Military Review

Soviet aviation suffered the smallest casualties in World War II from all the warring powers

385
Soviet aviation suffered the smallest casualties in World War II from all the warring powers


The comparable losses of the air forces of all countries participating in World War II: http://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/205/813676-2.html Interestingly, it turns out aviation The USSR suffered the smallest losses from all the warring countries, and indeed ALL, both the countries of the anti-Hitler coalition and the "Axis powers".

And the data are:
In the first place - Japan: 60,750 killed pilots (well, this is understandable, "kamikaze", traditions of honor, etc.)
In second place - Germany: 57.137 killed pilots.
In third place - England: 56.821 killed the pilot.
In fourth place - USA: 40,061 killed the pilot.
And on the FIFTH, the last place - the USSR: 34.500 killed pilots.
Losses are even less than in the USA! Why?

Maybe the Soviet commanders hesitantly used the aircraft, "protected" it? Not! Aviation of the USSR used THROUGH more intensively than Germany - during the war years on the Eastern front, German aviation made 1 373 952 combat sorties, and the USSR aviation - 3 808 136 sorties!

This fact alone breaks into tales the legends of the Lapotny Roly, who, they say, is stupid, stupid and not too far to fight on equal terms with the "civilized Aryans" - for military aviation is always, then and now, the technical elite of the army. And a combat pilot is a unique fighter that combines the knowledge and intelligence of an engineer with the skills and reflexes of a professional Olympic-level athlete. Therefore, the main thing is to save the pilot, since compared to the cost of his training, the plane itself is a penny ...

However, the loss of the "material part" of the USSR is also not in the first place:

During the Second World War, the aircraft of the warring countries lost:
1. German Air Force: 85.650 aircraft;
2. Japanese Air Force: 49.485 aircraft;
3. Soviet Air Force: 47.844 aircraft;
4. USAF: 41,575 aircraft;
5. British Air Force: 15.175 aircraft.

(The number of lost cars is much smaller than the number of pilots killed by the British because, for example, the English Lancaster bomber had a crew of 7 people, and it was the British heavy strategic bombers who fought mostly with the British)

Yes, the USSR lost the most of the aircraft from the countries of the anti-Hitler coalition, but less than any of the enemy countries.
Originator:
http://psyont.livejournal.com/9824029.html
385 comments
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  1. Muvka
    Muvka 7 June 2016 18: 09
    +4
    That's where we got so many great pilots that the NATO people are afraid of. Genes ...
    1. avvg
      avvg 7 June 2016 18: 20
      +8
      In a word - Our Grandfathers knew how to fight and fought with dignity!
  2. Thunderbolt
    Thunderbolt 7 June 2016 18: 10
    +9
    Therefore, the main thing is to save the pilot, because compared to the cost of training it, the plane itself is a penny ...
    Somehow it jars .... the pilot must be saved, because his life itself is precious, and the plane will make new "hardware". Of course, there is a cruel arithmetic of war, but somehow it is necessary to be careful with expressions.
  3. megafair
    megafair 7 June 2016 18: 12
    +5
    And the aviation suffered significant losses in the first hours after the treacherous attack without having time to take off. But this is a separate topic. The main thing is that the above statistics shatters to smithereens all attempts to belittle the role of the USSR and overestimate the role of "allies". And all those who claim that the Soviet soldier did not know how to fight should re-read the historical facts;)
    1. vv3
      vv3 7 June 2016 19: 39
      .
      The topic is different, but no one suffered significant losses in the first hours. This tale was invented later to hide the complete lack of leadership in the Air Force. On June 1, 1941, arrests began, followed by the shooting of the high command of the Air Force. The last group was shot by Stalin's dogs on February 23, 1942. Teach and remember history, stupidity and cruelty cannot be hidden behind the figures of the article.
      1. asiat_61
        asiat_61 8 June 2016 00: 43
        +7
        You write, complete nonsense, at least sometimes turn on your head. no one suffered significant losses in the first hoursIt turns out that some just walked forward without shooting. And others just walked back without shooting. Lack of leadership in the Air Force .. end of quote .. And when these stunned were shot a little, then for some reason Stalinist dogs.
      2. The comment was deleted.
  4. sever.56
    sever.56 7 June 2016 18: 13
    +21
    Friends, the most disgusting thing is that nobody needs such a truth in the West. And about our liberoids, such as Gozman (I hate to endure him) and there is nothing to say ... According to him, we paved the way to Berlin with corpses, and the Germans, all such educated and cool fighters, stacked our fighters in packs.
    Recently I read how statistics of victories of aces pilots were kept by us and the Germans - it turns out that in order to take into account the plane you shot down, confirmation of several pilots participating in that battle was required, and, if possible, confirmation from the ground. The Germans considered downed planes differently: - An airplane shot down in a group, but not exactly determined by whom it was shot down, was written at all. The pilot, having just flown to the airfield from a solitary hunt, could say that he shot down at least five planes, and they wrote to him about it.
    After this material, I realized where the Germans got so many pseudo-Aasses, who accounted for nearly five hundred shot down planes.
    1. cniza
      cniza 7 June 2016 18: 16
      +6
      Quote: sever.56
      Friends, the most disgusting thing is that nobody needs such a truth in the West.


      They are afraid of her and carefully hide.
    2. tiredwithall
      tiredwithall 7 June 2016 18: 19
      +2
      Quote: sever.56
      Friends, the most disgusting thing is that nobody needs such a truth in the West.


      But there is WE.
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. Ami du peuple
      Ami du peuple 7 June 2016 19: 04
      +9
      Quote: sever.56
      After this material, I realized where the Germans got so many pseudo-Oasis from,
      "Pseudo-oses" are "five"! Pseudo-races are pseudo-races. laughing By the way, I never had confidence in the objectivity of the results of the same "most effective fighter pilot of the Second World War" "Bubi" Hartman. The only one, damn it - in a little over two years to shoot down 352 enemy aircraft. And as I read in his memoirs, how he filled four Il-2 with one burst, I realized that he was a natural nonsense.
      1. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker 7 June 2016 19: 21
        +2
        Quote: Ami du peuple
        And as I read in his memoirs, how he flunked four IL-2s with one burst, I realized that he was a natural breh.

        The declared "victories" of aces of ALL parties should be divided into 4. And then we will be close to the truth.
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 7 June 2016 20: 24
          +5
          Quote: stalkerwalker
          The declared "victories" of aces of ALL parties should be divided into 4. And then we will be close to the truth.

          Why? the Germans showed the result machine gun. It does not matter that after hitting, the enemy plane safely flew away, and did not crumble into atoms. Our demanded confirmation of other participants of the battle, or ground services. And about the Americans, the German fighters with their bombers were very reluctant to get involved in a battle. Imagine a few thousand flying fortresses, each of which is armed with seven machine guns and a cannon. This is shaped suicide for Messeur.
          1. stalkerwalker
            stalkerwalker 8 June 2016 13: 37
            +2
            Quote: Mordvin 3
            Why? the Germans showed the result of a machine gun.

            Photo gun registers the fact of firing on the enemy's aircraft. But not the fact of its destruction. And if the plane went down, it is not a fact that he was shot down. As well as not the fact that the hit resulted in damage.
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 8 June 2016 14: 46
              +2
              Quote: stalkerwalker
              Photo gun registers the fact of firing on the enemy's aircraft. But not the fact of its destruction. And if the plane went down, it is not a fact that he was shot down. As well as not the fact that the hit resulted in damage.

              What am I writing about?
              Quote: Mordvin 3
              It does not matter that after hitting, the enemy plane safely flew away, and did not crumble into atoms
              1. stalkerwalker
                stalkerwalker 8 June 2016 15: 37
                +2
                Quote: Mordvin 3
                What am I writing about?

                So am I ... writing ... fellow
        2. your1970
          your1970 7 June 2016 23: 59
          +1
          that is, if he shot down three Messers, then one went to minus and ours had to give birth to him ????? belay belay belay
      2. yehat
        yehat 9 June 2016 09: 42
        0
        depending on which plane
        Hartman went through the whole war on "thin", but what modification?
        if bf109f2, then he definitely could not shoot down 4 il-2. Even one was problematic due to weak weapons.
        if the Bf109g6 is 5-point with a set of hanging guns, then it could shave 1 IL-4 completely in 2 pass. Only if they were covered by fighter aircraft, it is unlikely that after that he would have left alive. the devil is in the details.
        1. Bakht
          Bakht 9 June 2016 11: 42
          0
          There is a well-known phrase of German pilots about the IL-2 "You can't bite a hedgehog in the ass".

          But this is only at the first meetings. When the Germans received the captured planes and studied them, it was not a difficult task to bring down the IL-2 to an experienced pilot. One messer could knock down several attack aircraft. Of course, not in one queue.
          The weak point of the IL-2 was the oil pipe under the bottom. A short line was enough and the attack aircraft was doomed.

          "In this, in particular, was clearly convinced on November 8, 1941, Oberfeldwebel G. Kaiser from the III group of the 77th fighter squadron, then fighting in the Crimea. After the day before he had failed to shoot down the Il-2, demonstrate to him effective Colonel V. Mölders, Inspector General of Luftwaffe Fighter Aviation, himself took up the methods of destroying attack aircraft. “Rapid turn,” recalls Kaiser, “and at an angle of 30 ° [not 20 ° or less!] his turn bites into the Russian attack aircraft in the cockpit area. The enemy plane immediately flared up and crashed. The next moment, his voice rang out: "Did you see how I did it? Attack the next one!
          I performed his move, and the IL-2 crashed into the ground. "Repeat!" Almost like in a training battle: the same approach to the target, a short burst, and the third attack aircraft falls burning ""
    5. novobranets
      novobranets 7 June 2016 19: 30
      +3
      Quote: sever.56
      After this material, I realized where the Germans got so many pseudo-Aasses, who accounted for nearly five hundred shot down planes.

      These are just features of the Luftwaffe bookkeeping. If, for example, a group of fighters shot down a Soviet plane, then the victory was most often recorded on the leader, and there were cases that the whole group. In other words, four shot down one, recorded everything for victory, in total they shot down four. what This is the kind of mess the "pedants" had.
    6. Awaz
      Awaz 7 June 2016 20: 18
      +4
      You are right here. I read about the German aces, like the memories of one who was not killed ... He was very interested in the topic of shot down planes. They originally wrote there really anything. Moreover, all the planes of the Red Army that ended up in the German rear, not even taking off, were quickly painted by everyone who wanted to. Then they initially wrote whatever, until the picture really began to look stupid, they began to demand proof. Moreover, the lured "aces" worked without proof. This guy himself, like about Hartman, told how he allegedly shot down either five or 10 Russian planes in one day, never once providing evidence and his own people had already begun to joke about it.
      But no one particularly forbade them to lie on the eastern front, but on the western one, they could not lie so shamelessly, as the London newspapers reported losses and now, they were afraid to lie because of this. Therefore, German pilots falling from the eastern front to the western, sharply reduced the number of downed aircraft. And immediately increased how they fell on the Soviet front.
      1. yehat
        yehat 9 June 2016 09: 45
        0
        do not forget that the Germans received decent bonuses for the downed planes
        attributing was trite profitable.
    7. max73
      max73 7 June 2016 20: 56
      -3
      respected, but do not you think that you are mistaken? And, the worst thing is that you preach your "truth" with foam at the mouth and without docks ... on aviation losses and there are a lot of open sources. Of course, two times, you couldn't study these sources ... three. Tell me, pliz, if you are so literate in terms of military history, about the loss of 11-kk in the spring and summer of 42 and about the loss of the opposing German troops (Wehrmacht)?
  5. Ros 56
    Ros 56 7 June 2016 18: 19
    +6
    Yes, the USSR lost more than all aircraft from the countries of the Anti-Hitler coalition, but less than any of the opposing countries.


    I would like to look at the losses of the arrogant Saxons with striped ones, be they on the eastern front.
    Probably ours are healthier or something, at least Kozhedub laid such overloads that his eyes were climbing on the foreheads.
    1. veteran66
      veteran66 7 June 2016 19: 04
      0
      Quote: Ros 56
      Kozhedub laid such overloads that at the backdrops his eyes were poking over his forehead.

      Kozhedub is my favorite hero, the second book I read about pilots in that war (the first is about Zakhar Sorokin, northern Maresyev). With regard to overloads, then on the "Fokker" they were stronger, due to its higher speed characteristics. No need to strike at urapatriotism, the Germans were also worthy fighters.
      1. Ros 56
        Ros 56 8 June 2016 17: 38
        +1
        Quote: veteran66
        Regarding congestion,


        Overloads can be at Fokker or Lavochkin and depend on the speed of the aircraft and on the speed of movement of the control handle, the maximum overloads depend on the structural strength, let's say + 9, -5 for this aircraft. But what kind of overload the pilot will withstand, it depends on his individual health. I meant this, that Kozhedub withstood more than average. By the way, air battles at maximum speeds never fought, the head just fell off, the maximum was cut when it was necessary to catch up or run away, but there was straightforward movement.
        In fact, find the DOSAAF flying club closest to you, they usually take a ride on an aviation day, ask them to spin 5-6 figures with you in the cockpit. hi
        1. veteran66
          veteran66 9 June 2016 06: 36
          -1
          Quote: Ros 56
          By the way, air battles at maximum speeds never fought, just the head will fall off,

          did not lead, but not because the head would fall off, but simply because, for example, the vaunted messer at a speed of about 600 km / h could not be easily controlled, and our planes too, but the "Fokker" could, respectively, and the overloads were higher on it. By the way, about Kozhedub, his ability to withstand overloads was made up of his physical strength, between flights he carried weights, he could apply the appropriate efforts to the handle, there were no boosters then (as, in any case, the book says)
          1. yehat
            yehat 9 June 2016 09: 52
            0
            Messer had some difficulties with the wings - at maximum dive speeds, their strength excluded any energetic maneuvering. Plus the survivability of the wing mechanization elements. For example, the slats often refused to overload, there were problems with the control of the tail rudder. I heard, but I don't know if it's true or not - they said that from overloads on the bf109, the chassis could stop being produced. The Germans rather cautiously flew at maximum speed on a "thin" one.
            1. veteran66
              veteran66 9 June 2016 19: 49
              0
              Quote: yehat
              some difficulties with wings - at maximum dive speeds

              not only on a dive, remember Hartmann's famous parachute escape from the Mustangs. After the air battle, he tried to get away from the allies at maximum speed, but that was not the case, the speed of the "Mustangs" was higher than that of the "Messer", and there was no way to maneuver. So he had to unfasten his seat belts, open the flashlight and the handle away from him ...
        2. yehat
          yehat 9 June 2016 09: 47
          +1
          I was rolled in the 90s at the training moment-21
          most of all, I was glad not that I got on a plane, but that I did not have lunch laughing
  6. iouris
    iouris 7 June 2016 18: 29
    +2
    The term "pilot" is used unofficially in our country.
    We should talk about “pilots” and “flight crews”.
    Until mid-1944, the United States and Great Britain conducted intensive military operations against Germany by strategic bomber aviation. The crew of a massive strategic aviation aircraft usually exceeded 10 people. Of these, only 2 pilots ("pilots"). The crew of the mass Soviet aircraft is 1-2 people.
    1. veteran66
      veteran66 7 June 2016 19: 08
      +1
      Quote: iouris
      The term "pilot" is used unofficially in our country.
      We should talk about “pilots” and “flight crews”.

      well, well, a connoisseur of the headquarters ... never from his father, his brother, their fellow soldiers and their friends heard the "flight crew", they usually said respectfully "pilots", and the songs were: "pilots, bombs -planes "," one evening, when the pilots, frankly, have nothing to do ... "
      1. iouris
        iouris 7 June 2016 22: 14
        +1
        Civilians call all military men with blue collar tabs "pilots".
        You should understand the main thing: in the USA and Great Britain, on average, for each downed plane there were (approximately) 12 lost crew members, and in the USSR - 1,2.
        The author, citing statistics, should strive for objectivity.
        1. yehat
          yehat 9 June 2016 09: 54
          0
          Well, partly because in the USSR half of the fleet was single.
          and 30 thousand IL-2 two or single.
  7. Bakht
    Bakht 7 June 2016 18: 34
    +5
    Statistics is a good thing if you set the tasks correctly and consider them correctly. This article has an interesting point - the number of sorties. It turns out that Soviet aviation made almost three times as many sorties. And the losses are half that of the Germans. Well, German losses must still be reduced. Almost all Soviet aircraft were lost on the Soviet-German front. But the Germans have a different arithmetic. So with a large number of departures, losses in aircraft are almost the same.
    I would draw a different conclusion: Most of our sorties were not very productive. Again wrong. Departures of attack aircraft and bombers are not taken into account. After all, IL-2 was the most massive aircraft of the Red Army Air Force. And he is clearly not a fighter.

    The article is somehow uninformative. Need a breakdown by departures of aircraft types. How many air battles were carried out, and how many attacks and bombings. You need to know the methods of using aviation by the belligerent countries. Soviet pilots were tied to their armies and fronts. The Germans used their aviation superintensively. German pilots were called "the most tired people in the war."

    In general, the article is not very informative. And the figures given do not mean anything.
    1. papas-57
      papas-57 7 June 2016 19: 28
      +3
      "I would draw a different conclusion: Most of the sorties of our aircraft were not very effective." The goals of our and German fighters were different. Their fighters flew out to look for and shoot down the enemy. Our fighters made most of the sorties to cover their bombers and attack aircraft. And for poor cover, the flyers were not stroked on the head, they could have brought them under the tribunal. And the statistics given are hard to believe, as are the sky-high accounts of German and Japanese flyers.
      1. Bakht
        Bakht 7 June 2016 20: 33
        +7
        This also happened. But the main thing was in various methods of warfare. Soviet air armies were attached to the fronts. If the front is calm, then the Germans threw their planes to the active site. Our air armies were literally idle. They flew out to bombardment, cover and so on. That is, there were simply no goals and there was nothing to shoot down.
        German squadrons actively maneuvered along the front and were in active sections. See the recollections of that Hartmann or Rudel. Rudel generally excelled everywhere. And near Leningrad and near Stalingrad, was on the Kursk, then in Ukraine. Different methods of using the air force. Well, how can a German aircraft be shot down if it is corny not at the front.

        Then the Germans actively used free hunting (the same Hartmann). All his tactics were to climb, set from the sun, high speed when diving, strike from a short distance and escape. No carousels, no dogfights. But at Kursk he was ordered to cover the bombers and was immediately shot down. For the Soviet Air Force, the main task was to provide cover for attack aircraft and bombers. That is, work to win, not a personal account. This moment is well covered in the film and the book "Normandie-Niemen". The main thing is to complete the task, and it doesn't matter if you shot down an enemy fighter or not.
        1. Des10
          Des10 8 June 2016 13: 39
          0
          Thank you, for once, a sensible detailed comment.
        2. Warrior2015
          Warrior2015 9 June 2016 01: 36
          0
          Quote: Bakht
          Then the Germans actively used free hunting (the same Hartmann)

          By the way, only those pilots who already had 10 or more victories were entitled to such a course of action, i.e. reached the rank of "ace" according to German requirements (7, then 10 victories, the allies from the First World War - 5 victories).
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 7 June 2016 20: 42
      +2
      Quote: Bakht
      It turns out that Soviet aviation made almost three times more sorties. And the loss is half the Germans.

      Everything is simple. The Germans, unlike ours, did not fly in bad weather.
      1. your1970
        your1970 8 June 2016 00: 14
        0
        "Everything is simple here. The Germans, unlike ours, did not fly in bad weather." - You just said a terrible thing for all rezunists, SCARY, no, not so - The scariest!!!!
        At the moment, the total number of pilots is LESS than the number of pilots who can fly in SMU (difficult weather conditions). Moreover, for example, in the 90s helicopters had a ratio of about 1 (not) to 2 (with SMU). And this, taking into account modern means of navigation, communication, drives, and banal landing lamp headlights and airport lights.

        IF our YEARS-and the Germans did not fly- then this directly speaks of much higher training for Soviet pilots.And this after the slogans about "Take-off-landing-front", "50 hours of flight", etc. Only highly qualified pilots could fly in bad weather with those navigation devices and communications, but it was just stupid to go to their airfield ..
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 8 June 2016 00: 43
          +2
          Quote: your1970
          Only highly qualified pilots could fly in bad weather with those navigation devices and communications, but just stupidly go to their airfield ..

          That is how I did not think about it. I just read in my memoirs that the Germans, unlike ours, did not fly in bad weather. request
          1. Artem Popov
            Artem Popov 12 October 2018 17: 50
            0
            Quote: mordvin xnumx
            I just read in my memoirs that the Germans, unlike ours, didn’t fly in bad weather. request

            Exactly the opposite.
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 12 October 2018 19: 20
              0
              Quote: Artem Popov
              Exactly the opposite.

              Give the facts.
              1. Artem Popov
                Artem Popov 12 October 2018 20: 24
                +1
                At warspot, I recently read about one of the operations on the eastern front and the fact was cited that, due to inclement weather, the Red Army did not make any flights at all, and made a few dozen Luftwaffes, mostly rescue ones.

                Now I can't find an article, I've read a lot over the last week, but here is an excerpt from another, "Lotto" 5 out of 50 ", or a squadron for one ace":

                “After a five-day“ dry ”period, Feldwebel Martinko, who in the early morning of November 11, reported about another Pe-2 shot down, was noted with a request, although Soviet bombers and reconnaissance officers had no losses. In the morning, there was bad weather in the area of ​​Soviet airfields, and it is doubtful that "Pawns" generally rose into the air.

                The next day, for some reason, the imagination of the chief lieutenant Dukovats, who announced the downed DB-3, ran wild for some reason. According to his version, the Croatian ace attacked a group of five Ilyushin bombers covered by Airacobra, as a result one of them crashed into the Sea of ​​Azov near the coast. In this area, the Il-4 were in service with the 367th BAP of the 132nd NBAD, which did not fly during the day, there were no losses in this area and the naval Ilyushins. The "pawns" of the 366th ORAP also remained at the airfield. Only three Boston ships of the 30th ORAP of the Black Sea Fleet flew out on a mission, but soon returned due to bad weather conditions. "

                And in general there is nothing strange in the higher level of flight skill of the Luftwaffe pilots, they had a raid dozens more times than military aircraft. The very fact that HUNDRED pilots of night aviation flew more than characterizes the level of the German flight school.

                Well, I previously read that the Luftwaffe had more flexible cloud requirements, i.e. when the Red Army had already canceled flights, the Germans flew another hundred or two meters of lower cloud cover.
                1. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 12 October 2018 21: 19
                  0
                  Thank you for the facts, but nevertheless, my grandfather, the tankman, said that they didn’t fly in bad weather.
                  1. Artem Popov
                    Artem Popov 12 October 2018 21: 24
                    0
                    Nobody flew into very bad conditions. My message is that when our aircraft stopped flying, the Germans still clung to the lower edge of the region with screws.
                    From the very beginning, the Germans had full-fledged walkie-talkies on each aircraft, they used beacons, so they were not so afraid of losing their orientation.
              2. Artem Popov
                Artem Popov 12 October 2018 20: 43
                0
                but how the Germans flew
                https://books.google.ru/books?id=5WF_AwAAQBAJ&pg=PT125&lpg=PT125#v=onepage&q&f=false
        2. your1970
          your1970 8 June 2016 12: 56
          -1
          "the total number of pilots is" LESS "the number of pilots who can fly in the SMU (adverse weather conditions" - I'll get it right, I got sealed - the total number is naturally MORE than with the SMU repeat
        3. Warrior2015
          Warrior2015 9 June 2016 01: 53
          0
          Quote: your1970
          IF our Germans DIDN'T FLY, then this directly speaks of the much higher training of Soviet pilots. And this is after the slogans about "Take-off-landing-front", "50 hours of flight", etc. Only highly qualified pilots could fly in bad weather with those navigation devices and means of communication, but it's just stupid to go to your airfield ..

          Well, I don’t know where you have read such tales. Both sides flew in bad weather, and ours were smaller, and the Germans very actively used it for their attack aircraft.
          1. your1970
            your1970 9 June 2016 19: 03
            0
            All questions to a colleague:

            Mordvin 3 (1) RU June 7, 2016 20:42 ↑
            Quote: Bakht
            It turns out that Soviet aviation made almost three times more sorties. And the loss is half the Germans.
            Everything is simple. The Germans, unlike ours, did not fly in bad weather.
  8. Dmitry Potapov
    Dmitry Potapov 7 June 2016 18: 42
    +2
    Quote: Thunderbolt
    Therefore, the main thing is to save the pilot, because compared to the cost of training it, the plane itself is a penny ...
    Somehow it jars .... the pilot must be saved, because his life itself is precious, and the plane will make new "hardware". Of course, there is a cruel arithmetic of war, but somehow it is necessary to be careful with expressions.

    I agree, but it seems that the author wanted to say just that, he just didn’t put it that way, not everyone can be prepared.
  9. masiya
    masiya 7 June 2016 18: 51
    0
    All this dregs, everyone can consider from their own point of view, and from any angle, it’s clear only that the level of our WWII air forces is not worse, but an order of magnitude higher, and decent and allies, so there’s no reason to argue about the number of sorties, and the statistics more than to some extent demagogy, too many factors must be considered for an objective analysis - WHO IS BETTER, STRONGER AND EFFECTIVE ...
  10. Atlant-1164
    Atlant-1164 7 June 2016 18: 58
    +2
    they did not have their own
    Pokryshkin, Alexander Ivanovich and Ivan Nikitovich Kozhedub. Because they lost more than us.
  11. iliitchitch
    iliitchitch 7 June 2016 18: 58
    -1
    The losses were huge. But the Nippons suffered the most, the Nippon sufferers. Ask the Chinese and Mongols who the Japanese are. And the Americans suffered huge losses. Spent the money, poor things. Yes, what for stupid load, huh? Rewriting the results in pure form.
  12. Atlant-1164
    Atlant-1164 7 June 2016 18: 58
    +2
    heroes for ages.
  13. Alexanderrr
    Alexanderrr 7 June 2016 19: 06
    0
    It is also worth noting that the Germans are not Aryans. But they, and especially the top of the Reich, really wanted to be Aryans and under this they brought up a falsified base. And under a slightly modified ancient symbol, the Aryans attacked the descendants of the Aryans. And attacked vilely and treacherously. I suspect - Hitler knew the truth and knew who he was attacking, and therefore he was ogreb, as the enemies of the Russian Land fenced as always!
    1. The comment was deleted.
  14. Berkut24
    Berkut24 7 June 2016 19: 06
    +2
    I don’t want to say anything bad about our aviation and especially the pilots. Moreover, in the beginning of the 30s there was almost none of these. We started from scratch and from poverty.
    BUT! I do not understand the strange statistics of the article, where it turns out that everyone fought against everyone. And if you collect statistics on the groups, as it was in fact Britons + USSR + partially the USA, it turns out that the Germans won 2 fronts better than anyone else.
    Again, the saying that statistics is the second oldest profession comes to mind.
    1. masiya
      masiya 7 June 2016 20: 00
      0
      That’s for sure, in parallel with that old profession on earth, and the same friend - PROSTITUTION, whoever orders something and gets it ...
    2. Awaz
      Awaz 7 June 2016 20: 24
      +2
      Well, they did not fight almost on the second front. I will not describe in more detail, but the second front on earth looked something like this .http: //topnewsrussia.ru/geroicheskaya-vysadka-soyuznikov-v-normandii/
      moreover, in Africa, the Germans were finished off by Soviet prisoners of war, who captured the main German airfield and finally depriving them of their reserves.
      The British and Americans fought with the Germans throughout the war on a front with a width of one hundred kilometers. Yes, and the allies of the Germans bombed (as already mentioned above) selectively and mainly by a peaceful people, without touching strategic enterprises.
      1. Berkut24
        Berkut24 7 June 2016 20: 31
        -1
        Well, there are two points. The first moment - "Battle of Britain". We learned our history, like the Great Patriotic War ... But the Second World War began earlier and the batch over England was not weak.
        And the second moment - at the end of the 44th beginning of the 45th, the British and Americans literally hung over Germany. Rammed in black. Another thing is that the Germans had almost no more pilots and fuel left.
        1. your1970
          your1970 8 June 2016 00: 17
          0
          "But the Second World War began earlier and the batch over England was not weak."
          half a year at the front, half a year you relax / upgrade your skills (English), nice thing ....
        2. Awaz
          Awaz 8 June 2016 19: 21
          +4
          I will give two examples. The first is about your favorite "Battle of Britain". We recall the Dunkirk operation (if you can call it that). The allies, not at all pursued by the Germans, fled towards Britain across the strait, abandoning all equipment and ditching a decent number of personnel.
          And now the second one. Odessa 1941. The city is densely surrounded and shelled from all sides. But the Soviet authorities took out all the personnel with equipment without a single victim, and even steam engines were taken out of the port .. In one night, Karl !!!!
          Well, for dessert - remember the collapse of the Allies under the Ardennes. As soon as the Germans decided to seriously fight these fighters, they immediately crossed their legs and fled to England. And they would have escaped, if not for the Red Army.
          Well, the Allies did not fight with the Germans, they just pretended ...
          1. Warrior2015
            Warrior2015 9 June 2016 01: 39
            0
            Quote: AwaZ
            remember the collapse of the allies under the Ardennes. As soon as the Germans decided to seriously fight these fighters, they immediately crossed their legs and fled to England. And they would have escaped, if not for the Red Army.

            A simple example is matching dates. The Red Army began to advance when the German offensive ALREADY drowned. Incidentally, due to the heroic resistance of the American infantry and anti-tank units. Then the tanks and aircraft pulled themselves together.
  15. Bakht
    Bakht 7 June 2016 19: 11
    +6
    Evidence of loss can be harsh reality. In 1941, the average life expectancy of an attack pilot was 3-4 sorties. For 10 successful assignments they gave the Hero of the Soviet Union. Is this talking about something? Only after the 43rd year they began to give for 40 completed tasks, and by the end of the war for 80.

    To my shame, I only recently read about the Peresypkin family carriage. Very impressive article: Until death do us part.

    http://www.yaplakal.com/forum7/topic1107768.html

    1. Tusv
      Tusv 7 June 2016 20: 37
      0
      Quote: Bakht
      Evidence of loss can be harsh reality. In 1941, the average life expectancy of an attack pilot was 3-4 sorties. For 10 successful assignments they gave the Hero of the Soviet Union. Is this talking about something?

      That Ilyusha was single. When we realized that we can blindfold single people as much as we want, but there will be no more pilots, we took up our minds
    2. Awaz
      Awaz 8 June 2016 19: 24
      +1
      where is the quote from? from the same series that the squadron lives for three days. Yes ? count somehow your thoughts on the calculator ... and where would you get so many people?
      1. Bakht
        Bakht 8 June 2016 23: 03
        -1
        From order 299 of August 19, 1941, signed by Comrade People’s Defense I. Stalin.

        For successful assault operations on enemy troops, pilots are awarded and presented to the government award:
        for performing 5 sorties to destroy enemy troops, a fighter pilot receives a monetary reward of 1500 rubles;
        for performing 15 sorties, the fighter pilot is presented to the government award and receives a cash award of 2000 rubles;
        for performing 25 sorties, the fighter pilot is presented to the second government award and receives a cash award of 3000 rubles;
        for completing 40 sorties, a fighter pilot is presented with the highest government award - the title of Hero of the Soviet Union and receives a cash award of 5000 rubles.


        There is information on Wikipedia that in the 41st they gave for 10 sorties (according to other sources for 30).
        In Drabkin's book "I fought in an IL-2" there is information that by the end of the war they were flying 80 sorties in an attack aircraft.
        In the same book by Drabkin there are repeated statements by pilots that the losses among the shooters were very large. Almost every veteran says that he replaced 3-4 shooters.
        1. Awaz
          Awaz 9 June 2016 17: 52
          0
          there is also logic. The death of a gunner on IL 2 is 99% death of an airplane. for all his vitality, he will not be able to get away from the fighter.
          1. Bakht
            Bakht 9 June 2016 18: 11
            0
            Read Drabkin. This is not fiction. These are the memories of front-line pilots. I think they knew better the subject of our discussion. For some reason, I believe them more than everything that is written here.
  16. Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 7 June 2016 19: 14
    +1
    Like all decent, I’m ready to cheer, cheers, but I don’t believe it. I looked at the links, but I’m not familiar with the topic will break my neck.
    But unfortunately it was not like that. We darned holes and threw VVU cadets and "pilots" who made 9 takeoffs and 9 landings into the holes. From the remaining after 3-5 sorties, aces were obtained.
    Therefore, the article is like hurray, hurray, but I don't believe it. On the other hand, an ideological sabotage is seen. Dogs, again run the circuit. (The loss of the Japanese was especially striking, "well, this is understandable," kamikaze ", traditions of honor, etc." That’s the shit. How many of these "divine breezes" were there? And where? To the sedimentation tanks? Alas, everything was wrong.
    1. Alex_59
      Alex_59 7 June 2016 20: 01
      +11
      Quote: Mavrikiy
      We darned holes and threw VVU cadets and "pilots" who made 9 takeoffs and 9 landings into the holes. From the remaining after 3-5 sorties, aces were obtained.

      My grandfather went through the war from call to call as the chief of intelligence of the IAP of the Navy. Your words are wrong. First of all, they may give rise to a false opinion that "throwing into battle" unfired pilots was the norm, not the exception. And the truth is that, of course, there were such cases, but only during the most difficult period of the war - the end of 41st and 42nd years, and even then not all. After the 42nd, the preparation questions were fine-tuned. In particular, the IAP of my grandfather in 43 was withdrawn for replenishment and training in the rear for a period of more than six months. During this period, the regiment was replenished with pilots from the ZAPs, already trained and received in-depth training already as part of the line regiment. In the 41st IAP, my grandfather suffered heavy losses near Nikolaev and Ochakov, and was withdrawn to Yeisk for only a couple of months - there, there was no special preparation and rest, but this is the fall of the 41st. And already in the 44th in the Baltic ... There was already a machine for packing the Germans to the ancestors.
      1. uragan114
        uragan114 7 June 2016 21: 29
        0
        Quote: Alex_59
        . And already in the 44th in the Baltic ...There was already a machine for packing Germans to forefathers.


        Well said. Plus. soldier
      2. Alex_59
        Alex_59 7 June 2016 22: 29
        +3
        Quote: Alex_59
        In particular, in the 43 year, my grandfather’s IAP was launched for replenishment and training in the rear for a period of more than six months. During this period, the regiment was replenished by pilots from ZAPs, already trained and received advanced training already as part of the line regiment. In the 41th IAP, my grandfather suffered heavy losses near Nikolaev and Ochakov, and was withdrawn to Yeysk for a couple of months - there, there wasn’t much preparation and rest, but this is the autumn of 41. And in 44 in the Baltic ... There was already a machine for packing the Germans to the pro-fathers.

        Here are the exact details. 9-IAP 11-th SHAD Air Force Black Sea Fleet
        In battles with 22.06.41, Nikolaev, Ochakov
        Withdrawn from the front of 09.41 by 10.41 to Yeysk
        In the battles from 10.41 to 15.10.42, the defense of the Crimea, the departure to Anapa, Gelendzhik
        Withdrawn from the front from 15.10.42 to 19.05.1943 in Abkhazia
        In the battles from 19.05.1943 to 19.05.1944, the liberation of the Kuban, Crimea.
        Relocated to BF between 19.05 and 03.06.1944
        And so on. As you can see in the 41 year, the IAP rested and replenished for only a month, and at the end of the 42 year, it’s 7 months. Since the 43 year, it has not been reorganized at all and has not been set aside for replenishment - there was no need, losses were bearable. And in the second conclusion at the end of the 42 year, the grandfather managed to go to Samara, on vacation and find the family that he considered dead in the 41 year near Nikolaev. Those. even gave pilots time to travel on vacation.
        1. a housewife
          a housewife 8 June 2016 01: 07
          +4
          Yes, the Germans staged a hammer drill over Kuban! Thanks to the pilots and your grandfather as well!
          1. Artem Popov
            Artem Popov 12 October 2018 17: 05
            -1
            Arranged, but themselves prayed. At warspot there was a detailed analysis of actions, by the day, with the name of the pilots on both sides. Soviet pilots inflated their victories by an average of 6 times.
        2. The comment was deleted.
    2. fzr1000
      fzr1000 8 June 2016 03: 39
      0
      Zilch? Sure?
      According to Naito Hatsaho in suicide attacks in 1944-45. 2525 sea and 1388 army pilots were killed, and of the 2550 Kamikaze missions, 475 were successful.
      Even if you take half of these figures, then for a year this is a lot.
  17. staryivoin
    staryivoin 7 June 2016 19: 21
    +2
    Quote: stalkerwalker
    Follow the link to the original site (von_Hoffman), I assure you - you will be disappointed ..

    Follow the link yourself !!! Take the level of combat training of the Luftwaffe and Soviet pilot. Remember how many planes you did not manage to save on the first day of the war. I do not completely deny the content of your posts. But the truth is in one thing, then they sat at the controls of the Soviet aviation during the battles of the Second World War to prove their strength and skill by convincingly demonstrating this to the "Goering fleet". There are plenty of examples and literary sources on this subject. You just need not take one article or link for the whole truth. Comrades on the site correctly write - do not believe everything that the WEST is now writing about the Great War. For this they pay, and those who pay need such a truth to wash away the memory of the feat of the SOVIET people. In general, something like this.
    1. stalkerwalker
      stalkerwalker 7 June 2016 19: 30
      +2
      Quote: staryivoin
      Follow the link yourself !!!

      And send you, stern bullfinch warrior? what
      Quote: staryivoin
      Comrades on the site I write correctly

      With such comrades it’s good to win victories on the couch.
      Quote: staryivoin
      There are plenty of examples and literary sources on this subject.

      That's it. Full of. These pseudo-patriots do not read Tokma. They are ready to tear with their teeth those who put the Yak-1 below Bf-109 in their performance characteristics.
      So, and you do not get sick. And then again declare that Rotmistrov in July 43rd, 500 tigers and panthers burned ...
    2. overb
      overb 7 June 2016 19: 33
      0
      Quote: staryivoin
      Remember how many planes did not have time to save on the first day of the war.

      On the ground? Relatively little. More talk about them, it was something in the ranks of more than 30 thousand.
    3. Awaz
      Awaz 7 June 2016 20: 26
      0
      the Germans already in 44 there was a serious shortage of fighter pilots. They began to retrain bombers in fighters, filling bombers with people from the street ... This is a well-known fact.
  18. firefighter
    firefighter 7 June 2016 19: 37
    0
    informative. cleverly. but try to find supporting links. HOPE this is not a linden tree. Our pilots are always the best !!!
  19. gelezo47
    gelezo47 7 June 2016 19: 39
    +3
    These were our grandfathers and grandmothers ases in the sky! ....
  20. Jackking
    Jackking 7 June 2016 19: 41
    0
    It is interesting to read the authors who, just give me a clue, will start pouring slops to their own country - they were not too lazy to calculate the lend-lease, the availability of aircraft on June 22, issue. And, cheers, they pressed the rashka on the truth - it’s important that it had lost a hundredth. Hooks, which, even if opponents don’t water their shit, will find shit tubs to water their dumb head ...
    They probably think that the USSR ended the war under zero whole planes, but the Nazis and Anglo-Saxons they loved started the war with zero planes and did not lose them at all during the war ...
  21. Lens
    Lens 7 June 2016 19: 43
    -4
    The losses of the Luftwaffe were calculated in a very original (but correct in my opinion) - the plane returned to the base and the damage caused to it was calculated as a percentage. Then either repair or write-off. Many of our pilots declared victories, and historically it turned out that after, "bad memory, bad" returned to duty. The journalists of the "Aviation and Time" edition cover these topics very carefully in their articles. They do not take numbers from Wikipedia, but work with archives, eyewitness memories. So, according to their conclusions, the losses of the Germans must be divided by two and the victories of our pilots, unfortunately, too. Especially such blunders became frequent after the "break" in the Second World War. While 41 required multiple confirmations, 44 required a few words of follower confirmation. I didn't follow the links. I believe that the numbers there will match. But this is how Rezun-Suvorov's data can be taken at face value - he also did not take data from the ceiling. He just jerked slightly and ... Voila!
    1. PHANTOM-AS
      PHANTOM-AS 7 June 2016 21: 00
      +6
      Quote: Lens
      Many of our pilots declared victories, and historically it turned out that after, "bad memory, bad" returned to duty. The journalists of the "Aviation and Time" edition cover these topics very carefully in their articles.

      For starters, you would familiarize yourself with how enemy aircraft shot down were recorded in the USSR Air Force.
      They believed the Hans at their word, so they did not even have shot down, but only "wounded", besides, shot down in the group were attributed to each participant of the battle separately, i.e. one shot down could sign up for three.
      In our aviation, everything was many times more complicated, only the shot down ones were written to the personal account only (and not in the group). At the expense of the downed aircraft, several confirmations were required, from the participants in the battle and, necessarily, from ground services.
      Strictly speaking, in Soviet pilots, many air victories were simply not taken into account, for example, when the enemy was shot down over the territory occupied by the enemy, and there was no one to confirm the victory.

      "From the very first day of the war, yesterday's locksmith of the Krasny Profintern plant, Pavel Mikhailovich Kamozin, was at the front. He took part in battles on the South, Transcaucasian, North Caucasian and other fronts. During the war years, he made 200 sorties, shot down 36 enemy aircraft personally and 13 in group battles. In 1943 he shot down an aircraft that was guarded by 6 Messerschmitts. Then 18 fascist generals and officers were killed. "
      http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/kamozin1.htm
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 8 June 2016 12: 01
        +1
        Quote: PHANTOM-AS
        In our aviation, everything was many times more complicated, only the shot down ones were written to the personal account only (and not in the group). At the expense of the downed aircraft, several confirmations were required, from the participants in the battle and, necessarily, from ground services.

        Yeah ... and even here there were balls that brought confirmations from several parts and gave out one victory for several. And this only surfaced when such pilots were too buried:
        Having personal indiscretion and attachment to Government awards, not satisfied with the two orders already received, comrade Fyodorov took the path of extortion and fraud, ascribing to himself non-existent military merit (15 personally shot down and 3 wrecked enemy aircraft).
        As a result of the insistent demands of Colonel FEDOROV, the commander of 6 IAK presented an award sheet for conferring the title of Hero of the Soviet Union on Colonel FEDOROV. When considering the award material in January 1944, I was refused representation.
        In the month of February 1944, the commander of the 6th IAK re-presented the award sheet with the application of certificates of downed enemy aircraft. Considering the award sheet and the certificates attached to it, I had a doubt about the correctness of the latter, i.e. whether certificates for the same downed planes were issued, only in different parts and persons. Having asked the Commander of the Air Force 3 on the merits of this question, I received an answer as I had previously assumed that Colonel FEDOROV showed exceptional dishonesty and fraud, attributing to himself twice the same aircraft shot down by him.
        For the unworthy behavior of a senior officer, expressed in extortion and fraud, as well as unsatisfactory work as a division commander, I petition for the removal of Colonel FEDOROV from his post and for his appointment with demotion.
        Commander of 16 VA Lieutenant General of Aviation S. I. Rudenko 7.04.1944/XNUMX/XNUMX
      2. Artem Popov
        Artem Popov 12 October 2018 17: 00
        -1
        Only for some reason, a analysis of the statistics of victorious reports of the same battles over the Kuban shows a six-fold excess of the victories declared by Soviet pilots over real results (Luftwaffe railway transport). The German pilots claimed THERE about twice as much as the losses in the railway units of the Soviet units were taken into account, but the Germans took VICTORIES, rather than BROKEN, so that it was more than excusable to them, and if half of those killed reached the airfield, the Germans were generally crystal clear ( especially since the film camera will not let you lie)
    2. Artem Popov
      Artem Popov 12 October 2018 17: 03
      -1
      the Germans registered not shot down, but victories in aerial combat, so nothing needs to be calculated there.
  22. Alex_59
    Alex_59 7 June 2016 19: 51
    +7
    I fully believe in such statistics, because I was personally involved in calculating the losses of ship personnel on the eastern front for the USSR and Germany + allies. Duck, the numbers overturn some stereotypes, for example, about the devastating 41st year and, in general, about the concept of blitzkrieg. For example, because in 4 months and 9 days of 45, the USSR sank more ships and vessels of Germany than in 41, in 6 months and 9 days, Germany sank ships and ships of the USSR. And we have stereotypes based on films and books - such as "Torpedo Bombers" and others. The tragedy of the destruction of transport ships with civilians is very much emphasized there, and this is indeed a tragedy, but the revenge of the red army was even more stunning and difficult for the Germans. And there are still people who, for example, believe that the Soviet Navy was helplessly pressed to the shore and was inactive, and the Germans dominated the sea until May 9, 45, which is completely refuted by statistics. It was just that the Soviet Navy had developed an ideal victory mechanism by the 45th year, a steam roller, which was not idle at all, but did with the Germans what he wanted and when he wanted, it was just that the basis of this mechanism was naval aviation and not battleships and other crew members.
    1. Artem Popov
      Artem Popov 12 October 2018 16: 53
      0
      Yeah, only the Germans drowned combat-ready destroyers-cruisers-battleships, and the Navy aviation drowned auxiliary vessels and training ships.
  23. Arct
    Arct 7 June 2016 20: 13
    +6
    And for some reason all would-be commentators like to count "numbers" with many zeros, but do not like to look objectivity in the eye. They wrote about the mass of Soviet aircraft destroyed on the ground - at least they remember it. Who else had something like that? Nobody. But why did they forget about the monstrous accident rate of 1942 and early 1943, caused by OBJECTIVE reasons? Who else from the belligerent countries massively transferred production? Nobody. But accidental losses also go into statistics. Well, about the "experts" of the German aviation has long been tired of talking. If they managed to engage in postscripts in the battles over Great Britain and Africa, what can we say about the Eastern Front. And the edits of 46-47 are ridiculous when the downed P-5 and Po-2 were replaced in the restored documents with Ily, Yaki and Migi ...
    1. Artem Popov
      Artem Popov 12 October 2018 16: 49
      -2
      "About the mass of Soviet aircraft destroyed on the ground" - for the most part a myth.
      "Who else from the belligerent countries massively transferred production" - Germany, and, unlike the USSR, transferred the entire industry, not part.
  24. demiurg
    demiurg 7 June 2016 20: 15
    0
    Quite real numbers. By the end of the war, and the "extra" aircraft and crews appeared only then, for every front-line Il-2 / Yak-3 / La-7 there were 2-3 in reserve. In 41-42, cars from the factory went to the front. And at 44 no longer. Any front-line vehicle must use up its resource before replacement. Otherwise, the car will not be written off.
    By the end of 44, there were simply no goals for so many planes.
    And the number of dead pilots. Many pilots replaced 2-3 cars. Someone was less fortunate.
  25. Filxnumx
    Filxnumx 7 June 2016 20: 32
    +1
    Quote: Vladimirets
    Quote: demo
    Those. The Germans, after they were kicked out of the USSR by ours and driven to Berlin, suddenly transferred several air armies to the west and allowed the USSR Air Force to dominate the sky.
    What they did not understand at all what it threatens with?

    I will not say for sure now, but, in principle, this is logical. On the eastern front, the Germans dealt mainly with our Wehrmacht front-line bomber and attack aircraft. In the west, the Allies with the help of DB destroyed Germany's industry. What was more important for the Reich?

    I completely agree with you. The German command (OKL) considered the main threat to be the strategic bomber aviation of the allies and kept the main fighter forces on the western front. This can be seen in the number of aces who fought there and in the number of new and experimental aircraft. And against the Soviet aviation, the minimum necessary forces acted to carry out containment of our offensive. And even despite this imbalance, the air battles on the eastern front were very fierce. But even so, the main article of losses of Soviet aviation is accidents and missing persons. So V.I. Alekseenko (military engineer, test pilot), on the basis of archival data from TsAMO, published a very remarkable table of comparative losses of our aviation for 1944, separately for fighters, bombers and attack aircraft, and separately for reasons of losses: shot down by enemy fighters, shot down anti-aircraft guns, lost in accidents and disasters, destroyed at airfields, written off due to wear and tear, and also "did not return from a combat mission", that is, disappeared without a trace. So, if you do not take into account the losses in flight schools and training regiments and written off due to wear and tear, all losses from the enemy's influence are brought into one column, then the following picture is obtained for front-line aviation:
    1. Shot down by the enemy: fighters - 906; bombers - 121; attack aircraft - 723.
    2. Lost in accidents: fighters - 1430; bombers - 299; attack aircraft - 733.
    3. Did not return from the combat mission (the cause is unknown, missing) fighters - 2630; bombers - 594; attack aircraft - 2999.
    And it’s only for airplanes. Yes, of course, not all the crews of these more than 6 thousand missing planes died, may have been captured (Soviet prisoners of war were both in the 44th and 45th years), but the reasons for the loss of about half of the planes and their crews are still unknown . And this is provided that more than 90% of all sorties were carried out to cover troops, that is, in front of our infantry, over the front line or in tactical depth. Some researchers have a version that in the missing were recorded dead in plane accidents in order to hide the true state of accident in the Soviet Air Force due to poor training of the flight personnel and poor condition of the aircraft itself due to the fact that aircraft factories and military representatives with them, performing the plan for gross output did not particularly pay attention to build quality. Which, in general, looks quite believable. But can anyone have other versions?
    1. Jackking
      Jackking 8 June 2016 10: 19
      0
      there are versions - instead of digging in the manure and finding the facts of the "wrong" victory ("... to hide the true state of accidents in the Soviet Air Force due to poor training of the flight personnel and the poor condition of the aircraft itself due to the fact that aircraft factories and military representatives with them, fulfilling the plan for gross output, did not pay much attention to the build quality.), grief experts must shut up, and people living today should just remember to honor the memory of the GREAT ANCESTORS who crushed the fascist reptile. AND DO NOT ATTEMPT TO REWRITE HISTORY !!!
  26. Comrade Glebov
    Comrade Glebov 7 June 2016 20: 42
    0
    Eyes opened, honestly. +
  27. Alekseev
    Alekseev 7 June 2016 20: 47
    +3
    Quote: Militon
    You can’t deceive statistics

    Yes sir!
    Therefore, the author of the article would need to make clarifications: the losses of aircraft brought by him are common losses or combat losses?
    The USSR, according to the General Staff (a study led by General Krivosheev), lost for the war 106.4 thousand aircraft (total loss), including 46.1 thousand combat losses.
    Those. 60.3 thousand cars failed due to accidents, disasters, wear and tear, etc. reasons.
    And what about "them"? It's not clear from the article ...
  28. Cartalon
    Cartalon 7 June 2016 21: 30
    -2
    We ingeniously consider the enemy’s combat losses as general, shouting cheers
  29. akims
    akims 7 June 2016 21: 31
    +2
    The Germans themselves wrote in memoirs that despite the enormous losses in the aircraft at the beginning of 1941, the Red Army managed to maintain flight personnel. And then intensification of production, Lend-Lease deliveries, pilot training. And the Germans knocked out strong pilots by 1943, on the contrary, aces appeared in our country. Somewhere like that.
  30. Thinker
    Thinker 7 June 2016 21: 31
    -3
    I’m reading such a damn article, and even fall under the table with laughter, Germany fought against England from the age of 39, then back in Italy, France, AFRICA, only what is it worth !!! - in Russia !!!! - Against the USA, England , USSR !!! - on an ongoing basis without interruption 6 !!! years !!! one at the European theater of action against 3 hefty states in economic importance. Countries like Finland as assistants and Italy are cat's tears. Luftwaffe solved all the main tasks! !! - Are you comparing Cho there? -And this despite the fact that neither England in full-6 years nor America, especially Russia did not undergo bombing of factories all this time !!! And Germany-factories bombed the entire depth of the territory !!! Like factories in Hungary, France, etc. !!! Do not grind rubbish !!! If the USSR would have bombed the entire depth of the territory for 6 !!! - Years !!! and at the same time she would have had to fight all these 6 years against 3 such states, then I would see what would be our loss then !!!
    1. alstr
      alstr 7 June 2016 22: 33
      +2
      In fact, in the USSR, the lion's share of factories was bombed, because was in the European part. Moreover, a significant part of them was lost or did not work at full strength all 41 g.
      And the bombing of Germany (factories) is 43-44 years. Before this there was no bombing, because England had to protect its sky.
      1. Artem Popov
        Artem Popov 12 October 2018 16: 40
        0
        Let's just say that the bombing of the same GAZ did not force to evacuate it to the Urals, but the bombing of the German plants forced to completely transfer and disperse production.
        1. ecolog
          ecolog 24 October 2018 01: 11
          0
          GAZ was bombed mainly by spot, irregularly and by a small number of bombers. And then it was sensitive. If the raid were carried out (God forbid) in the English style of the 1000th Harris, then there would simply be nothing to evacuate
    2. Ami du peuple
      Ami du peuple 7 June 2016 23: 32
      +3
      Quote: Denker
      If the USSR would bomb the entire depth of the territory 6 !!! - Years !!! Russia has not been bombarded by factories all this time !!!
      Where the hell, the whole depth of Soviet territory to bomb? To Kamchatka? The entire military-industrial potential of the Union was concentrated in the west, to the Urals. Many enterprises were lost in the first year of the war, many were evacuated deep into the country (which also undermined the production of armaments - while the plant will fully work in a new place ..). And this is much worse than the damage from the bombing. Which, incidentally, the Germans really began to feel only after 1943, when the Allies took them seriously.
      Once again I am convinced that you are an incorrigible liar, the red fox Denker ...
  31. Pinkie F.
    Pinkie F. 7 June 2016 21: 56
    +3
    Immeasurable respect for our pilots of that war. To all: "zheltorotikam" (s), who perished in the first battle, and aces. Everyone. Descending - respect for allies. Respect for the enemy.
    I have no reverence for "statistics". The numbers suck as much as Rudel's memoir. Tinkering with the current new accountants in "aircraft-sorties / losses / number of shot down minus registration" in general and .. iotism. Banal blunt postmortum phallometry.
  32. PHANTOM-AS
    PHANTOM-AS 7 June 2016 21: 57
    -2
    Simonov has very good about attack pilots when the front-line soldiers awarded with Hero Stars simply drank their rewards to the usurer-georgian. The guys knew that they were unlikely to survive until victory, hence the attitude towards the awards.
  33. PHANTOM-AS
    PHANTOM-AS 7 June 2016 22: 04
    +3
    Somehow our grandfathers fought!
  34. Romanenko
    Romanenko 7 June 2016 22: 05
    +3
    Very strange statistics, I don’t know whether or not to believe, as a result, Germany and Japan lost all military and almost all military transport aircraft, but the ratio of numbers on the conscience of the author of the article is understood.
  35. Todessichel
    Todessichel 7 June 2016 22: 09
    -7
    The pressure on the moss of plasticine heads is increasing every day.
    The column of delirium in the thermometer of a sane society smoothly approaches 38.8.
    The patient is being introduced more and more new doses of antimysiotics. Doses are equine.
    The neighing of patients, too.
    Enema is prescribed and a breathtaking laxative called Brain IvredebgI, after which the contents of the head go to the place of rubber injection.
    We are waiting for the continuation of treatment ...
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 8 June 2016 00: 00
      +4
      Quote: Todessichel
      We are waiting for the continuation of treatment ...

      You, Fox, gaps, do not be fooled.
  36. certero
    certero 7 June 2016 22: 15
    -1
    Almost everything can be proved with statistics. For example, the above numbers show the "patriots" well enough that the Americans fought with great tension. And that in some sorties the losses were higher than in the USSR for attack aircraft. This is to understand what happened then to fight the Americans, it would be a terrible enemy.
    These numbers also show that the USSR fought quite skillfully, no matter how much they liked the myths about "filling the enemy with corpses."
    Conclusion: war is always terrible and it is better to do without it. And for this, the army and navy must be strong, and the country rich and comfortable for the people. Then the adversary will have less temptation to attack, and people have more desire to save this life.
    1. Artem Popov
      Artem Popov 12 October 2018 16: 39
      0
      Rather, it shows that the USSR fought non-intensely. And if you look at the ratio of the number of fighters in the Luftwaffe on the eastern front and the Red Army, it will immediately become clear that it was not we who caused the Germans losses.
  37. Mestny
    Mestny 7 June 2016 22: 32
    +2
    Quote: sever.56
    guns, the most disgusting thing is that no one needs such truth in the West. And about our liberoids, such as Gozman (I hate to endure him) and there is nothing to say ...

    Yes, even Gozman is not needed here.
    Right here, on this site, commentators flew in, flapping their wings, they say "can't be" and "get out".
    Please note that the information in the article is only controversial, that is, it requires additional clarification. But many are already clear. They have no doubt that this is all lies - precisely because it is not possible once again to establish a mantra that everything was bad in the USSR.
    Well, that is, as I understand it, if the statistics were presented exactly the opposite, with disastrous results for the USSR, would these citizens have no questions about the reliability of the source?
    At the same time, note that they position themselves as "real" patriots and fighters against narrow-minded "hurray" -patriots for the Real Truth. By the way, like our rotten liberals - lovers of the American State Department and similar "democracy". They use literally the same arguments.
    And this is on a patriotic, unlabeled site.

    And the manuals were updated quite deftly, I must say.
  38. TsUS-Air Force
    TsUS-Air Force 7 June 2016 22: 33
    0
    Well, if you start from the title of the article, you can take into account all those airfields in the Baltic states that were completely destroyed in the early days of the war. but if you do not take them into account and keep statistics just sometime later then ...
  39. PHANTOM-AS
    PHANTOM-AS 7 June 2016 22: 38
    +1
    Here is an interesting movie!

  40. hohol95
    hohol95 7 June 2016 22: 49
    -2
    And what are the losses of the following countries participating in the Second World War and the Great Patriotic War: Italy; Croatia; Bulgaria; Slovenia; Spain; Romania; flyers from Flanders (on the side of Germany); Hungary; Air Force ROA (on the side of Germany); Poland; Czechoslovakia Denmark; Norway; Greece; Yugoslavia; France; Holland!!!
  41. hohol95
    hohol95 7 June 2016 22: 59
    -1
    And remind everyone of the percentage system for accounting for damage and decommissioning of aircraft that existed in the 3rd Reich! At which a plane with damage of about 50% was considered a perfectly fit combat unit! After a short-term repair - converted to medium-term - long-term - cancellation of the aircraft! Those still had Hermann Goering's bureaucrats and hookers!
  42. hohol95
    hohol95 7 June 2016 23: 02
    -1
    And what are the losses of the following countries participating in the Second World War and the Great Patriotic War: Italy; Croatia; Bulgaria; Slovenia; Spain; Romania; flyers from Flanders (on the side of Germany); Hungary; Air Force ROA (on the side of Germany); Poland; Czechoslovakia Denmark; Norway; Greece; Yugoslavia; France; Holland; Finland!!!
  43. Mestny
    Mestny 7 June 2016 23: 02
    -1
    Quote: sever.56
    guns, the most disgusting thing is that no one needs such truth in the West. And about our liberoids, such as Gozman (I hate to endure him) and there is nothing to say ...

    Yes, even Gozman is not needed here.
    Right here, on this site, commentators flew in, flapping their wings, they say "can't be" and "get out".
    Please note that the information in the article is only controversial, that is, it requires additional clarification. But many are already clear. They have no doubt that this is all lies - precisely because it is not possible once again to establish a mantra that everything was bad in the USSR.
    Well, that is, as I understand it, if the statistics were presented exactly the opposite, with disastrous results for the USSR, would these citizens have no questions about the reliability of the source?
    At the same time, note that they position themselves as "real" patriots and fighters against narrow-minded "hurray" -patriots for the Real Truth. By the way, like our rotten liberals - lovers of the American State Department and similar "democracy". They use literally the same arguments.

    And the manuals were updated quite deftly, I must say.
    1. DimerVladimer
      DimerVladimer 9 June 2016 15: 44
      +3
      In the scientific community, it is not enough to say “I swear by my mother”.
      And to call the article material - based on information from the forum - it's like OBS (one grandmother said).
      In any society of history buffs, proof of the origin of numbers is required.
      For me this "material" - without links to serious sources (and these are not reprints from the Internet or forums) - has no value.
  44. The comment was deleted.
  45. arlekin
    arlekin 8 June 2016 00: 23
    +4
    Articles have already appeared that the military casualties of the USSR are less than those of Germany. Now it turns out that fewer aircraft have been lost than any other WWII participant. What's next? It turns out that in other types of troops, in artillery, armored vehicles "losses are not so high" (c)? Did the USSR take part in the war in general, or did it somehow hook it?
    Yes, in Russia it is rare in which family there is no one who died in that war, from my father's side out of several people who went to the front, no one returned. I read the memoirs of veterans, including from the series "I fought ..." by Isaev, and I do not believe in "little blood, mainly on foreign territory." It was a terrible war for us, they paid a terrible price for the victory, demography still reverberates.
    1. strannik-3
      strannik-3 8 June 2016 09: 33
      -1
      Do you have other data or you do not agree with the statistics provided in the article, only dissatisfaction is visible from your post. Share specifics, otherwise why write.
    2. strannik-3
      strannik-3 8 June 2016 09: 33
      0
      Do you have other data or you do not agree with the statistics provided in the article, only dissatisfaction is visible from your post. Share specifics, otherwise why write.
  46. Idiot
    Idiot 8 June 2016 00: 47
    +3
    For the period from 22.06.1941. on 10.05.1945/106/400 The USSR Air Force was lost: 46 100/88 300 (combat losses in brackets) aircraft. Of these: combat aircraft - 43 100/18 100, training, transport and others - 3 000/138 500. During the specified period of time, the Air Force received - 170 aircraft, resource - 600 aircraft (with available on 22.06.1941. ). The percentage of losses during the war is 27% of the resource. Air Force personnel losses: 39 people, including the command personnel - 100 people. The figures are somewhat inaccurate, since, on the basis of the order of the NCO from 35/919/22.12.1940. № 0362 "On changing the order of service by the junior and middle commanding staff of the Red Army Air Force", part of the personnel was graduated from the schools as sergeants (until 1943). I found a link about the irrecoverable losses of servicemen who did not have officer ranks, but held officer positions - 122 people (given that such statistics were kept, I admit that the dead servicemen who were in officer posts, but did not have officer ranks, especially those who graduated from military schools , nevertheless, were taken into account in the losses as officers. The above figure - 905 122 people, I think, refers to other branches of the military, where promising privates and non-commissioned officers were appointed to command positions. Accordingly, flight personnel - sergeants, 905 3 people died). In all types of troops, during the whole war, 181 officers were killed. Based on the fact that the greatest losses of the Air Force fell on 1. - 023 people (088% of the number of combat crews of the active army), and in 1943. - 8 people (255%, respectively. I did not find any information for other years), I think the number of irrecoverable losses of the Air Force in 39,2 people is close to real (approximately 1942 people on average per year - 6-178 combat losses, about 24 will be non-combat losses). In general, with combat losses of 39 vehicles (it was then that the crews were most likely to die), the losses of flight personnel of 100 people are convincing. I don't know anything about the German losses - the devil will break his leg there. Half of their pilots are listed as dead in the West, while they are buried in the East. All their memoirists are godlessly lying. If you want the truth - read V. Dymich "Merry hunting in the east of Europe". Or someone else. Don't read Müller Hildenbrandt. Especially before bed ...
    1. DimerVladimer
      DimerVladimer 9 June 2016 14: 21
      +2
      Quote: pft, fkb
      All their memoirists are godlessly lying. If you want the truth - read V. Dymich "Merry hunting in the east of Europe"


      Dymych points out the shot down German pilots, each of which has a lot of shot down - that is, the Germans fought, as it were, to put it mildly - nevertheless efficiently.
      Before being shot down - everyone had dozens of shot down Soviet planes (if you do not go into the statistics of German calculations).
    2. Awaz
      Awaz 9 June 2016 18: 00
      0
      There is another reliable fact - this is Normandy-Neman. For the entire time they participated in the hostilities on the Soviet front, they lost about 40 people (I can be wrong, I write from memory) Even if we consider that they fought from the end of 42, even with 43 they still had a slightly different attitude towards them, but having made some amendments, one can roughly calculate the losses of similar units of the Red Army.
      1. Bakht
        Bakht 9 June 2016 18: 26
        +1
        Have you had pilots in your regiment who have flown since 1941?
        Our regiment began to fight in 1941 on the Kalinin Front on the R-5 and almost completely died. One or two people remained, and they left; someone to the academy, someone else somewhere. When I came to the regiment, there were no pilots who would have fought since 1941. After the reformation of the 621st, the ShAP fought near Stalingrad. These pilots, too, almost all died, and some - when I was already flying. By 1945, the regiment was approached by the personnel participating in Operation Bagration.
  47. a housewife
    a housewife 8 June 2016 00: 58
    0
    Quote: your1970

    your1970
    (1)

    Today, 00: 14

    ↑ ↓ New


    “Everything is simple here. The Germans, unlike ours, did not fly in bad weather.” - Now you said a terrible thing for all rezunists, SCARY, no, not so SCARY !!!! At the moment, the total number of pilots is LESS than the number of pilots who can do it. fly in SMU (adverse weather conditions). Moreover, for example, in the 90s, the ratio of helicopter pilots was about 1 (not) to 2 (with

    Like this? Is the total quantity less than a part?
  48. a housewife
    a housewife 8 June 2016 01: 18
    +3
    I do not know what statistics anyone has, I know one thing - our "untrained, poorly equipped army with unusable weapons and stupid command" beat everyone. It is a fact.
    1. Voodoo
      Voodoo 8 June 2016 09: 33
      +3
      ... unfortunately a HUGE price ((
  49. Idiot
    Idiot 8 June 2016 01: 45
    +1
    It should be understood that a combat pilot has been preparing for years, his loss is more painful for the Air Force than the loss of a car, because machines in the distant distant workmen tirelessly work, - just give them a resource. In addition, our products, as a rule, were rougher, simpler, cheaper than German ones, and required fewer man-hours for their production. Yes, the resource of the motors was small, they could collapse in the air from overloads. But we did more of them, even more than we lost. And we trained more pilots in number, our pilots sat in spare parts for months - they waited for cars. And in spare parts not only ate vodka, they also studied there. Experienced fighters, after being shot down and wounded, had the opportunity to heal and hone their skills. After all, at the front there were plenty of cars (thanks to a separate allies, primarily for aluminum) and pilots. And after 1943. The flyers who had not yet fought, who had several thousand flight hours each, rolled from the inner districts to the front for glory and orders. And after all, many of them were really afraid that not a single Hans would be shot down during the war, since there would not be enough for everyone. Read Pokryshkin. In 1942, when the Germans moved to the Caucasus, his regiment had time to rest and bring up the young. And the Germans could not afford this. As they began to plow like Karla's dads on June 22, they did not climb out of the cabins throughout the war. Because they died more often than they had time to learn something. Those who are now called aces are epistolary bullshit. Squadron "Green Hertz" (green heart) ours called "green ass". They didn't respect them at all. Hartmanov was invented by Goebbels. It's like the Yankees' captain America - came, defeated everyone. Woe to the country that needs heroes! .. The Luftwaffe of the 1944-1945 model. - these are juvenile suicide bombers of the take-off-landing level. They were afraid of the fog, not like "Ivanov". Conclusion - the combat losses of the USSR Air Force, like the combat losses of the Luftwaffe, given above are real, I personally have no doubts ... [/ quote]
    1. complete zero
      complete zero 9 June 2016 08: 39
      +1
      No one had invented Hartman ... and despite the postscript (well, God attributed 200 to him) ... the residual result is still impressive ... and this suggests that pilot Eric was, as they say from God ... another thing is that to compare the pilot level only by the number of shot down WRONG
    2. DimerVladimer
      DimerVladimer 9 June 2016 15: 31
      +2
      [quote = pft, fkb] Those who are now called aces are epistolary bullshit. Squadron "Green Hertz" (green heart) ours called "green ass". Not respected at all. Hartmanov was invented by Goebbels. It's like the Yankees' captain America - came, defeated everyone. Woe to the country that needs heroes! .. The Luftwaffe of the 1944-1945 model. - these are juvenile suicide bombers of the take-off-landing level. They were afraid of the fog, not like "Ivanov". Conclusion - the combat losses of the USSR Air Force, like the combat losses of the Luftwaffe, given above are real, I personally have no doubts ... [/ quote] [/ quote]

      You're dramatizing.
      Asa German - were really productive. - Even if we halve their victories due to exaggerated statistics of accounting for victories, they are still very large.

      Do not forget that our fighter regiments suffered heavy losses of young pilots - mainly in the first battles. The average pilot who survived 10 battles could already navigate in the air and had a chance to survive.
      1. complete zero
        complete zero 9 June 2016 15: 42
        -1
        then you need to keep separate statistics for each type of aircraft ... if the memory serves for 50 sorties, the pilot of the Sturmovik was assigned a hero of the Soviet Union ... but here (as a percentage of ALL heroes attack aircraft there were NOT MUCH) 5-10 sorties
    3. Artem Popov
      Artem Popov 12 October 2018 16: 29
      0
      "And in spare parts they ate not only vodka, they also studied there"
      but the fact of the matter is that they did not study. During the war, there were much more pilots in training than in the active aviation, the problem was in the industry - it could not provide engines, so it saved the motor resources for battle, and in training the pilots studied in theory and, at best, on old decommissioned aircraft. "Studied" for YEARS, read memoirs - who spent as long as they studied, bombarding with reports about the transfer to the front. The same Kozhedub continuously asked for a combat unit, from the very beginning of the war, and got there only in March 1943! And this is not an ordinary pilot, but an instructor, head and shoulders above other pilots. And still, in the very first battle, he was confused and was shot down right over the airfield.
  50. Zloy ork
    Zloy ork 8 June 2016 07: 30
    0
    Thank you to the author! I would also tell you about the strictness of accounting for downed enemy aircraft in the USSR, the prohibitions on "free hunting" and, on the contrary, how the Nazis counted fire engines instead of downed aircraft, so the article would be six on a five-point scale.