Military Review

Russian classics: secrets of the legendary "three-line" Mosin

136
Russian classics: secrets of the legendary "three-line" Mosin
The 28 of April marks the 125 anniversary since the Russian army adopted the "three-line rifle of the 1891 model of the year" - a magazine rifle of the 7,62 caliber mm designed by Sergey Mosin.


This is a small weapon It was widely used during the Russian-Japanese, First World, Civil and Great Patriotic Wars, more than half a century was in service with the Russian Empire and the USSR. Sniper variants of this rifle are still used, including in armed conflict in Syria.

History create a "trilinek"

Adopted by the Russian army in 1867-1870. The two types of Hiram Berdan rifle system (“riders”) were single-shot — after the shot, the weapon had to be reloaded manually.

In 1882, the Main Artillery Directorate of the Military Ministry of the Russian Empire set the task of developing a “repetitive” (multiply charged) rifle. To conduct the relevant competition, the Commission on the Testing of Store Guns was created, which considered both fundamentally new systems and attempts to adapt the magazine for several cartridges to the Berdan system.

One of such projects in 1883 was proposed by Captain Sergey Mosin, the head of the tool shop at the Tula Arms Plant, but the commission finally found attempts to improve the jerkiness to be unpromising.

In 1883-1889 various rifle systems were considered. In 1889, Sergei Mosin proposed a new rifle caliber 7,62 mm for the competition (in the old measures of length - three Russian lines, hence the name "three-line").

In the same year, the commission received a competitive offer from the Belgian Leon Nagant - a rifle caliber 8 mm. The organizers of the competition developed a technical task, proposing Mosin and Nagan to refine their systems under the established requirements.

According to the results of comparative tests of the samples obtained in 1891, the commission chose Mosin’s “three-way” Mosin, deciding, however, to substantially change and supplement the design - including elements borrowed from Leon Nagant, who sold patents, drawings and patterns to the Russian side competitive rifle.

In addition, the design was amended by members of the commission - Colonel Petrov and Staff Captain Savosyanov, as well as Colonel Rogovtsev, who developed a "trilinear" blunt cartridge with smokeless powder.

Adoption


Echelon with the Red Army goes to the front, 1918 year
© Photo Chronicle TASS

28 April (16 April old style) 1891, by decree of Emperor Alexander III, the Russian army adopted a "three-line rifle of the 1891 model of the year." Since the group of specialists was responsible for the development, it was considered incorrect to fix only one surname in the name of the rifle.
Sergei Mosin was awarded the Order of St. Anne II degree and the Great Mikhailovsky Prize "for outstanding developments in artillery and rifle units", the copyrights to the elements of the developed weapon were retained.

Only after upgrading 1930 will it be referred to as the "Mosin three-line rifle of the 1891 / 1930 model." In Western sources, the name Mosin-Nagant rifle is also common.

Characteristics of the "trilinea" sample 1891 g .:

- length: 1 thousand 306 mm (with bayonet - 1 thousand 738 mm, barrel - 800 mm)
- weight without bayonet: 4 kg
-store capacity: 5 ammo
- bullet speed: 640 m / s. (blunt heavy), up to 880 m / s. (pointed light)
bullet energy: up to 3 thou. 800 joules
-Bear rate: 10 shots per minute
- target range: 1 thousand 920 m

The advantages of a rifle:

- simplicity of service and application
- high power
- accuracy and reliability (in comparison with other small arms of those years)

Disadvantages rifle:

- large dimensions
-slow charging bolt handle
- uncomfortable fuse

Release and combat use

The production of the trilinek started in 1892-1893. at Tula, Izhevsk and Sestroretsky weapons factories. Initially, infantry and cavalry (with a shortened barrel) variants were produced, in 1907, a short barrel carbine was added to them.

According to various sources, for the first time the Russian military used a three-line design under combat conditions:

-in 1893 at the collision of the expeditionary detachment with the Afghans in the Pamirs
-in 1898 in repelling the attacks of the Islamists on the garrison in Andijan
-in 1900 during the suppression of the Boxing Uprising in China

At the time of the entry of the Russian Empire into the First World War, the Russian army was armed with 4 million 519 thousand 700 "trilineas", and a small part of them was produced in the United States.

After the war, the issue continued in the USSR, Finland, Poland and others produced their modernized versions. Mosin rifles were in service with various 30 countries over the years. In Belarus, the “trilinek” was officially decommissioned only in 2005. The Karabin Mosin can be used in the FSUE “Okhrana” system of the Ministry of the Interior of Russia.

Modifications


The guardian of the fund of weapons Roman Sheparev demonstrates the "three-line"
© Yuri Mashkov / TASS

During the upgrades, the rifle acquired a wooden cover to protect the hands of the shooter.
In 1910, a three-lane version was developed for a cartridge with a pointed bullet (the sighting range increased to 2 thousand 276 m).
In 1930, the sights and the method of fastening the bayonet are changed, a new holder has been applied.
A sniper version with a telescopic sight (1932), a modified carbine (1938) appeared.
Rifle sample 1891 / 1930's. It was produced until January 1944 g. (according to other data - until the beginning of 1945), a carbine of the 1944 model - up to the adoption of a Kalashnikov assault rifle in 1949 g.
In 1959, the Izhevsk plant produced a batch of carbines for the needs of private security, and the USSR also launched production of a variety of civilian and sporting rifle modifications, some of which are made in the Russian Federation at the present time.
In addition, sniper rifle versions are available in Russia, Ukraine and in some other countries - with a telescopic sight, bipod, flame arrester and a damped butt.
Author:
Originator:
http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/3244617
136 comments
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  1. Igor39
    Igor39 1 May 2016 06: 24
    +20
    Well happy birthday past! 125 years in service, normal and still in service.
    1. Chiropractor
      Chiropractor 3 May 2016 09: 21
      +5
      where are the secrets?
    2. Litsvin
      Litsvin 4 May 2016 23: 42
      +1
      The legendary three-ruler grandmother is 125 years old. Happy anniversary!!! But even so, the first place in the world belongs to the "German Frau Mauser" - it was Paul Mauser who made the world's first, unsurpassed in design, bolt-action rifle. The rest - Americans, British, Russians, Belgians - just cloned a German masterpiece in their own way.
      "Granny Mauser" well "put" the British in South Africa, the Americans in Mexico, distinguished herself in 2 World Wars and still "works" in Africa, Asia and Latin America. The popularity of "Mauser" is evidenced by the fact that among collectors with the same technical condition and approximately the same years of production, the price of "Mauser" is 2,5-4 times more than "Mosinka".
      In the field of hunting rifles in general, Mauser and its clones own 80% of the world market. Look, in my safe there is a "trophy" hunting rifle "Mauser" of 1936 with the "eagle" and "Reichpatent" knocked out on the breech - a super thing. Fells flawlessly any beast. Any modern "Beretta", "Remington", etc. newfangled garbage "nervously smokes on the sidelines" - there are no arguments against "Frau Mauser". Long ago I had the opportunity to shoot from Mosinka at the shooting range. First, I and 2 of my comrades (all experienced hunters) fired from my Mauser hunting carbine (an analogue of the military version of the Kar-98K), then from the Mosinka produced during the Second World War. Out of 20 cartridges from the Mauser at a distance of about 200 meters, all hit a metal lid from an enameled pan with a diameter of about 25 cm. Of 20 cartridges from Mosinka, something about 6 times hit the same plate, and this despite the fact that Mosinks have a longer barrel compared to my carbine. This is the arithmetic.
      Although, of course, "Mosinka" and "Mauser" are two legends of the same historical period.
      1. alatanas
        alatanas 6 May 2016 14: 43
        0
        Nevertheless, the best rifle in the WWII is not considered to be Mauser, but the Austrian Manliher.
        1. Litsvin
          Litsvin 7 May 2016 12: 17
          -1
          This Austrians told you about the "Mannlicher" ??? !!! Probably, in a similar way, they somehow wanted to raise the prestige of their army, ignominiously fighting in the First World War, from a "historical perspective". Only the Turkish allies were worse than the Austrian allies for the Germans. The Germans only managed to help both of them, scattering their own resources.
          1. Mavrikiy
            Mavrikiy 20 May 2016 05: 40
            0
            Quote: Litsvin
            This Austrians told you about the "Mannlicher" ??? !!! Probably, in a similar way, they somehow wanted to raise the prestige of their army, ignominiously fighting in the First World War, from a "historical perspective". Only the Turkish allies were worse than the Austrian allies for the Germans. The Germans only managed to help both of them, scattering their own resources.

            And what about the Turks? Advisers are not resources. Dardanelles Turks defended themselves.
            1. Litsvin
              Litsvin 21 May 2016 09: 47
              0
              Sami !!! ??? Yes, yes, yourself. Krupp guns also appeared on Galipoli themselves, Mauser rifles, MG-08 machine guns. Fuck there yourself - without the Germans, they would not have defeated the Angichians. Read Ludendorff, he wrote well about the Turks as a nation, about their primitive language, about the fighting qualities of soldiers - or rather, their absence.
  2. martin-159
    martin-159 1 May 2016 06: 25
    +15
    So much has been written about this rifle that it is difficult to say something new and it seems that I already read it.
    1. Gray brother
      Gray brother 1 May 2016 08: 29
      +16
      Quote: martin-159
      That I already read it.

      I also read and usually diagonally :-)
      Now I'm confused - it became interesting how it discharges. Found:
      1. bistrov.
        bistrov. 1 May 2016 09: 19
        +14
        Quote: Gray Brother
        I also read and usually diagonally: -

        Some experts believe that the magazine box of the Mosin rifle and the feeding mechanism, in particular its upper plate, require some refinement, for example, the upper plate of the feeding mechanism needs to be slightly bent up (carefully bent so as not to break, the plate is made of elastic steel), and the back the side of the magazine box itself, on the side of the contact of the bottom of the sleeve, slightly bore, approximately 1-2 mm. This eliminates the disadvantages inherent in the weld cartridge, the welt prevents the cartridge from lying in parallel, i.e. the cartridges in the magazine box lie a few bullets down. When a cartridge is sent with a bolt in the barrel chamber, there are frequent cases of a pointed bullet sticking into the barrel end, which causes delays in firing and almost 100% of this sticking occurs when one cartridge is inserted into the receiver. Therefore, in the instruction on firing from the Mosin rifle, it is recommended in any case to insert a cartridge into a store box, before being pressed by its cut-off. Improvements described above, to avoid sticking of the cartridge and delays in the shelf, the cartridge in this case is fed a few bullets up, directing it directly into the chamber opening.
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. Sibiriya
          Sibiriya 4 May 2016 00: 49
          0
          wonderful rifle created by a wonderful man
      2. Sorokin
        Sorokin 3 May 2016 22: 22
        +1
        16 shops from stainless steel were made to me at the Dzerzhinsky plant in Perm. There is a collapse. the machine stood until 1996. Cartridges with my father used from the packages of Vokhr 1939, I did not understand a single misfire than I poured over the capsules. The color of the varnish is brown. He drowned, froze, shoots. True, I made a reservation, we had a shortcut. The carbine but the whole system. Clean, love and your elk.
      3. The comment was deleted.
    2. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 3 May 2016 12: 58
      +1
  3. Combitor
    Combitor 1 May 2016 06: 26
    +5
    There are no images of the weapon itself for the article. No pictures are liquid.
    1. Aleksandr72
      Aleksandr72 1 May 2016 09: 43
      +23
      And how do you like this picture - almost all known serial and not only modifications of the Mosin rifle - a Russian weapon masterpiece, about which it was said: "Russian rifle for a Russian soldier!"
      hi
      1. Beefeater
        Beefeater 1 May 2016 15: 50
        +13
        There is not enough trimmings)))
        1. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak 1 May 2016 20: 40
          +13
          Yeah ... classic damn ....)))
  4. soldner
    soldner 1 May 2016 07: 11
    +8
    The authorship of the new rifle was clearly formulated by the then Minister of War P.S. Vannovsky in his resolution on the adoption of the model for service:
    In the new sample being manufactured, there are parts proposed by Colonel Rogovtsev, the commission of Lieutenant General Chagin, Captain Mosin and the gunsmith Nagan, so it is advisable to give the developed sample the name: Russian 3-lin. rifle sample 1891.
    On April 16, 1891, Emperor Alexander III approved the model by deleting the word "Russian", so the rifle was adopted for service under the name "three-line rifle of the 1891 model."
    1. papik09
      papik09 2 May 2016 12: 27
      -2
      I do not understand the meaning. Why, finally, say what is written? Or learned the keyboard layout, foreman?
  5. parusnik
    parusnik 1 May 2016 07: 39
    +6
    Veteran .. and somewhere else at the post ..
  6. D. Dan
    D. Dan 1 May 2016 07: 58
    +8
    It’s a pity that you can’t buy a good one now, the Izhevsk people disfigure the trunks and then sell them to hunters ...
  7. bistrov.
    bistrov. 1 May 2016 08: 21
    +19
    I would like to challenge the thesis of the article ... "wooden pad to protect the hands of the shooter" .... A wooden plate with tips, originally made of brass, later from ordinary black sheet iron, blued, and then also painted for reliability with black paint (I think, to exclude a sun glare), was introduced, first of all, to reduce the vibrations of the barrel, when passage of a bullet through its channel, and as a consequence, the occurrence of additional deviation (deflection) of the bullet. It must be said that a bullet fired from a propeller weapon is already subject to deviation due to the acquired right-hand (in the direction of the rifling) bullet rotation and air resistance (this phenomenon is called derivation), if we assume that all other factors affecting the bullet's flight are eliminated. When firing a Mosin rifle at a distance of more than 300 meters, an amendment must be introduced, since the deflection of the bullet to the right side in this case has tangible values ​​- several (3-4) centimeters. With an increase in the distance of the shot, the derivation, respectively, increases. Oscillations of the barrel that occur when a bullet passes through it make these phenomena unpredictable (bullet spread). The upper pad and the stock rings, tightly pressing it to the stock, seem to additionally fix the barrel and reduce its vibrations, which accordingly improves the accuracy of the rifle's battle. To improve the rifle's combat, experts recommend, firstly, to tightly fit the receiver to the stock (without gaps) and secondly, on the contrary, leave a gap of about 1 millimeter (checked with a thread) between the barrel and the extension of the stock and the receiver lining. In the places where the false rings are located between the barrel and the stock, and, accordingly, the barrel lining is made from ordinary cotton tissue, tightly fixing the position of the barrel in these places. With these simple measures, optimal damping of barrel vibrations is achieved and, accordingly, the accuracy of the rifle battle improves. To reduce recoil (kick) between the end of the receiver shank and in the place where the receiver stop and the bolt land, it is also recommended to make shock-absorbing pads made of cotton fabric (bikes). These simple measures can significantly increase the accuracy of the battle and reduce the recoil of the rifle.
    I must say that some snipers still prefer the Mosin rifle to everyone else for accuracy of battle. The modern rifles used for sniping, as a rule, have a bare barrel and, accordingly, increased bullet dispersion over long distances.
    1. single
      single 1 May 2016 13: 43
      +1
      Don't you confuse "derivation" with "deviation"? And where does this figure come from - 40 mm by 300 meters? What do I remember about SVD - 12 cm by 600 meters. So her trunk will be shorter than Mosinka.
      1. bistrov.
        bistrov. 1 May 2016 20: 06
        +3
        Quote: Single
        And you do not confuse "derivation" with "deviation"

        Deviation is a deviation, a general term.
        Derivation - 1) deviation of the flight of a bullet, shell.
        - 2) diversion of water from the river into the canal. (Ozhegov dictionary)
      2. bistrov.
        bistrov. 1 May 2016 21: 00
        +5
        Quote: Single
        So her trunk will be shorter than Mosinki.

        BM barrel length infantry version 82 cm (produced before 1930)
        VM dragoon version 72 cm
        SVD-62 cm.
        The length of the barrel has little effect on the derivation, it is due to the pitch of the rifling, the mass of the bullet, atmospheric phenomena and the angle of elevation of the trunk. The pitch of the rifling for the SVD and VM is different, in addition, the barrel of the SVD is slightly bent to the left so that at a shot distance of 300 m the bullet hits exactly the aiming point. And later, the derivation of the SVD and VM are somewhat different, for example, at a shot distance of 1200 m. SVD - 1,0 meter, VM 1,2 meters.
        1. BARKHAN
          BARKHAN 2 May 2016 15: 41
          +7
          Quote: bistrov.
          In addition, the SVD barrel is slightly bent to the left so that at a shot distance of 300 m the bullet hits exactly the aiming point

          For the first time I hear from you about the "curved" trunk to the left. request But I know for sure that the PSO-1 sight (standard for SVD) is structurally biased to the left for this purpose. And at a distance of 300 meters by derivation, the hit point returns to the aiming point. Up to 300 meters, this left shift is not taken into account, since It is within the natural dispersion of the bullet (accuracy).
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. PKK
      PKK 1 May 2016 17: 30
      +6
      I once came across a kalash with the lower part of the barrel lining dangling, it’s clear that it’s impossible to shoot from it precisely. The aluminum beer can’s tape solved the problem. I reeled it on the barrel, pressed it with the gas lining and the gas pipe. The lower one became rooted to the spot. Maybe this experience will be useful to the owners rifles.
    4. Black Colonel
      Black Colonel 4 May 2016 19: 41
      0
      Actually, "deviation" is sexual perversion. And "derivation" is from the area of ​​the projectile's flight path from the rifled barrel.
  8. zoknyay82
    zoknyay82 1 May 2016 08: 46
    +6
    ... "Three-leneechki four times damned, we take care of them as our lawful ones" ... One veteran of the Great Patriotic War sang.
    1. lelikas
      lelikas 1 May 2016 12: 09
      +30
      Of course "button accordion" but still funny -
      M16 - The butt melts under the magnifying glass.
      AK-47 - Under the magnifying glass, you can see Vietnamese mud still working instead of grease.
      Mosin Rifle - Under the magnifying glass you can see the blood-soaked tree.

      M16 - Wedges when dirty.
      AK-47 - Works when dirty.
      Mosin Rifle - There wasn’t a clear moment of entering the troops in 1892.

      M16 - Hundreds of moving parts held together by dozens of bolts and screws.
      AK-47 - A pair of dozens of moving parts held together by a handful of rivets and the ugly seams of a drunken Russian welder.
      Mosin rifle - three moving parts, two screws.

      M16 - You are more likely to die than you will break this expensive rifle in hand-to-hand combat.
      AK-47 - Your submachine gun can beat off well in hand-to-hand combat.
      Mosin Rifle - Your rifle is a cool spear with the ability to shoot.

      M16 - If a striker breaks, you will return the rifle to the factory under warranty.
      AK-47- If a striker breaks, you buy a new one.
      Mosin Rifle - If a striker breaks, you spin it a couple of turns further into the bolt.

      M16 - More difficult to manufacture than some aircraft.
      AK-47 - Used by countries that do not have money for airplanes.
      Mosin Rifle - Aircraft were shot down from it.

      M16 - The owner's favorite drink is whiskey.
      AK-47 - The owner’s favorite drink is vodka.
      Mosin Rifle - Owner's favorite drink is brake fluid discharged over a frozen crowbar.

      M16 - Makes a small hole, neatly in accordance with the Geneva Convention.
      AK-47 - Makes a big hole, sometimes tears off limbs, does not comply with the Geneva Convention.
      Mosin Rifle - One of the reasons for the creation of the Geneva Convention.

      M16 - Perfectly shoots small rodents.
      AK-47 - Perfectly shoots enemies of the motherland.
      Mosin Rifle - Perfectly shoots light armored vehicles.

      M16 - Once in a river, it stops working.
      AK-47 - Once in the river, it shoots anyway.
      Mosin Rifle - Once in a river, it is usually used as a paddle.

      M16 - The grenade launcher is heavy, but can put a grenade in the window for 200 meters.
      AK-47 - If anything, the grenade from the grenade launcher can be thrown into the window with your hand.
      Mosin Rifle - Which Grenade? Hit through the wall, the cartridge pierces almost a meter of brick.

      M16 - You can put a silencer, a small cartridge does not give a lot of noise.
      AK-47 - In principle, you can put a silencer, but it’s better just to press enemies to the ground with continuous fire.
      Mosin Rifle - Nafig silencer, when after the first shot will everyone go deaf?

      M16 - Weapons of defense.
      AK-47 - Weapons of attack.
      Mosin Rifle - Weapon of Victory !!!
      1. Maki Avellevich
        Maki Avellevich 1 May 2016 15: 46
        +3
        M16 - Hundreds of moving parts held together by dozens of bolts and screws.
        AK-47 - A pair of dozens of moving parts held together by a handful of rivets and the ugly seams of a drunken Russian welder.

      2. bunta
        bunta 2 May 2016 13: 45
        +12
        Quote: lelikas
        Of course "button accordion" but still funny -

        This is a shameful and moronic button accordion. Where are the ugly seams? And for a drunken welder, you can even candelabra.
        1. Black Colonel
          Black Colonel 4 May 2016 19: 43
          +3
          ... butt.
  9. PCF
    PCF 1 May 2016 09: 25
    +3
    Quote: bistrov.
    I would like to challenge the thesis of the article ... "a wooden pad to protect the shooter's hands" ... that a bullet fired from screw weapons and so is subject to deviation due to acquired right-handed (in the direction of the rifling) rotation of the bullet and air resistance (this phenomenon is called derivation)
    .... Modern rifles used for sniping, as a rule, have a bare trunk and, accordingly, increased dispersion of the bullet over long distances.


    Right now I see the birth of a new terminology in sniping and shooting sports.
    "bare barrel", it just sounds indecent! Looks, apparently even worse!
    Recall the domestic armament - SG-43 and DShK with indecent bare trunks with outrageous fins of these!
    Where is the country heading?
    1. bistrov.
      bistrov. 1 May 2016 11: 08
      +6
      I do not understand what the humor is, or the sarcasm of your "remark"? The ribbing of the barrels of the machine guns you specified contributes to its better cooling by increasing the area of ​​its contact with air. I'm talking about something completely different, about increasing the accuracy of the battle of mass rifles, for machine guns leading automatic, and often flat fire, which is of secondary importance, since the main thing for them is the density of fire. It is due to this that the greatest striking effect is achieved. Modern target rifles use barrels made using a special technology, for example, by cold forging (piece work), they are more massive, therefore less prone to vibrations, but increase the weight of the rifle by almost a whole kg. And laughing at the "bare" trunk, you are also in vain. Experts have such an expression: - bared the trunk! Those. prepared for shooting, directed the weapon towards the enemy. Yours faithfully....
      1. PCF
        PCF 1 May 2016 12: 17
        +8
        I was touched by your terms like "bare barrel, propeller weapon, deviation / derivation" instead of the common technical terms "cantilever / suspended barrel mount; rifled weapon; derivation", and also did not leave indifferent the advice on bedding the barrel of the "three" with the help of rags.
        Looking at your riot of thoughts regarding a rifle of the late 19th century, I can responsibly declare (from the height of my sixth) that in 90% of cases the capabilities of the shooter do not allow us to use the FULL TTX of the weapon - the shooter misses, not the barrel.
        Oh my god, a bullet at a distance of 300 leads to the right by 3-4 cm! Shoot while standing in the head at 200, be surprised!
        Passengers about DTK and other flame arresters / afterburners also deliver.
        ... "the muzzle brake also has the opposite effect - it sharply increases the sound of the shot" ...

        Not at all! Only redistributes the flow of supersonic gases, roughly speaking, instead of one jet forward, gives three - two to the sides and weakened forward. As it is perceived by the shooter and, as you hear in a hundred meters, is a separate topic.
        Yes, by the way, the DTC starts to work in the very end of the shot, when the bullet leaves the barrel and the gases are already flowing freely from the muzzle. The bullet leaves the barrel at supersonic sound and the effect of sharply expanding gases at the bottom of the bullet is minimized with increasing distance. But the weapon receives an impulse of return, which seeks to extinguish the DTK
        1. bistrov.
          bistrov. 1 May 2016 21: 34
          +3
          Quote: PCF
          Shoot while standing in the head at 200, be surprised!

          He fired more than once. Here we are talking about theoretical calculations, that is, a shot under ideal conditions, from perfectly debugged weapons and fixed in the machine. And so practically you can not get into a standing person from a few meters for many reasons.
          We are not talking about the compensator here, only about the muzzle brake.
          Have you personally shot a muzzle brake weapon?
          Your reasoning about the free flow of gases from the muzzle end is somewhat naive, they have the same speed as the bullet and at the moment the bullet detaches from the barrel end, it has a great influence on it, the slightest defect in the barrel, in particular, the barrel cut is not strictly at right angles, defects rifling, chamfers contribute to the improper outflow of powder gases and, accordingly, knock down the bullet from the correct path.
          1. PCF
            PCF 2 May 2016 13: 55
            +2
            Quote: bistrov.
            in particular, the barrel cut is not strictly at right angles, rifling defects, chamfers contribute to the incorrect outflow of powder gases and, accordingly, knock the bullet off the correct path.

            It is very strange to read this, remembering the "whistle" on the AKM.
            On my chalk for post-fires I made a 5mm ball chamfer "inside the barrel" and the accuracy only improved.
            I recommend taking a look at the shots of a slow-motion shot (material in the shaft) for a more correct understanding of the issue.
  10. aszzz888
    aszzz888 1 May 2016 09: 44
    +5
    They say such things - the old horse will not spoil the furrow! good
  11. ISSIDOR
    ISSIDOR 1 May 2016 10: 05
    +6
    It is used by some snipers in the border troops of the Russian Federation, so it is not removed from armament.
  12. bistrov.
    bistrov. 1 May 2016 10: 16
    +2
    In modern sniper rifles and not only (SVD, submachine gun PPSh, Sudaeva, AK-74 and others), the so-called. "muzzle brake", which significantly reduces recoil (they say, in some cases from 45 to 75%, which is hard to believe), and also affects the accuracy of the shot (stabilizes the flight of the bullet). The device of such devices is simple, they usually consist of two chambers, between the chambers and at the section of the partition there is more bullet caliber, holes are made on the sides, and in some cases, on the top and bottom of the chambers, they can be slotted and even directed backward, for a reactive effect. When the bullet flies out of the barrel, if not muzzle brake, hot powder gases fly after it, which, when flying out of the muzzle, additionally knock the bullet off the trajectory, especially if the muzzle is defective, they can form when cleaning the barrel bore, due to damage to it with a ramrod (which is why it is recommended to use a cleaning nozzle ) or under other circumstances, which creates additional scatter and deterioration in combat accuracy. In the presence of a muzzle brake, the red-hot powder gases to a greater extent go to the sides into the holes of the muzzle brake, and if the slots are swept backward, they also compensate for the recoil of the weapon due to the reactive force and, accordingly, less affect (knock) the bullet from the trajectory. But the muzzle brake also has the opposite effect - it sharply increases the sound of the shot, so in some circumstances its use is unacceptable.
    In this regard, I would like to speak about the use of silencers, or the so-called. sound moderators, their use on powerful rifles is not only difficult, but also impractical and possible only when using a cartridge with a weakened charge, i.e. when shooting no more than 150-200 meters. So, the BRAMIT silencer (Mitin brothers) was also used on the Mosin rifle, but its use was allowed only with a special cartridge with a weighed 1/3 of the normal powder charge (the rest of the cartridge case was filled with ordinary cotton wool), which ensured the defeat of the target at a distance of just over 100 meters. The creators of the BCC sniper rifle (Vintorez) found a very original solution. They placed the muffler casing directly on the barrel along its entire length, and made holes in the barrel along the entire length of the rifling, i.e. powder gases practically do not exit the muzzle end, but mostly go inside silencer. Moreover, a special 9mm cartridge, created on the basis of 7,62 mm, is also used. The cartridge of the 1943 model, as we see, is also weakened. The aiming range of the BCC rifle is 400 meters.
    1. PKK
      PKK 1 May 2016 17: 43
      0
      Somehow, someone’s hands do not reach clearly or laziness, but on a Kalash, screaming, you need a flame arrester, of course with the effect of a compensator. That would not burn in the dark.
      1. Aqela
        Aqela 3 May 2016 11: 34
        +2
        If my sclerosis does not change me, PBBS is used to "extinguish the flame" - a device for silent and flameless shooting, in common parlance - "a silencer". It seems like for AKM and AK-74 there is such a thing for a very long time and requires the use of special ammunition, which reduces the accuracy and power of the shot, making it useful at a distance of up to 200 meters (for all "Vintorez" there - a maximum of 400 meters) ...
        The flame extinguisher, as far as I know, is not used in order "not to burn in the dark", but so that the muzzle flame does not blind the fighter at night or at dusk ...
        Those. Strictly speaking, you are not raising the question correctly. What are you actually talking about? belay And what do you want to "scream" about? request fool
    2. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 3 May 2016 13: 04
      0
      Quote: bistrov.
      So on the Mosin rifle also used a muffler BRAMIT (brothers Mitins),


      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 3 May 2016 17: 48
        +2
        [quote = Bad_gr] [quote = bistrov.] So the Mosin rifle also used a BRAMIT silencer (Mitin brothers), [/ quote]


        PS
        The third time I redo my comment, does not want to insert a photo.
        1. BARKHAN
          BARKHAN 4 May 2016 12: 06
          +2
          Well, for connoisseurs there’s still interesting ... a grenade launcher on a mosquito ... A Dyakonov’s gun grenade launcher
        2. BARKHAN
          BARKHAN 4 May 2016 12: 12
          +3
          And also - Nayman-Shavgulidze's mortar mortar
    3. bunta
      bunta 3 May 2016 20: 10
      +1
      Quote: bistrov.
      But the muzzle brake has a reverse effect - it dramatically increases the sound of a shot


      This is only in self-made DTK.
  13. Monster_Fat
    Monster_Fat 1 May 2016 11: 05
    +7
    Many, here experts in "sniper shooting" forget that the "mosinka" is an "infantry" rifle and ... no more. That is, the weapon is purely utilitarian, and even designed for the far from the best in terms of accuracy of processing and execution of the capabilities of Russian, and then early Soviet production (I generally "keep quiet" about military production and assembly).
    1. Verdun
      Verdun 1 May 2016 11: 22
      +12
      I had an opportunity to compare "Mosinka", a hunting rifle "Tiger" from forty years ago and "Tiger" released a couple of years ago. If we talk about quality, the comparison is clearly not in favor of the latter.
      1. Basil50
        Basil50 1 May 2016 12: 05
        +6
        In those days when the Mosin rifle was developed and adopted, RUSSIA was an advanced country, both in terms of technology and in terms of weapons production. Production in RUSSIA was under tight control and not everything was allowed to be produced, some technologies were transferred abroad together with an order for production and, naturally, with payment. As a model, the company * Philips * was created under the order of lamps for the Winter Palace, received a full package of documentation for the production of lamps and prepaid. And with regard to the rifle, all contemporaries and eyewitnesses note the strange relations between Minister Vanovsky and Nagan, to the extent that the timing and test program were tailored to Nagan's wishes, and then they tried to shove him into co-authors.
        1. Aqela
          Aqela 3 May 2016 11: 43
          0
          In those days when the Mosin rifle was developed and adopted, RUSSIA was an advanced country, both in terms of technology and in terms of weapons production.

          The fact that we always had our cranes and kulibins does not at all speak of Russia at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries as an advanced, technically, country. Something you with history and industrial statistics is at odds. For information:
          Intelligence: Yegor Yakovlev answers questions about the First World War

          By the way, despite the list of wishes, lighting and other electrical equipment for the Winter Palace and other tsarist "summer cottages" were still made not by the Putilov zvod or someone else from the harsh Russian, but by the Dutch Philips and the North American GE ...
          By the way, the accuracy of the "mosinka" is still by no means superior neither the Mauser rifle nor Lee Endfield.
          So please do not wishful thinking. No.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. Vladimirets
        Vladimirets 1 May 2016 14: 21
        0
        Quote: Verdun
        If we talk about quality, the comparison is clearly not in favor of the latter.

        The quality of what?
        1. Verdun
          Verdun 1 May 2016 19: 00
          0

          The quality of what?
          "Tiger" quality. The cuts are like scratching with a needle, the metal is of lower quality and worse processed. At the same time, the owner claimed that he chose the one that was better out of the four barrels. Yes, you go to forum.guns.ru, where people write a lot on this topic. It is difficult to tell how good the bluing is, this time will tell. On the other hand, it does not particularly affect the range and accuracy of the shot.
          1. The comment was deleted.
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      4. bistrov.
        bistrov. 1 May 2016 22: 01
        +8
        Quote: Verdun
        I had an opportunity to compare "Mosinka", "Tiger" hunting rifle from forty years ago

        The highest quality mosquitoes produced in Tsarist times until 1914. Then there were very strict acceptance conditions, military representatives did not depart one iota from the established rules. With the outbreak of war, the rules weakened somewhat; weapons were scarce. It was quite decent quality and Soviet rifles made until about 1939, there were high-quality rifles and until 1942 with barrels from state stock. After 1942, the quality of weapons dropped sharply, the barrels withstood no more than 400 shots and went out of order, it just didn't make sense to make high-quality weapons, if the soldier on the front line lived no more than 2 months, he did not have time to fire 400 shots. Thousands of rifles were out of order, they were harassed by explosions, direct hits, etc. But all the weapons on the battlefield were carefully assembled, sent to the factories where it was being repaired, one of two, three was assembled, the broken parts were changed, they led to a normal battle, and again they were sent to the front. So the cycle went on throughout the war. In 1944, the production of the mosquito was discontinued, a carbine with an integral bayonet, also of rather poor quality, began to be produced instead. What do you want? There was a struggle for survival, who wins! He defeated the USSR, his system was more tenacious than Germany. The USSR alone produced 12 million rifles, and Germany, for which all of Europe worked, only 6, so it constantly lacked small arms. And that was one of the reasons for our victory.
        1. Aqela
          Aqela 3 May 2016 12: 06
          +2
          if the soldier on the front line lived no more than 2 months, he did not have time to fire 400 shots.

          You, sir, argued some nonsense. As far as I remember, the standard ammunition for the infantryman was 120 rounds. In your opinion, it turns out that in two months at the front line it is impossible to spend 3 BC? Such a remark would be true for the rear service (guarding the airfield, shooting only in the fire training classes, you won’t spend just a few months on the design bureau), but it seems that they used mainly carbines to supply such services ...
          And about 400 shots of the resource - "link to the studio" Maybe you lost a zero along the way? And then I more met tsiferki from 12.000 to 50.000 resource shots ...
          As a link:
          http://piterhunt.ru/scripts/forum/archive/index.php/t-7517.html?s=5725912e654ac2
          5e0028e54f018c730b

          Where it is said, in particular:
          morasar
          14.07.2006, 09: 15
          Who can really tell the resource of the trunk of a three-line. And then the information I received is very diverse, from 4000 shots to almost 50000
          Starina Henk 14.07.2006/09/41, XNUMX:XNUMX
          Yes, you can shoot as much as you like, another thing is whether you get there. From my own experience I will say that you should not take a carbine issued during the war years. Then barrels were made of what will have, right up to reinforcing steel. Real shot without loss of accuracy 2-2.5 thousand shots. The rest is fantastic. I really have a trunk with TOZ-13, native, military, died on 500 shots.
          for - 14.07.2006/14/40, XNUMX:XNUMX
          Five to seven thousand precision shooting with proper care. For hunting purposes, enough for 10000, 12000 thousand. All the same, the trunk will disappear not from the shot, but from not proper care.!
          Leshii - 14.07.2006/16/10, XNUMX:XNUMX
          Absolutely right! With good care, men have been quietly hunting for decades, that with KO, that with a three-ruler, well, if they would * end a trunk for a season. The trunk is unchromic - it is often necessary to clean, protect from moisture. Tovarisch paras *** ski to SKS 51 g-in with an unchromed trunk belonged - also the trunk finished. Well, the armor-piercing cartridges - the bullet head is black with red, they quickly kill the barrel.
          GEORGE - 14.07.2006/18/11, XNUMX:XNUMX
          According to AKM, which instead of the AK-47 from the beginning of the 50s has been in service, the manufacturer has guaranteed a shot at 25 (according to M.T. Kalashnikov personally). It is connected with the unification of this in detail with the PKK, and for the machine gun the customer's requirement for shooting was just that. But this is a chrome barrel and technology of the 000s, that is, the resource of the three-line can not be above this figure. The weapons of military release were really not of very high condition, so more than 50-2000 thousand are unlikely. The most important thing is of course the quality of care - the barrel is not chrome-plated and must be cleaned after firing at least three times during the week and every time after going out in wet and humid weather.
          for - 14.07.2006/18/44, XNUMX:XNUMX
          : beerchug: Like all weapons, and especially rifled ones, KO-44 (mosquito) requires regular and gentle cleaning. The main mistake is that they do not clean from the receiver but from the barrel (barrel), which leads to grinding and loss of accuracy. EE (accuracy) can be restored by drilling the end of the barrel with a drill with a diameter of 8,2-8,5 mm to a depth of 3-4 cm. necessarily on a lathe, not with a drill ... 90% of the weapons of hunters do not shoot and 1500-2000 shots, as it suits only in scrap because of not timely and incorrect cleaning ...

          Something like this. 2000, but not 400! fool
  14. Verdun
    Verdun 1 May 2016 11: 07
    +8
    A curious fact. At one point on the platform, the metro argued with a friend about which weapon has the advantage of firing at long distances - Mosinka or SVD. A mountain friend stood behind the SVD. The conversation was accidentally heard by an officer standing nearby, who happened to fight in Afghanistan. Politely apologizing, intervened in our argument and disappointed the supporter of SVD. He told me that in Afghanistan, dushmans, armed with the Boers and Anfields, had an advantage over our army snipers with SVD. I had to raise three-rulers from the warehouses. This made it possible to even out the situation.
    1. aleshka
      aleshka 2 May 2016 22: 28
      +1
      Lee-Enfield - this is colloquially "drill", and the fact that from the warehouses of the three-line dragged - your officer whistled! Well, although I fired a Mauser and a PPSh for fun! In the mountains they really don't like to carry extra load, and SVD is elementary easier !!!
      1. Aqela
        Aqela 3 May 2016 12: 35
        +2
        I think that if your friends are methodically "extinguished" a shooter with a lee-enfield in the mountains from a distance of 800 to 1200 meters, then you will want to carry such "extra weight" that will allow you to save your precious skin until demobilization ...
        Besides:
        SVD. Weight kg:
        4,3 (SVD, early production, without a bayonet-knife, with an optical sight, an empty magazine and a butt cheek)
        4,5 (SVD, a modern version, without a bayonet-knife, with an optical sight, an empty magazine and a butt cheek)
        4,68 (SIDS with a telescopic sight and an empty magazine)
        Mosin rifle. Weight kg: 4,5

        And where is it here SVD is easier? fool
      2. ty60
        ty60 4 May 2016 03: 20
        0
        Mauser93kurts.Karabin.
    2. Aqela
      Aqela 3 May 2016 12: 24
      +3
      In terms of the advantages of the "Boer" over the SVD, I also heard from the veterans of the Afghan war, and from representatives of various military professions - from an ordinary paratrooper to an artillery officer.
      I think that a few facts play a role.
      In particular, I allow myself to reason:
      1) the British 7,71 cartridge was still somewhat more powerful,
      http://www.megasword.ru/index.php?pg=838

      2) the quality of arms production in Britain and Germany was, on average, higher than in Russia,
      3) the culture of caring for weapons and means of care was higher (how was Leskov's? "They don't clean guns with bricks"), although the question is: how good was the care of weapons among the Afghan highlanders? ..
      4) the quality of the ammunition was very significantly different (a small share of Lend-Lease during the Second World War was represented by the supply of gunpowder to the USSR sad )
      5) Dushmans often fired from top to bottom, yet it’s technically a little easier to shoot ...
      6) the practice of shooting from 10-12 years old with the skill of careful use of ammunition and the cult of careful care of firearms, passing from father to son, still gives a higher level of training than training an army sniper for a couple of months with the issuance of a "breech barrel". .. One of the familiar snipers complained: "You just shoot a rifle at yourself, some officer comes up and asks to let you shoot and all the settings are knocked down to hell."
      7) I think that sniper variants of "mosinka" were taken from the warehouses more, in which the trunks are better and the quality of the battle is improved.
      Something like this ... request hi
      1. bunta
        bunta 3 May 2016 12: 47
        +1
        Quote: Aqela
        1) the British 7,71 cartridge was still somewhat more powerful,

        And if you are not too lazy to look at the wiki?
        Quote: Aqela
        2) the quality of arms production in Britain and Germany was, on average, higher than in Russia,

        What years? Drill release or SVD?
        Quote: Aqela
        6) practice of shooting ... with the skill of careful consumption of ammunition and the cult of careful maintenance of firearms,

        That is, the bearded dushmans cleaned their weapons and looked after him, and the Soviet soldiers thought only of vodka and women, and they put big and thick on the care of weapons?
        1. Aqela
          Aqela 3 May 2016 20: 45
          +1
          On point 2.
          I think that right after the Napoleonic wars, the quality of the weapon finish was better. By the way, name, for example, which Russian inventors of the rifle were adopted before Mosin? Krnka? Berdan? Winchester? Do you also need to recall the revolvers of Nagant and Smith-and-Wesson? Machine guns Maxim, Shosh, Lewis - all Russian? Didn't the British make a very good cruiser "Varyag" for us? All the aviation of the 1st World War (except for Sikorsky who later emigrated) was not Anglo-French?
          On point 1: in most sources this first cartridge is indicated, similar to the Russian 19th century (with a rounded tip), and to the mosquito indicate the data of the cartridge of 1908, Fedorov, which was easier and faster.
          If we take the cartridges of the 20th century (by the way, on the wiki), the mosquito comes out with an energy of shot of 3380 J, and that of the Li-enfield 4160 J. Still more. So it is you who should ask what years of production you mean.
          To point 6: yes, at the age of 18 he thinks a lot about women and vodka, much more than at the age of 12. And, as a rule, they recall the serviceability of weapons after the next pendal from a sergeant or foreman of a company. "The hedgehog is a proud bird, until you kick it well, it won't fly!" By the way, statistics of survival in hostilities speaks for this, by the way: young people (from 18 to 25 years old) die more. One of the reasons - instead of digging trenches, I want to pamper or to hunt the nurse or other female person.
          People have been aware of this for a long time and begin to teach military art from about seven years old. Samurai (and in the Middle Ages and not only them) were considered good warriors by the years 13-14. Everything was in order with the skills, only the muscle strength was not enough for full quality. Against the background of puberty, muscle mass begins to build up, which rests on the already finished worked out military equipment ... request
          The fact that in the Red Army the SVT-40 turned out to be a very underestimated rifle precisely because of the low technical culture speaks about the skills of caring for weapons; while it was very much appreciated by the marines, border guards, i.e. where the level of technical training was higher, and the Nazis generally adopted it. An example of FN FAL, where the mechanics of SVT-40 are stripped off almost 100%, also speaks of the good properties of the "light", in good hands and with proper care ...
          1. bunta
            bunta 3 May 2016 21: 18
            +2
            Quote: Aqela
            If we take the cartridges of the 20 century (by the way, on the wiki), the mosquito comes out with the energy of the shot 3380 J, and the Li-enfield 4160 J. Still more.

            According to; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee%E2%80%93Enfield

            Lee-Enfield used .303 Mk VII SAA Ball:

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.303_British

            in which, depending on the mass of the bullet, the energy is indicated in the range from 3,265 to 3,574 J.

            Moreover, the energies are calculated for speeds above 761 ms. Passport speed for rifle decree 744 MS that is even less.

            Is your surname Kuptsov?
  15. Monster_Fat
    Monster_Fat 1 May 2016 11: 57
    +8
    Your officer is "lying." No one in Afghanistan massively returned the "mosinka" (well, perhaps, that isolated cases) there has always been used and, moreover, successfully SVD-only that the sight was modernized, both in the optical part and in terms of the reliability of its attachment, taking into account the experience of combat use. "Boer" - "Lee-Metford" significantly surpasses the "mosinka" both in terms of cartridge power and accuracy due to a more accurate execution of the bore, a heavier barrel and, as they say here, better protection of the barrel from vibrations with barrel linings. However ... Afghans have a "cute habit" of cleaning their weapons with dust (due to the lack of something else), and therefore, over the decades of such "courtship", the channels on many Metfords and Enfields have been "polished" to such an extent that the rifling in them is only “guessed.” But thanks to the local culture, in which a man practically grows up and does not part with his weapon all his life, gets used to it and perfectly knows the peculiarities of shooting from it, the Afghans shoot very accurately from such weapons. I personally saw how one "Bedouin" on a dispute from a "barrel" practically "smooth" -polished by "cleaning", hit a brick and a plate about 300 meters away. And about the "mosinki" and their quality ... somehow a long time ago on service carried out an inventory of one about the warehouse and there were outdated weapons: both ours and German and Austrian. So, we managed to look and compare. They compared (though not rifles but carbines) - "98", "Mannlicher" and "Mosin". Everyone immediately noted that in the boxes, none of our carbines, even in length and in the size of the box, were identical to the other - there were differences everywhere, not to mention the obscene execution in terms of processing and bluing. But "98", and especially "Mannlicher" were like "twins brothers" and high-quality performance. Personally, I then liked the "Mannlicher" - lightweight, comfortable, applied .... IMHO, of course.
    1. Verdun
      Verdun 1 May 2016 12: 31
      +4
      Your officer is "lying"
      Firstly, no one talks about mass use. But, with the proper skill of the shooter, the Mosin rifle allows you to hit the target at a greater range than the SVD. For comparison:
      Sighting range SVD - 1200 m (with an open sight).
      The aiming range of the Mosin rifle is 2000 m. It is clear that without optics no one will shoot at such distances, but still.
      At the same time, I did not claim that the three-ruler is superior to Boer or Manliher. But in comparison with these rifles and the SVD, it doesn’t look the best. And in general, I have a good attitude towards the Dragunov rifle. A worthy weapon, but it’s not worth idealizing it.
      1. bistrov.
        bistrov. 1 May 2016 22: 20
        +1
        Quote: Verdun
        The aiming range of the Mosin rifle - 2000 m

        The VM sighting bar is graduated at 1920 meters. But already at a distance of 500-600 meters, getting into a standing person even from a well-functioning rifle without optics is very problematic, but at a distance of 800 meters the front sight just covers a person. As for firing at 2000 meters, this means concentrated firing, that is, firing in volleys, the only way to hit the target at this distance.
        1. Aqela
          Aqela 3 May 2016 12: 41
          +1
          By the way, on Lee-Anfield for such a volley fire, a special sight was often made, attached to the side.
          In addition, they forget (even in reference books) that until 1917, the sights of "mosink" were marked not in meters, but in arshins (which is very close to the length of a step and was quite understandable to any soldier from the peasants), and the sight was up to 3000 arshins, not 2000 meters.
          1. Aqela
            Aqela 3 May 2016 21: 06
            0
            This is in terms of the aiming range of the Mosinka.
            http://bergenschild.ru/Reconstruction/archive/mosina_vintovka/Index.htm
            Rifle sight arr. 1891 frame type {Fig. 123). It consists of an aiming pad /, which slides with its groove on the trapezoidal protrusion from the barrel and is soldered with tin, an aiming frame 2, an aiming clamp 3, two latches 4, two caps of latches, the axis of the aiming frame 5, the spring of the aiming frame 6 and its screw 7.



            The aiming block has two racks with five cut out steps. On the side of the left strut against each step are the numbers 4, 6, 8, 10 and 12, corresponding to the divisions of the sight (in hundreds of steps).

            A sighting frame spring is placed between the posts, and the sighting frame itself is fixed on the ears on the axis 5.

            The aiming frame has a certain curvature, which was done for a more uniform arrangement of the divisions of the sight due to the increase in the aiming range from 2700 to 3200 steps, introduced in 1910 together with the use of a pointed bullet instead of a blunt one. The sighting frame has two longitudinal ridges with serifs for the clamps of the clamp and the back of the mane with a slot for aiming. On the bottom side of the frame are numbers from 13 to 32 (even on the left, odd on the right) with intermediate short risks for setting the sight every 50 steps.
            Due to the fact that the barrel of a dragoon rifle is slightly shorter than the barrel of an infantry rifle, the scale of the sight of dragoon rifles is somewhat different.
    2. Mooh
      Mooh 1 May 2016 13: 06
      +3
      not one of our carbines, even in length and size of the box, was identical to the other — there were differences everywhere, not to mention the obscene execution in terms of processing and burnishing

      The quality of the three rulers is very dependent on the year of manufacture.
    3. Vladimirets
      Vladimirets 1 May 2016 14: 24
      +1
      Quote: Monster_Fat
      They compared (though not rifles but carbines) - "98", "Mannlicher" and "Mosin". Everyone immediately noted that in the boxes, none of our carbines, even in length and in the size of the box, were identical to the other - there were differences everywhere, not to mention the obscene execution in terms of processing and bluing. But "98", and especially "Mannlicher" were like "twins brothers" and high-quality performance.

      If the release of the war years, then there is nothing surprising here, given the quality of the workforce of us and the Germans in the Second World War.
    4. Beefeater
      Beefeater 1 May 2016 15: 56
      0
      Interestingly, I didn’t know about dusting. Are there really such i-diots ?!
      1. Shishiga
        Shishiga 3 May 2016 13: 07
        0
        We were no easier in the Second World War. Why did the infantry howl through one about the unreliability of the SVT, and in the marines and the sniper they prayed for it ??? I will modestly keep silent about the SS units and just the Wehrmacht (or tell me - there wasn’t one of ours and the trophy was enough).
  16. Monster_Fat
    Monster_Fat 1 May 2016 12: 49
    +2
    Quote: Verdun
    The aiming range of the Mosin rifle - 2000 m

    laughing wink
    1. Verdun
      Verdun 1 May 2016 13: 02
      +2
      My dad was in the fifties was a champion among students of Leningrad in shooting from small things. On an argument from a three-ruler, without any optics, it fell into the neck of a rail from five hundred meters. I probably won’t be able to, because shooting accurately is a talent. I shoot well, but not a master. Lobaev’s rifleman and rifle will not help. The length of the barrel of the Mosin rifle is 800 mm, for the SVD - 620. And this is with the same ammunition.
      1. Vladimirets
        Vladimirets 1 May 2016 14: 31
        +2
        Quote: Verdun
        On an argument from a three-ruler, without any optics, it fell into the neck of a rail from five hundred meters.

        From the first shot? Let you not believe it. The width of the rail neck is about 10cm. The scatter of the three-ruler over this distance is about 10 cm, and even microscopic, but the errors of aiming from an open sight, even if your father has eyesight like an eagle. request A series, of course, by chance, you can get, but to be sure? And her, this neck, is it generally visible?
        1. Verdun
          Verdun 1 May 2016 15: 41
          +2
          At one time I had the opportunity to read a book, even with "yaty", about the champions of pre-revolutionary Russia in shooting pistols and revolvers. In the photographs there are mustachioed, solidly built guys in hats and jackets. Unfortunately, I don't remember the names. Most used Nagant. An example was given of marksmanship. A pot of geraniums was placed on the windowsill of a room with an area of ​​about 30 square meters. The arrow was placed in the center of the room and allowed to see. After - they blindfolded and untwisted. They opened the window so that the shooter could feel the draft. The craftsmen hit the pot with the first shot.
          1. Vladimirets
            Vladimirets 1 May 2016 16: 03
            +3
            Quote: Verdun
            A pot of geraniums was placed on the windowsill of a room measuring about 30 square meters. The arrow was placed in the center of the room and allowed to see. After - blindfolded and untwisted. They opened the window so that the shooter could feel a draft. Masters hit the pot with the first shot.

            It's a little different, don’t you? Spatial orientation, vestibular apparatus, some luck. request
            Quote: Verdun
            a book, even with "yaty", about the champions of pre-revolutionary Russia in shooting pistols and revolvers.

            Not a very serious source, what do you think? In general, and on YouTube there are many videos with entertaining circus shooting, but this is not the norm and the spectacular spectacle is often very easily explained from a material point of view. Why did I doubt your story, because I myself have been dealing with shooting, including bullet shooting. Even if you imagine that it is extremely accurate to aim (although the front sight at such a distance is not just a rail that closes a person), the spread will not allow you to confidently hit the target (10cm). Later I saw your comment:
            Quote: Verdun
            I myself from AKM put eighty percent hits in the "nine" of the chest target at 300 meters. Without optics.

            The diameter of the "nine" in the target No. 4 is 20cm. The shooting manual says that when bringing the AKM to a normal fight at 100m, it is considered that a normal fight is to lay four holes in a 15cm circle. And this is at 100m. I will not argue, maybe you are a first-class shooter, and the assault rifles from which you fired are completely perfect, but also somehow doubtful.
            1. Verdun
              Verdun 1 May 2016 16: 19
              +1
              I will not argue, maybe you are a first-class shooter
              God be with you! I've met people who shoot much better than me. For example, my great-grandmother at a gallop twice got from a revolver into a thrown tin can. Even Italian newspapers, they say, wrote about this. She rested there at the resort, even before the revolution. And one craftsman in front of my eyes at a distance of fifty meters from the SCS "hammered" three nails into the log - weave. In a row, without a miss. I understand that even because of the quality and the difference in the weighed amount of gunpowder, I should not have hit. And he took it and hit it!
              1. Vladimirets
                Vladimirets 1 May 2016 16: 25
                +2
                Quote: Verdun
                And one craftsman in front of my eyes at a distance of fifty meters from the SCS "hammered" three nails into the log - weave. In a row, without a miss.

                Damn, good already, I already laughed. laughing
                Quote: Verdun
                God be with you!

                Thanks, I hope.
              2. Grim Reaper
                Grim Reaper 1 May 2016 23: 50
                +9
                Doctor, I'm 80 and I can’t with a woman.
                - Age, grandfather ..
                - And to the neighbor 85 and he says that every day ..
                - Well, you say .... :)))
              3. Signore Tomato
                Signore Tomato 3 May 2016 22: 07
                0
                Interestingly, my hitting 4 pushpins from 4 rounds by 25 meters from a small piece will this "know" also be considered a fantasy?

                When the leader didn’t go away for a short time, I argued with my comrades that I would unfasten the target fixed with clerical buttons from the first 4 shots.
                I bet. I hit the buttons, but they remained in place - it was necessary to get into the centers of the buttons for the round to fall off. But all 4 buttons were "hit" and quite confidently - without snot - this is when the target is barely touched by a bullet.
                A small thing, of course, without optics.
                1. Vladimir54
                  Vladimir54 8 March 2021 10: 26
                  0
                  small - a loose concept - if you don't name a model, I don't really believe it. And so yes, MC-! 2, any competition, if the result on mv-6 is less than 450 points (60 shots - prone from kneeling, distance - 50 m.) - this is conventionally 45 dozen, about the size of a button, there is nothing to do at competitions above the regional ones. Greetings from the USSR.
            2. voyaka uh
              voyaka uh 1 May 2016 18: 15
              0
              "that when bringing AKM to a normal battle at 100m is considered,
              that a normal fight is to place four holes in a 15cm circle. And this is 100m "///

              It is realistic. We have a normal shooting distance with the M-16
              (with a conventional diopter sight) was considered 150 m.
              Further 250 was not recommended to open fire.

              Militants of all stripes, as a rule, did not open fire from AKM from more than 100 m.
              1. Vladimirets
                Vladimirets 1 May 2016 18: 36
                0
                Quote: voyaka uh
                Militants of all stripes, as a rule, did not open fire from AKM from more than 100 m.

                That is, they read the manual. smile
                1. Vladimirets
                  Vladimirets 1 May 2016 19: 17
                  +1
                  Judging by the cons, "Verdun" is a balabol who did not hold a weapon in his hands. As they say, to each his own. smile
                  1. Vladimirets
                    Vladimirets 1 May 2016 20: 00
                    0
                    Everything merged. I won’t be surprised when I was added to the emergency. Verdun, ay, add, you balabolov in an emergency full.
    2. martin-159
      martin-159 1 May 2016 15: 01
      +2
      At 2000m. This is a volley shooting at a group target.
  17. Monster_Fat
    Monster_Fat 1 May 2016 13: 19
    +5
    "Ostap" carried. "Sorry, I do not want to offend you, but I have heard a lot of" hunting stories "in my life and therefore ... Do you have any idea what a distance of" 500 meters "is? Yes, you are at such a distance, you cannot even see this very "neck of the rail" without the "optics", not just to get into it.
    1. Verdun
      Verdun 1 May 2016 13: 27
      0
      Yes, you at such a distance, you cannot even see this "rail neck" without the "optics", not even to get into it.
      I can tell you a secret. My father had farsightedness, and quite strong.)) At the same time, I myself from AKM put eighty percent hits in the "nine" of the chest target at 300 meters. Without optics. Of course, the weapon must be well-aimed and get used to.
      1. Grim Reaper
        Grim Reaper 2 May 2016 23: 28
        +2
        At three hundred. In the chest. 8 out of 10 (yes pofik that at 9ku. The main thing - you get ..) From AKM. Yes pofik with optics or without. Why are you still not in the Olympic shooting team?
  18. andrewkor
    andrewkor 1 May 2016 13: 43
    +1
    Regarding the comparison of weapons of approximately the same "age" and purpose, I will give some figures for the most famous and "controversial" samples: Mannlicher 1889, barrel length 770mm., Cartridge 8X50R, Lee-Endfield 1885, 810,7,71Х56Р, Mauser "98 "1898", 740,7,92Х57, Mosin1908 \ 1930,729,7,62Х53Р., Springfield 1917,660,7,62Х63.
    1. Verdun
      Verdun 1 May 2016 13: 48
      0
      Mosin 1908 \ 1930,729,7,62Kh53R
      These are late and so-called "dragoon" rifles. "Infantry" first issues had a barrel of 800 mm.
  19. Basil50
    Basil50 1 May 2016 15: 46
    +4
    * They are touched * by the opinions that * there, everything is better behind the hill *, during WWI in the USA they could not accept the order for rifles and machine guns due to * excessive requirements *. Quality requirements within RUSSIA were even higher.
  20. Beefeater
    Beefeater 1 May 2016 16: 02
    +4
    Actually, what is the argument.
    There are unique arrows that are called from God. They can get from 2km.
    But the usual shooter is usually up to 800 m.
    1. Verdun
      Verdun 1 May 2016 19: 16
      0
      There are unique shooters ... But an ordinary shooter is usually up to 800 m
      Here I agree with you. Yes, and 800 meters - quite a lot. And to shoot accurately is really more instinct, as the PKK writes below.
    2. Grim Reaper
      Grim Reaper 2 May 2016 23: 40
      +1
      There are. No options. But unique shooters must have unique weapons. From the serial, as it were, the successful shot at 800 is simply an accident.
  21. Chisayna
    Chisayna 1 May 2016 17: 15
    +14
    Yes, invite any Evenki who grew up in the taiga to compete in shooting. Well, at least from KO-44. And make sure that you are far from them. At least how many clever words you can bring: derivation-approbation. And without these words they will shoot better than any of you .And fairy tales about grandmothers with trellis will not tell.
    1. Verdun
      Verdun 1 May 2016 17: 25
      +1
      .And without these words they will shoot better than any of you
      So the guy I wrote about, the one who hammered nails, was just an Evenk. The hunter is a fisherman.
      1. Zoldat_A
        Zoldat_A 2 May 2016 05: 22
        +4
        Quote: Verdun
        .And without these words they will shoot better than any of you
        So the guy I wrote about, the one who hammered nails, was just an Evenk. The hunter is a fisherman.

        With great farsightedness .... And derivation in your pocket ....
  22. PKK
    PKK 1 May 2016 18: 10
    +1
    Quote: Vladimirets

    From the first shot? Let you not believe it. The width of the rail neck is about 10cm. The scatter of the three-ruler over this distance is about 10 cm, and even microscopic, but the errors of aiming from an open sight, even if your father has eyesight like an eagle. request A series, of course, by chance, you can get there, but to be sure? And her, this neck, is it generally visible?

    Dear! Masters do not fall from the vigilance of the eye. There is such a milestone, such a level when the master goes into instinct. For example. Aiming at a coin, a fly, a barrel walks and it is clear that it is impossible to get, an obvious miss. But a shot and a bullet knock a coin. So but they shoot, instinctively calling Gunfighters of the Wild West. At that level they do not aim, nature itself directs the bullet.
    1. Basil50
      Basil50 1 May 2016 18: 23
      +5
      Contemporaries about those whose name is * gunfire *, claimed that almost all of their victims were killed in the back, this is from reports on the payment of the shooting of bandits. Accuracy in such a shot is secondary. It was later in * kin * all the cowboys became super-sharp and super noble.
      1. Zoldat_A
        Zoldat_A 2 May 2016 05: 59
        +5
        Quote: Vasily50
        Contemporaries about those whose name is * gunfire *, argued that practically all their victims were killed in the back, this is from reports on the payment of the shooting of bandits. Accuracy in such a shot is secondary. It was later in * kin * all the cowboys became super-sharp and super noble.

        So those gunfighters earned money, and labor, as a rule, is much less romantic than any movie. I think that about how it was shown by Sergio Leone, those shooters thought the least and they looked little like C. Eastwood. Just a job. Specific, but work ...

        It is unlikely that there is as much romance in sailing on a real sailing ship as in the movie "Fifteen-Year-Old Captain" or "Moby Dick" - but there is much more hard sea work than in any movie ... Although I don’t know for sure, I know ships as "You" - at the level of river trams and pleasure boats ... hi
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Vladimirets
      Vladimirets 1 May 2016 19: 37
      0
      Quote: PKK
      Dear! Masters do not fall from the vigilance of the eye. There is such a milestone, such a level when the master goes into instinct. For example. Aiming at a coin, a fly, a barrel walks and it is clear that it is impossible to get, an obvious miss. But a shot and a bullet knock a coin. So they shoot, instinctively calling Gunfighters of the Wild West. At that level they don’t aim, nature itself directs the bullet

      Have you seen this in real life? Or read books? Finish with wine, drink together. wink
    4. Grim Reaper
      Grim Reaper 2 May 2016 23: 15
      +1
      And they also know how to catch bullets with their teeth, punch their heads in a concrete wall and 30 virgins per night. I saw it myself. By ren-tv. :)))) Gunfighters of the wild west. EPT ... :)))
  23. Chisayna
    Chisayna 1 May 2016 18: 27
    +2
    Yes there is such, how many times it happened, a hare in a jump, a duck flies, a maral through a bush on the run.
    1. Zoldat_A
      Zoldat_A 2 May 2016 05: 28
      +4
      Quote: Chisain
      Yes there is how many times it happenedhare in the jump, duck duck, maral through the bush to runa.

      Crow in flight. And the bullet random. Nobody even looked towards the crow random queue. For almost 40 years I’ve been surprised - it was necessary for that raven to fly to its misfortune precisely there !!!!! A meter to the left, to the right would fly and live ... laughing
      1. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 2 May 2016 13: 13
        +1
        At the Krasnopolyanskaya hydroelectric station (Sochi), there was a case when a departmental security guard fired a warning shot and fell into a high-voltage wire (at the height of the mast). The wire did not interrupt, but the wire itself acquired a ledge, which was clearly visible from the ground. Alas, I don’t remember what it was shot with.
      2. aleshka
        aleshka 2 May 2016 22: 42
        0
        before the withdrawal of troops from Germany, a pair of ensigns decided to hunt! a small town, a small lake nearby, dark ducks, well, not from Kalash, but they were afraid to shoot them !!! they bought all the shots in the town, drove the tank to the lake, picked up the cannon, put 30 kilograms into the barrel, blazed up with old fur coats, and how DALY !!!! Not missed AT ALL !!! a week the whole regiment ate ducklings! and make a reservation, they raised the ducks all the same, a queue from the machine! this is HUNTING! ALL WITH HOLIDAYS !!
        1. Svidetel 45
          Svidetel 45 3 May 2016 23: 40
          0
          Yes, here the real hunters gathered, a fantasy above the roof.
      3. Grim Reaper
        Grim Reaper 2 May 2016 23: 19
        +3
        Yes, as one can not be cared for from eight trunks in a flock. :) (from a joke about drunken hunters) :)
      4. 97110
        97110 3 May 2016 21: 40
        0
        Quote: Zoldat_A
        And the bullet is random.

        I remembered ... I shoot at the grunt. Past .. Surprising miss on the close and slowly flying duck and a strange expression on its face. It seems that she was very surprised. I am conducting an audit of cartridges in a bandoleer. He shot a bullet. Surely, the duck never heard a 12 k bullet flying close by.
        1. Bad_gr
          Bad_gr 5 May 2016 10: 14
          0
          I watched in Afghanistan (Kabul, backwaters from the river from where water was pumped from the wells to the Army headquarters) a fighter threw a grenade in the middle of a flock of ducks sitting on the water. Before the throw, he held the grenade a little in his hand, so when he threw it, it only pulled off by touching the water. Not a single duck was killed. The flock starred and sat a little further, where they had already shot with the BMP-1, with the gun. The result was the same.
  24. aliatum
    aliatum 1 May 2016 19: 47
    +3
    ... "caliber 7,62 mm (in old measures of length - three Russian lines" ... Correct if not, the line is 1/10 inch (25,4 / 10 = 2,54 2,54 * 3 = 7,62 , XNUMX), why "three Russians ..." I thought inches in our armament from the artillery of the fleet where, once upon a time, British measures were taken as a basis.
    1. V.ic
      V.ic 1 May 2016 22: 03
      +3
      Quote: aliatum
      the line is 1/10 inch

      Great! There is only one step left before the "invention" of the pixel ... go for it!
    2. Zoldat_A
      Zoldat_A 2 May 2016 05: 41
      +6
      Quote: aliatum
      ... "caliber 7,62 mm (in old measures of length - three Russian lines" ... Correct if not, the line is 1/10 inch (25,4 / 10 = 2,54 2,54 * 3 = 7,62 , XNUMX), why "three Russians ..." I thought inches in our armament from the artillery of the fleet where, once upon a time, British measures were taken as a basis.

      "Love Wikipedia - the source of knowledge!" (C) B. B. Nadezhdin laughing
  25. Bredovich705
    Bredovich705 1 May 2016 21: 11
    +2
    Not guys, I won’t give you a machine gun!
  26. cth; fyn
    cth; fyn 1 May 2016 22: 14
    0
    Nothing new, Shpakovsky did it even better, although this is not exactly his profile ... But you can feel the hand of a professional historian, the quality of a pancake!
  27. vair
    vair 1 May 2016 22: 38
    +1
    Quote: Igor39
    Well happy birthday past! 125 years in service, normal and still in service.

    Until now, in the mountains on the hunt, the thing was not overlooked, the SVD didn’t lie close. Believe me, I know what I'm saying. There was a lot of time for comparison!
  28. vair
    vair 1 May 2016 23: 39
    +5
    Quote: Verdun
    There are unique shooters ... But an ordinary shooter is usually up to 800 m
    Here I agree with you. Yes, and 800 meters - quite a lot. And to shoot accurately is really more instinct, as the PKK writes below.

    I fully agree with you, I knew one hunter, he died, they didn’t divide the little gold with the rangers, they found it in a river with a scarred neck, but this is a different story! So, as he had to sit at the table with him, he couldn’t bring a glass to his mouth splashing out, no, he was not an alcoholic, the disease is such. But knowing him as a cool shooter, I asked him how you can shoot with such a shake, let alone hit? He says, yes it’s very simple, when I shoot, I freeze, I did not believe then! But a month later - I was convinced of this! I once sat on a pin, and admired the beauty of the mountains, and deer on the other side of the gorge. suddenly I look one lanka jumped, rolled, then the second, the third, and then shots came to me, it was the huntsman and Kudin, that’s his name, in general I was 2200 meters from the deer, I determined through binoculars with a rangefinder, he was closer , in my opinion, nine hundred meters, but he shot from the bottom to the top, without optics, who has been to the mountains, knows the distance there is very deceptive! And he shot it with a mosquito. I agree there are few such people, but if he is a vinar, then the result will be corresponding!
  29. vik27o456
    vik27o456 2 May 2016 08: 56
    +1
    In urgent 74 76 we had snacks of mosquitoes which year I do not remember.
  30. Yarik
    Yarik 2 May 2016 11: 01
    0
    The mosquito is not bad, but ... there is 98K. wink
  31. bionik
    bionik 2 May 2016 13: 05
    +2
    Bayonet training.
  32. The comment was deleted.
  33. Sasha75
    Sasha75 2 May 2016 16: 06
    +9
    )))))))))))))))))
    1. Aqela
      Aqela 3 May 2016 13: 05
      0
      Actually! An excellent picture! good
  34. User_internet
    User_internet 2 May 2016 22: 42
    +1
    Quote: Yarik
    The mosquito is not bad, but ... there is 98K. wink

    I had to hold 98k and a three-ruler in my hands, I shot it and repeatedly, there were no rounds on it. So: I didn’t find any special advantages of it over the VM, except for the fuse. In it didn’t turn on the flag and that’s all, but pull the trigger (turn) then it’s possible but to put it back is already a problem.
    1. Aqela
      Aqela 3 May 2016 13: 07
      0
      No, of course there is a difference. For example, for the money spent on the manufacture of 98K, it was quite possible to arm half of the department with "mosinks". wink
  35. realist
    realist 3 May 2016 09: 46
    0
    Yes, good things live long and practically do not age (Colt 1911 .......), the main thing in the heat of discussion is not to forget the reason for the dispute! Happy birthday, three-ruler!
  36. SerB60
    SerB60 3 May 2016 12: 09
    -1
    Not so long ago there was a similar article. My opinion: the rifle was good at the time, and then we had a big jamb happened. They all switched to a flangeless cartridge, ours slowed down and gave out their backlog in rearmament as a merit. Like, she went through two world ones, but didn’t hang around next door and nobody exalted him? We didn’t change weapons in time and extol ... In the same way with the three-inch. Zis-3 Grabina under the shell of the 1st World Stillborn, is praised according to the same principle. The Germans had similar French trophies temporarily until they made their own. You compare the sleeves. The German gun has a much larger size than the Hrabian. And then shells to a fig in warehouses - let's rivet guns under them.
    1. 97110
      97110 3 May 2016 21: 49
      +1
      Quote: SerB60
      And then shells to a fig in warehouses - let's rivet guns under them.

      You have a question - why does the Mauser have such a strange caliber for the German army - 7,92 mm? For all kinds of mexico 6,5, and currently less effective? So also under ammunition in warehouses ...
      1. Svidetel 45
        Svidetel 45 4 May 2016 00: 01
        0
        Well, they compared a rifle and a cannon. Artillery God of War, 2 mV is no longer the era of the Napoleonic wars, it was artillery, not small arms, that determined the success of battles, due to the fact that they "saved" on shells and forced Grabin to design a cannon for a shell from the times of 1 MV, ZIS-3 according to armor-piercing was much inferior to the German 75 mm, which led to the superiority of the German modernized T-III and T-IV in tank battles over our T-34s, armed with 76 mm guns, and as a result of thousands of our tanks and crews lost. This is exactly the case when the miser pays twice.
        1. SerB60
          SerB60 4 May 2016 12: 33
          0
          Not a comparison of a rifle and a gun, but a presentation of the fact. "The miser pays twice" - that's right.
        2. The comment was deleted.
      2. SerB60
        SerB60 4 May 2016 13: 53
        -1
        The answer is: I am interested in Mexico ... But here's how our cannon was made for obsolete 76-mm shells - it's just outrageous. The belts were turned from old 47-mm naval shells, here's a 45-mm PT cannon, and the story is similar with the mosink. I am a patriot of my country, "I feel sorry for the state."
        1. Bad_gr
          Bad_gr 5 May 2016 10: 20
          0
          Quote: SerB60
          But here is how our gun for obsolete 76-mm shells did - it's just outrageous.

          And if Grabin rebuilt production to produce a gun, for which there are no shells, would it be good?

          There was a gun for this caliber (F-22USV), which was replaced by the ZIS-3 with the same capabilities, but three cheaper and more convenient to attend. What's wrong ?
          1. SerB60
            SerB60 5 May 2016 13: 40
            0
            Here (on VO) find the article "From F-22 to" Viper ". Here is the answer. There was already a shell for an anti-aircraft 76-mm cannon. By the way, the gun of the German company" Rheinmetal ". , for which there are no shells. "Who would have allowed him)). You, a little out of topic, apparently.
            1. Bad_gr
              Bad_gr 5 May 2016 14: 33
              0
              Quote: SerB60
              Here (on VO) find the article "From F-22 to" Viper ". Here is the answer. There was already a shell for an anti-aircraft 76-mm cannon. By the way, the gun of the German company" Rheinmetal ". , for which there are no shells. "Who would have allowed him)). You, a little out of topic, apparently.

              "........ Field tests of prototypes of the F-22 took place in June-July 1935. Already during the tests, the customer made adjustments to the TTT for the gun ........ In addition, it was prescribed to refuse to use gun cartridges for the gun’s armament. 1931 in favor of the three-inch cartridges arr. 1902

              In general, there were always some problems with the cartridges for the gun. The fact is that the requirement of howling the cannon and turning it into a universal howitzer gun was fulfilled, but its use on the howitzer did not give any particular advantages. ......... And the refusal of unitary loading sharply reduced the rate of fire of the 76-mm artillery system, which was considered unacceptable for divisional artillery. However, with the decision to use the cartridge in the gun mod. 1900/1902 it became possible to use in F-22 as a "howitzer with a reduced charge" shot from a regimental cannon arr. 1927, .......Therefore, in spite of the fact that such “howitzer” became half, she arranged for the leadership of the Red Army, writing off part of the headache at no particular cost.

              At the end of the first stage of testing, on July 6, 1935, Plant No. 92 received an order for the manufacture of a series of 10 guns, taking into account the wishes of the customer .......... However, the gun turned out to be rather complicated for both enterprises at that time and for three years its release plans were not consistently fulfilled.

              This was due to many factors ..... Care of the cannon in the army turned out to be much more complicated than expected. And she was not very suitable for a horse harness with six horses, having a mass of more than one and a half tons.

              All sorts of design improvements aimed at reducing the cost of production also added weight to the gun. ...... some guns, according to the acceptance certificates, had a mass of even more than 1800 kg. (ZIS-3 in combat --1200kg)

              It is interesting that for a long time the gun was not tested at all as an anti-aircraft gun, since until 1937 the POISO was not developed for it. But at the end of 1937 the F-22 was aimed at NIZenP, where she proved herself unfit for anti-aircraft fire, and, therefore, does not correspond to the class of "semi-universal ground-anti-aircraft divisional gun" ...... " http://topwar.ru/26559-iz-zhizni-gadyuki.html

              Are you talking about this gun?
              1. SerB60
                SerB60 5 May 2016 15: 28
                0
                Yeah, and about her shell. Damn, as if not banned for flood)
                1. Bad_gr
                  Bad_gr 5 May 2016 16: 22
                  0
                  Quote: SerB60
                  Damn, as if not banned for flood)

                  And where is the flood? a topic on weapons with correct and not very comparisons + related material. No ads, no showdowns, no politics. Normal debate.
              2. The comment was deleted.
          2. The comment was deleted.
  37. SerB60
    SerB60 3 May 2016 17: 22
    0
    We have a discussion of the article, well, say something, what are the disadvantages to sculpt?
  38. Buggies
    Buggies 3 May 2016 17: 31
    +1
    shot from it, return be healthy, but slaughter at least a kilometer
  39. Svidetel 45
    Svidetel 45 4 May 2016 00: 18
    0
    It is incorrect to compare the quality of German 98K and mosquitoes without taking into account the conditions of their production, look at the photographs of the Second World War, who is behind the machines and workbenches in our factories? That's right, adolescents, 15-16 years old, and the whole Europe, the plants of the Czech Republic, France and many other countries, and in Germany itself in factories from the beginning to the end of the war, until Hitler had to carry out total mobilization, worked properly for the German army qualified personnel worked. And so, by design, the mosquito is probably no worse, however, I only had to shoot it once in my life, a couple of shots from a carbine, the huntsman gave after the end of a successful hunt, the impression was a pretty strong recoil and a loud sound of a shot.
  40. SerB60
    SerB60 4 May 2016 12: 34
    0
    In addition - and where is the secret of the mosquito, the author, did you reveal it? The question has already been voiced.
  41. SerB60
    SerB60 4 May 2016 17: 32
    0
    Where are the secrets?
  42. D. Dan
    D. Dan 6 May 2016 21: 26
    0
    And yet, a bolt rifle with a heavy barrel - eh, a song. One damn EC left. Well, not to sell rifles to the people that are not distorted ... And then they drill and pin the barrel and that’s all, the three-line sinter. And so I would be the king of the hunt.
  43. User_internet
    User_internet 8 May 2016 06: 20
    0
    Quote: D. Dan
    And yet, a bolt rifle with a heavy barrel - eh, a song. One damn EC left. Well, not to sell rifles to the people that are not distorted ... And then they drill and pin the barrel and that’s all, the three-line sinter. And so I would be the king of the hunt.

    on the Internet, I read that they are again discussing the ban on the sale of weapons converted from the army (for some series of VPO and so on, got across the throat belay ) So, we will soon be happy that we are holding a rifle or a gun made of metal, real metal, and not silumin or plastic.