Military Review

"Suvorov" who was not lucky ...

And it was like this, when discussing one of the articles here at VO, some readers in the comments suggested that, say, sailors like to believe in omens. Superstitious, they say, they are people. It is impossible to unequivocally say neither yes nor no, but this is what I found in the archive on this subject:

“As you know, in the pre-revolutionary common people in Russia, people used to believe in all kinds of rubbish. We saw the fateful effect of weather on historical events: “It was not so good that it turned purple and circled, and here the eggs went up in price!”, they explained to the female “mothers” that the Mother of God “was offended” and therefore left, and no longer intercedes. Well, let alone the evil influence of black cats crossing the road, or the trouble of spilled salt, you can’t even remember. It was not good to cut a finger, to see a tooth falling out of blood in a dream, to meet a journalist (!) On his way, well, and even then they thought that whatever you call a vessel, it would float. That is precisely why it has become fashionable for us to give ships the names of saints (what if they intercede ?!) and call them the names of famous military leaders and those places where Russian weapon showed his valor. They called the ships in honor of the ruling persons. In particular, in honor of Tsar Alexander III - 13 of the All-Russian Emperor, an armadillo was launched, launched before the deterioration of Russian-Japanese relations - “Emperor Alexander III (launched on 3 August 1901). Interestingly, his sister-spikes, built on the same project, were the armadillos Prince Suvorov (25 September 1902), Borodino (8 September 1901), Orel (6 July 1902) and Glory (29 August 1903 ), so that the whole series included five modern battleships of that time with the location of all the guns in the towers, both the main and the secondary caliber.

Squadron battleship "Emperor Alexander III": photo on a post card.

The Russian Niva magazine for 1901 reported that the strengthening of the imperial military fleet it is an urgent need for it to be able to equalize forces with the fleets of other great powers, and therefore should be welcomed in every way. As always, when it came to Russia about money, it was said that there was not enough money, but nevertheless the necessary amount of 80 million rubles was found “for shipbuilding”, and the business began to move forward quickly, and the ships descend annually, and even two at once! So now, they say, an armadillo is preparing to descend into the water after the sovereign Emperor Alexander III, who died in a Bose. This is very good news for everyone.

Then there it was noted that already on July 2 of the following year, 1902, the battleship was ready to be launched. In 12 hours 30 minutes in the presence of their Majesties, as well as generals and admirals in the slipway of the Baltic Plant, the celebration began, and in connection with this he was all decorated with flags and coniferous garlands. The pavilion for the august family, from where she had been watching what was happening, was also most luxuriously cleaned with greenery and flowers.

"Suvorov" who was not lucky ...
The battleship "Emperor Alexander III": guns of the main caliber.

The magazine reported that this battleship is a “real sea giant” with a bright red underwater part and a dark gray top. The vessel's displacement is about 14 thousand tons; and its travel speed reaches 18 nodes. The number of guns reaches 62, and among them are four main caliber 12 inches each. In general, the journalists painted the ship in as impressive a manner as possible, so, reading the material about it, it became really obvious that the sea power of the state is growing not by days, but literally by the hour.

The battleship Borodino.

It was not without reason that in textbooks for the cadet corps of that time it was written that Russia is an unusual state: it is not commercial, and not even industrial, but ... military, and fate itself was preparing for it to be a threat to the peoples! Yes, yes, that was how it was written there, and the Cadets should have memorized this maxim! Well and, of course, could not help but please the Russian inhabitants and other reports of the ships of this series - Prince Suvorov of the same type with him - who had not heard of his military glory and victories, Borodino - “the field of Russian glory, where the happy star rolled Napoleon "," Eagle "-" the royal bird "and" Glory "- one name which already speaks for itself.

Battleship "Prince Suvorov".

With the singing of the hymn “God Save the Tsar!”: “Strong, Sovereign, Reign in glory, in glory! Reign in fear of enemies, Orthodox Tsar! God save the Tsar! ”The battleship was freed from the chains, and he faltered and began to move slowly along the greased slipway. The crowd rustled, the drums struck, the sailors also sang a hymn on the deck of the descent ship, and national flags were hoisted on all flagpoles: the admiralty, of course, the imperial, the general admiral and various others. The sun played on the gold of the epaulets and diamonds on the dresses of the ladies, and yet Fate had already celebrated this celebration and was preparing to turn it into its direct opposite.

The squadron battleship "Prince Suvorov" at the time of launching, September 12 1902.

In fact, it can be argued, not without reason, that the last emperor of Russia was persecuted by evil fate. To start at least with the death of his father, because of which the evil tongues later said that the young queen “had come for the grave”; then the well-known “Khodynsk”, and now this catastrophe was added to them ... And it was necessary for such a thing to happen that at the most crucial moment of the ship’s launch into the water a strong squall hit the city, it rained and a very strong gusty wind blew .

And he was so strong that he tore off a huge flag on the top of a crane that stood on the pontoon here on the Neva, and threw it along with the flagpole towards people on the embankment! Its length was 2.5 fathoms - that is, about five meters, and the weight is appropriate. And so he struck the heads of many of those who stood there!

The battleship "Eagle" at the time of launching (photo from the magazine "Niva").

The magazine reported that the gendarme colonel V.P. Pyramids, “painting the flag with their blood,” immediately died, without regaining consciousness. Young pupils of the Emperor Nicholas I Naval Engineering School, who were brought here for the festive ceremony, were also fatally injured. Gustomesov's pupil also broke the skull with a flagpole, and he, like the Colonel Pyramids, died on the spot. Another pupil, Van der Burden, died half an hour later, on his way to the hospital. Other pupils suffered: someone had a concussion, someone had a crack in the skull.

Now imagine what impression made what happened on the elegantly dressed audience on the embankment ?! People silently dispersed, discussing that "bad, they say, this is a sign," and all this is very "not good."

The squadron battleship "Prince Suvorov" at the berth of the Baltic plant, 1903 year.

Buried the victims of the elements of July 24. Young pupils otpeli in the church of the maritime hospital, and was buried in a mass grave at the Semenovskoye cemetery of St. Petersburg. A cross over the grave was also put in common for everyone, and the inscription on it said that those who died during the launch of the battleship "Emperor Alexander III" were buried here.

Squadron battleship "Prince Suvorov" in Kronstadt, early August 1904.

Well, so how can you not believe in omens after that? The sailors themselves believed that with the ships with which something had happened during the launching, in the future something would certainly happen, and it was not that misfortune, but the most actual killing, was shed innocent blood, and moreover filled flag - worse than ever! However, just to think so is one thing, but to serve on a ship, with which all sorts of troubles occur, is quite another! For example, in 1903, the battleship began to draw water from the open-air gun ports of the onboard battery 75-mm guns during running trials, and only by shifting the rudder and stopping the ship was saved from turning upside down by the keel!

The question that the sailors and officers of the ships of this whole series began to ask themselves afterwards in those years could be only one: will the spread of the influence of this sign be limited to only one ship, or will the curse fall on the whole series, because the ships of the same type, similar like twins, and "Alexander" in the construction was the head ... And how about "Suvorov" ... Will the strength of his name be enough to "overcome" the evil fate of the thirteenth monarch? However, no one could give an answer to this question then. But many, no doubt, remembered this bad omen of 14 in May 1905, when during the Tsushima battle the battleship "Emperor Alexander III" together with "Borodino", "Prince Suvorov" and "Eagle" engaged in the battle with the Japanese. And all ... suffered and died one after the other. "Prince Suvorov" was the flagship and the first shot at the Japanese ships. However, the name of the famous commander did not help him. Soon he was bombarded with shells, a fire broke out on him, after which he soon died, and after him all the other ships of this ill-fated series. Only the battleship Eagle, which surrendered to the Japanese, and Glory, which remained in the Baltic, were saved. Of the entire crew of the battleship in which there were 867 officers and lower ranks, only one fireman Simon Kobets 1870, born in the Japanese ship, survived. With the "Borodino" also escaped only sailor Simon Yushchyn, who under the water in the dungeon was not taken aback, groped for the gun port, opened it, and managed to emerge to the surface, where he was picked up. But from the “Prince Suvorov” they rescued both the wounded admiral and the staff members, but almost the entire crew of the flagship - 38 officers and most of the sailors on it died!

The officers of the battleship "Prince Suvorov". They gave for their country the most expensive ...

Of course, materialistically speaking, the cause of the death of all these ships was some objective circumstances. But who wants to believe in the opposite, will always be able to say that the misfortune of “Emperor Alexander III” was “written with a blessing”. But the name of "Suvorov" ... Well, Suvorov, although he was a glorified commander, but he was not the king, so his "happy" name could not change an unhappy fate! ”
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  1. Alceers
    Alceers 19 May 2016 06: 28
    The author, already bears you in full. Either bows with tanks, now we got to the ships. And again, you are trying to mischief a vile little thought about our common dullness and wretchedness. As a man who has given 17 service to the Navy, I declare your intellects responsibly - bullshit. And attempts to hide behind the glorious names and tragic moments of our history are also incredible meanness.
    1. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 19 May 2016 06: 55
      The Germans also considered their WWII Scharnhorst a cursed ship wink
      1. Alex
        Alex 20 May 2016 23: 35
        Quote: Rurikovich
        The Germans also considered their WWII Scharnhorst a cursed ship

        Well, "Hipper" was not much better: there, too, there were dozens of deaths from accidents.
    2. avt
      avt 19 May 2016 08: 42
      Quote: Alceers
      The author, already bears you in full.

      Well, somehow - yes. In general, the favorite hobby of mysticism is to be attached once ... guildhood is at least a miscalculation, but in a war it’s almost always a fatal outcome. Lucky for those who are lucky competently.
      1. Ingvar 72
        Ingvar 72 19 May 2016 17: 38
        Quote: avt
        Lucky for someone who is lucky

        “God helps battalions that shoot well” - sort of like a Napoleonic saying. But in our life everything cannot be explained by logic, and we encounter evidence at every step. So I would not write down signs in obscurantism. hi
  2. bionik
    bionik 19 May 2016 06: 38
    Battleship "Borodino" installation of guns.
  3. bionik
    bionik 19 May 2016 06: 43
    Coal loading. Battleship "Eagle".
  4. bionik
    bionik 19 May 2016 06: 49
    "Eagle" after the fight.
    1. bionik
      bionik 19 May 2016 06: 51
      View from the bridge of the battleship "Eagle".
  5. Andy
    Andy 19 May 2016 06: 54
    The article is incredible stupidity. But with what pathos the caliber is rude to opponents in the comments, not counting them as people. what did he write about here? about the shipbuilding program or about mysticism? if you write about mysticism then about the Eagle that stranded while sailing, then that sank to the bottom while still being built ... you really didn’t cover a single topic
    1. qwert
      qwert 19 May 2016 07: 14
      Quote: Andy
      but with what pathos the caliber is rude to opponents in the comments, not counting them as people. what did he write about here?

      You can’t argue with that. This is unambiguous. With upbringing and conceit, the caliber has obvious problems. And this article is confusing and absurd for him.
      Although for the sake of justice, it is worth noting that when he does not go into other topics, then about small arms, his articles are quite readable.
      1. kalibr
        19 May 2016 10: 36
        Edward, name, please, "other topics" in which I do not need to go, I want to take into account the opinion of one of the readers for the future. I have very little material here about small arms.
      2. andrew42
        andrew42 19 May 2016 14: 55
        Why shouldn't Caliber be spoiled? AND? Tsushima has already been sucked from all sides a hundred times, but no! One clever guy about "slovenliness" pulled the standard bagpipes, the second about "stupid Rozhdestvensky"! yes, how much you can already! This is no longer rudeness, this is a uniform mockery. And then they get caught up - they say, they are rude to us! Why are good gentlemen with you to do that if you do not understand? In essence, the comments of the "victims of rudeness" are the following: 1) no such special slovenliness was revealed in the 2nd and 3rd Pacific squadrons, so, at the level of episodes. 2) Does a hurricane gust of wind blow off the flagpole? - Where is sloppiness here? In what? Whose is it, after all? This is the element. Those wishing to argue can try to cross a swollen mountain river, for example. Flag in hand. 3) The "stupid" Rozhdestvensky chose a plan for a "breakthrough at any cost", and having chosen it once, he acted more than adequately. The alternative was to impose a battle of mutual destruction, dividing into columns, and substituting the tardy as a firing bait for Togo. This plan was not considered. We worked out a breakthrough. That's it, that's it. In essence, the article: blind faith in omens is evil. Attention to signs and concentration of one's own attention in order to recognize a not yet identified danger is a necessary ability of any animal species capable of surviving.
    2. kalibr
      19 May 2016 10: 34
      And "poking" to a stranger, Andrei, is the height of good manners, in your opinion, isn't it? And I by no means consider people to be "nonhumans", but as for professional knowledge, yes, I have claims to them. It is unlikely that you, if you were a turner, would have liked criticism from the outside, even if at least three times a certified historian. But on the contrary, it means you can?
      1. Andy
        Andy 19 May 2016 11: 29
        as they treat me, so I treat this person. respect you know mutual thing. but in essence I didn’t wait for the answer again, except for “the fool itself. weak on arguments?
        1. Andy
          Andy 19 May 2016 11: 56
          here the enlightened author silently put a minus. Go from impotent malice. for the last time, in response to criticism of the article, he referred to my grammatical errors. Can you then not write articles at all, if any criticism causes you an attack of anger? By the way, not only I noticed your rudeness towards people, think about it!
          1. kalibr
            19 May 2016 12: 45
            Do you think that I gave you a minus? Here you are wrong. In principle, I do not put any minuses or pluses to strangers. I can't say anything, knowing only one or two comments about them, and I don't think it's possible to assess how seriously what they write is also possible. Usually I answer in text. And minus without explanation, in my opinion, is the last thing. If I don't like something I always write that. This can be seen in the comments. You re-read the story "Cut" by Shukshin and also, by the way - think about it!
        2. kalibr
          19 May 2016 12: 42
          Did I poke you? And then, Andrey, I just physically cannot sit here from morning to evening and answer all questions. It takes both time and ... thought. But everyone believes that his question is the most-most, but it seems to the other the other way around, and this also has to be taken into account.
  6. bionik
    bionik 19 May 2016 06: 55
    Sailors "Glory".
    1. bionik
      bionik 19 May 2016 06: 58
      The Slava sailors are peeling potatoes.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. bionik
        bionik 19 May 2016 07: 06
        The Slava sailors are swimming.
  7. V.ic
    V.ic 19 May 2016 07: 00
    What can I say? Sign ... They say that at the beginning of the reign of Nicholas 1 there was a saying - a forecast "Khodynka began-Khodynka and will end!"
  8. bionik
    bionik 19 May 2016 07: 01
    The guns and the tower of the "Glory" group of companies cut by fragments.
  9. bionik
    bionik 19 May 2016 07: 11
    "Prince Suvorov" at the Baltic Shipyard.
  10. Alceers
    Alceers 19 May 2016 07: 30
    Quote: qwert
    Although for the sake of justice, it is worth noting that when he does not go into other topics, then about small arms, his articles are quite readable.

    The author is good at the narrative. Those. taught to work with sources. But its analytical part - not from the word analysis ... Here its moral appearance of the tram haml and Russophobia makes itself felt.
  11. sevtrash
    sevtrash 19 May 2016 07: 38
    "Once happiness, twice happiness - have mercy on God! Someday you need a little skill" - Suvorov.
    "Victory comes to the one who knows how to find opportunities in problems" - Sun Tzu.
  12. Kenneth
    Kenneth 19 May 2016 08: 27
    I wonder where they saw analytics in the article. In general, is there anything besides the battle of psychics in this article?
  13. yehat
    yehat 19 May 2016 09: 36
    Fiction about bad luck and doom - it's just fiction
    you just need to do your job to the end. The Japanese have a saying that because of an unbeaten nail,
    you can lose the battle. So the Russian fleet got so many unclogged nails to Tsushima that it could not but affect.
  14. Oprychnik
    Oprychnik 19 May 2016 10: 02
    Mystic? Bad omens? Total bad luck? Sloppiness? Probably, such things have a place to be.
    Here, for example, as in this case.
    "Dumb Republican" or the misadventures of the destroyer USS William D Porter ... -...
  15. King, just king
    King, just king 19 May 2016 10: 37
    Vyacheslav. This is somehow not that ... And then entitled "Suvorov" when it is mainly about "Alexander III"? The article should generally be titled “Accident during the descent of the squadron battleship“ Emperor Alexander III. ”It is not clear what brought you into maritime history.
    1. kalibr
      19 May 2016 11: 22
      You have come up with a good name! But you read the very first paragraph? This is a kind of "answer" to the judgments expressed here in the comments. You can't put it in a comment, but it's interesting. Of course, someone did not know this. So I don't see any crime.
  16. 96423lom
    96423lom 19 May 2016 10: 51
    The stupidity and mediocrity of Admiral Rozhestvensky put the battleships under attack and they were shot one at a time. So. that no mysticism.
    1. overb
      overb 20 May 2016 12: 14
      Quote: 96423lom
      The stupidity and mediocrity of Admiral Rozhdestvensky

      Well, of course.
      And the ships seemed to be excellent. And their weapons were, as it were, excellent. And their crews were, as it were, excellent. One Rozhdestvensky made a mistake. And before him, Stark, Makarov, Ukhtomsky and Viren.
      In fact, everything was there together.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  17. DimanC
    DimanC 19 May 2016 11: 09
    When will our would-be writers on maritime topics stop using the term sister ship? ... Well, not a feminine "ship" in Russian ...
    1. kalibr
      19 May 2016 11: 22
      But after all, it is constantly used in a variety of publications, is not it?
      1. King, just king
        King, just king 19 May 2016 16: 10
        Vyacheslav, that’s a stupid answer. Well, why did we all begin to use borrowed words that are not inherent in the Russian language and are not related to it? Okay, house, street, etc. Especially youth slang is completely angled. Shops, music groups are called in English.

        What are the Russian words, except for "perestroika" and "sputnik" (in a certain sense), but vodka, have entered the English language? Sistership, of course, it is shorter than "one-part", but using this word is contrary to common sense.
        The pure Russian language itself is turning into heaven knows what. I, personally, always write the letter E, because nobody canceled it in Russian, and the words sound like "hedgehog", not "hedgehog".
        1. Naum
          Naum 19 May 2016 16: 27
          +++! "Hedgehog under the tree" is a bullshit, but, unfortunately, it took place ...
        2. kalibr
          19 May 2016 17: 01
          I also do not like verbal westernization and - imagine how many English terms there are in PR and advertising - is immeasurable, but here I have come across this word many times in various articles about ships and used it as quite common. I am not a great specialist in ships, so alas, I do not know such subtleties.
          1. King, just king
            King, just king 19 May 2016 18: 55
            They write .... without really thinking.

            About a small specialist. Then, actually, on the .. article? For check? I doubt it, of course, for a "tick". Trouble, since ...
        3. overb
          overb 20 May 2016 12: 20
          Quote: King, just king
          What are the Russian words except for "perestroika" and "sputnik" (in a certain sense), and, vodka, have entered the English language?

          Vodka, that's all. The satellite is called satellite. Only perestroika remembers perestroika.
    2. yehat
      yehat 19 May 2016 17: 44
      Well, the British, too, with the names of the ships is not easy:
      Singingkan renamed to Pelispike
  18. alexej123
    alexej123 19 May 2016 11: 28
    Vyacheslav, a question for you and other specialists - why was Prince Suvorov chosen as the flagship? After all, his similar type "Alexander III" had a Guards crew? Logically, should he be the flagship? I ask you not to judge strictly if I do not understand anything. I'm not a professional battle historian, but I love history. Therefore, I ask the knowledgeable.
    1. Andy
      Andy 19 May 2016 11: 37
      I’m not special, but let me answer you. the answer may not be exhaustive, but in part it will shed light. banal hostility and rudeness of the admiral and ship commander. this is not an isolated case. Makarov did not get along very well with Viren, and Enquist suddenly transferred his flag from Oleg to Aurora after the battle ...
      1. kalibr
        19 May 2016 12: 52
        Yes, without a doubt, personal likes and dislikes played a role and what. But you can learn 100% about it either from memoirs or from documents. And what's the best way to do it? This is a job for very narrow fleet historians. And in this case, I just came across material in the magazine "Niva" which formed the basis of this material. I just could not pass it by, especially since there was a speech about sea superstitions here.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. kalibr
      19 May 2016 12: 48
      I don't know, that's the whole answer. These are the most difficult questions to answer. Surely there were some documents where this is reflected, but ... was it not a behind-the-scenes "opinion"? In the first case, it is hard work to search for these documents, in the second, it is generally impossible.
      1. alexej123
        alexej123 19 May 2016 17: 11
        Interesting. Usually, by the word "Guard" you mean "Most-Samy". And here - the Guards Crew, and another battleship was chosen as the flagship. Someone's personal ambitions overpowered the interests of the state? According to Pikul - "Three ages of Okini-San" "Alexander III", I mean the crew, fought and died with dignity.
    4. Nehist
      Nehist 19 May 2016 14: 10
      Although the crew was guards, it was staffed with penalty sailors. Rozhdestvensky, because of his snobbery, defended below his dignity to keep the flag on this ship
  19. Andy
    Andy 19 May 2016 12: 21
    yes, by the way, in addition to the article, "Glory" was not saved, but died in 1917 in Moonsund ...
  20. DimerVladimer
    DimerVladimer 19 May 2016 14: 41
    It started well, but did not end well - I was expecting the history of a series of ships, features, historical moments, but so little in the end that I won’t put anything. Hope to continue.
    1. kalibr
      19 May 2016 17: 03
      No Dmitry Vladimirovich, the ball is over, the candles are out - there will be no continuation. It was material on an article in the magazine "Niva" with some additions taken from ... comments here on the site. Just information for thought and nothing more. There is nothing to continue, in fact, everything has been written about these ships long ago without me.
    2. King, just king
      King, just king 20 May 2016 10: 14
      This is for you to Melnikov.
  21. alicante11
    alicante11 19 May 2016 15: 01
    And I agree with the author (for once). The series is unhappy and the war is unhappy. Eagle's misadventures in the completion have already been mentioned. However, the name of the ship itself is unfortunate. One Oryol was captured and burned by the Cossacks under the first Romanovs, another one surrendered to the Turks. And the third, of course, surrendered to the Japanese. The same Retvizan in PA - also called a "trophy". The bad luck in PA was also total (Yenisei and Boyarin lost on their mines, Makarov and Petropavlovsk died, Vitgeft at the end of the battle in ZhM, which led the squadron into frustration. Well, there’s a song about Tsushima. We started not badly, even the first the ship knocked out of the line - Asama, received a "gift" 12 inches from Nicholas-1 to the underwater unit, then, in my opinion, Tokachiho or Kassagi caught the same when the cruiser was hit by our GSs. from Borodino, a shell that pierced the armor of the main battery turret, but the fire that started (weak, it is true) was flooded with water from the tower's hydraulic drive. And at least a scratch, although Miksa also got a good deal of it. And Rozhdestvensky's fragments were also found in the armored wheelhouse. On Oslyab, shells hit the same place twice.
    By the way, the name of Suvorov is really very strong. Because, unlike the same Alexander-3 and Borodin (also not a victory, Moscow was left after him), he died not from artillery fire, but was finished off by torpedoes. Although received no less than theirs. And until the last moment it was controlled and had a move.
    It is clear that the defeat at Tsushima was objective. But bad luck turned him into a rout.
    1. King, just king
      King, just king 19 May 2016 16: 17
      He wrote several times on articles about Tsushima in the comments. Yes, it is total bad luck.
    2. overb
      overb 20 May 2016 12: 26
      Quote: alicante11
      It is clear that the defeat at Tsushima was objective. But bad luck turned him into a rout.

      The defeat at Tsushima was predetermined in advance. Only the inability to objectively assess his strength led the tsar to the decision to send this "set of handsome men" to the Far East.
  22. proud
    proud 19 May 2016 22: 47
    You cannot escape fate and the name has nothing to do with it, although many do not believe in mysticism, the name for the ship, for example, "Admiral Nakhimov" does not carry anything good! The first ship bearing this name died in the Tsushima battle, the second, if I'm not mistaken, collided with a submarine and received such damage that it was scrapped! Then there was a passenger liner with "Admiral Nakhimov", which collided with a dry cargo ship when leaving the port, if I am not mistaken, it seems to be Sochi and within five minutes went to the bottom taking more than a thousand people to the bottom! What fate awaits the renamed Orlan series cruiser, which is currently being upgraded, only God knows!
    1. alexej123
      alexej123 24 May 2016 08: 51
      You are mistaken, in Novorossiysk, when you leave Tsemess Bay, it sank.
  23. Dal arya
    Dal arya 20 May 2016 01: 18
    My picture ,, Tsushima battle ,,.
    From left to right.
    -Alexander 3-leads column
    -Suvorov-all on fire came out of the column
    - Eagle - slightly damaged
    -Obslabya-also all on fire away from the column

    I would give this picture to the museum but I don’t know which one.
    1. King, just king
      King, just king 20 May 2016 08: 56
      Oslyabya rolled over before Suvorov went out of order, and in general did not burn;
      bursts from small-caliber shells, and even next to bursts from 6-inch or 12-inch ???

      And so - pretty.
  24. overb
    overb 20 May 2016 12: 00
    built on one project

    There were still differences. Both in projects and in the quality of their execution. The worst was built Glory. They did not even hastily finish building it for campaign 2 TOE.
    the whole series included five armadillos contemporary at that time

    Where do "modern battleships" come from, if the Tsarevich, as a class 1 EBR, was rather weak (converted from a class 2 EBR). And then his project was still redone and "improved" by Russian "specialists". And on top of that, the battleships were built at Russian shipyards. On the "exhaust" there were just armadillos. Not a "squadron" class. Apparently, such ships were the ceiling of the level of technological development of the Republic of Ingushetia in those years. Not an advanced part of Europe, of course, but the level was very good, I must say.
    and its speed reaches 18 knots. The number of guns reaches 62, and among them four main caliber of 12 inches each.

    The speed of the Borodinians was mainly about 17,5 knots, and the main guns were 12 "(305 mm) / 40 only according to the Russian measurement system. According to the generally accepted measurement system, they were 300 / 38,3, that is, already smaller than the Japanese (British ) 305/40.
    it became really obvious that the sea power of the state is growing stronger by leaps and bounds

    In fact, the Borodinians for the domestic military shipbuilding were a very noticeable step forward. Russia would still not hurt a couple of normal admirals. And with a dozen ship commanders. And with a hundred officers. But it was very tight with that.
    Russia is an unusual state: it is not commercial, or even industrial, but ... military

    There were serious problems with the top cuckoo.
    For example, in 1903, on sea trials, an armadillo began to scoop up water with open gun ports of the onboard battery of 75-mm guns, and only by changing the rudder and stopping the course the ship was saved from turning over by the keel!

    What a surprise. It is not for nothing that the project was "improved". There were also "little things".
    1. King, just king
      King, just king 20 May 2016 18: 39
      Citizen "overb"! In each of your paragraph-answer, E-R-U-N-D-A, V-R-A-K-I, G-L-U-P-O-S-T-I.
  25. King, just king
    King, just king 20 May 2016 22: 18
    Hey minus players. What, the mind is not enough in the case, what to say, minus, because we minus? I am ready to prove that the "overb" in the post under discussion is just a chatterbox, and who is ready to talk to me about this?
    Open the faces, gulchetai.
    1. overb
      overb 21 May 2016 01: 32
      Quote: King, just king
      ready to prove that "overb" in the post under discussion is just a chatterbox

      If you are ready to prove something, then prove it. And do not waste your time with a broom, as is customary for empty chimes.
      Only the proving room hasn’t grown yet. It's too early for you.
      1. King, just king
        King, just king 21 May 2016 11: 23
        You, citizen "overb" - Hamlo, and cattle to the same.

        But since I said that you are a liar and a talker, then I am ready to answer for my words Only if you are ready for a conversation - let's clarify the sources of evidence to which we will refer. What do you have?

        I have the following:
        Melnikov: "Battleships of the Borodino type";
        Gribovsky: "Squadron battleships of the Borodino class."
        Vinogradov: "Battleship Slava".
        Marine collection: "Battleship" Slava "".
        Shirokorad: "Encyclopedia of Russian Artillery".
        A lot of little things. This is only for Borodino.

        What’s yours, talkative?

        By the way, I would ask all members of the forum not to interfere in our dialogue, let me show the liar and the talker "overb" in its purest form.
        1. overb
          overb 21 May 2016 11: 35
          Quote: King, just king
          You, citizen "overb" - Hamlo, and cattle to the same.

          I didn’t understand something. From somewhere under the driftwood crawled out ... I will not name a specific name.
          He called me a liar.
          He promised to prove everything in the world.
          But when he was asked to prove it, he was terribly offended.
          You are a chatterbox. Inadequate, besides. So your nickname speaks about it. And your "evidence" is of this level. You are not interesting to me, find an interlocutor of your level.
        2. King, just king
          King, just king 21 May 2016 11: 44
          And if you, a citizen "overb", jump into the bushes, then I will go into each of your topics, write about how bad you are ... and give a link to this topic. You, "overb" for "windbag" - answer.
  26. King, just king
    King, just king 21 May 2016 11: 54

  27. Logos
    Logos 21 May 2016 21: 28
    It was not without reason that in the textbooks for the cadet corps of that time it was written that Russia was an unusual state: it was neither a trade, nor even an industrial one, but ... a military one, and fate itself prepared for it the role of a menace!

    As familiar with the current realities. History does not teach anything, 100 years have passed, and the same rake ((
  28. Logos
    Logos 21 May 2016 21: 35
    Quote: King, just king
    He wrote several times on articles about Tsushima in the comments. Yes, it is total bad luck.

    The Japanese fleet surpassed the Russian squadron in large-caliber trunks, in technical condition and speed (at the time of the meeting near Tsushima after a difficult transition of the Russian squadron halfway around the world), too.
    If the enemy squadron exceeds ours in terms of firepower and speed, then any sane person will understand that the chances of victory are slim. Unfortunately, there were no longer any such people either at the top of the government or in the navy (after the death of S. Makarov), Russia was categorically and totally unlucky with this, here I agree with you

    In general, as far as I remember, the Christmas squadron was not at all instructed to seek battle with the Japanese. She was supposed to strengthen the Port Arthur squadron, that was the original plan. But Port Arthur fell, and the squadron was essentially stupidly sent to slaughter. Yes, even if Port Arthur hadn’t fallen, why would the Japanese let through the 2nd squadron, exhausted by the transition, to Port Arthur without a fight?
    According to the plan, it was assumed that in this case the squadron would sneak through the Tsushima straits "imperceptibly" to Port Arthur, taking advantage of the weather conditions and in radio silence, and the Ponts would not notice anything and would not undertake anything. Therefore, Rozhdestvensky and even a battle plan did not exist as such. Circumstances alone show how Russia is totally unlucky with the elite, "reasoning" in this way
  29. King, just king
    King, just king 21 May 2016 23: 18
    Ah, citizen of "Logos", yes, following your rule, one 5th squadron in Jutland should have swept the Vanguard from the surface of the sea, and the Grand Fleet should have drowned the Hochseeflotte without any problems. It didn't work, it didn't work (to drown).

    Yes, speed ... I don’t remember exactly, but either at the end of the 19th or the beginning of the 20th century, the British conducted several exercises. In both, the squadron won, having a 2-4 knot move more. But Tsushima, here is speed, and here is a total bad luck in shooting.

    If only 2 squadron approached when Arthur did not fall, then the Japanese would not have a chance.

    There was no particular plan. Go to Vladivostok, and the squadron went.

    And the admiral, or rather the vice admiral, a citizen of "Logos", was Zinovy ​​Petrovich Rozhestvensky. You need to be more careful.
  30. Comrade
    Comrade 25 May 2016 03: 40
    Quote: overb
    Cesarevich, as an EBR of the 1 class, was rather weak (redone from the EBR of the 2 class)

    The British had many of the first class battleships even weaker. By the way, according to the English classification, the prototype of the "Tsarevich" was also considered a first class battleship, not a second. Or is there a mistake, are you right, not Brassay?
    1. overb
      overb 25 May 2016 12: 00
      Quote: Comrade
      The British had many armadillos of the first class even weaker.

      1. And what about the British?
      2. Waiting for examples.
      Quote: Comrade
      By the way, according to the English classification, the prototype of the "Tsarevich" was also considered a first-class battleship

      Which one do you mean? And then the candidates for the prototypes of the Cesarevich from the heels are definitely typed (more often called Zhereiberiberi). The littered sides, this is not at all a sign that some ship is a prototype of the Cesarevich.
      Quote: Comrade
      Or is there a mistake, are you right, not Brassey?

      And where does Brassey have a mistake? Did he point somewhere to the prototype of the Cesarevich? Nowhere did he do this and could not do it.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  31. Pilat2009
    Pilat2009 30 October 2016 11: 00
    Quote: Rurikovich
    The Germans also considered their WWII Scharnhorst a cursed ship

    And Deutschland was renamed from sin into Lutz
  32. Pilat2009
    Pilat2009 30 October 2016 11: 04
    Quote: Logos
    Christmas squadron

    Zinovy ​​Petrovich probably turned over in his grave more than once. If you write, write correctly