Military Review

How the USAF defeated the Luftwaffe

816
How the USAF defeated the Luftwaffe



In the midst of the war, the US Air Force completely abandoned disguise. Instead of the traditional light colors (sky colors) on the lower surface of the wing and the green color on top (to merge with the ground), only the glare of aluminum remained. Only the markings and the dark stripe in front of the cockpit are preserved from the coloration, in order to protect the pilot's eyes from glare on the polished metal.

This measure allowed not only to reduce the cost and speed up the production cycle, but also to improve the aerodynamics of the aircraft: smooth metal lining created less resistance than enamel.

But the main thing was the essence of the decision. Waiver of disguise as one of the most important principles of warfare testified to the absolute contempt for the enemy.

The once formidable “Luftwaffle” lost all regalia and with a bang lost the battle for air. The reason was the banal lack of minds and a culture of production. The Germans were unable to establish a serial supply of turbocharged engines and create a reliable aviation motor power over 2000 hp Without all this, the Luftwaffe came to a quick and inevitable end.

The bet on the missiles did not materialize. In fact, the German rocket engineers were ahead of everyone just because no one seriously competed with them. Experiments with rockets have been conducted since the beginning of the century, but did not find military use until the appearance of accurate targeting systems (the second half of the 20th century). Therefore, all these “Fau” had no combat value and were suitable for terrorizing the population of large cities. As well as jet fighters, whose engines, created by 40-s technology, had a lifespan of only 20 hours.

Based on the technological level of those years, the most logical solution was the improvement of piston engines and structures of existing aircraft. Turbocharging, cockpit ergonomics, reliable armament, sights, communications and battle controls.

When meeting with the "Mustangs" and "Thunderbolts" it turned out that the Germans have nothing.

“Mustang” - a plane from the future

The pilots flying the North Amerikan P-51 modifications “D” had such things in the cockpit that are associated with a much later era:

- anti-overload suit “Berger”;

- Tail radar warning AN / APS-13. The system caught the enemy at a distance of 800 yards (~ 700 meters). When an enemy fighter appeared from behind, an alarm system in the cockpit was activated. “Make a barrel, immediately! Get out! Leave! ”;

- analog computer sight K-14.

In the heat of the air battle, the pilot tried to keep the enemy in sight. At this point, the K-14 device, which measured the acceleration and angular velocity of the roll, determined the advance to the selected target. At the right time the computer gave the command to open fire. If the pilot pressed the trigger, the tracks of the fired bullets with diabolical accuracy intersected with the target.

The invaluable combat experience that our Pokryshkins mined in hot fights, risking their lives and paying with blood, got to every American cadet along with a diploma of completion of flight school. They shouldn't have fought 10 once to figure out how to aim correctly and when to open fire, the automatics did everything for them. Given that, without this experience, the chance of survival was small. The dead are eternal memory, the survivors are the glory of the air aces.

Aces could see the enemy without the control system of the rear hemisphere, as well as shoot without analog computers. But it is impossible to overstate the importance of such tools for beginners or not too lucky pilots, "extras." Which was given the chance to shoot down their first and only aircraft, or at least hold out until the end of the battle.

All this equipment was mounted not on 5-10 experienced boards, but on thousands and thousands of serial hawks!

Coupled with a multichannel radio station, a radio navigation system and an IFF respondent (“friend or foe”), to competently coordinate their actions and facilitate the work of ground-based radar operators.


Arrangement of avionics on fighter "Mustang"


Drop-shaped lantern with a great overview. Oxygen system. Suspended fuel tanks, using which the Mustang, having risen from British territory, had the opportunity to conduct an 15-minute battle over Berlin, and then return to its base in Mildenhall.

Armament - six “Browning” 50-caliber. Selection weapons dictated by the situation. The main opponent is the Luftwaffe fighters, in “dog dumps” with which the maximum rate of fire and the duration of the queues were required.

Total salvo - 70 shots per second. Even before the six-barrel cannons and Hollywood special effects, the P-51D was called “circular”: its lines literally “sawed off” its tails and wings with a swastika.

12,7 mm - dangerous caliber. The Browning machine gun excelled the German 20-mm Erlikon MG-FF aircraft cannon for muzzle energy.

And finally, the heart of the fighter.

By the middle of World War II, the designers had exhausted all the reserves for the modernization of aircraft engines. The only way out for a radical increase in performance was the installation of a turbine on the exhaust pipe. Using the energy of hot gases (up to 30% of the engine's energy!) To pressurize the air into the carburetor.

Work in this direction was carried out in each of the warring powers, but only the ocean could bring the idea to mass production. Licensed Rolls-Royce “Merlin” (“small falcon”) with a turbocharger of its own design allowed the “Mustang” to fight at heights above 7000 m.

In terms of flight performance, the P-51D was undoubtedly the best fighter of the Second World War. Due to its technological design, it was launched with a series of more than 15 thousand aircraft (including the 8156 modification “D”).



Just like the Soviet Union and Germany, the Americans were armed with two main types of fighters. Swift "hawks" with water cooling engines (Yakovlev, Messerschmitt, P-51 "Mustang"). And outwardly awkward "stupid" monsters with a star-shaped air-cooled motor (Lavochkin, Focke-Wulf, P-47).

“Thunderclap”

Take-off weight of 8 tons and combat load, like the two Il-2 attack aircraft.

This was Ripablik P-47 “Thunderbolt”, created by the efforts of the Russian-Georgian aircraft designer Alexander Kartvelishvili.

According to the equation of the existence of the aircraft, when installing any additional load (gun, oxygen system, radio station) to maintain the original LTH will have to proportionally increase all other structural elements (wing area, the volume of fuel tanks, etc.). The weight spiral will twist and rest against a critical parameter - engine power.

In other words, in the presence of an engine of greater power, you can safely increase the take-off weight and install any equipment without compromising the flight characteristics of the aircraft.

The lucky star of Alexander Kartveli was the 18-cylinder “double star” R-2800 with a displacement of 56 liters and a capacity (depending on the modification) 2100 ... 2600 hp

During the war years, this engine was put on many famous aircraft, incl. naval fighters “Hellcat” and “Corsair”. When landing on the deck of the ship R-2800 “Double Wasp” presented considerable threats. At low speeds, its monstrous torque threatened to lead off the course and turn the plane. Because of this, the Corsairs were forced to land at the “side”, around the circumference. But overland “Thunderbolts” didn’t have similar problems; everyone had enough aerodrome size.

Having received a supermotor at its disposal, the engineers of Ripablik Avieish designed the same huge fuselage, a “jug”, filling it with an impressive amount of equipment.



Eight points of built-in weapons with a total 3400 ammunition ammunition. “Thunderbolt” launched 85 large-caliber bullets every second, the name is the length of a continuous queue 40 seconds! Record for a fighter of the Second World War.

A ton of bombs or PTB on external hangers.

90 kilograms of armor plates. Front cabin “Thunderbolt” was covered with a huge engine, and behind - the second, additional, radiator and mechanisms of the turbocharger. With damage that P-47 lost its high-altitude capabilities, but continued to fly and still could fight.

A steel “ski” was installed under the cabin floor to protect the pilot during an emergency landing with the landing gear retracted.

A full range of amenities was present in the cockpit, including an oxygen system, a urinal, and an autopilot. The composition of the onboard radio equipment was not inferior to the “Mustang”.

You should not be ironic about the genius Kartveli, who turned a combat aircraft into a luxury airliner. The designer (himself a former pilot) knew his stuff. The drag coefficient of the thick-minded “Thunderbolt” turned out to be less than that of the small, narrow and thin “Messerschmitt”. The P-47 was one of the fastest fighters of its era. In horizontal flight at an altitude of 8800 meters, it showed the speed of 713 km / h.

It was a universal machine, the ancestor of the modern class of fighter-bombers. High-speed attack aircraft, able to stand up for themselves in air combat. In another scenario: a long monotonous flight next to the “boxes” of strategic bombers.


During one of these attacks, the tank of the famous ace Michael Wittmann was burned (138 victories)


Here is such an amazing attack aircraft, hunter for tanks and an escort fighter. Whose design contained much more amazing devices and innovations than any German “wunderwaffe”.

With regard to the experimental technology of "tomorrow," then over the ocean, too, did not sit idly. Only, unlike the fascist bastards, the winners did not rush to promote their secret development.


Over half a century before the stealth planes, a strategic bomber Northrop YB-49 rose to the sky. Development - from 1944 year, first flight - 1947 year. Eight jet engines, speed 800 km / h, crew - 7 people.




In contrast to the mythical flying saucers of Hitler, these very real cars remained buried under the dust of time.
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  1. Papandopulo
    Papandopulo 14 June 2016 06: 38
    +98
    The Luftwaffe was defeated by the Soviet Air Force over the Kuban in 1943.

    A large number of aircraft and more than half of the German aces were lost, after which few new German pilots began to cover the first time in battle, and before that it was good to cook in flight schools.

    Daytime strategic bombing of Nazi Germany began later, and the first USAAF raid on Schweinfurt and Regensburg ended in complete disaster for the Americans in the air.
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion 14 June 2016 08: 20
      +12
      Do the Luftwaffe themselves know about this?
      1. Santa Fe
        14 June 2016 08: 46
        -107%
        It is interesting to know the opinion of those who regret that the USSR did not get involved in the US war in 1945. Like "bent" the damned Americans with one left

        The Soviet army would face such a force, in comparison with which the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe would have seemed a kindergarten
        1. EvilLion
          EvilLion 14 June 2016 09: 15
          +83
          I’m afraid that they would have bent, simply because of the overwhelming numerical advantage on earth and the quality of the command, which had such experience that the Allies could not even dream of. At the same time, the Americans themselves on land from the Germans stably raked at the tactical level, because simply calling up the millions of people and giving them tens of thousands of units of modern technology cannot be built, you need to reduce this mass to the right organizational structures, the search of which can take years and work out interaction on all levels. In this regard, the Germans were ahead of everyone else, even when the whole world was laughing at how they rolled wooden mock-ups of tanks during exercises. The Americans simply crushed the enemy with metal.

          Another thing is that human resources were already on the verge of exhaustion, and since the summer of 44 the 17-year-olds have already been called up, though they haven’t been sent under bullets, unlike the Germans, who simply ran out of men to 45. This would make it bend very quickly and aggressively.
          1. Santa Fe
            14 June 2016 09: 33
            -76%
            Quote: EvilLion
            In this case, the Americans themselves on the ground from the Germans steadily ogrebali at the tactical level,

            Given that
            a) the losses of the Americans were less than those of the Germans who fought with them
            b) the Americans reached the deadline on all designated lines

            Your statement about who and where ogrebal looks doubtful
            1. tomket
              tomket 14 June 2016 10: 39
              +53
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              Your statement about who and where ogrebal looks doubtful

              Generally, until the age of 44, the Americans on the "fortresses" quite often shook off to the fullest. After 44, the air war in the West no longer played a special role. The destruction of cities only angered the Germans, and they were clearly not going to surrender. And here everything is presented as if the Germans were faced with an irresistible force in the form of "Mustangs". I would like to remind Oleg about the episode when Kurt Tank, driving the Ta-152 to another airfield, left the four Mustangs as standing ones. The temporary crisis of the Luftwaffe in 43. was associated with the lack of high-altitude engines, which was completely overcome on the "Docks" and Ta-152. Well, the Messerschmitt switched to jet technology. So there was no one-sided game, and the author is well aware of this. just as always, one-sided presentation of material with a distortion of the truth. Oleg, minus as always.
              1. goose
                goose 14 June 2016 12: 34
                +17
                Quote: tomket
                The temporary crisis of the Luftwaffe in 43g. was associated with the lack of high-altitude engines

                But the crisis was not connected with this, but with the fact that for the production of heat-resistant steels (the gas heats up very much when compressed into the fuel cells), the alloys used in the fuel cells did not have enough alloys, so the mass production of thermal alloys was impossible. That's why Germans dabbled with jet engines and methanol injection.
                Nevertheless, there were always enough aircraft for the Luftwaffe. There were not enough resources to train pilots and fuel.
                1. Simpsonian
                  Simpsonian 14 June 2016 12: 47
                  +2
                  with jet reacted so well ... just like you with a ball
                2. The comment was deleted.
                3. evgen1945
                  evgen1945 14 June 2016 12: 58
                  +4
                  That's right, from me plus and I agree, the aircraft, including the 262 Messer, stood in tight rows ... without the necessary spare parts and due to the lack of fuel and experienced pilots. Particularly with regards to these very steels
                4. evgen1945
                  evgen1945 14 June 2016 12: 58
                  0
                  That's right, from me plus and I agree, the aircraft, including the 262 Messer, stood in tight rows ... without the necessary spare parts and due to the lack of fuel and experienced pilots. Particularly with regards to these very steels
            2. EvilLion
              EvilLion 14 June 2016 10: 44
              +9
              In conditions of significant numerical superiority, it is possible to exert more fire on the enemy. If there was none, then the battle most likely remained with the Germans. At the same time, the losses there are peculiar, the Germans have stupidly many prisoners. In general, the US Army in the 44th is the Red Army in the 42nd, about which one of the marshalls, I do not remember the name, said that "a regiment of good infantry, they would have reached Berlin," at the tactical level, she simply did not know how to solve typical tasks, quite well described by the same A. Isaev in the book about Zhukov, is a vivid example of how the front commander must personally poke the lieutenant that four people have gone, and let them eliminate the machine-gun point. Cannons cannot crush everything and the infantry rises. All these assault groups and other delights that rolled out the German festungs will come later. M. Hastings "Operation Overlord" read, it's just one-on-one, only we did it 2 years earlier.
            3. Dark mol
              Dark mol 14 June 2016 10: 55
              +32
              What are you lying to? Why? You didn’t hear about the Ardenes or you didn’t hear about the two completely defeated American strategic airborne assault forces? There the front froze for months. Go mine read books!
            4. Nehist
              Nehist 14 June 2016 11: 42
              +28
              On time? Only due to the fact that the most combat-ready units of the Wehrmacht were on the eastern front, the losses were only due to overwhelming superiority! If the Wehrmacht had the same balance of forces and means, the Allies would have washed themselves with blood! And your strange statement in an article about the superiority of machine guns over a gun is epic nonsense !!! It was due to the fact that they could not make a normal airgun and put a machine gun battery
              1. Simpsonian
                Simpsonian 14 June 2016 12: 11
                -12%
                The P-39 had a "normal cannon" and 4 machine guns. And the Americans did not need it with it ... They could take it off them or buy it from the British like the engine for the P-51
            5. goose
              goose 14 June 2016 12: 30
              +14
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              Americans are on time for all the milestones

              What? Which of the operations in Europe failed on time?
              1. Simpsonian
                Simpsonian 14 June 2016 12: 50
                +7
                The raid on Dieppe and the evacuation of Dunkirk ... well, almost.

                And when landing in Normandy, the Germans flew there only four aircraft.
            6. Idiot
              Idiot 14 June 2016 13: 37
              +32
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              Considering that a) the losses of Americans were less than those of the Germans who fought with them), the Americans reached the deadlines on time. Your statement about who and where raked looks doubtful


              on point A: for 1939-1945. The Wehrmacht lost on the "western front" in killed - 205 809 people, wounded - 716 915 people, prisoners - 1 025 people. Total irrecoverable losses - 577 1 231 people. The USA lost in killed - 386 people, wounded - 192 people, captured - 056 people. England lost in killed - 607 468 people, wounded - 167 822 people, prisoners - 296 984 people. Total irrecoverable losses of the allies - 281 500 people. If we compare exclusively the losses of Germany and the United States, which would be biased, then the losses of the battlefield (killed) 332 Germans and 468 Americans do not convincingly prove the superiority of the American military machine over the German one.
              on point B: the allies reached the designated lines only when they were allowed to do so by the Eastern Front.
              Further, given the combat capability of the so-called "depot divisions" formations opposing the allies, it was the allies who were shocked (it's a mystery to me why you don't take into account the actions of the British, but speak only about the Americans. It seems that they speak the same language. Do you have an American grandfather?). We were even forced to postpone the offensive in January 1945 by two weeks in order to save the miracle warriors ...
              1. Seal
                Seal 14 June 2016 21: 13
                0
                Are your numbers based on fighting in Africa or not?
                1. Idiot
                  Idiot 15 June 2016 08: 42
                  +3
                  Quote: Seal
                  Are your numbers based on fighting in Africa or not?


                  Yes. These are losses from the actions of the allies on all fronts.
                2. The comment was deleted.
              2. Warrior2015
                Warrior2015 14 June 2016 23: 12
                -8
                Quote: pft, fkb
                We were even forced to postpone the offensive in January 1945 for two weeks in order to save the miracle warriors ...
                It is a myth. You are not familiar with the Ardennes operation.
                1. The comment was deleted.
                2. Idiot
                  Idiot 15 June 2016 11: 23
                  +10
                  Quote: Warrior2015
                  It is a myth. You are not familiar with the Ardennes operation.


                  I am familiar with the course of the Ardennes operation. I know that, for example, the 6th TA SS, already on March 6, participated in the battles on the island of Balaton, and then opposed the troops of the 2nd and 3rd Ukrainian fronts during the Vienna strategic operation. The German command believed that on the Eastern Front this army was needed. Regarding, as you believe, myth-making, I recommend that you familiarize yourself with the source: the correspondence of Stalin I.V. with Roosevelt and Churchill. In particular, Roosevelt’s letter to Stalin No. 250 dated 24.12.1945, Churchill’s letter to Stalin No. 376 dated 24.12.1945, Stalin’s letter to Churchill No. 379 dated 25.12.1945, Churchill’s letter to Stalin No. 383 dated 06.01.1945/384/07.01.1945, and Stalin’s letter to Churchill No. 385 dated January 09.01.1945, 391, letter from Churchill to Stalin No. 15.01.1945 dated January 257, 15.01.1945, letter from Stalin to Churchill No. 395 dated January 17.01.1945, 258, letter from Stalin Roosevelt No. 18.01.1945 dated January 21, 17.01.1945, letter from Churchill to Stalin No. XNUMX dated January XNUMX, XNUMX ., Roosevelt letter to Stalin No. XNUMX of XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX. Pay attention to the intensity of correspondence, the content will give you an idea of ​​the allies' interest in activating the Eastern Front, especially Churchill, who was not worried about the Americans who were beaten in the Ardennes, but about his XNUMXst army, which went on the offensive on January XNUMX, XNUMX. That is why he curtsied before Stalin throughout the first half of January. And the beginning of the Vistula-Oder strategic offensive operation really began a week ahead of schedule as a result of this correspondence. This is an objective fact ...
              3. Tsoy
                Tsoy 16 June 2016 07: 03
                -2
                during the sea lion, the British nibbled the Germans well, but they did not dare to land on the Queen’s island.
            7. Razvedka_Boem
              Razvedka_Boem 14 June 2016 19: 15
              +16
              The western front was considered by the Germans almost a resort. I am exaggerating, of course, but those who had previously been to the East felt it especially. There was simply no such intensity of fighting in the West. Also, the allys, who nevertheless opened the "second front" in 1944 (for they already understood that the USSR would be able to cope without them and they would simply not be allowed to share the pie) fought, let's say, mediocre. Before that, Rommel in Africa drove them in the tail and in the mane, and after the landing, their successes were explained by air supremacy and the fact that most of the troops fought on the Eastern Front.
              1. overb
                overb 14 June 2016 19: 38
                -28%
                Quote: Razvedka_Boem
                Also, the ally, who nevertheless opened the "second front" in 1944

                The fourth front, if you have decided so carefully to consider.
                Because the second front, as you know from the "witty Soviet films", is stew. By the way, contrary to the sarcasm in the film, the soldier there was quite rightly noticed. Without food supplies, there was no first front already in 1943. would not be.
                The third front was opened in the summer of 1943. in Sicily-Italy.
                And already the fourth front was opened in 1944. in France.
                Quote: Razvedka_Boem
                for they already understood that it turns out that the USSR will cope without them and they simply will not be allowed to divide the pie

                Who will not let? And what forces will not let? Well, at least they didn’t deceive the potential nepuskalschik, let them go.
                Quote: Razvedka_Boem
                fought, so to speak, mediocre.

                And then. Not human cost. Is this really a war? Now, if they were putting soldiers in stacks, that’s another matter. Honor and respect would be from owls ***.
                Quote: Razvedka_Boem
                Before that, Rommel drove them in Africa in the tail and mane.

                And then. Only then did he take a plane to Vaterland, and all his troops surrendered and were captured. And so, the great was a commander. Wow.
                Quote: Razvedka_Boem
                their success was due to air supremacy and the fact that most of the troops fought on the Eastern Front.

                And another rotation of the earth. Bullets and shells fly from west to east. Yeah.
                1. Razvedka_Boem
                  Razvedka_Boem 15 June 2016 05: 19
                  +16
                  Hmm .. a difficult case ..) After reading your comments, I can say with certainty one thing - you were not born in the USSR, or from that breed of people who "piled over the hill", and then pour dirt on their former homeland from there, which raised you ...
                  Do you know why we would (allies) in the conflict anyway bend down? Yes, and now confident in yourself?
                  1. overb
                    overb 15 June 2016 11: 42
                    -12%
                    Quote: Razvedka_Boem
                    you were not born in the USSR,

                    Yes, I was not born in the USSR. And not even in the RSFSR. I was born in Russia. In the historical sense of the word. Realize what that means? Ever heard of such a state? Or for you the whole civilization is locked in a historical misunderstanding in the form of the USSR?
                    1. Starik72
                      Starik72 1 December 2016 21: 32
                      +2
                      overb. You yourself are a misunderstanding and not the USSR.
                  2. overb
                    overb 15 June 2016 12: 47
                    +1
                    Quote: Razvedka_Boem
                    Do you know why we would (allies) in the conflict anyway bend down?

                    Even in 1945, after the multimillion-dollar victims of the Second World War, which he presented to the Anglo-Saxons, you, "nagibatel", led by a mustachioed katso, were thrown on a large scale 2 times.
                    The first time France was included among the winners. Thus, taking the USSR under the occupation zone is not a third, but only a quarter of Germany. I had to swallow.
                    And the second time, when the roof of the mustache katso finally went off, he decided to take the pose of an important chela in relation to Japan. As a result of this "demarche", the United States and its allies concluded a separate peace with Japan. And Japan left the regime of surrender to the USSR a little later. The result is not just kidos, but a grandiose kidos.
                    That was how he really was, your "great and terrible" mustachioed katso. A trifle pot-bellied regional scale.
                    With the Russian tsars, even at the time of their weakness, no one allowed themselves to do this. Yes, it happened that they were punished (Crimean War), but they didn’t humiliate them so brazenly and cynically. This is the state to which the Bolshevik USSR degraded by 1945. compared to tsarist Russia.
                    1. SklochPensioner
                      SklochPensioner 21 June 2016 05: 43
                      +8
                      Quote: overb
                      Even in 1945, after the multimillion-dollar victims of the Second World War, which he presented to the Anglo-Saxons, you, "nagibatel", led by a mustachioed katso, were thrown on a large scale 2 times.

                      The gentleman from spitting I wanted where) exudes poison and hatred and lies all the time as he breathes. He is not attracted to a hundred-year-old senile))), otherwise the old bastard) would have written that he was born in the Russian Empire, and he would be ashamed to use words like "kidos", respecting his "noble" origin laughing
                      Two for teachers of the crush!
                  3. The comment was deleted.
              2. The comment was deleted.
              3. Simpsonian
                Simpsonian 15 June 2016 00: 26
                +18
                Mongolia alone supplied more meat for free than the US Lend-Lease.

                The Americans and the British did not have a war but a "walk".

                The rotation of the Earth explains why the eastern bank of the rivers is gentle, the western bank is steep, why it was more difficult to force the river from East to West.
              4. Simpsonian
                Simpsonian 15 June 2016 05: 59
                0
                Italian - a trip to historical places! request
              5. Mikhail Matyugin
                Mikhail Matyugin 15 June 2016 15: 12
                -7
                Quote: Razvedka_Boem
                Also, the ally, who nevertheless opened the "second front" in 1944

                The second front was opened in January 1941 of the year in North Africa. You probably don’t know about this?
                1. Razvedka_Boem
                  Razvedka_Boem 15 June 2016 16: 41
                  +10
                  I know a lot that you do not know. But in relation to the opening of the "second front", in all, unbiased books on history, it will be designated as the landing of the allies in Normandy. If you suddenly did not know it.
                  And in Africa, as I have already noticed, the Angles and Amers, Rommel beat as he wanted with much less strength. At some moment, he lacked the literal one tank battalion to win the African company, the Eastern Front ate all the resources.
                  After Rommel left Africa, only a different look at the plans with Field Marshal Rundstend and the subsequent wound did not allow Rommel to turn around in France.
                  1. overb
                    overb 16 June 2016 21: 33
                    -5
                    Quote: Razvedka_Boem
                    in all unbiased history books

                    Are these the ones that Agitrop has reviewed? Yes Yes. Very unbiased books.
                    Quote: Razvedka_Boem
                    Rommel beat as he wanted with much less power

                    Remind you how this cue ball finally got on the plane and cut into the Vaterland? And his remaining comrades (which did not have enough space on the plane) surrendered amicably?
                    Draw a dash of what. Already upstart Rommel brilliant.
                    Quote: Razvedka_Boem
                    he missed the literal one tank battalion

                    Losers always do. They would live in a villa and splash around in their own pool. But at the right moment, they did not have any ridiculous little things. And so now they live five of them in a one-room Khrushchev.
                    Quote: Razvedka_Boem
                    only a different look at the plans with Field Marshal Rundstend and the subsequent wound did not allow Rommel to turn around in France

                    Rommel, admittedly, was very lucky. He died on time. Therefore, now you can build any assumptions you like. If you forget, of course, about the failure of the African company. Another German Wonderfull that didn’t work.
                2. Simpsonian
                  Simpsonian 16 June 2016 07: 32
                  -1
                  Wasn't there a "front" in Africa before? lol
                  it’s so Churchill to be called so insisted
                3. Simpsonian
                  Simpsonian 16 June 2016 07: 32
                  -1
                  Wasn't there a "front" in Africa before? lol
                  it’s so Churchill to be called so insisted
                4. SklochPensioner
                  SklochPensioner 21 June 2016 05: 55
                  +4
                  Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
                  The second front was opened in January 1941 of the year in North Africa. You probably don’t know about this?

                  And you, apparently, do not know that you need to beat the enemy on its territory?
                  DO YOU NOT KNOW that if, God forbid, Russia will fight with NATO, then the United States will be hit first? !!
                  Of course you don’t know. A pity: less would be clever.
                5. Idiot
                  Idiot 28 June 2016 07: 07
                  +4
                  [quote = Mikhail Matyugin] The second front was opened in January 1941 in North Africa. You probably don't know about this? [/ Quote

                  Rommel landed in Africa in March 1941, before the German attack on the USSR, and aimed to fight the British army in this region. What significance did this "first front" have for the USSR? Rather, the Eastern Front was the "second" and, of course, out of respect for you, we admit that our allies in Africa broke the backbone of the Nazis ...
            8. igoryok1984
              igoryok1984 14 June 2016 20: 18
              +5
              Because the most combat-ready units fought on the Eastern Front
              1. overb
                overb 14 June 2016 20: 28
                -17%
                Quote: igoryok1984
                the most combat-ready units fought on the Eastern Front

                And Wittman, is he one of these too? Of the least combat-ready?
              2. The comment was deleted.
            9. Alf
              Alf 14 June 2016 21: 03
              +10
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              Your statement about who and where ogrebal looks doubtful

              The Ardennes. Even without fuel, the Germans explained to the Allies that their number was sixteen. And Roosevelt and Churchill in a panic turned to Uncle Joe with a request for an urgent attack.
          2. yehat
            yehat 14 June 2016 10: 32
            +27
            you need to understand what quality the Germans had in France — there were 2 lines of soldiers there who were limitedly fit for service — old veterans, Hitler youth, people with disabilities and the sick.
            Only 2 divisions were in a state of high suitability for offensive operations.
            A small contingent of foreign volunteers like Norwegians, French, Spaniards, Czechs. Equipment was much weaker than in most divisions of the eastern front. It was they who defended themselves in France. And even they, if not for the colossal superiority in the aviation of the Allies, would easily have resisted all the forces of the Allies.
            And the USSR had about 15 times more forces, and these were mostly veterans who had passed the war years at a suitable age. By 45, the USSR had a good complement of officers, had a high military coordination. If the Allies had launched the "unthinkable" operation, the USSR would have defeated their main forces within 3-4 months.
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 14 June 2016 12: 13
              +6
              Weeks ........
              1. yehat
                yehat 14 June 2016 13: 01
                +3
                no, not weeks.
                You forget about the equipment of the Allied army - they were ready for a maneuver war, plus a great danger from airstrikes. And the main strength of the Red Army was artillery training and competent breakthroughs of horse-mechanized groups and infantry encirclement. The Allies had something to answer to both of these arguments, because their equipment with vehicles + communications + air reconnaissance allowed them to leave coverage.
                1. Simpsonian
                  Simpsonian 14 June 2016 15: 33
                  +2
                  You forgot about the pace of advancement into the Wisla-Oder and Berlin operations and that the American German army was no match.
                  cavalry was notable in them
                  1. yehat
                    yehat 15 June 2016 09: 36
                    +1
                    no, you forgot it. Forgot the terrain - a large number of convenient reference points and rivers that need to be forced.
                    they forgot that the tanks under the air strikes will not leave anywhere (I refer to the hs-129 raid near Kursk on our tank unit - they defeated it when moving to the front)
                    Germans had similar problems when retreating in France - aviation literally paralyzed daytime movements
                    1. Simpsonian
                      Simpsonian 15 June 2016 11: 37
                      +5
                      Were they not there or were they?
                      Tanks not only drive, they also maneuver so that they don’t hit them

                      How many hs-129 raids and IL-2 raids were? And where did the anti-aircraft guns go?

                      Anglo-American could not paralyze anything against the Soviet at low altitude
          3. U-krop
            U-krop 14 June 2016 13: 10
            +1
            What is the numerical advantage of the Red Army over the Allies in 1945?)))
            The USSR had scooped up lyuley from Zapadniklv to pamper yourself. The first argument is, as you have already said, the mobile resource has ended in the USSR. The Westerners had no problems with this.
            The second argument - about half of Soviet shells and mines and bombs were supplied with Lend-Lease explosive. Something similar was out of gunpowder.
            The third argument - the USSR has been critically dependent since 1943 on the supply of Lend-Lease jet fuel. NOT him, Soviet aviation is chained to the ground. And you understand how to not have aviation in action then. Despite the fact that the air power of the Allies was much stronger for the Luft, even in their starry days.
            Chetvetrtiy’s argument - America and Britain are flinging parts of strategic aviation to the Middle East and from there bombing mercilessly the oil industry of Azerbaijan, which still added about 70% of Soviet oil. so that the USSR was deprived not only without Lend-Lease jet fuel, but also an overwhelming amount of gasoline and solarium. Like this hi
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. Idiot
              Idiot 14 June 2016 13: 53
              +18
              U-krop: no comment. You, either a troll, or, like that janitor, "poorly versed in the class structure of society" ...
              1. U-krop
                U-krop 14 June 2016 19: 13
                -13%
                Then counter-argue me ...
                1. plebs
                  plebs 15 June 2016 02: 33
                  +11
                  Then counter-argue me ...
                  You would remember your simple Ukrainian guy who piled a couple of super-sophisticated Americans on a plywood airplane in a small battle, and didn’t even sweat. If anything, I'm talking about Kozhedub, otherwise maybe he is not your hero now. A minus to the author of the article.
                2. The comment was deleted.
                3. Idiot
                  Idiot 15 June 2016 15: 18
                  +3
                  Quote: U-krop
                  Then counter-argue me ...


                  Regarding the Lend-lease explosives: Next, let us give the floor to Comrade Svirin - = All Lend-lease ballistic powders in our charging numbers at temperatures below -15C suddenly showed large pressure surges. In particular, therefore, katyusha shells, equipped with Canadian swords in the cold, tore apart at the start. Therefore, they began to use mixed equipment. In particular, out of 7 checkers in a row of the M-13 projectile, only one Canadian and 6 domestic were used. The same is true in shell casings (especially in long casings of anti-aircraft and anti-tank guns), they began to use mixed propellants. But our ordinary pyroxylin gunpowders were slightly worse in calorie content than good American ones (only 0,2-0,5%). This is understandable because we used bleached wood cellulose for propellants. BUT American artillery pyroxylin powder 17/7 and 14/7 were supplied predominantly with FNH (flameless non-hygroscopic) had a high percentage of potassium sulfate, which worsened the formation of a sheaf of fire, and, especially in a humid atmosphere, increased smoke production. Moreover, potassium sulfate was present even in rifle cartridges and the use of, say, rifle cartridges with VT OD gunpowder led to the fact that after 600 shots the Maxim machine gun refused, after 100 shots the SVT refused and 150-200 shots stopped the DP operation. In addition, as with ballistic powders, American pyroxylinic powder had a high content of dinitrotoluene and
                  dibutyl phthalate to reduce hygroscopicity. And this led to an outbreak of powder powder entirely at low temperature. And at -15-20С there were cases of rupture of the breech ZIS-3, anti-aircraft guns mod 1939. Therefore, these gunpowders were used only in a special installation. But all this did not immediately become clear. And therefore, at the beginning of 1943, they preferred armor-piercing and sub-caliber shells to be equipped with English and Canadian ballistic gunpowder, as having a smaller spread of initial speeds.
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                  2. The comment was deleted.
                  3. Idiot
                    Idiot 15 June 2016 19: 31
                    +5
                    Now we do the analysis using the information received. The first - the most difficult time for the powder industry is the beginning of 42 years. By March they had already overcome and the allies were out of work here. The second - there were simplified wartime production technologies including gunpowder without deficient components. The disadvantages of these gunpowders and explosives are the impossibility of a long-lasting years of storage and increased wear of the trunks, that is, not critical for short-term use. In fact, the list of LL components for the production of gunpowder shows that they are not basic, but serve to improve the quality of the obtained powder. I draw your attention - = quality = but not = quantity =. I feel that opponents will object in this place - in 44 the Red Army consumed about 40 percent of LL gunpowder, the USSR could not cope if it weren’t for LL gunpowder, etc. .... I answer - the difficulties with the use of imported gunpowder were cited above - mixing, heat, etc. Therefore, seeing that WWII would end soon, the Soviet Union sought to use as much problematic ammunition as possible, because in peacetime it would be more profitable to accumulate higher-quality ammunition — it would be stored longer. Now back to the components for the production of gunpowder. And here it is clear that these LL components provide an increase in the quality, but not the amount of gunpowder. Therefore, here, LL did not have a significant impact on the course of hostilities - a soldier does not need to keep ammunition for 25 years and he doesn’t care if he rifles the rifle barrel from intensive shooting after three years, because he is fighting now. So it turns out that LL components for the powder industry did not have a significant effect on the database, but helped to quickly create a post-war stockpile of ammunition.
                  4. U-krop
                    U-krop 17 June 2016 13: 10
                    -2
                    I am aware that Lend-Lease gunpowder was not 100% suitable for Soviet weapons, and therefore they were mixed with Soviet gunpowder. But if they were so bad, why did the USSR continue to supply them in LL?
            3. 97110
              97110 14 June 2016 14: 28
              +8
              Quote: U-krop
              The USSR had scooped up lyuley from Zapadniklv to pamper yourself.

              All Ukrainian fronts would die? Or fled to America? Is it possible, lad, to use the Russian language on a Russian resource? It is useful for the Svidomo individual, by the way. When it comes to the traces of gray matter that America is not with you, where will you run?
              1. U-krop
                U-krop 14 June 2016 19: 14
                -13%
                Stay in place. for she is not so with us wink
            4. Forest
              Forest 14 June 2016 16: 15
              +7
              Do you know how much an air regiment eats fuel per day and how much can a tanker load? Moreover, the tankers did not go in full flow.
            5. Alex
              Alex 14 June 2016 16: 53
              +8
              It would be amazing if you wrote another, U-bang ...
            6. andrewkor
              andrewkor 14 June 2016 18: 03
              +3
              Joseph is thawing
            7. Grenader
              Grenader 14 June 2016 20: 10
              +4
              The invasion of drought. Pardon the unclean censor.
            8. Evver
              Evver 14 June 2016 20: 50
              +10
              Have you heard about the plan "Unthinkable"? If, according to you, everything was so chocolatey with the Amers and Britons, just click your fingers - why are they afraid? Even the Fritzes were held in divisions in their camps in case of a conflict with the Red Army ...
              And do not shmogli!
            9. Alf
              Alf 14 June 2016 21: 07
              +4
              Quote: U-krop
              from there they bombarded mercilessly the oil industry of Azerbaijan, which about 70% of Soviet oil was added to as before.

              Do not forget, if you certainly know about air defense of Baku.
              1. Operator
                Operator 14 June 2016 22: 25
                +9
                He does not know about the existence of not only Baku’s air defense, but also the 47 Army deployed in Northern Iran from 1941 to 1946 with the task of liberating the Middle East (Southern Iran, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Transjordan and up to the heap of Saudi Arabia) from the British and the French colonialists in the event of a war of the West with the USSR.
                1. overb
                  overb 14 June 2016 23: 08
                  -5
                  Quote: Operator
                  but also the 47th Army, stationed in Northern Iran from 1941 to 1946 with the task of liberating the Middle East (Southern Iran, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Transjordan and up to the heap of Saudi Arabia) from the British and French colonialists in the event of a Western war with the USSR.

                  PPC. Where did you come from such a dreamer?
                  USSR at the end of August 1941 together with Britain attacked Iran. And on August 30, he occupied the northern occupation zone. Troops were stationed in Iran to secure the southern Lend-Lease supply route. There were 3 armies (44, 47 and 53) and the 4th cavalry corps. They were given the power of the Caspian flotilla.
                  In May 1946 The USSR withdrew its troops from Iran.
                  1. Operator
                    Operator 15 June 2016 01: 18
                    +2
                    It is advisable at least sometimes to analyze Wikipedia material, and not just copy-paste: to hell with the Soviet Union in Iran the whole war, including the critical 1941 and 1942 years, was held by the whole front — to shoot with local partisans?

                    It is also advisable to familiarize yourself with the terms of reference for the development of the TB-7 heavy bomber, where Damascus and Baghdad, the centers of protectorates of France and Britain, were called typical targets for bombing attacks (suddenly).
                    1. overb
                      overb 15 June 2016 01: 32
                      -3
                      Quote: Operator
                      It is advisable at least sometimes to analyze Wikipedia material

                      Here you are, dark, and explain.
                      Quote: Operator
                      on the horse-radish of the USSR in Iran throughout the war, including the critical 1941 and 1942, held a whole front - to shoot with local partisans?

                      Do not exaggerate, the armies were scanty composition. In addition to Iran, Central Asia and the Caucasus were included in their area of ​​responsibility (have they forgotten about Turkey?). And Iran, a rather big country. And the Persians from the occupation were not enthusiastic. In addition, the location of Iran was of strategic importance to the USSR. Therefore, the USSR kept troops there.
                      Quote: Operator
                      It is also advisable to familiarize yourself with the terms of reference for the development of the heavy bomber TB-7, where Damascus and Baghdad were called typical targets for bombing (suddenly)

                      In the USSR, this could mean only one thing; Damascus and Baghdad were not targets for these machines.
                      1. Operator
                        Operator 15 June 2016 02: 18
                        +5
                        Kutsaya is not kutsaya, but a group of armies, however. For the USSR, much more than Iran, in terms of defense it was Soviet Transcaucasia, however, three armies (surprise) were located in Iran. And for Lend-Lease, Murmansk and Chukotka were quite enough.

                        With regard to bombers, Russian is said to be "targets", not "targets." Hike, you are at the same level versed in the Soviet TK.
                      2. overb
                        overb 15 June 2016 02: 37
                        -3
                        Quote: Operator
                        And for Lend-Lease, Murmansk and Chukotka were quite enough.

                        You, of course, know better.
                        Quote: Operator
                        With regard to bombers, Russian is said to be "targets", not "targets."

                        Do not teach me the Russian language.
                        Quote: Operator
                        Campaign, you are at the same level versed in Soviet TK.

                        I forgot to ask you.
                  2. The comment was deleted.
              2. Simpsonian
                Simpsonian 15 June 2016 01: 18
                +4
                There was a treaty with Iran that it could be "attacked" like that if it was unable to secure its independence itself. The British did not have such an agreement with him.

                For the provision of transit, the introduction of troops is optional.

                overb, ES you bring people so that they do not bother you to defecate with their dregs ...
              3. The comment was deleted.
              4. U-krop
                U-krop 17 June 2016 13: 12
                -1
                Do you want to say that Baku’s air defense could reflect American strategic air raids?))
                Despite the fact that Soviet fighters would have stood on the ground without jet fuel))
        2. Idiot
          Idiot 14 June 2016 13: 11
          +14
          Quote: EvilLion
          Another thing is that human resources were already on the verge of exhaustion, and since the summer of the 44th, 17-year-olds have already been called up


          You're not right. Only 18-year-olds were called. Even in 1941-1942. Regarding the exhaustion of human resources by the average monthly payroll of active fronts: 3rd quarter of 1941 (22.06.1941) - 3 people, by the 334th quarter (Battle of Moscow) - 400 people. These are reservists, the staff is practically lost. By the way, at this time, Fromm's reserve army of 4 people was exhausted, 2 ages were called up - about 815 people, which allowed the Wehrmacht to maintain the number of active army at 500 people. Irrecoverable losses of the Red Army in 1 - first of all prisoners and missing persons: 200 000 15 people. Further, the 8th quarter of 000. (Stalingrad) - 000 3 200 people. 000rd quarter 1941 (Kursk) - 2 993 803 people. This is the peak of the power of the Red Army. In subsequent periods, the number of the army in the field will decline: in 4. (1942 Stalinist blows) - from 6 343 600 people. in the 3st quarter up to 1943 6 816 people in the 800th quarter. This is the time of the highest tension of the Eastern Front, the State Army Center "Center", its backbone, was destroyed. In the 1944st quarter of 10. - 6 268 600 people., At the final stage of the war - 1 6 770 people. That is, there is no increase in the number of troops, it is optimal throughout the war and not excessively redundant (like that of the allies). The technical saturation of the army is growing quantitatively, the combat experience of the troops and the quality of their command and control are growing incredibly. And the main thing is losses. The percentage of personnel losses (cumulative) is decreasing from 100% in 4. up to 1% in 1945, up to 6% in 461, up to 100% in 6, up to 135% in 300. And this does not fit with the fact that 142,42-year-olds are being drafted. This fits in with the more effective work of military medicine than the Germans. Of 1941 133,26 1942 people. sanitary losses, 117,13 1943 99,29 people. were returned to service. Of these, 1944 people were injured from 44,6 to 1945. These are people with combat experience, which the Germans already lacked in 17-18. In total in the USSR, overcoats were worn by about 190 million people, of which about 693 people. women. Irrecoverable losses - 10 people. (with the Far East). Huge losses, but the mobilization resource was not exhausted, in contrast to Germany, which, with a similar and even more stress, lost ALL! PS: in my deepest conviction, Germany on the Eastern Front has irrevocably lost at least 530 million people, of which at least 750 million people were killed ... They showered us with corpses.
          1. EvilLion
            EvilLion 14 June 2016 14: 13
            +2
            34 million is mobilized for everything, including women digging trenches outside the front, in reality, millions of 23-25 were involved in the front. Do not forget about the Far East, troops in Iran. General mob. Theoretically, the reserve is 25% of the population, this is 45-50 million, but it will not be possible to drive all the men into the army, a teenager, a specialist with 20-years of experience will not replace, plus the quality of the population is different, from nat. they were tormented by divisions, but first they called on the Russians, and not those who still need to learn the language. So I don’t see anything like this in the exhaustion of men, especially since city guys who had some kind of education at that time were still in great shortage due to the low percentage of urbanization.

            Germany, by the way, was easier with millions of prisoners still from France, Osterbayer, etc.
            1. Idiot
              Idiot 14 June 2016 15: 57
              +2
              34 million people passed through the armed forces. Of course, far from all went to the front, only in the Far East a million stood the whole war.
            2. Idiot
              Idiot 14 June 2016 15: 57
              0
              34 million people passed through the armed forces. Of course, far from all went to the front, only in the Far East a million stood the whole war.
        3. The comment was deleted.
        4. Proxima
          Proxima 14 June 2016 14: 44
          +6
          Quote: EvilLion
          At the same time, the Americans themselves on land from the Germans stably raked at the tactical level, because simply calling up the millions of people and giving them tens of thousands of pieces of modern technology cannot be built, you need to reduce this mass to the right organizational structures, the search of which can take years and work out interaction on all levels.

          The Americans weren't just on a tactical level. Let us recall at least the Ardennes operation of the Germans (end of 44th - beginning of 45th, the initial stage), when the allies were on the brink of disaster. More than 80 people were captured by the Germans. Yes, and in the air, the allies were not so smooth. For example, we can cite the not "entirely successful" raid on Berlin, which took place on the night of March 000/30, 31. Then the allies lost 1944 (!!!) four-engine bombers. True, these were not the Americans, but the Anglo-Canadians, but the Luftwaffe also beat the Americans thoroughly. There is no doubt that if the Americans competed with the Germans in open combat, and not "from around the corner" (ocean, strait ...), then America's chances (both on the ground and in the air) until mid-95 JUST WOULD NOT BE.
          1. overb
            overb 14 June 2016 15: 08
            -8
            Quote: Proxima
            Let us recall at least the German Ardennes operation (the end of the 44th - the beginning of the 45th, the initial stage), when the Allies were on the brink of disaster. The Germans captured more than 80 prisoners.

            Another propagandist. Nothing terrible happened at all in the Ardennes. It took the Americans to retreat, they retreated. Earth tea is not its own, it’s not a pity. And they received all the prisoners a few months ago. Safe and sound. Then, with honors sent home. Captive, not dead.
            1. Aleks.Antonov
              Aleks.Antonov 14 June 2016 22: 29
              +2
              All is correct. Nothing terrible happened in the Ardennes. And in vain Stalin intervened in the course of events. It was necessary to wait for the Germans to send the Americans back. It doesn't matter where, to the states or England. For that, our people died a hundred less.
              1. Warrior2015
                Warrior2015 15 June 2016 00: 04
                -3
                Quote: Aleks.Antonov
                Nothing terrible happened in the Ardennes. And in vain Stalin intervened in the course of events. It was necessary to wait for the Germans to send the Americans back. It doesn't matter where, to the states or England. For that, our people died a hundred less.

                Sorry, you just probably don’t know that Stalin intervened even when the Anglo-Saxons had already stopped the German offensive themselves. Under the Ardennes, the Germans didn’t succeed for the second time - unlike the 1940 of the year.
          2. U-krop
            U-krop 14 June 2016 19: 18
            -11%
            It is funny that when the Germans squeezed the Amers against the wall under the Ardennes, their losses were almost the same - 1 to 1 (20 to 19). In all other cases, 1 to 1,5
            1. kugelblitz
              kugelblitz 14 June 2016 20: 36
              +5
              Some heroes of the UPA only destroyed countless hordes of vrazhin! Piglet, what have you forgotten here?
            2. Alf
              Alf 14 June 2016 21: 09
              +1
              Quote: U-krop
              It is funny that when the Germans squeezed the Amers against the wall under the Ardennes, their losses were almost the same - 1 to 1 (20 to 19).

              So why did the Americans drape if the losses were the same?
        5. vadim dok
          vadim dok 14 June 2016 16: 06
          -15%
          America produced and during the time 327,8 thousand planes, and the USSR 151,3 tons, England 131,3 tons. And America delivered 2 times more aluminum to the USSR than the USSR produced, and Yaks flew until the end of the war with plywood wings! In addition to the armored box, the IL2 also had plywood! The whole fuselage and tail were plywood! America delivered more than half of all gasoline, not to mention tank planes! And how many lives were saved by the states supplying food! And you think you could defeat the allies? Blessed is he who believes.
          1. Razvedka_Boem
            Razvedka_Boem 14 June 2016 18: 32
            +8
            It was good for America to sit overseas and eat fat while the USSR crushed the Germans. A tree on airplanes was not from a good life. When the enterprises are bombed, and the survivors are relocated to the East, in difficult conditions, and then practically in the open air they organize production .. They did not have enough, they looked for substitutes, tried to save as much as possible. And by the way, these wooden planes broke the Fritz.
            1. U-krop
              U-krop 14 June 2016 19: 38
              -17%
              And what was America fat during the war? Maybe on the supply of goods under a Lend-Lease for 50 yards of greenery, despite the fact that they returned about 15? By the way. in 1945, the US national debt became the largest in the history of the United States at that time. So think with your head, if any.
              1. Aleks.Antonov
                Aleks.Antonov 14 June 2016 23: 00
                +5
                Here you are, absolutely wrong! It was on the supply of goods for Lend-Lease, on the supply of weapons that America was fat! And you're lying to the return account. By the way, the Soviet Union did not get 50 lard dollars, but only 11. And Russia still pays Lend-Lease debt. And it will pay until 2030. But the outskirts do not pay a shit according to Lend-Lease. By the way, we pay not with paper, but with gold.
                1. overb
                  overb 14 June 2016 23: 23
                  -4
                  Quote: Aleks.Antonov
                  And Russia still pays Lend-Lease debt.

                  There will certainly be some kind of illiterate pretzel claiming that Lend-Lease deliveries were paid.
                  Quote: Aleks.Antonov
                  And it will pay until 2030.

                  If we pay, then the debts on foreign trade operations. Lend-lease was not a foreign trade operation. And deliveries on it were free.
                  Quote: Aleks.Antonov
                  By the way, we pay not with paper, but with gold.

                  Yeah. Fir cones.
                2. Simpsonian
                  Simpsonian 15 June 2016 00: 18
                  +2
                  If they were free, then why pay with fir cones?
          2. Aleks.Antonov
            Aleks.Antonov 14 June 2016 22: 43
            +8
            Your numbers are correct, but I personally believe that the Soviet Army of 1945 would have defeated the Allies in a couple of weeks on the European continent. About the same as a little later in three weeks she destroyed the Kwantung Army. And it was the Japanese, not the Americans, the British, or the French. Or do you, in all seriousness, think that Japan capitulated because of some atomic bombs? If so, then you are a naive person. Another thing is that the Soviet Union did not need a war with the United States.
        6. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 14 June 2016 17: 07
          +3
          Quote: EvilLion
          Another thing is that human resources were already on the verge of exhaustion, and since the summer of 44 the 17-year-olds have already been called up, though they haven’t been sent under bullets, unlike the Germans, who simply ran out of men to 45. This would make it bend very quickly and aggressively.

          The problem is that in 1945 the manpower resources of the USSR were not "on the brink of exhaustion", but were already exhausted. The dynamics of exhaustion was such that where before the war there was enough mob-resource for a corps, by the end of 1944 a couple of battalions remained.
          Divisions of 5-6 thousand did not appear from a good life. He could not already rear in 1945 to give people for staffing. The only reserve could be the rear districts. But even this is not so simple: in the event of a war with the USA, the grouping on the Far East cannot be touched. And the USSR Army did not have more significant human reserves.

          The second weak point of the USSR is logistics. It is enough to say that by the beginning of the Berlin operation each of the fronts had 1 (one) branch with a cross-gauge. On the rest, it was necessary to change the wheelset.

          And the third point is high-altitude air defense. There is nothing to reflect the waves of "fortresses" of the USSR. And these waves will go - and they will go through the nodal stations. We have nothing to replace the railway with: in the offensive, the autobaths are torn between the supply from the warehouses to the railway and the transport of troops of the forward detachments.
          1. Aleks.Antonov
            Aleks.Antonov 14 June 2016 23: 07
            +6
            Scribe!
            The Soviet Army would not have had enough fighters to cut down the "fortresses". Why then did the Americans and the British, having "fortresses" and an atomic bomb, "piss with boiling water", but did not dare to start a war against the Soviet Union? And why did they crap so liquid a little later in Korea? And a little later in Vietnam? You are delusional sir!
      2. Tim
        Tim 14 June 2016 09: 19
        +1
        What strengths?
      3. tlauicol
        tlauicol 14 June 2016 09: 24
        -6
        absolutely right. awesome article!
        1. BMP-2
          BMP-2 14 June 2016 11: 03
          +33
          Quote: Tlauicol
          absolutely right. awesome article!

          It depends on what to go nuts! laughing

          If from statements that the Germans did not have aircraft engines more powerful than 2000 hp. and they had nothing to oppose to "Mustangs" and "Thunderbolts", and "Thunderbolt" is one of the fastest with its 713 km / h - then of course! laughing

          In reality, the Germans had the Ta-152 with an engine of 2050 hp. and a speed of 759 km / h, not to mention the Me-262 and Me-163.

          In general, I think it is not right to belittle the enemy’s combat capabilities. Which, however, was defeated by Soviet soldiers.

          Well, how much the "Mustang" is an aircraft from the future, and how ideal it is, was shown by Ivan Kozhedub, who shot down two "allies" who were not helped by the "ideal" sighting equipment to see the Soviet ace, and who, apparently, believing in the impunity of the American dream , we decided to shoot him! laughing
          1. yehat
            yehat 14 June 2016 13: 03
            +4
            due to production problems, the ta-152 was actually piece-wise and therefore was primarily planned as a scout. In battles with mustangs, he would simply be lost due to quantity.
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. evgen1945
            evgen1945 14 June 2016 13: 35
            -7
            -kill 2 mustangs piloted by blacks .... And victory .. Negroes do not have to sit down for such a technique and everything will be ok. The Americans beat the Messer on the western front only because of their speed and vertical advantage. couldn’t bring down even several pilots on the western front !!!
            1. Idiot
              Idiot 14 June 2016 14: 09
              +6
              Quote: evgen1945
              2 Mustangs were shot down piloted by blacks .... And victory .. Negroes do not have to sit down for such a technique and everything will be ok. The Americans beat the Messer on the western front only because of their speed and vertical advantage. even shot down several pilots on the western front !!!


              It will be right to plant, but oh well. And you probably undeservingly offended blacks, it’s not my business either. But calling the Germans an ASSAM, you are absolutely right. They did not beat Russians in the east precisely because they could not beat allies in the west. Turn on the brain if it is not already damaged by Russophobia ...
              1. evgen1945
                evgen1945 14 June 2016 15: 08
                -2
                2 assa German warriors on the eastern front, deservedly shot down not a dozen aircraft, then transferred to the west-duck here in the west, one shot down 3 Americans in my opinion, the second not one !!! - Is that kindly not a Russophobe saying to you? And back to According to German pilots, not just one thing. Where it was easier to fight in the east or in the west, everyone spoke — in the east — for several reasons, namely, the training of Russian pilots was much weaker, the battles were at lower heights. Thirdly, the planes of the Americans were much faster and more perfect and it was much more difficult to shoot them down. And about the brain, go to the server or 2-take off, I’ll cram so much American into your Lavochkin that at the end of the evening you will break the monitor on your head
            2. Idiot
              Idiot 14 June 2016 14: 09
              +1
              Quote: evgen1945
              2 Mustangs were shot down piloted by blacks .... And victory .. Negroes do not have to sit down for such a technique and everything will be ok. The Americans beat the Messer on the western front only because of their speed and vertical advantage. even shot down several pilots on the western front !!!


              It will be right to plant, but oh well. And you probably undeservingly offended blacks, it’s not my business either. But calling the Germans an ASSAM, you are absolutely right. They did not beat Russians in the east precisely because they could not beat allies in the west. Turn on the brain if it is not already damaged by Russophobia ...
            3. 97110
              97110 14 June 2016 14: 34
              0
              Quote: evgen1945
              .No blacks do not have to plant

              Racist!! Atu him! Wait Trump with a bill woman will be outraged, they will begin to protest.
          4. tlauicol
            tlauicol 14 June 2016 14: 06
            -6
            yeah 40 new fokkers by spring 45g good

            Oleg just wrote that the Germans were engaged in garbage. when they come to their senses, the kidneys fell off
      4. Oskar1965
        Oskar1965 14 June 2016 09: 34
        +11
        Yes, figs there! Would have done like not figs in figs! Remember how I.N. Kozhedub shot down two "Mustangs" and in Korea they were hollowed out by their mother do not cry. The Germans were warriors, and the Americans fought only with a 3-fold superiority. Of course, the presence of a rear hemisphere radar with a voice informant and a K-14 computer sight became news to me. Honestly, I didn't know. But, air battles mainly took place at altitudes up to 3000 meters (where, by the way, our Lavochkin and Yakovlevs showed great enthusiasm :)), and the "Mustang", like the "Thunderbolt" at these heights during maneuver battles was heavy and awkward as it was created for escorting the B-17 at high altitudes, that's where he was "God". Although the Germans knocked them down a lot there, watch the movie "Red Tails" or "Pilots from Tuskegee". So, my friend, they would be beaten by ours at the expense of "times". And at the expense of their cool equipment, I will say that the Germans did not have it too feeble, but ... they still lost.
        1. tlauicol
          tlauicol 14 June 2016 09: 47
          +4
          the problem is that with the Yankees just would have to fight at THEIR: altitude! otherwise they ironed Moscow B-17-24-29 with impunity. Here, Soviet front-line fighters would be sleepy flies. And yes, with a 3 5-fold advantage - this is war and not football or chess
          1. Simpsonian
            Simpsonian 14 June 2016 10: 06
            +6
            They would have lost all of Europe very quickly, from England on the B-29 you wouldn’t get to Moscow very much,
            It would have been possible to plow British airfields with "strategists" at our own height.
            1. tlauicol
              tlauicol 14 June 2016 14: 40
              -1
              to plow with what? with three refueling to fly?
              1. Simpsonian
                Simpsonian 14 June 2016 15: 36
                0
                from Europe that they would lose in 3-4 weeks
                1. tlauicol
                  tlauicol 14 June 2016 15: 53
                  -1
                  Battle of Britain 2. with the same ending
                  1. Simpsonian
                    Simpsonian 14 June 2016 16: 01
                    +2
                    On densely populated by strategists airfields without shelters? The finale without pulling anyone would be different ... And then there would be a battle for Alaska fool
                    It was just that nobody in the USSR needed this. There are warmer countries in the south and they go there only by tourists, and not wash their boots. And they came to Western Europe after they came to us.
                    1. tlauicol
                      tlauicol 14 June 2016 16: 36
                      -1
                      Damn, how simple it is! why did the Germans not guess?

                      although no, they guessed once and swept the airfield near Poltava together with strategists.
                      about necessary, unnecessary Poles to the Finns, the Baltic states and Moldavians tell us - in 39-40 he washed the boots well there, no League of Nations held us back
                    2. Simpsonian
                      Simpsonian 14 June 2016 17: 20
                      +1
                      They were still not tightly forced, and you guessed that they had the USSR in the rear.

                      who asked the League of Nations to take all this away from us in 1919-20, and after Moldavians and the Baltic states - everything is clear with you ...
                    3. The comment was deleted.
                    4. tlauicol
                      tlauicol 14 June 2016 18: 01
                      -1
                      Pf, the Germans had allies in the rear, but they dared the Poltava airfield and did not interfere with any USSR
                      cool excuse
                    5. Simpsonian
                      Simpsonian 14 June 2016 18: 57
                      0
                      nobody especially tried - there was a reason for what

                      diagnosis
                    6. tlauicol
                      tlauicol 15 June 2016 04: 46
                      -2
                      didn’t try to protect the allies by inviting to your airfield? do you keep Soviet people (rulers, soldiers) completely for scum?

                      Yes, just could not
                    7. Simpsonian
                      Simpsonian 15 June 2016 05: 52
                      +4
                      Their airfields are usually obtained.

                      Now into the account of "these same":

                      Nobody invited them - they blatantly declared they flew in the airspace controlled by the USSR "whenever they wanted and where they wanted."
                      These "allies", in addition to Lend-Lease, were engaged in the supply of fuels and lubricants to the Reich, without which Hitler, who did not fit into the stock of motor oils allocated for the blitzkrieg, could not have fought as early as 1942
                      They decided to bomb the Romanian oil fields because they themselves started fighting in Europe and suffered losses from the Germans.

                      They chose the airfield themselves, the Germans imperceptibly following them found it themselves, no one led them.
                      They then got off easily - the planes were crashed on the ground, the crews weren’t injured, there were a lot of spare parts ... the B-17s, however, were not categorically delivered to the SSSG ... And neutral Switzerland had 200+ of them.
                    8. tlauicol
                      tlauicol 15 June 2016 06: 14
                      -3
                      Colonel Novikov, deputy head of the 1st department of the SMERSH Main Directorate, and already in the afternoon of June 22, reported to Stalin and Molotov, it was said: “... night fighters ... The anti-aircraft artillery was weak. The enemy's aviation had no losses. " This has never happened in England.

                      about "they came by themselves" - 9 months of negotiations and the obligations assumed by the Soviet side. you add so that we specially adjusted it
                    9. Simpsonian
                      Simpsonian 15 June 2016 07: 11
                      0
                      In England, there was, for example, Coventry ... And what else is he? to write? How many B-17 can be assembled from ...?

                      No, not on purpose ...

                      Are you sure you read everything in the previous comments?
            2. The comment was deleted.
  • yehat
    yehat 14 June 2016 11: 05
    +11
    are mistaken.
    B29 and B17 bombed infrastructure, and it was very deep in the rear and inaccessible to the Americans. And tactical bombing by strategists from a great height is very difficult
    in the end, everything would come down to the struggle of fighters, attack aircraft (P47, typhoon) and tactical bombers, and the USSR aviation kept these heights well.
    numerically, our air force was not inferior to the Americans, although the aircraft industry yes, inferior significantly. But the USSR had enough forces to cover from the air.
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 14 June 2016 12: 16
      +1
      And the factories were generally in the Urals ... wink
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 14 June 2016 17: 20
      -4
      Quote: yehat
      B29 and B17 bombed infrastructure, and it was very deep in the rear and inaccessible to the Americans. And tactical bombing by strategists from a great height is very difficult
      in the end, everything would come down to the struggle of fighters, attack aircraft (P47, typhoon) and tactical bombers, and the USSR aviation kept these heights well.

      You are wrong. Supporting troops is not reduced to "hovering over the battlefield" and "walking over the heads of the infantry", as they like to show in our films. Isolating the combat area and cutting off supplies are equally effective at disrupting offensives.
      While the tactical aviation of the USSR, the USA and Britain would have been cut over the battlefield with an unpredictable result, strategists would have frolicked in the rear of the Soviet troops. Small groups of 200-400 cars per communication center. Or to the airfield. The targets are large, areal, motionless. And we would work on them during the day - because we would have nothing to intercept the "boxes" with.
      And how to advance without supply?

      And I still don’t remember about the guided aviation munitions already developed by the Americans. It is enough to destroy 3-4 strategic bridges - and that's it, the front will rise.
      1. Operator
        Operator 14 June 2016 20: 22
        +4
        While American 200-400 bombers would train in carpet bombing of empty rear airfields, Soviet La-7 and IL-2, based on field airfields, would provide a breakthrough of American defense from the air up to the Atlantic coast and capture all who remained would be alive from 3 million expeditionary force groupings.

        How many transitions of mechanized corps of the Red Army were from the borders of the Soviet zone to the English Channel?
  • Alf
    Alf 14 June 2016 21: 17
    +1
    Quote: Tlauicol
    the problem is that with the Yankees just would have to fight at THEIR: altitude! otherwise they ironed Moscow B-17-24-29 with impunity.

    That's exactly for this purpose the IVS kept Kingcobra and Spitfire-9 in reserve.
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 15 June 2016 01: 05
      +1
      Another for this was the Yak-3P, La-7 and the development of PuVRD that would allow all this to endure
  • yehat
    yehat 15 June 2016 09: 50
    0
    let me ask, how could they fly to Moscow?
    he has a practical range of just over 6000 km
    divide in half, we get a radius of 3000 km of about 500 km - to build an order and navigation. Question - where from a distance of 2500 km could they fly to Moscow?
    name any point and I will answer that the USSR had the power to erase the base there into powder for a month.
    1. tlauicol
      tlauicol 15 June 2016 11: 59
      -3
      Yes, even Paris-Moscow.

      I have a question: a month of nuclear bombing of Soviet cities? good and this is only one Yankee airfield that you will be spudding for a month
      1. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 15 June 2016 12: 38
        0
        what year?

        Are you definitely not American? bully what did you hear about radiological bacteriological or chemical weapons?

        in terms of WMD, you should generally sit and not squeak, maybe even say thanks.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. nekot
        nekot 15 June 2016 17: 20
        +1
        Yeah, cast-iron cores)))) The pink dream of the childhood of the white-winged carp)))
  • evgen1945
    evgen1945 14 June 2016 12: 51
    -6
    Kozhedub shot down the Mustangs only because the pilots were de-b-ly. By the way, both are blacks. So you will never catch a Mustang on a bench in principle. It will lead you to the vertical and bite you
    1. Taoist
      Taoist 14 June 2016 13: 06
      +7
      The fact that morons is yes ... because at small and medium altitudes on the Mustang to compete with the Shop, you have to be a complete moron ...
    2. saturn.mmm
      saturn.mmm 14 June 2016 16: 12
      +3
      Quote: evgen1945
      Kozhedub shot down the Mustangs only because the pilots were de-b-ly. By the way, both blacks.

      Lucky Kozhedub, there were two morons in the U.S. Air Force, it was they who Kozhedub got.
  • evgen1945
    evgen1945 14 June 2016 12: 51
    -5
    Kozhedub shot down the Mustangs only because the pilots were de-b-ly. By the way, both are blacks. So you will never catch a Mustang on a bench in principle. It will lead you to the vertical and bite you
  • yehat
    yehat 14 June 2016 13: 05
    +8
    Mustangs had wings with a laminar profile, which made small heights unprofitable for them. If they did not bring down Kozhedub from the first call, at least 1 of them was already doomed. In addition, the Americans are not used to fighting with great overloads.
    1. evgen1945
      evgen1945 14 June 2016 13: 22
      -4
      Plus from me, he is doomed to be true, was not worth the rate Pobol leave and did not catch up .... but Niggaz We decided that it is an easy prey in the form of Focke-Wulf ... Decided for free Strube samol paid. One nigga died the second captured which Kozhedub seen a nigga this and was very surprised that he knocked him to the Russian La-73-b
      1. spravochnik
        spravochnik 14 June 2016 13: 42
        0
        Quote: evgen1945
        I was very surprised that I shot down his Russian on La-73-b

        And I would be very surprised. What kind of beast is this - La-73-b?
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. evgen1945
          evgen1945 14 June 2016 14: 00
          -2
          La-7 3B-three-gun)))) Do not be surprised, learn the hardware, although it is crookedly written but you can understand
  • spravochnik
    spravochnik 14 June 2016 13: 22
    +5
    watch the movie "Red Tails"

    We watched a rather funny film, with a bunch of technical mistakes in favor of the Americans.
  • Dark mol
    Dark mol 14 June 2016 10: 49
    +10
    Yeah))) And there were no military clashes on earth and in the sky between the USSR and the USA? ))) Nubisch! They were and were regular. In the sky above Berlin, it generally assumed the character of constant skirmishes. No advantage of the US Air Force over the USSR Air Force was revealed. When Kozhedub got it, in one departure he flunked 2 stupid Yankees. In the sky over Yugoslavia, the fighting was generally massive. Dozens of aircraft from both sides entered the battle. The result is their most common. No supermen were found in the sky.

    Just 7 years later, in the sky of Korea, the United States Air Force generally received specific stars. You don't know that either? ))) There, the United States twice stopped all flights for months. Well, you are an expert)))

    Clashes on the ground were ongoing. The largest clash involved 2 Soviet divisions in full. The Yankees attacked very treacherously and set up the Soviet tank counterattack under the fire of heavy anti-tank guns. In the first part of the battle, tank losses were very large. In the second, the personnel of American guns fled from positions. During the 3rd phase, the Stavka stopped the Soviet divisions. What saved the Yankees from annihilation.
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 14 June 2016 12: 20
      +6
      They stopped at the request in plain text ... After the Americans bombed, and Katyusha fired back, and it turned out that the MLRS was still better.
    2. spravochnik
      spravochnik 14 June 2016 13: 39
      +4
      Well, you are an expert)))


      And here is an expert. You don’t know the author. What is the main thing for him? To overthrow some frankly provocative or tendentious material, and then bathe in the rays of general attention. Perhaps the rating will take out.
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. evgen1945
      evgen1945 14 June 2016 14: 05
      -1
      In! -One grandfather talked about this, but where can I find the thread and read about these cases, it would be very informative, thanks for earlier. From me, plus !!!
    5. EvilLion
      EvilLion 14 June 2016 14: 15
      0
      In fact, such things are preempted in advance by drawing lines of demarcation and bringing to l / s.
      1. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 14 June 2016 19: 04
        +3
        In general, they "tried their hand".
      2. The comment was deleted.
  • Operator
    Operator 14 June 2016 10: 53
    +2
    US Mustangs and Thunderbolts from the Red Army would not have fought back. The only obstacle was nuclear weapons.

    To understand the situation on the European theater of war, there are statistics for June 1944 - May 1945: US troops on the Western Front used more artillery shells than the Red Army and the Wehrmacht combined on the Eastern Front.

    Artillery is the god of World War II.
    1. spravochnik
      spravochnik 14 June 2016 13: 49
      +5
      Quote: Operator

      To understand the situation on the European theater of war, there are statistics for June 1944 - May 1945: US troops on the Western Front used more artillery shells than the Red Army and the Wehrmacht combined on the Eastern Front.

      Artillery is the god of World War II.


      Which once again proves that the main thing is not the number of projectiles fired, but the effectiveness of artillery fire.
      1. Operator
        Operator 14 June 2016 14: 20
        0
        The main expense of artillery shells in the 1944-45 years in the American and Soviet armies was during many hours of artillery preparation for breaking through the enemy’s defense, when they fired on squares — the effectiveness was determined by the number of shells fired per km of front

        The number of Americans was multiple.
        1. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 17 June 2016 09: 08
          +1
          That atomic weapon, then artillery ... In 1945, the atomic bombs that the Americans had, they spent everything.
          The artillery of the USSR was the strongest, as was the army in general.
    2. yehat
      yehat 14 June 2016 15: 43
      +1
      why should the Americans fight back?
      find at least 1 american settlement in europe
      1. Operator
        Operator 14 June 2016 16: 28
        0
        In May 1945, the number of American expeditionary forces in Europe amounted to about 3 million people.
  • Hagakure
    Hagakure 14 June 2016 10: 53
    +5
    The recollection of a German soldier who fought on the Western Front: we thought here to meet people like the Russians, and we met timid gazelles ... something similar was told to me by my grandfather, a WWII veteran ...
  • Michael.
    Michael. 14 June 2016 11: 25
    +1
    Would bend.
  • Nehist
    Nehist 14 June 2016 11: 35
    +3
    But the US general considered differently.
  • Idiot
    Idiot 14 June 2016 11: 45
    +7
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    It is interesting to know the opinion of those who regret that the USSR did not get involved in the US war in 1945. Like "bent" the damned Americans with one left


    You are the only one, in my opinion, who regrets it. Be careful about the "damned amerikosov". They will not appreciate your sarcasm, they will accept it at face value and then goodbye to American citizenship ...
  • Boatsman_Palych
    Boatsman_Palych 14 June 2016 11: 50
    +10
    "It is interesting to know the opinion of those who regret that the USSR did not get involved in the US war in 1945. Like "bent" the damned Americans with one left

    The Soviet army would be faced with such a force, in comparison with which the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe would seem like a kindergarten "


    The only true opinion of a minor illiterate admirer of great America ...
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 14 June 2016 12: 23
      +1
      you need to take the right in quotes and then they will
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. evgen1945
      evgen1945 14 June 2016 12: 57
      -3
      Licked and immediately dipped in a threshing floor ...
    4. evgen1945
      evgen1945 14 June 2016 12: 57
      0
      Licked and immediately dipped in a threshing floor ...
      1. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 14 June 2016 13: 46
        0
        yon worth it ...
      2. The comment was deleted.
  • evgen1945
    evgen1945 14 June 2016 12: 48
    +2
    I don’t know about the strength, but one thing saved us ... regarding aviation, we somehow managed to bypass an milestone in aircraft construction from a tree and jump right into the jet era. If we continued to fly like the Americans on the propellers then there would simply be nothing to stop them !! our LA and YAK were simply not able to conduct battles at altitudes of more than 7-12 thousand meters. They would have been shot down like hens, and we didn’t have our other machines in principle. Therefore, ours assembled in Germany FW190-Dora, Messer, Kingcobra and sleeps, which were supplied to us in limited quantities for fighting at high altitudes. We simply didn’t have such equipment -Yes, and she did not need to judge the case then. M-71 Shvetsov could not bring to mind - they could not adjust the steps of the supercharger. Yes, and much more.
    1. complete zero
      complete zero 14 June 2016 14: 02
      +6
      the same is not entirely true dear .... despite the fact that the USSR really had problems in the production of modern (at that time internal combustion engines), the main thing was still NOT this, but the fact that the "binding" of our fighters was to strike aircraft precisely IL-2 was the main (LA) of that war ... and this pepelats flew low)))) Amers had a different picture-fighters were considered as escort fighters for "fortresses" (again, based on the heights) ... in general, YAK or aircraft, there were even more fighters in the truest sense of the word than P 51 (and even more so P47) ... "Shop" especially FN or 7, or the third Yakovlev ... at altitudes of 5-6 km ... quite could drive Mustangs and so on ... (and fighters did not fight higher)
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. evgen1945
        evgen1945 14 June 2016 14: 19
        -1
        well ... everything can be but ... they didn’t drive — and couldn’t — the Mustang would leave them — in criticism — in dive. And so, yes, that's right, the concept of fighting with us and they differed radically and at the same time ... coincided, YAK with us, the protection of attack aircraft near Mustang land, their bombers were built on top of them and cars were built. mainly the battles according to the concept of the 30s were supposed to be fought and the Germans had the same on the vertical - according to the results of the 1st World War. each side had its own doctrine. But one thing in common is the guards of attack bombers. By the way, I’m probably under certain conditions, I could probably drive it. Right now I read a veteran who flew off all the war on yaks, saying that the Yak 3 is an extremely high-speed machine at medium altitudes was. But fragile identity for overloads, however. The trouble is this. If only the Americans would have bought Spita for the mid-altitude battles from the British. And sleeping at all heights and the shop and yak and everything that we had on the verticals - horizons like a turtle God. Ours conducted training battles of Spitfire and our machines, the result was sad. La could still wrestle like Yak was a corpse.
        1. complete zero
          complete zero 14 June 2016 15: 00
          +1
          (plus for disclosing the topic) ... I heard about the competition between Yak and Spit, the opposite version ... a Frenchman from Normandy got Spit (and an experienced fighter) ... in principle, Yak did not have enough of the same altitude of the internal combustion engine to the level of an "Englishman" ( this trouble of our industry) there is nothing to be done about it ... but in general (to socialize) there was no such lag (or advantages) among the countries producing pepelatsa ... very often everything depended on the pilot. For me (and only for me) ... the best were the BF 109 and Spitfire 9 ... in my opinion the most BALANCED cars of those years ... (IMHO)
    2. yehat
      yehat 14 June 2016 15: 46
      0
      the problem was not in fine-tuning the engine and not in altitude.
      when they cannot even make a normal air filter for a tank engine, the problem is something else.
      1. complete zero
        complete zero 14 June 2016 18: 07
        0
        The Yak-3 is really a PIK fighter aircraft of the Country ... but there are (not so few) all sorts of BUT ... the first he practically did not fight (oh, in a year it would be like 1942)))), the second, this fighter was "tied "to his field ... (fuel supply) and therefore climb (up to 5 km from the ground), of course, he could ... just what could he do there? .... the Germans faced something like this in 1940 during the battle for England. .. thirdly ... (you were correctly pointed to the strength of the glider) ... 600 in a dive is the maximum (you can check it in the emulator there it is all realistic) ... well, and (as you understand) the height is 5-6 km- this is a completely different air environment compared to 1000 or 3000m ... that is, the behavior of the machine is very different ... now compare with the mechanization of the wing of the same 109 and our Yak (and in WB) this has an IMPORTANT value ... as well as OVERHEATING ICE - how ANY YAK suffered
    3. Proxima
      Proxima 14 June 2016 16: 08
      +1
      Quote: evgen1945
      If we continued to fly like the Americans on the propellers then there would simply be nothing to stop them !! our LA and YAK were simply not able to conduct battles at altitudes of more than 7-12 thousand meters. We simply didn’t have such equipment, and it wasn’t needed, judging by that.

      If air battles at a high altitude would occur more or less regularly on the Eastern Front, we would undoubtedly find a worthy answer. Take, for example, the modification of the Yak-9PD, which for a well-known reason, we did not massively develop. Serial samples of the Yak-9PD rose to a height of 13,5 km. Yes, and the MiG-3, which remained out of work due to its altitude, cannot be discounted either.
      1. complete zero
        complete zero 14 June 2016 18: 15
        +3
        Mig-3 ... it’s not the lot that remained, not only because of the altitude (in Moscow air defense it was used successfully and for a long time) but because of the very IL-2 (the attack aircraft was really needed) and the ICEs at Mig and Ila were made at the same factory (lacked power) well, and the difficulty of piloting (relative to the same Yak) high landing speed .... but overall Mig was an excellent fighter, in any case the Germans respected him very much
  • python2a
    python2a 14 June 2016 14: 52
    +3
    The American ground forces showed themselves "excellently" in the Ardennes, after which the Red Army urgently needed to launch an offensive to help out its allies. What are these powers?
    1. overb
      overb 14 June 2016 15: 22
      -7
      Quote: python2a
      US ground forces performed "excellent" in the Ardennes

      And what happened there so terrible? Did the Germans counterattack? So this is war, counterattacks happen in war.
      Quote: python2a
      after which the Red Army urgently needed to launch an offensive in order to bail out the allies.

      The Red Army did not need it at all. But the boss said "must" (according to the version of the Sovagyptrop, he asked). And it took. But it is very clear who is the boss. When the Poles asked at one time, they were quite logically sent through the forest, they say, they are not ready. And then suddenly they were magically ready.
      This case very well demonstrates all the "steepness" of the mustachioed katso. And there are a lot of other examples. But adherents prefer not to notice them, singing their mustachioed idol in every way.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 14 June 2016 17: 36
        -3
        Quote: overb
        The Red Army did not need it at all. But the boss said "must" (according to the version of the Sovagyptrop, he asked). And it took.

        Hehe hehe ... actually, actually mustachioed boss delayed the planned offensive for 3 days due to bad weather.

        The Wisło-Oderskaya was originally planned for January 9-12, 1945. This is evidenced by all the terms for the planning and transfer of equipment - it all started back in November 1944. The front-line plan of the operation was ready when the Ardennes had just begun — long before Churchill’s letter. The tank armies began to plan, without assault, to advance to the bridgeheads in late December - early January. By the time Churchill wrote his letter, everyone was sitting at the source waiting for the team. But the weather failed. And Stalin, in response to requests from the front commanders, ordered that the start of the operation be postponed for 2-3 days.

        But in Yalta, the IVS, in order to receive preferences in the post-war division of Europe, pretended that the pre-prepared operation was a hastily organized attack to help the Allies, such as the Samsonov-Rennenkampf attack in 1914. But the marshals and generals in the memoirs took the official point of view - do not go to them against the father of nations. smile

        In fact, no one from the end of December to the first week of January will push 30 armies into the bridgehead of 50x5 km - and wait until January 20.
      2. complete zero
        complete zero 14 June 2016 18: 19
        0
        (about the Poles who asked) ... in general (honestly) Poland should have been attracted (in Nuremberg) FOR ASSISTING the Nazi Germany in unleashing the Second World War (read Churchill at your leisure) there are very interesting affairs of the gentlemen of the Poles (in the year 1938). .so that the Poles would be silent in a rag
        1. overb
          overb 14 June 2016 18: 37
          -1
          Quote: complete zero
          am there are very interesting affairs of gentlemen of the Poles (in the year 1938) .. so that the Poles would be silent in a rag

          I think I understood your idea. In 1938 common affairs with the Germans were bad. In 1939 good (it is not clear how then to be with an ally of Britain; is it still good or is it bad?). In 1940, it is not clear which. In 1941 and further, bad again. Did I understand everything correctly?
          1. complete zero
            complete zero 15 June 2016 00: 53
            +4
            you may have understood me (and I’m not very) ... 1938 was, well, no less than the year 1939 (am I right?) ... and before that there was another year 1934 (well, damn the calendar) )) ... so this same pact of 1939. to us (Russia and earlier the Union) they poke everyone on the face ... the same Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth speech was concluded with Adolf FIVE YEARS earlier than Stalin .... about Britain (there is a jamb behind them) it was the proud Britons who bypassed the League of the nation ... signed a SEA contract with Hitler (in 1934) (and this was with the country under sanctions ... where it was ALLOWED to load shipyards of Germany in black and white ( sorry, I don’t remember the tonnage) in the amount of 6 to 10 (ratio for surface ships to England) and for submarines 1 to one ... (make a conclusion, dear) .. as for the Poles, the occupation of Czechoslovakia in 1938 .. by Germany. .DIRECT PARTICIPATION (and even what))) actually Poland ... well, the prohibition (which Churchill did not give a guarantee) to pass 150 divisions to help the government BENESHA ... that is, IT WAS POSSIBLE TO WAR AND DO NOT DEAR BEFORE 1945 .... PS-history should be learned from facts and not from the speculation of Western liberals and from the books of the cutter
            1. overb
              overb 16 June 2016 21: 58
              0
              Quote: full zero
              so this same pact of 1939. whom we (Russia and earlier the Union) poke in the face

              In fact, they poke not with the contract itself (if you like, use the synonym for the pact), but with its annexes.
              Quote: full zero
              where in black and white it was ALLOWED to load shipyards of Germany by surface ships (tonnage sorry I do not remember)

              The British built warships in Germany for themselves? This is a terrible crime, apparently.
              Quote: full zero
              well, the prohibition (which Churchill did not guarantee) of the admission of 150 divisions to help the BENESH government

              This nonsense about 150 divisions you tell grandmothers at the entrance. They will appreciate it.
              Quote: full zero
              THE WAR WAS POSSIBLE AND DO NOT BECOME UNTIL 1945

              Who exactly was supposed to stop the Germans in 1938? Are you personally Or Martians? Or mythical Soviet divisions?
              Why is it that the mustachioed katso suddenly so fond of the Czechs? His last "help" (to Spain) ended in the impoverishment of the country. And the "aid" to Mongolia ended with its Sovietization, massive political repressions and, in fact, the loss of its sovereignty. Do you think the Czechs did not know about this? They knew. Therefore, the Soviet "help" was not needed first of all by themselves.
              There was no one to stop him then. And there’s nothing at all, the salvation of drowning men, the work of the drowning men themselves. So they didn’t stop it.
              The rest is your imagination. Yours and "venerable Soviet historians."
              1. complete zero
                complete zero 17 June 2016 08: 26
                +1
                for whom they built for themselves (I, D, I, O, T, you are liberal) read carefully the ratio of surface ships of 6 to 10 (SIX GERMAN to 10 ENGLISH) this means that ENGLISH ALLOWED GERMANY TO START CONSTRUCTION OF THE Navy (AGAIN IT WASN'T OR OR BEFORE THE GIRAFFES?) .. do not go on writing further .. for you, at least lei in your eyes still cares for Russia ... Churchill read an oddity and whether you wrote it into the communists
                1. overb
                  overb 17 June 2016 10: 03
                  -2
                  Quote: complete zero
                  (And, D, And, Oh, T you're liberal)

                  Not only was she hysterical, not worn out. So also hamlo.
                  Of course, this is only in emergency situations. Communicate with this, just do not respect yourself.
                2. The comment was deleted.
        2. U-krop
          U-krop 17 June 2016 13: 45
          -3
          The USSR, too, could be attracted to the Nuremberg process for promoting the outbreak of war. so whose cow would mumble.
          1. Simpsonian
            Simpsonian 17 June 2016 13: 54
            0
            Which, and where?
    2. The comment was deleted.
  • Uncle Murzik
    Uncle Murzik 14 June 2016 15: 39
    +2
    In battles over the territory of China and North Korea, Soviet pilots shot down more than 1300 enemy aircraft, losing about 320 of their aircraft. Source and details: http://www.airaces.ru/sources/sovetskie-asy-korejjskojj-vojjny.htmlThat's how the Soviet aces fought
  • The comment was deleted.
  • papas-57
    papas-57 14 June 2016 16: 42
    +2
    "The Soviet army would be faced with such a force, in comparison with which the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe would seem like a kindergarten." And we would have drowned this power in the Atlantic Ocean. Need fewer Hollywood action movies to watch about the invincible American army. If there was no eastern front, England would have been crushed in half a year, and the Americans did not dare to land in Europe. Infantry and tanks are taking over the territory, not aircraft with aircraft carriers.
    1. complete zero
      complete zero 14 June 2016 18: 26
      -3
      well, let's just say ... the USA was superior to the USSR at sea and in the air (strategic aviation) .. and without that, winning the war against the USA would be very problematic (not out of love for the Americans, but for the sake of truth) ... and England ( especially the Navy and the RAF) showed that they were "not made with a finger" so guess what would have happened if, and so (not grateful) ... we were very lucky that the Anglo-Saxons in that war chose our side
      1. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 14 June 2016 19: 15
        +1
        They chose their own against Germany in the USSR
        1. complete zero
          complete zero 15 June 2016 01: 02
          -1
          it absolutely does not cancel their participation on our side
          1. Simpsonian
            Simpsonian 15 June 2016 02: 01
            +2
            They did not participate on our side ... Without deliveries, the Standard Oil Oil to the Wehrmacht fuel and lubricants the eastern front would cease to exist in 1942, together with the Reich.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. Operator
        Operator 14 June 2016 20: 37
        0
        In order for the Anglo-Saxons to choose the right side, the IVS had to work hard.
        1. overb
          overb 14 June 2016 20: 42
          -1
          Quote: Operator
          so that the Anglo-Saxons chose the right side, the IVS had to work hard.

          But is it that the imaginary choice before them seemed to be in 1941, while they themselves made the choice in 1939? Nothing annoying in dates?
          1. Operator
            Operator 15 June 2016 02: 07
            0
            Thanks to the IVS, the Anglo-Saxons had to choose twice: in 1939 they chose Germany (The strange war of the 1939-1940 years), in 1941 - the USSR (despite the Soviet-Finnish war).

            IVS in 1941 clearly realized the idea of ​​the Anglo-Saxons: "If Stalin wins, we will help Hitler; if Hitler wins, we will help Stalin."

            And after 1941, the Anglo-Saxons did not go backward - that was the idea of ​​the IVS.
            1. overb
              overb 15 June 2016 02: 50
              -1
              Quote: Operator
              Thanks to the IVS, the Anglo-Saxons had to choose twice: in 1939 they chose Germany (The strange war of the 1939-1940 years), in 1941 - the USSR (despite the Soviet-Finnish war).
              IVS in 1941 clearly realized the idea of ​​the Anglo-Saxons: "If Stalin wins, we will help Hitler; if Hitler wins, we will help Stalin."
              And after 1941, the Anglo-Saxons did not go backward - that was the idea of ​​the IVS.

              You should not miss medication as prescribed by your doctor.
              1. Operator
                Operator 15 June 2016 02: 56
                0
                You will be happy to fly from VO to your "Wehrmacht infantry tanks".
                1. overb
                  overb 15 June 2016 03: 10
                  -2
                  Quote: Operator
                  You will be happy to fly from VO to your "Wehrmacht infantry tanks".

                  How do you feel?
            2. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 15 June 2016 03: 08
              0
              They always had a move back (until August 1945), as did the gun on the "Archer" self-propelled gun of the wrong orientation. Simply because of their relatively safe geographic conditions.
              From 1938 everything went according to plan and the aggression of their foster Hitler was canalized by them to the East.
            3. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 15 June 2016 03: 08
              0
              They always had a move back (until August 1945), as did the gun on the "Archer" self-propelled gun of the wrong orientation. Simply because of their relatively safe geographic conditions.
              From 1938 everything went according to plan and the aggression of their foster Hitler was canalized by them to the East.
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 15 June 2016 02: 21
          0
          They chose their side back in 1938 in Munich, after which this war became inevitable. In 1939, the question was already only in the boundaries of its beginning and timing.
        4. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 15 June 2016 02: 21
          0
          They chose their side back in 1938 in Munich, after which this war became inevitable. In 1939, the question was already only in the boundaries of its beginning and timing.
        5. complete zero
          complete zero 15 June 2016 18: 10
          0
          hello you "did not participate"))) respected will not resist turning into Westerners-liberals rewriting history (this does not add "whists" to us) Romania (oil fields) Anglo-Saxons began to iron in my opinion from the year 1942-already it was US TO HELP (I I'm not talking about lend-lease) even for gold, but it was essential and necessary help for the USSR ... do not forget that such a FIGURE as Erwin Rommel never appeared on the eastern front (thanks to the same Anglo-Saxons) and the opening of the second front itself in the west -took the combat-ready German units ... for example, the best German squadron (52) after 1943 was thrown to the western front ... that you must agree it was a GOOD for us ... you should not rewrite history, dear (I repeat)
          1. Simpsonian
            Simpsonian 16 June 2016 09: 36
            0
            they didn’t throw her over but sent for reorganization, licking her wounds

            did not iron but rather flew to "bomb the desert"

            almost everything that was on the western and other fronts was "invalid teams", which had already received theirs in the east.
            1. complete zero
              complete zero 16 June 2016 15: 43
              -1
              Yes, not really?)))) and a hundred "fortresses" every day on the "Great Reich" is that "lick wounds" (normally so dudes licked)))))
              1. Simpsonian
                Simpsonian 17 June 2016 02: 41
                0
                you don’t need to beat into a bomb truck from afar; a hundred dumped Me-262, which does not need gasoline, as well as a fighter ace

                they put this 52 on crutches, or did she leave Russia in good health for reformation and recreation?
                1. complete zero
                  complete zero 17 June 2016 08: 30
                  0
                  you don’t need to hit a bomb carrier (from a distance) ... are you serious ????))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
                  )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
                2. Simpsonian
                  Simpsonian 17 June 2016 08: 50
                  0
                  This was done by simpler pilots on heavy twin-engine "fighter bombers" with a large-caliber usually 50-75mm Me-410 cannon, such an aircraft cannot conduct a maneuverable battle and an ace fighter pilot has nothing to do with it.
                3. complete zero
                  complete zero 17 June 2016 13: 01
                  0
                  Well, it’s necessary (in how))) - how many of these 410 were at the disposal of the Hans? (with a gulkin nose) ... attacked with what they had ... all the same 109 and 190 ... and bring down the Fortresses in BATCHES (by 50-100 pieces) covering each other (a solid curtain of fire) .. and even a fighter cover and Fri ... no, do you seriously believe that the Luftwaffe was in the west in the resort (like hookah girls’s hookahs?) And to shoot down a heavy bomber is COMPLICATED than a fighter when they GO BUILDING ... especially B17 or B24 is not for you 3 dB
                4. Simpsonian
                  Simpsonian 17 June 2016 13: 43
                  0
                  There were also similar aircraft and many converted Do-17s and other tactical bombers. "What they had" is only at the very beginning. For 2 months, many conventional FW-190s with enhanced armament and novice pilots were lost. Not from an escort. Because after the Kuban there was no one to lead them into battle, look there or arrange a "debriefing" and teach that after an attack on a heavy bomber, one must go down under it. They turned upwards, as if after an attack on a stationary ground target and when the speeds were compared, "hanging" were substituted by the gunner's fire.
                  And such a heavy "fighter" the size of a DB-3f simply carried this "box" B-17/24 with its big gun from afar. FW-190s were already "eating up" the loners and protecting these "snipers" from the escort when he appeared ...
  • i80186
    i80186 14 June 2016 18: 14
    +3
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    It is interesting to know the opinion of those who regret that the USSR did not get involved in the US war in 1945. Like "bent" the damned Americans with one left

    Super weapons, yes.

    The total combat losses of the Mustangs on the European theater of operations amounted to 2520 vehicles. Among the Luftwaffe pilots, the most successful fighters against the Mustangs were Wilhelm Steinman (12 shot down), Heinrich Bartels (11), Heinz Baer (10), Franz Schall (10), Wilhelm Hoffmann (10). Erich Hartmann, the most productive German fighter pilot, had seven shot down Mustangs.

    Reliable, unrivaled, with advanced radar and walkie-talkie.

    Big losses were suffered on "Black Friday" on June 1, 1945: of the 148 Mustangs that went on a raid on Osaka, 27 were lost (all due to technical problems or bad weather), 1 pilot died and another 24 were missing only one Japanese plane was shot down
  • Alekseev
    Alekseev 14 June 2016 18: 37
    +1
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    The Soviet army would face such a force, in comparison with which the Wehrmacht

    This pearl of the modern "sofa archangel" was not shared
    US politicians and military leaders in 1945 ...
    Despite the presence of a nuclear bomb and its visual demonstration on the Japanese, they believed that "they have not enough strength" to fight the "Soviets" directly.
    Although the Americans and the British had really very well technically equipped powerful armed forces.
    What to guess, history has already given examples: in 1950 in Korea they measured their power with the USSR and China, only recovering from the devastating wars on their territory.
    They could not eliminate the DPRK - the head still hurts. sorry not only already in the USA ... wink
    As for the Mustangs and Messers. Here the main role was played by the outstanding technical qualities of Ango-American aircraft, although no one denies the excellent qualities of the B-29, the same Mustang, Spitfire. Messers and Fokke-Wulfs were also very good cars.
    No wonder the Allied Air Force lost 115 thousand pilots over Germany.
    But ... "... all the American 'responses' were not original, yet they remained extremely effective. The Americans were simply seeking out numbers."
  • igoryok1984
    igoryok1984 14 June 2016 20: 15
    0
    Quote "The Soviet army would have faced such a force, in comparison with which the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe would seem like a kindergarten" What are you talking about! But the losses in less than a year from this "kindergarten" among the Americans were three times more than in 3,5 years of war with the Japanese. And for some reason, this force abandoned Operation Unthinkable - an attack on Soviet troops
    1. overb
      overb 14 June 2016 20: 33
      -2
      Quote: igoryok1984
      And for some reason, this force abandoned Operation Unthinkable - an attack on Soviet troops

      Not "Unthinkable", but "Uncomplicated".
      Not to the Soviet, but to Paraguayan.
      And not because there was little strength, but simply the monsoons blew in the wrong direction. Therefore, the caravels could not cross Atlanika.
      Lord, what nonsense are you writing.
      1. igoryok1984
        igoryok1984 18 June 2016 13: 58
        0
        Plan of Operation "The Unthinkable." Spring-Summer 1945 http://www.coldwar.ru/bases/operation-unthinkable.php
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 15 June 2016 00: 43
      0
      In Paraguayan - maybe.
      You write nonsense.
  • Dart2027
    Dart2027 14 June 2016 20: 22
    0
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    Like "bent" the damned Americans with one left

    Those who survived "Black Tuesday" in 1951 will tell you about this best.
  • LvKiller
    LvKiller 14 June 2016 20: 30
    0
    Another nonsense-kakunihhochuha ... It is a pity that the USSR strangled Japan, starting with the defeat of the Kwantung army in China, and did not allow this army to walk through the great light of democracy - mattress. People like you once again confirm the status of mattress, like the Empire of Lies. Lies, blatant lies, and nothing more. Anika-war.
    1. complete zero
      complete zero 15 June 2016 01: 06
      0
      this (alas) was not realistic in principle ... the Japanese army (that the ground that the Navy, the Air Force) were inferior to the United States and significantly
      1. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 15 June 2016 02: 27
        0
        As it were, the Americans could land quickly in India, together with the British to drive the Japanese out of Indochina, and then, along with the Chinese and the British, pile the Kwantung army from the south, but this was not so ...
  • Alf
    Alf 14 June 2016 20: 59
    +2
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    The Soviet army would face such a force, in comparison with which the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe would have seemed a kindergarten

    The Mustang and Thunderbolt escort fighters in guarding the Mitchells, Bostons and Marauders at a height of 2-3 thousand for tactical aviation would look especially "cool".
    4,5 tons of Mustang weight against 2,7 tons of Yak-3. Yankee luck would really be needed.
    “Merlin” (“little falcon”)

    Merlin the wizard.
    In terms of flight performance, the P-51D was undoubtedly the best fighter in World War II.

    You forgot to add-the best escort fighter.
    At low speeds, its monstrous torque threatened to lead off course and turn the plane over. Because of this, “Corsairs were forced to land on the side, around the circumference.

    They came to the aircraft carrier in a turn not because of the torque, but because of poor visibility because of the long hood. The influence of the turning moment in the Corsairs was offset by a 167 mm blotch on the right wing.
    High-speed strike aircraft, able to fend for itself in aerial combat.

    Only above 8 thousands.
    these very real cars remained buried under the dust of time.

    So why didn’t these superplanes come into service with US aviation? I’ll tell you a secret, they could not achieve stability in flight.
    1. Santa Fe
      14 June 2016 23: 06
      0
      Quote: Alf
      4,5 tons of Mustang vs 2,7 tons of YAK-3

      These numbers mean nothing without comparing the wing area and engine power.
      Quote: Alf
      Merlin the wizard.

      It's just you have been reading fairy tales

      And that motor was named after the bird
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merlin_(bird)
      Quote: Alf
      Only above 8 thousands.

      Just by your words
      Quote: Alf
      Let me tell you a secret, could not achieve stability in flight.

      And if the ingenious German designers could?
      1. Alf
        Alf 15 June 2016 20: 51
        +1
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        Quote: Alf
        4,5 tons of Mustang vs 2,7 tons of YAK-3
        These numbers mean nothing without comparing the wing area and engine power.

        Easily.
        P-47D. 2000 h.p. 5600 kg = 2,8 kg / hp.
        Yak-3. 1260 h.p. 2650 kg = 2.01 kg / hp.
        P-47D. 5600 kg per 28 m2 = 200 kg / m2.
        Yak-3. 2650 kg per 15 m2 = 176 kg / m2.
        Result.
        Turn time P-47D-27 30 sec.
        Turn radius Yak-3 21 sec.
        Rate of climb P-47D-27 8/4572 m
        Rate of climb Yak-3 4,5 / 5000.
  • Stas57
    Stas57 14 June 2016 22: 32
    0
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe

    oh, are these different things?
    1. tlauicol
      tlauicol 15 June 2016 04: 57
      -1
      But the SV and the Air Force are one and the same?
      1. Stas57
        Stas57 15 June 2016 10: 23
        0
        Quote: Tlauicol
        But the SV and the Air Force are one and the same?

        and where is CB, stick a finger?
        1. tlauicol
          tlauicol 15 June 2016 12: 00
          0
          !!! Wehrmacht !!! and the Luftwaffe - he had in mind SV and aviation, and not the armed forces in general
          1. Stas57
            Stas57 15 June 2016 12: 44
            0
            Quote: Tlauicol
            !!! Wehrmacht !!! and the Luftwaffe - he had in mind SV and aviation, and not the armed forces in general

            NE of the Germans is HEER
            The Wehrmacht is the Air Force, which includes Hr, Lw, KM
            in fact the phrase Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe illiterate.
            right HEER and LW
  • SklochPensioner
    SklochPensioner 21 June 2016 05: 06
    0
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    The Soviet army would face such a force, in comparison with which the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe would have seemed a kindergarten

    Somehow I skipped this article. But I can’t answer.
    This "power" of yours, my sweet one, sat quietly in the bushes from 1939 to 1944 (saved up strength?))).
    No attack on allies the Soviet leadership did not plan. All fans of tales like "what would happen if ..." have two problems: Understand and remember.
    It is quite possible that we will soon encounter your "such power"), because she: a) does not understand and b) does not remember.
  • Ustinov 055 055
    Ustinov 055 055 29 November 2016 09: 12
    0
    Well, well, you also say that in Korea, "American" aces defeated ours in a moment, many times overfulfilled the plan to destroy all kinds of Yankees
  • Lopatov
    Lopatov 14 June 2016 09: 35
    +5
    8)))))
    Do not know. They believe that their main fights took place at that time much to the west. Where the main forces of the Luftwaffe were concentrated.

    Did you remember teenagers below? The Germans were forced to call them under guns in January 1943. It was then that Kriegshilfseinsatz der deutschen Jugend bei der Luftwaffe appeared (Luftwaffe Youth Support Service)
    Teenagers 15-17 years old. Initially, it was auxiliary functions, but after a short time they had to be assigned to the guns.
    1. Stas57
      Stas57 14 June 2016 09: 42
      0
      Do not know. They believe that their main fights took place at that time much to the west. Where the main forces of the Luftwaffe were concentrated.


      quietly, quietly, well, let the patriots wallow in honey, and then fall into their feathers.
      Kuban and Kursk are, of course, terrible meat grinders; before the defeats of both sides there was still far
      1. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 14 June 2016 10: 09
        +2
        Now the liberals also question Kursk? Well, well ... May the "silver rain" fall over all of you.
        1. Stas57
          Stas57 14 June 2016 10: 29
          -1
          Quote: Simpsonian
          Now the liberals also question Kursk? Well, well ... May the "silver rain" fall over all of you.

          you put it in your cup and mouth, maybe it’s better?
          This is when we believed that the sky over Kusk and Kuban was destroyed by the Luftwaffe, are you my patriotic?
          near Kursk, both sides lost about 1600 aircraft, the meat grinder was big, scary, but the defeat of the Luftwaffe ...
          Kuban was a meat grinder, there was a victory for our pilots. but the defeat of the luftwaffe ....
          1. Simpsonian
            Simpsonian 14 June 2016 12: 27
            +2
            Mine is not Crassus ... When 30 silver coins accumulate on each, it will hurt.

            60% aces of the Luftwaffe is even more than half

            Near Kursk, the Germans no longer had air supremacy.
            1. evgen1945
              evgen1945 14 June 2016 15: 32
              0
              That scumbag, there was no domination? -No one was there .... yet ...
          2. The comment was deleted.
            1. Stas57
              Stas57 14 June 2016 12: 31
              -1
              Quote: Simpsonian
              Near Kursk, the Germans no longer had air supremacy

              what are you saying, that is, we are not already talking about defeat?
              Now about the lack of superiority?
              Well then on you on shoulder straps.





              luftwaffe when there was no longer air supremacy. methodically, day after day raids on the 159 TBR, taking out its materiel, it comes to the point that the Germans shoot wagons and haystacks with impunity on a shaver.

              read yellow with from 10 to 8 evenings a constant bombardment of lost dominance of backlashes


              from 8 up to an hour a continuous raid of aircraft with heavy losses in our ranks.
              team hiding from aviation in the forest
              1. Simpsonian
                Simpsonian 14 June 2016 12: 34
                0
                you respond too quickly without thinking ...

                Over Kuban there was a rout and loss of superiority. This does not mean that the backlashes did not fly at all.
                1. Stas57
                  Stas57 14 June 2016 12: 50
                  -3
                  Over Kuban there was a rout and loss of superiority. This does not mean that the backlashes did not fly at all.

                  confuse Kuban with Kursk, it happens. need to read more, not think about liberals

                  Near Kursk, the Germans no longer had air supremacy.

                  on you a cherry on a cake, in a cup with a silver rain


                  on. and then suddenly you can’t get out of paper
                  In connection with the continuous impact of the anti-tank and bomber aircraft of the enemy on the battle formations of the corps units, in the complete absence of air cover from our fighter aviation and the lack of anti-aircraft weapons of a part of the corps, during the 20.07.43 day in the Ilyinskoye area they lost from the enemy’s aircraft a burnt T-34-13, T-70-3, T-60-2, SU-122-2, SU-76-1, destroyed -34-9, killed 22 people, wounded - 43 people
                  1. Simpsonian
                    Simpsonian 14 June 2016 12: 59
                    0
                    You confuse this - the defeat and loss of air superiority among the Germans was over Kubnya, of armored forces near Kursk.

                    And how do "anti-aircraft weapons of the corps" relate to the Air Force?

                    The fact that it does not go down the throats and suturing, you get a good enema ...
                  2. Stas57
                    Stas57 14 June 2016 13: 03
                    -2
                    Quote: Simpsonian
                    You confuse this - the defeat and loss of air superiority among the Germans was over Kubnya, of armored forces near Kursk.

                    The fact that it does not go down the throats and suturing, you get a good enema ...

                    drank it?
                    what tanks when it comes to aviation?


                    I knew that you won’t read the whole document
                    And how do "anti-aircraft weapons of the corps" relate to the Air Force?

                    once again, it didn’t come from the first? Do liberals see in the eyes of the world?
                    in the complete absence of air cover from our fighter aircraft
                  3. Simpsonian
                    Simpsonian 14 June 2016 13: 54
                    +1
                    you are very stupidly trolling on those topics for which you are being punished even now (or already now).

                    Well, there were no fighters there - they flew ... the rudel flew until the end of the war.

                    Army anti-aircraft guns that were supposed to be constantly with the troops and could not fly anywhere, where were they?
              2. EvilLion
                EvilLion 14 June 2016 14: 49
                0
                It seems to me that the commander needed to be shot, how can one and a half dozen of medium tanks and self-propelled guns be burned at all? Despite the fact that it is unrealistic to destroy a tank with a fighter or attack aircraft, it’s even difficult to get there.
              3. Stas57
                Stas57 14 June 2016 18: 03
                -2


                Quote: EvilLion
                It seems to me that the commander needed to be shot, how can one and a half dozen of medium tanks and self-propelled guns be burned at all? Despite the fact that it is unrealistic to destroy a tank with a fighter or attack aircraft, it’s even difficult to get there.

                In pieces with guns, U88, etc.

                Semyon Pavlovich Khaidukov, a native of the peasant family of the former Vyatka province, in 1919, an 18-year-old youth volunteered for the Red Army. From the front in 1920, he was sent to Petrograd to study on the newly created armored courses. Released by the tank commander, he soon as one of the most capable tankers was promoted to the position of commander of a tank company. Many years of military service made him an experienced commander and educator of young tankmen and motorized rifles. In heavy battles during the Finnish military events 1939 / 1940. he proved himself as a skilled commander and courageous officer. He was awarded the Order of the Red Banner. The Great Patriotic War found him in the position of chief of staff of a motorized rifle regiment.

                He died while liberating the town of Ezerische, the Belarusian region.
                died of wounds
                Date of disposal of 20.12.1943
                The primary burial place of the Byelorussian SSR, Vitebsk region., Mekhovsky district, with. Jezerischi, 15 m east of the club, square
          3. Warrior2015
            Warrior2015 15 June 2016 00: 49
            0
            Quote: Simpsonian
            Over Kuban there was a rout and loss of superiority. This does not mean that the backlashes did not fly at all.

            The problem is that it was Soviet propaganda that put it this way. The reality was, hmm, very, very different. No equal logging took place over the Kuban, for the first time we were able to at least somehow oppose it, but the losses were enormous. Kursk is almost the same. It’s just that Germany has become very short of pilots, because huge resources began to devour the Mediterranean. Do not tell me, there in the midst of the Battle of Kursk something happened in Sicily, no? (for some reason, the Allies do not shout about the fact that they saved the Russians - as is usually presented regarding Ardennes).
            1. overb
              overb 15 June 2016 01: 40
              0
              Quote: Warrior2015
              Do not tell me, there in the midst of the Battle of Kursk something happened in Sicily, no? (for some reason, the Allies do not shout about the fact that they saved the Russians - as is usually presented regarding Ardennes).

              At least the SS Panzer Corps, because of the Allied landing in Sicily, the Germans did not enter the battle of Kursk. And this is a very, very strong power. It is not known how it would end there if introduced.
            2. Operator
              Operator 15 June 2016 02: 29
              0
              Is it possible that the Germans in 1943 already transferred the entire SS tank corps to Sicily from Kursk, and of course you know its number and name?

              How did I forget the epoch-making Sicilian tank battle laughing
            3. overb
              overb 15 June 2016 02: 47
              0
              Quote: Operator
              Is it possible that the Germans in 1943 already transferred the entire SS tank corps to Sicily from Kursk, and of course you know its number and name?

              I know a lot of things. But I’m not an assistant to the hamster mustaches. Inet to help you. At the same time, pull up the materiel.
            4. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 15 June 2016 03: 21
              0
              ... and then it brought you to the emergency !? wink
            5. complete zero
              complete zero 15 June 2016 18: 23
              -1
              do not belittle the merits of the allies (no matter how much you like them), I also "do not breathe love" for the Westerners ... nevertheless, we must recognize their not small contribution to the defeat of Germany ... or you do not care if you would have laid another five million lives our soldiers?
            6. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 16 June 2016 09: 25
              0
              they put more simply by supplying the Nazis something without which they would give up immediately after the blitzkrieg, which was a blitzkrieg due to limited resources
            7. complete zero
              complete zero 16 June 2016 15: 58
              0
              Yes, I really dispute this ... but take as an example the Ploiesti bombardment (by 1942 ... the hardest for the USSR) Germany felt a shortage of fuel (is this not help?) ... and landliz (to hell with them with airplanes) ... They were eating GRAVITOR, penicillin (other drugs), tractors and trucks (tungsten, aluminum, etc.) ... our half of the country was under Hitler, where did all this take? ... Yes, the war in Africa took Hitler’s strength. .. Bismarck read what he prophesied for Germany in the event of a war on two fronts ... I don’t understand what seems to be normal adequate people .. beginning to distort history like HOW do the Western liberals
            8. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 17 June 2016 02: 50
              0
              What are you doing now? This is not help, they sold fuels and lubricants there more. Ploiesti was bombed in 1944 before the Soviet troops occupied it, and when they themselves finally landed in Europe ...
              More tungsten was supplied to Hitler for the Panther sabot "bolts". Mongolia sent more food.
              Without supplies, Standard Oil from 1942, the Wehrmacht from mobile units would have remained with some Hungarian hussars and Finnish skiers (in winter). How much would such an army have pulled against the Red Army with tanks and aircraft? Skiers would not even come in handy ... And the USSR Lendlis which in the mass went only in 1943.
  • Simpsonian
    Simpsonian 15 June 2016 01: 53
    0
    The problem is that American propaganda is trying to put things differently, but in English about the Kuban it is extremely difficult to find something, as if it did not exist (in German it is). bully
  • Simpsonian
    Simpsonian 15 June 2016 01: 53
    0
    The problem is that American propaganda is trying to put things differently, but in English about the Kuban it is extremely difficult to find something, as if it did not exist (in German it is). bully
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Simpsonian
    Simpsonian 15 June 2016 02: 45
    0
    It’s very interesting how the tank corps of bad boys from the SS began to be flown to Sicily from Kursk — quickly by air, and tanks a week later from the bottom?

    Rather, the Americans took advantage of the excessive weakness already weakened after the Kuban defeat in the area for the sake of the Kursk LGBTWAFFE.

    If introduced, then most likely the second Stalingrad.
  • Operator
    Operator 15 June 2016 03: 14
    0
    The French-British overb understands a lot about perversions - it was not the mythical SS Panzer Corps that was transferred to Sicily, but only one single so-called a parachute-tank division, and even then from southern France (armed, presumably captured French tanks), where it was cooled idle.

    From near Kursk to Italy (not to Sicily), without tanks, the remnants of the SS "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler" division were transferred to reorganization. In November 1943, the replenished division was sent (surprise) not to the local Italian, but to the Eastern Front.

    In general, overb is lying and does not blush.
  • overb
    overb 15 June 2016 03: 29
    0
    Quote: Operator
    In general, overb is lying and does not blush.

    1. Learn Russian. I understand that it is not native to you, so there are obvious problems with understanding what is written in Russian. If you can not understand the first time, re-read it again. And then a few more times. Someday, understand.
    2. Continue your research. Since the attack on Vika, nothing happened.
  • sivuch
    sivuch 15 June 2016 09: 15
    +2
    Nevertheless, a convincing request to indicate which particular corps, when and in what composition was transferred
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Idiot
    Idiot 15 June 2016 19: 54
    0
    Quote: Stas57
    Luftwaffe, when there was no longer dominance in the air. methodically, day after day raids on 159 TBR, taking out its materiel, it comes to the point that the Germans shoot wagons and haystacks with impunity on a shaver.


    Normal combat work. You might think our front-line aviation did not do the same. Maybe that's why they lost the war because they shot at haystacks, and not at the enemy ...
  • BMP-2
    BMP-2 14 June 2016 11: 07
    +1
    Quote: Simpsonian
    Now the liberals also question Kursk? Well, well ... May the "silver rain" fall over all of you.


    I think that the "golden rain" will be enough for them! laughing
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 14 June 2016 12: 35
      -2
      Mmmm .... there was such a radio station. bully
      1. BMP-2
        BMP-2 14 June 2016 17: 36
        0
        No, goldenwater is not a station, it is the result of natural needs, so to speak. lol
  • Uncle Murzik
    Uncle Murzik 15 June 2016 08: 33
    0
    On this day, almost all of our best aces of this war won aerial victories: the commander of the 196th IAP, Lieutenant Colonel Yevgeny Pepelyaev, guard captains Sergei Kramarenko, Serafim Subbotin and Grigory Ges, Art. Lieutenants Boris Abakumov and others. 13 "flying fortresses" and 6 enemy fighters shot down our valiant pilots in that battle. In the battle, 3 Soviet fighters were damaged, but all of them were able to land safely at their airfields. The defeat of the American air force was appalling; public opinion in the United States was shocked by such an "unsportsmanlike score" ... This is how our aces of amers who allegedly defeated the "Luftwaffe" were beaten!
  • Simpsonian
    Simpsonian 14 June 2016 10: 11
    -2
    Hitler youth are not put on fighter planes.
    Incidentally, many fought on jet messers. Vlasovites.
    1. Stirbjorn
      Stirbjorn 14 June 2016 10: 31
      +1
      Quote: Simpsonian
      By the way, many Vlasov fighters fought on jet messers.

      actually it was a piece of goods (jet messers)
      1. Dark mol
        Dark mol 14 June 2016 11: 12
        +6
        Only Me262 1400 pieces were released, almost all took part in the battles.
        1. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 14 June 2016 12: 38
          +1
          Not at all, only 300. There were even problems with synthetic kerosene. And with the pilots - the Vlasovites also flew at them too.
          Officially, this Messer was in service only with the Luftwaffe and the ROA
          1. Simpsonian
            Simpsonian 14 June 2016 13: 06
            +1
            In the sense, kerosene was for 300. 107 shot down
            And each shot down ~ 10 bombers. Well, just spitting on an escort with an advantage in speed under 180km / h. Losses from side gunners were sometimes incurred, but more often they were waited for when landing at the airfield. Just a completely different generation ...
            They had an advantage at medium and high altitudes. On the Soviet front, it was as if out of place and massively applied only a couple of times. Once during Bagration and second / third at the very end in the Berlin operation, on the Oder.
            1. EvilLion
              EvilLion 14 June 2016 14: 52
              -1
              Nonsense, they shot down more percent on the 20, and to really shoot down a bomber was only by gouging the cockpit, or sawing it for a long time, but it was very problematic in the head-on because of the huge speed on the first reactive ones.
              1. Simpsonian
                Simpsonian 14 June 2016 15: 43
                0
                200 percent and almost no loss. Especially when they switched to NAR salvoes at dense "boxes" from behind from distances where the gunners could not reach.
          2. Bayonet
            Bayonet 14 June 2016 14: 27
            +2
            Quote: Simpsonian
            There were even problems with synthetic kerosene.

            Actually, the Me-262 used diesel j2. When starting gasoline. Engine control _ still that hemorrhoids! One of the main problems in the development of pilots Me 262 was the high sensitivity of the Jumo 004B engine to the fuel supply. The throttle should be moved very slowly to 6000 rpm, when the engine automatically switched from starting fuel - B4 gasoline to diesel - J2, after which the rpm increased to 8000. The speed was reduced to 5000 when removing the blocks from the chassis wheels and increased to 7000 at the start of the run. During the take-off, the speed was increased to 8000 - the necessary minimum for the flight. A sharp movement of the throttle led to engine failure. It was necessary to install an additional fuel supply regulator, which controlled the flow regardless of the position of the throttle at revolutions of more than 6000 per minute. But then this regulator was adapted to control fuel supply over the entire speed range at any position of the ore. This regulator ensured the necessary engine operation and precise speed control, depending on the installation of the ore.
            1. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 14 June 2016 15: 56
              -2
              Maybe even on birch tar? And started on propane?
              Quote: Bayonet
              It was necessary to install an additional fuel supply regulator, which controlled the flow regardless of the position of the throttle at revolutions of more than 6000 per minute.
              even the piston engines were computerized and "self-driving".
              1. Bayonet
                Bayonet 14 June 2016 17: 58
                0
                [quote = Simpsonian] Maybe even on birch tar? And started on propane?
                I advise you not to shine with "humor", but to read the relevant literature!
                hi
                1. Simpsonian
                  Simpsonian 14 June 2016 19: 21
                  -1
                  I advise you not to "shine" and read to you. Why did he start on gasoline and how much was needed?
                  Candles to warm? lol
                2. Bayonet
                  Bayonet 14 June 2016 19: 47
                  0
                  Quote: Simpsonian
                  . Why did he start up on gas and how much was needed?

                  Well read, if you yourself aren’t enough to find the mind!
                  A feature of the Jumo 004B engine was a dual-fuel system. The engine was started using a two-stroke RBA / S10 Riedel piston engine running on B4 gasoline. This fuel was used in the turbojet engine, but only to start it. Only after reaching 6000 rpm, the engine automatically switched to diesel fuel J2 (diesel oil or kerosene), after which the rpm increased to 8000 per minute. When the turbine was spinning up, the engine control lever (throttle) should be moved very smoothly. Otherwise, there was a high probability of engine fire.
                  The engine consists of an eight-stage axial compressor, six combustion chambers, a single-stage turbine mounted on the same shaft as the compressor, and a jet nozzle regulated by the central body (cone). Each compressor stage is formed by fixed guiding devices and rotating disks with blades. In the combustion chambers, there is one nozzle injecting diesel fuel (kerosene with a density of 0,81-0,85 kg / l) towards the air flow. To ignite the mixture, a spark plug is used, which turns off after the start of combustion. The products of fuel combustion through the annular collector enter the nozzle apparatus of the turbine, bringing it into rotation. The engine design, starting from the section of the combustion chambers and to the nozzle edge, consists of two circuits: external and internal with double walls, between which cooling air passes. The nozzle apparatus and turbine blades are cooled by air taken from one of the compressor stages.
                  http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/me262a.html
                3. The comment was deleted.
                4. Simpsonian
                  Simpsonian 15 June 2016 00: 31
                  0
                  Uma, you don’t have enough to understand that you are not the only one reading wikipedia (with errors). Engines from mopeds, of course, run on gasoline. Kerosene is not classified as a diesel engine.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  • Imperialkolorad
    Imperialkolorad 14 June 2016 10: 08
    +2
    Quote: EvilLion
    Do the Luftwaffe themselves know about this?

    The Luftwaffe just knew in their own skin, it is strange that for you this is news.
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 14 June 2016 10: 14
      -1
      Maybe he’s just from the USA, like the author of the article?
  • Mairos
    Mairos 14 June 2016 12: 40
    0
    They know. They also know how to read statistics and count losses.
  • bazalt16
    bazalt16 14 June 2016 12: 52
    +4
    The article looks more like an advertisement for the American military-industrial complex. It is stupid to blame the Germans for "incapacities" of a technical nature. They had enough ideas. They did not have enough time, resources, and trained pilots because of the war on the 2nd front
  • Petrik66
    Petrik66 14 June 2016 09: 34
    +5
    And how do you explain the defeat of our Air Force in the early days of the Kursk battle? Our aircraft suffered losses of 6: 1, and 5: 1, respectively, on the northern and southern faces of the ledge. German aviation stopped the counterattack of our tank units and made it possible for the Germans to avoid encircling the northern group of the northern German group. It seems to me that you got a little excited. Here, all the same, the level of knowledge of the history of the Second World War is higher than on ordinary forums and campaigns do not pass.
    1. Nikita Gromov
      Nikita Gromov 14 June 2016 10: 12
      +1
      To fight on equal terms with the enemy, the Anglo-Saxons have always avoided. All their victories, only at the expense of numerical advantage, technique, cunning and resourcefulness. Truth and stubbornness they do not take. But to reveal their "strength" and "might" in front of the enemy, exhausted on two fronts - they are masters.
      1. Bayonet
        Bayonet 14 June 2016 14: 32
        +2
        Quote: Nikita Gromov
        All their victories, only due to numerical advantage, technology, cunning and resourcefulness.

        It can be said in another way. They avoided unnecessary losses, if the result can be achieved differently.
        "And as one we will die fighting for this ..." - not their method.
      2. complete zero
        complete zero 14 June 2016 18: 41
        +1
        and cunning and resourcefulness is actually what ???? (for me it’s an element of skill and tactics, no matter how?))))) .. regarding their combat effectiveness (or NOT fighting capacity) well, look at the balance of forces (air) in the Battle of Britain in 1940?
    2. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 14 June 2016 10: 17
      +1
      Do not poke your fingers, colleague. The Germans, who were covering themselves with anti-aircraft guns, stopped the aircraft to help the army.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • tlauicol
    tlauicol 14 June 2016 09: 35
    +1
    The defeat is Cannes or Tsushima, when the loss ratio is 1:10 or 1: 100.

    What about the Kuban? There is no smell of defeat there. A win with a bargain is good if one to one, the Verdun meat grinder in the air, not a rout
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 14 June 2016 10: 22
      +4
      1 to 2 with a superiority of 3,5 to 1, and these losses had consequences for the Germans worse than Stalingrad

      Before that, the Luftwaffe was simply "king of the hill", and the USSR was losing a lot of young green pilots.

      After the Kuban air battle, the backlashes never recovered - frames decided everything.
    2. yehat
      yehat 14 June 2016 11: 07
      +4
      Well, if you look differently? Our Air Force had a high number, the training of pilots was better for the Germans, the cost of most planes for the Germans was several times higher. Exchange 1 to XNUMX was beneficial to the aviation of the USSR and in fact was a rout in the strategic plane.
      1. complete zero
        complete zero 14 June 2016 18: 47
        0
        training of pilots of the Luftwaffe ... it was better if we talk about the pilots of the MIDDLE level .. our pilots-aces were no worse ... and the very flight skills of such pilots of the Red Army as BP SAFONOV or Pokryshkin (this is generally a genius) or Ivan Kozhedub. .. were perhaps even higher than that of the German "experts" ... and the situation with mid-level pilots by the end of 1943 and early 1944 evened out
  • yehat
    yehat 14 June 2016 10: 21
    +10
    Well, why do you yourself answer nonsense with nonsense ???
    the Luftwaffe was not defeated over Kuban, there we were not the first to give the Germans in the organization of the air war - and both sides suffered serious losses
    however, only in the year 44 was the reorganization of the Air Force based on experience, especially the Kuban and Stalingrad,
    based on the supply of communications and aluminum under the Lend Lease, the Air Force led to an efficiency comparable to the Luftwaffe.

    ps article: the US crushed not so much qualitatively as quantitatively. quite often during b-17 bombing raids on 1 German fighter there were 3-8 cover fighters, mostly Mustangs. And with this balance of forces and with approximately equal performance characteristics, even the ace was very difficult to survive.
    The FW-190D did not have such a high-quality compressor as the Mustang, but the injection system gave it similar power for 10-15 minutes of battle, while it was more maneuverable, turned better at critical angles, was better armed (guns!) And better armored.
    P47 was exclusively a boom-zoom fighter. In maneuverable combat, due to weight, he took only quantity. A huge plus of the Americans was the fuel supply and range, which allowed them to occupy a favorable position and fly out in large groups. So the quality superiority of the USA, although it was, was very insignificant.
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 14 June 2016 10: 27
      0
      Something I did not hear that imported motors were in Ilah Yak and La, and this is the main thing on the plane (for those for whom the main thing is not the toilet) ... In the Mustangs, there were English Merlin.

      They also made fun of the rest.
      1. Santa Fe
        14 June 2016 10: 31
        0
        Quote: Simpsonian
        I didn’t hear that Ilah Yaki and La had imported engines,

        Why did they stand

        Soviet aviation engine M-105 (all Elah, Yaki) - is an upgrade of the engine M-100 - Hispano-Suiza 12Y licensed engine
        1. kugelblitz
          kugelblitz 14 June 2016 10: 56
          +6
          And Gnome-Ron, and Bristol, and so on ... only these same engines were licensed from each other by almost all engine manufacturers. Like let's say the star-shaped BMW was a licensee to Wright. Enough can?
          By the way, from the old Spanish-Suiza there, only the block remained on the go, since forcing engines is a replacement for the piston group, crankshaft, and often the alteration of the cooling system.
        2. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 14 June 2016 13: 15
          0
          This is an upgrade and not a stupidly purchased English engine in the P-51 Mustang ...

          Could simply silently agree that the main thing for you is the toilet. Tupalev by the way deeply joked about this laughing
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5Hrvza9FkM
          that’s all your perversion in a nutshell.

          They also made a good joke about the "pride of the American Air Force, the British Harrier" in that episode. laughing
          1. complete zero
            complete zero 14 June 2016 18: 57
            0
            and to a hundred those in vain scold the "ferret" ... the pepelats was quite capable of fighting
            1. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 14 June 2016 19: 25
              0
              you do not understand the quote ...
            2. The comment was deleted.
        3. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 14 June 2016 13: 15
          0
          This is an upgrade and not a stupidly purchased English engine in the P-51 Mustang ...

          Could simply silently agree that the main thing for you is the toilet. Tupalev by the way deeply joked about this laughing
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5Hrvza9FkM
          that’s all your perversion in a nutshell.

          They also made a very good joke about the "pride of the American Air Force, the British Harrier" laughing
      2. yehat
        yehat 14 June 2016 12: 54
        +2
        what nafig imported motors? what are you talking about?
        what nafig merlins in mustangs ???? there the carburetor was substantially redesigned and it was already a different engine, without English flaws.
        R-51A generally had an engine unrelated to merlin
        Finally, the P-51 was very different P51D, K, B, H are markedly different.
        Everyone compares with the P-51H and gives its equipment, but in reality the majority were analogues of B and D, a little F. And you need to compare with them, but it is more modest than described in the article.
        1. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 14 June 2016 13: 16
          0
          and you too ... remade the English to the Americans to order.
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. Bayonet
          Bayonet 14 June 2016 20: 48
          +1
          Quote: yehat
          what nafig imported motors?

          The Mustang / Rolls-Royce combination was so successful that it became standard on all Mustang variants. To increase engine output, the US-based Packard Car Company began licensing the Merlin.
          Quote: yehat
          R-51A generally had an engine unrelated to merlin

          On the P-51A stood Allison V-1710-81
          P-51B Packard Merlin V-1650-3
          P-51D Rolls-Royce (Packard) Merlin V-1650-7
          P-51A (G, J) Packard Merlin V-1650-7
          P-51H Packard Merlin V-1650-9
      3. complete zero
        complete zero 14 June 2016 18: 54
        0
        Yes, it’s impossible to judge so categorically about technology (in particular, aviation) that ICE is definitely the main thing ... where then can we get wing mechanization (or is it not important in your opinion?) ... well, or manufacturability of production, uniformity, etc.?
  • evgen1945
    evgen1945 14 June 2016 12: 38
    -3
    There was no defeat near the Kuban — Everyone suffered huge losses then — Read Pokryshkkin. If there was a defeat, then who ironed our troops near Kursk from morning to evening? After all, in some areas our aviation was not visible for several days
  • evgen1945
    evgen1945 14 June 2016 12: 38
    -1
    There was no defeat near the Kuban — Everyone suffered huge losses then — Read Pokryshkkin. If there was a defeat, then who ironed our troops near Kursk from morning to evening? After all, in some areas our aviation was not visible for several days
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 14 June 2016 13: 22
      0
      Why not immediately hartmann?

      Well, the Germans could create in some areas a short-term superiority of forces, there was no continuous radar field then
    2. The comment was deleted.
  • 2ez
    2ez 19 August 2016 16: 46
    0
    And this is absolutely true !!! And let them talk about any tank aircraft, our people won the war !!! And eternal memory to all heroes!
  • bocsman
    bocsman 14 June 2016 06: 44
    +12
    Yes, well done. But only they for some reason, with all the bells and whistles in technology, did not have a single ace like Kozhedub, Pokryshkin, Safonov, etc. Those who beat up without any technical bells and whistles twice as many of their best pilots. And Safonov in general on the I-16 and in the English "pterodactle" "Kitihoke"!
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 14 June 2016 07: 20
      +14
      What other fellows? The first YB-35s were piston-propelled, the YB-49 of which came out 4 years after the end of the war, by installing captured German Allison J35s. Of the "jet wunderwaffe" the British and Americans had nothing serious against the Me-262 and 163. Therefore, "Gloucesters" and a similar American vacuum cleaner, which was even worse, namely that it was "put on display" to raise the morale of the troops, but did not take part in the battles with the Germans!
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 14 June 2016 09: 01
          +3
          This is the first flight, not combat readiness.

          Prior to receiving the captured German, no one had an axial WFD, if this indicates something ...
          1. Santa Fe
            14 June 2016 09: 38
            0
            Quote: Simpsonian
            This is the first flight, not combat readiness.

            In which year did the YB-49 reach combat readiness?
            1. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 14 June 2016 13: 23
              0
              In the one in which it was canceled.
        2. Wild Hunt
          Wild Hunt 14 June 2016 10: 02
          +4
          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          First flight - 1947 year

          good

          1. kugelblitz
            kugelblitz 14 June 2016 11: 00
            +2
            This flying banana had problems with engine overheating and stability. As well as rotten managed, so they chose to upgrade the B-29! wassat
            1. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 14 June 2016 13: 24
              +1
              preferred B-36

              which did not forget about the fuselage
            2. The comment was deleted.
          2. mart-kot
            mart-kot 14 June 2016 12: 14
            0
            and then I think, where in the "first avenger" (Captain America) the skull has an airplane with a cool shape, and there they are from where the legs grow.
          3. mart-kot
            mart-kot 14 June 2016 12: 14
            0
            and then I think, where in the "first avenger" (Captain America) the skull has an airplane with a cool shape, and there they are from where the legs grow.
        3. yehat
          yehat 14 June 2016 11: 11
          -1
          This jet engine appeared in England in 1940 - began to pass tests.
          in 43rd the British shared with the Americans. in 44, it seems "comet" was built - an English jet fighter, comparable to the Me-262.
          if the Germans had not strained the British in the "battle for Britain", in France, in Africa, by submarine warfare, the British could have built a jet fighter in 42, and with a more advanced engine than the Germans.
          The 2nd or 3rd modification of this engine was then bought after the war by the USSR and put on the MIG, which made it a very good fighter.
          1. Simpsonian
            Simpsonian 14 June 2016 13: 27
            0
            nonsense rare ... all Gloucester's "merits" are 11 "downed" V-1s

            Comparable... yes
            Quote: yehat
            with a better engine
            laughing
      2. Lopatov
        Lopatov 14 June 2016 10: 04
        +1
        Quote: Simpsonian
        Therefore, the "Gloucesters" and similar American vacuum cleaner which was even worse

        Range, respected, range ...

        Jet and missile aviation in those days was not particularly "long-range". And if for the Germans, who were forced to fight almost over their own airfields, this was normal, then for the Americans and British there was simply no place to use such machines.

        The swan song of the British "Meteors" ("Gloucester" is the development company, not the name of the aircraft) was the interception of the V-1. After the removal of this danger, the British Isles no longer needed them.
        1. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 14 June 2016 13: 31
          0
          you would have written that it just flew (well, at least it could) around the tower under the protection of piston aircraft laughing

          only 11 Fau-1s were released? Did not know...

          He was later shot down in Korea
    2. EvilLion
      EvilLion 14 June 2016 08: 24
      +1
      Yes Yes. And we did not have a single ace even on 100 frags. Even the Japanese had 200 shooters. And why? Because when the Air Force is victorious in the War, there already doesn’t care who killed how many personally, the enemy is squeezed out of the sky, there’s nothing left to shoot down, and those that still go astray are spread throughout the huge mass of the Air Force, and not individual Hartmans and Kozhedubov who can survive and even shoot someone down when the sky is buzzing from virgins, but they cannot shoot everyone.
      1. novel66
        novel66 14 June 2016 09: 06
        +4
        in fact, an important factor is the ratio of the shot down and the number of air battles. for all aces, it is approximately the same 1 shot down in 2 air battles. ours is no worse, but there were fewer air battles - why, a question.
        1. lexx_sv
          lexx_sv 14 June 2016 11: 01
          +2
          as far as the German aces wrote in the research they were used in the "fire brigade" mode, the Soviet pilots were not. An example is Alexander Pokryshkin, who served in the 16th Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment. The regiment did not participate in the Battle of the Kursk Bulge, remaining in the 4th Air Army of the Transcaucasian Front, although at the time of the summer of the 43rd there were no active operations in the Caucasus. German "strike" air units were deployed to places of greatest need, they constantly worked at maximum intensity. Therefore, when the mega-aces were knocked down, there was simply no adequate replacement for them.
        2. EvilLion
          EvilLion 14 June 2016 11: 04
          +1
          Actually 1 shot down at 4-5 fights. Our war was won and could bring people to rest, while the Germans made 6 sorties a day. In general, the Air Force, this is like a particularly harsh penal battalion with warm outhouses and dining rooms with waitresses. While infantry attacks once a month, pilots always fly if the weather allows and their losses are greatest.
          1. Simpsonian
            Simpsonian 14 June 2016 16: 12
            0
            The Germans had in better times, but one plane was with him more than one pilot.
      2. yehat
        yehat 14 June 2016 11: 20
        +1
        Japanese in Asia on Zero bent 2 years as they wanted everything that flew there.
        They resisted all sorts of p40 of the first series, buffalo, etc.
        moreover, the quantity did not play any role: there was a battle when 12 zeros attacked 70 fighters, shot down about 20 and scattered the rest. this is how the Japanese got their score. count 1-2 times a week they took off and shot down 1-3 planes and so it went on for 2 years. however, you need to understand that there were super aces - pilots with 5 years of training, where the dropout rate was about 9 out of 10.
      3. The comment was deleted.
      4. evgen1945
        evgen1945 14 June 2016 13: 17
        -1
        We had more than 100 ... Although you are right. There the ratio was high in the shot down. The Japanese were allowed to fight with a raid in my opinion under 400? -500? !!! the Germans had less air raids. I recently found out from our program about aviation, I was very surprised ... Pokryshkin shot down about a hundred or even more. It is a pity that not all victories were counted for him and he gave many shot down to his followers. He also beat on a free hunt, including over the Kuban. Often do not come and confirmation
      5. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 14 June 2016 13: 33
        +1
        There were over 100 (officially) just did not get along with the command like Marinesco

        Unofficially and Pokryshkin shot down more than 100
    3. Lopatov
      Lopatov 14 June 2016 09: 56
      +2
      Maybe they just didn't need aces? Simply, the tasks are different. Protection of bombers. And I have little idea of ​​the performance at the level of Kozhedub for a pilot who flew on the "Light", "Thunderbolt" or "Tempest"
    4. RedBaron
      RedBaron 14 June 2016 10: 49
      +1
      Quote: bocsman
      well done. But only they for some reason, with all the bells and whistles in technology, did not have a single ace like Kozhedub, Pokryshkin, Safonov, etc. Those who beat up without any technical bells and whistles twice as many of their best pilots. And Safonov in general on the I-16 and in the English "pterodactle" "Kitihoke"!

      And there were no "aces" in your understanding because of the rotation, each experienced pilot transferred to a com-position and led the battle, the most optimal strategy for retention of personnel.
      1. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 14 June 2016 13: 40
        0
        they just got their own loot for which he was going to fly on this nickel-plated toilet with an English engine and then drove home. There was no conscription in the USA
        The bomber teams had a contract for 25 sorties, the fighter pilots in my 35 and 50.

        In order to get on hand, a post in the USA needs a patent, like Patton, a revolver, a dad-millionaire (or the millionaire himself), and a West Point diploma, at least ...
        1. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 14 June 2016 14: 04
          0
          ... or they will tell you that "if you are so smart, why are you so poor"?

          Amerika - Das East Wunderbar! Amerika-Amerika ... lol
        2. EvilLion
          EvilLion 14 June 2016 15: 01
          0
          The call was canceled after the Vietnam War, there is no need to star. Without a call, millions of people cannot be put under arms, for the dumb die dumb. Veteran status the number of sorties does not depend on the form of replenishment of l / s, the 30 bombers had EMNIP sorties, only there was a chance like 30 percentages.
          1. Simpsonian
            Simpsonian 14 June 2016 16: 14
            -1
            Star you here - the call was introduced during Vietnam, which caused protests, then canceled.
            For depression and unemployment, therefore, money is needed; now, in the absence of conscription in the USA, they are likewise driven into the army.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. DrVintorez
        DrVintorez 14 June 2016 16: 47
        +1
        oddly enough, the same picture was in the USSR Air Force: pokryshkin at the end of the war also flew very little.
        1. complete zero
          complete zero 14 June 2016 19: 10
          0
          Yes, he (Alexander Ivanovich) was a STRATEG-man by the time the division commanded, it is understandable that he flew a little
          1. DrVintorez
            DrVintorez 15 June 2016 14: 46
            +1
            Too valuable shot, well commanded and was a good mentor. So I did not fly, and this is very correct.
    5. The comment was deleted.
    6. evgen1945
      evgen1945 14 June 2016 13: 25
      -1
      And they didn’t need to stuff as much, their main task was to cover the bombers that were going in large formations. They were chasing the Messers, thereby throwing the bombers to them — covering the bombers was their main task
      1. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 14 June 2016 13: 43
        0
        there was an opportunity - they chased and shot mostly civilians as in Vieinam.

        When Dresden was bombed, those who tried to save from a fire storm in the water near the river were shot down by fighter cover.
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. evgen1945
          evgen1945 14 June 2016 15: 26
          0
          Our silts also shot the columns of refugees and chopped them with screws. So what?
      2. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 14 June 2016 13: 43
        -1
        there was an opportunity - they chased and shot mostly civilians as in Vieinam.

        When Dresden was bombed, those who tried to save from a fire storm in the water near the river were shot down by fighter cover.
    7. complete zero
      complete zero 14 June 2016 19: 03
      0
      B P SAFONOV-legend (the British could have saved but alas) ... but for the sake of truth on Ishak, he drove "Emily" (less often "Fredericks") well, another "one hundred tenths" that for I 16 (during the preparation of flight and sniper shooting Safonov was possibly)
  • D-Master
    D-Master 14 June 2016 06: 50
    +27
    The article makes a very ambiguous impression. On the one hand, everything is true and the planes are beautiful, made on the cutting edge of technical thought. But what does such pathos and admiration for the American genius have to do with it? Yes, the planes are excellent, but the number of victories speaks for itself. In addition, one should not forget about the situation of the warring countries. The Germans forged weapons under the bombs, with a terrifying lack of non-ferrous metals with a terrible lack of time and pressure from starving fronts. The USSR rebuilt production at the evacuated factories, again with a terrible shortage of non-ferrous metals, machine tool personnel and other things ... Naturally, in such conditions it is difficult to talk about urinals in cabs. Yes, and there was no goal. There was nothing to accompany for many hours. Something like this. Although the article is certainly interesting.
    1. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 14 June 2016 06: 59
      +10
      Quote: D-Master
      But what does such pathos and admiration for the American genius have to do with it?

      This is Kaptsov wink ... It is natural for him to play with words and shuffle data, facts, for a colorful description or proof of his innocence request
      1. zyablik.olga
        zyablik.olga 14 June 2016 07: 19
        +16
        Quote: Rurikovich
        Well this Kaptsov wink ... It is typical for him to play with words and to shuffle data, facts, for the colorful description or proof of his innocence request

        Once I read Oleg's publications with great interest, but recently the level of objectivity in his publications has fallen "below the plinth". In pursuit of a colorful presentation, the author does not hesitate to frank falsifications and adjustment of facts to his own theories. What is this statement worth?
        The once formidable “Luftwafle” lost all regalia and lost the battle for air with a crash. The reason was the banal lack of minds and production culture.
        negative It was not the lack of brains and the culture of production that caused the defeat of fascist Germany, but the lack of material and human resources milled on the Eastern Front. It would be interesting to see how the United States and Great Britain fought with Hitler. Do not get involved in an adventure with the attack on the USSR.
        1. Santa Fe
          14 June 2016 08: 53
          -1
          Quote: zyablik.olga
          a lack of material and human resources

          Wow, the production of jet fighters and thousands of Fau rockets suddenly found resources
          1. Simpsonian
            Simpsonian 14 June 2016 09: 08
            +1
            You can ask Google how many jet fighters and the more V-1/2 cost one "Tirg", there will be more than in parrots ...
            1. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 14 June 2016 14: 08
              0
              you can of course stupidly pass deliberately lowering the rating, instead of asking ...

              Fau-1 was worth 3,5 thousand (at the beginning of 10) Tiger-2 under milien
              German conventional units
          2. EvilLion
            EvilLion 14 June 2016 09: 18
            +1
            In fact, a rocket that doesn’t need to carry a person, keep in touch, and generally land, is structurally quite simple, while the jet engines themselves are very unpretentious compared to aircraft engines that give gasoline such that their liter from an ordinary barrel .
            1. Santa Fe
              14 June 2016 09: 41
              -7
              Quote: EvilLion
              ami jet engines in comparison with aviation engines, which supply gasoline such that its liter from the barrel comes out, very unpretentious.

              Do you at least imagine the design of a turbo pump unit LRE
              and the complexity and complexity of the construction of all valves

              the place of these handicrafts - it would be better to create your own analogue R-2800, so where can
              1. Tarikxnumx
                Tarikxnumx 14 June 2016 13: 09
                +4
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

                Do you at least imagine the design of a turbo pump unit LRE
                and the complexity and complexity of the construction of all valves

                the place of these handicrafts - it would be better to create your own analogue R-2800, so where can

                Ooooh, damn it. Oleg, you wouldn’t go where your head doesn’t climb ... If you can still reason about ship’s armor, then I doubt that you understand anything in the fuel systems of jet and aircraft engines.
                And by the way, what does TNA have to do with jet engines Liquid rocket engines?
                In addition, the fuel systems of the first jet engines without afterburners were much simpler and more technologically advanced than the mechanical distributed injection injection of multi-cylinder aircraft engines.
                The main reason for boosting the development of jet engines by Hitler Germany was the banal economy. The jet engine of those times, with comparable developed power, is much more compact in size and, accordingly, contains less metal processed approximately the same number of man hours. And yes, these engines (and modern ones too) did not require gasoline with an octane rating of 100 or higher, but they completely cost kerosene, albeit additionally filtered.
                In addition, an additional reason for switching to jet engines was the understanding that piston motors had already reached the final ratio of hp by that time. to kg engine mass. (which, by the way, has not practically changed even today, in spite of all modern technologies) that is, to increase power without increasing the mass of the engine, and accordingly the mass of the aircraft. Which, in turn, did not allow to increase the speed and maneuverability characteristics of aircraft and was a technological dead end.
              2. DimerVladimer
                DimerVladimer 14 June 2016 13: 44
                +4
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                Do you at least imagine the design of a turbo pump unit LRE
                and the complexity and complexity of the construction of all valves

                the place of these handicrafts - it would be better to create your own analogue R-2800, so where can


                This is a primitive perception of industrial production.
                Tanks can only be produced at certain industrial sites, a metal redistribution cycle to the armor plate is necessary, welding and machining, etc.

                Missiles can be produced in nodes at several enterprises that have relatively simple equipment - and the rocket is not metal-intensive. Indeed, the most expensive engine is the combustion chamber and TNA (turbopump unit). Of the time-consuming (by the hour) - there was only an analog control system.
                The A-10 (V-2) was inexpensive - for the price of 1 tiger, you can build something on the order of 20 missiles (and not to the detriment of one another - different plants and materials). The FAU-1 was ten times cheaper than the FAU-2.
                Several dozens of FAU-1 missiles per day may not have caused much damage to England, but they forced them to keep the barrage of interceptors in the air, wasting energy and resources on the air defense of the metropolis.
          3. zyablik.olga
            zyablik.olga 14 June 2016 09: 45
            +8
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            Wow, the production of jet fighters and thousands of Fau rockets suddenly found resources

            And how many jet fighters did the Germans build? However, you probably like anyone else to know when the first flight of the Me-262 took place? And why was it not serially built for a long time? If you are talking about the "rockets" V-1, then they cost ridiculous money and certainly played their role as a weapon of air terror, and the V-2 were not so expensive compared to, say, a tank.
            In general, with all due respect, the level of preparation of the material for you Oleg has dropped very much. I remember in one of your publications you added that the British serial Lynx helicopter develops a speed of 400 km / h. wassat
        2. Midshipman
          Midshipman 14 June 2016 09: 52
          +8
          Further, the conclusion about the German lack of minds and a culture of production can not be read at all.
      2. Vladimirets
        Vladimirets 14 June 2016 07: 30
        +21
        Quote: Rurikovich
        .It is natural for him to play with words

        "The rejection of camouflage, as one of the most important principles of combat, testified to absolute contempt for the enemy."

        Impressive, right? smile And it doesn't matter that American aircraft were not used from field airfields near the active enemy, and it made no sense to mask them, for example, in Britain by the end of the war. "Contempt for the enemy ...", I directly saw how tears dripped from O. Kaptsov's eyes. laughing
        1. DrVintorez
          DrVintorez 14 June 2016 16: 49
          0
          Quote: Vladimirets
          "Contempt for the enemy ...", I directly saw how tears dripped from O. Kaptsov's eyes

          and from the speech informant in the cockpit, the US anthem plays at its full potential !!!
      3. novel66
        novel66 14 June 2016 09: 11
        +3
        there was an article in the magazine, it seems, "the wings of the homeland", where our pilots did not painfully praise the thunderbolt, the main opinion was that an airplane on which it is good to fly in a straight line, as it is not very good for a fighter, and the absence of cannon weapons at that time was just indecent. only Kaptsov can admire 100 kg of armor on a fighter.
        1. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 14 June 2016 09: 26
          +1
          P-47 was more of an attack aircraft, there the lack of guns was solved by using NAR.
          The escort fighter does not need guns, it does not penetrate 100 mm of armor. On the contrary, with the Americans, everything was in order.
          P-39 with a gun in the US Air Force did not take root
          1. sivuch
            sivuch 14 June 2016 10: 00
            +8
            Everything is much more complicated with a cobra. In any case, it’s not a cannon
            1. HERMES
              HERMES 14 June 2016 11: 00
              +1
              Quote: sivuch
              Everything is much more complicated with a cobra. In any case, it’s not a cannon


              The thing is about the aircraft’s design ... the rear position of the engine, with a heavy gun in front, coupled with high maneuverability, led to an increased chance of getting into a tailspin, which killed many pilots. The later P-63 King Cobra suffered the same problem.

              I want to note ... that the Soviet Yak-9T and Yak-9K, which had 37mm and 45mm guns in service, respectively, exceeded the P-63 in everything except speed.
              1. Simpsonian
                Simpsonian 14 June 2016 14: 16
                -1
                They needed a gun to intercept the bombers (you can read about the creation of Aircobra), the Germans and Japanese did not fly heavy aircraft, the military wanted to remove the gun for relief and this would violate the alignment. That is, it was impossible. Therefore, the plane was shoved into the Soviet Air Force.
              2. complete zero
                complete zero 14 June 2016 19: 13
                +1
                caliber 37 and even more so 45 for a fighter-versus-fighter battle-one might say nonsense (ballistics-rate of fire-BC) ... for ground vehicles and "beavers"
          2. kugelblitz
            kugelblitz 14 June 2016 11: 07
            +1
            The cobra had an interesting feature, namely the concentration in the center of all masses. Due to this, she had some problems with getting out of the tailspin, but this plane had excellent maneuverability. The Americans apparently because of the style of air combat and lower power density did not appreciate Cobra.
            But the 37 mm gun smashed the fighters to shreds, as ours installed one on the Yak-9, which also had a very positive effect on the firing efficiency.
            1. Maegrom
              Maegrom 14 June 2016 11: 45
              0
              On the Yak-9, the NS-37 gun was used, which was very different from the Kobrovskaya 37-ki. Own development of the beginning of the war.
              1. HERMES
                HERMES 14 June 2016 11: 50
                +1
                Quote: Maegrom
                On the Yak-9, the NS-37 gun was used, which was very different from the Kobrovskaya 37-ki. Own development of the beginning of the war.


                The HC-37 had an order of magnitude better ballistics and rate of fire. Plus, the Yaks had a large enough ammo for such a caliber.

                Due to the excellent performance characteristics and especially because of the good ballistics, this gun (in a modernized version with the name H-37) was even put on a jet MiG.
                From MiG-9 to MiG-17.
                1. zyablik.olga
                  zyablik.olga 14 June 2016 12: 28
                  +4
                  Quote: HERMES
                  The HC-37 had an order of magnitude better ballistics and rate of fire. Plus, the Yaks had a large enough ammo for such a caliber.

                  The order is in 10 times, you are more careful with numbers.
              2. kugelblitz
                kugelblitz 14 June 2016 11: 51
                +1
                Inaccurately wrote, it was necessary to write same caliber. Lazhanul happens. repeat
            2. sivuch
              sivuch 14 June 2016 11: 53
              +3
              First of all, the Americans had mainly early cobras -R-400 and P-39D of the early series.After them there was an understandable prejudice. In the Union, on the contrary, they used more brought 39D and later 39N and 39Q (here the main part of the print run was to the Union)
              And yes, the Americans and the British during the battle for England needed a high altitude, and Cobra had problems with this, especially the Deshs.
            3. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 14 June 2016 14: 20
              0
              By bombers or tanks. Even now (and they became bigger and stronger) the fighter needs 20 mm.
            4. complete zero
              complete zero 14 June 2016 19: 15
              +1
              Well, yes ... the truth was only to get (into the fighter) from this very gun)))))
        2. Warrior2015
          Warrior2015 15 June 2016 00: 01
          +1
          Quote: novel xnumx
          our pilots there didn’t painfully praise the thunderbolt, the main opinion was a plane that is good to fly in a straight line, which is not very good for a fighter, and the absence of cannon weapons at that time was simply indecent. only Kaptsov can admire 100 kg of armor on the destroyer.

          in fact, German pilots themselves rated the P-47 as the MOST DIFFICULT American fighter (the engine is an air star, a bunch of armor, an incredibly resistant glider).

          And the most lightweight - do you know who was considered among the Germans? Yes P-51 Mustang! (for without armor, an easily-affected engine and huge masses of gasoline, for an ultra-long escort).

          All Lightning, Tempest with Typhoons - somewhere in the middle between the above.

          Well, the Germans considered Spitfires, especially the latest series, to be the most dangerous opponents in the air.
          1. complete zero
            complete zero 15 June 2016 01: 26
            0
            it was (I hate Spit)))))
          2. sivuch
            sivuch 15 June 2016 09: 25
            0
            How can it be completely without armor? Maybe even without protection? (Although, seriously, some of the tanks, it seems, are really unprotected, they were the first to develop)
            And the Americans themselves considered one of the most unbreakable cars the cobra, for all its shortcomings. The combination of layout, strong armor and small dimensions
  • V.ic
    V.ic 14 June 2016 06: 52
    +6
    The reason was the banal lack of minds and a culture of production. The Germans were unable to establish a serial supply of turbocharged engines, as well as to create a reliable aircraft engine with a capacity of over 2000 hp.

    About the lack of intelligence and culture of production ... something is very doubtful! The author probably does not know about "swallow"Me-262"Schwalbe"? It is naturally difficult to maintain a production culture under constant bombing. Although, in fact, the article itself, in the part concerning the R-74 and R-51, the material is good, therefore the article has no plus or minus. Just about the "lack of minds" I strongly disagree.
    1. Santa Fe
      14 June 2016 08: 58
      -6
      Quote: V.ic
      about the "swallow" Me-262 "Schwalbe"?

      And what is so unusual about it, except for the self-igniting engines.

      All worked on jet engines - the USSR, the British, the USA. And everyone was well aware that it was still too early to seriously put the TTRD. Until the technologies for the production of turbine blades, burning but not burning in a stomping blue flame, will not be created

      Only brilliant Germans decided to take a risk and got it on the forehead. Instead of upgrading piston fighters to the level of the Mustang
      Quote: V.ic
      Under constant bombing to preserve the culture of production is naturally difficult.

      However, the incapable Schwalbe and Mk-163 riveted thousands of pieces
      1. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 14 June 2016 09: 15
        0
        The resource of German jet engines was slightly lower, and they gave an advantage of the best quality.
        262 was done <1500, 163 ~ 370
        US helicopter industry behind the Germans by 10 years.
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. yehat
            yehat 14 June 2016 11: 57
            0
            before the war, the USSR Air Force flew gyros
            and they even took part in the battle in the Caucasus
            as for helicopters, then the USSR had 2 problems along this path - engine production and high cost of use.
          2. Simpsonian
            Simpsonian 14 June 2016 17: 28
            -1
            No, the clown is you. The Germans had helicopters from the 20s, and before the trophy hummingbird hit the American hands in 1942, even the Sikorsky helicopter looked more like a Da Vinci helicopter.
            Then also quickly the Americans copied the V-1, back in 1944
      2. avt
        avt 14 June 2016 09: 56
        +7
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        However incapable Schwalbe

        laughing
        Dear editor! Maybe better about the reactor,
        About your favorite moon tractor? After all, you can not the same year
        Then the plates are scared, they say, mean, fly,
        Then you have dogs barking, then ruins say.
        Oleg ! Better come on about the best in the world, Zamvolt, which was designed by pests. laughing I have not confused any of your incorruptible statements? Here's some fantasy about the armored "Zamvolt". And about what you do not know, it is better not. The pilots considered it an honor to shoot down the "Swallow" and if the messer was so all
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        However incapable Schwalbe

        you wouldn’t have developed a special tactics for dealing with them, which consisted of blocking airborne aerodromes and beaten them mainly on takeoff and landing, when ANY airplane is in a disadvantageous situation, and even the first one is reactive.
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        Schwalbe and Mk-163 riveted thousands of pieces

        Well, somehow lie, but don't lie. By what "thousands"? 262 in total under 1400 units, and 163, which is jet, not even a thousand tuned somewhere more than 400 cars. Even if you take your method - well, two thousand is not recruited. That is, thousands in any way - at least burst. thousands of "pistons" went, dozens.
        1. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 14 June 2016 17: 30
          0
          the question is why the editor misses all this pornography
    2. Alex
      Alex 14 June 2016 09: 21
      +3
      Quote: V.ic
      About the lack of intelligence and culture of production ... something is very doubtful! The author probably does not know about the "swallow" Me-262 "Schwalbe"?

      Of course, the Swallow's passport flight characteristics are simply amazing, plus the magic of jet propulsion - a sort of business card for the future - but in reality the Me-262 did not make much of the weather and did not have an overwhelming advantage. Kozhedub knocked over one such "bird" on a piston "lavochkin" and did not peck anything.
      1. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 14 June 2016 09: 32
        -2
        the key word is one ... there was already a fuel shortage, that's why they didn't do it, but from April to August 1944, the "allies" were close to collapse
        1. overb
          overb 14 June 2016 09: 51
          -4
          Quote: Simpsonian
          but from April to August 1944 the "Allies" were close to collapse

          It’s a pity they don’t know about it.
          1. DrVintorez
            DrVintorez 14 June 2016 16: 54
            +1
            Quote: overb
            It’s a pity they don’t know about it.

            Of course they don’t know. but they know that they won the Second World War, the USSR was an evil empire, and the first to fly into space, and immediately to the moon, flew Armstrong.
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. overb
              overb 14 June 2016 17: 24
              -1
              Quote: DrVintorez
              but they know that they won the Second World War, the USSR was an evil empire, and the first to fly into space, and immediately to the moon, flew Armstrong.

              Did not win?
              Wasn’t for them?
              Nobody knows about space for sure. Extra low value information. They are not taught low value. Learn differently. Not so much better or worse. It’s just completely different, the learning system is different. Very differentiated. No need for the future farmer about space. And about the climatic zones of Africa, is also not necessary. He without this info will live perfectly.
              1. DrVintorez
                DrVintorez 14 June 2016 18: 10
                0
                Quote: overb
                Did not win?

                did not win. defeated the ussr. Yes, with the help of the Allies, but it was the USSR, not the United States.
                Quote: overb
                Wasn’t for them?

                in their brains, as you rightly noted, there were "differentiated trained" (well, that is, flushed through). only the USSR did not "bomb out" the cities, including with nuclear weapons, the USSR did not come up with the "unthinkable" plan, etc.
                and the worst thing that Russia is now for them, thanks to such diff training, is also an evil empire.
                1. overb
                  overb 14 June 2016 19: 05
                  -1
                  Quote: DrVintorez
                  did not win. defeated the ussr. Yes, with the help of the Allies, but it was the USSR, not the United States.

                  But the participants of the Potsdam conference do not agree with you. Everything, including the Soviet side.
                  Quote: DrVintorez
                  that's just not the ussr

                  No need for a white and fluffy USSR.
                  1. complete zero
                    complete zero 15 June 2016 01: 29
                    0
                    and who actually was this very fluffy ... but not really the Americans ... watched the film the death of Lacconia? (on the real events of the film) ... or the bombing of Dresden was justified ??? ... I am already silent about Hiroshima from Nagasaki ... ('white and fluffy')))))
            3. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 14 June 2016 17: 31
              0
              well, he has a "strong hand" ...
          2. The comment was deleted.
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. Alex
          Alex 14 June 2016 11: 14
          +4
          The key word - failed ... And about the fuel hunger ... What is it, if their fuel was filled up, the brave "Nibelungs" would have smashed the "Asians"? Like we guys are brave, five of us are not afraid of one.

          As the Allies were doing there, it has nothing to do with our conversation. Although I can guess that it’s not very good if they drove the Americans in a compartment with nuggle-saxes and paddling pools with wet rags on the planes that we shot down.
    3. yehat
      yehat 14 June 2016 11: 35
      -6
      ME-262 is not an indicator.
      who would have buried the Americans, these are planes like the he-162 salamander (ratio of performance to price) and the arado-234.
  • Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 14 June 2016 06: 56
    +23
    I can not hear about the sea, so Oleg Kaptsov spread to aviation lol
    Soon we will hear that the Americans not only defeated Hitler in the sky, but Berlin took laughing Horror... request
    And I wonder if a truck overtakes a Gazelka on the road, does it also have a lower drag coefficient? Or maybe the engine is simply more powerful winked ...
    Minus for excessive pathos, the play on words and America, Oleg, God did not elect to be his prophets wink
    1. DrVintorez
      DrVintorez 14 June 2016 16: 56
      +1
      Oleg just a book came to hand to see. about the mustang. Well, actually the work was born. right now he will read comments, take note of interesting thoughts, twist in his own way, and stamp a couple more opuses.
  • dumkopff
    dumkopff 14 June 2016 07: 19
    +20
    Excessive pathos destroys the article. I would write dryly, without enthusiasm, it would be great. And then I got a barrel organ:
    "How the US Air Force Defeated the Luftwaffe". And the RAF and the Soviet Air Force stood on the sidelines.
    "The rejection of camouflage, as one of the most important principles of combat, testified to absolute contempt for the enemy." It is easy to despise the enemy when you have an overwhelming numerical advantage and many enemy fighters are knocked out in the skies over England and over the USSR.
    "A banal lack of minds and production culture." Is he definitely about the Germans, whose achievements were collected with great interest by the winners?
    "The logical solution was to improve the piston engines and designs of existing aircraft." In hindsight, everyone is strong. And no one thought about the overwhelming advantage of the allies in industrial and human potential? Whatever good planes the Germans make, the states could print 5-10 times more. After 1943, the Germans may have had only one option: a miracle, a wunderwaffe. Going beyond the existing framework. At any attempt to play "honestly" (approximately equal weapons and tactics), they were stumbled with a guarantee.
    But after the entry begins a normal article.
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 14 June 2016 07: 34
      +1
      At the height of unpainted aluminum masks better under the color of the sky.
      1. Santa Fe
        14 June 2016 08: 59
        -4
        Quote: Simpsonian
        At the height of unpainted aluminum masks better under the color of the sky.

        Another brilliant thought, though not confirmed by anything other than the words of the Simpsonian
        1. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 14 June 2016 09: 20
          +2
          MiG-15, 21, etc. F-86 in Korea will not fit for confirmation? Or modern "disguise-defying" aircraft?
          1. tlauicol
            tlauicol 14 June 2016 09: 52
            0
            read the first paragraphs of the article
          2. Santa Fe
            14 June 2016 09: 52
            0
            Quote: Simpsonian
            MiG-15, 21, etc. F-86 in Korea for confirmation will not work?

            MiG North Korea coloring scheme



            Deck Su-33


            So admit about the stratosphere that I thought up this right away and turned out to be wrong.
            1. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 14 June 2016 16: 23
              0
              To the Taoist, in a commentary, please. there about "mirror disguise".
              there are much more photographs of "mirror" aluminum aircraft than drawings from children's albums
            2. DrVintorez
              DrVintorez 14 June 2016 17: 00
              0
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              So admit about the stratosphere that I thought up this right away and turned out to be wrong.

              a person leads a conversation with himself ...
              no one wrote about the stratosphere.

              and where are the pictures of camouflage saiber? or in Korea, too, the Americans expressed contempt? Well, then your favorites are clinical oligofrends. after being piled on, contempt did not diminish.

              and what does su33 have to do with it?
          3. Midshipman
            Midshipman 14 June 2016 10: 00
            0
            They probably also despise the Germans.
      2. Midshipman
        Midshipman 14 June 2016 09: 58
        +5
        Why did they even have to disguise, if they walked armada on a hundred aircraft, only the rumble of which could be heard for tens of kilometers? This is not the IL-2, which was spread at low level. And on account of "they despised so much that they stopped disguising themselves" - bullshit: the insurance company will say in a helmet, that means in a helmet and at least despise.
        1. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 14 June 2016 16: 28
          -1
          so they don’t get shot better, don’t need money
  • Urfin
    Urfin 14 June 2016 07: 19
    +17
    Oleg, with all due respect ... It starts to annoy ignorance in writing articles.
    What contempt? The lack of camouflage is caused not by some emotions, but by the fact that with dominance (primarily numerical) air, the risk from friendly fire is higher than from enemy fire - this is the main reason. A similar situation was in the Luftwaffe at the beginning of the Second World War.
    Moreover, the technical superiority of weapons extremely rarely became the main reason for victory in wars (without thinking only the invention of iron and colonial wars comes to mind - but everything is ambiguous there).

    Although maybe in vain I’m talking about ignorance - this is Kaptsov’s style ...
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 14 June 2016 07: 41
      0
      Provocation and truthfulness, well Papandopula shaved it off with "Semyon Dezhnev"
      If it’s about Indian, then there were blankets with smallpox and singed vodka, and in Africa it’s hot, the blanket is not needed, vodka does not fit into your mouth, and your wine - therefore, only with automatic Maxim, otherwise they will poison laughing
    2. yehat
      yehat 14 June 2016 18: 11
      0
      during the siege of Sevastopol during the Crimean War, technical superiority - the range of aimed fire from rifles was a very important factor that influenced the course of action.

      a similar situation occurs when the British landing in the 100 year war - the range of the English bows even solved the battles, where the British were half as much.
      the fire from them was so deadly that sometimes siege equipment was not even required against small fortresses.
      1. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 14 June 2016 20: 19
        0
        during siege, they hit with artillery, rifles and rifles were on both sides

        not range but rate of fire, and the civil war in France

        in Crimea, the Mongols would easily rush the English with arrows from their truly long-range bows
  • qwert
    qwert 14 June 2016 07: 23
    +9
    Oh, Oleg, Oleg. Well, leave this aircraft alone ... After all, there is a fleet. There you get more literate articles. Even if they are controversial, even if you are arguing with you, you can still see that you understand ships very well. But, aviation ... hi Everything is mixed up. And in the first place of the era.
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 14 June 2016 07: 44
      0
      Let’s plant a topic ... Did the Americans have an armored IL-2?
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. EvilLion
          EvilLion 14 June 2016 09: 29
          +6
          Oleg, here’s not a star, you really should know how the attempts to engage strategists in solving tactical tasks ended. It flew anywhere, including in its own way, so that they began to bombard bombers. Until the appearance of guided bombs, this is bullshit. And 900 kg of armor on the 30-tonne bomber and the Il-2 armored hull are fundamentally different things, including in terms of metallurgy, an alloy still needed to be developed to create an armored aircraft with a bearing body.
          1. Simpsonian
            Simpsonian 14 June 2016 09: 42
            0
            he called by comparing 1 motor with something else

            if you load the B-747 into the cabin with armor, the attack aircraft will not make it
          2. yehat
            yehat 14 June 2016 18: 12
            0
            Germans condors flew without reservation
        2. sivuch
          sivuch 14 June 2016 10: 08
          +4
          Yeah, you can remember Monte Cassino. They bombed a lot there. And, if not difficult, where did 900 kilos of armor come from on the B-17?
          http://forums.airbase.ru/2015/04/t70975--b-17.9790.html
          Here and the reservation scheme and the thickness of the armor plates
          1. yehat
            yehat 14 June 2016 18: 13
            0
            Yes, one lower turret with its bulletproof glass weighed dofiga
      2. novel66
        novel66 14 June 2016 09: 15
        +2
        was a thunderbolt, and he only pretended to be a fighter
        1. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 14 June 2016 09: 39
          0
          How is this with the FV-190?
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Santa Fe
      14 June 2016 09: 01
      -5
      Quote: qwert
      even if you argue with you, it is still clear that you understand the ships very well. But, aviation ...

      Have questions for the technical aspects of the article?
      1. zyablik.olga
        zyablik.olga 14 June 2016 09: 36
        +5
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        Have questions for the technical aspects of the article?

        How do you like that aspect?
        During one of these attacks, the tank of the famous ace Michael Wittmann was burned.
        Are you sure that it was a rocket with P-47? And let me ask you what it was on the NAR?

        Is this not it?

        In general, I think it would be useful for you to familiarize yourself with this:
        http://topwar.ru/96135-rol-boevoy-aviacii-soyuznikov-v-borbe-s-nemeckimi-tankami

        .html
      2. sivuch
        sivuch 14 June 2016 10: 09
        +4
        Yes, I have partially announced
      3. DrVintorez
        DrVintorez 14 June 2016 17: 11
        +2
        have questions.
        where are the technical aspects?
        What is the engine power of a mustang?
        What is the power of the Mustang d?

        How do the Mustang and Thunder feel at low altitude?
        Does the author understand the difference between battles on the eastern front, on the western and the pacific?

        Why are "technical aspects" given absolutely one-sidedly, sparingly, and exclusively from the advantageous side?
        Where are the characteristics determining the maneuverability indicators?

        Well, and the main question, to which there is no answer from the word "absolutely":
        HOW DOES THE U.S. Air Force defeat the Luftwaffe?
        although whom am I asking ...
  • geek2101
    geek2101 14 June 2016 07: 23
    +6
    The aforementioned American fighters were overweight and overly armed with flying logs with huge engines and, as a result, with good "acceleration dynamics".
    A clear reflection of their qualities is the entire American classic car industry, which is a mirror of the then aircraft industry - huge, heavy, intricate units with huge power and size.
    Naturally, the flip side of the coin was reduced to zero and virtually absent maneuverability, which became the basis for the survival of a fighter aircraft in aerial combat. And no radar for viewing the rear hemisphere will help the pilot if the characteristics of the aircraft do not allow him to timely perform the evasion maneuver.
    I'm not talking about the cost of such an instance in production.
    The author’s pathos is incomprehensible in conditions when American troops in general and American pilots, in particular, in the field of struggle against Hitler Germany and specifically the Luftwaffe, did not commit anything heroically - carpet bombing of German cities does not count.
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 14 June 2016 08: 14
      0
      Weapons do not happen much. With all this, the P-51 had a decent range. Maybe he was the best escort, maybe because of the P-38 - no

      The British laugh when they say that Mutang is better than their fighters, and the engine in it was ... Oops ... English. laughing Before its installation, it was a mediocre aircraft.
    2. overb
      overb 14 June 2016 08: 15
      -7
      Quote: geek2101
      And no radar for viewing the rear hemisphere will help the pilot if the characteristics of the aircraft do not allow him to timely perform the evasion maneuver.

      Poor-poor Luftwaffe pilots. They did not know in 1941 that when they met I-16, and especially I-15, their song on the Messerschmitt Bf.109 was sung.
      In fact, everything is decided by battle tactics. The battle tactics of American pilots, when meeting with the German, repeated the tactics of the battle of German pilots on the Eastern Front in 1941. Those. on the Western front, the parties simply switched roles.
      In general, the great and terrible Germans were only on the Eastern Front. In the West, they looked very pale. Straight from a French company in 1940. They have been under sanctions for 15 years, this could not but affect the level of their development. Air "Battle of England" they pro *** ali back in the same 1940. Therefore, in 1941. and rushed to the east, knocking out the weak link. It's even cooler there, for more than 20 years in self-isolation they "developed". Having invented for themselves an "enemy environment".
      1. sivuch
        sivuch 14 June 2016 09: 21
        +9
        Yeah, but the French were not under sanctions and came up with such great designs as the MV-152 (3-aircraft), the suitcase MS-406 and the Codron S-714. And the British are Rock and Defiant.
        This is sarcasm, if anyone does not understand
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 14 June 2016 11: 49
          0
          The USSR was under more severe sanctions until July 1941. Without sarcasm.
      2. nekot
        nekot 14 June 2016 13: 55
        0
        ))) What singer of sanctions)) And how did they lose the "Battle of England" dry? Was everything that bad for the Germans? Yes, by the way, tell us how the French smashed the Germans in the air during the French company, pliz) As for "inventing an enemy encirclement", you are cool - that is, all of Europe wanted to kiss passionately with Stalin, and he, a scoundrel, invented external enemies?)))
        1. overb
          overb 14 June 2016 14: 14
          -1
          Quote: nekot
          Which singer sanctions)

          Do you condemn the sanctions that were imposed on Germany under the terms of the Versailles Peace Treaty? Greet the actions of Hitler, who did not give a damn about these restrictions? Oh well.
          Quote: nekot
          And how did they lose "Battle of England" dry?

          In the wet.
          Quote: nekot
          Yes, by the way, tell how the French smashed the Germans in the air during a French company, pliz)

          Is there no need to play the balayka? I can. I’m only afraid that you don’t have enough money to pay.
          Quote: nekot
          As for "having invented an enemy environment," are you cool - that is, the whole of Europe wanted to kiss passionately with Stalin, and he, a scoundrel, invented external enemies?

          Nobody in the world is ever going to kiss anyone. Only with Brezhnev and for very good money.
          But the "enemy encirclement" invented by the Bolsheviks is from the desire to isolate everyone in the Soviet concentration camp. They did it quite well. There was also the other side of the coin, Soviet science and technology in such conditions inevitably degraded relative to the world level. So she fought as a result of the Red Army in the Second World War with weapons of tsarist times, which the USSR later passed off as legendary.
          1. complete zero
            complete zero 15 June 2016 01: 44
            0
            (about the balalaika) - I am tormented by vague doubts .. that you are able to distinguish between a major key and a minor key (guessed?) ... and about everything else (yours that I’m reading right now) ... well, really (no offense) agitation from the time of the ever-memorable Central Committee CPSU (well, just the other way) .. nothing personal dear.
            1. overb
              overb 15 June 2016 01: 53
              -1
              Quote: complete zero
              (guessed?).

              No.
              Quote: complete zero
              (I’m reading yours now) ... well, really (no offense) agitation from the time of the ever-memorable Central Committee of the CPSU (well, just the other way)

              Do not read. And there will be you Happiness.
            2. The comment was deleted.
        2. Warrior2015
          Warrior2015 15 June 2016 00: 11
          0
          Quote: nekot
          Yes, by the way, tell how the French smashed the Germans in the air during a French company, pliz

          Yes, everything is simple - the relative losses of the Luftwaffe in battles with France and a number of air forces of other Western countries suffered greater than in battles with Poland or the USSR in the initial period of the war.

          But the most powerful in the skies of Europe were considered the French and English Air Force. The Luftwaffe turned out to be unexpectedly large and too competent for everyone.
      3. yehat
        yehat 14 June 2016 18: 30
        +1
        The Germans did not win the battle for England, but did not lose. They were good at the Royal Air Force and only Goering’s order to transfer attacks to the cities saved Britain’s aviation from complete defeat.
        The Germans' problem was the range of fighters - bf109E flew 35-40 minutes.
        therefore, the bombers were undisguised, and they were not strategists and bombed from low altitudes, had poor defense, which led to large losses.
        bf110c completely could not cope with the maintenance tasks.
        This was compounded by the fact that the British met near their airfields and had more fuel. Plus, radars made it possible to concentrate fighters on time.
        within the range of bf-109E the Germans did not have serious problems.
        1. overb
          overb 14 June 2016 19: 15
          -2
          Quote: yehat
          The Germans did not win the battle for England, but did not lose.

          This is counted in airplanes. And if you count in the pilots, then everything for the Germans ended in failure. Because the downed British often returned to duty the next day. And the downed Germans died or were captured.
          Quote: yehat
          only Goering’s order to transfer attacks on the cities saved Britain’s aviation from complete defeat.

          This was a sign that Germany was running out of pilots. After some time, they completely stopped flying.
          1. complete zero
            complete zero 15 June 2016 01: 51
            0
            not only did they stop ... but generally abandoned the invasion
          2. yehat
            yehat 15 June 2016 09: 26
            0
            Quote: overb

            This was a sign that Germany was running out of pilots. After some time, they completely stopped flying.

            on what basis did you draw this conclusion?
            at the time of Goering’s order, the Germans had an approximately 40-fold advantage in the number of trained fighter pilots.
            1. overb
              overb 16 June 2016 22: 15
              0
              Quote: yehat
              on what basis did you draw this conclusion?

              Based on historical facts.
              Quote: yehat
              at the time of Goering’s order, the Germans had an approximately 40-fold advantage in the number of trained fighter pilots.

              You trim the pike. Moreover, they fought for Britain, including and Komsomol volunteers from the United States. And there the pilots were like dirt. The Poles were still at war. French people. Canadians with Australians and New Zealanders. So, about 40-fold superiority, you have enough of that.
        2. complete zero
          complete zero 15 June 2016 01: 50
          0
          oily plus ... !!!!!
      4. complete zero
        complete zero 15 June 2016 01: 39
        0
        Well, do not talk about sanctions ... by the time of the battle for Britain ... Messer was equipped with a forced fuel injection (unlike Spit or Ferret) ... which had a very serious effect on negative overloads ...
    3. Santa Fe
      14 June 2016 09: 07
      -6
      Quote: geek2101
      Naturally, the reverse side of the medal was reduced to zero and almost absent maneuverability.

      Come right away in numbers, power density, wing load

      For all these parameters, the Mustang was not inferior to the Messerschmitts, and with it had an increasing advantage with increasing height
      1. sivuch
        sivuch 14 June 2016 10: 22
        +7
        Which 109 (although actually, already in 1943 the FW-190 became the main machine) and which Mustang?
        If the Bf-109G with GM-1 and without additional equipment, then there was no Mustang advantage at height
      2. complete zero
        complete zero 14 June 2016 19: 19
        0
        yes not really?)))) (in all respects))))))
      3. complete zero
        complete zero 15 June 2016 01: 54
        0
        Well, how could he not concede ... the mess (if he happened to twist horizontally) would have an advantage over the "Musy" ... to a hundred, according to the memoirs of our pilots ... Messer was not badly spinning in quarrels ... but they just did not like it thankful job
    4. EvilLion
      EvilLion 14 June 2016 09: 31
      +7
      And why the heck to do something heroic when you have a quantitative and qualitative advantage. For the heroism of some, it is usually necessary to shoot others, because of which this heroism was required.
      1. Leto
        Leto 14 June 2016 09: 35
        +3
        Quote: EvilLion
        For the heroism of some, it is usually necessary to shoot others, because of which this heroism was required.

        Golden words ...
    5. Mikhail Matyugin
      Mikhail Matyugin 15 June 2016 15: 21
      0
      Quote: geek2101
      The author’s pathos is incomprehensible in conditions when the American troops in general, and the American pilots, in particular, in the field of the fight against Nazi Germany and specifically with the Luftwaffe, didn’t do anything practically -

      You will not believe it, but the Luftwaffe transferred air groups from the Eastern Front to the Mediterranean and the West throughout the war, even managed to do it during Kursk and Bagration. Conversely - almost never returned.
  • Gunxnumx
    Gunxnumx 14 June 2016 07: 32
    +2
    No doubt, the planes are good, but they were made at the expense of our blood and gold. And German blood and gold, perhaps. I do not share the author’s excessive admiration. And I agree with previous commentators about the conditions in which all this was done. We fought not for life, but to death. And they made their gesheft, brewing both Worlds.
    1. Gunxnumx
      Gunxnumx 14 June 2016 08: 24
      +3
      And the Luftwaffe defeated ours. By and large.
  • vietnam7
    vietnam7 14 June 2016 07: 36
    +7
    From the first lines of the article, it becomes clear who the author is! Recently I re-read Vorozheikin's book "Fighters" about the actions of our aviation on Khalkhin Gol, it mentions the arrival of specialists in aircraft camouflage at the unit. The pilots themselves agreed that the silver I-153 and Japanese aircraft, which were painted white, are the least visible in the air. for the sake of experiment, the squadron commander's plane was painted "according to science" and after the first battle he dispersed all the specialists. For the rest of the article, I agree with most of the comments. Thanks to Oleg for a large number of photos for the article.
    1. Midshipman
      Midshipman 14 June 2016 10: 05
      +3
      Moreover, in the USSR in the 30s, experiments were carried out on the application of mirror coatings on aircraft, as a result, according to eyewitnesses, the aircraft literally dissolved in air after take-off. Unfortunately, due to the mass and fragility of the coating, it did not go into series.
  • Alex_59
    Alex_59 14 June 2016 07: 39
    +4
    The technological superiority of the USA in WWII is undeniable, as well as the fact that the Luftwaffe was defeated by the Red Army Air Force, and not by the Americans.
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 14 June 2016 07: 48
      0
      What did the Americans have such a jet? Except YB-49 which appeared in 1949? Another war would have started to begin and end by this time ...
      There is no objection to the second, and it cannot be.
  • Hammer
    Hammer 14 June 2016 07: 39
    +7
    I look, Kaptsev retrained from a sea wolf to an air ace
    1. yehat
      yehat 14 June 2016 18: 43
      +3
      no, just an article about mustangs is a prelude to a series of articles about armored air cruisers like the B-17. Soon we will see reservation schemes, armored belts, gun-resistant propellers and unkillable ailerons, and then smoothly reach the Japanese flying boat H8
      http://www.airpages.ru/jp/h8k.shtml
      or american flying goose
      and finally move on to the usual displacement, armored deck, etc. laughing
  • Razvedka_Boem
    Razvedka_Boem 14 June 2016 07: 47
    +3
    "Mustang" was also called the air Cadillac .. This aircraft can be called the best fighter of the Second World War in terms of its qualities. But as already noted in the comments, "puppy" enthusiasm for the American kills the entire article.
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 14 June 2016 07: 51
      +1
      Better Me-262 (without enthusiasm)? The French more than Mustang and Spitfire liked the Yak-3.
      1. Razvedka_Boem
        Razvedka_Boem 14 June 2016 08: 13
        +2
        The Me-262 was a crude aircraft. And the French liked the Yak, apparently because they got it for free ..) But of course, the Yak is also a decent car.
        1. sivuch
          sivuch 14 June 2016 09: 23
          +3
          Because it corresponded from the pre-war concept of a light maneuverable aircraft
        2. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 14 June 2016 11: 22
          0
          I think it's better to ask them. In 1944, they cried from this crude aircraft and even tried to refuse to fly for bombing until they reached the required 25 sorties under the contract.
        3. yehat
          yehat 16 June 2016 10: 13
          0
          The 262nd remained raw due to throwing what he should become
          some wanted a reconnaissance fighter, others a fighter, a third fighter-bomber, and a fourth interceptor against bombers. As a result, without specialization, he remained neither fish nor meat.
          If the Germans in the year 42 had decided on a narrow role or on the line of DIFFERENT modifications, then the 262nd would have managed to prove itself.
          in my opinion, 2 points of view were right about this plane -
          it was very well suited for attacking flying fortresses and for point attacks of well-defended ground targets (using guided ammunition).
          1. Simpsonian
            Simpsonian 16 June 2016 10: 21
            0
            Due to the "throwing" there may be a delay in development, but not that ... As a result, it was the only jet aircraft that fought, and it was from its practically unpunished actions that in the summer of 1944 the number of bombers began to decline.
            one and a half years it took to refine the engines and their production,
            he was very well suited to attack NAR bombers
      2. overb
        overb 14 June 2016 08: 30
        0
        Quote: Simpsonian
        The French more than Mustang and Spitfire liked the Yak-3.

        And what, did someone offer them Mustangs and Spitfires?
        1. sivuch
          sivuch 14 June 2016 10: 45
          +3
          Spitfires in the Union were. Early Mustangs, in my opinion, too
          1. overb
            overb 14 June 2016 11: 18
            -3
            Quote: sivuch
            Spitfires in the Union were. Early Mustangs, in my opinion, too

            This does not mean that they were offered to the French.
            These aircraft were delivered to the USSR under Lend-Lease ONLY FOR THE RKKA. In general, everything that was supplied under Lend-Lease, it was supplied ONLY for the Red Army or to provide for the Red Army. And the French did not belong to the Red Army. Therefore, formally, this would be a violation of the conditions of supply.
            1. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 14 June 2016 11: 27
              0
              Nonsense is rare. These were not Vichy French.
              1. overb
                overb 14 June 2016 11: 32
                -3
                Quote: Simpsonian
                These were not Vichy French.

                Do not grind nonsense, they were in the De Gaulle army.
                And come up with "arguments" further. This attempt is not valid.
            2. The comment was deleted.
          2. complete zero