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A sensation from geneticists: the pro-Slavs came to India, and not vice versa

105
A sensation from geneticists: the pro-Slavs came to India, and not vice versa



Slavs and Indians have one common ancestor who lived about 4300 years ago

We continue to publish the results of the study of Professor Anatoly Klyosov. Home - Slavs: the discovery of genetics reverses the usual ideas

Each man’s DNA, namely his Y-chromosome, has certain areas in which mutations gradually accumulate once in several generations, time after time, in nucleotides. It has nothing to do with genes. And in general, DNA only on 2% consists of genes, and the male sex Y-chromosome is even less, there are only a small percentage of genes.

The Y chromosome is the only 46 chromosome from all (more precisely, from the 23's that the spermatozoon carries), which is transmitted from father to son, and then to each next son along a chain of times tens of thousands of years old. The son receives the Y chromosome from the father exactly the same that he received from his father, plus new mutations, if any, occurred during the transmission from the father to his son. And it happens rarely. How rare?

Here is an example. This is my 25-marker Slavic haplotype, genus R1a:
13 24 16 11 11 15 12 12 10 13 11 30 16 9 10 11 11 24 14 20 34 15 15 16 16

Each digit is the number of repetitions of a specific sequence of small nucleotide blocks (called “markers”) on the Y chromosome of the DNA. It is called the allele. Mutations in such a haplotype (that is, a random change in the number of nucleotide blocks) occur at a rate of one mutation approximately in the 22 generation, that is, on average once every 550 years - for the entire haplotype. In other words, for every 22 birth of boys - on average - some allele changes.

In each marker, the mutation rate is on average 25 times slower, that is, times in 550 generations, or approximately once in 14 thousands of years. Or, which is the same - on average 550 birth times for boys. Which allele will change next - no one knows, and it is impossible to predict. Statistics. In other words, here we can speak only about the probabilities of these changes.

In my earlier stories about DNA genealogy, I gave examples on the so-called 6-marker haplotypes, small, for simplification. Or they are also called “bikini haplotypes”. But to search for the ancestral home of the Slavs, a tool is needed that is much more accurate. Therefore, we will use 25 marker haplotypes in this story. Since any male 50 has millions of nucleotides in the Y chromosome, the haplotype with its numbers can in principle be extended arbitrarily long, this is only a matter of the technique for determining nucleotide sequences. Haplotypes determine the maximum length of 111 markers, although technically there is no limit. But 25 marker haplotypes are a very subtle resolution, such haplotypes are not even considered by scientific articles. They are usually limited to 8, 10, or 17-marker haplotypes. In my articles, I usually analyze 67-marker or sometimes 111-marker haplotypes, although according to the latest data are few, there are only a few hundred haplotypes in the databases. In the 67-marker version, my haplotype looks like this:

13 24 16 11 11 15 12 12 10 13 11 30 16 9 10 11 11 24 14 20 34 15 15 16 16 11 11 19 23 15 16 17 21 36 41 12 11 11 9 17 17 8 11 10 8 10 10 12 22 22 15 10 12 12 13 8 15 23 21 12 13 11 13 11 11 12 13

I could bring my 111 marker, but readers should be spared. The coincidence of such haplotypes in two people who are not related by close kinship is extremely unlikely. In other words, this is the actual passport issued by nature and recorded in DNA forever.

In order not to complicate the description, we will continue to use 25-marker haplotypes, although any of the following can be easily extended to the 67-marker, and many to the 111-marker. Haplotypes are extremely sensitive to origin, talking about genealogical genera. Take, not R1a, but, say, the South Baltic genus, N1 and 1, in the DNA genealogy system. He is also mostly Slavic, at least in the present, and 14% of ethnic Russians have him, especially in the north of Russia and in the Baltic States.

A typical 25 marker haplotype of this kind looks like this:
14 23 14 11 11 13 11 12 10 14 14 30 18 9 9 11 12 25 14 19 28 14 14 15 15

It has 28 mutations on 25 markers compared to the above R1a haplotype (it should be noted that some mutations are considered in a special way, but we will not dwell on this now). This corresponds to a difference of one thousand three hundred generations, that is, the common ancestor of these two (now) Slavic haplotypes lived more than 20 thousands of years ago. A closer look reveals that the common ancestor of R1a and N1c1 lived more than 40 thousands of years ago. In order to become Slavs, both types went through completely different migration routes, although these paths began, apparently, on the Russian Plain, went almost together to Southern Siberia, and then diametrically opposed.

R1a carriers went west along the southern geographic arc, from southern Siberia through Tibet, Hindustan, crossed the Iranian plateau, Anatolia (that is, modern Turkey), reached the Balkans about 10 thousands of years ago, and about 5 thousands of years ago switched to the east, to Russian plain. The carriers of the parental haplogroup N1 went from southern Siberia along the northern geographic arc, in general, "counterclockwise", through the northern Urals and then on to the Baltic states. They have descendants everywhere along this migration trajectory, among them, for example, the Yakuts, then the Urals, and so on to the Baltic states. Therefore, it is difficult to call them one common name, Yakut from Balts is noticeably different. And the genus is one.

By the way, the Southern Balts separated from the Finno-Ugric people about 2000 years ago, although both of them have one genus, N1c1. But the branches of the genus are already different, and the haplotypes differ in many ways. And the languages ​​differ, the former mostly have Indo-European, Slavic languages, and the latter have Finno-Ugric languages.

The same picture is obtained if we compare the Slavs of the genus R1a, for example, with the Jews. The typical Middle Eastern haplotype of the Jews (genus J1) is:

12 23 14 10 13 15 11 16 12 13 11 30 17 8 9 11 11 26 14 21 27 12 14 16 17

It has 32 mutations in relation to the Slavic R1a. Even further than the southern Balts or the Finno-Ugrians. And between the Jews and the Finno-Ugrians differ in 35 mutations.

In general, the idea is clear. Haplotypes are very sensitive when compared with representatives of different genera. They reflect completely different stories genus, origin, migration of childbirth. But why are there Finno-Ugrians or Jews! Take the Bulgarians, bratushek. Up to half of them have variations of such a haplotype (genus I2):

13 24 16 11 14 15 11 13 13 13 11 31 17 8 10 11 11 25 15 20 32 12 14 15 15

It has a 21 mutation with respect to the above East Slav haplotype R1a. That is, they are both Slavic, but the genus is different. The genus I2 is descended from a different ancestor, the migration routes of the genus I2 were completely different than R1a. It was later, already in our era or at the end of the past, they met and formed a Slavic cultural-ethnic community, and then they joined writing and religion. And the genus is basically different, although 12% of Bulgarians are East Slavic, R1a genus.

It is very important that the number of mutations in the haplotypes can be calculated when the common ancestor of a group of people lived - the haplotypes that we are considering. I will not stop here, exactly how the calculations are carried out, since all this was published in the scientific press several years ago. The bottom line is that the more mutations in a group of people the haplotypes, the older their common ancestor. And since mutations occur completely statistically, irregularly, at a certain average speed, the lifetime of a common ancestor of a group of people belonging to the same genus is calculated quite reliably. Examples will be given below.

To make it clearer, I will give a simple analogy. The haplotype tree is a pyramid that stands on top. The peak at the bottom is a haplotype of a common ancestor of the genus, the pyramid diverges from it. The base of the pyramid, at the very top - we, contemporaries, are our haplotypes. The number of mutations in each haplotype is a measure of the distance from a common ancestor, from the top of the pyramid, to us contemporaries. If the pyramid were perfect - three points, that is, three haplotypes at the base would be enough to calculate the distance to the top. But in reality, three points are few. Experience shows that a dozen 25-marker haplotypes (which means 250 points) is enough for a good estimate of the time to a common ancestor.

25-marker (and in fact, 67-and 111-marker) haplotypes of Russians and Ukrainians of the genus R1a were obtained from the international database YSearch. The carriers of these haplotypes are our contemporaries, living from the Far East to western Ukraine, and from the northern to the southern suburbs. And so it was calculated that the common ancestor of the Russian and Ukrainian Eastern Slavs, the genus R1a, lived 4800 years ago. This figure is quite reliable, it has been verified by cross-sectional calculations for haplotypes of different lengths. And, as we will see now, this figure is not accidental. Calculations were carried out on 67- and 111-marker haplotypes. This is already the top aerobatics of DNA genealogy, if you call a spade a spade.

It turned out that the common pre-Slavic ancestor who lived 4800 years ago had this haplotype:
13 25 16 10 11 14 12 12 10 13 11 30 15 9 10 11 11 24 14 20 32 12 15 15 16

For comparison, here is my haplotype:
13 24 16 11 11 15 12 12 10 13 11 30 16 9 10 11 11 24 14 20 34 15 15 16 16

In comparison with the Proto-Slavic ancestor, I have 10 mutations running out (in bold). If we recall that mutations in such a haplotype occur approximately once in 550 years, then 5500 years separate me from my ancestor. But we are talking about statistics, and for all the circle turns 4800 years. I ran more mutations, someone else - less. In other words, each of us has its own individual mutations, but the ancestor's haplotype is all one. And he, as we shall see, holds on like this almost throughout Europe.

So let's take a breath. Our common pre-Slavic ancestor in the territory of modern Russia-Ukraine-Belarus-Poland lived 4800 years ago. Early Bronze Age, or even the Eneolithic, the transition from the Stone Age to the Bronze Age. To imagine the time scale, this is much earlier than the exodus of the Jews from Egypt, according to biblical tales. And they came out, if you follow the interpretations of the Torah, 3500-3600 years ago. If we ignore the interpretation of the Torah, which, of course, is not a strict scientific source, it can be noted that the common ancestor of the Eastern Slavs lived a thousand years before the eruption of Santorin (Thera), which destroyed the Minoan civilization on the island of Crete.

Now we can begin to build a sequence of events in our ancient history. 4800 years ago, the Proto-Slavs of the genus R1a appeared on the Russian Plain, and not just some Proto-Slavs, but those whose descendants live in our time, tens of millions of people. 3800 years ago, arias, descendants of those early Slavs (and having an identical ancestral haplotype, as will be shown below), built the site of ancient settlement Arkaim (its present name), Sintashtu and the “country of cities” in the Southern Urals. 3600 years ago, Arkaim left the arias, and moved to India. Indeed, according to archaeologists, the mound, which is now called Arkaim, existed just 200 years.

Stop! And where did we get this from, that they were descendants of our ancestors, the Slavs?

How from? And R1a, the label kind? She, this label, accompanies all haplotypes listed above. So, it can be used to determine what kind of people were those who went to India.

By the way, here's more data. In a recent work of German scientists identified nine fossil haplotypes from Northern Kazakhstan - South Ural (what is called Andronovo archaeological culture), and it turned out that eight of them belong to the genus R1a, and one - Mongoloid, genus C. Dating - between 5500 and 1800 years ago. Haplotypes of the genus R1a, for example, are as follows:

13 25 16 11 11 14 XYZ 14 11 32

Here, undeciphered markers are replaced by letters. Very similar to the Slavic haplotypes R1a, cited above, on the first 12 markers, especially when you consider that these ancients also carry individual, random mutations.

Currently, the share of Slavs, descendants of the Aryans of the haplogroup R1a in Lithuania is 38%, in Latvia - 41%, in Belarus - 50%, in Ukraine - 45%. In Russia, the Slavs R1a on average 48%, due to the high proportion of southern Balts in the north of Russia, but in the south and in the center of Russia the proportion of Eastern Slavs R1a reaches 60-75%.

Now about the Haplotypes of the Hindus and the lifetime of their common ancestor. Immediately make a reservation - I deliberately write "Hindus", and not "Indians", because most Indians belong to the natives, the Dravids, especially the Indians of southern India. And Hindus are in their mass just carriers of the haplogroup R1a. It would be wrong to write “Haplotype Indians”, since Indians in general belong to the most diverse genera of DNA genealogy.

In this sense, the expression “Haplotype Hindus” is simbatno to the expression “Haplotype Slavs”. It has a reflection of the “ethnocultural” component, but this is one of the signs of the genus.

In my early popular work on the haplotypes of Slavs and Hindus, I already wrote that they, Slavs and Hindus, had the same common ancestor. Both of them belong to the genus R1a, only in Russians such 50-75%, in Indians - 16%. That is, Russians from the genus R1a 40-60 million men, the Indians - 100 million. But in that work I described only the type of haplotypes, and short ones. Now we can already determine when the common ancestors of the Eastern Slavs and Hindus lived. Here is the ancestral haplotype of Indians of the same kind, R1a.

13 25 16 11 11 14 12 12 10 13 11 31 15 9 10 11 11 24 14 20 32 12 15 15 16

Almost exactly the same as the haplotype of the ancestor of the Slavs of the group R1a. There are two mutations, but in fact there are no mutations. The fourth number to the left of the Slavs there is 10.46, therefore, rounded to 10, and among the Indians there 10.53, rounded to 11. Actually it is the same. Similarly, with the average mutation, the proportion of units. The age of the common ancestor of the Indians is 3850 years. On 950 years younger than the Slavs.

Since the ancestral haplotypes in Hindus and Slavs almost coincide, and the Slavic haplotype on 950 is older, it is clear that these were the Slavs came to India, and not vice versa. Strictly speaking, these were not Pra-Slavs, but Pra-Indus, but they were descendants of Pra-Slavs.

If you add up all the haplotypes of the Slavs and Hindus, since they are supposedly from one ancestor, then the differences disappear altogether. Common ancestral haplotype of Slavs and Indians:

13 25 16 10 11 14 12 12 10 13 11 30 15 9 10 11 11 24 14 20 32 12 15 15 16

It is identical to the common ancestor haplotype of the Slavs of the group R1a. The lifetime of the common ancestor of the Slavs and Indians - 4300 years ago. This is because averaging occurred during the addition. If to simplify completely, it is because not everyone has reached India. For those who came, the common ancestor was already "younger." Ancestor - Proto-Slavic, he is older. After 500 years, the Proto-Slavs-Aryans will build Arkaim, after another 200 years they will go to India, and the Indians will start counting from their common ancestor, again Proto-Slavic, 3850 years ago. It all fits.

Currently, the proportion of Aryan Indians, R1a, is 16% across the country, second only to the most common Indian “native” haplogroup, Х1 (20%). And in the higher castes, the haplogroup R1a takes up to 72%. Let us dwell on this in a bit more detail.

As is known, society in India is divided into castes and tribes. The four main castes, or “varnas,” are the brahmans (priests), the kshatriyas (warriors), the vaishyas (merchants, farmers, herders) and the sudras (workers and servants). In the scientific literature, they are divided into "Indo-European" and "Dravidian" castes, each of which has three levels - the highest caste, the middle and the lowest. Tribes are divided into Indo-European, Dravidian, Burma-Tibetan and Australian-Asian. As it was determined recently, this entire male population in India can be divided into a dozen or a half basic haplogroups — Mongoloid C, Iranian-Caucasian G, Indian H, L, and R2 (which are extremely rare in the world except India), Middle Eastern J1, Mediterranean (and Middle Eastern) J2, East Asian Oh, Siberian Q, East European (Aryan) R1a, West European (and Asian) R1b. By the way, European Roma, as you know, people from India 500-800 years ago, overwhelmingly have the H1 and R2 haplogroups.

The main share of both higher castes, Indo-European and Dravidian, consists of representatives of the Aryan haplogroup R1a. They are up to 72% in the Indo-European higher caste, and 29% in the Dravidian higher caste. The remaining members of the higher castes are carriers of Indian haplogroups R2 (16% and 10%, respectively), L (5% and 17%), H (12% and 7%), the rest are units of percent.

In contrast, the East Asian haplogroup O prevails in the tribes (53% in the Australian-Asian, 66% in the Burma-Tibetan and 29% in the "Indo-European" tribes) and the "native" Indian N (37% in the Dravidian tribes).

In principle, this is consistent with the ancient migration flows. The oldest stream, 40-25 thousands of years ago, brought future Dravidians, East Asians and Australo-Asians to the south, to India, but from where it led - science is not very well known, either from the west, for example, from Mesopotamia, or from the south. Another stream, and perhaps a small stream, led 15-12 thousands of years ago, the earliest carriers of the R1a from the east, from Southern Siberia, from the Altai, on the road to the west. The descendants of these very first R1a have been living since then in the jungle, in Indian tribes. In the higher caste, they, as a rule, did not fall. After many millennia, roughly 8 thousands of years ago, the second wave of Dravidians came to India from the Mediterranean and the Middle East, bringing with them the skills of emerging agriculture, together with the haplogroup J2, which is now in higher castes up to 24%, and in tribes - up to 33 % And finally, 3500 years ago, carriers of the haplogroup R1a arrived in India from the southern Urals under the name of the Aryans. Under it, they entered the Indian epic. Interestingly, the Indian caste system itself was created about the same 3500 years ago.

So again. Slavs and Indians have one common ancestor of the genus R1a, who lived about 4300 years ago, and the ancestor of the Slavs themselves, with the same haplotype, lived a little earlier, 4800 years ago. His descendant after 950 years began the genealogical line among the Hindus, starting from 3850 years ago, just from the beginning of Arkaim. R1a - these were the arias that came to India. And when they came, and that led them there - I will tell later, and before that we'll see when the common ancestors of the genus R1a lived throughout Europe. Then we will make a general picture, where they lived before everyone else, that is, where their ancestral homeland was, and where and when they moved from their ancestral homeland.

We can rightfully call them Aryans, instead of the faceless R1a, and even more so instead of the clumsy “Indo-Europeans” or “Proto-Indo-Europeans”. Arias they are, dear reader, arias. And there was nothing “Indo-Iranian” in them, until, naturally, until they came to India and Iran. And they did not get the language from India or Iran, but rather brought theirs there. Aryan. Proto-Slavic. Sanskrit. Or Proto-Sanskrit, if you like.
Author:
Originator:
http://www.km.ru/science-tech/2016/05/20/istoriya-rusi/777041-sensatsiya-ot-genetikov-praslavyane-prishli-v-indiyu-ne
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  1. Koshak
    Koshak 28 May 2016 05: 09
    +27
    Half of humanity are brothers! The rest are sisters! Except non-humans, of course.
    1. atalef
      atalef 28 May 2016 21: 02
      +3
      Well, Zhirinovsky’s dream came true, the Slavs still wash their boots in the Indian Ocean.
      1. Mahmut
        Mahmut 28 May 2016 21: 21
        +5
        Crushed with intellect, little devil.
    2. Litsvin
      Litsvin 28 May 2016 23: 05
      +2
      I read the works of Anatoly Klesov for a long time - it’s strongly written and, most importantly, truthfully - it was based not on the nose of the pick-up speculations of English scientists of the 19th century, but on DNA - i.e. on the fact that it is impossible to distort at all, NO.

      ARIA - these are our GREAT ANCESTORS, and I ask "many not in the subject" not to immediately carry any nonsense about "all kinds of Hitlers, Nazis, etc. scum" hammered into the heads of our people by various "Soviet historians" there, many of whom, for some reason, they were representatives of one of the Middle Eastern ethnic groups, "who had a good feeling in Russia since 1917," when they made a coup with the money of American Jew-masons, committed a ritual murder with the participation of the rabbi of the lawful Tsar of Russia Nicholas 2 together with his family, tried to destroy the Orthodox Faith and the Church, and turn Russia into a country of goyim (in Hebrew - slaves) for the extraction of our own natural resources. And if the Great Stalin had not cut off the head of this "Middle Eastern International" led by Bronstein-Trotsky in 1926, the Americans would not even need the "Hitler project" - Russia would have been destroyed anyway. But it didn't work out.

      German Nazis to the Sacred Swastika, more precisely the Sacred Swastikas (including Slavic braces - 144 species are known) - in Sanskrit "sva" (sky) "s" (direction) "tick" (to move) - (straight in the modern way like children - tick, more folder zaras adluptsue shitik) DO NOT HAVE ANY RELATIONSHIP. They never called their "swastika" that way, but called "curved cross" or "hoe cross". The swastika is OUR HISTORICAL SYMBOL, the oldest image of which on the territory of Russia is about 6300 years old, when "there were no Jews in sight, and even Egyptians."

      "Swastika", or rather many of its types, is widespread among many peoples of Russia, including those and among us the Slavs. It is used in Christian architecture (the same Cathedral of St. Basil the Blessed), and in the church vestments of Orthodox priests, and in historical national clothes, and on the weapons and armor of Russian princes, and many other places. In the same house of the Ipatievs, before the fierce execution, the empress painted Svatik on the wall and set the date.
      The most interesting thing is that the shape of galaxies is also the Swastika. Appreciate, Slavs, what is given to us from Above, and do not believe any "charlottes", not our nation, who distort our history and try to parasitize on us
      .


      Anatoly Klesov, continue your research. Well done, you took up a very relevant topic in terms of ethnogenesis and ethnogeography. We will be waiting for your new discoveries. The science of DNA genealogy will answer many more questions that are considered unsolved in the history of mankind.
      1. Tired
        Tired 29 May 2016 03: 53
        -2
        After the freemasons performing ritual killings, they might not have continued. This topic is no longer for ethnographers or biologists, but for psychiatrists or RenTv producers.
    3. Vend
      Vend 30 May 2016 10: 06
      +3
      This has been discussed for a long time. Evidence used the Vedas, language. Now, and genetics connected. It's good.
  2. Tired
    Tired 28 May 2016 05: 43
    .
    "Aryami, instead of the faceless R1a, and even more so instead of the awkward" Indo-Europeans "or" Proto-Indo-Europeans. " However, what a modesty. Write right away - true Aryans.
    1. Rarog
      Rarog 28 May 2016 05: 52
      +27
      Aryans are a scientific term; Aryans are not.
      1. Tired
        Tired 28 May 2016 06: 34
        .
        The Slavs (of course with the prefix "pra", so as not to confuse the people) who came to India from Arkaim on mammoths and taught the Indians to speak Sanskrit have nothing to do with science. But with ideology (the same with the Aryans and the swastika) they are in perfect agreement.
        1. Blondy
          Blondy 28 May 2016 08: 29
          +2
          Oh, guys, you would be more careful with the official history and scientific evidence based on the judgments of the "authorities" of their time who shoved the Polish into their mouths. Until the 20th century, this was the main method of argumentation, not to mention the competence of documentary examination.
          1. Mahmut
            Mahmut 28 May 2016 21: 25
            +2
            Aryans are a scientific term; Aryans are not.

            A true Aryan is one who owns at least 10 acres of land.
    2. andrew42
      andrew42 28 May 2016 16: 00
      +4
      I’ll also pour gasoline into the fire of your indignation. Race is also a self-name. A Rasseniya / Ruthenia / Russia - the territory inhabited by the Race.
      1. MaksoMelan
        MaksoMelan 29 May 2016 09: 37
        +4
        Chorus dregs!
        "The word" race "in Russian has been known since the middle of the XNUMXth century, being a borrowing from French race or German Rasse, which in turn go back to Spanish raza or Italian razza. Further etymology is not entirely clear: there are versions about the origin of the word from Lat. generatio ("birth, ability to reproduce"), Latin ratio ("genus", "breed", "variety") or Arabic ra's ("head", "origin", "beginning") ".
        And also listen to the topic on "linguistics" what from what and how words come from and how they swing the language into the language. I will more believe that Russia is a fighting squad. Initially, it is too painful for us to fight. Both Hitler and Napoleon were beaten. Then, by race, if you look at it, the Europeans are much farther in kinship than our Tatars. And on the paternal side and not what some thought. The same Polovtsians, as far as I read, adopted a nomadic life, and according to evidence, the Ryazan face. I will add more about the speech. It seems to us that the term was adopted because of the speech similar. And the idea was not in speech. This is the REPUBLIC. A kind of EU. And they invited Grozny to rule there. Would he have accepted the offer then maybe they would not have dogged themselves with the Poles and the Balts.
  3. Alisher
    Alisher 28 May 2016 06: 30
    +10
    Map of the migration of haplogroup R1a from the Neolithic to the Late Bronze Age (c. 1000 BC) http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml

    Map, in order to make it clearer what is at stake.
    1. Cossack Ermak
      Cossack Ermak 28 May 2016 10: 59
      +5
      The map was written by illiterate people. Or corresponded .. Read the names in English. Androvon expansion ....
      1. Alisher
        Alisher 28 May 2016 15: 25
        +2
        Androvon expansion

        Well, yes, with errors, there must be an Andronovo culture, too much is horrible. https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovskaya_kultura. Wikipedia has the same map for R1a.
  4. Alisher
    Alisher 28 May 2016 07: 08
    +4
    Haplogroup R1a-Z93 distribution in Europe, the Middle East, South Asia and Central Asia

    Shown here is just that branch which the author calls "Hindus" - R1a1a1b2. And the ancestors of the Scandinavians and Proto-Slavs are R1a1a1b1a.
    Please note that on the map over Kazakhstan there is a concentration of this haplogroup - these are the Bashkirs. Also, if you look closely, then on the border of Turkey and Syria there is an increase in concentration in the places of residence of the Kurds. The Kyrgyz have a high concentration. More preserved in mountainous areas.

    Quote from http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml
    "R1a-Z93 is the main Asian branch of R1a. It is found in Central Asia, South Asia and Southwest Asia (including among Ashkenazi Jews). R1a-Z93 is a marker of historical peoples such as Indo-Aryans, Persians, Media, Mitanni, or Tatars, and entered the gene pool of Arabs and Jews.
    Its subclade R1a-M434 makes up a small percentage of the Pakistani population. Traces have also been found in Oman. "
    1. venaya
      venaya 28 May 2016 11: 37
      +6
      Quote: Alisher
      the subclade R1a-M434 makes up a small percentage of the Pakistani population. Traces have also been found in Oman. "

      I will add that it is small but very influential. In particular, the clan of the Saudis, the direct descendants of the prophet Mohammed on the male "Y" chromosome, is represented in the overwhelming percentage of the haplogroup R1a1a, of course I do not want to draw any conclusions, but still very interesting. I do not think that any of the geneticists will dare to investigate the genetic code of the prophet himself. These people are mostly sober, they still have a pity to live, at least for science.
  5. Alisher
    Alisher 28 May 2016 07: 34
    +7
    Haplogroup R1a distribution in Europe
    1. venaya
      venaya 28 May 2016 11: 05
      +5
      It is interesting to know when and by whom this map was compiled; according to other sources, the distribution of haplogroup R1a is somewhat different. In particular, the largest percentage of haplogroup R1a, in contrast to R1a1, is observed in the territory of modern Latvia. In the modern Russian Federation, the subgroup R1a1a1 is more often represented. And one more thing: the closest haplogroup R2, of which the Gypsies are usually carriers, parted with the common haplogroup R about 20 years ago in the area in the Sayan Mountains and moved to modern Hindustan, while herds of mammoths were still running on the territory of what was then Siberia and the weather was then significant more favorable for living (there were other forests). Closest to the common haplogroup R, haplogroup Q is represented by the now indigenous Indians of the American continent, what else are the haplogroup "H" - the present-day Fino-Ugrians and haplogroup "O" - mostly Mongoloid peoples, primarily the south of China, Polynesia, Tibetan peoples, related the inhabitants of modern Mongolia and many other peoples with an admixture of the Mongoloid race. Science, despite great obstacles, now has rather rapid development, it makes no sense to rely on one map in this matter, it is desirable to obtain information from various sources, in particular, the "language of the sacred writing" (Sanskrit - in English) has the closest linguistic relatives in the territory Arkhangelsk Pomors (ancient Russians, by the way) live in the White Sea region, and you don't have the R000a1a1 haplogroup on your map at all - now these are the main speakers of the Russian language. In general, the card is very outdated, now it is no longer possible to use it.
      1. Alisher
        Alisher 28 May 2016 15: 00
        +1
        I do not think that the map is very outdated, it (they are maps of different haplogroups) will be updated as information is collected. And the empty space indicates that there is either not enough information, or there is basically another haplogroup. The source of the map is indicated in the comment above - http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml

        The article mentions
        Haplogroup R2 (M124)
        At least 90% of carriers of haplogroup R2 live within the Indian subcontinent. The frequency of this haplogroup among the population of India and Sri Lanka is 10-15%. The highest frequency was found in Telugu ethnic groups (Andhra Pradesh state - 35–55%), West Bengalis (23%), and Pallans (14%) [1]. Among the population of Pakistan, this haplogroup occurs with a frequency of 7-8%.

        In the group of gypsy synthis, who are from India, haplogroup R2 was detected with a frequency of 53%, however, the sample was only 15 people, so it is premature to draw conclusions [1].

        Haplogroup R2 with moderate and low frequency was found in the population of Central Asia. Its frequency among Tajiks is 6%, among Karakalpaks 6,8%, among the Dungans of Kyrgyzstan 5%, among Turkmens 3,3%, among Uzbeks 2,2%, among Kazakhs 1,9% [2].

        Among the peoples of the Caucasus, R2 was found with a rather high frequency among the Kurds of Georgia (44%), Chechens (15,8%), Ossetians (8%), Balkars (8%), Azerbaijanis (3%), Kumyks (2,6%) , Avar (2,4%), drill up to (2%), Armenians (2%), Georgians (1-6%). This haplogroup was also detected in Kalmyks with a frequency of 6%
        https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Гаплогруппа_R2_(Y-ДНК)
  6. Mikhail Matyugin
    Mikhail Matyugin 28 May 2016 08: 41
    +5
    Very cool stuff! and by the way strictly scientific!
    1. Nightrain
      Nightrain 28 May 2016 10: 22
      -4
      This "klesovschina" is the fruit of the work of a well-known speculator on real genetic research. The Slavs really come from some kind of ancestral people, apparently very close genetically to the ancient Aryans. Moreover, in the folklore and customs of the Slavs, many simply amazingly archaic phenomena have been preserved. But to talk about some Slavic-Aryans or Proto-Slavs is ridiculous, so many different twists and turns happened during this time. Pearl in the article about the fact that the Finns and the Balts stood out from one people - in general, know the comments.
    2. kalibr
      kalibr 28 May 2016 12: 57
      +2
      Strictly, there are a lot of numbers and clever and abstruse words. Links to well-known refereed publications and, accordingly, articles in them would make it scientific. However, here at VO all this has already happened many times. Look at the materials "We are all from the same ship", "Russians against Hyperborea" ...
      1. Nightrain
        Nightrain 28 May 2016 13: 13
        +3
        Klesov uses quite real and serious scientific data in his "research". All this can be found on eupedia.com, but the conclusions are completely distorting reality. The main game of Klesov is that he tries to link ethnos with a haplogroup.
  7. Sarmat149
    Sarmat149 28 May 2016 08: 51
    +13
    I studied the author’s publications several years ago. For me, this is another proof of the hostility and bankruptcy of the Norman theory of statehood of Russia. The first against the Norman origin of power was Mikhailo Lomonosov.
    1. venaya
      venaya 28 May 2016 10: 13
      +10
      In addition: A more detailed interpretation of the haplogroup R1a1a shows that its Scandinavian subgroup is present only in the territory of Scandinavia and has never been present in the rest of Russia, which additionally confirms the migration propagation vector towards Scandinavia and not vice versa.
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 28 May 2016 13: 03
        +3
        The reason is the so-called "bottleneck". Was there a way "from the Varangians to the Greeks"? Was? On the way, the Varangians f ... s? Sure! But ... let's say one Varangian in one village covered 20 women. Three didn’t get sick, Three threw it off, five died in childbirth, and that left 9 children. 5 died before the age of 10, one at 12, 2 did not live to be of childbearing age. One of his descendants multiplied, his three children all died in infancy, and he was curled by a bear! Normal life. But in the end it’s as if this Varangian had ANYONE! Genes are passed on only when you live in one place for a long time! This is what is called a "bottleneck" in historical genetics.
        1. venaya
          venaya 28 May 2016 14: 18
          +5
          Quote: kalibr
          Was there a way "from the Varangians to the Greeks"? Was? On the way, the Varangians f ... s? Sure!

          I see you are not very interested in the principles of building the most ancient Russian culture, and it looks like you did not have to visit Scandinavia either. In order: In case of rape of a girl-daughter-in-law by a foreigner, she is obliged to "lay hands on herself," examples from the classics - "throw herself into the pool", etc. Thus, the purity of the tribe and, consequently, its survival is achieved, hence the special, highly sensitive psychophysics of girls-daughters-in-law, a similar example - "Romeo and Juliet", by the way, practically common for all peoples. If the rapist is from a related tribe. then he pledges to marry and feed the offspring. Further - Scandinavia in those years was very poor (this is very clearly visible in their museums) and trade with them was carried out by the Varangians / Veneti, originally from the continent, usually Russian-speaking, having a haplogroup - R1a1, inhabiting in those years almost all of today's Germany (previously Porusia), and the current Baltics as well. According to many studies, it is not legitimate to consider the Vikings as Scandinavians. Judging by the comments, the topic is very difficult to perceive, has many "pitfalls", Klyosov himself refers only to chemical-physical-mathematical research methods, and from them no signs of the presence of the Scandinavian subgroup of haplogroup R1a1 on the mainland were found. There is already too much information on this score, and so far it has not been possible to consider Scandinavians as Varangians.
          1. andrew42
            andrew42 28 May 2016 16: 06
            +7
            Yes, already a lot of artifacts have been discovered on the Vagria / Varyag theme (the mouth of the Pene, Schwerin, Rostock, etc.). Slavs of pure water. And the Scandinavians, relatives and descendants of Odin (Odinets), were kicked "with a scandal" for violating the Pocon to live on the northern rocks. About that and fairy tales came across. Therefore, after thousands of years, the Scandinavians did not like the Varangians, they tried not to take them into their raiding squads. Roughly speaking, they dispersed on the cultural issue. Here N1c1 relatives broke away. Therefore, the descendants of the Danes / Utes / Frisians did not like the inhabitants of the territory of present-day northeastern Germany (Varangians-Rus), and having adopted Christianity, they greatly helped the crusaders to trample the encouraging ones. A feud that goes back thousands of years.
          2. Rivares
            Rivares 28 May 2016 17: 34
            0
            Quote: venaya
            In case of rape of a girl-daughter-in-law by a foreigner, she is obliged to "lay hands on herself", examples from the classics - "to throw herself into the pool", etc.

            I have not seen anything like this anywhere else. Classic Stalinist "
            in case of threat of captivity, the Red Army soldier is obliged to commit suicide "))) Everyone knows how the Red Army soldiers committed suicide.
            1. MaksoMelan
              MaksoMelan 29 May 2016 10: 24
              +1
              And this happened. I read somewhere that it’s better not to approach the killed Russians. They can put a grenade under themselves or even be alive to undermine more people. Type preservation is not right for PMCs, not right for NATO.
          3. kalibr
            kalibr 28 May 2016 21: 12
            0
            That is, all the women who were raped in the past were drowned? It's hard to believe it. At all times there were both men and women who believed only in themselves and spat on all the gods and goddesses taken together, all the customs and traditions. And this is absolutely known. And I didn't invent the "bottleneck" effect. And why should I visit Scandinavia? Now you don't have to visit anything to know.
          4. MaksoMelan
            MaksoMelan 29 May 2016 10: 20
            +2
            There is another question in religion. Romeo and Juliet were Christians and lived among Christians. And in time then there were not many Christians in Russia. And on this basis, a lot of captives were taken prisoner to the Tatars or the Crimean Tatars or to the Ottoman Empire in the subsequent Turkey and the Byzantine Empire. Why didn’t they all commit suicide then? Such a question would not exist at all. Our people would not have been taken prisoner at all. (if there was still hope that the Duck would save their own, only Potemkin would deal with this issue). Another moment. Why does a girl drown, And kill a child? In remote settlements where everyone got married with one another (you can put another word), you need new blood. Otherwise, degeneration may begin. And sometimes a girl with a child is better at home to leave extra working hands grow up. They themselves can be poked. Especially if a dumb person what. And the girls themselves can flattery to anyone and with anyone. And it drowns if you have a family, for example, 7 children, and you need to feed them, and your husband will either bargain or go fishing or go camping or all at once. Ie you won’t leave children alone. Yes, even if with her husband. This is if raped. A lot of BUT!
      2. MaksoMelan
        MaksoMelan 29 May 2016 10: 03
        0
        This does not stop a couple of percent from the people who have nothing to do at home and staggering around the world, among our princes, to wade. Has anyone tested them for genetics?
    2. MaksoMelan
      MaksoMelan 29 May 2016 10: 01
      0
      Is that where it is?
  8. Basil50
    Basil50 28 May 2016 09: 34
    +8
    Have you noticed that neither the article nor the comments have * ideas * in the style of * great ukrov *?
    What our ancestors did is reflected in epics and legends, only the church does not need this, and they are trying to destroy memory. It is a pity that even today weak people need an external conscience, they themselves are not able to be people, the threat of punishment is mandatory for them. But the church and its ministers aspire not only to * upbringing *, but also to complete control of the history of OUR MOTHERLAND.
    1. Rivares
      Rivares 28 May 2016 17: 37
      +2
      Quote: Vasily50
      that our ancestors did is reflected in epics and legends, only the church doesn’t need it,

      Not just churches. As burry communists came to power in 17, for ideological reasons, the bylin about Dobrynya and the Jewish newspaper stopped printing)
  9. Red_Hamer
    Red_Hamer 28 May 2016 10: 40
    +3
    By the way, about the author of the article: Klesov Anatoly Alekseevich, Doctor of Chemistry, Professor, etc. Look on the internet if anyone is interested. A good article, I read the truth before, and not only her. In this publication, lost (copyright notes, highlighting in bold text), for matching the same codes as it is in the original source.
  10. King, just king
    King, just king 28 May 2016 13: 27
    0
    It, of course, is a science. But somehow, it’s milder ... Kalyakaya such an article, it (the article) should be placed either in a specialized chemical-medical journal, or given at the end of a glossary, or written in plain Russian, i.e. chewing for amateurs. And dumping on a simple reader mutations with haplotypes is too much. Moreover, hde evidence, hde studies were conducted, who investigated how and when. Opponents hde. In general, a lot of questions.
    I, too, can make a thread specific for construction, with SNiP and GOST, let readers scratch their lips ...

    To be honest, I didn’t understand a jade rod, except that our ancestors domesticated mammoths and fed hay, only the mountains are somehow strange. The artist threw something, probably.
  11. Diviz
    Diviz 28 May 2016 14: 43
    +2
    4800 years is similar to the beginning of the date of the creation of the World in the Star Temple in the calendar of the Slavs.
    1. venaya
      venaya 28 May 2016 15: 49
      +5
      To be honest, quite a lot of calendars have already been discovered, for example, academician M. Lomonosov referred to a calendar with an age of 399 years, for which he suffered a lot. And so the introduction of the haplogroup R000a or R1a1 on the territory of modern Europe describe what happened about 1 years ago, which is consistent with the dating of the Trypillian culture (7000 years) and its part of the "Vinca culture". Moreover, they reached the Pyrenees, present-day Spain and Portugal, as well as the British Isles, which is reflected by the religious buildings of Stonehenge and similar ones on the islands, as well as in the numerous Russian-language toponymy of those places. After that, from the southwest, already from Africa, through Gibraltar or otherwise, representatives of the haplogroup R7500b1, marked by the "Culture of Broken Skulls", invaded this territory, and completely swept away all the haplogroups available at that time. On this occasion, there was already a similar article on VO: http://topwar.ru/1-poboische-bronzovogo-veka.html#comment-id-93146.
      As for the maximum age of the found haplogroups, a person with the age of haplogroup "A 00" as much as 160 years old was found in the USA, an African American, and not poor. In East Africa, a crayfish culture almost 000 years old is being studied, and a similar, but slightly older culture, up to 2 years old, is also being studied, but in Siberia. Cultures with a large age are simply not studied anymore, they have been abandoned.
      The division of the common haplogroup "R" into R1 and R2 occurred on the territory of the present Sayan mountains more than 20 years ago, so consider how many calendars of different ages could exist or have been found.
      1. MaksoMelan
        MaksoMelan 29 May 2016 10: 40
        +1
        Give information where did you get Lomonosov's links to these dates? The author of the book and the work of Lomonosov or the one who retold it.
    2. MaksoMelan
      MaksoMelan 29 May 2016 10: 38
      0
      Dregs are all! All these 7000 years ago is the reckoning of the Torah. From there it came to us with Orthodoxy! We did not have our chronology. At least I have not heard of this. Otherwise, at least some dates would have been preserved. Though cross them out. Well, as all the Jews were persecuted, they somehow kept their history. At least one written document that the reckoning went with us before the baptism of Russia was? Could squeeze but rather from the same Christians or Jews. And then in their languages ​​Hebrew or Greek. Or something like that. Yes same birch bark letters. What is there before Christianity from this good?
  12. Alisher
    Alisher 28 May 2016 15: 55
    +4
    The author did not indicate that there are different versions of the time and place of the formation of the haplogroup R1a. Incidentally, "One isolated subgroup, belonging to the haplogroup R, has been found among the indigenous population of northern Cameroon in west central Africa. This subgroup is believed to have arisen as a result of the prehistoric migration of the ancient Eurasian population back to Africa."

    Eastern European Theory
    Spencer Wells, Director of the Genographic Project at National Geographic, suggested that R1a originated in Europe from 5 to 000 years ago in Ukraine and southern Russia. Spencer Wells also states: “The ancestral homeland of the Aryans is outside of India. [M10] shows that over the past 000 years there has been a massive genetic influx from the steppes to India.

    South Asian Theory
    The theory of the origin of R1a in South Asia, presented by the geneticist Stephen Oppenheimer of the University of Oxford, suggests the origin of this haplogroup in South Asia about 36 thousand years ago, and from there it began to spread.

    West Asian Theory
    Qivisild (2003) holds the hypothesis of the origin of R1a in West Asia because of the belief that it was from there that the Indo-Aryan tribes invaded India. In addition, Semino (2000) speaks of the emergence of R1a in the Middle East, relying on the fact that along with the origin of the haplogroup Indo-European languages ​​arose here.
    https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Гаплогруппа_R1a_(Y-ДНК)

    And here is such a theory map of the emergence of P, Q, R, R1a, R1b, R2
    https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Гаплогруппа_P_(Y-ДНК)#
    1. venaya
      venaya 28 May 2016 19: 42
      +3
      Quote: Alisher
      The author did not indicate that there are different versions of the time and place of formation of the haplogroup

      You know, the master A. Klyosov is not obliged to follow the work of other insignificant armchair theorists, creators of all kinds of versions and theories. His task, as a true practitioner, as well as representatives of archaeological science, is to actually provide the source material for processing by the creators of countless theories. Otherwise, an unacceptable situation arises when armchair theorists put forward theories such as the origin of man from Africa, or a "Norman theory" there. As for Africa, the cat cried out the evidence base, the opposite is almost the same, but there are people who, in the heat of evidence, are ready to burn the opponent "in the stove", forgive - "at the stake" if he says that the earth is round, and even rotates - pure "holocaust". It is often said that "if the experiment does not agree with the theory, so much the worse for the experiment." Such savages from science, too, "even a dime a dozen."
      Here you also write "places of formation of haplogroup R1a", mentioning a tribe from Cameroon, only carriers of another haplogroup, that is - R1b1, were found there, and they subsequently moved north to Western Europe swept away representatives of almost all other haplogroups, starting precisely from the western extremities ( I even remember the "right of the first night" in the Baltics), that is, they moved from west to east, and in your diagram, their movement goes along the Balkans from east to west, and R1a1 does not even reach either the Pyrenees or Britain. By the way, later the haplogroup R1b1, after the discovery of America, demolished almost all autochonian carriers of haplogroups in North America from the earth, is also remarkable. As Marshak wrote: "Do not go children to Africa for a walk ...", there are studies on fossil bones, proving that about 8000 years ago, on the territory of the African continent, there was not evolution, but rather devolution - the transformation of man into a great ape, with protruding big toes to the side, for a more comfortable grip of branches when crawling through trees. At the same time, the ability to move in an upright position disappeared completely. So it would be better for theorists to pay more attention to factual material, and not to suck their fluid theories "out of hand", even a big one.
      1. King, just king
        King, just king 28 May 2016 23: 27
        0
        Well, Darwin’s theory didn’t always suit me. Well, like that, I, a blue whale, tuna, a hummingbird, a polar bear and an ant emerged from a piece of protoplasm. Yes, at least a hundred scientists will gather near me, they still will not prove to me that I (in the form of a representative of a reasonable person, um, I hope) by natural selection came from a gorilla. And why then the gorilla has been walking for millennia and the tail doesn’t fall off? Rather, the gorilla came from us, degraded.

        This old tale reminds why virgins are born, although all are (almost) deflorized. Where is the natural selection?
        1. MaksoMelan
          MaksoMelan 29 May 2016 10: 50
          +1
          Well then explain to everyone, how did a man appear? Dogs and Wolves also did not have a common ancestor? Or did they appear independently of each other? Apparently you are from the gorilla and happened if you think so narrowly.
    2. MaksoMelan
      MaksoMelan 29 May 2016 10: 47
      0
      I watched the American program where they did a genetic examination of where from. A relative's girl from Holland moved to America a long time ago with the first settlers. Native American indigenous. Found a common ancestor I do not understand how old it is even shy. But tokuda the ancestors of the Indian were told him. They came from the modern territory of China. Crossed through Alaska. And in South America at the very bottom there were tribes that were not related to the northern boleh. They generally sailed from Australia, and those almost from Africa.
  13. bashkir
    bashkir 28 May 2016 17: 04
    0
    As I understand it, almost everyone who made comments believed in the theory described in the article and this is ... CORRECT. I was once skeptical about this theory, "haplogroups - Aryans - Proto-Slavs - Indo-Europeans - blah-blah-blah" ... Until some time. I have not yet participated in the SUYUN project (this is not an advertisement). So, our tribe had a legend, which is a thousand years old, telling where the ancestors came from. And what is interesting, the DNA analysis carried out confirmed the main provisions of the legend. Where did the ancestors come from, what tribe they belonged to, the time of migration. Like this. For anyone interested, I can give you detailed information
    1. Alisher
      Alisher 28 May 2016 17: 54
      +1
      Well, tell me if you or your relatives did a genetic analysis, how it was and what turned out.
  14. King, just king
    King, just king 28 May 2016 17: 06
    +3
    Quote: venaya
    To be honest, quite a lot of calendars have already been discovered, for example, academician M. Lomonosov referred to a calendar with an age of 399 years, for which he suffered a lot. And so the introduction of the haplogroup R000a or R1a1 on the territory of modern Europe describe what happened about 1 years ago, which is consistent with the dating of the Trypillian culture (7000 years) and its part of the "Vinca culture". Moreover, they reached the Pyrenees, present-day Spain and Portugal, as well as the British Isles, which is reflected by the religious buildings of Stonehenge and similar ones on the islands, as well as in the numerous Russian-language toponymy of those places.



    Yes, neither archaeologists nor genetic biologists really know who came from and where. They found Lyuska, everyone rushed to date, overdated, it turned out to be wrong, come on with a new theory.
    Trypillians to Spain and Portugal? And where did such guys as the Basques come from, who are in no way related to the Spaniards, but there are parallels between the Basques and the Georgians? About Stonehenge - generally a dark story, who, when, why THIS navayal, know only the builders themselves, no more. Well, they found a couple of skeletons there, declared one "prince" or "leader" ... then what?

    There are all sorts of climb with the Atlantis (poor Plato), Gondwana, Lemuria, the tower tore off and popere version. Secret knowledge they say, the Atlantean lemurs personally transmitted. And the people believe, make noise.

    Archeology, in fact, the development of money, without evidence. Found a garbage dump - joys and dissertations for five years. I didn’t find a dump, you’ll be digging the ground for five years and describing the shards.

    After reading Mark Twain, I went to the expedition like insects and what was described and how, I realized that no one knows anything, and will never know how and what really happened there. Read Twain, you won’t regret it.
    1. bashkir
      bashkir 28 May 2016 17: 11
      +3
      Genetics just know, or rather they can answer the question of who came from. Only for this we need to collect the largest possible DNA database
  15. bashkir
    bashkir 28 May 2016 17: 13
    +1
    Apparently someone does not quite correctly understand the provisions of the theory put forward by genetics. They do not look at historical documents. They track the migration of a specific set of markers geographically and temporally.
  16. bashkir
    bashkir 28 May 2016 17: 18
    +4
    And interestingly, genetics do not build any historical hypotheses. On the contrary, they propose to unite with historians, archaeologists, and others like brotherhood to confirm or refute established historical stereotypes.
  17. King, just king
    King, just king 28 May 2016 17: 46
    +3
    Quote: Bashkir
    And interestingly, genetics do not build any historical hypotheses. On the contrary, they propose to unite with historians, archaeologists, and others like brotherhood to confirm or refute established historical stereotypes.


    Citizen "Alisher" in his post has already indicated several theories of the formation of this or that group. This quarrel will never end.

    And about the fact that they came to Hindustan from the north, I read as a kid yet - in the Technique of Youth for the 80th year, in my opinion, in articles about Hyperborea in the Russian North. 36 years have passed.
  18. Denis Skiff
    Denis Skiff 28 May 2016 19: 36
    +1
    Quote: King, just king
    It, of course, is a science. But somehow, it’s milder ... Kalyakaya such an article, it (the article) must be placed either in a specialized chemical-medical journal, or given at the end of a glossary, or written in plain Russian, i.e. chewing for amateurs. And dumping on a simple reader mutations with haplotypes is too much.

    I support. But then you have to shrink the article to chew. So what to do? It is necessary. Everyone needs to know and read. Interesting after all. But you don’t understand everything.
    Let's dear professors, work hard, please tell us more accessible. At the end of the article, for example, explain some scientific research.
    More people will read and understand what the article is about.
    1. Rivares
      Rivares 28 May 2016 20: 50
      +3
      Quote: Denis-Skiff
      Let's dear professors, work hard, please tell us more accessible. At the end of the article, for example, explain some scientific research

      I'm certainly not a professor, but the conclusions in the article are far-fetched. Studies on the Y chromosome are not enough for such conclusions. To complete the picture, we still need to look at mtDNA. The fact that the Slavs and Indians have a common ancestor according to the materials presented in the article is not enough. Based on the materials of the article, it can be said that the Aryans had offspring from the Hindus, and this offspring occupied the most significant varna (castes) for society. Moreover, these conclusions are comparable with the Hindu religious beliefs where it is said that knowledge (religion) was brought to them by the great "Rishis" (translated by the teacher) from the north. But they prefer not to shine on these teachers, and mention them vaguely)
  19. The comment was deleted.
    1. atalef
      atalef 28 May 2016 22: 38
      -1
      Quote: Litsvin
      So Zhirinovsky is "Russian" only for his mother, and for his father - "lawyer", that is. Jew. And what does he have to do with the Slavs and the Indian Ocean? It has nothing to do with it !!! Just like you, Jews, nothing to do with the land called Judea - this is the land of the Phiistians, which you treacherously captured after "they (the Egyptians) drove us out of Egypt" (words from V. Vysotsky's song "Bear Shifman ").

      another victim of EG laughing
      Calm down, your dad is the same Jew.
  20. Grim Reaper
    Grim Reaper 29 May 2016 02: 17
    +1
    Khe. But what about the differentiation in the color of the pants? ☺
  21. MaksoMelan
    MaksoMelan 29 May 2016 10: 53
    +1
    In short, we ask all the tests for genes and lay out what happened and who we tell about our population. So it will be more reliable.
  22. Kaiten
    Kaiten 29 May 2016 11: 34
    0
    It is a laudable desire to find one’s ancestors. One thing is not clear why it always translates into srach with the Jews. Hello gentlemen. You are struggling with the shadow, in the vast majority we no longer live with you. Look for an example at the Jews participating in this site, among them there is not a single resident of Russia. I understand that someone is needed on whom to dump pits on the roads, the smell of urine in the porches or the drunkenness of the neighbor's uncle Vasya. But why are you so sausage? why in 100% of cases any historical / archaeological / genetic


    subjects rests on the Jewish question? do not you yourself see that by this, you are a big and strong people, expose your weakness and your complexes. I understand that now stories about Jewish participation in the revolution, Stalinist terror and collectivization and the development of virgin lands will climb. As always, it will end with quotations from the Talmud about the best of the goyim.
    1. MaksoMelan
      MaksoMelan 29 May 2016 11: 45
      +4
      There is nothing critical for me here, but the Jews in their Old Testament make a hint that they are like the most draining here! And all the rest are also Jews, but younger. Judging by them, we are all Jews judging by us high Russians. Etc. Well, you yourself described the jambs in the torus so that more is known about you. I’ve heard about the schools of Isoail. So politely and culturally, aesti began there only after the arrival of migrants from the USSR and the Russian Federation. And before that, the horror of what was happening. And in terms of cleanliness, too.
      1. Kaiten
        Kaiten 29 May 2016 12: 12
        +1
        Quote: MaksoMelan
        There is nothing critical for me here, but the Jews in their Old Testament make a hint that they are like the most draining here!

        And what are the criteria for the antiquity of the people? Why are some nations called ancient and others young?
        1. MaksoMelan
          MaksoMelan 29 May 2016 14: 31
          +2
          Well, I would call preservation of heritage and history one of the criteria. Our modern Istria is about 1000 years old. Before that, there were basically all sorts of Vyatichi Krivichi and a maximum of Slovenes (those who speak the dialect or kindred with us). Regarding Orthodoxy, this is rather a religious meaning that has nothing to do with the term Slavs. For example, if you translate the Jews into Russian, you will also get Orthodox. Everyone considers his faith to be right. The same faithful Muslims. The Jews have a history preserved no matter what and confirmed archaeologically. You practically do not take what happened to us before the baptism! And I have big doubts that it was a kind of Aryan Vedas to which some are apologizing here. Regarding some of the meanings of words, it is better to listen to works on linguistics as words move from language to language and how the meaning of some words changes beyond recognition. The word Loch in Russia has at least 2 meanings, in Byzantium, Loch is an ordinary warrior, like, and in our understanding, the suckers are not often blamed for the more so of those times. One of the most ancient in this understanding of the peoples and are Indians. Although their annals are epics or what they are called, it is quite possible that some of them may not be annals but predictions. This does not preclude the possibility of the existence of these events in the past or similar. People lose their identity if they forget the history of education. Races can be said everyone is considered Russian abroad, we are a separate people for all of them. They cannot distinguish Russian from Bulgarin, Ukrainian, Tatar. Oleg Tractors. Someone told me that he is Russian? He is a Tatar. Perhaps with Russian roots or relatives on a line. And the same Yusupovs? Although we have a Slavic backbone, but thanks to this, we survived because they absorbed and assimilated the peoples. They enriched the language and history. What you need to continue to continue. And each time we have a historical choice. By cleansing history, we lose our roots and identity. But you can’t invent it. Knowing the history, we can understand what challenges are in front of us. If before, we fought with someone how to prevent this, if before we were deceived, then how to prevent this. If something was good then how to increase it.
          1. Kaiten
            Kaiten 29 May 2016 15: 37
            0
            Thanks an interesting answer. That is, the antiquity of the people is determined by writing, religious and cultural components and correlation with archeology?
    2. Chisayna
      Chisayna 29 May 2016 23: 42
      0
      In the absolute majority. Well, if that were so. And then our television says the opposite. And what ... the elderly sciatica Kanevsky, came back? He earns money, and what no other Russian actor can cope with instead? During, on TV, just the dominance of "these" one full house causes a gag reflex. Galkin, urgant, posner and many others.
  23. Kaiten
    Kaiten 29 May 2016 13: 20
    0
    Sorry, Mr. opponent disappeared. I would even say easier, merged ....
  24. Mikhail Matyugin
    Mikhail Matyugin 29 May 2016 13: 40
    +1
    Nevertheless, leaving aside a heated discussion about who is ancient, and the arguments of some that the best superarias and the arguments of others are the best super-Semites, let's think - but why is the article bad?

    Well, really, what is the author wrong in the strongest way?
    1. MaksoMelan
      MaksoMelan 29 May 2016 14: 32
      0
      There above the people said where to see the video criticizing this author.
    2. Kaiten
      Kaiten 29 May 2016 15: 49
      0
      Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
      Well, really, what is the author wrong in the strongest way?

      The definition of what people are. Genetic markers are only evidence of migrations of human groups. Since peoples have the tendency to arise and disappear, thanks to the processes of assimilation and mixing with other peoples. For example, many note the external similarity of the Scythians (their images were preserved on various gold things found in the mounds) and Russian. Does this mean that the Scythians were Russian? No, although it is genetically very likely that the Scythians participated in the formation of the Russian ethnos. However, it is clear that the Scythians and Russians are completely different peoples with their own culture, mentality, religion, etc.
  25. Denis Skiff
    Denis Skiff 29 May 2016 21: 16
    +1
    We all eventually gathered here from one of our pro father. And who is ancient, a stone flying every 10 000 of thousands of years past our common home or a person on planet Earth, it does not matter.
    We are all brothers, and some are even sisters.
    Come on, do not quarrel, I love you.
  26. Mikhail Matyugin
    Mikhail Matyugin 30 May 2016 00: 26
    +5
    Quote: Kaiten
    For example, many note the external similarity of the Scythians (their images were preserved on various gold things found in the mounds) and Russian. Does this mean that the Scythians were Russian? No, although it is genetically very likely that the Scythians participated in the formation of the Russian ethnos.

    "Scythian-Pahari" - definitely. Although unofficially, there seems to be a certain ban on deciphering the Scythian genome - despite the fact that a certain number of skeletons have long been found where biological material of proper quality could have been.

    Quote: Kaiten
    However, it is clear that the Scythians and Russians are completely different peoples with their own culture, mentality, religion, etc.
    Well, we will pose the question in a different plane, using your scheme - and are modern Jews (removing the problem of the Samaritans and Edomites) the same people as the ancient Jews of the period of Moses and the Exodus? It turns out what is different? because a different culture, a different mentality, a different religion? Or is it the same?

    Or take the same Egyptian Copts - and the people of Ancient Egypt of the Pharaohs? the same people or not?
    1. Kaiten
      Kaiten 30 May 2016 07: 13
      +1
      Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
      - and modern Jews (removing the problem of the Samaritans and Edomites) - is it one and the same people as the ancient Jews of the period of Moses and the Exodus? It turns out what is different? because a different culture, a different mentality, a different religion? Or is it the same?


      Why do you think that the Jews have a different religion now? It is clear that for 3500 years certain rituals have changed, but the basic principle of Judaism "Hear Israel-Gd God Our Gd is One" has not changed. Orthodoxy in its history also went through a number of changes, for example, Nikon's reform, but from this it did not cease to be Orthodoxy. And so over 3500 years, the mentality and culture of the Jews have changed dramatically. The genetic makeup of modern Jews has undoubtedly changed in comparison with the genes of Jews who left Egypt. However, Judaism considers Jewry primarily as a spiritual connection of all people professing Judaism, it is for this reason that ethnicity in it is secondary and consists only in the connection of the Jewish mother with her children. And that is why modern Jews have a large number of ethnic groups: Ashkenazim, Sephardim, Mizrahim, Subbotniks (ethnic Russians) and more than a dozen ethnic groups. They are all the people of Israel.
      1. Reptiloid
        Reptiloid 30 May 2016 08: 41
        0
        I do not agree with the article, taking into account past articles and discussions to them, although I can not objectively qualify.
        I could not write yesterday for technical reasons.
        Where did the term "subbotniks" come from - ethnic Russians? Don't the rest of the Jews --- celebrate Shabbat? I have been interested in the Jewish topic for a long time, I have read a number of books, I read that during Shabbat you cannot use your mobile phone, or drive a car, or ride an elevator.
        You write that most Jews live in Israel. But I have many acquaintances among the Jews --- mostly doctors and teachers. And my parents also had Jewish teachers. I remember the stories about my mother’s teacher sopromat most. Last name --- Rappoport. I remember because he was during the War pilot, escaped from a burning plane, badly burned.
        1. Kaiten
          Kaiten 30 May 2016 15: 29
          0
          Quote: Reptiloid
          Where did the term "subbotniks" come from - ethnic Russians? Don't the rest of the Jews --- celebrate Shabbat?

          The remaining Jews celebrate Shabbat, but are not ethnic Russians, like subbotniks. If you mean European Jews living in Russia, Ukraine and Belarus, then by ethnicity they are Ashkenazi.
        2. Kaiten
          Kaiten 30 May 2016 16: 17
          +2
          Quote: Reptiloid
          You write that most Jews live in Israel.

          So this statistic says so. About 7 million Jews out of 8 million inhabitants live in Israel, and about 50-100 thousand in Russia. The exact numbers can be easily found on the stat sites. Bureau of Israel and Russia.
          Quote: Reptiloid

          But I have many friends among the Jews --- mostly doctors and teachers, and my parents also had Jewish teachers.

          In Great Russia itself, Jews almost did not live and mostly got there after the establishment of owls. power and the abolition of the Pale of Settlement. Mostly Ukrainian and Belarusian townships were left by people with ambitions who wanted to get an education and live in a big city .. The "common people" who remained in their townships had almost no contact with the Russian population, since historically Ukrainians, Jews, Poles and Belarusians lived there. And after the war, most of these settlements were gone, and we know what happened to the people who lived there. So it turned out to be skewed: in the eyes of the Russians, the Jews turned into a national-intellectual stratum. In my opinion, this is not from the "great Jewish mind", but simply because during the war Jews survived who lived in large Russian cities or who moved there after it the end of the evacuation.

          Quote: Reptiloid

          Most of all I remember the stories about my mother’s teacher sopromat. Last name --- Rappoport. I remember because during the war he was a pilot, escaped from a burning plane, badly burned.
          The surname Rappoport is an excellent example of the Ashkenazi, whose ancestors lived in Spain, but after the proclamation of the edict on the eviction of Jews from Spain, they did not leave together with other Sephardi, but joined the European Ashkenazi community. In translation, the surname Rappoport means "a doctor from the city of Porto" - there is still such a city in modern Portugal.
          1. Mikhail Matyugin
            Mikhail Matyugin 30 May 2016 17: 02
            +2
            Quote: Kaiten
            About 7 million Jews out of 8 million inhabitants live in Israel, and about 50-100 thousand in Russia

            The question arises, how to count, and whom to count, and who counts. There are many mixed Jews and people with Jewish blood, even with the right to repatriation, in Russia, but not all of them profess Judaism or even consider themselves Jews.
            1. Kaiten
              Kaiten 30 May 2016 18: 28
              0
              Quote: Mikhail Matyugin

              The question arises, how to count, and whom to count, and who counts.
              There are a lot of mixed Jews and people with Jewish blood, even with the right to repatriation, in Russia, but not all of them profess Judaism or even consider themselves Jews.

              Consider the statistical offices of Israel and Russia. In Israel, persons of non-Jews in halach are now considered separately. As they say in Russia, I do not know. I guess that based on a census.
          2. Reptiloid
            Reptiloid 30 May 2016 18: 51
            0
            Thanks for the explanation, for deciphering the surname Rappoport. The Hebrew term RAFA --- medicine is remembered. I will try to decipher other surnames.
            I read that there are Jewish surnames that date back to the time of the Tabernacle! I have the impression that ancient Jewish surnames are found less and less. Is this so, or am I mistaken? Such an ancient birth!
            1. Kaiten
              Kaiten 30 May 2016 20: 05
              +1
              Quote: Reptiloid

              Thanks for the explanation, for deciphering the surname Rappoport. The Hebrew term RAFA --- medicine is remembered. I will try to decipher other surnames.

              The wiki has a detailed article on Jewish surnames, in principle, everything is not very complicated. Almost all modern Jewish surnames are divided into the following groups:
              - religious (koen, kogan, kaganovich, levi, levin, levitan, etc.)
              - professional - shoemakers, weavers, tailors. These surnames may have Slavic or German roots.
              - geographical - such as Berliner, Warsaw, Pevzner, Litvinov, the same Rappoport.
              - The name of the surrounding objects - such as Rosenfeld, Heifitz, etc.
              - A small group of surnames having some special origin.
              Quote: Reptiloid

              I read that there are Jewish surnames that date back to the time of the Tabernacle!

              In the Israel Museum there are shards (ostracons) of the 8-9th century BC. era with the names of the Jews who lived then. The Jews then did not have surnames, rather there was a patronymic, denoting from which house this or that person. Almost all of them had at the end the ending "yahu" - like Natanyahu (just do not think that the surname Natanyahu has been living since the 8th century BC - it is a remake, the name of Natanyahu's father was Meleikovsky). Some Jewish surnames have been known since the Middle Ages, but most of the surnames were obtained by Jews during the 18-19 centuries in the Russian and Austro-Hungarian empires.

              Quote: Reptiloid

              I have the impression that ancient Jewish surnames are found less and less. Is this so, or am I mistaken? Such an ancient birth!

              I think just the Jews around you are becoming less and less.
              1. Mikhail Matyugin
                Mikhail Matyugin 30 May 2016 23: 02
                0
                Quote: Kaiten
                The wiki has a detailed article on Jewish surnames, in principle, everything is not very complicated.

                There are still rare Karaite surnames of Turkic or Khazar-Bulgarian origin.
                1. Reptiloid
                  Reptiloid 31 May 2016 07: 18
                  +1
                  He recalled the names of people about whom I TODAY know that they are Jews from the maternal side. It turns out that they are mainly Russian or Ukrainian surnames.
                  But if you recall the real Jewish surnames, which were EARLIER on technical textbooks, they cannot be heard now.
                  1. Kaiten
                    Kaiten 31 May 2016 09: 05
                    0
                    Quote: Reptiloid
                    But if you recall the real Jewish surnames, which were EARLIER on technical textbooks, they cannot be heard now.

                    There are less and less Jews in Russia, therefore, in principle, there is no special place for the Jewish-Russian srach, which was mainly caused by competition in the intellectual environment.
        3. Mikhail Matyugin
          Mikhail Matyugin 30 May 2016 16: 59
          0
          Quote: Reptiloid
          I read that during Shabbat one should not use a mobile phone, or drive a car, or ride in an elevator.

          You cannot perform any work or activity similar to it. There are a number of specific prohibitions such as the prohibition to kindle any fire.
          1. Reptiloid
            Reptiloid 30 May 2016 18: 29
            0
            It is the consequences of the ban on kindling fire that are prohibited: to turn on a light bulb, microwave, elevator, ignition key in a car, etc.
  27. Mikhail Matyugin
    Mikhail Matyugin 30 May 2016 11: 19
    +2
    Quote: Kaiten
    that the Jews now have a different religion?

    In my opinion, "Shema Yisrael" is almost the only thing left from the time of the prophet Moshe. It is believed that the purest version of Judaism was preserved by the "Karaites", whom some Jews do not consider to be Jews at all. And according to the Karaites, just modern Judaism is a completely different religion, which has preserved very little of the religion of the era of Moses (in 2000 years after the destruction of the Temple, how many religious reforms have occurred?).

    Quote: Kaiten
    The genetic composition of modern Jews has certainly changed in comparison with the genes of Jews who left Egypt.

    That's right, one of the tribes there was definitely negroid. But there are Negroid ethnic groups that profess Judaism (or something similar to it), and some of them even migrated to Israel?

    Quote: Kaiten
    However, Judaism considers Jewry, first of all, as a spiritual connection of all people professing Judaism, that is why ethnicity in it is secondary and consists only in the connection of a Jewish mother with her children.
    So spiritual connection or ethnic - that’s the question. Or both? And here's what is interesting, but if nevertheless the father is Jewish or grandfather - then the person definitely has the Jewish genotype in one form or another - but from the halachic point of view, he is not Jewish, even if he maintains a living connection with Judaism?


    And analyzing the situation with the Scythians and their likely descendants - the Russians (more correctly, all the Eastern Slavs - both Ukrainians and Belarusians).
    From a religious point of view - an absolute majority professes a completely different religion (although if you take the meager groups of modern pagans, then there is something in common).

    The mentality is different. Modern Eastern Slavs (excluding cases of maniacal mania) do not remove scalps from killed enemies, and do not cut their jaws, and do not make quivers from the skin of a killed enemy's hands. Although such "artistic delights" were practiced in Diko Pole (as the western end of the Great Steppe was called) for a long time, right up to the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries.

    But the ethnic type is very similar. Moreover, the Eastern Slavs and Scythians have a similar tendency to live in large and tightly controlled state associations. Well, "what Russian doesn't like driving fast?"
    1. Kaiten
      Kaiten 30 May 2016 15: 15
      0
      Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
      In my opinion, "Shema Yisrael" is almost the only thing left from the time of the prophet Moshe.

      This is nothing more than your personal opinion. I do not think that you are an expert in the field of Alahi and Jewish law, otherwise I would soon hear about you.
      Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
      It is believed that the purest version of Judaism was preserved by the "Karaites", whom some Jews do not consider to be Jews at all. And according to the Karaites, just modern Judaism is a completely different religion, which has preserved very little of the religion of the era of Moses (in 2000 years after the destruction of the Temple, how many religious reforms have occurred?).

      Today, there are three religions calling themselves Judaism: rabbinical, Karaite and Samaritan. Naturally, representatives of each religion consider their option to be the cleanest, faultless and correct. On the other hand, Judaism of each branch does not strive for the mass conversion of adherents of another religion, on the contrary, the transition to Judaism (Giyur) is complicated and long, therefore all three variants harmoniously exist in Israel. Disputes, if any, are conducted only at the level of theology. Although in reality in modern times such disputes are not heard. Everything has long been clarified. With the Samaritans in ancient times, and with the Karaites in the Middle Ages. Today, Jews, Karaites, and Samaritans are three different nations. The conversion of a Karaite or Samaritan to rabbinical Judaism is associated with a giyur as for any other non-Jew.

      Quote: Mikhail Matyugin

      That's right, one of the tribes there was definitely negroid.

      Never heard of this. The primary source in this case is the Old Testament (TANAKH), ​​provide a link to the book, chapter and line number where this is mentioned.

      Quote: Mikhail Matyugin

      But there are Negroid ethnic groups that profess Judaism (or something similar to it), and some of them even migrated to Israel?

      Yes, there are dark-skinned ethnic groups from Ethiopia who profess Judaism. Moreover, their Judaism remained at the level of destruction of the First Temple (they did not know about the existence of the Second Temple). There is nothing special about them. Ordinary Israelis, only dark-skinned. By the way, all the distinguishing features of African blacks are somehow tall, blue-black skin, thick pouting lips, they do not appear, since the Ethiopians are of the mixed type, and not purely Negro. Outwardly, they are often quite slender, their faces and figures resemble European ones, only with dark skin. You get used to it very quickly, especially since the mentality of the majority is already Israeli. If you think a person has dark skin, you in Russia are not confused by the Asian faces of the Yakuts or Kalmyks.
      1. Mikhail Matyugin
        Mikhail Matyugin 30 May 2016 17: 16
        0
        Quote: Kaiten
        The conversion of a Karaite or Samaritan to rabbinical Judaism is associated with a giyur as for any other non-Jew.

        This is strange! How is it that Judaism of the era of the prophet Moses and modern is one and the same religion, if one part of the people that preserved Judaism of the Second Temple period is accepted into the prevailing religious tradition, which the other part of the people adheres to, through the giyur?!? those. how are non-jews at all?

        About dark-skinned peoples professing varieties of Judaism is a separate big topic.

        Simply the prophet Moses brought out of Egypt such people who are united in the term "erev rav" - "great gathering", i.e. descendants of slaves of a different origin who were incorporated into one of the tribes.

        Undoubtedly, this term is very capacious and has different interpretations, but one of the original meanings and the way it is mentioned in the Tanakh is precisely the "great rabble" (and who were primarily slaves in Ancient Egypt? Black Nubian Kushites! - at the same time, the possible presence of others is not denied - the same Libyans or Hittites).
        1. Kaiten
          Kaiten 30 May 2016 19: 04
          +1
          Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
          This is strange! How is it that Judaism of the era of the prophet Moses and modern is one and the same religion, if one part of the people that preserved Judaism of the Second Temple period is accepted into the prevailing religious tradition, which the other part of the people adheres to, through the giyur?!? those. how are non-jews at all?

          different trends in one and the same religion led to the divergence of the people into two groups, each of which considers itself the successor of the "ancestor religion". The difference in religious attitudes between Prushim and Tzduk ultimately led to isolation from each other. Something similar happened with Christianity. At first, Jewish religious leaders issued a ban on joint prayer with Jewish Christians, and then a similar decree was issued by Christian elders. Karaites are not considered Jews and do not consider themselves Jews. This is exactly the question of the fact that the concept of people is not static, peoples are formed and disappear.
          1. Mikhail Matyugin
            Mikhail Matyugin 30 May 2016 22: 29
            +1
            Quote: Kaiten
            The religious difference between Pruszim and Tsdukiy ultimately led to separation from each other.

            Those. differences in worldview resulted in differences in life and religion, and then came to the division of the people. Here, by the way, you can recall the situation with Russian Old Believers of various kinds. But at the same time, the people as such did not remain the same? or did he remain, if we ignore the opinions of the sages of the Talmud, which are important for many Jews, but which remain only opinions?

            Quote: Kaiten
            Karaites are not considered Jews and do not consider themselves Jews.
            Well, this is how to say-do not consider themselves Jews ?! all groups of modern Jews have certain historical paths, and one way or another they had mixing with the surrounding peoples, although they no doubt preserved the Jewish genetic core, whose roots can clearly be traced back to the 2 level of the millennium BC.

            There is an opinion that the religion of the Karaites is much more traditional and close to Judaism of the Second Temple period than modern Judaism, which went through many transformations and innovations.

            The presence of Slavic and Turkic ethnic components among the Karaites is quite probable, but it is also probable among other branches of Jewry.
      2. Reptiloid
        Reptiloid 30 May 2016 18: 37
        0
        In recent articles on an African theme here, on the Military Archive, there are photographs of the inhabitants of Ethiopia and Eritrea. They are not Negroes! They are Caucasoid melanchroids!
        1. Kaiten
          Kaiten 31 May 2016 09: 07
          0
          Quote: Reptiloid
          Here, by the way, you can recall the situation with Russian Old Believers of various kinds.

          Yes, it seems that only the Old Believers and the "Nikonists" self-identify as part of the single Russian people.
          1. Reptiloid
            Reptiloid 31 May 2016 11: 00
            +1
            Adnaaaako! And when did I write this? And was it I? After all, I live by the principle: everyone writes how he breathes ... Now I breathe soooo, tomorrow --- differently ...
            Although there are many memorable comments of other people who I remember even for months.
            I think that after all, the number of Jews in the Russian Federation is not decreasing, the names change QUALITATIVELY. Those names that were heard by previous generations, for example, Katz, Brook, Epstein, Bibergan, Bloomgren, Rakhuba — can no longer be heard. Now Jews are ordinary Russian surnames.
            1. Kaiten
              Kaiten 31 May 2016 12: 24
              0
              Quote: Reptiloid
              .Now the Jews have the usual Russian surnames.

              It does not matter whether the Jews left or Russified i.e. assimilated and now they identify themselves as Russians, the fact remains that due to these two processes the number of Jews in Russia is decreasing.
    2. Kaiten
      Kaiten 30 May 2016 15: 16
      +4
      Quote: Mikhail Matyugin

      So spiritual connection or ethnic - that’s the question. Or both?

      both that and that.
      Moreover, in my opinion, the spiritual connection prevails. For example, during the excavation of the Qumran scrolls, people's clothes were found, and a body louse was found in people's clothes. Some hotheads said: "great, let's sequence DNA from human blood that the louse drank and we will know who is a real Jew and who is not." This research was immediately banned because there was a very clear connection with such eugenistic research among the Nazis. And there was no ultimate meaning in such studies, since I once again emphasize the importance of the spiritual closeness of people united within the framework of the people of Israel. This is the physical difference with the position of the German Nazis, who united in the German nation only those people who have certain genetic traits (in fact, the traits were phenotypic, DNA was discovered only in 1953).

      Quote: Mikhail Matyugin

      And here’s what’s interesting, but if the father is Jewish or grandfather, then a person definitely has a Jewish genotype in one form or another — but from a halachic point of view, he’s not a Jew,

      Quite right. From the point of view of Judaism, this person is a non-Jew with Jewish roots, in Hebrew they say "zera israel" seed of Israel. Typical representatives for example Posner or Urgant. They both have non-Jewish mothers. For some reason in Russia they are considered Jews.


      Quote: Mikhail Matyugin

      even if he maintains a living connection with Judaism?

      In order to maintain a lively connection with Judaism, such people need to go through the giyur.

      Quote: Mikhail Matyugin

      And analyzing the situation with the Scythians and their likely descendants - the Russians (more correctly, all the Eastern Slavs - both Ukrainians and Belarusians).
      From a religious point of view - an absolute majority professes a completely different religion (although if you take the meager groups of modern pagans, then there is something in common).

      The mentality is different. Modern Eastern Slavs (excluding cases of maniacal mania) do not remove scalps from killed enemies, and do not cut their jaws, and do not make quivers from the skin of a killed enemy's hands. Although such "artistic delights" were practiced in Diko Pole (as the western end of the Great Steppe was called) for a long time, right up to the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries.
      But the ethnic type is very similar. Moreover, the Eastern Slavs and Scythians have a similar tendency to live in large and tightly controlled state associations. Well, "what Russian doesn't like driving fast?"


      The ethnic type is similar, but the peoples are different - this once again confirms my thesis that the area of ​​distribution of certain genetic markers is not a reliable determinant for the study of the antiquity of a particular nation. Since the concept of people is a spiritual concept. There were Scythians - they became Russians, there were Romans - they became Italians, there were Aztecs - they became Mexicans. Genes in this territory may not have disappeared, and the people are already different.
      1. Mikhail Matyugin
        Mikhail Matyugin 30 May 2016 17: 29
        +3
        Quote: Kaiten
        For example, during the excavation of the Qumran scrolls, people's clothes were found, and a body louse was found in people's clothes. Some hotheads said: "great, let's sequence DNA from human blood that the louse drank and we will know who is a real Jew and who is not." These studies were immediately banned.

        Hmm, I didn’t. It was the scrolls that were wrapped in these clothes, and then placed in jugs or found directly in the soil?

        It turns out that the situation is identical with the genetic material of the Scythians - an unofficial ban on the study of the genotype so that there is no reason for any people to declare that they are the direct descendants of the Scythians (and even suddenly not some kind of "ploughmen", but "royal" ones? smile ).

        Quote: Kaiten
        And there was no final sense in such studies, since I emphasize once again the important spiritual closeness of people united within the framework of the people of Israel.
        It is good when there are even several religious traditions that identify with the religion that was then. But what to do with the Scythians to their probable (or, conversely, incredible) descendants? when there is no common religion?

        Quote: Kaiten
        Since the concept of people is a spiritual concept. There were Scythians - they became Russians, there were Romans - they became Italians, there were Aztecs - they became Mexicans. Genes in this territory may not have disappeared, and the people are already different.

        Correctly say apparently about the combination of both spiritual and genetic components. Since modern Ukrainians or Russians are not only descendants of the Scythians, but also the descendants of many other ancient peoples, including Finno-Ugric and Turkic tribes. With a qualitatively different religion and probably a different mentality.

        Although the phrase "Russia is merry is piti, we cannot be without that" - was pronounced with equal significance by the ancient Scythians, and the Russians of the era of Prince Vladimir, and modern Russians. laughing
        1. Kaiten
          Kaiten 30 May 2016 19: 32
          0
          Quote: Mikhail Matyugin

          Hmm, I didn’t. It was the scrolls that were wrapped in these clothes, and then placed in jugs or found directly in the soil?

          The scrolls were in jugs (therefore, preserved), but in addition to the jugs, a certain number of household items from the period of the second Temple (shoes, clothes, metal objects) were found. All of them are exhibited in the Museum of the Book next to the scrolls, in the territory of the Israel Museum in Jerusalem.
          Quote: Mikhail Matyugin

          It turns out that the situation is identical with the genetic material of the Scythians - an unofficial ban on the study of the genotype so that there is no reason for any people to declare that they are the direct descendants of the Scythians (and even suddenly not some kind of "ploughmen", but "royal" ones? smile ).

          Yes, this is a dangerous thing and it is better not to conduct such research. Enough with us (in the sense of normal people) research "dissolution" period of the 3rd Reich.
        2. Kaiten
          Kaiten 30 May 2016 19: 33
          +2
          Quote: Mikhail Matyugin

          It is good when there are even several religious traditions that identify with the religion that was then. But what to do with the Scythians to their probable (or, conversely, incredible) descendants? when there is no common religion?

          You yourself answer your question:
          Quote: Mikhail Matyugin

          Correctly say apparently about the combination of both spiritual and genetic components.

          Only to the ethnic and religious "coordinates" that characterize the self-identification of the people, I would also add a political coordinate. Thus, you can correctly describe all existing modern peoples. For example, the Germans differ in religion (there are Catholics and Protestants), however, they self-identify each other as one people based on their ethnic community. The French of France and the French of Canada, despite their common ethnic origin, self-identify as different peoples based on the difference in religion and different political coordinates (different countries of residence). The people of the United States, despite their different ethnic origins (white, Latinos, colored and black), different religions feel like one people because they live in one country (a common political coordinate). The USA is generally an interesting example of popular formation in modern times. At the moment when the former British subjects wrote in their constitution: "We are the people" - they began to self-identify as a new people, despite the fact that all were British by origin. The Soviet people are also an example of political self-identification. Unfortunately, with the collapse of the USSR, this community ceased to exist. Jews are an example of religious self-identification, despite their different ethnic origins. Bulgarians are an example of self-identification according to the same religious and political (single Bulgarian kingdom) coordinates, despite their different ethnic origins (Slavs and Bulgars from the Volga).

          Quote: Mikhail Matyugin

          Since modern Ukrainians or Russians are not only descendants of the Scythians, but also the descendants of many other ancient peoples, including Finno-Ugric and Turkic tribes. With a qualitatively different religion and probably a different mentality.

          It all depends on the identity of Russians and Ukrainians.

          Quote: Mikhail Matyugin

          Although the phrase "Russia is merry is piti, we cannot be without that" - was pronounced with equal significance by the ancient Scythians, and the Russians of the era of Prince Vladimir, and modern Russians. laughing

          Well, yes, and "mrya" and "all" - i.e. non-Slavic elements including.
          1. Mikhail Matyugin
            Mikhail Matyugin 30 May 2016 22: 34
            +2
            Quote: Kaiten
            Only to the ethnic and religious "coordinates" that characterize the self-identification of the people, I would also add a political coordinate.
            According to your text, this is no longer a "political" but a "political-state" coordinate. The center of which is the state - the ethnic center of the people.

            Quote: Kaiten
            The people of the United States, despite different ethnic backgrounds (white, latinos, color and black), different religions feel like one people because they live in the same country

            Well, according to my data, only white Americans define themselves like that. Mexicanos consider themselves Mexicans, albeit with an American passport, but Mexicans. The situation with blacks is generally complicated - they seemingly seemingly yes, sort of like Americans, but they don’t really consider themselves Americans, but clearly distinguish them by race. At least that's how people in the United States see it.
            1. Kaiten
              Kaiten 31 May 2016 09: 11
              +1
              Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
              According to your text, this is no longer a "political", but a "political-state" coordinate

              Could be so.
              Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
              The center of which is the state - the ethnic center of the people.

              The state is not necessarily an ethnic unifier; it unites people by virtue of its citizenship. All citizens of this state identify themselves as a whole, regardless of ethnic or religious affiliation. For example, Switzerland.
            2. Kaiten
              Kaiten 31 May 2016 09: 25
              +2
              Quote: Mikhail Matyugin

              Well, according to my data, only white Americans define themselves like that. Mexicanos consider themselves Mexicans, albeit with an American passport, but Mexicans.

              Mexicans (and other Latinos) serve in the army, police and other state. posts. If they for the most part would not recognize the American state, they would not serve in the state. structures and generally would renounce American citizenship following the example of some Israeli religious ultra-orthodox (read about the Neturei Karto movement). I personally spoke with an American general by the name of Rodriguez - definitely Latin by origin.
              Quote: Mikhail Matyugin

              The situation with blacks is generally complicated - they seemingly seemingly yes, sort of like Americans, but they don’t really consider themselves Americans, but clearly distinguish them by race. At least that's how people in the United States see it.

              In the United States, there is always friction between different ethnic and racial sectors of society, but this does not mean that members of these public sectors identify themselves outside the United States. By the way, at the beginning of the 20th century, those blacks who self-identified themselves outside the United States left it and formed the country of Liberia in Africa.
  28. DOMINO
    DOMINO 30 May 2016 13: 31
    +1
    Interestingly, the Indian caste system itself was created about the same 3500 years ago.

    There really is something to be "proud of" ... According to the author, it turns out that these Aryans, who created a system of castes, doomed people to total inequality for thousands of years! Until now, this caste fascism is one of the main reasons for the brake on the development of India. I'm not even talking about out-of-caste "outcast" Dalits, etc., who live as animals in garbage dumps along the roads, outside of society, despised by everyone. Nobody even counts them, tk. these are not people (population), although, according to conservative estimates, they are over 200 million ... This is about them in the Internet, pictures where the cleaners dive headlong into the sewers, lease \ specially mutilate children to earn money, etc. In general, if you look from these positions, then these our protoaries, together with culture and language, brought to the local about the same as the conquistadors with the Anglo-Saxons - the Indians ...
    1. Basil50
      Basil50 30 May 2016 17: 42
      +2
      Craft and taught in families and clans, the fact that it degenerated into a * caste * entirely the merit of the Indians. In Europe, caste society also exists, only unofficially, caste is most clearly manifested in England.
      1. Reptiloid
        Reptiloid 31 May 2016 02: 52
        0
        You can recall about Ancient Egypt from a similar perspective.
  29. Mikhail Matyugin
    Mikhail Matyugin 30 May 2016 17: 36
    +4
    Quote: DOMINO
    According to the author, it turns out that these arias, who created the caste system, doomed people to total inequality for thousands of years!

    Well, firstly, the Arians who came to India did not create a caste system, but a varn system - this is completely different, by the way. The caste system arose only in Antiquity.

    Secondly, the caste system in India has officially been canceled 50 years ago and from a legal point of view, no one is blocking anyone. Another thing is that a lot depends on the mentality of the people, of which there are a lot of people in India.
  30. Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 30 May 2016 20: 07
    +1
    A traveler, historian, scientist ---- Miloslav Stingl, writes that in the XVIII and even XIX century in the territory inhabited by the Kechva people in Peru, Bolivia, political leaders appeared, declaring themselves descendants of the Great Incas and listing their ancestors! Their clans ascended to the ancient rulers. Ethiopians consider their Solomon dynasty to be the most ancient of the ruling dynasties of the world that survived to the XNUMXth century! Hindu Rajas, raise their kind, some to the Solar, some to the Lunar dynasty (read --- to the Gods of the Sun and the Moon!). Or Biblical patriarchs. There was an oral tradition of preserving knowledge.

    Words of the poet:

    "They sound like music, like a verse,
    Surnames are simple.
    Take a look --- and you will see in them
    History of Russia! "

    Here is the ancient English surname Smith --- "blacksmith". Or the Chinese Li --- the same thing. The most numerous surnames of these peoples! And how many Kuznetsovs are in Russia! An ancient profession that aroused respect and fear!

    It is a pity that now some people know less about their ancestors than in past times.
  31. MaksoMelan
    MaksoMelan 31 May 2016 11: 38
    +2
    How the people calculates the Jews I do not understand! They seem to consider their kind on the maternal side! Unlike us on the paternal side. And this, too, must be taken into account when analyzing the genetic. In addition, all the same, genetically, if I remember correctly, inheritance goes along the male line. It is interesting that we have such peoples on the territory of Russia where the gender is considered on the female line? Well, I would like to know how this affected the genetics of the Jews. As far as I know, during the period of the Nikon reform, some settlements abandoned Orthodoxy and embraced Judaism by protesting. And thirsty in Israel, their descendants live. Purely Russian settlements are engaged in cattle breeding and milk production. They wanted our business to start only someone forbade them.
    1. Kaiten
      Kaiten 31 May 2016 18: 42
      +1
      Quote: MaksoMelan
      It is interesting that we have such peoples on the territory of Russia where the gender is considered on the female line? Well, I would like to know how this affected the genetics of the Jews.

      And how can genetics be affected if dad is Jewish and mom is Jewish? Mixed marriages became relevant among Jews only in the 20th century.
    2. Kaiten
      Kaiten 31 May 2016 18: 43
      0
      Quote: Kaiten
      It is interesting that we have such peoples on the territory of Russia where the gender is considered on the female line? Well, I would like to know how this affected the genetics of the Jews. As far as I know, during the period of the Nikon reform, some settlements abandoned Orthodoxy and embraced Judaism by protesting. And thirsty in Israel, their descendants live. Purely Russian settlements are engaged in cattle breeding and milk production. They wanted our business to start only someone forbade them.

      Subbotniki. By the way, some well-known Israeli military leaders come from subbotniks.
  32. Kaiten
    Kaiten 31 May 2016 18: 39
    +1
    Quote: MaksoMelan
    so the people calculates the Jews I do not understand! They seem to consider their kind on the maternal side! Unlike us on the paternal side.

    The Jews on the paternal side passed something like an estate. The Tanakh describes about 19 different classes, but so far only three are active. The first two are priestly estates - Coens and Levites, the last estate of the Israelites is a common people.