Military Review

About cuts and kickbacks in Tsarist Russia

323



The development of a fire control system for the battleship Borodino was the greatest task entrusted to the Institute of Fine Mechanics at the court of his Imperial Highness. The creation of machines involved the Russian Society of steam power plants. Leading research and production team, whose development has been successfully used on warships around the world. The weapons of Ivanov and the self-propelled mines of the Makarov construction were taken as weapons systems ...

You are all there on the upper deck! Stop the ridicule!

The fire control system was French, mod. 1899. The instrument set was first presented at an exhibition in Paris and immediately acquired for the RIF by its commander, Grand Duke Alexey Alexandrovich (according to the recollections of relatives, le Beau Brummel, who almost permanently resided in France).

In the conning tower installed horizontally-based rangefinder mark brand Barr and Studd. Belleville design boilers were used. Searchlights Mangena. Steam pumps of the Worthington system. Martin's anchors. Pump Ston. Medium and anti-mine guns - 152- and 75-mm guns of the Canet system. Speed ​​guns 47 mm Hotchkiss. The torpedoes of the Whitehead system.

The Borodino project itself was a modified project of the battleship Tsesarevich, designed and built for the Russian Imperial fleet specialists of the French shipyard “Forge and Chantier”.

In order to avoid misunderstandings and unjustified recriminations, an explanation should be made for a wide audience. Good news - most of the foreign names in the design of the EDB “Borodino” belonged to systems produced under license in Russia. On the technical side, they also met the highest international standards. For example, the conventional design of the sectional boiler of the Belleville system and the very successful guns of Gustave Kane.

However, already one French shooting control system in the Russian EBRD makes you wonder. Why and why? It looks as ridiculous as “Aegis” on the Soviet “Orlan”.

Two bad news.

Great empire with a population of 130 million people, with a high-quality education system (for the elite) and a developed scientific school - Mendeleev, Popov, Yablochkov. And with that all around solid foreign technologies! Where is our domestic “Belleville”? But he was an engineer-inventor V. Shukhov, an employee of the Russian branch of Babcock & Wilksos, who patented a vertical boiler of his own design.

In theory, everything was. In practice, the continuous Bellevilly, brothers Nikloss and the Tsesarevich Bank at the Forge and Chantier shipyard as a reference sample for the Russian fleet.

But, what is especially offensive, the ships at domestic shipyards were built many times slower. Four years for EDB Borodino versus two and a half years for Retvizan (Cram & Sans). Now you shouldn't be like a recognizable hero and ask: “Why? Who did it?" The answer is on the surface - a lack of tools, machines, experience and skillful hands.

Another problem lies in the fact that even with “mutually beneficial cooperation” in the conditions of an “open world market”, something is not observed in the Makarov's torpedoes in service with the French fleet. And in general nothing is observed that would indicate the exchange of technologies. Everything, everything according to the old, proven scheme. We give them - money and gold, they in return - their technical innovations. Belleville boiler. Mina Whitehead. IPhone 6. Because the Russian Mongols in terms of the creative process are complete impotent.

Speaking specifically for the fleet, even licenses are not always enough. It was necessary to simply take and place orders at foreign shipyards.

It is no longer a fact that the cruiser “Varyag” was built in the USA. It is much less known that the second participant of the legendary battle, the gunner “Koreyets”, was built in Sweden.

Armored cruiser "Svetlana", the place of construction - Le Havre, France.
Armored cruiser "Admiral Kornilov" - Saint-Nazaire, France.
Armored cruiser "Askold" - Kiel, Germany.
Armored cruiser "Boyar" - Copenhagen, Denmark.
The armored cruiser "Bayan" - Toulon, France.
Armored cruiser "Admiral Makarov", built at the shipyard "Forge & Chantier".
Armored cruiser "Rurik", built on the English shipyard "Barrow-in-Furness."
Battleship Retvizan, built by Cram & Sans in Philadelphia, USA.
A series of destroyers "Whale", shipyard Friedrich Schiehau, Germany.
A series of destroyers "Trout", were built at the plant of A. Norman in France.
Series "Lieutenant Burakov" - "Forge & Chantier", France.
A series of destroyers "Mechanical Engineer Zverev" - Shipyard Schihau, Germany.
The destroyers of the series "Rider" and "Falcon" were built in Germany and, accordingly, Great Britain.
Batum - at the Yarrow Shipyard in Glasgow, UK (the list is incomplete!).

The regular participant of the “Military review” spoke very causally about this:

Well, it is clear from the Germans ordered ships. They built well, the cars on them were excellent. Well, it is clear in France, such as an ally, plus kickbacks to the Grand Dukes. You can understand and order the American Crump. He did it quickly, promised a lot and rolled away any way as well as the French. But we, it turns out, with the king-father, even in Denmark, ordered cruisers.

Comment from Edward (qwert).

Irritation is well explained. With that colossal gap in technology and labor productivity, the construction of a series of armored cruisers is equivalent to the construction of a modern cosmodrome. Giving such “fat” projects at the mercy of foreign contractors is unprofitable and inefficient in all respects. This money must go to the admiralty shipyards and move the domestic economy. And with it to develop their own science and industry. So everyone wanted to do at all times. Steal from profits, not losses. But we have not done so.

We have done differently. The scheme was called "to steal the ruble, harm the country in a million." French contract, they who need it - roll back. Their shipyards sit without orders. The industry is degrading. Skilled frames are not needed.

There was a time they even tried to build dreadnought battleships, so it would be better not to try. With the implementation of the most complicated project, all the shortcomings of pre-revolutionary Russia were clearly manifested. The widespread lack of production experience, machine tools and competent professionals. Multiplied by incompetence, nepotism, kickbacks and mess in the offices of the Admiralty.

As a result, the formidable “Sevastopol” was built for six years and by the time the St. Andrew’s flag was raised, it was completely outdated. The Empress Maria was no better. Look at their peers. Who joined them at the same time in 1915? The case is not the 15-inch “Queen Elizabeth”? And after that tell me that the author is not objective.

They say there was still a mighty "Ishmael." Or was not. The battle cruiser “Ishmael” turned out to be an unbearable burden for RI. Quite a strange habit - to pass off as an achievement what was not done.

Even in peacetime, with the direct assistance of foreign contractors, the ships turned into protracted over and over again. With the cruiser, everything turned out to be even more serious. When the degree of readiness of “Izmail” reached 43%, Russia got involved in a war in which there was no goal, an objective benefit, and in which it was impossible to win. For “Ishmael” it was the end, because part of its machinery was imported from Germany.

If you have a conversation outside politics, the LCR “Izmail” was also not an indicator of the flourishing of the empire. In the East, dawn has already broken. Japan rose to its full height with its 16-inch Nagato. This, from which even their British teachers were taken aback.

Time passed, no progress was observed. From the point of view of the author, the industry in Tsarist Russia was in complete decline. You may have a different opinion from the author, which, however, will not be easy to prove.

Go down to the engine room of the destroyer “Novik” and read what is stamped on its turbines. Come on, give the light here. Is it really? AG Vulkan Stettin. Deutsches Kaiserreich.

With the engines went wrong from the start. Climb into the nacelle of the same “Ilya of Murom”. What will you see there? Engines brand “Gorynych”? Right, surprise. Renault.

Legendary royal quality

All the facts show that the Russian Empire was trudging somewhere at the very end of the list of developed countries. After the UK, Germany, States, France and even Japan, which, having passed the late Meiji modernization, to the 1910-gg. managed to bypass RI in everything.

In general, Russia was not at all where befits an empire with such ambitions.

After this, the jokes about “Ilina’s light bulb” and the state program for the eradication of illiteracy no longer seem so ridiculous. Years passed, and the country recovered. Fully. It will become a state with the best education in the world, with advanced science and developed industry, which knew how to do everything. Import substitution in the most important sectors (military industry, atom, space) was 100%.

And the descendants of the runaway degenerates will still whine in Paris about “Russia, which they lost.”
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323 comments
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  1. Korsar4
    Korsar4 April 28 2016 06: 21
    +12
    Thanks. Useful article. But one thing is a given: who produced the products. Another is the division into white and black bones. Long shared. Now it's time to decide who is on our side of the barricade.
    1. qwert
      qwert April 28 2016 07: 27
      +36
      In general, it’s just like about today's Russia
      1. Mavrikiy
        Mavrikiy April 28 2016 16: 25
        +3
        Quote: qwert
        In general, it’s just like about today's Russia

        Yes, there are no differences. What then was the dominance of the liberals, what now. And the results are similar. One to one.
        1. Cro-Magnon
          Cro-Magnon April 28 2016 22: 14
          0
          84% added, and 16% minus ... "the descendants of the scattered ..." ?!
        2. kvd015
          kvd015 4 May 2016 15: 35
          0
          Stop, stop, stop ....
          Who are you talking about?
          About GDP or about DM?
    2. Baloo
      Baloo April 28 2016 08: 15
      +15
      A good article is that parallels are being asked nowadays
      1. Diana Ilyina
        Diana Ilyina April 28 2016 09: 22
        +32
        Wait, now "Oleg the monarchist" will come running here and tear the author to shreds with his "arguments"! Yesterday he gave out such pearls about the great achievements of Nikolayev's Russia, about the mighty heavy industry and the developed economy. True, I could not clearly answer the question of why such a monster as the Russian Empire lost the outright Russian-Japanese war. At the same time, all these newly-minted "gentlemen" and "lords", imagining themselves "white bone" and "blue blood", accuse Lenin of losing the First World War! Arguments that the war was lost by the beginning of 1917 have no effect on them. They are also not worried about the fact that the tsar was overthrown in February 1917, and it was not the Bolsheviks who overthrew them, but the nobility and members of the royal family, that is, those who had to defend this power at the cost of their lives.

        Although what to take from them, the Pepsi generation has seen enough of modern nonsense such as "admiral" and "sunstroke" and imagined themselves to be the descendants of the white "noble" officers, forgetting at the same time how this very officers went in orderly ranks in the Wehrmacht to cleanse Mother Russia "Bolshevik infection"! What can you say, there is no better phrase than Lavrov said!
        1. aiw
          aiw April 28 2016 09: 33
          -4
          To begin with, RI did NOT lose the outright Russian-Japanese war.

          The rest of the nonsense is too lazy to comment. Read what A. N. Krylov "My memories" ...
          1. Record Nadoev
            Record Nadoev April 28 2016 09: 42
            +11
            Quote: aiw
            To begin with, RI did NOT lose the outright Russian-Japanese war.

            We are in the know. She won her brilliantly.
            What can’t you subtract in the internet?
            1. AK64
              AK64 April 28 2016 09: 52
              -12%
              We are in the know. She won her brilliantly.

              Won.
              After Mukden (February!), The Japanese were no longer capable of any actions in Manchuria in general.
              And they could not increase the army either, because they used ALL resources.
              And the Russians quietly completed the road and increased the army.
              By August, the Russian army grew to about 600 thousand people. This was the end for the Japanese.

              So the British had to save the "client" with all their might.
              1. Record Nadoev
                Record Nadoev April 28 2016 10: 04
                +26
                Quote: AK64
                This was the end for the Japanese.

                Keep obscene. I can, for you.
                Russia won the war, and on this occasion, in the joys of Portsmouth:
                1. Recognized the freedom of action of Japan in Korea.
                2. Withdrew Russian troops from Manchuria.
                3. Transmitted to Japan, the Liaodong Peninsula and the South Manchurian Railway (UMZhD).
                4. Paid military expenses to Japan (officially, instead of "indemnity", it was bashfully called "compensation to Japan for the cost of maintaining prisoners of war," which does not change the essence).
                5. Gave Japan Sakhalin.
                6. Granted Japan fishing rights along the Russian coast.
                There is nothing to be surprised at; all actions are typical of winners.
                I thought only aiw is weird. But he was mistaken.
                1. AK64
                  AK64 April 28 2016 10: 13
                  -7
                  Keep obscene. I can, for you.
                  Russia won the war, and on this occasion, in the joys of Portsmouth:
                  1. Recognized the freedom of action of Japan in Korea .....


                  I wrote in Russian: "British had to save the client"Yes, the client was saved. And, by the way, the efforts of one of the" rescuers "- the British agent Witte - were appreciated by the Russians, having kicked (though with a formal promotion) from all real posts.
                  Appreciated the merits ...
                  And the "hero" had to live out in Europe, I am spiteful.

                  As an example:
                  If the United States were forced to end the war with Japan at the end of 1942, then those like you today would write about the fantastic loss of the United States in the war, and about the greatness of the samurai spirit.


                  So: Russia in the august of 1905 COULD fight further --- Russia actually did not start to fight. But by the spring of 1905, Japan had already ended: they had run out of resources.
                  1. Record Nadoev
                    Record Nadoev April 28 2016 10: 39
                    +4
                    Quote: AK64
                    I wrote in Russian: "the British had to save the client."

                    Do not make up. The Japanese completely managed on their own.
                    Write some nonsense.
                    Quote: AK64
                    British agent Witte - Russians appreciated throwing (though with a formal increase) from all real posts.

                    Enchanting. Sparklingly. Non-standard.
                    Keep on laughing.
                    Quote: AK64
                    If the US were forced to end the war with Japan at the end of 1942

                    Quote: AK64
                    Russia in the august of 1905 COULD fight further --- Russia actually did not start to fight.

                    You need to pass an alcohol test.
                    Better yet, turn off the computer and relax.
                    1. Aleksander
                      Aleksander April 28 2016 10: 51
                      +3
                      Quote: Record Nadoev
                      You need to pass an alcohol test.

                      You have not passed the test, the test for rudeness.
                      1. Record Nadoev
                        Record Nadoev April 28 2016 11: 02
                        -8
                        Quote: Aleksander
                        You have not passed the test, the test for rudeness.

                        You keep your opinion to yourself. You are probably interested in it.
                        Would you like me suggested not temporary and accidental, but the constant "playfulness" of my opponent?
                      2. AK64
                        AK64 April 28 2016 19: 40
                        +1
                        You have not passed the test, the test for rudeness.


                        He will not last long, and he was always a boor, even when he was an abacus (and this was a long time ago). At work, man working
                      3. Record Nadoev
                        Record Nadoev April 28 2016 19: 51
                        -2
                        Quote: AK64
                        He will not last long

                        Already start to be afraid?
                        Quote: AK64
                        and he was always a boor

                        Really? but it seemed to me that we were not familiar. Grandmother Wang earn extra money?
                        Quote: AK64
                        At work, man working

                        Oh, yes. Show me the place where they pay for the forums, and immediately run there to get a job. Only these are all fairy tales "about the bad". Who came up with "good" so as not to look stupid.
                        Quote: AK64
                        even when it was an abacus (which was a long time ago)

                        And who is this? See the fragment, he is about it.
                      4. The comment was deleted.
                  2. The comment was deleted.
                  3. aleks_29296
                    aleks_29296 April 28 2016 15: 48
                    +6
                    The Japanese completely managed on their own.


                    From now on, you already write nonsense. Without city bank loans, Japan would be blown away immediately. Britain provided political and financial support to Japan, partly military in the form of intelligence and weapons.
                    1. Record Nadoev
                      Record Nadoev April 28 2016 20: 22
                      0
                      Quote: aleks_29296
                      Without City Bank loans, Japan would be blown away right away

                      You will be surprised, but giving loans is a function of banks. They live from this. Therefore, nothing personal, only business. The war was not a global one, so a local conflict.
                    2. Cro-Magnon
                      Cro-Magnon April 28 2016 22: 22
                      +5
                      Oh well! Japan fought against us with the help of the United States and the British Empire! How does this cancel the fact that RUSSIA LOST WAR ??!
                    3. Alex
                      Alex April 30 2016 22: 49
                      +3
                      Quote: aleks_29296
                      Britain provided political and financial support to Japan, partly military in the form of intelligence and weapons.

                      England has always supported and will continue to support the enemies of Russia at all times and in any of its forms. And if he plays the good uncle, then only when there is no way out. So it was in the time of Napoleon, so it was with Hitler, so it will be in the future.

                      But the fact that the Russian leadership was not able to think of such a simple conclusion before starting a war is another matter. Either Alexander II liberates the Balkans for Germany and England, then Nicholas with the same number in a compartment with his ministers can’t decompose the political solitaire ... So Russia has lost the RJAV and, unfortunately, this is a fact. As well as the fact that wars are won not only by soldiers, but also by officials. As well as losing them.
                  4. AK64
                    AK64 April 28 2016 19: 35
                    -2
                    Do not make up. The Japanese completely managed on their own.
                    Write some nonsense.


                    The fact that you personally are a Russophobe is well known to those present, and you were not able to say anything new here.

                    The fact that you are a boor, I also know for a long time, that is, nothing new here.

                    Let's tell further that SVD is SVT, hang people.
                    1. Record Nadoev
                      Record Nadoev April 28 2016 20: 17
                      0
                      Quote: AK64
                      The fact that you personally are a Russophobe is well known to those present, and you were not able to say anything new here.

                      Those. recognize that Russia lost the Russo-Japanese War, is it Russophobia? This is some new word in historiography. Hitherto unknown.
                      Quote: AK64
                      The fact that you are a boor, I also know for a long time, that is, nothing new here.

                      Grandma Wang imagined himself? Do you know everything about people in advance? You are lucky.
                    2. The comment was deleted.
                  5. Dart2027
                    Dart2027 April 28 2016 20: 31
                    +3
                    Quote: Record Nadoev
                    The Japanese completely managed on their own.

                    When was "Bloody Sunday" organized and, as a consequence, riots across the country? Their intelligence was not capable of this.
                    1. VEKT
                      VEKT April 28 2016 22: 23
                      +4
                      And what about the imperial counterintelligence? And who forbade Zubatov from engaging in a workers' society, and left Gapon unattended? There was no social tension in society and there were no prerequisites for revolution?
                    2. Dart2027
                      Dart2027 April 28 2016 22: 43
                      +3
                      Quote: VEKT
                      And what about the imperial counterintelligence?

                      Back in Soviet times, I often read descriptions of how the same Leni lived in exile. Not in hard labor, but in exile, mind you. You can also recall how many times all kinds of fighters of all stripes fled or were acquitted by the court.
                      The problem was not so much in counterintelligence as in almonds with the opposition, half of which were outright terrorists. Separate attempts to tidy up the order, for example, by Stolypin, have not changed the overall picture.
              2. alicante11
                alicante11 April 28 2016 13: 42
                +4
                If the United States were forced to end the war with Japan at the end of 1942, then those like you today would write about the fantastic loss of the United States in the war, and about the greatness of the samurai spirit.


                But the USA, no one could force "to end the war in 1942. Just like the USSR, no one could make it stop in the defeat of the Nazis. And the Republic of Ingushetia were able to stop and this, just, suggests that RI was slipping into the category of minor powers. ...
                1. Mavrikiy
                  Mavrikiy April 28 2016 16: 43
                  -2
                  Quote: alicante11
                  spirit.


                  But the USA, no one could force "to end the war in 1942. Just like the USSR, no one could make it stop in the defeat of the Nazis. And the Republic of Ingushetia were able to stop and this, just, suggests that RI was slipping into the category of minor powers. ...

                  "No one could force the USA." So far, yes. "The USSR could not have been forced." Controversial statement. "And the Republic of Ingushetia was able to stop, and this, just, and suggests that the Republic of Ingushetia was slipping into the category of minor powers." A delusional statement devoid of logic. If they can force the second composition? Germany was forced to abandon its claims twice. Japan once. How to deal with them according to your logic? After the military defeat! Well, fools, since they brought the matter to him.
                  Shashkai do not wave, but sit down and think quietly, analyze ... About the revolution of 1905. read about Japan. Forgot whose house was burned down by a Japanese diplomat or Togo. The people of Japan are ungrateful for the victory over Russia. Read on. By the way, "Measure seven times and cut once", "you understand why I am telling you this."
                2. Record Nadoev
                  Record Nadoev April 28 2016 17: 36
                  -3
                  Quote: alicante11
                  Like the USSR, no one could force to stop in the defeat of the Nazis.

                  Yes?
                3. AK64
                  AK64 April 28 2016 19: 38
                  -2
                  But the USA, no one could force "to end the war in 1942. Just like the USSR, no one could make it stop in the defeat of the Nazis. And the Republic of Ingushetia were able to stop and this, just, suggests that RI was slipping into the category of minor powers. ...


                  Not true.

                  And naturally Russia was not a "secondary" one.

                  Then there was that G-8, of the eight powers.
                  Moreover, Japan was "accepted" just by the results of the RYA.
                  Where Russia was-there she remained.

                  "Secondary" in those terms are Belgium-Holland-Spain.
                  So do not dream.
              3. 10 inches
                10 inches April 28 2016 17: 13
                -2
                British agent Witte - Russians appreciated throwing (though with a formal increase) from all real posts. in your opinion it really was worth this-1. Recognized the freedom of action of Japan in Korea.
                2. Withdrew Russian troops from Manchuria.
                3. Transmitted to Japan, the Liaodong Peninsula and the South Manchurian Railway (UMZhD).
                4. Paid military expenses to Japan (officially, instead of "indemnity", it was bashfully called "compensation to Japan for the cost of maintaining prisoners of war," which does not change the essence).
                5. Gave Japan Sakhalin.
                6. Granted Japan fishing rights along the Russian coast. ????? where does the Angles when their fools are full. when the Grand Duke of the Navy builds mansions for ballerinas on naval money ???
              4. Alf
                Alf April 29 2016 22: 42
                +1
                Quote: AK64
                Russia in the august of 1905 COULD fight further

                To defeat Japan, Russia had to seize supremacy at sea. By this time, the Arthur squadron was already at the bottom, the Second was crushed under Tsushima, the Vladivostok detachment was actually knocked out of the game. How to fight?
              5. perm23
                perm23 27 December 2016 17: 59
                0
                Sorry . you never know who and what could. It turned out that. No fleet. Port Arthur fell. Maybe we could fight again. maybe. So what. We admitted defeat and made peace on their terms. .So don't. come up with. "BY" again interferes.
          2. 0255
            0255 April 28 2016 11: 53
            +6
            Quote: AK64
            We are in the know. She won her brilliantly.

            Won.
            After Mukden (February!), The Japanese were no longer capable of any actions in Manchuria in general.
            And they could not increase the army either, because they used ALL resources.
            And the Russians quietly completed the road and increased the army.
            By August, the Russian army grew to about 600 thousand people. This was the end for the Japanese.

            So the British had to save the "client" with all their might.

            Reminiscent of the statements made by Ukraine about the "peremog" at the Donetsk airport and Debaltseve. What nafig victory if the Kuril Islands went to the Japanese?
            1. alicante11
              alicante11 April 28 2016 13: 44
              +1
              What nafig victory if the Kuril Islands retreated to the Japanese?


              The Kurils "moved away" earlier, according to the results of the RYA, half of Sakhalin "moved away".
            2. AK64
              AK64 April 28 2016 19: 46
              +1
              What nafig victory if the Kuril Islands retreated to the Japanese?


              You will be surprised, but the Kuril Islands have been Japanese since 1875.

              Moreover, you are confusing the results of the "peace negotiations" with the results of the war. Witte (a patented British agent) and the entire Sakhalin, together with Primorye, would have surrendered - but here the Americans have already begun to resent.
      2. Diana Ilyina
        Diana Ilyina April 28 2016 09: 47
        +21
        Quote: aiw
        To begin with, RI did NOT lose the outright Russian-Japanese war.

        The rest of the nonsense is too lazy to comment. Read what A. N. Krylov "My memories" ...


        Well, yes, she won it ... First, the squadron of Vitgeft completely defeated Togo near Port Arthur, and then Rozhdestvensky finished off the remnants of the Japanese fleet in the Tsushima battle! And at this time, the Arthurian garrison under the command of the "brave" and "courageous" generals Stessel and Fock, finished off the remnants of the army of Baron Noga, which was not killed by General Kuropatkin ...

        What nonsense from the above are you "too lazy to comment" ?!
        1. Mavrikiy
          Mavrikiy April 28 2016 16: 54
          -6
          Quote: Diana Ilyina
          Quote: aiw
          To begin with, RI did NOT lose the outright Russian-Japanese war.

          The rest of the nonsense is too lazy to comment. Read what A. N. Krylov "My memories" ...


          What nonsense from the above are you "too lazy to comment" ?!

          You see, losing a bunch of fights and battles can easily win the war. Well, not quite without difficulty, well, not quite a war .... But you forget, the history is written by the Libers. Then the revolution and we do not need tsarism. And then again the libers write, they unfasten the loot. From here you have flawed information and hasty and clear conclusions. What to think? Do you have a desire to think or not, I don’t know.
      3. Atenaia
        Atenaia April 28 2016 19: 02
        -2
        Hard case...
      4. Alf
        Alf April 29 2016 22: 33
        0
        Quote: aiw
        RI did NOT lose the pure Russian-Japanese war.

        The expression "did not lose cleanly" should be understood that some victories were won.
        Would you deign to list these "victories"?
    3. aiw
      aiw April 28 2016 09: 33
      -2
      To begin with, RI did NOT lose the outright Russian-Japanese war.

      The rest of the nonsense is too lazy to comment. Read what A. N. Krylov "My memories" ...
      1. Uncle Murzik
        Uncle Murzik April 28 2016 09: 45
        +6
        Russian-Japanese Russia won! belay only why Russia was left without a fleet?
        1. AK64
          AK64 April 28 2016 09: 53
          -7
          Why was Russia left without a fleet?

          And where did he go?

          Surely the fleet by the 14th from the Alpha Centauri came to Russia?
          1. Record Nadoev
            Record Nadoev April 28 2016 10: 10
            -4
            Quote: AK64
            Surely the fleet by the 14th from the Alpha Centauri came to Russia?

            Did Russia have a fleet in the 14th? Come on, come on. Could this place be more detailed?
            1. AK64
              AK64 April 28 2016 10: 15
              -3
              Did Russia have a fleet in the 14th? Come on, come on. Could this place be more detailed?


              Did Russia have a fleet in 1914?
              One of 8 countries capable of producing dreadnought.
              (But the USSR could not build battleships)
              1. Record Nadoev
                Record Nadoev April 28 2016 10: 43
                0
                Quote: AK64
                One of 8 countries capable of producing dreadnought.

                Listen, your fantasies also need to know the measure.
                Russia could not produce dreadnoughts. Some ships that she built, she called. But in fact, they were not dreadnoughts.
                In the same way, the "Russian cruisers" were not full-fledged cruisers.
                In the same way, "Russian squadron battleships" were not squadron battleships. They were buckets with nuts. And the Russo-Japanese War fully demonstrated this.
                1. aiw
                  aiw April 28 2016 10: 55
                  +1
                  But go to the black list, Mr. good - it’s a pity to read your nonsense.
                2. alicante11
                  alicante11 April 28 2016 14: 03
                  +3
                  Listen, your fantasies also need to know the measure.


                  Well, you have too much, after all.

                  But in fact, they were not dreadnoughts.


                  Seva is quite a dreadnought. Compare with the Dreadnought or Dante Alighieri or Helgoland himself. The first two Seva will cover like a bull sheep. With a third, he can part with the world if he does not get his suitcase locked in the cellar. The only problem is that by the time Sev entered service in the West there were already Superdreadnoughts. Orions, Kaisers.

                  In the same way, the "Russian cruisers" were not full-fledged cruisers.


                  What was wrong with "Oleg" or "Emerald" with "Pearl"? Or “Russia” with Thunderbolt? ”It is clear that since the days of Minin and Donskoy our KRs were built as fighters of trade, hence the“ goddesses ”came from.


                  In the same way, "Russian squadron battleships" were not squadron battleships.


                  Yes, there were normal EBRs. Not worse than Western ones. The only thing that is presented to the same Borodino is overload. So the Angles built the Mikasu to the Japanese with a terrible overload, albeit by enlightened sailors. Yes, earlier too, That Poltava, that Navarin, that the Black Sea people - normal EBRs. at the level of their time. True, many have English cars and foreign armor. But, this is still better than the Italians built at first - only buildings, and all the filling was bought over the hill.
                  It is clear that the family is not without freaks - I'm talking about the "emperors" and "Peresvetov". However, the concept of cruising war, and they were not worse than the Asamosaurs. It was just that the Asamoids were not bombarded with such a hail of SKs, like “Oslyabyu”, in WM, when the Japanese beat from a long distance and made a bet on the GC, “Peresvet” withstood the fight quite normally.
                  1. Record Nadoev
                    Record Nadoev April 28 2016 16: 35
                    -4
                    Quote: alicante11
                    Seva is quite a dreadnought.

                    Seva quite a bucket of nuts. Exactly the same as almost all past Russian-built ships. The range of their action on the project is already less than the norm for battleships, only 3500 NM. But the same Sevastopol had a design and construction transshipment of 1500 tons. From this, the REAL range of action in a combat-ready state was only about 1500 miles. Therefore, these troughs were not distilled anywhere from the Baltic, because even during the REV, they understood what an overloaded warship is. And I also advise you to understand the same.
                    Quote: alicante11
                    What was the fault of "Oleg"

                    None of the licensed clones of Bogatyr showed his TTX. Oleg generally approached Tsushima with one broken (three-cylinder, one cylinder did not work) machine. Convincing quality.
                    Quote: alicante11
                    or "Emerald" with "Pearls"?

                    "Pebbles" are generally rubbish. Novik was bought not because he was good, he was unimportant cheap (like all three-shaft ships), but because of a license for 6000 strong cars (for every little thing, meaning to get 12000 forces from a pair). We bought 8000 strong cars together with the Tsarevich, 10000 strong cars together with Bogatyr. They were built in haste, they simply did not have time (and were not in a hurry) to rework Novik's project for 2 Bogatyr's cars.
                    Quote: alicante11
                    Or "Russia" with Thunderbolt "?

                    If Rurik already inspired some doubts (4 cars, 2 shafts), but for his time was still quite tolerant, then Russia with its 5 (!!!) machines on three shafts was already quite caricatured. Thunderbolt was even worse, because of the lack of machines, built on a 3-screw and three-machine scheme, with "armored" vehicles. Of course, he could not be an armored raider, there was not enough range and speed. And it was not an EBR by definition. So these monsters gathered in a herd, hoping to fight off with a bunch, until the Japanese pinched them one morning. But even then great happiness happened, only Rurik was lost. Fig Japanese sailors.
                    Quote: alicante11
                    It is clear that since the days of Minin and Donskoy our CDs were built as trade fighters. Hence the "goddesses" came from.

                    At the time of the RYAV, there were only 2 such (except for armored WOCs) in the RIF, Varyag and Bogatyr. The "goddesses" were not the destroyers of trade and were not even conceived of as such. Look at the nature of their weapons.
                    Quote: alicante11
                    Yes, there were normal EBRs. No worse than western ones.

                    Victory pulled on the old from the birth of EBR2, Poltava, on the old from the birth of EBR1. Navarin in his time also pulled on the old from the birth of EBR1. No more EDBs were built in the Russian Empire in fact. Generally. But there were a lot of ships that were called that. Points over i were placed during the REV. Arguing with the facts is inappropriate.
                    Quote: alicante11
                    That of Poltava, that of Navarin, that of the Black Sea - normal EBRs. at the level of his time.

                    You are repeating yourself, but spells in such cases are inappropriate, facts are needed.
                  2. Record Nadoev
                    Record Nadoev April 28 2016 16: 35
                    -1
                    Quote: alicante11
                    So the Angles built the Mikasu to the Japanese, albeit by enlightened navigators, with a terrible overload.

                    And you look who built. British trash vickers. Therefore, Mikasa was torn out by the flagship, as the weakest of the modern Japanese four. The rest of the Japanese EDB had no problems with the effective range in combat condition; a possible advantage was taken into account in their projects.
                    Quote: alicante11
                    The only thing presented to the same Borodins is overload.

                    Not only that, actually. But this alone was enough to see what kind of buckets they were with nuts.
                    Quote: alicante11
                    not without freaks - I'm talking about "emperors" and "Peresvetov".

                    About Victory, I wrote above. As for the rest, I agree.
                    Quote: alicante11
                    However, the concept of cruising war, and they were no worse than the Asamosaurs

                    And what does the armored defenders (you call them Asamosaurs, although this is fundamentally wrong) have an 2 class EDB (overexposure)? These are not suppressed quantities. And the latter have nothing to do with cruising war.
                    Quote: alicante11
                    It was just that the Asamoids were not bombarded with such a hail of SK, like "Oslyabyu"

                    Simple, only children are made. In fact, Oslyabya was no longer a tenant on the approach to Tsushima. At it maximum, before it came out of combat readiness, it was possible to load 324 tons of coal (it was built that way). And in the morning before Tsushima, there were 1414 tons of coal on board. A couple of successful hits in the extremities (Oslyabya was armored according to the citadel scheme) is a little thicker than a nail, and then the water will do its job. And so it happened. The same applies to Sisoy, if that.
                    Quote: alicante11
                    "Peresvet" quite normally withstood the battle.

                    Do not confuse Relight with Oslyaby. The full reserve of coal at Peresvet before leaving the combat-ready state was 954 tons. Three times more than Oslyaby. This was enough to get from PA to Vladik.
                  3. alicante11
                    alicante11 April 29 2016 12: 17
                    +1
                    And you look who built. British trash vickers.


                    Well, that's the angles already "trash heap". The French with Caesar got burned, the Americans with Varg, the Germans with the Novikm. So who then knew how to build? Only you?

                    Therefore, Mikasa was torn out by the flagship as the weakest of the modern Japanese four


                    Um, are you serious at all? The most shelled ship, for information - the flagship. And he is just the most afraid of overload. What does the range have to do with yapes operating in inland seas?

                    Not only that, actually. But this alone was enough to see what kind of buckets they were with nuts.


                    Once again, I give you the example of Mikasa, built on the English "trash heap". Well, that was the level of engineering calculations at that time. There were no computers and 3D modeling programs.

                    And what does the armored defenders (you call them Asamosaurs, although this is fundamentally wrong) have an 2 class EDB (overexposure)? These are not suppressed quantities. And the latter have nothing to do with cruising war.


                    Hmmm, a difficult case. You would at least read the history of the design of Peresvetov or something. Here the Asamoids just belonged to the battleships of the 2nd class, and had nothing to do with the cruising war. "Belching" of the Sino-Japanese War. They were just lucky that they were never fired upon in a normal way during the entire war. What would have happened if the asaoid received a portion received in the ZhM or under Tsushima Mikasa, Jutland shows well, and the example of the same Asama, who was the first to be knocked out of the line under Tsushima by the old man Nikolai.

                    In fact, Oslyabya was no longer a tenant on the approach to Tsushima. At him maximum, until his exit from combat readiness


                    What does it mean, "a way out of a combat-ready position." You give the definition to such an expression. Couldn't he shoot? Or was the whole belt under water? Silych read less, he will come up with something else from the Eagle infirmary.

                    A couple of successful hits at the extremities (Oslyabya was armored according to the citadel scheme) is a little thicker than a nail, and then the water will do its job.


                    And what does "overload" have to do with it? The citadel circuit is struck at the extremity, even with overload, even without.
                  4. Record Nadoev
                    Record Nadoev April 29 2016 15: 08
                    0
                    Angles are already a "trash heap".

                    I did not say that. Angles to angels strife. And there were enough shipbuilders there. At different levels.
                    The French with Caesar got burned, the Americans with Varg, the Germans with the Novikm.

                    The French and Caesar did not burn. They remade EBR2 into EBR1. Like any alteration, Caesar had flaws. But it was a full-fledged class 1 EDB. Although not very strong.
                    As for the Varangian, I don’t understand the complaints at all. Beautiful was a fighter cruiser.
                    Novik was cheap. The ship, for fans to save on the purchase (cheap cars), but go broke on the operation (increased fuel consumption). The Germans have to do with it? What they ordered, they built it. Qualitatively.
                    The most shelled ship, for information - the flagship.

                    Not always. For your information, neither Petropavlovsk, nor Tsesarevich, nor Peresvet (these are all the flagships of the 1st TOE) were the strongest among the rest. Tsesarevich is even stronger, and the other two are generally the weakest. And this is no coincidence.
                    Well, that was the level of engineering calculations of the time.

                    And I give you an example of the Varangian and Retvisan from Kramp. Cesarevich. The same Boyarin. Asahi from J. Brown. The level of engineering calculations was normal. Completely coped without computers.
                    Would you at least read the history of Peresvet design

                    I know. And I do not advise you to read storytellers.
                    But the Asamoids belonged to the 2nd class battleships, and had no relation to the cruising war.

                    What you call "class 2 battleships" are actually armored defenders. Trade defenders against armored raiders. The pinnacle of ships for this purpose.
                    A EDB conditional 3 classes can be called Nissin and Kasugu. These are budget armadillos for poor countries. Everything, like a normal EDB, only the small ones themselves, the guns are cheap and in general, everything is cheapened.
                    And overexposure, in theory, is a typical class 2 EDB. Mobile wing of linear forces. Later, such ships were called battlecruisers.
                    What would happen if the asaoid received a portion obtained in the LM or under Tsushima Mikasa

                    No armored defender would receive anything. These ships were not linear battle ships. Therefore, from such a battle they would simply have left (evaded).
                    an example of the same Asama, which the first of the line under Tsushima was knocked out by old man Nikolai.

                    I did not find Asamu among the Japanese losses.
                    Couldn’t he shoot? Or was the entire belt under water?

                    He could shoot. And I do not even exclude (did not consider) that the GP could be discerned. But the Karapas were submerged above the calculated level. A pair of holes in the unarmored ends, and the water itself will do everything. And so it happened.
                    The citadel scheme is struck at the tip even with overload, even without.

                    Without overload, ships of this scheme could generally go without extremities. It is like a light hull in a submarine. And when overloaded, the Karapas and the hull plunged and when the water arrived, the ship went to the bottom under the weight of its weight (the principle of an empty bucket). There, in general, further participation of the enemy was not required. It was only necessary to start the process.
                  5. Record Nadoev
                    Record Nadoev April 29 2016 15: 08
                    0
                    Angles are already a "trash heap".

                    I did not say that. Angles to angels strife. And there were enough shipbuilders there. At different levels.
                    The French with Caesar got burned, the Americans with Varg, the Germans with the Novikm.

                    The French and Caesar did not burn. They remade EBR2 into EBR1. Like any alteration, Caesar had flaws. But it was a full-fledged class 1 EDB. Although not very strong.
                    As for the Varangian, I don’t understand the complaints at all. Beautiful was a fighter cruiser.
                    Novik was cheap. The ship, for fans to save on the purchase (cheap cars), but go broke on the operation (increased fuel consumption). The Germans have to do with it? What they ordered, they built it. Qualitatively.
                    The most shelled ship, for information - the flagship.

                    Not always. For your information, neither Petropavlovsk, nor Tsesarevich, nor Peresvet (these are all the flagships of the 1st TOE) were the strongest among the rest. Tsesarevich is even stronger, and the other two are generally the weakest. And this is no coincidence.
                    Well, that was the level of engineering calculations of the time.

                    And I give you an example of the Varangian and Retvisan from Kramp. Cesarevich. The same Boyarin. Asahi from J. Brown. The level of engineering calculations was normal. Completely coped without computers.
                    Would you at least read the history of Peresvet design

                    I know. And I do not advise you to read storytellers.
                    But the Asamoids belonged to the 2nd class battleships, and had no relation to the cruising war.

                    What you call "class 2 battleships" are actually armored defenders. Trade defenders against armored raiders. The pinnacle of ships for this purpose.
                    A EDB conditional 3 classes can be called Nissin and Kasugu. These are budget armadillos for poor countries. Everything, like a normal EDB, only the small ones themselves, the guns are cheap and in general, everything is cheapened.
                    And overexposure, in theory, is a typical class 2 EDB. Mobile wing of linear forces. Later, such ships were called battlecruisers.
                    What would happen if the asaoid received a portion obtained in the LM or under Tsushima Mikasa

                    No armored defender would receive anything. These ships were not linear battle ships. Therefore, from such a battle they would simply have left (evaded).
                    an example of the same Asama, which the first of the line under Tsushima was knocked out by old man Nikolai.

                    I did not find Asamu among the Japanese losses.
                    Couldn’t he shoot? Or was the entire belt under water?

                    He could shoot. And I do not even exclude (did not consider) that the GP could be discerned. But the Karapas were submerged above the calculated level. A pair of holes in the unarmored ends, and the water itself will do everything. And so it happened.
                    The citadel scheme is struck at the tip even with overload, even without.

                    Without overload, ships of this scheme could generally go without extremities. It is like a light hull in a submarine. And when overloaded, the Karapas and the hull plunged and when the water arrived, the ship went to the bottom under the weight of its weight (the principle of an empty bucket). There, in general, further participation of the enemy was not required. It was only necessary to start the process.
              2. The comment was deleted.
              3. alicante11
                alicante11 April 29 2016 12: 04
                0
                Seva quite a bucket of nuts.


                You take one of the parameters and use it to build the "bucket safety" of the ship. The Sevas weren’t a prodigy, but for DREDNOUTS it was a perfectly normal boat. I say again, compare with the Dreadnought or Dante Alighieri. Seva will break them like Tuzik a heating pad with all its overload. Helgoland tudy-syudy. The armor is thick, although Seva's suitcases could take it, especially for the towers. But the Germans did not explode from the explosion in the tower. In any case, Helgoland Seva will not drown quickly, and then the cardboard armor can work and go out sideways, like the Cats Beatty.

                None of the licensed clones of Bogatyr showed his TTX


                So what? Is the difference in 2 knots important? By the way, it's not a fact that she was. It's just that the speed tests in the Russian fleet were much more severe than in the European ones. And about the cylinder, so at Caesar's eccentrics warmed up. Varyag in general toiled with boilers all "conscious" life and what, now the French and amers "in the trash heap"? Anything can break.

                "Pebbles" are generally rubbish.


                What is their crappiness manifested?

                but for its time was still quite tolerant, Russia with its 5-th (!!!) machines on three shafts was already quite caricatured.


                And why you did not please "FIVE CARS !!!!" How would they interfere with the cruiser in battle? As far as I remember, one of the machines in the FM in Russia was out of order. At the same time, she pulled better than Rurik on the remaining ones. Isn't it a plus for a raider?

                Look at the nature of their weapons.


                And what except the firewall looks like the weapons of the Goddesses? Most likely, the designer was dripped on the brain with danger from destroyers. I don’t see anything terrible.

                In the days of the REV, there were only 2, Varangian, and Bogatyr such (except armored woks) in RIF


                Yeah, Varangian with dead boilers and Bogatyr with armored towers - are these raiders?

                Victory pulled on old from the birth of EBR2


                Why are they "born old"? How was this expressed? You are not looking at the ships with which they had to fight, but those with which they were built at the same time. And don't forget about the Russian long-term construction.

                Points over i were placed during the REV.


                Well, yes, then PMV "dotted all the i's" according to Hochseeflott.
              4. Record Nadoev
                Record Nadoev April 29 2016 14: 22
                0
                You take one of the parameters and use it to build the "bucket safety" of the ship.

                So there were not so many of them, the main parameters.
                Once again I say, compare with the Dreadnought or Dante Alighieri

                And let's compare it not with ancient scows, but with peers. Seva entered service in December 1914. At this time, Britain had already begun to receive Queen Elizabeth-class super battleships. Sev has nothing to compare with them. Let's compare it to the Iron Duke class battleships. They just entered service a little earlier than Seva. 10x13,5 "/ 45 Mk V cannons for the British versus 12x12 / 40 ancient Seva cannons. There is nothing to compare here. 12x1x152mm / 45 BL Mk.VII versus 16x1x120mm medium caliber guns. Here too. GP 229-305 mm for the British versus 225 mm for Seva, VP 203 mm for the British versus 75-125 mm for Seva.
                And so you can walk through all the main parameters. What is there to compare? Only if show off.
                The difference in 2 knots is fundamental?

                For a cruiser, sometimes vital.
                Just speed tests in the Russian fleet were much more stringent than in the European.

                Laughing, and loudly and for a long time.
                Varyag generally toiled with boilers all "conscious" life

                This is not the Varangian toiled, but the mechanics toiled. Nothing of the kind was observed at Retvisan.
                What is their crappiness manifested?

                I don’t want to explain for a long time. First of all, a three-shaft drive circuit.
                And why you did not please "FIVE CARS !!!!" How would they interfere with the cruiser in battle?

                So take an interest in how this affected the battle in the Korean Strait.
                I remember that one of the cars in the Russian Railways fails

                Russia did not participate in combat in the WM. And in the CP, there was something else. "Machine scheme" + sloppiness.
                At the same time, she pulled better on the remaining ones than Rurik.

                Rurik, being a closing one, developed 17,5 knots of the course and gradually went around to the right of Stormbreaker, and also caught up with the leading Russia, which slowed down the whole movement.
                Examine this question.
                And what except the firewall looks like the weapons of the Goddesses?

                Typical hospital cruiser. They were also called colonial cruisers. It is unclear why Russia needed them as many as 4 (!!!) pieces, didn’t she have any colonies?
                Varangian with dead boilers and Bogatyr with armored towers - are these raiders?

                Why did the Varyag have "killed boilers"? And who killed them on the new cruiser? These are Rudnev's fantasies, nothing more.
                As for the Bogatyr, then I was described, meaning Boyarin. The hero was a reconnaissance cruiser. Those. just the ship of counteraction to fighter cruisers. He was a hunter, in other words.
                What was it expressed in?

                The fact that his performance characteristics WHEN ENTERING THE STORY pulled a maximum on the previous generation of ships. Generation of Poltava and Fuji. Victory did not pull on modern EDB 2 classes. At the same time, Oslyabya and Peresvet generally did not pull on the EDB. Not at all.
      2. revnagan
        revnagan April 28 2016 11: 30
        +2
        Quote: AK64
        Did Russia have a fleet in 1914?

        Was. But where and how was it built? And by whom? The answers are in the article above.
        1. MrK
          MrK April 28 2016 12: 11
          +4
          Quote: revnagan
          Did Russia have a fleet in 1914?

          For colleagues about the history of the Russian fleet. In A.N. Krylov’s book “My Memories” there is a paragraph entitled “How 500 Million per Fleet in 1912 were Received”
          Here is an excerpt from this book. "In 1912, I was a distinguished professor at the Maritime Academy, in which I then read ship theory and differential and integral calculus; at the same time, I was for special assignments under the naval minister Admiral I.K. Grigorovich.
          Once Grigorovich called me by phone urgently to his place and informed me that a meeting had been scheduled in the State Duma at which the bill on the allocation of 500 million rubles to renew the fleet would be considered. At this meeting, he will need to read a report on the need for this appropriation; the report drawn up by the Naval General Staff does not satisfy him because of its excessive length, low comprehensibility for non-specialists and low persuasiveness, so he suggested that I, as a mathematician, write this report briefly, clearly and convincingly
          ».
          If the fleet was, so why renew it.
          And you won’t build a fleet in two years.
          1. moskowit
            moskowit April 28 2016 19: 45
            -1
            Was, was not, built and with what labor ... But in India and China for "needles" were not sold! At the beginning of the century there were malfeasances, and at the end of the century, the same betrayal !!! A huge difference.
      3. alicante11
        alicante11 April 28 2016 13: 49
        0
        Did Russia have a fleet in 1914?


        The fleet was, there were no ships.

        One of the 8 countries capable of producing dreadnought.


        It would be better if the money spent on shell plants for the army. All the same, against the Hochzeflotte 4 Seva cost no more than Caesar with Glory.

        (But the USSR could not build battleships)


        Then Ishmael RI also could not. In general, the IVS correctly prioritized. More important was a strong army than several prestigious vessels.
      4. Alf
        Alf April 29 2016 22: 47
        0
        Quote: AK64
        One of 8 countries capable of producing dreadnought.

        Could these dreadnought be equalized with the British or German?
    4. Diana Ilyina
      Diana Ilyina April 28 2016 10: 19
      +8
      Quote: Record Nadoev
      Quote: AK64
      Surely the fleet by the 14th from the Alpha Centauri came to Russia?

      Did Russia have a fleet in the 14th? Come on, come on. Could this place be more detailed?


      Well, yes, there was such a powerful fleet that the appearance in the Black Sea of ​​Göben and Breslau completely paralyzed the actions of the Black Sea Fleet on Turkish communications!

      I do not like Wikipedia, but it’s a sin not to retype:
      For the Russian Empire, the breakthrough of Göben and Breslau into Constantinople had the most dramatic consequences. Under the influence of Germany, on September 27, 1914, Turkey closed the Dardanelles to merchant ships of all countries, thus cutting the only non-freezing sea trade route and blocking about 90% of the foreign trade of the Russian Empire. Cut off from the allies, deprived of the opportunity to export grain and import weapons, the Russian Empire gradually began to experience serious economic difficulties. It was the economic crisis provoked by the closure of the Black Sea straits that radically influenced the creation of a “revolutionary situation” in Russia, which ultimately led to the overthrow of the Romanov dynasty and the October Revolution.
      1. Aleksander
        Aleksander April 28 2016 11: 19
        +7
        Quote: Diana Ilyina
        Well, yes, there was such a powerful fleet that the appearance in the Black Sea of ​​Göben and Breslau completely paralyzed the actions of the Black Sea Fleet on Turkish communications!


        Sorry, but you just don’t own the knowledge — the actions of the Black Sea Fleet were mostly excellent. It was he who made a complete blockade of the Bosphorus, drove the Turks into straits and ports, became the full master of the Black Sea and carried out brilliant landing operations, arranged a blockade of the coal Zonguldak, as a result of which coal from Turkey and German ships were brought from .. Europe.
        Russia was recognized world leader in AIRCRAFT NAVY и naval aviation (Russian aircraft Grigorovich), and AUG of Russia (one of the first in the world) bombed the enemy in Zonguldak, bombed Istanbul, the Bosphorus, Trebizond, Varna and other enemy targets.
        First in the world Russian underwater minesag "Crab" carried out underwater installations of mines in the Bosphorus and Varna.
        Brilliant victories (dozens of ships) won underwater Russian-built boats and designed in Russia ("Walrus", etc.), etc.
        PS Geben was blown up on Russian mines and barely reached, Breslau generally sank after an explosion on mines.
        1. Pilat2009
          Pilat2009 April 28 2016 21: 36
          +2
          Quote: Aleksander
          Breslau generally sank after an explosion on mines.

          Well this one sank in English mines, on the other side of the Bosphorus
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. yehat
        yehat April 28 2016 12: 29
        +1
        Geben and Breslau paralyzed trade, not because they were cooler than the Black Sea squadron, but because they had the speed to get away from its main forces.
        At the same time, they were afraid of skirmishes with the new battleships ala "Empress Maria" like fire.
      4. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk April 28 2016 14: 32
        0
        Quote: Diana Ilyina
        Well, yes, there was such a powerful fleet that the appearance in the Black Sea of ​​Göben and Breslau completely paralyzed the actions of the Black Sea Fleet on Turkish communications!

        Wow :))) You still haven't mixed up anything? The Black Sea Fleet, in fact, systematically cut off Turkish sea lanes, which is why they could not supply the coastal flank with the sea and did not provide a sufficient supply of coal to Istanbul
      5. aleks_29296
        aleks_29296 April 28 2016 16: 07
        +4
        Well, yes, there was such a powerful fleet that the appearance in the Black Sea of ​​Göben and Breslau completely paralyzed the actions of the Black Sea Fleet on Turkish communications!


        The question is not in the fleet, but in the commander. Why, under Kolchak, the "paralyzed" Black Sea Fleet chased Goeben and Breslau like hares?
        1. AK64
          AK64 April 28 2016 20: 10
          -2
          The question is not in the fleet, but in the commander. Why, under Kolchak, the "paralyzed" Black Sea Fleet chased Goeben and Breslau like hares?


          For example, because Ebergard did not have dreadnoughts - they did not have time to finish building.
        2. Record Nadoev
          Record Nadoev April 28 2016 20: 37
          0
          Quote: aleks_29296
          Why, under Kolchak, the "paralyzed" Black Sea Fleet chased Goeben and Breslau like hares?

          Did he drive them? Why did Geben and Breslau not know about this?
          Breslau had 27 knots, Goeben had 28,5 knots. who could "drive" the robotizers running at a speed of 16 knots of squadron speed?
          Even if the "imperials", then this is only 21 nodes.
          Perfectly Geben and Breslau raided communications. And no one bothered them there. There was nothing.
          Films should be watched less about various losers in suits of military cut.
          1. Pilat2009
            Pilat2009 April 29 2016 14: 54
            0
            Quote: Record Nadoev
            Perfectly Geben and Breslau raided communications

            Well, let’s voice their achievements outside the first days of the war. How many transports did they sink and how many times did they fire at ports and cities?
      6. Pilat2009
        Pilat2009 April 28 2016 16: 22
        0
        Quote: Diana Ilyina
        that the appearance of Göben and Breslau in the Black Sea completely paralyzed the actions of the Black Sea Fleet on Turkish communications!

        But with the introduction of the Empresses, the situation became just the opposite.
        You TTX then take into account a little
        1. Record Nadoev
          Record Nadoev April 28 2016 20: 25
          0
          Quote: Pilat2009
          But with the introduction of the Empresses, the situation became just the opposite.

          From what? Goeben, as he raided, so he did. What were the Empress, what was not. How could they influence him?
          1. Pilat2009
            Pilat2009 April 28 2016 21: 32
            +1
            Quote: Record Nadoev
            How could they influence him?

            You know, Geben just started SWIMMING, and not raiding and walking. And when the girls appeared, he just retreated. Nevertheless, his speed was higher, which gave him freedom of maneuver. And in Istanbul, the Turks began to heat dung, as coal transportation was paralyzed
          2. Record Nadoev
            Record Nadoev April 28 2016 23: 20
            0
            Quote: Pilat2009
            And when the girls appeared, he just retreated

            Do not fantasize. With his speed, what the girls, what the boys did not interest him at all. And he was not disturbed.
            Quote: Pilat2009
            And in Istanbul, the Turks began to drown dung, as coal transport was paralyzed

            I am embarrassed to ask, where did they bring coal to Istanbul along the Black Sea, that the Russian fleet blocked this supply? If from Russia, what has the fleet to do with it? If from Bulgaria, then there were overland transport routes. The same applies to Romania, she was initially on the side of Austria-Hungary. And there were no other countries in that region. Therefore, this "scary story about coal" looks anecdotal.
          3. Pilat2009
            Pilat2009 April 29 2016 14: 24
            0
            Quote: Record Nadoev
            I’m embarrassed to ask where the coal was brought to Istanbul from the Black Sea.

            Does the name Zonguldak say anything?
    5. The comment was deleted.
  2. Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy April 28 2016 17: 06
    0
    Quote: Diana Ilyina
    Quote: Record Nadoev
    Quote: AK64
    Surely the fleet by the 14th from the Alpha Centauri came to Russia?

    Did Russia have a fleet in the 14th? Come on, come on. Could this place be more detailed?


    Well, yes, there was such a powerful fleet that the appearance in the Black Sea of ​​Göben and Breslau completely paralyzed the actions of the Black Sea Fleet on Turkish communications!

    I do not like Wikipedia, but it’s a sin not to retype:
    For the Russian Empire, the breakthrough of Göben and Breslau into Constantinople had the most dramatic consequences. Influenced by Germany on September 27, 1914, Turkey closed the Dardanelles to merchant ships

    You probably do not know, the allied united fleet stormed the straits with zero result. Well, Goeben from Empress Maria clogged under a Turkish skirt.
  3. Termit1309
    Termit1309 April 29 2016 14: 17
    0
    For blondes. And if Turkey closed the straits without Geben? Like brave Russian trade transports, crushing coastal batteries with fire, broke through the blockade with battle?
  • Uncle Murzik
    Uncle Murzik April 28 2016 10: 17
    +3
    The total losses of the Russian Imperial Fleet exceeded the losses of the US Navy during the four years of the war in the Pacific Ocean of 1941-1945. A sad list of 64 lost ships is distributed as follows: 20 ships (31%) were sunk by artillery fire, the torpedoes alone, the Japanese failed to sink a single Russian ship - 0 (0%), 3 ships were destroyed by joint artillery and torpedoes (5% ), 6 ships (9%) were lost on mines. Thrown / flooded / blown up by their crews as a result of damage from artillery fire / torpedoes / min / just hopelessness and not knowing what to do: 27 ships (42%!), 5 ships (8%) were captured by the enemy, lost as a result of navigational damage 3 ships (5%). The most direct and most important responsibility for these gigantic losses, in addition to the tsarist regime itself, lies with very specific people. These are admirals: Z.P. Rozhestvensky, V.K. Vitgeft, O.V. Stark.
    1. Record Nadoev
      Record Nadoev April 28 2016 10: 50
      +1
      Quote: Uncle Murzik
      The torpedoes alone, the Japanese failed to sink a single Russian ship - 0 (0%)

      Navarin was torpedoed twice and rolled over on the night of May 14-15. During the day under Tsushima, he received minor damage.
      Sisoy and Nakhimov were flooded by the crews some time after the torpedo that night.
      This is so that I remembered.
    2. Record Nadoev
      Record Nadoev April 29 2016 11: 48
      0
      Quote: Uncle Murzik
      These are admirals: Z.P. Rozhestvensky, V.K. Vitgeft, O.V. Stark.

      In fact, Wittgeft in your list of losers should be replaced by Makarov. And Witgeft was the ONLY of all the pluses (a third of the Japanese fleet in his account with zero losses).
  • revnagan
    revnagan April 28 2016 11: 28
    +2
    Quote: AK64
    Surely the fleet by the 14th from the Alpha Centauri came to Russia?

    And the war ended in 1905. How could the 1914 fleet help Russia win the war with Japan in 1905 ??? fool In order to continue the war, Russia needed a fleet in 1905 — to oppose the Japanese fleet and disrupt communications (military transportation from the mother country to the mainland). And in 1905 the fleet lay at the bottom!
    1. AK64
      AK64 April 28 2016 20: 17
      +2
      How could the 1914 fleet help Russia win the 1905 war with Japan ??? fool In order to continue the war, Russia needed a fleet in 1905, to oppose the Japanese fleet and disrupt communications (military transportation from the mother country to the mainland). And in 1905 the fleet lay at the bottom!


      In order to win, it would be enough to defeat the Japanese army in Manchuria.

      So, in order to defeat the Japanese in Manchuria, it was not necessary to be Suvorov, because by August 1905 the Russians (finally building up the railway) concentrated up to 600 thousand people there. And they continued to deliver troops.

      The Japanese reserves were completely exhausted: the Japanese had already called on all who were most suitable. As a result of the draft, the morale of the Japanese army was already lower than the plinth, and the Japanese economy ... went to the full minus.

      So where were they going to fight?

      Another thing is that they, in Japan, did not have an "American embassy" (this is what I mean "a coup is not possible in America because there is no American embassy")
  • AK64
    AK64 April 28 2016 09: 36
    -2
    Wait, now the "oleg monarchist" will come running here and tear the author to shreds with his "arguments"!

    Do you, as I understand it, have problems with the "fifth column"?
    It would seem, well, after all, they gave you their own state - well, build, prove that you are smarter than everyone. But you are not capable - you are only capable of prancing around on camel forums, "proving" that everyone else is dumber than you.

    He yesterday issued such pearls about the great achievements of Nikolaev Russia, about the powerful heavy industry and developed economy.

    So you don’t know just ... Or the training manual is out of date.
    In fact, everything is true, everything was just that: by the beginning of the WWII, Russia had caught up with such a developed old country as France.


    True, the question of why such a monster like the Russian Empire lost the purely Russian-Japanese war could not clearly answer.

    / terribly surprised /
    Madam, who told you that she "lost"?
    In my opinion, I just won - so the British had to save the "client" with all their might.


    At the same time, all these newly-minted "gentlemen" and "lords", imagining themselves "white bone" and "blue blood", accuse Lenin of losing the First World War!

    They are, of course, in vain: everything was done BEFORE Lenin.
    Lenin should be blamed for the genocide of the Russian people and the donation of half of Russia to Germany. (However, this did not save Germany: so I tried in vain)

    Arguments that the war was lost by the beginning of 1917,

    / fell off a chair /
    Really won the WWI Germany?
    Here is the news so the news!

    In general, these Russophobia tires ...
    And where did they come from in such commodity quantities? Here you are, for example, where did you come from? Brighton Beach?
    1. Diana Ilyina
      Diana Ilyina April 28 2016 10: 06
      +7
      Quote: AK64
      Here you are, for example, where did you come from? Brighton Beach?


      The man said "not a Russophobe," with a Spanish flag over Ava ... lol

      Well, if you are very interested, then from the city of Belaya Kalitva, Rostov Region!
    2. Pre-cat
      Pre-cat April 28 2016 10: 59
      +8
      Quote: AK64
      In fact, everything is true, everything was just that: by the beginning of the WWII, Russia had caught up with such a developed old country as France.

      And in what way did we catch up with France by the year 14? Aviation engines were not produced from the word "in general", automobile engines were produced by Russo-Balta in single copies, and especially advanced engineers were "on their knees" in their workshops. Tracked vehicles - tractors, excavators - were not even in the projects. And, yes, in the royal garage, a couple of cars on a half-track propulsion was, by the way, our development - progress, however. Heavy field artillery - howitzers, guns, mortars - was negligible, while the Motovilikh artillery plant in Perm was sitting without orders. (More than half of the ship's armor was purchased abroad - including from Krupp. If you list everything thoroughly with a breakdown - why and why, you need to write not even a separate article, but a whole book. So how did we catch up with France?
      1. Diana Ilyina
        Diana Ilyina April 28 2016 11: 37
        +10
        Quote: Cat undereducated
        So where did we catch up to France?


        Here it would be more correct to ask a question not what, but where did we catch up with France ?! Answer: in the sick imagination of Mr. AK64 and similar trolls!
      2. AK64
        AK64 April 28 2016 20: 22
        +2
        And what did we catch up to by the year 14?


        By the ox product.
        And with the new technologies, the French not only overtook Russia, but even Boritania and even the USA (at some stage).

        Look at the occasion, the production of cars by country and by year - you will find a considerable surprise.

        Nevertheless, the cattle product was caught up.
        But according to new technologies, the same French and the USSR did not catch up.

        And if you mentioned the motors - I will inform you that the first purely Soviet engine was the Mikulinsky AM-34. All that is before, much of which after - licensing.

        Heavy field artillery - howitzers, cannons, mortars are negligible.

        And the French at the beginning of the war did not have such at all - and so what?
    3. revnagan
      revnagan April 28 2016 11: 50
      0
      Quote: AK64
      In fact, everything is true, everything was just that: by the beginning of the WWII, Russia had caught up with such a developed old country as France.

      By what indicators and in what areas?
      Quote: AK64
      In my opinion, I just won - so the British had to save the "client" with all their might.

      The winning side, at least, does not lose its territory. And it grows new. And with whose help the Yapi won, the question is different ...
      Quote: AK64
      Lenin should be blamed for the genocide of the Russian people and the donation of half of Russia to Germany.

      Is it possible that Lenin gave Russia to the Kaiser across the Urals? That is how Kutuzov can be accused of giving half of Russia to Napoleon Bonaparte. However, the Germans were not even close to Moscow, and you ... "half of Russia ..." By the way, 20% of Russian land-Alaska-who sold amers? Lenin? Or the Russian Emperor, the anointed of God and the first nobleman of Russia? And where in the end were the territories "sold" by Lenin and the emperor?
      Quote: AK64
      Really won the WWI Germany?

      WWI was won by America and England, and Russia was "written off" by 1917. "The Moor has done his job, the Moor can leave ..." The country was destroyed by the war to its foundations. Is this a sign of a victorious country? Economy, vertical of power, industry, to dust ."Pyrrhic victory.
      1. AK64
        AK64 April 28 2016 20: 36
        +3
        By what indicators and in what areas?

        By gross product

        The winning side, at least, does not lose its territory. And it grows new. And with whose help the Yapi won, the question is different ...

        You can win on the battlefield - and .... remain without anything. There are many examples of this.

        Did Lenin give Russia to the Kaiser in the Urals?

        In terms of population and economic importance - exactly half. And where does the territory? Germans never needed anything other than Ukraine. (Which, by the way, is now clearly visible)

        By the way, who sold 20% of Russian land-Alaska-to amers?

        Eva as a province of sex to write ... Alaska is already blamed ... Funny, funny ...

        Well, I’ll inform you: THEN the USA was a friend and ally - that is, it was presented to a friend and ally.

        WWI was won by America and England, and Russia was "written off" by 1917. "The Moor did his job, the Moor can leave ...

        I'm not sure that you understand what you wrote.

        Exactly so: after looking at the expected consequences of the victory, and being completely confident in this victory, Britain and France decided at the same time to write off Russia. And they wrote off.

        But I don’t understand why it personally pleases you so much. You, apparently, from 17%?


        "The country was destroyed by the war to the ground. Is this a sign of a victorious country? The economy, the vertical of power, industry are in dust." Pyrrhic victory.


        Oh, you just need to retell stories.
        Already kGermany was destroyed - and nothing. France was destroyed much more than Russia - especially considering that they fought on its territory. And nothing. And only in Russia, in the WELL-BEING Russia, suddenly "everything fell apart" (and tears).

        Nothing fell apart in Russia --- the shell goals were overcome by the end of 1915. The army was full without Lend-Lease. And armed.
        By the end of 1916, the tsar was under arms - 15 million (!!!) fed snouts.

        That is why it was necessary to "leave the Moor."
  • goose
    goose April 28 2016 11: 56
    +3
    The only plant that could build something in RI, in Nikolaev, belonged to French capital. He alone built exactly as many as all state-owned factories combined (there were 7!), And even more.
    The reason is banal - it is the desire to squeeze the last penny to the detriment of everything - timing, quality, capital turnover.
    But the apotheosis of the shame of the tsarist regime was the situation with 3-inch shells for the army on the eve of the First World War. After the scandalous report of the Ministry of War on the catastrophic shortage of these shells in the army, state-owned manufactories not only were not expanded, but also stood idle for the war for 2 years, without orders. This is despite the fact that that report clearly stated that the lack of shells for the army in the available states (which were directly called obsolete and required an increase of 2–3 times), the cash manufactories were not able to satisfy, it was necessary to expand the capacity for producing shells by 3 times and double the production of gunpowder. This is despite the fact that the Republic of Ingushetia has just lost the REV, and had combat experience with specific goals and priorities of military development. And still, with the outbreak of war, these shells were bought from private traders at a triple price, and even worse quality than at state-owned enterprises, and there was no chance of overcoming the deficit.
    And there were many such examples - armored cars, aircraft engines, steam turbines, artillery, machine guns, mortars, optics, airplanes, anti-aircraft guns, a railway, a telegraph, radio equipment, electrics, torpedoes - literally technical committees, military and engineering corps showed satisfactory competence but the state, as a manager, showed a fantastic inability to meet deadlines, budget and quality.
    1. yehat
      yehat April 28 2016 13: 51
      +2
      nevertheless, the apotheosis of not the tsarist regime, but specifically of what happened under Nicholas 2.
      He himself withdrew from public affairs long before the real abdication, and the state apparatus, oriented personally at him, began to fall apart.
      that's all. In theory, the nobility was to organize a coup about 1905, when everything became clear and did not wait until everything began to fall apart, but Alexander-3 set up a colossal credit of trust, which somewhat relaxed everyone.
      1. AK64
        AK64 April 28 2016 21: 16
        0
        and specifically what happened under Nicholas-2. He also withdrew from public affairs long before the real abdication

        For example, apparently, when he assumed the duties of the Commander-in-Chief?

        and the state apparatus, oriented personally at it, began to fall apart.

        The device did not fall apart. The apparatus collapsed only as a result of the rule of the Provisional.
        But they deliberately destroyed him - until the arrests of leaders. And the middle and lower link of the apparatus simply refused to cooperate with them.

        In theory, the nobility was to organize a coup about 1905,

        Are you calling for treason during the war?

        Alexander 3 put a colossal credit of trust,

        This is an amazing thing: for the Soviet people, for some reason, the opposite is true. Alexander 3 is perhaps the most unfortunate of all the Romanovs. But it was him, the unsuccessful one, who for some reason the Soviet exalt.

        But Alexander-3 left his son an overheated steam boiler with a flattened sledgehammer valve.

        But Nikolai did it.

        But he could not cope with treason.

        But note: you did everything according to your recipe --- a conspiracy during the war. How did it end?
        1. yehat
          yehat April 29 2016 14: 04
          0
          read what Tirpitz writes about contacts with Russians, how he criticizes the behavior of nobles, emphasizing that they, by their behavior, substitute and destroy tsarist power. It's not about treason, but about what they did what they wanted, and the king did not intervene. You are talking about an interim government,
          but the destruction began much earlier. The appearance of a temporary is a consequence, not a cause.
  • Proxima
    Proxima April 28 2016 12: 23
    +5
    Quote: Diana Ilyina
    Wait, now "Oleg the monarchist" will come running here and tear the author to shreds with his "arguments"! Yesterday he gave out such pearls about the great achievements of Nikolayev's Russia, about the mighty heavy industry and the developed economy.

    Not about what kind of developed economy we can talk about PRINCIPLE! If, in terms of absolute GDP, 160 million Russia at least somehow looked "worthy", it was in 5th place and was inferior to the United States, Germany, England, France, then our country was in full per capita GDP ... It is even a shame to cite such statistics ... Let's get back to absolute GDP figures. It's no secret that the lion's share of the Empire's GDP was made up of agricultural products and primitive handicrafts. High-tech manufacturing was in its infancy. Suffice it to say that in terms of electricity production we were inferior even to dwarf (in terms of population) NORWAY! And such sectors of the economy as engine building, chemical, pharmaceutical, electrical and others - simply did not exist! And then we talk about what a good "innocently murdered" Nikolashka was, elevated to the rank of saints, and what a bad "bloody" Stalin.
    1. AK64
      AK64 April 28 2016 21: 19
      +3
      then our country was in full per capita GDP ... Even it is a shame to give such statistics. It is better to return the absolute indicators of GDP.


      And you take and count the GDP of the British Empire.
      Not England, but the whole empire.

      And then, in fact, it turns out funny "arithmetic": how to count Russia so with the colonies, and how Britain - so only England.
      Why is that?
      1. Dart2027
        Dart2027 April 28 2016 22: 37
        0
        Quote: AK64
        And then, in fact, it turns out funny "arithmetic": how to count Russia so with the colonies, and how Britain - so only England.

        I already asked about this more than once, and as a rule I did not wait for an answer
  • Oleg Monarchist
    Oleg Monarchist April 28 2016 18: 43
    +2
    Quote: Diana Ilyina Wait, now the "oleg monarchist" will come running here and tear the author to shreds with his "arguments"!

    Have a nice one you too hi
    He yesterday issued such pearls about the great achievements of Nikolaev Russia, about the powerful heavy industry and developed economy.

    And what kind of "pearls" did I "give out"? The only thing I said is that the economy of the Russian Empire in comparison with the economies of other states TOGO time (and not after 30-40-50 years, which I think is stupid to compare and only complete idiots can do such a comparison) was not in the last places. the author of the topic, using several examples, concludes that everything was bad. And many ships were built on domestic witches.
    By the way: in 1937-1939, by order of the USSR, the leader of the destroyers "Tashkent" was built in Italy, which was considered one of the best examples of shipbuilding of the 30s. In 1940, the USSR bought the unfinished heavy cruiser Lutzow from Germany for 104 million Reichsmarks.
    In Gdansk, for the USSR, several dozen medium-sized landing ships (projects 770, 771, 773) and 28 large landing ships of project 775 were built, 15 of which still serve in the Russian Navy. In the GDR for the USSR Navy in 1986-90, a series of 12 small anti-submarine ships of project 1331M was built (eight of them remain in the Russian fleet).
    And from this I, in theory, should conclude "everything is gone, the economy is destroyed, the USSR
    cheated "? laughing Similar conclusions are usually born in the heads of stubborn Sovdepovtsy. I do not belong to their number.
    At the same time, all these newly-minted "gentlemen" and "lords", imagining themselves "white bone" and "blue blood", accuse Lenin of losing the First World War! Arguments that the war was lost by the beginning of 1917 have no effect on them.

    Madam, stop attributing to me your own perversions about "masters". Give at least one similar phrase of mine as an example. And regarding the loss of the First World War in 1917, I advise you to try to defend a thesis ... Undoubtedly, it will be a "masterpiece" laughing
    They also do not care about the fact that the Tsar was overthrown in February 1917, and it was not the Bolsheviks who overthrew it, namely the nobility and members of the royal family, that is, those who had to protect this power at the cost of their lives.

    But the Bolsheviks, in the Soviet school, in history textbooks, argued the opposite ... They lied, Paskuda. good
    Well, yes, just like the communists ruined nafig USSR ... all that after 74 years. By the way, as a monarchist, he voted in 1991 to preserve the USSR, but the Bolshevik partigenigenosses decided differently.
    1. Oleg Monarchist
      Oleg Monarchist April 28 2016 18: 44
      +2
      Quote: Diana Ilyina Although what to take from them, the Pepsi generation has seen enough of modern nonsense such as "admiral" and "sunstroke" and imagines themselves to be the descendants of the white "noble" officers,

      "Generation Pepsi" .... interesting. By the way, what year are you, girl. I, for example, 1971, hardly belong to this generation. "Admiral" looked .... so-so, at one time, what kind of "sunstroke"? Again, you ascribe to me some "concerns", I am an officer anyway, the bones are really white, but the blood is red ...
      forgetting at the same time how this very officers went in orderly ranks as part of the Wehrmacht to cleanse Mother Russia from the "Bolshevik infection"

      At the same time, ask how many "Russian formations" were in the armies of the countries that fought against the Republic of Ingushetia. No one. But there are plenty of examples when tribal Bolsheviks fought against the Red Army during the Great Patriotic War.
  • iouris
    iouris April 28 2016 16: 27
    +2
    Especially on the eve of the 100th anniversary.
  • Record Nadoev
    Record Nadoev April 28 2016 09: 39
    +3
    Quote: Korsar4
    Now it's time to decide who is on our side of the barricade.

    You would stop these barricades. And then after all, it’s not so long in terms of population and the level of Monaco. And along with this already in area.
    1. AK64
      AK64 April 28 2016 09: 59
      +4
      You would stop these barricades. And then after all, it’s not so long in terms of population and the level of Monaco. And along with this already in area.


      They cannot without barricades.

      I explain:
      (1) Russians in the USSR were the only discriminated group of the population (only Cossacks were worse than Russians - well, yes, Cossacks can be considered part of the Russian ethnic group, you won’t be mistaken)
      (2) since the Russians were the discriminated part, then the privileged part was also meant.
      (3) privileges must be fought - with teeth and claws. Here they and fight. And they continue.
      (4) But here is the problem: the fact is that Russians in the Russian Federation --- 83% of the population. And the rest? accordingly, only 17%. (And of these 17%, most of them are with the Russians in an old friendship.) Under these conditions, it is fair to "fight" them impossible.

      So them is left? Yes, only to slander the Russians, and the Russians are proving that they, Russians, are fools and drunkards.

      That's about this and the "barricades".
      And the "article" is about the same.
      1. revnagan
        revnagan April 28 2016 11: 53
        -1
        Quote: AK64
        they are fighting.

        "... they are fighting ..." Eh, also to me, a Russian ...
  • Vend
    Vend April 28 2016 09: 46
    +9
    Quote: Korsar4
    Thanks. Useful article. But one thing is a given: who produced the products. Another is the division into white and black bones. Long shared. Now it's time to decide who is on our side of the barricade.

    It is time to dismantle the barricades and begin to raise the country. Not fought with each other? Soon there will be 100 years of squabbling and sharing in red and white.
    1. alexej123
      alexej123 April 29 2016 12: 59
      0
      Exactly". From that, the Republic of Ingushetia and the USSR disappeared, that they could not sit down and come to an agreement. Everyone wanted now, at once and a lot. Whoever said what, anarchists, monarchists, Bolsheviks, Mensheviks, etc., whoever blamed whom - the result was the same, as in the song by Lyube - "The Russians are chopping the Russians." Indeed, may be enough? Here I agree with amers - "Whether she is right or not - this is MY COUNTRY." This is her story - positive or negative, bloody or not.
  • Pilat2009
    Pilat2009 April 28 2016 16: 13
    +1
    "which knew how to do everything. Import substitution in the most important industries (military, nuclear, space) was 100%."
    About how. And how many battleships did the USSR build?
    There are completely different concepts of warfare. Yes, over time, they learned to do everything, but not the fact that Russia would not have gone this way. Here are some good English, built a fleet of dreadnought. At the same time, they did not launch a single rocket into space, instead of normal tanks they riveted some kind of misunderstanding, and stole their aircraft industry.
  • avia12005
    avia12005 April 28 2016 19: 27
    +2
    The article is incomplete - the role of Chubais's great-grandfather in the collapse is not reflected drinks
  • astronom1973n
    astronom1973n April 28 2016 06: 26
    +13
    And the descendants of the runaway degenerates will whine for a long time in Paris about "Russia, which they lost."
    They are back again! am
    1. Alekseev
      Alekseev April 28 2016 07: 28
      +2
      Quote: astronom1973n
      Years passed and the country recovered. Completely.

      They do not like self-confident and superficial opuses.
      After all, “years passed” and the “cured country” collapsed, although no one denies the great achievements during the years of Soviet power.
      So it was not quite that "cure" was.
      And the Russian Empire was on the 5th place in the world in industrial development.
      Like, probably, now.
      As for the fact that we lost a lot, then, yes, we lost something, and very significant, but gained something, also great.
      There is no black and white color in history. yes
      1. Record Nadoev
        Record Nadoev April 28 2016 10: 34
        +4
        Quote: Alekseev
        And the Russian Empire was on the 5th place in the world in industrial development.

        Please read the entire list. And then after all, and until 1 place to agree not for long.
        Quote: Alekseev
        Like, probably, now.

        And then. 12th place in terms of GDP (1,71% of the world level) and 68th in terms of GDP per inhabitant (1% of the world average), this is a clear sign of 85th place. According to the latest indicator, it is slightly worse than Turkey, but slightly better than Turkmenistan.
  • Uncle Murzik
    Uncle Murzik April 28 2016 06: 30
    +13
    article plus! present Russia is the direct heir to tsarist Russia, with its sores!
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. SuperFly
      SuperFly April 28 2016 06: 55
      +3
      Such a subtle irony ...

      There were also Russian engines on Ilya Muromets
      The whole Entente used a Russian gas mask, otherwise it is not known whatsoever

      Sikorsky is clearly not degenerate, but Tupolev B-29 copied
      Soviet Yaks flew WWII with improved licensed copies of the Spanish-Suiz 1932 engines
      1. inkass_98
        inkass_98 April 28 2016 07: 24
        +13
        Quote: SuperFly
        Soviet Yaks flew WWII with improved licensed copies of the Spanish-Suiz 1932 engines

        Dear father, you can recall the pedigree of the T-26, BT (together with the M-5 engines), T-34, about almost all light vehicles, about the Fordson tractor, etc. etc. Where are the origins of all this?
        Only the lazy did not talk about corruption in the royal family, this is not a secret at all. And the activities of the "elder" Grisha Rasputin were quite in the same vein.
        After all, the question is not that Sikorsky was a degenerate - there is no need to distort, there wasn’t a word about that. The problem, as now, is that there are talents with great ideas, Western developments prefer to implement our bureaucrats, because there is an incentive.
        1. AK64
          AK64 April 28 2016 08: 58
          -6
          Only the lazy did not talk about corruption in the royal family, this is not a secret at all.

          Yes, there are really many who want to lie.
          The facts are worse.


          And the activities of the "elder" Grisha Rasputin were quite in the same vein.

          I have already spoken several times, and I will repeat it for you personally.
          EVERYTHING we live in is the Internet, so learn how to use it, finally!
          Find all the photos of Rasputin - and make sure ALL the photos where he is in the group - EVERYTHING ... photo shop.
          ALL is a fake.
          And on the screen, modern man, this is visible with the naked eye.

          And then think about it - what scale is a fake, and to whom and why was it necessary.

          So: there was no Rasputin, it was invented in 1916, first by the Germans, as an element of military propaganda. But they developed an invention already in 1917, "temporary" - because they needed to "portray" the decay in the royal family.

          In reality, Rasputin is a petty employee of the church’s church department (there was such a department)

          "Rasputin" was created by the Germans in 1916, in the form of war propaganda. Then the "temporary" ones were promoted. After 1917, he was safely forgotten. Again "Rasputin" came out of oblivion only in the 70s.

          Interestingly, why did he suddenly become needed in the 70s? Apparently, communism (promised by 1980) was undecided, so it took past Russian people denigrate

          The problem, as now, is that there are talents with great ideas, Western developments prefer to implement our bureaucrats, because there is an incentive.

          Not true.
          It's just that most of the "great domestic developments" for some reason did not work - and there was no one to ask.
          And with the West it’s simple: they bought a license. Does not work? Well, so the complaint!

          Well, in Rossi (and in the USSR) there was no engineering school of its own - corny not had time she arise.

          This is precisely where, by the beginning of WWI, such a school arose. But ... she was sent to the USA --- this is unnecessary to the proletarians.
          1. Diana Ilyina
            Diana Ilyina April 28 2016 09: 32
            +11
            Quote: AK64
            Find all the photos of Rasputin - and make sure ALL the photos where he is in the group - EVERYTHING ... photo shop.
            ALL is a fake.


            Yeah, the "fake" and newsreel footage of Rasputin surrounded by the royal couple, the British forged in order to discredit the "good" name of the empress ... Ha-ha, three times!

            Most of all I am touched by the "guardians" of Russia, with foreign flags above the avs, I-la suiden & spain!
            1. AK64
              AK64 April 28 2016 09: 49
              -5
              Yeah, the "fake" and newsreel footage of Rasputin surrounded by the royal couple, the British forged in order to discredit the "good" name of the empress ... Ha-ha, three times!


              Oh!
              Daily News.
              It turns out there is already a "newsreel".

              Come on, madam Russophobe, find it. Show the audience the "newsreel".

              Most of all I am touched by the "guardians" of Russia, with foreign flags above the avs, I-la suiden & spain!

              Well, not everyone can speak through procts from MSCs.
              However, the Your and there are many in the MSCs - they are sitting on foreign funding and watered with Russian slop.
              1. AllXVahhaB
                AllXVahhaB April 28 2016 23: 48
                -1
                Is this not a royal family?
                1. Oleg Monarchist
                  Oleg Monarchist April 29 2016 12: 43
                  0
                  Quote: AllXVahhaBIs this not a royal family?


                  The Bolsheviks are already photoshop leftist sculpt laughing
                  1. AllXVahhaB
                    AllXVahhaB April 29 2016 14: 04
                    0
                    Expose further. It will be more difficult to wipe wink
                    1. Oleg Monarchist
                      Oleg Monarchist April 29 2016 14: 39
                      -2
                      Quote: AllXVahhaB Expose further. It will be more difficult to wipe


                      Once again I am convinced of the impenetrable stupidity of the Bolsheviks. What do you think I should "expose"? The first photo you submitted is a fake, the second is not. Rasputin was part of the inner circle of the royal family, there is no doubt about it. Therefore, I could take pictures with them. Is this a crime in your opinion? By the way, this is probably the only photograph of the royal family and Rasputin.
                      1. SuperFly
                        SuperFly April 30 2016 19: 55
                        0
                        This is not stupidity but hutspa, but the truth from its overabundance dulls over time lol
                        On the "bloody pastor" from BYuT does not pull under any retouching ... And in general, he was a good man, in vain even the English MI6 took part in his murder?
            2. Uncle Murzik
              Uncle Murzik April 28 2016 09: 50
              0
              do not pay attention! The AK64 has no arguments, only verbal diarrhea!
              1. Diana Ilyina
                Diana Ilyina April 28 2016 09: 59
                +7
                Quote: Uncle Murzik
                do not pay attention! The AK64 has no arguments, only verbal diarrhea!


                Not that word, he already wrote me down as a "Russophobia" ... I was crying ... crying
          2. revnagan
            revnagan April 28 2016 12: 05
            +2
            Find all the photos of Rasputin - and make sure ALL the photos where he is in the group - EVERYTHING ... photo shop.
            ALL is a fake.
            http://cyclowiki.org/wiki/Файл:Ρασπούτιν.jpg
            Fake? laughing
            1. AK64
              AK64 April 28 2016 21: 26
              0
              Fake? laughing


              Yes, fake.
              And easily visible.

              And you yourself could see it by simply uploading this photo separately to the screen and looking at the contours of the "Gregory" figure.

              Why are you so lazy? Upload a photo separately, isn’t it interesting?

              But if it’s not interesting, then why are you asking questions?
          3. kepmor
            kepmor April 28 2016 13: 21
            +2
            I haven’t read such a heresy for a long time ....
          4. sunzhenets
            sunzhenets April 28 2016 14: 09
            0
            I read different versions about Rasputin, but the fact that he was not there ... This is Pearl !!!
            And then who was killed?
            "Rasputin was killed on the night of December 17, 1916, at the Yusupovs' palace on the Moika. Conspirators: FF Yusupov, VM Purishkevich, Grand Duke Dmitry Pavlovich, MI6 British intelligence officer Oswald Reiner"
          5. AllXVahhaB
            AllXVahhaB April 28 2016 23: 39
            0
            Why lie then? The two richest women in Europe at the time were the Mariinsky ballerinas, mistresses of both Grand Dukes. One ruled naval supplies, the other army. Probably they just shouted from the audience in 1905: "On your diamonds is the blood of our sailors" ...
            About Serdyukov and Vasilyeva, probably, too, "everyone is a lot of lies" ???
            1. Record Nadoev
              Record Nadoev April 28 2016 23: 53
              0
              Quote: AllXVahhaB
              The two richest women in Europe at that time are the ballerina-mariins, the mistresses of both Grand Dukes

              And why only Europe? Write right away, the solar system.
              Well, where are the richest? Far from the very first faces of a beggar in the general country. They had money with Gulkin’s nose. Even if they had given everything to them, which is extremely doubtful, all the same, poor beggars would have turned out.
          6. alexej123
            alexej123 April 29 2016 13: 03
            0
            For the "elder" - KILLED. I have not heard such a version yet.
      2. qwert
        qwert April 28 2016 07: 30
        +9
        Quote: SuperFly
        but Tupolev B-29 copied
        Soviet Yaks flew WWII with improved licensed copies of the Spanish-Suiz 1932 engines

        At the same time, the Tu-4 was better than the B-29. At least for the engine and defensive weapons.
        And M-105, well, very far from Spain-Suiso. A bit like the T-34 from the Cristi tanks. Although perhaps you will say that the T-34 is just the Christians Tank, in which we won the war, praise the Americans? To take the best in the world and do even better is the slogan of the Stalin era.
        1. CosmoKot
          CosmoKot April 28 2016 07: 51
          -3
          Only the trouble: while they copied, until they brought it to mind, while they started up the series, the Tu-4 managed to become obsolete, like the same Sevastopoli.
        2. AK64
          AK64 April 28 2016 09: 12
          -2
          At the same time, the Tu-4 was better than the B-29.

          amused what ...


          To take the best in the world and do even better is the slogan of the Stalin era.

          Funny ...
          That is, if under the tsar, if the Russians borrow something, then this is corruption. And if under Stalin, if you are Soviet, it’s an achievement.

          Funny twists of the "logic" of the Soviet
      3. kig
        kig April 28 2016 08: 39
        +11
        but Tupolev B-29 copied

        This was done on the direct instructions of Stalin, and such an order was tantamount to an order given in wartime. Tupolev did not like this, but such instructions were not discussed. By the way, what happened when copying, Tupolev modestly called the B-4. The name Tu-4, again, Stalin personally traced.
        Copying was still not complete. Our engines were put on the plane (2400 hp instead of 2200 from the original), and guns instead of machine guns were defensive weapons.

        As a result, two years later we received a completely modern machine, and with the development of new equipment, our industry has risen significantly. What's so bad?
      4. AK64
        AK64 April 28 2016 08: 41
        -2
        but Tupolev B-29 copied

        Not only the B-29 ...
        It is believed that Tupolev independently developed only one aircraft.

        Soviet Yaks flew WWII with improved licensed copies of the Spanish-Suiz 1932 engines

        The first truly Soviet engine, Soviet from beginning to end, was the Mikulinsky AM-34. All that comes to him is licensing.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA April 28 2016 10: 56
          +1
          Quote: AK64
          The first truly Soviet engine, Soviet from beginning to end, was the Mikulinsky AM-34. All that comes to him is licensing.

          But what about the M-11?
          1. AK64
            AK64 April 28 2016 21: 30
            0
            But what about the M-11?

            Sorry, forgot about this one.
        2. AllXVahhaB
          AllXVahhaB April 28 2016 23: 57
          0
          And what "really Russian" motors were produced in RI?
      5. Atomist
        Atomist April 28 2016 09: 16
        +9
        Well then Tupolev is not necessary to touch. I know from my own experience that copying a product and technology is much more difficult than developing from scratch. And here is an airplane according to 3 samples. I needed a bomber urgently and no worse than the Americans. I have not heard that such cases were still in history.
        1. AK64
          AK64 April 28 2016 10: 03
          +1
          Well then Tupolev is not necessary to touch. I know from my own experience that copying a product and technology is much more difficult than developing from scratch. And here is an airplane according to 3 samples. I needed a bomber urgently and no worse than the Americans. I have not heard that such cases were still in history.


          About how!
          That is, when they copied under the tsar, it was "corruption."
          And if under Stalin - then this is an achievement and even a feat.

          Amazing twists and turns of "logic" ...
          1. revnagan
            revnagan April 28 2016 12: 09
            +1
            Quote: AK64
            That is, when they copied under the tsar, it was "corruption."

            And what was “copied” under the tsar? The German Albatross? The French Nieuport? The English tank? The battleship Queen Elizabeth?
    3. Record Nadoev
      Record Nadoev April 28 2016 11: 00
      -1
      Quote: Uncle Murzik
      present-day Russia is the direct heir to tsarist Russia, with its sores!

      Actually, the heiress of the USSR is quite officially.
  • rkkasa xnumx
    rkkasa xnumx April 28 2016 06: 45
    +4
    all according to the old, proven scheme. We give them money and gold. They, in return, their technical innovations.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    And it seems like not only money and gold, but also our ideas, ideas, also often went to the West, and there they were already turning into products, which we later bought.
    1. SuperFly
      SuperFly April 28 2016 06: 56
      -1
      Well, Trotsky did this, we give them gold - they give us Eurobonds or bucks ...
      1. Basarev
        Basarev April 28 2016 07: 30
        +3
        And now some of those in power continue to do this ...
    2. AK64
      AK64 April 28 2016 08: 59
      -4
      our ideas, ideas, also often went to the West, and there they were already turning into products that we later bought.


      Give an example.
      1. V.ic
        V.ic April 28 2016 09: 50
        +3
        Quote: AK64
        Give an example.

        Sikorsky, Zvorykin, Gamow.
        1. AK64
          AK64 April 28 2016 10: 07
          -4
          Sikorsky, Zvorykin, Gamow.


          And you are not surprised that all three had to YOU to leave?
          What are they "yours" if "you" pushed them out of the country in the neck?
          And it’s good that they left - and even in the Cheka it would have been possible: there, to them, bourgeois henchmen, and the road!

          So do not stick to someone else's - you personally have refused Russia and all Russian, and slander Russia and Russia. So what do you now cling to?

          You are examples of the Soviet, which "also often went to the West, and there they were already turning into products that we later bought."bring.
          1. V.ic
            V.ic April 28 2016 19: 18
            -1
            Quote: AK64
            because in chk It would be possible: there to them, the bourgeois henchmen, and the road!

            Yeah, would you personally smash the "bourgeois" heads with pleasure? The mood is felt the fighting grandfather is not in that organization served what did you mention in vain?
            Quote: AK64
            So do not stick to someone else's - you personally have refused Russia and all Russian, and slander Russia and Russia.

            From this moment on in more detail: give at least one of my comments where: "they refused from Russia and everything Russian, and slander Russia and this Russian."
            By the way, child EG, about the extreme word = "slander" is written with "e".
            Quote: AK64
            "they also often left for the West, and there they already turned into products, which we then bought." bring.

            Women's boots for example. How our women grabbed Italian shoes with tops, with an inserted lock, and even on the "platform".
            Incandescent light bulb was not invented by Thomas Edison, but by Alexander Nikolaevich Lodygin. From an incandescent bulb to a radio tube one step.
            Aviation gasoline, which the USA supplied under the Lend-Lease in the USSR, where did it come from the Americans? Thanks to the works of Vladimir Nikolaevich Ipatiev, one of the founders of catalytic organic synthesis.
            Maybe it's enough to be blunt already? If you are able to knock on the clave with a "snide" comment, then use the search box for self-education. Why the hell should I spend my time and nerves on your education? You don't pay me for this!
            1. AK64
              AK64 April 28 2016 21: 39
              0
              Women's boots for example.

              Cool...


              Incandescent light bulb was not invented by Thomas Edison, but by Alexander Nikolaevich Lodygin.

              Five points, yeah.
              Light bulb inventors - list on page, in small print. Moreover, in different countries this list will be different.
              And the first on the list for any will be the British.

              Edison invented the tungsten light bulb.

              From an incandescent bulb to a radio tube one step.

              It's a miracle what is ...
              I do not read further - for it is pointless.
              1. V.ic
                V.ic April 29 2016 18: 18
                0
                Quote: AK64
                Edison invented the tungsten light bulb.

                For children EG I will explain that wolfram is written (in the first syllable) through the letter "o". Even in the translation "tungsten" - wolf foam. Pay attention to the most enlightened, there is no letter "a" in the first syllable.
                Edison, for your information, has patented glow element в light bulb... Filament lamp, only. Let such a miracle as a "tungsten lamp" shine brightly in your brain, maybe enlightenment will come in it.
                I advise once again: use the search bar for self-education.
      2. nedgen
        nedgen April 28 2016 10: 52
        +3
        Yes, here's an example, I came across material that the development of the Intel Pentium was based on the development of Zelenograd carried to their authors in the United States.
      3. AllXVahhaB
        AllXVahhaB April 28 2016 23: 59
        0
        Zhores Alferov for what the Nobel Prize?
  • Alceers
    Alceers April 28 2016 07: 14
    +5
    All is true, but the living myth among many of our liberals is the myth of the crunch of French bread
  • Burivad
    Burivad April 28 2016 07: 21
    +1
    I think everything that happened and is happening now is the consequences of foreign activity in Russia.
  • Darkness
    Darkness April 28 2016 07: 30
    +1
    (patterns crackling and crunching French rolls)
    But Russia, Russia was producing something ???
    Or did the current king of cats with crows know how to shoot?
  • UVB
    UVB April 28 2016 07: 43
    +7
    In the photo to the article, the launch of the EBR Pobeda, and this is Borodino:
  • sevtrash
    sevtrash April 28 2016 07: 46
    +4
    "... It will become a state with the best education in the world, with advanced science and a developed industry that knew how to do everything. Import substitution in the most important industries (military, nuclear, space) was 100% ..."
    Of course, a giant step forward was made in comparison with RI. Very often in the USSR the successes of socialist construction were compared in comparison with 1913, even during the times of developed socialism. How was the amount of cast iron produced in the USA and the USSR compared.
    But the author did not say one axiom - the really powerful state of the Soviet Union with a developed economy, education, scientific achievements lost in the technological race and lost in the level of development and efficiency of the same economy, education, scientific work. Worse, this loss, due to an ineffective socio-economic doctrine - socialism - led to the collapse of the state and the loss of territories and population that had been gathered for centuries by the Russian Empire. Blaming everything on Gorbachev, Yeltsin is not enough, they are products of the system and an example of the system’s inefficiency in educating statesmen, which, in fact, is difficult to consider.
    Of course, "tsarist Russia" turned out to be an ineffective state, was lagging behind in socio-economic reforms - as always - but, of course, it had a chance to become an industrial power, if only. But "if" includes a lot of things. If there were no RSDLP and Lenin? Well, they did not arise out of nowhere. The ideas of Plato, Moreau, Leroux, Marx - they would not exist, there would be others. Tsarist Russia, due to the circumstances, only became a victim of the introduction of a new "progressive" socio-economic system. Certainly by its existence, giving impetus to the transformation of capitalist societies.
    There would not be this experiment - maybe now we / we did not live in the type of European state. But this experiment was probably predetermined by the features of the development of the Republic of Ingushetia during the pre-revolutionary millennia.
    1. Uncle Murzik
      Uncle Murzik April 28 2016 07: 52
      -2
      inferior to education, scientific work! belay Well, China lives under socialism, and the US is on its heels!
      1. AK64
        AK64 April 28 2016 08: 11
        +3
        inferior to education, scientific work! belay well, China lives under socialism, and the US is on its heels!


        Pretty funny: in China there is at least one own development?
        1. Uncle Murzik
          Uncle Murzik April 28 2016 08: 37
          -5
          inferior in education, scientific papers are written in the cominte above about the USSR! "Achievements in the field of nanotechnology. Using the technology of surface nanotransformation, employees of the state laboratory of materials science at the Scientific Research Institute of Metal of the Academy of Sciences have successfully implemented surface nitriding of pig iron at a temperature of 3000 C. Scientists of the International Center for Quantum Structure at the Scientific Research Institute of Physics of the Academy of Sciences have discovered a new material - isotactic metal nanogroup. They have introduced into a silicon metal chip, an aluminum atom and created 16 new artificial crystals. "It's not funny, but in China, many of their developments are just a small fraction
          1. AK64
            AK64 April 28 2016 09: 03
            +4
            At least one Chinese INDUSTRIAL development, pliz.
            Not "general theoretical ideas" (everything was also stolen), but exactly existing in the form of a commodity to touch.

            Give an example.

            How many types of cars does "advanced" China make? How many of them are "our"?

            Which "advanced China" is producing aircraft, and how many of them are "own"?

            China's processor has just managed to conquer - and even that one was 80% stolen
            1. Uncle Murzik
              Uncle Murzik April 28 2016 09: 14
              -1
              5. Putting into operation magnetic trains. In 2005, Shanghai completed construction and tested the world's first commercial magnetic cushion train line. This is an important achievement of Sino-German high-tech cooperation. The length of the road was 33 km, the train speeds up to 430 km / h, going all the way in 8 minutes. Scientific and technical personnel in Shanghai conducted more than 140 scientific trials and received 8 patents, which allowed the magnetic cushion transport system to reach an advanced world level. China was the first country to master this technology after Germany and Japan. Still need? hi
              1. AK64
                AK64 April 28 2016 09: 21
                +3
                Commissioning of trains on a magnetic cushion. In 2005, Shanghai completed construction and tested the world's first commercial magnetic cushion train line. This is an important achievement. Sino-German cooperation in the field of high technology.


                Well yes, yes yes --- the German company Transrapid is experimenting on Chinese soil. In Germany, after the actual failure of the M-Bahn in Berlin, funding was not found. Well, they started to introduce the Chinese.

                And if they bring it (I think they will bring it sooner or later - this is a matter of financing), then build yourself tested the Chinese will start.

                Fantasy further
                / and got ready to listen /
                1. Uncle Murzik
                  Uncle Murzik April 28 2016 09: 37
                  0
                  9. Creation of computer systems. In 2003, the Center for the Development of Intelligent Computers at the Institute of Cybernetics of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, together with the Shuguan company, created the Shuguan-4000L multiprocessor computer, which consists of 644 central processors with a storage capacity of 100 trillion bytes. The computing speed was 3 trillion actions per second, the internal memory - 644G, capable of storing 100 trillion bytes. The system can expand online to 80 computers! Well, of course it wasn’t they who invented the computer hi
            2. Uncle Murzik
              Uncle Murzik April 28 2016 09: 38
              0
              7. Dam construction technologies. The original Chinese technique for the construction of dams with a height of more than 100 m, including new technologies for cement compaction during pouring, tile coating, has gained worldwide fame. In 2003, the Sansya Reservoir was successfully filled with water, permanent locks are used in navigation, 6 power units were put into operation. A world record was set for the installation and commissioning of a hydroelectric power station. The water level in the reservoir has already risen to 135 m above sea level. Sanxia Gateways are considered the largest in the world.
              1. AK64
                AK64 April 28 2016 10: 23
                +2
                Not interesting already.

                Not interested

                After such a frank lie with Germanic magnetic road in China - I won’t even read your fiction.
                And I don’t see the time to spend my time on these YOUR inventions.

                (But in general, of course, it's funny: to mean the German magnetic road in China is the achievement of the Chinese. And the ships built by the Russians according to the French project are “corruption of the bloody tsarist regime.” Such is the “logic” of the pusophobes, 17% )
                1. Uncle Murzik
                  Uncle Murzik April 28 2016 10: 41
                  +2
                  drain counted! laughing
          2. The comment was deleted.
      2. magician
        magician April 28 2016 09: 02
        0
        in China, industry rests on the minds of visitors. What will happen if, on command, these minds leave China and what does it come across with?
      3. magician
        magician April 28 2016 09: 02
        0
        in China, industry rests on the minds of visitors. What will happen if, on command, these minds leave China and what does it come across with?
  • parusnik
    parusnik April 28 2016 07: 49
    +3
    Get into the nacelle of the same “Ilya Muromets”. What will you see there? Engines of the Gorynych brand? Right, surprise. Renault... Tsar-tank Lebedenko ... two German engines from a downed airship were delivered if the tests were successful ... And the tank would go into production .. how many engines from downed German airships would be required ..
  • baudolino
    baudolino April 28 2016 07: 53
    +6
    The article is bad. It is designed solely to warm up the instinctual urges of a non-thinking public.
    The author should have known that in the years he writes about it was the norm to buy weapons abroad. And what is now called the word "corruption" and is blamed exclusively for the Russian authorities, was the norm for all the countries of that time.
    If the author is ashamed to be Russian and live in Russia as she is, a tablecloth is dear.
    1. revnagan
      revnagan April 28 2016 12: 15
      +1
      Quote: baudolino
      in the years of which he writes, it was the norm to buy weapons abroad.

      For Russia. Because its own industry "did not pull". Well, there were no capacities. But for Germany, the USA (USA), France, Denmark (DENMARK, Karl!
      ) For Japan (JAPAN! "Losing" the 1905 war, as some here say) it was the norm - to sell weapons abroad! To Russia!
      1. AK64
        AK64 April 28 2016 21: 45
        +1
        For Japan (JAPAN! "Losing" the 1905 war, as some here say) it was the norm to sell arms abroad! To Russia!

        Interesting stuffing of course ...

        In 1904-05, Japan had virtually the entire fleet (with several exceptions) of British construction. Well, something German.

        Artillery is also German.

        But they sold ... indeed, they sold to Russia ... But only when? And during the WWII, when during the shell hunger Russia was ready to buy everything.

        So, even this ridiculous example ... It is about as ridiculous as to reproach the USSR for Lend-Lease - "they received from abroad, corrupt officials"
        1. VEKT
          VEKT April 28 2016 22: 41
          0
          Did shell hunger form out of thin air?
  • AK64
    AK64 April 28 2016 08: 10
    +3
    Political bullshit
    1. Uncle Murzik
      Uncle Murzik April 28 2016 08: 50
      -1
      reasoned answer laughing
  • Retvizan
    Retvizan April 28 2016 08: 21
    +4
    In defense of the Republic of Ingushetia, one can cite the fact that it was a turbulent era of continuous innovations, not all of them managed to be put into production, as they became obsolete. Yes, they built long-term construction, domestic analogues were not always there, because the fleet is an indicator of the development of society and the economy. And with the state of both, it was clearly worse than the first four countries. But they tried. There was an idea to buy the best for the fleet and try to introduce it. Let it be in Russian realities and a rollback system. And the lobbyists of France have always been
    Tsesarevich was one of the best projects of ebres. And the Americans developed the same Russian order for themselves
    Comparisons with Japan - for which the fleet is the main waste and which massively purchased ships and technologies.
    The trouble in RI is not that. And in people, the system, the general idea. And in the Navy, they acted standardly in Those conditions
    The Union also went along this path with a completely different idea, but could not spend so much on the fleet for a long time
    1. AK64
      AK64 April 28 2016 08: 50
      +1
      The trouble in RI is not that. And in people, the system, the general idea.


      Yes, there was no "trouble".
      There was none.
      You can't do everything "according to the pike's command, according to my desire." And they tried to do everything else, everything that was possible.
      1. saturn.mmm
        saturn.mmm April 28 2016 14: 30
        +3
        Quote: AK64
        And everyone else, everything that is possible, tried to do.

        The author is silent that the RI industry has developed over the decade twice sometimes sometimes faster.
        About the guns of medium and mine caliber - the 152- and 75-mm guns of the Canet system in general it is not clear why? Their Obukhov factory manufactured.
        In 1913, celebrating its 50th anniversary, OSZ was considered one of the largest gun and steel enterprises not only in Russia but also in Europe, becoming the main competitor to the German company Krupa and the British Armstrong. During this period, the plant produced more than 90% of the armament for the Navy and more than 50% for the army.

        In addition, metal structures for the Pulkovo Observatory and aircraft engines for the first domestic aircraft of A.F. Mozhaysky were manufactured at the OSZ.
        There were Yakovlev’s engines, there were electric motors of the Russian scientist Jacobi, there was Dolivo-Dobrovolsky with a three-phase current and an induction motor, there was Mendeleev with a periodic table that revolutionized chemistry, there was Tsialkovsky with his missiles.
        In the USSR, education and science to see fell from the sky.
        1. VEKT
          VEKT April 28 2016 22: 43
          0
          Krupp and Armstrong's competitor in whose market? Can you name a lot of countries where his guns were exported?
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA April 28 2016 11: 14
      +2
      Quote: Retvizan
      In defense of the Republic of Ingushetia, one can cite the fact that it was a turbulent era of continuous innovations, not all of them managed to be put into production, as they became obsolete.

      Maxim machine gun. Adopted in 1901, started production in 1904.
      After 10 years, it suddenly turns out that of all the factories in Russia, the same Tula can make a machine gun, the production of which is not enough for the war, even if all the machines and personnel are fully mobilized.
      This is not a novelty, not a new invention. This device, mass-produced for 10 years. But no one but Tula lacks the precision of the machines for its manufacture.
      Quote: Retvizan
      Tsesarevich was one of the best projects of ebres.

      Isn't it "Retvizan"?
      Quote: Retvizan
      And the Americans developed the same Russian order for themselves

      By building 3 Mains. And then they again returned to traditional perversions, building the Virginias with their two-story towers. smile
  • Gray 43
    Gray 43 April 28 2016 08: 40
    0
    Modern Russia has a similar situation, if Smerdyukov had not been removed, then they would have lived up to the purchase of Leopards for the Russian Armed Forces, with the existing production of their own tanks
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA April 28 2016 12: 00
      +1
      Quote: Gray 43
      Modern Russia has a similar situation, if Smerdyukov had not been removed, then they would have lived up to the purchase of Leopards for the Russian Armed Forces, with the existing production of their own tanks

      He-he-he ... in fact, the "Armata" is the work of Serdyukov, who completed the long-running epic of permanent development, production and testing of single prototypes of "golden" wunderpants and set the time frame in which the army should receive a normal new tank ( and not a demonstrator of the capabilities of the tank industry).
      In short, this is like the well-known GKO decree No. 2692 of January 4, 1943, which required the Design Bureau to complete the bagpipe lasting the entire 25 with a 1942-mm assault system and deliver a sample ready for testing and production within 152 days.
  • Good cat
    Good cat April 28 2016 08: 41
    0
    The article is justified.
  • AK64
    AK64 April 28 2016 08: 48
    +3
    The monstrous Russophobic maliciousness and absurdity of this filipka is amazing.

    And how do you like, gentlemen Russophobia? AS?
    After all, Russia as a state did not emerge earlier than the 15th century - in Europah already the "revival" began. And the state of Russia existed in the conditions of 300 years of DAILY won --- for 300 years of 16-17-18 centuries - only THREE peaceful years.

    And it was a war of annihilation, not a joke.

    So what do you Russophobes want from the Russians? Ah, stupid, have not managed to create science in a continuous war? And who would be able to? WHO would be able, every day fighting, also to engage in science?

    In Europe, science began only when life began to improve in the slightest degree, and not an hour earlier. Life in Russia, gentlemen of Russophobia, was much more complicated --- accordingly, there were less funds and people for science.

    So what's so surprising?

    And under these conditions, gentlemen, the Russians managed to create a state which, by the beginning of the WWII, was already ahead of France in terms of production!

    If this is not a feat or an achievement, then what is it?

    In general, the "article" is a typical Russophobic vileness
    1. SuperFly
      SuperFly April 28 2016 20: 09
      -1
      The Russians had science, and it was always no worse than their contemporaries.

      This is a certain Newton, the chairman of the royal mint, spent almost all of his time doing alchemy (all for the same purpose - he was looking for a philosopher's stone to get gold). laughing
    2. VEKT
      VEKT April 28 2016 22: 48
      -1
      Have you forgotten to mention about the Mongol-Tatar yoke, what else always interferes with us there?
    3. yehat
      yehat April 29 2016 15: 02
      +1
      put a plus, but do not agree with something.
      just the war gave impetus to science and scientific and technical progress.
      The problem was different - wars reduced the population, and the most active and therefore valuable part of it, deduced huge resources from the creation of GDP and contributed to the widespread decline in infrastructure and culture. And this is a huge amount in monetary terms. All this led to a drop in trade activity, a slowdown in industrial development, a drop in productivity and stagnation. Compare with England. Its infrastructure was practically not ruined between 1651 and 1940. Compare the constant wars of the Republic of Ingushetia + the European part of the Republic of Ingushetia totally ruined over the period 1650-1942 times 4.
  • Uncle Murzik
    Uncle Murzik April 28 2016 08: 59
    -1
    the article is not a word about Russophobia, if only an inflamed brain! belay
  • Record Nadoev
    Record Nadoev April 28 2016 09: 34
    0
    Quote: A. Dolganov
    As weapons systems, Ivanov’s guns and self-propelled mines of Makarov’s design were adopted ...

    Why Makarova? What did you like so much about? Because of the so-called caps? So it’s no secret that it was the first time Lieutenant Cole (Britain) proposed to use them. In the world of patents in the late 19th century, there was a sea of ​​such caps, just choose. But there were Makarovsky. Due to their unsuccessful design, Russian shells had to be made thick-walled, from this explosive they had a gulkin nose. After the war they were abandoned, but during the life of Makarov, there was not even any thought about this. So, it would be better to immediately buy something imported.
    In fact, the Russian battleships used the telephone communication system of Lieutenant Kolbasyev.
    Quote: A. Dolganov
    Most of the foreign names in the design of the EDB “Borodino” belonged to systems manufactured under license in Russia.

    This was the main ambush.
    Quote: A. Dolganov
    On the technical side, they also met the best international standards. For example, the conventional design of the sectional boiler of the Belleville system and the very successful guns of Gustave Kane.

    Yes? What about the weight of the Belleville boilers? These boilers were good only in that they could rarely be serviced. Those. an old song of idlers and lazy people "for reliability".
    And what about the subsidence (and even breakdown) of the targeting system of the 6 "Russian Kane? And what about the 8" ultralight projectile of the Russian Kane? If the 6 "ballistics can still be counted in half as good, with 8" it will not work.
    There were only 2 decent cannons in the fleet, these are 10 "(because they were GAU and not GIMA) and 47-mm Hotchkiss. 120-mm Kane were still nothing.
    Quote: A. Dolganov
    But, which is especially disappointing, ships at domestic shipyards were built at times slower.

    And each shipyard had its own correction factor. for the implementation of the project. Those. how the shipyard could embody the bottom geometry of the project in metal. For first-class shipyards, this ratio was 1. For second-order shipyards, slightly less than 1. For Russian shipyards, it could have been any, but not 1 (maybe it didn’t notice).
    Quote: A. Dolganov
    The French contract, they who need it - a rollback. Their shipyards are sitting without orders. Industry is degrading. Skilled personnel are not needed.

    Do not worry, Russian shipyards did not stand idle for a single day. At an accelerated pace, self-propelled guns were built for the Russian fleet. In addition, they also built expensively. Almost everything that was capable in the RIF was built abroad. Although there, too, they could easily steam, just relax.
    Quote: A. Dolganov
    There was even time trying to build battleships-dreadnought, so it would be better not to try.

    And the cruisers would be better off not trying, you can only look at the goddesses through tears. And the battleships, the most decent of them (Navarin) was built at a private Franco-Russian plant ("screwdriver", placed orders in France, and assembled them in Russia).
    1. Record Nadoev
      Record Nadoev April 28 2016 09: 35
      -4
      Quote: A. Dolganov
      A widespread lack of production experience, machine tools and competent specialists.

      Milai. Slavery in Russia was officially tried to be abolished only in 1861 (later it was returned again, but with a single feudal lord, it was called "socialism"). Before that, there were simply no people for the factories, they all sat in the villages and were engaged in agriculture. Where will the experts come from?
      Quote: A. Dolganov
      Years passed and the country recovered. Completely. It will become a state with the best education in the world, with advanced science and a developed industry that can do everything. Import substitution in the most important sectors (military industry, atom, space) was 100%.

      One could even laugh at it if it were not so sad. A standard set of soviet agitation is more appropriate on political information, about 30 years ago.
      Quote: A. Dolganov
      And the descendants of the runaway degenerates will whine in Paris for a long time about “Russia that they lost”

      And how do they differ from those who have been piled up in a pile and something plaintively bleating relative to the fact that someone, somewhere and once was afraid of them?
      "The one who lives in the past has no future" (he invented it himself, just now).
    2. Record Nadoev
      Record Nadoev April 28 2016 09: 35
      -1
      Quote: A. Dolganov
      A widespread lack of production experience, machine tools and competent specialists.

      Milai. Slavery in Russia was officially tried to be abolished only in 1861 (later it was returned again, but with a single feudal lord, it was called "socialism"). Before that, there were simply no people for the factories, they all sat in the villages and were engaged in agriculture. Where will the experts come from?
      Quote: A. Dolganov
      Years passed and the country recovered. Completely. It will become a state with the best education in the world, with advanced science and a developed industry that can do everything. Import substitution in the most important sectors (military industry, atom, space) was 100%.

      One could even laugh at it if it were not so sad. A standard set of soviet agitation is more appropriate on political information, about 30 years ago.
      Quote: A. Dolganov
      And the descendants of the runaway degenerates will whine in Paris for a long time about “Russia that they lost”

      And how do they differ from those who have been piled up in a pile and something plaintively bleating relative to the fact that someone, somewhere and once was afraid of them?
      "The one who lives in the past has no future" (he invented it himself, just now).
    3. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA April 28 2016 11: 27
      +2
      Quote: Record Nadoev
      Yes? What about the weight of the Belleville boilers? These boilers were good only in that they could rarely be serviced. Those. an old song of idlers and lazy people "for reliability".

      He-he-he ... On "Pobeda" and "Oslyab" they managed to kill even Belleville at the very first crossing, bringing them to amazingly damaged, rusted and objectionable condition.
      Quote: Record Nadoev
      What about the drawdown (and even breakdown) of the 6 "Russian Kane's aiming system?

      Here the question is not about the guns, but about the reinforcements of the decks in the places of their installation, which were not designed for long-term firing with large UVN (the structure weakened and began to "play", adding off-design dynamic loads). Onshore installations did not have such problems.
      The design of the guns is not to blame. And not even the construction of decks. Those who are not to blame for the increase in effective fire distances are to blame - and did not bother to issue TK that provided for such fire regimes.
      1. Record Nadoev
        Record Nadoev April 28 2016 16: 50
        0
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Onshore installations there were no such problems.

        Do not confuse onshore installations with ship installations. Coastal was in charge of GAU, ship, GIMA. From this, the teeth of the ship's 6 "were chipped. From this, Peresvet was armed with defective 10" guns of the main battery. And Oslyabya, just in case, weakened to the level of Peresvet.
        In addition, I will not say exactly as a memory 6 ", but 10", the ballistics of the coastal guns did not match the ballistics of the ships.
        Those. in ascending order, there was the ballistics of the Russian Brbo, ballistics of Persvet and Oslyaby, ballistics of coastal artillery and ballistics of Victory. In addition, coastal guns were slightly different from the ship's structurally.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA April 28 2016 18: 03
          -1
          Quote: Record Nadoev
          Do not confuse onshore installations with ship installations. Coastal was in charge of GAU, ship, GIMA. From this, the teeth of the ship's 6 "were chipped.

          Hmmm ... it seems that the topic of breakdowns was exactly 6 "kane" who were sorted out at fortification and fortoved.
          As for the "delivery" of mechanisms and breakage of gears, I'm sorry, but this is an old topic that has been dealt with for a long time. The reason for these breakdowns was not a congenital defect in the gun, but the weakness of the deck reinforcements and shock vibrations arose at the time of the shot.
          In 1360, the test report of the Kane gun No. 148 at Fort Totleben was stored. A full combat charge and at a maximum elevation angle fired, and no breakdowns. The cause of these unpleasant phenomena was eliminated by reinforcing the decks of ships armed with a 6-dm Kane gun.
          1. Record Nadoev
            Record Nadoev April 28 2016 18: 40
            0
            Quote: Alexey RA
            versed in fortification and forturalist.

            Gy-gy.
            Still, the opinion of MGSH is more valuable.
            There I inserted a 6 "key phrase on the title page.
          2. The comment was deleted.
  • Aleksander
    Aleksander April 28 2016 09: 48
    +4
    And the descendants of the runaway degenerates will still whine in Paris about “Russia, which they lost.”

    The degenerate resembles the author himself, bashfully who didn’t indicate how many battleships were built by those who killed 10 million Russian citizens in a civil massacre and drove out a few more millions (mostly literate and educated people)? belay And tell him something there is nothing-because he is silent. Because NO ONE not mastered, no brains, no money, no qualifications, not enough-ALL lost and dispersed. And compare with Russia: for 5-8 years (1909-1917) she built 11 (eleven) battleships, of which 7 were commissioned, 4 were launched. "Sevastopol" and others were under construction for 5 years and not 6 years, as the author lies. But even the newly built battleships were not even able to modernize the new government (the torment with the "Poltava"). The imperial battleships served the country gloriously for many decades.
    Their shipyards are sitting without orders. Industry is degrading. Skilled personnel are not needed.

    Again, the stupid degenerative lies of the shipyard (Baltiysky, Admiralteysky, Nikolayevsky Zavod) were fully loaded and worked at full capacity (see above), and so ships were ordered abroad. One can only admire the government, the Emperor and the people of Russia (who raised money for the fleet), who were able to simultaneously invest such huge amounts of money both in their own construction and in orders abroad.
    Legendary royal quality

    Exactly that legendary-ship Of the Imperial Navy "VOLKHOV"- a catamaran built by the Russian Putilov factory has been serving for more than a hundred years!
    1. Uncle Murzik
      Uncle Murzik April 28 2016 10: 10
      0
      yes, we believe, there your friends wrote from above to the point that Russia and the Russo-Japanese War won laughing
      1. aiw
        aiw April 28 2016 11: 03
        +2
        For you, "did not lose outright" has it already won? Well, OK. Tell us how it is to live in a black and white world?
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA April 28 2016 12: 14
      +1
      Quote: Aleksander
      And compare with Russia: for 5-8 years (1909-1917) it built 11 (eleven) battleships, of which 7 were put into operation, 4 were launched.

      In your, build means launch?
      How many guns of the Civil Code had the RI industry produced for the Izmailov by 1917? No one. How many towers could be assembled? None. Needless to say, a battleship was built.
      It's better not to talk about Sevastopoli at all ... the perfect combination of armor and weapons of a battle cruiser with the speed of a battleship. No wonder they waltzed the whole war between Helsingfors and Revel, and the first and last EBR from the "Tsarevich" line had to take the rap for them.

      And yes, 11 "built" LCs did not save the Empire from transport collapse and collapse. It is better not to build a fleet and win the war than to build and lose the country and victory.
      Quote: Aleksander
      One can only admire the government, the Emperor and the people of Russia (who raised money for the fleet), who were able to simultaneously invest such huge amounts of money both in their own construction and in orders abroad.

      Especially admirable is the return of the Nikolaev treasury admiralty to a free lease with the right to redeem, and for rent to a company that did not have either the Charter or the meeting of shareholders. And an immediate order from this company of battleships - with advance payment.
      1. Aleksander
        Aleksander April 28 2016 13: 57
        0
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Do you think building means letting go?


        In my opinion, "to build" means to put into operation and go into operation - and SEVEN battleships in just 8 years met this criterion. And they fought (to one degree or another) in four wars. owls the authorities barely had the ability to exploit these ships (and that, not all) - for something more, alas, it was not enough for many more decades, until they restored what was destroyed.
        Quote: Alexey RA
        And yes, 11 "built" LCs did not save the Empire from transport collapse and collapse. It is better not to build a fleet and win the war than to build and lose the country and victory.

        Is battleships a cure for collapse ... transport? belay
        In all the warring countries it was bad, in Germany it died of hunger 778 thousand people, hungry Holland, Belgium, England. The empire was ruined by the failure to comply with its own laws to protect the state, when the Ulyanovs and others like him gained weight by chewing grouse in Shushenskoye, sipping bread in Zurich, instead of waving kayla in some camp. In other warring countries, all this was stopped immediately and in the bud, and they were right. Do you think that if in the 41 in the USSR there was a democracy like the 14 of the year, he would have resisted, the comm would have saved him. idea? lol Yeah! 41 did the right thing and tough.
        It’s better to build a fleet and win, which RI did in WWI. Lost the war Council of People's Commissars, who signed the Brest Peace, neither the Emperor, nor the Provisional Government even allowed this to happen and did not say it — both in March and October, 1917 Victory was obvious to everyone (except the criminal Bolshevik minority junta).
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA April 28 2016 15: 25
          0
          Quote: Aleksander
          In my opinion, "to build" means to put into operation and go into operation - and SEVEN battleships in just 8 years met this criterion.

          Read above:
          Quote: Aleksander
          And compare with Russia: for 5-8 years (1909-1917) it built 11 (eleven) battleships

          Quote: Aleksander
          It’s better to build a fleet and win, which RI did in WWI. The Council of People's Commissars, who signed the Brest Peace, lost the war, neither the Emperor nor the Provisional Government even allowed this to be said, and in March and October 1917 the Victory was obvious to everyone (except the criminal Bolshevik minority junta).

          Particularly well, the Provisional Government succeeded in the victorious summer offensive of 1917.
          And do not blame the collapse of the army on the Bolsheviks. The basis of the collapse was Order No. 1, the most active supporter of which was the future prime minister of the Provisional Government, and then - the Deputy Executive Committee of the Petrosoviet.

          Oh, by the way, even if the oligarchs, Duma and generals did not overthrow Nicky in February 1917, I would really like to know how to fight in a modern war, having only 1/2 steam locomotives and 1/3 of the wagons of the minimum required in the rear?

          And wouldn't it be better to spend the money spent on expensive toys of "seven pounds of the most august meat" on something more needed for a predominantly land war with Germany? For example, on the same railways, due to the lack of capacity. for example, in 1910 it was decided to destroy the Warsaw UR, which cost the treasury millions of rubles.
          1. Aleksander
            Aleksander April 28 2016 21: 53
            0
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Read above:

            Thank you for the honor, but read then COMPLETELY what was said above, is it really difficult? Everything is in Russian, everything is painted:
            for 5-8 years (1909-1917) she built 11 (eleven) battleships, of which 7 put into operation, 4 launched

            Quote: Alexey RA
            , I would very much like to know how to fight in a modern war, having in the rear all 1 / 2 locomotives and 1 / 3 wagons of the minimum required number?

            Yes, just like IS ALWAYSRussia fought and wonhaving 1 / 2 or 1 / 3 necessary, incl. and in the Second World War.
            Quote: Alexey RA
            For example, on the same railways

            So many THOUSAND kilometers a year were built, including during the Great War (one Alekseevsky purely RUSSIAN bridge 1916, which was worthThe longest railway bridge IN THE WORLD, the Soviets for 70 years have not been able to master a bridge of this magnitude), but still not enough. WHEN did you have enough? belay But they got it right! yes
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA April 29 2016 10: 51
              0
              Quote: Aleksander
              Yes, just like ALWAYS, Russia fought and won, having 1/2 or 1/3 of what was needed, including and in the Second World War.

              It was in the Second World War that the sad experience of WWI was taken into account - it was as a result of this mess and the "Vikzhel" that the NKPS became a rigidly centralized militarized structure, which in its area of ​​responsibility could even indicate to the General Staff and strategic enterprises.
              Quote: Aleksander
              And so many THOUSAND kilometers a year were built, including during the Great War (one Alekseevsky purely RUSSIAN bridge in 1916, which was worth the longest railway bridge in the WORLD, the Soviets did not manage to master a bridge of such a scale for 70 years), but still not enough.

              Pathetic many thousands of kilometers per year - of course. great.
              But the trouble is - when you take the numbers, the situation becomes not so rosy:
              From 1900 to 1904, 6 km were introduced. d., from 380 to 1905 - 1909, and in 5260-1910. - only 1913km

              That is, after the RPE, the rate of commissioning of the railway was constantly falling:
              slower, even than in any other period of the last forty years, despite the fact that the industrial development of the country, on the contrary, is now much faster

              The most important thing is that the War Department did not need abstract kilometers of roads, but concrete railways on the ZTVD, built according to strategic deployment plans. But everything was bad with them:
              The deployment of the Russian armies in 1914 was on the front: Kovno - Olita - Augustov - Lomza, Warsaw - Lublin, Kholm - Lutsk - Kremenchug. Its total length was 1030 versts.
              Nine through railway lines approached the front, but there were only slightly more than half double-track roads.

              By 1910 the situation was even worse. And while Morved built the battleships, which are extremely necessary for the land war with Germany, the Military Directorate disarmed, blew up and bombarded the forts and fortifications of Warsaw, Lomzhi, Ivangorod, etc. Because, taking into account the cash and the Russian railway network under construction, the main forces of the Germans came to the Warsaw UR earlier than the main forces of the army of the Empire.
    3. revnagan
      revnagan April 28 2016 12: 31
      -1
      Quote: Aleksander
      11 (eleven) battleships, of which 7 were surrendered

      What were they called, on which theater were used?
  • SokolfromRussia
    SokolfromRussia April 28 2016 10: 14
    +2
    Frankly, the article is written against the background of the author's hatred for the Republic of Ingushetia, as indicated by its ending, and then does not inspire much confidence. Yes, the country lagged behind Britain or Germany, but this gap did not widen. Inventions were created, the economy grew, and so on.
  • Verdun
    Verdun April 28 2016 10: 23
    +3
    Quote: AK64

    This is precisely where, by the beginning of WWI, such a school arose. But ... she was sent to the USA --- this is unnecessary to the proletarians.
    I do not want to touch on delusional statements that Russia did not lose the war with Japan. I want to be closer to the topic of the article. In particular, the engineering school being created in Russia and the one who went where. Yes, an engineering school was being created. But by no means thanks to the efforts of Russian officials, but contrary. And not all engineers left abroad after the revolution. The founder of the national school of marine engineering A.V. Speransky, Alexei N. Krylov, academician and prominent shipbuilder, E.E. Pampel, an outstanding specialist in calculating propellers, a specialist in the field of mechanical engineering and automotive engineering E.A. Chudakov, an aircraft designer A.N. Tupolev, and even my great-grandfather, who worked in the mines of the English industrialist Hughes as a chief engineer for lifting mechanisms ... All these people stayed. No one left. And this list could be continued. But in Tsarist Russia, these people had a minimal chance of realizing their talents. An example is Boris Grigoryevich Lutsky, an outstanding designer who made a career in Germany and was completely unclaimed in Russia.
    1. aiw
      aiw April 28 2016 11: 13
      +1
      > I do not want to touch on the delusional statements that Russia did not lose the war with Japan.

      I would like to note that my statement was "Russia NOT lost purely war with Japan. ”The claim that“ Russia lost purely the war with Japan "is as delusional as" Russia won the war with Japan, "and people who make such statements simply do not know history. But people who deduce one from the other are simply not on friendly terms with elementary logic.


      Well, about the creation of an engineering school, contrary to the will of Russian officials, you are not quite right. The stupidity of officials is by no means a Russian exclusive (we can recall, for example, the story of the arming of machine guns by the American army in the early 20th century).

      The chances for engineers and scientists in RI to realize their talents were about the same as everywhere else, even somewhat higher - the industry was booming and there weren’t enough staff.
      1. Verdun
        Verdun April 28 2016 11: 36
        0
        The stupidity of officials is by no means a Russian exclusive
        Here are just the forms it takes "exclusive", hypertrophied. And then, it always seemed to me that one should be equal not to dubious merits, but to real achievements.
        1. aiw
          aiw April 28 2016 11: 39
          0
          And it takes the same forms as everywhere else.

          Of course you need to equal achievements ... well, what to do, the more the office, the more the mess. You cannot argue against human nature and entropy.
          1. Verdun
            Verdun April 28 2016 12: 21
            0
            Against entropy - possible. And about human nature ... People need to be educated. And sometimes - to re-educate.
  • Dimon19661
    Dimon19661 April 28 2016 10: 32
    -1
    Article plus.
  • Verdun
    Verdun April 28 2016 10: 38
    0
    There was such a tsar in Russia - Pyotr Alekseevich Romanov. He fought against bribery. Not very successful, but I tried my best. And he built a fleet for his country. And, even with the embezzlers and the indisputable fact that the construction of ships abroad, in the same England, was cheaper, he continued to develop the shipbuilding of his country. Because, by "naivety" he believed that first of all, the industry of his state should be developed. This "stupid" emperor was proud of his country and believed that the benefit, albeit remote, from the development of the Russian economy was more important than momentary profits.
    1. Record Nadoev
      Record Nadoev April 28 2016 19: 29
      0
      Quote: Verdun
      And the fleet was building for his country

      He quickly rotted. And even partially during his lifetime. Because he built from such a forest. That is, from one Romanov to another, nothing has changed in shipbuilding.
      Quote: Verdun
      This "stupid" emperor was proud of his country

      He was mostly proud of himself. And he needed the country mainly to enhance this effect. This is so, if quick.
      1. Verdun
        Verdun April 28 2016 22: 46
        0
        He quickly rotted. And even partially during his lifetime.
        The ships of the first years of construction quickly rotted. It's right. But with the acquisition of experience and the development of the technical base, the service life of Russian ships has significantly increased. Twenty or more years for wooden ships is a pretty decent time. No less than the English.
        He was mostly proud of himself
        Forgive me, but you should not judge everyone by yourself.
        1. Record Nadoev
          Record Nadoev April 28 2016 23: 10
          0
          Quote: Verdun
          The ships of the first years of construction quickly rotted. It's right. But with the acquisition of experience and the development of the technical base, the service life of Russian ships has significantly increased.

          No no. It was the Peter ships that almost all rotted during his lifetime. With rare exceptions. Then, maybe, maybe the service life has been increased. But that was later. Too lazy to look, somewhere I had what and how much it served, right on the dates. Everything was bad there with the ships.
          Quote: Verdun
          Forgive me, but you should not judge everyone by yourself.

          For starters, do not be rude. And for the end, it’s difficult in the history of Russia to pick up a ghoul vigilant than Peter. Even the German libertine and the whiskered katso are far from him.
          1. Verdun
            Verdun April 28 2016 23: 26
            0
            It was the Peter ships that almost all rotted during his lifetime.
            I give examples.
            "Ingermanland" is a Russian 64-gun sailing battleship of the 3rd rank, launched on May 1 (12), 1715 at the shipyard of the St. Petersburg Admiralty. Peter I took part in the construction of the ship. During his service, from 1715 to 1736, the battleship was part of the Baltic Fleet.
            "Lesnoe" - the first Russian battleship of the 1st rank, launched in 1718. October 9, 1741 during a severe storm near the ship a wave broke the side. They did not begin to repair the Lesnoye, and the ship was dismantled.
            Moscow - a sailing battleship of the 3rd rank built in 1715. Withdrew from the fleet. Dismantled after 1732.
            Peter I Alekseevich, nicknamed the Great (May 30 [June 9] 1672 - January 28 [February 8] 1725)
            Hope the examples are clear? Or add more?
            1. Record Nadoev
              Record Nadoev April 28 2016 23: 41
              0
              Quote: Verdun
              Hope the examples are clear? Or add more?

              I can give you even more list of rotten ships.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  • Aleksander
    Aleksander April 28 2016 10: 40
    +1
    Russia got involved in a war in which there was no goal, objective benefit, and in which it was impossible to win.

    The goals that Germany sought in the war are very clearly expressed in the conditions of the Brest Peace, and the goals of Russia, in this regard, are incomprehensible only to degenerates, it was-defense of the Fatherland.
    All the facts indicate that the Russian Empire was trudging somewhere at the very end of the list of developed states

    Facts indicate that Russia was one of the four world LEADERS, with a sustainable highest growth rate production, which in 20 years would lead to the complete domination of Russia in Europe, for which they tried to destroy it in 1914.
    jokes about the “Ilyin bulb” and the state literacy program no longer seem so ridiculous.

    Why so? Miserable agitation always is funny. lol In Russia in the 1917 year was 150 000 schools (today 76 thousand, two times less), the best in the world (along with Germany) higher education, higher female education is the best in the world.
    Years passed and the country recovered. Completely. It will become a state with the best education in the world, with advanced science and developed industry.

    Country in which 14 млн man died of HUNGER, where millions without judgment they were killed, where at each construction site there was BAMLAG (slave camp), was really very, very sick and was cured after many decades. And if it were not for the October Revolution and the Bolshevik civil war, which destroyed the country's production, it would have reached the heights much earlier and without savage casualties.
    1. Uncle Murzik
      Uncle Murzik April 28 2016 13: 22
      -2
      All these data indicate that over the 50-year-old period of development of capitalist Russia, successes in the field of the growth of elementary literacy among the population were very insignificant. In 1913, over 60% of the country's total population over 8 years old were illiterate, and literacy among non-Russian nationalities was even lower. According to the 1911 census, only 23,8% of children aged 7-14 years old studied in rural elementary schools. Only after the Great October Socialist Revolution was this exceptional cultural backwardness of the country eliminated.

      laughing
  • Cartalon
    Cartalon April 28 2016 11: 01
    +1
    There is nothing even about cuts and kickbacks in the article, there was a technical backlog and there wasn’t any sensation in it
    1. aiw
      aiw April 28 2016 11: 26
      +1
      In general, the level of rollback to quartermasters in the Republic of Ingushetia during the WWII was 0.5 ... 1.5%.

      Compare what happened during Soviet times ... with what is now even scary to compare.
      1. Verdun
        Verdun April 28 2016 12: 28
        -1
        Compare what happened during the USSR.
        And where are those palaces built on multi-million rollbacks? Where are those luxury yachts?
  • Verdun
    Verdun April 28 2016 11: 26
    0
    There is nothing even about cuts and kickbacks in the article,
    When they want to develop the economy of their country, they acquire not finished products, and not even equipment for their production. Spend money on patents and technology. They allow them to develop their own industry. Immediate benefits always turn into significant losses for the economy. And it is obvious that those who do not observe this simple rule are either far-sighted people or criminals who receive bribes and spit on the needs of their own state.
    1. aiw
      aiw April 28 2016 11: 33
      +1
      Ideally, yes, but reality is much more complicated.

      Yes, you’re just an expert, I’ll look like that! And please tell me, Comrade Expert, how are the ship’s main mechanisms different from the ship’s? Well, the article about the fleet is mainly ... or are you only good at diapers production?
      1. Verdun
        Verdun April 28 2016 11: 47
        0
        They differ at least in that the ship is a military thing, and the ship is completely civilian. I myself, excuse me, have no direct relation to shipbuilding, it just so happened, but the Pope of Leningrad Shipbuilding was finishing up and explained something to me, stupid. I can distinguish fissile from beams ...
        1. aiw
          aiw April 28 2016 12: 00
          0
          well, OK hi

          Then it’s not very clear, since you have a dad in the subject, what do you sometimes write about this ...

          Krylova A.N. Have you read "My Memories" for sure? Nobody says that in RI (and then, I'm not talking about now) everything was fine. But all these attacks "pissed away / stole-all-polymers" remind me of Krylov's butting with the Duma committee. On the one hand, militant laymen whose heart aches for the state. on the other hand, a qualified specialist who, instead of working, not only has to fight with officials (those same profane and imprisoned), so still these profane ones calm down ...
          1. Verdun
            Verdun April 28 2016 12: 12
            0
            I’ll try to explain. I myself, now in the past, are an automobile designer. And I’ll take an example from there. Many people like to present the fact of the construction of a VAZ plant in the USSR as the greatest achievement, a breakthrough. And with this I strongly disagree. How much money did you need to spend in order to erect, in fact, a new city in the steppe, relocate people there, bring energy and traffic flows? And all in order to get, as a result, not modern technologies, but a straight line, like a gut, a production line for the production of a good, but already outdated machine. A line that does not allow the slightest significant modernization of products. The money spent was taken away from already developing, existing plants, such as GAZ, ZIL, AZLK ... As a result, many developments of these enterprises did not reach the assembly line and the domestic automotive industry was thrown back. The same is with shipbuilding. The immediate gain in the purchase of ships and mechanisms abroad turned into losses for their own shipbuilding. Now, if this money was spent on the purchase of equipment, patents and technologies - I would not mind.
            1. aiw
              aiw April 28 2016 12: 16
              +2
              You contradict yourself. You say that you need to buy patents, technologies, equipment, build factories - then buying patents, technologies and equipment + building a plant is a huge step back ...
              1. Verdun
                Verdun April 28 2016 12: 49
                -1
                You contradict yourself
                The purchase of technologies, patents and the construction of their own factories on their basis is fundamentally different from the acquisition of finished production and, moreover, finished products. Since the acquisition of a finished production does not always imply the sale of patents and technologies along with it. So, there are no contradictions. And if you have an idea of ​​what industry and engineering development are, it is extremely surprising that you have to explain such basic truths. Henry Ford (senior) not only built an automobile plant (GAZ) for the USSR, but also sold us modern technologies. Having nationalized the Junkers concession in Fili, we also grabbed a fair amount of technology. This is an alternative approach. Alas, many modern officials also obviously believe that by purchasing a finished product - say, the notorious Mistrals - we get access to technology. Damn it with two!
            2. yehat
              yehat April 28 2016 12: 47
              +2
              the relationship between harm and benefit of a WHA decision is highly controversial.
              I am sure of one thing - it was very balanced and economically justified.
              as for the money taken away, this is fiction. The factories were supplied according to the state plan, and not according to their internal budget, and they never had "their own" funds. What resources the State Planning Commission had, why they were not given to the factories is an open question.
              I think the reasoning that there was a hard limit and he all went to the VAZ is false.
              But the truth was that a Muscovite from 68 years to 88 years from 412 models almost did not go anywhere in 20 years. Innovation and innovation at least. Why invest it actively?
              1. Verdun
                Verdun April 28 2016 12: 59
                -1
                But the truth was that a Muscovite from 68 years to 88 years from 412 models almost did not go anywhere in 20 years.
                So that's why he didn’t leave. If you took the trouble to familiarize yourself with the development of the AZLK for that period, you would not have asked such questions. I, unfortunately, do not know if the AZLK museum is operating now, but before you could see everything there. Precisely because all the funds were given to VAZ, these machines never got on the conveyor. Moreover, even the GAZ-24 is just a pale shadow of what the Gorky plant could put into production at that time. There were plans to expand and increase output ...
                1. yehat
                  yehat April 28 2016 13: 31
                  +2
                  Actually, I meant a qualitative leap in the filling!
                  engine design, layout, NORMAL door locks and more
                  Or say that VAZ prevented you from creating and running your automatic transmission?
                  Yes, VAZ-u got something tasty - for example, thin steel for the hull,
                  but to say that he took everything, it’s just a lie.
                  1. Verdun
                    Verdun April 28 2016 14: 32
                    0
                    Domestic designers created and tested the automatic transmission in the ZIM. A small batch of GAZ-21E with automatic transmission was released. AZLK was developing a normal engine, which they could bring to mind only 25 years later, precisely because of the lack of funding and modern technologies. They began to build a workshop, bought equipment, but here - such a misfortune - the USSR fell apart. When Japan developed its auto industry, it focused on the acquisition of new technologies. The Japanese did not purchase finished goods. What did they do, I think it’s not worth explaining?
                    1. yehat
                      yehat April 28 2016 14: 52
                      +1
                      I think it’s not worth it. Toyota Camry Japanese perfected for more than 25 years. not created a new one, but improved it step by step! Every detail from insulation to ignition and boxes. And you're all about the new, about the jerks to the stars. Go down to the ground. It was necessary to work, and not rest on our laurels.
                      1. Verdun
                        Verdun April 28 2016 15: 04
                        -1
                        No one hugs the immense. Kozma Rods
                        An engineer, if he is really an engineer, and not a jabbering bullshit, cannot rest on his laurels. He must constantly improve and create something new. Otherwise, he will simply degrade and lose his qualifications. But the problem is that the implementation of any design idea in life rests on the technological capabilities of production. Modern patent law does not allow you to simply take and use technology already developed by someone. You have to buy it. And such technologies are often much more expensive than entire factories and ships. The engineer is not able to pay for their purchase out of pocket. What does “rest on our laurels” have to do with it?
                        Camry Japanese perfected for more than 25 years. not created a new one, but improved it step by step!
                        Any cars are created exclusively in the process of evolution. A revolution is no longer a car, but something else.
                      2. yehat
                        yehat April 28 2016 15: 44
                        +1
                        yes what new ??? turn the engine, bring the gearbox to mind, put in normal noise isolation, listen to motorists and add a number of little things like a pallet under the engine - is this new ??? Or is it new to formulate TK for high-quality finishing plastics? or galvanized body - new?
                        Is filter refinement and injection also new?
                        Or maybe the power window is new ??? do not hang noodles!
                        The integrated dashboard also did not have to be invented, but simply done.
                      3. Verdun
                        Verdun April 28 2016 15: 52
                        -1
                        It is difficult to explain something to a person who does not understand the discussed topic poorly. It just so happened that the domestic automotive industry is the very case when "every gopher in the field is an agronomist." I remember that MS Gorbachev once said, "We will become the legislators of automobile fashion." As a result, the creation of cars was entrusted to home-builders. There was such a phenomenon - "Okhta" was called. Maybe in the know? Precisely because the decisions on the further development of our automotive industry were made by people with such a level of knowledge and views, it rested Bose. Before these giants of thought - here I have to agree - the ministers of Nicholas II were still far away.
                      4. Verdun
                        Verdun April 28 2016 16: 08
                        -1
                        Yes, VAZ-u got something tasty - for example, thin steel for the hull,
                        And yet, just to keep you informed. The USSR acquired all sheet steel for the manufacture of automobile bodies abroad. England, Germany, Belgium ... Domestic rental for this business was not suitable. When, at the direction of Gorbachev, a batch of Volgas was produced at GAZ from a domestic sheet, the roofs of the already assembled cars burst right at the plant's settling site. And this is primarily the problem of lack of technology.
                      5. Cat man null
                        Cat man null April 28 2016 16: 17
                        +1
                        Quote: Verdun
                        Gorbachev at GAZ, a batch of "Volga" was released from a domestic sheet, the roofs of already assembled cars burst

                        - Do you have a link, by any chance? Searched - did not find, although I seem to know how to search .. repeat
                        - interest is not idle, a metal specialist (somewhere) by his first education .. I’m sitting here, I’m racking my brains - and it would be a sfig .. it burst .. belay
                      6. Verdun
                        Verdun April 28 2016 16: 42
                        0
                        I won’t give a link. What to do, the Internet is great, but not omniscient! But he personally witnessed this experiment. At that time, I worked in US. A stamped sheet bursts for one simple reason. Insufficient ductility, resulting in microscopic cracks and internal residual stresses in the stamped part. For the manufacture of car bodies in the days of the USSR, a sheet of SVG-0,8 KP GOST 1050-74 was used. Alas, the domestic industry produced miserable materials of the required quality. When in the late nineties for the needs of the enterprise where I worked, such metal was required, most of the companies I contacted did not understand what it was about. In the whole of Moscow and the region I found only in one place in the amount of 1,5 tons.
                    2. yehat
                      yehat April 29 2016 14: 19
                      0
                      not all. we are only talking about thin rental, which made it possible to reduce the cost and lighten the car, to make low-power engines more relevant.
                      victory was made ... well, almost out of armor laughing and she weighed accordingly.
  • Aleksander
    Aleksander April 28 2016 14: 02
    +1
    Quote: Verdun
    the ship is a military thing, and vessel - quite a civil


    As for the civilian thing, the VESSEL is you not in the eyebrow, but in ....
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk April 28 2016 11: 35
    +4
    A lot of juggling.
    I really liked this
    The fire control system was French, mod. 1899. A set of instruments was first presented at an exhibition in Paris and was immediately acquired for the RIF by its commander, Grand Duke Alexei Alexandrovich

    We go here http://wunderwafe.ru/WeaponBook/Borodino/17.htm read
    To control the artillery fire, it was already fully worked out by that time (a set of domestic devices was demonstrated at the Paris Exhibition in 1899) a system of special electromechanical devices of the St. Petersburg plant of N. K. Geisler, which was stably (even in Soviet times) and consistently improved modifications that were produced for the ships of the entire Russian fleet. The system consisted of cable (47 cores) networks with a voltage of 23V (with a step-down transformer) connecting all artillery combat posts (towers, casemates

    Those. indeed, appliances from the French exhibition. Only of our development laughing
    Or, for example, Belleville boilers. Reproaching Russia for using these boilers is the same as reproaching England for using Popov's radio or diesels (invented by a German engineer Diesel). Belleville created a new principle of operation of the boiler, but then other countries, guided by this principle, created these very boilers of any size and power to fit their needs.
    But this is generally a masterpiece
    The Borodino project itself was a modified project of the battleship Tsesarevich, designed and built for the Russian Imperial fleet by specialists from the French shipyard Forge and Chantier.

    In fact, it was like this - ours puzzled over what to be the next Russian battleships. MTK proposed to develop the Peresvet type, the Baotian plant proposed a project for such an EBR with 305-mm cannons. But then the Grand Duke Avelan intervened, he passed the project of Lagan (Tsarevich) and the General Admiral signed it.
    But what's next? To wait for the plans of the Tsesarevich for another two years, and this is unacceptable. We read Melnikov:
    The conclusion based on the results of the discussion was obvious: to cover the next grand princely frivolity and reduce the risk of failure of the shipbuilding program, projects based on the idea of ​​Lagan will have to be developed independently... So, we decided to start "the immediate and simultaneous development of detailed and detailed drawings of the battleship at the Baltic Shipyard and in the St. Petersburg port for the construction of the first battleships, adhering to the idea of ​​the conceptual design of Lagan."

    Those. ours designed battleships "a la Tsesarevich" actually independently
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk April 28 2016 11: 38
      +3
      It would also be interesting to ask the author why he listed all the Russian ships built abroad up to and including the First World War. And why was he "too lazy" to indicate the ships built in Russia? Indeed, out of 25 squadron battleships built in Dotsushima, for example, 23 were built at Russian shipyards.
      But, which is especially disappointing, ships at domestic shipyards were built at times slower. Four years for EDB Borodino versus two and a half years for Retvisan

      It's a shame, of course, who can argue. But much more offensive to the French: “Jorigiberry” - more than 6 years old, Charlemagne and Saint Louis, Bouvet - 5,5 each. Republik and Democrat - an average of five years.
      1. Uncle Murzik
        Uncle Murzik April 28 2016 12: 19
        -2
        and how many domestic steam engines were used? smile
      2. Record Nadoev
        Record Nadoev April 28 2016 19: 55
        0
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Indeed, out of 25 squadron battleships of the pre-Yushushima construction, for example, 23 were built at Russian shipyards.

        That’s the trouble. As a result, the REEF RIF was approached with only 4 EDBs of various degrees of suitability. And to Tsushima they were no longer at all.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk April 29 2016 07: 54
          +1
          Quote: Record Nadoev
          As a result, the REEF RIF was approached with only 4 EDBs of various degrees of suitability.

          No, I didn’t. Only submarine gunners destroyers of the coastal defense of the second rank in the amount of 7,88 pieces.
          "Retvizan", "Tsesarevich", "Petropavlovsk", "Sevastopol", "Poltava" at the Pacific Fleet, "Three Saints" at the Black Sea Fleet - already six.
          Let's lament over France - it had at least four similar battleships - one Sufferin and three types of Charlemagne You can, of course, remember the freaks like Charles Martel, then the number of French EBRs increases to 9, but in this case to ours we should add the Sisoy and Navarin in the Baltic, and (if the Charles Martel is a squadron battleship), then ours can safely record the trio of Peresvetov in the squadron.
          Quote: Record Nadoev
          And to Tsushima they were no longer at all.

          Not tired?
          1. Record Nadoev
            Record Nadoev April 29 2016 09: 14
            -1
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            "Petropavlovsk", "Sevastopol", "Poltava", at the Pacific Fleet, "Three Saints" at the Black Sea Fleet - already six.

            It is useless to talk with you if Petropavlovsk (173 mm reduced group in GP for overhead lines) and Sevastopol (194 mm reduced group in GP for overhead lines) you call the EDB.
            For reference, the Japanese "defenders" Yakumo and Azuma, ships that were not at all a squadron battle, had 215 mm of the given group on the GP on the overhead line. And even the Italian cheapies Nissin and Kasuga had 183 mm of the given group there.
            As for the Saints, the Black Sea Fleet ships are stupid to consider, they were locked in their puddle and could not have any influence.
            So poorly counted, only three turns out. Two of which are imported.
            At the same time, do not forget about imported cars and imported armor (except for the armor of Petropavlovsk) of "Russian battleships".
            If you can’t find the fourth one, then I’ll tell you, this is Victory. The only fully domestic EBR RIF, the old class 2 EBR. This was the "ceiling of the technological level" of the shipbuilding industry of the Republic of Ingushetia in those years. Not too tall, but not very short either.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk April 29 2016 11: 53
              0
              Quote: Record Nadoev
              It is useless to talk with you

              Yes to you. Isn’t you tired of talking for several years? :)
              Quote: Record Nadoev
              if Petropavlovsk (173 mm reduced krupp on GP on VL) and Sevastopol (194 mm reduced krupp on GP on VL) you call the EDB.

              Yes, I call. And the whole world calls. One you, an incomprehensible genius, with your personal armored ship rating system against.
              And for other readers, I note that the squadron battleship is not determined by the thickness of the armor in the overhead line, but by the combination of combat qualities, and this combination does not gravitate to some ideal option, but represents a very vast range of values.
              The point is that a "squadron battleship" in the understanding of any country creating a fleet is a ship for conquering naval supremacy in a squadron battle in which it must defeat similar enemy ships. And each country determined for itself what kind of performance characteristics its EBR should have in order to win a squadron battle. That is why the same Italy was building "Regina Margherita" - high-speed 20-node ships with only 2-mm main guns and with only 305-mm armor belt. But she numbered these ships as squadron battleships, and nothing else.
              Therefore, you do not need to reinvent the wheel, inventing classifications far-fetched. It is enough to simply note the advantages and disadvantages of various representatives of the EDB.
              Well, attempts to equate ship classes with VL armor will lead to such absurdisms as
              Quote: Record Nadoev
              if you call Petropavlovsk (173 mm of the reduced group on the main line along the overhead line) and Sevastopol (194 mm of the reduced group on the main line along the overhead line) EBR. was 215 mm of the given group.

              The Azuma scheme is not at hand, I doubt that there was 215 mm, but let's say. However, it should be understood that in a one-on-one battle against the same Petropavlovsk, subject to equal training of the commandants and equal quality of shells, Yakumo does not have a single chance - because his armor is not able to withstand the 305-mm shells of our EDB (except in it’s extremely narrow limits), while the 203 mm Yakumo cannot inflict decisive damage to Petropavlovsk at any distance.
              1. Record Nadoev
                Record Nadoev April 29 2016 12: 29
                0
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Isn’t you tired of talking for several years?

                I’ve been on the site for just a couple of days. You confuse me with someone. Probably with a certain abacus. Here someone called me so recently. If you're interested, climb, see who. I did not remember.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                And the whole world calls. One you, an incomprehensible genius, with your personal armored ship rating system against.

                Those. you have nothing to argue against very specific figures. And you decided to call upon the mythical "whole world" to help you. Cleverly, you will not say anything.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                I note that the squadron battleship is not determined by the thickness of the armor in the overhead line, but by the combination of combat qualities, and this combination does not gravitate to some ideal option, but represents a very vast range of values.

                Actually, this very "set" includes only 5 main criteria (guess which ones?). And booking GP on overhead lines is one of them. In general, specifically, Petropavlovsk categorically did not pass according to 2 criteria. And according to 2 more criteria, he was demoted to the category of "old EBR". And according to only one criterion, it was a real EBR. A ship with such performance characteristics cannot be called a squadron battleship. Even the old ones. The old EBR1 from this series was only Poltava.
                Learn the materiel, Andrew. You will learn a lot of interesting things for yourself.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                in which he must defeat similar enemy ships. And each country for itself determined exactly which performance characteristics should have its EDB to win

                Doesn't your cognitive dissonance split your head? You write that it is necessary to defeat the enemy, and right there that "each country decides for itself." Those. what the enemy is building there no longer matters? Then, for a linear battle, it is convenient to build motorboats with maximum speed, cheap and cheerful.
                This conclusion suggests itself, because you are writing nonsense. And the level of the EBR was determined not by the wishes of the country, but by the world level of development of naval technology. At any given time. Any individual country could either follow this level (no matter how, even buying imported ships, as Japan did), or "determine its level of performance characteristics of its EBR to win."
                Which approach was right, we clearly see the Russo-Japanese War.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                However, it should be understood that in a one-on-one battle against the same Petropavlovsk, subject to equal training of the commandants and equal quality of shells, Yakumo has no chance

                Those. You don’t even understand what I wrote to you. And pyzhitsya pretend to be a connoisseur. For people like you, I’ll continue: the old one from the birth of EBR2 Victory at the GP on the OHL had 224 mm reduced krupp, the old from the birth of EBR1 Poltava 254 mm reduced krupp, the modern EDB1 Retvizan 274 mm reduced krupp.
                And then, he decided to play off Yakumo with Petropavlovsk in battle and find out who is cooler. Funny man.
                Of course, in addition to the reservation level of GPs for overhead lines, we do not forget about 4 other main performance characteristics.
              2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk April 29 2016 15: 00
                0
                The record of milk yield ran away from me to the black list laughing
                And why am I not surprised? :)
                1. Record Nadoev
                  Record Nadoev April 29 2016 15: 51
                  0
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  The record of milk yield ran away from me to the black list

                  He didn’t run away, but sent you there. Because you are poorly educated. For each of my comments in your address you click the minus sign. I do not like it.
      3. The comment was deleted.
  • kirgudu
    kirgudu April 28 2016 12: 13
    +1
    SchA fans will crunch the French bun.
    1. Oleg Monarchist
      Oleg Monarchist April 28 2016 19: 13
      0
      Thy rolls Ilyich crunched in Switzerland, and then in the carriage, while he was not transported to Russia.
      1. kirgudu
        kirgudu April 29 2016 09: 52
        -2
        Tell a tale about seven kids in your circle of lovers of buns. And we somehow will live without this nonsense.
  • yehat
    yehat April 28 2016 12: 19
    -1
    The article posed a plus for the competently posed question, so to speak, but the judgments on the ships are simply miserable.
    firstly, according to the Ishmaels, the empire, in principle, pulled the construction. There were only 2 large shoals - there was very little capacity for the quick production of guns and with the design of the side armor a complete crap came out, which was revealed too late in the tests and therefore reworked the ships.
    secondly, the quality of Izmailov. They had 12 (!) Guns with very good placement. The 14 "guns themselves were the best in the world not only in 15, but the Americans made slightly modified 14,15" guns for their battleships on the basis of them even 20 years later !!! The 15 "Tirpitz guns had a similar design. The Japanese 15" guns were worse.
    thirdly, Ishmaels were created for operations in the shallow Baltic. A similar ship (series of 2) was made by the British - Nelson, and it was very difficult for them even after the WWII.
    fourthly, why Izmail was not completed: in the year 14 after the outbreak of war with Germany, the construction was frozen. At that time, 1 ship was at least 76% ready, 2 other 50–40% and 1 was no more than 25%. In a year, at least 1 Ishmael would be close to ready. For all 4 ships, the empire paid 100% for the construction.
    Therefore, the statement that the ships were not "pulled" is false
  • yehat
    yehat April 28 2016 12: 33
    +1
    another feature was the organization of logistics in the construction of battleships after the Russo-Japanese War. The government learned the lessons from long-term construction and seriously took care of organizing the fast and efficient movement of parts between plants. Delays still took place (sometimes 1 piece was moved between neighboring plants for more than a month), but in general, the situation was much better than when building armadillos.
  • yehat
    yehat April 28 2016 12: 40
    +2
    there were cuts, but they concerned not so much construction as supply, an increase in prices for materials,
    tightening of work. This was because the estimates were huge and therefore carefully controlled by the government, as due to lack of funds, 2 less significant shipbuilding programs had to be frozen.
  • Basil50
    Basil50 April 28 2016 12: 52
    +2
    Dismantling the performance characteristics of ships makes it possible to understand how * incarnation * of state programs took place in tsarist RUSSIA, and the bitterness of omissions only grows. In RUSSIA, almost all * members of the Romanov family * were stolen, even the tsar himself kept a personal * savings bottle * abroad. The GOLDEN STOCK in the Civil War * was torn apart * * by the saviors of RUSSIA *, and the tsarist * treasury * was safely appropriated by nimble custodians at the place of storage, abroad. Today, the newfound * elite *, the implementation of state programs without * abroad will help us *, they don’t think, they keep * savings * abroad and they require * immunity * from any responsibility. Just like members of the royal family.
    1. yehat
      yehat April 28 2016 13: 36
      0
      a small pill abroad was needed for frequent trips of members of the royal family and their guarantors.
      In fact, just to ensure unavoidable costs.
      The tsar himself, without any reservations, was a patriot in the sense that he understood this and had never planned to run anywhere.
      As for stealing ... why? Many of them were simply assigned more than decent maintenance, in order to be rich, they had enough of their origin and did not need to move. The pursuit of luxury took place, but not en masse - this is a historical fact. Much more they were interested in just an interesting stay "in society".
      1. Basil50
        Basil50 April 28 2016 15: 08
        0
        There are many miracles in the world, and one of them is * the ability * to never believe that * the king is naked *, faith in the nobility of nobles, or something else from fairy tales about * the purity of thoughts * of an outright thief, and these were all Romanovs. In Tsarist RUSSIA, investigations into the Grand Duke’s pack were prohibited by law.
        The dream of modern * oligarchs *, inherited * rights * and impunity.
        The whole tsar’s * egg-pot * was kept in foreign banks and * trusts *, which is precisely why the entire tsar’s family was destroyed. Today traces of these riches come up, and the amounts are sometimes fantastic, here * beneficiaries * of treasures and produce fakes, and why not lie if such values ​​are at stake and there are those who believe in * legality * of such savings and honesty * confidential storage * of royal * egg capsules * .
      2. The comment was deleted.
  • Leto
    Leto April 28 2016 12: 54
    -1
    After this, the jokes about the “Ilyin bulb” and the state literacy program no longer seem so ridiculous.

    Again, this does not mean that everything was bad with education in RI. It's just that the author did not understand that RI was "at the start", proof of this is such bright names as:
    Lodygin Alexander Nikolaevich - a light bulb with a refractory filament
    Zvorykin Vladimir Kozmich - TV
    Ponyatov Alexander Matveevich - VCR
    Sikorsky Igor Ivanovich - helicopter
    These are those who left (and this is not a complete list), and those who stayed and created what the author is probably very proud of were educated in educational institutions of the Republic of Ingushetia. And who trained personnel for industry and science? Immigrants from imperial schools and universities, not German teachers were engaged in this.
    Due to understandable events, one can only assume that it would be, but the successes of those who received education in the Republic of Ingushetia give reason to assert that there would be no less achievements.
    1. Uncle Murzik
      Uncle Murzik April 28 2016 13: 24
      0
      All these data indicate that over the 50-year-old period of development of capitalist Russia, successes in the field of the growth of elementary literacy among the population were very insignificant. In 1913, over 60% of the country's total population over 8 years old were illiterate, and literacy among non-Russian nationalities was even lower. According to the 1911 census, only 23,8% of children aged 7-14 years old studied in rural elementary schools. Only after the Great October Socialist Revolution was this exceptional cultural backwardness of the country eliminated.
      1. Leto
        Leto April 28 2016 13: 54
        -1
        Quote: Uncle Murzik
        Only after the Great October Socialist Revolution was this exceptional cultural backwardness of the country eliminated.

        You want to say that if there hadn’t been an October coup, the literacy situation would not have changed one iota and today only 30% of the Russian population could read and write?
        And what do you know about reform plans with the introduction of universal education gradually by 1920. throughout RI?
        1. Uncle Murzik
          Uncle Murzik April 28 2016 14: 07
          -1
          and how much in the USSR did illiteracy cope? well, if for so many years tsarist Russia could not, I have the right to doubt
      2. Record Nadoev
        Record Nadoev April 29 2016 11: 52
        +1
        Quote: Uncle Murzik
        Only after the Great October Socialist Revolution

        You have trouble with knowledge of the history of the Fatherland. The Bolshevik coup in Russia occurred in early January 1918. And in October 1917. nothing particularly significant has happened in Russia. True, there was a small armed skirmish between the opposing factions in Petrograd (a great name for a city on the Neva). But nothing more.
      3. The comment was deleted.
  • dkflbvbh
    dkflbvbh April 28 2016 13: 31
    -3
    + to the author ... Good article.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • trantor
    trantor April 28 2016 14: 03
    0
    Stealing from profit, not loss. But this is not customary with us. We did it differently .... A widespread lack of production experience, machine tools and competent specialists. Multiplied by incompetence, nepotism, kickbacks and a mess in the offices of the Admiralty.

    Well, everything is as it is now ...
    Years passed and the country recovered. Completely. It will become a state with the best education in the world, with advanced science and a developed industry that can do everything.

    ... and which we have lost.

    Are we doomed to repeat history?
    1. yehat
      yehat April 28 2016 14: 27
      +1
      while those who make decisions remain ignoramuses and do not know history, we will always step on the rake. Shock therapy of perestroika ... 1918, Weimar Republic, well, what was it worth 5 minutes to study in school, so as not to repeat ???
  • kapitan281271
    kapitan281271 April 28 2016 17: 00
    +1
    Radio, the world's first passenger aircraft, electric welding, Yuryev’s swashplate and so on and so forth, and Russia is still more a continental power than a sea power and the practice of ordering military ships abroad is normal for that time.
    PS remind why Varshavyanka is called that. And why does the Nobel Committee read out its decisions in three languages, one of which is RUSSIAN
  • Cartalon
    Cartalon April 28 2016 17: 19
    +2
    The RI of the beginning of the 20th century was not a paradise on earth, there was a technical lag, the personnel policy of the authorities was terrible, the attitude of society to the authorities was even worse, but one must not forget RI lived in an eternal financial crisis in the 18-19 centuries, by and large money only the armed forces were enough, at the end of the 19th century the country got out of the eternal budget deficit and funds for development began to appear, industrialization would have been carried out and the Republic of Ingushetia only without robbing the whole country.
    1. yehat
      yehat April 28 2016 17: 35
      -2
      the country got out of the budget deficit due to avoiding subsistence farming.
      but it was not cheap - huge crowds of ruined landless peasants,
      a temporary drop in production in agriculture, and in some places hunger.
      Only since the second wave of Stolypin’s innovations did a positive shift begin,
      which became the basis of economic growth.
      In theory, it was necessary to develop, in fact, the economic revolution, actively involving the landless industry, but ... this did not happen. At first, the empire was exhausted by land reform, then the Russo-Japanese war and tense restoration, various kinds of reeling in society, and when the moment came again, convenient for a step forward, the WWII began.
      As a result, society in the Republic of Ingushetia simply did not have a single opportunity to calmly carry out the notorious industrialization. Add to this the king’s total indifference to what is happening, the only potential source of tightening the rules and concentration of efforts.
      The Germans had almost 20 years to industrialize. The British had even more + possession of trade and inexhaustible investments at the expense of India. And RI had snatches of 3-5 years on the same. And many say - tsarism is to blame. There are also prerequisites, not everything determines the state structure or personal will.
      What would the USSR be like if it had not been destroyed by Germany during the Second World War?
      1. yehat
        yehat April 29 2016 14: 23
        -1
        I also add that the empire invested colossal funds in the colonization and strengthening of the Far East.
  • fa2998
    fa2998 April 28 2016 20: 19
    +1
    “Years have passed, and the country has been cured. Completely!” And where do we live now, in Russia or in Guatemala? Or modern cuts and bribes and waste are the legacy of the damned tsarist regime? Well, it's good who to blame! laughing am hi
    1. Uncle Murzik
      Uncle Murzik April 29 2016 09: 03
      -1
      there are no cuts and bribes in the cured west? one is happy with the rating, out of five people four are smart!
  • Comrade
    Comrade April 30 2016 03: 24
    0
    Sevastopol ”was built for six years and by the time the St. Andrew flag was hoisted, it was completely outdated. The Empress Maria turned out to be no better. Look at their peers. Who at the same time went into operation in the 1915 year? The case is not 15-inch “Queen Elizabeth”? And after that, say that the author is biased.

    Let's take a look together. "Sevastopol" entered service on November 17, 1914, and the German "Kronprinz" - on November 8, 1914. The Russian dreadnought had 12 305 mm guns, and the German one had 10 305 mm guns. You can also add French "Paris" or Spanish "España", where "peers" have the same caliber, 305 mm.
    Request to the author. For clarity, please provide a couple of examples of "cutting" and "rolling back".