Military Review

Both machines - AK-12 and AEK-971, - participating in the competition for inclusion in the equipment "Warrior", passed state tests

278
The automata presented by Kalashnikov and Degtyarev for the contest to be included in the “Warrior” equipment passed state tests, reports RIA News the message of the head of the Defense Ministry to ensure the state defense order Mikhail Osyko.




“Both machines (AK-12 and AEK-971) ended up with state tests and fulfilled the requirements of the TTZ with modifications and long enough tests. But the Ministry of Defense will consider this issue both in terms of their technical characteristics and price indicators ”,
told the colonel.

According to him, “both automata significantly outnumber regular samples”.

“We are now working with them to optimize this price, working in terms of assessing their production, series. Which of the enterprises more purposefully and in a complex will approach this problem, probably, will receive orders from the Ministry of Defense. But at the same time, taking into account the existing presence in the warehouses of those machines that we have previously purchased, they will probably be equipped with units, first of all, for special purposes, performing separate tasks, some airborne units, ”Osyko said.
Photos used:
http://www.sdelanounas.ru
278 comments
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  1. Reserve buildbat
    Reserve buildbat April 24 2016 11: 59
    +2
    The main thing is that the machine guns do not turn out to be the same trash as the AN-94, which for some reason someone has adopted.
    1. Proxima
      Proxima April 24 2016 12: 15
      +108
      Quote: stock buildbat
      The main thing is that the machine guns do not turn out to be the same trash as the AN-94

      These are really WORTHY AUTOMATONS. On the one hand, the new "Kalash" is lighter than the 971st, a revised trigger mechanism that allows you to reload the machine with one hand, that is, you don't have to twitch the bolt every time you change the magazine. On the other hand, the new "tar" significantly reduced the recoil by installing a fundamentally new mechanical device - a telescopic balancer, but this made the machine a little heavier. In a word, as at the races, they go head to head. Another thing is important: OUR WEAPONS, AS ALWAYS, GOOD MEN! Keep it up!
      1. Darkmor
        Darkmor April 24 2016 12: 25
        +25
        It would be if both developers cooperated and based on these 2 machines would create one - combining all the best ...
        1. cniza
          cniza April 24 2016 12: 30
          +41
          “We are now working with them to optimize this price, we are working in terms of evaluating their production, series.


          The larger the series, the cheaper it will be, but you should not reduce the cost due to the characteristics.
          1. Monos
            Monos April 24 2016 13: 10
            +20
            But the Ministry of Defense will consider this issue both in terms of their technical characteristics and price indicators, ”


            I think they will accept "Kalash" all the same, and "Dektyarev" will get good export prospects: state tests passed, but not accepted for service - it turned out to be so expensive, and so it is no worse. Again, good for the spetsura, accuracy is important here, not the intensity of the fire.
            1. alexmach
              alexmach April 24 2016 15: 23
              +11
              There is another parameter not considered - reliability.
              1. aktanir
                aktanir April 25 2016 07: 00
                +6
                the automatic machine in the photo - aek-971 - is impressive in terms of ergonomics and compactness, and the design is excellent, before our products looked much more "clumsy", although they won with reliability and unpretentiousness
                1. bravo-fab
                  bravo-fab April 25 2016 20: 41
                  +1
                  The AK-12 also has a lot of customization, a pre-mount and a handle + awnings, for example, a tactical handle on the fore-end
                  1. yehat
                    yehat April 26 2016 09: 08
                    +1
                    I believe AEK has the prospects of customization not worse
                    this factor should not be determining!
                2. goose
                  goose April 26 2016 14: 45
                  +1
                  I saw the estimates of NATO experts for the Kalashnikovs with a counterbalancer and AEK, they really liked it, especially with a counterbalance.
            2. Dryuya2
              Dryuya2 April 24 2016 18: 25
              +7
              Quote: Monos
              turned out to be so expensive

              yesterday in the program "GENSTAB" this topic was a bit discussed
              about machines from 34 minutes
          2. DMB_95
            DMB_95 April 24 2016 13: 12
            +60
            I don’t like the criterion - which is cheaper, we’ll take it. After all, we are talking about choosing an assault rifle with which each soldier will be armed, to whom he is assigned on a state basis. A mobilization reserve must also be created. An automatic machine should be selected, first of all the best in terms of performance characteristics, reliability, maintainability. It should be an effective weapon in the hands of any recruit or reservist. Price, of course, matters, but not decisive.
            1. ARES623
              ARES623 April 24 2016 14: 45
              +1
              Quote: DMB_95
              I don’t like the criterion - which is cheaper, we’ll take it.

              But I like to receive a pension, child benefits, maternity capital, many budget items related to social programs. I think we must proceed from reasonable sufficiency.
              1. DMB_95
                DMB_95 April 24 2016 15: 26
                +44

                For pensions and everything else, we pay heavy taxes from our poor salaries. In addition to taxes from citizens, the state has huge state corporations, where "top managers like" set their own salaries, and even stupidly steal and pay the same 13% of taxes. Even schoolchildren know about the widespread cutting of budget money at all levels. These are the sources of financing for the defense industry, not maternity capital.
                1. Großer feldherr
                  Großer feldherr April 24 2016 15: 43
                  +5
                  It’s for nothing that taxes in Russia are among the smallest in the world.
                  1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                    Andrei from Chelyabinsk April 24 2016 16: 03
                    +1
                    Quote: Großer Feldherr
                    It’s for nothing that taxes in Russia are among the smallest in the world.

                    Excuse me, who told you such nonsense? One of the largest in the world, you probably wanted to say
                    1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                      Vasilenko Vladimir April 24 2016 19: 02
                      +1
                      you are self taxes when the thread is calculated, paid?
                      numbers can lead?
                      1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir April 24 2016 20: 10
                        -2
                        and yet, with the numbers, can someone justify their minuses ?!
                      2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk April 24 2016 21: 06
                        +17
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        you are self taxes when the thread is calculated, paid?

                        Imagine - yes.
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        numbers can lead?

                        Excuse me, has Google banned you, or what?
                        But okay, especially for you a small excursion. For example, France. They pay the payroll tax, it looks like this: if the payroll of a specific employee amounts to 35,9 thousand euros per year - 4,5%, from 35901 to 71700 euros - 8,5%, if 71,7 thousand is exceeded - 13,5%.
                        Further. In addition to the payroll tax, there is also an income tax from 10,52% to 47%. But they are starting to pay it (at the minimum rate) with an amount in excess of Euro 25610 per year.
                        At the same time, for example, a single mother earning 52 thousand euros per year will pay a fee at the rate of 10,52. If there is a family, the income is divided by the number of family members, i.e. for a single mother and her daughter, income will be 26 thousand euro per person, although the mother earns 52 thousand per year.
                        You will pay 13% income from your salary + 31% social deductions.
                        In Russia, the average salary is 465 euros (before deduction of personal income tax), taking into account social payments (in the past - a single social tax) - 609,15 euros per month or 7310 euros per year from which you will have 404,55 euros per month or 4854 euros per year. Thus, approximately 33,6% is deducted from our average salary. In France, you will pay 4,5% from such a salary and you will have 581,74 euros per month. or 6981 euro.
                        The average sn in France is 45 500 euros per year or 3792 euros per month. From it you pay 8,5% tax on the payroll and approximately percent so 20-21 - income, and all - about 30% taxes. At worst.
                      3. tpwr
                        tpwr April 24 2016 21: 23
                        +4
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You will pay 13% income from your salary + 31% social deductions.

                        So poorly understood. It can be explained more simply.
                        In order for a person to receive 10.000 rubles. the enterprise must pay the state for it more various taxes and contributions of at least 4.965,52 rubles. (for harmful production more). Those. in total, taxes and contributions from the Payroll Fund amount to 33,18% (in this case, the payroll will be 14.965,52 rubles). And the well-known 13%, this is only one of the deductions, income tax.
                        In addition, there are still other taxes on the company, not on the payroll.
                      4. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir April 24 2016 21: 31
                        -9
                        Excuse me, has Google banned you, or what?

                        yes no, unlike you, I paid taxes not only in Russia

                        during
                        google it and roll it foolishly
                        In the Russian Federation, the tax burden is one of the lowest in the world.
                        http://baguzin.ru/wp/?p=2598

                      5. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk April 24 2016 22: 28
                        +12
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        yes no, unlike you, I paid taxes not only in Russia

                        And? :) Well, tell me, in all the chilling details :)
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        google it and roll it foolishly

                        Do you know what I like most about illiterate opponents? Demanding numbers. Like, confirm your point of view with facts. But when you confirm, they somehow turn up their nose and say "google further". They themselves are not able to bring anything. Well, SOMETIMES you can see some kind of nonsense like this here
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        http://baguzin.ru/wp/?p=2598

                        Discover, and what do we see? Take a simple example - personal income tax. For Russia, 13% is indicated. For France - as much as 50%! BREAK! In France, more are being drunk? Nothing of the kind, in France they pay LESS. Because the maximum bid is indicated. And the fact that a person in France, receiving a salary of 2130 euros per month does NOT pay personal income tax at all - this is nonsense. And that a Frenchman with his average salary pays taxes (as a percentage) less than Russian - is also nonsense.
                        In general, exert yourself and try to bring at least something remotely resembling an argument
                      6. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir April 24 2016 22: 41
                        -2
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And? :) Well, tell me, in all the chilling details :)

                        you would have to pay the Kazakhstan VAT once in production and immediately feel better
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        In general, exert yourself and try to bring at least something remotely resembling an argument

                        this is from a series of how RI "fed" Europe and walked widely in 13, the figures were given and the conclusions are the same
                        as well as a rating of tax burden or do you think that you are the smartest
                        The World Bank Total Tax Rate and PricewaterhouseCoopers consulting company analyze the tax systems of 189 countries. Specialists take into account the number of payments, the time required to pay them, as well as the total tax burden on the company.
                        On average, the world tax burden on the profit of a company that does not enjoy any benefits is 40,8%. In the leader of the rating - Qatar - enterprises pay 11,3% of profit as taxes.

                        Russia was on the 47th place in the list
                        this rating was also made by "illiterate opponents" ?!
                      7. tpwr
                        tpwr April 24 2016 23: 46
                        0
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        this rating was also made by "illiterate opponents" ?!

                        Yes, something like "illiterate opponents".
                        They completely did not take into account in their calculations the fact that in the Russian Federation (and not only in the Russian Federation) the state sells part of the property of its citizens and takes all 100% of the proceeds for expenses. And this, whatever one may say, is also a tax in kind, because a citizen is losing part of his property. It's not just about oil and gas. There is also round timber, metals, etc. And this fact in countries trading in raw materials must be taken into account. Indeed, without these taxes in kind, the state would have necessarily raised the rates of taxes and contributions in monetary terms.
                        Therefore, all these tablets, they are nothing more than interesting. Because, on the whole, they are completely wrong. At least with respect to commodity trading countries. There are a lot of them in the world.
                      8. Come on
                        Come on April 26 2016 06: 23
                        +3
                        What does the company and all sorts of rich people have to do with it? The main burden is borne by ordinary employers. It turns out that you are so happy that some 13% rotenberg-Deripaska pays? Although they often do not pay it, as they usually have Swiss citizenship and, accordingly, they pay taxes there.
                    2. vkaplich
                      vkaplich April 25 2016 03: 59
                      +5
                      In general, the assertion that taxes in Russia are among the lowest in the world (among less developed countries) has a right to exist. For example, taxes in the United States range from 20% or higher depending on income. For example, I personally pay 35%. And yes, companies also pay tax on accrued salaries, so 35% is just the income tax, the analogue of which in Russia is 13%. A friend lives in Sweden pays about 40%. In other countries you can google.
                    3. FREGATENKAPITAN
                      FREGATENKAPITAN April 25 2016 06: 51
                      +3
                      And if without Google then? ........ And the introduction of a fee for overhaul is not a tax? And the excise taxes are endless on fuel .. and other, other ....... Now it’s possible to google and estimate how much they generally pumped out of us ...... and compare with Sweden ...
                    4. Vasilenko Vladimir
                      Vasilenko Vladimir April 25 2016 07: 53
                      +1
                      Quote: FREGATENKAPITAN
                      And the introduction of a fee for overhaul is not good

                      no
                      so you can agree that the purchase of bread is the same tax
                    5. Old old
                      Old old April 26 2016 00: 53
                      +1
                      And if without Google then? ........ And the introduction of a fee for overhaul is not a tax? And the excise taxes are endless for fuel .. and other, other ....... Now you can google it and figure out how much we generally get pumped out of us ...... and compare with Sweden ..

                      Forgot England with Germany (and not only) with their tax on TVs.
                      Excise taxes and fees around the world are enough.
                    6. Old old
                      Old old April 26 2016 00: 53
                      0
                      And if without Google then? ........ And the introduction of a fee for overhaul is not a tax? And the excise taxes are endless for fuel .. and other, other ....... Now you can google it and figure out how much we generally get pumped out of us ...... and compare with Sweden ..

                      Forgot England with Germany (and not only) with their tax on TVs.
                      Excise taxes and fees around the world are enough.
                    7. Come on
                      Come on April 26 2016 06: 26
                      +1
                      So you generally look and decide. Of course, everything must be taken into account. Free infrastructure at the highest level of medecine (in France no one needs to get to the hospital 50 km off-road)
                  2. ARES623
                    ARES623 April 26 2016 18: 35
                    +2
                    Quote: FREGATENKAPITAN
                    .An introduction of a fee for overhaul is not a tax?

                    Overhaul fee is a kind of deduction for depreciation of your property. She (property) also requires attendants. When it is dilapidated, few will be able to finance one-time repairs out of pocket. Do you want to pay? Build your house, but there you will have to save money for a time when the rafters rot or the porch fails.
                2. Victor Demchenko
                  Victor Demchenko April 25 2016 08: 04
                  +6
                  and in response I will give an example of HOW the average pensioner lives in the same states, Sweden, and the same in France:
                  on their retirement they can afford to travel once a year in 1 (first) class around the world, but with us, I can only afford a trip to the "dacha" and even then by minibus, if there is ...
                3. Vasilenko Vladimir
                  Vasilenko Vladimir April 25 2016 09: 13
                  -1
                  it has nothing to do with taxes
                4. Lunic
                  Lunic April 27 2016 06: 36
                  +1
                  Who is the "middle state retired"? I’m just wondering, I’ve been living here for 20 years and haven’t seen that average retirees would allow themselves to fly first class, and even around the world ... Sorry! I do not agree with you here. The average retiree in the states receives about $ 1000- $ 1200 state pension (if he worked until the age of 65 and regularly paid taxes) plus a pension from a private pension fund, if he saved his entire working life in this fund.
              2. DMB_95
                DMB_95 April 25 2016 10: 19
                +2
                Yes, our income tax is a percentage lower. But salaries and pensions are lower at times. To take 13% from a salary of 30 thousand rubles is a mess.
              3. Vasilenko Vladimir
                Vasilenko Vladimir April 25 2016 10: 20
                0
                so maybe you just need to tie the salaries of "workers" to the salaries of the management ?!
              4. DMB_95
                DMB_95 April 25 2016 10: 53
                +1
                Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                so maybe you just need to tie the salaries of "workers" to the salaries of the management ?!

                And who is against? Can you tell me how to do this, living in a provincial town. Option with the Revolution and the Civil War is not to offer.
              5. Vasilenko Vladimir
                Vasilenko Vladimir April 25 2016 11: 40
                +2
                but here are only two options, either the one that you proposed not to offer, I'm sorry for the tautology, or it needs to be done from above, otherwise everything will be done from below
              6. DMB_95
                DMB_95 April 25 2016 14: 06
                +1
                Those. There are no normal options.
              7. Vasilenko Vladimir
                Vasilenko Vladimir April 25 2016 14: 28
                +1
                Well, in my understanding, when the leadership of the state makes a decision that helps to improve the situation in the country, there is a normal solution
            2. Come on
              Come on April 26 2016 06: 27
              0
              Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
              but here are only two options, either the one that you proposed not to offer, I'm sorry for the tautology, or it needs to be done from above, otherwise everything will be done from below


              Exactly!
            3. tank64rus
              tank64rus April 26 2016 14: 55
              +1
              I offer 37 years cheaply and angrily.
        2. goose
          goose April 26 2016 14: 55
          +1
          Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
          so maybe you just need to tie the salaries of "workers" to the salaries of the management ?!

          In Germany, they recently moved away from this system, roughly speaking, in a large company, the salary of the very bottom from the very top could differ by 10 times. We have cases and 1000 times. It is considered normal if the director and accountant receive a salary equal to the total salary of 2-3 thousand ordinary employees + bonuses.
          Merkel recently expressed concern about the departure from the socialist principle of salary restrictions. They want to return.
    2. Perseus
      Perseus April 26 2016 06: 03
      0
      it depends on income, it’s not necessary to exaggerate, in the states there are different conditions for paying taxes, salary, having children, etc. .. well, and finally, move to Russia, pay 13%, and enjoy life ...
    3. Perseus
      Perseus April 26 2016 06: 03
      +1
      it depends on income, it’s not necessary to exaggerate, in the states there are different conditions for paying taxes, salary, having children, etc. .. well, and finally, move to Russia, pay 13%, and enjoy life ...
    4. strelok-54
      strelok-54 April 26 2016 23: 56
      +1
      Now let's talk about interest rates on loans in Russia. Take a business loan at 30% secured by 150% of the loan amount and take it easy.
      In America, show someone such credit conditions, he will go and shoot himself quietly! Give me a bet on loans like in America and I agree to pay taxes like in America.
  2. yegor_k
    yegor_k April 25 2016 13: 27
    -3
    And in principle, only one requirement of numbers already makes me laugh :)
    Please - especially for stupid numbers: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0.
    Everything, there are no more digits, but what they mean is numbers, sums of quantities ...
    It's like in Russian letters with the words mix up.
  3. Vasilenko Vladimir
    Vasilenko Vladimir April 25 2016 14: 32
    +1
    please indulge in sophistry ?!
    so maybe then with numbers you can refute the data of statistical studies ?!
  4. Come on
    Come on April 26 2016 06: 19
    0
    And besides, in France, tax evasion and shoving money into off-limits are strictly punishable.
  5. tpwr
    tpwr April 24 2016 22: 37
    0
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    http://baguzin.ru/wp/?p=2598

    There is an erroneous number of Employer Social Security - the social security tax levied on the employer. This is not 26, but a total of 30,2%.
    And in general, the data is interesting. The main thing is that it should not be the same as with the number of social security contributions in the Russian Federation.
  6. dkflbvbh
    dkflbvbh April 25 2016 09: 18
    0
    And I collect them in Russia ...
  7. yehat
    yehat April 26 2016 09: 15
    +2
    in Russia, taxes for the rich are not too high - yes, but the fact that it’s worse is much less to pay in Europe.
  8. Victor Demchenko
    Victor Demchenko April 25 2016 07: 59
    +2
    he will also drag you about Sweden and Norway, they say there are more taxes than ours!
  9. bk316
    bk316 April 25 2016 13: 41
    +2
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    In addition to the payroll tax, there is also an income tax of 10,52% to 47%. But they begin to pay it (at the minimum rate) with an amount exceeding 25610 euros per year.

    WRONG, do not write about what you do not know.
    At a minimum rate, they start paying him from 5963 euros per year. It is clear that to live on this money in France without a chance, and in Moscow too.
    From 26 thousand they start paying it at a rate of 30%. That is, 2 pieces of euro is already considered rich in France. I somehow do not think such a decent salary.
    From 11 to 26 thousand 14 percent.

    By the way, your campaign is not at all in the subject, because in reality everything is more complicated in France, in our understanding there is strictly no individual income tax there, there is income per member of a household. Feel the difference.
    In terms of, for example, a family of 3 with a disabled wife and a small child, everything is very similar to us, well, a little more. But at the same time, life in Paris will be more expensive than in Moscow.
  10. goose
    goose April 26 2016 14: 57
    +2
    Quote: bk316
    But at the same time, life in Paris will be more expensive than in Moscow.

    Not a fact, given the cosmic prices of transport and real estate.
  11. The comment was deleted.
  12. Yars
    Yars April 25 2016 20: 44
    0
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    you are self taxes when the thread is calculated, paid?

    Imagine - yes.
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    numbers can lead?

    Excuse me, has Google banned you, or what?
    But okay, especially for you a small excursion. For example, France. They pay the payroll tax, it looks like this: if the payroll of a specific employee amounts to 35,9 thousand euros per year - 4,5%, from 35901 to 71700 euros - 8,5%, if 71,7 thousand is exceeded - 13,5%.
    Further. In addition to the payroll tax, there is also an income tax from 10,52% to 47%. But they are starting to pay it (at the minimum rate) with an amount in excess of Euro 25610 per year.
    At the same time, for example, a single mother earning 52 thousand euros per year will pay a fee at the rate of 10,52. If there is a family, the income is divided by the number of family members, i.e. for a single mother and her daughter, income will be 26 thousand euro per person, although the mother earns 52 thousand per year.
    You will pay 13% income from your salary + 31% social deductions.
    In Russia, the average salary is 465 euros (before deduction of personal income tax), taking into account social payments (in the past - a single social tax) - 609,15 euros per month or 7310 euros per year from which you will have 404,55 euros per month or 4854 euros per year. Thus, approximately 33,6% is deducted from our average salary. In France, you will pay 4,5% from such a salary and you will have 581,74 euros per month. or 6981 euro.
    The average sn in France is 45 500 euros per year or 3792 euros per month. From it you pay 8,5% tax on the payroll and approximately percent so 20-21 - income, and all - about 30% taxes. At worst.

    Let's start with the fact that 3792 is far from the average salary, I do not think that Germany is much different than in France! 3,800 is already quite a big salary for such countries as Germany or France! If a person does not yet have a family, then he will be stupidly taken away by taxes on the floor of this salary, then renting an apartment, tax and insurance on the car, utilities and even through the relatively high cost of fuel (despite the fact that the barrel is already far from 100 to the bottom! Believe , at the end of the month there is not much left, and the trend is negative, and the retirement age is already rising before 70!
  13. Come on
    Come on April 26 2016 06: 37
    +1
    In Germany, with 3800, a bachelor will have about 2000, and for a married man and also with children, 2500+ - about. Then 180 a month per child, from the very birth of at least 300 for another year, and if the wife worked, then half the salary. 3 bedroom apartment from 400-800. You can actually live, since prices are not much higher than in Russia. But there is also the infrastructure of roads, hospitals, etc. There is free medicine at the highest level for everyone. All residential premises are equipped with electricity, sewage and hot water, which always and uninterruptedly work.
  14. Come on
    Come on April 26 2016 06: 16
    0
    Do not forget the free medicine, legal security, the construction of infrastructure and much more in France, which remains to be achieved in the Russian Federation. Russians generally could not pay taxes if the economy was not dependent on sales of resources.
  15. Awaz
    Awaz April 26 2016 21: 08
    +1
    all you think is interesting. Why does no one ever take into account that these social payments in the region of 30 percent are deducted not from what is being handed out, but before that. That is, with an average official salary of 465 euros, in reality, before taxes, it amounted to 700 euros. It is worth recalling that for the EU, especially the southern countries and newly acquired, these are not bad grandmas. Further, for some reason, we forget that the course fell all the same two years ago. Prior to this, the salary of the average Russian was already pulling out 1500 euros, before taxes. This is generally a very normal salary for the EU, even in Germany. In Germany, social and income taxes go somewhere under 30 percent. But besides everything there are a lot of other taxes that also have to be paid, and these are not the taxes that are in the Russian Federation, when the tax for an apartment is around 1000 rubles a year. I have a friend in Germany who has a salary of 3-4 thousand euros, but for a living, like he blabbed it, he stays for a month in the region of 1000. He pays everything else for something. Moreover, we have approximately the same family housing and transport. With my salary, after paying all the required payments, I have about the same. Well, that is, it remained. The conversation was in the 13th year. At that time, my salary on hand was approximately 1500-1700 in Euros. Moreover, that he that I represent the same social stratum: highly skilled workers
  16. Boatsman_Palych
    Boatsman_Palych April 25 2016 14: 57
    +5
    I calculated and paid taxes. Just a trading company had to give 84% of what was earned, and production workers - up to 105%. And this is not a PROGRESSIVE system, but an ordinary one. It was introduced by American advisers to President Elzin. Guess once - for what purpose?
  17. Awaz
    Awaz April 27 2016 14: 29
    0
    you draw stamps here again. I myself was doing business in the 90s and I know the whole system with which it all started. I agree that the system is crap, but about 105 percent is from the fact that you are trying to deal with populism. There are really a lot of taxes and it’s real if all the numbers are added up, then you can count 105 percent, but these percentages are removed from a different base and in reality it turns out somewhere around 50-60 percent of what is earned goes into taxes. Well that was then.
    Personally, I believe that the system would be as fair as possible when enterprises pay minimum taxes, but the population should pay the maximum. But for this enterprise must be FORCED to pay good salaries to its employees. This would reduce the huge amount of unnecessary ballast of accountants and people would already pay where they want and in the most convenient way. This would allow people to control their grandmothers paid in taxes and be indignant when returns are not visible
  • goose
    goose April 26 2016 14: 47
    0
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Excuse me, who told you such nonsense? One of the largest in the world, you probably wanted to say

    Looking for someone. For banks - minimal (and also pay extra for being a banker), for trade - medium, for production and private individuals - unbearable.
  • Victor Demchenko
    Victor Demchenko April 25 2016 07: 57
    +7
    my dear! how naive you are! you first open an individual entrepreneur, and try to PAY ALL taxes, and then talk about "the lowest taxes in Russia"!
    no offense and most importantly:
    Do not know - do not write!
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir
      Vasilenko Vladimir April 25 2016 14: 34
      +1
      firstly, taxes in the Russian Federation are not the lowest, the conversation is that they are far from the highest
      secondly, why do you think that they write by not knowing
      and thirdly, what a poke manner
  • Awaz
    Awaz April 25 2016 20: 28
    +1
    Well, here you can argue. By themselves, the taxes that we pay in kind are really not very high, if we compare with most "civilized" countries and even in relation to the total income in percent, we pay much less, but in Russia there is a huge amount of indirect taxes, which in general are almost all nullify. Also, do not forget that we simply do not receive thirty percent of our salary, because the employer is our tax agent and pays for us from our salary.
  • ARES623
    ARES623 April 24 2016 20: 13
    +5
    To DMB_95 "For pensions and everything else, we pay heavy taxes from our poor salaries."
    At the expense of wretched salaries, I do not really agree, although I see in my own circle - they do. The tax is 13%, despite the fact that medical insurance is just for nothing, I think it's not great. I personally sympathize with you, I myself rode in a wheelchair for several weeks without predictions ... For weapons: if two samples were successfully tested, and the military design specifications are usually quite high for design, then both of them are approximately equal in the sum of their characteristics. During the tests, the samples are checked according to the parameters by an order of magnitude greater than that specified in the NSD. It takes into account almost everything even the most unthinkable. Therefore, a cheaper option will be no less suitable for operation than an expensive one. In addition, the more expensive, as a rule, also has a much more expensive life cycle. Given the mass production of small arms, including mobilization prospects, a penny difference in cost is turning into a serious savings. Theft, salaries, tops of various calibers, etc. This article is not covered, and a reference to these components of life is usually only a reflection of rumors, as one woman at the entrance said. We love to tell passions without knowing a specific essence. Do you know for sure? Tell the prosecutor. There is nothing to tell the prosecutor, sniff in two holes and do not spread the rumors. There are many who want 100 Armats, dozens of aircraft carriers, and they themselves, go, they can’t buy any extra processed cheese. There is really no money in the country. Who is not yet clear?
    1. Mikhalychch
      Mikhalychch April 25 2016 03: 09
      -8
      And where will the money for the National Guard come from?
  • aksakal
    aksakal April 24 2016 21: 16
    +1
    Quote: DMB_95
    For pensions and everything else, we pay heavy taxes from our poor salaries. In addition to taxes from citizens, the state has huge state corporations, where "top managers like" set their own salaries, and even stupidly steal and pay the same 13% of taxes. Even schoolchildren know about the widespread cutting of budget money at all levels. These are the sources of financing for the defense industry, not maternity capital.
    - By the way, the woman who heads the State Duma's Audit Chamber recently complained that the scale of theft is such that she is dejected and that she gives up, she just does not know how to deal with this !! am She wants to leave this post, for this work reminds her of the fight against windmills. And the numbers are staggering - if everything had been stolen at the right time, when oil prices started to drop from a hundred bucks per barrel, returned to the budget, then the Russians would not even notice a drop in oil prices by almost five times !!!! This is how much they steal! am So here’s a hint how to deal with this - only by executions !!!
    1. Cat man null
      Cat man null April 25 2016 04: 34
      +1
      Quote: aksakal
      By the way, the woman who heads the Accounts Chamber

      - Golikova, probably?

      Quote: aksakal
      heads the State Duma Accounts Chamber

      - there is no "Accounts Chamber of the State Duma" in nature. There is one in the Russian Federation, there are control and accounting chambers in regions, cities and regions of the Russian Federation ..

      Duc, this:

      - who complained?
      - a reference, and with numbers, numbers so that?

      And then another pile on the rotator so far turned out request
      1. alexej123
        alexej123 April 25 2016 15: 26
        0
        The forumchanin beguiled - the Chairman of the Accounts Chamber is approved by the State Duma.
    2. DMB_95
      DMB_95 April 25 2016 10: 32
      +1
      Quote: aksakal
      Quote: DMB_95
      For pensions and everything else, we pay heavy taxes from our poor salaries. In addition to taxes from citizens, the state has huge state corporations, where "top managers like" set their own salaries, and even stupidly steal and pay the same 13% of taxes. Even schoolchildren know about the widespread cutting of budget money at all levels. These are the sources of financing for the defense industry, not maternity capital.
      - By the way, the woman who heads the State Duma's Audit Chamber recently complained that the scale of theft is such that she is dejected and that she gives up, she just does not know how to deal with this !! am She wants to leave this post, for this work reminds her of the fight against windmills. And the numbers are staggering - if everything had been stolen at the right time, when oil prices started to drop from a hundred bucks per barrel, returned to the budget, then the Russians would not even notice a drop in oil prices by almost five times !!!! This is how much they steal! am So here’s a hint how to deal with this - only by executions !!!

      But I do not mind the executions. The head of the joint venture, Golikova and her husband Khristenko (the former Minister of Industry) had to be shot eight years ago.
      1. Vasilenko Vladimir
        Vasilenko Vladimir April 25 2016 11: 42
        +1
        and not only them
        as soon as Khrushchev took away the right from the "office" to supervise the party members, everything began

        in short need Palych and the NKVD
    3. goose
      goose April 26 2016 15: 02
      0
      Quote: aksakal
      hint how to deal with this - only by executions !!!

      First you need to introduce full confiscation and full reporting on purchases.
  • Cruel beaver
    Cruel beaver April 24 2016 16: 21
    +8
    A country that does not feed its army will feed a stranger ... (Napoleon Bonopart)
    I can not vouch for verbatim but the meaning is ...
    1. tpwr
      tpwr April 24 2016 18: 14
      -9
      Quote: Angry Beaver
      (Napoleon Bonopart)

      Well, one loser blurted out something not very smart, why repeat after him?
      1. Olkass
        Olkass April 24 2016 23: 51
        +2
        Quote: tpwr
        Quote: Angry Beaver
        (Napoleon Bonopart)

        Well, one loser blurted out something not very smart, why repeat after him?

        You’ll be there, in the USA, with GMOs, that’s easier.
        Gray matter turns to white.
        Well, Bonya is a loser. And you? Is grayness mediocre?
        This man knew what he was saying.
        1. tpwr
          tpwr April 24 2016 23: 57
          -2
          Quote: Olkass
          Gray matter turns to white.

          Judge by yourself? Already completely turned? It seems like that.
          Quote: Olkass
          And you? Is grayness mediocre?

          And again on my own? And again it seems.
          What are you all about yourself, but about yourself?
          Quote: Olkass
          This man knew what he was saying.

          Oh yeah. He was a big "expert". I just finished something bad. And this does not look like an expert at all. Only for people like you can still be a guide. Losers also need their idols.
  • Suhov
    Suhov April 24 2016 23: 04
    +7
    Quote: ARES623
    ARES623 Today, 14:45 ↑
    Quote: DMB_95
    I don’t like the criterion - which is cheaper, we’ll take it.
    But I like to receive retirement, child benefits, maternity capital, many budget items related to social programs. I think we must proceed from reasonable sufficiency.

    That's why it always happens that way, choose between bad and bad?
    Where it comes from: take what’s cheaper.
    This is fundamentally wrong even from the point of view of an accountant.
    If To fight not by numbers, but by skill, (remember where?) then
    weapon value increase, which is objectively manifested with an increase in its quality, can be compensated by reducing its required amount.
    In other words, to solve the same problems for the same money, but at the same time also take care of people, since fewer fighters can be dispensed with. hi
  • yehat
    yehat April 26 2016 09: 10
    +1
    do you think what you're saying This sniper rifle has huge price tags, and the extra charge on the machine is 10-15 tr. - about this scale. This is a minuscule in comparison with the social network! And how much is the death of one soldier due to the fact that his weapon was worse? And how much does it cost to export an excellent sample of small arms?
    what a wretched reasoning about saving
    better advise Chubais to return 17 billion from losses.
  • Archon
    Archon April 26 2016 16: 17
    0
    if they don’t steal, it’s enough for everything and still remains.
  • alexmach
    alexmach April 24 2016 15: 25
    +14
    After all, we are talking about choosing a machine gun that will be armed with every soldier to whom he is assigned according to the state


    Relax. How many AK-74 are there in the warehouses? 7 million? here they will be armed is the most serviceman. Maybe with all sorts of modernization dodgers, maybe without
    1. DMB_95
      DMB_95 April 24 2016 15: 56
      +7
      And it is necessary to replace AK-74 in warehouses with more modern samples. Also with body kits. I came to urgency with a discharge in bullet shooting and trained at school what I am now taught at the KMB. Modern guys who can do nothing with the old AK will have to puff for a long time.
      1. alexmach
        alexmach April 24 2016 20: 22
        +2
        And it is necessary to replace AK-74 in warehouses with more modern samples.


        All those millions that lie there on a rainy day? Is that really necessary? maybe better in the T-50 or Kurgan, or TU-160 invest

        I came to urgency with a discharge in bullet shooting and trained at school what I am now taught at the KMB. Modern guys who can do nothing with the old AK will have to puff for a long time.


        So it seems that KMB is for this. Do you think it is possible in real time to prepare a decent shooter with AK-74?
        1. tolancop
          tolancop April 24 2016 21: 00
          +4
          Is it possible in real time to prepare a decent shooter with AK-74. Surely you can. The question is how to cook. And there is no need to cook everyone. Only those for whom the machine is the main weapon.
          Why prepare a sniper from a rocket launcher? No reason. Enough to give an idea of ​​the shooting and that's enough. Sailors, pilots, tankmen, signalmen ..... The list is long.
          During my service in the USSR, this is exactly what they did. In my brigade, the limit of cartridges has not been shot in 10 years (there was no shooting range of its own, the youngsters were "shot" from the neighbors and that's it). And no one was bothered about this and the brigade did not lose its combat readiness. They did not know how to shoot from machine guns, but with rockets ... be healthy !!
          1. goose
            goose April 26 2016 15: 06
            +3
            Quote: tolancop
            but rockets ... be healthy

            80% of the personnel during WWII were killed by mortars. The rifleman, who was already very advanced at that time, accounted for only 4%. Yes, even the Mosin carbine, the main thing is that the shells should be and the headquarters with intelligence work.
            1. tolancop
              tolancop April 26 2016 18: 31
              0
              It is doubtful ... Whose calculations? And to which theater are they?
            2. alexmach
              alexmach April 26 2016 22: 26
              +1
              What is doubtful? I heard another figure of 70% of the losses from the _artillery_ during the First World War.

              My grandfather lost a leg from the fall of a shell nearby.
            3. BarakHuseynovich
              BarakHuseynovich April 27 2016 01: 38
              0
              In PMV from chemistry
            4. BarakHuseynovich
              BarakHuseynovich April 27 2016 01: 38
              0
              In PMV from chemistry
        2. Droid
          Droid 20 May 2016 20: 57
          0
          Enlighten ...
    2. alexej123
      alexej123 April 25 2016 15: 52
      +8
      Can. In the technical school, in the SOVIET technical school, the teacher was on NVP, Eduard Nikolaevich, as I remember now. A retired colonel, a former teacher of fire training at a military school in Omsk. He said that you can really prepare a good shooter in a short time. He taught us on "small children". In the army, the first firing at the KMB, from the AK-74, knocked out 29 points out of three shots on his instructions. And in the future, on fire in the army, at least daytime shooting, at least nighttime - it was "excellent", and he shot not only from his AK-74S. There is only one advice - there must be a pro in every case. Life brought you with such, be grateful to her and to them for the "coffin of life". Which is what I'm doing.
  • Großer feldherr
    Großer feldherr April 24 2016 15: 42
    +1
    We already have such an assault rifle — AKM, at 21 small arms have other priorities — accuracy, flatness, the ability to keep the target on the gun while firing.
  • Pirogov
    Pirogov April 24 2016 18: 37
    +5
    Quote: DMB_95
    I don’t like the criterion - which is cheaper, we’ll take it. After all, we are talking about choosing an assault rifle with which each soldier will be armed, to whom he is assigned on a state basis. A mobilization reserve must also be created. An automatic machine should be selected, first of all the best in terms of performance characteristics, reliability, maintainability. It should be an effective weapon in the hands of any recruit or reservist. Price, of course, matters, but not decisive.

    I fully support you, if you take a cheap machine gun, then what's the point? Change the proven Kalash for awl.
    1. goose
      goose April 26 2016 15: 08
      +1
      Quote: Pirogov
      I fully support you, if you take a cheap machine gun, then what's the point? Change the proven Kalash for awl.

      Cheap does not mean effective. I like the cost-effectiveness criterion. Not always cheap weapons fit into this criterion.
  • snc
    snc April 25 2016 10: 54
    +2
    For reservists, we have old Kalash for two world wars in warehouses ...
  • Svidetel 45
    Svidetel 45 April 25 2016 21: 47
    -1
    But no, the price also matters, it is necessary to evaluate the machines from the ratio "price-quality" automatic, in extreme cases, you can arm special forces, and for a soldier of linear units, these two centimeters will not make any difference, since his shooting training will not allow using the higher accuracy of a more expensive model. Moreover, we cannot boast of extra money in the budget.
  • 13 warrior
    13 warrior April 24 2016 19: 47
    +3
    Again, they are optimized until the resource is reduced, as happened with the AK-74M
  • bravo-fab
    bravo-fab April 25 2016 20: 39
    0
    The US marine told me once about their rifle, they say the reliability of their AR system is less, I asked why not get more reliable modern ones or buy a license from the Germans, or don’t put a system under AK, the 1-army always buys the most cheap , 2-like so, not his own is not American. We will also have, AEK is too fashionable and expensive, will run with the millionth AK reincarnation of 47 years. zen zen!
  • poquello
    poquello April 24 2016 12: 51
    +5
    Quote: Darkmor
    It would be if both developers cooperated and based on these 2 machines would create one - combining all the best ...

    What is it like? with balancer or light?
  • ava09
    ava09 April 24 2016 13: 01
    +12
    Quote: Darkmor
    It would be if both developers cooperated and based on these 2 machines would create one - combining all the best ...

    "Universal" is not synonymous with "good". For different tasks, a differentiated approach is needed, otherwise you can get to "From a cannon to sparrows" or something similar. In the desire of the Ministry of Defense to buy the one that turns out to be cheaper, one can see "universalism". And the infantry does not fit an underwater reconnaissance machine gun, and vice versa, I exaggerate of course. The "warrior" equipment is not only for motorized riflemen, but also for special forces. And the weapon for them is better than the one that is best suited for solving their tasks.
    1. tpwr
      tpwr April 24 2016 18: 17
      +3
      Quote: ava09
      "Universal" is not synonymous with "good".

      And even more than that, most often it is a synonym for the concept of "bad for all individual positions."
  • tol100v
    tol100v April 24 2016 13: 06
    0
    Quote: Darkmor
    It would be if both developers cooperated and based on these 2 machines would create one - combining all the best ...

    It won’t work out that way. A third time a pseudo-developer will appear who will win the competition!
  • PKK
    PKK April 24 2016 14: 29
    +3
    New developments have recently been justified by the fact that young people learn to shoot from AK for a long time, such as needing a machine with low recoil and increased accuracy. Now they report that new heap machines will be given to special forces. Young people will still tame AK. Special forces will certainly be happy with new gadgets to go with them, but I think the fighters are so good at firing from standard assault rifles. And to the reliability of Kalash, everyone else is far away. There will probably be some kind of benefit.
  • PKK
    PKK April 24 2016 14: 45
    +4
    Somehow strange tests passed. It was necessary for the soldiers to give one machine gun and drive with it for 5 days in the mountains. Then give the second and again 5 days on the trails. The soldiers would immediately choose which machine is better.
    1. NEXUS
      NEXUS April 24 2016 16: 18
      +3
      Quote: PKK
      Somehow strange tests passed. It was necessary for the soldiers to give one machine gun and drive with it for 5 days in the mountains. Then give the second and again 5 days on the trails. The soldiers would immediately choose which machine is better.

      Do you think that they were not “run in” in Syria? I suppose that it was in Syria that they were tested.
      With regard to the machines themselves, AEK won the first competition, after which the AKs were sent for revision. The problem is that if they are adopted by AEK, then most likely the assembly lines in Izhevsk will be partially converted to assembly of carpet, which will obviously not suit Izhevchev. Kalashnikov Concern lobbying for a decision on adopting a new assault rifle for the army, which definitely cannot be called a good thing. One can’t but agree that the AK-12 is a good and reliable machine.
      1. alexmach
        alexmach April 24 2016 18: 15
        +3
        Do you think that they were not “run in” in Syria? I suppose that it was in Syria that they were tested.


        What is the test in Syria? What are you? Run in battles not accepted and not tested personal weapons? This is to risk the lives of soldiers. Haha need such a run-in on the blood.
        1. bravo-fab
          bravo-fab April 25 2016 20: 45
          0
          given to the Syrians for example. about AK-12 and AEK, they have been tested for a long time, AEK until the 12th still run in special units. AEK has long been in use, but not officially and massively. AK-12 there was no news about military use, but these 2 systems are reliable, and they do not add risk, this is not a plane.
        2. goose
          goose April 26 2016 15: 10
          0
          Quote: alexmach
          Haha need such a run-in on the blood.

          This is exactly what they usually do in all the armies of the world - they run in experimental weapons in one local unit in order to calculate the hours for the regulations, efficiency and cost of the cycle.
          1. alexmach
            alexmach April 26 2016 15: 36
            +1
            This is what they usually do in all the armies of the world - they run in experimental weapons in one local unit


            What are you saying? In all in all the armies of the world? Do all the armies in the world have experimental weapons? and local conflicts for its running-in also all have? Don't talk nonsense. There is such a thing as "mission critical systems". They differ from ordinary products by increased requirements for quality, an increase in these requirements is achieved due to the heavier and more stringent regulation of the verification processes of such systems (those same state tests). Before passing these tests, no sane person will use such systems on living people in peacetime. Situations like the Second World War are fundamentally different, there really everything was tested on living soldiers because it was different from another. But now it's not the Second World War. Why is he in Syria if the tasks there can be solved with the existing in service, proven means?
  • Blondy
    Blondy April 24 2016 16: 19
    +6
    Quote: Darkmor

    It would be nice if both developers cooperated and based on these 2 machines would create one - combining all the best ..

    Have you tried to cross with a hedgehog?
    1. cap
      cap April 24 2016 19: 20
      +2
      Quote: Blondy
      Quote: Darkmor

      It would be nice if both developers cooperated and based on these 2 machines would create one - combining all the best ..

      Have you tried to cross with a hedgehog?


      You are right there is no universal weapon in principle!
      And can not be.
      Squirrel and elephant are different prey, and from this we must proceed by choosing weapons for hunting.
      Question: Who is the prey?
      The second question is who is the hunter. Specialist or reservist.
      Putting a clever thing in the hands of a fool will not understand and will perish.
      A good hunter is a good weapon. A fool club.
  • Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy April 24 2016 19: 00
    +2
    Quote: Darkmor
    It would be if both developers cooperated and based on these 2 machines would create one - combining all the best ...

    And it would be even better to give the gun in the hands of those who go hunting with it, and not the "chiefs of the department." Then you get the "opinion".
  • Yarhann
    Yarhann April 25 2016 07: 24
    +2
    this and so two ideal machines cannot be realized in one - Ak will go to the AEK troops will go to the Ministry of Internal Affairs - I hope - well, or at least the security forces will be able to choose what they take
  • Alexez
    Alexez April 25 2016 08: 47
    +1
    Fundamentally not possible. Completely different machines.
    1. yehat
      yehat April 26 2016 10: 28
      +1
      those. how different ???
      cartridges are the same horns are conditionally the same
      similar stocks and overall layout
      they have a lot in common!
      although in my opinion, the AK-12 is simply wretched. Yes, they fixed the jambs, which 20 years ago had to be fixed, but the basis remained the same. And AEK is a real attempt to take a step forward.
      However, I do not understand the other - why there are no attempts to add world experience?
      Even the Chinese make attempts with Bullpap, have been releasing in Europe for a long time, the Israelis have taken a number of steps forward, having made the Tabor. Changing the standards for the manufacture of the barrel (tightening), changing the standards for the manufacture of cartridges, more active supply of sighting equipment, transparent and shortened shops, etc. etc. A huge field for improvements, but instead we are offered a slightly modified AK-12, the technical solutions of which were laid 70 years ago. Wake up, military! We don’t need an automatic machine, half of which comes with low-quality barrels! We do not need a machine gun from which we can actually fire up to 150-200m and only in very short bursts of 2-3 shots to get at least somehow. We do not need a machine with which it is difficult to turn around in the room because of its total length! We do not need an automatic machine, on which they bundle harnesses and fasten horns with electrical tape. We do not need a machine that requires an individual shooting! We need a modern complex.
  • tol100v
    tol100v April 24 2016 13: 03
    +12
    Quote: Proxima
    In a word, as at the races, they go "head to head"

    Sometimes you can listen to WISDOM: We are not rich enough to buy cheap things (in this case, machines)! Moreover, the difference in the price of these two "competitors" is so small that it can be simply neglected! And to supply only the Best!
    1. yehat
      yehat April 26 2016 10: 40
      0
      firstly, it is not clear why we should have only 1 automatic machine?
      for highlands you need a lighter caliber of 5.45, for the jungle - with a heavy bullet and resistant to pollution, for Europe you need good ballistics, convenient in the city
      In my opinion, you need to take a comprehensive set of products of some kind with agreed proportions. And if we accept only one, then we will have to make some truncated and bad modifications for different conditions.
      secondly, why is Kalash openly lobbying and no one is scratching it?
      The price of a weapon is undoubtedly important, but you need to somehow relate it to the price of a soldier. It is much more expensive.
      thirdly, it is necessary to discuss the possibilities of integration with the "warrior". As I understand it, in this light, the significance of the mass rises sharply.
      fourthly, what are the tests of firing at armored targets? What are the indicators of penetration and accuracy? I am sure that AEK wins sharply against Kalash at the rate of aimed fire.
      Finally, the army needs some kind of unified assault rifle under the pistol cartridge like the MP5 and some kind of unification with a new main assault rifle for parts and supplies. For example, butts, trims, optics.
  • Großer feldherr
    Großer feldherr April 24 2016 15: 35
    -8
    even on the march, these + -1 kg masses do not play a role, but the accuracy and the possibility of ADVANCED shooting with a burst would not hurt.
    It’s still not clear why the gunsmiths are shaking so much for the classic lineup, the same bulpap provides greater accuracy and better alignment ...
    1. Asadullah
      Asadullah April 24 2016 15: 48
      +14
      even on the march these + -1 kg of mass do not play a role


      laughing Gee-gee-gee, are you marching three hundred meters? You used to throw your dermo in bags, and it seems wings appeared ....
      1. Großer feldherr
        Großer feldherr April 24 2016 17: 42
        -6
        Quote: Asadullah
        Gee-gee-gee, are you marching three hundred meters?

        Petrosyan nervously smokes on the sidelines, a competitor, not otherwise — you will have a direct laugh.
        A competent commander will never load the fighters unnecessary, but apart from the BC, weapons, water and food (and what little else) you have nothing to take with you, if you take intelligence.
        The infantry / assault forces have equipment in general, the weight problem has not been a long time.
        1. Sarmat149
          Sarmat149 April 24 2016 18: 09
          +11
          You have never been on a march and do not know what it is.
          1. Großer feldherr
            Großer feldherr April 24 2016 18: 20
            -1
            I’m not a balabol, which I also wish for you.
          2. goose
            goose April 26 2016 15: 14
            0
            Quote: Sarmat149
            You have never been on a march and do not know what it is.

            Every kilogram is very felt. The difference between 25 and 15 is enormous.
            I don’t feel like taking extra water or a spare barrel for the march from the word at all.
        2. Asadullah
          Asadullah April 24 2016 18: 22
          +14
          A competent commander will never overload the fighters,


          Yes, waking you up, everyone is loaded according to their specialty. Loader, the second specialty of the specialist. And then, according to the task. I will calculate for you with an accuracy of a minute how much time will "eat" each pound of cargo. As for the rex worries, they specially dumped provisions, and for three days on the same glucose tablets with dp. Brown ones, from a nickle from the times of the USSR. Even won five to ten minutes saved lives. And the weapon, this is the main thing that you cannot throw off, you must return it in any condition. Hence the weight is archival. Certainly not to the detriment of other qualities.
        3. ARES623
          ARES623 April 24 2016 20: 33
          +6
          Quote: Großer Feldherr
          Petrosyan nervously smokes on the sidelines, a competitor, not otherwise — you will have a direct laugh.
          A competent commander will never load the fighters unnecessary, but apart from the BC, weapons, water and food (and what little else) you have nothing to take with you, if you take intelligence.
          The infantry / assault forces have equipment in general, the weight problem has not been a long time.

          In 1980, in the DRA, we paid dearly for the hope of the wheels, then the whole army to Murmansk inclusively studied on foot (ski) march. Your advice is an amateur look.
          1. bravo-fab
            bravo-fab April 25 2016 20: 50
            -1
            1980 and 2016, 36 years old, motorized infantry did not hear?
            1. ARES623
              ARES623 April 26 2016 13: 11
              0
              Quote: bravo-fab
              1980 and 2016, 36 years old, motorized infantry did not hear?

              I didn’t hear, I’ve been running back in it for more than ten years, having on the balance now 3 cars, then 15. You, you see, this motorized infantry only in "I Serve the Soviet Union" and saw, but are you trying to reason ?! Break away from your computer, go outside - the world is multifaceted ...
      2. cap
        cap April 24 2016 19: 24
        +4
        Quote: Asadullah
        even on the march these + -1 kg of mass do not play a role


        laughing Gee-gee-gee, are you marching three hundred meters? You used to throw your dermo in bags, and it seems wings appeared ....


        Take half a kilo in your pockets and let the "well-aimed shooter" run after 3 km. cross. laughingThen, with 3 more shots, it will hit the chest target.
      3. bravo-fab
        bravo-fab April 25 2016 20: 48
        -2
        WHAT FOR Nonsense. 1kg of mass doesn’t affect either! Now it’s not the 19th century to walk and not WWII. the entire infantry is transported, the 21st century is another concept of war. those specialists who are forced to walk secretly, they choose weapons depending on the situation. thinking shovel-brain disease.
        1. yehat
          yehat April 26 2016 10: 45
          +3
          infantry in a spherical vacuum can and only moves on wheels, but in reality infantry moves a lot on their own. And the more mobile it is, the better it survives and performs tasks.
    2. Proxima
      Proxima April 24 2016 16: 38
      +9
      Quote: Großer Feldherr
      even on the march these + -1 kg of mass do not play a role

      I bet you never took a march with a weapon or you wouldn't have written that. This "kilogram" you have to move by running for 25 kilometers, and this is a bunch of wasted kilojoules of your energy. You can just die like a driven horse. Why do you think the scouts in the Second World War took in search of "Sudaev" or the captured MP-40, although they were inferior to the PPSh in many respects (especially the "German") - for the same reason. About aiming with lighter weapons - I don't even stutter.
      1. Großer feldherr
        Großer feldherr April 24 2016 17: 50
        +1
        Quote: Proxima

        I bet you never made a march with a gun, otherwise you wouldn’t write that.

        Vo1: If you want to hide in money, write to the PM, I’ll support it, but for no reason, I don’t think I need to prove anything.
        V2: the same PPS is even heavier than the PPSh, and MP-40 was taken because of the impossibility of replenishing bk with Soviet cartridges in the rear of the enemy.
        Va3: it is easier for heavier weapons to maintain the line of sight when firing, less recoil momentum. Learn physics, sacrifice ehe.
        1. tpwr
          tpwr April 24 2016 18: 25
          0
          Quote: Großer Feldherr
          MP-40 was taken due to the impossibility of replenishing the BC with Soviet cartridges in the rear of the enemy.

          But what did the Germans do not take the Soviet PPSh into intelligence?
          And what, are German ammunition scattered across the front line and lying around everywhere? No, they still had to be obtained. And it was not easy to get them, MP40 was not very common. Therefore, they were taken because of the best TTX MP40.
          Quote: Großer Feldherr
          heavier weapons easier to maintain the line of sight when shooting, less recoil momentum

          This indicator is called "recoil energy".
          1. alexmach
            alexmach April 24 2016 20: 33
            +1
            But what did the Germans do not take the Soviet PPSh into intelligence?


            Wife's great-grandfather was an intelligence officer. 3 years went for the front line. PPSh did not take with him like PPS like any German underwear. Knives took homemade and nothing more. And they took homemade ones because they themselves knew what they needed
            1. tpwr
              tpwr April 24 2016 20: 47
              0
              Quote: alexmach
              PPSh did not take with him like PPS like any German underwear. Knives took homemade and nothing more.

              And this is your wife’s great-grandfather, who only went to intelligence with a makeshift knife, didn’t he learn an artistic whistle at the House of Culture?
            2. poquello
              poquello April 25 2016 00: 08
              +1
              Quote: alexmach
              Knives took homemade and nothing more.

              from the plastunas?
          2. poquello
            poquello April 25 2016 00: 05
            +1
            Quote: tpwr
            Therefore, they were taken because of the best TTX MP40.

            the word is what a magical "performance characteristics" - dimensions are all its best performance characteristics, EVERYTHING
            1. tpwr
              tpwr April 25 2016 00: 14
              0
              Quote: poquello
              what a magic word "TTX"

              It is not easy to write "consumer properties". By and large, these are the murder weapons, not the kitchen coffee grinder.
              1. poquello
                poquello April 25 2016 00: 49
                +1
                Quote: tpwr
                Quote: poquello
                what a magic word "TTX"

                It is not easy to write "consumer properties". By and large, these are the murder weapons, not the kitchen coffee grinder.

                Yes, as you like, write when a person asks to take a picture of him with a group, he is offered to stand in a semicircle.
                In addition to compactness, the mp40 has nothing, another reason is the sound of the queue, so as not to frighten the Fritz, but this would not be from the best performance characteristics.
            2. DMB_95
              DMB_95 April 25 2016 11: 56
              +2
              PPS-43 began to produce in the besieged Leningrad. Therefore, its metal consumption is lower, and manufacturability, simplicity of design made it possible to produce faculty at any mechanical plant with minimal labor. At the same time, in terms of weight, compactness and effective firing range, PPS is superior to MR-40.
              1. yehat
                yehat April 26 2016 10: 53
                +1
                an important point is the rate of fire. at PPP it is lower, which is an advantage in comparison with PPP.
        2. Proxima
          Proxima April 24 2016 19: 04
          +9
          Quote: Großer Feldherr
          Learn physics, sacrifice ehe.

          Where do you come from so defective ?! You don't even want to answer, just waste your time. Well, understand at least a little on the topic of the question! What makes you think that PPS is heavier than PPSh? I have only one option, you "weighed" the PPP with the equipped magazine, but the PCA - no. Even so, the difference is only 70 grams. Then tear off the butt from the PPSh - it will weigh even less, why waste time on trifles. And about the fact that the scouts took the MP-40 due to the possibility of filling the stores with trophy cartridges, it indicates that you are completely inadequate.
          1. goose
            goose April 26 2016 15: 18
            +3
            Quote: Proxima
            filling stores with captured cartridges - indicates that you are completely inadequate

            Try to find a fritz with MP-40 or 38 if they all went to the Mausers without exception.
        3. The comment was deleted.
        4. poquello
          poquello April 24 2016 23: 58
          +4
          Quote: Großer Feldherr
          the same faculty is even heavier than the faculty

          PPS43 Weight: 3,67 kg charged, 3,04 kg empty
          PPSh41 3,63 kg without magazine,
          Well, see the year of release, they won’t take a new one in vain
          Quote: Großer Feldherr
          : heavier weapons easier to maintain the line of sight when shooting, less recoil momentum.

          yes, with some reservations but not in the case of PCA
        5. Havoc
          Havoc April 25 2016 00: 13
          +3
          Quote: Großer Feldherr
          Wo2: the same faculty is even heavier than the faculty


          No need to write nonsense.
        6. yehat
          yehat April 26 2016 10: 50
          0
          accounting for recoil momentum - now a good weapon should minimize these concerns
          the same goes for aiming.
          Another thing is that overweight should give some real advantages - optics, rate of fire, thermal imaging or additional BC. Moreover, these advantages are not always justified and sometimes it’s easier to take not even a Kalash, but some kind of compact pistol or silent machine gun.
      2. tpwr
        tpwr April 24 2016 18: 22
        -8
        Quote: Proxima
        why the scouts in the Second World War took in search of "Sudaev" or the captured MP-40, although they were inferior to the PPSh in many respects (especially the "German") - for the same reason.

        That's precisely because the "German" was better, that's why they took him.
        And no Sudaevs, either.
    3. yehat
      yehat April 26 2016 10: 41
      +1
      try to cross 1 km with +5 kilogram! 1 kg is a few horns of cartridges or a grenade launcher. in the mountains is critical.
      Another thing is that AEK is not a kilogram heavier.
  • Asadullah
    Asadullah April 24 2016 15: 42
    +1
    These are truly WELCOME AUTOMATIC MACHINES.


    Who shot? How are you feeling? And then I still will not have the opportunity to try soon.
    1. bravo-fab
      bravo-fab April 25 2016 20: 52
      0
      give visas to the Airborne Forces of the Russian Federation, then there will be an opportunity
  • tpwr
    tpwr April 24 2016 17: 57
    -7
    Quote: Proxima
    Another thing is important: OUR WEAPONS, ALWAYS, GOOD FELLOWS!

    May be, yours gunsmiths and worthy of such praise. But not all such fellows as yours gunsmiths.
    In the late 60s, after receiving the results of field tests of M16A1 in Vietnam, the USSR rushed to develop its own analogue of this device. Moreover, an erroneous decision was immediately made based on the AK mechanism. Why is it wrong? Because AK, this is a weapon with completely different performance characteristics and in general is completely different. Basically.
    But since there were practically no other efficient automation mechanisms in the USSR (let’s omit the question of where it came from in the country, which had not created anything adequate in this area either before or after), it was decided to be based on what is.
    Then the shoals of this "only correct mechanism" climbed. So, the AK was designed to conduct aimed automatic fire at a range of about 100-150 m. And to achieve normal accuracy of aimed automatic fire from the AK-74 at a distance of 400 m, it was necessary to accurately balance the recoil impulse of at least 5,0 kgm / s. Those. nothing less was impossible. But the mechanism of the self-loading (semi-automatic), in its essence, the AK did not allow this.
    The question arose, what to do? Or change the mechanism and get the theoretical opportunity to make a normal army automatic rifle. Or leave the mechanism, but get another ersatz of army weapons. Yes, ersatz is relatively good. But still ersatz.
    They chose a tit in their hands, i.e. the cartridge fell victim to compromise. It was weakened to the point where, at a distance of 400 m, it was still possible to get somewhere automatically automatically by fire. In this case, the recoil momentum of the AK-74 is 4,6 kgm / s (DE 1377 J). And even RPK-74 4,8 kgm / s. But as we remember, to get a full-fledged army automatic rifle, you need at least 5,0 kgm / s. Therefore, an assault (weakened army) automatic rifle was obtained. And she re-equipped the SA. In exchange for AKM, i.e. self-loading assault rifle with the possibility of automatic fire. Progress is actually evident, but the full-fledged army weapons of the SA have not yet received again.
    What is happening now? Now they are trying to bring the accuracy of automatic aimed fire to the level of M16A2. Oh, how it really works out there, I'm not in the know. But it’s already bad that you don’t hear anything that they are testing an assault rifle with a barrel extended to 500-510 mm and a bullet energy of the order of 1500 J (recoil momentum 4,74 kgm / s). This would make it possible to obtain, if not an automatic army rifle, then at least such a rifle minus. But there is no talk on this subject. And that means that with the final balancing of the old recoil impulse of 4,6 kgm / s, in spite of the victorious reports, apparently not everything is going smoothly.
    Therefore, I would wait with an assessment of the work of gunsmiths. That's when they balance the recoil momentum of 4,74 kgm / s on a new machine with an extended barrel, then they can be REALLY congratulated.
    And more than an army automatic rifle minus the 5,45x39 mm dohlopatron not to squeeze. The heavy legacy of the Soviet regime, which is very expensive to change.
    For reference, in M16A2, which, as everyone in Runet has long and firmly known, completely sucks, the recoil momentum of 5,28 kgm / s is balanced. In addition, the energy of her bullet 1738 J. That's how the numbers look like a modern full-fledged automatic army rifle. And even the minimum automatic army rifle of the sample of the 60s of the last century (M16A1) looks like this: a recoil momentum of 5,02 kgm / s, a bullet energy of 1692 J.
    1. Massik
      Massik April 24 2016 18: 19
      +4
      Quote: tpwr
      but the SA’s full-fledged army weapons once again did not receive.
      Present us at least one example, you are our many-sided, where and which army received "full-fledged army weapons"?
    2. kapitan92
      kapitan92 April 24 2016 21: 11
      +7
      Quote: tpwr
      Maybe your armourers are worthy of such praise. But not all such fellows as your gunsmiths.
      In the late 60s, after receiving the results of field tests of M16A1 in Vietnam, the USSR rushed to develop its own analogue of this device.

      By and large, the entire history of the development and production of small arms in the world for the past 60 years is the story of the confrontation between the Kalashnikov assault rifle and the American automatic rifle M16 (AR15) Eugene Stoner. Modifications of these two types of weapons have become the most popular on our planet. The ancestor of the AK series - AK-47, was adopted by the Soviet Union in 1949. Colt, the first batch of 1 AR15 rifles, which had bought the rights to manufacture these rifles from Fairchild Corporation by that time, and where Stoner had already moved, sold to the American Agency for the Study of Promising Projects (DARPA) in early summer 1962. Technical characteristics of the M16A1 were better than both the AK-47 and the AKM (developed in 1959). So, for example, the direct rifle range on the chest figure of an American rifle was 1,2 times greater than that of a Soviet machine gun, and it was 1,5 times superior to it in accuracy of fire, while having a 1,5 times less recoil momentum . At the same time, with an equal mass of equipment, the American marine could take 1,7 times more rounds of ammunition than his opponent with AKM. However, when it came to the direct use of both types of these weapons in combat - in the jungle of South Vietnam, all the technical "excellence" of the M16 has vanished, and The stunning reliability of Mikhail Kalashnikov's product came to the fore. “I admit, I personally would prefer your weapon in battle. I happened to fight in Vietnam, to command a unit there. And I really wanted to have a machine gun of your design as a personal weapon. One circumstance stopped - he has a different pace and shooting sound than M16. And if I had fired fire from him, my soldiers would open fire on me myself, believing that the enemy was next to me, ”General Coffield said. “In 1965, the scale of the war in Vietnam expanded. American troops poured into the jungle and problems began with the M16. "The rifle stuck with frightening regularity and as a result, young soldiers died," - confirms these words, the American television channel Discovery, putting the "incredibly tenacious and hardy" AK-47 in first place in the ranking of the ten best examples of small arms of the 20th century (American TV men put the M16 rifle in second place). “If I needed to train an American soldier in combat to disassemble, clean and maintain a Kalashnikov assault rifle, I would do this in four hours. It would take me a week for the M16 rifle. That's it ... ”says Dr William Atwater from the US Army Weapons and Ammunition Museum.
      Over the past 50 years, such "competitions" between the modifications of the AK and M16 took place regularly. And wherever it came to the use of weapons in real, combat conditions, Kalashnikov showed an undeniable advantage. That is why, obviously, Kalashnikov assault rifles in the world over the past 60 years, more than 70 million units have been produced, and the M16 is four times less.
      1. tpwr
        tpwr April 24 2016 22: 05
        -4
        Quote: kapitan92
        this is the story of the confrontation of the Kalashnikov assault rifle

        The Kalashnikov assault rifle does not exist. There is AK / AK-47 / AKM - that's one thing. There is an AK-74, which is completely different. Yes, there is continuity in the mechanism (unfortunately). Yes, there is continuity in appearance. But the weapons are completely different. And to speak of AK and AK-74 as something united is at least inappropriate. And certainly not at all professional.
        Quote: kapitan92
        Technical characteristics of the M16A1 were better than both the AK-47 and the AKM (developed in 1959)

        Now you are comparing incomparable things, weapons of different categories. Of course, the M16A1 is better FOR ALL PARAMETERS. Even the penetrating ability of a bullet is something that supporters of a cartridge of 7.62x39 mm usually press on, and then M16A1 is better.
        Quote: kapitan92
        However, when it came to the direct use of both types of these weapons in combat conditions - in the jungles of South Vietnam, all the technical "excellence" of the M16 vanished, and the stunning reliability of Mikhail Kalashnikov's product came to the fore.

        The good thing about fables is that they are easily and easily refuted. It was on the basis of the results of "field tests" in Vietnam that the USSR developed and adopted the AK-74. And the weapon on the cartridge 7,62x39 mm, which you praise so much, he removed from production, gradually removed it from service and gave it to "friends" for kissing the gums of "dear Leonid Ilyich". Doesn't this fact matter to you? So you will post me all sorts of murzilki with links to incomprehensible generals, admirals and incomprehensible TV channels?
        Quote: kapitan92
        Over the past 50 years, such "competitions" between the modifications of the AK and M16 took place regularly.

        There is no such competition in principle. And even more so, 50 years. Weapons more or less similar to each other are the AK-74 and M16. Therefore, the "competition" is at most 40 years old. But even here there can be no competition, because the M16 (even the first M16A1) is a full-fledged army automatic rifle. And the AK-74 is an assault (weakened army) automatic rifle (see reasons above). Therefore, it is inappropriate to compare them, it's like comparing a lorry and a three-ton, who will take more. In addition, the AK-74 has problems with balancing (this is the topic of the article above). Those. there is no subject for dispute at all. Basically.
        Yes, and such a topic exists only in RuNet, on the Internet as a whole, everything has long been put on the shelves and everything has been clear to everyone for a long time.
        As for “reliability”, there is no such topic either. All army weapons, from pistols to ballistic missiles, are reliable. And if it is suddenly not reliable, then this is not army weapons. And a country that allows itself to arm troops with such “weapons” is not a country, but a booth.
        1. kapitan92
          kapitan92 April 24 2016 22: 55
          +6
          Quote: tpwr
          The Kalashnikov assault rifle does not exist. There is AK / AK-47 / AKM - that's one thing. There is an AK-74, which is completely different.

          Brilliant conclusion! If you look at the posts, it was about the use of AK, AKM, M16A1 in Vietnam. About "completely different" AK 74; there was no speech.
          Quote: tpwr
          As for “reliability”, there is no such topic either. All army weapons, from pistols to ballistic missiles, are reliable. And if it is suddenly not reliable, then this is not army weapons. And a country that allows itself to arm troops with such “weapons” is not a country, but a booth.

          The topic may or may not be, but there is a fantastic reliability of "Kalashnikov" - simplicity of construction and disassembly of the mechanism, which has practically no screw or threaded connections; compactness; convenient location of the firing mode switch lever; ingeniously simple shutter device (suspended shutter); short locking knot; preliminary start-off of the cartridge case after the shot, excluding refusal when extracting the spent cartridge case; immunity to pollution; trouble-free use in any climatic conditions. The Americans lost 58 thousand killed and more than 150 thousand wounded in the jungles of Vietnam, and Soviet small arms helped to win the victory.



          What wars did the States win with their "super advanced" M16A1 rifle ???
          Quote: tpwr
          There is no such competition in principle.

          The competition in the field of creating small arms was, is and will be! Se la vie!
          1. tpwr
            tpwr April 24 2016 23: 25
            -4
            Quote: kapitan92
            If you look at the posts, it was about using AK, AKM, M16A1 in Vietnam.

            You can also add PM, TT, PPSh and DShK to this list. Well, for complete surroundings.
            There was nothing to compare in Vietnam. There was no similar weapon there. Well, besides, maybe the very DShK. But this is another area.
            AKM is not an analogue of M16A1. And the analogue of M14, is also not, although it is closer to it than to M16A1. Set comparable things, and not just what comes to hand.
            Quote: kapitan92
            Brilliant conclusion!

            Brilliant, not brilliant, and most importantly true. It is necessary to clearly separate the weapon on the cartridge 7,62x39 mm from the weapon on the cartridge 5,45x39 mm. This is a different weapon.
            Quote: kapitan92
            About "completely different" AK 74; there was no speech.

            Then M16A1 is not worth it.
            Quote: kapitan92
            but there is a fantastic reliability of "Kalashnikov"

            There is none of this. The usual army sample. All normal military weapons are just as "fantastically reliable". Those. just reliable, that's all.
            And the "fantastic reliability of the AK" is fiction. AK has no other advantages (AK-47 / AKM is generally a disgrace and a complete failure). So they have invented an "undeniable advantage". Which doesn't really exist. Myth.
            Quote: kapitan92
            And the victory was won by Soviet small arms

            You recall what weapons the USSR won in 1945? And he won too, you won’t deny it?
            Quote: kapitan92
            What wars did the States win with their "super advanced" M16A1 rifle ???

            It's funny. No, really funny. Sandbox-level reasoning.
            Quote: kapitan92
            The competition in the field of creating small arms was, is and will be! Se la vie!

            Well, does anyone argue with this? But while the competition in the field of creating modern automatic army rifles is conducted exclusively on a 5,56 × 45 mm NATO cartridge. Belgians, Germans, Americans. Many are involved. Weapons on a 5,45x39 mm cartridge are not a competitor to them (see problems above). And the weapons on the Chinese cartridge 5,8x42 mm, too.
            1. poquello
              poquello April 25 2016 01: 05
              +2
              Quote: tpwr
              There was nothing to compare in Vietnam. There was no similar weapon there.

              it wasn’t necessary there, and the US Army threw in the most tomatoes, the Kalash and SCS were quite happy with the Vietnamese, the latter is now popular in the USA, muzzle 2100, and Kalash is definitely more promising to jump out of Zindan
              1. goose
                goose April 26 2016 15: 21
                0
                Quote: poquello
                Kalash and SCS were quite happy with the Vietnamese, the latter is now popular in the USA, the muzzle is 2100, and Kalash is definitely more promising to jump out of Zindan

                SCS suited them more, nevertheless Kalashnikov was heavy and the first hit from SCS was easier to make at a distance of> 50m.
          2. alexej123
            alexej123 April 25 2016 16: 05
            +1
            Do not get fooled by him - different nicknames - "vvp", then "vv2". And the "core" of his instructions is always the same - there is a machine gun, there is an automatic or an assault rifle, different things.
            1. poquello
              poquello April 25 2016 20: 41
              0
              Quote: alexej123
              Do not get fooled by him - different nicknames - "vvp", then "vv2". And the "core" of his instructions is always the same - there is a machine gun, there is an automatic or an assault rifle, different things.

              yes just everything - every machine is better suited for its task, what task does the m16 h.z.
      2. tpwr
        tpwr April 24 2016 22: 05
        -7
        Quote: kapitan92
        American television set

        And who are these "TV men"? How is their opinion different from the opinion of a bum from the station? Nothing. Even a homeless person can be a gunsmith in the past. Therefore, his opinion is potentially more valuable.
        Quote: kapitan92
        says Dr William Atwater from the US Army Weapons and Ammunition Museum

        No, well, that's right, we need to collect the opinions of all muddy tramps. The main thing is that they are "in the right stream."
        Quote: kapitan92
        And wherever it came to the use of weapons in real, combat conditions, Kalashnikov showed an undeniable advantage

        Complete nonsense. And again, only in RuNet known.
        Quote: kapitan92
        That is why, obviously, more than 60 million units have been produced in the world over the past 70 years, and M16 - four times less.

        Well yes. Only now M16 is being sold all over the world for real money, and one crazy country spanked an unimaginable amount of AK, and then distributed it all over the world to "friends" for "promises of eternal friendship."
        By the way, these "spankings" are all at our expense. Those. the people in the USSR suffered hardships, “strengthened their defenses,” and then it turned out in vain. Well, the weapon on the 7,62x39 mm cartridge turned out to be a fig, what can you do. We were wrong. I had to distribute. It would be better to sleep on the stove, damn it. For the same salaries. There would be less damage.
        1. kapitan92
          kapitan92 April 24 2016 22: 58
          +5
          Quote: tpwr
          Well yes. Only now M16 is being sold all over the world for real money, and one crazy country spanked an unimaginable amount of AK, and then distributed it all over the world to "friends" for "promises of eternal friendship."
          By the way, these "spankings" are all at our expense. Those. the people in the USSR suffered hardships, “strengthened their defenses,” and then it turned out in vain. Well, the weapon on the 7,62x39 mm cartridge turned out to be a fig, what can you do. We were wrong. I had to distribute. It would be better to sleep on the stove, damn it. For the same salaries. There would be less damage.

          You are talking nonsense! hi
          1. tpwr
            tpwr April 24 2016 23: 07
            -3
            Quote: kapitan92
            You are talking nonsense!

            Of course. You have nothing to object to this. I mean, in general.
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. Proxima
            Proxima April 25 2016 00: 46
            +6
            Quote: kapitan92

            You are talking nonsense! hi

            Do not waste your time on this troll. A mile away you can see - a mentally ill person. Today he registered under tpwr dropped 20 posts, tomorrow he will be some kind of vpt, etc. I went over his posts - this is sheer necrophilia. I want to bleat from such writing. He calls white black, black - red, and he cites "arguments" and sophisticated tricks designed for an opponent with an underdeveloped intellect; he probably judges people by himself. All this is useless ..
        2. MMX
          MMX April 25 2016 04: 48
          +3
          Quote: tpwr
          Quote: kapitan92
          American television set

          And who are these "TV men"? How is their opinion different from the opinion of a bum from the station? Nothing. Even a homeless person can be a gunsmith in the past. Therefore, his opinion is potentially more valuable.
          Quote: kapitan92
          says Dr William Atwater from the US Army Weapons and Ammunition Museum

          No, well, that's right, we need to collect the opinions of all muddy tramps. The main thing is that they are "in the right stream."
          Quote: kapitan92
          And wherever it came to the use of weapons in real, combat conditions, Kalashnikov showed an undeniable advantage

          Complete nonsense. And again, only in RuNet known.
          Quote: kapitan92
          That is why, obviously, more than 60 million units have been produced in the world over the past 70 years, and M16 - four times less.

          Well yes. Only now M16 is being sold all over the world for real money, and one crazy country spanked an unimaginable amount of AK, and then distributed it all over the world to "friends" for "promises of eternal friendship."
          By the way, these "spankings" are all at our expense. Those. the people in the USSR suffered hardships, “strengthened their defenses,” and then it turned out in vain. Well, the weapon on the 7,62x39 mm cartridge turned out to be a fig, what can you do. We were wrong. I had to distribute. It would be better to sleep on the stove, damn it. For the same salaries. There would be less damage.



          Oh, again it got out here, with its knowledge from children's coloring. Did you turn on the Internet again?

          P.S. I see a terrible pain in the character from the realization that Soviet weapons turned out to be several times more effective than American ones.

          It’s like an open door day in a mental hospital: I ran out in a straitjacket, yelled, became empty and went back into the room with a feeling of complete satisfaction.

          Therefore, do not pay attention to him: now, in five minutes of forum life, he will scatter all his accumulated kakahi and fly away into a cloudless, serene and such a cozy world of ban.
      3. yehat
        yehat April 26 2016 11: 01
        0
        for completeness of comparison you need to add the G3 rifle and its clones
        then the review will be complete.
  • Denimax
    Denimax April 24 2016 20: 46
    -1
    Quote: Proxima
    These are REALLY WELL AUTOMATED

    Something is not thrilled with both samples. AK-12 took the same diseases for the installation of sights.
    Quote: Proxima
    a redesigned trigger that allows you to reload the machine with one hand, that is, you do not need to jerk the shutter every time you change the store.

    Called shutter lag.
    Quote: Proxima
    On the other hand, the new "tar" significantly reduced the recoil by installing a fundamentally new mechanical device - a telescopic balancer, but this made the machine a little heavier.

    Such quirks only complicate the mechanism that can be dispensed with.
    Quote: Proxima
    Another thing is important: OUR WEAPONS, ALWAYS, GOOD FELLOWS! Keep it up!

    Well, how without this ?! Very cheers-patriotic, and contributes to the collection of pluses.
  • hartlend
    hartlend April 25 2016 04: 31
    +3
    About these machines have already been written and rewritten. Even ordinary people realized that the Kovrov automatic machine is superior to the Izhevsk one in terms of performance characteristics, but more expensive and heavier. Also in Kovrov, production volumes are limited. In the Ministry of Defense, there is a covert struggle between two manufacturers, which has nothing to do with the real advantages and disadvantages of weapons. And yet, the "managerial" manner of speaking about specific things in words is annoying
    probably they will be equipped with units

    some units of the Airborne Forces
    .
  • alekc73
    alekc73 April 24 2016 12: 27
    +5
    How many copies are broken with these assault rifles. The AK-12 is massively in series, the AEK-971 special forces. Both assault rifles have pros and cons.
    1. DMB_95
      DMB_95 April 24 2016 13: 40
      +2
      And why not AEK - in a series? Massive 971 caliber 5,45, limited to a series of 973 caliber 7,62. Many experts love heavy bullets.
  • 72jora72
    72jora72 April 24 2016 12: 38
    +7
    And what do you dislike about Abakan ?? Have you even held it in your hands? I’m not saying that to crush him ..
    1. Sid.74
      Sid.74 April 24 2016 13: 24
      +7
      Two different machines and each is good in its own way. Each has its own strengths.
      If intelligence or special forces express a desire to fight with AEK, then I think we need to give such an opportunity.
      Indeed, in addition to AK, the troops and special forces have Tula Val and Vintorez, which NATO soldiers call "silent death", they are even bought by the United States. It's not worth unifying everything, it is fraught with the appearance of such black holes in the budget as the American gold F-35.

      I think for the sake of price, AEK should not be buried. It is necessary for the troops to give the right of choice.
    2. Sarmat149
      Sarmat149 April 24 2016 18: 12
      0
      Personally, I don’t like DIOPTR, I don’t see the situation behind him, I don’t like the bayonet-knife mount, some kind of slanting.
  • Proxima
    Proxima April 24 2016 13: 10
    +5
    Quote: stock buildbat
    The main thing is that the machine guns do not turn out to be the same trash as the AN-94, which for some reason someone has adopted.

    Quote: 72jora72
    And what do you dislike about Abakan ?? Have you even held it in your hands? I’m not saying that to crush him ..

    Yes, the "Abakan" is a specific machine, perhaps controversial in many respects, but I would not call it TRAP.
    1. goose
      goose April 26 2016 15: 24
      +1
      Quote: Proxima
      Yes, the "Abakan" is a specific machine, perhaps controversial in many respects, but I would not call it TRAP.

      Abakan is second only to models with balanced automation. It is not out of date at all. But mechanically, both AEK-971 and AK-12 are noticeably simpler.
      1. Droid
        Droid 20 May 2016 21: 07
        0
        Everything is exactly the opposite. AN-94 is superior to any balanced automation, it was clear 30 years ago.
  • Achilles
    Achilles April 24 2016 14: 07
    +7
    Kama like, but for me the AEK-971 is slightly better, it has less recoil than the AK-12, and this is important at a high rate of fire

  • Yak-3P
    Yak-3P April 25 2016 14: 04
    0
    shot from Abakan .. and you are really from the construction battalion dash ram
  • OlegLex
    OlegLex April 25 2016 16: 44
    0
    And where did you get that Abakan trash?
    turned out to be the same trash as AN-94
    did you shoot him? used in battle? whence such conclusions and neglect. Apparently (I dare to assume) that by the same principle as the SVT was compared with the Mosin rifle during the war, calling it unreliable and generally bad. And the same marines enjoyed using it.
    1. yehat
      yehat April 26 2016 11: 02
      +1
      Now the British are trying to make their new rifle based on the decisions of the Abakan.
      note, if there is a brand, m16 / m4, G3, SIG 55x, etc.
      the design of the abacan was chosen as the basis.
  • Arkhan
    Arkhan April 25 2016 20: 10
    0
    I don’t want to prove anything to you. Just leave it here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQpIZ4SdSUY
    You decide what to do with it.
  • Echo
    Echo April 26 2016 07: 19
    -2
    And a whole crowd of young Alyosheka immediately gave you minuses. While the AN-94 is really trash and crap fierce. I myself saw this machine, and I confirm: the one who took the AN-94 into service should be judged as a traitor to the Motherland.
    1. yehat
      yehat April 26 2016 11: 05
      +2
      only emotions - what exactly is bad in Abakan from your point of view?
  • Kazak_35
    Kazak_35 April 27 2016 11: 59
    0
    Quote: stock buildbat
    The main thing is that the machine guns do not turn out to be the same trash as the AN-94, which for some reason someone has adopted.


    I fundamentally disagree with you. Abakan was never created as a weapon for an ordinary fighter. It is more expensive, more difficult to manufacture and more dependent on the preparation of the shooter. special staff gave a very good review about this machine. And the AK-12 and AEK are essentially a deeply modernized Kalash with body kits.
  • Izotovp
    Izotovp April 24 2016 12: 02
    +3
    And no one mentions ABP at all. And he is and people use it!
    1. Lekov L
      Lekov L April 24 2016 12: 50
      +1
      Still, he is somewhat special.
      And, I think, very expensive. All the same automation to work in two environments.
      Respectfully..
      1. Izotovp
        Izotovp April 24 2016 12: 54
        0
        I think that it is not cheap from the fact that it is small-scale. It could serve as a basic platform for creating various modifications, for example, like the Chinese.
        1. Lekov L
          Lekov L April 24 2016 13: 01
          +2
          The A-91M assault rifle developed by the same Tula Instrument-Making Plant was adopted as the base. The two-medium special ADS assault rifle inherited from the prototype the bullpup configuration with the wide use of plastics in the design of the weapon body, as well as the general arrangement of mechanisms with gas-operated automatics, locking the barrel with a rotary bolt and ejection of spent cartridges forward through a short tube running to the right of the barrel to the rear base of the carrying handle weapons. A water / air switch was introduced into the design of the gas venting mechanism, and the design elements of the machine were revised taking into account the provision of operation in water
          http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/ads-dvuhsredny-r.ht
          .

          I did not see, did not communicate, I do not know. lol
          But judging by the quote apparatus is not easy.
          I can assume that it will be limitedly accepted for the relevant units, and then after a very thorough and lengthy test. Also GP integrated can force to remove.
          The customer is such a customer.
          Respectfully..
          1. Izotovp
            Izotovp April 24 2016 13: 12
            +2
            For the relevant units, in any case, according to my information, he is at the Black Sea Fleet. It is slightly surprising that ours can not solve the problem of the simultaneous use of a DTK or a silencer with a gimbal and a bayonet-knife. Either one or the other. Dilute vertically, make a long rail for attaching a bayonet-knife, a bipod handle simultaneously with the grenade launcher or as part of the design of the grenade launcher ....
            1. Lekov L
              Lekov L April 24 2016 14: 07
              +3
              All this is true, but he is already 4,6 kg.
              When spacing equipment vertically on a subframe, installing additional rails, we will throw another kilogram on the bipod, and then suddenly a collimator or a night light, a lantern, and so on.
              Moreover, the "wet" cartridge also probably weighs twice more than the usual one - the ammunition is heavy.
              This tube to reflect the liner forward - it runs.
              All this is more for "specialists".
              And more:
              Still, bullpup is still controversial for "our mass customer".
              They are not retrogrades - they are more often conservatives and this is not always bad.

              I have been friends for a long time with a member of military tests of the newest AK74.
              So he was tortured so much (and the tester and the glands) - he still starts. smile
              Maybe that's why they are not in a hurry. Decision is not for one decade.
              And ADS is of course a masterpiece!
              He would have to learn to shoot under the earth and in space.
              I take off my hat hi
              Respectfully..
              Yes, and a light needle bayonet is only on the top of the flame arrester - otherwise it will interfere with the ejection of the sleeves or the sight of the grenade launcher.
              Respectfully..
              1. Izotovp
                Izotovp April 24 2016 14: 22
                +1
                In conditions of reduced gravity it is possible, only balanced automation and the presence of the atmosphere are needed. In the airless space there is a problem with cooling. Therefore, laser pistols and revolvers were made. And at the expense of weight:
                1. dvina71
                  dvina71 April 24 2016 14: 42
                  0
                  Quote: Izotovp
                  In conditions of reduced gravity it is possible, only balanced automation and the presence of the atmosphere are needed. In the airless space there is a problem with cooling. Therefore, laser pistols and revolvers were made. And at the expense of weight:

                  Wow .. USE?
                  First of all, in an airless space, the problem of ignition of gunpowder appears and the problem of cooling disappears by itself.
                  Therefore .. either a beam weapon, or with a personal engine. Although you can get by with a bucket of balls, of course longer, but effective)))
                  1. Bayonet
                    Bayonet April 24 2016 15: 09
                    +10
                    Quote: dvina71
                    First of all, in the airless space there is a problem of the ignition of gunpowder

                    And what is the problem of the ignition of gunpowder? You seem to have fooled gunpowder with firewood! wassat
                    Read what gunpowder is!
                    Powder is a multicomponent solid explosive mixture capable of regular combustion in parallel layers without oxygen from the outside with the release of large amounts of thermal energy and gaseous products ..
                    Pay attention - "without oxygen access from outside"!
                    What is there about the exam? smile
                    1. Proxima
                      Proxima April 24 2016 15: 39
                      +5
                      Quote: Bayonet

                      What is there about the exam? smile

                      Come on ... To defuse the situation and about the "guns" in space: everyone knows about Gagarin, but for some reason not everyone knows who was "Gagarin" among small arms. Attention! Makarov pistol - FIRST "WAVE" IN ORBIT! Sly Russians are ahead of everyone here too!
                      1. Bayonet
                        Bayonet April 24 2016 15: 53
                        +4
                        Quote: Proxima
                        Makarov pistol - FIRST "WAVE" IN ORBIT!

                        That's right, "Makar" flew with Gagarin. The flight ended in triumph, the astronaut landed where it was supposed to, and not in the forest, not in the jungle and not in enemy territory. Gagarin did not have to fight off wild animals, bloodthirsty cannibals or shoot back from the "hirelings of world imperialism." smile
                      2. marshes
                        marshes April 24 2016 15: 59
                        +2
                        Quote: Bayonet
                        Gagarin to fight off wild animals, bloodthirsty cannibals or shoot back from the "hirelings of world imperialism."

                        By the way, they didn’t make a fig rifle complex, here he was at VO and in 80 he read in a magazine.
                        Tricolor, would have been in open sale without hesitation bought.
                        And then you’re sitting fishing on OR, and then don’t take it, take a jackal, a wolf or a wild boar laughing , places are deaf, even naked smile
                      3. Izotovp
                        Izotovp April 24 2016 16: 27
                        +2
                        http://topwar.ru/36621-oruzhie-vyzhivaniya-kosmonavtov-pistolet-tp-82.html
                      4. marshes
                        marshes April 24 2016 16: 39
                        0
                        Quote: Izotovp
                        http://topwar.ru/36621-oruzhie-vyzhivaniya-kosmonavtov-pistolet-tp-82.html

                        So I’m talking about him, I didn’t say that I’m like a super hunter, essentially a poacher. But from nature I take what I “process” and eat smile in the next three days. I don’t sell anything. Hunting is a type of recreation, a gun and there is an opportunity, greyhounds on horses. You feel like a nobleman laughing
                        There is a difference with America laughing No matter how they talked about the pistols. smile
                      5. Izotovp
                        Izotovp April 24 2016 20: 25
                        0
                        The gun is good from wolves and when hunting for small things in the taiga.
                  2. yehat
                    yehat April 26 2016 11: 12
                    +1
                    and then Gagarin comes out with a tricuspid and all in white)))
            2. tpwr
              tpwr April 24 2016 18: 42
              -2
              Quote: Bayonet
              Pay attention - "without oxygen access from outside"!

              In environments with different amounts of oxygen, the same gunpowder will burn differently.
              1. sharp-lad
                sharp-lad April 24 2016 22: 39
                0
                In the sleeve and barrel with a locked bullet and bolt, the oxygen content is very dependent on the formation of the shooter, not the environment!
              2. tpwr
                tpwr April 24 2016 22: 47
                0
                Quote: sharp-lad
                In the sleeve and barrel with a locked bullet and bolt, the oxygen content is very dependent on the formation of the shooter

                Actually, from the loading density of the cartridge. The shooter is out of business here.
        2. Izotovp
          Izotovp April 24 2016 15: 35
          +2
          Orbital station "Almaz-2" (aka "Salyut-3"). Cannon nr-23.
        3. yehat
          yehat April 26 2016 11: 09
          +1
          not the problem of ignition of gunpowder, you can find an alternative, but a sharp increase in the problem of recoil and heating
        4. Droid
          Droid 20 May 2016 21: 11
          0
          Immediately visible education before the exam. Is this some kind of problem you found with the ignition of gunpowder in an airless space?
      2. Izotovp
        Izotovp April 24 2016 15: 26
        0
        http://www.ohotniki.com/new/372.htm
    2. Izotovp
      Izotovp April 24 2016 16: 06
      +1
      It’s not bad that it will weigh a lot, it’s bad that there is no possibility of such a choice, although it is not so difficult to do it all from an engineering point of view.
      1. Lekov L
        Lekov L April 24 2016 22: 06
        0
        Colleagues
        Forgive God for the sake of - fell down on household chores, then walk with the dog.
        Like a joke, and the whole branch opened.
        Thank you for attention! yes
        They remembered correctly about "Almaz". Only HP 23 there was greatly shortened.
        And, in my opinion - not sure, it was in the atmospheric zone.
        The "exhaust" appears to have been in a vacuum.
        Thirty years passed, and "Almaz" was then considered disassembled. I was then interested in other parts of it. wink
        At that time, however, the problems of cold vacuum welding were taken into account, especially in the interaction of moving parts during recharging.
        Therefore, options for counteracting the "aggressor" were proposed more and more by the method of directed explosive throwing of a large number of PEs, like MONok.
        Therefore, my "joke" about the ADS in space.
        And the solution to the problem is obvious - spraying a certain analogue of Teflon on moving parts and you can fight on the moon and asteroids.
        Thank you all so much.
        Respectfully..
        ps But I do not know underground ... request
  • marshes
    marshes April 24 2016 13: 55
    +2
    One of the Caspian powers has purchased a decent amount, according to VO news. smile
  • siberalt
    siberalt April 24 2016 12: 04
    +3
    Weapons and equipment for polite people. Scratch your turnip, gentlemen! laughing
    1. Ros 56
      Ros 56 April 24 2016 12: 22
      +2
      Does this mean after hitting the butt? laughing
      1. alexmach
        alexmach April 24 2016 16: 04
        +4
        With a modern telescopic butt, it’s not even a hit. Yes, and sorry for the butt
      2. Victor Demchenko
        Victor Demchenko April 25 2016 08: 27
        +1
        it’s possible with a berets ... also comes very quickly. winked
  • Tusv
    Tusv April 24 2016 12: 05
    0
    As an airman I do not understand this. We need the Willows in each station and the Neighbors who guard us. But I would like to know your authoritative opinion, how do they differ
  • rotmistr60
    rotmistr60 April 24 2016 12: 06
    +1
    and price indicators

    From this, it seems to me, they will dance.
    1. tol100v
      tol100v April 24 2016 13: 20
      +1
      Quote: rotmistr60
      From this, it seems to me, they will dance.

      All the music and dancing is determined by lobbyists with big wallets. We are unlikely to see or hear an open, competitive and righteous solution. But it was proposed to give these products to independent specialists for testing, and only then talk about something. We are informed that both products have passed acceptance. Then the best way out of this is: To supply both barrels at once to the "Warrior" kit! One is easy, the other is accurate!
  • dvina71
    dvina71 April 24 2016 12: 08
    +3
    Well, I don’t understand this boobs. Both passed -oba and must be taken into service. Only the presence of a machine gun in the arsenal of the Republic of Armenia will give it an export life. What the army does not buy, it will disperse around the world and our soldiers will have weapons appropriate for the tasks and the plants will not be at a loss.
    This is not a nuclear submarine ..
    1. Massik
      Massik April 24 2016 12: 32
      +1
      Still someone would give money for two production lines. At the same time, each should have a reserve of 10 million automatic machines at least. Read the last paragraph carefully.
      1. dvina71
        dvina71 April 24 2016 12: 48
        +2
        Quote: Marssik
        Still someone would give money for two production lines. At the same time, each should have a reserve of 10 million automatic machines at least. Read the last paragraph carefully.

        I read carefully. We are talking about the leisurely rearmament of some units. About any 10 million people are not talking.
        Something tells me that there are already production lines in Kovrov and Izhevsk ..
        The question is the needs of the Moscow Region. The more they need, the cheaper it will be. But they are not going to urgently change all the machines, at least in the existing parts, not to mention the mobile reserve.
        Therefore, I write that you need to take both. This will activate export supplies and make the price acceptable for our MO.
      2. marshes
        marshes April 24 2016 13: 57
        0
        Quote: Marssik
        Still someone would give money for two production lines. At the same time, each should have a reserve of 10 million automatic machines at least. Read the last paragraph carefully.

        Marcel, what ended up at 74 warehouses? Plus AKM.
        And so AEK is tempting. smile
        1. Massik
          Massik April 24 2016 18: 08
          +1
          Quote: marshes
          Marcel, what ended up at 74 warehouses? Plus AKM.
          Recently, there were a shaft of Maxim machine guns with Mosin carbines and they were not going to run out + a year or two ago, the MO was almost panic "Where do we put 20 million machine guns." You still have to make a new bookmark, not in a year, so in 5.
          1. marshes
            marshes April 24 2016 18: 30
            0
            Quote: Marssik
            Recently, there were a shaft of Maxim machine guns with Mosin carbines and they were not going to run out + a year or two ago, the MO was almost panic "Where do we put 20 million machine guns." You still have to make a new bookmark, not in a year, so in 5.

            You’ll be surprised at the expense of SCS and AK, by the way, they make mock-ups for schools. A radial cutter makes a slot in the trunk, by the way trunks are chrome-plated in perfect condition.
            For that, RPK 7.62, as a sample, does not have a striker, but the PPSh has a barrel. smile
            1. kumaxa
              kumaxa April 25 2016 18: 01
              +1
              such models were in our school. in the NVP class. with sawn trunks, the currents were akeems and akeems. the truth then the NVP was canceled. but introduced obzh. we called entot lesson by the society of pregnant women. sales I remember in one advanced school where I studied there was an advanced electronic shooting gallery. but for some reason they fired from the 75s izhovok air guns. then the hunchback invented disarmament and stopped teaching to fight at school.
      3. alexmach
        alexmach April 24 2016 16: 13
        +3
        Read the last paragraph carefully.


        But at the same time, taking into account the existing stockpiles of those assault rifles that have already been purchased from us, they will probably be equipped with units, especially for special purposes, that perform certain tasks, and some units of the airborne forces


        The paragraph is somehow strange. Well, how can you follow something without knowing why? Who is this machine for? for special forces? for the Airborne Forces? For motorized rifles? for everyone at once? How can you assess compliance with criteria that are not there?

        If for special forces - then it is necessary to pull the characteristics they need to the maximum.

        If for the whole army - then the price matters ... but only if for all then what is available in warehouses? can it just be modernized with all kinds of body kits?

        And without an accurate understanding of what to do with it, what do they even develop?
        1. yehat
          yehat April 26 2016 11: 17
          0
          another question - is it worth it to change the cartridge.
      4. yehat
        yehat April 26 2016 11: 15
        0
        I believe that both AEK and AK-12 have prospects for 10 million production, some for export
        but if they are compared for another 20 years, you can no longer accept it - it will be pointless.
    2. Proxima
      Proxima April 24 2016 13: 02
      +1
      Quote: dvina71
      Well, I don’t understand this boobs. Both passed -oba and must be taken into service.

      I agree. Moreover, such precedents in the history of small arms have already been. Let’s recall at least the anti-tank rifles of Degtyarev and Simonov. They chose it, they chose it, and then they spat and both started up the series. Most importantly, this will not affect the price of automatic machines (relatively low seriality). The factories will produce different machines!
      1. Bayonet
        Bayonet April 24 2016 18: 45
        +1
        Quote: Proxima
        The factories will produce different machines!

        After all, one cartridge and shops fit, that's okay.
    3. seal561
      seal561 April 25 2016 08: 52
      +3
      The funny thing is that we tested the AEK-971 back in 1997. And on land and under water, and through fields, forests, they drove with him. From what I remember, I made three comments:
      - The butt was folding towards the shutter, until you close it, the shutter was not to distort;
      - the metal itself was very bad;
      - very much drowned for some reason on my right ear, right to the pain.
      And so the machine itself, according to TTX was a fairy tale. I laid in short bursts the entire store in a square of 25x25 cm from 100 meters. From AKS-74M - it was not real ...
      1. goose
        goose April 26 2016 15: 39
        +1
        All the same, normal field equipment costs much more than any machine. Personal sleeping bag, tent, thermal kits and camouflage sets, normal boots, backpack and unloading. All this is the first priority, without which the combat efficiency drops very quickly. It is not so cheap, even with mass production.
        Bayonet into the firebox - give a normal hunting knife for everyday use, with the ability to pierce something and hardness> 42.
        And this is without communication, optics, GPS and camping utensils.

        An assault rifle with a simple collimator and a telescopic butt is not more expensive than the above kit. In the meantime, if everything from the list above is there, I would have used the Mosin rifle, and PPSh, and PPS, and even PDM.
  • Swed
    Swed April 24 2016 12: 11
    +1
    The planet is burning and spinning,
    There is smoke above our homeland.
    And so we need one victory!
    One for all, we are for at the cost of do not stand.
    One for all, we are for at the cost of do not stand.
    1. Proxima
      Proxima April 24 2016 13: 30
      +4
      Quote: Swed
      The planet is burning and spinning,
      There is smoke above our homeland.
      And so we need one victory!
      One for all, we are for at the cost of do not stand.
      One for all, we are for at the cost of do not stand.

      Maybe we won’t JOKE ON THIS ISSUE? Of course you can order cheaper, but only then you still have to pay - THE BLOOD OF OUR GUYS.
      1. Swed
        Swed April 24 2016 15: 37
        +5
        By this song, on the contrary, I wanted to show that in such matters it is not worth saving, because such savings will have to be paid for by human lives.
        It is strange that you perceived everything with the exact opposite.
        1. Proxima
          Proxima April 24 2016 15: 46
          +5
          Quote: Swed
          By this song, on the contrary, I wanted to show that in such matters it is not worth saving, because such savings will have to be paid for by human lives.
          It is strange that you perceived everything with the exact opposite.

          EXCUSE ME. Once again, I am convinced of the WEALTH and DIFFICULTY of the RUSSIAN LANGUAGE.
  • nazar_0753
    nazar_0753 April 24 2016 12: 11
    0
    According to him, “both automata significantly outnumber regular samples”.

    Ashpen are superior in price - just look at how large series of "regular" AKs were produced
  • pimen
    pimen April 24 2016 12: 20
    0
    ... and what the Defense Ministry does not purchase, they will sell it to the foreign market - so what? But will it be good
  • VP
    VP April 24 2016 12: 22
    +2
    What for save a penny?
    Seriously, there’s no money to win there, one Armata will cost you as a rifleman for an entire division
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 April 24 2016 12: 34
      0
      That's just the Ministry of Defense and will purchase the machine that will be cheaper.
  • iliitchitch
    iliitchitch April 24 2016 12: 32
    +1
    I don't quite understand - well, there is an AK, Mr. Kovrov also has his own niche, why arrange a race, horse races, or what? Are we in sga? Let's say Degtyarevsky wins. A lot of dough in Izhevsk has been drained, did any of the top managers predict any damage to the reputation of the Kalashnikov concern in the world? In CRISTS, not stupid%?
    The 12th will win - on the contrary. But not only in the export of machines we will lose in both cases ... What is the trick? In penny savings, by ~ 30rub \ pcs? We multiply by 100 million pieces, for example - 3 billion rubles. saved + footcloths shook in front of the SENSITIVE global arms market. Fuck saving.
    Again, yo, are there some koker on the horizon? What a threesome!
    AK, in my opinion, is a perfect unit, you can only refine it in small things, any new part in the MECHANISM will complicate it, and this is extremely harmful in simple parts where even the last stupid ram, having gone down from the mountain on a basin, is obliged to look after personal weapons. This is not a piece of weapons. Yes, and tradition, again, no one has canceled them.
    1. 2s1122
      2s1122 April 24 2016 13: 07
      +5
      In 1905 (it didn’t seem to make a mistake), when they fought with Japan, some generals shouted that automatic weapons were harmful because of the high consumption of ammunition. So let's take the best and not cheap weapons yes
      1. Pitot
        Pitot April 24 2016 13: 16
        0
        Gold words. +++++++
      2. goose
        goose April 26 2016 15: 44
        0
        Quote: 2s1122
        some generals shouted that automatic weapons are harmful due to the high consumption of ammunition

        It’s easy to tell you when the state took care of ammunition, and when the stupid tsarist bureaucracy had factories in 30% of the first need, it was not up to the fat.
        You are aware that state-owned factories before the First World War were without orders, despite the fact that the state had only 20% of the shells for guns. And even those states were recognized at least twice as low after the REV. Nothing soon, we will again come to the rotten tsarist Russia, we will have to take Berdan's single-shot rifle so that there is no over-expenditure of ammunition + horse traction.
  • Massik
    Massik April 24 2016 12: 34
    +12
    Quote: Stroibat stock
    The main thing is that the machine guns do not turn out to be the same trash as the AN-94, which for some reason someone has adopted.
    Did you even hold this "trash" in your hands? Or do you use the "authoritative opinion" of some comrades?
    1. zadorin1974
      zadorin1974 April 24 2016 13: 00
      +1
      Marcel, have you brought a sample? If so, what are your impressions? With the hundredth episode, I’m familiar with everything that is darker than the modern forest (only photo video)
      1. Massik
        Massik April 24 2016 13: 24
        +3
        Quote: zadorin1974
        Marcel, have you brought a sample? If so, what are your impressions? With the hundredth episode, I’m familiar with everything that is darker than the modern forest (only photo video)
        Unfortunately, I also use the opinion of an authoritative person who demonstrated this machine. It shoots really well, but the weak point is the "rails" of the carriage, they wear out in 3 thousand shots and the barrel starts to "walk". You cannot form your own opinion on the basis of one "feeling".
        1. zadorin1974
          zadorin1974 April 24 2016 14: 05
          +1
          Thank you. I honestly remain a fan of 105-2. I also measured the perm laughing, and I heard tales in front of the collection that they would flaunt everything after a year. And what about Ratnik first-hand? What is on the box as usual with allowances request.A young man came to our office, Airborne Intelligence, the last six months in Armenia request) So they are still being bought for their money (normal shoes, glands needed and some of the medicine).
          1. Massik
            Massik April 24 2016 15: 25
            +3
            In our units of "supernumerary readiness" so far only clothes and new helmets have appeared. There are no new bulletproof vests as such, but they gave unloading, although seeing a fighter who stupidly shoves his 4 magazines there does not really drive anything, it is frankly funny for me to walk around puffing with pouches and straps. Better to return the old AK pouches to them. Boots are overt skis. You can walk in them with grief in half, but you can run ...
            1. kumaxa
              kumaxa April 25 2016 17: 47
              0
              here on the website the stats were kirzachi or berets footcloths or socks!
  • VP
    VP April 24 2016 12: 51
    +2
    Better not the one that is cheaper but the one that is more efficient.
    The cost of shooting is small, there is not much to save.
  • raid14
    raid14 April 24 2016 13: 01
    0
    Both machines are worthy, but in the Moscow region they "scratch their turnips", cannot decide what to buy cheaper.
    https://news.mail.ru/politics/25567837/?frommail=1
    1. 2s1122
      2s1122 April 24 2016 13: 10
      0
      Let the slingshot buy, while the rubber is enough wassat
      1. iliitchitch
        iliitchitch April 24 2016 14: 24
        +2
        Quote: 2s1122
        Let the slingshot buy, while the rubber is enough


        wassat inappropriate. Buy slingshots for yourself, we have our own conversation here. When you can boast a MASS automatic machine - so welcome. A characteristic feature of suction cups around Russia is that we have a little problem, it’s neutral, otherwise they’ll pour mud with a dirt and they’ll dance a jig on the bones. But as an achievement, they will still be obsessed or smeared. Hi father, my friend. When are we smarter? Is it really incomprehensible that if Russia is killed, then you are a lawyer?
        1. 2s1122
          2s1122 April 24 2016 15: 21
          +4
          In the sense of the rubber band, I say that identifying the best personal small arms for a fighter is not a simple task, the atoms are undecided in the sense of a lot. Here I like AEK hiand it is not much more complicated than AK as some think. And I myself am more of an imperial man, as they said before.: "For the Tsar, faith and fatherland." wink
  • Razvedka_Boem
    Razvedka_Boem April 24 2016 13: 04
    0
    Wait and see.
  • mlad
    mlad April 24 2016 13: 07
    0
    so you think what it is better to ride in the desert - in a limousine with air conditioning or on a tractor in the sand
    1. 2s1122
      2s1122 April 24 2016 15: 32
      +1
      The best in the desert on a camel good
  • Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter April 24 2016 13: 22
    0
    Here "balanced automatic" when conducting automatic fire gives better results than AK 12. But the machine turned out to be heavier. Perhaps because the Kovrovites have less technological capabilities than the Izhevsk residents. I would accept both, put out decent games, and test them in ... the Syrian desert. This is where everything will be checked - both reliability and efficiency. And so, at the range and at the shooting range - it's not quite that. But when your life depends on the trunk, then the decision will not be biased.
  • Bramb
    Bramb April 24 2016 14: 50
    +5
    Why is everyone so attached to the recoil of the AK-74? For me personally, the recoil is gentle, almost none, the machine is "soft". Where did you see the strong impact there? He shoots heap, well, three always fall into a circle of 10 cm for 200 m. At least, they always hit me. Not a great expert in this field, but what is wrong with this machine gun? For me, such a great weapon.
    There are specialists here, and not just as I shot, who could correctly explain? Well, about the new machines at the same time.
    1. marshes
      marshes April 24 2016 15: 07
      0
      Quote: Bramb
      ? He shoots a bunch, well, three always fall into a 10 cm circle for 200 m.

      In general, classes with target number 4 are held at distances of 100m, maybe a little more.
      But the buzz, the shooting of the remaining ammunition, plus the tracer, then you get tired of cleaning the barrel with improvised means. I’m silent about idle ones. laughing
    2. Massik
      Massik April 24 2016 15: 33
      +2
      Quote: Bramb
      He shoots a lot, well, three always fall into a 10 cm circle for 200 m
      Remove the extra toe then we will believe you wassat From open solitary , putting 3 holes for 200 in a plate is not so easy, and you are in line laughing
    3. tpwr
      tpwr April 24 2016 18: 51
      +1
      Quote: Bramb
      What is so all attached to the return of the AK-74?

      Not to recoil, but to balancing the recoil momentum together with all its vectors.
      And not us, but finally MO, because 40 years ago
  • Yegorchik
    Yegorchik April 24 2016 15: 14
    +2
    It’s all just that the tar machine has a better machine, and the Kalashnikov’s lobby is better at the Ministry of Defense’s turnip and it is scratching.
  • Igor39
    Igor39 April 24 2016 15: 24
    +3
    It is written that they will accept it taking into account the fact that in the warehouses for modernization, that is, AK12, AEK will do a little and then get frozen, I bet 500 rubles that AK12 will be accepted.
  • a001126
    a001126 April 24 2016 16: 52
    0
    what is the return on AK? it is not there or try shooting with SVD, you will feel the difference right away
  • Sarmat149
    Sarmat149 April 24 2016 18: 06
    0
    Quote: stock buildbat
    The main thing is that the machine guns do not turn out to be the same trash as the AN-94, which for some reason someone has adopted.


    Well, yes, you can’t give anything except BSL-110)))
  • Verdun
    Verdun April 24 2016 18: 41
    0
    “Both machines are much more expensive than regular models”
    Interestingly, but the Ministry of Defense does not have a desire to sell, albeit with some "discount", part of the already purchased assault rifles to foreign buyers and acquire more advanced small arms? Or is it deliberately calmly watching how factories, for the sake of survival, will drive new machines for export?
    1. tpwr
      tpwr April 24 2016 19: 04
      -6
      Quote: Verdun
      Interestingly, the MO does not have a desire to sell, albeit with a certain "discount", some of the machines already purchased to foreign buyers

      And who will buy? Who needs them? Unless it’s almost for nothing and somewhere in a country with a high birth rate.
      And the old ones, on the cartridge 7,62x39 mm, no one bought. Those shipped "on credit", for kisses on the gums of "dear Leonid Ilyich." And assurances of "eternal friendship".
      Now we have neither "dear Leonid Ilyich", nor the crazy oil prices of the 70s, the first half of the 80s of the last century.
      1. Verdun
        Verdun April 24 2016 19: 20
        0
        And who will buy? Who needs them?
        It is because of the absolute uselessness that the Kalashnikov assault rifle is being faked around the world? Or are you someone who believes fake is better than the original?
        1. tpwr
          tpwr April 24 2016 19: 28
          -4
          Quote: Verdun
          faked around the world?

          This is you bent. About the mass of fakes. There are no markets for this.
          Quote: Verdun
          Or are you one who believes fake is better than the original

          I do not exclude such a possibility at all. And in terms of price-quality ratio, a fake is likely to be better.
          In addition, do not forget:
          1. The price of fakes.
          2. The possibility of criminal supplies of fakes. In some places and for some this is a big plus.
  • Denis Skiff
    Denis Skiff April 24 2016 19: 09
    0
    According to him, "both machines are much more expensive than regular models"
    Well? will we do it in one place?
  • kamski
    kamski April 24 2016 19: 38
    +1
    I don’t understand why the PIKALINI bar is placed on the receiver. The part is constantly disassembled and there is no rigidity that requires constant play, collimator or other sights are simply useless. I also consider a fuse, the fire mode of KALASH is better than this flag as on a PC
    1. alexmach
      alexmach April 25 2016 23: 06
      +1
      So actually this was one of the reasons for the modernization, because on the AK-74 it simply had nowhere to put
  • newcomer
    newcomer April 24 2016 19: 46
    +2
    I’ll say right away that I am a supporter of the cartridge 7,62, I won’t be bothered why, they discussed a lot on. in the encyclopedia of the special forces of the world, there is a section about weapons. and so it says that the ranks of the Mo more like 7,62 rather than 5,45. they really want to buy new weapons specifically for this cartridge. therefore aek initially developed both options, later on and ak pulled himself up. and both machines will accept my opinion. I think in two versions 7,62 and 5,45.
  • tolancop
    tolancop April 24 2016 21: 07
    +4
    Quote: 13 warrior
    Again, they are optimized until the resource is reduced, as happened with the AK-74M

    Resource reduction looks bad. At first sight. But something tells me that in serious situations, not every infantryman will be able to LIVE until the resource of his machine gun is used up ... And for the few who succeed, they will be given a machine gun, the resource of which the dead comrade did not have time to use ...
    Cynically? I agree. But, alas, rationally ...
  • Baloo
    Baloo April 24 2016 21: 08
    +2
    Question from civilian: why black? But not too glare even in daylight? Maybe matte and digitized is better than gloss black?
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Lekov L
      Lekov L April 24 2016 22: 38
      +3
      Black - cheaper, less rust and does not glare.
      He and so matt in fact.
      Who should be wrapped in rags (according to the terrain and weather conditions), who should not (to the technicians and the rear men) will be left as they are.
      That's all.
      Respectfully..
      1. Baloo
        Baloo April 24 2016 22: 39
        +1
        Accepted, thanks.
    3. saygon66
      saygon66 April 24 2016 22: 56
      +3
      - There was such a "body kit" - green ... In the PV, the KGB was awarded ...
      1. saygon66
        saygon66 April 24 2016 23: 01
        +1
        - By the way, the same samples were presented in the "greenery" ...
      2. Red_Hamer
        Red_Hamer April 25 2016 03: 18
        0
        Color "Malachite", it's so Soviet! But I haven't seen a shop like this (malachite).
  • Nasty
    Nasty April 25 2016 00: 44
    0
    100% will take the AK-12. Personally, I like AEK.
  • Mikhalychch
    Mikhalychch April 25 2016 03: 13
    0
    Little info, was it worth writing.
  • Red_Hamer
    Red_Hamer April 25 2016 03: 36
    0
    Ah, AEK-971 is interesting! Hold in hands, and asks.
  • Wolka
    Wolka April 25 2016 06: 35
    0
    I prefer AEK 971, and Kalashnikov is narcissistic hypocrites, you need to work, stop cutting coupons for early development
  • Gescheiterte
    Gescheiterte April 25 2016 07: 14
    -1
    How many times have they announced the winner, set the deadlines?
    The powerful of the shogo world still cannot share the pie, who will row the loot with a shovel.
    Here's a comedy then.
    It's not that it’s better or cheaper, the reason for this long performance is that one of the opponents did not fall with a gulped mouth.
    And people are such simpletons and believe in stories about long trials, which, according to representatives of the defense industry, have long since ended!
  • avg-mgn
    avg-mgn April 25 2016 08: 02
    0
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Quote: Großer Feldherr
    It’s for nothing that taxes in Russia are among the smallest in the world.

    Excuse me, who told you such nonsense? One of the largest in the world, you probably wanted to say

    So who is right, colleagues? Before writing nonsense, you can click a button on the Internet? Lazy is wrong, that's for sure.
    1. kumaxa
      kumaxa April 25 2016 17: 41
      0
      that's how they always started for health, finished for peace!
  • avg-mgn
    avg-mgn April 25 2016 08: 12
    +1
    The same position, side view.
  • Forever so
    Forever so April 25 2016 12: 16
    +1
    Take new machines into service, and distribute the old ones to the population, in order to protect their right to life. And I just guarantee that the government will begin to implement all the decrees of the president, and the deputies will start writing wonderful laws.
  • the47th
    the47th April 25 2016 12: 51
    0
    AK-12 was not weakly processed during the competition.
    And the shape of the shutter handle is rather strange:
  • Skubudu
    Skubudu April 25 2016 15: 10
    -6
    M4 assembled with your own hands from the right components, covers all these crafts
  • Leonid Har
    Leonid Har April 25 2016 15: 45
    0
    Which of the enterprises will approach this problem more purposefully and in a complex, and will probably receive orders from the Ministry of Defense.

    The main thing is that it does not sound, who will roll back more and receive an order
  • kumaxa
    kumaxa April 25 2016 17: 33
    +2
    Well here again! like with a mosquito! citizens !!! as the 74th was in service it will be so. because adults are arguing like preschoolers! be realistic. Kalash 74 has been cooked up so much that probably enough for 100 years of war. All the storekeepers are trained in the possession of the AK-74, and someone drove a shche with akem. it is possible for the pros and they will produce small batches of something like AEC-971 or AK-12 there. Then I watched a video on the site. and so, the pro warriors are the most prim people in terms of innovation! you argue to hoarseness and insults sometimes. and if you look at the videos then the army team would prefer an old proven weapon right down to akem! perhaps the response units will be armed with something new. but the usual infantry, especially the infantry with a service life of 12m never! I’m sure of the General Staff, there are enough adequate people and the rearmament of the army and navy with the latest models of small arms will not happen soon. even the Yankee and then do not remove the M16 from weapons. I’m arguing about anything. Tok-ma argue shine scales so to speak. recourse
  • Orionvit
    Orionvit April 25 2016 17: 39
    0
    Quote: alexmach
    There is another parameter not considered - reliability.

    How is it not reviewed? If they passed the state tests, then they shot them in various conditions, and resource tests in full. In short, "killed". If passed, then everything is in order with reliability, because this is the first indicator for small arms. Or do you think they chose by their appearance?
    1. alexmach
      alexmach April 25 2016 23: 10
      +1
      So what? There are only 2 options for evaluating this reliability? Passed and failed tests?
      How about
      1. resource - MTBF
      2. Some kind of reliability class. (can you shoot in the desert, can you erase in the swamp or can you shoot for a week lying in the sand and before that a week in the swamp?)
  • Orionvit
    Orionvit April 25 2016 17: 54
    0
    Quote: Izotovp
    In conditions of reduced gravity it is possible, only balanced automation and the presence of the atmosphere are needed. In the airless space there is a problem with cooling. Therefore, laser pistols and revolvers were made. And at the expense of weight:

    Learn physics. In a vacuum, heat dissipates perfectly into the surrounding space. Sorry radiated. If only not on the sunny side. But the return is really a problem.
  • VOENOBOZ
    VOENOBOZ April 25 2016 18: 49
    0
    Everything is exactly, something is wrong, there is no breakthrough.
  • tracer
    tracer April 25 2016 22: 51
    +1
    Damn what to guess? Both samples must be taken. Where there are rifles .. AEK where to carry the machine as part of the form of AK. Dyagterivtsi created a unique thing in general .... Landing forces and specialists in the first place
  • Squirrel has come
    Squirrel has come April 26 2016 09: 10
    +1
    I'm from the forest ... ours. Tar is better (second money).
  • AlexSlash
    AlexSlash April 26 2016 15: 05
    +1
    I think AEK will not be missed, Kalashnikov has a strong lobby.
  • D. Dan
    D. Dan April 26 2016 21: 26
    0
    AEK should be moved, but in general, both AK and AEK should stop there, it is necessary to create something stunning and cheap. So that both AEK and AK and M16a4 move tightly.
  • strelok-54
    strelok-54 April 27 2016 00: 19
    +1
    Nonsense all this! AK-74 in warehouses quite a lot. It is necessary to equip them with collimator sights, replace the butt with adjustable. This is enough for regular troops and arming reservists.
    But aero-mobile rifle units, Special Forces, Intelligence, PV provide the best weapons and equipment regardless of price. It’s criminal to save on something. If AEK is better, but more expensive, then to everyone who is at the forefront to issue AEK urgently !!!

    No need to drag two expensive projects at the same time! Savings should be invested in the construction of new cartridge factories in order to raise the quality of domestic cartridges to the world level. Any excellent machine at one point can be discounted by bad cartridges.
  • Diviz
    Diviz April 27 2016 10: 14
    0
    Aek 971 on the characteristics of the best.
    I can also assume that the machines will be computerized and will start with the military
    combat complexes like uranium 9 and eventually reach the warrior. These parameters of the machine about the status will be displayed on the computer. maybe make a barrel cooling system. but an exoskeleton is already asking for it.
    ps. launches a missile on the eastern NKVD. aliexpress nete parts fit.
  • vnedra
    vnedra April 28 2016 20: 10
    +1
    Aek 971 for specialists, Kalash to the masses. that's all.