Military Review

Russian Space - the lame mare of import substitution

261



The first thing that was talked about in the space industry in the wake of import substitution programs was to create our own element base for spacecraft. As is known, the “black hole” that has been formed in this direction for two decades has been compensated not by the resumption of domestic developments, but by planned purchases abroad.

Two years ago, the situation seemed to be changing for the better, at least in the periodic statements of the Roscosmos leadership and presentations at scientific conferences where the problem was finally discussed from a practical point of view. But what is really hiding behind products with the signature “Made in Russia”? In fact, the resources for the creation of the element base are still being bought abroad, and the production in individual core companies is completely outside the country. In addition, in matters of import substitution, the most important issue of creating software for the operation of electrical radio products hardly sounds the most. In the meantime, foreign compilers are still being used in its development, the absence of which “unintended” functions is almost impossible to verify.

Legal "spies" for budget funds

Real import substitution will be possible only when solving three important problems of “dependence” of the space industry.

The first problem lies in the absence in Russia of its own design programs (otherwise compilers), on the basis of which the development of software for integrated circuits (various processors, RAM, storage devices, etc.) is underway.

At one time, this issue was dealt with at IPM. Mv Keldysh - an institute that completely took upon itself the development of such software. In the 1990-ies, scientific work in this area was reduced to nothing, and Russia was forced to purchase foreign products. So, at the moment all programs for spacecraft are written on American software.

This raises the first question: how much can this software be trusted? After all, to declare that this design program after the compilation process (assembly) does not “stitch” any parasitic software, parasitic functions into the processor, no one will undertake with the 100% probability. We do not know how it will work, we can not look inside, they are all closed. Such concerns are often expressed at scientific conferences of the industry, so that they cannot be attributed to ephemeral "spy fantasies" - the suspicions are quite reasonable, but difficult to prove.

High-tech "glands"


So what can a manufacturer do with a compiler? For example, lay in an element ad hoc functions, "sew" third-party software. The constructor program can additionally “flash” almost anything, depending on the purpose of the processor.

Worse yet, the compiler development theme is still not given to any firm. So here we can say that everything in the industry is still the same: Russia only does hardware, and there will be others to build management software.

That is, we can have our own excellent ERIs (electrical radio products, or, in the new terminology, ECB - electronic component base) for space and military tasks, our own algorithm, which we do and implement through these programs, but compiler programs, with which software will be created, no.

Resource crutch

The second, more discussed, but no less painful topic is the resources for the element base. A true “crutch” of import substitution here is a solid part of the components. Those where, for example, silicon is used (and it is used quite often due to good resistance to radiation) and other important components.

There are no high-quality silicon wafers for processors on the basis of which ERIs are made in Russia - there are no corresponding technologies. As a rule, plates are purchased abroad. It would seem that nothing terrible, but the danger in such purchases is still there. These plates are grown, and then cut by the manufacturer, and then realized. The highest quality part of the plate is the middle. For example, it can be left after cutting and given to some more priority buyer, and the fact that at the edges and where the quality is worse can be sent to Russia. Accordingly, another question arises: can some part be considered as import-substituted when the bulk of this silicon is not made with us?

Russian "shell" on the half-myth on CMOS technology

The third direction, in the implementation of import substitution programs in which it is necessary to pay the closest attention, is photodetectors. Here the situation is formally better - in the country appeared the relevant production, working on the space industry. For example, the company "Unic-Isis." However, those who would deal with the CMOS-technology problem in photo-receiving matrices (used for star and solar sensors, Earth sensors, etc.), and the latter are extremely scarce in Russia, are not there.

In addition, a very interesting scheme of existing production. The company mentioned above, and the best in this direction, consists of only a few offices in Zelenograd. They develop a topology, that is, in fact, they are engaged in the creation of design documentation for the manufacture of a matrix. However, the manufacturing plants themselves are located on the territory of other states. It turns out that after creating the documentation, it is given to the manufacturer abroad, and already there the part is produced in the right volumes, returning to Russia only for the body, where it receives the inscription “Made in Russia”. But how can this be called import substitution? After all, these are important jobs, these are technologies. In addition, the product comes almost ready and, therefore, check it from the inside is almost impossible.

There are quite a few such firms with external production, and there is a partial explanation for this. Until recently, the Ministry of Industry and Trade did not particularly strive to communicate with the space industry, since orders for it are considered unprofitable. The situation began to change only a couple of years ago. The fact is that large firms for the creation of ERI are accustomed to the release of large batches - at least 10 and even 100 thousands of elements. But for one unit of a spacecraft, for example, the entire 2-3-4 processor is needed maximum. Given that on the device 2-3 units are on average made, we get the maximum in 12. Of course, this does not correlate in any way with the benefit of thousands of elements and unprofitable for firms that do not really want to help the industry.

A ray of light with a fly in the ointment

From the positive results of the implementation of the replacement program in the industry, it should be noted the emergence of a large number of OCD (experimental design) for which one or another necessary element base is developed. But even here it is not without “pitfalls”: we have not done this for many years.

The new base, which will appear in the near future, will “fly” already in 2017 – 2018, and here we must also see how high-quality it will be. This issue seriously worries the space community. There are fears that it simply will not be able to function in those conditions. Yes, there are failures and unstable work in any ERI devices: Russian, American and European. The bottom line is that the United States and the European Union had time for mistakes and improvements, but do we have it?

So is there a boy?

What is the essence of these three areas of hidden “non-substitution” of imports? The fact that the products that are now being issued for the achievement of import substitution, in fact, that is, on 70 – 80%, is not, given that the “heart” is produced abroad and from foreign components. So, the processors are supposedly Russian-made, but the production itself, like the purchase of components, goes abroad. The position is comfortable, but potentially dangerous for the industry.

As for companies that are currently engaged in development, of course, they are doing a useful job, actually “closing” our backlog, for example, using CMOS technologies in photodetector matrices. But at the manufacturing plants there are no workers from Russia, and residents, for example, Taiwan, are engaged in production. That is, in fact, here we just draw pictures, and even with the prospect of missing the technology.

So far, the import substitution in the space industry is more like a lame mare about three legs and a crutch. If the indicated problems do not pass even into the stage of active practical discussions, the domestic space will remain sensitively dependent on foreign developments.
Author:
Originator:
http://dfnc.ru/kosmos/rossijskij-kosmos-hromaya-kobyla-importozameshheniya/
261 comment
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  1. Muvka
    Muvka 22 May 2016 16: 04
    +26
    As a semi-programmer I’ll say: the program can be checked for bookmarks. And the fact that the author wrote in this sense is nonsense.
    1. Vladimir61
      Vladimir61 22 May 2016 16: 15
      +18
      Quote: Muvka
      And the fact that the author wrote in this sense is nonsense.
      The author generally confuses the concepts of "programming language" and "software"!
      1. Tusv
        Tusv 22 May 2016 16: 27
        +22
        Quote: Vladimir61
        The author generally confuses the concepts of "programming language" and "software"!

        "He will still set conditions for me" - said the compiler to the programmer and hung up the system
        It seemed to me that the author does not confuse, but writes that this is one and the same.
        Or maybe we still write in Assembler?
        1. Felix
          Felix 22 May 2016 18: 55
          +9
          Quote: Tusv
          Or maybe we still write in Assembler?

          Naturally. And not only with us. All more or less serious ACM crystal programmers know and use. And all sorts of C ++ are good for applications with unlimited resources or all sorts of arduins.
        2. Wasiliy1985
          Wasiliy1985 22 May 2016 21: 05
          +10
          Do not believe it - they write! Whoever actually studied the "crystal" does so .. At the output, the program is two or three times more compact in volume, and, accordingly, faster than the one that was written in Xi pipi ..
          1. SergeBS
            SergeBS 23 May 2016 02: 42
            +10
            "A little" is wrong. And for a long time. I recommend taking a walk on the RADIO sites and make sure that they write VERY rarely in assembler for MK. And an argument like "this is for open products, but not so for closed products" will not work. Just drop this topic on the radio site - and everything will be clear at once.
            Worse, about reducing the size by 2-3 times and increasing the speed - it is AT ALL wrong. C optimizers are so advanced that even the coolest assembler will have to pant to save 25% of memory. And 2-3 times - from the field of ancient tales.
            Raise the speed of the critical section 2 times - it can somehow still work out. But "squeezing" the size by 3-2 times is unrealistic. Since this will take not 3-2 months of programming in C, but 3-XNUMX years, and it's not a fact that it will work out.
            I also wrote in due time in assembler. More "for some reason" do not want. The game is not worth the candle.
            Well, in addition - speeding up the program is an INCREASE in the size of the code, as a rule. And so that it was both faster and smaller - FAIRY TALES for any task is more difficult than "blinking an LED".
            1. Jack-b
              Jack-b 23 May 2016 06: 04
              +6
              Quote: SergeBS
              I also wrote in due time in assembler. More "for some reason" do not want. The game is not worth the candle.

              This is not worth it for you. When it comes to realtime applications in production processes, as a rule, only assembler. So do not speak for all programmers. It's just that you are working in the wrong industry.
              1. SergeBS
                SergeBS 23 May 2016 06: 15
                0
                Oh well, don't. Fingers fanned out "in the wrong branch" - I can pull up my classmates from Dolgoprudny - only the feathers will fly. For instance. In what industry should the "specialist" pluck the feathers?
                And I can even hint - "OS PB" - have you heard about this, my dear?
                How is the realtime system different from Mastday - can you formulate? smile
                So go with the songs "assembler above all" you know where. I am not responsible for your mossy luggage in programming. Design your steam locomotives further.
                1. Jack-b
                  Jack-b 23 May 2016 06: 58
                  0
                  Quote: SergeBS
                  Design your locomotives further.

                  Does the kakbe phrase hint that you are designing spacecraft? )))))
                  I won’t even argue. If you do not have an elementary understanding that each task should have its own tool, then the case is hopeless.
                  1. SergeBS
                    SergeBS 23 May 2016 07: 30
                    0
                    I explain a second time: I have "a little" differently. If someone from MYS tries to construct steam locomotives, he will get them in the head from me. And the "great toughness" experts in the assembler (not mine) - I do not really care. But to "snitch" on fans of show-off to push apart - as "two fingers on the asphalt", especially if "exceptional specialists" (get the hint?). Especially in a hopeless case - if the "kulkhatsker" boasts "I know the assembler, but I don't want to know anything else."
                    And there is no need to speak for "your instrument", which is one. Assembler. This is the "guano of the mammoth".
                    I do not design spacecraft - this is not a task for one, even a wide face like mine.
                    A little tip: do not understand that so far only assembler is known. This is now how to agitate for locomotives, despite the fact that EVERYWHERE is already - locomotives.
                    Quote: "If you do not have an elementary understanding that for each task there must be its own tool, then the case is hopeless."
                    Definitely. I KNOW the assembler, and not only him ... Therefore, I am not interested in show-offs of "cool assemblers" who promise - "the program will be 2 times smaller, and 3 times faster." Just because I know: FIGURES, and not show-off shine for you, cool assemblers.
                    With the "understanding" that "that for each task there must be its own tool", which is an assembler.
                    "On your fingers": walk, Vasya. And don't blame for real-time systems anymore. With its "assembler above all else".
                    1. adept666
                      adept666 23 May 2016 09: 06
                      +3
                      I explain a second time: I have "a little" differently.
                      Boiling up? smile
                      Therefore, I am not interested in show-offs of "cool assemblers" who promise - "2 times less program, and 3 times faster."
                      Then they just forgot to add 10 times more buggy, and so all the rules laughing
                      1. SergeBS
                        SergeBS 29 May 2016 23: 14
                        0
                        Well, it would only be more buggy, there is a terrible trouble - "assembler gurus" from programming, they do not bother with SUPPORT of their own software. Those. somewhere in 3-5 years, their "brilliant result" is thrown into the trash can, because "the radio is on an armored personnel carrier, and MUST work, but on lamps or drinzistera - I am not IPET!"
                    2. Jack-b
                      Jack-b 23 May 2016 11: 23
                      +5
                      Quote: SergeBS
                      "On your fingers": walk, Vasya. And don't blame for real-time systems anymore. With its "assembler above all else".

                      You, my friend, are not only stupid like a cork, but also a decent hamlo.
                      Quote: SergeBS
                      especially if "exceptional specialists" (got the hint?)

                      I explain it for the "teachable". I don't program in assembly language. This is not my task and not my calling. But we have a department working directly with the equipment. And in 50% of cases they work in assembler. Not because they don't know anything else, but because the other doesn't work. When an assembler is not needed, they work on everything they can, it's easier and faster. And on critical tasks they switch to assembler.
                      Quote: SergeBS
                      But here to "snitch" on fans of show-off to push

                      Of course, it is especially pleasing that, punting with its steepness, you are not able to use the elementary citation function on the forum.
                      1. SergeBS
                        SergeBS 23 May 2016 19: 18
                        0
                        Quote: Jack-B
                        I explain it for the "teachable". I don't program in assembly language. This is not my task and not my calling.

                        So will the citation work? smile
                        I don’t care how to quote.

                        Summary of quote: "I am not a programmer, but I believe that assembler is the main tool in real time systems."
                        Well, why not remember the immortal:
                        If you write in C,
                        Be at least three times lamer.
                        They say about this
                        "He's a cool programmer."
                        (c) Unknown libel.
                        Connect your assembler to the controversy, because it is impossible to prove to a programmer what is right and what is wrong in programming. What is called: "we will argue about the taste of oysters with those who ate them."
                        An example from practice: a certain "cool specialist", who knows ONLY FoxPro 2.6 (DOS!), Started a multiuser system on Fox with a show-off. Which, of course, she worked with a show-off. She sat down in one place - poked buttons, then sat down on another - poked buttons - "everything is fine."
                        But the audience regularly had "bangs", guaranteed, as they say, by design.
                        Explaining to her that she was "a little fool" - it was useless even to try, like a savage from the jungle - how the locomotive works. Wrong level of knowledge. And the "big bosses" simply "ticked the box" - "the job is done." It's easier to live this way.

                        Further: if you just compare the labor intensity of development in C and assembler, then it turns out that for ANY WOMAN (10-20%) gain in resources is paid by an increase in labor intensity by 200-300%. It's just stupid. It is cheaper and faster to take the MC up a notch and not toil with foolishness, saving "whole" 1-3 KBytes. This is a long recognized fact. Life practice.
                        But there is much more "mechanical" work in assembler. There are more lines of code. You also need to think less - just sending data takes a lot of time clicking buttons.

                        Considering that MK with hundreds of Kb memory is a reality for a long time, and their architecture has long reached the PC level in terms of capabilities, it is almost impossible to poke in assembler. It is one thing when RON is 1-2 dozen, and quite another when it is under 100, plus peripheral registers.

                        Well, I repeat the question: what is the difference between real-time systems from MastDay?
                        "On the fingers" - the main feature of RT OS?

                        Re-read. I realized that this is no longer on the topic of the article. You can not answer. Or discuss it elsewhere.
                      2. Jack-b
                        Jack-b 24 May 2016 10: 43
                        0
                        Quote: SergeBS
                        It is cheaper and faster to take the MC up a notch and not toil with foolishness, saving "whole" 1-3 KB.

                        Exaggerating, but apparently in a different way, you don’t understand: what problems, lack of performance, we will replace MK with a supercomputer, and we will launch it into space and poher that it is necessary to take a rocket launcher of a heavy class instead of a light one because:
                        Quote: SergeBS
                        a gain in resources is paid by an increase in labor input by 200-300%.
                        And the guys in the next department and do not know nichrome that you can take and cram a supercomputer, soar in assembler with MK. , do not spare their labor. But it turns out you can write everything on FoxPro! Low-level show-offs in the past!
                      3. SergeBS
                        SergeBS 29 May 2016 23: 07
                        0
                        Quote: Jack-B
                        Exaggerating, but apparently in a different way, you don’t understand: what problems, lack of performance, we will replace MK with a supercomputer, and we will launch it into space and poher that it is necessary to take a rocket launcher of a heavy class instead of a light one because:

                        It’s you, my dear, you don’t understand - I have the same classmates in Bolshevo (in the same MCC).
                        So, leave the cheap show-offs about the "heavy-class launch vehicle" to someone else. Because REALLY upgrading does not mean increasing mass. Surprise! smile
                        For the third time, I propose: let's dump the discussion into a SEPARATE topic, "Russian space - the lame mare of import substitution" - not related.
                        To make it COMPLETELY clear: I am "with extraordinary ease", since this toy has been working for 3 years already, I can throw a "well, very simple" project on the ATtiny15L MK, and giggle at the result of "cool assemblers" who promised to reduce resources not even by 3, and 2 times.
                        To make it COMPLETELY clear: I know all sorts of assemblers and different (I still remember about the PDP-11/34 assembler), and I know "something else", so "cool assemblers" have every right to sit with their bare butts not on a hedgehog (this is humane) but on the boar.
                        Well, traditionally: "boots interfere with a bad dancer" (well, I did not decipher that it is not boots, but something else that interferes smile
          2. Felix
            Felix 23 May 2016 06: 45
            +3
            Quote: Jack-B
            This is not worth it for you. When it comes to realtime applications in production processes, as a rule, only assembler. So do not speak for all programmers. It's just that you are working in the wrong industry.


            Plus fiercely.
            1. SergeBS
              SergeBS 23 May 2016 07: 43
              0
              Quote: "It's not worth it for you. When it comes to real-time applications, production processes are usually just assembler."
              And this is nothing that for the EFFICIENCY of the automation of the technical process, in the last century, I transplanted "cool assemblers" to Pascal? Moreover, it is in the process technology. Fryazino, 41st plant. He is NPO Platan? smile
              1. Jack-b
                Jack-b 23 May 2016 11: 30
                +2
                Quote: SergeBS
                And this is nothing that for the EFFICIENCY of the automation of the technical process, in the last century, I transplanted "cool assemblers" to Pascal? Moreover, it is in the process technology. Fryazino, 41st plant. He is NPO Platan?

                I looked on the Internet for "Platan", they write that the kerdyk came to him. So I think: isn't this the result of your EFFECTIVE work?
                1. SergeBS
                  SergeBS 23 May 2016 19: 32
                  0
                  Kirdyk is the result of the "effective work" of the Marked Bear and the EBN. They destroyed the defense industry.
                  1. adept666
                    adept666 23 May 2016 20: 20
                    -1
                    Kirdyk is the result of the "effective work" of the Marked Bear and the EBN. They destroyed the defense industry.
                    What are you ... to me, one individual stubbornly proves that in the 90s there were more high-tech industries (I have a direct cognitive dissonance from such comrades that I feel like I didn’t live at that time) than now and what if it hadn’t you know who, now it would be WOW-GO! laughing
                  2. SergeBS
                    SergeBS 29 May 2016 23: 29
                    0
                    Quote: adept666
                    one individual stubbornly proves to me that in the 90s there were more high-tech industries (I have a direct cognitive dissonance from such comrades that I feel like I didn’t live at that time),

                    They lie. When I was plowing in Fryazino (before the annihilation of the defense industry as a class), GenDir "on a dashing boar" dreamed of entering the USSR Academy of Sciences (blue laser). Didn't fold. Personally, I had to kick local "programmers" away from PLOS (SM-4 - google, who did not understand). And then it hurts to beat on the heads - "don't bother with the assembler. I ALSO know it, and I'll love you with it."
  2. iConst
    iConst 22 May 2016 23: 24
    +5
    Quote: Tusv
    It seemed to me that the author does not confuse, but writes that this is one and the same.
    Or maybe we still write in Assembler?

    - Yes, there are monsters of programming. If you need the fastest code, then only that.

    Regarding the author’s scarecrows: the compiler, in the end, you can write your own, homegrown - for the state, such costs can afford.

    The presence of bookmarks on the chip is easily checked: by monitoring the process - customer representatives have the right to check print masks for compliance with the originals, and the second way is reverse engineering.
    This is when the microchip micron by micron is polished and the topology is studied under a microscope.

    But believe me - firms (and Taiwan produces the Baikal process for us) will not get involved in such a scandal. This will really scare all other external customers.

    Elbrus, as far as I know, is produced at our place (maybe beyond the hill) - this explains the technical process lagging by two orders of magnitude.
    1. poquello
      poquello 23 May 2016 02: 18
      +1
      Quote: iConst
      Yes, there are monsters of programming.

      monsters immediately write in machine codes, then they are monsters, well, like a circle in a film about Korolev
      1. SergeBS
        SergeBS 23 May 2016 04: 46
        +1
        Not monsters, but mammoths. Extinct. But the legends remained. smile
    2. adept666
      adept666 23 May 2016 08: 58
      +1
      Elbrus, as far as I know, is produced at our place (maybe beyond the hill) - this explains the technical process lagging by two orders of magnitude.
      We have only Elbrus-2SM (90 nm), and 4C (65 nm) and 8C (28 nm) over the hill.
  3. user
    user 23 May 2016 10: 59
    0
    Or maybe we still write in Assembler?


    They also write about it, although I’ve been sorting things out with a friend on the site for a long time when I wrote that the avionics control at ISS named after academician M. F. Reshetnyov is written in machine code, so he just did not blame me - well, they kind of lagged behind I’ll never catch software from the bourgeois, but I missed a simple thought on speed, compactness and low resource consumption (at least on the Z80 or KR580VM80A, and this is interesting for SM 1800 and 1979.)

    What is the essence of these three directions of hidden “non-substitution” of imports? The fact that the products that are now being issued for the achievement of import substitution, in fact, that is, 70–80%, is not,


    I would like to see how quickly this can be done in 1-3 years, the Soviet Union, with its resources, could not carry it out. But everything is moving slowly, though damn slowly - but not hopelessly. And if we move like that with such pressure (in the sense of budget and state support), then everything will be fine, because until recently it seemed that we would never finish Vostochny Cosmodrome.
    1. SergeBS
      SergeBS 30 May 2016 01: 21
      0
      Quote: user
      But he missed a simple thought: speed, compactness and low resource consumption (at least on the Z80 or КР580ВМ80А, and this is interesting for SM 1800 and 1979.)

      Well yes. At the beginning of the 20th century, EVERYONE used steam locomotives. And to switch to diesel locomotives - "What do you mean, the steam locomotive is our everything!", As in the same 20th century cab drivers used to drive out motorists ("the sheep fill the mound - it will go"), and died out.
      Ponte further about speed and compactness (steam locomotive wink ).
  • GSH-18
    GSH-18 22 May 2016 18: 35
    0
    Russian Space - the lame mare of import substitution

    Strange at least statement. But what about the celebrated RD-180 for America ???
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 22 May 2016 19: 32
      +1
      "But what about the glorious RD-180 for America" ​​- But what about the construction of nuclear reactors abroad.
      1. alexng
        alexng 22 May 2016 20: 32
        +1
        Quote: Vadim237
        But what about the construction of nuclear reactors abroad.


        How? How? Abroad... lol
      2. GSH-18
        GSH-18 22 May 2016 21: 31
        0
        Quote: Vadim237
        "But what about the glorious RD-180 for America" ​​- But what about the construction of nuclear reactors abroad.

        Quote: Vadim237
        "But what about the glorious RD-180 for America" ​​- But what about the construction of nuclear reactors abroad.

        Quote: Vadim237
        "But what about the glorious RD-180 for America" ​​- But what about the construction of nuclear reactors abroad.

        This is the "unidentified" Chali-Chuli Anglo-Saxon am Where are they without us? The "exceptional" movements speak for themselves request
        There is no brain, really, but the show-off is fucked up!
        Their taxpayers even in the know about this next shnyag ???
        TIME TO TRANSLATE AND POPULARIZE OUR SITE IN AMERICA!
        If WE read NI articles, then precious AMERICANS should also be able to read a different point of view from their official point of view!
        ADMINISTS !!! Act please in full! If Che is needed from me, I’m always at your service yes
        1. poquello
          poquello 23 May 2016 02: 23
          +1
          Quote: GSH-18
          And where are they without us?

          that week or more, the Americans on the ISS broke their space urine, where exactly "okay, okay ..."
        2. SergeBS
          SergeBS 23 May 2016 05: 12
          +2
          Quote: "ADMINS !!! Act plizz to the fullest! If you need anything from me, I'm all at your service always"
          What about your English technical, sir? In America, they don't know how to read Russian, and Google will translate it in such a way that it won't seem like a little. To quote: "TRANSLATE AND POPULARIZE OUR SITE IN AMEROSPACE!" you need "quite a bit" - to translate into English at least the BASIC theses and topics. According to my modest estimates, this team needs a man at 12-15. Full time. NOT A HOBBY.
    2. ava09
      ava09 22 May 2016 19: 34
      +14
      Quote: GSH-18
      Russian Space - the lame mare of import substitution

      Strange at least statement. But what about the celebrated RD-180 for America ???

      Do not touch RD - 180, our fathers and grandfathers did it. They had enough of Khrushch, who declared: - "Cybernetics is the corrupt girl of imperialism!" It's about the current state of affairs.
    3. iliitchitch
      iliitchitch 22 May 2016 21: 43
      0
      Quote: GSH-18
      Strange at least statement. But what about the celebrated RD-180 for America ???


      The Americans say that it’s a pile of scrap to them - long and expensive, easier to buy. GM ... But are they even capable of the 150s? There are, of course, elon masks and pasta. Fly, kid. Only do not kill people at the start.
    4. alllll
      alllll 22 May 2016 22: 24
      -2
      There are ridiculous amounts actually.
    5. rpek32
      rpek32 23 May 2016 04: 04
      0
      Quote: GSH-18
      Strange at least statement. But what about the celebrated RD-180 for America ???

      engine is one thing, and another thing is that this engine will be lucky in orbit. the author writes about the second.
      there is sound grain in his reasoning - the only thing that prevents getting rid of imports is the lack of technology. so let our Chinese as reverse engineering do. disassembled, picked up, understood the essence and made copies.
    6. blind
      blind 23 May 2016 04: 55
      +1
      But what have the engines to do with it? it's about electronic stuffing of space
  • VSkilled
    VSkilled 22 May 2016 19: 57
    +18
    The green article recalls the "passion for polymers" already imposed in the teeth.

    You can still imagine a hardware tab "on a chip" with its own "proprietary" software, but the "intrigues" of the compiler ...

    Rave. The author is not familiar with programming, from the word "absolutely".
    1. adept666
      adept666 22 May 2016 21: 52
      +8
      Rave. The author is not familiar with programming, from the word "absolutely".
      Looks like they paid some paid components for delphi when he was still in the studio, they prescribed that they are trial and should be paid and he could not fix it laughing Yes, and silicon is cooked and cut by us, so he is not aware of the situation as a whole, and not only regarding the evil NATO C ++ compilers smile
      1. Zuborez
        Zuborez 22 May 2016 23: 44
        +3
        Quote: adept666
        Yes, and silicon is cooked and cut by us, so he is not aware of the situation as a whole, and not only regarding the evil NATO C ++ compilers

        I could read the article only to flint plates.
        Give, I think, komenty look, and I was not mistaken laughing
    2. SergeBS
      SergeBS 23 May 2016 05: 23
      +3
      + I can’t deliver. Just registered.
      Especially to plant the "all-propals" on the kukan. But, alas, I will correct you.
      Hardware "bookmark" with the ORDERED crystal topology - it will be more expensive than developing the crystal topology. Because it should be UNSIGNIFICANT. On technological maps, according to which ordered is compared with what was actually done. It's like a cow with not 4 teats on its udder, but 5. If it's primitive. "Genetically modified" smile
  • Freeman
    Freeman 22 May 2016 16: 15
    +13
    Muvka RU Today, 16:04 PM
    As a semi-programmer I’ll say: the program can be checked for bookmarks. And what the author wrote in this sense is rubbish


    If so, could you check for "bookmarks and spyware" in Windows 10? It would be interesting to know your opinion. hi
    1. Muvka
      Muvka 22 May 2016 16: 20
      +15
      And what does the huge system have to do with, about which, in principle, you do not know anything, and a self-written program about the functions of which you know absolutely everything?
      1. ava09
        ava09 22 May 2016 18: 03
        +2
        Quote: Muvka
        And what does the huge system have to do with, about which, in principle, you do not know anything, and a self-written program about the functions of which you know absolutely everything?

        A program written "with your own hands" in what environment will it work? Is it not the one about which you "know nothing"? We can talk about open source systems, we can talk about Windows. The first, such as Linux and its variable assemblies, belong to EVERYONE, and Windows belongs only to the developer. Obviously, the Russian Federation has nothing of its own in this area. With hardware, the situation is better, but not much.
        1. Muvka
          Muvka 22 May 2016 18: 11
          +4
          Not on Windows, do not worry.
        2. K-50
          K-50 22 May 2016 18: 11
          +9
          Quote: ava09
          Obviously, the Russian Federation has nothing of its own in this area.

          But nothing that Kaspersky Anti-Virus is known all over the world. Yes, and other sea programs. What most programs written in mattress are written by any other programmers, but not mattresses? fool
          When you smack nonsense, at least insert a gag so that there is no noise request lol laughing
          1. ava09
            ava09 22 May 2016 19: 25
            +9
            Quote: K-50
            Quote: ava09
            Obviously, the Russian Federation has nothing of its own in this area.

            But nothing that Kaspersky Anti-Virus is known all over the world. Yes, and other sea programs. What most programs written in mattress are written by any other programmers, but not mattresses? fool
            When you smack nonsense, at least insert a gag so that there is no noise request lol laughing

            Are you confused? You talk nonsense yourself, but hurry up to blame the other. The argument was "killer", I'll tell you a terrible secret - people are engaged in programming !!!))) But on whose side are these people? The question is open. The fact that the Russian Federation does not yet have its own operating system is a fact. And the "hodgepodge" from the Internet, no matter how attractive, is vulnerable. And I don't care about the Yankees.
            1. aiw
              aiw 22 May 2016 20: 46
              -1
              > people are engaged in programming !!!))) But on whose side are these people? The question is open. The fact that the Russian Federation does not yet have its own operating system is a fact. And the "hodgepodge" from the Internet, no matter how attractive, is vulnerable. And I don't care about the Yankees.

              "Even if you are paranoid, this does not mean that you are not being watched" (c) Does Napurkua RF have its own OS, if you finish the finished one with open source? What do they do ...
          2. The comment was deleted.
        3. adept666
          adept666 22 May 2016 21: 55
          +1
          Is it not the one about which you "know nothing"?
          Not in that one)
          Obviously, the Russian Federation has nothing of its own in this area.
          Not obvious. We have a bunch of reassembled tench cores, the same Elbrus (not to be confused with the processor) + our assemblies for supercomputers from all sorts of Moscow State University / MSTU and other fierce educational institutions.
        4. alexng
          alexng 22 May 2016 22: 09
          +3
          Don't talk nonsense. All firmwares are written in machine codes, i.e. in numbers. And what has to do with the compiler, which is used in the programming environment at a higher level of machine codes. Assembler is also not an absolutely low-level language - it is an add-on over processor codes to facilitate writing programs, although it is conditionally a low-level language. The article seems to have been written by a person who is very far from IT technologies. And the technology of manufacturing chips is somewhat different from the usual programming, i.e. multilayer crystal growth, for example, not to mention film technology for manufacturing chips. There are, of course, chips with a built-in mask and are stitched bit by bit. The firmware itself is "trampled" hand-to-hand in the clan, and the program for pouring into the mask chip, as a rule, is written by experts themselves and no one advertises it.
        5. SergeBS
          SergeBS 23 May 2016 05: 37
          +3
          Quote: "A program written" with your own hands "in what environment will it work?"
          Yes, it will work in any environment. I, as a "charge for the mind" for 2-3 months in the evenings dashed off the program, which is like X, that Wind is purple. Stupid, really. Just fumble on the laptop - which company is the battery, how many cycles it worked ...
          Quote: "The first, such as Linux and its variable assemblies, belong to EVERYONE, and Windows only to the developer. Obviously, the Russian Federation has nothing of its own in this area."
          So what? The potato is imported to us from America. And nothing. We grow, fry in a perfume of sunflower oil and burst.
          Moreover, no America will prevent us from doing this. smile
        6. Jack-b
          Jack-b 23 May 2016 06: 51
          +2
          Quote: ava09
          A program written "with your own hands", in what environment will it work?

          Do you think that our satellites work on Windows? ))))))))))))) it is good that my chair rests against the wall with the back, otherwise I would have broken my head.
          Quote: ava09
          It is obvious that the Russian Federation has nothing of its own in this area. With hardware the situation is better, but not much.

          The export of Russian software in 2015 amounted to $ 7bn. You are also mistaken about Linux. Linux is essentially the kernel. And everything else is already related software. The kernel is distributed under a free license, and everything else must already be watched. And then there are a darkness of nuances. Up to the point that there are commercial versions of Linux-a. And there are Russian versions of Linux: GosLinux (already installed at 16-thousand workstations of the bailiff service), RosaLinux (installed at Gazprom enterprises and has FSTEC certificates for working with the state secret - this is by the way to the question of checking bookmarks), AltLinux (It has been published for a long time, but their successes are unknown to me, and in my opinion it is pretty poor).
    2. Homo
      Homo 22 May 2016 17: 20
      +7
      Quote: Freeman
      If so, could you check for "bookmarks and spyware" in Windows 10? It would be interesting to know your opinion.

      Firstly, a lot has been written about bookmarks in W10. Secondly - W10 is written there for their needs. Thirdly, strategic servers on W10 do not work.
      1. killganoff
        killganoff 22 May 2016 18: 45
        +10
        Dear, software of almost all weapons systems in the Russian Ministry of Defense on Linux.
        In addition, probably, the author meant not only software, but also hidden (spy) functions in microprocessors, which are also known to be purchased abroad: China, Taiwan, the USA, etc.
        1. Muvka
          Muvka 22 May 2016 18: 57
          +2
          Quote: killganoff
          Dear, software of almost all weapons systems in the Russian Ministry of Defense on Linux.
          In addition, probably, the author meant not only software, but also hidden (spy) functions in microprocessors, which are also known to be purchased abroad: China, Taiwan, the USA, etc.

          For defense we use our processors. Linux is an open system, as far as I know. There are hardly any bookmarks there, and if there are, our programmers cleared them out. And recently they began to produce ready-made systems on elbrus for a citizen (almost).
          1. Jack-b
            Jack-b 23 May 2016 07: 10
            0
            Quote: Muvka
            And recently they began to produce ready-made systems on elbrus for a citizen (almost).

            Correct, Elbrus is very expensive for a citizen. And, as far as I know, they are almost never used for civilians. More for the military. Baikal is a more affordable option for a citizen. They are cheaper since the "semi-domestic" option. Our development under a foreign (in my opinion, English) license and with a foreign (in my opinion, Taiwanese) production.
            1. Muvka
              Muvka 23 May 2016 08: 00
              0
              Quote: Jack-B
              Quote: Muvka
              And recently they began to produce ready-made systems on elbrus for a citizen (almost).

              Correct, Elbrus is very expensive for a citizen. And, as far as I know, they are almost never used for civilians. More for the military. Baikal is a more affordable option for a citizen. They are cheaper since the "semi-domestic" option. Our development under a foreign (in my opinion, English) license and with a foreign (in my opinion, Taiwanese) production.

              Roads, because the series are small. But with what it is necessary to begin. And I meant that they won’t sell it to a simple user anyway, but it’s already available for large companies. And this is a huge step forward. Already not only a military man.
    3. Felix
      Felix 22 May 2016 18: 56
      +2
      Quote: Freeman

      If so, could you check for "bookmarks and spyware" in Windows 10? It would be interesting to know your opinion.


      To do this, you must have the source code in front of your eyes. And nobody will give it to us.
    4. Yarik
      Yarik 22 May 2016 19: 46
      0
      Destroy Windows 10 Spying wassat
    5. adept666
      adept666 22 May 2016 22: 09
      +1
      If so, could you check for "bookmarks and spyware" in Windows 10? It would be interesting to know your opinion.
      You can do this, it's just that this process is not fast, but you can disassemble everything. But here the question is more likely: why goat button accordion? If the windows are open in the user agreement they write that they have the right to collect any information about you and even reserve the right to transfer it if they consider it necessary to third parties. At the beta stage, Windows took screenshots of the installation and sent it to the melkosoft server. So if you plan to relax somewhere abroad in a country where the extradition agreement with the United States is at risk, if you have stolen software, you’ll be in Guantanamo laughing
    6. vsdvs
      vsdvs 22 May 2016 23: 15
      +1
      Have you ever handed over a PC with installed licensed software for special checks in the FSB? There, the presence of bookmarks is checked.
  • kuz363
    kuz363 22 May 2016 16: 23
    0
    Very doubtful. And you're overconfident, half-programmer. The brains of many Russian programmers who know all the weaknesses of Russian programs have leaked to the west
    1. Muvka
      Muvka 22 May 2016 16: 25
      +10
      Quote: kuz363
      Very doubtful. And you're overconfident, half-programmer. The brains of many Russian programmers who know all the weaknesses of Russian programs have leaked to the west

      No comment. How this relates to bookmarks that the compiler does, I do not know.
    2. shurik
      shurik 22 May 2016 17: 00
      .
      Russian programs


      ???????????????
    3. alexng
      alexng 22 May 2016 23: 14
      +2
      Quote: kuz363
      The brains of many Russian programmers who know all the weaknesses of Russian programs have leaked to the west


      This is a two-way street. The Americans only recently realized that they themselves fell for their own trick with the game of WINDO giveaway. I will explain for the gifted, remember the radio games during the Second World War. Informed about bookmarks means armed. Don't idealize. Windows itself is very vulnerable and plays a cruel joke for the Americans themselves. For example, the operation in the Crimea "polite people" did not help them, but in fact only led them astray. And so they now pay for their idiocy already on all fronts and they have such an information mess (where is the misinformation or where is reality), with which they themselves do not understand what to do with it. Yes, and our users with their "non-standard" took their brains out completely.
      1. region58
        region58 22 May 2016 23: 31
        +1
        Quote: alexneg
        such an information mess (where is the disinformation or where is the reality) with which they themselves do not understand what to do with it

        By the way, the problem of searching through arrays of unstructured information is one of the most relevant. If you even have the opportunity to monitor all Internet traffic, then how to find what interests us in this mess?
    4. SergeBS
      SergeBS 23 May 2016 05: 53
      +1
      Quote: "Very doubtful. And you are too self-confident, half-under-programmer. The brains of many Russian programmers who know all the weaknesses of Russian programs have flowed to the West."
      I'm laughing at you, sir. A programmer MAY (if a serious programmer, not a button-painter) know the weak points of his program. But only. Someone else's soul (program) - darkness. As a "semi-nedoprogrammer" with about 40 years of experience (I wrote the first program in codes in 1976), I explain this to the "super programmer". Next time - "I will beat hard, but definitely" (c) Papanov.
  • Denis Obukhov
    Denis Obukhov 22 May 2016 16: 29
    +33
    Low oil prices and a reluctance to sell Western components to Russia are good for Russia.
    Entire groupings have been formed that steal billions and do everything not to develop production at home, proving that why do their own if it’s easier to buy petty dollars on the side.
    I keep my fingers, so that the sanctions would last even at least 5 years. tightened and the price tag for oil in no case did not climb up. Then we will restore our production, and stop feeding and keeping someone else's producer, and create jobs for our people.

    Otherwise, it will be like after 2008. When they started amid the collapse of oil prices and the crisis, they were engaged in their own industry, but after a year and a half, oil prices climbed up. Bad money became chickens do not peck. Please buy on the side. An army of corrupt officials and outright thieves was abandoned and bred.
    1. Orionvit
      Orionvit 22 May 2016 18: 13
      +7
      That's right. If Russia is really going to depend on no one, it is necessary to produce its elemental base, especially in our time. As an example, this was done in the USSR. The country was almost completely self-sufficient in everything, including microchips. In Zaporozhye, for example, there was a full production cycle, from growing silicon single crystals and cutting them into wafers, to manufacturing finished products. The local engineering institute even had a closed specialty - Semiconductors. True, with the collapse in 1991, this plant was closed first.
    2. ziqzaq
      ziqzaq 22 May 2016 19: 14
      +1
      Quote: Denis Obukhov
      Low oil prices and a reluctance to sell Western components to Russia are good for Russia.
      Entire groupings have been formed that steal billions and do everything not to develop production at home, proving that why do their own if it’s easier to buy petty dollars on the side.
      I keep my fingers, so that the sanctions would last even at least 5 years. tightened and the price tag for oil in no case did not climb up. Then we will restore our production, and stop feeding and keeping someone else's producer, and create jobs for our people.

      Otherwise, it will be like after 2008. When they started amid the collapse of oil prices and the crisis, they were engaged in their own industry, but after a year and a half, oil prices climbed up. Bad money became chickens do not peck. Please buy on the side. An army of corrupt officials and outright thieves was abandoned and bred.

      Your approach to business is interesting:
      Let there be little money, then thieves will steal less and maybe everyone will be better ....
      Maybe it's easier to push thieves from the state feeder? Do you seriously think that the red face does at least something for the country? Does nanoparriage bring?
      Soon, elections to the Duma, can choose others, air defense for example? The current composition of the Duma has clearly taken hold of the chair and is not going to change anything, only the patriotic rhetoric before the election gives more ....
    3. Alf
      Alf 22 May 2016 20: 10
      +3
      Quote: Denis Obukhov
      I keep my fingers, so that the sanctions would last even at least 5 years. tightened and the price tag for oil in no case did not climb up. Then we will restore our production, and stop feeding and keeping someone else's producer, and create jobs for our people.

      What are you talking about, if the GDP declared? There will be no modernization of the economy, just cut back on costs. And the iPhone blurted out recently that we will not pour money into the economy, as this will accelerate inflation. None of the EP is going to raise the industry, it is long, expensive and risky. In Russia, not a single plant for the production of means of production is currently under construction. Over the past 10 years, at least one machine tool plant built? Now on TV flicker frames of factories producing weapons. Yes, now the military-industrial complex is on horseback, but look at the equipment on them — firm, firm, firm. GDP invited Kudrin to work, and this is living on petrodollars and the development of his industry.
      1. Dryuya2
        Dryuya2 22 May 2016 21: 48
        +1
        Quote: ziqzaq
        Your approach to business is interesting:

        Quote: Alf
        What are you talking about

        deniska tongue
        http://vpk.name/news/147993_importozameshenie__blesk_i_nisheta_rossiiskogo_oboro
        nnopromyishlennogo_kompleksa.html? m = 313680
        1. Tibidokh
          Tibidokh 23 May 2016 04: 50
          0
          Quote: Dryuya2
          Denis tongue

          This is the denouement! belay
  • The comment was deleted.
  • sergeybulkin
    sergeybulkin 22 May 2016 18: 54
    +10
    The highest quality part of the plate is the middle. For example, it can be left after slicing and given to some more priority buyer, and the fact that the edges and where the quality is worse can already be sent to Russia. Accordingly, another question arises: is it possible to consider some detail as import-substituted when the bulk of this silicon is not made by us?

    The author along the way understands electronics and its stuffing at the user level of the remote control for the TV. laughing
    Generally, he cannot imagine the production process of "chips" of a high degree of integration. And silicon (wafers) in Soviet times was purchased over the hill, mainly in Japan and in the States too.
    What he says about compilers (and indeed about electronics) is complete nonsense. Any experienced programmer will easily find excess or missing in his program. For example, the software for Buran was written entirely in Fortran and Macroassembler, and the "chips" were made on "Angstrem" and designed there.
    I don’t understand why, why they write such a crap from it ... Bullshit ... wassat
    1. Asadullah
      Asadullah 22 May 2016 21: 27
      +1
      The author along the way understands electronics and its stuffing at the user level of the remote control for the TV.


      I doubt it. But an iron without a remote control is just too tough for him.
    2. adept666
      adept666 22 May 2016 22: 27
      +1
      And in Soviet times, silicon (wafers) was purchased over the hill, mainly in Japan and in the United States too.
      Somewhere we’re doing it ourselves. From 14:28 ...
  • VSkilled
    VSkilled 22 May 2016 19: 55
    +2
    Well, colleague ...

    The green article recalls the "passion for polymers" already imposed in the teeth.

    You can still imagine a hardware tab with your own "proprietary" software, but the "intrigues" of the compiler ...

    Rave. The author is not familiar with programming, from the word "absolutely".
    1. solo.oboroten
      solo.oboroten 23 May 2016 00: 46
      +1
      Quote: VSkilled
      You can still imagine a hardware tab with your own "proprietary" software, but the "intrigues" of the compiler ...


      The Thompson Attack has been known since the 1980s (quote from http://www.transform.ru/articles/html/14elsafe/saf00015.article):
      A lecture by Ken Thompson, one of the founding fathers of the modern IT industry, entitled Reflections on Trusting Trust, delivered at the 1984 Turing Prize awards ceremony, and a ten-year-long analysis of Multics OS vulnerabilities by the US Air Force Electronic Systems Division, “opened veil ”showing that compilers can be modified, which makes it possible to install“ trojans ”covertly into any software products created with their help (including the compilers themselves!), in whose source there is no hint of anything like that. Subsequently, by analyzing the source code of the software, it becomes impossible to detect such an attack.

      In the 1980s in the notorious AT&T in the Ken Thompson group, a C ++ compiler was installed that allows you to insert a "loophole" into the executable code that it generates. After that, a neighboring group was asked to copy this compiler and its source, since the previous copy was supposedly outdated. Suspecting nothing, the neighbors installed and started using the “infected” copy, and a month later the “trojan”, as expected, was found in the registration utility in their “updated” system, which was now open to anyone who knew the “magic word”. Subsequently, already in the mid-1990s. Thompson K., responding to concerns expressed among the IT community, said that the modified compiler never left Bell Labs. Well, if it's true - so much the better. But for complete peace of mind this is not enough ...

      The attack demonstrated by Thompson destroys the very basis of a software security audit - the correspondence of the executable code to the source. A number of experts, including from companies such as ISS (part of IBM), note a high degree of its threat, and some of them even argue that as long as it exists, no computer system can be considered safe.

      Implementation of the attack using the method described above leads to the fact that all currently developed static and dynamic methods for assessing software security become useless. Theoretically, a continuous line-by-line comparison of the behavior of a program launched for execution with what is set by its source code is possible, but this, firstly, requires additional computing power, and secondly, the monitoring tool itself can also undergo such an attack.
      1. SergeBS
        SergeBS 23 May 2016 06: 06
        0
        Quote: "Thompson Attack has been known since the 1980s (I quote http://www.transform.ru/articles/html/14elsafe/saf00015.article):"
        Well yes. And at the beginning of the 20th century, everyone believed in "magnetism". Only times are changing. And Rolls-Royce of the 20th century with "sufficient" engine power is no longer interesting to anyone. As well as attacks on MS-DOS.
        1. solo.oboroten
          solo.oboroten 26 May 2016 07: 40
          0
          Quote: SergeBS
          Like attacks on MS-DOS.

          It was a demonstration of an attack on UNIX, and what does MS-DOS have to do with it?

          Details (quote from http://www.osp.ru/os/2000/09/178144/):
          The availability of the source code for the UNIX operating system and most of the applications created for it led to the fact that “debriefing”, as a rule, began and ended with an analysis of the source code, but not compiled machine codes (though, the Maurice virus still required laborious disassembly, But that's another story). The compiler was considered an impassive, infallible, consistent creation. And Thompson had a brilliant idea - to teach the compiler to recognize the source code of the standard login program, and each time you compile it, add special code to it that is capable of entering a secret password (known to Thompson alone) to pass it into the system, giving privileged access.

          It is extremely difficult to find such a loophole (but who would ever think of disassembling machine code if there are source codes?), But it is still possible. Having made corrections to the source code of the compiler, you have to compile it with the same compiler. And why, Thompson thought, not to teach the compiler to recognize himself and to make new changes in the second generation? If there is no known “clean” compiler, the situation becomes hopeless (well, do not patch the program in machine code).


          That is, taking into account developments on optimizing compilers and antiviruses (areas where automatic analysis of the program’s work by its code is actively used) - now it is easier to implement this.
          1. SergeBS
            SergeBS 30 May 2016 01: 10
            0
            Quote: solo.oboroten
            That is, taking into account developments on optimizing compilers and antiviruses (areas where automatic analysis of the program’s work by its code is actively used) - now it is easier to implement this.

            Well yes. Milo, have you heard about the SIGNATURES of malicious code?
            It is, of course, "easier" to pour sand into the bearings of some diesel engine so that the diesel engine is covered. Only until you get to these bearings will your horse die a hundred times from poisoned oats.
            1. solo.oboroten
              solo.oboroten 31 May 2016 08: 40
              0
              1000 will go round - 1001st will get (or 2010th, it doesn’t matter)) ...

              I am not saying that this kind of attack is a "silver bullet". But this is another attack vector to consider. And which is quite easily shut up by organizational methods (if there is political will, of course).
  • Asadullah
    Asadullah 22 May 2016 21: 19
    +3
    And the fact that the author wrote in this sense is nonsense.


    What the author wrote is complete nonsense in every sense. Among which there is nonsense with supplies, for example, it was directly touched about two cabinets in Zelenograd, and about the Ministry of Industry and Trade, in general, is epic. The author got out of what refrigerator?

    Once again, for lovers of domestic idiocy, with one silicon wafer of 12 inches, one and a half thousand crystals can be cut. There are sixty plates in a box, that is, a minimum lot. Multiply. Why do people write and are too lazy to look for information about what they write? Only from the fact that we need an article in which the main motive is ** polymers? Only the summary is that - you cannot **, do not torment a half-pop.
  • dauria
    dauria 22 May 2016 22: 31
    0
    I will say: the program can be checked for bookmarks


    Only man-hours for this will take more than the development of its own similar. In between, disassemble and look through the steps well, for example, a simple ancient AVRASM for microcontroller firmware. Better yet, take a look how many man hours went into Windows XP.
    In one of the author's rights, the Americans invested money and labor in this business, but we had a "party".
    1. aiw
      aiw 22 May 2016 22: 35
      0
      Actually, no, actually, all sorts of automatic / semi-automatic utilities do such checks.
    2. SergeBS
      SergeBS 23 May 2016 07: 06
      0
      Quote: "It will only take more man-hours to do this than to develop a similar one."
      Figurines. At one time, the "most democratic" country took up arms against PGP for a very simple reason - there are no "fox loopholes" for the NSA. It is now GPG. The same genitals, only in profile. smile
      And with compilers it's even easier - there is FreeWare GCC (which is C for everything from Intel to microcontrollers) and others, like FreePascal, FreeDelphi (like Lasarus), "charge" your compiler with "bookmarks" - you will fly NAFIG out of the market.
  • Nitarius
    Nitarius 23 May 2016 06: 17
    -1
    I will answer as a SPECIALIST ... bookmarks at the level of not only the assembler but also at the level of some other CODES ... they themselves generated codes from the "bully" and very much .. I tell you .. very interesting things are given out by current processors .. I assure you .. .the one who creates .. FAR LOOKING FOR THE FUTURE! there such things take off .. that it is possible to drive all the PROCESSORS with the help of undeclared codes into such things .... that even God cannot bring him back to life later!
  • kvv157
    kvv157 25 May 2016 18: 08
    0
    "In the meantime, foreign compilers are still used in its development, and it is almost impossible to check for the absence of" unintended "functions."
    -NONSENSE
    "The first problem lies in the absence in Russia" of its own production of electronic components.
    "but there are no compiler programs with the help of which the software will be created" - everything is just the opposite.
  • Dimon19661
    Dimon19661 22 May 2016 16: 05
    +2
    A good article, the only bad thing is that all this is actually happening.
    1. smith7
      smith7 22 May 2016 16: 33
      +7
      Import substitution takes place in reality. This can not but rejoice. Another thing is that there are problems and many of them are very serious. For the most part, the problem is not in engineering and technology. The problem is in the heads of our leaders and businessmen. She will decide, though not tomorrow ... in ten years. I have no doubt.
  • Mihail55
    Mihail55 22 May 2016 16: 06
    0
    But this is OUR highest priority area - SPACE, then in everything else ... there are no words.
  • vvv-73
    vvv-73 22 May 2016 16: 09
    +4
    We seemed to have lines of 130 and 65 nanometers, purchased in Germany, after the withdrawal of AMD factories from there. Or after the conversion, I don’t remember exactly.
    1. Muvka
      Muvka 22 May 2016 16: 10
      +4
      Quote: vvv-73
      We seemed to have lines of 130 and 65 nanometers, purchased in Germany, after the withdrawal of AMD factories from there. Or after the conversion, I don’t remember exactly.

      Elbrus 90nm we are quite successfully riveted.
      1. vvv-73
        vvv-73 22 May 2016 16: 13
        +1
        Well, the fact is that, although using outdated technologies, we can do flint chips ourselves.
        1. Muvka
          Muvka 22 May 2016 16: 14
          +3
          Quote: vvv-73
          Well, the fact is that, although using outdated technologies, we can do flint chips ourselves.

          Well, at 90nm, it’s quite possible for space / military to rivet very adequate chips.
          1. vvv-73
            vvv-73 22 May 2016 16: 16
            +2
            I agree. There, high performance is not particularly needed.
        2. Cat man null
          Cat man null 22 May 2016 16: 38
          +3
          Quote: vvv-73
          flint chips we can do it ourselves

          What kind of chips ?? belay
          1. Felix
            Felix 22 May 2016 19: 02
            +3
            Quote: Cat Man Null
            What kind of chips ??


            Cast iron, Cat, cast iron))
            1. Asadullah
              Asadullah 22 May 2016 21: 29
              +2
              Cast iron, Cat, cast iron))


              This is for very literate. When unloading a carriage with chips.
          2. Vadim237
            Vadim237 22 May 2016 19: 36
            +1
            And solar panels based on Gallium Arsenide.
        3. Homo
          Homo 22 May 2016 17: 26
          +1
          Quote: vvv-73
          Well, the fact is that, although using outdated technologies, we can do flint chips ourselves.

          What is a "flint chip"? If a weapon, then a flintlock. If electronics, then a silicon crystal. wink
          1. vvv-73
            vvv-73 22 May 2016 17: 35
            +1
            This does not change the essence of what has been said, since this very silicon crystal is the basis of the chip. And even if you are meticulous, then this is not a crystal, but part of a silicon wafer.
  • Reserve officer
    Reserve officer 22 May 2016 16: 11
    +5
    A very relevant article. And I would spread these thoughts to all military products.
    I don’t know how it is now, but in my time in the 90-e years in the system of Mnomoshchemash there was a very serious military acceptance of domestic products coming to the assembly. There were cases when up to 90% of products were rejected, but there were no complaints against the rest.
    1. Vladimir61
      Vladimir61 22 May 2016 16: 50
      +6
      Quote: Reserve officer
      There have been cases when up to 90% of products were rejected
      Yes, with the logo in the form of a "star" on the radio elements, there were no design problems.
    2. Homo
      Homo 22 May 2016 17: 35
      +6
      Quote: Reserve officer
      There were cases when up to 90% of products were rejected, but there were no complaints against the rest.

      Do you know the culling system? Where did such high interest come from? I can share it from personal experience. A batch of 10 transistors arrived. At random they take 000 pieces from different packages. If out of 10 pieces taken, the percentage of failed tests is higher than 10%, and this is more than 25 pieces, then all 2 do not go into production! But this does not mean that all 10 defects, just tolerances in the defense industry are much lower than in household appliances. From these transistors, excellent household appliances were obtained. hi
  • avvg
    avvg 22 May 2016 16: 12
    +1
    While supply to foreign suppliers is not prohibited, it will continue.
  • Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 22 May 2016 16: 12
    +19
    The author burns! He is unaware that silicon is grown in round columns, and the whole column, with the exception of Tails, is stone silicon. The tails are cut off immediately, and the silicon is checked for quality - easy, well-developed hardware and techniques. Radiation-resistant microcircuits (and in general the element base) differs from the usual one, it is usually KSDI or KNS. And here we have the championship! The Sapphire plant is deployed in Stavropol, which makes the basis for such microcircuits not only for us, but also recognized in the world! And money was spent on this in due time, and we are doing the element base for satellites. She is very dear. Because it is small-scale. And what can you do about it. The Shirpotrebovskys do not live in space.
    1. Bayonet
      Bayonet 22 May 2016 17: 00
      +4
      Quote: Mountain Shooter
      ! He doesn’t know that silicon is grown in round columns.

      The grown single crystal of silicon. Then cut into discs.
  • pl675
    pl675 22 May 2016 16: 16
    +6
    So far, import substitution in the space industry is more like a lame mare with three legs and a crutch. If these problems do not go even to the stage of active practical discussions, the domestic space will remain in a sensitive dependence on foreign developments

    if you really look at the situation, then this is a common problem that applies not only to space.
    the list of gaps is actually huge, starting with agriculture, and ending with the introduction of a stream of modern technology.
    one-time breakthroughs in some separately taken branches do not improve the general background of the economic component.
    I do not want to say that everything is lost. you need to work, which is extremely difficult to do in conditions of total bureaucracy and corruption, the fight against which remains in the plane of demagogy.
    1. yuriy55
      yuriy55 22 May 2016 17: 08
      +4
      Quote: pl675
      if you really look at the situation, then this is a common problem that applies not only to space ...


      But space fellow - this is something that is very clearly visible from the ground with the naked eye wink

      There is an interesting description of the socialist system in which the sweatshop exploitation of man by man is very negatively depicted. His principle: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his work," - very qualitatively analyzed and defined in nuances yes
      When a person engages in creative creative work - this is one thing. When he works only to ensure his existence (of his family) - this is different.
      That is the main problem! good
      Or are there still people with convincing evidence that capitalism is the highest stage in the development of human civilization? Maybe someone has a number of economic axioms of the perfection of market relations? Or will he assure (even me) that without speculative trends in the exchange and banking sectors, the development of the economy is impossible? fool
      stop It is enough that the laws, invented by someone very cunning, make it possible to live comfortably in a part of society, which is colloquially called parasites ...
      hi
    2. Alf
      Alf 22 May 2016 20: 14
      0
      Quote: pl675
      and corruption, the fight against which remains in the plane of demagogy.

      And he will remain there, for how can one fight with himself?
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Cat man null
    Cat man null 22 May 2016 16: 19
    +27
    The author is two. The article is a complete nonsense, designed for "victims of the exam." The author himself is such a "victim" yes

    Quote: Article
    The first problem lies in the absence in Russia of its own design programs (aka compilers), on the basis of which the development of software for integrated circuits (a variety of processors, RAM, storage devices, etc.)

    - the compiler is not a "constructor". A compiler is a "translator" from a high-level programming language into machine code, roughly speaking
    - a compiler for programming a processor chip (OP, memory) - this is something new in computer technology .. there is no such thing in nature, and it cannot be

    Quote: Article
    In this regard, the first question arises: how much can this software be trusted? After all, to declare that this designer program after the compilation (assembly) process does not “sew” some spurious software, spurious functions into the processor, nobody will take a 100% probability

    - does not "sew". Since there is no such operation - compiling "processor firmware"
    - and there are no "compilers" for embedded software of processors, by the way. Can not be.

    Quote: Article
    There are no high-quality silicon wafers for processors on the basis of which ERI is made in Russia - there are no corresponding technologies. As a rule, plates are bought abroad

    - gonevo

    The highest quality part of the plate is the middle. For example, it can be left after slicing and given to some more priority buyer, and the fact that the edges and where the quality is worse can already be sent to Russia. Accordingly, another question arises: is it possible to consider some detail as import-substituted when the bulk of this silicon is not made by us?

    - yeah .. like "you - tops, and me - roots" .. the author .. kill yourself against the wall ..
    - Is it possible to consider the part imported substituted if I hammered nails into it with a Chinese hammer? laughing

    Ufff ... I can no longer read or comment on this nonsense ..
    1. max15243
      max15243 22 May 2016 16: 44
      -1
      The author probably meant microcontrollers (simplified processors). I have not met domestic ones, I came across AVR. The software is foreign, now they are running mostly in C ++ (high-level language), it is possible in assembly (low-level language). But no one drives in "0" and "1" (which, in general, and understands "hardware") manually. Therefore, what is embedded in the microcontroller cannot be checked.
      1. Cat man null
        Cat man null 22 May 2016 16: 54
        +3
        Quote: max15243
        The author probably meant microcontrollers (simplified processors)

        - I know what a microcontroller is
        - and the author didn’t even hear such a word - I’m ready to argue
        - there it is about the "software of integrated circuits (various processors, RAM, storage devices, etc.)"
        - what kind of "microcontrollers"? There, the author of the RAM was going to program fellow
      2. Sunseich
        Sunseich 23 May 2016 09: 55
        +1
        I am writing for ABP, before that I felt a little PIC, for the sake of interest - x51
        Assm, Pascal, BASIC (I teach children in a circle).
        what is poured into the memory of the MK is first saved to a file, and only then to work))
        checked elementary. It is enough either to measure the operating time of the necessary fragments, or to look at the disassembler
        so do not write nonsense without knowing the process))

        here, read what I'm telling the children :) http://ugolok-mastera.ru/MK-teoriya.htm#12
    2. 1goose3
      1goose3 22 May 2016 16: 50
      +1
      God grant that it is as you say. In these matters, to put it mildly, I am not an oak tree. Your comment is shy but optimistic. hi
      1. Cat man null
        Cat man null 22 May 2016 17: 00
        +7
        Quote: 1goose3
        God grant that it is as you say

        - I only say that the author is a hat without borders. And so it is laughing
        - that there are no problems with import substitution of the element base - I am not saying. Since they are, and there are many
        - with software - it's better, because programs for our "hardware" are developed in the same place where the "hardware" itself, and the "compiler that pushes bookmarks" is nonsense
        - since the compiler of a programming language is used wherever programs are written in that language only
        - and the compiler cannot know why this program is written
        - and the compiler certainly does not know anything about the device that this program will control

        Tell me, on what basis and at what point should the compiler decide that it needs to "stick a bookmark"? And to which place and which one (I repeat - he knows nothing about the device for which the program is intended) ..

        In general .. the author is sorry request
    3. region58
      region58 22 May 2016 18: 23
      +1
      Quote: Cat Man Null
      Ufff ... I can no longer read or comment on this nonsense ..

      That's right... yes https://geektimes.ru/post/254138/ По ссылке можно почитать что и где у нас производится для космоса. Написано вполне доступным языком для непрофессионалов. Статья 2014 года, но, как из неё следует, даже на то время то что нужно делалось вполне на уровне.
      About compilers - yes, no comments ...
    4. Asadullah
      Asadullah 22 May 2016 21: 32
      +2
      Ufff ... I can no longer read or comment on this nonsense


      I agree. The question is, how does he appear? IMHO, not very useful resource.
    5. maxvik
      maxvik 22 May 2016 22: 25
      0
      Sorry, I do not agree with you. Perhaps the author suffers from the wording, but

      1. We have problems with FPGAs and software for developing firmware for them. VZPP and KTTS Electronics is a story with geography. Expensive, long and outdated.

      2. With microcontrollers a little better. For example, Milander, offers some kind of software. But it is not entirely domestic.

      3. From what I know about the OS - use different Linux, such as Asters. Spit, swear, but saw. With appropriate efficiency.

      4. Import substitution for space, for me personally, smacks of divorce. As far as I understand, the protection of microcircuits from penetrating radiation depends on the size of transistors on a chip. The larger the transistor, the longer it will degrade under radiation. Thus, for a stable elemental base, it is possible to use industries with large toponorms, i.e. outdated ones.

      5. To eliminate dependence on the West, you need to make general-purpose microcircuits, well, or at least just with military acceptance, then you can go into large series. And the supplier of large serial orders can sideways deal with radiation-resistant electronic components. Xilinx example. And now the RS485 driver with the VP from milander is much more expensive than the western counterpart with the military index, even at the current rate cut.

      6. Well, the view is wider on domestic software. Where are our software systems, such as AutoCAD, Inventor, Engineering, etc. for design, strength and thermal calculations. There are no programs for modeling electrodynamic systems, electronic components and circuits of the complex type from ANSYS. You can continue for a long time.

      The problem exists, here the author is right.
      1. aiw
        aiw 22 May 2016 22: 33
        0
        According to claim 6 - is it needed, is this ANSIS something? When something needs to be calculated, they communicate in the same IPM and there they consider it is much more useless than from an engineer sitting with a mouse in his right hand.
        1. maxvik
          maxvik 23 May 2016 17: 57
          0
          And what does it mean to turn to IPM? Write a TK? And if changes in the design in the development process - TK correction and additional agreement? This is an endless process.
          What methods will IPM use: its own or will ANSYS run on its computer?
          I saw people spend years calculating a curved vibrator antenna using analytical methods. And if it is bent not by a parabola, but by a hyperbole, again it takes years.
          In the same ANSYS HFSS, such an antenna of arbitrary configuration can be calculated in half an hour. Made changes - half an hour is the result. Several iterations, analysis, correction, finished antenna. Well, roughly speaking)).
          The same situation with heat and durability.
          The whole world uses it quickly and universally. This is CAD / CAE / CAM or CAD. It seems that our high-level managers say that it’s good.
      2. region58
        region58 22 May 2016 23: 19
        0
        Quote: maxvik
        chip protection from penetrating radiation depends on the size of transistors on a chip

        Yeah, RAD750, which is on the Curiosity rover - 150 nM technology. Well, the tricks are different ... like ring transistors ...
        1. maxvik
          maxvik 23 May 2016 18: 03
          0
          So for sure, they did it at 250nM.
  • Leksandrych
    Leksandrych 22 May 2016 16: 23
    +4
    Wherever you look, wherever there are "failures", Manturov's ears stick out everywhere. How many years has he ruined the domestic aircraft industry, space, etc. and the like. But he still sits in his Ministry of Industry and Trade and no forces can drive him out.
  • Denis Obukhov
    Denis Obukhov 22 May 2016 16: 33
    +4
    How many useful things will Russia produce due to a sharp cooling in relations with the West and Ukraine. And it's good that this is for a long time! And as for the difficulties ... There is a saying:
  • avg-mgn
    avg-mgn 22 May 2016 16: 34
    +5
    The article is another scarecrow-oralka, although it is difficult to disagree with certain points. Question to the author: in what time, do you think, it is possible to develop a technology, build production and master the production of products of the space industry so needed? We are under the 2 year, and what is your answer? It is necessary unconditionally also yesterday, but for now it is necessary to survive on the fact that we are building by crumbs, and under such conditions, reasonable import is not a bad option. Not yet evening.
    1. Shadowcat
      Shadowcat 22 May 2016 18: 49
      +1
      For many of them in 2 hours. For the first, they would have shot the "thieving bourgeois".
      But for some reason they forget that in order to run any distance faster and without preparation in less time, you have to tear the veins (as the USSR did for example in 30-41xx) or do it gently, but the time will not differ much (if at all it will not go to plus)
  • iz odessy
    iz odessy 22 May 2016 16: 44
    +1
    nice to read and comments too.
  • sabakina
    sabakina 22 May 2016 16: 50
    +4
    According to the article, I didn’t understand. And on my own I will say:
    We had the Kostroma Electromechanical Plant, which riveted microelectronics for rockets, we had the Kostroma Mechanical Plant, which made training rockets. Now plywood is riveted on the fur. Was there was ... My mother worked on electric machines. Once I brought screws (defective) in a rag, which I check under a microscope .... I was crazy about such "screws" ...
  • Sergey333
    Sergey333 22 May 2016 16: 51
    +1
    Production for space is piece-wise, and will remain so for the foreseeable future, so import substitution is 100% physically impossible here. The reason is simple - the volume of production is very small (in pieces), and all the best that is invented on the planet must be applied.
  • Verdun
    Verdun 22 May 2016 16: 52
    0
    Quote: Muvka
    As a semi-programmer I’ll say: the program can be checked for bookmarks. And the fact that the author wrote in this sense is nonsense.

    I read this kind of comments and realized that it would hardly be possible to wait for competent comments on the article. At the same time, the quality of the article itself cannot be assessed on my own, and my acquaintance who did this at a serious level is forever "out of the access zone" But I know for sure - the requirements of military electronics are too different from the requirements for filling home PCs for any homebrew specialist to easily talk about it. As for the software developed by many modern programmers, I will say one thing - ugly products of mediocre programming. The guys got used to the fact that they have gigabytes of memory and powerful processors at their disposal, so they get even relatively simple programs - unreasonably large and requiring unjustifiably large hardware resources ... But the fact that we do not produce a worthy element base for the space industry - this is the same fact as the fact that the earth revolves around the sun.
    1. V.ic
      V.ic 22 May 2016 17: 22
      +3
      Quote: Verdun
      The guys got used to the fact that they have gigabytes of memory and powerful processors at their disposal, so they even get relatively simple programs - unreasonably large size and requiring unreasonably large resources of iron ...

      I believe! In "ZX-SPECTRUM", in my opinion, there was only 16 KB of RAM, but level 5 chess could be played. True, at the 7th level it took up to 20 minutes per move, but it worked!
    2. aiw
      aiw 22 May 2016 20: 22
      +2
      Satya is enchanting nonsense, the author constantly confuses concepts. Competently comment enchanting nonsense I do not consider it necessary.
  • DPN
    DPN 22 May 2016 17: 19
    +2
    the question is, where is Chubais with NANO technologies and billions from Russian taxpayers.
    1. Verdun
      Verdun 22 May 2016 21: 52
      0
      and where is Chubais with nano technology
      You do not touch Anatoly Borisovich in the bust. There, he was shown here the other day. So clearly said a man - we have up to ... a lot of money! And he’s doing fine with nanotechnology.))
  • max15243
    max15243 22 May 2016 17: 25
    +3
    The author of the article is not accurate in terminology, but the essence of this problem does not change. Any electronic device that performs on-off (automation) of something can either be developed in two ways:
    1. on logical circuits (and, or, not, multiplexers, demultiplexers), i.e., hardware. This approach is outdated (large dimensions, it is proctically impossible to upgrade the device).
    2. on microcontrollers (MK) -all the same logic elements, but they are programmed and sewn into the MK. Pros: you can repeatedly reflash MK, create any configuration of logical functions and change during development.
    Now it is used everywhere-security, fire alarms, various automatic systems, etc.
    Since MKs themselves are produced abroad, the software for firmware MK is foreign. So there is a problem and in my opinion is very serious.
    1. Genry
      Genry 22 May 2016 17: 46
      0
      You are not an electronic engineer!
      What nonsense are you talking about ??!
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. max15243
        max15243 22 May 2016 18: 11
        0
        No, not an electronic engineer, but an automated systems engineer. And what seemed to you nonsense?
        1. Genry
          Genry 22 May 2016 18: 49
          +4
          You, apparently, wrote off the essay from your son from the electronics club. And with errors. Well, the logic in microcontrollers is not programmed. There is software processing (the program is written by the developer and does not buy abroad). You can lay your own logic in the FPGA (programmable logic integrated circuit, FPGA).
          And your fire and other alarms is the level of a technician (amateur) and not an engineer. Math training is not needed.
          1. max15243
            max15243 22 May 2016 19: 17
            0
            The program is written by the developer, on his knee or something. He writes in the "development environment" (for MK AVR-AVR Studio) and this "environment" was developed abroad. In the most developing program, you can set any logic. You can create a lot of "development environments" in graphic editors and prescribe.
            1. Genry
              Genry 22 May 2016 19: 32
              +1
              And how does the development environment relate to the program that you implement in your development? This is the machine on which you produce your part and it will not fly into space.
              1. max15243
                max15243 22 May 2016 20: 31
                -1
                Sorry, do you even understand what this is about. The essence of the problem is a program is written (for example, in the C ++ programming language), then it is translated by the compiler into the machine language of zeros and ones, and then it is written to the controller that will control the various components. So at the stage of translation from one language to another it is not possible to keep track of whether everything is recorded correctly in MK.
                1. aiw
                  aiw 22 May 2016 20: 38
                  +1
                  Ghm ... actually these things are compiled by an open source compiler. There are offices in the Russian Federation checking software for bookmarks. Even some kind of Windows was certified, although under Windows such wzunzhevafly do not work - completely Linux.
          2. Sunseich
            Sunseich 23 May 2016 10: 01
            0
            don't disgrace the circles! )))
            I do not give such garbage to children)))
  • Putinets
    Putinets 22 May 2016 17: 32
    +3
    Quote: kuz363
    The brains of many Russian programmers who know all the weaknesses of Russian programs have leaked to the west

    Nonsense. As the father of such a programmer, I will say that even without Russian brains in the west, there are enough of my brains-programmers. And very highly qualified. If someone left, then this is a single piece brain, which was specially hunted for. The bulk is not needed by anyone. I wonder who then programs Caliber and Sarmatians, if there are no brains? Or are these missiles like shells? Without a computer component?
    1. Eragon
      Eragon 22 May 2016 18: 26
      +4
      Quote: Putin
      I wonder who then programs Caliber and Sarmatians, if there are no brains? Or are these missiles like shells? Without a computer component?

      I don’t know about Caliber and Sarmatians, but my fellow programmers (I myself work with hardware) decided to see what kind of "intelligence" is there in one military piece of iron. So, leave alone programming languages, compilers and various operating systems in general. The program is written exactly in machine code in the very "0" and "1", and refers directly to the processor, by the way, not Intel's.
  • zoknyay82
    zoknyay82 22 May 2016 17: 37
    0
    Quote: Freeman
    Muvka RU Today, 16:04 PM
    As a semi-programmer I’ll say: the program can be checked for bookmarks. And what the author wrote in this sense is rubbish


    If so, could you check for "bookmarks and spyware" in Windows 10? It would be interesting to know your opinion. hi

    There are optimizers successfully killing spy functions 10 and. For something tricky there is another with a screw, etc. :-)
    1. Genry
      Genry 22 May 2016 17: 51
      +1
      Quote: zoknyay82
      There are optimizers successfully killing spy functions 10 and. For something tricky there is another with a screw, etc. :-)

      It only seems to you. You will never scoop up all traffic, let alone encrypted ...
    2. Verdun
      Verdun 22 May 2016 17: 56
      +2
      Quote: zoknyay82

      There are optimizers successfully killing spy functions 10 and. For something tricky there is another with a screw, etc. :-)

      Can I find out where Windows is from in rockets? What are you talking about?
  • AKsvlad047
    AKsvlad047 22 May 2016 17: 52
    0
    All these are consequences, and the reason that we are now living under kapmtalizm and until these creatures will not give money at once and a lot of anything does not budge and you can collect as much as you like, decide, scold or nothing will change !!! This type of system is not promising !!!! There will be no money for space, fundamental science, medicine (you see how the whole country takes off on operations for children on TV) never when !!!! They officially in print say that 1% of the population owns everything in Russia! For themselves, they do the laws, all according to the residual principle, so as not to complain !!!
  • Indifferent
    Indifferent 22 May 2016 17: 57
    +1
    It's a shame when the author is not in the subject, but writes his thoughts, taken partly from rumors, partly from the ceiling. We have everything for creating electronic components. And the shots were still there and the equipment was there. Another thing is that we all do too small series, and this is too expensive!
    The government is to blame. But it is largely to blame for us! Until we are replaced by competent specialists, we will be tormented. There is always the temptation to buy over a hill 10 times cheaper than doing your own.
  • Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 22 May 2016 17: 59
    +2
    Randomly, I'm a little up to date. The first - space microcircuits - are radiation resistant, are made according to special non-consumer goods technologies, and according to large topological standards of -250 nm, no less. We have always had such technologies. Well, KNS - silicon on sapphire - we always did. I will not say who does where and where - this is chipboard, but I will give one trick to the ladies - there is such a production in Sarov. There are both in Moscow and in Penza. The seriality is low, therefore, performance is required is not very large. And radiation-resistant microcircuits have never been sold to us. Neither the States nor Europe.
    And China is China. Not very well they own these technologies.
    1. Verdun
      Verdun 22 May 2016 18: 18
      0
      Quote: Mountain Shooter
      And China is China. Not very well they own these technologies.

      And that is why the "crazy Chinese" are offering Russia an exchange of electronic component technology in exchange for rocket engine technology?
  • then
    then 22 May 2016 18: 06
    +3
    It seems that the author is completely unfamiliar with the programming, debugging, and verification technologies. But I heard a jingle. So you can agree that the Russian RD-180 gives American satellites undocumented functionality. Knowing not by hearsay, everything is normal with our companions, our guys know about bookmarks and the places where they are. And these conversations are conducted by otherworldly people in order to receive state funding.
  • Cat man null
    Cat man null 22 May 2016 18: 29
    +1
    Quote: Article
    After all, to declare that this designer program after the compilation (assembly) process does not “sew” some spurious software, spurious functions into the processor, nobody will take a 100% probability

    I am interested in another question:

    - let's say this is our satellite
    - the computer is on the satellite
    - there is a "bookmark" in the computer (attention!). Software, hardware - yes, do not care

    Question: who and how activates this bookmark, if it is known that:

    - all communication with the satellite goes through the MCC
    - the parameters of this connection are unknown to the "enemy" and the connection is most likely .. not easy?

    Who and how will give the command to activate the "bookmark"? Timer activation - do not offer wink
    1. Verdun
      Verdun 22 May 2016 22: 55
      0

      Who and how will give the command to activate the "bookmark"? Timer activation - do not offer
      Do you completely exclude activation after passing a specific command entered by the consumer? In addition, if there is a communication interface, then you can connect to this interface, and if you can connect, then what is the problem of giving an activation command?
      1. Cat man null
        Cat man null 22 May 2016 23: 29
        +2
        Quote: Verdun
        Do you completely exclude activation after passing a specific command entered by the consumer?

        - no, of course. Only this assumes that the developer of the "bookmark" knows that such a command will definitely be entered .. and how, sorry, does he know this?

        Quote: Verdun
        if there is a communication interface, then you can connect to this interface

        - e-uh ... let's make it easier .. interface, interface .. I can swear too .. wink
        - there is a radio channel (in any other way), through which satellite control commands are transmitted from the MCC to the satellite
        - these commands are given by a smart satellite to a computer standing on it
        - the computer executes the command, and forces the satellite to do what it was asked to do from the MCC (blink a flashlight, for example)

        So here. The radio channel, of course, is in every way protected. Encryption there, and others .. ZAS laughing

        The question is, who and how can:

        - get into it (the channel) (not theoretically, but practically)
        - decrypt
        - and send your "malicious" command?

        To me personally, all this seems to be .. somewhat difficult ..
        1. Verdun
          Verdun 23 May 2016 09: 47
          0
          To me personally, all this seems .. somewhat difficult.
          Here, too, it seemed difficult for me to intercept the control of the central lock, and, as a result, hack, if I am not mistaken, the Porsche Panamera through the bluetooth interface of the brake pad wear sensor. However, there is ...
  • gadugik
    gadugik 22 May 2016 18: 32
    -1
    Quote: indifferent
    The government is to blame.

    I also think so the mode itself is good, and it doesn’t laughing
  • kolobok63
    kolobok63 22 May 2016 18: 44
    +5
    Author Vladimir Manokhin
    The author is clearly not in the subject request Aplomb above the roof laughing I got the opinion that the author is delighted with his own opus! I saw a touch of gloating. This is not very good! hi
  • ODERVIT
    ODERVIT 22 May 2016 18: 53
    +1
    Lame mare? So what to expect when the sanctions are lifted. Nothing, limp, straighten.
  • cat hippopotamus
    cat hippopotamus 22 May 2016 19: 04
    +1
    Component parts of electronic equipment is the most painful topic in our industry, in the prosperous years of the USSR, we made our own components. And with a big stretch, the whole marriage went to the cabins and better components to the military commissar. Since the 90s, we lost this industry and ate some old stocks for some time. But at that time, technology spurred ahead and we were hopelessly behind. Today, electronics plays an important part of all technology and we are doomed to lag if we do not take up the production of our components.
  • Felix
    Felix 22 May 2016 19: 07
    +6
    In general, the author spun a lot, and almost everything is not the case.
    Although notably amused, and compilers who gut the code, and cunning Chinese who manage to insert a bookmark into the crystal template ...
    Colleagues, we were once again considered fools hi
    1. cherkas.oe
      cherkas.oe 22 May 2016 22: 08
      +1
      Quote: Felix
      Colleagues, we were once again considered fools

      But how many smart people have gathered? If I carefully read the entire branch during the night, I’ll get the third higher education. fellow
  • iouris
    iouris 22 May 2016 19: 20
    +1
    Since the structure of the Ministry of Industry and Trade has such a body as FATR (ROSSTANDART), the Ministry of Industry and Trade is an administrative body of the WTO. And space is national security. Production for national security purposes should be established bypassing the WTO and the Ministry of Industry and Trade. Otherwise, the components will be stupidly purchased in China. Someone Rogozin is responsible for this direction. And you have to ask him. He has a tie.
    1. cherkas.oe
      cherkas.oe 22 May 2016 22: 12
      0
      Quote: iouris
      He has a tie.

      Yeah, if cho, there will be something to hang on, after another remark of GDP wink
      1. iouris
        iouris 23 May 2016 01: 24
        0
        Well that's too much. He, in fact, hinted that a tie is a completely edible thing (though high in the mountains - not in our area ...).
  • Damask
    Damask 22 May 2016 19: 21
    +1
    One thing can be said, if everything is digitized, and even with the help of imported equipment and components, tied to a global network, the time will come and arrange a collapse for Russia, cut down nuclear power plants and hydroelectric power stations, bank cards and dictate their terms
    1. Cat man null
      Cat man null 22 May 2016 19: 34
      +3
      Quote: Damask
      One thing can be said, if everything is digitized, and even with the help of imported equipment and components, tied to a global network, the time will come and arrange a collapse for Russia, cut down nuclear power plants and hydroelectric power stations, bank cards and dictate their terms

      I had a bit of work for Roskosmos, and so:

      - there is no internet in the office. From the word "absolutely"
      - there is no external mail either, as a result

      So not everything is so deplorable laughing
      1. Verdun
        Verdun 22 May 2016 20: 27
        -2
        I had a bit of work for Roskosmos, and so:

        - there is no internet in the office. From the word "absolutely"
        - there is no external mail either, as a result

        So not everything is so deplorable
        You just apparently are not very aware that your actions on the PC can be tracked by the change in the voltage in the power supply, by the flickering of the screen of your computer ...
        1. aiw
          aiw 22 May 2016 20: 35
          0
          It can and can be tracked (if the room is not equipped in a special way), but how to put a bookmark?
        2. Cat man null
          Cat man null 22 May 2016 20: 45
          +1
          Quote: Verdun
          You just apparently are not very aware that your actions on the PC can be tracked by the change in the voltage in the power supply, by the flickering of the screen of your computer ...

          Everything is possible, the question is why? I didn’t do anything very secret there.

          Where there was something really secret - there were probably special rooms .. I wasn’t there, I don’t need it ..

          The less I know, the less I will subsequently have to deny (c)

          By the way, it is curious how you will determine "by voltage change":

          - hefty office (square kilometer, approximately, territory)
          - the territory is protected
          - Well, let's say - you are connected to a cable that pumps electricity to this entire office (which is already doubtful, by the way)
          - and what are you .. determine? request
          1. Verdun
            Verdun 22 May 2016 20: 58
            0
            Quote: Cat Man Null
            - and what are you .. determine?

            I’m definitely not an expert in the field of electronic intelligence. But for some reason, measures are being taken in serious offices to disguise electricity consumption, monitors and entire rooms are being screened? what
            1. aiw
              aiw 22 May 2016 21: 01
              0
              Point of a tip same. And in the era of CRT, just by the light it was possible to read a picture (if you catch a scan).

              But how can this be used for bookmarking?
              1. Verdun
                Verdun 22 May 2016 21: 14
                0
                Quote: aiw
                But how can this be used for bookmarking?

                Personally, I did not say a word about software bookmarks. But the bookmark in the element base, which allows, if necessary, to intercept control, is quite real. Moreover, sometimes hackers intercept this management without any bookmarks.
                1. aiw
                  aiw 22 May 2016 22: 18
                  0
                  To exclude bookmarks, elbrus-builders just make their own jelly designs, at the same time realizing some interesting ideas.

                  Well, in order to intercept control, the machine must be online as a mine - the corresponding organizations have their own networks;

                  Although there is a story that, thanks to the bookmarks, the French ruined the centrifuges delivered to the Iranians for the separation of uranium isotopes - but with the same success the Persians themselves could hit them screwed up with control.
                  1. Vadim237
                    Vadim237 22 May 2016 23: 59
                    0
                    The bookmark is easy to find during general diagnostics or during parsing - no company in the world will risk its reputation.
              2. iouris
                iouris 22 May 2016 21: 19
                0
                You just have to do nothing for 25 years and no one will track anything.
                These fears have been living since the time when, in the year 1975, the French allegedly deciphered the parameters of the five-year plan in approximately the same way. After that, even on flight simulators, power was supplied through an electric machine converter 3ph 380V to 3ph 380V.
        3. Muvka
          Muvka 22 May 2016 21: 58
          +1
          Quote: Verdun
          I had a bit of work for Roskosmos, and so:

          - there is no internet in the office. From the word "absolutely"
          - there is no external mail either, as a result

          So not everything is so deplorable
          You just apparently are not very aware that your actions on the PC can be tracked by the change in the voltage in the power supply, by the flickering of the screen of your computer ...

          By flickering, something can and can be determined, but even if you imagine that there is only 1 computer on the wire, you can only determine by the voltage change whether you are working or just sitting in the browser. No specifics.
        4. cherkas.oe
          cherkas.oe 22 May 2016 22: 23
          +1
          Quote: Verdun
          by changing the voltage in the power supply, by flickering the screen of your computer ..

          Well, you need to connect to the same outlet, but there are curtains and blinds to flicker, and the whole machine, with tinted windows under the windows of the office, is not an option, but a horizontal scan in modern monitors that fonts for a kilometer net. So you are flying amiable.
        5. Vadim237
          Vadim237 22 May 2016 23: 53
          0
          Our actions on the PC can be tracked, but the actions on the PC - Strategic Missile Forces, Roscosmos, and the rest cannot be tracked - the connection there is completely closed - without access to the Internet.
  • Berkut24
    Berkut24 22 May 2016 19: 25
    +1
    All the problems of such projects lie in the blurring of the goals and timing of the project, the dark organizational structure and the principle of give money - we will try something and someday ...
    Therefore, it turns out as always. It seems like they found money and put in good people, and then it turns out that the project is in a bad shape and it seems like there is no one to shoot. Is it possible to put the extreme as thieves, and after that the case still does not move, even if you still give money.
    Before you put things in order in the industry, you need to sort out the mess in the heads of "effective managers". Grandpa Stalin knew how to ask and bring projects to the end.
  • Verteidiger
    Verteidiger 22 May 2016 19: 28
    +2
    If you put the development environment for the microcontroller on your computer, then maybe it will and where it will send. About bookmarks in the stitched stone itself, so this is unlikely. there are debuggers, disassemblers. Everything can be checked by bits. Any program for MK can be written on asme. The best tool. Compilers C is for lazy people)) I think the lack of software for domestic iron is not relevant. Just domestic stones in nature do not exist. So, there’s nothing to write on and for what. Theseus was dead. ARMs in Zelenograd have prohibitive prices and prohibitive glitches. For the KR580VM80 made in the USSR, they write on acme or in machine codes. They would make the stones normal for reasonable money - there would also be development tools .. But the observation was correct - where is this nanist Chubais with his technologies.
    1. Muvka
      Muvka 22 May 2016 22: 01
      +2
      Quote: Verteidiger
      If you put the development environment for the microcontroller on your computer, then maybe it will and where it will send. About bookmarks in the stitched stone itself, so this is unlikely. there are debuggers, disassemblers. Everything can be checked by bits. Any program for MK can be written on asme. The best tool. Compilers C is for lazy people)) I think the lack of software for domestic iron is not relevant. Just domestic stones in nature do not exist. So, there’s nothing to write on and for what. Theseus was dead. ARMs in Zelenograd have prohibitive prices and prohibitive glitches. For the KR580VM80 made in the USSR, they write on acme or in machine codes. They would make the stones normal for reasonable money - there would also be development tools .. But the observation was correct - where is this nanist Chubais with his technologies.

      I do not agree that we do not produce stones. Here you have even finished products - http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/71149/
      1. aiw
        aiw 22 May 2016 22: 11
        -1
        Only here is the production of chips in Taiwan and the price / quality ratio of this wunderwafer is not interesting at all.
        1. Muvka
          Muvka 22 May 2016 22: 20
          0
          Quote: aiw
          Only here is the production of chips in Taiwan and the price / quality ratio of this wunderwafer is not interesting at all.

          In Taiwan, Elbrus-8s is produced at 28 nm. And these systems are based on the Elbrus-4s processor, which is produced in our country, with 65 nm. I wrote above that they were only going to go over, but it turned out to be wrong. So they are going to master 45 nm. And these are already quite modern chips. Although 65 nm is a lag of 8-10 years, only ...
        2. Cat man null
          Cat man null 22 May 2016 22: 40
          0
          Quote: aiw
          Only here is the production of chips in Taiwan

          Well, on that "Taiwan" and Apple, and Intel in clients, and not only they request
          1. aiw
            aiw 22 May 2016 22: 41
            -1
            Actually, Americans keep critical productions in this area.
            1. Cat man null
              Cat man null 22 May 2016 22: 49
              +1
              Quote: aiw
              Actually, Americans keep critical production in this area

              Yes .. it’s good for them, they didn’t have our 90s ..

              Meet: the longest building in Moscow, which is occupied by the Research Center for Electronic Computing Technology (NITSEVT), is located at the address: Varshavskoye Shosse, 125

              The length of this "lying skyscraper" is almost 736 meters

              Amendment: not borrowed, but borrowed. The building is rented for offices .. aphid .. and such offices only in Moscow - not one dozen sad
              1. aiw
                aiw 22 May 2016 22: 55
                -1
                I am in the know, dropping by ;-)

                But not only the 90s are to blame for the fact that our VT is where it is. At one time, the leadership did a great stupidity, abandoning their developments in favor of copying.

                Well, as if for fat zero ones, it was quite possible to catch up and overtake Omerika in this area ... crying
      2. Verteidiger
        Verteidiger 22 May 2016 23: 10
        0
        So Elbrus does Taiwan. The price of this device is not interesting to your pocket even once. We do nothing at the PIC16F84 level for a reasonable price and comparable quality. STM for $ 10 crammed into one case mother-negro. Plus penny debuggers / programmers. It’s good that the topic was raised, but so far the comparison of our electronics with the West is a comparison of a fly and a Boeing .. The wines are not completely at the manufacturers. We have a country with oil and gas thinking and defective managers.
        1. Muvka
          Muvka 22 May 2016 23: 14
          0
          Quote: Verteidiger
          In Taiwan, Elbrus-8s is produced at 28 nm. And these systems are based on the Elbrus-4s processor, which is produced in our country, with 65 nm. I wrote above that they were only going to go over, but it turned out to be wrong. So they are going to master 45 nm. And these are already quite modern chips. Although 65 nm is a lag of 8-10 years, only ...

          I repeat for you again: In Taiwan, Elbrus-8s is produced at 28 nm. And these systems are based on the Elbrus-4s processor, which is produced in our country, with 65 nm. I wrote above that they were only going to go over, but it turned out to be wrong. So they are going to master 45 nm. And these are already quite modern chips. Although 65 nm is a lag of 8-10 years, only ...
          1. Vadim237
            Vadim237 23 May 2016 00: 05
            0
            The Baikal processor is going to be made using 22 nm technology.
  • Moskal 55
    Moskal 55 22 May 2016 19: 38
    0
    The article is actually talking about domestic software and microelectronics, and space is one of the industries where, to ensure safety, you need to have your own or a guarantee of purchase without "bookmarks". M. b. only special resistance exacerbates the situation, tk. industrial imported ICs are still available, and military (and even more so space) - already fig. With the compilers, which the author writes about at the beginning of the article, there is just no trouble, in comparison with microelectronics. Use open source software, like the GNU type, and it is unlikely that you will run into anything "made for you". But software for developing ICs (like Cadence) is much worse, here the only hope is that the executable code is the same for everyone, and the "bookmark" can be initialized only with the license code. With microelectronics, things are even worse. Domestic email a base that lags behind the foreign one by 15-20 years, but on which, at the very least, something can be snapped up in single copies (ADC, FPGA, it's not a single processor). I don't know about the CCD, maybe. there is one of the holes (far from the only one). There are also a lot of problems with our own design and further production of ICs. Or over the hill, or buy a line. "Machine tools" are their own ... In short, we have so far badly with domestic microelectronics, but before it was not at all.
    The moral from here?
    2. Articles of this kind should be written by specialists. The author is clearly not an electronic engineer, at least for the moment. But experts do not write, or do not write to VO. So in general, for raising the topic, the author respects.
    1.25 years ago we destroyed the USSR. They began to move towards merging with the West. Moreover, this merger can be entirely (Europe from Lisbon to Vladivostok), and in parts (Maidan in Russia, the collapse of Russia, the entry of pieces into Europe). It is on the latter option that the elites of Ukraine, Georgia and the Baltics are counting on. The current leadership, at least Putin, were clear supporters of the 1st option, but some Gref is clearly for the 2nd. And our ideology and economy (in particular, microelectronics) have already been sacrificed to this merger. And now our government is "at a crossroads." I don't want to give up the merger, and I don't want to fall apart either. You can even say harsher, not "at a crossroads", but "in a raskoryaku", but we have no other sane power elite.
    0. What to do? To unite, to influence what is happening in the right direction, to push the counter-elite out of its midst. In no case not Maidan. In 1917, Russia was not divided just because it was the 1st World War and the booze themselves. Now everything is wrong.
    In short, go to eot.su. Read, drive in, join.
    1. Genry
      Genry 22 May 2016 20: 15
      +2
      Quote: ь 55
      In short, go to eot.su

      Well, this is a complete scribe!
      Entanglement and departure from the truth in another world.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Cat man null
      Cat man null 22 May 2016 22: 08
      0
      Quote: ь 55
      In short, go to eot.su. Read, drive in, join

      Advertising on the site is prohibited .. wink
  • Mestny
    Mestny 22 May 2016 20: 10
    0
    Quote: cat hippo
    Since the 90s, we lost this industry and ate some old stocks for some time. But at that time, the technology rushed forward and we were hopelessly behind.

    As a lot involved in the repair of various kinds of equipment, both ours and not ours, I can say - we fell behind much earlier. It is enough to open any electronic household device, for example, a television set for production, for example, the beginning of the 80s - the difference is immediately visible even with the naked eye. In addition to the quality of installation, and the elemental base already seriously differed not for the better.
    And the reliability of Soviet consumer electronics is generally a separate song. It is because of the backward elemental base. By the way, we must pay tribute to the engineers of that time - they tried their best to make a device of the mid-60s level on the details of the 70-80s.
    And by the way, the backlog began tentatively in the late 60s. Consumer electronics up to this point is fully consistent with the world level - both in reliability and technology.
  • Fonmeg
    Fonmeg 22 May 2016 20: 14
    -1
    Over the past two years, the Russian Government has begun to realize the importance of re-creating the electronic industry in the country as one of the significant factors of independence, security and economic prosperity. One can argue about the effectiveness and possible results of the implementation of the adopted state program for the development of electronics, but the fact of an attempt to collect the wreckage of the enterprises of the once mighty MEP, MPP and the Ministry of Appliance and coordinate their activities to ensure the priority needs of defense and critical government programs deserves all praise.
    And there are a lot of problems to be solved. Moreover, many of them have remained since the days of the USSR, including a significant technological lag, which after 15 years of catastrophic reforms has turned into an abyss, which must be overcome by the current generation of Russian engineers and managers.
    Due to the massive destruction of the domestic electronic industry in the 1990s, the lag in the basic technologies for the production of electronic devices reached, according to a very optimistic estimate, 18-20 years with catastrophic losses in production capacities and qualified specialists.
    Of course, in this situation, Russia risks its future if serious efforts are not made to develop basic technologies for the development and production of electronic devices, without which no sphere of human activity can now do. Electronics is the “brain and nervous system” of all high-tech products in the industry and determines their quality parameters that directly affect competitiveness.
    The overall level of electronicization of civilian sectors of the economy and infrastructure of Russia is at the level of third world countries, which seriously reduces both labor productivity and quality of life.
    Therefore, the growth of an innovative economy and the improvement of the lives of our fellow citizens imply the massive introduction of the latest electronic information technologies in civilian sectors and public institutions, followed by the intensive development of basic electronics technologies as part of global progress.
    1. iouris
      iouris 22 May 2016 21: 19
      -2
      Do not expect. Time flows irreversibly. If you are behind, then you are forever behind.
  • Sergey956
    Sergey956 22 May 2016 21: 12
    0
    I agree with the author. It is not possible to quickly import substitution in space electronics. Lost years can only be made up for with huge investments in science and production. This should be started immediately, only after 10 years there will be an effect.
    1. Verteidiger
      Verteidiger 22 May 2016 23: 15
      0
      All is correct. But where to get the funds? It is necessary to take away from someone. Shuvalov said that the development of science is good, but funds for this should be sought outside the oil and gas sector.
    2. iouris
      iouris 23 May 2016 01: 27
      0
      Not. This step has already been skipped. You must either proceed to the development of the next technological structure, or wait for you to be buried.
  • avg-mgn
    avg-mgn 22 May 2016 21: 32
    0
    Quote: Verdun
    You just apparently are not very aware that your actions on the PC can be tracked by the change in the voltage in the power supply, by the flickering of the screen of your computer ...

    It’s in your kitchen that the neighbor will spy and listen to the bottle, while the design bureaus and production facilities are not allowed to leak. There is a clear regulation on conducting absolutely all operations and corresponding control (since the KGB of the USSR there have been no weakenings in this regard). Further: all technical means undergo a special check for surprises (the same applies to absolutely any software) and extraneous radiation. The premises certainly have proper processing and protection. And the windows through which you want to count the flicker are either absent either in the blinds and do not go out onto the street where you live. So do not play spies, it will not work.
    1. Verdun
      Verdun 22 May 2016 21: 48
      0
      and Design Bureau and Production of leaks are not allowed under any circumstances.
      Are you telling me, who worked in the design bureau and in production? Here I will probably disappoint you. Sometimes it seems that people in charge of electronic security live on Stone Age ideas. However, it is possible that they are so disguised as to mislead the enemy ...))
  • Sunseich
    Sunseich 22 May 2016 21: 38
    +2
    I could not resist
    Well, nonsense!
    I am self-taught in electronics, MK programming and for PC. But the author is even worse! he has everything in a bunch! are our developers so stupid that they don’t look at the disassembler code?

    Yes, only the lazy do not say about bookmarks in the process. Yes, the so-called microcode is poured in percent. Yes. It's real. Yes, scary stories about it walk on the network.
    but as an acquaintance, one way or another tied up in a military commissar, said: "we don’t care, we check it step by step. We put 10 meters under the ground - no signals from the outside will trigger the" terrible code ":)
    1. region58
      region58 22 May 2016 23: 05
      +1
      Quote: SanSeich
      I am self-taught in electronics, MK programming and for PC

      I have met a lot of self-taught people who will give odds to a university graduate, and even engineers in a design bureau. And, accordingly, on the contrary - the presence of a diploma is not evidence of the mind. In order not to look at the pieces of iron like a ram at a new gate, you constantly have to read something new, in one word - "study, study, and study again." So we are all to one degree or another self-taught, there is no other way.
  • iz odessy
    iz odessy 22 May 2016 22: 46
    +3
    conclusion of disputes - everyone and the author have little adequate information on the situation in Roscosmos, and this is good, it means that not everything is so stupid and hopeless. And besides the knowledgeable, I liked the logic "they sat down on the moon with 16 kilobytes of RAM" - the absolutely exact meaning that says "at the top", the critical essence is not in compilers, oh not in compilers
  • v.yegorov
    v.yegorov 22 May 2016 23: 03
    +1
    I read it carefully. A lot of nonsense in the article, a lot in the comments, but a lot in the comments and instructive, encouraging. I came to the conclusion: the horse does not limp, but
    too old, does not run fast - feed poorly; grooms and jockeys are competent people, but look to the side, due to low wages; the owners
    the stables are considering whether to buy or sleep. to finish the prize stallion, but
    while it’s only a dream - sellers and thieves demand money immeasurably. I'll have to, everything
    same, to develop their horse breeding, and this requires a lot of costs and time. And to
    quickly and without money, here we need Comrade Stalin and Comrade Beria. And we agree to pay
    such a price?
  • iliitchitch
    iliitchitch 22 May 2016 23: 33
    0
    Quote: alllll
    There are ridiculous amounts actually.


    It’s clear to Kose that the amounts are ridiculous, debt, apparently
    , hang some in front of "these", otherwise I do not understand some of the actions of the "iPhone" from the government. And why Uncle Vova puts up with it. Yes, that's just the markings on the dviguns, look at the stage of the PRODUCT assembly. A joint of their operator. The stump is clear, no one will advertise us. Why, you can jump high on a trampoline. We have sanctions, horrible. 404 is near, and then there are these ssanksomakers - give-give moving. Damn, my head is spinning from politics:
  • Olegi1
    Olegi1 23 May 2016 00: 36
    +1
    Quote: Muvka
    As a semi-programmer I’ll say: the program can be checked for bookmarks. And the fact that the author wrote in this sense is nonsense.


    As a programmer with experience in creating software for civil aviation, I will support you. Little familiar with software technology in the space industry. In general, the problem is not in the tools, but in the process. Which includes writing requirements - code - verification of both. In short, the problem is the lack of a process. If in detail - an article of 20 pages, at least ... We have an idea to contribute to the formation (or rather improvement, they have something home-grown) of the corresponding processes, if the "cosmonauts" agree, of course :). Separately: bookmarks in the software creation toolkit are complete nonsense. Since such a toolkit is being qualified, this, by the way, is a mandatory requirement in civil aviation. Now in the military, too, at least with Sukhoi.
  • SergeBS
    SergeBS 23 May 2016 02: 05
    +1
    As a "semi-nedoprogrammer" with OFFICIALLY 15 years of experience (as much is written in the labor "software engineer", in fact - "a little" more), "a little" I pinch the author for sensitive points about programming "bookmarks".
    Namely.

    About compilers AT ALL.

    The author apparently "compiled" on paper. Therefore, he does not know that any modern compiler has debugging facilities. Those. a programmer can, for example, put a "debug point" on ANY line of a high-level language program.
    And when the program reaches this point, then you can see EVERYTHING, down to the contents of the registers. Well, machine (and assembler) code as an option. :)
    Check EVERY line will be dreary, but not necessary.
    Because that’s not all. There are also profilers, i.e. means of determining how long a particular piece of code takes. A very useful thing, if necessary, is to speed up the program. If a section of the program takes longer than estimated, then this is an occasion to see what it is.
    And there is also a memory card - what functions have been devoured. Everything is GENERALLY simple. If some function takes up INCREDIBLY a lot of memory (and the "bookmark" should take up memory), then this is a reason to check it.
    Accordingly, it is simply pointless to cram "bookmarks" into the code generated by the compiler. Anyone who is not interested in this at all is not interested in the "mortgages" either. And who is interested - they will calculate and cut out.
    There are already 3 methods of calculation: by codes, by runtime, by the amount of occupied memory.

    And about Microcontrollers - even funnier. There, almost all compilers (I don’t know any exceptions, but I played with PIC, AVR, STM8XXXX, STM32XXXXX) are first translated into assembler code (look - I don’t want to, if you have an urge :)), and then they generate the so-called "firmware file"
    Moreover, in most cases, the microcontroller (MC) simply does not need some kind of operating system (OS). And those micro-OSs that are used in the "older" families of MK (with large memory, performance, etc.) are all "open source". To "bite out" unnecessary and vice versa add baubles such as built-in parsing of the network protocol stack, etc.
    And again, there are breakpoints, memory cards and EVEN means of emulating all the electronics on a PC (the most popular are Proteus, Altium Designer). Electronic models of popular MK, FPGAs, ICs of the so-called rigid (small) logic, indicators, DAC / ADC, etc. there are and you can make your own models.
    Again it turns out - try to push the "bookmark". It is calculated "at a time".
    Something like that.
    I'm not even talking about the fact that for this mythical bookmark to "trigger" - you need to give a signal to trigger it. Where to get it - there is a great secret.
    Hookhma like codes "friend or foe" of the consumer and the manufacturer of the wired additional code "friend" are not rolled here.

    As for "other people's plates" - as far as I know (I don't follow this - I keep an eye on it), ALL plates are made in China. There are no "silicon factories" in Europe. Well, most of Intel's processors are also made there, there is also Malaysia (also not the territory of the USA or Europe).
  • Vertin
    Vertin 23 May 2016 02: 41
    -2
    This raises the first question: how much can this software be trusted? After all, to declare that this design program after the compilation process (assembly) does not “stitch” any parasitic software, parasitic functions into the processor, no one will undertake with the 100% probability. We do not know how it will work, we can not look inside, they are all closed. Such concerns are often expressed at scientific conferences of the industry, so that they cannot be attributed to ephemeral "spy fantasies" - the suspicions are quite reasonable, but difficult to prove.

    Yes, the author is right, now programmers create programs on American software and they lay down the rules and algorithms and practically do not use domestic software like fortan or pascal. And the author emphasizes that any conversion from a programming language like JAVA or C # to a machine language, i.e. compilation of the developed campaign software algorithms. Perhaps there is disgusting and spyware. And what they come up with is not known?
  • blind
    blind 23 May 2016 05: 01
    0
    It is urgent to create and raise the production of element base for absolutely everything that is produced on the territory of Russia. only in this case, in mass production, the production of small-scale products will be compensated by the mass of another face value
  • Zomanus
    Zomanus 23 May 2016 05: 58
    0
    The article is interesting. After all, if you do not take the central elements of the schemes,
    then we carry peripherals from abroad, power electronics in particular.
    And as for me, it's better to get scared and check
    rather than assume that everything is under control.
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