Military Review

Engineer for C grade

148
Young professionals know little, think narrowly and fear secrecy


The problem of training young specialists for Russian defense enterprises and research organizations involved in the development and production of radio-electronic equipment was very serious several years ago. The situation is often referred to as a systemic crisis.

“Military-Industrial Courier” interviewed employees of several research organizations and enterprises familiar with the situation to see if they managed to get out of the peak and what qualities, knowledge, skills, and skills are not enough for newly arrived specialists.

For a specific task


Currently, the problem of training is solved quite simply. Organizations create so-called specialized departments in institutes and universities, not only compensating for the costs of student education, but also by paying personal scholarships.

In principle, such a system is not some kind of know-how. Specialized departments in universities existed in the Soviet Union, and often they were headed by the heads of organizations and enterprises who ordered the training of young specialists, and leading developers and chief product designers were involved in giving lectures, special courses and seminars. True, as noted by all interlocutors of the Military-Industrial Courier, graduates of specialized departments accounted for a very modest percentage of those who annually came to research institutes and for the production of fresh personnel. Mostly young specialists were graduates of regular departments, where they were trained according to standard programs. Thanks to a well-established learning process, in five years at an institute or university, students, even without a substantive focus, received an excellent idea of ​​what was happening in the industry and it was not difficult for them to get to work when distributed to a research organization or a factory.

Now, the respondents admit, there is no mass education and its absence has to be compensated by the creation of specialized courses in universities. If the customer has money, specialized departments can be opened at once in several institutions of higher education.

On the one hand, such an approach guarantees organizations and enterprises an influx of young professionals who are ready to immediately get involved in the work. On the other hand, as noted by almost all the interlocutors of the "MIC", - the majority of students come to specialized departments with one goal - saving money, getting a good education.

“It's like in my time with military universities. A cadet was fed for five years, provided with a form, he received a monetary allowance, and most importantly, he did not pay for accommodation. Disaccustomed, served even Pyaterik under the contract, resigned and went "to the citizen." We actually have the same situation in the organization. He graduated from the department, while he studied - he received a scholarship, he lived at our expense. He came, worked for some time, got experience and quit, ”the department manager of one of the enterprises engaged in the production of EW funds shared with“ Military Industrial Courier ”.

Engineer for C gradeAccording to another interlocutor who is responsible for preparing students at the profile department, “strong troechniki” go there, who, according to the results of the USE, find it difficult to compete for budget places, and there is not enough money for paid education.

A few years after graduation from college, a significant percentage of young professionals leave organizations and enterprises that have paid for their training. And not always the "fugitives" pursue purely materialistic goals. Many are not satisfied with the hard regime restrictions, in other words, secrecy. In particular, one of the most serious reasons is the inability to travel abroad and publish research papers in foreign publications.

It should be noted that in many defense research institutes and at enterprises, young employees without work experience are offered a good salary and various social benefits. But the majority of those who have left agree to lose money and security for the sake of greater personal freedom and less control.

What do they lack?


As all interlocutors of the military-industrial complex recognize, graduates of specialized departments often lack applied scientific knowledge, in particular in physics, mathematics, and engineering specialties. In order to develop a modern electronic warfare complex, it is necessary not only to create the system’s stuffing itself, but also to prescribe the most complicated algorithms, calculate the product design, combine different components and assemblies, lifting mechanisms, and in the case of aviation and missile systems for electronic warfare also attach the complex to the carrier.

According to the interlocutors of "MIC", only a few Russian universities graduate good mathematicians. This is primarily Moscow State University. And of course, there is not enough young mathematicians for all research organizations and enterprises of the defense industry complex.

Almost all of those surveyed by the “Military-Industrial Courier” came to the conclusion: the systemic crisis in the training of young personnel has been overcome, but so far the influx of specialists does not ensure the full development of enterprises and research organizations. The only way out is to return to the proven Soviet experience: to prepare in higher education institutions not according to a special, but according to a general program, but at the same time give a broad idea of ​​what is happening in the industry. This is the only way to achieve a compromise between training in a profile and obtaining system knowledge in the field of applied sciences.
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  1. oleg-gr
    oleg-gr April 27 2016 21: 31
    +31
    Young professionals evaluate themselves differently. Graduates of prestigious Moscow universities with great ambition and want everything at once. On the periphery, everything is much simpler. Soviet higher education was much better than now.
    1. Inok10
      Inok10 April 27 2016 21: 39
      +8
      Quote: oleg-gr
      Soviet higher education was much better than now.

      ... in the USSR there was systemic education and higher school was the peak ... anyone could stop at the level at which he considered his abilities exhausted ... vocational school-technical school-university ...
      Almost all those surveyed by the Military Industrial Courier came to the conclusion that the systemic crisis in the training of young personnel has been overcome, but so far the influx of specialists does not fully ensure the development of enterprises and research organizations.
      ... Moscow was not built in a day ... hi
      1. sufix
        sufix April 27 2016 23: 01
        +24
        The fact that people are fleeing from there is simply a sign of a mismatch between qualifications and encouragement. Many, of course, will immediately begin to put pressure on patriotism, they say you should be at home. My ex-boss also chided me like that. But without a twinge of conscience he skimmed cream from projects and rode himself on a bourgeois Lexus, and his graduate students sat on a lean soup.
        My arguments are certainly mercantile, but this is life. No one will sell their knowledge and experience at half price and even with the restriction of civil liberties. And you can’t go far on bare patriotism.
        1. Inok10
          Inok10 April 27 2016 23: 57
          +14
          Quote: sufix
          The fact that people are fleeing from there is simply a sign of a mismatch between qualifications and encouragement.

          ... Are you sure you read the article ?! ... what qualifications are we talking about ?! ... these are young specialists ... in general, who consider themselves to be already established specialists ... 35-40% of percent is, as they used to call it "tumbleweed", nowadays the truth is more harmonious "mobile personality" ... the essence of which is the funny thing is, not even in the amount of salary ... but in how not to work, just not to work ... there are enough examples before my eyes ... Kaliningrad is a small city ... hi
          Quote: sufix
          But without a twinge of conscience, he skimmed off projects and rode himself on a bourgeois Lexus, and his graduate students sat on a lean soup.

          ... this ma'am has long been sore on everyone ... tongue
          Quote: sufix
          No one will sell their knowledge and experience at half price and even with the restriction of civil liberties. And you can’t go far on bare patriotism.

          ... from the strength of 5 years after graduation ... well, already Experienced and Highly Qualified ... don’t tell my slippers ... but, especially ... about Civil liberties ... limited ... naturally by the regime and anti-people’s power. .. laughing
          1. sufix
            sufix April 28 2016 08: 35
            +1
            You may be arguing about hypothetical specialists who smear patriotic feelings on enthusiasm and drink down dreams. I'm talking about reality. All people need to eat, feed their families, develop their home. Those conditions that I offer to young specialists at universities, research institutes and design bureaus - they may not be the worst. However, in order to work in such a position, an engineer, even without work experience, must have high qualifications, with which, when installed in another place, he probably can get more and not have restrictions related to closeness.
            Quote: Inok10
            ... from the strength of 5 years after graduation ... well, already Experienced and Highly Qualified

            Show me where I have written about the "high qualifications" of specialists.
            Quote: Inok10
            ... this ma'am has long been sore on everyone ... tongue

            And this is my friend trolling. Please object to the merits.
            Quote: Inok10
            about civil liberties ... limited

            And what am I wrong about? Is this not a restriction of freedom, if a neighbor, the same citizen of the Russian Federation, can go wherever he wants, but the worker of a closed enterprise does not. It is clear that this is a necessity that was previously connected with the protection of state secrets. But actually this is a limitation.

            In general, sitting with your ass on the couch is very easy to talk about high things. It is a pity that sometimes "experts" do this, who are completely unrelated to the topic, but fill themselves with marshal's shoulder straps.
        2. Suhov
          Suhov April 28 2016 00: 29
          +2
          Quote: sufix
          The fact that people are fleeing from there is simply a sign of a mismatch between qualifications and encouragement.

          And interestingly, the salary in rubles is growing, and in money it is falling. wassat
          1. Mahmut
            Mahmut April 28 2016 06: 03
            +3
            Before the workers he received 230-270 rubles a month in his arms. After 5 years of study at a university and a diploma in mechanical engineering, he began to receive 115 rubles a month. Graduate students earned even less. This was the Soviet principle of higher education, the more you know, the less you earn. Nothing has changed since then.
            1. Homo
              Homo April 28 2016 07: 35
              0
              Quote: Mahmut
              Before the workers he received 230-270 rubles a month in his arms. After 5 years of study at a university and a diploma in mechanical engineering, he began to receive 115 rubles a month. Graduate students earned even less. This was the Soviet principle of higher education, the more you know, the less you earn. Nothing has changed since then.

              You started "for health" and finished "for peace." The fact of the matter is that in the USSR they paid for knowledge, skill and not for a crust. It was not enough to become an engineer, graduate student, etc., you had to prove that you are a SPECIALIST!
              1. Professor
                Professor April 28 2016 07: 40
                -2
                Quote: Homo
                It was not enough to become an engineer, a graduate student, etc., it was necessary to prove that you are a SPECIALIST!

                Nothing like this. Everyone received the same, regardless of knowledge, but depending on the staffing table. The famous Soviet egalitarianism. Whether you are a threesome or with a red diploma, the salary is the same. fellow
                1. tolancop
                  tolancop April 28 2016 10: 08
                  +1
                  Salaries were established by staffing. But no one has canceled the bonus system. T.ch. the numbers on the payroll were still different. Not at times, and not very much, but different.
              2. Mahmut
                Mahmut April 28 2016 09: 01
                0
                You started "for health" and finished "for peace." The fact of the matter is that in the USSR they paid for knowledge, skill and not for a crust. It was not enough to become an engineer, graduate student, etc., you had to prove that you are a SPECIALIST!

                Where does this information come from, to whom and what to prove? There are engineers of different categories up to the leader. Re-certification once every 1 years, young SPECIALISTS were not certified (by law). So consider getting a job - the salary is 3 rubles, after 140 years 3 rubles, after another 150 years -3, after another 160 years-3. Hurray 170 years of work as an engineer and you are already getting as a 9-year-old electric welder of the 17rd category. And even this only if you prove to the commission at each recertification that you are a SPECIALIST. And so that you are all of yourself Edison, and the director patting you on the shoulder said to his deputy for personnel, "Well, raise the salary for this guy by 3 rubles!" are fairy tales for schoolchildren.
                1. Homo
                  Homo April 28 2016 10: 29
                  -1
                  Quote: Mahmut
                  Where does this information come from?

                  From personal experience. hi
                  1. Mahmut
                    Mahmut April 28 2016 17: 43
                    -1
                    Yes, I know this "experience". You are confusing advanced training with career advancement. Then yes. But the worst bureau chief earns more than the most highly qualified engineer. And those who have become the Chief Engineer do not complain about their salaries. Only the chief engineer is no longer an engineer, but an administration. As well as heads of departments, bureau chiefs. I also knew such chief engineers, department heads and bureau chiefs who had not worked as a simple engineer for a single day before their appointment. A senior or leading engineer has a ceiling of -190 rubles. And that's it, you don't have to rock the boat any further, or change your profession and go to work.
                    1. Homo
                      Homo April 28 2016 19: 26
                      0
                      Quote: Mahmut
                      Yes, I know this "experience".

                      Everyone has a different experience. And do not align everyone on their own.
                  2. Homo
                    Homo April 28 2016 19: 25
                    0
                    I wonder whose minus? Do you know me personally and my experience?
        3. Homo
          Homo April 28 2016 07: 32
          +1
          Quote: sufix
          The fact that people are fleeing from there is simply a sign of a mismatch between qualifications and encouragement.

          What did you mean? What is the inconsistency? What is the qualification 2-3 years after graduation? They become a qualified specialist in at least 5-6 years, or even in 10! Then there will be appropriate encouragement! And if "show-off" over the edge and after a year give him "encouragement", then this is his problem.
          1. mav1971
            mav1971 April 28 2016 08: 01
            +1
            Quote: Homo

            What did you mean? What is the inconsistency? What is the qualification 2-3 years after graduation? They become a qualified specialist in at least 5-6 years, or even in 10! Then there will be appropriate encouragement! And if "show-off" over the edge and after a year give him "encouragement", then this is his problem.


            You did not confuse?
            A graduate becomes a normal specialist within six months or a year.
            And then most of the time he spends not on the technical side, but on the organizational.

            After 5 years, if he "does not move in any way" - he turns into a routine and a swamp, and then he will definitely be useless. Amorphous mass. No minuses, no pluses. Zero as a result, as one.
            1. tolancop
              tolancop April 28 2016 10: 14
              +2
              Butmo got nothing wrong. Six months to a year is the period for which the subject begins to understand something in what he is doing. And he will become more or less a specialist no earlier than in 3 of the year. And this applies to ANY profession or specialty. Exceptions are possible, but VERY rare. However, perhaps we have with you different criteria for evaluating a SPECIALIST. I met people who called themselves (without a shadow of embarrassment!) Specialists, but a couple of simple questions asked them to a standstill.
              1. mav1971
                mav1971 April 28 2016 12: 54
                -2
                Quote: tolancop
                Butmo got nothing wrong. Six months to a year is the period for which the subject begins to understand something in what he is doing. And he will become more or less a specialist no earlier than in 3 of the year. And this applies to ANY profession or specialty. Exceptions are possible, but VERY rare. However, perhaps we have with you different criteria for evaluating a SPECIALIST. I met people who called themselves (without a shadow of embarrassment!) Specialists, but a couple of simple questions asked them to a standstill.


                Questions are different.
                Ask a simple question: "What is electric current?" - a couple of hundreds of the smartest electrical engineers, electronics engineers, professors and academics and you will learn a lot of new things for yourself. Especially the fact that out of these two hundred, 2-3 people will know the correct answer.


                I knew in my youth an American.
                He worked then on a Boeing.
                He had no idea how planes fly at all.
                He specialized in aircraft chassis.
                But it was precisely in this that he was so strong that the real specialists of the Samara Hydroautomatics and the teachers of the Samara aerospace looked just like children.
                And why not?
                But because he is very highly specialized.
                He does not need a diverse theory for erudition.
                With which he will never face in his field.
                And in Russia, for some reason, it is believed that an engineer is a complete analogue of Cyrus Smith from the novel "The Mysterious Island" by Jules Verne.
                Believe me, this is certainly good, but this does not happen "for everyone".
                Deep narrow specialization, it is much more economically feasible, although comprehensive, but superficial development.
                Narrow specialization is repetitive operations and actions.
                In this vein, you can become a specialist in six months or a year.

                So I didn’t lie.
                And if you define a specialist as a diversified personality with whom you can play in the smoking room for the scale of the universe, then you need to drive someone from work! :)
                1. Mahmut
                  Mahmut April 28 2016 17: 29
                  +1
                  All breakthroughs in both science and technology occur on the brink of science or its sections. Therefore, great discoveries and inventions are not threatened by narrow specialists. Their destiny is to bring the bike to perfection.
                  1. atalef
                    atalef April 28 2016 17: 31
                    0
                    Quote: Mahmut
                    All breakthroughs in both science and technology occur on the brink of science or its sections. Therefore, great discoveries and inventions are not threatened by narrow specialists. Their destiny is to bring the bike to perfection.

                    So in Russia only great inventors are trained?
                    So how ?
                    By the way, discoveries in highly specialized areas, do you think they cost nothing?
                  2. mav1971
                    mav1971 April 28 2016 20: 43
                    0
                    Quote: Mahmut
                    All breakthroughs in both science and technology occur on the brink of science or its sections. Therefore, great discoveries and inventions are not threatened by narrow specialists. Their destiny is to bring the bike to perfection.


                    Well, stop idealizing ...
                    You apparently do not understand anything in production.
                    Geniuses are not needed in production.
                    We need perfect performers, so that all technological cards are executed as expected.
                    Who just understand what and how and why exactly this should be done ...
                    So that the grinding machine makes 9 passes, as written in the technical sheet. And not "ratspred-kulibinskie" 3 passes and then we rest ...
                    "Five-year plan in 3 years" completely kills the resource of the entire machine park ...

                    The whole industry should stay on strong middle peasants. Maybe even tees.

                    There may be a star in the team. King. But without the retinue that provides him, he is nobody. The naked king.

                    An example from a military theme.
                    Everyone knows the pilots of Kozhedub and Pokryshkin. Some know Hartman.
                    The best aces of the Soviet Union and Germany.
                    Maybe some on this forum will remember 5-10 aces surnames.
                    Sum up how many planes they shot down?
                    Now correlate this with the loss of a hundred thousand aircraft during World War II.
                    And now answer: "Who actually did the war?"

                    So much for production as well.

                    Besides.
                    Leaders are 1-5 per thousand.
                    The rest are slaves.
                    All different.
                    It is impossible to create a nation of leaders, geniuses, fantasy level engineers Jules Verne.
          2. sufix
            sufix April 28 2016 08: 39
            +2
            But what difference does a man show or even worse if he finds himself a workplace where he will receive more? Even with such qualifications. They do not just leave, they leave somewhere.
    2. vlad66
      vlad66 April 27 2016 21: 51
      +10
      In particular, one of the most serious reasons is the inability to travel abroad and publish scientific papers in foreign journals.

      Well, if you go to such a place, you should immediately understand that you have to limit yourself, the same truth-loving Sakharov was not allowed to travel abroad and no matter how all these rights, leftists and cryo-defenders puffed up, figs you would have let him out, and many weapons creators, academics and scientists, unfortunately, as well as scouts we sometimes find out only in an obituary. Well, and about education today they discussed how it is destroyed on another branch.
      1. jjj
        jjj April 27 2016 21: 55
        +4
        In Soviet times, I remember, in production, a young specialist was usually told: "Forget everything that you were taught at the institute."
        1. cniza
          cniza April 27 2016 22: 02
          +12
          An engineer is a piece production, he began as an engineer-designer in the service of the shipyard, he began to understand what they want from you in half a year, and how to do it in a year.
          1. Mahmut
            Mahmut April 28 2016 17: 53
            0
            Forget everything you were taught at the institute "

            This could be said only to someone whom they did not intend to use as an engineer. An engineer who forgets the compromising materials or the fundamentals of theoretical mechanics is no longer an engineer, but transfer papers in the office.
            1. Cat man null
              Cat man null April 28 2016 18: 06
              +1
              Quote: Mahmut
              An engineer who forgets the compromising materials or the fundamentals of theoretical mechanics is no longer an engineer, but to transfer papers in an office

              Well, at least not office plankton - and thanks for that .. laughing

              Mahmut, explain to me, please, clearly, why the shameful sopromat and / or theory is as follows to engineers:

              - electronic engineer (circuit engineer, for example)
              - programmer (any)
              - metal physicist (development and production of amorphous materials, for example)
              - physical chemist (corrosion and protection against it, for example)

              I can continue the list of professions. Sopromat and theorem to people of these professions .. did not rest in any side ..

              Avoid the quantifier of generality in statements (c) yes
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. NordUral
          NordUral April 27 2016 22: 08
          +9
          This is a tired bike. It was just that I had to develop new, practical knowledge in institute baggage.
          1. Cat man null
            Cat man null April 27 2016 22: 42
            +12
            Quote: NordUral
            It was just that I had to develop new, practical knowledge in institute baggage.

            An example from life: 1985 year, distribution in my native university:

            - for specialization (profiling department, which, a year out of 5.5 training, at least) - "buyers" were simply put across
            - as a result, metallophysicists fell into electroplating, and electroplating - into metal composites .. I exaggerate a little, but it was definitely like that too ..
            - okay .. we were really well prepared, we could have been rebuilt, but:
            - where the hell is that science? For which knowledge and hands are needed? But no:
            - Take a trip on a business trip, agree there and there (I personally visited Voronezh, Zaporozhye, Kiev, Voroshilovgrad, for six months ...)
            - go push the workers into the workshop - they had to do the equipment for a week, but no ... take the alcohol !! (separate song. С2Н5ОН - a universal catalyst for any process ..)
            - nakraynyak - you’re turning that thread-solder-weld it yourself ..

            In short, after six months, I was sick of it, and I turned to the programmers (young specialist, huh ... an unprecedented thing, in fact - 3 years at the distribution location is stupidly obliged to work out .. scandal of the scale of the enterprise, rather big - 6000+ employees).

            There (for programmers) there was at least some mental work.

            And I'm not the only one since graduation - actually from the course (about 200 people) "in place" horrible .. well, maybe 15 people .. or less request

            Quote: NordUral
            This is a tired bike

            - Well, what the hell .. Maybe, of course, who is more lucky, I don’t know ..
            1. kirieeleyson
              kirieeleyson April 28 2016 00: 01
              0
              and now almost the same, it is demanding for a Baumanka graduate to master JS for a 3-month trial period. And then, as he "mastered" (at random), the young graduate thinks, why do I need this, now I also know js))
            2. derik1970
              derik1970 April 28 2016 10: 27
              +2
              Graduated from the Samara Polytechnic Institute in 1992. In our time, it is real by specialty - and these are CNC machines, only two people work, and not even engineers, but stupid adjusters do not understand who is the specialty ... And at the institute there were two groups by specialty, 30-35 people in total, part of them girls. After graduation, who does what. There was no distribution as such, the crisis was already in 1992, perestroika was her mother, she had to look for work wherever you wanted. If I had been offered a job as students in this article then and even now, I would definitely not have refused. However, in those days, the state quickly degraded and it did not need engineers, who wanted to be retrained as managers and as lawyers with accountants, or to the market by shuttle. And even now no one needs an engineer with real diplomas, if there are no connections, then there is no normal work. Wherever you look, some kind of "Vasya" tyrant with connections is in charge of everything and he himself with the education of a forester or a lawyer. I now have two bosses with left-wing diplomas, I am the only one with a real graduated higher education. And you're right mental work zero, if I work with my head then as a battering ram ... hi
        4. Prisoner
          Prisoner April 27 2016 22: 37
          -1
          Because of such talkers, we are still mu-d-ooh, lagging behind in technology, logistics and in everything we can. How many bright, intelligent, creative minds were "detained" in the past with this "forget ..."
          1. Vadim237
            Vadim237 April 28 2016 00: 36
            -2
            "In everything that is possible" - probably only you are lagging behind.
        5. Aleksey_K
          Aleksey_K April 27 2016 22: 51
          +11
          Quote: jjj
          In Soviet times, I remember, in production, a young specialist was usually told: "Forget everything that you were taught at the institute."

          They didn’t say it in production, but Arkady Raikin from the stage. He said so, to enhance his satire. Personally, knowledge of mathematics, physics, probability theory and statistics helped me a lot in production. Working on computers at the institute allowed me to implement a system for controlling equipment from the server. A local network was created in the production and in the city at 10-approx kilometers. And this was in the beginning of the 80-s, when there was virtually no Internet access in the USSR. And without a specialized education, I would not be able to work at all. Here is what can be created in radio electronics without knowing this radio electronics itself? Therefore, forget these common phrases from a person (A. Raikin), who has never been in production.
          1. Cat man null
            Cat man null April 27 2016 23: 18
            +1
            Quote: Алексей_К
            Personally, knowledge of mathematics, physics, probability theory and statistics helped me a lot in production.

            - what was produced, if not secret?
            - mathematics, physics - in what approximately volumes?
            - theorver, statistics .. and what side are they to production?

            Quote: Алексей_К
            Work on computers at the institute allowed me to implement a hardware control system from the server

            - and what did this server manage, if not a secret, again?

            Quote: Алексей_К
            A local network was created at the factory and in the city for 10 kilometers. And this was in the beginning of the 80s, when there was virtually no Internet access in the USSR.

            - You personally? If so, my applause. If not, what is your role in creating this miracle?

            Quote: Алексей_К
            And without a specialized education, I would not be able to work at all. Here is what can be created in radio electronics without knowing this radio electronics itself?

            - that is, your specialty is somewhere in electronics, right?

            Not empty interest, believe me ..
          2. AleksPol
            AleksPol April 28 2016 00: 34
            +1
            Sorry and which servers were in the early 80s? Which computers they worked on, not by chance in the EU, and which series. I started with them too.
            1. jjj
              jjj April 28 2016 09: 20
              0
              Friends, as an example of excellent training of young specialists, as a rule, the best universities of the USSR are taken and even their classified specialties. After school, I myself tried to enter the Leningrad Polytechnic University, which was graduated by my father's brother, who worked as a chief designer in one of the "boxes" of the Great. So, applicants there were immediately invited to go to secret specialties with full classification of the name from the 3rd year. Such specialists, indeed, quickly mastered at the place of work. And they were often distributed already consciously. But at the Polytechnic Institute I realized that I was having a hard time with fractions, and went to serve.
              Let's go back to the Soviet universities. Apart from a small number of serious establishments, the bulk of them worked "because it was necessary." How did the students study there, what shots did they come out with? It was to them that they were told about the need to forget science, because they were terribly far from the realities of life. But everyone knew the basics of scientific communism and dialectical materialism
          3. derik1970
            derik1970 April 28 2016 10: 30
            0
            good You are absolutely right.
          4. CONTROL
            CONTROL April 28 2016 12: 55
            0
            Quote: Алексей_К
            Therefore, forget these common phrases from a person (A. Raikin), who has never been in production.

            It was written to him by "the best writer of all times and peoples" - Zhvanetsky! ... this sideshow!
        6. tolancop
          tolancop April 28 2016 10: 16
          0
          This is what you heard from Khazanov ...
      2. Reserve officer
        Reserve officer April 27 2016 22: 56
        +10
        The problem is very relevant.
        Higher technical education has degraded. I speak not just like that, but competently. In my time (I studied at the Bauman Moscow State Technical University in the 70s), they were engaged in mechanical engineering for 5 years, in the first year there were production workshops, the strength of materials was taught for 2 years, as well as termekh. Machine parts course - 3 years, advanced mathematics - 3 years, physics - 2 years. Specialty - 3 years. And now? We combined mechanical drawing and descriptive geometry into one course, added strength materials and termech - they called all this engineering graphics and taught for one year! Ravings of a madman. Who is being prepared? United Russia activists?
        But there are a lot of talented guys among the students. And all of them are ready to study and be experts. Only there is no one to teach them. At the departments in the institutes, there is only one "dull" left, which in life do not know how. All the rest left in the 90s to feed their families, at least somehow ...
        1. Tusv
          Tusv April 28 2016 00: 09
          +3
          Quote: Stock Officer
          And now? They combined the mechanical engineering drawing and descriptive geometry in one course, added sopromat and thermome - they called it all engineering graphics and taught one year! Ravings of a madman

          What you have listed is the basic course of a technical university of the late 80s. General physics and chemistry were also added. The tower really had 4 semesters. Everything else is profile
        2. Lekov L
          Lekov L April 28 2016 00: 13
          +14
          The problem is very relevant.
          Higher technical education degraded

          Reserve officer

          Colleague! Finished Cars in 84. My knowledge and skills were not needed by anyone according to the distribution in the WWDPA CA in the north.
          BUT...
          Education allowed both there, and after that in research institutes, and in native graduate school, and then in the years of wild capitalism and even at Harvard, to feel at the level and a little higher than the interlocutors.
          We were taught to learn everywhere and everything!
          That's why they are alive.
          Sincerely.

          And now ... engineers with a building education come, who cannot calculate the heated volume of the five-story building with a BITish passport ...
          No words - mate one ..
          I apologize.
          1. tolancop
            tolancop April 28 2016 10: 32
            +3
            I support. In due time from normal teachers I heard repeatedly: "Guys, our task is to teach you to STUDY! To be able to think, work with reference books, etc. The rest, when necessary, master ...". more or less like this.
        3. sisa29
          sisa29 April 28 2016 00: 21
          +1
          And I don’t understand why, while getting a specialty in the design of power plants in the 90s, I spent my time on: "political history" "philosophy" "political science". I had the impression that it was given five years and it was necessary to score time. It seems to me that if you study exactly the required disciplines, then you need less time
          1. Cat man null
            Cat man null April 28 2016 00: 35
            +10
            Quote: sisa29
            And I don’t understand why, getting at the university in the 90s of the specialty design of power plants, I spent time on: "political history" "philosophy" "political science"

            - You're lucky. In the early 80s, we also had this:
            1. Lunic
              Lunic April 28 2016 05: 25
              +4
              They reminded .. Well, at least they didn’t force me to learn this ..
              My father was writing for something (54 volumes out of 55). Most likely they were forced into the party cell. After all, our DOSAAF contributions were all "voluntary" ... And lottery tickets ... :) As in that movie: Whoever takes a pack of tickets will receive ....
              But seriously, I am very grateful to my factory for persuading me to go to study at the expense of the factory, paying food, accommodation and also a factory scholarship of forty rubles.
              The only bad thing is that perestroika was already in full swing and the factory didn’t live for long .. I only worked there for 5 months. Then the army, and after the army was stuck in the factory, and they say: We are glad to take you, but we have not paid the salary for half a year already ..
              1. Homo
                Homo April 28 2016 07: 42
                0
                And I read it all. I understood half, realized 25-30 percent.
            2. tolancop
              tolancop April 28 2016 10: 36
              0
              It was. Still found. But already running out ....
              A cousin is a candidate in some sciences (engineering). She said that when she wrote the dissertation, there were no problems in her specialty, but scientific communism and other trepidation drew her whole soul.
          2. Homo
            Homo April 28 2016 07: 38
            +2
            Quote: sisa29
            And I don’t understand why, while getting a specialty in the design of power plants at a university in the 90s, I wasted my time on: "political history" "philosophy" "political science".

            To broaden your horizons! An engineer (a person with higher education) must be developed in all areas. hi
        4. CONTROL
          CONTROL April 28 2016 13: 11
          +1
          Quote: Stock Officer
          Higher technical education has degraded.
          ... In my time (I studied at MVTU named after NE Bauman in the 70s), mechanical engineering was involved in drawing for 5 years,
          ... And now? They combined the mechanical engineering drawing and descriptive geometry in one course, added sopromat and thermome - they called it all engineering graphics and taught one year!

          Well, why now so deeply (as in our time!) Study drawing? When in bulk computer software applications - plotters? AutoCADs, COMPASSES are all sorts! The purpose of drawing is to express the design idea on paper / today - on the monitor screen!
          But thermekh and strength materials are fundamental, even more so - the foundation of an engineer's worldview! Taught them separately, yes, but! - as he studied, the student himself united them, creating a single picture of the "engineering world" - the worldview of an engineer, or something ...
          Quote: Stock Officer
          At the departments in the institutes, there is only one "dull" left, which in life do not know how. All the rest left in the 90s to feed their families, at least somehow ...

          ...It is what it is!
          ... Muscovites were spoiled by the "housing problem", and university professors - by the race for money - when from the need to survive in an "interesting time", and when from contamination with "consumerism" (well, at least, without the "d" instead of the second "t" word ...).
    3. boris-1230
      boris-1230 April 27 2016 22: 08
      +11
      Soviet higher education was much better than now.

      In Soviet times, I studied at an interesting technical school of secondary engineering. And my brother studied at the Polytechnic. So I solved problems with compromising materials and drew drawings for him. We were told that they say you are production sergeants! And the stock of knowledge was given that now, after 30 years, I can not only calculate the diagrams, but also develop equipment for manufacturing the part, and develop manufacturing technology, and calculate the area of ​​the site for processing the product. hi negative
      1. Corporal Valera
        Corporal Valera April 27 2016 23: 00
        +2
        “strong threes” arrive there

        In particular, one of the most serious reasons is the inability to travel abroad and publish scientific papers in foreign journals.

        Yes Yes. Ochin AbidnA "strong C grade" not to publish scientific works in foreign publications crying
        The lack of "All inclusive" is much easier for them
        1. Cat man null
          Cat man null April 27 2016 23: 39
          +1
          Quote: Corporal Valera
          Yes Yes. Ochin AbidnA "strong C grade" not to publish scientific works in foreign publications
          The lack of "All inclusive" is much easier for them

          The article is a little different though:

          According to another student interviewer at the specialized department, “strong threes” enter there, which, according to the exam results, are difficult to compete for budget places, and there is not enough money for paid education

          - "strong C grade" - he is not necessarily C grade. It's just that the race points are not enough "for the budget"
          - I fully admit that such a "C grade student", having also studied at a specialized department, in a couple or several years will be able to publish ... on the relevant topic.

          Something like this..

          And in general - to keep secret the "privates", despite the fact that the leaders are quite "visiting" - it is somehow stupid .. IMHO yes
        2. goose
          goose April 28 2016 09: 50
          0
          Quote: Corporal Valera

          Yes Yes. Ochin AbidnA "strong C grade" not to publish scientific works in foreign publications
          The lack of "All inclusive" is much easier for them

          In fact, strong threesomes were able to do the same, two of my acquaintances of the threesome became teachers, none of the graduate students, these people were all selfish, no way teaching psychology. In the end, the top three without the obligatory knowledge of all that was needed was not to get. Let some have this knowledge, they didn’t bounce off their teeth, but in practical exercises they all did the same thing, in the same volume and with the same result. Otherwise, even the top three was not to get. Therefore, the difference between 3-4-5 was rather ghostly in the majors. In non-core - I agree, the three could have been put up just like that, for example, in physical education or in the sociology of religion.
          1. CONTROL
            CONTROL April 28 2016 13: 19
            0
            Quote: goose
            ... or the sociology of religion.

            What the hell is that ?!
            THIS is now taught in universities ???
            ... mom ... I love the pilot! ...
      2. tolancop
        tolancop April 28 2016 10: 37
        -1
        There was that too. Another technical school gave training above the institute.
    4. Aleksey_K
      Aleksey_K April 27 2016 22: 40
      +2
      Quote: oleg-gr
      Graduates of prestigious Moscow universities with great ambition and want everything at once. On the periphery, everything is much simpler.

      Yes, enterprises spit on graduates with ambition. Do not want to receive what they offer, go wherever you want. And then, all of them with ambition, themselves understand that they still do not know how. Only if the student participated in the research work for the enterprise on a topic financed by the enterprise and if he showed his mental abilities. Loyal and stupid - they won’t even take on the minimum wage. Career growth in production has always been (and during the USSR) the concern of the most working young specialist.
    5. vsoltan
      vsoltan April 27 2016 22: 52
      +2
      oleg-gr

      The first, the very first, I managed to comment. ...So what? The content in your comment is zero, dislike for "Muscovites" is voiced ... uh-huh, stupid, definitely, graduates of Baumankka, MIPT, MAI. .. everything in your post is bad. .. but hurray! We managed to write at least something first. .. like a puddle. ... :-)
      1. goose
        goose April 28 2016 10: 00
        +2
        Quote: vsoltan
        Yeah, stupid, definitely, graduates of Baumanki, MIPT, MAI

        No, they are not stupid, but the opportunities of the capital's universities were largely bought due to the oppression of regional analogues - the difference in the places of graduate school is about 10 times, in the number of budget places, the difference in scholarships, financing of departments and applied institutes, in salaries and staff of teachers. To justify this, introduced the ranks of universities.

        I believe that this is extremely wrong and harmful to the education system. Thus, the myth is created that a normal education can be obtained only in Moscow, and our country is large. A pump was created to pump out all passionate personnel to Moscow, while they must be spread throughout the country.
    6. sgazeev
      sgazeev April 28 2016 07: 44
      0
      Quote: oleg-gr
      Young professionals evaluate themselves differently. Graduates of prestigious Moscow universities with great ambition and want everything at once. On the periphery, everything is much simpler. Soviet higher education was much better than now.

      So two Dimona are not working according to their profile. One lawyer, the second journalist. In the armed forces, to cancel the contract system for the officers, set the bar for 20 years, and higher if desired, he will not leave here. recourse
    7. The comment was deleted.
    8. The comment was deleted.
    9. goose
      goose April 28 2016 09: 34
      0
      Quote: oleg-gr
      On the periphery, everything is much simpler.

      This is the most negative thing that exists in our country - the periphery. Without a budget, without infrastructure, respectively, without prospects.
      1. CONTROL
        CONTROL April 28 2016 13: 24
        0
        Quote: goose
        Quote: oleg-gr
        On the periphery, everything is much simpler.

        This is the most negative thing that exists in our country - the periphery. Without a budget, without infrastructure, respectively, without prospects.

        But in fact - talents are right there, on the periphery!
        ... such a senile observation, maybe insanity? ...
    10. Ezhaak
      Ezhaak April 28 2016 11: 07
      0
      Quote: oleg-gr
      Soviet higher education was much better than now.

      Excuse me, what? In the late 70s, the young man returns from MIIT home to the periphery and confidently claims that VLF with transformerless output is not and cannot be! But a specialist!

      Or the graduate was allocated to production and no one could fire him. But during this period, the former graduate of the university only learned to work. This is not taught in universities.

      Like today. A specialist who completed his studies at the university is not able to draw up an estimate of the project!
  2. Million
    Million April 27 2016 21: 39
    +10
    Thanks to Gorbachev, thanks to Yeltsin, thanks to Putin, thanks to Medvedev for the collapse of Soviet education. Yes, and Russian too ...
    A stupid economy in the country cannot be built by stupid people, and the authorities cannot or do not want to understand this.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 April 28 2016 00: 41
      +1
      And what is in your concept of "Strong Economy"?
    2. Ezhaak
      Ezhaak April 28 2016 13: 00
      0
      Quote: Million
      Thanks to Gorbachev, thanks to Yeltsin, thanks to Putin, thanks to Medvedev

      It really was. I'm going to Techsnab. The task is to choose 100 tons of metal for production. I submit documents. They were scanned for all seals and signatures and sent to the warehouse. When I was informed there, the total amount should be 90 tons. To the question: Why 90? The answer was simple. According to the plan, you are supposed to save 10 tons of metal. So save. Is it a strong economy? In the time of Brezhnev. The economy must be economical. The oil must be oily. Etc.
  3. twincam
    twincam April 27 2016 21: 39
    +4
    Nowadays, managers, comers are held in high esteem, and other venal scum, brought up in the spirit of "everyone owes me," are sold.
    1. Yak28
      Yak28 April 27 2016 22: 00
      +8
      Of course, why go to the factory with a turner, or an engineer at a research institute, or a mechanic if you can sell phones or batteries with disks for the same salary, or stand stupid as a security guard in a supermarket
    2. mav1971
      mav1971 April 28 2016 20: 53
      0
      Quote: twincam
      Nowadays, managers, comers are held in high esteem, and other venal scum, brought up in the spirit of "everyone owes me," are sold.


      Well, fantasy ...
      Just those very types listed by you - everyone should.
      Due to employers - come on sales! And then we’ll fire!
      Own a bank for a mortgage - let's pay it,! And then we will evict!
      Must around the world!

      And only hard workers in the factory owe nothing to anyone!

      The salary is small - I will not take a mortgage, I will bring my wife to my parents' house, they will move to the kitchen!
      Children should not be allowed to go to kindergarten for parental meetings! There is a grandmother - let him walk. retired anyway!
      and the most important thing!
      I will work as you pay, but pay a little - and I will not work! I should not hunch over you! I work in a factory, not in a private sharashka!

      Ottakota, little ones! :(
  4. 31rus2
    31rus2 April 27 2016 21: 46
    +2
    Dear, the second article for today on this topic, we write, read, criticize, refute, the point is that everything went on and on, practically destroyed the "bad Soviet" and, alas, failed to create a truly modern, equal, universal, education, while only promises, but for some reason I can't believe
    1. Yak28
      Yak28 April 27 2016 22: 04
      +6
      50 years will pass and our bright minds will create an education system, medicine of 1980 lol
  5. iouris
    iouris April 27 2016 21: 49
    +9
    Becoming an engineer begins even before kindergarten. Soviet education was "not the best", but systemic. Today - the victory of clip thinking. No one can do anything without a computer and the Internet. No engineering practice. I see no reason for optimism. Generally.
    1. NordUral
      NordUral April 27 2016 22: 12
      +3
      In the Union, it all started with circles, the choice of profession was made consciously and based on interests. Now this is practically nonexistent, everything is decided by prestige and payment.
      1. Tusv
        Tusv April 27 2016 22: 32
        +5
        Quote: NordUral
        In the Union, it all started with circles, the choice of profession was made consciously and based on interests. Now this is practically nonexistent

        Come on. Mugs of darkness. Another thing in the Soviet Union was the free Pioneer Houses and the relatively free Lights.
    2. CONTROL
      CONTROL April 28 2016 13: 30
      0
      Quote: iouris
      I see no reason for optimism. Generally.

      Many do not see; I also!...
      Do I have to wear glasses, or what? or look more closely? ... to search, albeit with a microscope!
  6. Vlad5307
    Vlad5307 April 27 2016 21: 54
    -3
    Quote: 31rus2
    important, the second article for today on this topic, we write, read, criticize, refute, the point is that everything went on and on, practically destroyed the "bad Soviet" and, alas, failed to create a truly modern, equal, universal, education, while only promises, but for some reason I can't believe

    Well, in the fall, elections to the State Duma - so think about who you choose there, and give them instructions not to be lazy and watch how they fulfill them! Maybe the cart will move from the liberal swamp in the right direction! hi
  7. Aleksandr1959
    Aleksandr1959 April 27 2016 21: 56
    +5
    I had to serve as the senior technician of the aircraft on the Tu-22M3 and first as an assistant to a leading test engineer, then as a lead test engineer in Akhtubinsk.
    As for graduates of high schools with military departments in Soviet times. Most of them lacked special knowledge then, but there were exceptions. Especially after the FEST of Moscow Lestech, after the Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology ... many of these guys later remained in the army and were considered highly qualified specialists. As a senior aircraft technician, I had to deal with graduates of the Ufa Aviation Institute. Honestly speaking, almost everyone was not happy with this audience. A very small percentage of them remained to serve after two years.
    In the test department, which was engaged in testing specific types of aircraft, we had a certain qualification. At least two to three years in the parking lot for the operation of equipment (if you immediately got to Akhtubinsk after the higher engineering aviation school). After Zhukovka and the Kiev school, the guys who studied there after secondary aviation technical schools were assigned to the department immediately. These were highly qualified specialists who quickly entered service. There was one more way to get higher engineering education in Akhtubinsk. Evening faculty of the Moscow Aviation Institute "Takeoff". Officers, after secondary aviation technical schools, received a higher engineering education there without interruption. By the way, the flight personnel admitted to the Akhtuba Center for training test pilots and test navigators were immediately enrolled in the third year of this university. Pilots for the specialty "Aircraft", navigators for the specialty "Radio equipment" This system of training personnel with higher engineering education fully justified itself, despite a decent dropout in the evening faculty of MAI. Not all officers could combine service and study. But those of them who graduated from this university were highly qualified specialists. There was one nuance. Many girls graduated from this faculty to get a "crust" on higher education. But ... a very small percentage of them worked in their specialty.
    1. Monos
      Monos April 27 2016 22: 40
      +6
      Especially after the FEST of Moscow Lestech, after MIPT ..


      Uh ..., I'm sorry, I hear something for the first time, so that they will be distributed from your physical education to your region. From which faculty of physical education did they come to you? It’s just strange, we had no engineering training. Well, that is, she was not at all. Maybe with FALTA? What they were taught there in Zhukovsky I do not know.
      1. Aleksandr1959
        Aleksandr1959 April 27 2016 22: 58
        +3
        Uh ..., I'm sorry, I hear something for the first time, so that they distribute

        Thanks for the clarification.
        A man from MIPT served in the parking lot in the 80s. In the electronic equipment service group. He didn’t serve with us for long, apparently it was necessary to militarize .. since he had not served for two years, he transferred to military acceptance. He was a good electronics specialist. Although, frankly, I do not know which faculty he graduated from. Well, if I chose such a path to militarize and then serve in the Moscow region in military acceptance, I do not blame him. Since in the parking lot, with his knowledge, he really had nothing to do. FALT alumni did not have to intersect.
        1. Monos
          Monos April 28 2016 08: 19
          +5
          Now it’s clear. Let me guess ... It was 1988 year. I'm right? smile
          1. Aleksandr1959
            Aleksandr1959 April 28 2016 10: 54
            +1
            Did not guess a little. It was 1983-84. But, you are right, in another, indeed, with the graduates of the Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology, who were then militarized, I later met maybe once or twice. He got a little excited.
            As for the Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology, my daughter was very helpful in studying at a correspondence physical-mathematical school at the Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology, although she abandoned her when she began to prepare for admission to an economic university. This study gave her a good approach to mathematics. And when I graduated from high school with a gold medal (physics and mathematics class) and while studying at the Faculty of Economics at the Higher School of Economics, and now during work. Thank God I managed to finish school before the introduction of the exam.
            1. Monos
              Monos April 28 2016 13: 02
              +5
              May God grant health and success to your daughter, grandchildren and you. drinks
              1. Aleksandr1959
                Aleksandr1959 April 28 2016 15: 59
                +1
                Thank! And all the best to you !!!! drinks
  8. Pvi1206
    Pvi1206 April 27 2016 21: 57
    +6
    If the state needs defense industry, then people need to be interested.
    And our leadership wants to eat a fish and sit on something ...
  9. Camel
    Camel April 27 2016 22: 00
    +6
    But the question for those present is whether for many people the desire to go abroad doesn’t matter for what (rest, work or permanent residence), overpowers the desire for a normal job? I’m asking not out of empty curiosity, but because the employee of such a research institute and, frankly, in his entire 35-year life, has never experienced ANY regret because of regime restrictions. NO ONE! And my friends (except for one, and he wasn’t very much) also did not suffer from the restriction on leaving, and we didn’t have a need either.
    So I ask - is it my friends and I are so strange or not everyone needs to go abroad?
    1. nov_tech.vrn
      nov_tech.vrn April 27 2016 23: 18
      +1
      Well, here the question of "success" is being successfully introduced into the minds of Russians, back in the early 90s an indicator of a person's success in Russia was the opportunity to travel abroad on vacation, this opportunity even became one of the markers of attitudes towards the so-called "middle class". Accordingly, home processing often begins, a friend was resting in Thailand, and we are like tied ...
  10. Barakuda
    Barakuda April 27 2016 22: 08
    +5
    But really, who is familiar with the oscilloscope and tester, pnp, npn transitions, and all sorts of others - polar, etc. - the last century? A school physicist taught me. And at the institute-college, he wrote programs in assembler like a ram like a ram, and then he soldered to the war.
    So I work part time, that I’m repairing a mob sometimes. Phones Sorry, in dill. Walkie-talkies - not capable, next excuse the JEWISH cantor ... Ssukii.
    1. Koshak
      Koshak April 28 2016 05: 02
      0
      "forgive the JEWISH office ... Ssukia."
      Excuse me, what are you talking about?
  11. akims
    akims April 27 2016 22: 26
    +1
    I am a Ukrainian teacher. From experience - the best over the hill. Formerly Russia + Europe. Now is China. Working languages: Russian, English - in CHINA !!! Learn !!!
  12. Bashibuzuk
    Bashibuzuk April 27 2016 22: 26
    +4
    Let's think about it -
    "..But most of those who have left are willing to lose money and security for more personal freedom and less control ...."
    .. Here and the whole layout.
    ..
    The point is that as soon as approaches to closed development begin, so right there you need to sign Approval-1 ..or whatever it is called now.
    ...
    At one time, for me, this was also the most significant factor.
    ...
    What is this talking about, huh?
    Yes, it’s just that the counterintelligence services were completely lazy.
    Foreign intelligence services eat bread for nothing.
    Support services for VIP-persons abroad - does not exist.
    ...
    An interesting movie ... all scientists, academics, publishers, Nobelians ... abroad, how they drive home.
    They do not apply to the gray mode, right?
    And the young fool who has just developed a "pseudo invisibility cutter" is spreading, right?
    And it cannot even be released into Egypt, on SharmAshaykh ...
    But where are our special services in general? What are they doing? Study the reports of informers on each other?
    ...
    The right question contains the correct answer.
    ...
    Here I see - the statement of the question - is fundamentally wrong.
    ...
    So I see.
    1. Turkir
      Turkir April 27 2016 22: 42
      +1
      You see correctly.
  13. bragin
    bragin April 27 2016 22: 35
    +1
    [quote = boris-1230] [quote] And the supply of knowledge was given that now, after 30 years, I can not only calculate diagrams, but also develop equipment for manufacturing the part, and develop manufacturing technology, and calculate the area for processing the product. hi negative[/ quote] I support!
  14. Undermined ustoev
    Undermined ustoev April 27 2016 22: 51
    +5
    The only way out is to return to the tested Soviet experience: to prepare at universities not according to the special, but according to the general program, but at the same time give a broad picture of what is happening in the industry. Only in this way a compromise is achieved between training in a profile and obtaining system knowledge in the field of applied sciences.
    With the current system of social structure, this is impossible in principle. Since capitalism does not imply deep planning, but is guided by profit and only profit. The bigger, the better. Deep and ambitious planning is possible only with the socialist mode of production, where there is room for the introduction of scientific and technological research and normal education, designed not to sell crusts, but to prepare a real specialist. Historical experience is already available. Repeat?
    1. CONTROL
      CONTROL April 28 2016 13: 58
      0
      Quote: Undermining the Foundations
      With the current system of social structure, this is impossible in principle. Since capitalism does not imply deep planning, but is guided by profit and only profit. The bigger, the better.

      An interesting confirming observation (maybe wrong): - in the same USA it is considered unsuccessful, "stagnant", a specialist - as a rule, a manager or a military man, or a policeman who works in one place without career growth for more than 3-5 years. Like, it is not formed, has no success, does not move forward - vertically! (But - after all, career growth is also possible "horizontally" ...). And with career growth - a person should not stay to work after promotion in the same place, work with the same people!
      Transfer to another city, to another area ...
      Classic - the movie "Die Hard": the plot of the intrigue is connected with the career growth of Bruce Willis's wife - a police officer in the story; transfer with a promotion to another city ...
      Or - a young detective (opera in our opinion) comes to a police station in another area of ​​the city, "grown up" from the patrol police ... In that section, with the guys - with whom they rolled into the bar and hung up ... the muzzles of the hooligans were beaten. ..no, you can't! because now you are above them, and they are your subordinates!
      ... On the one hand, there are some incentives in this, and again there is a "condom" against corruption ... But - only for paramilitary structures, well, and for managers-managers ...
      ... In industries associated with continuous "communication" with technology, science and around science - it does not work! ...
  15. Igluxnumx
    Igluxnumx April 27 2016 22: 57
    +4
    A true engineer is a creator, a creator. A good institute is good, but it takes time in production - six months to a year - to understand what's what. And at this time, especially, you need to feel that your work is needed, you need help and help from more experienced ones. It is necessary that there are no domestic problems: housing, food, etc. And the most intelligible assessment of labor is the size of the salary. And perspective. Of course, there is a risk that the young engineer will want everything, immediately and more. On the other hand, it quickly becomes clear who is worth what. I do not idealize the times of the USSR, but it was - better, now - darkness! The government has already tried several times to say that there are not enough engineers, they say. But for now, that's all - crocodile tears, nothing more. I had a chance to work as an engineer-metrologist, so the former chief of the traffic police was appointed the head to us. Can you imagine? In short, it is not necessary to pour tears, but to grow and nurture worthy ones. Costs and attention will pay off.
    1. LÄRZ
      LÄRZ April 27 2016 23: 49
      +2
      Quote: Iglu40
      the head of the former traffic police chief

      Imagine. I worked at an enterprise where Ch. The engineer was a former police captain. Ukrainian.
    2. goose
      goose April 28 2016 10: 12
      0
      Quote: Iglu40
      so the chief of the traffic police put us in charge

      How did these chiefs get "with experience in managing people" of all stripes - military, police, firefighters, and simply "chiefs" from the housekeeper or booze. As a rule, they come from outside, the only specialization is intrigue. As a rule, temporary workers, with rare exceptions.
      1. Aleksandr1959
        Aleksandr1959 April 28 2016 11: 00
        0
        How did these bosses get "with experience in managing people" of all stripes - military, police, firefighters, and simply "bosses" from the housekeeper or bukh

        As for the military, you got excited. Good military engineering education no one has canceled. At our import enterprise, the production director is a former military man (submariner). Of the four shift supervisors, two are reserve officers.
        Yes, and experience in managing people is also needed. But "effective managers" .... is a special topic. No experience in managing people .... no knowledge.
        the only specialization is intrigue. As a rule, temporary workers, with rare exceptions.
  16. nazar_0753
    nazar_0753 April 27 2016 23: 02
    +4
    Personally, at every mention of our beloved Ministry of Education and Science, I want to give Livanov a good smack in the head with some durable device from those that are heavier. I thought that in 6 years it was already possible to understand that if you say the word "halva", your mouth will not become sweeter, and thoughtlessly transferring foreign developments in the educational field to our land is a futile business. But no ... There was already a completely working education system, well, since you want a new one, they would have been a little shy about its form, maybe they had set up something from above. And why the heck demolish it to the ground?
    1. CONTROL
      CONTROL April 28 2016 14: 03
      +1
      Quote: nazar_0753
      Personally, at every mention of our beloved Ministry of Education and Science, I want to give Livanov a good crack on the head with some durable device that is heavier.

      I can recommend Kashkarov’s hammer ... not a very accurate measuring device, but very durable!
  17. tehnokrat
    tehnokrat April 27 2016 23: 15
    +4
    There were many random ones who got into the engineering profession “by mistake” before. And they left home with great joy after 3 years of working out according to the distribution, not even knowing exactly where they would work “at home”: “Father will arrange!”
    In order to develop practical skills among young specialists, I think, there are 3 things necessary:
    1. the presence of positive production experience among the main teachers of the department;
    2. well-equipped training sites with existing equipment, and more hours on them in the schedule;
    3. Legislatively oblige managers of serious enterprises (for example, those who work for government orders) to accept students for practice.
    When I tell my young colleagues how we were taught:
    - that at the department all the main employees had experience in factories from 7 to 20 years;
    - that the entire first floor of our building is clogged with operating machines, and we worked on most,
    they either envy me or don't believe me.
    As for foreign countries, they were striving to take money and buy a car, and even better from there and bring, VAZ or Volga, an export copy. They definitely didn’t want to go on vacation, there was enough Crimea for someone, for Baikal!
  18. vladimirvn
    vladimirvn April 27 2016 23: 25
    +8
    Today, solving a crossword puzzle, the question "Element of a plant cell" confidently brought "Vacuole". I shed a lot of tears, I have been waiting for 30 long years for the moment to use this information from school ...
  19. vel1163
    vel1163 April 27 2016 23: 57
    +3
    And what we want! A good engineer must have knowledge, technical knowledge, be engaged in real work and be responsible for their work. And managers at the same defense enterprise get more and no responsibility. Well, like we went to the exhibition, well, we concluded they didn’t conclude something. By the way, I opened the site of the Voronezh Aviation Plant. Jobs engineer, designer to digitize documentation, knowledge of the Compass, etc. Salary 20000 rubles. Cool !!!
  20. Zomanus
    Zomanus April 28 2016 00: 07
    +1
    We still need to be able to grow an engineer.
    And often it’s the makings from school.
    Many of us are sitting with school soldering irons?
    And if they sit, then it’s not a fact that they will then go to production or universities.
    Previously, there was a selection starting from children's clubs, from the Pioneer Houses.
    When a person was given the opportunity to grow and pushed to work in production.
    And now the service center for repairing mobile phones and other offices are the lot of such nuggets.
    And if we just train an "engineer in a vacuum", then a lottery comes out, in terms of whether he is suitable for production or not.
  21. atamankko
    atamankko April 28 2016 00: 19
    +1
    In addition to knowledge, you also need a desire to work
    in their specialty and respect for her.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 April 28 2016 00: 51
      0
      Now experience is in the foreground.
  22. drags33
    drags33 April 28 2016 00: 40
    +2
    Ready-made specialists never left universities - neither in Soviet times, nor now. But at the same time, under the Soviet education system, the gap between the level of knowledge of a young engineer, a graduate of a university, and the level of real tasks in production was not so large. And the young engineer continued his growth in real business, solving the tasks assigned to him.
    Now the situation has changed radically - the level of technology, its complexity are growing rapidly, and the level of training of bachelors / masters (we no longer graduate engineers !!!) is steadily falling. And it turns out that the gap between the potential of the graduate and the real tasks in production is so great that graduates simply do not go to work in their specialty (!!!)... They do anything for the sake of earning money (installing plastic windows, repairing roofs, advertising, etc.), just not to work in engineering. You can calculate exactly when the country will run out of competent, knowledgeable engineers ... Then the end of Russia's technological and industrial independence will come! Western "partners" have probably already calculated these terms and are looking forward to this collapse of our country. And this situation will continue until we abandon the "world educational standards" imposed on us and revive our own national education, which has always been considered the best in the world!
    1. CONTROL
      CONTROL April 28 2016 14: 12
      0
      Quote: drags33
      And it turns out that the gap between the potential of the graduate and the real tasks in production is so great that graduates simply do not go to work in their specialty (!!!)... They do anything for the sake of earning money (installing plastic windows, repairing roofs, advertising, etc.), just not to work in engineering. You can calculate exactly when the country will run out of competent, knowledgeable engineers ... Then the end of Russia's technological and industrial independence will come! Western "partners" have probably already calculated these terms and are looking forward to this collapse of our country.

      ... Yes, the bomb was planted, the fire extinguished, the ignition cord was measured in length and set on fire! Waiting for it to explode!
      Or maybe it’s passing by? And if it explodes, the fireman’s team needs to jump on time! ... They don’t have time - and they will get, maybe even more than us? ...
      Signs of the destructive work of the "Bologna system" not only in our country - and in the West too! Who will "sink" before? ...
  23. Just BB
    Just BB April 28 2016 05: 03
    +1
    Quote: Million

    A stupid economy in the country cannot be built by stupid people, and the authorities cannot or do not want to understand this.

    So they don’t build it! wassat
  24. SklochPensioner
    SklochPensioner April 28 2016 05: 06
    0
    Cosmodrome East. HOORAY!!! There is a start !!!!!!
  25. Just BB
    Just BB April 28 2016 05: 22
    -1
    Quote: SklochPensioner
    Cosmodrome East. HOORAY!!! There is a start !!!!!!


    Tortured!
    But there the "effective"
    1. Bramb
      Bramb April 28 2016 05: 55
      -1
      Where are you getting from, huh?
      A simple question: when did the Americans build a new spaceport? They even destroyed the production of their own engines, not to mention the new cosmodromes!
      And how will they do something really outstanding in Russia? then there are such bugs with their "tortured".
      Did he do something serious with his little hands, martyr? The question is rhetorical, because those who really did something difficult know what it costs. And worthless like you always spit in someone else's bowler hat.
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 April 28 2016 09: 36
        0
        "They even destroyed the production of their engines" - this is something from the look of fantasy, engine building in the USA, in all areas of mechanical engineering, is well developed.
  26. Svetovod
    Svetovod April 28 2016 05: 30
    +3
    Everything crumbles without a planned economy. MARKET = death. Market economy - eating each other, planned economy - all feed each other. For whom the difference is not obvious - these are economists.

    The plan for specialists and all that meant that there were already jobs and tasks for future masters were pre-scheduled. And today we don’t even remember what for and where it comes from, we’re marking the spot and the training of the masters is purely by inertia from the USSR
    1. Bramb
      Bramb April 28 2016 05: 50
      +1
      That's right !!!
      A planned economy is the foundation of any state! In the same Germany, England, and states, the basis is a planned economy. And about the mighty invisible hand of the market rubbed by fools to ruin them.
      A simple example on the forum topics: build a 5th generation airplane WITHOUT a plan.
      )))))
    2. goose
      goose April 28 2016 10: 19
      0
      Quote: Svetovod
      Everything crumbles without a planned economy. MARKET = death

      The first to understand this at Ford. Now all multinational companies have switched to a planned economy, the planning period, which is interesting, most have five-year plans.
      The economy that is taught in our universities was rejected in the United States at the beginning of the last century, as obsolete, because it led to the Great Depression.
    3. mav1971
      mav1971 April 28 2016 20: 57
      0
      Quote: Svetovod
      Everything crumbles without a planned economy. MARKET = death.


      Now answer what is a planned economy?
      and relate it to a particular company
  27. Bramb
    Bramb April 28 2016 05: 31
    +1
    One point is not taken into account: how is the money paid to graduate students?
    In my time I worked part-time, even got a round-the-clock pass to the laboratory so that I wouldn’t waste time: during the day I worked, in the evening and at night I carried out experiments, I bought reagents with my own money. Because there was almost nothing. And then suddenly I met my leader in Warsaw: I came there for clothes, and she was sitting in a restaurant. He began to ask questions and found out that money was being charged for my work, for me at that moment it was huge !!! And I buy reagents at my own expense, I wander around in Poland for money and stand in the markets, I trade !!! That day he left.
    An article was published on my work, but I was not there: I did not understand English and there was no title. So they explained to me.
    These are our corresponding members quite often.
    But at least not in vain: based on my achievements, a new plant was built. Well, it was not in vain that experience was gained: one workshop on a different topic was already made with direct participation, and two more in the project. It makes no sense to leave: a friend in California works. If 10 years ago he received 10 times more than me, then now it’s inconvenient for him to say that his income is my pocket money.)) Well, conditionally, of course, I have not two throats.))
    So that. those who leave make a huge mistake. I feel sorry for them.
  28. tchoni
    tchoni April 28 2016 06: 13
    +1
    He came, worked for some time, got seniority and resigned, ”the department head of one of the enterprises involved in the production of electronic warfare equipment shared with the Military-Industrial Courier.
    And you guys, at least pay a piece of greenery (for the hinterland) or two for Moskvabad - you see, they won’t leave.
    It should be noted that in many defense research institutes and at enterprises, young employees without work experience are offered a good salary and various social benefits. But the majority of those who have left agree to lose money and security for the sake of greater personal freedom and less control.

    Those. salary consisting of 10 salary + 75-100% bonus + 25-40% for secrecy - a total of 20-25 thousand per month (about 300 bucks) for a person who must CONSTANTLY solve non-trivial tasks is this a good level of remuneration? + the lack of the opportunity to go abroad ... You know, an electrician earns so much in the backwoods with a puty on his shoulders ... And a good turner or welder - they can have as much as two times .. and neither any secrecy, nor any function, terver and other ideas every day. And in Egypt, if it is opened in a new way, you can go in order to bow down to the monil of the hero of the Soviet Union comrade. Nasser. And for one and heat the bones ...
    organizations. The only way out is to return to the tested Soviet experience: to prepare at universities not according to the special, but according to the general program, but at the same time give a broad picture of what is happening in the industry. Only in this way a compromise is achieved between training in a profile and obtaining system knowledge in the field of applied sciences.

    Still, there would be someone to cook .... One might think that people who are at the forefront of science, moreover practical, (and for microelectronics this is important because it is controlled by His Majesty the technical process) are taught in Russian universities ... There, in the best case, they will tell you about 0.25 micron technology, which is not yesterday for the bourgeoisie - a week ago.
    In order to grow science, it is necessary to swell into it and to swell corny money. Without the hope of a quick result, like in a hole ...
    Or forget that we have oil, introduce a ban on its export, as mattresses did, and engage in production ...
    1. goose
      goose April 28 2016 10: 24
      0
      Quote: tchoni
      And a good turner or welder - they can have twice as much .. and neither any secrecy, nor any kind of funk, terver or other assault every day.

      Believe me, no, my friend in the yard could not find a welder with good qualifications for laying a gas pipeline in 2014 for half a year. Offered 600 thousand per month. And then a salary of 20-25 thousand for exclusive knowledge and a smart mind. Compare it with a lawyer-lawyer or economist, for whom memorization guarantees a red diploma and an initial salary of at least 2 thousand euros.
  29. avg-mgn
    avg-mgn April 28 2016 07: 30
    +2
    Quote: tchoni

    Those. salary consisting of 10 salary + 75-100% bonus + 25-40% for secrecy - total 20-25 thousand per month (approximately 300 bucks) per person who must CONSTANTLY solve non-trivial tasks is this a good level of remuneration? + the lack of the opportunity to go abroad ... You know, an electrician earns so much in the backwoods with a puty on his shoulders ... And a good turner or welder can have twice as much pain .. and not any secrecy, nor any function, terver and other ideas every day.

    Of course, any work requires a decent reward, but ...
    I am a person of the old formation and I will tell you that not everything and is not always measured by the amount of money, there are other concepts. "I love my job" - said engineers and graduate students receiving 120-140 rubles (steelmaker 250). Did young people always go to science or military schools for a high salary? And they all knew that the road to Turkey was closed for them for many years, but they went and did their job successfully. It's bad that today only money has become the measure of labor for many, it's good that not for everyone.
    1. tchoni
      tchoni April 28 2016 10: 18
      0
      So grandfathers who love their work are sitting in the institute. And young people have young wives who need to be loved, children who need to be put on their feet.
  30. Professor
    Professor April 28 2016 07: 32
    +1
    The only way out is to return to the tested Soviet experience: to prepare at universities not according to the special, but according to the general program, but at the same time give a broad picture of what is happening in the industry.

    This is nonsense. The scoop has sunk into oblivion and cannot be returned. Now other realities. Want to attract and retain talented graduates? Pay them $ 3000 a month and they won’t run away from you.


    PS
    About trips abroad and publications are also nonsense. With trips, the issue is solved, but I did not meet those who wanted to be published in the first 5 years of work. Anyway, many engineers write scientific articles?
    1. goose
      goose April 28 2016 10: 30
      +2
      Quote: Professor
      Pay them $ 3000 a month and they won’t run away from you.

      In modern Russia, the average contribution of wages to production costs is about 4%. In Soviet times, it was 8-11%. In the West, 20-22% has long been considered the norm, in some industries up to 80%. So our business can easily give $ 3000, BUT ... the toad will crush the economist and appoint an equal and even higher salary than some "grimy techie". Moreover, more often than not, an economist is a girl (woman) with a correspondingly highly inflated self-esteem and our female "corporate" spirit against dorks. And given the twofold excess and quality of education of economists and accountants, this factor is exacerbated.
      1. TOR2
        TOR2 April 29 2016 22: 03
        +1
        Quote: goose
        BUT ... the toad will crush the economist and appoint an equal and even more, higher than the salary of some "grimy techie". Moreover, more often than not, an economist is a girl (woman) with a correspondingly highly inflated self-esteem and our female "corporate" spirit against dorks.

        All this is treated, there would be a desire. For example:
        Currently, Stadler Rail has won a tender for the supply of 25 double-decker trains for the Aeroexpress line that connects Moscow railway stations with airports in the Russian capital.

        http://finobzor.ru/show-11806-cherez-kerchenskiy-most-poedut-shveycarskie-poezda

        .html
        If a prime minister had been worthwhile, he would have summoned representatives of the transport engineering industry to his carpet, and would have dung them with shiny faces on the battery. That would have built themselves and no worse. After that, money would be found for the "grimy techies", while economists with inflated self-esteem would well fly out of the general’s office, and salary plans would follow.
  31. avg-mgn
    avg-mgn April 28 2016 07: 41
    +1
    Quote: Professor
    Pay them $ 3000 and they won’t run away from you.


    In general, wages are wages because they require earning them, i.e. produce a salable product. And pay $ 3000 thousand - buy it. And "shovels", as you say here, have nothing to do with it, money for work has always been little for everyone (this is how a person is), but happiness is not in money alone, believe me.
    1. Professor
      Professor April 28 2016 07: 49
      +4
      Quote: avg-mgn
      In general, wages are therefore wages because they require them to earn, i.e. produce the product being sold. And pay $ 3000 - buy it.

      Let's not reinvent the wheel, but learn from the successful experience of the bourgeoisie. Have you heard that in the USA, Germany or Israel, someone complained about the lack of young specialists in the military-industrial complex? I can share the experience of these three countries. There are differences in approach between them, but high salaries and stability in the military-industrial complex are common there.

      Quote: avg-mgn
      And "shovels", as you say, have nothing to do with it, money for work has always been little for everyone (this is how a person is arranged), but happiness is not in money alone, believe me.

      Who is talking about happiness? However, money is the base. It is because of them that 99.9% go to work. Children know whether everyone needs to be fed. Who will go to the military-industrial complex if the company opposite, for the development of applications on smartphones, is paid several times if not by orders of magnitude more?

      PS
      Intel in Israel lures excellent pupils to itself even when it was before cancer, like before Paris. Pays a bunch and the result is obvious. Raphael is the same story.
    2. mav1971
      mav1971 April 28 2016 08: 32
      +3
      Quote: avg-mgn
      [i] but not happiness alone in money, believe me.


      You know, but non-material motivation works only on every third employee.
      Moreover, it works no more than 1-2 once a year and no more than 3 years in a row.
      Everything else is from the evil one.

      Money is the most important parameter.
      It is difficult to make an aircraft worth 100 million dollars, getting for its labor only 20 thousand rubles ...
      Especially realizing that your neighbor trading in sand and gravel receives 120000 rubles.
      You create a shield of the country and feed on a doshirak, and he eats and drinks from a belly and a car and a girl from him.
      For young people this is very important. And girls and cars.
      It is with age that understanding of slightly different values ​​comes.
      And the young one needs self-esteem, which is formed by external factors. Including money.

      Employees need to be bought and nothing else.
      It’s just not to take everyone, but to catch those who are needed. And it’s them who pay a lot.
      100 "zeros" are always "zero".
      5 "stars" is 5 "stars".
  32. Dean
    Dean April 28 2016 08: 21
    +6
    And for what? A young specialist comes to me to get a job. Polytechnic Institute, radio operator, red diploma, all things. He sits - he is immeasurably arrogant. I'm talking. So word for word, the conversation reached technology. He asked to calculate the resonant frequency of the oscillatory circuit. And ... Oh, a miracle. Super special duper sits and stares at me like a ram. And I'm on him ... From surprise. Honestly - I did not expect such a result. And the last thing I finished off - to the question, in what units is the inductance measured? Silence!!! And this is not an isolated case now. The guys have too high self-esteem.
    1. HAM
      HAM April 28 2016 08: 44
      +3
      I, practically, also got into the same situation: the "specialist" told me that now there are other physical laws, and I am outdated with my electrodynamics and other nonsense .. I was in shock for a long time ..
    2. CONTROL
      CONTROL April 28 2016 14: 19
      0
      Quote: Dean
      And for what? A young specialist comes to me to get a job. Polytechnic Institute, radio operator, diploma, all things.

      It was necessary to ask a "paradoxical control question": - what did you paint your diploma with?
  33. Sgt.
    Sgt. April 28 2016 09: 13
    0
    Unfortunately in Russia now there is a lot of "C"
  34. then
    then April 28 2016 10: 15
    +3
    About the system: The purpose of the transition to the Bologna system of education was the recognition of Russian (then Soviet) education abroad.
    Result: Neither Soviet education, nor international recognition.
    On education: The aim of higher education was not so much the amount of knowledge as the skills to obtain and use it in practice (to study, study and study as bequeathed ...).
    About honors and threesomes: From experience they work as the chief designer, excellent pupils use the theory to solve the formulated problem, and solid threesomes look for a similar problem with a ready-made solution (well, at least that).
    On remuneration: Until now, no one has really explained how much it is fair for a person to pay for a particular job. As a result, at my factory, when revising the wage system, the most necessary and highly paid workers of the plant turned out to be inspectors of the labor and wages department (who developed this system), the most unnecessary - the designer.
  35. avg-mgn
    avg-mgn April 28 2016 11: 00
    -1
    Quote: Professor
    Who will go to the military-industrial complex if the company opposite, for the development of applications on smartphones, is paid several times if not by orders of magnitude more?


    Why all this talk about "high salaries". You will buy a smartphone for $ 10 thousand. if the real price of the components is $ 50, and the rest is the same salary of $ 3000 for those who packed it in a nice box? But the price of the kit also includes the salary of developers and technologists and assemblers ..... Well, you don't like the salary in the military-industrial complex (by the way, too), go to the company opposite, where smartphones are made, sit down and write applications, if you don't know how - don't envy , go to trade in rubble. In general, ignorance of the subject - economics, leads to these empty talk about high wages in the absence of personal contribution to production.
    1. Professor
      Professor April 28 2016 12: 37
      +2
      Quote: avg-mgn
      Well, you don’t like the salary in the military-industrial complex (by the way, too), go to the company opposite, where smartphones do, sit down and write applications, don’t know how - don’t be envious, go rubble to trade.

      I went. But let the military-industrial complex not cry for a lack of specialists. hi
  36. avg-mgn
    avg-mgn April 28 2016 11: 09
    0
    Quote: mav1971
    It is difficult to make an aircraft worth 100 million dollars, getting for its labor only 20 thousand rubles ...

    Let's triple the salary, no, ten times. Are you okay? Maybe yes. But you will scare away the buyer of your products at the price of an airplane that will automatically double. Result - You are unemployed and live on allowance. This is so for measurement.
    1. mav1971
      mav1971 April 28 2016 13: 02
      0
      Quote: avg-mgn
      Quote: mav1971
      It is difficult to make an aircraft worth 100 million dollars, getting for its labor only 20 thousand rubles ...

      Let's triple the salary, no, ten times. Are you okay? Maybe yes. But you will scare away the buyer of your products at the price of an airplane that will automatically double. Result - You are unemployed and live on allowance. This is so for measurement.


      A bit wrong.
      The point is the organization of production.
      The world has changed, but the defense industry enterprises and their way of working have not changed in any way.
      As was the case with the Samara Engine Builder in 1985, everything remained the same. After 30 years, I came there somehow again - as if I were in a fairy tale. About lost time.
      No changes.
      And people seem to be from that era.
      It is necessary to completely change the working scheme of the financial and economic unit of the plant management.
      I just see how resources are wasted. Both labor and temporary.
      Everything can be done with a reduction in the number of people by at least 30 percent.
      But this requires a lot.

      It is best to burn the old factory, disperse all the workers and then rebuild on this site.

      And that no old employee could come to the first two years to find a job.
  37. trantor
    trantor April 28 2016 14: 27
    +2
    The only way out is to return to the tested Soviet experience: to prepare at universities not according to the special, but according to the general program, but at the same time give a broad picture of what is happening in the industry. Only in this way a compromise is achieved between training in a profile and obtaining system knowledge in the field of applied sciences.

    I don’t understand why I had to leave this system because of my stupidity.
  38. sufix
    sufix April 28 2016 19: 31
    0
    Quote: mav1971
    Narrow specialization is repetitive operations and actions.
    In this vein, you can become a specialist in six months or a year.

    I completely agree. The tasks of a calculation engineer, for example, boil down to several basic types of calculations, which can be mastered in a few months. Further work becomes a chore.
    1. atalef
      atalef 5 May 2016 18: 22
      +1
      Quote: sufix
      Quote: mav1971
      Narrow specialization is repetitive operations and actions.
      In this vein, you can become a specialist in six months or a year.

      I completely agree. The tasks of a calculation engineer, for example, boil down to several basic types of calculations, which can be mastered in a few months. Further work becomes a chore.

      You have a strange concept about * Narrow specialization *
      Well, let's start - doctor - surgeon - specialization - knee joint.
      chemist - specialization - photosynthesis
      physics - specialization - optics
      Well, touch on my native energy
      my narrow specialization is diagnostics of high-voltage equipment of power substations and transformers.
      Well, teach someone all these specializations - in a few months and where is the routine?
  39. Just BB
    Just BB April 28 2016 20: 20
    0
    Quote: Bramb
    Where are you getting from, huh?
    A simple question: when did the Americans build a new spaceport? They even destroyed the production of their own engines, not to mention the new cosmodromes!
    And how will they do something really outstanding in Russia? then there are such bugs with their "tortured".
    Did he do something serious with his little hands, martyr? The question is rhetorical, because those who really did something difficult know what it costs. And worthless like you always spit in someone else's bowler hat.


    I'm not a martyr at all - they taught and learned to analyze events.
    And he did not only Hands (not little hands!), But also Head - there is something to remember!
    And the fact that I am right today the President confirmed: - "encouraging" the chiefs! And loud processes during the construction period also do not paint the "effective" "martyrs" I mentioned.
  40. TOR2
    TOR2 April 29 2016 20: 46
    0
    Quote: drags33
    And this situation will continue until we abandon the "world educational standards" imposed on us and revive our own national education, which has always been considered the best in the world!

    In many posts, Soviet education is recalled and positioned as the best. Then a quite reasonable question arises - why was such a lag behind the West allowed?
    machine tool industry
    engine building
    engineering
    Where were the experts with the best education in the world? This is for heavy industry, and if we take agriculture as an example, the picture is not better. The list of scarce products for some reason only increased.
    Not everything was normal at that time, and it is also not necessary to idealize it, if only in order not to make mistakes in the future.
    The main problem of today's educational system is the lack of demand for knowledge. And this is understandable. Good salaries are usually in cum-lane positions, and knowledge is not needed there.