Military Review

Aussies prefer French to German submarines

41
Australia rejected the proposed German diesel-electric submarines (project 216) from ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) at the tender because of their high noise levels, according to a French resource The sailor.




According to the resource, “the Australian delegation 13 of May 2016 of the year arrived in Kiel and explained to the representatives of TKMS and the German government that their proposal was rejected due to the“ unacceptable ”noise level at some frequencies.”

In this regard, according to the Australians, "the 216 project does not provide a sufficient guarantee for the successful fulfillment of the combat mission, especially in the case of conducting intelligence operations near the coast."

However, the Australian military highly appreciated the capabilities of the French submarine Shortfin Barracuda, manufactured by DCNS.

“In this project, there are solutions that have already been used in the Barracuda nuclear submarine project, a series of which is being built for the French fleet. We are talking about a water-jet nozzle on the propeller, which, according to the French, will allow boats of the Shortfin Barracuda type to increase the speed of the low-noise driving mode, in comparison with the Japanese and German competitors, ”the resource notes.
Photos used:
http://www.morvesti.ru
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  1. seti
    seti 1 June 2016 12: 13
    0
    Let’s see if the French will throw them like us and the Mistrals. Although an interesting solution - it seems like submarines of comparable types in Germany are better. But probably it’s the price. A mean, as you know ..
    1. Ami du peuple
      Ami du peuple 1 June 2016 12: 18
      +10
      Quote: seti
      Let's see if their French will throw like us and the Mistrals
      They won't throw them, in a "civilized society" it's not accepted to throw their own people. The only one who can afford this is the United States. But that's why they are the chief plowman, to fool their sixes.
      Do you remember how we broke up about the fact that the French in the history of Mistral undermined their business reputation? As you can see, nothing like
      1. poquello
        poquello 1 June 2016 12: 22
        +1
        Quote: Ami du peuple
        Quote: seti
        Let's see if their French will throw like us and the Mistrals
        They won't throw them, in a "civilized society" it's not accepted to throw their own people. The only one who can afford this is the United States.
        And remember. how did we go broke about the fact that the French in the history of the Mistral have undermined their business reputation? As you can see. nothing like this

        just stealth in the trend, everyone wants to be modern, and why the reputation - the French made this throw from the whole group of comrades
      2. Finches
        Finches 1 June 2016 12: 25
        +8
        And we were not particularly ruined about the tarnished reputation of the French shipbuilding company, the disputes over whether we need the Mistrals or is it another stupid adventure of Serdyukov are more memorable! from the camp "Mistrals - our everything!" laughing

        I think that the Australians would love to consider our boats of the "Shark" project, but they are afraid that their daddy will scold ... laughing
      3. oldseaman1957
        oldseaman1957 1 June 2016 12: 25
        -2
        Quote: seti
        But probably it’s the price.
        - Yes, it’s not the price, but the level of comfort. Surely the French have a toilet and a bidet in each cabin. It was then that the Australian warriors arrows and translated ...
      4. BARKAS
        BARKAS 1 June 2016 12: 38
        0
        Quote: Ami du peuple
        Do you remember how we broke up about the fact that the French in the history of Mistral undermined their business reputation? As you can see, nothing like

        Well, why didn’t they tell their own people China and India?
    2. Thunderbolt
      Thunderbolt 1 June 2016 12: 23
      +3
      Quote: seti
      maybe their French will throw like us and the Mistrals. X
      And their interests do not overlap and in many ways they are moving together. The Australians do not climb into the French colonies, in addition, they are the main allies of the United States in their region. They can always agree.
      Why are they so disgraced the German boats in front of all honest people for the noise, now probably in the Israeli Navy a little "Achtung !!!" will happen.)))
      1. Oleg7700
        Oleg7700 1 June 2016 21: 41
        +1
        Israel naturally carried out the necessary and very scrupulous tests of the new boats "for low noise", as reported in the Hebrew-speaking media. In AIP mode, the most advanced German sonars, Atlas Electronic, could not distinguish the boat against the background of the natural noise of the sea. It turns out that the French themselves told the Australians about the mythical "noise" of the still non-existent Type 216 following the results of "computer modeling" ...
    3. Amurets
      Amurets 1 June 2016 12: 39
      +1
      Quote: seti
      Let’s see if their French will throw like the Mistrals and me. Although an interesting solution - it seems like the submarines of comparable types in Germany are better. But probably it’s the price

      100% will not be thrown. Most likely the Americans put pressure on the Australians to somehow rehabilitate the business reputation of DCNS after the non-delivery of the Mistrals to the Russian Federation. Only the Australians chose a boat without VNEU, with a conventional power plant, and the Germans offered them a boat with VNEU. The price played a whole role.
      1. Stas157
        Stas157 1 June 2016 15: 03
        +2
        Quote: Amurets
        That's just the Australians chose a boat without VNEU, with a conventional power plant, and the Germans offered them a boat with VNEU.


        http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1870145.html
        This news is for the month of April yet.
        The Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A boat is not planned to be equipped with an air-independent power plant, but should use a new generation of high-capacity lithium-ion batteries to increase the underwater range, marking a return to the diesel-electric circuit.

        The requirements of the Australian fleet under the program include a non-nuclear submarine with unprecedented range and autonomy characteristics in order to effectively use these ships in remote areas - such as the Chinese seas, the Persian Gulf and even the North Pacific.

        Maybe we need to look towards lithium-polymer batteries? The price of Varshavyanka pr.636 is about 300 million dollars, and the cost of batteries is 10 million dollars, that is, not at all much relative to the cost of the boat itself.
        1. Leto
          Leto 1 June 2016 18: 32
          +1
          Quote: Stas157
          Maybe we need to look towards lithium-polymer batteries? The price of Varshavyanka pr.636 is about 300 million dollars, and the cost of batteries is 10 million dollars, that is, not at all much relative to the cost of the boat itself.

          The Japanese completely abandon the internal combustion engine, plan to score with batteries alone (lithium of course) and dislike the brain with all these fuel cells and other Stirling ... So it’s a reasonable decision.
    4. weksha50
      weksha50 1 June 2016 12: 42
      +1
      Quote: seti
      Although an interesting solution - it seems like submarines of comparable types in Germany are better.


      Yes, and I thought about the same thing ...

      But the Australians are primarily interested in noiselessness in order to conduct reconnaissance operations ... This is whose coast and what are they going to sniff out?
      1. Thunderbolt
        Thunderbolt 1 June 2016 13: 12
        0
        To block the actions of the Chinese fleet in the southern sector of the Pacific Ocean, to protect the supply routes of its remote continent, to have undeniable superiority over the fleets of island states, to ensure the actions of its expeditionary forces and the forces of the allies --- the fleet laid for decades ahead, waiting for the rise of China and its possible expansion.
        It is likely that they will improve the airborne defense, too, for the future ...
        1. Leto
          Leto 1 June 2016 15: 10
          +1
          Quote: Thunderbolt
          To block the actions of the Chinese fleet in the southern sector of the Pacific Ocean, to protect the supply routes of its remote continent, to have undeniable superiority over the fleets of island states, to ensure the actions of its expeditionary forces and the forces of the allies --- the fleet laid for decades ahead, waiting for the rise of China and its possible expansion.

          You are one hundred percent right. Even in the commercial, Shortfin Barracuda is hammering the Chinese. Although they missed the PLO plane, it doesn’t look like the An-12 at all.
  2. Irokez
    Irokez 1 June 2016 12: 14
    +4
    It turns out our boats are not the noisiest. And then we roll on our barrel. Although politics can be involved here.
    1. Grandson of Veteran
      Grandson of Veteran 1 June 2016 12: 24
      +2
      "It turns out our boats are not the noisiest"
      Our diesel-electric submarines have never been the noisiest and never been. So they talked about the nuclear-powered ships of previous generations. “Roaring cows” remember?
      1. Leto
        Leto 1 June 2016 13: 00
        -1
        Quote: Veteran's grandson
        Our diesel-electric submarines have never been the noisiest and never been. So they talked about the nuclear-powered ships of previous generations. “Roaring cows” remember?

        All submarines were considered "noisy" until they began to install new complex-shaped propellers made on the Toshiba Machine and Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk machines. In the USSR, they knew how to design propellers of complex shapes, but they could not produce them, the "advanced" socialist industry did not produce high-precision CNC metal-cutting machines, such as the MBP-110 with nine independent spindles and an electronic controller.
        So all the submarines "roared" regardless of the type of power plant.
      2. ohtandur
        ohtandur 1 June 2016 13: 59
        +2
        By the way, as I read in one article here on TopVara, it is a delusion that a "roaring cow" means a noisy boat. In English, "roaring cow" should not be translated literally, but by meaning. And the point is that in cowboys, a roaring cow is the one that wants to calve. That is, the Soviet boats were that pregnant cows were ready at any moment to "calve" by torpedoes at the enemy. I would like the myth about the noise of "roaring cows" to disappear, especially on this respected resource.
        1. Amurets
          Amurets 1 June 2016 15: 15
          +1
          Quote: ohtandur
          That is, the Soviet boats were that pregnant cows were ready at any moment to "calve" by torpedoes at the enemy. I would like the myth about the noise of "roaring cows" to disappear, especially on this respected resource.

          I heard a slightly different interpretation. The meaning is about the same, but we are talking about missile carriers filling rocket mines with water before launching missiles. By the way, here is the link http://topwar.ru/60293-mify-ssha-revuschie-korovy-sovetskogo-vmf.html
          1. ohtandur
            ohtandur 1 June 2016 15: 48
            0
            Well, yes, I remember reading an article a long time ago. this one is. there in the comments and met

            Cynic (3) RU October 15, 2014 10:46
            It is said loudly who worked there and so had an idea of ​​his notorious backwardness. True, everyone in their field.
            And there were enough servicemen, this is a white bone, supposedly the intelligentsia, who did not serve in the army, believed any nonsense.
            Yes, the meaning of the term “roaring cows” was very freely interpreted by objective publicity and naturally in a negative sense for our nuclear submarines .
            I met that a roaring cow (roaring cow) on a cowboy slang is a cow, as they say, on demolition, looking for a place where to calve. Someone from the US Navy dubbed our submarines such a nickname, motivating the similarity of situations. There the advent of the calf, here the launch of rockets.
            Direct translation is almost always not what they wanted to say, and even in army slang ...
            For example _ laughing drinks
      3. Alexandr-NVR
        Alexandr-NVR 1 June 2016 16: 47
        0
        You are not quite right.
        Such a nickname was received only by the K-266 “Eagle” submarine (pr. 949A “Antey”)
        When laying the Eagle submarine in 1989, both shafts that rotated the propellers consisted of separate parts fastened with bolts and couplings. All parts must be solid, as on the Kursk nuclear submarine, but on the Eagle they were hollow. Quartz sand was poured inside. According to the calculations of the designers, such shafts should not be inferior in strength to cast shafts, but at the same time they were less noisy and also lighter, cheaper and easier to manufacture.
        For hollow shafts, lightweight screws were required, but they did not manage to finish their development before the collapse of the USSR. As a result, in 1992, the Eagle submarine was launched with new lines of shafts and old propellers. After the submarine was transferred to the Navy, the shafts in the attachment points became very twisted and began to rub against the walls with a characteristic sound. This, in turn, unmasked the submarine.
        The Orel submarine thundered with its ramparts all over the Barents Sea. With increasing speed, the sound amplified to such an extent that it drowned out the acoustics around the background. For Americans and British, the submarine was nicknamed "the roaring cow of the Barents Sea."

        In 2013, work began on the modernization of the cruiser - they will replace the propeller shafts. Missile weapons will also be replaced - obsolete anti-ship missiles P-700 Granit will be replaced with new supersonic missiles P-800 Onyx. Also, the submarine will receive modern avionics
        Planned return to operation by the end of 2016
    2. Leto
      Leto 1 June 2016 14: 32
      0
      Quote: Irokez
      It turns out our boats are not the noisiest. And then we roll on our barrel. Although politics can be involved here.

      The note did not correctly convey the claims of the Australians. The fact is that in almost all submarines "silent mode" is maximally achieved at low speeds, a maximum of 5-6 knots, or 10 km / h on land. Such speeds impose restrictions on the use because "enemy ships" usually do not go at such speeds, to keep up with them by 5 knots. just impossible. As the speed increases, the noise level increases, which jeopardizes the performance of the NNS mission. The attachment allows you to walk "silently" at higher speeds. Germans in the conditions of the Baltic Sea 5 knots. behind the eyes, the Australians in the oceans are unacceptable, the vastness does not allow such speeds.
  3. Grandson of Veteran
    Grandson of Veteran 1 June 2016 12: 23
    +2
    Quote: Ami du peuple
    They won't throw them, in a "civilized society" it's not accepted to throw their own people. The only one who can afford this is the United States.
    And remember. how did we go broke about the fact that the French in the history of the Mistral have undermined their business reputation? As you can see. nothing like this


    You are absolutely right. No damage to the reputation, it was immediately clear. They agree very well with each other. And where they don’t agree, the overlord from behind the puddle will push the whole world.
  4. Engineer
    Engineer 1 June 2016 12: 25
    0
    They didn’t agree on the kickbacks, that’s all.
  5. weksha50
    weksha50 1 June 2016 12: 40
    0
    The photo for the article is valid ...

    Ahead of the submarine on the course - "water jumping" pilot ...
    1. dauria
      dauria 1 June 2016 12: 59
      0
      The photo for the article is valid ...


      Why are they so fond of the X-shaped plumage? (I'm talking about the Germans) It seems that it does not give special advantages. what
      1. Leto
        Leto 1 June 2016 14: 39
        +2
        Quote: dauria
        It does not seem to give special advantages.

        The depths of the Baltic Sea ...
  6. KRIK33
    KRIK33 1 June 2016 12: 41
    0
    Judging by the photograph for the article, the submarine is then on a steam engine ... smile
  7. soroKING
    soroKING 1 June 2016 12: 45
    0
    it is strange that Psheks will not be presented to us for the name of our project-Varshavyanka what
  8. Igor V
    Igor V 1 June 2016 12: 45
    +1
    And these against whom? Is Russia here even closer. belay
    1. 4 wheels
      4 wheels 1 June 2016 13: 09
      0
      Quote: Igor V
      are these against whom?

      The owner ordered them, so they puff laughing
  9. Barakuda
    Barakuda 1 June 2016 12: 51
    0
    It's about a water jet nozzle on a screw,

    I'm not a specialist, of course, but vague doubts gnaw that they are less low-noise. And how does this "attachment" even theoretically look? (no time to dig, maybe who knows)
    Or is it just a tricky "pipe" on the "propeller"?
    1. Leto
      Leto 1 June 2016 15: 06
      +1
      Quote: Barracuda
      Or is it just a tricky "pipe" on the "propeller"?

      NAPL itself and propulsion
  10. sailor52
    sailor52 1 June 2016 12: 55
    +3
    Quote: Ami du peuple
    Do you remember how we broke up about the fact that the French in the history of Mistral undermined their business reputation? As you can see, nothing like


    We are in the eyes of both the French and the Australians a third world country, savages.
    Australians would do the same to us, like dozens of other US vassals.
    They have their own long-established party, economic and military-political. Against us.
    We should be friends with the Asians, which we do.
  11. Barakuda
    Barakuda 1 June 2016 13: 06
    +2
    Quote: sailor52
    We should be friends with Asians, which we do

    It is worth being friends with everyone (to the best of their ability with each "player"). And then a plus now, it can give an exhaust like with Turkey. And vice versa.
    To do this, Churkin and Lavrov in their places and crawl out of their skin.
  12. Verdun
    Verdun 1 June 2016 13: 12
    0
    Aussies prefer French to German submarines

    Looks like good kickbacks are offered by the military-industrial complex of France. Russian customers - for "Mistral", Australian - for submarines. But gentlemen from the green continent now have to be more careful. Well, how can you find a reason to impose sanctions?
  13. sailor52
    sailor52 1 June 2016 13: 42
    +3
    Quote: Barracuda
    To do this, Churkin and Lavrov in their places and crawl out of their skin.

    It is necessary with all. Right. I'm on priorities.
    Asia is bottomless, both financially and industrially. They are ready and willing to cooperate and earn money, to promote the interests of their countries. Unlike the Western world, which serves the interests of only one country.

    Everyone has probably heard the concept of "industrial safety".
    And there is such a term as linguistic security. Partner, whether the enemy should be understood. And his language, and behavior, and thinking and plans.
    How many citizens of the Russian Federation know or at least understand English? Almost every second manager in a more or less large city. Where, however, lives a fairly large number of citizens.
    Well, let's say the figure in 1 million. Offhand. Maybe two.
    And how many citizens speak Chinese? At the conversational level, more or less decent?
    40 thousand.

    Total.

    Although no longer 90, when we were in the grip of illusions that now the West will help us to heal like a human. In the 21 century, the benefits to our country from interaction with the Chinese are several times higher than from the Anglo-Saxons. It is not easy to cooperate with the Chinese, they defend in the transactions primarily their own interests, very stingy ones.
    There is a saying: an optimist studies English; Realist studies Chinese: pessimist studies Kalashnikov assault rifle.
    In principle, 2 and 3 clause do not contradict each other))
    At the same time, the Chinese study us, our experience, history. A whole institute was founded to study the reasons for the collapse of the USSR.
    It is good that Lavrov and Churkin crawl out of their places in their places. But it would be necessary for the rest of the citizens to help them in this. The more professionals who professionally know the East, from tz. linguistics, economics, etc. - the better for us.
    1. Barakuda
      Barakuda 1 June 2016 14: 53
      +2
      Well Sergey, convinced good
  14. David_bek
    David_bek 1 June 2016 15: 39
    0
    Not everything is so clean in this tender. Of course, the low noise of the boat is an important matter, but the French do not yet have a single "living" sample of the boat that they want to build for Australia, which means that there is no serious evidence yet that this boat is better in terms of low noise than the one proposed by the Germans. In addition, German boats are in demand not only in Germany. Israel, for example, bought several of these boats for its navy, and the Israelis take such purchases very seriously. Well, you can also add that recently there was information in the English-language media that one of the Australian Ministry of Defense officials responsible for the tender resigned literally on the eve of the announcement of the tender results and was later discovered by meticulous media in the service of the mentioned French company. So nothing human is alien to either the Germans, or the Russians, or the French, or the Australians. Money - they are money in Africa, and only in their own pocketeee ...
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 1 June 2016 16: 19
      +1
      "but the French do not yet have a single" living "sample of the boat that they want to build for Australia," ///

      There is. They have a ready-made nuclear submarine, which they remake into the usual one especially for the Australians. Their boats are the largest, and the French agreed that they would be built at Australian shipyards.

      Actually, the Japanese were supposed to win the tender. Their boats are the most advanced,
      but intervened through diplomatic channels China. Hinted that the acoustic handwriting
      the Japanese and Australians will be the same, and if, in which case, they mistakenly drown that one, do not be offended ...

      Israel bought from Germany, as the price was the lowest (subsidy from the German government).
      For Germany, it was critical that boats be built at their shipyards (to provide people with work).
      The Germans made all the changes ordered by Israel (in fact, each submarine turned out to be an individual project), with Israeli weapons systems and instruments.
  15. red_october
    red_october 1 June 2016 21: 37
    +1
    Quote: sailor52
    Quote: Barracuda
    To do this, Churkin and Lavrov in their places and crawl out of their skin.

    It is necessary with all. Right. I'm on priorities.
    Asia is bottomless, both financially and industrially. They are ready and willing to cooperate and earn money, to promote the interests of their countries. Unlike the Western world, which serves the interests of only one country.

    Everyone has probably heard the concept of "industrial safety".
    And there is such a term as linguistic security. Partner, whether the enemy should be understood. And his language, and behavior, and thinking and plans.
    How many citizens of the Russian Federation know or at least understand English? Almost every second manager in a more or less large city. Where, however, lives a fairly large number of citizens.
    Well, let's say the figure in 1 million. Offhand. Maybe two.
    And how many citizens speak Chinese? At the conversational level, more or less decent?
    40 thousand.

    Total.

    Although no longer 90, when we were in the grip of illusions that now the West will help us to heal like a human. In the 21 century, the benefits to our country from interaction with the Chinese are several times higher than from the Anglo-Saxons. It is not easy to cooperate with the Chinese, they defend in the transactions primarily their own interests, very stingy ones.
    There is a saying: an optimist studies English; Realist studies Chinese: pessimist studies Kalashnikov assault rifle.
    In principle, 2 and 3 clause do not contradict each other))
    At the same time, the Chinese study us, our experience, history. A whole institute was founded to study the reasons for the collapse of the USSR.
    It is good that Lavrov and Churkin crawl out of their places in their places. But it would be necessary for the rest of the citizens to help them in this. The more professionals who professionally know the East, from tz. linguistics, economics, etc. - the better for us.


    +100
    Let's remember Hillary Clinton with a red button "PEREGRUZKA"
    It would seem that the mistake is a language, but it is already clear from this that they have a tight relationship with specialists in Russia ...
    It is no accident that Obama failed the entire foreign policy course in our country. Well and not only Obama