Nimitz v. Moscow, assessment of real opportunities

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In the spring of 1783, after the annexation of Crimea to Russia, Empress Catherine II signed a decree establishing the Black Sea fleet. Nowadays, after the re-annexation of Crimea to Russia, this day becomes again significant and historically connected with the present. I sincerely congratulate the sailors of the Black Sea Fleet on their holiday and dedicate this article to the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet - the Moscow missile cruiser. Although the reason for writing the article is not a holiday, but another publication. The pages of the respected patriotic Internet resource "Free Press" have recently published remarkable material on the confrontation between the Russian and American fleets. This topic has long become relevant in connection with the aggravation of relations between Russia and the United States and the war in Syria. The author of the material, respected by many military experts, Konstantin Sivkov, claims that the so-called “killer aircraft carriers” are Russian project 1164 cruisers (the project includes the flagships of the Pacific and Black Sea fleets missile cruisers “Varyag” and “Moscow”) are. In other words, they cannot compete with American aircraft carriers in the event of a direct combat collision. Of course, we are not talking about a one-on-one duel, in reality, such ships go only accompanied by other, less powerful, but bearing important functions of ships, that is, groups of ships complementing each other functionally and forming sufficiently protected and stable in real battle connection. For aircraft carriers, such groups are called AUG - aircraft carrier strike group. There is no special name for our cruisers, and the composition of such groups is much more variable and depends on the specific situation. Most often, our “killer aircraft carriers” are escorted by anti-submarine ships, which serve as additional protection against submarines. These are like inseparable pairs. Other ships are already part of the order only to strengthen the overall strike force or carry some additional functions (such as landing ships, rescuers and tankers). In principle, the cruiser itself, unlike the aircraft carrier, has quite a lot of functionality, the ship carries the most extensive set of weapons that can protect the cruiser from a variety of threats - both from surface ships, and from aircraft and submarines. Just special ships can do this a little better and allow the flagship not to do all the things right away. Separation of threats is also an important factor for their successful reflection.


Flagship of the Black Sea Fleet missile cruiser Moscow


In general, the discussion here is still not about a duel, but about a confrontation between two likely opponents, accompanied by their most common assistants. That is how the situation was considered by the doctor of military sciences, corresponding member of the Russian Academy of Missile and Artillery Sciences, captain of the first rank, first vice-president of the Academy of Geopolitical Problems Konstantin Sivkov. And he made a disappointing conclusion - "our ship’s formation will not even be able to approach the distance of missile firing." In other words, our heavy cruisers are not any “killer aircraft carriers”. It seems like a myth is, aircraft carriers are stronger. And we have no choice but to build our own ... Otherwise, things are bad. This is the main message of the article, which, to put it mildly, outraged me. And not even a conclusion that I cannot agree with, but an almost complete absence of argumentation. It is clear that the article was intended for the general public, who is often not interested in technical details ... However, this style of presentation is generally strange for a military specialist. General phrases about the fact that the enemy has "superiority in the range of application of the deck aviation"and" airstrikes of up to 40 machines "cannot serve as arguments. After all, this is not a lecture for schoolchildren, a more detailed justification is needed. Moreover, there are no obvious errors. But the mistakes of the doctor of military sciences in the article are very serious. It can be said that shameful and I, as an analyst without a military education (behind me, only a university military department), are a little ashamed to point them out. But we assume that I can be wrong. Perhaps. But I still have to point them out to a specialist. Since the topic is relevant and about she writes in the media. I would be glad if I they will answer and find mistakes already with me ... Such a discussion will be useful in any case and will draw attention to the problems of military construction. Are specialists always right in such matters? Let's figure it out.


American aircraft carrier Nimitz


Let's start with the simple. With the statement that "our ship connection cannot even reach the missile firing distance". What is this distance? It would be reasonable to indicate the range of this shooting and show that "airstrikes with a compound up to 40 machines" will destroy our connection before the cruiser approaches this distance to the aircraft carrier. By the way, the author did not forget to indicate the range of the aircraft carrier’s wing - it is “capable of controlling air and surface space to a depth of 800 km”. This is the only specifics. Although it would be possible to specify a bit more specifically - the F / A-18 Hornet fighter (or F / A-18E / F Super Hornet) with a combat radius of 726 km is used as part of the aircraft carrier wing. Its radius should be compared with the range of missiles of our cruisers. There is no comparison. Only said about "superiority in the range of use of carrier-based aviation." It would seem that something easier - compare the range weapons and point out the difference. That would be a real argument. He is not here. And we will study it. So, our cruisers are famous precisely for their rocket weapons - the 16 th PU for the powerful Basalt or Vulcan rocket complex. The missile armament of the cruiser "Moskva" I have already dealt with somehow in my article "How Moscow Saved Syria." The article was just devoted to the issue of confrontation of this cruiser with the American AUG operating in the Mediterranean. "Moscow" then simply drove the American aircraft carrier from Syria. And if the cruiser missiles did not threaten the aircraft carrier, then he would not have left. The cruiser armament was discussed in more detail in the article “Russia is creating the Mediterranean fleet”. There I explained:

"A supersonic missile with a mass of 5 tons and an official range of 700 km (real may be more) represents a very serious threat to the entire US fleet, its warhead with 500 kg of explosives can destroy an aircraft carrier, and with nuclear stuffing in 350ct an entire enemy order Air defense against rockets flying at a speed of 2,5 mach is not very effective, especially at ultra-low altitudes of the order of 5 meters, at which the rockets attack their target. "


So what scared the aircraft carrier? And the fact that cruiser missiles have a range of up to 700 km (officially) and this almost coincides with Hornet’s combat radius! And if such a missile is equipped with a tactical nuclear warhead, then one such missile would be enough for the entire AUG. And their at the cruiser 16 pieces. And it is unlikely that they were supplied only with a conventional mine. Of course, variants of a non-nuclear conflict can also be considered, but 500 kg of conventional explosives will be enough to pierce a wide hole in the aircraft carrier that can sink it. And the only question is that aviation still acts a little further - a couple of dozen kilometers. Is this enough to stop our ships at a range, a greater missile launch distance? This is the whole essence of the issue, and the specialist should have discussed it in detail. We have to do it for him.

Firstly, by all respected Wikipedia, we are informed that the anti-ship missile P-1000 "Vulkan", which is armed with the cruiser "Moscow", has a range not 700, but 1000 km, that is, above our official data. And this is logical: even the name of the missiles contains a real range in kilometers. And since the Vulkan P-1000 rocket is an upgrade of the P-700 Granit rocket with a range of 700 km, it is simply difficult to assume otherwise. Otherwise, what would be the modernization? In the management? Then they would add just the letter "M" at the end. No, the new rocket was qualitatively different from the previous one and its name reflected - after all, almost all missiles with an “P” index have a range corresponding to the name (More precisely, a close one: P-70 Amethyst has a range 80 km, P-120 “Malachite” - 150, P-500 "Basalt" - 550 km. However, the range depends on the flight profile and the maximum range specified in the characteristics does not apply in combat, and the rule is not absolute - the P-15 "Termite" has a range not 15, but 35-40 km ). We have a tradition in our tradition to somewhat underestimate the possibilities of armaments (so calmly to the military, “let the enemy think that we are weaker, but how are we zhahnem!”). For Americans, the tradition is the opposite - somewhat overstate. So their military-industrial complex is rubbing glasses to the congress in order to beat out extra money. And the world is easier to frighten by its invincibility .... In general, I believe that Wikipedia is right here. She is lying on humanitarian issues, and in terms of armaments she gives the latest spy data. Perhaps spies directly transmit their information through Wikipedia? Joke (or maybe not ...). But it turns out that the “Moscow” can, without entering the area of ​​operation of enemy aircraft, attack an aircraft carrier. And in order to avoid such a threat, we have to move away from the “Moscow”. So CVN-69 "Eisenhower" was forced to withdraw from the Mediterranean Sea in 2012, when the threat of the beginning of US bombings in Syria was hanging. The United States had to try to shift Bashar Assad in a different, longer way. And so far without success. And if it were not for the capabilities of our weapons, the meaning of the 2012 events of the year in the Mediterranean would have been completely incomprehensible. The maneuvers of the Russian and American fleets would be meaningless. And it is strange that a military policy specialist, a naval officer, does not understand this. Or he is grossly mistaken, claiming that the enemy has "superiority in the range of use of carrier-based aviation."

We go further. About "airstrikes up to 40 machines":

"Solving the task of fighting enemy surface ships, the carrier-based strike group is capable of striking deck aircraft consisting of up to 40 airplanes at a distance of 600 − 800 km and Tomahawk missiles at a distance of 500 − 600 km from the center of the warrant, having up to several dozens of such rockets. "


We’ll immediately clarify that F / A-18 Hornet fighters are used against ships of the Harpoon rocket (AGM / RGM / UGM-84 Harpoon) with a range of up to 280 km (the most long-range version). Tomahawks have a significantly longer range, but cannot be launched from F / A-18, only from ships. But the most interesting thing is that the anti-ship version of Tomahawk Anti-Ship Missile (TASM) was removed from service at the beginning of 2000's! That is, having mentioned the Tomahawks as a weapon against our cruisers, the doctor of military sciences was mistaken again. Only the “Harpoon” remained in service as long-range RCC, about which Sivkov did not even mention. It is worth adding that in the 2009 year, in view of the changing views on the value of long-range anti-ship missiles in the modern geopolitical setting, the US Navy initiated a program to develop a new long-range anti-ship missile made using the Stealth technology and was designated LRASM - Long Range Anti-Ship Missile. And initially, under this abbreviation, even two missiles were developed:

LRASM-A is a subsonic anti-ship missile with a range of up to 800 km based on a JASSM-ER aircraft missile. The LRASM-B is a supersonic anti-ship missile conceptually close to the Soviet Granite P-700.

LRASM-B would be a really serious rocket, since according to the project it should have a range of 1000 km. That is, it is an analogue of our Vulcan, created in Soviet times. However, it did not work out with its development and now only the subsonic version of the LRASM-A is being finalized. Its adoption is planned in 2018 year. How is it better than the decommissioned Tomahawk is not very clear, apparently, it is simply "invisible." It has become very popular with the US military - to call planes and rockets "invisible". There is no such thing for radiophysics. There is the concept of small EPR (EPR - effective scattering area, the ability of the object to reflect radio waves). The EPR strongly depends on the wavelength and an object invisible in one wave band can always be seen in another. And the American enthusiasm for stealth technology only made our radars more broadband ... But this applies only to the future rocket, but for now our cruisers are threatened by much weaker and quite visible "Harpoons" with a range of 150-280 km. And in order for them to reach our cruiser before the moment of its volley on the American AUG, they must be launched precisely from airplanes. Those, respectively, should be able to fly up to the “Moscow” on the launch distance of the “Harpoon”. And rocket ships with "Harpoons" and "Tomahawks", which are under the protection of "Nimitz", are completely out of work, due to the short range of their anti-ship missiles. Moscow will sink them without entering the zone of action of their weapons. Therefore, we discuss the option with the aircraft.

Can the entire wing of the Nimitz in full force attack Moscow at the same time? Theoretically, Nimitz-type aircraft carriers can carry up to 90 aircraft of various types. The wing is usually 45-48 fighters, the rest - the scouts, tankers and others. But these 48 cannot act simultaneously. Why? Because it is impossible to start them at the same time - the catapult is only 4 and preparation for launch takes considerable time. And at the same time, it is also impossible to prepare all aircraft for launching - there are special zones with limited capacity for this. In detail about the capabilities of aircraft carriers describes the article "EVALUATION OF THE COMBAT POWER OF AIRLINES: THE LAUNCH CYCLE". It specifically states that:

"... the Nimitz class aircraft carrier without interference for flight operations of all types using all launches can simultaneously hold on deck up to 2's links (8 machines), of which one can be in 5-minute readiness, and the rest are in readiness from 15-ti to 45-ti minutes. Using the elevator area and blocking the runway allows you to increase the number of machines in readiness to 20-ti, while ensuring a pair's 5-minute readiness. This figure is the maximum when the aircraft carrier is working on lifting aircraft intensity. This is the maximum number of machines in one run cycle. "


That is, no longer 48, but the entire 20 machines. But these aircraft 20 machines will launch at least 45 minutes. This is the duration of the start-up cycle, it can not be faster. And if he starts the second launch cycle, it will prevent taking on the aircraft that he released in the first one. Hornet can be in the air no more than 2,5 hours - its fuel is also limited. What does all of this mean? This means that the aircraft carrier can only attack 20-th aircraft, and the first launched aircraft will have to wait for the rest, circling over the aircraft carrier wasting precious fuel. Almost an hour until the whole group starts! And this significantly reduces the range of their flight. Almost double! Only the latter can immediately fly to the target to the maximum range. The first are forced to hang additional fuel tanks, then to be able to return. The author of this, much more reasoned article, concludes the opposite of what Sivkov does:

"The superiority of the Nimitz class ships over any other aircraft carriers of the world is indisputable. It is particularly pronounced in solving shock missions. Of the modern aircraft carriers, only the Nimitz can lift into the air a balanced strike force, which will include a strike squadron, a cover group and vehicles of support ... At the same time, the advertised prohibitive combat power of the US aircraft carriers turns out to be a myth. The stated in the characteristics of the aircraft wing 90 machines spend most of the time on the coast, I will In practice, the 20-second take-off interval turns out to be 5-minute in practice.The maximum volume of the raised air group is no more than 20 machines, or rather, one strike squadron with attached departure aids. , which means that it is impossible to use the full combat load. At least the first 6 vehicles in the launch cycle are forced to use outboard tanks to operate in conjunction with airplanes taking off late her, at the same range. From a tactical point of view, this means that the range of the strike connection can never reach its theoretical maximum, and the combat load will be at best half of the declared in the characteristics of the aircraft. "


If all this is brought into the framework of our confrontation with the Russian missile cruiser of the Moscow type, then it turns out that a group of maximum 20 aircraft can fly up to it. Moreover, the range of this group is much less than the maximum due to the launch cycle, during which the first aircraft spend their fuel. You can estimate the reduction of the range by about a third (by the ratio of the waiting time with the maximum time in flight). Then this group will fly to the “Moscow” after it makes a volley on the AUG. Return to this group will simply nowhere. Alternatively, it should be assumed that at the maximum range there is a group with a smaller number of aircraft - a maximum of 6. If we seriously consider the possibility of an aircraft carrier to attack the "Moscow", then this option will have to be chosen - only a small group of aircraft with additional fuel tanks have a chance to reach the cruiser at a distance over 700 km. That is, 4-6 airplanes that have one Harpoon on board (they can take 2 rockets as much as possible, but additional fuel tanks reduced this number to 1). This means that Moscow will have to repel the attack of all of the 6 missiles (launched from different sides to make it difficult to intercept). In this second case, an air defense of a cruiser, for which he is also famous, can quite easily handle a small number of missiles. But we will discuss the defensive capabilities of "Moscow" in more detail in the next part ...

WHAT IS "NIMITS" SUPPRESSING "MOSCOW"? PART 2

In the first part of the article, I noted two gross mistakes of the doctor of military sciences: the first is that our missile cruisers are threatened by long-range Tomahawk cruise missiles (the anti-ship version is out of service), the second is that the aircraft carrier is capable of delivering massive strikes of up to 40 aircraft machines (maximum 20 due to a long startup cycle). And there was a third mistake, the most important one - about "superiority in the range of use of carrier-based aviation." There are still some interesting details that need to be understood ... Sivkov was clearly wrong if only the fighter part of the Nimitz wing was taken into account. The F / A-18E / F Super Hornet fighter has a small combat radius of 720 km and the Moscow cruiser has every chance of approaching an aircraft carrier for a missile launch range (which is about 1000 km) without being subjected to a massive strike of these aircraft a small group of 6 planes was negotiated). But there is one detail previously unaccounted for - the aircraft carrier, besides these strike airplanes, carries several other types, among which there is also a very dangerous one for Moscow. We are talking about anti-submarine (!) Lockheed S-3 "Viking" aircraft. It looks very clumsy and completely harmless slug, designed to deal exclusively with enemy submarines. But he has one feature - a large combat radius. Its combat radius is 1530 km (with 4 × torpedoes Mk.46 and 60 hydroacoustic buoys). With additional tanks - up to 1700 km! It can carry up to 4 tons of weapons. Initially, it was not intended to attack surface targets, but the Americans still thought of making a special modification - S-3B, capable of carrying the Harpoon anti-ship missiles. 2 pieces on pylons. And it really gave the aircraft carrier "superiority in the range of use of carrier-based aircraft." Anti-submarine with long-range "Harpoon" becomes a wonderful attack aircraft and the most dangerous enemy for "Moscow" - he can attack her at a great distance from his aircraft carrier without entering the range of the air defense of the cruiser! This is the "longest hand" of the American AUG.


Anti-submarine S3 Viking


Although not only our doctor of military sciences, but the Americans themselves didn’t appreciate the Viking abilities very much - there were only one dozen of them on the aircraft carrier. Until 2009 year. In 2009, they were completely removed from service. Unique and truly useful aircraft produced the entire 187 units in the period from 1974 to 1978 years. Aged and removed. A worthy replacement was not found. And they were excellent scouts and even tankers ... After the Viking, the most long-range of deck-based aircraft was the Grumman F-14 Tomcat - its combat radius 926 km. But it was removed from service even earlier - in 2006 year! Tomkat is a good fighter-interceptor, he is the only aircraft capable of carrying an AIM-54A Phoenix long-range air-to-air missile. This rocket, worth 500 thousand dollars, is capable of hitting targets at a distance of 185 km, the most long-range missile of the Americans. Together with the resignation of Tomkata and the rocket became useless ... The US Air Force is degrading in front of his eyes in the hope of the newest F-35, which in reality is much worse than the models removed from service of American technology. But it is not about that. And about the fact that our military expert was greatly mistaken - now only Hornet, armed with strike aircraft, and all our arguments about the range of the aircraft carrier wing remain in force. That is, Sivkov's statement about the "superiority in range" of an aircraft carrier is absolutely erroneous.

"Nimitz" vs. "Moscow", an assessment of the real possibilities
PKR Harpoon under the Viking wing


And now we will continue our discussion of the most likely variant of the attack of “Moscow” by the aircraft carrier - these are 6 Hornet fighters at maximum range with additional fuel tanks. Can carry 6 missiles "Harpoon". There are other anti-ship missiles in Hornet’s arsenal, but much less powerful and long-range (AGM-65 Maverick, for example, has a range of only 30 km). In order to attack a cruiser without entering its air defense zone, it is the “Harpoon” with a range of 150-280km that is needed. The danger can only be another AGM-88 HARM - the American high-speed anti-radar missile. It can be used against the radar "Moscow" from a distance to 100 km. Without radar "Moscow" will be defenseless. And then her defeat even 6 Harpoons will be very likely. However, in order to launch this missile, American pilots will have to take a chance and enter the cruiser’s air defense zone - it is also approximately 100 km in range. And since the “Harpoons” have a significantly higher range, then the US pilots will still attack the “Harpoons” first. You can only assume a slightly more risky attack option - without additional fuel tanks, but with refueling in the air on the way back. Then there may be more missiles - 12 pieces. This is also not too much for an air defense cruiser. In addition, he will not be alone, let's not forget that we are talking about a warrant, where together with the "Moscow" there will be another couple of quite serious warships, with their own air defense weapons. But while we are discussing the possibilities of "Moscow" against the attack of the Harpoon missiles ...


Hornet with Harpoon and additional fuel tanks


Rocket "Harpoon" has a low speed - 0,6 mach and perfectly detects radar (if it is in direct visibility). The speed of the rocket is so small that it is lower than the speed of ordinary passenger aircraft, which, as shown story, easily strayed by the old air defense systems of Ukraine. And the fact that the size of the rocket is still smaller than the Boeing is unlikely to help it survive, especially since the air defense weapons of the cruiser Moskva are somewhat more perfect than the Ukrainian ones. The air defense of the cruiser includes 8 launchers of the C-300F long-range air defense missile systems, 2 launchers of the Osa-M near-line defense systems Osa-M, and 6 anti-aircraft guns AK-630. The naval version of the C-300 has a slightly smaller range than the ground, but still provides defense at a distance of up to 100 km (for 5В55РМ missiles - 75km). And although the complex can shoot down the anti-ship missiles, its main purpose is to keep the enemy’s planes closer. Against anti-ship missiles, it is not very effective, since the lower limit of height for the complex’s missiles is 25 meters, and modern missiles fly lower. The same "Harpoon" of the latest modifications flies at an altitude of 2-5 meters. "Osa-M" operates at a distance of up to 15 km and can already shoot down low-flying anti-ship missiles - for it the minimum target height is 5 meters. It is on her most likely that the task will be assigned to knock down the anti-ship missiles on long-range borders (10-15 km). Although the probability of defeat is again not absolute (experts estimate its effectiveness as 70%, that is, up to 30% RCC with massive attacks can break into the near zone of the ship’s anti-aircraft defense to the distance 2-3 km). And although the anti-aircraft missile complexes of the anti-ship missiles can be strayed, the last echelon of defense, which is the 6 of AK-630М installations, will do it most effectively. These are the 30-mm six-barreled automatic ship-mounted artillery AO-18, created under the direction of V. P. Griazev and A. G. Shipunova. The name "6" means 6 trunks, 30 - caliber. Unique weapon. This installation is remarkable in that it releases up to 5000 projectiles per minute. Range - to 4 km. Creates a steel cloud of projectiles in the path of the detected rocket. The installation is fully automatic, it is guided by the automated control system MP-123 "Vympel" on the target spotted by radars with the highest accuracy. Efficiency is the highest.


Battery AK-630М aboard Moscow


The western counterpart of this installation is the low-altitude barrage shipboard air defense / missile defense system “Goalkeeper” (Netherlands-USA), which incorporates 30-mm seven-barreled GAU-8 cannon with 4200 fire rate / min. In our publications, there are no examples of AK-630M effectiveness testing. But there are about the “Goalkeeper”:

“In April, the US Navy installed the Goalkeeper system on 1990 for the blockade of the Stoddard decommissioned destroyer and in August 1990 launched the test of this system against the anti-ship missile system in the US Point Pacific missile center. The system demonstrated the 100% result. the time of salvo launch of three Exocset missiles, three Harpoon missiles and three Vandal targets moving at a speed corresponding to 3M, they were all destroyed by the Goalkeeper system. However, the US Navy believed that the result was not 100% - because fragments of one of orazhonnyh missiles "Harpoon", continuing to move by inertia, hit the target ship. "


Our anti-aircraft complex is not inferior in its characteristics to the western one, rather surpasses it. And that means its effectiveness is not less. The likelihood that 6 "Harpoons" (or even 12) will overcome all three lines of defense of the cruiser is very low. Such low-speed targets like the Harpoon anti-ship missiles are fairly easy targets for all modern air defense systems. To overcome the defense of the cruiser could be several missiles from a very massive attack - a few dozen missiles. Then the reaction of anti-aircraft complexes and their automatic guidance could simply not be enough. It was precisely this situation that Konstantin Sivkov hoped for, arguing that the cruiser had no chance of surviving ... But such a situation is not possible in reality - the aircraft carrier will not be able to provide such a massive attack of the cruiser. In this expert was wrong. A dozen low-speed missiles "Moscow" reflect. And do not forget about escort ships. They will also take part in the destruction of missiles at the near line of defense. It is in our warrant that escort ships will play their part in defending the cruiser, but not as part of the American AUG - there they will be practically useless. Why? Because the Vulcan rocket is many times greater than the Harpoon in speed and this makes it practically invulnerable to air defense. Here it is worthwhile to evaluate the capabilities of the American ships to repel the attack of our “Volcanoes”. The picture will be completely different.

First, we note that the defense of American ships is significantly weaker than ours. This is confirmed by the experience of military actions that the US has been conducting for many years all over the world "for the sake of democracy." For example, the USS Navy frigate USS Stark (FFG-31) of the Oliver Hazard Perry type (project SCN 207 / 2081) 17 in May 1987 of the year, during the Iran-Iraq war, suffered heavy damage as a result of two Exocset missiles "AM.39, released by the Iraqi Mirage fighter F1. The frigate barely managed to keep afloat, 37 sailors died. The frigate as a means of air defense could use the Mk13 launcher (universal installation with one guide for launching Tartar, Standard SM-1, Garpun missiles) and the Mark 15 Phalanx CIWS anti-aircraft system, which is an 6-automatic gun. M61A1 with a caliber of 20 mm (rate of fire 3000 shots per minute). The Iraqi fighter was certainly spotted by radar, as was the launch of its missiles. But the reaction time was not enough to shoot down a pair of subsonic rockets. And our anti-ship missiles Vulkan, which fly at speed in 2,5, will not even be able to notice the speed of sound.

Of course, the aircraft carrier group includes ships with more powerful means. Americans are very proud of the latest Aegis Combat System - ACS. By this name is meant both the ship’s multifunctional combat information management system (BIUS) and the air defense missile system, which is controlled by this system. As the omniscient Wikipedia reports:

According to the US Navy website, as of November 2013, the United States had an 74 ship equipped with the Aegis system, of which 22 cruisers and 52 destroyer. The long-term naval naval program, which will be implemented in 2011 — 2041 fiscal years, provides for upgrading such ships to 84 under these systems. The main element of the system is the AN / SPY-1 radar of the A, B or D modifications with four passive phased antenna arrays of total the average radiated power of 32 — 58 kW and the peak power of 4 — 6 MW. It is capable of automatically searching, detecting, tracking 250 — 300 targets and targeting the most threatening of them before 18 SAMs. The decision to defeat the targets threatening the ship can be made automatically. Missiles can be launched from Mk 26 type inclined launch launchers (removed from service) and universal X-NUMX Mk vertical launch systems, located under the main deck of cruisers and destroyers used to locate the system.


The Ajis ADMS uses Standard missile 2 (SM-2) and more modern Standard missile 3 (SM-3) missiles. According to its capabilities, the system resembles our C-400 in the fleet version. Even the SM2 rocket is close in parameters to our 48H6 with a range of 150 km. However, Aegis is more focused on missile defense tasks - to intercept ballistic targets, that is, our strategic missiles. Or aerodynamic high-altitude targets, like airplanes. As for low-flying targets, that is, cruise missiles with a low profile of flight, the system is not very effective. And the problem here is purely physical - due to the curvature of the earth, the anti-ship missiles fall into the zone of direct visibility by the radar of the system already on the way to the target - at a distance of 30-35 km. Up to this point, they are just beyond the horizon and therefore not visible. And if the goal is high-speed, then the reaction of the system is very little time. If the anti-ship missile also maneuvers quickly, then the heavy long-range missiles behind it will simply not be stolen. Against anti-ship missiles are more effective short-range air defense missiles with small, but fast and maneuverable missiles. And, of course, anti-aircraft rapid-fire artillery systems - ZAK. We have an ideal weapon against cruise missiles is the "Shell-S", the Americans have no analogue ...

In general, the topic of the possibility of American AUG to repel an attack by our supersonic anti-ship missiles like "Granite" or "Vulcan" has become not just popular on the Internet, but also the subject of a whole information war. Here, for example, the Internet publication topwar.ru published an article by Oleg Kaptsov, “A blow from under the water. How strong are American AUGs?”. A remarkable and very informative article, which itself was a response to the article by A. Nikolsky, a certain “shipbuilding engineer”, “The Russian fleet goes under water.” He wrote Nikolsky in the spirit of the same Sivkov about the invincibility of the American fleet. And another engineer had to explain a lot of technical details to refute a bunch of false statements. Among them is the fact that "AUG air defense at the beginning of the 80-s, depending on the tactical situation, could have shot down the 70-120 of the Granit or X-22 missiles." Kaptsov explained in a very colorful and detailed way how deeply Nikolsky was mistaken. I will not give all the arguments of Kaptsov, but I will quote only one moment about the latest Aegis system:

"Aegis" even in theory is not able to provide simultaneous firing of hundreds of aerial targets. Multifunctional radar AN / SPY-1 is able to program autopilots up to 18 anti-aircraft missiles on the flight path of the trajectory and conduct simultaneous bombardment of air targets AN / SPG to 3 -62. The reality turned out to be even more terrible - the Orly Burke radars are grouped as follows: - course angles cover one radar; - protect the stern two; - in an ideal situation, strictly perpendicular to the side of the destroyer, in reflection of the air attack and all three SPG-62 can participate. As a result, Burke "in a real battle of the entire 1-2 guidance channel for anti-aircraft missiles when attacking from one direction. Duration of target illumination required for missile guidance is 1-2 seconds. Probability Destruction of a single missile target is considered to be within 0,6 ... 0,7.Further, until BIUS "Aegis" receives confirmation of the destruction of the target, while transmitting a new task to SPG-62, the radar will unfold and direct the beam to the indicated sky sector (for SPG-62 the change in azimuth and elevation angle occurs mechanically - soon st rotation 72 ° / sec) platform. It would seem that five to ten seconds for the whole process ... but, this is at that critical moment when the destroyer crew has less than half a minute left! And above the surface of the gray ocean, nearly cutting off the tops of the waves, three or four dozen supersonic rockets rush. "


Kaptsov considered a slightly different situation - the possibility of an attack by the American AUG of our submarine, armed with the PKR Granit, the younger brother of Vulkan. This situation is slightly different, but not too much. The fact is that the Russian grouping, headed by a cruiser of the type Moscow or Varyag, should almost certainly include a shock submarine. This is the case when the order members functionally complement each other. It must be said that, with all its advantages, the secrecy of the submarine is blind, that is, it does not have the ability to detect the enemy at long distances - under water it is difficult to do. She listens to the ocean with her acoustic systems and this allows her to detect ships over tens of kilometers, but Granit flies 700 km. That is, it needs external intelligence data to attack. You can somehow receive data from the satellite, but it is easier to get data from your closest ships while simultaneously hiding in their “shadows”, their sound of screws drowns out the noise from the submarine itself. That is, if we are talking about the attack of the American AUG, then the nuclear submarine in this attack may well take part - just stepping forward and hitting with its Granits at the same time as the volley of Moscow. And then the probability of survival of the aircraft carrier will be almost zero.

Here to the place to notice about another advantage of our anti-ship missiles to the American "Harpoons" except speed and range. This is their "intelligence". The homing device does not just stupidly track the target and directs a rocket at it, but jointly (!) With other missiles in the salvo, it distributes targets in the enemy’s warrant, transmits information about the detected targets to other missiles, and selects the attack tactics. They are like a pack of wolves pounding "prey." The tactics of attack provides that only one of the missiles can fly above the horizon, tracking targets and transmitting information to other missiles hidden behind the horizon line. Thus, all missiles except for one fly up to the AUG unnoticed and organize a simultaneous attack from different sides on different ships. On the approach to the goal of the rocket make quick maneuvers of deviation from air defense weapons. That is, "Granites" and "Volcanoes" attack very smoothly and slyly, as the pack predators like wolves do. The American "Harpoons" in this regard are very primitive and require external control by the wearer almost to the very end of the attack. This gives great opportunities for electronic warfare, up to control interception. This is another aspect that we do not consider due to the complexity of the topic ...


Anti-aircraft gun mount Phalanx


Lack of space does not allow to consider absolutely all aspects of the topic under discussion, besides not all the technical details we can know. But even a superficial analysis allows us to notice the general technical backwardness of the air defense systems of the US Navy, as well as the backwardness in anti-ship assets. Our rockets fly farther, faster and more intelligent. Our air defense systems are more developed and effective. All this together makes our 1164 missile carriers "aircraft carrier killers", their advantage in armament is indisputable. Although the Internet is full of "experts" who claim the opposite. The same Sivkov dedicated not one publication to this. In the article “The chances of the Russian missile cruiser hitting the American aircraft carrier compound are insignificant” even try to equate our cruiser “Moscow” with the American missile cruiser:

"Comparison of the performance characteristics of the American Ticondeurogus cruisers and destroyers of the Orly Burk-type URO with our ships shows that they are at least as good as the Russian 1164 cruiser and if they are inferior, then slightly the 1144 cruiser."


I wonder what kind of data the “expert” compared except for the displacement? The combat capabilities of ships need to be matched by the weapons they carry. And here not even the quantity is important, but the quality. Yes, there are more missiles on Tikonderoge. But they are qualitatively much worse than ours. "Harpoons" can not be compared with our "Volcanoes" and the same "Ticonderoga" simply does not fit the "Moscow" at a distance of launching their missiles. Even if there are a thousand of these missiles, it will not save her. Do not save her and air defense, the same system "Aegis". The most effective means against cruise missiles is a rapid-fire automatic gun. How many such guns have "Tikondery"? These are the 2 6-stem 20-mm Mk 15 Phalanx CIWS. The same Phalanx that could not bring down a couple of Iraqi "Exosets". Moscow has 6 much more powerful installations. And "Tikanderoga" has only 6 "Harpoons" against 16 "Volcanoes". All the power of Tikanderogi is a hundred Tomahawks designed for land use. How can you compare these ships? Tikonderoga, in comparison with Moscow, is just a barge loaded with rockets (perhaps it was supposed to be the idea of ​​an arsenal ship with a bunch of missiles, but without serious means of defense is very popular among Americans).

Much is seen in a completely different light, if one delves into the technical details that the doctor of military sciences should know better than any civilian analyst. However, judging by the number and intensity of passions in articles on this topic, it is unlikely that the expert wanted to convey to us some of his knowledge on this subject. It is rather about the formation of an appropriate public opinion. Profitable for our overseas "partner" who is stronger in information wars, but not in military technology.
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  1. +75
    4 June 2016 06: 18
    The article is a big plus - a very good, albeit not a sinless analysis.
    The article criticized by the author is one of the elements of liberal "care" about the fatherland, which should creep into souls like a snake and sow doubts in the minds.
    1. +42
      4 June 2016 06: 50
      I completely agree !!!!! and the analysis is very good. Thank!
      1. +17
        4 June 2016 08: 24
        Quote: Volga Cossack
        and the analysis is very good.
        Well, not quite. Say, in addition to the units listed by the author, the composition of the state AUG usually includes 1-2 multipurpose nuclear submarines. A serious enough threat ...
        Okay, I will not quibble - an article plus.
        1. +7
          4 June 2016 20: 17
          The nuclear submarines you mentioned are armed with the same harpoons with a range of 70-80 km, and even if you can get closer to the distance of the shot, several harpoons are simply not enough to defeat.
          1. -2
            6 June 2016 10: 36
            Moscow has almost nothing against submarines; a nuclear submarine can simply swim in a brazen one and torpedo it.
            1. +1
              6 June 2016 12: 53
              Moscow always walks in tandem with the BOD, which is imprisoned precisely for the fight against submarines.
              1. 0
                7 June 2016 15: 58
                Quote: JIaIIoTb
                Moscow always walks in tandem with the BOD, which is imprisoned precisely for the fight against submarines.

                Is it long ago that the RKR always walked with a BOD? I don’t remember such a Kuznetsov for my military services. Petr Ustinov Ushakov, Petr Ushakov Ustinov. And what Ustin Levchenko or Ustin Chabanenko I don’t remember, my friend
              2. +1
                7 June 2016 15: 58
                Quote: JIaIIoTb
                Moscow always walks in tandem with the BOD, which is imprisoned precisely for the fight against submarines.

                Is it long ago that the RKR always walked with a BOD? I don’t remember such a Kuznetsov for my military services. Petr Ustinov Ushakov, Petr Ushakov Ustinov. And what Ustin Levchenko or Ustin Chabanenko I don’t remember, my friend
            2. +1
              18 June 2016 16: 07
              Excuse me, dear, but I served on a similar cruiser named "Marshal Ustinov" and believe me, the ship has 2 torpedo tubes with five tubes and 2 RBUs ​​with ammunition load of about 100 bombs, as well as an anti-submarine helicopter.
        2. +1
          6 June 2016 19: 26
          Quote: Ami du peuple
          . Say, in addition to the units listed by the author, the staff of the USG AUG usually includes 1-2 multipurpose nuclear submarines. A serious enough threat ...

          /// well, the aviation component has come up to the Mediterranean squadron.
          Just a day after the U.S. Navy launched its first strikes from the Mediterranean, there were reports of a Tu-142 seen in the Syrian sky. This was reported by the news portal The Aviationist.

          The video, which allegedly was shot on 5 on June 2016 in Aleppo, shows a Russian anti-submarine reconnaissance aircraft, designated NATO-Bear-F - Bear-F. The conclusion about the type of aircraft was made on the basis of a barely visible radar under the fuselage and a magnetic anomaly detector located in the rear.

          The Aviationist notes that the “standard” Tu-95 bomber has already been used to carry out bombing attacks in Syria. However, if the information is confirmed, this will be the first case of the use of the Tu-142 in the Syrian conflict, which was created on the basis of the Tu-95.

          Mostly the Tu-142 is used to combat submarines and naval patrols. However, the Internet portal notes that this aircraft can probably also be used to determine the objectives of strike aircraft.

          At the same time, The Aviationist believes that, as a reconnaissance aircraft, the Tu-142 can also monitor the American aircraft carrier Harry Truman. Thus, the appearance of this aircraft in the sky over Syria may be Moscow’s response to the first air strikes from the US Navy in the Mediterranean region since 2003.

          Original InoTV news: https://russian.rt.com/inotv/2016-06-06/The-Aviationist-V-nebe-nad

          For what purpose?
          - "Flag designation" as some suggest
          - finding out the location of Harry (although I think it is known without the "Bear" to within a meter ...)
          - or opening of 3,14

          It’s interesting what AUGomani will now say ... laughing

      2. +2
        4 June 2016 11: 19
        Nimitz v. Moscow, assessment of real opportunities

        Of course I apologize, but the comparison is absolutely idiotic and not real! The author, are you in kindergarten or something you didn’t intend to write ???
        The aircraft carrier never goes alone, as it is an integral part of the tactical ocean group. And the cruiser "Moskva" is a 1st rank combat ship unit, which was built in the USSR according to the doctrine of the coast guard fleet. If you, the author, do not understand this, then all your analytics, even in kindergarten, are not needed by anyone! IMHO. Yours faithfully hi
        And yet, the article has too many bukafs, and the point is to hang noodles that with the help of some cruisers you can put all of them with cancer. Bullshit. So they thought in the era of battleships and battleships, until carrier-based aircraft sent most of them to the bottom! Article bold MINUS. Teach the author the history of the use of carrier-based aviation and the tactics of its application.
        1. +34
          4 June 2016 12: 37
          Konstantin Sivkov? This citizen for me as a political expert died heroically - forever, like a miner after in October 2015, expertly in a "military doctoral" way, he arranged the entry of troops into Syria.
          Not only as a politician, but also as a military analyst after such an "analysis" he is simply nobody and his name is nothing,
          And this is not taking into account the simple fact that a citizen "military Russian expert" is actually criticizing his own supreme one a week after Putin's speech at the UN and the introduction of troops into Syria, he will speak at the CNN with the BBC, and it will be ideal for the agenda:
          1. +11
            4 June 2016 22: 53
            I didn’t even look at this idiot ...
            Russia does not fight with the "partisans", but closes the bottlenecks of the Syrian army, which, by the way, is at war with the army, in fact - what the hell are "partisans" when there is a FRONT ?!
        2. +10
          4 June 2016 15: 50
          So they thought in the era of battleships and battleships, until carrier-based aircraft sent most of them to the bottom! Article bold MINUS. Teach the author the history of the use of carrier-based aviation and the tactics of its application.
          It’s you, a formidable critic, who poorly taught the materiel of MODERN ships.
          Aviation dominated the sea just after the "battleship era". When on the fly 200-300 aircraft from 8-10 aircraft carriers, some Yamato could oppose 20 rapid-fire machines ...
          With modern means of developing missile technology, which have significantly increased the capabilities of air defense, American aviation can cause at least some harm to our surface ship only with very great luck.
          And drowning without the use of torpedoes is generally almost impossible. Even using nuclear weapons.
          1. +3
            6 June 2016 16: 18
            As for light flooding. Once the Americans conducted vigorous tests on the Japanese trophy battleship Nagato. A bomb drop nearby could not cause fatal damage. At the same time, the ship retained combat effectiveness. It was possible to drown only by laying a charge under the bottom.
          2. +1
            9 June 2016 09: 47
            Quote: Real Stalinist
            With modern means of developing missile technology, which have significantly increased the capabilities of air defense, American aviation can cause at least some harm to our surface ship only with very great luck.
            And drowning without the use of torpedoes is generally almost impossible. Even using nuclear weapons.

            Where did you get this from, have you ever been on a ship of the Russian Navy or served.
          3. -1
            9 June 2016 09: 47
            Quote: Real Stalinist
            With modern means of developing missile technology, which have significantly increased the capabilities of air defense, American aviation can cause at least some harm to our surface ship only with very great luck.
            And drowning without the use of torpedoes is generally almost impossible. Even using nuclear weapons.

            Where did you get this from, have you ever been on a ship of the Russian Navy or served.
        3. +10
          4 June 2016 19: 23
          You, along the way, due to the fact that "too many bukaf" did not read the article, but decided to comment, in vain.
        4. 0
          4 June 2016 20: 19
          Prove your point or will we take your word for it?
        5. +3
          5 June 2016 19: 00
          Minus. About pussy and kindergarten - this is a reference to the complexes of the author's comment. Those who developed anti-ship missile systems in the USSR clearly didn’t have a lot of soup in the field of tactics and strategy of possible sea clashes, in contrast to the Divannoexerds. Our complexes, with ARMORED, twice supersonic, actively maneuvering, "flock" anti-ship missiles, with warheads from half a ton are hell. Let us recall the results of the hit of the Argentine exoset with a failed warhead in the Falklands (Malvinas). Let's not forget about satellite targeting.
          1. +2
            6 June 2016 12: 54
            Quote: Bogdarin
            Do not forget about satellite target designation.

            Yes, it’s practically not. Most are out of order. Have you seen the reconnaissance satellite? US-A is a hefty fool with a reactor weighing almost 4 tons. Huge power on transceiver surfaces, low orbit within reach of SM-3.
            There are still mid-orbital passive US-Ps, smaller than 3,3 tons by weight, but not by size.
        6. -5
          5 June 2016 19: 48
          Quote: GSH-18
          An aircraft carrier never walks alone

          Well, why doesn’t he walk ... He walks when necessary. If you need to deceive the enemy.
        7. +1
          11 May 2017 00: 21
          Little but ...
          In an era of triumph of aircraft carriers, there were no anti-ship missiles and air defense systems.
          We can logically (conditionally) attribute these distant RCCs to aviation (unmanned)
          And modern air defense systems to fighter jets.
          So, the alignment is now somewhat different.
          The main problem is target designation.
          I do not know how this problem is being solved to this day, but the United States in this regard has carrier-based AWACS.
          So far, we have only the Ka-31 AWACS helicopter with a target detection radius of 250 km, which is almost two less than the E2C-Hokai.
          I assume that these devices are quite vulnerable to air defense systems.
          But at the moment, the means of destruction are such that the one who first can detect and attack the target comes to the fore.
          In this regard, the rather cumbersome connection of the AUG ships does not look very good.
          Yes, and the “New Year tree” in the middle of the ocean in the form of E2C is a fairly unmasking factor.
      3. +2
        7 June 2016 15: 55
        Quote: Volga Cossack
        I completely agree !!!!! and the analysis is very good. Thank!

        For the author’s attempt, of course, + but to write about Varyag or Ustinov about Moscow, you need to at least talk to a couple of officers with warheads 2,5,7 and then blurt out the article. And after that write an opus. Analysis based on open data 10 percent. fidelity. I’m telling you as the current officer of the Navy
      4. +1
        7 June 2016 15: 55
        Quote: Volga Cossack
        I completely agree !!!!! and the analysis is very good. Thank!

        For the author’s attempt, of course, + but to write about Varyag or Ustinov about Moscow, you need to at least talk to a couple of officers with warheads 2,5,7 and then blurt out the article. And after that write an opus. Analysis based on open data 10 percent. fidelity. I’m telling you as the current officer of the Navy
      5. +1
        7 June 2016 16: 07
        Quote: Volga Cossack
        I completely agree !!!!! and the analysis is very good. Thank!

        The analysis is weak because the author did not take the real experience of the sailors serving on these ships and, like no one else, know their flaws and potential. Try well done but the reliability is low
      6. +1
        7 June 2016 16: 07
        Quote: Volga Cossack
        I completely agree !!!!! and the analysis is very good. Thank!

        The analysis is weak because the author did not take the real experience of the sailors serving on these ships and, like no one else, know their flaws and potential. Try well done but the reliability is low
    2. +1
      4 June 2016 08: 26
      Quote: armored optimist
      The article is a big plus - a very good, albeit not a sinless analysis.

      Not sinful? Wikipedia links in this analysis? You write nonsense. Especially touches:
      A supersonic rocket weighing 5 tons and an official range of 700 km (real can be more)

      And why not added "and maybe more" in this case?
      F / A-18 Hornet (or F / A-18E / F Super Hornet) with a combat radius of 726 km.

      So, the Khornetov have not been on aircraft carriers for a long time, only the SuperKhornet having a refueling system in the air, which the RCC does not and cannot have. Well, let's say a combat radius of 726km.
      And the fact that the cruiser missiles have a range of up to 700 km (officially) and this practically coincides with the combat radius of the Hornet!

      It's just scary. The author, and the notorious Hornet will be the target of an air gun to fire or ram like a kamikaze? So SLAM-ER has a launch range of more than 200 km. there will be no need for 700 km. to fly, just 500 is enough ...
      Further, the same "faulty" scales ...
      1. +8
        4 June 2016 08: 48
        With a maximum speed of 1,8M afterburner, as well as at subsonic speed. Opposite the Volcanoes with 2,5M and 2M near the surface. And then the question is what else to do, or to catch missiles with not very high chances, or to score anything and break through to the cruiser, leaving the aircraft carrier with one Aegis.

        Quote: Leto
        So SLAM-ER has a launch range of more than 200 km.

        The AGM-84H SLAM-ER has a range of 270 km, but is essentially a highly modernized harpoon with subsonic speed.
        1. +3
          4 June 2016 19: 48
          Quote: kugelblitz
          With maximum speed on the afterburner 1,8М


          /// and meanwhile, T-half a hundred closer to fU22 are selected ... :)))))))))))
          Surprise: Russia began a “run-in” in the sky over the Crimea of ​​the latest T-50 fighter

          In Crimea, the latest Russian fifth-generation T-50 fighter jets are running around. This was announced in his blog by the head of the Crimean NTV bureau Oleg Kryuchkov.

          Now T-50 is being tested at the Chaud military training ground near Feodosia.

          Subscribe to the PolitNavigator news on Telegram, Facebook, Odnoklassniki or Vkontakte

          “Surprise for the neighbors! Several PAX-2, fifth-generation fighter-bombers T-50 in the Crimean sky, ”wrote Kryuchkov.

          http://www.politnavigator.net/syurpriz-rossiya-nachala-obkatku-v-nebe-nad-krymom
          -novejjshego-istrebitelya-t-50.html
          1. +3
            5 June 2016 07: 42
            So what ? Will the T-50 be based on the "Moscow" or will it cover it in the ocean? Do not be distracted from the subject of discussion
      2. +15
        4 June 2016 09: 08
        I liked the pearl the author himself claims that he doesn’t have performance data on the 630 ak, but it is not inferior to the goalkeeper, and even surpasses. Logic class
        1. +2
          4 June 2016 22: 57
          I myself found flaws in the article and pointed them out.
          But in this case, the correct assumption is that Russia is a leader in anti-aircraft systems.
      3. +13
        4 June 2016 11: 13
        Quote: Leto
        So SLAM-ER has a launch range of more than 200 km. there will be no need for 700 km.

        There are Vulcan missiles in Moscow, the range of which is 1000 km. And these 200 km will help you a lot, which will add to the range (and not the maximum) of the squadron?
        1. +16
          4 June 2016 11: 39
          Quote: NEXUS
          There are Vulcan missiles in Moscow with a range of 1000 km.

          Dear NEXUS, imagine that you are on the Moskva somewhere in the Pacific Ocean ... Yes, you have missiles with a firing range of 1000 km (P-1000 volcano), but you cannot see beyond the horizon! This is approximately 20-25 km from the cruiser height. Well, where are you going to shoot these missiles without target designation ???
          These cruisers are effective in the area of ​​coastal infrastructure. In the ocean zone, these are targets for AUGs, which always have AWACS aircraft on their aircraft carriers, which carry out air control of a zone with a radius of more than 1000 km and give target designation to the attacking air group according to YOU. And do not hope to destroy these aircraft you will not succeed. Each time they come to a new frontier of attack, which is also much lower than your radio horizon. AUG in the Pacific is like a needle in a haystack and finding it without carrier-based aviation and other means of control is not easy. Something like that. request
          1. +15
            4 June 2016 11: 50
            Quote: GSH-18
            Dear NEXUS, imagine that you are on the Moskva somewhere in the Pacific Ocean ... Yes, you have missiles with a firing range of 1000 km (P-1000 volcano), but you cannot see beyond the horizon!

            You, dear GS-18, have not taken into account one detail - there are always two or three nuclear submarines in the AUG as well as in the warrant. Why do you think that Moscow cannot receive target designations from its MAPL? At the same time, it seems to me that in such a confrontation of the warrant with AUG, the result will be decided precisely under water in the first place.
            At the same time, it must be remembered that since the time of the union, our carrier, so to speak, has been attached to each aircraft carrier, which tracked all its movements, and therefore, I believe that getting target designations will not be difficult. hi
            1. -4
              4 June 2016 12: 26
              Quote: NEXUS
              You, dear GS-18, have not taken into account one detail - there are always two or three nuclear submarines in the AUG as well as in the warrant. Why do you think that Moscow cannot receive target designations from its MAPL?

              There are two reasons for this:
              Firstly, there are much more aircraft even on one AUG aircraft carrier than submarines in any of the warring warrants, which means that the effectiveness of on-line control (on-line by the fact that the targets are static) in aviation performance is much higher than in the submarine version .
              Secondly, the approach time to the attack range of an attack air group is incommensurably less than that of a submarine.
              1. +6
                6 June 2016 01: 44
                The aircraft carrier group is visible from the satellite at a glance. This time. In the center of the Pacific Ocean, no one will fight the AUG with the help of the cruiser "Ioskva" - that's two. And in case of war, an aircraft carrier can live on our shores or in Mediterranean for minutes. These are three. And why do you write the word "aircraft carrier" with a capital letter - do you respect it very much?
            2. +5
              4 June 2016 12: 31
              Quote: NEXUS
              At the same time, it must be remembered that since the time of the union, our aircraft, so to speak, was attached to each aircraft carrier, which tracked all its movements.

              This is not a panacea. As a submarine monitors AUG in peacetime, so AUG aviation constantly works out its search and destruction — this is natural. This submarine (if it is there) is the No. 1 target for aviation and the AUG PLO.
              1. +3
                4 June 2016 12: 35
                Quote: GSH-18
                This submarine (if it is there) is the No. 1 target for aviation and the AUG PLO.

                And I suppose more than one submarine. And this raises the question of whether our submarines will be able to detect or not. At the same time, we do not forget that our submarines also have Granites and they are quite capable of working out the AUG.
                1. +1
                  4 June 2016 12: 55
                  Quote: NEXUS
                  And then the question arises as to whether our submarines will be able to detect or not.

                  They can. The time factor is on their side. Our submarine can be attached to the AUG as a nanny, but it is impossible to constantly have a corresponding ship group at a sufficient distance. We simply do not have such quantity of ships with sufficient "autonomy". And all of the Americanoses' aircraft carriers and submarines are now atomic, that is, they were originally designed to control the oceanic zone of the theater of war. They have given up diesel engines a long time ago.
                  1. +2
                    4 June 2016 12: 57
                    Quote: GSH-18
                    Our submarine can stick to AUG as a nanny, but you cannot constantly have an appropriate ship group at a sufficient distance.

                    In general, I was talking about obtaining target designation for the Volcanoes by a group of our nuclear submarines, "nannies" tied to the AUG.
                    1. 0
                      4 June 2016 13: 13
                      Quote: NEXUS
                      In general, I was talking about obtaining target designation for the Volcanoes by a group of our nuclear submarines, "nannies" tied to the AUG.

                      Look, air defense and PLO AUG are network-centric, that is, the reaction time is record low. The network-centric system of the average AUG has an overload parameter in the region of 200 conventional anti-ship missiles and 70-80 prospective ones. This means that in order to inflict unacceptable damage in a massive salvo on the AUG, there must be at least 70 P-1000 pieces in a combat situation when the AUG is bristling and its aircraft is operating in maximum rotation mode. Estimate, what is the percentage of success of the approach to the distance of launching anti-ship missiles for each of the "nannies"? In addition, if this is our ship group, then it must still have time to approach the P-1000 launch range before the "nannies" are calculated and sunk.
                    2. +2
                      4 June 2016 13: 33
                      Quote: NEXUS
                      In general, I was talking about obtaining target designation for the Volcanoes by a group of our nuclear submarines, "nannies" tied to the AUG.

                      In any AUG, there are always submarine hunters. For example, such sickly ones as Sivulf for example .. Thank God that they are very expensive and because of this there are not so many of them. Otherwise, our nuclear submarines would have major problems. Amerikoses also love to sculpt "nannies" for complex sea targets.
                      1. +6
                        4 June 2016 14: 35
                        Quote: GSH-18
                        For example, such sickly as Sivulf for example ..

                        Sivulfs are not used with AUG escort. They are transferred to special forces and are used only in special operations.
                      2. +1
                        4 June 2016 20: 43
                        Quote: NEXUS
                        Quote: GSH-18
                        For example, such sickly as Sivulf for example ..

                        Sivulfs are not used with AUG escort. They are transferred to special forces and are used only in special operations.

                        Rest assured, a lot will change in wartime. And besides the Sivulfs, they have enough suitable submarines. Do you understand what's the matter, with all our bravado and pride after Syria, our fleet, in particular, has not even grown to the level of the USSR Navy, and the Americans haven’t been idle for 25 years, there are new atomic aircraft carriers sculpting .. You think they are so stupid, what is the "inefficient and obsolete sea trough" building? I strongly doubt that. They have extensive experience in using AUG (World War II, for example, in the Pacific Ocean, where we have not fought at all), and we still do not have a single Aircraft Carrier! India and China already have them. And we keep telling ourselves fairy tales about American traps on floating target barges, and how we will famously defeat them with a smaller, outdated fleet, in the ocean without air cover and target designation! wassat The beauty! Straight than skaklov with their heroism reminds lol
                      3. +4
                        4 June 2016 23: 05
                        Quote: GSH-18
                        in particular, our fleet has not even reached the level of the Soviet Navy,

                        Did I really say that he’s grown up? He’s at least 30 years old to grow up to the level of the USSR fleets. The Black Sea Fleet has just begun to revive. The same flagship Moscow will celebrate 40 years soon. Things are better but not much in the Baltic. I won’t talk about Pacific Fleet and North, but there still need a lot of new ships of different ranks.
                        Quote: GSH-18
                        and we still do not have a single aircraft carrier!

                        In order to start building aircraft carriers, we first need to build the appropriate shipyards, escort and support vessels, and bases where they could be kept, at least.
                        Quote: GSH-18
                        And we are telling ourselves tales about American scumbags on floating barges, and how we will famously defeat them with a smaller, obsolete fleet in the ocean without air cover and target designation!

                        The situation in the article is not real in essence and not concrete in principle ... but at the same time, in our conversation I wanted to convey to you one thought ... despite the fact that the fleet only comes out of a coma, it is able to bite and fulfill the tasks. It is clear that we wouldn’t want that power, but the ships and submarines are under construction, new projects are coming ... and now, in essence, we are working for the future of our ocean fleets, and not the present. hi
                      4. +2
                        6 June 2016 11: 12
                        Well, where do we use Aviki? In the Baltic or in the Black Sea?
                        90% of the area наших Aircraft carriers are redundant.
                      5. +1
                        6 June 2016 09: 38
                        Brother, the whole point is that: 1. The avion-carrying group in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, like any other ocean, does not pose any danger to the coastal infrastructure. 2. In order to track the AUG back in the days of the USSR, "peaceful minesweepers" (research vessels) were created that hung around the AUG and tracked all their maneuvers.
                        Based on the foregoing, during the database, our cruiser will always know where the AUG is located, and if necessary, its destruction will be pulled to a rendezvous point.
                  2. +1
                    6 June 2016 11: 09
                    the warrant consists not only of nuclear carriers and cruisers
                    and other ships need refueling, however, and besides fuel, much more is needed for ships, especially an aircraft carrier. Therefore, AUG is constantly supplied with cargo ships.
                  3. +1
                    11 May 2017 00: 29
                    The carriers are atomic, but the guard ships are not atomic. And the autonomy of this aircraft carrier is almost no more than a conventional ship.
                    A nuclear reactor is there only because of the production of steam for catapults.
                2. 0
                  4 June 2016 13: 03
                  Quote: NEXUS
                  At the same time, we do not forget that our submarines also have Granites and they themselves are capable of working out the AUG.

                  Again, the famous question of target designation without carrier-based aviation in the ocean zone arises. The fact is that American strategists, realizing that we can’t find them from the air, are plotting in the form of various hydro-simulators of AUG noise, etc. So the reliability of target designation from our submarines raises questions request
                  Like it or not, but in the end we have to if you want, don't want to build the 1-2 nuclear-powered aircraft carrier.
                  1. +2
                    4 June 2016 13: 14
                    Quote: GSH-18
                    Again, the famous question of target designation without carrier-based aviation in the ocean zone arises.

                    For the Granites, a group of Legend satellites previously hung. Now they are going to run Liana to replace them.





                    http://rusvesna.su/future/1424042635
                    1. +3
                      4 June 2016 13: 31
                      Quote: kugelblitz
                      Now they are going to run Liana to replace them.

                      ... here - when it will be not in a dream, but in reality ...
                      Vott ... then YES! And we will be cool excessively! bully
                      God grant - to live!
                    2. 0
                      4 June 2016 13: 39
                      Quote: kugelblitz
                      For the Granites, a group of Legend satellites previously hung. Now they are going to run Liana to replace them.

                      Dear, I already wrote about this and will repeat again. Satellite target designation for static marine targets is NOT EFFECTIVE. In addition, wartime satellite constellations are goals number 1 and it is not possible to really count on their help. Our ship connections in far sea zone must have their own means of control and target designation, comparable with the capabilities of AUG. At the moment, we do not have such funds.
                      1. +2
                        4 June 2016 23: 03
                        Well, strictly speaking, all that Vulcan needs is that he is "told" that the target is "somewhere in - he is there" - so that he can go to the desired REGION and find ships with his "head". Moreover, in the "flock" this will be done by one of the rockets from the ALTITUDE, i.e. at a relatively long distance. In general, + -30 km, for example, the Volcano will be fine.
                      2. 0
                        5 June 2016 10: 35
                        > Satellite target designation for static naval targets is NON-EFFECTIVE. In addition, satellite constellations in wartime are targets # 1 and it is not possible to really count on their help.

                        an American in space has so many expensive satellites that they will tear his mouth to anyone who tries to attack them. Space will be the next medium of military operations in the event of war, which means that this space group will partially benefit.
                  2. +1
                    4 June 2016 13: 27
                    Quote: GSH-18
                    Like it or not, but in the end we have to if you want, don't want to build the 1-2 nuclear-powered aircraft carrier.

                    ...for what purpose? laughing

                    For me, based on the sovereignty of Russia, the first thing is a self-sufficient space grouping, and the second is the BPCR (ballistic anti-ship missiles) with planning hypersonic warheads.

                    Well, rather than from the theory of transcorps (according to a new-fangled theory - transnational corporations are taking over the world, with which the Russian Federation and China are in the same harness, and the USA is pouring off with satellites) - 4-6 AUG itself:
                    1. 2-AUG for the protection-defense of the NOC (New Nicaraguan Canal), although there are enough Mistral-class helicopter carriers
                    2. 2-AUG to reconcile the remnants of US hegemony and newly acquired colonies.

                    More information about the basics of transcorp - http://topru.org/41299/nespravedlivyj-mir-transkorpov-i-mesto-rossii-v-nyom/
                  3. +4
                    4 June 2016 16: 11
                    Quote: GSH-18
                    Like it or not, but in the end we have to if you want, don't want to build the 1-2 nuclear-powered aircraft carrier.

                    But who argues that? But first, it is necessary to strengthen the coastal zone with corvettes and various RTOs ... after building frigates, for example, project 22350, and in large quantities that will replace Sarycham. After that, building 2-5 Leader arsenals .. .and only after that start building aircraft carriers. Only in this order is it reasonable to build aircraft carriers. But do not forget about supply and support ships, as well as AWACS aircraft (preferably A-100, or at least A-50U at least).
                    At the same time, it would be nice to develop a project of a destroyer class ship (of 6000-9000 tons, capable of carrying Zircon missiles in a compartment with Caliber-NK).
                    And of course, the speedy completion of the MAPL construction of the Ash-M project, and the laying of the Huskies MAPL with the same Zircons on board.
                    1. +6
                      4 June 2016 18: 14
                      Quote: NEXUS
                      Only in this order there is meaningfulness to build aircraft carriers


                      Or maybe it is necessary to start building aircraft carriers with moorings? Until now, they are not on the SF nor on the Pacific Fleet
                      1. +2
                        4 June 2016 18: 48
                        Quote: Silhouette
                        Or maybe it is necessary to start building aircraft carriers with moorings? Until now, they are not on the SF nor on the Pacific Fleet

                        And with shipyards on which to build them.
                      2. +2
                        4 June 2016 23: 06
                        Actually, everything is done in turn.
                        Shipyards and the like ... so far building corvettes and frigates ... Which are needed for ... a lot of things - from fulfilling current goals, to working out technologies and systems that will move into "big" ships. Well, as a retinue for future cruisers, of course.
                        Now, I read, the "Leaders" have already been approved and will soon be laid down - this is a great event for the Russian Navy ...
                        And so we get to the aircraft carriers. 15 years later ..
                        So what to do? The fleet is a very inert thing.
                    2. +2
                      4 June 2016 20: 49
                      Quote: NEXUS
                      But who argues that? But first, it is necessary to strengthen the coastal zone with corvettes and various RTOs.

                      With all this your post I completely agree. And with both hands FOR! drinks
            3. +1
              4 June 2016 22: 59
              a little pulled.
              Let's hope that the RCC satellite guidance system is being restored or, who knows, can be quietly restored even in the most interesting parts of the oceans for us.
              1. +1
                5 June 2016 09: 10
                We hope that they will finish the over-the-horizon radars.
            4. +5
              4 June 2016 23: 34
              Quote: NEXUS
              our nuclear submarine was attached, which tracked all its movements. Therefore, I believe that getting target designations will not be difficult. hi


              Sorry. but this is complete nonsense.
              If there was always a gunner substrate, no one in the Soviet Union would ever create the Legend space program.

              For the submarine in the visibility zone of the AUG (visual, radar) - has no chance of survival in a combat situation.
              Exit to the radio channel - and after 5 minutes - it will be inundated with New Asroks from the guard ships.
              Exit to the active radar search - and again Asroki along with helicopters in 5 minutes. For a radar submarine with a range of more than 10 km is not threatened.


              You can still say more.
              1000km - rocket. about which the "author-idiot" writes - could only work with the legend at such ranges. The legend is long gone. 1000 kilometers is almost a ballistic trajectory. With access to heights of 25-30 kilometers.
              And what's the use of it?
              She will be seen over 300-400 kilometers. From such a distance - they will shoot everything.

              And the most important thing in ship’s air defense is not pipisky in the form of several SAMs, and ZAK.
              The number of independent guidance channels of these same air defense systems and air defense systems.
              Looking at a photo of Moscow, we understand that there are not so many independent channels. And the number of simultaneously fired missiles is small.
              And since there is nothing reminiscent of Aegis in our fleet - with the ability to work in a single system and automatically distribute targets among ships and their launchers - there is no question of a single systematic multi-ship defense.
              the author is an illiterate doodle!
              Wikipedist his mother ...
              1. +1
                4 June 2016 23: 50
                Quote: mav1971
                If there was always a substrate-gunner

                Our submarines were escorted by the carrier group in the days of the USSR and now. What’s the point with the gunner? Such submarines were not intended to be used as a target, but to track the actions of the ASG, reconnaissance and quiet escort. At the same time, the Union always knew where the adversary’s aircraft carrier was. About target designation with our submarines, I gave as an example, nothing more.
                Quote: mav1971
                The Soviet Union would never have created the Legend space program.

                Now they are trying to create the ICRC Liana ... God forbid they will.
                I repeat, the project 1164 cruisers will soon be under 40, and by and large they have passed their finest hour. They need a replacement and this is obvious given the new threats, tasks and doctrines with the appropriate arsenal, radars, etc.
                1. +2
                  4 June 2016 23: 59
                  Quote: NEXUS
                  Such nuclear submarines were not assigned for guidance, but to track the actions of the AUG, reconnaissance and quiet escort

                  Well, the submarine cannot follow the fast moving AUG. More precisely, it can follow, but it will “yell” at the whole ocean, without hearing anything. Those. such a nuclear submarine will be super-densely guarded by the PLO AUG and will crash it at the very beginning, moreover, the first one. The silent speed of the Soviet nuclear submarines is about 9-12 knots (and no matter how much I get excited), the most modern Ash type seems to have 20 knots, but all the same, this is not enough to quietly accompany the AUG.
                  1. +2
                    5 June 2016 00: 03
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    More precisely, it can follow, but it will “yell” at the whole ocean, without hearing anything.

                    That's right ... only the AUG does not "break" at a speed of 30 knots across the seas and oceans.
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    bang it at the very beginning, and - the first.

                    I repeat, I talked about obtaining target designation, while considering such a turn as an option. It is clear that as soon as the submarine gives the coordinates, it is not a tenant.
                  2. +2
                    5 June 2016 00: 15
                    If there were ONE atomic aircraft carrier ... he would be sailing across the ocean at a speed of 30 knots.
                    But his retinue is quite a "motor ship" and has much more modest cruising.
                    1. 0
                      6 June 2016 11: 17
                      I wouldn’t be joking for a long time.
                      running at 30 knots is still that joy.
                  3. +5
                    6 June 2016 02: 31
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Well, the submarine cannot follow the fast moving AUG. More precisely, it can follow, but it will “yell” at the whole ocean, without hearing anything. Those. such a nuclear submarine will be super-densely guarded by the PLO AUG and will crash it at the very beginning, moreover, the first one. The silent speed of the Soviet nuclear submarines is about 9-12 knots (and no matter how much I get excited), the most modern Ash type seems to have 20 knots, but all the same, this is not enough to quietly accompany the AUG.


                    Let me not agree with you, dear Andrei from Chelyabinsk.

                    Information for consideration:
                    I looked, a helicopter was lifted from the left frigate, flew away, dropped a black box on the guard ship and flew on. A sonar is working behind the aircraft carrier, we are in the shadow zone. Scary, think or train? It's time down, the frigate on the left, the helicopter, the AUS turned and increased the course. Immersion, depth 40 meters. We follow the warrant, but under water, the same course as the AUG, depth 290, speed 30, and they are 27. A steady contact with the main target is established. It’s better not to think about speed and the ocean, but it’s good to understand what to do if the wheels stick or the water starts to flow. The distance to the aircraft carrier is 80 cab, the speed of the boat is 32 knots. I begin to smoothly increase the distance and see in what order the target disappears - broadband noise and shaft-lobed characteristics, then the main discrete components for 120 cable, the main DS far beyond 130. Lost contact. While chasing the result, they turned in the opposite direction. I follow to the sector of probable finding the target, the contact is restored. Now for the remaining 6 hours we have nowhere to rush. We accompany the target at 30 knots, the aircraft carrier does not maneuver, which means his boat is sailing at the same speed. Prepared radio for transmission, pop up again. Sent and fly again.
                    The fifth, sixth day went, the team fell down. We were not asked restrictions on the tracking area, we accompany without restrictions. Around focused faces. No unnecessary conversations, no comments and no doubts. We follow, prepare the radio, prepare the position of proactive safe ascent for transmission, transmit, catch up again and transmit every 8 hours. So far, on the seventh day, we did not receive an RDO to stop tracking.


                    Our submarine: project 671RTM
                    Source: Dudko V.Ya. Blessing 2. Friend, Great Ocean! Moscow 2014 .-- 150 p., Silt
                    The book is online.

                    So, I would not be so categorical about the possibility of tracking submarines for AUG at high speeds.

                    PS The Americans did not find the boat.

                    1. The comment was deleted.
                    2. +2
                      6 June 2016 02: 58
                      In addition to my previous post, another quote from the book by V.Ya. Dudko
                      04.04. 1983, at 03.00 a group target was discovered at SCAT SCAT, classified as a detachment of warships. In the future, the commander approved the final classification - amg "ENTERPRISE".
                      An hour later at 4.10. the metrist reported the detection of the AN / BPS-9 and AN / SPS-10 radars from one direction. We took two bearings and determined the area of ​​the target. Analyzing the statistics collected by the automatic control system during the period of quiet maneuvering in the area, we came to the conclusion that as part of the AMG warrant, there is a multi-purpose submarine with a repeater ship, which we constantly conducted according to the RR data. The second target was classified - a Los Angeles type plaza on a 2600 bearing
                      Extract from the AUS magazine: “The American submarine at 8.15 and at 8.45 on bearing 800 discovered the Soviet square. Reported to the commander of the compound. In AUS, the contact was considered erroneous, and the report was ignored. ”
                      We went to the tracking position and stood in the revealed “window” free of guarding ships at KU = 1400 - 1800 l / b from the aircraft carrier at a distance of 30 cabin. from the main goal. In that
                      sector and the tracking position was taken in the acoustic illumination zone at a distance of 30 cables from the main target. What was reported to the Fleet CP using the space communication channel. Activity PLO AUS has not been established.
              2. +1
                5 June 2016 00: 13
                As for the Legend - I will agree.
                There is a true nuance - Liana is partially hanging out in space and, most likely, is already ready to work on part of the ocean. They will launch the missing in the near future. Perhaps already quietly launched.
                Liana has much greater capabilities and accuracy of 3 meters ...
                As for Aegis ..
                Here "not everything is so simple." Of course, the architecture of our old ships is not the most advanced. On the other hand, it was the USSR that began to implement the network-centric principles of organizing the battle, as it is not strange for someone to hear. And all sorts of different integrations are not a fact that they are not implemented in ships.
                The assorted systems on our cruisers have advantages - they have SPECIALIZED radars for the same low-flying targets, for example ... which is not available in Aegis and this is not a jamb (other western ships did not replicate this jamb and did not fall into fashion, I note).
                In general, I agree that the US Navy is an intelligent, powerful system. If something is being done in the United States wisely, it is naval. But so do not bow to them Aegis indiscriminately.
                1. -1
                  5 June 2016 00: 48
                  Quote: Philip Staros
                  As for the Legend - I will agree.
                  There is a true nuance - Liana is partially hanging out in space and, most likely, is already ready to work on part of the ocean. They will launch the missing in the near future. Perhaps already quietly launched.


                  as far as I remember (I can be mistaken) but from three satellites. related to Liana - two did not turn on after launch at all. and the third - suddenly died in space. And if so, 30 is faster than the guaranteed period.
                  so there is no creeper.

                  An orbital grouping is needed - but with our space program everything is very bad and no gaps are visible.
                  At least I would be talking to people associated with the production of our space program - I would not give 50% a chance of a successful launch.
                  1. +1
                    5 June 2016 00: 55
                    all who "communicate with people" in gloom ...
                    Because from the inside, all the bloopers are visible. And on the way out, as a rule, "they had time at the last moment" and "held their fingers with a cross."
                    I know from my industry ... For example, for example, the best printing house in the region (and neighboring to the heap). Everything is of high quality, fast, etc.
                    But from the inside - a solid rush, some jambs, "barely had time", etc. When I told the employees that they were the best at what they did, they seemed to think I was making fun of them.
                    And so it is everywhere. So don’t worry too much. While there is business, there are problems.
                  2. 0
                    5 June 2016 10: 45
                    > as far as I remember (I could be wrong)

                    just read on the wiki, it says there. And as far as one can judge from her information, Philip Staros is closer to the truth than you
                    1. 0
                      6 June 2016 20: 20
                      Quote: xtur
                      > as far as I remember (I could be wrong)

                      just read on the wiki, it says there. And as far as one can judge from her information, Philip Staros is closer to the truth than you


                      What is written on the wiki?
                      What is one satellite in 2009, and the second in 2014?

                      And the fact that the liana for a minimum simulation of operability requires a minimum of 4 satellite, you know?
                      Where else have 2 gone?
                      Why are there such huge omissions in launches of satellites of an extremely important program?

                      About Liana reported in all the news in 2013 will stand up!
                      But she is not.
                      no way.
                      Learn to understand systems.
                      The trouble with Liana.
                      She is in that state of design, flawed.

                      It is simply redesigned. and in the best case, by 2020, something will work out.
                  3. +1
                    6 June 2016 11: 26
                    I think you are not aware of all the nuances smile
                    with such opportunities for satellite output, they will not be able to put up with the absence of a whole niche for a long time. I work in an adjacent space industry and I know that satellites launch with enviable regularity. Not without jambs on the part of the great and effective, not without problems, but they let it go.
              3. +1
                5 June 2016 20: 13
                Quote: mav1971
                Exit to the radio channel - and after 5 minutes - it will be inundated with New Asroks from the guard ships.
                Exit to the active radar search - and again Asroki along with helicopters in 5 minutes. For a radar submarine with a range of more than 10 km is not threatened.

                Hmm ... I will not justify the author of the article. There are not enough "Volcanoes" on "Moscow" even under the ideal set of circumstances.
                But!
                Have we already canceled sonar? Why would a nuclear submarine come close to an AUG at the radar range? An aircraft carrier with guard ships makes noise so that it can be heard at a distance of hundreds of kilometers ...
                1. 0
                  6 June 2016 22: 52
                  Quote: Glad

                  Have we already canceled sonar? Why would a nuclear submarine come close to an AUG at the radar range? An aircraft carrier with guard ships makes noise so that it can be heard at a distance of hundreds of kilometers ...


                  The target coordinates must still be submitted for target designation.

                  Hundreds? Sure?
                2. 0
                  12 May 2017 11: 58
                  The best sonar in active mode is 15 km, in passive mode it is up to 120 km, and then only in convergence zone 2, if you know what it is - just in case the water zone is a narrow strip near the equator, 15 km is 5 minutes and enemy helicopters will make a chop of you to feed sharks
              4. 0
                1 November 2016 17: 17
                I agree with you, a lot has been written, but urapatriotic urine obscured the mind of the author. And I would like an adequate comparison.
                In principle, a hundred should start at least with the fact that there are different theaters of operations and they need different things. For example, in the Black Sea, an aircraft carrier really didn’t give up to us; basic aviation covers it all, but in the Pacific Ocean there is no kayuk without aircraft carriers.
            5. 0
              12 May 2017 11: 22
              That's exactly what you think, because you do not take into account - and in what way the boat will transmit the coordinates of the target while in the immediate vicinity of the AOG? Messaging from underwater position is possible only on long waves of the frequency range, and at the same time the submarine throws out a cable 4 km long and drags it along with it for the entire transmission time and it will take at least an hour at best. And then he finds himself. Either she will have to come up so that the satellite or VHF antenna comes out above the surface - and this is the end! if the submarine throws a repeater buoy, it will transmit only after the boat leaves the area. The most probable attack of a missile cruiser is possible by obtaining coordinates via satellite or AWACS aircraft.
          2. +1
            4 June 2016 14: 57
            All the power of the Tikanderoga is a hundred Tomahawks designed for ground targets.Please tell me that tomahawks can’t hit ships? Even if I upgrade a part of a hundred a bit? I'm not special, it's just an interesting article and there are even more questions. IMMEDIATELY ASKED WITHOUT TOMATOES. laughing
            1. +3
              4 June 2016 15: 05
              Quote: sandrmur76
              Please tell me that tomahawks can’t hit ships?


              Old with AGSN from Harpoons with difficulty, modernized as they say ...

              Another premiere remained little noticed - the first ever combat use of the TFR, equipped with a fundamentally new ARGS-14 GOS - active radar, capable of working on ground stationary and limited mobile targets in a complex natural and artificially created jamming environment. That is, the GOS ARGS-14 is capable of identifying targets against the background of difficult terrain and in conditions of active radio countermeasures by the enemy. In 2014, Raytheon, making up for the lag in guidance systems from Russian technologies for the TFR, began test flights of the improved Block IV modification to attack surface and restricted ground targets. The new active radar seeker IMS-280 with AFAR X-band (2) in the 10-12 GHz range (wavelength - 2,5 cm) is capable of using the reflected electromagnetic signal, comparing it with the archive of potential target signatures stored on the hard drive of the on-board computer, autonomously define: "our" - "alien" ship or a civilian ship. Depending on the answer, the rocket independently decides which target to attack. Gradually, the ARLs of the GOS are replacing the OE of the GOS from missiles of different classes from ATGM to TFR. However, the trend. With the same, one might say, identical characteristics, the American seeker is 25 percent heavier than the Russian one and occupies a larger volume in the rocket. The designers warned the military: despite the fact that the new GOS will be installed instead of the AN / DXQ-1 DSMAC optoelectronic module, it will be necessary to remove part of the fuel tanks of sections 1, 2, 3, the total volume of fuel will be reduced to 360 kilograms. This will reduce the missile's operational range from 1600 to 1200 kilometers. The military with a creak, but agreed. In return, they get a universal long-range missile system for strikes against ground targets and a full-fledged anti-ship missile in one missile, which they never had. A previous, obsolete TASM anti-ship Tomahawk model, retired more than a decade ago, was equipped with a primitive active radar seeker AN / DSQ-28 Harpoon missile, and there were serious concerns about the very limited ability to clearly identify targets from long range. The rocket could not find the target or take the first one that came across the AU, including its ships. Even the installation of GPS satellite navigation receivers on all missiles in the mid-90s did not really improve the situation. Anti-ship missiles BGM-109B TASM had an unprecedented maximum aerodynamic range of 500 miles (800 km), but the submarine and NK commanders were forbidden by internal instructions to use it for more than 200 miles. Raytheon is clearly winning the competition for a promising long-range anti-ship missile system from its competitor - Lockheed Martin with its LRASM project. The company proposes not to produce new missiles, but to modernize the entire arsenal of four thousand existing Tomahawks. The repair kit, which costs 250 thousand dollars apiece, includes a major overhaul with an extension of the service life for 15 years and the installation of a new GOS. The completion of the work is planned for 2021.
            2. +2
              4 June 2016 20: 25
              Upgrading is theoretically as long as there are no such tomahawks.
            3. +1
              4 June 2016 23: 08
              Well ... first of all, to beat they have to BE. While RCC based on tamahawks is still in the process, sort of.
              Secondly - Tamahawks is one and a half tons of weight and subsonic speed ... Something like any mosquitoes of our ... Well, or calibers. True, we have the supersonic caliber of anti-ship missiles. Anyway ... Our universal PUs have great advantages, since they can include not only skinny Caliber but Onyx, which are MUCH more.
              And what about the sizes?
              And despite the fact that in order to sink LARGE ships, large missiles are needed. Well, the range and so on depends on the size - the laws of physics ...
            4. 0
              6 June 2016 11: 29
              the ticonderoga has hundreds of tomahawks, but they hit not by the target, but by the coordinates (GPS or inertial guidance system). And the ship is moving, you need to taxi to it
              In addition, 70 percent, if not more, of the share of GPS-guided tomahawks, and this is only suitable for shooting Papuans at home.
          3. +1
            4 June 2016 15: 06
            And do not hope to destroy these aircraft you will not succeed. Each time they come to a new frontier of attack, which is also much lower than your radio horizon.
            If the AWACS aircraft lights up the ship, then the ship will see it. The only thing here is perhaps a shorter detection range on the ship's radar. And knowing the direction (a large plane in the middle of the ocean moves from the starting point), you can launch a rocket. And we don’t know anything about her target detection capabilities ...
            1. 0
              6 June 2016 03: 36
              Quote: zulusuluz
              If the AWACS aircraft lights up the ship, then the ship will see it.

              I’ll say more. If there is an UAV on board the ship, he will see the AWACS aircraft much further than the line at which the aircraft can detect the ship. The reason is simple: the plane detects the reflected signal, and the UAV - direct. Or, what is the same, the range of the radar of an AWACS aircraft is proportional to the fourth-degree root of the transmitter power, and the radio reconnaissance range is proportional to the square root of this power.
              Here you have the target designation for RCC ...
          4. +2
            4 June 2016 20: 58
            A dozen SU-35s with PTB take off, flooding all DLRO and F-18 aircraft ...
            After which it refuel in the air and flies to recharge ... the same dozen Sushies already fly up to replace them.
            Moscow in any scenario will act undercover from our shore
            On our shores within 2000km any AUG will go to feed the fish.
            1. +1
              4 June 2016 23: 40
              Quote: Skubudu
              A dozen SU-35s with PTB take off, flooding all DLRO and F-18 aircraft ...
              After which it refuel in the air and flies to recharge ... the same dozen Sushies already fly up to replace them.
              Moscow in any scenario will act undercover from our shore
              On our shores within 2000km any AUG will go to feed the fish.


              How many refueling aircraft are there in our Air Force?

              You can just see for yourself personally and then think. how everything should work, in order to realize your fantasies, you don’t need to answer - you already goofed off with your opus ...
              1. 0
                6 June 2016 16: 12
                33 tankers, according to Wikipedia, are enough for my "fantasies"
                just 1 IL-78 is enough for it to distribute 6 tons of fuel to 10 fighters on the way back.
            2. 0
              6 June 2016 11: 34
              this is where did you find such shores, which ours are already over 2000 km from the coastline?
          5. +2
            4 June 2016 22: 58
            Objectively, you are right - our ships cannot compete with the USA in the open ocean. Just because of the numerical superiority of the enemy multiple (!)
            Our business is to scare AUG away from the shores of Eurasia. Under the guise of COAST aviation.
          6. 0
            5 June 2016 00: 50
            Quote: GSH-18
            This is approximately from the height of the cruiser 20-25km.

            GS 18 - since when have the modern cruiser detection systems narrowed down to a mere 25 km ?????
            Modern systems and means of target designation and reconnaissance include a wide range and it is naive to believe that in the current conditions the naval group may be lost in the waters of the ocean))))) !!! (And when they designed this cruiser and weapons for it, they clearly knew how to detect and direct missiles of this type).
            1. +1
              5 June 2016 00: 57
              she will cease to be lost after the introduction of Liana.
              At the same time, to know where the adversary is (like a schooner on the radio "here on such a square the AUG is crawling!) And to" explain "the rocket where to fly is a significant difference.
              In other matters - and it’s also not worthwhile to exaggerate in vain — a missile on a blank - it possesses its own radar, knows how to recognize ships by its signature, etc.
              One way or another - we are waiting when they finish the unhappy Liana. It seems to be soon. Especially given the tension.
          7. 0
            6 June 2016 11: 06
            well, still 20-25 km is an understatement.
            firstly, for aerial purposes the horizon is different
            secondly, optics is not the only means of detection.
            but the point is true - the cruiser itself can not give target designation at an adequate distance.
          8. 0
            6 June 2016 12: 44
            Quote: GSH-18
            AUG in the Pacific is like a needle in a haystack and finding it without carrier-based aviation and other means of control is not easy.

            And the satellites and the coastal YES do not count? And in general that "Moscow" has forgotten in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. Let the AUG come closer to our shore, then we will take a look.
      4. +6
        4 June 2016 11: 29
        F / A-18E / F “Super Hornet” - American carrier-based fighter-bomber and attack aircraft. It is an in-depth revision of the F / A-18 fighter project. The first flight took place on November 29, 1995. Maximum speed: 1 915 km / h. Cruising speed: 1 km / h

        Let me note that the flight to the target at the maximum combat radius will be exclusively at cruising speed. At the same time, it will take some time for the start and the formation of the attacking group (which will reduce this range by about a couple of hundred kilometers), but if refueling is planned, the tanker still has to go to the line in advance, which, being a subsonic aircraft, he must do by starting like this for an hour and a half before the Super Hornits fly through the rendezvous point ... So: 1) Ch-2 - tanker take off, 2) Ch-1,5 - the attacking air group takes off, 3) Ch-0,5-1,0 - the air group is ready and heading for the target, 4) Ch-0,5 (if refueling is available) - refueling, increasing the speed to the maximum and going over to the attack from a distance of 200 km, 5) hour H - launching missiles, 6) reaching the target " The harpoon "flies for about 20-30 minutes (0,3-0,5 hours). So what comes out: the time for organizing the attack and its completion is at least 2,5 hours (and with the takeoff of aircraft and support helicopters, such as AWACS, it can take all 3-4 hours). The distance of interaction is 600-1000 km. "Volcanoes" allow you to get the same effect in 20-30 minutes. Those. with proper organization of reconnaissance, "Super Hornits" are just moving forward to the point of refueling or launching "Harpoons", as their AUG are already being torn to shreds by supersonic anti-ship missiles ... Something like this ... request Yes
        1. 0
          4 June 2016 23: 56
          and they won’t just look at an enemy tanker
        2. 0
          5 June 2016 21: 06
          There are no air tankers on board US aircraft.
      5. +1
        4 June 2016 22: 55
        The author suggested that readers can add two three-digit numbers.
        726 + RCC range is just about 1000 km somewhere. coming out.
    3. +1
      4 June 2016 10: 41
      And still the whole article is based only on the characteristics. And the battle is a battle and a lot depends on people.
      1. +1
        4 June 2016 12: 49
        A good plane, it’s just a plane, and add a great pilot to it .... this is another picture in a real battle!
      2. +8
        4 June 2016 13: 12
        You are absolutely right!
        We must focus on the preparation of combat crews and the technical readiness of the means of detection and weapons of the ship!
        No one will use weapons at long range (useless ammunition consumption) - not effective, because the probability of hitting a target decreases sharply, but this is so by the way ...

        Oh, these "expert storytellers" will not stand up or sit down like that!
        I would advise the "storyteller", before undertaking such analytics, to attend at least an air defense KUG exercise with live firing at missile targets (RM) and look at the whole process of combat work in reality, talk with ship commanders and ship specialists - a lot interesting to hear!
        Most of all I liked the ease with which the author "deals" with the means of attack of a potential enemy (planes, missiles) - well, just like in a shooting gallery!
        I can't say anything about the S-300F air defense system (there was nothing like this on my ships), but I have repeatedly used Osa-M and AK-630 on RM and everything is not as clear as the author describes.
        Detect and hit the same "Harpoon" (not a damn "quiet" -300 m / s) with an RCS of only 0,03 sq. M., With a heading parameter-0 and a flight altitude even if 10-15 m. In refraction conditions from the water surface with these complexes (Wasp and 630), even at medium distances, it is not very simple - here the reaction time of the complexes may simply not be enough. Again, everything depends on the preparedness of the calculations and the technical readiness of the hardware!
        It’s not weapons that fight, but people!
        And the article is neither + nor -. Rather "zero" ...
        1. +1
          4 June 2016 13: 33
          Quote: kepmor
          here elementary reaction time of the complexes may not be enough. Again, everything rests on the readiness of calculations and the technical readiness of the mathematical part!

          ... and if preliminary target designation from "senior bosses" type?
          1. +5
            4 June 2016 14: 12
            How do you imagine a "preliminary CU"?
            In the form of what? Is there a bearing, a distance?
            The logic of the anti-aircraft battle of a single ship and KUG is slightly different.
            If there is a "senior boss", then this is the KUG.
            He appoints:
            - battle order - the location of the ships of the order relative to the flagship;
            -fighting rate and warrant speed;
            -responsible sectors for the flagship and each ship orders. And there is no one preliminary TSU here.
            And each commander of the ship (but in reality as a headman at the GKP, TsPBU) already distributes the goals himself - gives out the TsU (bearing, distance) or sectors of fire between the SAM and ZAK, depending on the situation.
            And here the level of sophistication of the interaction between the GKP-KPKP-BPBP, preparation of combat crews, technical readiness of detection and destruction means, competent maneuvering and much, much more comes to the fore.
            Well, something like this...
            1. +2
              4 June 2016 14: 19
              Quote: kepmor
              And there is no one preliminary TSU here.

              ...understandably!
              I tried to compare this with ground air defense ...
              Although, the long-range radar in the warrant, in theory, it can identify and relay targets by sector.
              1. +3
                4 June 2016 15: 54
                Of course it can!
                But it all depends on the type of ships of the warrant and the compatibility of their BIUS.
                Excessive centralization of combat control is a big overload of all communication lines of the order, as well as excess information only interfere with decision-making.
                It is more effective when each commander is responsible for his sector, but again, all this is just a theory.
                Even with the actual firing of air defense systems, ZAK in the RM, the conditions are completely different - there is safety in the foreground.
        2. +1
          4 June 2016 20: 50
          I agree with your statement that it plays the role of people's preparedness: for you don’t have to trust a moron with electronics and enemies
        3. +1
          6 June 2016 03: 50
          Quote: kepmor
          I can't say anything about the S-300F air defense system (there was nothing like this on my ships), but I have repeatedly used Osa-M and AK-630 on RM and everything is not as clear as the author describes.

          The probability of hitting a target such as the Harpoon S-300F air defense missile system with a two-missile salvo is hardly more than 0,2. And for SAM "Osa-M" "Harpoon" is a very difficult target. "Dirk" copes better. But are there many of them in the fleet now?
    4. +2
      4 June 2016 14: 55
      The article is undoubtedly good. But the author missed one important issue in the analysis - is target designation. If the USA AMG will be able to receive it from its aircraft and satellites, then our IBM may have problems with this.
      1. 0
        4 June 2016 20: 32
        The fact is that the situation is so incomplete, we need to consider five or six aircraft carriers against Peter the Great, Moscow and Varyag and Kuznetsov. Missile weapons of American modernized submarines are extremely insufficient; Russia has six Antey nuclear submarines, each carrying 24 Granites.
        1. -1
          4 June 2016 23: 47
          Quote: KaPToC
          Russia has six Antey nuclear submarines bearing 24 Granite.


          There are only five of them in the ranks ...
          Who will give the target designation to the Granites?
    5. 0
      6 June 2016 09: 22
      Here on the site there is an article that explains a lot, including why the cruiser "Moskva" will lose the "Nimitz" AUG NATO ... http: //topwar.ru/96284-mnenie-pochemu-atomnye-podlodki-proekta-705-okazal
      is-ne-nuzhny-flotu.html

      "To understand the striking power of aircraft carrier strike groups, it is enough to imagine that the depth of defense of its core reaches 400 - 500 kilometers, and the area it occupies with the declared dominance is equal to the area of ​​Bulgaria. The aircraft carrier carries planes and helicopters for various purposes - from fighters to AWACS. prepared for the destruction of naval (submarine and NK) and ground targets, as well as solving the problems of air defense and missile defense. AUG forms the basis of strike formations implementing tactics "fleet against shore" at distances of several thousand kilometers. " Come down to the land of the "gentlemen", and really assess your chances ...
      1. 0
        6 June 2016 10: 01
        The claimed area of ​​AUG domination is based only on AWACS aircraft. After the generation of electromagnetic radiation, this area shrinks to the optical horizon, visible through binoculars from the wheelhouse of escort ships - up to 10 km in fine weather.

        What the hell is the "fleet against shore" tactic, when the maximum range of the Super Hornets with tactical Tomahawks is 2300 km, and the maximum range of the Su-35S with anti-ship Caliber-A is 3600 km? And this despite the fact that tactical Tomahawks have yet to be adapted for use from aircraft.
    6. 0
      6 June 2016 10: 59
      I did not understand, but how did the author take into account the presence of a pair of Arly Burkov in each AUG?
      to any volley of Moscow, they can release 30 pieces of missile defense
    7. 0
      6 June 2016 12: 43
      And how will 1164, 1144, etc. 949-A get stable target designation even at 600 km, or maybe even covered by interference?
      There are no satellites for ocean reconnaissance, Tu-95 RCs will soon be decommissioned by resource. Only Ka-31 remains with a maximum radius of about 300 km. Volcanoes will not start up the frigate with interference, they will wait for confirmation. How to realize the range of Granites, Garnets, Basalts, Volcanoes and even Onyxes?
    8. 0
      7 June 2016 11: 06
      As a more competent specialist in RKR, I can only say one thing: this article does not have enough secret facts that, like embellishing it, would add despondency. Our cruisers were certainly more powerful than the tycoderog.
    9. 0
      7 June 2016 11: 06
      As a more competent specialist in RKR, I can only say one thing: this article does not have enough secret facts that, like embellishing it, would add despondency. Our cruisers were certainly more powerful than the tycoderog.
    10. 0
      8 June 2016 14: 26
      Quote: armored optimist
      The article criticized by the author is one of the elements of liberal "care" about the fatherland

      or an attempt to drive the dough into our fleet. who knows? maybe ours have adopted the experience of the Yankees knocking money out of Congress?
      Also on occasion I’ll insert my 5 cents and a few questions:
      As for the P-1000 warhead: definitely "Moscow" has nuclear warheads. This is an ironclad fact.
      Regarding the destruction of the AUG warrant with a 350Kt warhead: what is the trajectory of the Kyrgyz Republic in the final section? It would be fun if the last 100 meters of the Kyrgyz Republic gained 100 meters in height. Then the AUG cover is guaranteed. Ships will certainly remain sailing, but these will already be pieces of radioactive lifeless iron. Firstly, with such use of a nuclear warhead, the effect will have the best efficiency + terrible temperature, and the aircraft will be completely blown off the deck of the aircraft carrier. But this is a war with all the consequences.
      And the most important and interesting thing: this is a range of 1000 km. What is capable of guiding a missile at such a distance from the launcher (the cruiser "Moskva" in our case)? Even AWACS is not capable of sort of like. There, the range is 600-800 km. Probably a satellite or stealth submarine. But the cruiser's systems are definitely not capable. Probably there are no systems at all that can direct the CD at such a distance from the target. Do volcanoes have ARGSN? And if we take the distance to the target as a maximum of 1000 km and a speed of 830 m / s (2.8M), then the time of defeat will be approximately 20 minutes. How far the target will travel during this time and what is the coverage of ARGSN in our RCC? Usually 20-30 km. In general, the question is interesting. I would like specifics from specialists.
      Although who knows ?! I heard we have military dolphins laughing Maybe those who know will enlighten ?!
      And the question is about Vulcan’s speed: does it have a constant speed of 2 + M, or is supersonic speed picking up speed in the last section?
      The "Harpoon" missile has a low speed - Mach 0,6 and is perfectly detected by radars

      I read at the level of 0.8M, but the author is right, he detects and gets off easily.
      less than the speed of ordinary passenger airplanes, which, as history has shown, are easily confused by old air defense systems of Ukraine

      It would be funny if it were not so sad! recourse
      On the subject of Goalkeeper: there was once an article on the comparison of the Ak-630 and its Western counterparts. I will not say anything, but our installation didn’t sin. Like TsU is rather weak. In addition, the review sector must be taken into account. At the same time, all 6 installations will not be able to accurately shoot, which reduces efficiency.
      First, we note that the air defense of American ships is significantly weaker than ours

      Our systems practically did not participate in hostilities. The same S-300 of any modifications generally never worked for a combat mission.
      And the example with frigate O. Perry is not indicative, because this class of frigates was considered extremely poor. It is thanks to the almost complete absence of air defense. Many of them were almost presented to the Turks. This is a stone in the garden of the largest after the Yankees fleet in NATO - Turkish. There is a lot of iron, but there’s not much use.
      Nevertheless, I will intercede for the Yankees: their elemental base has always been stronger. Their BIUS, guidance systems, tracking, etc. always been better due to more advanced electronics.
    11. 0
      8 June 2016 14: 26
      In general, the article is interesting.
      I would like to say separately that if we were as weak as the liberal public wants to see, their patrons would have attacked us long ago.

      But I just want to add one thing (which I often write in other comments): it’s time for us to develop a strategy (and not tactics as usual) to neutralize the enemy. All our lives we have been considering asymmetric ANSWERS, parity, etc. while our enemy is trying to kill us!
      The eternally defending cannot win in principle. Here the logic is merciless!
  2. -45
    4 June 2016 06: 46
    this is absurd, "Nimitz" against "Moscow" fool

    there is no chance y Moscow. hi
    1. +21
      4 June 2016 06: 53
      this is absurd, "Nimitz" against "Moscow"

      there is no chance y Moscow.

      What is the problem? Write an article and state your point of view!
      And so you are just a balabol! negative
      My minus.
      1. -26
        4 June 2016 07: 15
        Quote: Rokossovsky
        My minus.



        I don't care about the cons hi
        1. +26
          4 June 2016 07: 33
          I don't care about the cons

          That is, with the fact that your comment is not reasoned and, accordingly, do you agree balabol?
          Regard it only so. hi
          1. -25
            4 June 2016 07: 55
            Quote: Rokossovsky
            do you agree balabol?


            there is no point explaining to you. if you know anything about Nimitz then there would be no questions.



            South China Sea.
            1. +14
              4 June 2016 08: 03
              I can do it too! wassat Like Onyx! Here is an infection, even a concrete wall breaks in inert equipment !!!

            2. +14
              4 June 2016 08: 12

              there is no point explaining to you. if you know anything about Nimitz then there would be no questions.

              I also see no reason to continue the discussion with a man who did not argue his words with anything other than a worthless video from YouTube!
              Happy to stay ...
              PS Are you and Mr. Kaptsov not relatives?
            3. +4
              4 June 2016 10: 24
              Quote: godofwar6699
              South China Sea.

              Dear, where did the first group of airships go? The number of take-offs is not equal to the number of those who returned. Apparently they scammed with fear, rushed home. Yes, and on the deck you can see * heroes * already put on trousers. Because you smear the heels only when there is a hint of danger. everyone knows about them. negative
            4. +2
              4 June 2016 11: 52
              AND WHAT IS IT HERE? Whom to fear Vasya? sorry 1.50 minutes spent watching a video that is "about nothing"
        2. +1
          4 June 2016 10: 06
          Quote: godofwar6699
          I don't care about the cons

          Do not worry. With your permission, I will take care of myself. Here's a minus to you.
        3. +1
          4 June 2016 11: 52
          Quote: godofwar6699
          I don't care about the cons

          Are you a cock Like, I crowed, but at least do not dawn there? lol
      2. avt
        +14
        4 June 2016 09: 55
        Quote: godofwar6699
        this is absurd, "Nimitz" against "Moscow"

        Quote: Rokossovsky
        What is the problem? Write an article and state your point of view!
        And so you are just a balabol!

        No. ,, Informed source "This is the same as today at ,, Russian Spring"
        Ruslan Odintsov13 minutes ago
        The cruiser "Moskva" at Sevastopol covered the boat with the marines with a rocket shot. The media were ordered to be silent.
        There are no exact confirmations or denials yet. But, the fact that the incident took place and there were unplanned shots was already reported by insiders:


        According to a number of sources, under the Sevastopol were held exercises of the Russian Navy, which culminated in an accident.

        Missile cruiser "Glory" ("Moscow"), was supposed to cover the landing of marines on the shore.

        The cruiser was supposed to shoot at the target on the shore, but being late to the right square, the commander decided to shoot at high speed, and because of this, they missed.

        Instead of the desired target on the shore, the shell went straight into the boat with the Marine Corps, which was approaching the shore for landing.

        About how many people were on the boat is unknown, writes Agrimpasa.com.

        It is clear that all the Kremlin media are silent, the army does not comment on this in any way. Actually, what difference does it make for Russia to dig a couple more graves of unknown minced meat and put it somewhere near Rostov with the "comrades" who got lost in the Donbass.
        wassatMaybe this article about "Atlant" to order? laughing
      3. +2
        4 June 2016 10: 03
        Quote: Rokossovsky
        And so you are just a balabol!
        My minus.

        He’s not a balabol. He’s ... well. and my minus.
    2. +12
      4 June 2016 07: 30
      The P-1000 Volcano is a serious rocket, crammed like a full-fledged aircraft, in addition, a robot drone in the truest sense of the word, and that’s why it’s creepy. If judged by the capabilities of Granite, then obviously she can no less.
      In addition, the Republic of Kazakhstan will work together with submarines, diesels on the Black Sea, nuclear ones on others, and Project 949 has exactly the same Granites.
      They will simply bring down a volley on the order and even Aegis will not be able to track all the targets at the same time, and even maneuver from different angles. Real Robot Blitz ... wassat
      1. +2
        4 June 2016 11: 16
        Quote: kugelblitz
        They will simply bring down a volley on the order and even Aegis will not be able to track all the targets at the same time, and even maneuver from different angles. Real Robot Blitz ...

        Speak all right ... only the author missed one moment6 there are always one or two nuclear submarines in the AUG, which, in fact, are the biggest threat to the warrant with "Moscow".
        1. 0
          4 June 2016 12: 26
          Submarines should be in the warrant, and not in an independent search. Their task is PLO warrants.
          1. +1
            4 June 2016 12: 30
            Quote: armored optimist
            Submarines should be in the warrant, and not in an independent search. Their task is PLO warrants.

            Ever since the times of the USSR, one or several nuclear submarines has been assigned to each AUG. This is in addition to those nuclear submarines that are part of the warrant.
            1. +1
              4 June 2016 19: 59
              In vain minus. I was referring to the APL warrant AUG. And those SPs who follow their order are not included in the order of "Moscow", and vice versa. Therefore, the statement about the main task of the submarine warrant - anti-submarine defense is true.
              1. +1
                4 June 2016 23: 08
                Quote: armored optimist
                In vain minus. I was referring to the APL warrant AUG. And those SPs who follow their order are not included in the order of "Moscow", and vice versa. Therefore, the statement about the main task of the submarine warrant - anti-submarine defense is true.

                I did not minus ... in general, I rarely do this in principle.
      2. +4
        4 June 2016 12: 48
        Quote: kugelblitz
        In addition, the Republic of Kazakhstan will act together with submarines, diesels on the Black Sea, nuclear on others,

        What are you talking about? Not a single AUG will stick into our Black Sea, because it loses all its advantages there, turning into a target for our naval aviation and heavy anti-ship missiles of the Moskva cruiser! Not to mention the complete violation of the Montreux Convention.
        AUG is a marine tool of the ocean zone. There he is the king. Till...
        1. 0
          4 June 2016 13: 01
          Quote: GSH-18
          AUG is a marine tool of the ocean zone

          But it’s difficult to drag an atomic submarine into the Mediterranean Sea, secondly for a long time. Therefore, as part of the RK Moscow group, there will be diesels.
          And "for now" is already ending, due to the widespread use of radar remote sensing satellites. It is already possible to create, in fact, missiles with a launch range of 5000-10000 km, directed to the area using an inertial guidance system, or by scanning the terrain. As well as destruction with ballistic missiles by maneuvering warheads.
          Our open sources are silent, but rumors about satellites seeing through the surface of the Earth indirectly speak from those. Most likely we are talking about Arkon-2M.
          1. 0
            4 June 2016 13: 50
            Quote: kugelblitz
            But it’s difficult to drag an atomic submarine into the Mediterranean Sea, secondly for a long time.

            The 6th US operational fleet (Mediterranean AUG) always has 1-2 atomic submarines.

            Quote: kugelblitz
            And "for now" is already ending, due to the widespread use of radar ERS satellites

            Satellites are easy to jam or even knock down. For this reason, they are considered only as an auxiliary target designation tool for STATIONARY objects. AUG refers to stationary objects only when it is in port lol

            Quote: kugelblitz
            Like ballistic missile destruction with maneuvering warheads.

            Tell me please, dear, and where are the American AUGs now, how many of them are on alert, what is the direction of their movement, the degree of combat readiness? Do not know? So ballistic missiles do not know this either. Will you shoot in milk?
            Quote: kugelblitz
            Our open sources are silent, but rumors about satellites seeing through the surface of the Earth indirectly speak from those

            Let us not be likened to americoses with their reylgans.
            1. +2
              4 June 2016 14: 05
              Quote: GSH-18
              The 6th US operational fleet (Mediterranean AUG) always has 1-2 atomic submarines.

              This is in their case, I'm talking about our case. It’s possible to drag it, I don’t argue, but you need to do this in advance.
              Quote: GSH-18
              Satellites are easy to jam or even knock down.

              It is possible, therefore, the Americans began to work in this area back in the 80s, precisely because of well-founded fears.
              Quote: GSH-18
              AUG refers to stationary objects only when it is in port

              Based on statistics, a picture emerges, especially since the grouping should consist of more than one satellite.
              Quote: GSH-18
              Do not know? So ballistic missiles do not know this either. Will you shoot in milk?

              Of course I don’t know, for this purpose targeting is needed to know the approximate area in the area of ​​operation of the AGSN.
              Quote: GSH-18
              Let us not be likened to americoses with their reylgans.

              It will be cooler than railguns, somewhere infa slipped. Seriously, you can through the surface.



              1. +2
                4 June 2016 14: 12
                Quote: kugelblitz
                Of course I don’t know, for this purpose targeting is needed to know the approximate area in the area of ​​operation of the AGSN.

                You see, even in peacetime you don’t know. And in wartime, certainly AUG will include electronic warfare, which will further complicate the receipt of not only the location, but also target designation.
                Quote: kugelblitz
                It will be cooler than railguns, somewhere infa slipped. Seriously, you can through the surface.

                God bless our calves and wolf zisti! lol
                Well, if (and most importantly, when) our people stir up this, I will take off my hat to them hi
                1. 0
                  4 June 2016 14: 18
                  Quote: GSH-18
                  You see, even in peacetime you don’t know. And in wartime, certainly AUG will include electronic warfare, which will further complicate the receipt of not only the location, but also target designation


                  It worked in peacetime! good

                  Perhaps these shortcomings and successes of the Soviet cosmonautics determined that the IDRC is nothing more than a transitional option to a more perfect system. So it should have happened when, since the early 1980s, the strike forces of the fleet, armed with the Basalt, Granit and Vulcan complexes, began to focus on the Kasatka-B space target designation data acquisition system and the Navy was adopted the system of marine space reconnaissance and target designation (MCRTs) "Legenda", deployed in 1962. The system was built on spacecraft of two types: US-A - for active radar targets, the power supply system of which was provided by a nuclear reactor with a thermoelectric converter, and US-P - to conduct reconnaissance of radiation from operating radio equipment of enemy ships, the power supply of which was carried out from solar batteries. For a non-passable survey of the World Ocean, a system of four US-A and three US-P was envisaged.

                  The MKRTs system was the first space reconnaissance and target designation system for mobile sea targets, which has no analogues to date. The US military-industrial complex gave a peculiar assessment of the created system, which, while developing the Asat anti-satellite system, substantiated the need for its creation to counteract, first of all, the satellites of the MKRTs2 system.

                  RUS missile armament was also improved. Even at the stage of testing the P-6 and P-35 missiles in 1961, the Chelomey Design Bureau proposed a new P-500 missile system, designed to be included in the same RPM. His rocket had a large range and flight speed, an enlarged portion of the flight at low altitude, which was significantly reduced compared to the P-6 and P-35 anti-ship missiles. A more advanced control system had increased noise immunity and a more efficient distribution of missiles against targets in the ship’s warrant. The missile was first equipped with a system for removing anti-aircraft and aircraft missiles. The complex was intended to replace P-6 anti-ship missiles on Project 675 boats and equip surface ships of new projects

                  An analysis of the practical application of the MRCC and the ICRC showed that at one time the USSR was even ahead of the USA in the development of theory and, in some areas, the practice of reconnaissance and strike operations. Yes, the MRCC and MRKS systems were not perfect. Of course, organizing the detection and identification of surface targets is easier than ground targets. But, despite the narrow specialization of systems, they were a breakthrough for their time and a sure step on the path to creating an interspecific reconnaissance and destruction system (MVRPS). The path that the armies of all industrialized countries are currently following. And Russia, has not yet forgotten both the positive and negative experience with the practical application of the MREPS, it is necessary to analyze and take it into account when forming the state armament program both for the fleet and in the framework of creating interspecific RPMs.
                  1. 0
                    6 June 2016 11: 40
                    I wonder how satellites solved the problem of heating from reactor operation. feel
              2. +6
                4 June 2016 19: 27
                Oh, what nonsense .... Even no words ....

                I am the "lucky owner" of the X and S bands. Neh ... they do not appear through the water, not through the sand, or through the forest ... request

                PS. I watched this morning ... hi
                1. 0
                  4 June 2016 19: 41
                  Quote: Seaman77
                  Neh ... they don’t seem to be through the water

                  Ahem, so what is drawn in the picture? wassat
                  1. +5
                    4 June 2016 20: 26
                    Quote: kugelblitz
                    Quote: Seaman77
                    Neh ... they don’t seem to be through the water

                    Ahem, so what is drawn in the picture? wassat


                    I did not quite understand what you wanted to say, but I will explain my comment.
                    Look how beautifully the S range comes in the picture through ice, snow, desert (by the way, what is "desert" in the author's concept ???? The soil is different in different parts of the Earth ....), meadows and tundra. How did he (the author) measure these arrows ????? Ruler ???? And VHF is generally a radio communication. What you listen to in the car (if without details).
                    1. 0
                      4 June 2016 22: 06
                      Quote: Seaman77
                      Look how beautiful the picture comes in the S range through ice, snow, desert

                      Nothing really goes there. wassat In the book "Space-based ground survey radar systems" you will find it on page 66. lol
            2. +2
              4 June 2016 20: 05
              Even when I was serving, in the morning after entering the database, intelligence was reported. In it, not only the position of each aircraft carrier was noted, but also how many airplanes at the bases of our theater, where U-2, TR-1, SR-71A. That was in the 80s. I do not think that now the capabilities of technical intelligence have become much weaker.
          2. +1
            4 June 2016 16: 24
            Quote: kugelblitz
            And "for now" is already ending, due to the widespread use of radar ERS satellites

            Have you heard about the A-235 missiles of the Nudol project, or about the S-500? These are the systems that are designed to control near space. At the same time, mattresses have a similar system much more modest.
            Quote: kugelblitz
            It is already possible to create essentially missiles with a launch range of 5000-10000 km, sent to the area using an inertial guidance system, or by scanning the terrain.

            If it were possible, they would have been created long ago. So far, in the foreseeable future, RCC Zircon with a range of 1000-1200 km are expected
            Quote: kugelblitz
            Most likely we are talking about Arkon-2M.

            With the same success, I can tell you that the Yu-71 glider (a hyper-speed aircraft capable of carrying missiles with nuclear warheads) is being tested.
            1. +1
              5 June 2016 00: 00
              Quote: NEXUS
              Quote: kugelblitz
              And "for now" is already ending, due to the widespread use of radar ERS satellites

              Have you heard about the A-235 missiles of the Nudol project, or about the S-500? These are the systems that are designed to control near space. At the same time, mattresses have a similar system much more modest.
              Quote: kugelblitz
              It is already possible to create essentially missiles with a launch range of 5000-10000 km, sent to the area using an inertial guidance system, or by scanning the terrain.

              If it were possible, they would have been created long ago. So far, in the foreseeable future, RCC Zircon with a range of 1000-1200 km are expected
              Quote: kugelblitz
              Most likely we are talking about Arkon-2M.

              With the same success, I can tell you that the Yu-71 glider (a hyper-speed aircraft capable of carrying missiles with nuclear warheads) is being tested.



              Not a single C-500 missile has been in service - and their direct counterpart - the adversary SM-3 and the TSAAD, have been in service for many years.
              Zircon will be much less long-range. about 4 times smaller. written by you. For him to get up in UVP.
              Think at least a little lying then, or do you always have "solid 45cm"?
              1. +1
                5 June 2016 00: 11
                Quote: mav1971
                Not a single C-500 missile has been in service - and their direct counterpart - the adversary SM-3 and the TSAAD, have been in service for many years.

                Did I say that they are in service? Dear, read the posts carefully and do not dust ... during the 2-3 years, the C-500 will be adopted.
                Quote: mav1971
                Zircon will be much less long-range. about 4 times smaller. written by you. For him to get up in UVP.
                Think at least a little lying then, or do you always have "solid 45cm"?

                It’s just that you dear, it would not hurt to think about it, and to remember the feeling of tact, and not to bubble up and drool. Do you have info about the performance characteristics of Zircon, smart are you our expert?
                Where are the woods-
                For him to get up in UVP.
                Is this your argument? What do you even know about this RCC?
                It’s stupid to make the main strike complex for Nakhimov with a radius of 400 km, if the same Granite hits on 700. Do not you think so? Or will you blow bubbles like that?
                1. +1
                  5 June 2016 00: 47
                  I note that our UVP made under Onyx, first of all. That is two times more than the American fart under the small Tamahawks.
                  Onyx is not a Volcano of course ... But if Gauges (which are not anti-ship missiles) fly at 1600 km., What prevents a twice as large rocket (in mass) from flying at 1200 km?
                  Something like this.
                  1. +2
                    5 June 2016 01: 26
                    Quote: Philip Staros

                    Onyx is not a Volcano of course ... But if Gauges (which are not anti-ship missiles) fly at 1600 km., What prevents a twice as large rocket (in mass) from flying at 1200 km?
                    Something like this.


                    You just have to probably think about that. what speed indicators and accordingly engines stand on Caliber and will stand on Zircon?
                    and their engines are not just different - they are completely different. You can even call it "with a stretch" on completely different physical principles ...
                    1. +1
                      5 June 2016 03: 48
                      I remember - a hypersonic Zircon with a ramjet engine and "just a rocket".
                      We will see. I also have not seen data on 1200 km anywhere. But I agree that a range of this order is necessary and in the presence of satellite constellation is logical. And the satellites will be operational by that time.
                    2. +1
                      5 June 2016 03: 50
                      In principle, if S-400 hypersonic solid propellant rockets fly 400 km, why can't direct-flow Zircon fly further? Moreover, in terms of energy, air defense systems can fly further.
                      In general, wait - we'll see.
                2. +1
                  5 June 2016 01: 50
                  Quote: NEXUS
                  Quote: mav1971
                  Not a single C-500 missile has been in service - and their direct counterpart - the adversary SM-3 and the TSAAD, have been in service for many years.

                  Did I say that they are in service? Dear, read the posts carefully and do not dust ... during the 2-3 years, the C-500 will be adopted.
                  Quote: mav1971
                  Zircon will be much less long-range. about 4 times smaller. written by you. For him to get up in UVP.
                  Think at least a little lying then, or do you always have "solid 45cm"?

                  It’s just that you dear, it would not hurt to think about it, and to remember the feeling of tact, and not to bubble up and drool. Do you have info about the performance characteristics of Zircon, smart are you our expert?
                  Where are the woods-
                  For him to get up in UVP.
                  Is this your argument? What do you even know about this RCC?
                  It’s stupid to make the main strike complex for Nakhimov with a radius of 400 km, if the same Granite hits on 700. Do not you think so? Or will you blow bubbles like that?



                  Firstly - here's a link about C-500.
                  http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20110420/366546276.html
                  Don't you see anything funny?
                  Myself in the mirror? not?

                  continue.
                  About the beat. You have been caught more than one hundred times on such violent fantasies that even you wonder.
                  You do not just cheat several times. you also come up with some sort of fables.
                  With enviable regularity. Often. and just believe in them.
                  I came up with it myself, I believed it myself, I prove it with foam.
                  And most importantly, they tell you. that you are a dreamer - you are like water off a goose.
                  Therefore, I wrote about solid 45cm.
                  Because. that you are very similar to Pinocchio - he also always had at least 45cm nose.
                  and also solid.
                  You probably know why?

                  About Zircon.
                  Zircon - sits in the same UKKS, which was made to the size of Onyx.
                  Zircon is made by the same people, the same enterprises.
                  Will be issued at the same enterprise.
                  There are no plans for his rearmament.
                  Accordingly, Zircon is most likely a Onyx modification with a faster engine.
                  Important.
                  Zircon is all so supersonic.
                  For hypersound from 5M.
                  Zircon will be 4,5M

                  Onyx flies to 300km along a high-altitude trajectory - at this altitude it is not dangerous to anyone, it has been visible from the moment it was launched and it is straying from any modern defense complex.
                  Onyx is dangerous only on a low altitude trajectory, but its flight range in this case. only 120km. Alas - fuel consumption is too high at low altitudes.

                  We pass to Zircon.
                  An increase in flight speed by 50% (and in real terms by 500m / s) in the same dimensions will bring a "must-have surprise" with a minus sign.
                  Something must worsen or decrease.

                  20 has not had a revolution in jet fuels for as many years as it will in the foreseeable future. so do not count on magic kerosene.
                  Where does 1200 km of flight come from?

                  Granite has outlived its term.
                  He definitely needs external target designation. But he is not.

                  without it, Granite is no different from Onyx, which is much smaller and 2 times smaller.
                  A plus. there is a probability of exit from the operating conditions of the fuel mixture.
                  Over time, this happens.
                  It’s not without reason that there is even a project to re-equip yet another carrier of Granites - submarines of the Antei family.

                  1. +2
                    5 June 2016 02: 01
                    Quote: mav1971
                    Myself in the mirror? not?

                    No ... I see your stupidity except ...
                    Quote: mav1971
                    About the beat. You have been caught more than one hundred times on such violent fantasies that even you wonder.
                    You do not just cheat several times. you also come up with some sort of fables.

                    What are you saying? laughing You should recall at least the first thing that comes to mind is, for example, our conversation about SU-47 Berkut. And who sat there bubbled and eventually bit his tongue? So who is the dreamer, Pinocchio you are our unfinished? Or say that there wasn’t that conversation, When did you prove to everyone with foam at the mouth that the Golden Eagle was not designed for carrier-based aviation?
                    Quote: mav1971
                    Where does 1200 km of flight come from?

                    That is, to the question — what do you specifically know about Zircon, your answer is again bubbles and reflections — how spaceships plow the expanses of the universe ...
                    I repeat the question: WHERE TO MAKE THE MAIN CALIBER ON NAKHIMOV MUCHLY LESS THAN FARESTONE WHAT WAS?
                    1. +1
                      5 June 2016 06: 51
                      Quote: NEXUS
                      Quote: mav1971
                      Myself in the mirror? not?

                      No ... I see your stupidity except ...
                      Quote: mav1971
                      About the beat. You have been caught more than one hundred times on such violent fantasies that even you wonder.
                      You do not just cheat several times. you also come up with some sort of fables.

                      What are you saying? laughing You should recall at least the first thing that comes to mind is, for example, our conversation about SU-47 Berkut. And who sat there bubbled and eventually bit his tongue? So who is the dreamer, Pinocchio you are our unfinished? Or say that there wasn’t that conversation, When did you prove to everyone with foam at the mouth that the Golden Eagle was not designed for carrier-based aviation?
                      Quote: mav1971
                      Where does 1200 km of flight come from?

                      That is, to the question — what do you specifically know about Zircon, your answer is again bubbles and reflections — how spaceships plow the expanses of the universe ...
                      I repeat the question: WHERE TO MAKE THE MAIN CALIBER ON NAKHIMOV MUCHLY LESS THAN FARESTONE WHAT WAS?



                      1. Stupidity?
                      Well no. The usual Russian reality is the promise of adopting the C-500 into service in the 2015 year.

                      2. Pliz a link to my participation in some sort of dispute about Su-47 ... Otherwise, you are again a talker.

                      3. You seem to think tightly.
                      The main caliber is "tired" and "cannot" anymore.
                      No one can induce him.
                      He turned into a pumpkin.
                  2. 0
                    5 June 2016 04: 02
                    As for the adoption of C-500 in the troops ...
                    Actually, with 2012, the approximate dates were announced from 2016 to 2017 of the year. So they remain to this day. The only difference is that during this time we have the C-400 in our series, including a long-range missile, finally ... separate new radars, etc. All sorts of other new air defense systems ... So there is no reason to believe that the C-500 will not arrive in the coming year.

                    As for Zircon. What range is Onyx really interested in ... But you are probably right, and it is not great.
                    However, technically it can be increased. As I already wrote - if air defense missiles of a similar size fly on 400-500 km. quite a hypersound (2,1 km / s.) then why are missile defense systems not flying a sufficient distance, provided that this distance is NECESSARY tactically?
                    Various compromise options are also possible, such as flying at low speed until the deadline and a breakthrough in hypersound to the target for the last hundred kilometers.
                    1. +1
                      5 June 2016 22: 08
                      Quote: Philip Staros
                      As for the adoption of C-500 in the troops ...
                      Actually, with 2012, the approximate dates were announced from 2016 to 2017 of the year. So they remain to this day. The only difference is that during this time we have the C-400 in our series, including a long-range missile, finally ... separate new radars, etc. All sorts of other new air defense systems ... So there is no reason to believe that the C-500 will not arrive in the coming year.

                      As for Zircon. What range is Onyx really interested in ... But you are probably right, and it is not great.
                      However, technically it can be increased. As I already wrote - if air defense missiles of a similar size fly on 400-500 km. quite a hypersound (2,1 km / s.) then why are missile defense systems not flying a sufficient distance, provided that this distance is NECESSARY tactically?
                      Various compromise options are also possible, such as flying at low speed until the deadline and a breakthrough in hypersound to the target for the last hundred kilometers.


                      1. Why is RCC not a missile defense?
                      Everything is very simple - this is the size of the warhead. and her weight.
                      The difference in warheads between missiles and anti-ship missiles at times.
                      Each kilogram of payload is either plus a lot of kilograms of fuel and, accordingly, sizes, or the same size - but less fuel and less range.

                      2. The compromise option is the RCC Caliber version - with a final jerk disc up to 2.9M.
                      1. 0
                        6 June 2016 00: 32
                        RCC is not SAM. But 5 mach is not 1 mach - kinetic energy in itself is enough for a lot.
                        Secondly, the range of the same Onyx is limited, to all appearances, to a greater extent by the question of the target of designation ... The Bastion also flies to it “several times farther” at ground targets, as stated.
                        Again - if Granite and Vulcan flew far from supersonic, then why can't Zircon? Again - it is quite possible to fly along a high-altitude path, if you fly faster than anti-aircraft missiles :)) The optimal path for hypersonic aircraft is to fly at altitudes of 50 kilometers so ... with a decrease in front of the target.
              2. 0
                5 June 2016 00: 19
                The A-135 with its missiles has been in service for a long time ...
                What's wrong with the S-300V4? S-400? the fact that the altitude of the passport is a bit inferior? "And you, too, say that three times ..." as in an anecdote.
                Talking about this THAAD will not work ... "Unparalleled", damn it :)
                I don’t remember as a memory, but what is the maximum speed there that knocks down the Standard now? As far as I remember, not a young man S-300V worked on the BR at a speed of 4,8 km / s. Somewhere the Standard is the same today ...
                1. +1
                  5 June 2016 00: 28
                  Quote: Philip Staros
                  The A-135 with its missiles has been in service for a long time ...

                  That's right ... but Nudol will agree better. And the last launch was successful.
                  Quote: Philip Staros
                  Why is the S-300V4 bad? S-400? the fact that the height of the passport is slightly inferior?

                  The S-500, however, like the A-235, is geared towards intercepting ballistic missiles and destroying satellites in near space ... not many, but the tasks are a bit different. The S-350/400 rather complements the capabilities of the S-500.
                  Quote: Philip Staros
                  Somewhere the Standard is the same today ...

                  The standard is capable of intercepting ICBMs only in the acceleration section, which is why Poplars began to be changed to Yars, since the acceleration section of the RS-24 is less than that of Topol.
                  1. 0
                    5 June 2016 00: 49
                    I don’t know for sure, but I suspect that the S-300V rocket on the booster would also have shot down ICBMs (although here you need to watch the dynamics, etc.). It seems that the speed standards do not exceed our large missiles from Systems ...
                    Another thing is that our sea-based air defense systems (long-range) are outdated and inferior, in general, to American ones.
                    As in everything - with the general degradation of everything in a row in the US ground forces, the fleet is an island of "good old America," so to speak (see, for example, ICBMs).
          3. +1
            4 June 2016 23: 53
            Quote: kugelblitz
            It is already possible to create essentially missiles with a launch range of 5000-10000 km, sent to the area using an inertial guidance system, or by scanning the terrain.



            I was very offended by the phrase about the terrain related article about anti-ship weapons ...

            kugelblitz - are you all right with your mindset? :)
            1. 0
              5 June 2016 08: 59
              Quote: mav1971
              I was very offended by the phrase about the terrain

              For such a distance, it’s normal even very much! wassat Such a missile should strike, if possible, from its own territory, and will have significant dimensions. So she needs to strike from unexpected angles and fly at low altitude to exclude detection. Why not "screw" several systems, for duplication, combining telecontrol, inertial, satellite and radar terrain survey, hanging the latter option on the AGSN radar.

              Z.Y. and finally it’s pure spherokonin and hypothetics, but nevertheless I see the weapon of the near future like this! fellow
              1. +1
                5 June 2016 21: 58
                Quote: kugelblitz

                Z.Y. and finally it’s pure spherokonin and hypothetics, but nevertheless I see the weapon of the near future like this! fellow


                I am very glad to "spherokonin" - remember. A plus. -)
    3. +5
      4 June 2016 07: 57
      There are chances. For you dear comrade do not know that the Russians do not give up, and the Americans are cowards and wimps)))
      1. -39
        4 June 2016 08: 13
        Quote: carpag
        that the Russians do not give up


        especially in world 2 good
        1. +27
          4 June 2016 08: 31
          Quote: godofwar6699
          especially in world 2

          Oh, and who is this, with arms raised? Really, brave American soldiers? Can not be!
          About 80 thousand soldiers of the American army were captured. At the end of WWII and on the Western Front, where not the most, to put it mildly, fighting units of the Third Reich fought against the Allies.
          So you should not poke fun at such a topic, American. Although, what are you, to the devil, an American? Ordinary sausage emigrant ..
          1. -33
            4 June 2016 08: 46
            in the USSR, my grandfather served in World War II, my point of view is words such as
            Russians don't give up or Americans don't give up, for people who didn't serve hi
            1. +28
              4 June 2016 08: 56
              Quote: godofwar6699
              in the USSR my grandfather served in the 2nd world
              Do you know what the difference is between your grandfather and mine? Yours served (and it is not yet known to whom), but mine fought. And he came to Germany. And somehow it’s not customary for us to confuse the concepts of World War II and World War II. So you're some kind of muddy, American.
              1. +6
                4 June 2016 11: 57
                Quote: Ami du peuple
                So you're some kind of muddy, American.

                Another "daughter of a Russian officer".
                1. +1
                  4 June 2016 14: 05
                  Quote: Homo
                  Quote: Ami du peuple
                  So you're some kind of muddy, American.

                  Another "daughter of a Russian officer".

                  To the point laughing good
              2. -2
                4 June 2016 21: 14
                My friend, you rightly said: "Yours served (and it is still unknown to whom) .." The Americans themselves prefer to say "fought", and the term "served" for some reason reminds me of the Vlasovites or former punishers from the Sonderkommando.
                1. 0
                  5 June 2016 00: 03
                  Quote: Monarchist
                  My friend, you rightly said: "Yours served (and it is still unknown to whom) .." The Americans themselves prefer to say "fought", and the term "served" for some reason reminds me of the Vlasovites or former punishers from the Sonderkommando.


                  Did you know that almost 2 million people during the 1941-1945 war of the year precisely served in our army?
                  were participants in the hostilities - but participants in the war - were not.
                  One of my grandfathers who went through the war received the rank of participant in the war only at the end of the 80's. early 90's.

                  so don’t trynd about that. what you don’t know.
                  1. 0
                    6 June 2016 11: 50
                    my grandfather in the 41st, when he was driving to the front to mobilize, fell under the bombing of a train.
                    As a result, he became a hospital, retraining and participant in the war only in the 42nd, and before that he was only a participant in the hostilities.
            2. +8
              4 June 2016 11: 25
              Quote: godofwar6699
              my point is words like
              Russians don't give up

              Man, this phrase is true ... simple numbers, especially for you-for 1000 years of the history of Russia, 650 Russians fought!Moreover, in the last two world wars. At the same time, Russia not only did not disappear, but grew land. And Russian morale is not just words. Any fascist general would confirm this to you.
            3. The comment was deleted.
            4. +1
              4 June 2016 15: 58
              Absolutely correct remark.-In all countries, the French shout, they don’t give up, Americans, Chinese, generally people who know how to fly judging by the films, basically never gave up. And Russians all the more EVER !!! - You hear, NEVER give up! !! But let me ask ... And who then in the photographs of the times of the 2nd World Column moves from horizon to horizon? A form like ours ...
              1. 0
                4 June 2016 17: 32
                Quote: Denker
                a form like ours
                Your only shkonka and parasha. negative
                Dear, are you not tired of shitting on VO yet? How many times have you been driven into skulls, but you, with persistence. worthy of a better application, continue to pour out the slops.
                Regarding your question, in the photographs you are talking about, military servicemen of the Red Army who were captured. Who by virtue of circumstances, and who by virtue of natural nits and selfishness. You certainly would, in those conditions, were among the latter. I would even say - would be the first of the last.
                1. The comment was deleted.
                2. -9
                  4 June 2016 20: 28
                  This is not the answer Pitushin you Tsar of All Omitted. This is a cheap excuse for the one who was raped and he says, just not pee. And the answer about the hide is simple, and it's not a matter of fun; circumstances and hide: in another, everywhere there are prisoners: EVERYONE doesn’t need to crow about the bucket here, go to your mom and ask where you got it from. Each lap-dog will smell you. And you don’t need to be here — you are not Nostradamus and not Vanga — you are more likely all that is described by me above
                  1. +2
                    5 June 2016 01: 20
                    Quote: Denker
                    Pitushin you Tsar of All Omitted. And you don’t need to be here — you are not Nostradamus and not Vanga — you are more likely all that is described by me above
                    Imbecile you. Sgin.
                    1. The comment was deleted.
                3. The comment was deleted.
                4. 0
                  6 June 2016 11: 55
                  I do not understand the essence of the dispute. Were Russian prisoners of war? Yes they were.
                  And how bravely or cowardly they gave up, you can guess forever.
                  According to numerous reports of the Red Army, they usually surrendered after exhausting the capabilities of defense - either without cartridges, or without food, or without strength or consciousness.
                  Surrendering purely by cowardice, there was little from fright.
              2. +1
                4 June 2016 21: 25
                If all the Russians surrendered "from horizon to horizon" this implies, who then took Berlin?
                1. -8
                  4 June 2016 22: 03
                  By December 41, more than 3 and a half million soldiers of the Red Army were captured, I don’t know who took Berlin, not about that now, the figures above are a fact and the rest is an empty polemic
                  1. 0
                    5 June 2016 01: 16
                    Quote: Denker
                    By December 41, inclusive, more than 3 and a half million soldiers of the Red Army were captured
                    You, damn it, where do you get such numbers? Do you pick it out of your nose? If even in the West the total number of Soviet prisoners of war during the war years is estimated at 5,5 million. According to our data, which I tend to trust more - 4 million.
                    Not only are you a troll, you are also an absolutely illiterate troll. Sin, unclean! Three times ugh on you!
                    1. -4
                      5 June 2016 06: 07
                      You are clean and pleasant - the total number of prisoners for the whole !!!! - The Great Patriotic War amounted to 6 million people !!! - the mass captivity was exactly 41 years. The same figure reaches 6.
                      Well, if you, who is the most intelligent and sensible here, are more than 4 million okay, let it be your way. And you are so proud to operate on this figure, then I think that for you what? -4 million is this so normal ?. Near Kiev, only one got to more than 600 thousand !!!! A person, according to various estimates, there may be more !!! And why do such smart people like you have a way of insulting readers? -What you still can’t stop at, that you’re a woodpecker? In our country, Russians do not surrender?
                      1. 0
                        5 June 2016 08: 05
                        Quote: Denker
                        4 million is so normal?
                        This is not normal, given that more than half of the captivity did not return - their civilized Germans were overthrown. Only from this figure should we subtract a large number of men of military age, underground and partisans, who were also considered prisoners of war by the Germans.
                        Quote: Denker
                        Near Kiev alone it got to more than 600 thousand !!!!
                        Near Kiev, in the ranks of the South-Western Front, more than 600 thousand people fought in total. At the same time, a quarter of them did not get into the environment, and the number of people who subsequently left the environment was several tens of thousands. And how many more died during the fighting?
                        You got the German nonsense to broadcast.
                      2. -5
                        5 June 2016 10: 22
                        The partisans and the underground were not considered prisoners of war as they were not read out by the current ones — they were immediately destroyed — they were considered bandits and they were almost never taken prisoner like ours — unless they were later interrogated or cut or shot in a ditch. They were hanged. This first, secondly, fought much more because of the other units that had joined in the retreat; the official figure was actually much larger. Another thing is that the Germans considered all prisoners of war if they wore at least a cap. They took it and often let it go home))) They also treated the national minorities. They generally kicked the ass. The soldiers, I mean, they were often not even put in concentration camps. Since they were not considered to be people at all. There were tens of thousands of those who were not planted or taken into account. In fact, far more than 600 thousand people were taken. They released all those who had relatives and those to whom they were able to come and prove that this was her husband, brother-in-law. So your 600 are bullshit
                      3. +3
                        6 June 2016 12: 16
                        well you're lying and lying, lying and lying tirelessly
                        most likely, they just studied the story poorly, and no one told you about it.
                        in the Kiev cauldron, yes, about 665 thousand were taken prisoner, but where did you get the idea that all these people were soldiers? At the beginning of the fighting, there were less than half a million soldiers. According to the books by ala Bykov, "The Kiev Cauldron", which calls 665 thousand prisoners? So you defined? There were intense battles. And many were killed.
                        Of the 665 thousand, the majority - of the 500 thousand, lost able-bodied men from Glavoboronstroy, these are not soldiers, but builders and other rear services.
                        of the troops, no more than 100-105 thousand were actually captured. This is a lot, but still far from 665 thousand, but 6 times less.
                        I’ll also notice that the Germans on the approaches to Kiev captured about 100 thousand workers from Glavoboronstroy.

                        ps if you proceed from your own arguments, the Red Army in 44-45 only took prisoners in Europe more than 20 million Germans and other nations. Before believing in the idiotic numbers of "historians", try to turn on your brain!
                    2. -4
                      5 June 2016 06: 07
                      You are clean and pleasant - the total number of prisoners for the whole !!!! - The Great Patriotic War amounted to 6 million people !!! - the mass captivity was exactly 41 years. The same figure reaches 6.
                      Well, if you, who is the most intelligent and sensible here, are more than 4 million okay, let it be your way. And you are so proud to operate on this figure, then I think that for you what? -4 million is this so normal ?. Near Kiev, only one got to more than 600 thousand !!!! A person, according to various estimates, there may be more !!! And why do such smart people like you have a way of insulting readers? -What you still can’t stop at, that you’re a woodpecker? In our country, Russians do not surrender?
              3. +2
                5 June 2016 00: 25
                Ours, of course, surrendered too. Most of them waited for the moment to escape again ... and ran. And most of the "traitors" who persuaded the Germans to arm themselves and let them fight against their own also managed to go to their own with weapons ... often in units (in the sense of subdivisions).
                But that's not the point.
                There are quite boring parameters, such as resistance to losses, various kinds of percentages, etc.
                And these dry and concrete figures speak of the stamina of the Russian troops many times higher than that of other peoples.
                And it’s not even that the French or other such cowards.
                Just a different attitude to the war on the basis of different historical EXPERIENCE.
                In the West, for a European ... war in most cases is a question of "who will own the given land" - by and large a "commercial operation" of the "owners". Defeat in the war for him, as a rule, means a change of sign and burgamist. There were options, but still.
                For a Russian, it is about the survival of his family, country. We fight to death, because at stake is the EXISTENCE of us as a people every time.
                That's it.
                The capture of the Englishman meant that for some time he would live in the camp. Where will they feed him ... he will play football or some other game every few days ... and then, after the war, he will go home.
                So it was.
                What this meant for a Russian is a completely different story.
                1. 0
                  5 June 2016 02: 13
                  Quote: Philip Staros
                  The capture of the Englishman meant that for some time he would live in the camp. Where will they feed him ... he will play football or some other game every few days ... and then, after the war, he will go home.
                  So it was.


                  The Japanese showed no.
                  1. 0
                    5 June 2016 03: 27
                    I am not saying that "the natives did not eat Cook", I am talking in general about the formation of a culture of war, so to speak.
                2. The comment was deleted.
                3. -2
                  5 June 2016 10: 44
                  I watched the program where the Germans in the concentration camp of Americans kept-tortured and beaten to death, starved to death. The bodies were stacked. So who survived still living veterans until the last moment did not tell their relatives where they were and who they were then-personally saw this program as the old people cried Americans. They could hardly talk about how the Germans mocked them. It is clear that this phenomenon is not massively e. Basically it is more or less decent feeding, the barracks are warm and the red cross ... But here it was ...
            5. 0
              6 June 2016 04: 15
              Quote: godofwar6699
              USSR my grandfather served in the 2nd world


              And where did you serve, let me curiosity. Not in ROA by accident?
          2. +4
            4 June 2016 08: 46
            it's morning exercises
          3. +1
            4 June 2016 08: 46
            it's morning exercises
            1. +2
              4 June 2016 10: 46
              in line of foreign tourists to a machine with cola

              why aren't they smiling? Yes, they are not Americans at all ...
          4. The comment was deleted.
          5. -16
            4 June 2016 14: 43
            Oh, and you have not seen on the occasion of the chronicle of the captured Red Army from horizon to horizon? -What right do you have to disgrace soldiers even if not their own? And there were combat-ready German units in France — don’t need la-la. And the SS-sheep fought there too. You scatter photos of the soldiers, the Germans also had such pictures heaped with our prisoners. Respect those who fought ...
        2. -1
          4 June 2016 10: 30
          Quote: godofwar6699
          especially in world 2

          And what's so special? They attacked like jackals from around the corner. Remember, dear, once and for all: * RUSSIANS LOCK FOR A LONG TIME, BUT FAST FAST *. Proven by history.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. -13
            4 June 2016 14: 44
            I would not say that we drove to Berlin at a gallop ... Rather, the Germans reached Moscow at a gallop ...
            1. +2
              4 June 2016 21: 32
              Wehrmacht was a strong adversary and better prepared in all respects (which is a sin to conceal), and all the more so to us of honor.
            2. +2
              4 June 2016 23: 11
              Quote: Denker
              Rather, the Germans reached Moscow at a gallop ..

              To the defenders of the Brest Fortress, tell this to both the Sevstopaltians and Odessa residents ...
              1. +2
                5 June 2016 00: 33
                For the sake of objectivity, it should be noted that the superiority of the Germans in strategy (blitz cry) and experience (at the time of the attack, they had already been fighting for two years. Although not the same as they had to fight in the USSR ... it was quite possible for the Germans to defeat the regular army of the USSR for planned dates (with some excursions).
                Another question is that it is not enough to defeat the Russian army. It is necessary to defeat the people. And no one has succeeded yet.
                The rapid offensive allowed to leave the Red Army without supplies, organization, communications and other things. And the Germans beat the disparate detachments, albeit three times heroic, but helpless against a properly organized attack that preserved the integrity and organization of the army.
                Data on losses over the years say that the Germans beat the Red Army with a rather devastating score for the first couple of years - up to 10 to 1 is not in our favor.
                By the middle of the war, the Red Army was rebuilt and gained combat experience. Losses equalized.
                In the second half of the war, the Russians (Soviet) beat the Germans practically "in one wicket" - the situation was mirrored.
                The final ratio turned out to be about 1,3 to 1, still not in our favor, but taking into account the fact that the war ended in Berlin, the Red Army could "fill the units" as much as it wanted.
                According to some estimates, it turned out to be 1 to 1 adjusted for the number of survivors in captivity (Germans died in Soviet captivity less, with an approximately equal total number of prisoners).
                1. The comment was deleted.
                2. -6
                  5 June 2016 06: 43
                  Ours scored a huge number of prisoners after ... surrender !!! - This was the main core of those hundreds of thousands who went to rebuild the country. They grabbed everyone who was in uniform loaded into wagons and sent to the USSR - Then all this total figure began to appear as prisoners that is, those captured during the hostilities. But many hundreds of thousands were taken at the end of the hostilities, when after surrender the German troops began to surrender en masse. And all of this many thousands were added to the captured as surrendered during the hostilities. An interesting German story was told by a German-born Kenegsberg girl who was then a 6-year-old girl. After the capitulation of the city, they were forced to form columns (she was with her mother) and they walked in circles, the Russians sat at a long table with a red tablecloth, and considered captured. They drove in circles and counted time after time. So far they haven’t hit the numbers. Her name is Mathilda Moeck. Now she is about 80 years old. Then they were loaded onto ships (ours) and deported to Germany (at the end of hostilities. All this was heard personally when I met her in Kenegsberg in 2008.
                  1. +3
                    5 June 2016 07: 55
                    Quote: Denker
                    They drove in circles and counted time after time.
                    Are you really idiot or are you just pretending? Explain why it was necessary to "lead in circles" of civilians with children, when the winners could easily attribute any number of those taken prisoner? Before whom did you drive in circles? And, well, yes, in front of the "long table with a red tablecloth" .. And, most importantly, for what? For a certain Mathilda Moeck, 70 years later, to tell you the burning truth?
                    By the way, she was not raped for an hour? But Goebbels propaganda claimed that the Russians raped all Germans aged 6 to 80 years. And types like you. readily pick up horror stories about 2 million raped German women.
                    1. The comment was deleted.
                    2. -6
                      5 June 2016 09: 17
                      You ask the one who was driven in circles then in the year 45. It does not seem to me that an old woman 80 years old has lied. And stop you insulting me already, or I’ll chew your tongue out and spit it out so that you can’t lick your testicles or tickle them with your antennae
                      No one likes the truth. Here's a paraffinized example of rape. A tank commander in Germany went to look for his crew, lost somewhere in the town and found them, one reclined on a German and dryuchit her, and the others took a fan somewhere and fanned his ass. After comments, he was offended very much and his comrades told that his whole family the Germans drowned in a well in the village. I didn’t approach him with the topic of rape. The tank driver told the girl, commander of the platoon, to take her to a tank. That village, they drove out of town to the location. Then the girl was tied by the legs with ropes? Ropes? and tore into two. The whole platoon was shot at the commander’s platoon. Do you want to continue? A couple-raped everything in the first 2 weeks that moved, that didn’t move, moved and raped. Continue? -Spas order to stop all kinds of crimes against the civilian population. They raped massively !!! - including Americans and Poles. Stoned with propaganda
                      1. +1
                        6 June 2016 11: 46
                        Well, yes ... and also Russians (nowadays) cut people into pieces and throw them into the sewers.
                        This, by the way, is true.
                        It’s just that a couple of maniacs do it for multimillion people, and these maniacs, when caught, are planted forever.
                        And in those days, soldiers and officers for such things were SHOT and shot several hundred or even thousands - that was why.
                        But all this against the background of 10 million troops stat error - two-headed people about the same.
                  2. +1
                    6 June 2016 11: 43
                    and she was raped ten times and robbed five.

                    Of course, damn it, the Germans were captured mainly at the end of the war, and ours were taken at the beginning. Total and the Germans were held captive less time (at least wartime) than the Soviet ... This had a positive effect on statistics in itself.
                3. -1
                  6 June 2016 12: 25
                  Quote: Philip Staros

                  Data on losses over the years say that the Germans beat the Red Army with a rather devastating score for the first couple of years - up to 10 to 1 is not in our favor.

                  then how to perceive the data of 41 years, when on KV-1A our Germans were beaten with a crushing score of 20 to one? Well, why are you talking nonsense? Isn’t it yourself disgusting?
                  Examine carefully the structure of statistics numbers.
                  In 41, there were a lot of problems for the Red Army - in fact, the 5 millionth army was only a third of the army, the rest were "in the ranks", but they were far from the regular army. Now imagine that this mass is still divided into 3 parts and it is smashed in parts by the same 5 million, but trained and well-prepared, who managed to become an army.
                  In fact, the Germans in the summer of 41 everywhere had a numerical superiority of 2-3 times + technical superiority. And the tank mechanized corps, which just protected a mass of unprepared infantry from defeat, became a victim of circumstances and a number of miscalculations.
              2. The comment was deleted.
              3. -6
                5 June 2016 06: 32
                How many kilometers are from the western new border to Moscow? How long did the Germans go to Moscow? And they didn’t go in a straight line, they stomped a couple of thousand kilometers? For 4 and a half months, maybe a little more ..- Here are the facts and the defenders of Brest and Sevastopol do not relate to this topic. Or did he crawl for such a time before Moscow crawled?
        3. +8
          4 June 2016 11: 20
          Quote: godofwar6699
          especially in world 2

          And excuse me, you can ask who was in Berlin then?
          You are now tearing up mattresses of farts, telling everyone that you won the Third Reich, but in fact you sat like a rat to the last, opening a second front only when it became clear that the USSR was pushing the Germans.
          By the way, you can remember Operation Cottage ... a very funny story. Would you like to talk about it? laughing
          1. 0
            6 June 2016 12: 54
            Well, not quite right. still, the Americans, unlike the British, at least went to battle normally, during the day they flew for bombing. And the British, rats, mostly at night.
            Do not forget that at the beginning of the war the Americans had almost nothing to fight. 2 dull armored divisions equipped with anything.
            The fact that they are credited with a one-man victory is an utter lie, but the Americans of the 40s were far from all cowards - this is a fact.
        4. +2
          4 June 2016 11: 55
          On this subject, you should contact Senator McCain. He will tell in detail about the surrender, etc. wassat
        5. 0
          4 June 2016 22: 20
          What are you hanging!!? Look at the map! The size of Russia does not mean anything? Draw conclusions.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. -4
            5 June 2016 09: 22
            My dear, did you look at the map of Russia yourself? Do you sniff at all at what speed did the Germans advance? in a straight line under 1000 km to Moscow, but they didn’t walk in a straight line! And the size of Russia doesn’t tell me anything at all, basically, the speed during the promotion is important to me !!! what does the EP have to do with it? BORDERS AND TIME PASSED TO MOSCOW !!!
            1. +1
              6 June 2016 13: 02
              the Germans reached Moscow by the end of September and began in June.
              therefore, they walked for about 110 days 1000/110 - about 10 km / day.
              I roughly estimate it. Yes, the speed is actually high, but it’s worth considering that
              almost half the way - Belarus and part of other areas they slipped through without a fight.
              But against whom? The Red Army then had a complete thrash with transport! Not that tanks - even trucks were few. Almost all units were on horseback with traction. They were easily circumvented by mechanized groups, which was why it turned out to move fast.
              It was not such that the Germans smashed a 1000 km continuous mass of troops. In fact, on the way to Moscow time there were only 3 large barriers. And a few hassles for 1-3 days.
        6. 0
          6 June 2016 04: 11
          Quote: godofwar6699
          especially in world 2


          The Russian war with the Germans ended in Berlin.
    4. +13
      4 June 2016 07: 59
      Quote: godofwar6699
      there is no chance y Moscow.
      Riley, US-Hey country gritist! US Navy the best he the world! "Moscow" hev but chance against ze "Nimitz"!
      Actually, to calm the Americans, such slogans are just right. With any evidence and arguments for their position, types like godofwar6699 do not bother.
      Quote: godofwar6699
      there is no point explaining to you. if you know anything about Nimitz then there would be no questions.
      The only thing is that the US propaganda video can be screwed up as a justification for its position. Scary, damn it, already terrible! Scare the Papuans, wretched.
    5. +4
      4 June 2016 08: 03
      justify !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but Washington has no chance!
      1. -26
        4 June 2016 08: 20
        Quote: free
        justify !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but Washington has no chance!


        USS Washington (SSN-787) has a good chance wink
        1. +7
          4 June 2016 08: 30
          "Good luck Cheetah!" Although it is already going to the next generation, such as the Husky. lol

          1. +2
            4 June 2016 14: 24
            Quote: kugelblitz
            Good Path Cheetah! "Although it is already going to the next generation

            So far, the hope is only on modernized submarines of old projects and on Ash. Husky will appear no earlier than 2030, and maybe later.
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. +2
          4 June 2016 11: 34
          Quote: godofwar6699
          USS Washington (SSN-787) has a good chance

          MAPL SEVERODVINSK. No chance!
        4. +5
          4 June 2016 11: 58
          Quote: godofwar6699
          justify !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but Washington has no chance!


          USS Washington (SSN-787) have a good chance wink

          This can only be clarified in practice, for example, during maneuvers (not war, of course!)
          And so it’s just useless breaking copies.
          Remember, dear godofwar6699, how the US asss competed with the Indians on the Su-30 export version? First in India and then in the states, and both times they lost miserably!
          1. 0
            4 June 2016 14: 25
            Quote: GSH-18
            Remember, dear godofwar6699, how the US asss competed with the Indians on the Su-30 export version? First in India and then in the states, and both times they lost miserably!

            As far as I remember in this training battle, no one turned on the radar and did not interfere, so everything is not clear there.
            1. +3
              4 June 2016 20: 20
              Quote: Lt. air force reserve
              As far as I remember in this training battle, no one turned on the radar and did not interfere, so everything is not clear there.

              But in the states, the Indians were forbidden to use the coordination of the controller and turn on the radar at full power, while the Americans were supported by AWACS and their other quirks. Here is such an unequal situation that absolutely did not help the mattress. And the Indians, mind you, on the export Su-30s kicked their ass like little boys! lol
          2. -1
            6 June 2016 13: 06
            the Indians kicked their ass, just don’t forget that the Indians were on the latest aircraft, and the United States used the older version of the F-20C interceptor for 15 years,
            which even the Su-27 had to exceed in terms of performance.
        5. -1
          4 June 2016 14: 23
          Quote: godofwar6699
          USS Washington (SSN-787) has a good chance

          Well, what's the chance? Virginia has torpedoes with a range of 50 km, harpoons 70 km. Sonars will work in Moscow in active mode + anti-submarine helicopters.
          Suppose Virginia is almost silent as in an advertisement for passive means (hydrophones), but it clearly will not be hidden from active sonars. It is unlikely that the submarine is capable of absorbing the powerful signals of the SAC of Moscow, which will obviously be reflected from the submarine and detected by the cruiser.
          1. 0
            6 June 2016 13: 12
            the effectiveness of active sonar drops dramatically with distance,
            but an active sonar is an excellent target heard from afar.
            Finding a submarine for a cruiser is not an easy task.
            As for the helicopter submarines, the main hope is for passive buoys. Active will reach within a radius of 2-3 km, not more. Again, finding submarines is not easy for helicopters.
            The best option is a specialized anti-submarine aircraft. But there is no such option in the cruiser option, as in the rest, and the aircraft carrier.
          2. 0
            7 June 2016 16: 04
            Now they are naming me, but unfortunately (SORRY LADIES) we are blind, the HOOK doesn’t even see our own boats as strangers. For us, the danger is not ticonderogs and berks, but submarines
          3. 0
            7 June 2016 16: 04
            Now they are naming me, but unfortunately (SORRY LADIES) we are blind, the HOOK doesn’t even see our own boats as strangers. For us, the danger is not ticonderogs and berks, but submarines
      2. -9
        4 June 2016 14: 50
        Cho argue, Moscow is such a single ... And how many? -10? -Well, not one AUG will suit 2-3 AUG- Americans are not fools .. And they will tear Moscow apart as a heating pad, which the great-grandmother laid down for a poo. Because they even have pilots far away and all that, they will discover even when our Moscow will be from them in the three-ninth kingdom, do not build illusions - no one will cause this ship to fight for a miracle. They know its strengths and weaknesses.
        1. +3
          4 June 2016 15: 03
          Quote: Denker
          Cho argue that Moscow is such a one ..

          And what about Marshal Ustinov and Varyag?

          Quote: Denker
          .Ah how much? -

          AUG, not ASU ...
          Quote: Denker
          -Well, not one AUG fit but 2-3 AUG

          Now in the ocean 1-2 AUG dangles no more ... the rest are at the berths.
          Quote: Denker
          And they will tear Moscow apart as a heating pad, which the great-grandmother laid under.

          Not a fact, dear.
          Quote: Denker
          Because they have distant pilots and so on, and they’ll find out when our Moscow will be from them in the three-ninth kingdom,

          I wonder what drones these are?
          Quote: Denker
          They know her strengths and weaknesses.

          So are we.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. -3
            4 June 2016 15: 43
            Moscow alone, three, what's the difference? -AUG 5 will fit and it will break. Previously it was necessary to build. Divorced. We have almost no planes and they take off from the deck. And let them stand at the berths, how they stand and sail away. Are you Do you compare? A fleet that has not been modernized for 25 years and has not been built can you catch up with the United States in 4-6 years? -What are you mocking?
            1. +5
              4 June 2016 15: 56
              Quote: Denker
              One Moscow, three, what's the difference? -A suitable 5 AUG-and break.

              They won’t do, because in this case, the Volcanoes will not end ... but there will be a launch of missiles with nuclear warheads, and all these floating airfields will be blown off the surface.
              Quote: Denker
              What do you compare? A fleet that has not been modernized for 25 years and has not been built will be able to catch up with the United States in 4-6 years?

              And who is talking about catching up with mattresses then? Dear, we have different doctrines. They have offensive, we have defensive ...
              Quote: Denker
              They do not wash duck skating will tear these troughs to shreds ...

              By not washing it in such a way when a large number of aircraft carriers are concentrated in one place, all the nuclear forces of the triad are automatically put on alert. So roll out the mattresses will not work, even if they tear their fart to pieces.
              1. The comment was deleted.
              2. -2
                4 June 2016 20: 31
                The nuclear triad is already from a completely different story. I'm not talking about nuclear weapons now
              3. The comment was deleted.
              4. -5
                4 June 2016 22: 10
                Why are you all for nuclear weapons grabbing like a woman for a strap-on! -Not about nuclear weapons !!! - and if we don’t need to catch up with the US fleet, how to wash it then? We need to catch up! -And surpass it !!! !!! plug his belt !!! - Otherwise, no way !!! At least with what doctrine! And nuclear weapons will also have to use the spirit! -This is not a mortar mine to be lowered into the barrel! -Because you are the notorious nuclear weapons You need to be able to use conventional weapons, or they grab onto a nuclear club as arguments end
                1. +4
                  4 June 2016 23: 25
                  Quote: Denker
                  Why are you all for nuclear weapons grab like a woman for a strapon!

                  Dear, you first started broadcasting about 5 AUGs, not me ... the article proposes to consider the situation with a warrant from Moscow against one AUG.
                  Quote: Denker
                  It’s necessary to catch up! —And it is necessary to overtake !!! - It is necessary to plug it in a belt !!! - Otherwise, no way !!! At least with what doctrine!

                  I won’t catch up ... the USSR didn’t catch up and we don’t need it. I’ll explain why ... first we’ll economically tear ourselves. Second: with the defensive doctrine, 11 aircraft carriers are not needed. What is the United States? It’s a maritime power, and we are continental. Therefore The United States invests most of the budget in the fleet, and we in the land component. Yes, and military budgets are not comparable: mattresses have more than 600 lard, and we have about 60.
                  Quote: Denker
                  You must be able to use conventional weapons, you grab a nuclear club as arguments

                  Ask yourself a simple question - what would happen if we didn’t have nuclear weapons? I’ll answer you ... we would be crushed by high-precision weapons, both from the sea and from the air (even without using our nuclear weapons). there are many more ships and submarines on the mattresses (and I don’t think the whole NATO unit). Moreover, they have more personnel and a satellite constellation ... even in the number of Tamagavks against our Caliber they have an advantage at times .. Therefore, nuclear weapons are called the deterrence weapon in our country.
                  Something like this ... sorry for the truth, but here it is today.
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                  2. -3
                    5 June 2016 10: 37
                    There were no words about nuclear weapons in the article. And about the USSR, they didn’t catch up? -You are right, but we need bbbb ... we must !!!! we must !!! we catch up !!!! There is no such word, we can not !!! - you forget this word once and for all! !! - not a fleet of ducks in a stingy with the army you need to catch up and overtake !!!! It’s a pity that we can only hold nuclear weapons, but agree that this is not a panacea! -Americans are not stupid and will do everything to unbalance it !!! - Oh, if you started as I thought to myself then, in the year 2004-2006 duck, to start all this with armatures, ships and modernization ... and now .... Stalin at that time didn’t have a hard time in 4 years, and we .... Yes, even to mind this ghoul climbs-Serdyukov, and others like him ...
            2. 0
              4 June 2016 20: 47
              Five six AUGs is the maximum that the Americans can set against us, we have against them Kuzya, Petya, Moscow, Varyag, and seven underwater carriers of HEAVY long-range missiles, the Americans simply have no chance.
          3. -3
            4 June 2016 15: 49
            Three pieces of ento are good, but NATO's country has as many as 37 corvettes, or whatever, are the newest destroyers? -Do not they have enough for all NATO, Japan has as many as 37? Or how many newest corvettes are there? -6 with the notorious. In a couple of years, the economy will be bent, where can I get money for such projects?
            1. -2
              4 June 2016 20: 51
              You are all about ships, and an article about missiles in which Russia has an overwhelming advantage
              1. +3
                4 June 2016 23: 29
                Quote: KaPToC
                You are all about ships, and an article about missiles in which Russia has an overwhelming advantage

                What kind of missiles? If the Caliber, then at times less than the Tamagavkov ... if you are talking about nuclear weapons, then there is relative parity. As for the RCC, the quantity of mattresses is quantitatively superior, but not qualitatively.
                1. -1
                  4 June 2016 23: 43
                  Quote: NEXUS
                  then at times less than their Tamagavks ...


                  Tamagotchi, but Tomahawku
                2. 0
                  5 June 2016 00: 39
                  Well, with the RCC quantitatively, they are not very superior.
                  Well, at least ship-based anti-ship missiles (probably they have more of them in the air). I read that now they don’t even have harpoons on destroyers - they removed the PU! And what is really done out of the tamahawks is not clear - did they manage to put them on corbles, or do they promise yet?
                  If they promise, then here we are, Zircons are coming :)

                  In general, the US fleet is an order of magnitude stronger than the Russian. It is a fact. So our fleet in the fight against the US as an independent force does not look more like an instrument of coastal defense combined with coastal assets.
                3. 0
                  5 June 2016 09: 05
                  I’m talking about anti-ship cruise missiles, but we are considering a hypothetical non-nuclear battle of the fleets, and what about the tomahawks. Russia has a qualitative superiority in missiles. Large supersonic long-range Russian missiles against small American subsonic missiles with medium range.
          4. -3
            6 June 2016 11: 05
            But the AWACS are deck-based or have you never heard of such?
        2. 0
          4 June 2016 23: 14
          Quote: Denker
          And how many?

          ASU is FIVE laughing
          1. -1
            6 June 2016 11: 23
            ASU, judging by the intellect, you’ll just be crowing ... one of the readers correctly said when he looked here for a spark so 3 years later such a good resource was fouled with all sorts of scum and pod-licks, podzdysh and that kind of rubbish. Not a single knowledgeable person.
          2. -2
            6 June 2016 11: 23
            ASU, judging by the intellect, you’ll just be crowing ... one of the readers correctly said when he looked here for a spark so 3 years later such a good resource was fouled with all sorts of scum and pod-licks, podzdysh and that kind of rubbish. Not a single knowledgeable person.
        3. 0
          6 June 2016 13: 08
          the impression is that we are talking about a spherical horse in a vacuum.
          You still mobilize the entire US fleet against a single cruiser.
          so what? you can drive 40 pieces of merchant ships, and sooner or later they will ram the cruiser, he just doesn’t have enough anti-ship weapons to send everyone to the bottom.
    6. +1
      4 June 2016 09: 32
      I agree for the absurdity, but it just will be, and what are the chances of anyone in this confrontation, we learn only from practice, t-t-t

      as well as the gymnastics of the mind
    7. The comment was deleted.
    8. +1
      4 June 2016 10: 01
      Quote: godofwar6699
      this is absurd, "Nimitz" against "Moscow"

      there is no chance y Moscow.

      This is absurd, * Moscow * against * Nimitz * fool * Nimitz * has no chance hi Similarly .sir.
      1. +3
        4 June 2016 11: 45
        Quote: unsinkable
        This is absurd, * Moscow * against * Nimitz * There is no chance for * Nimitz * Similarly, sir.

        Everything would be fine if it weren’t for one thing ... in the AUG, as well as in the composition of our warrant, there are MAPLs ... and the question is whether there are any chances for Nimitz or for Moscow most likely to be solved in such a confrontation not in the air or on water, and under water, maybe, the main threat to our order is precisely the nuclear submarines in the AUG.
        1. +3
          4 June 2016 12: 12
          Quote: NEXUS
          in such a confrontation it will be decided not in the air or on the water, but under the water, since the main threat to our warrant is precisely the nuclear submarines in the AUG.

          The first thing our ship group faces in the open ocean in the event of a conflict is the massive air strike of the RCC, and beyond that, everything else. Why? In fact, the radius of control of the AUG is much larger than a conventional, non-carrier ship group. Next, there will be an unrequited accumulation of damage from massive strikes by air defense missiles, which will reduce the combat effectiveness and stability of the naval group. And only then will the nuclear submarines come that ours, that they are at a launch distance. Their designation will be. I don’t know for ours request
          In the coastal zone of our coastal infrastructure, the situation would be radically different. But AUG, realizing this will not come close. Thus, our ships are locked up near their shores, without air support on the high seas. Is the conclusion clear? We need to have at least a couple of Carriers to guarantee a confrontation between the American AUG and the NATO carrier groups.
          1. +4
            4 June 2016 15: 40
            If we generally consider the doctrine of both the USSR and Russia at the moment, we will see that the doctrine is for the most part defensive and asymmetric.
            In fact, in our country, only nuclear submarine strategists can be called "shock", and then with a stretch, since they are for the most part a deterrent weapon.
            The cruiser "Moskva" in fact is not intended to seize dominance in the oceans, there was no such thing in the doctrine. Its direct purpose was to protect distant coastlines, subject to the sea's outlet to the ocean (far east) and to conduct hostilities in the inland seas (Black, Baltic, and Mediterranean waters, partly Okhotsk).
            If we consider the options for using it in inland seas, then all the advantages are on the face of "Moscow", subject to interaction with coastal services.
            If we consider options for use in the oceans, then unfortunately the advantage is in the AUG.

            Each weapon is created for its own purposes and tasks, and comparing, as usual, with a finger, is simply stupid. Finger for one, oops for another .....
          2. 0
            4 June 2016 20: 53
            Six Hornets are physically unable to deliver a massive blow.
        2. 0
          4 June 2016 18: 00
          Quote: NEXUS
          Korea in all such a confrontation will not be decided in the air or on the water, but under water,

          I agree with you, my friend, but I really wanted to wipe this unproven strategist. hi
    9. +2
      4 June 2016 11: 46
      Quote: godofwar6699
      this is absurd, "Nimitz" against "Moscow" fool

      there is no chance y Moscow. hi

      In the coastal zone, the chances of “Moscow” HAVE, and even what! But in the oceanic zone, yes, here I completely agree with you.
      1. +2
        4 June 2016 11: 55
        Quote: GSH-18
        But in the ocean zone, yes

        ... I believe that even for the USSR, the task of blocking / destroying the transatlantic bridge between Europe and North America, in addition to the Navy, was duplicated by the Strategic Missile Forces: ICBMs for US ports, RSD - for places of planned unloading in Europe.
    10. 0
      4 June 2016 11: 51
      Quote: godofwar6699
      there is no chance y Moscow.

      Of course, Russia has no chance at all against the United States! wink
    11. 0
      4 June 2016 13: 08
      why clog a branch with aimless chatter, imagine arguments, no then don’t flood com 6699
    12. 0
      6 June 2016 13: 19
      Well, well, are you aware that the Americans banned their aircraft carriers from being in the zone of destruction of granites? They still run on the basis of this limitation.
    13. 0
      6 June 2016 19: 20
      And I liked the article! Not an expert, maybe on this! ))) Yes, and few chtol articles, and even books of laudatory Americans write tons of their AUG? Is there a lot of data accurate to a gram?
  3. cap
    +10
    4 June 2016 06: 47
    “Much is seen in a completely different light if we delve into the technical details that a doctor of military sciences should know better than any civilian analyst. However, judging by the number and intensity of passions in articles on this topic, it is unlikely that the expert wanted to convey to us any then their knowledge on this subject. It is more likely about the formation of an appropriate public opinion. Advantageous for our overseas "partner", which is more powerful in information wars, but not in military technologies. "

    Maxson "Cut" (c)! good
  4. +3
    4 June 2016 06: 55
    An interesting article, everything is reasoned and laid out on the shelves! Without hysterics, everything was lost or URY patriotism.
  5. +4
    4 June 2016 06: 57
    We will take the author’s word for it. Because God forbid to check all this in business. The article is interesting. thank
  6. +2
    4 June 2016 07: 27
    This "god of war" went through all with minuses. I compensated whenever possible.
  7. 0
    4 June 2016 07: 29
    And why did the author decide that 500 kg of explosives would sink an aircraft carrier? After all, a rocket flying above water at supersonic speed will fall into the surface part of an aircraft carrier, i.e. board. This is not a torpedo. Yes, the hole will be large, but mainly on the surface. So that the water will enter the compartments of the ship only through part of the underwater section of the hole. In addition, the compartments of the aircraft carrier are hermetically isolated and the flooded compartment can always be isolated.
    1. +6
      4 June 2016 07: 33
      Aircraft carrier - a powder keg. 500kg of explosives, plus rocket speed, plus supplies of BP and jet fuel will turn all its insides into minced meat. So drown. It may not immediately, but it will burn, explode and drown.
    2. +6
      4 June 2016 07: 39
      Kinetic energy enhances the effect, in addition, the rocket engine flying even after the explosion easily breaks through several more bulkheads, and sometimes even blows through. And everything burns with a blue flame. It is proved by tests. wassat
    3. +7
      4 June 2016 07: 45
      Most likely it will stay afloat, only he will cease to fulfill the functions of an aircraft carrier, and he will have to quietly return for repairs if they do not finish it.
      1. +3
        4 June 2016 09: 45
        That is: the goal of the strike will be achieved in any case. The aircraft carrier was withdrawn from battle and put in for repair for at least a couple of years. During this time, the database will end.
  8. +5
    4 June 2016 07: 54
    The author is fine, and why it’s not described how all this will happen under conditions of active jamming, why the AWAC is not mentioned, as if he had nothing more to do in Nimitz’s hangar, and where the submarines have security orders, at that moment they will also find work , and intelligence satellites, and the role of destroyers warrants?
    1. +6
      4 June 2016 08: 46
      Quote: sa-ag
      The author is excellent, and why it is not described how all this will happen in the face of active jamming, why the AWAC is not mentioned, as if he had nothing more to do as in a hangar


      /// here - http://topwar.ru/23777-uhod-ameriki-zhestkiy-scenariy-kitayskiy.html
      here is a description with a kortinka laughing -
      Care America. Hard script, Chinese ...
      Chinese technical personnel, who had slipped into Tanzania a few months before the war, had clear orders that under any circumstances forbade anything to be done until the United States began active hostilities. A short radio message announcing the destruction of the northern radar stations lifted this ban. The calculations knew that they could only have a few minutes before the American bombs began to fall on them. Their mission was precisely defined by the logic of “use or die,” and therefore everything that arrived in containers rose into the air in less than ten minutes.

      The reports of the survivors of what happened on board the ships of the task force for the next hour were confused and sometimes contradictory, but apparently the radar spotted about a thousand targets that suddenly appeared on the horizon from the south-west. At least half of them were fake echoes, electronic false targets made by the Chinese “spoofing” technology, and many of the remaining ones were physical baits designed to divert fire from supersonic cruise missiles, which were the main threat. Nevertheless, even by the most conservative estimates, there were at least two hundred of them. The task force had anti-missile defense, which was one of the best in the world, but even decades before the incident, naval strategists had determined that a fairly massive attack would surely reach the goal.

      These cold mathematical calculations still invariably worked in the chaos of explosions, burning fuel, drifting garbage, dead and dying sailors and soldiers. Of the forty-one ships of the operational group, three came intact to the Gulf of Mombasa and eight more - including one of the landing ships - were able, despite damage, to make their way to the Kenyan coast and disembark the surviving crew and passengers. The rest were destroyed and burned or went to the bottom. The fate of the three aircraft carriers was typical: "John F. Kennedy" with a small interval received a hit of three cruise missiles and sank with almost everyone who was on board; "Ronald Reagan" got two missiles, caught fire and was left by the crew; “George Washington” was hit in the stern, despite heavy damage to the steering system, headed for the shore and sat down on the shallows near the Kenyan shore. A Japanese news photographer took a photo of an abandoned ship — a broken, ghostlike, with a tilted deck, washed by the surf — and this photo, distributed in the following days by media around the world, became for many a symbol of the East African War.
    2. +1
      4 June 2016 13: 00
      Quote: sa-ag
      and where are the submarines security warrants

      The article seems to be called CD against Avik. With this combination, Nimitz has no chance, but this is fantastic. Avik will not go anywhere without cover, and "Moskva" will never hunt the AUG alone.
      But the means and measures for the destruction of the AUG are an interesting topic. But within the framework of this forum ... it’s completely stupid. It looks like a song ... and we have gas in our apartment ..
    3. +4
      4 June 2016 13: 08
      Quote: Dimon19661
      As a person who has been involved in the fleet for more than 20 years, I’ll say frankly that the article is not correct. Comparison of ships of completely different classes, different tactics of use, and different purposes is somewhat inappropriate. The author takes all the performance characteristics of firing stations from open sources without taking into account the actual experience of combat use, which is absolutely wrong, even I would say - an incomprehensible comparison. The author should clearly understand, in modern conditions, the main advantage is the primary detection of the enemy. Those who first discovered have a serious advantage, and with a probability of 70 to 90 percent will win the fight. (With more or less equal opponents) Accordingly, the aircraft carrier with its AWACS aircraft, the possibility of over-the-horizon detection is much higher. On this site, in general, many authors raising the sea theme think of naval battle at the Tsushima level, in the best case of Midway, alas, times have changed a lot, as have the means of detection and delivery. And believe me, dear author, I would not want to be on the ship that is trying to AK-630 or GOLKIPERA to bring down the cruise missile going at him. The military men will understand me.

      I agree. The author is burning). In truth, one should not forget that there will be warships with weapons, plus submarines. The article is interesting, but not finalized; much of the author did not take into account. And I can not stand urya-patriots, they are worse than mishandled.
  9. 0
    4 June 2016 07: 57
    Many thanks to the author for the in-depth analysis and ease of presentation of thoughts. The article is certainly a well-deserved plus
  10. +9
    4 June 2016 08: 08
    For an attempt at an objective analysis to the author and the article "Respect". About the performance characteristics of anti-ship missiles, air defense systems and strike aircraft carrier aviation is not perfect, but I also agree (taken from publicly available sources). But "for the purity of the experiment" comparing ONLY the American AUG and ONLY the "Moscow" detachment with the nuclear submarine, the question of the reconnaissance and target designation capabilities of both formations was completely omitted. I can assume that the Americans hope for Hawkeye and Aegis Radar. What will play for our group and with what opportunities? The article mentions the detection range of the attacking anti-ship missile system of 35 km. How to find the AUG at a distance of 1000 km to launch the Vulcan?
    1. +1
      4 June 2016 08: 16
      A group of reconnaissance satellites, for example, barrage in a specific area of ​​a submarine. For example, the P-700 Granite as part of the complex on submarine pr. 949 has satellite target designation.
      Legs grow from the old P-6 complex, where the Tu-95RC sent data to the boat and it sent the missile towards the warrant until it was captured by the AGSN.
    2. +1
      4 June 2016 09: 15
      Quote: Scharnhorst
      How to find the AUG at a distance of 1000 km to launch the Vulcan?

      ... for today, until the space component is fully deployed, in peacetime, in the conditions of the Middle East - oceanographic and radio measuring vessels, aerial reconnaissance, data from merchant ships, for preliminary target designation ...
    3. +1
      4 June 2016 13: 20
      Quote: Scharnhorst
      How to find the AUG at a distance of 1000 km to launch the Vulcan?

      Here is a detailed explanation of the professionals.
      http://blackseafleet-21.com/news/4-05-2014_razvedyvatelno-porazhajuschie-sistemy
      -vmf-retrospektiva
  11. The comment was deleted.
    1. +4
      4 June 2016 08: 39
      Now more satellites decide, i.e. AUG will be monitored almost from the moment it leaves the base, as well as tracking joint submarine movements with it. The same applies to the RK Moscow, which will have PLO ships and submarines in its warrant.
      Those. an equation with known values, and then part of the first wave missiles that the RK will inflict due to the much greater RCC range, but will cause irreparable damage to the ACG, in turn, some of the aircraft will break through the RCC and will probably touch something, but by virtue rocket weaknesses they will be less, i.e. get everything in full.
      Separately, under water will go their battles, but there will depend on the skill of submariners.
      1. +9
        4 June 2016 10: 14
        Quote: kugelblitz
        Now more satellites decide, i.e. AUG will be monitored almost from the moment it leaves the base

        Fleet-82 Naval Exercises of the United States Pacific Fleet (September 1982)
        11 September 1982 year, Saturday. Our Pacific Fleet has just completed the final annual exercise. All ships returned to base. Tasks have been worked out to combat the enemy’s carrier strike force near our coast, ensure that our SSBNs leave the base for military service, landings, coastal defense, etc.
        The actual situation in the zone of the fleet. The latest intelligence of the Pacific Fleet. The carrier-based strike group led by the nuclear aircraft carrier Enterprise, having made the transition from San Diego to Pearl Harbor and after refueling the escort ships, began to evolve in a northwesterly direction towards Kamchatka (which is unusual at all, but it did not pay much attention ). Data on AUG is confirmed by space, coastal radio reconnaissance and our reconnaissance ship conducting intelligence in the Hawaii area.
        The second main object of intelligence - the aircraft carrier "Midway" as part of an aircraft carrier group on Thursday 9 September left the base in Yokosuka (Japan), was discovered by our reconnaissance ship "Kursograf", but withdrew from tracking and went to the south westward towards the Strait of Malacca.
        The second day, the Midway aircraft carrier was not marked in radio communications. Space intelligence also does not observe it. Our coastal reconnaissance, which controlled the radio networks of the operational control of the US armed forces, did not pay attention to the fact that the training signals of the military command ceased to be transmitted on the radio networks. That is, the radio networks were put on high alert for the transfer of actual combat orders.
        On the same day, a pair of reconnaissance aircraft TU-95 of the RC of 304-ODRAP flew from the airfield Khorol to the central part of the Pacific Ocean to clarify the location of the AUG "Enterprise". As it turned out, when flying east of the Kuril Islands, the operator of the radar in the porthole found a group of lights, but did not attach any importance to this, since he was faced with the task of detecting the AUG Enterprise. With this task, the pilots successfully coped. In fact, they flew just above the AUG "Midway" ships, which covertly deployed under Kamchatka towards the AUG "Enterprise" to form an aircraft carrier strike force (AUS).
        On Saturday evening, reports were received on fires in the barracks of our direction finding stations on about. Iturup and B. Providence at intervals of 10 hours. This greatly complicated the work of our direction finding network. It is possible that this was the actual development of the American special forces “SEAL” (“fur seals”) in our territory.
        12 September, Sunday. In the morning, at the order of the Navy's General Staff, a pair of TU-16R reconnaissance aircraft of the 169 mixed air regiment of the Pacific Fleet takes off from the Yelizovo airport (Kamchatka) to reconnaissance AUG Enterprise. According to their report, they were intercepted by carrier-based carrier-based fighter aircraft. And another puncture. In the report, they do not indicate the types of fighters that accompanied them. As it turned out from the pictures, they were intercepted by F-4 Phantom fighters, which remained only on the Midway aircraft carrier. The remaining aircraft carriers were re-equipped with new Tomcat F-14 fighters.
        1. +6
          4 June 2016 10: 17
          Extension
          Thus, we remained in the dark about where the Midway AUG is located. And only on the afternoon of Sunday, a report was received from our coastal radio squadron in Kamchatka that our posts commemorate the work of the ships at frequencies of the AUG Midway intra-firing link.
          It was a shock. The radio finding results showed that the newly formed carrier-assault strike compound (Enterprise and Midway), consisting of more than 30 ships, maneuvers 300 miles southeast of Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky and conducts flights of deck aircraft at a distance of 150 km from our coast.
          Urgent report to the headquarters of the Navy. Commander-in-Chief of the Navy Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov SG make a decision immediately. Urgently send the Sentry Guard patrol ship, three 671 RTM multi-purpose nuclear submarines to track the AUS, organize continuous aerial reconnaissance, bring the entire naval carrier of the Pacific Fleet fully operational, establish close cooperation with the air defense system in the Far East, and bring it into full combat readiness all parts and ships of the intelligence of the Pacific Fleet.
          In response to such aggressive actions by the Americans to prepare for the departure a naval division of the naval-carrying aviation in readiness, on Monday to designate an airborne missile attack on an aircraft carrier. At the same time, multi-purpose nuclear-powered submarines with cruise missiles were also preparing to strike.
          13 September, Monday. The Pacific Fleet reconnaissance will have to locate the AUS and direct the air division of naval missile-carrying aircraft. But at this time on the ships of the aircraft carrier of the United States introduced radio silence. All radar stations are off. We carefully study the data of optoelectronic space intelligence. There are no reliable data on the whereabouts of aircraft carriers. Nevertheless, the departure of MRA aviation from Kamchatka took place. To an empty place.
          Only a day later, on Tuesday, 14 of September, we learn from the data of the air defense posts in the Kuril Islands that the carrier-based strike force is maneuvering east of the island of Paramushir (the Kuril Islands), conducting flights of carrier-based aircraft.
          Then they managed to send the sentry ship “Storozheva” to the aircraft carriers (TCR “Watchdog” at one time gained notoriety at the Main Command of the Navy after the well-known events in the Baltic Sea connected with the hijacking of the ship in 1975 under the command of the Kremlin’s politician. the crew was disbanded, and the ship was transferred from the Baltic to Kamchatka). Now this ship has become a direct tracking ship for the AUS. Multipurpose submarines sent to monitor the American AUS did not quite cope with their tasks, as this is the most difficult task for the submarine commander. It is necessary to try to be undetected in the composition of the order of connection.
          Ultimately, the US carrier strike force passed east of the Kuril Islands, revealing the capabilities of the Soviet air defense to protect its borders. The apotheosis of this transition was the violation of the airspace of the USSR in the area of ​​the Small Kuril chain (the islands of Tanfiliev, Anchuchin, Yuri, Polonsky, Green, Shikotan) by aircraft of carrier-based aircraft. It turned out that our "all-weather" fighter aircraft, represented by outdated MIG-19 and MIG-21 fighters, is not able to withstand the American decked-off phantom and attack aircraft "Intruderam." The weather did not allow them to use. After this next spit in our direction, the carrier connection (Enterprise, Midway) through the Sangar Strait entered the Sea of ​​Japan.
          http://www.38brrzk.ru/public/russia-parl-harbor/
          Mercedes vs tractor. Assessment of real opportunities. drinks
          1. +1
            4 June 2016 10: 45
            I’m now worried about the saturation of the satellite constellation with Arkon-2M radar, since in fact they remove a bunch of problems with detection and such kind of punctures.

            Quote: Serg65
            The weather did not allow them to be used.

            They would still be holding the MiG-15, now, thank God, planes of a different kind and I don’t understand why the Su-15 or MiG-25 were not involved, at least pure interceptors for such purposes.
            Quote: Serg65
            Only a day later, on Tuesday, 14 of September, we learn from the data of the air defense posts in the Kuril Islands that the carrier-based strike force is maneuvering east of the island of Paramushir (the Kuril Islands), conducting flights of carrier-based aircraft.

            What did they SLEEP the stole? !!! Slop !!! am
            Quote: Serg65
            Multipurpose submarines sent to track the American AUS did not quite do their job, since this is a difficult task for the submarine commander. It is necessary to try to be undetected in the composition of the connection order.

            We must try, and not rely on the sonar range, such an opinion is formed that they sent the most worthless specialists to the Pacific Fleet! wassat
            Quote: Serg65
            Mercedes vs tractor. Assessment of real opportunities.

            Rather, criminal negligence and no interaction with other military branches.
            1. +2
              4 June 2016 18: 51
              Quote: kugelblitz
              Rather, criminal negligence and no interaction with other military branches.

              Have you ever heard of Murphy's Law? If translated into Russian, it says that circumstances are sometimes stronger than logic!
            2. +1
              5 June 2016 00: 16
              Quote: kugelblitz
              I’m now worried about the saturation of the satellite constellation with Arkon-2M radar, since in fact they remove a bunch of problems with detection and such kind of punctures.


              In vain. Arcon-2M does not work in real time ...
          2. +2
            4 June 2016 12: 29
            That case when the comment is much more informative than the article. Many thanks. It is very interesting and, combining with the history of other recent wars, it shows the complexity of the factors of the lack of ability of the army and navy in a modern war that go far beyond the scope of generally available technical parameters.
          3. +6
            4 June 2016 15: 02
            Thank you!
            On the topic - the Northern Fleet, early June 85 or 86 (I don’t remember exactly, the BP training ground, our IPC in supporting the submarines (task L-2, L-3), the weather is rubbish (fog, snow charges, the sea 3-4 points , roll forward), the report of the metrist BIP-target of 55 kbt goes to the training ground, is silent on channel 16, went to intercept - and then the appearance of "Christ to the people" - the US Navy cruiser "Mississippi" in person 150 kbt. from our territories .water!
            And in the morning intelligence report about him not a word!
            Reported to the KPFL CP, they do not believe there, they demand to reclassify the contact, in short everything about ... ate!
            What then began, even now I do not want to remember.
            But here, on the forum, a whole battle of Jutland was arranged - for you from the satellites, the duel between the submarines, and much more, which sometimes causes bewilderment.
            In reality, everything turns out to be much more prosaic - it's still life.
            Well, oh well, excusable ... not all the naval services drank.
            As they say, who served in the Navy, he does not laugh at the circus!
          4. +1
            7 June 2016 11: 23
            Yes, how many times have we surfaced near an almost statue of liberty and not one boat but a division, two admirals with stars go for it, and I know about 10 such cases that I’m sorry that they aren’t in the press except for a couple. So that’s all, and annoying coincidences too
          5. 0
            7 June 2016 11: 23
            Yes, how many times have we surfaced near an almost statue of liberty and not one boat but a division, two admirals with stars go for it, and I know about 10 such cases that I’m sorry that they aren’t in the press except for a couple. So that’s all, and annoying coincidences too
  12. +4
    4 June 2016 08: 42
    In general, the impression of the article is positive.
    The topic of over-the-horizon detection, tracking and target designation is poorly covered. The AUG has AWACS aircraft, the "Moscow" only has a turntable with equipment for AWACS. This is if there is no satellite guidance.
    Also, the topic of ammunition capacity was not disclosed. There is no doubt that the side that has saved more missiles and shells for its own air defense / missile defense than the nasty means of attack will ultimately be the winner. Here the gain (by means of attack) is unambiguously for the AUG, corny, more ammunition cellar. request
    On the issue of escorting ship groupings by submarines. AUG accompanies two attack nuclear submarines and 1-2 "hunters". Which can also carry anti-ship missiles. The range of our submarine detection equipment is inferior to mattress ones. There is nothing to be done, our nuclear submarines are still noisier than the US ones. Again, the score is not in our favor. BUT! Here a lot, a lot depends on the skill and experience of both the crew and the commander of the submarines. And again the issue will be resolved in the direction of balance and the amount of PLO ammunition.
    Recently, the author Pletnev Alexander Vladimirovich released the book "Raider" about the confrontation of our "Peter the Great" with the US Navy, after he fell through in the early 80s. Interesting enough. IMHO.
    hi
    1. 0
      4 June 2016 10: 12
      Moscow has good chances of confronting Nimitz in only one case: the presence of anti-ship missiles with strong electronic warfare. Otherwise, with the help of the Hokai long-range watch, all of the anti-ship missiles can be guided by Nimitz air defense aircraft in the far zone. We can assume that Su-35 will be allocated to escort the Vulkans, which will provide cover for the anti-ship missiles of its electronic warfare, but then the Su-35 will most likely not return, although it will complete the task. I don’t want to look at the cynic, but the cost of the Su-35 does not compare with the cost of the AUG.
  13. +1
    4 June 2016 08: 53
    The AUG constantly provides control from the air to a depth of 800 km, with the help of AWACS aircraft, there are also EW aircraft and fighter jets, approximately 60-70, and up to 80 aircraft can be used, but the Russian strike group does not have this. Rocket Vulkan and Granit superior to the US, but they still need to have time to shoot and hit, while the EW aircraft will interfere, and the American air defense ships are also not made with a finger.
    1. +1
      4 June 2016 09: 24
      Quote: Yak28
      AUG constantly provides control from the air to a depth of 800 km using AWACS

      /// this is when the visibility is "million in a million", but how in bad weather conditions? laughing
      1. 0
        4 June 2016 09: 35
        In all weather conditions, dozens of aircraft give a serious advantage. Do the AWACS planes in fog or God forbid do not see the rain? wink Of course, the weather can be different and if our sailors use underwater nuclear explosions to launch a 50-meter tsunami on an aircraft carrier, this may interfere with the take-off of carrier-based aircraft
        1. -4
          4 June 2016 10: 34
          As a rule, 2 Hokai maneuver to the right and to the left along the course of the aircraft carrier at a distance of up to 100 km from it and from a neighbor: an isosceles triangle. They are able to look another 250-300 km - this is reality. In front of the Hokai, around which there are 1-2 cover fighters, growlers - electronic warfare planes go up to 100 km, and only in front of them are the Super Hornets with their weapons. Question: what then covers the "back" of the AUG order ??? Nothing ... But then, knowing the approximate direction of movement of the AUG order, which should go heading against the wind, you can succeed even with the most ancient anti-ship missiles when approaching from behind ...
  14. +3
    4 June 2016 09: 11
    F / A-18 Hornet (or F / A-18E / F Super Hornet) fighters with a combat radius of 726 km are used as part of the aircraft carrier’s wing.
    .........................................................
    So what scared the aircraft carrier? And the fact that the cruiser missiles have a range of up to 700 km (officially) and this practically coincides with the combat radius of the Hornet!

    These range figures given in reference books are very sly! In the same Wikipedia, from which this number is apparently taken, the ferry range of F / A-18E / F with three PTABs is also indicated: 2850 km, which gives a radius of more than 1400 km. Of course, with a combat load, this number will be less, but "Moscow" will definitely be enough. + add the ability to refuel in the air, + the range of anti-ship missiles that the aircraft is carrying ...

    And since the P-1000 Vulcan rocket is an upgrade of the P-700 Granit rocket ...

    Volcano is a modernization of Basalt.

    P-500 "Basalt"



    P-1000 "Volcano"



    P-700 "Granite"

  15. -3
    4 June 2016 09: 23
    Quote: armored optimist
    Aircraft carrier - a powder keg. 500kg of explosives, plus rocket speed, plus supplies of BP and jet fuel will turn all its insides into minced meat. So drown. It may not immediately, but it will burn, explode and drown.

    On the contrary, the mass of the compartments of the aircraft carrier is hermetically sealed, it is extremely difficult to drown or detonate. If only to carry out an underwater atomic explosion, then there is a possibility that the aircraft carrier itself and other ships of the group will simply roll over wink
    1. +4
      4 June 2016 10: 21
      Quote: Yak28
      On the contrary, the mass of the compartments of the aircraft carrier is hermetically sealed, it is extremely difficult to drown or detonate.

      Only "Vulcan" does not know about it crying
    2. +2
      6 June 2016 04: 42
      Quote: Yak28
      On the contrary, the mass of the compartments of the aircraft carrier is hermetically sealed, it is extremely difficult to drown or detonate. If only to carry out an underwater atomic explosion, then there is a possibility that the aircraft carrier itself and other ships of the group will simply roll over

      For some reason, for the sake of interest, I counted how much TNT was needed to be guaranteed to drown and guaranteed to disable an aircraft carrier of the "Nimitz" type. The resulting figures were 6 tons for sinking and 2,5 tons for incapacitation. This is provided that the anti-ship missiles have completely run out of fuel. If the fuel is not completely depleted, then this amount can be safely divided by two.
      Naturally, the calculated figures are average. If the aircraft carrier is not lucky and the anti-ship missile system will operate on the hangar deck at the moment of refueling the aircraft and suspension of missiles, then even 100 kg of TNT can have sad consequences for the aircraft carrier.
      So, with an underwater nuclear explosion, you can wait. smile
  16. +13
    4 June 2016 09: 30
    As a person who has been involved in the fleet for more than 20 years, I’ll say frankly that the article is not correct. Comparison of ships of completely different classes, different tactics of use, and different purposes is somewhat inappropriate. The author takes all the performance characteristics of firing stations from open sources without taking into account the actual experience of combat use, which is absolutely wrong, even I would say - an incomprehensible comparison. The author should clearly understand, in modern conditions, the main advantage is the primary detection of the enemy. Those who first discovered have a serious advantage, and with a probability of 70 to 90 percent will win the fight. (With more or less equal opponents) Accordingly, the aircraft carrier with its AWACS aircraft, the possibility of over-the-horizon detection is much higher. On this site, in general, many authors raising the sea theme think of naval battle at the Tsushima level, in the best case of Midway, alas, times have changed a lot, as have the means of detection and delivery. And believe me, dear author, I would not want to be on the ship that is trying to AK-630 or GOLKIPERA to bring down the cruise missile going at him. The military men will understand me.
    1. +1
      4 June 2016 11: 08
      Quote: Dimon19661
      As a person who has been involved in the fleet for more than 20 years, I’ll say frankly, the article is not correct. Comparing ships of completely different classes, different application tactics, and different purposes is somewhat inappropriate.

      Uv.kollega, with respect I treat people who have given their cause for many years.

      At the same time, the question arises, as a specialist: what do you think, in the current situation, would it also be unjustified to nominate RK "Moscow" as partners to Syria and block this country from the US AUG? After all, ships of different classes and purposes will instantly drown, no? I remember a year or a year and a half ago, our fleet in the Mediterranean, not inacche as "rusty / pre-like" - many who called it.

      Nevertheless, the country was defended from the occupation, AUG - fled. Just a second, having received guarantees from the Russian Federation, the United States moved to apply AUG in Syria ...

      I suppose that the General Staff and the Russian Navy did not plan and do not think to send a "Moscow" type missile to the Atlantic to try to block the delivery of l / s and equipment of the US occupation forces to the pre-Baldon. - there are other possibilities for this. And the situation is not so threatening ...
      Therefore, as they say "dear to Christ's day" ... or "what we have, we use it!"

      And the article, I think, was written by the author just in relation to the situation with Syria and Middle-earth ... and no more.
      1. +5
        4 June 2016 11: 19
        And remind me - in what way MOSCOW blocked the USA AUG. The cruiser MOSCOW actually was there, so to speak, with a slightly different combat task — no need to put flies and cutlets in one plate. Moreover, in conditions of large-scale military operations, our cruiser for such tasks would not be involved. You first try the military, why are they there, well, and then draw conclusions.
        1. -1
          4 June 2016 11: 36
          Quote: Dimon19661
          blocked AUG USA. Cruiser MOSCOW actually was there so to speak with a slightly different combat mission

          ... we know how to read: by syllables - "and blok-ditch of this country from AUG USA"

          1. +5
            4 June 2016 11: 45
            I can read that, but I still know the tasks that the cruiser performed. And you learn to be polite with your opponent — when the lack of knowledge is compensated by rudeness — this is not very good.
            1. 0
              4 June 2016 12: 01
              Quote: Dimon19661
              lack of knowledge is compensated by rudeness is not very good.

              First, in what place did you see rudeness? If you still thought - I apologize.

              Second, you didn’t answer the question: was it worth it or was it not worth it to bring the RK Moskva with a squadron to the shores of Syria, with the overwhelming advantage of NATO fleets?
              1. +4
                4 June 2016 12: 04
                Of course it was worth, a demonstration of the flag, intentions, the creation of an air defense zone.
                1. +1
                  4 June 2016 15: 01
                  Quote: Dimon19661
                  Of course it was worth, a demonstration of the flag, intentions, the creation of an air defense zone.

                  ...again
                  The article only in a first approximation gives an assessment of all that was available in relation to Syria at the time of the summer-autumn of the 2013 year.
                  The United States with satellites intended to invade Syria under the pretext of chemical weapons.
                  For what - this is another question. And chemical weapons - was also just an excuse.

                  The Mediterranean squadron intervened. If it weren’t for him, even if Assad simply agreed to hand over the chemical weapons at that moment, they would ignore this matter and everything went as planned.

                  Now about "intentions"
                  What do you think, a Russian squadron would have entered if the AUG began to shoot the Kyrgyz infrastructure of Syria, and then they went to bomb the decks?
                  Silently swallowed, as in Yugoslavia?

                  I think not ... For that they stood there.
                  Because, after Syria, Russia will not have a "place in the Sun" ...
                  That was the limit until the next step ...
          2. +3
            4 June 2016 13: 15
            Judging by the picture, the NATO naval group, plus the nearby US Air Force base Incirlik, a little further away, the NATO Air Force base could leave a wet spot from our group. It’s just the presence of nuclear weapons, while keeping the United States from rash actions. Remember when the Russian paratroopers entered Kosovo, and then the NATO grouping. The battle of the clash did not happen there, not because the NATO members were afraid of the BTR80 machine gun, but because Russia had nuclear weapons
            1. +2
              4 June 2016 13: 19
              And what did NATO, led by the United States, declare war on us ???
              1. 0
                4 June 2016 13: 43
                Quote: Dimon19661
                And what did NATO, led by the United States, declare war on us

                ... the cold version of 2.0 - yes!
                Plus to everything - "flexible", such as creeping, through 5-6 columns ...

                We’ll see in three years what it will result in ...
                1. 0
                  4 June 2016 14: 03
                  Something I do not remember the moment of delivery of the note on declaring war in our Foreign Ministry.
                  1. 0
                    4 June 2016 14: 37
                    Quote: Dimon19661
                    Something I do not remember the moment of delivery of the note on declaring war in our Foreign Ministry.

                    ... The Union collapsed - the same on notes through the Foreign Ministry?
                    Yugoslavia - also did not have notes ... like everywhere else in other places ....
                    1. 0
                      4 June 2016 14: 40
                      At the moment, the Russian Federation is not at war with more than one country. You follow the facts, not the emotions.
                      1. +1
                        4 June 2016 15: 09
                        Quote: Dimon19661
                        not at war

                        ... you wanted to write "hot war", didn't you?
                        But in fact all the signs of the Cold War with the USSR.
                      2. 0
                        4 June 2016 15: 32
                        War - a conflict between political entities - states, tribes, political groups and so on - that takes place in the form of armed confrontation, military (combat) actions between their armed forces. One of the goals of the war is the survival or destruction of the enemy.

                        As a rule, war has the means of imposing one’s will on an opponent. One subject of politics is trying by force to change the behavior of another, to force him to give up his freedom, ideology, property rights, give resources: territory, water area and more.

                        As Clausewitz put it, "war is the continuation of politics by other, violent means." The main means of achieving the goals of the war is organized armed struggle as the main and decisive means, as well as economic, diplomatic, ideological, information and other means of struggle. In this sense, war is an organized armed violence whose purpose is to achieve political goals. Total war is armed violence brought to extremes. The main means in the war are the armed forces (army, aviation and navy).
                        The Cold War is the definition of politicians and is not actual war.
                      3. +1
                        4 June 2016 21: 04
                        Has a peace treaty been signed with Japan?
                      4. +2
                        5 June 2016 02: 31
                        The joint declaration of the USSR and Japan of October 19, 1956, in the first article of which is declared: "The state of war between the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and Japan ceases from the date of entry into force of this Declaration, and peace and good neighborly relations are restored between them."

                        Does this not tell you anything?
                      5. 0
                        5 June 2016 09: 06
                        The declaration of intent is like ... The Budapest memorandum, and the price is similar to it.
              2. 0
                6 June 2016 05: 29
                Quote: Dimon19661
                And what did NATO, led by the United States, declare war on us ???

                - there was, I remember, the phrase of our leadership that any shot in the direction of our squadron (read - in the direction of Syria) will be considered as a declaration of war of the Russian Federation ..
                - or something like that, but, EMNIP, it was the same.
            2. 0
              6 June 2016 04: 50
              Quote: Yak28
              Judging by the picture, the NATO naval group, plus the nearby US Air Force base Incirlik, a little further away, the NATO air base could leave a wet spot from our group.

              There, seemingly, some other Chinese ships were ... But I will not argue. The question is not studied in detail.
    2. 0
      4 June 2016 18: 05
      Quote: Dimon19661
      .Sailors will understand me.

      Explained clearly, so it’s understandable and not military. hi
    3. 0
      7 June 2016 11: 30
      And I, as a naval officer, do not care what ship to be on when an anti-ship missile (RCC) comes at it, and 630s are still a weapon, and so let's say "SOFT") is already outdated (YOU WILL UNDERSTAND), that's not the point. And in secret data, without knowing them, this is an opus and not an article
    4. 0
      7 June 2016 11: 30
      And I, as a naval officer, do not care what ship to be on when an anti-ship missile (RCC) comes at it, and 630s are still a weapon, and so let's say "SOFT") is already outdated (YOU WILL UNDERSTAND), that's not the point. And in secret data, without knowing them, this is an opus and not an article
  17. +1
    4 June 2016 10: 07
    Always like articles about measuring peeps :). Interesting to read. Thanks to the author. PS. But I do not believe that 500 kg of explosives will sink an aircraft carrier. About nuclear weapons capable of destroying the entire group .... well, except that the Tsar bomb2.
    1. +6
      4 June 2016 10: 32
      Quote: Ecilop
      But I do not believe that 500 kg of explosives will sink an aircraft carrier

      This is what the Zuni unguided tactical missile with a warhead mass of 21 kilos has done to the Enterprise! bully
  18. +7
    4 June 2016 11: 00
    Cheered up this
    that is, not 48, but only 20 cars. But even these 20 cars, the aircraft carrier will launch at least 45 minutes.

    In fact, raising a 35-plane air group takes half an hour on the strength. http://topwar.ru/31458-nekotorye-osobennosti-ispolzovaniya-palubnoy-aviacii-supe

    ravianoscev-tipa-nimitz-ch1.html
    Error Cabernik V.V. lies in the fact that he incorrectly interprets the term “readiness for departure”. If 12 machines have an 45 minute readiness for departure, this means that in a dozen minutes 45 will be ready for departure. If the remaining 8 machines have an hour and a half readiness - these 8 machines (plus 12 machines with 45-minute readiness) will be ready for departure one and a half hours after the start of the pre-flight preparation. Thus, it is NOT necessary to lift 12 machines into the air and wait for the remaining 8 to undergo pre-flight preparation and take off in an hour and a half - IT IS NECESSARY TO WAIT THE HOUR HALF AND COMPLETE THE PLAIN PREPARATION ON ALL 20 MACHINES then all the 20 machines will be installed. the air group in the air in 15 minutes.
    By the way, V.V. Cabernet did not object to this - and he read the article and left a comment :)
    Therefore, the aircraft carrier can really strike at the "Moscow" with 35-40 aircraft operating at the maximum radius
    An anti-ship missile with a range of 1000 km is fine, the author only forgot to indicate that the radius of a missile reaches a flight at an altitude of about 10 km, where it is visible to EVERYTHING and can be destroyed by everything, from an air patrol fighter to, of course, air defense missile systems. And, of course, the author didn’t tell what kind of tool will allow detecting and issuing central control from a distance of 1000 km from the AUG
    It is completely incomprehensible how the speed of Harpoon fell from 0,85 to 0,6 M. What kind of witchcraft?
    Air defense - this part of the article can be immediately scrapped. air defense systems DO NOT HAVE the effectiveness that the author attributes to them. In addition, the destruction of the Moskva-class cruiser will be different. First, the demonstration group will call fire on itself, then the electronic warfare group will turn on the "jammers" of the cruiser's OMS radar station and hammer on them with PRR, and only then will the "Harpoons" go.
    In general, a big plus for trying to figure it out and a big minus for the analysis results :)))
    Z.Y. - about nuclear weapons, which 1 warhead tears the whole AUG - tore into pieces :))) Author! Read about the X-22PSI
    1. +3
      4 June 2016 11: 21
      The problem is that the author takes data from weapons systems from different sources, and presents them as he is comfortable at the moment.
    2. 0
      7 June 2016 14: 24
      About the radius of the aircraft. TAs also indicate the radius of the flight not off the ground. So if Moscow discovers a group of planes marching on it, it will fire a volley at AUG BEFORE launching missiles at it itself. Even if after start-up, then because flight time of the Kyrgyz Republic is about 15 minutes. Moscow will be able to shoot, but to survive is a question.
  19. +8
    4 June 2016 11: 14
    My research adviser called such articles about scientific delirium. Let's build another five cruisers like Moscow and conquer the world. In principle, the author revolves around the characteristics of some of our missiles and dances from them, mentioning only adversary in the enemy. And by the way, the range of their armament must be added to the new aircraft radar.
    1. 0
      4 June 2016 21: 13
      Initially, ten Atlantes and five Eagles were planned, and this would be more powerful than the entire American fleet combined and cheaper than ten aircraft carriers.
  20. +1
    4 June 2016 11: 24
    Sivkov is magnificently seasoned with ranks and everyone should heed to his authority.


    Who are the judges? - For the antiquity of the years
    To a free life their enmity is irreconcilable,
    Judges draw from forgotten newspapers
    Ochakovsky and the conquest of the Crimea;
  21. +1
    4 June 2016 11: 34
    Why sink an aircraft carrier at all? It is enough to deprive him of the ability to produce aircraft. Disabling catapults, damage to the runway - and the aircraft carrier "slowly and sadly" is sent to the dock.
  22. +1
    4 June 2016 12: 07
    It is not for nothing that military satellites are launched from Plyasetsk one after another. They are increasing the intelligence component of our VKS. AUG is dangerous precisely with its AWACS aircraft, which our cruisers do not have. And what about our RCC - so striped-eared ones recognize their danger, but they cannot do anything with them. The concept, under which the USSR died and there is nothing to be afraid of, has already disarmed their fleet in the sense of opposing another fleet, and this cannot be quickly fixed.
  23. 0
    4 June 2016 12: 08
    Liberators are paid for such articles and they even sprinkle outright nonsense. probably because of their "unconditional superiority" where our cruisers appear, augi shy away like mice from the noise. in general world champions in side jumping.

    Z. Lavrov was right.
  24. -1
    4 June 2016 12: 17
    Why theoretical comparisons? There was already a race in the Indian Ocean when the Soviet missile
    the cruiser spent a week trying to get close to one of the American AUGs at a distance of a missile salvo.
    And I couldn’t. AUG moved faster. And her planes constantly circled in greeting over the cruiser.
    1. +1
      4 June 2016 12: 39
      30 knots Nimitz, 32 knots for 1144, 1164 and even 949. Which cruiser is it? Maybe he generally monitored the actions of the order, and his behavior was misunderstood?
      1. 0
        4 June 2016 21: 28
        Nominally, the performance characteristics of Soviet ships are high, they really went and go much
        slower. Since their boilers from full load quickly fall apart.

        Nimits with a group give their 30 knots stably for hundreds of kilometers and easily
        get away from the chase.
        1. +1
          4 June 2016 22: 05
          Nimits with a group give their 30 knots stably for hundreds of kilometers and easily
          go away from the chase-From whom from the rocket well this is a fantasy 1000 km missile range
          Nominally, the performance characteristics of Soviet ships are high, they really went and go much
          slower. Since their boilers from full load quickly fall apart, you yourself guessed or who prompted
          1. -1
            6 June 2016 00: 08
            "x boilers from full load quickly fall apart - you guessed it yourself or who jumped" ////

            They suggested, of course, on the same VO site. They told in detail how they went
            repairs of broken pipelines, leaking boilers and steam exchangers of cruisers after trips, when they hardly reached Severomorsk on their own.
        2. 0
          4 June 2016 22: 14
          Quote: voyaka uh
          Nominally, the performance characteristics of Soviet ships are high, they really went and go much
          slower. Since their boilers from full load quickly fall apart.

          What are the boilers in the Atlanteans ?! wassat I always thought that there are gas turbines there !! At nuclear boilers, kakbe are reactors, but oh well, we will consider the heat exchanger of the first and second circuit as a weak point, much less steam is formed there!
          Quote: voyaka uh
          Nimits with a group give their 30 knots stably for hundreds of kilometers and easily
          get away from the chase.

          As I recall, the group went as part of a retinue of escort ships, usually one aircraft carrier and other destroyers with other trifles. Oh well, let’s let the group go in full steam! Only logs thicker in the furnace Nigro let him fill up!

          Monsieur! Hutspoi smacks of, adnaka! lol
          1. +2
            6 June 2016 00: 16
            Soviet squadrons successfully grazed the AUG in the Mediterranean Sea, in other seas off the coast,
            but in the open ocean lagged. But the Soviet and Russian submarines creeped repeatedly
            to the AUG on a torpedo salvo.
          2. 0
            7 June 2016 11: 56
            Correctly, the gas turbine engine is standing and not boilers, maybe he is about the Kuzyu that he really is the same walker on the seas
          3. 0
            7 June 2016 11: 56
            Correctly, the gas turbine engine is standing and not boilers, maybe he is about the Kuzyu that he really is the same walker on the seas
  25. +2
    4 June 2016 13: 32
    the radius of the affected area for an aircraft carrier is the sum of the combat radius of the aircraft + missile range, 729 + ??? = total how much? and the Yankees satellite tracking system speaks better than ours, so think who is stronger than a karate or a boxer .....
    if they do not attack us, then we are not weaker, and thank God that there is no war!
  26. +1
    4 June 2016 13: 42
    and again the comparisons are strange
  27. 0
    4 June 2016 13: 50
    And who will win, an elephant or a whale? Super heavyweight champion is a boxer or karate player .... a sambo wrestler or a judoka ??? and what happened before, a chicken or an egg? You can give as many examples as possible of the technical characteristics of weapons systems, the speed of ships, aircraft, range, and so on, adjust the task to the answer and vice versa in the right place ... but in the end, in my opinion, it is solved individually in each case and the human factor cannot be reset from the accounts .... and it seems to me incorrect to compare the incomparable ... maybe you can somehow compare Kuznetsova and Nimitz, and then not really .. and the cruiser and the AUG ... and as for the example given about the actions of two AUG off the coast Kamchatka ... God forbid, now at least half overcame the sloppiness that existed then ... the article is, as it were, say three, discussion, 4 .... if there were no marginal comments, then 5 .. thank you all
  28. +3
    4 June 2016 14: 13
    I 100% agree with the comments of GSH-18. It is foolish to snatch individual combat units from the whole variety of means of warfare at sea and compare them with each other. Moreover, our fleet never planned a single combat of individual, even the most heavily armed with strike weapons, ships and submarines with NATO aircraft carriers in the first operations of the fleet. But only a shock group, the so-called. OS RUS as part of shock NKNK, PLPL and MRA in providing other forces and means of the fleet. We listened to a journalistic term like "killer of aircraft carriers" and away we go ... Therefore, once again, warm is compared with soft or, if you like, cold with hard. The informational content of the article is a plus, and the very statement of the question is a bold minus.
  29. +5
    4 June 2016 14: 25
    The author, in a fit of ̶s̶t̶r̶a̶s̶t̶i̶ of righteous anger, wrote an article as ridiculous as the one he was trying to refute. Some speculation and a bunch of numbers taken from nowhere and how to interpret them together. For example, explain to me where did you get the 1000 km range from the P-1000? When official sources give 550-750 depending on the flight profile. Where did the missile, which is a modification of the P-500 with a range of 500 km and made in the same dimensions for the same launchers, have a range 2 times higher?
    You start from the situation when our ship group is on full alert and knows the coordinates of the AUG (probably the seagulls were whispering), but at the AUG they are sunbathing and drinking cocktails? Further, you quoted a bunch of quotes from an article about the aircraft carrier’s cycle there, but you still didn’t understand the main thing, I read this article and understood from it that if an airstrike is being prepared, there will be a bunch of prepared aircraft on the deck as in places designated for preparation for departure and in other parts of the deck (ammunition will only have to be pulled farther from the elevators), after which they simply take turns feeding the catapult. In the same article, the minimum safe launch interval is 30 seconds. At the Nimitz class - 2 starts of 2 catapults each - do you count the launch speed yourself? And where is there a maximum of 20 cars per hour? It is not necessary to consider Americans stupid in questions of use of naval aviation. He and WWII managed to take hundreds of aircraft from several aircraft carriers into the air and cooperate, and I don’t think that they have forgotten how to do this now. Yes, no one canceled slovenliness, our planes flew right above the decks, but this is in peacetime when everyone is relaxed, and what will happen if there is a threat of conflict is a completely different picture. We wrote above that we could not find as many as 2 AUGs near their shores, when the USSR was at its peak, what to speak of the present time. So do not throw caps, so as not to catch a brick.
  30. -2
    4 June 2016 17: 19
    Very interesting article. There are few obvious mistakes. Well flatters liberal critics.
    1. +1
      5 June 2016 00: 27
      Quote: Paul Zewike
      Very interesting article. There are few obvious mistakes. Well flatters liberal critics.


      It does not flatter liberals, but drives into the wilderness those who at least understand something in aircraft carriers, ships, anti-ship missiles and the principles of naval air defense.
      For the author is a complete fool. nothing, I repeat. understanding nothing, fantasizing, inventing - in general, a complete "militant atheist".
      dumb like a cork. but wrote a balm article. for those like himself.
      You are being deceived - and you are happy ...

      That's it.
  31. +5
    4 June 2016 17: 30
    Again "a spherical horse in a vacuum":
    Unconfirmed statements about the AK-630 “highest accuracy”, “highest efficiency”, “most likely higher than that of the“ Goalkeeper ”,“ firing range of 4 km. ”If you shoot into the white light like a pretty penny, then the projectile will fly away by 4 km. here is the effective range of 800-900 meters. At a speed of 300 m / s - 3 seconds of flight. 6 AK-630 installations are 3 batteries, 2 installations and one control module, i.e. 3 target channels OSA-M efficiency is just a song - rate of fire 2 shots per minute.

    Yes, there are no Tomkats with Phoenixes, but:
    F / A-18E / F Super Hornet weapons Air-to-air missiles: 4 × AIM-9 Sidewinder or 4 × AIM-120 AMRAAM, and
    2 × AIM-7 Sparrow or 2 × AIM-120 AMRAAM.
    AIM-120C-7 launch range 120 km.
    AIM-120D launch range 180 km.
    On 2 on-duty fighter aircraft in the air, 12 pieces AIM-120-C7.
    At the link from 4's fighters in 5 minute readiness 24 pieces AIM-120-C7.
    Total 36 pieces in 5 minute readiness.
    Flight time 16 "Volcanoes" at a distance of 700 at a speed of 2,5M = 14 minutes.

    ATTENTION RIDDLE! HOW MANY "VOLCANOES" WILL GET TO AUG?

    Ammunition S-300F is equal to 64 missiles in order to deplete it even with the probability of defeat 0,9
    you need 57 rockets ANY supersonic, subsonic, no matter what!
    Oh yes! I completely forgot! Nimitz still has EW aircraft, and what is the effectiveness of air defense when involving two or three of them at the same time during the Moscow attack is a big question.
    Well, after the S-300F ammunition is used up, Moscow remains "FLY LIKE A BUTTERFLY, STIMM LIKE A WASP-M". Is there enough ammunition on Nimitz to completely exhaust Moscow’s air defense - the only question is how many times in a row he can do it. And then at least throw air bombs

    This is the math and "assessment of real possibilities", no matter how you meditate, and how much grass you smoke 2 + 2 is still 4.
    1. 0
      4 June 2016 20: 42
      In any case, this confrontation would have happened off our coast, where coastal air defense would help Moscow, full-fighter fighters and not F-18 fires
      1. 0
        4 June 2016 20: 53
        Quote: Skubudu
        In any case, this confrontation would have happened near our coasts, where Moscow has air defense, full fighters to help

        /// plus missile-carrying anti-ship Tu-22М and Su-24 with Su-34, and along with coastal defense missiles. And what they have in the muddlers (maybe the experimental Topol-E with hyperBB homing from Kapyar), hell knows :)))
        1. -2
          5 June 2016 09: 13
          Quote: Rus2012
          Quote: Skubudu
          In any case, this confrontation would have happened off our coast, where coastal air defense would help Moscow, full-fighter fighters and not F-18 fires

          /// plus missile-carrying anti-ship Tu-22М and Su-24 with Su-34, and along with coastal defense missiles. And what they have in the muddlers (maybe the experimental Topol-E with hyperBB homing from Kapyar), hell knows :)))

          Why then "Moscow"? "Ax soup!"
      2. 0
        5 June 2016 00: 32
        Quote: Skubudu
        In any case, this confrontation would have happened off our coast, where coastal air defense would help Moscow, full-fighter fighters and not F-18 fires


        Tell yourselves (well, at the same time) the basing points for coastal anti-ship aviation and the number of aircraft in service ...
        For the AUG air defense system will come to help the adversary’s planes, but what will come to the aid of our fighters?
        After all, the danger from the aircraft carrier and its AUG. and it must be removed. and not air defense fighters to lift into the air ...
    2. 0
      4 June 2016 23: 23
      I agree that it is really difficult for Moscow to compete with the AUG with a total displacement of 10 times more than it.
      But as regards the depletion of ammunition of large missiles, it is said that the main work on anti-ship missiles lies with neighboring air defense systems and automatic weapons.
      1. +3
        5 June 2016 02: 44
        Dear, the ammunition of one AK-630 tape is 2000 rounds, and with a probability of up to 90% it will be shot at the first target, the reserve tape is -1000 rounds, the remaining 8000 are in zinc in the barbet. Recharging the tape is a long process — what is the main job? SUO pennant (AK-630) is your last chance, and the probability of hitting a target is far from 100%. The article was written by a complete amateur who had never even seen HOW weapons are used on a modern ship.
        1. 0
          21 June 2016 00: 03
          Yes, yes, I remember at the academy even whole problems were solved on a similar topic ... very interesting conclusions are obtained when you use simple tricks of arithmetic
        2. 0
          24 June 2016 02: 36
          Quote: Dimon19661
          the ammunition of one AK-630 tape is 2000 rounds, and with a probability of up to 90%, it will be shot at the first target

          This is if they manage to use up all 2000 shots. On the "Harpoon" it makes sense to open fire somewhere from 3 km. The rocket will cover this distance in about 10 seconds. During this time, at a rate of fire of 5000 rds / min. the complex will produce a maximum of 800 - 850 shots ... Shoot down one "Harpoon", most likely, it will work. But the second time is not enough.
  32. +1
    4 June 2016 18: 12
    An ungrateful article from the category "who is stronger than an elephant or a whale"? Moreover, the author somehow unobtrusively looks for the weakest data from the foe, and the maximum possible (or maybe more) from the native ship. To consider and plan such options is very vague in my opinion. It is simply not realistic to create identical collision conditions. I wonder how the author would have predicted the chess games? Initially, the board has the same number of pieces on both sides - does it mean a draw? And if a variant of a chess problem where one player has more bishop and pawn, then he won?
  33. +1
    4 June 2016 18: 15
    The conclusion is: Tipo get hurt that 1 good cruiser + a couple of EMs in addition, a warrior in the field.
    1 for a warship + 10 "unique" boats per year and will continue to be handed over to all fleets as you wish - straight walking rare, unique trophies.
    In the USA, the typical lkhs of the series are sculpted: 22 cruisers and 52 destroyers - until parity of 1 to 4 is no reason to speak!
  34. -1
    4 June 2016 18: 39
    I completely agree with the author of the article - I also did not like the article by Sivkov, which he analyzes, I did not like it at all. Although I am far from the military naval theme, I immediately classified that article by Sivkovskaya in the category of "everything was lost" and did not take it seriously. There was a smell from her, some kind of vile, liberal propaganda smell, five-column ... Thanks to the author - he confirmed my imperial guesses with figures - a big plus for him.
    P.S. I believe in our "swarm of hornets". In addition, none of our sworn "partners", as far as I understand, has anything like this in terms of managing the anti-ship missile system and is not expected in the foreseeable future.
  35. -1
    4 June 2016 18: 50
    Although I gave the article a plus for a rather detailed analysis, I would like to note that the idea of ​​attacking the AUG by single ships and aircraft does not stand up to serious criticism. No matter how good a cruiser or submarine is, they will not be able to resist an order conducting a massive search and interception at various frequencies. Even if they are able to come within striking distance, it is possible to guarantee the destruction of an aircraft carrier only by using a nuclear weapon. So, whatever one may say, but we have to agree with "podgornovea" - again a spherical horse in a vacuum.
    1. +2
      4 June 2016 19: 02
      Quote: Verdun
      guaranteed to destroy an aircraft carrier is possible only by using nuclear warheads

      But why destroy it? What do you think, if a couple of missiles of the Granite or Onyx class fall into the take-off deck (namely, the take-off), the aircraft carrier will be able to carry out the task for which it was built?
      Although the comparison in the article is really not correct for many reasons. For example, one of them: the specific composition of neither AUG nor our order is indicated.
      And if such a collision takes place, then there will no longer be the Tomahawks, the Hapunas and the Volcanoes and Granites will speak, but completely different systems and missiles, far from a high-explosive warhead.
      1. 0
        5 June 2016 09: 20
        Quote: NEXUS
        if such a collision takes place, then there will no longer be the Tomahawks, the Hapunas and the Volcanoes and Granites will speak, but completely different systems and missiles, far from a high-explosive warhead.

        So "Volcanoes" with "Granites" are also created only for such conflicts. Hitting terrorists or rodent boats with heavy anti-ship missiles the size of a light fighter is too wasteful. And without them there is something.
  36. -2
    4 June 2016 19: 34
    Undermine the electromagnetic bomb over the AUG, burn out all the electronics and that's it.
  37. +1
    4 June 2016 20: 10
    Comparison of the maximum flight range of the cruiser "Moskva" and F-18 missiles is not entirely correct (in this sofa battle of ships). After all, the F-18 will not bomb, it will use anti-ship missiles. Add the "Harpoon" range and then the picture will be somewhat different.
    RGM-84D (UGM-84D, AGM-84D) is a modification of an extended-range missile, created in 1985. By replacing the JP-6 jet fuel with JP-10 fuel, it was possible to increase the range to 220 km (for the aviation version). The missile also had improved anti-jamming capabilities and two possible attack modes: from diving, and from horizontal flight.
  38. 0
    4 June 2016 20: 18
    The AIM-54A Phoenix missile (which was armed with the F-14) belonged to the air-to-air class and how it could neutralize the cruiser’s activities - I don’t understand! With the suspended AIM-54A Phoenix, the F-14 turned into a regular iron! The main objective of the F-14 was to prevent the Tu-95 from launching.
    1. 0
      5 June 2016 09: 25
      How justified is the comparison of anti-aircraft missiles with anti-ship missiles?

      There are not so many conceptual differences. Anti-aircraft 48Н6Е2 and perspective “Zircon” are guided missiles with all the ensuing consequences.

      Seafarers are well aware of the hidden capabilities of the shipboard SAMs. Half a century ago, during the first firing of anti-aircraft missiles, an obvious discovery was made: at the line of sight, the ZYRs would be the first to go. They have a smaller mass of warheads, but their reaction time is shorter compared to RCC by 5-10 times! This tactic was universally applied in “skirmishes” at sea. The Yankees damaged the “Standard” Iranian frigate (1988). Russian sailors with the help of “Wasps” dealt with Georgian boats.

      The bottom line is that if conventional missiles with a non-contact fuse turned off can be used against ships, then why not create a special tool on its base for hitting surface targets?

      The advantage will be a high speed of flight, at the turn of the hypersound. The main drawback is the high-altitude flight profile, which makes the missile vulnerable when the enemy’s air defenses break through.

      http://topwar.ru/91369-raketa-cirkon-bitva-za-giperzvuk.html
  39. +1
    4 June 2016 20: 47
    And the author forgot to report that all US carrier-based aviation is capable of refueling in the air. (to the question of who first took off, that first also sat down).
    1. +2
      4 June 2016 21: 03
      in order to refuel in a reap, you need to have this refueler in the air, and by the way he says that the Hornets can refuel on the way back, read carefully
  40. +2
    4 June 2016 21: 01
    Yes, there are a lot of all sorts of Chubais falcons and brewers in history and Sivkov in the armed forces, it would be interesting to know how much they bought their dissertations for
  41. +3
    4 June 2016 21: 59
    The same Falanx that could not shoot down a couple of Iraqi "Exocets". It was 40 years ago now the air defense does not need to think to the author that the Americans are fools, and do not think about protecting the ship, and Italy is close and Turkey from the cruiser Moscow, and from there it is already f -15 can take off
  42. +1
    4 June 2016 21: 59
    Dear, to hell to compare a member with a finger? Missile cruisers were designed and built specifically for naval combat, against the AUG in the first place. Carriers have other tasks in the modern world. Their destiny is local wars against a weaker enemy. The same tasks are set for the URA cruisers, and therefore the missiles there are not anti-ship. Simplified, you are arguing now whether a fighter will be able to shoot down a bomber or a bomber will hit a fighter. And maybe the first and second. But the fighter was originally planned in order to shoot down the bombers, so that he has more chances.
    Theoretically, of course, you can lose such a naval battle, but its probability is generally close to zero. In the event of a war between the USA and the Russian Federation, such a battle is unlikely to solve something in the war, but if there is a local conflict in other countries, where on the side of one US state, on the side of another Russia, there will be both Nimitz and Moscow ... Yes, it’s just NO HORSE. For one simple reason: EVERYONE wants to live. And no one is guaranteed to go unpunished in such a battle.
    And so ... purely theoretically argue who is higher on the wall pissing ...
    1. 0
      5 June 2016 09: 36
      Quote: Victor Pavlovich
      Dear, to hell to compare a member with a finger? Missile cruisers were designed and built specifically for naval combat, against the AUG in the first place. Carriers have other tasks in the modern world.

      I agree! Then what is it for ?:

      Quote: Victor Pavlovich
      Theoretically, of course, you can lose such a naval battle, but its probability is generally close to zero. In the event of a war between the USA and the Russian Federation, such a battle is unlikely to solve something in the war, but if there is a local conflict in other countries, where on the side of one US state, on the side of another Russia, there will be both Nimitz and Moscow ...

      Contradict yourself! Cruisers armed with heavy anti-ship missiles were built against the AUG and by no means theoretically. The problem is that their combat potential, as it turns out, is not enough to complete this main task!
  43. +1
    4 June 2016 22: 50
    The author is well done and all that.
    But I foresee serious objections.
    1. The issue of target designation for anti-ship missiles at ranges of 1000 km. What do we have there with satellites?
    2. The missiles of the Standard of the latest generations have an ACTIVE homing head and thus bypass the limit on the number of radars. In other matters, this does not solve the problems with working on low-flying targets.
    3. Yes, it is likely that only a limited number of aircraft can fly to the maximum range (although I doubt that only 6), but they can do the F-18 air defense functions! Meet RCC at a distance of a hundred, two, or third kilometers and hunt them.
    So "the truth is somewhere nearby. More precisely," in the middle. "
  44. 0
    5 June 2016 02: 24
    Quote: Andrey Skokovsky
    Konstantin Sivkov? This citizen for me as a political expert died heroically - forever, like a miner after in October 2015, expertly in a "military doctoral" way, he arranged the entry of troops into Syria.
    Not only as a politician, but also as a military analyst after such "analysis" he is simply nobody and his name is nothing

    +100! I absolutely agree with you!
  45. 0
    5 June 2016 12: 11
    Someone was considering the issue that guidance and target designation of air defense cr. Moscow is built around the radar - 3P41 Volna, which, unlike the Orlan Type, is only one and is located aft. Those. Moscow in fact can only shoot along one side. It seems that is why the two links of the F-18, coming from different sides, it should be guaranteed to sink. Now is not the time of the great USSR when the doctrine for these ships was - One Kirov and a couple of Orlanes to it, now these are fragments of the past scattered across the fleets.
  46. 0
    5 June 2016 12: 36
    Quote: Philip Staros
    Well, strictly speaking, all that Vulcan needs is that he is "told" that the target is "somewhere in - he is there" - so that he can go to the desired REGION and find ships with his "head". Moreover, in the "flock" this will be done by one of the rockets from the ALTITUDE, i.e. at a relatively long distance. In general, + -30 km, for example, the Volcano will be fine.

    And really, is the problem of target designation really stubborn to us? Rapidly deployable single-hop ZGRLS 29B6 "Container" with a detection range of up to 3000 km. I think they are quite capable of giving primary data on the location of the target. And the heavy anti-ship missiles themselves have a rather powerful radar seeker, comparable to the radar of tactical fighters. And if the principle of merging the data received by each RCC into a single network is applied, then the sickly one will turn out to be a wunderwolf. In addition, without relying only on the GOS, after the anti-ship missile system, repeaters can be sent, thus establishing telecontrol, well, or using space communication channels, if the satellite constellation survived at least partially.
    And one more thing, IMHO, supersonic anti-ship missiles, as a class equipped with turbojet engines, have a considerable reserve for increasing range. Why saw all the way to the target in supersonic, spending a huge amount of fuel to overcome the dense near-surface atmosphere? Moreover, this causes a sickly aerodynamic heating, which makes it impossible to use passive methods to reduce visibility, both as a result of infrared radiation and the impossibility of using radar absorbing polymer composites and coatings in the design of the RCC case, only heat-resistant alloys are suitable. Subsonic missile launchers / anti-ship missiles are deprived of all these shortcomings, which, having much smaller dimensions and mass, fly over thousands of kilometers. It would be nice to combine the positive qualities of both of them - the main part of the route should be done at subsonic speed, while entering the immediate air defense zone include the afterburners of the turbojet engine.
    And the last, faced with the threat of defeat from an enemy fighter (hijacking radar) at a distance from the target, abandon the main task and switch to SAM mode. This will significantly increase the chances of the remaining RCC.
  47. 0
    5 June 2016 12: 42
    It’s unlikely that our admirals seriously consider the battle of NK on the side of the battle of Jutland in the Atlantic. And Americans with AUG in Black or the Baltic are unlikely to appear, because from the same Crimea and Kaliningrad drown from land.
    Therefore, the NK of the Russian Navy (including all three KR pr.1164) are more "demonstrators of strength" in the non-military period. bully
  48. -6
    5 June 2016 12: 52
    Lochani from the last century do not fight, but shear suckers. This is a picture
  49. +2
    5 June 2016 18: 32
    BSK is the delirium of the blue mare - this is me about the "expert" Sivkov, but the Author is "not without sin," however, he himself admits it! For self-criticism, a separate respect and +! And as for the real situation of the combat confrontation between our cruisers and the enemy's AUG, one such case took place in reality - in March 1986, off the coast of Libya, 3 AB (1 nuclear, 2 conventional) and 180 NATO pennants against the RK Admiral Drozd pr. 1134 with 8 "basalts" (2 nuclear warheads) and the BOD "Ognevoy" pr.61? This situation (opposition) is described in detail by me in my book "The Sea Laughed", Chapter 7 "A Midsummer Night's Dream" - I can publish it to anyone interested. The tough position of the commander of the Soviet cruiser and the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the USSR A.A. Gromyko then forced the Americans and their allies to stop bombing Gaddafi, and then completely go home, Yankees! Can Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov take the same tough stance in the event of a conflict and not yield to Kerry or another American "not an inch of his native sea - ocean", I'm not sure? They allowed Gaddafi to break, and Hussein, and Milosevic! And with Assad everything is extremely muddy ?!
  50. +1
    5 June 2016 20: 07
    Konstantin Sivkov - Dear person, I "paw" him or he shook me. We are much less armed. Sivkov made it clear. Even to our President! The article is good, with analytics, but for five oceans one "Moscow" is not enough for Kirov, and so on. Small-grained "Harriers", "Penguins" and so on are invaders-bastards. Pentagon-Tansky-NATO-Euro-shaped "bastard" Knows who will break his "siku". There were examples, in Paris, Berlin were ... We swam, we know!
  51. 0
    5 June 2016 20: 33
    Dear KudrevKN, there is so much information (information) about Korean, Ukrainian Boeings, so much information that the “s” were on the Moon, etc.... It’s better to immediately link to the studio, and we will decide... With bow and respect. Thank you for having something to share and not being secretive.
  52. +1
    5 June 2016 22: 42
    "Ticonderoga" in comparison with "Moscow" is just a barge loaded with missiles
    Laughed to tears laughing laughing laughing good
  53. +1
    6 June 2016 08: 18
    How many cruisers "Moskva" do we have? 20-50? The ships accompanying them were crying the same as the submarines. You armchair theorists have not forgotten that the United States also has allies and therefore, to the US ships you can add, for example, the fleet of Britain, France, and so on... Why did you decide to throw hats at the aircraft carrier again??? It’s hard to find adequate analysts during the day.
    1. 0
      12 May 2017 11: 42
      Well, actually, there’s no need to go too far: first you need to remember the doctrine according to which the USSR fleet was built and the tactics of conducting combat operations in our seas; Russia doesn’t have it at all yet - everything is inherited. Based on the doctrine: in general, an attack on any aggressor of the AUG type was planned by the combined forces of the Navy and Air Force - one of the possibilities was an attack on missile boats of Project 1241 or later projects with a salvo of at least 64 cruise missiles, where every second one was equipped with a SBC and with a simultaneous attack by TU22M No. missiles of the X22 type from the air or later modifications, and then there could be a guaranteed success in destroying the AUG. And this is not with hats .. since the AUG has a sufficient number of guided missile frigates that will cover the group from attack like a fan
  54. +1
    6 June 2016 09: 18
    Quote: NEXUS
    Quote: GSH-18
    Dear NEXUS, imagine that you are on the Moskva somewhere in the Pacific Ocean ... Yes, you have missiles with a firing range of 1000 km (P-1000 volcano), but you cannot see beyond the horizon!

    You, dear GS-18, have not taken into account one detail - there are always two or three nuclear submarines in the AUG as well as in the warrant. Why do you think that Moscow cannot receive target designations from its MAPL? At the same time, it seems to me that in such a confrontation of the warrant with AUG, the result will be decided precisely under water in the first place.
    At the same time, it must be remembered that since the time of the union, our carrier, so to speak, has been attached to each aircraft carrier, which tracked all its movements, and therefore, I believe that getting target designations will not be difficult. hi


    We must not assume (theoretically), but know how in practice everything is planned and implemented.
    I didn’t read all the nonsense of the author of the article, but I had to start with geography (BD theater). Whether in the Mediterranean, Black Sea, or the Atlantic, the RKR "Moscow" is not clear what it will do, the main thing is how, in relation to the constantly moving MC aircraft carrier.
    In the threatened period, the RKR will not go further than the Black Sea, in order to obtain the control center it is necessary to overtake the Tu-22M3 (it is not a fact that they will be found even in the Black Sea), and to train YES crews. It is not possible to detect an aircraft carrier in the ocean zone without space reconnaissance equipment.
    The author first needs to start by deciphering the name of the TRSANK manual, then try to claim the text of the owls. secret document, study it, tie it to a US aircraft carrier, and then follow the ears of numerous site specialists in everything.
  55. +1
    6 June 2016 15: 27
    Very interesting review. And the controversy is so well-reasoned.
    But for some reason I remembered our cruiser "Varyag", which in 1904 entered into battle with 12 "pennants" of the Japanese fleet in the godforsaken bay of the Korean city of Chemulpo. Discarding false patriotism, I believe that any of our ships is ten times stronger than an American one. Why? And name me at least one battle where the American fleet emerged victorious. So simply, off the top of my head, does anyone know and remember? But sailing (I consider the word “walking” inappropriate for American ships) and piracy in the seas and oceans is a small science, if only there was a desire, and a few thousand notorious thugs - Jack Sparrows and Blackbeards, and it’s in the bag.
  56. 0
    6 June 2016 17: 19
    Promising and tempting! Warms the soul 100%! But still...When will engineer Garin show his hyperboloid? Discussions about it have been going on for 80 years.
  57. 0
    6 June 2016 17: 28
    Great article, thanks!
  58. Old
    +1
    6 June 2016 23: 29
    . For those who like to shout hurray. Volcanoes on the Moskva are a formidable weapon. But what's the point of comparing it to an aircraft carrier? The Americans will not allow a direct clash. Why take the risk? This is not their genre.
    Comrade patriots, compare the composition and capabilities of the combined fleets of NATO and Russia. I recently read an article about the English fleet: the new Brit submarine hears the Queen Elizabeth throughout the entire transatlantic passage, without leaving the wall!
    What ocean zone?! I wish I could protect my shores! And Boreev patrol zones. Therefore, all that remains is to threaten only two-meter (in diameter) torpedoes with cobalt casings and 100-mt charges.
    Or here’s “Leader”, the new destroyer has not yet been laid down, but it is already the best in the world! No, we are definitely of the same blood as crests! It’s just that, stupidly, we won’t catch up with them. Unless Yellowstone fails.
  59. +1
    6 June 2016 23: 37
    Yes, judging by the number of downvotes given to this wonderful article, liberals are succeeding in their subversive activities.
  60. 0
    10 June 2016 22: 07
    Someday we will join NATO all the way to the Netherlands (not my thing, but I’m for it)! When a Russian soldier has a bullet, matches, moonshine, suck the dick, nata soldiers, trembling with fear, the Pentagon!
  61. +2
    12 June 2016 15: 58
    I read an article that described a hypothetical confrontation between such groups. And the emphasis there was completely different. It said that the USSR used to have special means of tracking AUG. And today this topic is lame. The question is not that the volcano shoots at 1000 kilometers, and the Hornet flies at 800. But the fact is that it is not always and not everywhere today that it is apparently possible to take aim at this AUG. This article is also good, but it is about a different aspect; it considers a situation when everything has already been discovered. However, this is the last phase of the confrontation between the factions - a direct duel. In the event of a global conflict, the first strike will be on the satellites. What the confrontation between the above-mentioned naval formations will look like in such a situation is not entirely clear.
    1. 0
      28 May 2019 16: 07
      I wrote below how. Simply because for us what these satellites are and what they are not - we don’t have them.
      And “Strike on satellites” - can you tell me what? The IS has not been put into operation, the A-135 is intended for the defense of Moscow 40 km up, and the P-500 is still not in service. Let's spit at the ceiling, maybe we'll hit it?
  62. 0
    20 June 2016 23: 10
    There are no ideal battles (when two ships, knowing about the start of an attack, come together as duelists), everything will happen exactly when the order to attack is received, i.e. at a completely inopportune moment for one of the parties, and then as God willing... I hope “Moscow” will have these 700-1000 km
  63. 0
    18 November 2016 12: 57
    author:
    This means that an aircraft carrier can only be attacked by 20 aircraft, and the first aircraft launched will have to wait for the rest, circling over the aircraft carrier, wasting precious fuel. It’s almost an hour until the whole group starts up! And this significantly reduces their flight range. Almost double! Only the latter can immediately fly to the target at maximum range. The first ones are forced to attach additional fuel tanks in order to be able to return later. The author of this much more reasoned article comes to a conclusion opposite to what Sivkov does:

    answer:
    why not use refuelers to assemble a single fist of 40 planes and this fist would fly to bomb our cruiser??? this option is quite possible. It also doesn’t need to be ruled out. The American mattress guys are not that stupid. The worst thing is not to underestimate the enemy. the author cites a lot as evidence; it’s interesting to read. Everything is chewed over, but there is also something that is not taken into account. And the article is not bad, but still, don’t forget that the American mattress makers from the underworld work and are very cunning. They haven’t fought in a fair fight since the times of Vietnam when they Vanka Lisitsyn kicked ass (he was such a Vietnamese))
  64. +1
    11 May 2017 00: 05
    The Vulcan P-1000 anti-ship missile is a modification of the Basalt P-500 anti-ship missile.
  65. +1
    11 May 2017 00: 44
    GSH-18,
    Are you seriously considering a collision with the US AUG of our Navy?
    Firstly, all these AUGs do not pose any threat to us (Russian territory), except perhaps only for the Kuril Islands.
    Secondly, no naval battles of the country with thermonuclear weapons are envisaged.
  66. 0
    28 May 2019 16: 03
    Tell me how you will ensure TARGET DESIGNATION. ICRC "Legend" has fallen. 4 Liana satellites are not capable of providing command control for the fleet. And what does it mean? That you need illumination either from an over-the-horizon radar (because it’s good to fly at 1000 km, by the way, the P-1000 VULCAN is not a modification of the Granit P-700, but the P-500 Basalt). and speed 2,5M -> fly 1200s. 20 minutes. either from a reconnaissance aircraft or from a nuclear submarine.
    But the AUG has 4 AWACS aircraft, of which, in a situation where a strike is possible, 2 will be in the air. And they are able to provide illumination to EVERYONE due to their system. And the escort and interception unit, and the ships. which will be able to hit the P-1000 while it is flying at 14 km altitude, on the marching section, with their SM-3, SM-6. Only 16 missiles for such a crowd? Everyone will be shot down. As tests have shown, with external illumination, Arlie Burke shoots down targets with a 3M Mosquito anti-ship missile system.
    That's all. And no Bill.
    And unlike the P-1000, the Old Harpoon moves slowly, yes... but at a low altitude. AWACS in the backlight 400 km away, the flight will descend and strike without showing itself, and now our cruiser is fighting for its life, having detected missiles 30 km away.
    Why 1-2 missiles? Harpoon weighs 700kg, and with a purely COMBAT load of 8 tons, each fighter will carry 4 missiles.
    And yes, 726km+280km (yes, the Harpoon version also flies at 280) seems to me to be all 1000km? without PTB.
    I don’t know how it is with the lifting of aircraft, why 6 and not 20, but even 6x4 is 24 missiles. Already critical.
    And 20 aircraft will already give us 80 missiles, which is not a fact that even the AUG can handle it.
    Moreover, what is the problem of assembling, like our rockets, on the road, flying at different speeds, in an hour - I don’t know. I know that 48x4=192=death.
  67. +1
    5 December 2019 02: 40
    Moscow is armed with Vulcan anti-ship missiles, with a range of 1000 km...
  68. -5
    30 June 2022 08: 07
    6 years have passed, and we can now look from the heights of history at this cheerful propaganda article in which
    Our anti-aircraft complex is not inferior in characteristics to the Western one, rather superior to it. This means its effectiveness is no less. The likelihood that 6 Harpoons (or even 12) will overcome all three lines of defense of the cruiser is very low


    You understand how much the author lies in the eyes of readers, and the cheers-trash supports him in this
    The article is a big plus - a very good, albeit not a sinless analysis.
    The article criticized by the author is one of the elements of liberal "care" about the fatherland, which should creep into souls like a snake and sow doubts in the minds.


    So if anyone ever gets around to this comment, know the true cost of propaganda and wow

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