Rifle "Exhaust": silent, large-caliber, our

The answer to this question is very difficult: large-caliber rifles create a powerful flash and roar like artillery weapon, and silent samples do not have a large firing distance. You have to choose which is more important: stealth or power.

The solution of the sniper dilemma came from the city, traditionally considered in Russia as the forge of all weapon innovations, - Tula. Gunmen TsKIB SOO (Central Design Research Bureau of sports and hunting weapons - branch of Instrument Design Bureau) developed a unique sniper rifle "Exhaust" - large-caliber and at the same time silent.

In fact, Exhaust is the name of the program for developing the weapon complex: a rifle and ammunition. The official abbreviation is a large-caliber sniper rifle - VKS, or CB-1367. The order for development came from the Center of Special Purpose of the Federal Security Service of Russia: the special forces wanted to get a weapon that could secretly destroy a target protected by armor at a great distance.

An order for weapons with unusual properties was received from the Special Purpose Center of the Federal Security Service of Russia
The main requirement of the special forces was the ability to secretly destroy the target, located at a sufficiently large distance and protected by armor or some kind of shelter. It turned out to be impossible to solve the task with the use of existing models of weapons or ammunition, therefore Tula gunsmiths began to create a whole complex - a large-caliber rifle plus ammunition.

Slow and inevitable

The creation of the "Exhaust" complex began with the development of ammunition. Since it was supposed to work at long distances, the 12,7 mm caliber was taken as a basis. In Russia, the 1930 x 12,7 cartridge, developed back in 108, was traditionally used to defeat remote targets, used in large-caliber sniper rifles, easel and aviation machine guns. Such ammunition is capable of hitting targets at a distance of more than 1 km and piercing armor steel sheets with a thickness of more than 10 mm.

Silver bullet with unusual outlines
has a steel core inside and weighs 79 g. With 100 m such a projectile will pierce through almost any body armor.

However, for the "Exhaust" complex, the old cartridge turned out to be too long. Tula gunsmiths decided to create a new ammunition caliber 12,7 x 54. The deadly product received a general index of SC-130 and several different types of bullets. Moreover, even the lightest of these bullets was much heavier than all previously created for this caliber. The version with the index of the PT weighs 59 g, and the heaviest UPU does 79 at all - a real heavyweight.
The weight of the projectile is not only the increased energy of the ammunition, which allows it to fly farther and hit harder, but also the reduced speed of escape from the barrel. The fact is that reducing the speed of a bullet to subsonic indicators (usually less than 300 m / s) is one of the most common ways to make a shot quieter: objects moving faster than the speed of sound are accompanied by a shock wave that is perceived subjectively by observers as a loud bang. Thus, the Tula gunsmiths could “get what cannot be” - they made a powerful cartridge, which at the same time does not rumble like a gun.

Tula gunsmiths abandoned the traditional "bolted" bolt in favor of the longitudinal-sliding
The reloading handle moves in a straight line, which is very convenient (in the case of a bolt lock, you would have to turn the handle, pull it back, and then return it to its place in the reverse order). The lever of preliminary moving is built in the handle. To pull back the bolt, the shooter must squeeze the “halves” of the handle together, thereby unlocking the bolt itself and hooking the cartridge case to the rim to remove it from the receiver.

True, you have to pay for everything: compared to the standard 12,7 cartridge, which is capable of hitting targets at distances of 1500-2000 m, the new ammunition demonstrates an aimed range of 600-800 m. But Tula didn’t have the task to create another ultra-long anti-material rifle, such as Russian OSV-96 or American Barret M82. It was necessary not only powerful and accurate, but also silent weapons.

All cartridges SC-130 can be divided into two types - increased accuracy and increased penetration. The bullet of the cartridge of increased penetration ability has a steel core inside and differs in a rather bizarre form, resembling a multi-stage rocket. Such a “rocket” at distances up to 200 m is able to perforate a sheet of armor steel with a thickness of 16 mm, and with 100 m it will pierce almost any existing body armor.

In addition to the armor plates, such a cartridge easily breaks through a wooden wall or brickwork up to 10 thickness. At the same time, there is no doubt that wherever the bullet of the SC-130 cartridge gets, its victim is almost doomed: a dynamic blow to any part of the body in such a caliber is sure death, and in the case of contact with a limb, it is guaranteed to be torn apart and severe blood loss. By the way, the store "exhaust" fits five such deadly ammo.

To install a telescopic sight, it is not necessary to remove the front sight and the rear sight, you just need to fold them
In case of problems with optics, the mechanical sight is always at the ready.

Size matters

Having decided on the ammunition, the designers developed a “delivery tool” for it. First of all, it was necessary to make the weapon silent. If subsonic speed contributes to this in ammunition, then a silent shooting device (PBS) is used in the weapon, simpler - a silencer.

To effectively silence the cotton from the shot of such a powerful cartridge, you need a very large muffler. PBS turned out to be frightening: huge, almost half-meter. But the result is amazing: the shot of the “Exhaust” is so quiet that it looks more like a click of an air rifle. According to the subjective opinion of the author of the article, the sound of the shotgun VKS is even quieter than that of its colleagues - the special silent rifles “Vintorez” and VSK-94, and the caliber of these samples is 9 mm against 12,7 mm in Exhaust. In a busy urban environment, such a click will not be heard from a couple of dozen meters.

A fighter can comfortably fire without rifle headphones. The sound of a shot doesn’t hurt the shooter’s ears at all, even if the fire is in a deaf closed bunker, and anyone who has ever shot 12,7 caliber weapons knows: even “in the open air” such a shot can be contused, and in a closed space, it is guaranteed that it hurts hearing organs .

Pre-release lever
protects against spontaneous inertial reloading of the weapon under the action of a powerful recoil pulse when fired.

Having solved the issue of noiselessness, the designers faced a new challenge: a huge silencer promised to significantly increase the size of the rifle. And if at the very least we got used to standard 12,7 caliber models, then this one would surely have stretched about two meters, standing in line with the anti-tank guns of the Second World War. For weapons that are supposed to be used covertly, such dimensions are unacceptable.

To save the cherished centimeters, it was decided to take the bullpup system as a basis - not the most common for sniper weapons, but a fairly common layout scheme. In her store with ammunition is not located in front of the fire control handle, and behind it. At the same time, there is no need for a butt, since its role is played by a receiver biased back with a butt pad.

The layout of bullpup can significantly reduce the length of the weapon as a whole, while maintaining the length of the barrel. And after all, the firing distance directly depends on the length of the barrel. As a result, the designers managed to create a large-caliber rifle with a length of just over half a meter and weighing slightly more than 5 kg. With the silent shooting device installed, the length is 1125 mm and the weight is 7 kg.

The design of the weapon, it was decided to use the scheme with manual reloading, which gives a higher accuracy and accuracy of fire compared to automatic samples. The return of such weapons is less, because there is no inertia from the movement of the bolt inside the receiver. Finally, this design is simpler and easier, which affects the reliability and convenience.

Normally, the CB-1367 is equipped with mechanical sights - the front sight and the whole. An optical sight can be mounted on a rifle, for which Picatinny rail is mounted on top of the receiver on top. So that the fly and the rear sight did not overlap the optics, they were made folding. This is also useful because if the sight is suddenly damaged, the shooter can always pick up the mechanical sights and use them.

Perspective Shot

The development of VKS “Exhaust” was begun in 2002 year. The neck of secrecy from the new complex was removed relatively recently, so for a long time nothing was known about its existence. Today, the rifle is used in several special units of various law enforcement agencies of the Russian Federation.

Due to the specificity of the tasks and the high cost of the rifle, it was made by a very small batch. According to information in the media, in Tula, on the basis of this product and its ammunition, another type of weapon is being developed - the ASH-12 assault rifle. However, the representatives of the arms enterprise themselves do not confirm this information.

Comments

[Razvedka_Boem]

Price is not as important as efficiency. Moreover, this complex is produced only for the needs of special forces, and for craftsmen and weapons should be appropriate.

[Blondy]

Guys, you know, I'm not an expert. And of course the exhaust is good in its niche.
But in the name of the principle "all sorts of mothers are needed, all sorts of mothers are important" I would like to offer you a link to this Lobaev model (link)

http://lobaev.com/notes/tsvl-8-black-ops

Also positioned as a silent uberblyushka - TSVL-8 BLACK-OPS -TSVL-8 Stalingrad

The energy of the cartridge 338 Lapua Magnum does not allow to doubt that a sufficient amount of energy will be delivered to the addressee. This is not a half-pregnant charge on the principle of "just-was-quieter", no. All in an adult way. No compromises: 900 m per second with a bullet of 16, 2 grams, leaving the muzzle with humane 7000J.

And what do competent people think about this?

[edge]

Quote: Blondy

But in the name of the principle "all sorts of mothers are needed, all sorts of mothers are important" I would like to offer you a link to this Lobaev model

and where to shoot from it, only in the tundra. We (in Eurasia) have terrain that is rough, densely built up and overgrown with forests. The time of approach of a bullet will be calculated in a few seconds, the greater the range, the greater the derivation (deflection of the bullet in the direction of rotation) and therefore the probability hit (the conclusion to shoot only at a fixed target) so that live firing at long ranges (from 800 m) is an unlikely enterprise. Et about Lobaev rifles

[alpamys]

Quote: hert

the greater the derivation (deflection of the bullet in the direction of rotation) and therefore the probability of being hit (the conclusion to shoot only at a fixed target) so that live firing at long ranges (from 800 m) is an unlikely enterprise. Et about Lobaev rifles

it means it’s better to train, for example, among the Moraeans, they shoot for tens of kilometers, and there both derivation and humidity and swinging on the waves, both their own and the targets, fall on the same.

[Asadullah]

they shoot tens of kilometers ....

Sorry, what are they shooting at?

[yehat]

there is a whole navigation service with calculators

[Blondy]

I'm not talking about "dusk", but about the supposedly silent tactical "Stalingrad" "Black Ops".
If I don’t confuse anything, there’s a brake like a quasi-silencer. Without a silencer, the effective range is up to 1600 m. And at such distances, in my opinion, in Afghanistan and in Donetsk, they shot someone and something.

[Mahmut]

or brickwork up to 10 cm thick.

This is in what cities they lay brick so.

[Asadullah]

This is in what cities they lay brick so.

At landfills, and even lime with sand. In which case, the brick knocks out. You can say then, a dual-purpose bullet, and breaks through and can kill with a brick, if managed to hide behind the wall. Do not be saved, people, where is the truth ?!

[Tatar-in]

Friends, why kill a target behind a load-bearing wall? For this, cheaper and no less effective devices are intended, of which there are a great many. But to remove the interference through the partition while in the next room or building, this is enough

[uragan114]

Quote: Mahmut

or brickwork up to 10 cm thick.

This is in what cities they lay brick so.

In England

[Bad_gr]

Quote: uragan114

In england laughing

Quite possible. In England, the average annual temperature is higher than in Sochi. There even bamboo grows. Their Gulf Stream is still warming. Here, for how long.

[overb]

Quote: Bad_gr

In England, the average annual temperature is higher than in Sochi.

The average annual temperature in Sochi over the past 10 years is 14,8 degrees.
The average annual temperature in London over the past 10 years is 11,7 degrees.
The average annual temperature in Astrakhan over the past 10 years is 11,5 degrees.

[Bad_gr]

:) I have data from old statistics. When I came across - I was very surprised, since England is much more north.
Here, for example, January is quite comparable with Sochi
[img = left] biblioclub.ru/services/fks.php?fks_action=get_file&fks_flag=2&fks_id=b
se_img_images_02532_428190.jpg [/ img]
PS
I live in Sochi, the village of Dagomys

[Witness 45]

in addition to the tundra, there are still vast plains in the south of Russia, and in mountainous areas the possibility of hitting a target at a distance determined only by the ability of the shooter and the technical capabilities of optics would not hurt.

[PKK]

In Donetsk, shoot at least 5 km. And three as a hello. The exhaust will only lick at such distances.

[Wolka]

dear colleague, this device has an unambiguous application, a really modern battle is fleeting at close range, but there are also special tasks, to get out, say, an artillery fire corrector, here you really need a long aimed and uniquely lethal shot, without having to identify yourself, i.e. quiet...

[goose]

Quote: hert

unlikely venture. Et about Lobaev rifles

There is one more "BUT" on Lobaev rifles it is impossible to carry out full-fledged training, tk. the price tag just rolls over. It is much more effective to train snipers, at least for the SV-98, they are an order of magnitude better technically obtained for the same money and, most importantly, in large quantities, everything is produced in Russia. And the rifle is pretty good on its own.

Specialists who knows how to get 600 meters from this miracle with the ballistics of a pistol?

[sharp-lad]

Dear blonde, you probably lighten your hair several times a day!
(There is such a humorous saying "The blonde thought her hair darkened") I am not a competent person, but relying on ammunition not manufactured in Russia is, in my opinion, not the most practical solution. And so, the Lobaev rifle causes excessive salivation.

[Kozliu]

another "unparalleled"

[Altona]

Quote: Blondy

And what do competent people think about this?

------------------
You are comparing incomparable things. This is 9 mm, a long-range and very overall thing. In addition, it is more suitable for army operations. The article also indicated what was done and why. The appearance of the weapon, its mechanism, its caliber and dimensions are not just looming there.

[Bad_gr]

".... According to information in the media, in Tula, on the basis of this product and ammunition for it, another type of weapon is being developed - the ASh-12 assault machine. However, the representatives of the weapons enterprise themselves do not confirm this information ...."

But at exhibitions this machine appears.
Although personally I can not imagine where such a miracle might be needed.

[cth; fyn]

Well, where to fight with aliens, the demo also says.
Although, to be honest, the truth causes a certain rush, without an exoskeleton you won’t shoot from it, although it’s an automatic machine, and maybe ...

[Asadullah]

Although personally I can not imagine where such a miracle might be needed.

Assault weapons. Although the question is more b / n, pancake ricochets. Indoors, the chance to kill the villain is the same to kill the shooter. Oh, this ricochet, I remember the case when a pistol bullet ricocheted between the thumb and forefinger of an arrow, and they took it out at the end of the forearm.

[BEECH 1972]

Quote: Asadullah

Although the question is more b / n, pancake ricochets. Indoors, the chance to kill the villain is the same to kill the shooter.

[BEECH 1972]

Quote: Asadullah
Although the question is more b / n, pancake ricochets. Indoors, the chance to kill the villain is the same to kill the shooter.
/// Well, in this case there is ammunition with a reduced risk of rebound. Soft shell or semi-shell with a cross-shaped incision, or a shellless shell of the DD type, with deforming belts, but without an expansive cavity. Such bullets are prohibited for use by regular armies, but are permitted and used by police and other law enforcement forces, due to the greatly reduced risk of rebound and a very impressive stopping power. Such a bullet simply sticks into any target, and hitting a similar weighted bullet of 12,7 mm caliber will be equivalent to hitting a good sledgehammer. Even a well-defended adversary will most likely be knocked down and will surely receive shock concussion, combined with injuries of varying severity or even fractures.

[Izotovp]

Dear Blondie drew attention to the .338 caliber, but Lobaev has a more interesting and comparable caliber. This is a .40LW.

[ammunition]

Quote: Blondy

And what do competent people think about this?

A long time ago (more than 30 years ago), the competent developed an ultra-long-range, small-caliber rifle, with a heavy tungsten bullet.
Bullet weight - 32 gr. Caliber - 6,5 mm.
--------------------
1) Bullet of small caliber and heavy weight very slightly loses speed in the air on the first 3 (three) kilometers of flight. So it easily penetrates the side of an armored personnel carrier to a distance of 2000 meters.
2) A large barrel length - 1200 mm .., coupled with a very large initial bullet speed - 1250 m / s, allow you to make flat, ideally - gentle cuts of the barrel. And this gave a very rare accuracy.
3) Heavy and small-caliber bullet does not require wind adjustments under normal conditions. That is - with a wind of not more than 5m / s.
4) An ordinary silencer makes the rifle completely silent, at its most working distances - 2000 m.
------------------
But The project was hacked .. And forgot forever.
You see, it's expensive. In those days .. one shot from such a rifle .. came out at a cost, like a shot from a D-30 howitzer.
---------------
The generals were genuinely indignant .. They said - "Yes, it's better to blow a shell!"

[verboo]

Quote: ammunition

The caliber is 6,5 mm.

That’s the reason for the failure. And the weight, of course, i.e. bullet length.

Quote: ammunition

However, feel the Project hacked off .. And forgot forever.
You see, it's expensive. In those days .. one shot from such a rifle .. came out at a cost, like a shot from a D-30 howitzer.
---------------
The generals were genuinely indignant .. They said - "Yes, it's better to blow a shell!"

And this is a fantasy on a free theme and jokes.

Quote: ammunition

A bullet of small caliber and heavy weight very slightly loses speed in the air in the first 3 (three) kilometers of flight.

No less than 2 times.

Quote: ammunition

So it easily pierces the side of an armored personnel carrier to a distance of 2000 meters

What for? Also not necessarily easy.

[ammunition]

Quote: verboo

That’s the reason for the failure. And the weight, of course, i.e. bullet length.

Quote: verboo

No less than 2 times.

-------------------
You scared me with your great rating. But once I write the answer.

The bullet in the barrel not only accelerates, but also spins in the rifling of the barrel. Spins up with acceleration. That is - the rifling of the trunk crush on the bullet to the very edge of the barrel. Because of this, the bullet flies with precession. The bullet nose is "walking".
So that's it. Caliber 6,5 mm in our "product" does not come from anywhere.
In our product, the full promotion of the bullet occurred on the first 800 millimeters of the barrel.
Fortunately - the length of the barrel allowed. The following 200 mm bore had transition cutting. And the last 200 mm of the barrel, the bullet passed without any rifling pressure.
Of course .. this made the rifling technology very difficult. But! But the bullet flew out strictly stabilized. No precession! No "festivities"!
And so the braking power of the air, turned out to be the same as that of the machine gun 5,45.
But the brake acceleration we had almost 10 (ten) times less than the bullet 5,45 !! F = ma. a = F / m. Bullet weight in 10 times more - braking acceleration in 10 times less.
-------------
Therefore, you are mistaken when you claimed that after the first 3000 meters of flight, our bullet lost half its speed.
Not! At a distance of 3000 meters, the bullet speed was only slightly less than 1000 m / s.
--------------------
Regarding the BTR The bullet not only easily pierced its side, (on the dist. 2000 m), but also no less easily pierced the second side. And flew away .. like Carlson
Excess ... panim .. power. And there's nothing to be done. With bullet energy, as much as in 24 000 j.

[verboo]

Quote: ammunition

You scared me with your great rating.

Does that mean something? Can you tell me what?

But once I write the answer.

Okay, I’ll read it once. And even once I answer. But do not count on more. I am such "experts" as you, as interlocutors are not interested.

Caliber 6,5 mm in our "product" does not come from anywhere.

Where from? Anyhow from there?

In our product, the full promotion of the bullet occurred on the first 800 millimeters of the barrel.
Fortunately - the length of the barrel allowed. The next 200 mm of the barrel had a transition cut. And the last 200 mm of the barrel, the bullet passed without any rifling pressure.
Of course .. this made the rifling technology very difficult. But! But the bullet flew out strictly stabilized. No precession! No "festivities"!

Bububusenki. How verbose you are, and on abstract topics. You do not even understand what I wrote to you. So write everything in a row that somewhere they subtracted once. Imitate competency.

And so the braking power of the air, turned out to be the same as that of the machine gun 5,45.

Sweetheart. It is convenient to tell this DoHtur. Pilyulkin. And any Internet program for uneducated people will show that the ballistic coefficient (remember the correct term) of such a bullet will be significantly larger than that of a 5,45 mm Soviet bullet.

But we had almost 10 (ten) times less braking acceleration than the 5,45 bullet !! F = ma. a = F / m. Bullet weight is 10 times more - braking acceleration is 10 times less.

In short, you have trouble with ballistic calculators. Download yourself something from the Internet, there are a million of them, from the simplest to the most serious, and use your health.
PS. But "brake acceleration" is a masterpiece. I applaud while standing.

Quote: ammunition

Therefore, you are mistaken when you claimed that after the first 3000 meters of flight, our bullet lost half its speed.
Not! At a distance of 3000 meters, the bullet speed was only slightly less than 1000 m / s.

Learn materiel, young man. You need.

With bullet energy as much as 24 joules.

And here you have a small puncture. 1250 * 1250 * 32/2/1000 = 25000 J.

Quote: ammunition

The bullet not only easily pierced its side, (on the dist. 2000 m), but also no less easily pierced the second side. And flew away .. like Carlson

It is possible. In theory. When attacking strictly normal or so. But in practice, this is your speculation. Because such a bullet just ... breaks. Trying to normalize (you know what it is?) On the armor. And just the same, she will flash through a soldier. Which, cursing viciously, will be tied up with an indpack and will break the arrow with the head of a sapper blade. That's the whole "efficiency".
PS. Rifles with a caliber of 12,7 mm, or at least a minimum of 7,62 mm, do it for a reason. Keep this in mind.
And why, I won’t tell you. I have a small rating.

[goose]

Quote: verboo

PS. But "brake acceleration" is a masterpiece. I applaud while standing.

Incidentally, a perfectly normal statement in physics. In this case, deceleration meant the direction of the acceleration vector.

Quote: verboo

the ballistic coefficient (remember the correct term) of such a bullet will be significantly larger than that of a 5,45 mm Soviet bullet.

And why more, is He known for this bullet? Maybe it is better than 5,45 and, accordingly, it really slows down less (both bullets without precession). There is also a not quite correct ballistic comparison, because 5,45 is fired from an assault rifle with an intermediate cartridge, which has an initial speed of about 900 m / s. In the given rifle, as it was written, it is significantly more than 1000 m / s. Roughly estimating, in aerodynamics the air resistance increases in proportion to the square of the speed. The air resistance for this high-speed bullet will be at least 20% greater than for the AK-74 ammunition. And yes, therefore, in% of the initial impulse, it is possible that this bullet will lose more than the AK-74, even if they have the same ballistic coefficient. But if you compare the bullets with the same energy and 2 times different masses, then according to the laws of conservation of energy, the speed of a heavy bullet will be 0,7 of the standard. That will give a 2-fold reduction in aerodynamic drag. Well, from above, polish the final value with a ballistic coefficient, if it differs.

[verboo]

Quote: goose

Incidentally, a perfectly normal statement in physics.

Try to find similar examples yet.

Quote: goose

And yes, therefore, in% of the initial impulse, it is possible that this bullet will lose more than the AK-74, even if they have the same ballistic coefficient.

Guessing and wondering is not necessary. I wrote there which programs you need to download from an Internet. Or even they are online. And all at once will fall into place.

[goose]

Quote: ammunition

With bullet energy as much as 24 joules

It’s the same as from the DShK in the emphasis attach and press. Tin.

[verboo]

Quote: goose

This is the same as from the DShK in the emphasis to attach and click

The DShK DE 17040 J.
But if you "put and click", the effect will be completely different. The DShK is noticeably larger.

[Maxim73]

Did you shoot from a bow or grenade launcher? A long projectile is very much affected by the influence of a crosswind - it unfolds in the wind. The speed of the projectile does not matter.

[ammunition]

Quote: Maxim73

Did you shoot from a bow or grenade launcher? A long projectile is very much affected by the influence of a crosswind - it unfolds in the wind. The speed of the projectile does not matter.

Dear Maxim.
A bullet and feathered shells (grenades, bow arrows) are very different things.
1) No ballistic projectile deflects toward the wind.
2) Only a rocket-propelled grenade "goes" to the wind, because it is a rocket-propelled grenade.
But what does the bullet have to do with it?
Heavy tungsten bullet - really insensitive to wind!
This fluff and feathers are very sensitive. Relatively lightweight steel core bullets
- require some correction for the wind .. at large distances. A tungsten bullet requires correction only with a crosswind of more than 5m \ s.
------------------
Now a few words about a certain verboo.

And what just did not write!
"coefficients", .. normalized ..
Is a bullet with gyroscopic power normalized? On xnumx mm iron?
-----------
Sad When will this damned USE be canceled?

[verboo]

Quote: ammunition

Is a bullet with gyroscopic power normalized? On xnumx mm iron?

Yes, here are a few more recommended terms for studying and topics:
1. "Biting a shell (bullet) on the armor." Just in case, I'll clarify, this is not the kind of bite that happens after a stopar.
2. "Bullet (projectile) transverse load".
3. "Why is the thickness of the armor often considered in the calibers of the penetrating projectile (bullet)."
Well, I think for starters you have enough new information.

Quote: ammunition

Sad When will this damned USE be canceled?

Can't hand it over? My condolences to you.
Here is a typical case of chasing two birds with one stone, and you cannot pass the exam, and in the shooter (I'm afraid to even use special terms like "external ballistics" and "armor penetration"), no boom-boom.

[Maxim73]

I agree - somehow I went crazy :)

[goose]

Quote: Maxim73

The speed of the projectile does not matter.

It does not matter for the force, it does matter how long it takes and directly determines the displacement, along with the wind force and the effective lateral area of ​​the projectile.

[Nekarmadlen]

It seems that this is about the SC-154 cartridge, see photo of special cartridges for sniper weapons, in the comment of Alexander -72

[Witness 45]

When shooting at such distances, at 2000 meters, corrections must be made for any wind, even less than 5 meters per second. And I can’t believe that a 6,5 mm bullet shot is comparable in value to a gun shot, even if it is made of gold, there were most likely some other reasons for not adopting this system.

[goose]

Quote: Svidetel 45

And I can’t believe that a 6,5 mm bullet shot is comparable in value to a gun shot, even if it is made of gold

The unique technology is not massive, it automatically gives an extra charge at times and because of scale.
Technical gold is actually worth little, and tungsten is a lot.
Tungsten metalworking and a melting point of 3000 degrees mean completely different equipment and a short resource.

[Stas157]

Quote: goose

Technical gold is actually worth little, and tungsten is a lot.

Depleted uranium, which is used by Americans in 30 mm aircraft guns, generally costs nothing. They sold it to us all at a dollar per kg. True, he is a little fonit, but this does not stop the Americans.

[goose]

Quote: ammunition

You see, it's expensive.

So let them do it from uranium. It has physical and mechanical properties, like ordinary steel, it is much easier to process it with tungsten, and the bullet will turn out a little harder.

[Viktor77]

In fact, a bullet made of tungsten will be a little heavier with an equal volume.

[brn521]

Quote: ammunition

Bullet weight - 32 gr. Caliber - 6,5 mm.

Quote: ammunition

coupled with a very large initial velocity of the bullet - 1250 m \ s

0,032 * 1250 * 1250/2 = 25000J. The PTRD and KPV have about 30000J. Those. massive and dimensional unit, comparable with PTRD. This is an anti-tank gun with a calculation of 2 people.

Quote: ammunition

one shot from such a rifle .. came out at a cost like a shot from a D-30 howitzer

1. The high initial velocity of the bullet implies accelerated barrel wear - powder gases quickly destroy rifling. Especially in the initial section.
2. A soft shell or leading fields under such a load will deform and reduce accuracy. And without them, a solid bullet will again quickly wear out the barrel.
3. At the same time, high-precision shooting at long distances requires a very high-quality barrel that does not accept wear in principle. Because of this, current models, on the contrary, have an increased caliber.
Conclusion. The trunks will have to be changed often, due to which the high cost of a shot.
Well, why do we need it? Domestic flimsy APCs from a long distance to board a hole?

Quote: ammunition

A bullet of small caliber and heavy weight very slightly loses speed in the air in the first 3 (three) kilometers of flight.

Slightly - how much? Air resistance increases in proportion to the square of the speed. 7 times more stored energy. 3 times more air resistance - 3 times faster this energy is consumed.

Quote: ammunition

However feel project hacked off .. And forgot forever

For such tasks, they usually use ATGMs. Expensive, but reliable and efficient. The calculation is also 2 people.

Quote: ammunition

In our product, the full promotion of the bullet occurred on the first 800 millimeters of the barrel.
Fortunately - the length of the barrel allowed. The next 200 mm of the barrel had a transition cut. And the last 200 mm of the barrel, the bullet passed without any rifling pressure.

It is completely incomprehensible why the last 200 mm smooth trunk. Without obturation, powder gases will begin to create all kinds of disgraces, knocking a bullet from the direction.

[ammunition]

Quote: brn521

It is completely incomprehensible why the last 200 mm smooth trunk. Without obturation, powder gases will begin to create all kinds of disgraces, knocking a bullet from the direction.

In no case!
I never said that there were no rifling! There are grooves all over the trunk!
But!
On the last 200 millimeters, the grooves are made in such a way that they (grooves) no longer unwind the bullet. Do not give the pool any twisting acceleration. Not positive. No negative.
-------------
I’ll try to explain again why this was done.
If you spin an ordinary children's Yula, spin it strongly .. but evenly. Then it will rotate smoothly. Like a gyroscope. But .. If you lightly hit such a whirligig on the handle, then it will "play" further. Will spin with precession. Yula's handle will describe circles.
So the bullets, in all rifled guns, receive a small push from the rifling along the shank of the bullet when the bullet leaves the barrel.
So here. In order to get rid of this .. the last push on the tail of the bullet, and had (in the last section) to make rifling in the form of a stretching spiral. To rifling NO Do not press on the bullet in the direction of all tangents to the circumference of the bullet. That is - they did not unwind the bullet in the last section.
------------
Regarding barrel wear .. With a monolithic tungsten pool.
Copper is too hard. Belts (like shells) had a bad effect on bullet stabilization. The way out is a silver bullet coating. 0,25 mm thick.

[verboo]

Quote: ammunition

On the last 200 millimeters, the grooves are made in such a way that they (grooves) no longer unwind the bullet. Do not give the pool any twisting acceleration. Not positive. No negative.

Quote: ammunition

In order to get rid of this .. the last push on the tail of the bullet, and had (in the last section) to make rifling in the form of a stretching spiral. So that the grooves did not press on the bullet in the direction of all tangents to the circumference of the bullet. That is - they did not unwind the bullet in the last section.

I have seen many different dreamers in my life. But you are special. Not only did you (you personally) come up with some supposedly forgotten rifle (obviously of your "design"), but also tell us tales about its supposedly device. I just have a goiter in a goiter from your ignorance in the field of internal ballistics. Starting from the "revelation" that "the bullet receives a push", although the bullet does not receive any push, the pressure grows evenly, although at first it is like an avalanche. And ending with the opus that "the last 200 mm bullet does not accelerate and does not slow down." And what will keep the speed of her movement, the holy spirit? Have you ever heard about the force of friction? This force must be overcome at the expense of something, and it can be overcome only due to the pressure of the powder gases. Even without accelerating. Therefore, your bullet will receive your invented "push" in any way.
Anyway, can you imagine a bullet caliber 6,5-mm and weight 32 g? This is not a bullet, this is a mini arrow. And to disperse such a mini-arrow to 1250 m / s, you need a lot of gunpowder. Which will allocate a lot of gas and create its wild pressure. And in order to relieve the pressure of this gas to the expansion speed of 1250 m / s, it’s not enough that 1000 (800 + 200) mm is not enough, but at times more (too lazy to consider, and it is not easy to take it).
In a word, stop powdering people's brains. Especially with his illiterate research in the field of internal ballistics. By God, there is no power to read.

[Stas157]

Quote: verboo

Anyway, can you imagine a bullet with a caliber of 6,5 mm and a weight of 32 g? This is not a bullet, this is a mini arrow.

I can, if you take into account that the bullet will be of metal 3 times heavier than usual. A mini-arrow is already your invention!

[overb]

Quote: Stas157

I can, if you take into account that the bullet will be of metal 3 times heavier than usual. A mini-arrow is already your invention!

I completely agree with you. If you call me metal, 3 times heavier than lead.
On Earth, this is not, will you mine in space? Even platinum is less than 2 times heavier than lead. And do not forget the soft shell, in any case, it will weigh about the same.
So, you are the inventor. Yes, and with chemistry you do not really.

[yehat]

about fiction you would not be in a hurry
If you learned the periodic table, was life successful?
There are heavier isotopes of known elements.
I understand that it’s expensive and rare, but you can find 3 times heavier lead.
when you argue, do not leave the truth

[overb]

Quote: yehat

I understand that it’s expensive and rare, but you can find 3 times heavier lead.

What for? Why for bullets to find something expensive and rare? Yes, and just expensive and rare will not work, you need super expensive and super rare. If it still exists on this planet in principle.

Quote: yehat

when you argue, do not leave the truth

Who are you writing to?

[Viktor77]

A bullet of tungsten with a caliber of 6.5 mm will be about 50 mm long.

[brn521]

Quote: ammunition

If you lightly hit such a whirligig on the handle, then it will "play" further. Will spin with precession.

Precession is a non-inertial motion. When the external influence is removed, the precession stops. In this case, the whirligig must be released into free fall, depriving the support reaction force. And she must immediately stop precessing. This is the basis of the principle due to which bullets and projectiles turn their nose to the trajectory. For this, they are under-twisted so that they can turn their nose to the trajectory due to a small but sufficient precession when the oncoming air flow vector changes. As soon as the bullet during precession crosses the nose with the trajectory, the overturning moment disappears, the precession stops. And it seems that this is why the distance becomes so important, at which the speed of the bullet falls below the sound one. Air resistance is sharply reduced, the force of which can no longer cope with the creation of sufficient precession and thus turning the bullet's nose towards the trajectory. In this case, the trajectory in this section is already steep, the bullet eventually begins to fly sideways. By the way, the subject, i.e. "Exhaust", there shouldn't be such a problem, because of the subsonic initial speed. The bullet will not fly sideways in the far section even if the barrel is raised at 30 degrees to the horizon, which is inaccessible for normal rifles.
Based on the foregoing, I can assume that we are talking about precession in the initial part of the trajectory, when the bullet overtakes its powder gases asymmetrically flow around it. Due to the fact that it was turned on a low-quality cut of the trunk. But it is believed that there is no reason to fence the garden with a change in the pitch of the rifling, it is enough to make the cut as perfectly perfectly as possible so that the rifling releases the bullet at the same time and symmetrically. The tip itself is also done in different ways - it is cut flat, made cones or steps (a chamfer to cover this area about debris and damage) - there is not much difference. The main thing is to maintain symmetry. Yes, in the benchrest they also experiment with changing the cutting step, but there it seems like the opposite, at the beginning they take a long step, then shorten it. Say, from 15 inches to 14. To the bullet at the initial stage spun evenly, without a sharp blow. Again, according to 2008, the difference is vanishingly small. There are examples of trunks that, on the contrary, end in parallel rifling, while leading in the benchrest? I don’t know such people. On the contrary, there is a suspicion that attempts to make uneven cuts increase the chance of spoiling the workpiece when cutting - the homogeneity of the material is very important. However, I am not a specialist and not a fan.
But in the light of existing knowledge, the design you described looks somewhat strange and excessively complicated and expensive.

[brn521]

Quote: brn521

There are examples of trunks that, on the contrary, end in parallel rifling

Misspelled. Not parallel, but with a calculated step consistent with the steady speed of the bullet. However, there is a suspicion that it will be equal to or close to the pitch of the main rifling. Nevertheless, the rotation speed seems to be calculated as a result based on the pitch of the rifling and the initial speed. I think that’s why the bench design did not even consider such a design. Everything is different there, the same weight of gunpowder, bullets. For a specific barrel and for a specific shot. Therefore, it is impossible to guess how the bullet will rotate in the final section of the barrel and fit the rifling under it. Thus, I repeat, there are factors affecting the accuracy of a shot much stronger. And they are struggling with the aforementioned problem due to the quality of muzzle cutting.

[ammunition]

Quote: brn521

Precession is a non-inertial movement. When the external influence is removed, the precession stops. In this case, the yule must be released into free fall, depriving the reaction forces of support. And she immediately must stop precessing.

Here you are mistaken. Any moment of motion has inertia. If you let Yula go into free fall, then not only the yula handle, but also the lower tip, devoid of fixation on the support, will begin to describe the circles. Only circles of a smaller radius. This is easy for you to verify by experiment. Unwind and toss. The precession will remain.

Quote: brn521

The principle is based on this, thanks to which bullets and shells are turned with their nose to the trajectory. For the sake of this, they are not twisted so that they can turn their nose to the trajectory due to the small but sufficient precession when the vector of the incoming air flow changes.

What you mentioned here, in our case negligible little, vanishingly little. This is generally "from another opera".

Quote: brn521

By the way, the subject, i.e. "Exhaust", there shouldn't be such a problem, because of the subsonic initial speed.

I think the Exhaust rifle is very good at shooting at 150 - 300 meters. For example, during police operations in the city. And her bullet is very lethal.
---------
I mentioned .. about a forgotten idea Army super long-range rifle. Which has the most working distances - 2000 meters. Which has such a high accuracy of the battle that targeted fire can be fired up to a distance of 3000 m (three kilometers).
I'm not going to insist that the Army needs such a rifle.

Quote: brn521

But it is believed that there is no reason to fence the garden with a change in the pitch of the rifling, it is enough to make the cut as perfectly perfectly as possible so that the rifling releases the bullet at the same time and symmetrically.

Perfect symmetry is impossible to achieve. And most importantly - this does not eliminate the elastic twisting of the bullet itself. And for the occurrence physical precession does not need much.
And when the pitch of the rifling coincides with the speed of rotation of the bullet, then the problem is removed in principle.

Quote: brn521

but there it seems like the other way around, at the beginning they take a long step, then they shorten it.

Well, it's simple. They achieve uniform acceleration of the promotion of the bullet. Where (a) = const ? meaning spin acceleration.
It’s clear here. In the beginning, the powder gases press more strongly than when the bullet is at the exit of the barrel. So at the beginning they make more gentle cuts so that the promotion is uniform.
Also .. of course - a way. But our method is more effective ,
,

[brn521]

Quote: ammunition

I am a physicist .. and a mathematician

Then about the precession you have a somewhat strange idea. Precession is the rotation of the axis of rotation under the action of an external force. The cessation of an external force automatically means the cessation of
precession. According to the physical meaning, formulas and experiments.
For example, a video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vINM7GooEVc
We hang the load on the edge of the gyroscope mounting rim - its axis rotates. We remove the load - the axis immediately stops in a new position.

Quote: ammunition

If you let Yula go into free fall, then not only the yula handle, but also the lower tip, devoid of fixation on the support, will begin to describe the circles. Only circles of a smaller radius. This is easy for you to verify by experiment.

As an illustration, again, a video from YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80fNo_3-5ws Zero gravity gyroscope. The "breathing" top precesses under the action of gravity, which creates a moment about the pivot point. We remove the support (the resulting weightlessness) - the moment of force immediately disappears, the precession immediately stops. In the case of a bullet, our precession will be caused by the fact that the point of application of air resistance will be located away from the center of gravity - a shoulder of nonzero dimensions is formed and, accordingly, a moment of air resistance occurs, which tends to turn the bullet. If the speed of rotation of the bullet is selected in the required (rather wide) range, then the bullet will follow the trajectory with its nose.

Quote: ammunition

What you have mentioned here is negligible in our case. Vanishingly small.

This is just an illustration that the atmosphere influences the orientation of a normal bullet much more than theoretical irregularities on the cut of a well-made barrel. Including long range heavy sniper bullets. Suppose the aforementioned rifle fired with completely natural "nails", then there perhaps and the truth could get out the jamb with an excessive influence of the muzzle finish. Long, which means stabilization is in any way not at height, plus a large surface of the lateral projection. Plus a seriously enhanced powder charge with a large volume of gases. And as a result, those factors that are not taken into account in normal shooting practice, this bullet almost tumbles. In the absence of discernible barrel defects, a normal bullet will practically not go astray. A "nail" with the same defects will first twist a couple of degrees, and then displace it with a flow of powder gases in an indefinite direction. Ordinary bullets, even long ones, do not seem to care about this effect - on a sunny day it will fly over a puddle or asphalt road - and it will deviate more. This is all speculation, of course.

Quote: ammunition

I think the Exhaust rifle is very good at shooting at 150 - 300 meters.

I think in calm weather it is quite possible to shoot at landmarks and at a greater distance, including the indicated 800 meters. The only question is accuracy. Well, yes, I almost forgot. with a steep path over a long distance, vertical aiming will become very critical. A microscopic error - and the bullet will go much higher or lower. The effect will be manifested much stronger than conventional rifles, which still cannot work normally on this section of the trajectory.

[ammunition]

Quote: brn521

Then about the precession you have a somewhat strange idea. Precession is the rotation of the axis of rotation under the action of an external force. The cessation of an external force automatically means the cessation of
precession. According to the physical meaning, formulas and experiments.
For example, a video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vINM7GooEVc

Thank you for the detailed comment.
I was wrong. He blurted out without thinking. To his shame. Excuse me.
---------
There is of course an external force. Atmosphere presses on a bullet in flight with a force of the order of 1 (one) kilogram. A little less - a little more.
------------
And the rifle ... never was in the metal. Only in calculations. "Flew", "punched" - everything in the calculations .. and for a long time .. 35 years.
Well, who would allow to do such an expensive and complicated thing? From calculations to the finished product - a long and difficult road.
--------------
But the idea itself was to get the range of an artillery shell in a pool, coupled with the advantages of ultra-high speed bullets ... It was very tempting. Was ..
---------
What now - what was .. forgotten and the past overgrown.
----------
Thank you for the answers. I’ll go .. I’ll give you a few pluses. -))

[brn521]

Quote: ammunition

I was wrong. He blurted out without thinking. To his shame. Excuse me.

Yes, everyone is mistaken, do not worry so much. Internet - to relax, learn something new, have fun. If you unnecessarily reflect, this is not rest, not knowledge, but a waste of time. Errors are found even in school and university textbooks.

Quote: ammunition

But the idea itself was to get the range of an artillery shell in a pool, coupled with the advantages of ultra-high speed bullets ... It was very tempting. Was ..

Well, the railgun was never invented. A sniper's dream, in the absence of an effective "beam format" energy weapon. The last thing that came across from forum theories was that they tried to create a plasma channel in advance, so that the bullet could fly easier and something like a stabilization effect was created. I will not say specifically - the sections of physics are unknown to me, but judging by the search engine, the topic has clearly died out, now I have not found anything.

[verboo]

Quote: brn521

For example, a video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vINM7GooEVc

It would be nice for a dude to learn Russian. His "Axes of symmetry" is super.

[ammunition]

Continuation: -

You know. The first time I hear the word is "benchrest". So ... I'm a physicist ... and a mathematician.
And the idea of ​​an ultra-long-range rifle that I mentioned is a very old episode.
Well, there was .. and the buffoon with him.
I was already very tired of some comments, where my own words are specially misinterpreted. And where they pretend that they do not understand simple things. I’m not at your address. Thank you for the substantive questions.

[brn521]

Quote: ammunition

You know. First time I hear the word - "benchrest"

Sports shooting from the machine with a series of shots over short distances. As a result, a very high impact on the result from the internal ballistics. The front line of research on the same trunks. Several companies issuing small batches of specialized trunks of the highest possible quality. And they didn’t seem to see the indicated barrel format, despite the availability of technical capabilities and motivation.

Quote: ammunition

I mentioned .. about the forgotten idea of ​​the Army ultra-long-range rifle.

Benchresters will not forget this, but only if there is a real practical effect.

Quote: ammunition

Perfect symmetry is impossible to achieve.

It is not needed, because to use it you will need the perfect cartridge (for real cartridges the same initial speed walks by itself) and ideal external conditions (even changing the barrel temperature from shot to shot affects the result and is taken into account). Both are unattainable. There are many significant factors that benchrestrers are forced to take into account purely empirically, affecting the results of the competition. For example, cartridges from cartridges that gave a successful series of shots are collected and reused 2-3 more times. And here is just a cut. It would have long been remembered or rediscovered.

[CTABEP]

Can I have any proofs about this wonderful invention? And so far I personally see an unstoppable fantasy flight on a free theme.

[ammunition]

Quote: verboo

Starting from the "revelation" that "the bullet receives a push", although the bullet does not receive any push, the pressure grows evenly, although at first it is like an avalanche. And ending with the opus that "the last 200 mm bullet does not accelerate and does not slow down." And what will keep the speed of her movement, the holy spirit? Have you ever heard of the force of friction? This force must be overcome at the expense of something, and it can be overcome only due to the pressure of the powder gases. Even without accelerating. Therefore, your bullet will receive your invented "push" in any way.
Anyway, can you imagine a bullet caliber 6,5-mm and weight 32 g? This is not a bullet, this is a mini arrow. And to disperse such a mini-arrow to 1250 m / s, you need a lot of gunpowder. Which will allocate a lot of gas and create its wild pressure. And in order to relieve the pressure of this gas to the expansion speed of 1250 m / s, it’s not enough that 1000 (800 + 200) mm is not enough, but at times more (too lazy to consider, and it is not easy to take it).

In rifled weapons (as opposed to smooth-bore), the bullet not only accelerates in the barrel, under the pressure of powder gases.
But! In rifled weapons, the bullet also spins in the barrel. Up to 60 000 - 100 000 revolutions per minute. (Up to one hundred thousand! Karl).
This rotation of the bullet gives FORCE pressure rifling barrel.
----------
I’m talking about the component of the rifling pressure vector that is perpendicular to the axis of the barrel and coincides with the tangent hole of the barrel ..
--------
Well, well .. what a dumb student came across!
------------
But, let's move on ... Since the bullet accelerates (has acceleration) along the entire length of the barrel, so are the rifling PRESS on a bullet throughout the barrel. Press - in the sense of applying force to increase the speed of rotation of the bullet.
Further. When the bullet leaves the barrel, the front of the bullet exits the barrel .. and is relieved of the pressure of the barrel rifling. (especially for you! I repeat for the fourth time, we are talking only about untwisting pressure).
And the shank of the bullet more continues to experience the power of untwisting pressure.
This is the effect I called "the last push" .. It seemed to me that everything is clear - like two and two.
So here. When the whole bullet is already free from rifling, and the shank of the bullet itself is still experiencing untwisting force, this then destabilizes the bullet in flight. The bullet precesses, and sweeps a larger channel in the air than it has its own caliber. And this increases the air resistance for the precessing bullet.
------------
It is from such a bad effect that the cuts (on the last 200 mm) that are arranged in the form of an elongating spiral and which do not affect the bullet are freed .. for the subject of rotation of the bullet.
--------------
Ufff!
-----------
,

[ammunition]

And continued
Regarding speed ..
That's right you noticed. There is a lot of gunpowder. But! Not as much as you might think.
In AK74, a smaller caliber bullet accelerates to 900 m / s in the barrel in 372 mm.
Well, I see, because it is light. But! We have a trunk that is almost three and a half times longer! 1200 mm. And the caliber .. at least a little, but more. As a result, gunpowder requires approximately 3,7 times more than in the 5.45x39 cartridge.

[overb]

Quote: ammunition

We have a trunk that is almost three and a half times longer! 1200 mm.

You still decide. Then you write that the last 200 mm do not accelerate the bullet gases. Then write, 1200 mm. But if you do not disperse, then it is already 1000 mm.

Quote: ammunition

And the caliber .. at least a little, but more.

Those. trunk volume is greater, i.e. gases (and gunpowder) need more.

Quote: ammunition

As a result, gunpowder requires approximately 3,7 times more than in the 5.45x39 cartridge.

I do not want to take this, laziness. And I won’t say it offhand, it’s painful for your fantasy bullet.
But it's not about the volume of gunpowder, but about the pressure. I repeat once again, the final "push" that you are striving for can be avoided. But absolutely not in the way that you write about. If the speed is maintained at the last 200 mm, the expanding powder gases will still affect the bullet.

[brn521]

Quote: ammunition

So here. When the entire bullet is already free from rifling, and the shank of the bullet itself is still experiencing untwisting force, this then destabilizes the bullet in flight.

The untwisting force does not destabilize, because it is applied symmetrically. Another thing is that the errors in the cut for a long bullet will be more critical. But then again, it is not known how much. In benchrest, this moment does not seem to be taken care of at all. Although they could, for example, reduce the depth of cut by grinding the rifling fields by some fractions of a millimeter.

[overb]

Quote: ammunition

But! In rifled weapons, the bullet also spins in the barrel.

You just decided to lay out everything that you know about the shooting in one block?

Quote: ammunition

I’m talking about the component of the rifling pressure vector that is perpendicular to the axis of the barrel and coincides with the tangent hole of the barrel ..

There is no such perpendicular component. Nothing makes the bullet expand. The trouble is with you, however.

Quote: ammunition

what a dumb student got!

Yes, yes, you teach me, if you can.

Quote: ammunition

Since the bullet accelerates (has acceleration) throughout the barrel

A little higher, you argued exactly the opposite. Your last 200 mm bullet did not accelerate.

Quote: ammunition

Press - in the sense of applying force to increase the speed of rotation of the bullet.

This is if the pressure rises. but it grows just in the initial phase. And then, oddly enough, it falls. Apart from the pistols, everything is different there.

Quote: ammunition

(especially for you! I repeat for the fourth time, we are talking only about untwisting pressure).

And what else is pushing, pushing, pushing, and even pushing?

Quote: ammunition

I called this effect the "last push"

Yeah. Now this one, "unwinding". Do you even understand what the hell you are talking about?

Quote: ammunition

and the very shank of the bullet is still experiencing untwisting force

So the "very shank" of high-speed bullets just does not experience anything. Because it is usually made conical. To avoid bottom drag. Have you heard of this?

Quote: ammunition

this is what destabilizes a bullet in flight.

Do not think that at this moment I laughed merrily.

Quote: ammunition

The bullet precesses, and sweeps a larger channel in the air than it has its own caliber.

You would only know how many of these forces are there. One precession with nutation is not enough.

Quote: ammunition

It is from such a bad effect that the cuts (on the last 200 mm) that are arranged in the form of an elongating spiral and which do not affect the bullet are freed .. for the subject of rotation of the bullet.

Enchanting. It’s not easy to find more nonsense on the net.
Excuse me, but I highly recommend that you first try to understand the basics of internal ballistics, and then "remember the rejected rifles."

[Razvedka_Boem]

Please specify the model of the rifle and the name of the designer.

[Razvedka_Boem]

Ammunition (1) RU June 5, 2016 16:28 ↑
Quote: Blondy
And what do competent people think about this?

sad
A long time ago (more than 30 years ago), the competent developed an ultra-long-range, small-caliber rifle, with a heavy tungsten bullet.
Bullet weight - 32 gr. Caliber - 6,5 mm.

They didn’t answer me there ..
"A long time ago, in a distant galaxy ... Sofa wars raged!"

[iConst]

Quote: Blondy

... offer you a link to this Lobayev model (link)

http://lobaev.com/not...

And what do competent people think about this?

I am not a competent person, but following the link and starting to read ....

Style of presentation of information (and the name is Black Ops): cheapness at the level of teenage computer shooters - who is it for?

Normal manufacturers do not obscure, but compare various products. And there it is cheap obsseraniye all in a row.

It turns out KB with almost centuries-old (and sometimes centuries-old) traditions - suckers do not understand anything in arms and only Lobaev with straight arms.

I don’t know how the product is according to its characteristics, but the advertisement directly stinks.

[Blondy]

Yes, God bless him with the name and obseranie, I do not understand why they usually position a long-range rifle with a muzzle velocity of .338 900 m / s as a silent competitor. They have a "saboteur-whisper" .40LW with PBS, but there is the same usual muzzle 315 m / s and up to 600 m. Of course 0.5 MOA is not 1 MOA, but 10.2 is not 12.7 (although it is also nothing) and for such price ...

[iConst]

Quote: Blondy

Yes, God bless him with the name and obseranie, I do not understand why they usually position a long-range rifle with a muzzle velocity of .338 900 m / s as a silent competitor. They have a "saboteur-whisper" .40LW with PBS, but there is the same usual muzzle 315 m / s and up to 600 m. Of course 0.5 MOA is not 1 MOA, but 10.2 is not 12.7 (although it is also nothing) and for such price ...

Well, that's exactly what I was surprised about comparing purple with perpendicular.

It seems that they have taken measures to reduce the visibility of the flame and sound, judging by the presence of the barrel casing.

The question remains regarding the reliability of these very MOA in real stressful conditions, and not "arrived in a jeep in a tuxedo, fired, straightened a bow tie and left for a country cottage to slowly clean a rifle under a glass of whiskey ...".

[Alex_T]

The sound of a shot consists of a shock wave of propellant gases flying out and a sonic boom from the supersonic flight of a bullet. To combat sound in the Exhaust, the bullet speed is lower than the speed of sound (heavy bullet is less than gunpowder) and the exhaust volume (muffler), in the TSVL-8 BLACK-OPS rifle the bullet is still supersonic, only the exhaust volume is suppressed. Ie "Exhaust" is quieter than "TSVL-8 BLACK-OPS", but due to low bullet velocity, the aiming range of "Exhaust" is less than Lobaev's rifle. In the video, the sound of a shot from the TSVL-8 BLACK-OPS is underestimated, in real life the flight of a supersonic bullet is much louder.

[fennekRUS]

900 capes - what kind of "noiselessness" are we talking about? 338lm is an excellent cartridge, and ours took it into service (riveted in Novosibirsk, it seems, on imported bullets) But it doesn't smell of noiselessness, and the Lobaevka's length is considerable. Different niches for ammunition, and, accordingly, for rifles.

[goose]

Look, a sniper should shoot about 4 thousand shots from his barrel per season. Not only is not the cheapest imported cartridge used for Lobayev rifles, but you still have to change the barrel twice, and each costs about 40 thousand dollars. As a result, the preparation of an ordinary sniper for the season alone in terms of weapons will be about 100 thousand dollars. The total cost of training, which must be carried out constantly, every year, will become comparable to the cost of high-quality training of a helicopter pilot or pilot of VT aviation.
Isn't it bold? For SV-98, this amount is 10 times less. With not the most severe drop in the capabilities of weapons.

[Razvedka_Boem]

For a sniper - not greasy.

[Asadullah]

Lobaev model

Gee, this is about serial weapons, Lobaev’s everything is very good and very expensive. The series is not good. And yet, non-serial weapons, you can make at many companies, according to your preferences and the specifics of the tasks. If you want something fabulously expensive, you need to go to Benelli, you want cheap and cheerful, well in AR-7. Lobanov from this series of non-serial. Mass production requires capacities, and there are enough good engineers working for salaries and bonuses.

[Stiletto_711]

The Lobaev’s TSVL-8 rifle under the .338 Lapua Magnum cartridge - with an initial bullet speed of 900 m / s, cannot be positioned as silent, since a bullet flying at supersonic speed creates a shock wave, the sound of which can be heard at long range. As far as I know, LOBAEV-arms released the silent DVL-10 sniper rifle under the .40 Lobaev Whisper subsonic cartridge. So this rifle has a maximum effective range of 600 m.

[castle]

Art is not in the rifle, but in man.
Simo Häyhä did without "Exhaust"

[GSH-18]

Rifle "Exhaust": silent, large-caliber, our

Recently about "Exhaust" a lot of information in the media. What can I say, an expressive fly swatter! Respect to our weapons engineers, and good luck to our special forces, and so that everyone returns home alive and healthy!

[psiho117]

Quote: GSH-18

Rifle "Exhaust": silent, large-caliber, our

Recently about "Exhaust" a lot of information in the media. What can I say, an expressive fly swatter!

That's it, that in the bad media - a lot. A sensible reviews from the pros - one-two and miscalculated. And the opinion of these same pros is not so enthusiastic.
Rather, they feel a bewildering perplexity from this bandura.

I recommend reading a detailed review of Exhaust in the Kalashnikov magazine, where they disassembled it, assembled it, and shot a bunch of them. The conclusions are hard-hitting.

[Sirocco]

I hope the rifle will fulfill the tasks assigned to it not only by the FSB, but also in other special forces of the Armed Forces.
Well, a little about the inconsistency of the article itself and the bottom photo))))
Someone shooter in active headphones made to shoot?

the “Exhaust” shot is so quiet that it more closely resembles a click of an air rifle. According to the subjective opinion of the author of the article, the sound of the VKS shot is even quieter than that of her colleagues - the special silent VSS “Vintorez” and VSK-94 rifles, but the caliber of these samples is 9 mm versus 12,7 mm for the “Exhaust”.

It would be possible not to post this photo, but not to create a reason for the "fan tossing" I think this is a fighter for show off dressed in all that is.
Well, for comparison, Vintorez, only the shutter clang is heard, here, with such a caliber, I did not test it))))) although the PBS is of impressive size. But at what speed does the bullet go in these weapons? I did not understand.

[La-5]

Quote: Sirocco

I hope the rifle will fulfill the tasks assigned to it not only by the FSB, but also in other special forces of the Armed Forces.
Well, a little about the inconsistency of the article itself and the bottom photo))))
Someone shooter in active headphones made to shoot?

the “Exhaust” shot is so quiet that it more closely resembles a click of an air rifle. According to the subjective opinion of the author of the article, the sound of the VKS shot is even quieter than that of her colleagues - the special silent VSS “Vintorez” and VSK-94 rifles, but the caliber of these samples is 9 mm versus 12,7 mm for the “Exhaust”.

It would be possible not to post this photo, but not to create a reason for the "fan tossing" I think this is a fighter for show off dressed in all that is.
Well, for comparison, Vintorez, only the shutter clang is heard, here, with such a caliber, I did not test it))))) although the PBS is of impressive size. But at what speed does the bullet go in these weapons? I did not understand.

About 300m / s, since the bullets have different masses, the speed can vary, but not more than the speed of sound.

[ammunition]

Quote: La-5

but not more than the speed of sound.

You are right.
Here Aleksandr72 (just below his comment), posted the data.
Muzzle velocity: .. 290 m / s.
--------------
These competitors will soon offer us two-pound butt coolers.
With an initial bullet speed of 170 m / s.

[Bayonet]

Quote: Sirocco

Someone shooter in active headphones made to shoot?

Listening to music

[Sirocco]

Quote: Bayonet

Listening to music

Most likely, this is a shot sound booster.

[Fidget]

did you notice a microphone coming down from the shooter's left ear? this is a headset from a walkie-talkie and that's it ...

[cap]

Quote: Bayonet

Quote: Sirocco

Someone shooter in active headphones made to shoot?

Listening to music

Headphones in a set, so as not to injure the ear with the cry of the victim falling from 100 meters.

In addition to the armored plates, such a cartridge can easily penetrate a wooden wall or brickwork up to 10 cm thick. There is no doubt - wherever the bullet of the SC-130 cartridge hits, her sacrifice is almost doomed: a dynamic blow to any part of the body with such a caliber is certain death, and in case of falling into a limb, its separation is guaranteed and severe blood loss. By the way, the store "Exhaust" fits five of these deadly cartridges.

Well done Tula masters

[edge]

Quote: Bayonet

Someone shooter in active headphones made to shoot?

the headphones are active - they cut off dangerous noises and at the same time raise a weak background. But in general, it protects the hearing - he will be
Serve the motherland

[Aleksandr72]

The performance characteristics of a special large-caliber silent sniper rifle 6C8 VKS / VSSK "Exhaust":
Cartridge................................................. ....... 12,7x54 mm SC-130
Weight without an optical sight and cartridges .................. 6,3 kg
Length in combat position ......................................... 795 mm
Length in the stowed position ..................................... 640 mm
Muzzle velocity ............................................ 290 m / with
Combat rate of fire ............................. 30/60 rds / min
Sighting range ................................................ ... 600 m
The capacity of the store ................................................ .... 5 rounds
There are several options for 12,7 mm sniper rifle ammunition
- sniper SC-130 PT increased accuracy with shell bullet, similar to the bullet cartridge 12,7 CH;
- sniper SC-130 PT2 of increased accuracy with a solid (one-component) bronze bullet;
- sniper SC-130 VPS with high penetration ability - with an armor-piercing bullet with a heat-strengthened core protruding from the shell.
- training SC-130 PU, designed for training in loading techniques and verification of the mechanisms of weapons.
And this is a photo of Russian special cartridges for sniper weapons, among them for "Exhaust":

[edge]

Quote: Alexander72

photos of Russian special cartridges for sniper weapons, including for "Exhaust":

reconnaissance groups not only work against living targets, it is necessary to destroy communication objects, electronic warfare, software, equipment ..... etc.

[AndreyS]

Quote: Sirocco

But at what speed does the bullet go in these weapons? I didn’t understand

I can answer your question. The speed of the bullet ammunition PT -290-295 m / s, and the UPU - 315 m / s. By the way, the penetration of NIB (means of individual armor protection) is Grade 5-6 with an AMS cartridge at a distance of 200 m. And accuracy, it’s a sniper rifle - a deviation at a distance of 100 m (Pat. PT) is not more than 3 cm. This is according to the passport.

[Locksmith]

Quote: Sirocco

I think this is a fighter for show off dressed in all that is.

Once I put on a mask that hides my face, maybe I put on headphones to hide my ears, encrypt so completely, although probably the balaclava covers my ears.

[Shiva83483]

Vesch .... we can, when we want .... and for all this magnificence, many thanks to I.V. Stalin and L.P. Beria with their little habits and non-standard solutions to problems. At the exit, as mattress makers did then, and now we continue the glorious traditions of our ancestors ... Lepota and balm for the soul in the morning on weekends is worth a lot.

[Bayonet]

"According to information in the media, in Tula, on the basis of this product and ammunition for it, another type of weapon is being developed - the assault machine ASH-12. However, the representatives of the weapons enterprise themselves do not confirm this information" - Strange, but what is this?
ASH-12 is a Russian large-caliber assault machine, created at TsKIB SOO for the needs of the special forces of the FSB of Russia along with the BCC sniper rifle.
Main characteristics

Caliber: 12,7 × 55
Weapon length: 1020 mm
Barrel length: --- mm
Weight unloaded: 6 kg.
Rate of Shooting: 650 fps / min
Store capacity: 20 cartridges
(click photo.)

[verboo]

Quote: Bayonet

assault rifle

Quote: Bayonet

Caliber: 12,7 × 55

You need to decide what it is. There can be no "assault rifles" on the 12,7 × 55 cartridge.

[Bayonet]

The ASh-12 assault rifle, due to the 12,7x55 large-caliber cartridge used in it, provides a tremendous stopping effect during fire fighting in the city, at short and super short distances ...

[ovod84]

Well, an amusing thing, I learned a lot for myself.

[philosopher]

Under such a cartridge - a machine gun - it would be understandable, but an automatic machine !? The recoil momentum is not too big?

[Bayonet]

Quote: philosopher

The recoil momentum is not too big?

To reduce recoil, the ASH-12 is equipped with a two-chamber muzzle brake.

[Volga Cossack]

I hope that he will enter the army special forces. The right thing. Thank you for the article!

[Earnest]

Quote: Sirocco

... Well, a little about the inconsistency of the article itself and the bottom photos ...

I will also add "five cents" ...

In addition to armored plates, such a cartridge can easily penetrate a wooden wall or brickwork up to 10 cm thick.

Ah, how good it is, the wall is 10 cm through and through ... Only here is a brick 12 cm thick ("Congratulations, my friend, you lied" (C).

[16112014nk]

Quote: Earnest

Only now is a brick 12 cm thick ("Congratulations, my friend, you have lied" (C)

In general, it happens and 10 cm. For example: facade brick format WDF. Not everything is so simple.

[cth; fyn]

And they lay a wall at least the length of a brick i.e. 24cm, and in Siberia for two ie 48cm, otherwise you’re tormenting to drown! My neighbor has a 1,5 brick wall duck, he burns two cars of coal during the winter and buys a lorry in the spring and a half, in the spring I burn a lorry and buy coal in the spring and summer (in the summer for a bath, well, for every fireman, you never know what)

[AllXVahhaB]

Quote: cth; fyn

My neighbor

Is it in Romania or what?

[cth; fyn]

What is Romania like?

[igordok]

As soon as the 12,7 caliber is not bullied, it is thrust into a shell shell, then vice versa into a small cylindrical one. Everything is numb. The main thing is that the end result is.

[volodya]

The article is very interesting, plus to the author!

[Mountain shooter]

Judging by the size of the sleeve, the energy of the cartridge is close to the "three-line". The peculiarity of firing low-velocity ammunition is a very sharp vertical drop of the bullet at a distance. Free fall acceleration, however. Approximately 5 meters at 300 m distance (determined by the time of flight of the bullet, considered 300 m / s). And on 600 meters - already 20 m descent! This is if the speed of the heavy bullet does not drop much. It is difficult with such amendments to shoot at such distances, whatever the optics were. The dynamics of "Exhaust" and "Shaft" (the speed of bullets at the exit from the barrel) are the same, probably, and the range of the shot will be similar. Powerful short-range weapon. The recoil momentum must be hard because of the heavy bullet.
And on the fighter - headphones from the walkie-talkie. Well, there is no tactical headphone wire

[AndreyS]

Quote: Mountain Shooter

And on the fighter - headphones from the walkie-talkie. Well, there is no tactical headphone wire

You are wrong, these active headphones are supplied to the army and are called GSSh-01, they have the ability to connect to a radio station.
Here is an article about them - http://polarman.livejournal.com/26924.html

[Mountain shooter]

And a headset to them? In the first shot.

[avg-mgn]

Quote: philosopher

Under such a cartridge - a machine gun - it would be understandable, but an automatic machine !? The recoil momentum is not too big?

This is probably why the manufacturer does not confirm. From TK to the release of an acceptable working specimen, how many seizures, including the fight against momentum.

[Skubudu]

Big flying time of a bullet, poor flatness ... real shooting distance up to 200m.
But sniper shooting, for example, in a hostage situation ... not one sniper will undertake to shoot from it in such a situation. At a distance of up to 200m, the rifle cartridge 7.62 also sews any wearable armor. In conditions of urban combat, it is better to have a rifle with a high FPS, a long direct shot range and a silencer that, accordingly, will not reduce the volume of the shot a lot, than a low noise but with a low FPS and a slingshot ballistics. Therefore, I do not understand the niche for the use of this rifle.
Before minuscule, look out of the rifles with which ballistics all the special forces of the world shoot.

[brn521]

Quote: Skubudu

Before minuscule, look out of the rifles with which ballistics all the special forces of the world shoot.

Regular sniper rifles with a screwed-on silencer and special cartridge. The caliber is small, and cannot compete with the "Exhaust" in terms of power. But at a distance of up to 200m, this is enough for them. Tactical silencers are also used. At a short distance, they scatter sound and muffle the flash, interfering with the localization of the shooter in the shot. On medium and above they work as full-fledged mufflers, attenuated sound dissipates almost completely with distance. A normal rifle with a tactical silencer at medium ranges is likely to be cheaper and more accurate than the Exhaust.

[1536]

Since Soviet times, the TsKIB SOO has the glory to make unit, single excellent examples of small arms. God grant that this fate does not suffer their current developments. And what is needed for this? We need the political will of the customer to order weapons in the city of Tula, and not in the suburbs of the city of Breschi in Italy.
Is it really impossible to fill the hunting shops with OUR good, not expensive weapons of various modifications, replaceable sets of trunks, outwardly beautiful samples, finally ?! Yes, you can, of course. Perhaps military developments will help.

[martin-159]

In the design of the weapon, it was decided to use a scheme with manual reloading, which gives higher accuracy and accuracy of fire compared to automatic samples. The return of such weapons is less, since there is no inertia from the movement of the bolt inside the receiver. Finally, this design is simpler and easier, which affects reliability and convenience.

At the expense of returns, I would argue.

[Mountain shooter]

Right. The return on systems with automation is BELOW.

[Siberian]

.... It is gratifying to read such news, it says that the military-industrial complex of Russia is gradually rising from its knees ... And you do not need to be a great specialist to understand that this product will find its consumer not only in our Army, but also abroad. Well, the growth of technical thought indicates that progress in Russian weapons is not standing still, which means that new production and new jobs will appear .... As for = products =, so much has been said about it, and add - then there is nothing .........

[Kenneth]

I can not imagine the task for this thing. Kill the tank but so that no one notices.

[cyberhanter]

mounted Picatinny rail

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the weaver plank, not Piccatini. The article is one, in the pictures another. This is someone's illiteracy in the photo of Viver, but then decided to make Piccatini?

[La-5]

Quote: cyberhanter

mounted Picatinny rail

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the weaver plank, not Piccatini. The article is one, in the pictures another. This is someone's illiteracy in the photo of Viver, but then decided to make Piccatini?

They differ only in the size of the slots, you can even mount sights designed for Weaver mount on Picatinny rail, but if on the contrary you have to work with a file.

[cdznjckfd]

In the exhaust, the obvious development of the screw cut theme is apparently someone from the FSB specialists lacked the power of 9mm, so they ordered it to be guaranteed at night to those who tear off their heads on the chip.

[ishty]

In the conditions of urban battle, but with a lot of ruins, a very good device.

[Syria]

Where duval is difficult to dig in - a heavy bullet when hit will give a lot of stone debris flying in all directions. It will not raise their heads and nothing is visible. Covering a group with fire of such a rifle during an attack is a sweet deal.

[psiho117]

Quote: sirias

Where duval is difficult to dig in - a heavy bullet when hit will give a lot of stone debris flying in all directions. It will not raise their heads and nothing is visible. Covering a group with fire of such a rifle during an attack is a sweet deal.

what the nonsense ?!

cover with fire from five-shot Pandora with tame reloading ?!

[Forever so]

What a delight !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[berezin1987]

A good rifle for specific tasks. She would expand the range of ammunition used to combat the enemy's material assets. It is clear that in this case the effect of surprise after the first shots will be lost. But the silence of the shot will greatly complicate the determination of the location of a sniper by the sound of the shot, increasing the likelihood of a combat mission. For example, the destruction of enemy aircraft at the airport or the defeat of the radar

[berezin1987]

The only minus of the rifle is the low quality of the finish, the use of low-quality plastic. The same applies to the OS-96, if you look at the quality of surface treatment, especially at the huge weld on the side. In addition to high performance characteristics, the weapon should have a presentable appearance. Look at American designs and the quality of their exterior. Why in Russia they are wrapping tasty sweets in double packaging? Is it really so expensive to remove traces of machine tools and polish surfaces, remove sharp corners and burrs?

[goose]

Quote: berezin1987

Is it really so expensive to remove traces of machine tools and polish surfaces, remove sharp corners and burrs

Everything rests on the price of manual labor. You want a smooth seam - the price is 2 times more. After all, the children of workers in Tula want to eat no less than the children of American gunsmiths.

[brn521]

Quote: berezin1987

The only minus of the rifle is the low quality of the finish, the use of low-quality plastic.

Cardin in his magazine somehow laid out her price tag for the Ministry of Internal Affairs, 480 thousand rubles. in 2009 http://karden.livejournal.com/10099.html.

Quote: berezin1987

Is it really so expensive to remove traces of machine tools and polish surfaces, remove sharp corners and burrs?

It’s better to save a few thousand for a rollback, then there will be a much greater chance of pushing the same Ministry of Internal Affairs.

Quote: berezin1987

She would expand the range of ammunition used to combat the enemy's material assets.

There are silent underbarrel grenade launchers and silent mortars.

[Filxnumx]

And how did the unshavenness of the MiG-25 pilot affect the flight speed of this aircraft? Not all that glitters is gold.

[Above_name]

ammunition (1) RU Yesterday, 16:28 ↑
...

Once upon a time (over 30 years ago), the competent developed an ultra-long-range, small caliber rifle with a heavy tungsten bullet.
...
3) Heavy and small caliber the bullet does not require wind adjustments ..

[Backfire]

Great article is very interesting.

[tracer]

Oh, how Much bother "triangular affairs" ..... The article is excellent, well written and the topic is good. Komeny time at times such that you can just read it. I rummaged through a lot of information about a closed project with a 6.5 mm bullet. Didn't know that there was such a "tricky" trunk. Thanks to the participants for the discussion.

[Bormanxnumx]

Quote: ammunition

Quote: Blondy

And what do competent people think about this?

A long time ago (more than 30 years ago), the competent developed an ultra-long-range, small-caliber rifle, with a heavy tungsten bullet.
Bullet weight - 32 gr. Caliber - 6,5 mm.
--------------------
1) Bullet of small caliber and heavy weight very slightly loses speed in the air on the first 3 (three) kilometers of flight. So it easily penetrates the side of an armored personnel carrier to a distance of 2000 meters.
2) A large barrel length - 1200 mm .., coupled with a very large initial bullet speed - 1250 m / s, allow you to make flat, ideally - gentle cuts of the barrel. And this gave a very rare accuracy.
3) Heavy and small-caliber bullet does not require wind adjustments under normal conditions. That is - with a wind of not more than 5m / s.
4) An ordinary silencer makes the rifle completely silent, at its most working distances - 2000 m.
------------------
But The project was hacked .. And forgot forever.
You see, it's expensive. In those days .. one shot from such a rifle .. came out at a cost, like a shot from a D-30 howitzer.
---------------
The generals were genuinely indignant .. They said - "Yes, it's better to blow a shell!"

Is this some kind of free retelling of the characteristics of the Steyr AMR / IWS 2000 rifle?

[philosopher]

Most likely, we are talking about an experimental SVK rifle under a 6mm caliber cartridge, only with highly exaggerated characteristics.
http://www.guns.yfa1.ru/snajperskaya-vintovka-svk-kalibrom-6-mm.html

[Max White]

Quote: Blondy

Guys, you know, I'm not an expert. And of course the exhaust is good in its niche.
But in the name of the principle "all sorts of mothers are needed, all sorts of mothers are important" I would like to offer you a link to this Lobaev model (link)

http://lobaev.com/notes/tsvl-8-black-ops

Also positioned as a silent uberblyushka - TSVL-8 BLACK-OPS -TSVL-8 Stalingrad

The energy of the cartridge 338 Lapua Magnum does not allow to doubt that a sufficient amount of energy will be delivered to the addressee. This is not a half-pregnant charge on the principle of "just-was-quieter", no. All in an adult way. No compromises: 900 m per second with a bullet of 16, 2 grams, leaving the muzzle with humane 7000J.

And what do competent people think about this?

This Lobayev rifle can be compared, for example, with ORSIS T-5000 in 338 caliber. They have a mission, and technical performance, and characteristics are approximately the same.
It is incorrect to compare with the Exhaust according to all of the above parameters. This is the same as comparing a jeep with a passenger car.
Sincerely.

[coastline]

great weapon