Military Review

Ta-xnumx. The last piston fighter of the Luftwaffe

170


According to many experts, the Ta-152 fighter, which became the development of the FW-190D, was the most advanced piston aircraft created by Kurt Tank. Possessing excellent flight data, especially at high altitudes, the Ta-152 could well gain the title of “Anti Mustang,” and enter history as the best piston fighter of the Luftwaffe. However, born already in the days of the collapse of the Third Reich and built in the amount of only 67 pieces, the Ta-152 was not able to really prove itself in military operations and, along with such fighters as the R-51N, Spiteful, Yak-3 (with an aircraft engine VK-108) became only a kind of swan piston fighter song aviation.

Back in the summer of 1941, before the FW-190A began troop testing, the company set out to improve its fighter. First of all, due to problems with the BMW 801 engine and due to the unsatisfactory performance of the new fighter at high altitudes. During this period, the company considered the project of a fighter with a promising aircraft engine, based on the FW-190А. These works consisted of several sections from Ra 1 to Ra 8 (Ra is an analytical project). The project, prepared by the group under the leadership of Mittelhuber, considered various combinations of new engines, wings and other components and systems of the aircraft. The result of these works were two fundamental conclusions that should have a significant impact on the further development of the fighter company.

Based on the available data, the weight and size of the engines increased to such an extent that in order to obtain speeds of more than 760 km / h, a different power plant was required, and specifically a jet engine. And if such fighters require a large ceiling, then the optimal combination of aircraft characteristics and engine weight will be equipping them with two-stage superchargers. The dimension of the wing should be chosen based on the landing speed and the minimum requirements for maneuverability of the aircraft. Recognition of this guaranteed the success of the company Ta-152 and helped to avoid mistakes made by other companies, including the "Messerschmitt".

16 in May 1942 of the German Ministry of Aviation (RLM) instructed the firms Messerschmitt and Focke-Wulf to express their vision of a so-called special fighter with a large ceiling, capable of solving the tasks of a high-altitude reconnaissance aircraft. At the first stage, the RLM provided for the modification of an existing fighter, and at the second, the creation of a completely new design. All the offers and works of Messerschmitt under the super-chopper program (Bf.109H, Me-209H, project R.1091a, Me-155В) were finally stopped by RLM in favor of reactive types developed there, or transferred to other firms, as in the case of Me-155B, which eventually became Blom und Vos VV-155.

The Focke-Wulf manual proposed to create two fighters, in the first stage, based on the early Ra 2 and Ra 3 projects, and in the second, on the basis of the Ra 4D, which had significant design changes and improved aerodynamics. The technical committee accepted these proposals.

On the Ra 2 it was supposed to use a new wing, applied later on the FW-190D, and on the Ra 3 a wing of increased span, most corresponding to flights at high altitudes. With the exception of the wing, the planes were virtually identical.

The Yumo 213E engine was equipped with a two-stage supercharger with intermediate cooling, which increased the altitude in comparison with the base Yumo 213A. Both planes were supposed to be equipped with pressure cabins and units for the installation of the GX1 and MW 50 engine power increase systems. Electric drive flap and chassis replaced by hydraulics. The fuselage of both prototypes was extended to increase the internal volume. In order to maintain the alignment, the cab was moved to the 40 cm towards the tail.

Keel increased. The aircraft received an 30-mm cannon motor and a pair of 20-mm cannons in the root parts of the wing, in addition, two more were placed above the engine in the fuselage. During this period, the prestige and influence of Kurt Tank became so great that they even assigned the designation “Ta” to the projects instead of the usual FW, although the significant difference between the Ra 2 and Ra 3 from previous models caused the name to change. The use of the letters “Ta” in the designation of the aircraft was a belated recognition of the outstanding contribution that Kurt Tank made to the development of German aviation. Besides him, just one aircraft designer was given such an honor - Kalkert from the enterprise "Gotha".

Since both new variants, despite the big differences, were nevertheless viewed as a further development of the FW-190, it was natural that RLM, following its practice of giving the designations of the modification with letters, left the character range of the previous model. The fighters with the BMW-801 that have just entered the series have been designated FW-190F and G. Therefore, the new aircraft should have been assigned the designations Ta-152Н and Ta-152К (the letters "J" and "T", as a rule, were not used). However, Kurt Tank considered a modification with short wing consoles (Ra 2) escort fighter (Bagletjager), and long-wing (Ra 3) high-altitude (Hohenjager). The influence of Tank was so great that both variants eventually identified Ta-152В and Ta-152Н. The letter "B" was previously assigned a high-altitude modification of the FW-190 with a VMW-801 engine, but this option did not receive development, so the conscience of the RLM who followed Kurt Tank remained clean.

The FW-190 / Ra-4D project involved the use of an FW-190D airframe with a turbo-compressor DВ-603 engine or with a new modification of the motor of this series. The design of the airframe and wing has undergone significant processing. By this time, one of the prototypes of the FW-190-V32 was prepared for testing some technical solutions of the planned Ta-153 (designation assigned to the Ra-4D project). After equipping the prototype with a DV-603 engine with a four-bladed propeller and a new wing, this prototype was given the designation FW-190 V32 / U1.

Ta-xnumx. The last piston fighter of the Luftwaffe


The new wing of a slightly increased scope and area, in addition to better aerodynamics, also became more technologically advanced and had a fuel tank in the center section. Since fighter aircraft demanded the creation of an aircraft that was supposed to exceed the American P-51 Mustang at high altitudes, the technical department planned to use this wing on the Ta-152.

In December, the 1943 th FW-190 V32 / U1 made its first flight. The results of the flight turned out to be very “modest” and far from the calculated ones. For this reason, the "correct" prototype of Ta-153 did not build. Due to the "dampness" during this period of the engine DВ-603, its mass production was also not started. 13 On January 1944, by decision of RLM, the development of the Ta-153 was stopped in favor of the reactive Ta-183.

The decision to resume the development of the Ta-153 was facilitated by the fact that several new research projects were carried out at the Focke-Wulf: Ra-1 - front-line fighter, Ra-2 - high-altitude fighter, Ra-3 strike aircraft and Ra-4 - escort fighter. Thus, Tank decided to first upgrade the FW-190, installing a powerful engine on it, and only then develop a high-altitude fighter.

Despite the strong lobbying by Tank for the immediate launch of the Ta-152 into the series, RLM clearly did not want to break the streamlined production, as the overall design of the FW-190 was insignificant. The Ta-152 program was comatose until the spring of 1944, when they made a serious attempt to master the production of a new fighter at the aircraft factory in Zorau. Thus, the prototype Ta-152 were serial machines.

The tank was defended by a Ta-152 with a motor DV-603, while the Technical Department planned to have a car with Yumo-213. However, the department tacitly encouraged the unofficial work on Ta-152 with DB-603 and eventually gave permission for the production of an experienced Ta-152C. Another modification was the reconnaissance Ta-152E, developed on the basis of the Ta-152В. He accepted the draft of the reconnaissance aircraft based on the FW-190А-4.

In the workshops of the aircraft factory of the city of Zorau Ta-152H-0 has already been laid. The second assembly line was prepared in the city of Cottbus. The prototypes of the series were the first five Ta-152H. In November-December, the 1944-th chief-pilot of the company Zander performed fly-overs of the pre-production Ta-152H (V1-V5). The first two took off in November and were then transferred for statistical tests. The next three cars (VЗ-V5), on which wings with steel spars were installed for the first time, were the original prototypes of Ta-152H-1. These prototypes took to the 17 December 1944 th air.

After elimination of defects detected during the first tests, the Ta-152H reached speeds in 720 km / h at an altitude of 10750 m. Taking into account the positive results of flight tests, the serial production of the Ta-152H-0 began in November, and from January 1945 - and Ta-152H-1. The serial production of the Ta-152H lasted almost until the last day of the war, while the 67 machines were built.



During preparation for the implementation of the project Ta-152, Focke-Wulf attracted old prototypes, the so-called “kangaroos”, which were previously used for the FW-190C. Thus, 152 machines were prepared for Ta-5H, 4 of which became the prototype of Ta-152H-0, and the fifth, V18, became a prototype for the H-1 series. On these aircraft, the DV-603 engines replaced the Yumo-213.

The armament consisted of the motor-gun MK 108 and two MG 151 / 20 in the root of the wing. Unlike later machines, the first prototypes of the Ta-152H did not install additional wing fuel tanks inside. The “original” Ta-152V25, made according to serial documentation, was soon added to this top-five prototype. He replaced the crashed V33 / U1. The history of these prototypes looks like this.

The first one, the FW-190V33 / U1, took off in July of the 1944, shortly before the production of the experienced Ta-152H-V2. Ta-152H-0, although it was equipped with a new wing, did not have a wing fuel tank - they were going to mount it, starting with Ta-152H-1. The FW-190V33 / U1 was designed to carry out the necessary tests of the new wing, but with rounded tips of the square 23,5 square. m and span more 14,8 m.



Armament on the plane was missing. Motor DB-603G. replaced by Yumo-213-1. The wing attachment points were moved forward 400 mm, and the fuselage was extended a total of 1275 mm. In the new wing (without rounded ends), designed for the Ta-152H, there was an 3 for the fuel tank in each console, which contained the 400 l. The inner tank on the 70 l in the left wing plane was designed for the 50 МW system, which increased the Ymo-213-1 power on takeoff mode to 2050 l. with., and at altitudes of the order of 8000 meters to 1800 hp Applied jet exhaust pipes created at a height of almost 220 kg of additional thrust. Almost 600 l of fuel was placed in the fuselage tank, which was located under the cockpit. Next to it was a place for the 85-liter cylinder of the GM1 system for nitrous oxide, which allowed at heights of the order of 10000 m to increase the power to 1738 hp.

Unfortunately for the firm and the entire Ta-152H program, the new FW-190V33 / U1 was split on the 36 minute of the second flight. The cause of the disaster has not been established. The second experienced FW-190С, who participated in the work on Ta-152Н, received the designation FW-190V30 / U1. He performed his first flight in August 1944. Unlike the V33 / U1, it had a standard engine mount and a wing without fuel tanks. He repeated the “career” of his predecessor - the car crashed on August 23.

The third, V29 / U1, was ready one month after the release of the three remaining experienced Ta-152H-VЗ, V4 and V5. The cabin was airtight with front and rear armored bulkheads, side panels and the floor. The MK103 cannon with 80 cartridges, whose barrel was pulled out through the Kok propeller, as well as two wing MG 151 / 20, with ammunition in 175 cartridges for each barrel, was installed as a weapon on the plane. The first flight took place on September 23, and from November 3 V29 / U1 began flight tests.

Prototypes of FW-190V33 / U1, V30 / U1 in total have flown 32 h 52 min. The trials took place in Langenhagen with great difficulties both because of bad weather and because of the frequent raids of American bombers in the winter of 1944-1945. The two remaining FW-190C, V18 / U2 and V32 / U1 with wings from "H-0" and "H-1", were put to the test in the middle of autumn 1944. The V18 with the Yumo-213E-1 engine was broken on the second test day. The second car has already been converted for the program Ta-152. It was equipped with the Yumo-213F engine and it did not have weapons.

After another three weeks, it was equipped with Yumo-213-1, giving it the designation FW-190V32 / U2. They put the wing gun MG 151 / 20 and central - MG 213. Ta-152V25, participating in tests instead of FW-190V33 / U1, received severe damage. During the repair, they installed a wing designed for the FW-190V32 / U1. After repair, the car flew around in December 1944-th. Ta-152H-1 differed from the variant H-0 only in the presence of wing tanks. They had Yumo-213-1 engines, an XK 108 MK cannon with 90 cartridges and two MG 151 / 20 guns in the roots of the wing (see 175 cartridges per barrel). Pilot and motor defended armor weighing 150 kg.

The capacity of the fuel tanks in the fuselage was 590 l. There was also a hanging tank with a capacity of 300 l. The all-weather version of the Ta-152H-0 / R11 was notable for replacing the cylinder GM-1 with the tank МW-50, necessary to force the motor at low altitudes. These vehicles were considered "escort fighters".



The empty weight of the Ta-152H-0 was 3860 kg, the take-off weight was 4730 kg, and the Ta-152H-1 had wing tanks, 5200 kg. The main serial version was Ta-152H-1 / R11 (tank МW 50 and cylinder GМ1). Despite a significant increase in flight range using wing tanks, the Luftwaffe leadership considered it insufficient.

Therefore, at the beginning of April, the Ta-1945H-152 fighters were equipped with another 1-liter tank behind the cabin. To ensure centering, a cylinder with GM-280 and a counterweight in 1 kg were installed on the engine mount. These machines received the code Ta-10H-152 / B1. The Ta-31H-152 variant had improved radio equipment, originally planned for the H-2. In mid-December 1, the Technical Department froze all the work on this series.

The possibility of installation on Ta-152 24-cylinder Yumo-222E or 222F aircraft engines with a three-speed two-stage supercharger was considered, however, due to the shutdown of work on these engines, the projects remained unrealized. Until the end of February, the 1945 of the year was actively worked out by the Ta-152H with the engine DВ-603Е and improved booking. Another option was Ta-152H-10 - reconnaissance modification based on H-1. Its prototype was Ta-152V26. In January, a plan was drawn up for the release of twenty intelligence officers on a monthly basis starting in May 1945. This aircraft had a range of 1200 km at a speed of 600 km / h at an altitude of 10000 meters. The maximum speed at the specified height reached 690 km / h.

All of the shops in Cottbus went 67 Ta-152. Meanwhile, on “Focke-Wolfe,” they began designing the Ta-152A. Its design was based on the early FW-190А-8, which made it possible to accelerate its development in the series. For Ta-152A, we developed documentation only for a new wing with an area of ​​19,5 square. m, as well as on the hood and the engine cover with closed output headers. The aircraft was supposed to equip the engine Yumo-XNUMHA. The armament included a pair of 213-mm MG 20 / 151 cannons above the engine and two in the wing roots, as well as two 20-mm 30 MCs in the wing consoles.

However, the Ta-152-1, a variant of the heavy fighter, was supposed to be equipped with the 103 MK motor-gun, which required the installation of the Yumo-213C engine. In the process of designing the Ta-152A, the XK 108 MK gun was replaced with the 151 / 20 MG, ​​with a higher rate of fire. However, due to the numerous flaws in the Yumo-213 engines, especially the “C” model adapted for the installation of a motor-gun, this project remained on paper.

Then Focke-Wulf began preparing documentation for Ta-152В, which required much more design changes than Ta-152А. Ta-152 In one time was considered with interchangeable engines Yumo-213 and DВ-603, but after the adoption of Ta-152С it was chosen as a standard Yumo-213Е engine. The Luftwaffe series “B” was considered as a heavy fighter, which was caused more by armament than weight. On the Ta-152B-4, it included one 103 MK and four 20-mm, in various versions. This modification has given way to the Ta-152B-5.



The next variant received a new wing pushed forward, a hydraulic system for cleaning the chassis, the Yumo-213-1 engine and three MK-103 guns. The total capacity of the tanks reached 1060 liters, in addition in the tail section they placed an 85-liter cylinder for the GM1. The first prototype aircraft of the B-5 sub-series took off in March 1945. In addition to the three prototypes, this option is no longer available.

Simultaneously with the Ta-152B-5, the Ta-152E reconnaissance was developed under the same power unit. In November 1944, the work on it was discontinued in favor of the new one - Ta-152E. Both of these variants carried one MK 103 or 108 gun and a MG 151 / 20 pair. Modification of the "E-2" was distinguished by the presence of GМ1. It was planned to produce 630 machines from the beginning of March until the end of the year. In February, these plans turned and focused on the variant H-10.

After the refusal of RLM from the serial production of the Ta-152 versions "A" and "B", the Focke-Wulf began to implement the Ra 1 program, i.e. medium-height fighter Ta-152С. In the course of the meeting held at the Luft Champion in November 1944, it was stated that the highest priority was given to He-162, Me-262, Ar-234 and Do-335. Accordingly, Daimler-Benzu was offered to continue production of DВ-603 for Ta-152. Until the fall of the 1944, preference was given to the Yumo-213 engine, as the main one for the Ta-152. The variant with this aircraft engine was officially called the Ta-152C. By the end of September, the first experienced Ta-1944-V152 / U21 received the DВ-1В engine, a couple of MG 603 / 151 guns in the fuselage and two in the roots of the wing.

For the production of new fighters chose "ATG" in Leipzig and "Zibel" in Halle. The first production cars were to leave the production lines in April of the 1945. Since May, they planned to connect to the release of the aircraft factory "Fieseler" in Kassel-Waldau. The Ta-152C was considered by the Luftwaffe as a “hunter”. The aircraft as a whole was similar to the Ta-152В, except for minor changes caused by the use of a lighter DB-603. The equipment was standard and included, among other things, autopilot and instruments for blind flights. Behind the cab was mounted tank under the MW 50.



DB-603EM developed on take-off mode to 1800 l. with., and in the afterburner mode - 2230 hp in comparison with 2100 hp DB-603L, which significantly increased flight data at low altitudes. The maximum speed with the use of МW50 at the ground reached 590 km / h. However, the DV-603L had the best altitude characteristics. Work on the Ta-152-2 with improved radio equipment quickly ceased. The designers focused on the Ta-152C-3, which was distinguished by the fuselage MK 103 gun instead of the МK 108 on the Ta-152C-1. Intelligence modification called Ta-152-11 / R11. Work on it stopped in February 1945, as the scout chose Ta-152H-10. They calculated in Germany, as if not noticing the approaching collapse of the Third Reich, to produce a double training Ta-152S-1. Preparation for the production of the Ta-152C was still in its initial stages, when the Allied forces occupied the factories intended for the production of this aircraft.

Virtually nothing is known about the combat use of the Ta-152C. In addition, by the end of 1945, there were three Ta-301C-152 / R1 in Stab / Jg 11. In the short time that the Ta-152H was produced, the planes managed to get only into the JG 301 fighter squadron. In November, on the basis of the Rehli center, for the military tests of the Ta-1944 fighters and the retraining of pilots for it, the test squad headed by Bruno Stolle was formed in November. In early January 152, the first production aircraft arrived at Rechlin.

At the same time, Stolle, who received new cars, noted that on some planes aileron control was not adjusted. Most likely, this was the result of sabotage at the aircraft factory in Zorau. After replacing the defective units, the aircraft were transferred to the Alteno airfield, and the retraining of the JG 301 pilots began.

The group, who trained in Alteno, lost 5 machines by the end of the next month, mainly due to the ignition of the engine. According to the reports of the pilots who managed to leave the burning plane, the flame initially burst out from under the bonnet, on the left side of the engine.

The reason was in the proximity of the exhaust manifolds and pipelines of the cooling system, which caused burnouts and ignition of the coolant consisting of water and glycol. These cases became the reason for the suspension of the retraining process for some time. All the pilots flying the new fighter claimed that the piloting was very light, except for take-off, when difficulties with the landing gear were encountered (the problem was solved on the Ta-152H-1).



In the course of retraining, pilots of the 10 squadron JG 301 performed only one combat sortie on the Ta-152, during which, together with other air defense units, they reflected the bombing raids on Berlin. It is significant that all of the Ta-152H-0 returned, while a large number of other types of fighters in this battle were shot down.

February 2 commander JG 301 Hagedorn, during the flight from Cottbus to Alteno, on Ta-152H reached a height of 13200 m and exceeded the maximum speed. It should be emphasized that the retraining of pilots on the Ta-152 sometimes lasted only 20 minutes, and the pilot left his first combat flight on a new machine after several training flights. Joseph Keil recalled that the sortie on the Ta-152H with a duration of 40 minutes. after three training flights he performed with a total flight of less than an hour and a half. Julius Berliner called his retraining full-time, without any training, in the air he flew from the airfield of the Cottbus plant in Alteno. This became possible only for one reason: he had the experience of flying the FW-190D. The pilots noted the unusually short take-off of the fighter, it was enough for this 300 meters. But the mileage after landing was, on the contrary, very large.



Meanwhile, the pilots continued combat work. February 21 Ta-152 flew I. Keil from 10 / JG301, and an American bomber shot down over Berlin. Thus, he became the first pilot to shoot down the Flying Fortress on the Ta-152. The next victory Kale scored 1 March, this time he shot down the American P-51 "Mustang". 10 April Joseph Keil on Ta-152H entered the fray with 15 P-47, and managed to knock down one of them. All in all, Keil on the Ta-152 scored five out of ten of his victories. The pilot noted that the German fighter surpasses the American Р-51 and Р-47 in speed and maneuverability characteristics.

14 On April 1945, two Tempest fighters from the New Zealand unit, which took off to attack the train station at Lüwigslust, were intercepted by the Ta-152 troika. Y. Sattler, having lost control over the new fighter, crashed into the ground, but managed to jump with a parachute. In the air battle that began after that at the tops of the trees of V. Reschke, showing the excellent maneuverability of Ta-152, one Tempest was shot down.

On April 24, the JG 301 fighters flew to reconnoitre the Soviet troops stationed in Zossen, after which the Germans planned to strike at our positions with 70 aircraft. Stab / JG 301 was made up of Reschke, Stahla, Loos, Keila and Blum. They were supposed to cover the Focke-Wulf, storming positions. The weather was cloudy, and the planes sometimes lost their visibility, going into the clouds. Having flown out of the next such cloud, they unexpectedly found the Yak-9 group going by a crossing path. Interestingly, the German pilots in the post-flight report called them LaGG-9. In this battle, Reschke shot down two Soviet fighters. Two more shot down Walter Loos. However, Stahl and Sattler were shot down. Reschke confessed that Soviet cars turned out to be more serious opponents than American cars. On the evening of April 30, all the remaining JG 301 aircraft flew over to the airfield of Letsk, where on May 7 they were captured by Canadian forces.





Sources:
Firsov A. Focke-Wulf Ta 152 // Wings of the Luftwaffe. 1994. No.4. C. 149-155.
Ivanov S. Focke-Wulf Fw 190D and Ta 152 // War in the air. No.82. C.19-56.
Borisov Yu. High Fighter Fw 190D Ta 152. M .: Exprint, 2005. C. 35-48.
Borisov Yu. The Last of the Mohicans // Wings of the Motherland. 2004. No.4. C.21-25.
Obukhovia V., Kulbaka S., Sidorenko S. Planes of the Second World War. Minsk: Potpourri, 2003. C.200-201.
Author:
Articles from this series:
High-rise "Focke-Wulf" (FW-190D).
170 comments
Ad

Subscribe to our Telegram channel, daily additional materials that do not get on the site: https://t.me/topwar_ru

Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. Duke
    Duke 15 June 2016 05: 46
    +21
    A few pictures


    Prototype Ta-152





    Trophy

  2. Kenneth
    Kenneth 15 June 2016 06: 49
    .
    What an ugly plane. Truly gloomy Teutonic genius.
    1. DrVintorez
      DrVintorez 15 June 2016 06: 54
      +9
      On the lover.
    2. Aleksandr72
      Aleksandr72 15 June 2016 07: 18
      +18
      In many ways, this "ugliness" of the Ta-152 is a forced step. While designing the FW-190D version of the Focke-Wulf, Kurt Tank was faced with the fact that when installing a longer and heavier water-cooled engine, the alignment of the aircraft was greatly disturbed. There was only one way out - to lengthen the rear of the fuselage. But the requirement to preserve the design of the original FW-190A as much as possible in order to simplify the development in production and maintain production volumes of the extremely important fighter aircraft put an end to the development of a new fuselage. Then Kurt Tank made a non-trivial decision to insert a wild in terms of aerodynamics insert into the fuselage in front of the keel, which immediately gave the aircraft its characteristic ugly appearance when viewed from the side. The same insert from the FW-190D migrated to the Ta-152, as well as another also non-trivial technical solution: when designing the nose of the fuselage for a new engine, it turned out that there was no room for the oil tank - the engine mount hindered its installation, and design (and especially to manufacture) a new curved modification of the oil tank had neither the time nor the opportunity, and then the strut of the engine mount was passed right through the oil tank. The idea is simple - 1944, fighters do not last long in battle (both aircraft and pilots), so there is no point in complicating the design - they were assembled once at the factory and do not touch it again during operation. I read about in the Wings of the Motherland magazine 25 years ago.
      FW-190D - side view, pay attention to the direct insert into the fuselage in front of the keel:
      1. rubin6286
        rubin6286 15 June 2016 18: 52
        +3
        There are no comrades for taste and color. Needless to say, not about ugliness, but about rational design. In this sense, the car is quite successful.
    3. oborzevatel
      oborzevatel 15 June 2016 08: 52
      +11
      Quote: Kenneth
      What an ugly plane. Truly gloomy Teutonic genius.

      Let me disagree.
      Although I'm not a fan.
      LTX are wonderful.
      1. Verdun
        Verdun 15 June 2016 09: 52
        +3
        Quote: oborzevatel
        LTX are wonderful.

        Yes, the LTX is really good, but all the piston aircraft of that time rested on the technological capabilities of the production of piston engines. For example, the Bf-109K, which by its characteristics was no worse than the Ta-152, had a motor resource for one take-off. Then I had to sort out. The Americans went the other way. They increased the working volume of the engines, as a result of which their cars turned out to be powerful and fast, but heavy and not too maneuverable. We can say that Soviet aviation was in a winning position. On the one hand, not bad and quite powerful motors were developed - the same ASh-82FN. On the other hand, the success in aerodynamics and the talent of designers allowed to make these machines fast and maneuverable within the existing capacity, without squeezing the latter out of the engines.
        1. Todessichel
          Todessichel 15 June 2016 10: 51
          -7
          Ours then just squeezed out of the engines all that is possible and not possible.
          The power limit has been reached for a La with a forced American export engine for reconstructing the Shvetsov and Yak with its VKHNUMX-hispanosyuiza.
          After departure, melted candles were exchanged for la and oil was drained from the pistons.
          Overheating of the engine sometimes occurred before takeoff.
          The lack of power of the VK105 was compensated by the absence of any booking on the yak aircraft, which cost the lives of many of our pilots.
          And there was still not enough power.
          1. Todessichel
            Todessichel 15 June 2016 11: 31
            +1
            I see gentlemen, I’ll win again, tumble down the cons.
            Who is to blame for the fact that the 2 main motors for fighter wright cyclone and hispanosyuiza became the main for our design genius and consider the only source of mares for aircraft?
            Shvetsov never brought to mind the 18-cylinder m71, with its cliffs of rods, etc., which became the sentence to the killer of Chkalov and-185, when the compressor failed.
            One of the modernizations of the distant ancestor of the hispanosyuise of the VK107 motor was delayed so much that the aircraft was ready only in the summer of the 45th year and did not go into series.
            The chronic lack of thrust-weight ratio pursued our aircraft industry until the end of the war, just like the production culture.
            The last truth to the beginning of the 44th seriously pulled.
            1. Aleksandr72
              Aleksandr72 15 June 2016 12: 03
              +22
              Valery Chkalov died while testing the I-180 aircraft. The only thing that has in common with the I-185 is that both of these aircraft were fighters under a radial air-cooled engine and were created by the wonderful Russian-Soviet designer N.N. Polikarpov - the creator of the I-15 and I-16, the "king of fighters". December 15, 1939, when during the next test flight, on the I-180 plane crashed V.P. Chkalov, neither the M-71 engine, nor the I-185 aircraft were even conceived. The I-180 was equipped with an unfinished M-88 engine designed by S.K. Tumansky, whose development was based on the license of the French engine Gnome-Rhône Mistral Major. It was a single-row engine, while the Shvetsovsky M-71 is a two-row "star". Therefore, neither the I-85 nor the M-71 could in any way be responsible for the death of Chkalov.
              For the information of Todessichel: on the basis of the licensed American Wright Cyclone engine (Wright R-1820), the M-25 engine was created and mass-produced (installed on the I-15 and I-16). The Shvetsov M-62 and M-63, although they had much in common with the M-25, are no longer copies of the Wright Cyclone, they have in common that they are all single-row star-shaped air-cooled ones. M-82 (ASh-82) is generally an independent development - a 14-cylinder two-row "star". The Soviet version of the licensed "Hispano-Suiza 12Ybrs" (Hispano-Suiza 12Y) was the M-100 engine (installed on the SB), and its development was the Klimovsk M-103, M-105 (VK-105 - the most massive), M-106 (unsuccessful), M-107 (VK-107) - the same one that was being refined for a long time and since 1944 was installed on the Yak-3U and Yak-9U (the latter was produced in a relatively large series), the most powerful and most fireproof VK-108 (with which the Yak-3U had only one successful flight, during which the maximum horizontal flight speed of 745 km / h was reached - the highest for Soviet piston aircraft during the war).
              I don’t put a minus, in view of the fact that you don’t own at all the material that you are going to judge in the comments.
              1. Todessichel
                Todessichel 15 June 2016 12: 09
                .
                Here's a scream.
                We look forward to continuing and new versions.
                I've read this more than once.
                Sources in neta sea and the sea is distorted too.
                Who is bigger?
                Here, each has its own masters and scientists, and each with its own truth.
                The main message and thought in my comments however I hope you understand?
                That the power of the converted engines was chrogically lacking?
                It’s not the details, but the general sense that does not change even with your corrections.
                Having read the pedia wik, here everyone in 5 minutes will become a specialist, stupidly copying the text)

                And the cons to me.
                1. timyr
                  timyr 15 June 2016 12: 29
                  +7
                  And who would make these engines. In order to have powerful engines: you need to have a powerful design school and workers with 20 years of experience and more machines. None of this happened until the 30s. You should be surprised that in general they were able to start the production of engines.
                  1. Todessichel
                    Todessichel 15 June 2016 12: 37
                    -4
                    I do not argue.
                    All right
                    That is why I was somewhat surprised by the comment above, where Mus Verdun said the opposite, that they did not squeeze everything out of the engines.
                    It is not.
                    Squeezed everything and everything.
                    There is never much thrust ratio.
                  2. Uncle Murzik
                    Uncle Murzik 15 June 2016 12: 57
                    +3
                    Hitler also wondered why the Wehrmacht was beating the Red Army! laughing he believed that the USSR was a "colossus with feet of clay" belay
                    1. Todessichel
                      Todessichel 15 June 2016 14: 02
                      -6
                      Why Hitler bent down and so everyone in general terms understands.
                      Your sarcasm is not clear.
                      I state objective things, which are pointless to dispute in view of their historical, technically substantiated evidence.
                      Rejection of these things, in spite of their obvious objectivity (that is, minus my posts) drives me into a stupor.
                      People who think they are adequate are ready to set cons based on their personally hostile attitude, ignoring and leaving out the essence of the meaning of the above.
                      Falling, gentlemen ...
                      In a corkscrew ...
                    2. rubin6286
                      rubin6286 15 June 2016 19: 14
                      -7
                      The Wehrmacht was not beaten by the Red Army, but by the Soviet people. The Red Army lost its combat effectiveness. Of the 5,2 million people by August 1941, 3,6 million were captured. The party raised the people to fight and he defeated the enemy at the cost of huge casualties.
                    3. Mikhail Matyugin
                      Mikhail Matyugin 16 June 2016 00: 56
                      0
                      Quote: Uncle Murzik
                      Hitler also wondered why the Wehrmacht was beating the red army! laughing he thought that the USSR was a "colossus with feet of clay"

                      Unfortunately for our people for almost 3 of the year the situation was reverse. But aviation was not doing well either.
                2. Amurets
                  Amurets 15 June 2016 13: 04
                  +1
                  Quote: Todessichel
                  The main message and thought in my comments however I hope you understand?
                  That the power of the converted engines was chrogically lacking?
                  It’s not the details, but the general sense that does not change even with your corrections.
                  Having read the pedia wik, here everyone in 5 minutes will become a specialist, stupidly copying the text)

                  And what is the general meaning? What power were purchased engines and with what power were they produced in the USSR?
                  1. Todessichel
                    Todessichel 15 June 2016 13: 56
                    -4
                    Get back to basics instead of asking weird questions
                    1. Amurets
                      Amurets 15 June 2016 15: 43
                      +3
                      Quote: Todessichel
                      Get back to basics instead of asking weird questions

                      To what origins? Just questions about competence. So carefully read the magazines engine 3; 4; (39; 40) issues for 2005. This is according to Hispano-Suize 12. How was purchased, why purchased. All characteristics of aircraft engines, with graphs of altitude, power and other data can be found in the book "Aircraft motors of foreign air forces". Moscow, 1939 year of publication. It is available on the network, and free of charge. Three-volume ICE edition edited by Professor Orlin 1983-1985. The fourth volume "ICE systems is not particularly needed. It "only" describes such insignificant systems as the lubrication system, the power supply system and other systems. This is called SOURCES. And believe me that you can polish the structure of the internal combustion engine, bring to the ideal stationary and marine power plants with efficiency above 50% percent, but fundamentally nothing will change.
                      1. Todessichel
                        Todessichel 15 June 2016 16: 03
                        .
                        Dear, the volume of work done by you is amazing.
                        Just great.
                        But ...
                        You hear a ringing, an unimaginable hotel, he goes.
                        I grilled about the origins of the ensuing discourse, in not, here's a laugh, engines.
                        I wrote as an example hastily out of my head, and not rummaging through the bowels of the Internet, where, no doubt, there is an exhaustive amount of information.
                        I can do that too, only the point is not the point.
                        Going back to the source meant scrolling through the posts up!
                        Your calculations are undoubtedly interesting and informative.
                        But they relate to a slightly different topic.
                        Alas.
                  2. AK64
                    AK64 15 June 2016 15: 21
                    0
                    And what is the general meaning? What power were purchased engines and with what power were they produced in the USSR?


                    The question is ridiculous: both Wright-Cyclone and Hispan were purchased back in the 30s. And squeezed the last drops from these long-dead cows until 47-48 years.
                    While the same Wright Cyclone has already become the Wright R-3350 Duplex-Cyclone, with its 3000 mares. Or for example the Pratt & Whitney R-2800 Double Wasp with its 2500 mares.

                    So what's the argument? Not strong enough engines Americans sold? Or is the tsar to blame - he hasn’t prepared buns even for 75 years?
                    1. Todessichel
                      Todessichel 15 June 2016 16: 04
                      -2
                      Here.
                      There is nothing to add.
                    2. Amurets
                      Amurets 15 June 2016 16: 19
                      +2
                      Quote: AK64

                      So what's the argument? Not strong enough engines Americans sold? Or is the tsar to blame - he hasn’t prepared buns even for 75 years?

                      There is no dispute. We bought the best at that time, but Spain was bought "raw", this is one thing. A weak oil refining and petrochemical industry, and low-quality fuels and lubricants are the second. And the most important thing is the Winter War with Finland, when the USSR was kicked out of the League of Nations and supplies of dual-use equipment and technologies for the defense industry from Western countries, except Germany, were stopped. Before the war in the United States there were negotiations on the supply of equipment for aircraft and aircraft engine factories, but I repeat again that the war with the Finns disrupted the supplies, since the Americans they decided to remain neutral, and the French, British and Swedes considered the USSR an aggressor.
                      1. AK64
                        AK64 15 June 2016 16: 27
                        0
                        You either remove the cross - or put on your pants.
                        The USSR did not have good motors: you just need to understand and admit it, and not tell tales about "brilliant designers" and other nonsense.
                      2. Amurets
                        Amurets 15 June 2016 17: 07
                        +6
                        Quote: AK64
                        The USSR did not have good motors: you just need to understand and admit it, and not tell tales about "brilliant designers" and other nonsense.

                        And where I tell you fairy tales about "brilliant designers" I'm telling you about the fact that the licensed engine was adjusted, because they also had flaws. For the same French-made Spanish, the crankcase and pistons cracked, crankshafts broke, there were other defects. Roughly the same defects were in engines of Rybinsk assembly. In any engine there are miscalculations and shortcomings, regardless of the country of origin. And the fact that there were no high-quality fuels and lubricants in the USSR, nobody hides and it is difficult to achieve reliable operation of the engine on low-grade fuels and lubricants. On Lend-Lease equipment and fuels and lubricants were imported from the USA . And what have constructors to do with it?
                      3. AK64
                        AK64 15 June 2016 17: 21
                        -1
                        And where am I telling you tales about "brilliant designers" I tell you. I'm talking about the fact that the licensed engine was adjusted, because they also had flaws.

                        You stop telling tales: the main method of "bringing" was banal forcing, and nothing more. Increase in cylinder volume, degrees of compression, etc.
                        They were "brought up" to the point that the VK-107 (this is the same Hispan, 200 times "modified") had a passport lifespan of 25 hours (evaluate !!!)
                        Well, this is still Soviet optimism. But the Germans would have him ... they would have just set 0.0 hours. And they would deforce him.

                        Or Shvetsovskie motors: he did not "bring" anything - he simply tried (following the example of the same amers) to put the stars in TWO rows.

                        The rest is not interesting.
                      4. kugelblitz
                        kugelblitz 15 June 2016 17: 56
                        +4
                        Many did double stars, not just Americans. Both Bristol and Gnome Ron. And in general, it is not such an easy task to make a double star, as it seems at first glance.

                        The Germans DB and Jumo, too, in the end did not differ by a large resource, a natural phenomenon for highly boosted engines, like Wright had problems on B-29 bombers, which later migrated to the B-36 and B-50.

                        By the way, the Germans could not really bring the Jumo-222 to condition, although in the future it had good performance, like the Jumo 223 two-stroke aircraft diesel engine. It was these engines that were supposed to notice inverted V from DB in the future.

                        The Gnome-Rons also did not differ in reliability, there was even a two-row star from the Spanish-Suiz, but did not have time before surrender.

                        Reading your post, you might think that creating an engine is a relatively easy task. Well, take a look at the insanity of Bristol Hercules. wassat

                      5. AK64
                        AK64 15 June 2016 18: 41
                        -1
                        Reading your post, you might think that creating an engine is a relatively easy task. Well, take a look at the insanity of Bristol Hercules.


                        You can "think" anything you want: I cannot "think" to forbid. Here is the comrade below me already habitually sews Russophobia, and in one bottle with anti-Sovietism (well, is not it an anecdote? After all, every Soviet is a Russophobe, and every Russian is an anti-Soviet.)

                        I wrote directly: there was no "finishing" of licenses. The motors were ready. And there were "modifications" and modifications: mostly forcing (bringing the design to the full limit).

                        Well, the fact that building a double star is not an easy task, it can be seen from the agony of ASH-82 and M-71: it would be simple, so that you would suffer so much?

                        In general, take the trouble not to sew business. I understand that this is a tempting "rhetorical technique" ("Yes, you are a Russophobe \ anti-Soviet \ liberal \ .... !!!")
                        But reasonable people should refrain from such tricks.
                      6. kugelblitz
                        kugelblitz 15 June 2016 18: 52
                        +2
                        Quote: AK64
                        I wrote directly: there was no "finishing" of licenses.

                        It was you so in vain. Wright's body kit was attached to the AS-73, I agree, but the AS-82 has its own design based on the piston group. And then I look Direct injection of what it was worth for example.
                        Mikulin’s motor, for example, also based on BMW had a partial idea, but in the end there was nothing left of it.

                        In general, Wright's engines were very successful, the Americans themselves squeezed out all the juices, even comparing them with Pratt & Whitney Wasp, Wright was a cut above. In Europe, airmen were also essentially based on Bristol, or Wright.
                      7. DrVintorez
                        DrVintorez 17 June 2016 12: 20
                        0
                        Quote: AK64
                        Here is the comrade below I’m already familiar with Russophobia

                        familiar to you? this is probably an occasion to think.
                      8. DrVintorez
                        DrVintorez 15 June 2016 18: 09
                        0
                        Tell me, do you hate everything Soviet and Russian so much for personal reasons or for religious convictions? you just have hatred and contempt for everything Russian / Soviet / Russian in almost every post. What do you have there: policemen, "a billion shot by Stalin personally" or, perhaps, "a million raped German women"?
                      9. rubin6286
                        rubin6286 15 June 2016 19: 21
                        +2
                        What do you know about Soviet engines and their designers? I suggest you study this issue yourself. There were licensed samples. but there were also successful developments. For example, the AM-38, mounted on the IL-2, was completely copied by the Americans.
                      10. The comment was deleted.
                  3. rubin6286
                    rubin6286 15 June 2016 19: 15
                    0
                    An article about Ta-152.And here are Soviet engines. You need to write on the topic, and not about.
                3. Operator
                  Operator 15 June 2016 15: 54
                  +5
                  You nine American Wright R-1820 cylinders from fourteen can you distinguish the cylinders of the Soviet M-82? Then why your blah blah blah?

                  The power of the M-82 was quite sufficient for the La-7 with three 20-mm cannons to tear the Mustangs, Fokkers, Messerschmidts and Tanks like a tusik heating pad.
                  1. Todessichel
                    Todessichel 15 June 2016 16: 09
                    -9
                    It is funny and sad at the same time.
                    14 cylinders still need to be forced to work together, which Shvetsov could not do on the i71 ...
                    Once again I repeat, power is never enough.
                    Or the same Shvetsov and the designers of the L. apparatus tried to make diggers and planes better from nothing to do.
                    So with VK 107 and 108 and M 71, according to your logic, they did it out of boredom?
                    Do you think if a more powerful motor would be used for it?
                    If this M71 was reliable, it would probably have flown in the company with the i185.
                    And pilots on yaks would not die from a bullet, because they flew even without bulletproof glass
                    And so ...
                  2. AK64
                    AK64 15 June 2016 16: 31
                    -4
                    You can distinguish nine cylinders of the American Wright R-1820 from fourteen cylinders of the Soviet M-82? Then why your blah blah blah?

                    The power of the M-82 was quite sufficient for the La-7 with three 20-mm cannons to tear the Mustangs, Fokkers, Messerschmidts and Tanks like a tusik heating pad.


                    Kindergarten....

                    But by the way, I realized: Your grandfather was apparently a political hand? Before the battle, did he tell political information to the fighters so that they could run faster into the attack?
                    1. Operator
                      Operator 15 June 2016 17: 56
                      +6
                      The words "political instructor", "political information" and "pioneer camp" in Russian are written without a hyphen - you should correct them in your English-Russian dictionary so as not to be fired (it is not convenient in front of your curator from the CIA) bully
                    2. kugelblitz
                      kugelblitz 15 June 2016 18: 44
                      +5
                      For starters, you would ask that the Shvetsovskih motors ASH-82 had a reduced piston stroke, which means another crankshaft! By the end of their life cycle, they reached the same limit as the prototype, and similar sores, although the AS-63 was placed on corn, and the AS-82 on the IL-14 and Mi-4 helicopters, the engine was good and reliable. But the ASH-73, like the Wright R-3350 Duplex-Cyclone, had similar sores. For example, the C-97 Stratofreighter was called the world's best three-engine aircraft, because constantly one engine failed in flight! wassat And the Ansha generally refused to put the ASH-73 on passenger aircraft.
                  3. The comment was deleted.
                  4. rubin6286
                    rubin6286 15 June 2016 19: 24
                    0
                    It is not necessary to simplify. The possibility of victory in aerial combat is determined not only by the power of the aircraft engine, but by the perfection of the design as a whole and the level of pilot training.
                    1. Mikhail Matyugin
                      Mikhail Matyugin 16 June 2016 01: 04
                      +1
                      Quote: rubin6286
                      The possibility of victory in aerial combat is determined not only by the power of the aircraft engine, but by the perfection of the design as a whole and the level of pilot training.

                      Firstly, victory is determined by the conditions of the beginning of the battle and the disposition occupied by the parties.

                      Secondly, the general level of training of pilots and flown pairs.

                      And the technical possibilities go further.
              2. rubin6286
                rubin6286 15 June 2016 19: 08
                0
                You write everything correctly. There is only a slight difference between what is written and what actually happened. VK-3 PF-9 engines were installed on the Yak-105 and Yak-2U, precisely because neither the M-106 nor the M-107 were reliable. The potential for modernization of the M-105 by 1945 was completely exhausted.
            2. qwert
              qwert 15 June 2016 15: 57
              +7
              Quote: Todessichel
              I see gentlemen, I’ll win again, tumble down the cons.

              Quote: Todessichel
              The power limit has been reached for a La with a forced American export engine for reconstructing the Shvetsov and Yak with its VKHNUMX-hispanosyuiza.

              Well, if you froze nonsense, what is it to plus, or what? (by the way I didn’t minus myself).
              ASH-82 and M-105 differed from the pro-destroyers as well as the T-34 tank from the BT-2 (which was just a licensed reproduction of the Kristi tank). Is it possible to say that t-34 is the maximum squeezed out of BT-2?
              1. Todessichel
                Todessichel 15 June 2016 17: 44
                -5
                Draw strange parallels.
                Well, then this: would T34 appear if it were not for his ancestor from Christie?
                Clear now?
                1. Vlad.by
                  Vlad.by 20 October 2016 23: 09
                  0
                  Uh, excuse me, we’ll agree that Alfa Romeo is the cart wheel squeezed to the limit. You are careful with allegories ...
            3. rubin6286
              rubin6286 15 June 2016 19: 03
              +1
              Actually, the article is not about Yaki and La, but about the German Ta-152. Let's get better about it.
            4. V.ic
              V.ic 7 October 2016 10: 40
              0
              became the verdict for the killer of Chkalov and-185, when the compressor failed.

              Eh, "cons" are gone! I-180, firstly, and secondly what compressorare you our stratospheric ....?
          2. rubin6286
            rubin6286 15 June 2016 19: 01
            +2
            On Yak and La, like fighters from other countries, there was an armored backrest, an armored headrest, "glass" armor protecting the pilot from behind and the "forehead" of the lantern in front.
            1. Todessichel
              Todessichel 15 June 2016 19: 03
              -4
              Initially, we could.
              Fought mainly without them
        2. AK64
          AK64 15 June 2016 15: 03
          0
          Yes, ...... We can say that Soviet aviation was in a winning position. On the one hand, not bad and quite powerful motors were developed - the same ASh-82FN. On the other hand, the success in aerodynamics and the talent of designers allowed to make these machines fast and maneuverable within the existing capacity, without squeezing the latter out of the engines.


          Fasting day, Th.
          However, you are right that you can really say anything
        3. rubin6286
          rubin6286 15 June 2016 18: 57
          0
          Do you seriously believe what you wrote? The condition of the engines, Jacob and Lavochkin. Returning from the battle was even worse, because the German motor was originally made more reliable. According to the stories of mechanics. torment was plenty.
      2. avt
        avt 15 June 2016 10: 34
        +1
        Quote: oborzevatel
        LTX are wonderful.

        Well, somehow the car turned out quite well at a very decent level. Although of course .... not Focke-Wulf 190 smile Trophies also served here in the Baltic.
      3. Kenneth
        Kenneth 15 June 2016 13: 12
        0
        What is the chic of his LTX. Do not understand. In my opinion, the iron’s ability to fly is ensured by a high-tech engine and whose only task is to fire at a bomber flying at high speed and have time to knock down before the Mustangs break.

        Maybe the local Germanophiles will me again, but I generally find most German planes of the war times disgustingly ugly, starting with the U-87 and ending with Schwalba. The only bright spot was the Bf-110 until they began to hang it with antennas.
        1. Verdun
          Verdun 15 June 2016 14: 24
          +1
          Quote: Kenneth
          What is the chic of his LTX. Do not understand

          Do not forget that during the war the Germans had to create airplanes for two types of air wars, which went on as if at different levels. On the one hand, they had to confront the aviation of the USSR with its attack aircraft and dive bombers at altitudes up to 5000 meters. On the other, to intercept strategic allied bombers at high altitudes. Figuratively speaking, we needed machines capable of fighting both the Lavochkin and Thunderbolts. Solving these problems, German engineers showed themselves brilliantly. However, the concept of a universal fighter was doomed to failure precisely because of its versatility. The creations of the German aviation industry only came close in characteristics to the enemy’s machines in certain situations, but could not surpass them.
          1. Kenneth
            Kenneth 15 June 2016 14: 36
            +2
            That's what I tried to write about repeatedly
            The Germans chased two hares and missed both. Their grief is crazy. They would leave the topic of the Messerschmitts as highly maneuverable low-altitude aircraft, and heavy and armored foks, reserved for battle with bombers, would be equipped with high-altitude engines, highlighting, of course, the line of attack aircraft.
            1. Verdun
              Verdun 15 June 2016 14: 47
              0
              Quote: Kenneth
              The Germans chased two hares and missed both

              This is true. However, there are two "buts". On the one hand, you cannot be guaranteed to know in advance with whom fate will bring you in the sky. On the other hand, the Bf-109 was still inferior to the La-5 and Yaks of the best modifications. The Germans understood that the FW-190 didn’t make an absolute station wagon. That is why, when intercepting bombers, they often used mixed air groups. Messers tied the cover fighters in battle, cleared the "windows" for the attack. And the Fokkers attacked the bombers. This tactic has been the most successful.
              1. Kenneth
                Kenneth 15 June 2016 15: 00
                +2
                There are no buts. There is air defense which since 1941 has been defending against formations of heavy bombers armed with machine guns and high flying, and there is front-line aviation. All these injections are a difficulty in production and operation. Instead of a mass plane for the front and an elite for air defense, they were engaged in the development of station wagons spending resources time and money
                For which, of course, thank you
                1. Operator
                  Operator 15 June 2016 16: 05
                  +1
                  During the preparation and during WWII, the German designers could not make a single massive aircraft for the front, capable of fighting the La-7 on equal terms (if it weren’t for the shortage of aluminum in wartime, Lavochkina’s design bureau would roll out La-9).

                  There is no doubt that if the fight against high-altitude bombers of the Mikoyan and Gurevich Design Bureau on the basis of the MiG-3 were urgent for the USSR, all the praised Mustangs and Tanks would be completely devoted.
                  1. rubin6286
                    rubin6286 15 June 2016 19: 54
                    0
                    History does not tolerate the subjunctive mood. The Germans consider the FV-190 to be the "workhorse" of the Eastern Front, which was the main one there by the end of 1943, when the Junkers and Heinkels "left" gradually to the west to fight the Allied aviation. dornier, most of the Messerschmitts. As for the La-7, relatively few of them were produced. We have the most massive Il-2 and Yaki airplanes, more than any other aircraft produced, and most of all the Germans shot down attack aircraft and La-5 fighters in the war.
              2. rubin6286
                rubin6286 15 June 2016 19: 45
                -1
                You need to read Drabkin and V.Ya.Savitsky's story about flights and training battles with YAKs and La on the Me-109 G-6. This "messer" in skillful hands was better than our machines. But the longer the war, the less "skillful hands" the Germans had, and we have more.
            2. AK64
              AK64 15 June 2016 15: 31
              -8
              That's what I tried to write about repeatedly
              The Germans chased two hares and missed both. Their grief is crazy. They would leave the topic of the Messerschmitts as highly maneuverable low-altitude aircraft, and heavy and armored foks, reserved for battle with bombers, would be equipped with high-altitude engines, highlighting, of course, the line of attack aircraft.


              There are no "low-altitude" aircraft. Need not be passed off as a virtue. The Mustang would freely do anything below without getting too out of breath. If you have altitude, then you have initiative: you can choose and forestall the fight.
              And the "low" Thunderbolt was actually quite a "high-altitude" escort fighter.

              In general, these are fairy tales created in order to somehow justify the failure of the Soviet aircraft industry.
              1. tomket
                tomket 15 June 2016 16: 14
                +3
                Quote: AK64
                The Mustang would freely do everything below, not particularly out of breath.

                If "Messer" drove "Mustang" below 4 thousand, then they made it there without any problems.
                Quote: AK64
                If you have a high altitude, then you have the initiative: you can choose and end the battle.

                Oh well. MiG-3 pilots also chose where to fight them? Fights are fought mainly around bombers. If you have a system b-17 is at an altitude of 10km. then there are fights. If your attack aircraft fly above the ground, then the battles take place near the ground. Actually, work on the creation of high-altitude fighters was due to the need to carry out interceptions of high-altitude scouts. The Soviet Air Force did not need to drive the Lavochkin and Yaki under the stratosphere.
                1. AK64
                  AK64 15 June 2016 16: 40
                  -5
                  This is nonsense and fairy tales.

                  "If the messmershmites were driven ..."

                  If grandmother had yes ... But no, my grandmother. And therefore not to be her and grandfather.

                  In fact, the Mustangs were doing messers like hens: just an attack from above with going up after the attack. And no matter how many minuses you put to me, this will remain a fact.
                  1. Verdun
                    Verdun 15 June 2016 16: 54
                    +4
                    Quote: AK64
                    And no matter how many minuses you put to me, this will remain a fact.

                    The facts are that during WWII, more than seventy percent of German aircraft were lost on the eastern front. And not only according to ours, but also according to German data. And the point here is not in the minuses, but in your complete neglect of the confirmed facts. To this I would like to add that the tactics you described - hit and fled - are absolutely impossible when escorted by bombers. But this was precisely the main task of the American fighters.
                    1. AK64
                      AK64 15 June 2016 17: 13
                      -2
                      The facts are that during WWII, more than seventy percent of German aircraft were lost on the eastern front.

                      Why so little? What are they, unchristian, to regret?


                      And not only according to ours, but also according to German data.

                      Cheered ..
                      Well, give the "German data", and we'll see.

                      And the point here is not in the minuses, but in your complete neglect of the confirmed facts.

                      What are the "facts"? Fairy tales about "70%"? So after all, such "facts" are "confirmed" only in your pioneer camp.

                      To this I would like to add that the tactics you described - hit and fled - are absolutely impossible when escorted by bombers. But this was precisely the main task of the American fighters.


                      Yes, his mother ...
                      B-17s were operated at altitudes from 7000m to 10000m. Well, tell me how Messer got on the train to the "fortresses", and how did he feel there?
                      And he felt bad there - neither maneuverability nor spirit at the motor.
                      But the Mustang at 10000 km not only flew, but could fight.

                      The Mustang could "go down" (and attack the chickens below). But messers climbed up to the Mustangs much worse
                      1. Verdun
                        Verdun 15 June 2016 17: 24
                        +2
                        Quote: AK64
                        But the Mustang at 10000 km not only flew, but could fight.

                        By the way, until the British gave the Americans a license to manufacture a high-altitude engine, the Mustang was a very mediocre machine.
                        B-17s were operated at altitudes from 7000m to 10000m. Well, tell me how Messer got on the train to the "fortresses", and how did he feel there?
                        However, climbed.
                        As a result, the loss of B-17s in individual missions exceeded 25%, for example, 60 aircraft out of 291 were lost in the second raid on Schweinfurt
                        Didn’t they themselves fall?))
                      2. AK64
                        AK64 15 June 2016 18: 54
                        -1
                        By the way, until the British gave the Americans a license to manufacture a high-altitude engine, the Mustang was a very mediocre machine.


                        And what would happen if the Americans did not sell a bunch of technologies to the USSR Turnkey? Including here and motor licenses, and together with factories?

                        However, climbed.
                        As a result, the loss of B-17s in individual missions exceeded 25%, for example, 60 aircraft out of 291 were lost in the second raid on Schweinfurt
                        Didn’t they themselves fall?))

                        This is a beautiful example of the so-called lies: the case is taken when there were no Mustangs, and is given as an example of the possibilities of Messers against Mustangs.

                        Well then: a Soviet person, "what's wrong with that?"

                        Messers could climb to a height of B-17, and even a little higher (the bombers did put pressure on the bombers). But they could no longer fight against the Mustangs at this height: they barely maneuvered, and the motors did not have enough breathing. And Mustang where Messer had a limit - there was another 3 km of reserve.
                      3. The comment was deleted.
                      4. rubin6286
                        rubin6286 15 June 2016 20: 04
                        0
                        The Germans were not at all stupid and perfectly understood the tactics of air combat and the capabilities of machines. The piston "Messer" at an altitude of 10 thousand meters "suffocated", so they used jet Me-262 and missile Me-163. and piston "Me" and "FV" intercepted at altitudes of 5-7 thousand meters. Here they had to overcome the escort P-51, P-47 and Spitfires.
                      5. Mikhail Matyugin
                        Mikhail Matyugin 16 June 2016 21: 00
                        0
                        Quote: rubin6286
                        therefore, they used jet Me-262 and rocket Me-163.

                        You seem to be competent in aviation, and so you present yourself. Well, read about the combat successes of German jet engineers, especially "Komet", you will be surprised.
                  2. rubin6286
                    rubin6286 15 June 2016 19: 58
                    +1
                    They fight for cars. and the people in them. The matter was not in the babin, but mu ... k was sitting in the cabin. 2Do "can the one who is better prepared.
                2. The comment was deleted.
                3. rubin6286
                  rubin6286 15 June 2016 19: 56
                  +1
                  In 1944, the Yak-9, La-5 and Airacobra were raised to intercept the German high-altitude reconnaissance aircraft of Moscow's air defense. There were no others, alas.
                  1. Verdun
                    Verdun 15 June 2016 22: 40
                    +2
                    Quote: rubin6286
                    Others, alas, were not.

                    How was it not? Not only did all the remaining MiG-3s be pulled to the capital, but also the Mk-IX received from the British Spitfire were sent there. By the way, the Allies considered the MiG-3 an underestimated machine, the capabilities of which were not fully understood by Soviet pilots. That was just another matter. At the initial stage of the war, the capabilities of the MiG-3 did not meet the needs of the front well.
              2. Verdun
                Verdun 15 June 2016 16: 32
                +8
                Quote: AK64
                The Mustang would freely do everything below, not particularly out of breath.

                After the war, the Normandie-Niemen pilots who returned to their homeland in their Yak-3 conducted trial battles with various Allied vehicles. Including with "Mustangs". And they killed everyone. It was after this that the Yak-3 received the unofficial title of the best WWII fighter. It was only later, when they began to rewrite history, began to argue that the "Mustangs" and "Spitfires" were cooler. Read what the same Gallay, who had a chance to test, including American cars, writes in his memoirs - you will learn a lot of useful things.
                1. AK64
                  AK64 15 June 2016 16: 49
                  -5
                  After the war, the Normandie-Niemen pilots who returned to their homeland in their Yak-3 conducted trial battles with various Allied vehicles. Including with "Mustangs". And they killed everyone. It was after this that the Yak-3 received the unofficial title of the best WWII fighter. It was only later, when they began to rewrite history, began to argue that the "Mustangs" and "Spitfires" were cooler. Read what the same Gallay, who had a chance to test, including American cars, writes in his memoirs - you will learn a lot of useful things.


                  These are fairy tales for youngsters: the Mustang would simply never end up in a dueling position with Yak. The Mustang in real life was always higher than the Messers, and therefore had the initiative. And he would have been taller than Yak in the same way. That is, the Mustang would attack, and the Yak would sit like a chicken, dodging the attack, and nothing more. And what kind of pose this is - the Air Force pilots learned in abundance in 41 and 42, from the messengers. (Yes, and Pokryshkin from the 43rd used the same tactics, "height-speed-fire", as best he could)

                  Well, about the "best Yak": Yaks burned like matches, and did not hold the slightest beat. Percale with nicrolac on twigs - and a propeller in front - here is the Yak. Caught in the sight - and there is no Yak. "I flew and flew - bang-bang, and I'm already without an airplane"
                  While it was necessary to shoot at the same PV for a very long time in order to gut them --- it was very tenacious, you bastard.

                  War is not a duel where you have "equal chances".

                  Well, the origin of fairy tales about "how the Yaks blasted everyone" is known: Yakovlev's personal "memoirs", hence this fairy tale comes from
                  1. tomket
                    tomket 15 June 2016 17: 05
                    +6
                    Quote: AK64
                    These are fairy tales for minors: the Mustang simply would never have been in a duel position with Yak.

                    The Kozhedub story refutes your words.
                    Quote: AK64
                    That is, Mustang would attack, and Yak would sit like a chicken, maxim dodging the attack, and only

                    Again, the story of Kozhedub refutes your words.
                    Quote: AK64
                    Well, about the "best Yak": Yaks burned like matches, and did not hold the slightest beat.

                    Gasoline burns in the same way, both on the Yaks and on the "Mustangs".
                    Quote: AK64
                    While it was necessary to shoot at the same PV for a very long time in order to gut them --- it was very tenacious, you bastard.

                    Actually, it was no coincidence that guns were installed on our fighters. against shells that Yak, that FV, that "Mustang" a couple of hits and that's it.
                    1. AK64
                      AK64 15 June 2016 19: 02
                      -1
                      The Kozhedub story refutes your words.

                      Ahhhhhhhh ...
                      Even too lazy to answer ...

                      Of course I could say that "well, the same is Kozhedub!"
                      It could have been easy. But I have a slightly different opinion. That is, I'm going to say exactly this --- "well, this is Kozhedub!" - but with a different intonation.
                      Someone will understand, and someone will not.
                      Here you are - do not understand.

                      Gasoline burns in the same way, both on the Yaks and on the "Mustangs".

                      You do not understand what you are writing, and do not understand what you are opposing.
                      Firstly, tank protection is different. But this is not even about that: Yak is percale on steel bars. Percale impregnated with nitro enamel. It all burned out instantly.

                      And here comes PV and set fire to it.


                      Actually, it was no coincidence that guns were installed on our fighters. against shells that Yak, that FV, that "Mustang" a couple of hits and that's it.


                      Not true. And much is not true.
                      For example, the FV-20 tolerated 190mm hits quite freely, if not into "vital" ones. But the German 30mm (but there was already a hexogkn) in the wing of the bombers broke through the gate
                  2. Verdun
                    Verdun 15 June 2016 17: 32
                    +1
                    Quote: AK64
                    These are fairy tales for minors: the Mustang simply would never have been in a duel position with Yak.

                    Here, in an adjacent topic, an interview is being discussed between two French experts in urban fighting, who believe that the Germans fought incorrectly in Stalingrad. Do you happen to be with them from more than one company? laughing
                  3. DrVintorez
                    DrVintorez 15 June 2016 18: 14
                    +3
                    Quote: AK64
                    Well, about the "best Yak": Yaks burned like matches, and did not hold the slightest beat. Percale with nicrolac on twigs - and a propeller in front - here is the Yak. Caught in the sight - and there is no Yak.

                    tell us what is the difference for 12,7mm or 20mm and above between "percal" and luminous. yes, and do not forget to show the booking of the mustang, as well as remember the survivability of the liquid-cooled engines.
                    1. AK64
                      AK64 15 June 2016 19: 11
                      -4
                      Mustang Armor.

                      Action 20mm projectile on a dural design: a hole the size of a fist.
                      That's why the 20mm shell was recognized universally insufficiently effective, and gradually came to naught. Well, in a percale, the same shell will simply disrupt the entire skin, and that's all.

                      The Americans set 12.5mm to saturate the enemy fighter with a large number of high-energy striking elements in 1 second. (It turned out 70 in a sec.)
                      1. Operator
                        Operator 15 June 2016 20: 36
                        +4
                        The 20-mm shell of the ShVAK aircraft gun (as well as the shells of other aircraft guns) had an explosive explosive charge inside and a fuse to form a fragmentation field after penetrating duralumin / percale.

                        AK64, can I ask you not to touch the materiel in this thread?
                      2. kugelblitz
                        kugelblitz 15 June 2016 20: 52
                        +5
                        Just don’t tell him about the 37-mm projectile NS-37 Yak-9T, as well as about the 20 mm ShVAK + 2 U machine guns of 12,7 mm caliber. Yak-3 lol
                        By the way, the VK-105PF2 Yak-3 motor weighed only .... 570 kg, against 920 kg of Daimler-Benz 603! wassat

                        Take-off weight is just over 2,5 tons !!! Incredibly light and maneuverable aircraft !!!
                    2. The comment was deleted.
                  4. rubin6286
                    rubin6286 15 June 2016 20: 08
                    +4
                    It is a generally accepted fact that up to an altitude of 5 meters, the Yak-3 aircraft surpasses all other fighters in the world in climb rate and maximum speed in vertical combat. In battle on the horizontal, the Yak-3 pilot comes "in the tail" already on the second bend.
                  5. Verdun
                    Verdun 15 June 2016 22: 47
                    +3
                    Quote: AK64
                    Well, the origin of fairy tales about "how the Yaks blasted everyone" is known: Yakovlev's personal "memoirs", hence this fairy tale comes from

                    Yakovlev’s memoirs are a separate topic. A good constructor, but not a very good person. However, I did not read about Yak-3 from Yakovlev, but from Pierre Puyad, and I read in the original. I do not think that the brigadier general of aviation was a soul-catcher.
            3. The comment was deleted.
            4. Mikhail Matyugin
              Mikhail Matyugin 17 June 2016 10: 06
              0
              Quote: Kenneth
              They would leave the theme of the Messerschmitts as highly maneuverable low-altitude aircraft, and heavy and armored foks, reserved for battle with bombers, would be equipped with high-altitude engines, highlighting, of course, the assault line.

              They had a line of stormtroopers - Junkers 87 and Henschel 123 and 129.

              Well, the high-altitude motor did not work out well - but instead, they compensated for the transition to jet aircraft.
          2. AK64
            AK64 15 June 2016 15: 26
            -2
            Do not forget that during the war the Germans had to create airplanes for two types of air wars, which went on as if at different levels. On the one hand, they had to confront the aviation of the USSR with its attack aircraft and dive bombers at altitudes up to 5000 meters. On the other, to intercept strategic allied bombers at high altitudes. Figuratively speaking, we needed machines capable of fighting both the Lavochkin and Thunderbolts. Solving these problems, German engineers showed themselves brilliantly. However, the concept of a universal fighter was doomed to failure precisely because of its versatility. The creations of the German aviation industry only came close in characteristics to the enemy’s machines in certain situations, but could not surpass them.


            This is necessary, in one paragraph of 8 legends!
            1. Mikhail Matyugin
              Mikhail Matyugin 25 June 2016 12: 27
              0
              Quote: AK64
              Figuratively speaking, we needed machines capable of fighting both the Lavochkin and Thunderbolts.

              This is exactly what the Fw-190 has become - a super-universal! This is the kind of plane that both Western "strategists" could shoot down well at heights, and smashed the formations of our attack aircraft! A truly versatile aircraft! And the Ta-152 is just its high-altitude modification, in fact, I would call it "the German analogue of the Mustang" or something.
          3. rubin6286
            rubin6286 15 June 2016 19: 39
            0
            You need to read more literature on aviation topics. The versatility of the aircraft lies in the possibility of its use for solving various tasks - attacking land and sea targets, towing gliders. landing of troops, etc. etc. A fighter is needed to "destroy" any air targets. in this respect, the German fighter planes of the past war were quite consistent with their purpose. Did they surpass similar machines of other states in performance characteristics? The situation developed in different ways. but they strove for this.
            1. Verdun
              Verdun 15 June 2016 22: 01
              +1
              Quote: rubin6286
              You need to read more literature on aviation topics. The versatility of the aircraft lies in the possibility of its use for solving various problems

              Air combat at low and medium altitudes and interception of targets at high altitudes are two tasks that place demands on a fighter, which are almost impossible to combine in one machine. That is why "Thunderbolts" or MiG-3s never shone in combat at low altitudes, and the Yaks and Messerschmidts of the most common versions experienced difficulties in intercepting bombers at high altitudes.
        2. AK64
          AK64 15 June 2016 15: 25
          -2
          I generally find most German planes of the war times disgustingly ugly, starting with the Yu-87 and ending with Schwalba. The only bright spot was the Bf-110 until they began to hang it with antennas.

          I did not understand what is bad in Me.262, and what is good in 110?
        3. rubin6286
          rubin6286 15 June 2016 19: 31
          +2
          I remind you that there are no ugly aircraft. Designs are rational and irrational. Rationalism is based on the ability to create an aircraft that satisfies all the requirements, sometimes even contradictory ones.
    4. Mikhail Matyugin
      Mikhail Matyugin 15 June 2016 13: 08
      +2
      Quote: Kenneth
      What an ugly plane.

      And what is his ugliness? The car was quite at the level of the best samples. Although the Luftwaffe pilots believed that the Fw-190 D modifications are still better and more reliable (the collapse of production may have affected).
      1. Kenneth
        Kenneth 15 June 2016 14: 53
        -1
        Damn, he looks like a freak. Cigarette butt with wings. Compare with yaks, benches, sleeps, mustangs, even with a corsair.
    5. AK64
      AK64 15 June 2016 15: 01
      0
      Hehe.
      And what about this?
  3. qwert
    qwert 15 June 2016 07: 34
    +3
    What struck me most was how far the Germans did not believe in the collapse of their Reich. The eastern front is bursting at the seams, the Allies tear down German cities in ruins. In the yard 1945 year. And they are making plans for the fall, as the new production is launched. What is it? Belief in a miracle? Hope for the prodigy? Blindness? Goebels zombies? Or simply, did what the Führer expected from them (perfectly understanding everything, but not running into trouble) and prepared to sell more expensive to the Americans?

    In the last photo, apparently, the plane was moored so that it would not be turned over by its gusts of wind. His wingspan is unusually large.
    And about the ugliness. Well, not handsome. But the characteristics are good. However, Me-109, also a freak against the background of peers. hi I don’t know what the German designers have to say.
    1. BMP-2
      BMP-2 15 June 2016 13: 32
      +1
      Well, a freak is not a freak - as they say, it tastes and color. laughing But the fact that the 1945th year the history of Ta-152 does not end - it is unique. After the war, these aircraft were in service with the Soviet Army as high-altitude interceptors. And, if memory serves, only after the start of the MiG Era were removed from combat duty.
  4. V.ic
    V.ic 15 June 2016 07: 35
    +14
    Well, finally, otherwise I read yesterday that the Germans are all stupid, the P-47 and P-51 are the best "candy" - I'm talking about the article "How the US Air Force defeated the Luftwaffe" by a certain Oleg Kaptsov.
    1. tomket
      tomket 15 June 2016 08: 07
      +12
      Quote: V.ic
      a certain Oleg Kaptsov.

      Yes you!!! Oleg Kaptsov is a famous and noble figure on the VO! He has American battleships plowing the air, and American planes regularly fly to the moon, defending democracy in the galaxy. In other words, he is still a dreamer.
      1. Taoist
        Taoist 15 June 2016 17: 10
        +2
        Only materiel does not like to teach ... But in vain. "There are many friends of Horatio such that our sages never dreamed of ..." (c)
        "Technician" writes not so beautifully, but in my opinion it is much more interesting and informative ...
    2. Uncle Murzik
      Uncle Murzik 15 June 2016 08: 12
      +4
      Koptsov’s article, usual liberal propaganda about how Americans defeat everything and everyone! only in North Korea did our aces in 1950 defeat the vaunted American aces on the head!
      1. DimanC
        DimanC 15 June 2016 11: 01
        +4
        ALL! Soon wait for the corresponding "reply" from Oleg :-)
    3. AK64
      AK64 15 June 2016 15: 36
      -5
      Well, finally, otherwise I read yesterday that the Germans are all stupid, the R-47 and R-51 are the best "candy"


      And what is wrong? It is true - it is. Mustang is a miracle what is it. They still look (though post-war dressing is already) as quite modern and handsome.

      Mustan is really great samol
      1. tomket
        tomket 15 June 2016 16: 22
        +5
        Quote: AK64
        And what is wrong? It is true - it is. Mustang is a miracle what is it. They still look (though post-war dressing is already) as quite modern and handsome.

        Mustan is really great samol

        When the Yak-9 was made all-metal and one such captured in Korea was flown to the United States, no special differences from the Mustang were found. So it was written in the report, in general, comparable to the "Mustang". So I don’t see what your delight is. Yak 9 replica just now looks great, as you say, as modern.
        1. AK64
          AK64 15 June 2016 16: 54
          -4
          When the Yak-9 was made all-metal and one such captured in Korea was flown to the United States, no special differences from the Mustang were found. So it was written in the report, in general, comparable to the "Mustang". So I don’t see what your delight is. Yak 9 replica just now looks great, as you say, as modern.


          Uh-huh: "when they finally sewed my grandmother .... outwardly, she completely ceased to differ from grandfather."

          And do not tell me, how many altitudes did your "duralumin grandmother" have? What was the range of this "duralumin miracle"? How many minutes did his flame motor run? How many kilograms did he carry on himself?

          So: Mustangs sharpened under the distant escort of high-altitude bombers. Yak on those 1300 m on which Mustang worked at least could crawl?
          1. tomket
            tomket 15 June 2016 17: 11
            +4
            Quote: AK64
            And do not tell me, how many altitudes did your "duralumin grandmother" have?

            In Korea, the B-29 was enough to intercept.
            Quote: AK64
            Uh-huh: "when they finally sewed my grandmother .... outwardly, she completely ceased to differ from grandfather."

            I would love to see what the Americans began to build their "Mustangs" from, if they had Guderian's divisions stomping around near Washington.
            Quote: AK64
            So: Mustangs sharpened under the distant escort of high-altitude bombers.

            And Yaks were sharpened for racing around stormtroopers. What did you want to say that? What is more important, escorting "fortresses" or stormtroopers? unambiguously attack aircraft, because they were engaged in the destruction of enemy tanks, and not terrorizing the population.
            Quote: AK64
            How on those 1300 m on which Mustang worked at least could crawl?

            And what is the problem to climb to 1300?)))))))
            1. AK64
              AK64 15 June 2016 17: 26
              -3
              I will not comment, due to obvious absurdity

              In Korea, the B-29 was enough to intercept.


              I would love to see what the Americans began to build their "Mustangs" from, if they had Guderian's divisions stomping around near Washington.


              And Yaks were sharpened for racing around stormtroopers. What did you want to say that? What is more important, escorting "fortresses" or stormtroopers? unambiguously attack aircraft, because they were engaged in the destruction of enemy tanks, and not terrorizing the population.


              And what is the problem to climb to 1300?)))))))
              1. Maegrom
                Maegrom 15 June 2016 18: 16
                +1
                About 1300 m - this is your quote - carefully watch the posts before publication. It is clear that this is nonsense, but a reason to catch on.
              2. tomket
                tomket 15 June 2016 18: 31
                +2
                Quote: AK64
                I will not comment, due to obvious absurdity

                You bring episodes of the interception of B-29 Yakom in Korea?
            2. AK64
              AK64 15 June 2016 17: 26
              +1
              I will not comment, due to obvious absurdity

              In Korea, the B-29 was enough to intercept.


              I would love to see what the Americans began to build their "Mustangs" from, if they had Guderian's divisions stomping around near Washington.


              And Yaks were sharpened for racing around stormtroopers. What did you want to say that? What is more important, escorting "fortresses" or stormtroopers? unambiguously attack aircraft, because they were engaged in the destruction of enemy tanks, and not terrorizing the population.


              And what is the problem to climb to 1300?)))))))
              1. DrVintorez
                DrVintorez 15 June 2016 18: 20
                +1
                pralno, because as soon as they give you a refutation, you merge, like Kaptsov. By the way, aren't you just another Kaptsov cartoon?
            3. Mikhail Matyugin
              Mikhail Matyugin 16 June 2016 21: 14
              0
              Quote: tomket
              In Korea, the B-29 was enough to intercept.

              You want to say Mig-15 was enough. Yak-9 worked as low-altitude and even as attack aircraft.

              Quote: tomket
              I would love to see what the Americans began to build their "Mustangs" from, if they had Guderian's divisions stomping around near Washington.
              From the same duralumin. You will not believe it, but even the USSR had enough supplies of materials, a production culture was not enough.

              Quote: tomket
              And the Yaks were sharpened for racing around stormtroopers. What did you want to say that? What is more important, escorting "fortresses" or stormtroopers? definitely attack aircraft, because they were engaged in the destruction of enemy tanks,
              Strange, but the Germans clearly did not think so. The fact is that strategic bombers are not engaged in the destruction of tanks, but the factories themselves, these tanks producing, and these tanks generally do not get to the front. And therefore, it was precisely for the Luftwaffe (not for the Wehrmacht, including the Panzerwaffe or Heer as a whole) that German air defense and air war over Europe took precedence, and the Eastern Front was supplied on a residual basis. Actually, the Allies greatly helped us.
        2. The comment was deleted.
      2. DrVintorez
        DrVintorez 15 June 2016 18: 18
        +1
        Ah voooot how military equipment is estimated ... Germans are stupid, this is a priori. beautiful means great. Well then, no questions. to you in a sect to Kaptsov, he will be fanatic for his armor, you for his beauty, and you for a couple - for ANYTHINGYoung Americans.
  5. avg-mgn
    avg-mgn 15 June 2016 08: 03
    +2
    An interesting page of history. Thanks for the material and Aleksanr72 for the comment.
  6. parusnik
    parusnik 15 June 2016 08: 06
    +2
    Not handsome, but LTX is impressive ... Thanks ...
    1. tomket
      tomket 15 June 2016 08: 51
      +11
      Quote: parusnik
      Not handsome, but LTX is impressive ... Thanks ...

      The taste and color, in my opinion, looks much more harmonious than the "Thunderbolt" or deck "Hellkets". In general, in terms of beauty and harmony, for me the Yak-9u is the standard. The Spitfire isn't bad either, but it has too much wing area.
  7. minirulet
    minirulet 15 June 2016 10: 58
    +2
    As for me, it’s such a very beautiful plane. In its own way, of course, like a high-altitude fighter. It was just too late he was lifted into the air. If only half a year or a year, both the TA-152 and ME-262 would be brought to mind and it would not be easy for the allies. However, the Luftwaffe was completely defeated by 1945. The allies dominated the sky. And thank God the Germans did not have time to create a nuclear bomb.
    1. Kenneth
      Kenneth 15 June 2016 13: 24
      +3
      I read that only 5% of allied pilots in general at least once saw German planes in the sky. If something happened that you dreamed about, you might see 10%, but as a result, nothing would have changed. Germany lost the resource war in 43 and no technology would have saved it.
      1. Mikhail Matyugin
        Mikhail Matyugin 15 June 2016 14: 05
        -1
        Quote: Kenneth
        . Germany lost the resource war back in 43 and no technology would have saved it.

        The problem is that in the initial stages of the war Germany just won (in the air) thanks to the success of technology. And if it were not for squandering resources and the inability to mobilize industry properly for a total war - the outcome of the Second World War could be unpredictable.
        1. Kenneth
          Kenneth 15 June 2016 14: 24
          -2
          The end became quite predictable when the Germans merged the battle for the Atlantic and the allies adjusted the supply of the main hammer of the coalition of the USSR. that is, bottomless American resources, together with the mobilized industry of the coalition countries, routinely crushed the Germans. They have no chances. They missed their chance to win without knocking the USSR out of the war and losing in Africa in 1941 - 1942. And the chance to draw in a draw in 43, as I wrote above.
        2. AK64
          AK64 15 June 2016 15: 44
          +1
          The problem is that in the initial stages of the war Germany just won (in the air) thanks to the success of technology. And if it were not for squandering resources and the inability to mobilize industry properly for a total war - the outcome of the Second World War could be unpredictable.


          Could not: even in terms of resources, even in industrial capabilities, even Britain had covered Germany like a sheep. Therefore, the Germans made a bet on blitzkrieg, because they realized that in a protracted war they would inevitably lose (tried).
          Well, since the blitzkrieg, then the planning is appropriate.

          In general, the second time they skillfully forced to fight.
      2. AK64
        AK64 15 June 2016 15: 39
        +1
        Germany lost the resource war in 43 and no technology would have saved it.


        In the 40th. In the 40th, she lost the war of resources. Hence convulsions like an attack on the USSR
  8. Operator
    Operator 15 June 2016 11: 43
    +5
    The aircraft flight characteristics table deliberately (?) Shows an older modification of the "Mustang" - for comparison with the small-scale Ta-152 of the January 1945 sample, it was necessary to use the P-51N, produced since February 1945 in the amount of 555 units and equipped with a V-1650 engine. 9 with a water-alcohol injection system providing 2200 hp (similar to Jumo-213 and DB-603 engines).

    With this engine "Mustang" (empty weight 3466 kg) unambiguously tore apart the most unsuccessful product of Kurt Tank Ta-152 (empty weight 3850 kg) - a hybrid of Focke-Wolf and a liquid-cooled motor.

    But the funny thing is that these peaks of creativity of American and German designers with sophisticated liquid-cooled engines and all-metal gliders in the 1945 year were poured over a full La-7 linen equipped with an ASh-82FN air vent without a supercharger and an injection of a water-alcohol mixture.

    In general, it’s a big mystery how it was possible to design curved fighters with liquid-cooled engines so that they fly at the speed of a fighter with an air-cooled engine.

    An additional shame of Western designers in comparison with Semyon Lavochkin is that after the La-1946 switched to an all-metal glider in the 7 year, the range of its modification La-9 (with increased fuel tanks) increased to the level of the notorious Ta-152 and Р-51 (without hanging tanks).

    This is me to the fact that it is necessary to correctly compare the performance characteristics of aircraft, do not drool over western wunderwafes and do not forget to emphasize the achievements of the domestic engineering school.
    1. Kenneth
      Kenneth 15 June 2016 13: 03
      -3
      Especially bribed in the shops so this is an additional function of the Finnish sauna right in flight. And so - I completely agree. Only you forgot to mention that all these evil perverts were put by the Americans and Germans to fight around the Allied bombers. The height of use of our aircraft was determined by the need to cover the Il mowers, which flew just above the roofs. And therefore, opponents of older versions of the gustavs fought with them.
      1. Operator
        Operator 15 June 2016 16: 18
        +3
        The height of the combat use of IL-2 did not determine the height of the combat use of La-7, but quite the opposite - Messerschmidtov and Fokker.

        And the La-7s built their "whatnot" up to 6000 meters (the limit of flight without an oxygen mask) and beat enemy fighters on their own terms.

        By the way, Kozhedub flunked a couple of his Mustangs not on 12000 meters either.
      2. AK64
        AK64 15 June 2016 16: 23
        +1
        Range and payload still need to be mentioned.

        Mustang P-51 D
        Empty weight: 3,465 kg
        Loaded weight: 4,175 kg
        Max takeoff weight: 5,490 kg
        Total dragged up to 2 tons (!!!), with a dead weight of 3.5 tons
        Range: 2,755 km with external tanks
        Service ceiling: 12,800 m
        Rate of climb: (16.3 m / s)

        La-7
        Weight, kg
        empty xnumx
        take-off 3265
        (That is, he didn’t take tons!)
        Range: 665 km (1944 model)
        Service ceiling: 10,450 m
        Rate of climb: 15.72 m / s
        1. DrVintorez
          DrVintorez 15 June 2016 18: 22
          +1
          2 tons of what drags an escort fighter?
          1. tomket
            tomket 15 June 2016 18: 39
            +1
            Quote: DrVintorez
            2 tons of what drags an escort fighter?

            Angians, for example, carried barrels of wine under the wing when relocating. What a Mustang should carry while escorting "fortresses", except for a couple of PTBs, nothing comes to mind. For carrying bombs, it seems, there were attack aircraft and bombers. I can't imagine the Mustang's 2-ton combat load.
            1. DrVintorez
              DrVintorez 15 June 2016 18: 54
              +2
              Cans Budvayzer in PTB. So there were cluster bombs :-)
          2. AK64
            AK64 15 June 2016 19: 20
            +1
            2 tons of what drags an escort fighter?


            Y-yes ...

            The first is versatility. (FV-190 azhnik torpedoes could lift. The truth is already beyond: only individual pilots and from long concrete blocks)
            Secondly: you apparently think that fuel mustangs were refueling somewhere at German gas stations: well, there they fly up, refuel, they buy coffee at the same time. So?

            This indicator very accurately characterizes the QUALITY of the aircraft: what was then, what is modern. (Of course you need to compare the comparable, not the bomber with the fighter)
            1. DrVintorez
              DrVintorez 16 June 2016 04: 17
              0
              What does quality have to do with it? The task of the escort-escort. He was designed for this purpose. the same la7 does not have the task of escorting long-range bombers. So you can agree to the point that the Mustang is a bucket compared to ep2.
          3. The comment was deleted.
        2. Operator
          Operator 16 June 2016 01: 54
          +1
          The concept of payload includes everything that exceeds the normal take-off weight (loaded weight) of an aircraft with completely filled internal fuel tanks, ammunition for shells and cartridges, a pilot on board, oil and a water-alcohol mixture for the engine.

          The P-51D's payload was 1315 kg, or 31 percent of its normal take-off weight. In the version of the escort fighter "Mustang" carried outboard fuel tanks by this value.

          The payload of the La-7 in the version of the front-line fighter was 200 kg of bombs or 6 percent of the normal take-off weight. This was caused by the use of wooden parts in the design of the airframe (with the exception of wing spars).

          In the 1946 year, after switching to an all-metal glider, the empty weight of the La-9 modification (48 product or all-metal La-7) decreased to 2600 kg, normal take-off weight increased to 3700 kg, and payload increased to 750 kg or 20 percent.

          La-9 was armed with four 23-mm cannons with 300 shells and had a complete set of avionics as a part of a radio transmitter, radio half-moon, horizon, remote compass and mid-range transponder 3. The aircraft was equipped with a collimator sight, a photo machine gun and an oxygen device with an 4-liter cylinder.

          The cruising range of La-9 at 380 km / h was 1700 km, climb rate 24 m / s, practical ceiling 11000, which is 1000 meters more than that of the B-29 bomber.
  9. Mikhail Matyugin
    Mikhail Matyugin 15 June 2016 13: 06
    +3
    Quote: Operator
    For comparison with the small-series Ta-152 of the sample of January 1945 of the year, it was necessary to use P-51Н, produced since February 1945 of the year in the amount of 555 units and

    Let me ask a question - and many of these modifications were put in the troops? especially in Europe? moreover taking into account logistics? (and the Germans already have factories right next to the fronts)

    Quote: Operator
    But the funny thing is that these peaks of creativity of American and German designers with sophisticated liquid-cooled engines and all-metal gliders in the 1945 year were poured over a full La-7 linen equipped with an ASh-82FN air vent without a supercharger and an injection of a water-alcohol mixture.
    Please clarify, do you have specific examples of "plum"?

    Quote: Operator
    An additional shame of Western designers in comparison with Semyon Lavochkin is that after the La-1946 switched to an all-metal glider in the 7 year, the range of its modification La-9 (with increased fuel tanks) increased to the level of the notorious Ta-152 and Р-51 (without hanging tanks).

    Just to remind you, the Germans were planning to enter the era of brand new turbojet aircraft. And you push forward with a great achievement that the industry of the USSR finally switched to all-metal gliders, getting rid of the canvas?!?
    1. Kenneth
      Kenneth 15 June 2016 13: 17
      +4
      But for every fashionable Hans on an all-aluminum prodigy with an injection in the ass, there were ten of our half-wooden, but quite formidable fighter. And Hans, instead of bothering Ilam to mix other Hans with the ground, only embarrassedly waved his wings and wound.
    2. Uncle Murzik
      Uncle Murzik 15 June 2016 13: 23
      0
      our designers and pilots proved in North Korea in 1950 that they successfully switched to turbojet engines!
      1. rubin6286
        rubin6286 15 June 2016 20: 13
        0
        And here North Korea. Why carry everything in a row.
        1. Uncle Murzik
          Uncle Murzik 15 June 2016 22: 00
          0
          read the comment above matyugina!
    3. Operator
      Operator 15 June 2016 16: 32
      +2
      Logistics is simple - loading onto a ship and after a week an airplane in Europe.

      Does Kozhedub's dry score on La 7 against two P-51 not tell you anything?

      And here are the Germans' plans for the turbojet engine - that, based on the plans, the Germans waved their hands at Kurt Tank, like don’t get in the way? We compare specific 1945 piston aircraft of the year, including German ones.

      And why be ironic about the resource capabilities of the USSR industry in wartime, if aircraft designs as such are compared. Or do you think that in the 1946 year, Soviet designers, technologists and production workers sharply realized that an all-metal aircraft is good?
  10. Mikhail Matyugin
    Mikhail Matyugin 15 June 2016 14: 03
    -1
    Quote: Uncle Murzik
    Our designers and pilots have proven in North Korea
    Our designers and pilots for that period proved only that they do not know how to work efficiently enough. But Soviet intelligence and foreign trade workers proved that they know how to work. Learn the story of the creation of Mig-15.
    1. Uncle Murzik
      Uncle Murzik 15 June 2016 14: 29
      +4
      On this day, almost all our best aces of this war won aerial victories: the commander of the 196th IAP, Lieutenant Colonel Yevgeny Pepelyaev, guard captains Sergei Kramarenko, Serafim Subbotin and Grigory Ges, Art. Lieutenants Boris Abakumov and others. 13 "flying fortresses" and 6 enemy fighters shot down our valiant pilots in that battle. In the battle, 3 Soviet fighters were damaged, but all of them were able to land safely at their airfields. The defeat of the American air force was appalling; public opinion in the United States was shocked by such an "unsportsmanlike score" ... in your opinion, this does not prove the effectiveness of our pilots? so you probably don’t know our history! Can you link to the creation of the MiG-15?
      1. Maegrom
        Maegrom 15 June 2016 18: 00
        0
        Only then was the Fighter Division in Korea replaced by the Air Defense Division and the resulting aircraft losses were leveled by the end of the war.
        1. Uncle Murzik
          Uncle Murzik 15 June 2016 19: 26
          0
          In a review of the combat activities of the MiG-15 crews during the war years, the commander of the 64th corps, S. V. Slyusarev, informed the Air Force headquarters that the most difficult but effective combat operations of the corps date back to 1950–1951, when it was shot down in air battles 564 enemy aircraft. Own losses amounted to: pilots - 34, aircraft - 71. The total loss ratio is 7,9: 1 in favor of the 64th corps. In 1952, the effectiveness of the corps decreased. 394 enemy planes were shot down. Own losses - 51 pilots and 172 aircraft. The overall ratio of downed planes is 2,2: 1. For 7 months of 1953, 139 American aircraft were destroyed in air battles, and the losses amounted to: 25 pilots killed and 76 MIG-15bis fighters, which amounted to 1,9: 1 in favor of the 64th corps [41].
          1. Maegrom
            Maegrom 15 June 2016 23: 24
            0
            http://forum.ixbt.com/topic.cgi?id=34:1549 К примеру, обсуждение
            http://topwar.ru/33042-krasnye-komandiry-na-allee-migov.html выдержки Крамаренко, на которого ориентировался в числе прочего.
            Unable to find large material with comparative proprietary data (not applications) now, unfortunately.
            It is absurd to compare applications for victories and losses of your own payroll.
    2. Uncle Murzik
      Uncle Murzik 15 June 2016 19: 25
      +1
      When reviewing the combat activities of the MiG-15 crews during the war years, the commander of the 64th corps, S. V. Slyusarev, informed the headquarters of the Air Force that the most difficult but effective combat operations of the corps date back to 1950-1951, when it was shot down in air battles 564 enemy aircraft. Own losses amounted to: pilots - 34, aircraft - 71. The total loss ratio is 7,9: 1 in favor of the 64th corps. In 1952, the effectiveness of the corps decreased. 394 enemy planes were shot down. Own losses - 51 pilots and 172 aircraft. The overall ratio of downed planes is 2,2: 1. For 7 months of 1953, 139 American aircraft were destroyed in air battles, and the losses amounted to: 25 pilots killed and 76 MIG-15bis fighters, which amounted to 1,9: 1 in favor of the 64th corps [41]. lodges do not decorate a man
  11. andrewkor
    andrewkor 15 June 2016 14: 07
    +2
    And I have a book: "Focke-Wulf FW-190" there is about all 190s, 152s, so nothing new. As for personal preferences, my ideal since childhood is Yak-3!
  12. Pitot
    Pitot 15 June 2016 15: 30
    +1
    A kind of airplane. What and how not to say it, but the Germans knew how to make airplanes - the device was decent in terms of characteristics. This is from my point of view, since I am not special. But I try to keep an open mind.
  13. tomket
    tomket 15 June 2016 16: 27
    +5
    By the way, a photo of Lavochkin with a flashlight with improved visibility, in metal, and a laminar wing profile. Apparently, it is not inferior to the Americans in aesthetics.
    1. AK64
      AK64 15 June 2016 17: 01
      +1
      By the way, a photo of Lavochkin with a flashlight with improved visibility, in metal, and a laminar wing profile. Apparently, it is not inferior to the Americans in aesthetics.

      Yep ..

      Only here in the picture --- this is La-9. Which is out of date BEFORE he entered the series (in the 47th).
      1. tomket
        tomket 15 June 2016 18: 27
        +4
        Quote: AK64
        Only here in the picture --- this is La-9. Which is out of date BEFORE it entered the series (in 47).

        And why is it outdated, I would like to know? Until the mid-50s, both Lavochkin and Mustangs with Corsairs were in service. No, I don't argue that the MiG-15 is better, but piston planes flew until the mid-50s. And they managed to fight in Korea.
        1. AK64
          AK64 15 June 2016 19: 25
          +2
          And why is it outdated, I would like to know? Until the mid-50s, both Lavochkin and Mustangs with Corsairs were in service. No, I don't argue that the MiG-15 is better, but piston planes flew until the mid-50s. And they managed to fight in Korea.

          No need to lie. Do not lie.

          Mustangs in Korea WERE NOT already exterminated --- they were used as a fighter-bomber, that is, in fact, an attack aircraft. And they flew low, not at their height.
          They tried to use La-9 as a NIGHT fighter (because it could not be DAY, and it was not suitable for a fighter-bomber).
          La-9 didn’t show any particular success in Korea. In general, no one was shown.

          Corsairs - they have a deck niche. It is banal that there was NOTHING to replace the Corsair at that time, there was no carrier-based jet aircraft. That is, the Corsair is "in the absence of a stamp"
      2. DrVintorez
        DrVintorez 15 June 2016 18: 27
        +1
        Quote: AK64
        Only here on the picture is La-9

        stars are not amerovskie, do not like it, right?
        what did the amers in the far east have in the 47th year? probably shootingar? Well, how's the characteristics? is there an order of magnitude difference? and for the USSR la-9 was quite good: the production was completed, the pilots were trained, we were covering our territory, again the possibility of mass production.
    2. AK64
      AK64 15 June 2016 17: 01
      +1
      By the way, a photo of Lavochkin with a flashlight with improved visibility, in metal, and a laminar wing profile. Apparently, it is not inferior to the Americans in aesthetics.

      Yep ..

      Only here in the picture --- this is La-9. Which is out of date BEFORE he entered the series (in the 47th).
    3. Razvedka_Boem
      Razvedka_Boem 15 June 2016 17: 35
      +2
      Looks great!
  14. rubin6286
    rubin6286 15 June 2016 18: 47
    0
    In 1944, the merits of aircraft designer Kurt Tank were finally recognized by the Reich leadership and now he had the right to create machines with his own Ta brand. Of the many projects that were in varying degrees of development, there was a high-altitude fighter-interceptor and reconnaissance Ta-152.
    This aircraft is described in sufficient detail in popular literature and information about it can be successfully found on the Internet. In this sense, the article does not carry new information. In it, as in some other articles of the author, there is no independent analysis of the material used and conclusions from its contents, which always create a discussion field for the authors of subsequent comments.
    The Ta-152 is interesting primarily because it was based on another basic model - the FV-190D, which is in production and although the alterations were minimal, it was already a new machine.
    The increased mass of the aircraft led to an increase in effort on the controls. According to the Soviet pilots who experienced the Ta-152 in the post-war period, the impression was that you were operating an IL-2 or IL-10. Unlike the Me-262, it was not possible to use hydraulic boosters in the control system and had to confine ourselves to hydraulics in the chassis cleaning system. The placement of tanks in the center section and the increase in wing span led to an increase in flight range, but at the same time reduced the survivability of the aircraft. The aircraft was released in several versions in a small amount and did not have a significant impact on the course of the air war. Perhaps the war lasted a little longer, the situation could be different, but a number of issues related to engine reliability, weapon efficiency and so on. at that level of technological development, specialists in these industries have not yet been resolved.
    1. qwert
      qwert 16 June 2016 07: 40
      +1
      Quote: rubin6286
      there is no independent analysis of the material used and conclusions from its content, which always create a discussion field for the authors of subsequent comments.

      You are probably a teacher. I remember how a literature teacher asked us to express our own opinion in writings and write more about the connection of times and relate the topic to the realities of today. Well, I recommend you read Oleg Kaptsov. There, almost all independent analysis and their own opinions. And a lot of reasons for the discussion field. I have nothing against such articles. However, about military equipment, and it is technical articles that I personally like to read without any analysis by the author. I draw conclusions myself based on the information. Therefore, let me fundamentally disagree with you. VO needs different articles. IMHO And first of all, by the fact that READERS ARE ALSO DIFFERENT. To each his own author. To whom is a technician engineer, to whom Oleg Kaptsov, to whom Berg, and to whom and Polina. For me personally, it’s interesting to read them all. Precisely because they are different and they have different styles and themes. I am not a fan of one-man theater and the standardization of creativity. hi
    2. Warrior2015
      Warrior2015 16 June 2016 11: 20
      +1
      Quote: rubin6286
      According to the Soviet pilots who experienced Ta-152 in the post-war period, the impression was that you were operating an IL-2 or an IL-10.

      That is why apparently the Germans themselves did not really like them either.
  15. Technical engineer
    15 June 2016 19: 43
    +5
    Quote: rubin6286
    This plane is described in some detail in popular literature and information about it can be successfully found on the Internet.

    Like Feb-189, and Yu-188 and almost 95% of other aircraft. Yes, these are, for example, non-ingolin torpedoes, for which information on the Internet is zilch, in contrast to the article on HE. However, I think that about Ta-152, about Ju-188, about La-7, and about P-38, there should be articles on the BO. This site is visited not only by aviation experts who have full shelves of monographs at home, but also by people for whom the airplanes, although interesting, are not the main hobby and hobby, and most importantly, those guys who may have articles on military education that might cause interest in aviation, which later goes into something more. Perhaps for someone this article does not carry anything new. Who is arguing? I myself have both a profile education and a hobby since childhood, and there has been work on a profile, and there is nowhere to put literature. But believe me, such a minority. Most, nevertheless, find something new. And by the way, I always strive for this. Article rating confirms this. Yes, and according to my statistics, positive reviews of the articles, thank God, are far more than those who are dissatisfied. For that many thanks to everyone who leaves them. True, they are very important for authors. I rarely enter into controversy and debate, rarely noted in the comments, but I always read the reviews.
    1. kugelblitz
      kugelblitz 15 June 2016 19: 53
      +1
      Could you write an article about the wonderful Hispano-Suiza 12Y motor and its descendants? It was used on different types of aircraft, from fighters to flying boats and passenger, and even set records on it. It will tear the cuckoo to many, no worse than the Merlin and 28 cylinder airborne Vaspov. wassat
  16. iouris
    iouris 15 June 2016 22: 12
    0
    To the author: correct the error
    Escort fighter, escort fighter - (German) Begleitjäger
  17. northern
    northern 15 June 2016 23: 12
    0
    Quote: Todessichel
    And M82 was made based on Wright Whitney

    what is it all about?
    wright cyclone know pratt whitney know too. wright whitney don't know.
    OlegT in a branch, not otherwise.
  18. Two handed
    Two handed 16 June 2016 04: 55
    +4
    What kind of stubborn writes comments about the Yak-3? Where did he smoke that he didn’t have bulletproof glass and armored back? Why did he decide that the Mustang will do it as a partridge? Mustang having a lower maximum speed at altitudes of up to 5000 m, lower climb rate, lower thrust-to-weight ratio, having much worse maneuverability both horizontally and vertically? At heights of up to 5 km. the yak has overwhelming superiority, and they are not intended to fly higher. Marcel Albert recognized the superiority of Yak-3 over the Spitfire and Mustang supermarines, and in general, Western authors are very good about Yak. Recently I read one American cheers-patriotic article about the late modification of the corsair, they say he exceeded the Mustang, Thunderbolt and all German fighters, and from the allied it could only resist Yak-3))
    1. Warrior2015
      Warrior2015 16 June 2016 11: 10
      +1
      Quote: Zweihander
      Where did he smoke that he didn’t have bulletproof glass and armored back? Why did he decide that the Mustang will do it as a partridge?

      As they say, put me in the Yak-3 (new, with a good engine) and let the 8 (two links) Mustangs be against me - I can easily do them (even - and maybe better without a partner). I’m not saying that I’ll kill you (there’s not enough biocomplex), but I pinch it strongly. If there will be 12 and more, it will be very difficult, but they will interfere with each other even more. laughing

      But the War in Korea is a completely different matter, this is a different era.
    2. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 16 June 2016 11: 37
      0
      because he is ... american laughing
    3. The comment was deleted.
  19. qwert
    qwert 16 June 2016 07: 53
    0
    Quote: AK64
    the poll is ridiculous: both Wright-Cyclone and Hispan were purchased back in 30's. And squeezed the last drops from these long-dead cows until the 47-48 year.
    While the same Wright Cyclone has already become the Wright R-3350 Duplex-Cyclone, with its 3000 mares. Or for example the Pratt & Whitney R-2800 Double Wasp with its 2500 mares.

    Have you thought about the weight and dimensions of these engines? Well, if you approach strategically. We have created ASH-82, one of the advantages of which was a small midsection. This was one of the requirements. Designed primarily for fighters and to replace the M-88, with the modernization / modification of production vehicles. Now imagine the 1942 / 43 year. KB works in part. Some are at the front, some are in production, some are in design teams, also at the front. Conditions are not the best either. Evacuation, new premises, sometimes poorly burned, etc. Where to throw strength? On fine-tuning and forcing ASH-82 or on zdorovichki in 3000 mares? It would improve the performance of La-5, and YOU propose bringing a healthy engine for which there is no aircraft yet. How many new planes were launched in the war years? Zero. Tu-2 can not be considered. So, that Shvetsov well done, that did not begin to be exchanged at that time for those engines that might be needed after the war. But he brought his M-82 and even managed to introduce a model with direct fuel injection. By the way, even for the Americans and the British, who worked in completely different conditions, it turned out to be quite difficult.
    And about the Mustang’s maneuverability. Well, it has long been a known fact that, under equal conditions, a plane with a laminar wing is inferior in maneuverability both in horizontal and in vertical. And across the laws of physics you can’t trample
  20. Torins
    Torins 17 June 2016 14: 32
    0
    Quote: Todessichel
    Ours then just squeezed out of the engines all that is possible and not possible.
    The power limit has been reached for a La with a forced American export engine for reconstructing the Shvetsov and Yak with its VKHNUMX-hispanosyuiza.
    After departure, melted candles were exchanged for la and oil was drained from the pistons.
    Overheating of the engine sometimes occurred before takeoff.
    The lack of power of the VK105 was compensated by the absence of any booking on the yak aircraft, which cost the lives of many of our pilots.
    And there was still not enough power.

    You have some exaggerated information. There were problems with aircraft engines in all countries and on all aircraft, but these problems were different. Soviet motors, as you rightly pointed out, constantly forced, because a new generation of piston engines was in constant development and they managed to go into series only at the end of the war. But! The problems that you described did not happen everywhere and only in violation of the aircraft operating instructions, namely, a significant excess of the afterburner operating time. Battles where it was necessary to force the engines so did not happen often, they were serviced quite simply, and were rated quite high in terms of their operational qualities. The reservation on the yaks was, consisted of an armor plate and, starting with the Yak-1B, also frontal bulletproof glass. Lavochkin’s planes were also booked. That was quite enough. As a matter of fact, and engine power in the conditions in which they were operated.
  21. Captain Pushkin
    Captain Pushkin 8 December 2016 20: 18
    +1
    Quote: Verdun
    The Americans went the other way. They increased the working volume of motors,

    The Americans went the other way - they increased the compression ratio, because, unlike the Germans and us, they had high-octane gasoline. Therefore, the American and English engines had a higher liter capacity. As a result, the ability to always have faster aircraft than ours or German peers.
  22. Captain Pushkin
    Captain Pushkin 8 December 2016 20: 27
    +1
    Quote: qwert
    Where to throw strength? To fine-tune and force the ASh-82 or to zdorovichki in 3000 mares?


    An alternative to the M-82 was the M-71 and M-90. And there were planes for them. For example, according to flight data, the I-185 in 1942 with the M-71 was superior to the La-7 of the 1944 model with the M-82. And the Su-6 with the M-71 exceeded in all respects not only the IL-2, but also the IL-10.
    The problem was that it was not possible to produce simultaneously 2 types of air-cooled engines (on equipment released after the removal of the M-25 / M-62).
  23. beeper
    beeper 7 June 2017 13: 52
    +1
    Handsome plane! Of the German Ta.152 fighters I like the most! wink
  24. passerby5
    passerby5 19 December 2017 15: 25
    0
    Amurets,
    even thought: there were no high-quality fuels and lubricants ..... so look for them, how do we live, how would it be ...
  25. Vier_E
    Vier_E 8 March 2018 18: 24
    0
    Quote: Kenneth
    What an ugly plane. Truly gloomy Teutonic genius.

    Well, for me, the most beautiful single-engine piston fighter of all time. Not that all sorts of "anchors" and "shops" - that’s where the ugly cars are.