Military Review

Perspective gun for army and police

110
For a long time there is talk about the need to replace the outdated PM pistol. Back in 80-ies, the development of a promising pistol on the topic "Rook" was started. Samples were created weaponsthat meet the requirements of the military. These were the SPS, GSH-18, PY pistols and the upgraded Makarov PMM pistols. The PMM pistol used 9x18 mm PMM cartridges with a lightweight conical bullet and an increased powder powder charge, the ATP pistol used powerful cartridges with an 9X21 mm armor-piercing bullet (the cartridge was made on the basis of the standard 9XX18 mm cartridge case), in a chit-ch ch phone mode. rather, their Russian counterparts 18H9 and 19H7 with increased penetration ability of the bullet. Let's dive into historyto understand the tasks assigned to Russian gunsmiths.


First, let's return to the post-war competition for a new pistol for the army and police of the USSR.

Revolver Nagant was adopted in tsarist Russia and the beginning of the Second World War was considered a morally obsolete model. In Nagan, cartridges were used with a cylindrical bullet recessed into the sleeve with a low stopping and stopping effect. The advantages of the revolver were the simplicity and reliability of the design, the subsonic speed of the bullet and the ability to use a silencer, the absence of a breakthrough of powder gases between the drum and the barrel due to the drum pulling on the barrel, high accuracy and accuracy of shooting at a distance up to 50 m. The disadvantages include a weak cartridge and the inconvenience of reloading the 7-m charging drum.

The TT pistol was created in 1930 by the famous gunsmith Fyodor Tokarev and was put into service under the name TT-33. The weapon uses the scheme of automation with recoil of the barrel, coupled with the shutter. The design resembles the Colt M1911 and Browning 1903 pistols. Used for firing ammunition 7,62x25 mm, created on the basis of the German Mauser cartridge. The 7,62 mm bullet carries energy around 500 J and has a high penetration effect (capable of penetrating Kevlar body armor without rigid elements). The gun has a single-action trigger trigger in the form of a single unit, instead of a safety catch, the trigger is applied to the safety platoon, the single-row magazine for 8 cartridges is used in the pistol. The advantages of the TT include high accuracy and accuracy of shooting at a distance of 50 m, a powerful cartridge with high bullet penetration, simplicity of design and the possibility of minor repairs. The disadvantages include the insufficient stopping effect of the bullet, the rather low survivability of the structure, the danger of circulation due to the lack of a full fuse, the possibility of spontaneous loss of the magazine when the latch tooth is worn, the inability to effectively use a silencer due to the supersonic speed of the bullet, the absence of a self-dial.

Makarov pistol was developed in accordance with the requirements of the military in the competition 1947-1948. To replace the TT pistol and Nagant revolver.

Perspective gun for army and police

Pistol PM


The weapon was put into service in the pistol-cartridge complex. For firing, 9x18 mm cartridges with a 9,25 mm caliber round bullet are used, which are slightly more powerful than a foreign cartridge 9x17 K. A bullet weighing 6,1 grams leaves the PM barrel at a speed of 315 m / s and carries energy around 300 J. forms to increase the breakdown of action in non-solid objects. The stopping effect of a blunt-nosed bullet is quite high for an unprotected target, but the penetrative action leaves much to be desired. In 2000, the 9х18 mm PBM cartridge was created with an armor-piercing bullet weighing just 3,7 g and speed 519 m / s. The armor penetration of the new cartridge is 5 mm at a distance of 10, while the recoil impulse increased by only 4%. A small increase in recoil impulse allows the use of new ammunition in old PM pistols.


Cartridges 9X18mm PBM


The gun looks like Walter PP, but it is only a superficial resemblance. The internal structure is significantly different from the German. In the 32 pistol parts, many design elements perform several functions. The PM has a double-action trigger trigger with a convenient and reliable fuse (it blocks the trigger, trigger and bolt), uses a simple scheme of automatic operation with a free gate, the single-row magazine on 8 cartridges is used in the gun. This is one of the most powerful pistols with a similar principle of operation of automation. The accuracy of shooting for a gun of this class is quite normal and is not inferior to other compact samples. On the basis of PM created a silent pistol for special forces PB.

The advantages of the gun include: the highest reliability in operation and high resource, simplicity of design, the presence of a pick-up machine, compactness and the absence of sharp corners, sufficient stopping effect of a bullet on an unprotected target. The disadvantages include: low penetrating ability of a bullet, inconvenient descent (skill case), inconvenient location of the magazine latch, insufficiently high accuracy of shooting in comparison with full-sized army pistols, insufficient capacity of the shop by modern standards.

Despite the moral obsolescence of the design, the PM for many years will be in service with many countries of the CIS and the satellite states of the USSR. The gun was manufactured under license in the GDR, PRC, Bulgaria, Poland and a number of other countries.

To eliminate the shortcomings of the PM in the framework of the "Grach" program, a modernized pistol was created, which received the name PMM.


PMM Pistol


By design, unification with PM is about 70%. The gun has a modification with a magazine for 8 or 12 cartridges (double row with rebuilding in one row). Constructive difference from the PM is the presence of Revelli grooves in the chamber for slowing the opening of the shutter when fired. For firing, high-pulse cartridges 9x18 mm PMM are used with an initial speed of a conical bullet about 420 m / s and a recoil momentum 15% more than the standard. The use of new ammunition in a conventional PM is prohibited due to the danger of destruction of the structure during long-term firing with more powerful ammunition.


Cartridge 9X18mm PMM with a conical bullet weight 5,8 g.


Although one of the shortcomings of the PM was eliminated - insufficient bullet penetration, the modernization was not able to correct all the shortcomings of the old design. The issue of increasing the accuracy of shooting was not resolved, the capacity of the store was still inferior to foreign analogues of similar dimensions and mass, the store spring was working with overvoltage. In addition to all this, the quality of the manufacture of weapons after the collapse of the USSR has plummeted. Formally, the gun was adopted by some services. The task of completely replacing the PM in the army and the police was not solved.

Another gun developed under the Rook program was the Yarygin PY pistol. Adopted by the army in 2003.


Gun Yarygin


The gun uses a widespread scheme of automation with a coupled shutter. The frame of the gun is made of steel, although a version with a polymer frame was created. USM pistol trigger double action, double row magazine holds 18 cartridges. For firing, 9x19 mm 7H21 cartridges are used with a speed of 5,4 g. Bullets around 450 m / s. These cartridges are somewhat more powerful than their Western counterparts and have an increased bullet penetration effect with a bare armor-piercing core.

The advantages of a pistol include: high accuracy of fire, good stopping and penetrating action of a bullet, good balance, large capacity of the store. The disadvantages include: poor workmanship (especially the first batches), low resource when shooting with 7H21 cartridges, insufficient reliability of the automation, angularity of the structure and the presence of sharp corners, a very tight spring of the store with sharp sponges.

For all its merits, the PJ turned out to be raw and could not fully replace the outdated PM. Many employees of power structures preferred the old reliable PM. According to some experts, the level of technology of the Yarygin pistol is the middle of the 70-s and at the moment the pistol is inferior in many respects to foreign analogues. On the basis of PJ, a sports pistol with a polymer frame "Viking" is produced, having a weakened construction and a magazine for 10 cartridges.

The next candidate for an army pistol was Tula GSH-18. The gun was created in the KBP under the command of two outstanding designers of rocket-gun armament, Vasily Gryazev and Arkady Shipunov. Adopted in 2003 g. Produced in limited quantities with 2001 g.


Pistol GSH-18


The gun has an automatic based on a coupled shutter with a barrel rotation, trigger type with two automatic fuses, the capacity of the 18 magazine ammunition. The frame of the gun is made of polymer, the shutter-casing - stamping of 3-mm steel using welding, the barrel has polygonal grooves. The weapon turned out compact and light. For firing, very powerful 9x19 mm PBP cartridges (index 7Н31) with 4,1 bullet weight, 600 speed m / s and muzzle energy around 800 are used. The bullet is able to pierce a sheet of steel 8 mm thick at a distance of 15 m or armor 3 protection.


Cartridges from left to right: regular 9х19 mm, 7Н21, 7Н31


The advantages of a pistol: small size and weight, good application, high accuracy of fire, powerful cartridge with high stopping and stopping effect, large magazine capacity, high safety in circulation. Disadvantages: strong recoil due to the powerful cartridge and the small mass of the weapon itself, the front part of the housing-shutter open for dust and dirt, the store's spring is low, the low quality of workmanship and finishing.

The gun adopted by the prosecutor's office and is a premium weapon. Sport-18 and Sport-1 sport pistols are produced on the basis of the GSH-2, with minor differences from the combat model.

The SPS pistol was developed in Klimovsk by Peter Serdyukov in 1996. It is in service with the FSO and the FSB.


CP-1MP pistol


The weapon was created for firing at the enemy protected by a body armor or the enemy in transport. The gun has an automatic with a coupled shutter with locking, swinging larva (as in the 92 Beretta). Due to this, when fired, the barrel always moves parallel to the shutter-casing, which increases the accuracy of fire. The frame is made of polymer, trigger double action with two automatic fuses, the magazine has a capacity of 18 cartridges, sights are designed for a range of 100 m. For shooting use powerful cartridges 9x21 mm. SP-10 (armor-piercing), SP-11 (low-skull), SP-12 (expansive) and SP-13 (armor-tracer) munitions were created. The cartridge SP-10 has a bullet of mass 6,7 g with an initial speed 410 m / s. The bullet has a bare armor piercing core and is able to pierce 5-mm steel sheet at a distance of 50 m or a standard US body armor.


Armor-piercing cartridges 9x21 mm SP-10


The disadvantages of a pistol include large dimensions and weight, the use of rare ammunition, the inconvenience of an automatic fuse on the handle for people with short fingers.

On the basis of the ATP, a CP-1MP pistol was created with an enlarged fuse button, a Picatinny rail, a mount for the muffler and an improved stopper delay. At the moment, on the basis of the ATP created and tested pistol "boa".

There were attempts to adopt and weapons of foreign manufacture, for example, the Austrian “Glock” or the Russian-Italian “Strizh”. But these pistols did not pass the Russian state tests for reliable operation in harsh conditions. The developers of the Swift pistol declared that it was possible to use Russian 9x19 mm 7H21 and 7H31 Russian armor-piercing cartridges in their pistol.

A prototype of the Kalashnikov concern pistol designed by Lebedev PL-2015 was presented at the Army-14 forum. The gun has an automatic with a coupled shutter, USM shock type, aluminum frame and shop on 15 cartridges. The ergonomics of the pistol is created taking into account the human anatomy, the pistol is very applied and easy to use. When creating it, the developers consulted with IPSC athletes. When shooting used in the world widespread ammunition 9x19 mm. In the future, it is planned to produce a version of the PL-14 with a polymer frame and trunks of various lengths.


The prototype pistol concern "Kalashnikov" PL-14


The most promising, it seems to me, is the development from scratch of an entirely new complex pistol cartridge for a small caliber pistol cartridge. An example of a successful introduction into the power structures of pistols under a powerful small-caliber cartridge is the Belgian FN Five-Seven caliber 5,7 mm and the Chinese QSZ-92 caliber 5,8 mm. The Belgian uses the 5,7x28 mm cartridge with an SS190 armor-piercing bullet. Powder charge accelerates light bullet mass 2 g. To speed 650 m / s. The bullet can pierce a bulletproof vest with a titanium plate with a thickness of 1,6 mm and a package of kevlar fabric in 20 layers. Cartridges with expansive and tracer bullets were created. Automatic pistol uses the principle of semi-free shutter, trigger only double action, the magazine capacity is 20 cartridges. The frame of the gun is made of polymer, and the steel casing-shutter is covered with a polymer shell.

The gun was widely used among Mexican drug cartels for its ability to pierce a standard police bulletproof vest, and was also used by the US secret service.


FN Five-Seven Pistol


Not much is known about the Chinese pistol. It uses 5,8x21 mm cartridges with a 3 bullet mass and an initial speed of 500 m / s. The bullet is able to pierce a bulletproof vest that protects against the standard army 9x19 mm of NATO. There is a version chambered for 9x19 mm. The rest of the gun is unremarkable and inferior to the Belgian competitor in the power of the cartridge and the capacity of the store.


Chinese gun QSZ-92


In the USSR, a PSM pistol for a small caliber cartridge caliber 5,45 mm has already been created. The gun was created for concealed carrying of the leadership of the KGB and the Ministry of Interior. The bullet weighing 2,6 g. Had energy around 130 J, but due to its shape it punched dozens of Kevlar layers.

As you can see, pistols for a powerful small-caliber cartridge have huge advantages over more large-caliber counterparts. The argument of critics of small-caliber weapons is supposedly a small stopping power, but there are expansive bullets. And besides, even an ordinary high-speed bullet creates around itself an extensive pulsating cavity. The main advantages are the large BC, the high flatness of the trajectory due to the high initial velocity of the bullet, low recoil and barrel toss, good armor penetration and high slaughter effect. So what prevents the Russian gunsmiths from creating a worthy analogue, taking, for example, the bullet of a standard low-impact 5,45XNNXX mm bullet?
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  1. PKK
    PKK 21 June 2016 06: 19 New
    15
    I don’t go into these games of gunsmiths, decide for yourself how to make a pistol with 5.45 rounds of ammunition, based on 39 on 30, with a firing range of 100m.
    1. alex-712
      alex-712 21 June 2016 06: 44 New
      +2
      Well, at 30, I think it will be a bit too much, it will not be convenient to hold in your hand, and 18 we’ll say like a beret, quite.
      1. GSH-18
        GSH-18 21 June 2016 13: 16 New
        +5
        Quote: alex-712
        Well, at 30, I think it will be a bit too much, it will not be convenient to hold in your hand, and 18 we’ll say like a beret, quite.

        In general, the standard Beretta 92F magazine has a capacity of 15 rounds.
        18 rounds are placed in a standard GSh-18 magazine. It was designed for special forces, according to which the upper ejection of the sleeve and the fuse on the trigger.
    2. Oberon812
      Oberon812 21 June 2016 08: 43 New
      +3
      I don’t go into these games of gunsmiths, decide for yourself how to make a pistol with 5.45 rounds of ammunition, based on 39 on 30, with a firing range of 100m.

      And also with full automation and the familiar device. Please SPF Krink AK pistol wink Is that a bad holster climbs lol
    3. xetai9977
      xetai9977 21 June 2016 10: 36 New
      +7
      Recognized leaders in the pistol theme - "Beretta", "Glock", "Henkler & Koch" and others.
      1. MaksoMelan
        MaksoMelan 21 June 2016 11: 39 New
        +2
        The reliability didn’t seem to suit us.
        1. PSih2097
          PSih2097 21 June 2016 12: 52 New
          +1
          Quote: MaksoMelan
          The reliability didn’t seem to suit us.

          they didn’t fit the price tag, but by reliability - the manufacturer claims the barrel survivability of 250 shots, ours have no more than 000.
          Quote: xetai9977
          Recognized leaders in the pistol theme - "Beretta", "Glock", "Henkler & Koch" and others.

          Colt (Colt Government / M1911)

          S&W (Smith & Wesson "Military and Police" .40S & W)
        2. psiho117
          psiho117 21 June 2016 20: 44 New
          +6
          There were attempts to adopt foreign-made weapons, for example, the Austrian "Glock" ... But these pistols did not pass the Russian state tests for reliability in harsh conditions.

          Yeah, yeah, don't let them sound. Glock is one of the simplest and most reliable pistols in the world in terms of design, it is simpler than even our pistols, which, as usual, are molded from shit and sticks. And it certainly is not inferior to them in reliability, and every piece of shit like "Yarygin" is many times superior (not to mention the resource).
          They just don’t want to admit that we don’t have a decent gun right now, that’s Glock being poured with mud. Type someone else’s obroshim, maybe ours against this background will seem better.

          PS Although this is strange, we had an excellent barrel - "Berdysh", the design of the legendary Stechkin (in fact, a lightweight and modernized APS for 9x19), it is not praised by the prosecutors even now;
          there is still quite a good ATP, there you can only play pranks with its inconvenient security systems and change the caliber to 9x19, and that’s all, the mechanics themselves are excellent there.
          So no, we always overcome difficulties we have created ourselves ...
          1. MaksoMelan
            MaksoMelan 22 June 2016 10: 21 New
            0
            The ATP was specially designed for field investigators (so as not to waste time removing from the fuse, taking it in hand and ready) and an increased power cartridge. on penetration it is interesting from pistols who is his competitor ?. For your task. It would be possible to look, it seems, there is also an export model, everything can be implemented there that you wrote. In principle, bi could try to make such a gun and with the usual fuse. I would take the ATP from everything described.
          2. George Sviridov
            George Sviridov 14 July 2016 15: 14 New
            0
            we have guns. And about Glock you are not quite right. Yes, under normal conditions, it is very reliable and has a huge resource, but there the manufacturer himself gives a guarantee at a temperature not lower than -45 like (well, it doesn’t happen in Europe even that much), and our mine of defense, taking into account the interest in the Arctic, was prescribed in TU for the army keep the gun up to -55 degrees. You can say, well, do not use it in the Arctic, but defense mines said that they needed a single model for everyone.
            1. philosopher
              philosopher 21 October 2016 17: 58 New
              0
              And absolutely right. By the way, GSH-18 with all its childhood diseases and unpretentious appearance withstands the test of extreme temperatures and dustiness, which foreign samples can not boast of.
              And according to the reviews of real users of Glock, it is not so high-quality as they say at arms exhibitions. Curved casting of the frame - like "hello".
              You just need to bring our samples to mind, lick them, and this is done already during the production process by process engineers, not the designer. So it was with PM, AK, etc.
              As for the barrel resource, the problem is also treated by changing the production technology. The design of the gun as a whole here is tied indirectly.
              Something like that.
              1. Basarev
                Basarev 19 May 2017 08: 53 New
                0
                I think that a revolver with a quick-change drum, like Cobalt, could well replace the gun. Glock is not needed.
  2. gozmos
    gozmos 21 June 2016 06: 47 New
    11
    Makarov is a story, but a very good gun ..
  3. Caramba
    Caramba 21 June 2016 06: 47 New
    +4
    The PL-14 looks great.
    1. ammunition
      ammunition 21 June 2016 10: 12 New
      +4
      Quote: Caramba
      The PL-14 looks great.


      And in my opinion GSH-18 it's just a masterpiece. Dream.
      ----------
      But! sad
      Old and inveterate pistols .. accustomed to oak products, haut GSh-18. Purely only because they themselves are already " Sharpened "on oak pistols.
      1. MaksoMelan
        MaksoMelan 21 June 2016 11: 43 New
        +1
        Opposite, but they say that hand returns dry! Due to lack of weight.
        1. ammunition
          ammunition 21 June 2016 12: 16 New
          +5
          Quote: MaksoMelan
          They say that the return of the hand dries! Due to lack of weight.


          they say ...-)
          -----------
          It depends on the hand. I myself .. could break a deck of cards .. sometime. But! Alfovtsy (as I heard) must have been able to tear off your ear .. or your nose. In half a second.
          So .. Such a hand will not feel any concern from GS-18.
          ---------
          A pistol is too good!
          You can stick it anywhere. Though on the chest .. Even on the sleeve. Though on the stomach, even on the ass.
          This is not a Mauser! And it hits better than a Mauser. Lethality and accuracy .. with "butts", allow aiming (and effective) shooting at 300 meters.,
          -----------
          As an additional barrel - the gun is simply excellent.
          -------------
          PS
          If someone does not like the small (very small) weight of the gun - a flag in hand. Hang at least a pood weight on the gun. Who's stopping you ?????
          PPS In PM you plus .. not a comment. wink For the replica.
          1. psiho117
            psiho117 21 June 2016 21: 01 New
            +1
            Quote: ammunition

            This is not a Mauser! And it hits better than a Mauser. Lethality and accuracy .. with "butts", allow you to aim (and effectively) shoot at 300 meters

            Can't understand why you are comparing it to Mauser? it has neither a butt holster, nor an adjustable sight, with claims for 1000m, nor a cartridge with a good score. coefficient, like that of Mauser - and these are its main characteristic technical features. The GSH-18 has a quite ordinary sight (up to 50m), a regular holster and a regular armor-piercing cartridge - light, powerful and with no ballistics. Plus the pistol itself is too light for such a powerful recoil. So that you very strongly bent, about 300m.
            Maybe you're talking about ATP? there the bullet and pistol are heavier, and the cartridge itself is a bit more powerful - there already were options with an aim of up to 100m.

            As an additional barrel - the gun is simply excellent.

            I won't argue with this. As add. weapon of "last chance" - excellent pistol. But in the army - does not pull.
            1. MaksoMelan
              MaksoMelan 22 June 2016 10: 29 New
              0
              And what are the requirements for the army if not for the weapon of the last chance? Although I would choose ATP! By the way, its authors are preparing for the debut of the "boa constrictor" based on the ATP! Let's see!
          2. gladcu2
            gladcu2 21 June 2016 23: 11 New
            0
            ammunition

            Mauser is not so much a gun as not so much a carbine.
  4. Uncle lee
    Uncle lee 21 June 2016 06: 56 New
    +7
    With all the shortcomings, the PM is the most elegant! hi
    1. Noisy
      Noisy 21 June 2016 07: 42 New
      13
      PM has no real flaws, only gun carrier complexes))))
      1. gladcu2
        gladcu2 21 June 2016 23: 24 New
        +2
        Noisy

        Correctly. Not in the eyebrow, but in the eye.

        Thanks to the author for a good review. But you provided the conclusions along the way to us.

        So we will do it.

        What is the role of the service pistol? To be always at hand and to be reliable. To be light and not noticeable. Not be big but comfortable. Do not require increased care.

        Tell me where is the penetration ability of a service pistol? Who needs it? The policeman? The company commander? Customs Officer?

        Well, if someone needs to break through armor from a pistol, so maybe it’s better to take a machine gun? Or is there no such opportunity for some reason?

        During the war, the state was put TT, because the commander of the rifle and machine gun on the state did not give. Therefore, the cartridge for universal use. But the gun is already rather weak, and reloading is not very convenient.

        Therefore, we conclude. The service gun is primarily a form, external dimensions and reliability. These weapons are not attacks, but defenders or threats.

        About the cartridge speaks for itself. They take a gun to the military. And with PM they will go to a knowingly undefended enemy only.
  5. the47th
    the47th 21 June 2016 07: 12 New
    +5
    So I. Ya. Stechkin already made a gun under 5,45x18. I think that you can increase the power of the cartridge with the same dimensions, make armor-piercing and expansive bullets.
    1. MaksoMelan
      MaksoMelan 22 June 2016 10: 30 New
      0
      Something bulky!
      1. the47th
        the47th 22 June 2016 10: 51 New
        +5
        As Boris Razva used to say: "The severity is good. The severity is reliable. Even if it doesn't shoot, you can always hit it in the head."
    2. Kozliu
      Kozliu 7 July 2016 22: 32 New
      0
      the dart doesn’t have a barrel lock; its ammo circuitry isn’t suitable for cartridges
  6. Aleksandr72
    Aleksandr72 21 June 2016 07: 12 New
    25
    Another "old song about the main thing." There are a lot of such articles about the need to create a new Russian pistol for the army and police, as well as about the absence of any promising modern models of short-barreled weapons in Russia on the Internet. I agree that the PM is morally outdated - it was still adopted in 1951, but I have been using this pistol for almost 20 years and I consider it a reliable and convenient weapon. But this is my subjective opinion - it is possible that I just got used to this pistol. For armchair police officers (and the army too), nothing else is needed - all the same, they usually shoot from a pistol only at the range.
    It seemed strange to me why at one time the Czechoslovak ChZ-75 pistol was not chosen as the main individual weapon for the armed forces of the Warsaw Treaty countries. I happened to shoot from this - it would be a good choice for the army, the only negative is too heavy.
    This opinion of the author aroused interest:
    As you can see, pistols under a powerful small-caliber cartridge have huge advantages over larger-caliber counterparts. The critics' argument of small-caliber weapons is supposedly a small stopping effect, but there are expansive bullets. And besides, even an ordinary high-speed bullet creates an extensive pulsating cavity around itself. The main advantages are large BC, high trajectory flatness due to the high initial velocity of the bullet, low recoil and toss of the barrel, good armor penetration and high lethal effect.

    It is not clear what it is based on. Yes, more and more models of short-barreled weapons are now appearing in the world for non-standard (for now?) Small-caliber cartridges. True, these are mainly submachine guns - weapons of the new (relatively new) concept of PDW (personal self-defense weapons): the most famous of them is the Belgian FN P90 under the same cartridge as the hero of the article, the Fife Seven pistol, West German Heckler und Koch MP7 PDW chambered for 4,6x30, Czech LIBRA PDW chambered for 4,38x30, Swedish SAAB mod. CBJ-MS chambered for 6,5x25. But all these weapons are still weapons exotic. And it is not known what his fighting qualities actually are. Because almost nothing is known about the combat use of the same "Fife-Seven" or P90, which are mainly used only in computer toys.
    Thanks to the author for an interesting article, albeit on a long and fairly exaggerated topic.
    1. BIP PS FSB RF
      BIP PS FSB RF 21 June 2016 08: 49 New
      +1
      The conclusion is of course "gorgeous". I read the article / review with pleasure and was very surprised at this conclusion / transition that small-caliber pistols are better. It looks like - we will adjust any I get on with your goals. The author's goal is to promote small-caliber pistols or to explain that everything you do is Mr.?
      For such a conclusion, the article put a minus.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. psiho117
      psiho117 21 June 2016 21: 41 New
      +3
      Quote: Aleksandr72
      I agree that the PM is morally obsolete - it was accepted into service in 1951, but I used this gun for almost 20 years and I consider it a reliable and convenient weapon. For cabinet police officers (and the army too) nothing else is needed - anyway, they usually shoot with a pistol only at the firing range.

      I absolutely agree with you! Better than Peemki, as an official weapon can only be ... PMM bully After all, there was a great option - "Baikal", with a convenient plastic frame and a 12-charge magazine. No, instead of him they took this poppy.
      It seemed strange to me why at one time the Warsaw Treaty Organization was not chosen for the armed forces of the countries ... ChZ-75.

      "with disgust" Politics sir!
      The USSR generally had an extremely negative attitude to arming any of the VD countries with weapons of its own design. I can’t imagine how many efforts the Czechs and Poles generally needed to take their own pistols. However, the Czechs were always somewhat more privileged: they also made PP, and they made their machine guns, and all sorts of different things.


      Yes, more and more models of short-barreled weapons are now appearing in the world for non-standard (for now?) Small-caliber cartridges. all these weapons are still weapons exotic. And it is not known what his fighting qualities actually are. Because almost nothing is known about the combat use of the same "Fife-Seven" or P90, which are mainly used only in computer toys.

      Known, known! P-90 (and "five-seven") is no longer exotic, they are actually very widespread throughout the world and are officially in service with almost 40 countries of the world (P-90) and more than 20 countries - a pistol. What does it have to do with very serious "offices" - up to the American Secret Service, and they very responsible for the selection of weapons for themselves.
      And how many of them are sold on the civilian market, ooh ...
      On combat use - it happens, and regularly. Specialists go with these weapons to combat exits, bandos and drug cartels no less successfully shoot and wet each other (in Latin America, this caliber very common), sales in civilian markets are enormous. In the United States, even a mass murder has already happened, in 2009 or 10th year, a psychopath of "five-seven" crumbled a lot of people, 10 or 15 people.

      So our ideas about weapons under "malopulki", as about something new and untested, are already outdated for 30 years, half of the world actually uses them.
      And all statements like "well, I don't know how it is in battle ..." or "I doubt that such a small bullet can do anything ..." have long been broken and refuted by the operators of this weapon.
      And by the way, in the internet there is a bunch of video about what stuffing these bullets make from a gelatin block, and even after breaking through a bulletproof vest. The last doubts will be dispelled.
    4. gladcu2
      gladcu2 22 June 2016 13: 04 New
      +3
      Alexander 72

      PM is outdated only by morality. The key is moral. Just someone tired. Take Colt 1911, vilify this bandura and morality will recover very quickly.

      PM and PMM are the best for service weapons, including army ones. Army does not mean that it should penetrate armor.
  7. KBACYPA
    KBACYPA 21 June 2016 07: 20 New
    +6
    As one of my acquaintances said, “It's good to go to the shooting range with a glock, but I always took a PM on the way out. In modern combat, if it came to pistols, it means the Khan's group, without options. And to shoot PMka behind the eyes. . The very thing for the army. " And behind him is Afghan, Chechnya and something else. Either Yugoslavia, or else where it was noted, it did not spread. Here I believe him. So I wonder what NOW is meant by the term "army pistol"? What is expected of him and for what tasks is he generally needed?
    1. MaksoMelan
      MaksoMelan 21 June 2016 08: 16 New
      +1
      Get a submachine gun with a pistol. Or use it while there is no time to recharge the machine, well, in some cramped conditions in buildings. In the book "The Chechen War. Work on Mistakes" there was a desire to arm with pistols. Where? I do not remember.
      1. PSih2097
        PSih2097 21 June 2016 12: 59 New
        +3
        Quote: MaksoMelan
        Get a gun with a gun. Or use it while reloading the machine there is no time well, in some cramped conditions in buildings.

        it was in the first mission (range) CoD: MW
    2. overb
      overb 21 June 2016 08: 26 New
      +1
      Quote: KBACYPA
      And behind him is Afghanistan, Chechnya and something else. Either Yugoslavia, or else where it was noted, it did not spread.

      The sofa behind him, most likely. Once he carries such nonsense.
      1. KBACYPA
        KBACYPA 21 June 2016 10: 14 New
        +8
        Quote: overb
        The sofa behind him, most likely. Once he carries such nonsense.


        Yes Yes. And he bought the form and documents. And he himself sawed the order of the red star in the pantry from the bucket. And the Afghan veterans came to sit on his sofa. And when he from the same PM in 5 seconds hit 8 targets placed at 15-30 meters, these were also glitches. Massive.
      2. Dinko
        Dinko 1 December 2016 13: 00 New
        0
        Not a sofa, he just donkey!
    3. avt
      avt 21 June 2016 09: 58 New
      +2
      Quote: KBACYPA
      ... So I wonder what NOW is meant by the term "army pistol"?

      Each his own.
      Quote: KBACYPA
      What is expected of him and for what tasks is he needed at all?

      Well, for "special", but they are waiting for 100 meters and more cartridges and a larger gun campaign - "Boa constrictor" under 9x21 based on CP-1. But I am tormented by two questions on a very specific pattern during the constant mathra uttered by everyone and everything, namely
      Disadvantages: strong recoil due to the powerful cartridge and the small mass of the weapon itself, the front of the casing-shutter open for dust and dirt, the tight spring of the magazine, and the low quality of workmanship and decoration.
      The first is that the author himself could not hold him in his hands and received after a shot of their general staff in their forehead, as from the notorious "Desert Eagle" with its really "powerful patron"? Well, the second one - the author went with him somewhere in the field, dropped it into the dust somewhere in Afghanistan, and then, well, feeling his position with his feet and lifting him up, he could not shoot from him ?? Or did he just look at Badyuk in the "Men's toys" and draw his own "conclusion? But this is the third question I have asked. laughing
      1. overb
        overb 21 June 2016 16: 59 New
        +2
        Quote: KBACYPA
        he from the same PM in 5 seconds hit 8 targets placed at 15-30 meters

        Dear, if someone somewhere was once, this does not mean that he understands weapons. Even if he is there something and something striking for some seconds.
        Quote: avt
        Each his own.

        Well, of course. There are absolutely clear requirements for army pistols in terms of their performance characteristics. Exactly the same clear requirements requirements also exist for official and special army pistols.
        Quote: avt
        and they are waiting for 100 meters and more rounds

        100 m pistols are not fired. And their ammunition is barely enough. You confuse a gun with a submachine gun. Here is their standard distance of just 100 m.
        1. Dinko
          Dinko 1 December 2016 13: 02 New
          0
          Your truth again!
    4. would
      would 21 June 2016 23: 52 New
      +4
      . In modern combat, if it came to pistols, it means a group of khan, with no options.


      If in Israel they would have thought the same, then the terrorist yeshiva “Merkaz ha-Rav” would have claimed far more lives. The terrorist was killed by two people who were armed with exactly the same pistols: One student and one IDF officer who was nearby.

      For this, the gun itself is also needed: This is a weapon of constant readiness which is always with you. An attack on a checkpoint, an attack on an officer on the street, an attack on a unit, a terrorist attack in the place where the officer is located, etc. as history has shown, more than real. And practice has shown that a gun in such situations can really save a life and extol a person to a completely different level of combat readiness. However, for this, the gun must always be with the officer, and this, alas, is not common with us.
  8. Beaver
    Beaver 21 June 2016 07: 25 New
    +5
    For firing, very powerful cartridges with a bullet weighing 4,1 g, a speed of 600 m / s and a muzzle energy of about 800 J. are used. The bullet is capable of piercing a sheet of steel 8 mm thick at a distance of 15 m or a bulletproof vest of the 3rd protection class.
    good Cool gun! You can even hunt elephants! wassat And what do we read next?
    The gun adopted by the prosecutor
    belay
    Apparently a lot of things I don’t know about the specifics of the work of prosecutors ... request
    Seriously, IMHO there should be two pistols under one cartridge, as at one time the PM for the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the APS for the army (unfortunately the army then refused it in favor of the PM, because the decision was made by people who were not going to fight). fool
    How to make one cartridge give different characteristics in different brands of weapons at the exit of the barrel? Let the designers rack their brains, they learned it. laughing
    1. MaksoMelan
      MaksoMelan 21 June 2016 08: 17 New
      +1
      Caliber bullet? :)
      1. Beaver
        Beaver 21 June 2016 10: 22 New
        0
        Quote: MaksoMelan
        Caliber bullet? :)

        Alternatively, perhaps. Although, for manufacturers and suppliers it is better to have the same cartridges with the same bullets. So only the question of a new powerful army pistol (which is also suitable for "physicists" from various special services) remains relevant. And the opera, investigators, staff workers, senior officials of the traffic police - may well get by with a PM or something similar in size and "licked" forms. laughing
        Here ё-mine, again at least two different cartridges are obtained. request Apparently this path is destined to go. smile
    2. avt
      avt 21 June 2016 16: 07 New
      0
      Quote: Castor
      Apparently a lot of things I don’t know about the specifics of the work of prosecutors ...

      Apparently yes, especially in terms of physical protection services.
    3. psiho117
      psiho117 21 June 2016 22: 00 New
      +4
      Quote: Castor

      The gun adopted by the prosecutor
      belay
      Apparently a lot of things I don’t know about the specifics of the work of prosecutors ...


      This refers to the special forces of the Ministry of Justice. They provide a lot of things there:
      - the protection and defense of penal institutions
      - escort of persons in custody
      - participation in the protection and defense of administrative buildings of federal executive authorities and the administration, and international organizations
      - conducting operational-search activities to identify and detain militants and their accomplices.
      They took an active part in the hostilities in Chechnya (the Special Forces of the Ministry of Justice was considered one of the most combat-ready units), provided protection for officials and members of international delegations when visiting Chechnya, etc.
      Fighting guys with rich experience.
      1. Beaver
        Beaver 22 June 2016 21: 28 New
        0
        Quote: psiho117
        I mean

        Thank you, I really didn’t know. smile hi
    4. The comment was deleted.
  9. AlNikolaich
    AlNikolaich 21 June 2016 07: 35 New
    +6
    Indeed, we have a problem with pistols ... And, I believe, the problem is due to a slurred technical task! Competitions are held for reasons of accepting a single model for all. And maybe it's wrong! All pistol consumers have different requirements! And to get a single universal model will not work. As a result, we have an excellent specialized SPS pistol, and ПЯ! Starina PM is liked by everyone for its convenience, weight and dimensions. It is universal and reliable. Although it’s out of date ... You need a similar model, but more modern, like a mass gun, you need a special police model, and you need a powerful ATP (Boa constrictor)! And all these Gsh with horseradish understand what a descent, miserable PY, sports submarines - from the evil one!
    1. MaksoMelan
      MaksoMelan 21 June 2016 08: 27 New
      -1
      I think this topic would be solved by permission to sell a short barrel in the country. These designers would get out of their skin coming up with everything new and unusual. And when the customer is essentially one - the state, well, let two army and cops. There is no way to experiment. Gdavnaya gun militants invented for hunting - desert needles. Question! Is it worth it to do. And I would think about the modernization of TT, like in the eastern Europe it was successfully modernized. You can make a dent so that the store doesn’t fall out of the hardened stale, I think it’s just that it wasn’t before before (you can acidify with the electromagnetic industry there is such a hardening.
    2. overb
      overb 21 June 2016 08: 29 New
      +2
      Quote: AlNikolaich
      Starina PM is liked by everyone for its convenience, weight and dimensions. It is universal and reliable. Although it is outdated ...

      He is not out of date; he does not understand how he got into the army. From the incompetence of customers, apparently. Typical police pistol with appropriate performance characteristics.
      But for the police, he is not bad now. At the same time, it is not suitable for riot police.
    3. MaksoMelan
      MaksoMelan 21 June 2016 08: 30 New
      0
      It's too early to talk about submarines! I like the look. Let's see what the rest will say. All the same, sports experience must also be taken into account, relying on the military.
  10. Noisy
    Noisy 21 June 2016 07: 41 New
    +1
    Thank God, while the military themselves decide what they need for the combat work of everyday life. And “analysts” write articles like “So what prevents Russian gunsmiths from creating a worthy analogue”. If not created, then it is not needed.
    1. Beaver
      Beaver 21 June 2016 10: 26 New
      +2
      Quote: Noisy
      the military themselves decide

      The military, when it starts to smell like fried, pick up a submachine gun. But the "military" ones, yes, they decide.
  11. 7race
    7race 21 June 2016 08: 52 New
    +1
    So what prevents Russian gunsmiths from creating a worthy analogue, taking, for example, a 5,45x39 mm bullet of a regular low-pulse munition as the basis?

    The tapestry Cz52 emnip was chambered for 5,56x25. Sawed and compressed TTshny cartridge campaign. Well, as it was - just 3 pistols were included in the pistol kit - under TT, 9x19mm and this one - 5,56. It seems to be a good option, level 5,7x28. But still a small series, now you can’t shoot, except to hang a cartridge found on a chain as a rarity by a miracle.
    But small bullets have another problem - a weak sabsonik. As the bullet does not weigh down, the small caliber and the need for subsonic flight limit its energy to 150-180 J. And try someone with a guarantee to fill up with these joules so that you do not have time to squeak (well, except perhaps from the bushes to the head).
    This is not the 45th caliber, which gives out its 500-600 Joules that with a glushak, that without (because the default is subsonic).
    1. berezin1987
      21 June 2016 22: 57 New
      +1
      Why do small caliber pistols have a subsonic cartridge? Army special forces have special weapons for this. The Americans have MK 23, and in Russia there is an MSS.
    2. berezin1987
      21 June 2016 22: 57 New
      0
      Why do small caliber pistols have a subsonic cartridge? Army special forces have special weapons for this. The Americans have MK 23, and in Russia there is an MSS.
  12. vomag
    vomag 21 June 2016 09: 01 New
    -5
    Once again I am tormented by doubts at Shpak, the tape recorder at the ambassador ... what am I talking about? Yes, everything about the same Americans and the company have been fighting for about 10 years (they have been terrorizing the whole world) and what we see in service with them are taking the colts of the gligi of the ridge, hecklers, etc. etc. ... at the first opportunity they seize Kalash and fight at least one of them who are happy with themselves Glock or Colt changed them for PM or Stechkin? Calm down gentlemen, comrades, have not changed and will not change there are no fools here, and think about how we have a glock and a haircut, they can’t pass them and the whole world has been at war for the rest of them for 10 years and maybe (I'm talking about glock) but they put Yarygin on the arsenal yeah he better and locks and picks and swifts together ... Wake up a PM a Stechkin pistols 80godov them with weapons had to be removed at the beginning of nostalgia 90h..Daaaa serious thing ...
  13. cth; fyn
    cth; fyn 21 June 2016 09: 14 New
    +6
    Article ordered by the Kalashnikov concern? All pistols have pluses and minuses, and pl have only pluses, a miracle is straightforward, even a glock was given ... Mdya ....
  14. alex-cn
    alex-cn 21 June 2016 09: 18 New
    +3
    One of the tasks of a pistol as a melee weapon is to insure itself (the shooter) against a return shot. An "iron" of 38 or 45 calibers will knock the enemy down with any hit, which a small-caliber bullet will not do ... the enemy may die later, but there will still be enough "in itself" to shoot back. An old MVD officer told me that they always went on missions in western Ukraine with Walters, although they all had TTs. reasons - above.
    1. Kotyara Fat
      Kotyara Fat 5 July 2016 20: 42 New
      0
      That is why 45 gauge hydroshocks are especially good! The enemy in bulletproof vest one hell will be disoriented and will give the opportunity to shoot again! And when hit on the extremities, pain shock and subsequent disability are more than likely.
  15. Trigger-Happy
    Trigger-Happy 21 June 2016 09: 28 New
    +1
    For some reason, the article ignored the OTs-27 "Berdysh", I heard only good reviews about it, in contrast to the PY. And as always, one constant problem after the collapse of the USSR is the quality of workmanship !!!!
  16. unknown
    unknown 21 June 2016 10: 07 New
    0
    Quote: overb
    Quote: AlNikolaich
    Starina PM is liked by everyone for its convenience, weight and dimensions. It is universal and reliable. Although it is outdated ...

    He is not out of date; he does not understand how he got into the army. From the incompetence of customers, apparently. Typical police pistol with appropriate performance characteristics.
    But for the police, he is not bad now. At the same time, it is not suitable for riot police.


    It is unlikely that the customers were incompetent, the experience of the Second World War has not yet been forgotten.
    But, there are questions.
    If the pistol was needed as a weapon of the "last frontier", then why was the new cartridge 9 * 18 needed? In this scheme, with a free shutter, it is the maximum permissible power (there was, however, a Browning of 1903 with a cartridge 9 * 20, but with a power less than that of 9 * 19). What for ? We create an extremely simple and compact pistol of 9mm caliber, but still more powerful than its counterparts? What for ? It was possible to stop at the 9 * 17 cartridge (Browning short). Less recoil, higher accuracy, less ricochets. The cartridge is common, the ability to export the pistol is higher.
    1. alex-cn
      alex-cn 21 June 2016 10: 27 New
      +1
      So he is such an IL-71 is called.
    2. overb
      overb 22 June 2016 10: 05 New
      0
      Quote: ignoto
      It is unlikely that the customers were incompetent, the experience of the Second World War has not yet been forgotten.

      Not every horse gets food for the future. Therefore, experience is such a thing that competent people need. And the Soviet "weapon strategists of the Stalinist call" experience like a cow's saddle. They were freaking out before the war, but there they were held back by a lack of funds. And after the war, they deployed in full force.
      Cartridges 7,62x39 mm and 9x18 mm PM, and "army" weapons on them, a vivid confirmation of this. The whole world was surprised. There was no such "beauty" anywhere in the world, there have been plenty of talks on this topic. In the 70s, the "Stalinist old-mans" went to retirement, and therefore in the USSR it was added that they were doing something wrong. As a result, the 7,62x39 mm cartridge from the army was asked for with a knee.
      And with the cartridge 9x18 mm PM delayed. The fact is that he was not so critically bad as the 7,62x39 mm cartridge. Normal service (police) cartridge and normal police pistol (PM). They decided that an officer in the army would do without an army pistol, a kind of army official, + a shortened Kalash in his mouth.
      Army pistols for the army are starting to appear only now. The USSR, across the whole world, did not produce army pistols and the army did not receive them.
      Quote: rait
      If Israel would have thought the same

      You are trying to explain the inexplicable. People in the USSR, incl. the military, have never seen a real army pistol in the face. Therefore, they make statements like "PM is good for the army." "TT was wonderful for the army." Etc. etc.
      Return to this forum in about 20 years. The generation will change, there will be noticeably more people who have already used real army pistols. Then talk.
      1. uwzek
        uwzek 24 June 2016 00: 21 New
        0
        Quote: overb
        They were weird before the war, but there they were constrained by a lack of funds. And after the war they unfolded in full force.

        After the war, it was also restrained by the lack of funds and the desire to use the equipment of Walther’s factories exported from Germany (not to lose the goodness).
        To rearm the army and the police, it was necessary to produce millions of barrels and billions of rounds of ammunition, which was successfully completed. And now there is no money for such feats and there will not be many years. Despite all the visible flaws. The only way out is to sell PMs in the civilian arms market, and spend the proceeds on the production of new pistols and their ammunition. In the meantime, it is unclear in the warehouses how many (but certainly a lot) units of brand new PMs with an ammunition supply sufficient for warfare, we will not accept any new pistols for service ...
  17. The comment was deleted.
  18. brn521
    brn521 21 June 2016 11: 32 New
    0
    The author in the article could not clearly formulate and highlight the idea. As far as I understand, he was interested in the topic of a small-caliber cartridge, intermediate in power between pistol and automatic. In this case, we are talking about the PP-cartridge complex. Weapons from the PDW series, a more convenient alternative to our AKSU. Small caliber and high initial speed contribute to a flat trajectory and increase effective range. Due to the speed also increases armor penetration. The smaller mass and dimensions of the ammunition allow you to create a capacious store. The weak stopping effect of such cartridges is compensated by the ability to fire bursts. At the same time, it becomes possible to reduce the size and weight of the weapon itself, balance it for firing with one hand. The gun is added to the complex as a compromise, so as not to expand the over-range of used cartridges. So the question is the following. Does our army require weapons from the PDW series, or is the AKSU completely self-sufficient? If there is a PDW, then a gun will automatically be required for this cartridge.
    1. berezin1987
      21 June 2016 17: 16 New
      +1
      I don't see the point in a PDW submachine gun. What is bad AKS-74? It weighs about 3-x kg, uses a standard 5,45 submachine gun cartridge. FN P-90 also weighs around three rubles, in front of Ksenia has one plus-magazine capacity in 50 cartridges. The efficiency of the Belgian 5,7x28 mm is lower than that of our 5,45x39 mm. Although the PDW is better than a weapon under standard 9-mm cartridges.
      1. Droid
        Droid 22 June 2016 14: 18 New
        0
        Quote: berezin1987
        Why is the AKS-74U bad?

        Accuracy of automatic fire.
        Quote: berezin1987
        The efficiency of the Belgian 5,7x28 mm is lower than that of our 5,45x39 mm.

        The effectiveness of the P90 is higher than that of the AKS74U in the typical application conditions for which they were made.
        1. berezin1987
          22 June 2016 18: 46 New
          0
          Automatic fire is usually conducted from small distances. The normal shooting mode for the machine is shooting in short bursts. And the 5,45 cartridge is much more powerful than the 5,7. Bullet speed 735 m / s and 715 m / s, weight 3,69. and 2,02g. respectively. P90 is certainly more ergonomic, has a shorter length due to the applied circuit and a transparent manazine on 50 cartridges
          1. Droid
            Droid 22 June 2016 19: 16 New
            0
            Quote: berezin1987
            Automatic fire is usually conducted from small distances. The normal shooting mode for the machine is shooting in short bursts.

            This is automatic fire - two or more shots for a single press of the trigger.

            Quote: berezin1987
            And the 5,45 cartridge is much more powerful than 5,7.

            A 7,62-mm rifle is much more powerful than a 5,45-mm assault rifle, however, the infantryman’s main individual weapon is an assault rifle, not a rifle. Not only power matters.
            Quote: berezin1987
            P90 is certainly more ergonomic, has a shorter length due to the applied circuit and a transparent manazine of 50 rounds

            Most importantly, it is more effective than AKS74U for self-defense of non-shooters. Suffice it to say that the recoil energy of the P90 is 5 times less than that of the AKS74U and the accuracy of automatic fire is much better, the probability of hitting the target, especially from unstable positions, is higher. Where there is a mechanic driver, a signalman, a carrier, etc. hits from AKS74U 2 times out of 10, then from P90 it will hit 4-5 times out of 10.
            1. Cro-Magnon
              Cro-Magnon 23 June 2016 12: 06 New
              0
              CS-1.6 fan? I understand ... I also liked this fluff ... and the question is: if in you only 2 times instead of 4-5, do you care anyway ??!
              1. Droid
                Droid 23 June 2016 19: 59 New
                0
                Quote: Cro-Magnon
                and the question is: if in you only 2 times instead of 4-5 you will not care anyway ??!

                Do not get. Because we are not talking about the fact that 2 or 5 bullets fall from the queue, but about the fact that out of 10 fired targets from AKS74U, 2 will be hit, but from P90 4-5.
  19. Nova
    Nova 21 June 2016 11: 51 New
    +1
    I really hope for the PL14, I sincerely want this convenient and ergonomic machine to be reliable and join our army.
  20. Captain45
    Captain45 21 June 2016 12: 23 New
    +9
    The article is titled "Promising pistol for armies и the police "It seems to me that the title itself contains a big contradiction, since there cannot be a single pistol for the army and the police due to the different tasks assigned to these structures. The police work in the city, which initially presupposes the presence of strangers at the place where the pistol is used. That is, the ability to hit uninvolved people and the army where, every enemy standing in front of you on the battlefield and the task of destroying him. Accordingly, the ammunition for these tasks is completely different, about special forces the same thing - the Ministry of Internal Affairs is mainly to detain or destroy, the main task of the army is to destroy From here it follows that the weapon should be different according to the tasks. And the article proposes to find something universal for all occasions. As I remember in the manual on shooting it says that “a pistol is a personal weapon of defense and attack at short distances ". So it is necessary to determine what this short distance is for the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the army, hence the requirement for the aiming range, cartridge power, eg about ballistics, everything that follows follows from this. During 20 years of work in the Ministry of Internal Affairs, I had a chance to shoot from many things: revolver, TT, Luger (parabellum), Walter PPK, even a Mauser fell into my hands. , "a pistol is an extension of the hand," then from a normal barrel that was not shot into the trash and hands grow from the right place you will always get. The question is "to be able to do this, you have to study for 20 years." Therefore, the question is rather not in the pistol in who it is in But with this we are not very good. Specialists of course train, shoot as they should, but in the Ministry of Internal Affairs, taking into account the massive carrying of weapons and situations of its use, the situation is not very good. Often weapons are not used in situations requiring its use simply because that they are not sure that they will get where they need to. And God forbid, you will hook someone from the civilian prison and no one will intercede, so they are simply afraid to apply. PM of course the car is old, but I like it, like first love, after all I wore it for 20 years. The popularity of "Glock", "Beretta" and other brands arose thanks to the videos of the 80-90s. There, all the "bad" and "good" guys solved all problems with the help of such guns, unlike our Aniskin, who never PM from In films about civilian revolvers and Mauser, about WWII TT and parabellums from the Germans, and then suddenly they saw pistols. Wow, cool !! Here's a class, not like ours! I think if there were more propaganda of our domestic short-handed, its capabilities, then Western models would not be so exalted. soldier
    1. psiho117
      psiho117 21 June 2016 22: 13 New
      +2
      Quote: Captain45
      The article is titled "Promising pistol for armies и the police “It seems to me that the title itself contains a big contradiction, since there cannot be a single pistol for the army and the police due to the different tasks assigned to these structures.


      Absolutely right! Different tasks, different structures, even legislation - and that is different! How to create a single gun. when one needs to hit the target in a military bulletproof vest, and the other is guaranteed to stop the stoned addict.
      One forbids everything except shell bullets, others use everything from expansive to minced meat like RIP



      The warriors insist on the use of heavy all-metal pistols, and the police often need a small plastic pistol for everyday wear.

      Absolutely contradictory conditions, by no means will it come out to take one model into service. And then there are the athletes, with PL 14 connected ...
      1. psiho117
        psiho117 21 June 2016 22: 22 New
        0
        What the hell is going on with the site, half of the pictures are not visible belay
  21. Woland
    Woland 21 June 2016 12: 29 New
    -1
    I read all the arguments about pistols and once again I was convinced of the old truth, who like pop, someone popady, and someone pig cartilage.
  22. foxic
    foxic 21 June 2016 12: 52 New
    +9
    It doesn’t happen like that! It just doesn’t happen, you can’t shoot from the same pistol in the city, so that it doesn’t fly into the citizens and in an army fight at a decent distance, break through a bulletproof vest ... The designer can be a genius, but not God.

    A police pistol separately, an army separately, like flies and cutlets .... otherwise, you can turn another 50 years from a bag into the designer guns ...

    A small-sized pistol (barrel length 94 mm) and a reduced cartridge power cannot compete on equal terms with a full-sized pistol (120 mm) ..... again flies and cutlets .....
    1. berezin1987
      21 June 2016 17: 42 New
      +3
      I think that the police need a more compact weapon than the army. The ideal option is a gun with a magazine of 15 cartridges, caliber 9 mm PAIR, a polymer frame, a mass with an equipped magazine - up to 900. Cartridges with expansive bullets to increase AP while reducing the likelihood of hitting unauthorized persons. Criminals are not so often dressed in body armor.

      For the army, the ideal option is a pistol under a powerful small-caliber cartridge with high penetrating action, a polymer frame, magazine capacity - 15-20 cartridges, a mass of weapons with a magazine - up to 850 ammunition with an armor-piercing bullet. Soldiers from developed countries usually wear good body armor. For their guaranteed destruction into the hull, ammunition with a high specific energy of the bullet is needed (the ratio of muzzle energy to the cross-sectional area of ​​the bullet). For the PM bullet, this indicator is approximately 4,8 J / mm2, for the TT bullet - 11,1 J / mm2, 9х19 mm Pair - 8,9 J / mm2, for the bullet of the 5,7 mm cartridge - 16,7 J / mm2 (like the cartridge 5,45NXNXNXNNXN 39 m)
      1. gladcu2
        gladcu2 26 June 2016 17: 10 New
        0
        berezin

        If you want to equip every soldier with a full gun in addition to the assault rifle, then a good cartridge is needed under the gun. And so, so that an ordinary conscript from a pistol from five meters into the growth figure could get confidently.

        But so far the task is not worth it, because apparently there is no such need. Since the role of a soldier in modern combat is the maintenance of large weapons. And full-time small arms for soldiers are enough in connection with the task.

        The modern service weapon in the concept has first of all this convenience of everyday carrying. The second is fighting qualities. Which, however, the adopted weapons are quite sufficient.
  23. saygon66
    saygon66 21 June 2016 13: 04 New
    +1
    - PM not only looks like Walter ... Remington 51 - a machine under the same cartridge 9X17 ...
  24. Backfire
    Backfire 21 June 2016 17: 34 New
    +2
    The army and the police need completely different pistols, in my opinion they have different requests for a pistol.
  25. berezin1987
    21 June 2016 17: 59 New
    +2
    I wrote an article based on open data. In the dash I tested the following models of pistols: PM, TT, Taurus PT-92 (copy of Beretta 92), sports glock 19, sports CZ-75, Colt M1911, Sig Sauer P226, Walther P-38. In the hands managed to hold the APS and PSM. Of the pistols, I liked ChZ and Zig Sauer the most. There is no Colt at all (the taut auto-fuse is too heavy itself), at Glock I don’t like the heavy descent and the fuse on the trigger. I would never have taken a weapon with external automatic fuses. My dream is to shoot from silent PSS and the Belgian 5-7.
  26. Old26
    Old26 21 June 2016 19: 32 New
    +2
    Quote: MaksoMelan
    I think it’s possible for the army to do this and test it on the basis of pl-14. The army can at least give out such pistols right now. As an alternative to Makarov. Or try to transfer the old Makarov to a small caliber? Replace the barrel or make a sleeve with a reduced caliber. Replace the magazine and cartridges should fit more than the old pm? Who will test? :)

    Why convert to a small caliber? If you really need a 5,45 caliber pistol, Stechkin at one time (in the early 90s) created his OTs-23 "Dart". Caliber 5,45, 24-round magazine
    1. Rosty
      Rosty 22 June 2016 10: 38 New
      0
      The gun is a melee weapon. The main criterion is the high stopping effect of the bullet. It’s not for nothing that Grandpa Colt 1911 is still armed with many units in the world - an 11,43 caliber and a heavy subsonic bullet that allows you to use a silencer on almost any type of weapon for this munition without dancing with a tambourine.
      1. overb
        overb 23 June 2016 18: 21 New
        +1
        Quote: MaksoMelan
        ATP was specially designed for field investigators.

        Yeah. Land reclamation workers. SPS has a record recoil momentum. To create a balanced pistol design for such an impulse is a fine art. Nothing is known about the presence of such specialists in the USSR; it is enough to look at the "ingenious models of weapons" in the USSR. Therefore, the accuracy of fire from the ATP is mediocre.
        Quote: MaksoMelan
        And what are the requirements for the army if not for weapons of last chance?

        What chance? Where did you read this nonsense? Normal melee weapons (up to 50 meters).
        No, after all, it seems impossible to explain in Runet what an "army pistol" is. He never existed in the USSR, so no one knows. So they make up stories about "last chances". And for close combat, folding howitzers are carried in their pockets. To be sure.
        Quote: Rosty
        The main criterion is the high stopping effect of the bullet

        The main criterion for the suitability of any army weapon is the 100% lethal effect of a bullet with a good hit at a given distance. The army pistol is 50 m long. And then the authors' fantasies already go on how to achieve this.
        As for the stopping action of a bullet, this is not the main criterion. This is one of many others. And Colt does not need to be referenced. It was made in such mossy times when no one had heard anything about wound ballistics.
        Even before the 2MV, the caliber 9,0 (in the USSR it was 8,8) mm was recognized as optimal for army pistols. Now, options are possible.
        By the way, I do not agree with the pre-war choice of the optimal caliber. 10 mm would be better.
        Quote: berezin1987
        The problem of large-caliber bullets of small mass - low BC

        Large-caliber bullets have no such problem. A BK shells, and even higher than bullets. BC, he is more dependent on other factors.
        Quote: Beckfire
        The army and the police need completely different pistols, in my opinion they have different requests for a pistol.

        This is an absolutely obvious truth. Moreover, riot police most likely need army weapons.
        Quote: berezin1987
        I think that the police need a more compact weapon than the army. Perfect option

        The ideal option is PM. Especially for the price. But for the army (and riot police) it is necessary to make army pistols. They are now trying to make them, but it is not clear what will happen. And will it work at all. The Soviet design school is too weak. That is why I would leave a policeman PM as is.
        Quote: berezin1987
        Automatic fire is usually conducted from small distances.

        Hm. And what, 450 m (normal combat distance for the main individual army automatic weapons), is this a "short distance"?
        Quote: Now we are free
        In the USA, for example, for police functions, ammunition is very good 11 * 43 (45 cal)

        Disgusting. And he has nothing to do with police weapons. Use such colts in the police, this is livelihood.
        1. Dinko
          Dinko 1 December 2016 12: 27 New
          0
          Nevertheless, in some states of America, police departments still use the Colt M 1911 caliber 45ACP
    2. MaksoMelan
      MaksoMelan 22 June 2016 10: 55 New
      0
      So that you can remake a bunch of pasta in the army to an acceptable armor-piercing. (so that at least something breaks through). For example, in conditions of war, I think such a method of modernizing the good old would not hurt. Cheap and cheerful. And until they come up with the rules of writing. Or try a sub-caliber bullet. At least work out the technology. A lot of these pistols! But darts, once a day, that's all! Production to establish! To increase inventory in a store, the easiest way is to lengthen the store. You can arrange the lower part as part of the gun handle.
      1. berezin1987
        22 June 2016 18: 57 New
        0
        So already made a cartridge for PM with an armor-piercing bullet called 9xNUMXmm PBM. The problem of large-caliber bullets of small mass is low BK, which leads to rapid braking of a light bullet in the air. Firing range and accuracy suffer greatly. The French also created an 18x9 mm cartridge with a very light THV bullet, capable of penetrating most bulletproof vests at a very short distance. From a distance of 19 m, the bullet no longer pierced the car door due to the rapid loss of energy in the air. Such a cartridge is suitable only for special forces in indoor operations, even the police may need to shoot at a longer distance.
        1. MaksoMelan
          MaksoMelan 24 June 2016 17: 30 New
          0
          If I’m not mistaken, this cartridge is made specifically for PMM. Even the problem was with ordinary macaroni. At first they started to issue new pmm. Everyone shot at the shooting range with both old and new cartridges. Then they began to take the mmm since it was inconvenient to walk with it, and it was too heavy and the handle was wider and the old Makarovs were returned. But the more powerful cartridges remained. And they continued to periodically shoot them breaking old PM into the trash.
          1. berezin1987
            28 June 2016 09: 01 New
            0
            It is necessary to distinguish between cartridges 9x18 mm PMM and 9x18 mm PBM. The latter has a recoil momentum of only 4% greater than the usual 9x18 mm. Problems arise when using the old PM pistol with the cartridge for the PMM pistol
  27. Rosty
    Rosty 22 June 2016 10: 35 New
    +1
    Quote: GSH-18
    The Beretta 92F magazine has a capacity of 15 rounds.
    18 rounds are placed in a standard GSh-18 magazine. It was designed for special forces, according to which the upper ejection of the sleeve and the fuse on the trigger.


    Beretta PX4 - 17 rounds. GSH-18 is a good tool, by design, but the workmanship ...
  28. trofim27
    trofim27 22 June 2016 17: 26 New
    +3
    The most common drawback of modern Russian pistols is "poor workmanship and finish."
  29. Konstantin Yu
    Konstantin Yu 23 June 2016 16: 19 New
    0
    soldier[/ quote ->
    Quote: K! I think if in films there was more propaganda of our domestic short-haul, its capabilities, then the Western models would not be so extolled. soldier[/ quote


    Less leaking-jumping. About the propaganda of ours: find out what trunk resource is ours and ... though Berett, not to mention Glock ..
    The TT has a barrel life of 200 shots, the Beretta-5000, the Glock-30 have only a guarantee and up to 000. I am silent about the design and ergonomics ...
  30. Rosty
    Rosty 24 June 2016 09: 55 New
    0
    Quote: overb
    it is prudent. And he has nothing to do with police weapons. Use such colts in the police, this is killing


    .45 excellent "stopper", with a mortar trajectory (lower probability of over-obstacle defeat of third parties), with a low rebound factor. The body does not sew, the impulse is given completely. There is no need to talk about calibers in mm, the diameter of the bullet is not the most important thing in the cartridge. (Let me remind you that 22lr. aka "small", has the same bullet diameter as the automatic cartridge 5,45 * 39. In its properties, the magpie is similar to the PM 9x18, with a difference in bullet energy twice.
    1. overb
      overb 24 June 2016 19: 59 New
      0
      Quote: Rosty
      .45 excellent "stopper"

      .45 a great destroyer. This has nothing to do with the stopper.
      I want to remind you that the destruction of suspects (and, as a rule, it does not deal with criminals, this is the function of the FSIN) is not the task of the police.
      Quote: Rosty
      with mortar path

      Well, send tales.
      Quote: Rosty
      The body does not sew

      What darn? Sutures?
      Quote: Rosty
      gives an impulse completely.

      Depends on the nature of the hit.
      Quote: Rosty
      the diameter of the bullet is not the most important thing in the cartridge.

      The most important thing.
      Quote: Rosty
      Let me remind you that 22lr. he is "small", has the same bullet diameter as the automatic cartridge 5,45 * 39.

      Learn the type of bullets. You are comparing bullets of different types. Which is generally funny.
      Quote: Rosty
      In its properties, the magpie is similar to PM 9x18, with a difference in bullet energy in half.

      Well, that is funny too. To compare colt in caliber 0.45 with PM, this is the first time I meet this. That’s where the emphasis is on stopping action (the most for the police), it’s PM. But he is not suitable for the army. Just like Colt 0.45 for the police. Those. these are antipodes.
  31. major124
    major124 25 June 2016 11: 39 New
    0
    and as a result, we still go with Makarov ...
  32. Kozliu
    Kozliu 7 July 2016 22: 33 New
    +1
    how an army pistol FN 5-7 would fit perfectly
    1. Dinko
      Dinko 1 December 2016 12: 53 New
      0
      FN 5 7 for the past 15 years can not come anywhere!
  33. Dinko
    Dinko 1 December 2016 12: 21 New
    0
    Yes, there was no such name as the TT 33. The author is not out of place to understand and figure out how the Tokarev pistol was called correctly. The TT name is popular if the author is not aware, and the correct name of the pistol is the 7.62 mm Tokarev system pistol of the sample 30 or 33 years old. They also write the self-loading pistol of the sample 30 or 33 years old.
  34. Dinko
    Dinko 1 December 2016 12: 48 New
    0
    And about the expansive bullets in small-caliber pistols. In the US markets there is simply a sea of ​​such ammunition, but they do not go into the army as they are not able to penetrate even the weakest modern body armor. But they are bought for the police and for civilian self-defense they are especially suitable with bullets Black Tallon if Winchester’s memory doesn’t fail me. Regarding the small caliber, it has long been established that for pistols and revolvers 9mm caliber cartridges at least have a sufficient stopping effect. Heckler und Koch pistols called SOCOM or Mk 23 so they have a caliber of 45 ACP + P + in general. This is a 45-caliber cartridge of increased power. In NATO countries they want to abandon the 9X19 Luger cartridge in favor of the 9X21 IWI cartridge as more powerful in the fight against bulletproof vests in addition to to this he will most likely also be armor-piercing! So the author is wrong in his conclusions!
  35. Rocj
    Rocj 10 October 2018 15: 01 New
    0
    I'm wondering why the rank and file and sergeant are not supposed to have a gun? an assault rifle, this is the main weapon in battle, but why can’t you also have a gun?