 1536
      The memory and exploits of Alexander Nevsky are inviolable!

      Excuse me, what kind of memory are you talking about? about the dead inhabitants of Vladimir-Suzdal Rus, to which he led the Horde punitive army?

      Or the memory of his former comrades-in-arms and Tatars of his former comrades-in-arms on the Neva Battle and Lake Peipsi, who opposed the SHAMLESS passage without the battle of the Novgorod Republic under the Horde?

      You see, among large historical figures, especially in troubled times, their memory seems to be very different.
      1. Mavrikiy
        Mavrikiy 25 June 2016 14: 37
        0
        Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
        Quote: 1536
        The memory and exploits of Alexander Nevsky are inviolable!

        Excuse me, what kind of memory are you talking about? about the dead inhabitants of Vladimir-Suzdal Rus, to which he led the Horde punitive army?

        Or the memory of his former comrades-in-arms and Tatars of his former comrades-in-arms on the Neva Battle and Lake Peipsi, who opposed the SHAMLESS passage without the battle of the Novgorod Republic under the Horde?

        You see, among large historical figures, especially in troubled times, their memory seems to be very different.

        Dear, in the last sentence the preposition is not "U", but "O", do I understand correctly?
        You don’t understand anything in memory, alas. I will explain. The memory is one and its very correctly signified by a higher comrade. This is enshrined in the memory of the people by the church. And this is such a lump, you can’t move, the navel is not enough.
        And this is a different memory for the liberals to tear up history. There is a FACT and there is a fact. And they kicked out of Novgorod, but more than once !!! And did you slaughter the freedom-loving townspeople? lowered under the ice. No? I sold it to the Tatars. And history is being written quietly. I made an image for myself by the Battle of the Neva, oh well done! Suvorov himself also made an Alpine campaign. I don’t understand, I would sit on the stove, and he says: "No, I want my image! Not worse than Bonaparte!"
        1. Mikhail Matyugin
          Mikhail Matyugin 25 June 2016 16: 49
          +3
          Quote: Mavrikiy
          The memory is one and its very correctly signified by a higher comrade. This is enshrined in the memory of the people by the church. And this is such a lump, you can’t move, the navel is not enough.

          But you yourself see - there is a difference between propaganda (whether Soviet, church) - and real history, real facts.

          And the image has nothing to do with it, just a large-scale historical figure must be evaluated in a complex, and not for one battle won. And it is precisely when viewed as a whole that Prince Alexander Nevsky will be a very, very well not particularly pleasant character (although of course it is much better than daddy).
          1. Mavrikiy
            Mavrikiy 26 June 2016 08: 33
            -2
            Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
            Quote: Mavrikiy
            The memory is one and its very correctly signified by a higher comrade. This is enshrined in the memory of the people by the church. And this is such a lump, you can’t move, the navel is not enough.

            But you yourself see - there is a difference between propaganda (whether Soviet, church) - and real history, real facts.

            And the image has nothing to do with it, just a large-scale historical figure must be evaluated in a complex, and not for one battle won. And it is precisely when viewed as a whole that Prince Alexander Nevsky will be a very, very well not particularly pleasant character (although of course it is much better than daddy).

            We see some facts and draw opposite conclusions. But everything is simple and nothing to do with propaganda.
            1. "a large-scale historical figure should be assessed as a whole, and not for one won battle" Who argues. There were many princes. But why did the figure suddenly become historical? A lot of stories in the chronicles about him? He fought with enemies, crushed riots, took the dues with battle, bowed to the Tatars ... Score 1: 3, it turns out uncomfortable, and also a historical figure. Only in history +/- does not work, but it is convenient, clear. Folded, divided and deduced a score of 4,31. Yes, you did not reach my friends. There is a different principle in history. Mark on history. It's not about the battle, but where the story went after him.
            Yes, the story went wrong, not by vector. The Germans would come, build each one a personal lock (a German, and we would build, under their strict guidance) and we would get lace shorts 800 years earlier. Just let’s not belittle Nevsky, not patriotically, like that. Let's curse the Germans, they turned everyone into true faith with fire and a sword, and we were DROPPED because of 20 undershots, which we chopped in the heat of fire. This is fairer. We got a boot and forgot the road, not chivalrously like that. And they took the loot for the campaign, but did not work out. They did not bring new souls to their God. It can be seen there is not a tent, but a vein was cut. Wishing to abruptly disappeared. By the way, Shpakovsky delirium about surprise, small forces, unpreparedness, who could know, can be safely discarded. Intelligence has been at all times. And we had enough merchants-Westerners, we supplied information. And about the squad, and about mobility.

            2. All pressed, bowed, fought, but did not become historical figures, although they are mentioned in the annals. Sitting on the couch, you can't see what he beat his own, he called out strangers and again beat his own. As Balzaminov said: "The newspapers write dully about this"

            3. Religious propaganda. Well no. This is the memory of the people, otherwise we will forget our name. The church saved us from this.

            So it turns out the trace he left deep and wide in history. And he became a historical person, of my Motherland, with a big plus sign.
            1. Mikhail Matyugin
              Mikhail Matyugin 26 June 2016 09: 46
              +1
              Quote: Mavrikiy
              Religious propaganda. Well no. This is the memory of the people, otherwise we will forget our name. The church saved us from this.

              It’s just that I pointed out that the memory of the people was formed by political needs, through religious propaganda — by Ivan the Terrible, who wanted Livonia, then Peter the Great, who wanted the Baltic, and then Stalin.

              Contemporaries and descendants of the closest seemed to be in no hurry with canonization; they too remembered the atrocities and loyalty to the Tatar enslavers apparently.

              Quote: Mavrikiy
              He fought with enemies, crushed riots, took the dues with battle, bowed to the Tatars ... Account 1: 3,
              Those. is licking at the enemy of the motherland - is that good in your opinion? After all, you probably don’t know (or don’t want to know?) That there were princes who fought against the Mongols and tried in every possible way to uphold the independence of Russia (even his own brother, on whom he brought the Horde punitive corps).

              Quote: Mavrikiy
              Everyone crushed, bowed, fought, but did not become historical figures, although they are mentioned in the annals.
              That's exactly not all! Many canonized princes were killed by the Horde, precisely because they kept their faith clean and rejected pagan rites. And many fought with the Tatars, but not all bowed! Just the clan of Yaroslav and his descendants were the most faithful Horde allies in Russia and therefore took a dominant position.

              Quote: Mavrikiy
              We’ll curse the Germans, they turned everyone into true faith with fire and a sword, and because of 20 weevils, they chopped us in the heat of fire chopped. This is fairer. We got a boot and forgot the road, not knightly like that
              Now I will ask a terrible question: you know the facts of the forcible conversion to Catholicism already baptized for 200 years before this Rusich-Christians in the Baltic States orders ? The Germans owned Kopr and Pskov for a sufficient time even during that war, so what? how many have they converted "into their faith" such Christians (if not to take the propaganda and deceitful footage of Eisenstein's film)? Even the Russian chronicle gives dry facts - administrators were installed AND EVERYTHING.

              The problem for perception is that the war of Alexander Nevsky and the Livonian coalition - it was a classic feudal dispute over possessions, it was not a religious war.
              1. Mavrikiy
                Mavrikiy 27 June 2016 10: 56
                +1
                Answer for Mikhail Matyugin Yesterday,

                You and Akhedzhakova, for a couple, write the repentance "Forgive us Knights". I think several tens of thousands will sign it with pleasure. It won't be propaganda or politics. It will be from the bottom of my heart. That's just what ...
  25. Uncle Murzik
    Uncle Murzik 25 June 2016 03: 00
    +1
    and when Mr. Shpakovsky analyzes the film "Kingdom of Heaven!" belay laughing Our "gentlemen" love to sprinkle ashes on their heads! hi
    1. kalibr
      25 June 2016 08: 03
      0
      The material about the knights of Outremer is ready, so you will read it soon.
      1. Mavrikiy
        Mavrikiy 25 June 2016 15: 35
        0
        Quote: kalibr
        The material about the knights of Outremer is ready, so you will read it soon.

        Let's just do it, with the same mesanthropy and laughter as the Battle of the Ice.
    2. Mikhail Matyugin
      Mikhail Matyugin 25 June 2016 09: 12
      +3
      Quote: Uncle Murzik
      and when Mr. Shpakovsky analyzes the film "Kingdom of Heaven!" belay laughing like our "gentlemen" to sprinkle ashes on their heads!

      Why wait? For example, I have articles just about the events described in the film "Kingdom of Heaven", including the beginning of the cycle about Reynald de Chatillon.
      1. Uncle Murzik
        Uncle Murzik 25 June 2016 10: 33
        +1
        I am pleased to read your articles! good otherwise Western stamps of Mr. Shpakovsky are not interesting to me
  26. Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 25 June 2016 04: 45
    +1
    "It was not for nothing that in the past, Russian nobles also assigned foreign tutors to their children, and they themselves loved to travel" there "and often hid from justice there."
    So even now hiding there. Yes, languages ​​are very useful to learn.
  27. Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 25 June 2016 21: 58
    +2
    Dear Vyacheslav Olegovich, I’m probably not ready to read this article of yours yet. Why did you decide to comment? And I failed, In Middle Aged Europe Through your earlier articles. I recently read 2 articles about medieval miniatures. I wanted to read related topics, but I read about Makarevich , I saw earlier articles about the Battle of the Ice. Then I will read it. Sincerely
  28. kumaxa
    kumaxa 26 June 2016 05: 29
    0
    so something I didn’t understand! again, we want to take some kind of arrogant Saxon victory. the type is not a battle, and so the tusnyak came out of our ancestors with nothing !!! what is the point of the article ??? steep knights in a minority ran over ours which were in the majority and raked from them.
  29. Mikhail Matyugin
    Mikhail Matyugin 26 June 2016 09: 54
    +1
    Quote: kumaxa
    Otyat.type is not a battle, and so the tusnyak at our ancestors went out of the way !!!

    More or less like this. Not a massacre, not a religious war, in general it was just a "strong arrow" for the question - who from where to take the babos.

    On the part of the Baltic coalition, somewhere around 600-1000 there are approximately warriors (of which there are several dozen knights), on the part of the Novgorod coalition (Rusich, Finno-Ugric tribes, Polovtsy, apparently, as the Orydny auxiliary detachment), there are approximately 2-3 thousand people (of them apparently a couple of hundred heavy knight cavalry).
    1. Mavrikiy
      Mavrikiy 27 June 2016 10: 49
      -1
      Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
      Quote: kumaxa
      Otyat.type is not a battle, and so the tusnyak at our ancestors went out of the way !!!

      More or less like this. Not a massacre, not a religious war, in general it was just a "strong arrow" for the question - who from where to take the babos.

      What a true, correct, liberally sustained view of history. There are no peoples, there are arrows and graters. There are the right guys and radishes. And Napoleon came to punish Alexander 1, for offense, and Hitler was afraid of the insidious East despot.
      You say the loot is not divided. You are lying, sir.
  30. Olegater
    Olegater 26 June 2016 16: 52
    +1
    Maybe Enough allow rewriting OUR the story of all kinds of foreign parrots. What if we decide TRUE tell their story in which there is nothing heroic but only robberies of murder, completely meanness and betrayal, and even worse. Permanent genocide of weak nations and the destruction of dissent? How then will these Western historians make excuses?
    1. kalibr
      26 June 2016 19: 28
      0
      Try it! It will be a very interesting and worthy job. There is a novel by Maurice Druon "Damned Kings" and there ... and what is not there. Without embellishment! If you write better not only about this period ... it will be great!
      1. cazac
        cazac 10 November 2017 12: 33
        0
        I think it will not work. Why? Yes, because you have to write about your history in black colors, and this has already been written about Russia.
  31. Jääkorppi
    Jääkorppi 27 June 2016 16: 40
    0
    Not with the Germans, not a German bishop, but Danish !! The knights are different, but the conflict is not with the Germans, but with the Danes !!!
  32. ver_
    ver_ 30 September 2016 12: 31
    0
    Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
    Quote: Duke
    Alexander Nevsky is canonized as the noble prince. Among these saints are laymen who have become famous for their sincere deep faith and good deeds, as well as Orthodox rulers who have managed to remain faithful to Christ in their public ministry and in various political conflicts.
    Sincere faith and good deeds? And what about the observance of Mongolian customs? Maybe the twinning with Sartak was made without Mongolian pagan customs? Does Orthodoxy know such a custom?

    Good deeds - well, you tell the tortured Suzdal people and Nizhny Novgorod, who fought for him on the Neva and Lake Peipsi, and on which he later induced the Tatar rati as the TOP Tatar tributary.

    Quote: Duke
    Through the efforts of Alexander Nevsky, the preaching of Christianity spread to the northern lands of Pomors. He also managed to contribute to the creation of an Orthodox diocese in the Golden Horde.
    Yeah. Which was created thanks to the labors of his father Yaroslav, the main ally and apparently conductor of the Batu army in Russia.

    Well, you know, well, among canonized saints there are much more unequivocal and much better personalities than Prince Alexander Yaroslavich.

    You’ll still remember - what is it that Peter I, who was himself declared “the Tsar-Antichrist” (what is it, eh?), Put forward almost to the main saints of Russia?


    ..it’s not everything is so smooth .. Alexander’s father, Yaroslav Vsevolodovich = Batu Khan executed Prince Chernigov in the Golden Horde because he refused the ancient faith - refused to bow to the Bush (sacred grove), and ordered Alexander to catch up and punish his brother Andrei. .. What Nevsky did - he caught up and executed his brother (he ran on the run ..) .. The Emperor - Holy Father - Yaroslav = John Kalita zealously preserved the ancient faith (foundations of the state) and uprooted the sprouts planted by the Jews of Christianity ...
    Then his campaign followed (the second Hun invasion of Europe and the founding of the Vatican.)
  33. wax
    wax 16 December 2016 18: 20
    0
    An interesting situation, however: the "objective" English (!) Historian and no less "objective" Vyacheslav Shpakovsky described how 6000 Russians, led by Prince Alexander Yaroslavovich, beat 2000 foreigners with 20 (!) Knights on Lake Peipsi (3-fold superiority! Moreover, the Russians were on the defensive on the steep bank at the Crow Stone. And for such victories (not by skill, but by number), already in the 13th century, Alexander Nevsky began to be revered as a saint and almost 400 years before the Bolsheviks and Eisenstein, the prince was officially canonized, Peter the Great laid the foundation for the Alexander Nevsky Lavra, Catherine established the order ...
    Why present unscrupulous compilations of Western historians for objective research?
  34. Berkut24
    Berkut24 16 January 2017 11: 10
    0
    "This is evidenced at least by the behavior of the local Estonian soldiers, who probably did not feel the disposition to fight at all and, as sources tell us, fled as soon as they saw the enemy formation deployed in the distance."
    Apparently, NATO remembers this!
    1. abarth
      abarth 16 March 2017 17: 24
      0
      These are Gdov, writers, numerous articles about the battle on the ice, this is a cross and a chapel directly on Lake Chud. they went to plunder Novgorod and as a result of a hassle decided to go over and fill these faces with the Russians, but something went wrong)))) and this is the simplest explanation
      1. abarth
        abarth 16 March 2017 17: 29
        0
        pictures are not loaded ((((
  35. Weyland
    Weyland 31 July 2017 07: 44
    0
    "And then there were several knightly units. Nobody could bring them into one unit, this is direct damage to the knightly honor. And they entered the battle in parts and were eventually defeated."

    Yeah, that’s exactly what the knights usually fought for - and that’s why there were often beats. Only all this applies to ordinary knights - and not orderly! And the Teutons, and the Templars, and the Hospitallers won such fame because they, together with excellent training, also had iron discipline, and the ability to fight in the ranks!
  36. The comment was deleted.
  37. Evgenii Xolod
    Evgenii Xolod 18 October 2017 01: 04
    0
    It seems that there are cases when an arrow fired from a bow pierced the rider right through. It’s just that it’s much easier to shoot from a crossbow and that’s why it gained such popularity, you’ll agree to spend 90 kg on a bow arrow and turn a crossbow winch is not the same thing. in Russia was known as a dump truck. Militia weapons, tobish poorly trained. For some reason, the onion has some strange attitude from article to article, I think this is completely correct. And the question is, in what battle in Europe were such losses of knights ????
  38. cazac
    cazac 10 November 2017 12: 27
    0
    “Nevertheless, the maneuver on the frozen lake was enough to bring Alexander victory in the battle on Lake Peipsi, which the Russians also call the“ Battle of the Ice. ” Interestingly, did the traces of the battle at least somehow survive on Lake Peipsi? The answer is no. There are no monuments about these events, nor finds confirming that the events took place here. But the event in Russian (world) history still left a mark.
    For example: Ostroh Bible: "Augustus like a wall of water, thickening the waves in the middle of the sea." "Melting all that dwell in Canaan," and further "And the video of the son of Israel of Egypt was measured at the edge of the sea."
    Or as Flavius ​​writes: “And let no one be amazed at the extraordinary nature of the story ... After all, not so long ago, the Pamphylian Sea also retreated before the army of the Macedonian king Alexander ... and gave him the opportunity to pass ... All historians who describe the deeds of Alexander agree with this." of course here about Macedonian, but still Alexander.