Military Review

Day of Military Glory of Russia - Ice Battle (1242). How liberal historians tried to deprive Russia of the significance of the victories of Alexander Nevsky

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In 2008, the TV channel Russia 1 and the television company ViD organized the large-scale joint project Name of Russia. The initial stage of the project was attended by specialists from the Russian Institute stories Of the Russian Academy of Sciences, the Foundation for Effective Politics and the FOM (Public Opinion Foundation). On the eve of Victory Day, a list of five hundred historical personalities was compiled, which at one time actively participated (in one way or another) in the development and protection of the Fatherland. With the help of Internet voting by the end of 2008 of the year and the debate in the studio the Name Russia was chosen. It turned out to be the name of Alexander Nevsky (524 575 votes of Russians).


Today - 18 April (5 April Art.) Russia celebrates one of the Days of Military Glory, which is directly connected with the name of Prince of Novgorod, Grand Duke of Kiev, Grand Prince of Vladimir, Holy Russian Orthodox Church warrior Alexander Yaroslavich Nevsky. This is the day that entered the history of Russia in 1242 year as the Day of the Battle of the Ice - the day when Russian troops led by the great commander inflicted a crushing defeat on the Chudskoye Lake knights of the Livonian Order. The episode with the Livonian "conquerors", when those under the onslaught of the detachments of Alexander Nevsky retreat and go under the ice, is one of the most vivid descriptions of Russian history. So vivid that, even after 774, the historical episode is quite fully described in history textbooks, and from the very first levels of familiarizing children with the pages of the heroic past.

Day of Military Glory of Russia - Ice Battle (1242). How liberal historians tried to deprive Russia of the significance of the victories of Alexander Nevsky


Despite the frankly cynical campaign aimed at discarding the role of the opposition of the Russian army to the next stage of expansion of the Western powers under a far-fetched religious pretext, the date of April 18 1242 remains one of the most respected among domestic historical dates.

From the chronicle (translated from Old Slavonic for a school history textbook):
It was then a Sabbath day, and at sunrise the two troops came together.
And there was an evil and great slaughter for the Germans and Russians, and the crackling sound of breaking spears and the sound of sword strikes were heard, so the ice on the frozen lake was broken, and there was no ice, because it was covered in blood. And I myself heard about it from an eyewitness who was there.
And the Germans fled, and the Russians drove them out as if by air, and there was nowhere for them to escape, and the Germans fell 500, and the best German governors were taken prisoner by 50 and brought them to Novgorod, and the other Germans drowned in the lake, because it was spring. Others fled badly wounded. There was this battle 5 April (1242 g.)




Konstantin Simonov's poem “Ice Battle”:

Already mixed people, horses,
Swords, axes, axes,
And the prince is still calm
Watched the battle from the mountain.
And just waiting for the Livonians,
Having mixed up the ranks, they were drawn into battle,
He, flashing his sword in the sun,
Druzhin led the way.
Raising swords of Russian steel,
Bending the spear shaft,
From the forest with a cry flew
Novogorodskie shelves.
On the ice flew with a clank, thunder,
By shaggy manes bending down;
And the first on a huge horse
The prince entered the German formation.
And, retreating before the prince,
Throwing spears and shields
The Germans fell down from their horses to the ground
Having lifted the iron fingers.
The bay horses were hot,
From under the hooves heaved dust
Bodies over the snow dragged
Stuck in narrow stirrups.
It was a mess
Iron, blood and water.
In place of knight squads
There were blood marks.
Some were lying drowning
In bloody icy water.
Others rushed away, crouching,
Cowardly spur horses.


It would seem, who would think to dispute the chronicle facts, many of which are confirmed by the chronicles of representatives of the Livonian Order itself? However, such “specialists” turned out to be not just a lot, but a lot. Attempts to eradicate the pages of heroic victories from national history were made for the sole purpose: for the new generation to become Ivanov, not remembering kinship, ardent supporters of the achievements of the consumer society and adherents of the idea of ​​“Russian defeatism”. It is noteworthy that the mass start of these attempts took place in the perestroika era. In the very era when the concept of “publicity” completely consciously began to introduce certain notes of blatant lies. The meaning was the same: the Russian people do not need to know about the victories of their ancestors, the lot of the Russian people is “bastard thinking” and the need for constant repentance. And for that, we must repent - we were told literally from all the cracks emerged "alternative historians", who declared that it was their "works" that were the ultimate truth.

At the end of the 80, a curious little book by the British “Russian History Specialist,” John Lister Fennel, appears. In the USSR and Russia, it is known as the “Crisis of Medieval Russia. 1200-1304. To understand those "historical" ideas that were promoted by a British expert (now deceased), it is worth touching on his "analytics" of the events of the 18 pattern of April 1242 of the year. From the book of Mr. Fennel:

So ended what many historians call one of the greatest victories of the Russians in the 13th century: the crushing of the Teutonic Knights crusade against Novgorod and Pskov, the defeat of the Germans, the heroic defense of the western borders from papal aggression, the decisive turn in relations between Russia and the West, and so on. . (...) Was this victory so great? Was it a turning point in Russian history? Or is it just Metropolitan Kirill or someone else who wrote “Life” inflated the significance of Alexander’s victory in order to brighten Alexander’s enslaving slavery to the Tatars in the eyes of his contemporaries? As usual, the sources of that time do not help to answer such questions. (...) Alexander’s claim to present himself as a powerful defender of Russians against German and especially papal aggression from the west cannot be viewed with the seriousness with which many Soviet historians try, especially those who wrote during and immediately after World War II. ”


The phrase “Was this victory so great?” Speaks for itself. Liberal reviewers firmly grasped it, calling the work of a “British scientist” undeservedly ignored by Russian historians. And given the fact that after the appearance of such reviews, the work of Fennel reached even the school libraries, the process, as they say, went. Ice massacre by a whole detachment of liberal pseudo-historians (today they call themselves “free historians”) was described as “a local battle that had no national significance and didn’t solve anything, because Russia was still under foreign authority - in the power of the Horde”. And it was precisely these judgments that became almost decisive in the university environment of the new Russia - all the same ideas of defeatism and the need to repent for the fact that Alexander Nevsky "foolishly opposed the coming of Western civilization." The saddest thing is that quite a few historiographical opuses that reach the educational institutions libraries today also try to present the same interpretations that John Fennell presented in his time with admirers of his remote work.

One of the strikes against liberal pseudo-historical thought was inflicted in 1995, when it was decided to create a calendar of days of military glory in Russia. This calendar is based on the Federal Law No. 32 of 13 March 1995 of the year and included the victory day of the troops of Alexander Nevsky on Lake Peipsi - Ice Battle. And today we must pay tribute not only to the victory of the Russian army in 1242, but also to the victory of the authors of the initiative to create the calendar of the Days of Military Glory in the year 1995. Do not forget that these are the very 90, when the Russians with a double activity tried to deprive the historical memory of the heroic pages of the past.
Author:
Photos used:
http://encyclopedia.mil.ru
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  1. aszzz888
    aszzz888 April 18 2016 06: 12
    +67
    Whoever comes to us with a sword will die from the sword! This truth of life should be remembered by EVERYONE, our enemies and enemies! angry
    And the Russians on holiday! love
    1. Enot-poloskun
      Enot-poloskun April 18 2016 06: 19
      +56
      Introduced. Oil painting. Battle of the Ice - 2.

      In the role of the Teutonic Knights - Geyropeytsy and Americans. The master of the Livonian Order is black, looks like a monkey. The chief bishop is like one famous German woman. In the role of Pskov traitors - a rabbit Senya and a piglet Peter.
      1. brelok
        brelok April 18 2016 06: 27
        +39
        Quote: Enot-poloskun
        Introduced. Oil painting. Battle of the Ice - 2.

        In the role of the Teutonic Knights - Geyropeytsy and Americans. The master of the Livonian Order is black, looks like a monkey. The chief bishop is like one famous German woman. In the role of Pskov traitors - a rabbit Senya and a piglet Peter.

        And note that for hundreds of years, almost nothing has changed!
        1. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov April 18 2016 06: 47
          +11
          There were good times then. The defense of the Russian land and no liberals, communists, edrosov, opposition, and even hell knows who.
          1. ICT
            ICT April 18 2016 07: 16
            +18
            then ...., boyars, merchants, folk veche ..., and the horde

            everything is forever under a star named the Sun.
            1. _Vladislav_
              _Vladislav_ April 18 2016 11: 05
              +26
              HAPPY EVERYONE!

              As you can see, the story repeats itself. Even then, back in 1242, the ancient NATO (crusaders) tried to instill their influence and dictate to others what to do.
              Then the justification for interfering in the affairs of other states (ours in particular) was supposedly proclaimed by the popes, including later ones, which were carried out with the aim of converting the pagans of the Baltic states to Christianity and suppressing heretical and anti-clerical movements in Europe (and in those days Rome is today's Brussels). It seems to be a noble goal. If not one BUT. Do not flattery in a strange monastery with its own charter. The Tatars were enemies, but they did not plant their faith. The ancient NATO, however, insisted that their faith was the only correct one and, by and large, that it was necessary to turn everyone and everything into it.

              So Sasha Nevsky had to bathe in the icy water, the then representatives of the then North Atlantic Alliance.
              1. Diana Ilyina
                Diana Ilyina April 18 2016 13: 54
                +29
                Quote: _Vladislav_
                Do not flattery in a strange monastery with its own charter.

                So Sasha Nevsky had to bathe in the icy water, the then representatives of the then North Atlantic Alliance.


                Well, firstly, not "flattery", but "climb", from the word climb! And secondly, what kind of "Sashka Nevsky" he is to you, he is the Grand Duke and saint of the Russian Orthodox Church, Alexander Yaroslavovich Nevsky!

                And the rest is right! Who comes to us with a sword, from the sword and that ..., memento mori, instantly at sea, well, in this case, Lake Peipsi!
                1. _Vladislav_
                  _Vladislav_ April 18 2016 14: 53
                  +6
                  Quote: Diana Ilyina
                  What kind of "Sashka Nevsky" he is to you, he is the Grand Duke and saint of the Russian Orthodox Church, Alexander Yaroslavovich Nevsky!

                  I am so, in brotherly, in comradely.
                  Quote: Diana Ilyina
                  And the rest is right! Who comes to us with a sword, from the sword and that ..., memento mori, instantly at sea, well, in this case, Lake Peipsi!

                  It’s not so much about Lake Peipsi.
                  Simply, the story repeats itself over and over.
                  Ancient NATO. Then some Lyakhi. Then Napoleon, Hitler, etc. etc.
                  That is - in Europe, there is a pathological need to unite in some sort of Alliances, Unions and oppose, supposedly underdeveloped Russia, which supposedly, by any means, most likely wants to attack free Europe.

                  And in principle, this can be justified.
                  The European states, individually, are small countries that cannot live on their own, because they feel insecure. In a state where everyone is for himself, they either begin to fight each other, or someone comes from the side and crushes them under themselves.

                  By the way, an interesting point.
                  During the Crusades, Russia, albeit in a fragmented state, played the role of a buffer between Europe and the Tatars themselves. It is believed that the military organization of the Golden Horde at that time was significantly better than that of the ancient NATO.
                  1. Talgat
                    Talgat April 18 2016 17: 12
                    +5
                    I completely agree that history is repeating itself. The same is written by English geopolitics and our writers, even Gumilev, even Murad Aji, etc.

                    This confrontation between Europe (Livonians-Poles - Germans - NATO, etc.) and Eurasia (Attila, Horde with Nevsky, Russia, USSR, ...) is thousands of years old and there is no end

                    Moreover, the same peoples are fighting on both sides - the distant great-grandchildren of the Attila wars (the Slavs ancestors of the Russians also were part of that ancient army, along with the Alans and Huns - the ancestors of the steppes of Eurasia) again entered Europe in 1945
                  2. ver_
                    ver_ April 20 2016 05: 38
                    -2
                    ... the crusaders - the distributors of the Christianity faith planted by the Semites (Jesus the Hebrew) against Orthodoxy - Paganism .. The Slavs - glorified their Gods .. therefore they were called that ..
                2. asiat_61
                  asiat_61 April 19 2016 23: 11
                  0
                  About the Tatars, a strange statement.
              2. ioann1
                ioann1 April 20 2016 13: 10
                0


                As the Catholics again decided to take revenge.
                Olga Nikolaevna Chetverikova - Associate Professor of MGIMO, a specialist in the field of Catholicism.
          2. Darkness
            Darkness April 18 2016 07: 18
            +19
            There was no opposition? Yes, you're joking, go.
          3. igordok
            igordok April 18 2016 07: 38
            +28
            Quote: Alexander Romanov
            There were good times then. Protection of the Russian land and no liberals, communists, edrosov, opposition and hell knows who.

            You are mistaken. Remember the Hardened.
            1. nils
              nils April 18 2016 10: 53
              +15
              And then there was the Orthodox Faith among the Russian people.
              Before the battle, Alexander Nevsky strengthened his squad with the words filled with Faith: "God is not in power, but in truth. Some - with arms, others - on horses, but we will call on the name of our Lord our God! They hesitated and fell, but we rebelled and were firm ".

              Prince Dmitry Donskoy before the Battle of Kulikovo: "God is our refuge and strength! The hour of God's judgment is coming. An honest death is better than a shameful life! Conquer by this!"

              Generalissimo A. V. Suvorov: "Strengthen the Spirit in the Fatherly, Orthodox faith. To teach the unfaithful army - to sharpen the burnt iron. ...
              Atheism absorbs states and princes, faith, rights and morals. Behold hell, over which madness reigns even more at the end of the century. "
            2. g1v2
              g1v2 April 18 2016 11: 57
              +15
              It is interesting when the time of feudalism is trying to present from the point of view of modern concepts. Then there were no national states, but citizenship and vassalism. For Pskov - that the Prince of Novgorod, that the master of the Livonian Order or the Bishop of Derpt were just neighbor feudal lords. Today, the Pskovians could go to plunder the Estonians together with the Novgorodians, and tomorrow, with the knights, they could pluck the Novgorodians. And no one saw anything wrong with that. Feudalism, however. More or less, a national state in our country appeared only under Ivan the Terrible - before that it was just the Moscow principality, competing with other principalities.
            3. Ros 56
              Ros 56 April 19 2016 07: 24
              +2
              Well, these are our Navalny, Alekseevs, Mitrokhin and other Yabloko and any rabble from the fifth column. The current liberals are the descendants of those traitors.
          4. Roman 11
            Roman 11 April 18 2016 07: 55
            +13
            Quote: Alexander Romanov
            There were good times then. The defense of the Russian land and no liberals, communists, edrosov, opposition, and even hell knows who.

            Do not tell me, the constant inter-princely strife (still the outskirts of Kiev can not live with Russia), Yaropolk and others, how much blood shed our people? They brought the steppes to devastate our lands. And the boyar plots, the same A. Bogolyubsky, was poisoned. All this led to fragmentation into small principalities, inhibition of the development of trade, technology, construction, culture, religion, etc. Here is a record characteristic of the time in the annals: March 12, 1169, Kiev was taken by "spear" (attack). For two days, Suzdal, Smolensk and Polotsk robbed and burned the “mother Russian cities”. Many Kievites were taken prisoner. In monasteries and churches, soldiers took away not only jewelry, but also all holiness: icons, crosses, bells and vestments. "Metropolis" St. Sophia Cathedral was looted along with other churches. “And the speed in Kiev on all people is moaning and tight, and unhappable grief”
            1. ver_
              ver_ April 18 2016 08: 15
              +2
              ... Prince Andrei Bogolyubsky was crucified on the Bosphra as a robber by his own relatives for his "pious" deeds in 1185 ...
            2. V.ic
              V.ic April 18 2016 08: 24
              +15
              Quote: Novel 11
              the same A. Bogolyubsky was poisoned.

              Take a trip to the Vladimir-Suzdal land, visit Bogolyubov, there are still preserved buildings of that era, in particular the Church of the Intercession on the Nerl, and the chambers themselves, where killed the prince. The keykeeper Anbal stole the prince's sword, so Prince Andrei was chopped off by the conspirators, but they did not finish him off and he crawled out of the bedroom, took refuge under the stairs, where he was discovered on a bloody trail and was finally put to death. The prince died as a warrior and not as a drug addict, gorged toadstool.
              1. Darkness
                Darkness April 18 2016 08: 30
                -29%
                This death is not a warrior.
              2. ver_
                ver_ April 18 2016 09: 02
                +2
                ... fiction is just fiction ..
              3. Alexey-74
                Alexey-74 April 18 2016 16: 15
                +3
                But this is the correct version. A document on the study of the remains of A. Bogolyubsky and about his appearance (his mother was Polovian) is also interesting, a typical European who looks more like his grandfather ... and the pathologists described everything in detail about his death ...
            3. Nicholas C.
              Nicholas C. April 18 2016 10: 52
              +8
              Quote: Novel 11
              Here is a record in the annals characteristic of that time: on March 12, 1169, Kiev was taken by a “spear” (attack). For two days, Suzdal, Smolensk and Polotsk robbed and burned the “mother Russian cities”.

              Because this is an obvious Jesuit slander and propaganda, then I decided to look at the source [Ipatiev Chronicle, 1843]. Naturally, there is nothing about any "mother of Russian cities", on the contrary, Kiev at that moment is being defended, incl. not very Russian torques and berendeys.
              And why did you need to rig the Chernigovites on the plane, I can’t imagine wink

              PS. Some "filthy" churches were burning, although God preserved them [churches].
              1. sibiryouk
                sibiryouk April 19 2016 11: 14
                +1
                NO propaganda, read the Russian historian Karamzin, at that time there were internal wars and the princes seized land and cities from each other, killed the population and robbed! In general READ HISTORY!
                1. clidon
                  clidon April 19 2016 16: 05
                  0
                  It's just that such a story does not suit many. And it is already being rewritten hastily. And what was "really" very few people care about.
              2. Turkir
                Turkir April 19 2016 15: 47
                0
                Ipatiev Chronicle of 1187. (1843 is the year of the source.)
                According to Byzantine chronology, 6679-5508 = 1171 or 1170. The Byzantines used indicts, 15-year cycles.
                (Annian calendar or Alexandrian used by the Bulgarians 6679-5500 = 1179.)
            4. Roman 11
              Roman 11 April 18 2016 11: 50
              0
              Quote: Novel 11
              the same A. Bogolyubsky was poisoned.

              I confess, I forgot ...
            5. Roman 11
              Roman 11 April 18 2016 11: 50
              0
              Quote: Novel 11
              the same A. Bogolyubsky was poisoned.

              I confess, I forgot ...
          5. 0895055116
            0895055116 April 18 2016 08: 44
            +10
            You are wrong - and your own opposition, and your liberals, and your traitors, and your patriots - EVERYTHING was then called differently, BUT WERE. And so were the meanness and betrayal, and there was LOVE FOR THE HOMELAND - RUSSIA (RUSSIA) and HEROISM.
          6. kutuzow 1812
            kutuzow 1812 April 18 2016 10: 52
            +4
            The reason for the hatred of the West towards RUSSIA is that it (RUSSIA) is not bent. Whom did the RUSSIANS beat and the horde, the Swedes, Lithuanians, Poles, Teutons, Turks and so on, here they are infuriated from weakness.
          7. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA April 18 2016 14: 45
            +2
            Quote: Alexander Romanov
            There were good times then. Protection of the Russian land and no liberals, communists, edrosov, opposition
            Icy and still hell knows who.

            But there is a veche, which, against the background of the transition of Pskov to the arm of the Order and the movement of orders on Novgorod itself, makes a decision ... on the expulsion of the prince. That’s such protection of the Russian land, you panim ... laughing
          8. svp67
            svp67 April 18 2016 15: 21
            +2
            Quote: Alexander Romanov
            There were good times.

            Times are always the same, we just live in this time now ...
            Quote: Alexander Romanov
            Protection of the Russian land and no liberals, communists, edrosov, opposition

            Icy and still hell knows who.

            Here you are wrong, THIS was more than enough then, it was not for nothing that Alexander was twice pointed out in Novgorod that "the way is open for him." That in Novgorod, that in Pskov there were enough of those who were ready to join the then West, remember that Pskov, thanks to the betrayal of the top of the City, opened the gates to the Livonians and Alexander had to drive them out. [Center]
            1. ioann1
              ioann1 April 20 2016 13: 15
              0


              Watch and do not be horrified.
          9. Alexey-74
            Alexey-74 April 18 2016 16: 07
            +2
            The then merchants and boyars were still those Euro-integrators ..... the ancestors of modern liberals and oligarchs ....
          10. Ancient hun
            Ancient hun April 19 2016 15: 11
            0
            There were, there were "their own liberals" ... how boring without traitors! laughing
            And there were traitors, as always, who fled to the enemy ... there were - "worms", sharpening from the inside!
          11. Aksakal_07
            Aksakal_07 April 19 2016 16: 55
            +1
            The main luck for Russia at that time was that it was not in the power of the Romanovs.
            And the communists started a great "red project" and succeeded a lot, if not for the quiet "orange revolution" in the form of "glasnost and perestroika" ...
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. Vitwin
        Vitwin April 18 2016 07: 00
        +6
        Quote: Enot-poloskun
        Introduced. Oil painting. Battle of the Ice - 2.

        In the role of the Teutonic Knights - Geyropeytsy and Americans. The master of the Livonian Order is black, looks like a monkey. The chief bishop is like one famous German woman. In the role of Pskov traitors - a rabbit Senya and a piglet Peter.

        What did not continue, their bold analogies? And ahead, Russian rati, on a dashing horse, Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin fellow
        This is how the composition looks more complete))
      4. vlade99
        vlade99 April 18 2016 07: 17
        +6
        Quote: Enot-poloskun
        Senya rabbit and Peter the Little Pig

        More like a cheap cartoon. But, seriously, how liberalstermocrats did not iron our history and education - our blood did not turn into a Muhdonald drink. We’ll tear everyone who goes to us and bites the liberals.
        1. Svidetel 45
          Svidetel 45 April 21 2016 00: 10
          0
          Wouldn’t it be disgusting to have such shit?
      5. The comment was deleted.
      6. ism_ek
        ism_ek April 18 2016 19: 27
        +1
        And nobody is confused by the fact that the anniversary of the "Battle on the Ice" began to be celebrated only after the release of Eisenstein's film? He spent his childhood in Riga, because of his nationality he was persecuted, so he made a film about stupid Latvians.
        The wars between the Livonian Order and Novgorod lasted until Ivan the Terrible. Noteworthy is the Battle of Rakovors in 1268, which was significantly larger in scale than the Battle of the Ice.
        In general, the Levon Order was weak and did not present any particular danger to Russia. On the other hand, Russia could grind its many stone fortresses only by uniting into a single state.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. siberalt
      siberalt April 18 2016 07: 11
      +9
      Don't give a damn about the liberal "sources". The main thing is how it will be written in our school textbooks. No one will understand who is driving our education, not even the president. We launched the "lapdog" and we are stamping "blanks" in schools, and in higher education institutions "Euro-procurement", without understanding where to insert them further.
      1. nov_tech.vrn
        nov_tech.vrn April 18 2016 13: 34
        +9
        I don’t give a damn here is the defense of Kirill Alexandrov’s doctoral dissertation “Generals and officer cadres of the armed formations of the Committee for the Liberation of the Peoples of Russia 1943-1946.” KONR, recall, is the ideological and organizational core of the Russian Liberation Army, in other words, the Vlasov movement.
        The author wrote several books about the Vlasovites and a Ph.D. thesis.
        Aleksandrov is already familiar to the scientific community as a person who has his own point of view. It comes down to consistent anti-Stalinism. In this, he is close to the famous Moscow historian Andrei Zubov, with the scandal dismissed from MGIMO.
        In collaboration with Zubov, Alexandrov released a book. Like Zubov, he was a member of the People’s Labor Union, an anti-Soviet emigrant organization that publishes the Posev and Grani magazines. The predecessors of the NTS during the Second World War, by the way, were close to Vlasov.
        This historian made stories for the Russian service “Radio Lithuania” and the Vilnius newspaper “Assistance”, defended the Sejm of Lithuania in January 1991 and the Mariinsky Palace in August 1991, then taught at St. Petersburg schools, worked in the encyclopedic department of the Institute of Philological Studies of St. Petersburg State University, good practice right? When defending, Aleksandrov’s supporters went all over the institute, and opponents - several Petersburg and Moscow scientists, members of veteran organizations.
        Further expert opinions:
        Nikita Lomagin, Aleksandrov’s official opponent: “The author showed respect for the history and independence of the past.”
        Alexei Plotnikov, professor at the Higher School of Economics: “The dissertation is an example of a crudely worked out ideological campaign. The significance of Aleksandrov’s scientific research tends to zero. The dissertation looks weak, flawed, simply untenable. ”
        St. Petersburg Public Organization of War, Labor, Armed Forces and Law Enforcement Veterans: “On the pages of the abstract do not meet such concepts as“ treason ”,“ military honor ”,“ patriotism ”... The author does his best to whitewash Vlasov and present him as a victim of political process, justifies betrayal of military duty and oath.
        Mikhail Frolov, professor at Pushkin State University, 91-year-old participant of the war: "The dissertation serves to destroy the memory of the great Victory, the 70th anniversary of which Russia has recently celebrated popularly."
        Vladimir Chernyaev, Leading Researcher, St. Petersburg Institute of RAS: “The author showed scientific courage, was not afraid to look into the eyes of a complex historical problem. In the dissertation there is no glorification of Nazism and Hitler. The dissident, on the contrary, impedes attempts to falsify history through the rehabilitation of Stalin. ”
        Central Archive of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation: “One-sided, tendentious and careless in the presentation of sources research.”
        Vladlen Izmozik, historian of censorship, professor of the Bonch-Bruevich St. Petersburg State University of Economics, “For me personally, Vlasov and his entourage are antipodes, they are unpleasant for me. But the conversation is now about the future of historical science. What should she be? Is it necessary again to drive history into rigid ideological frameworks and beat those who express the slightest doubt with a club on the head? History must remain the work of the historians themselves. The cadaverous poison of the Stalinist ideological campaigns is still felt, unfortunately. "
        At 22.30 p.m., the dissertation council of the St. Petersburg Institute of History of the Russian Academy of Sciences awarded Aleksandrov the degree of Doctor of Sciences: with 17 votes in favor, one against, without abstaining. THE FINISH!!! The next opus became a scientific dissertation, but not the worst, but the SPbII RAS, this enemy is much more dangerous than a bunch of non-systemic opposition, this is the fifth column that slowly gnaws on a piece and perverts our history, and gives rise to mankurts.
        1. avva2012
          avva2012 April 18 2016 16: 22
          +6
          Quote: nov_tech.vrn The dissertation council of the St. Petersburg Institute of History of the Russian Academy of Sciences awarded Aleksandrov the degree of Doctor of Sciences: with 17 votes - for, one - against, without abstaining. THE FINISH!!!

          VI Ulyanov-Lenin, said, "the intelligentsia is not the brain of the nation, but Mr.."
          What can I add?
          "From a functional point of view, the intelligentsia is just a cost, a waste of the production of thinking in the course of evolution. This is not a marriage as such, it is just remnants of material that turned out to be useless. That is, the intelligentsia, in comparison with thinking people, is exactly the same thing as is Mr. in relation to food. " : http://banguerski-alex.livejournal.com/166568.html
          1. UNFAMILIAR
            UNFAMILIAR April 18 2016 23: 18
            +1
            Quote: avva2012
            . I. Ulyanov-Lenin, said, "the intelligentsia is not the brain of the nation, but Mr.".
            What can I add?
            "From a functional point of view, the intelligentsia is just a cost, a waste of the production of thinking in the course of evolution. This is not a marriage as such, it is just a remnant of material that turned out to be unusable. That is, the intelligentsia, in comparison with thinking people, is exactly the same thing as is Mr. in relation to food. " : http://banguerski-alex.livejournal.com/166568.htm

            Again pseudocytes from the Internet? laughing
            1. avva2012
              avva2012 April 19 2016 06: 25
              0
              Quote: UNKNOWN Again pseudocytes from the Internet?

              Even if V.I. Lenin did not say such a thing, but essentially true.
              nov_tech.vrn, such intellectuals and described in his commentary. I add that in the dissertation of Aleksandrov, there is not a single mention of the Great Patriotic War. There are no such words!
              This pork tapeworm believes that he is entitled to such "research". For people like him, living in the intestines, there was no Great Patriotic War, this is a fact.
    4. EvgNik
      EvgNik April 18 2016 07: 19
      +23
      Quote: aszzz888
      Whoever comes to us with a sword will die from the sword!

      So and only so!
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. UNFAMILIAR
        UNFAMILIAR April 19 2016 00: 05
        +1
        Quote: EvgNik
        So and only so!

        Or maybe it’s the only way to leave it for schoolchildren (out of respect for themselves, who at times formed the Russian state thought in the Russian Empire and the USSR), and for us adults to know a little more and still love our Motherland, whatever it would be, because children are not shown, well, normal parents, pornography or naturalistic reports from the fronts, an adult can be proud of his country in all its manifestations, despite any level of development in a particular historical era!
        To reduce Alexander Yaroslavovich to the Battle of the Ice and the Battle of the Neva is like taking Lomonosov as a fist fighter (he was healthy and loved this thing in his youth). Its main role is voluntary entry into the confederal state of the Golden Horde, it is difficult for the consciousness of the Great Russian to feel in the past ... the BSSR, moreover, tormented by the Ukrainian SSR (the Kazan Khanate, however, is not forbidden to fight back), and also no provision on the state border neighbors and internal opponents and households. activities myself ... myself, only a small tax and approval that you are the boss. The more pride in how Moscow ascended, and then Petersburg (and after all, competitors in Eastern Europe, including by this time, are not included in any state , it was enough), the more understandable the role played by Ivan III and Ivan IV, and in general, to understand “why we are as we are?”, the reader for schoolchildren does not give this to a thinking person.
    5. Bobxnumx
      Bobxnumx April 18 2016 07: 24
      +15
      ETERNAL GLORY AND MEMORY OF THE GREAT WAR !!! hi
    6. volot-voin
      volot-voin April 18 2016 09: 27
      +2
      Quote: aszzz888
      Who comes to us with a sword - from the sword and perdition

      No to the European Union !!! Decisive and uncompromising, civilizers under the ice ... this is our way.
      Happy Holidays!
      1. Pavel Tsybai
        Pavel Tsybai April 18 2016 10: 13
        +2
        One wiseacre rebuilt the story, so now they are smart, judging by the comments.
    7. SveTok
      SveTok April 18 2016 10: 48
      +2
      It will not be possible to erase the significance of this or that victory of our grandfathers and great-grandfathers; these victories are stored at the genetic level deeply and if a similar situation arises, we are able to apply the experience of our ancestors to protect Russian interests.
    8. Alexey-74
      Alexey-74 April 18 2016 16: 04
      +2
      And now, after 774 years, battles are going on, in another field of information ... but as you know, who is losing the information war can lose the real one ... so Happy friends !!!
    9. Persistent
      Persistent April 19 2016 18: 56
      0
      A joke ... hi

      April 5, 1242 after the Battle of the Ice Alexander Nevsky sent his soldiers to catch fish for fish soup, since the ice of Lake Peipsi was all in the holes ....
      - Do not bite! In the morning they fed too much! - complained to Nevsky the heroes who returned after a while with nothing. laughing
  2. parusnik
    parusnik April 18 2016 06: 17
    +4
    Glorious date in our history ..
    1. Nikolay K
      Nikolay K April 18 2016 09: 27
      +2
      Today is April 18 (April April 5)

      Authors who pretend to write historical articles would be good to understand elementary, for example, the rules for transferring dates from the old style to the new. The difference in 13 days was at the time of the calendar change. The older the date, the smaller the difference. Learn Julian and Gregorian Calendars
  3. Shiva83483
    Shiva83483 April 18 2016 06: 19
    +10
    As for me, Alexander Nevsky gave an example to all subsequent generations - how to deal with uninvited "guests" on our land. What our ancestors successfully demonstrated in the future ... but the trouble is, the overseas "guests" are either stupid, or unlearned and deranged ... the lessons do not benefit them, with his modern vision of the plan, corporal Hitler "Drang nah ost" They won't calm down ... but it's time ... because they have nothing to catch from US, except for death ... And therefore, the rolls are not time to relax, in principle, a mustache like a usehda. Here!
    1. Darkness
      Darkness April 18 2016 07: 17
      +4
      Svyatoslav gave an example of how to prevent enemies from entering Russian soil. Beat the first!
      1. Roman 11
        Roman 11 April 18 2016 08: 35
        +8
        Quote: Darkness
        An example was given by Svyatoslav

        Igorevich? The one who was in a siege in Dorostol Danube? In my heart, and in fact, there was a conqueror, a well-trained squad with the governor Sveneld, if I am not mistaken .... Here I will add a purely personal opinion: this army was the most professional and strongest in the history of ancient Russia! Nevsky had motley ratios, a lot of militia (militia), Donsky also had a heterogeneous motley, almost all centralized Russia, a numerically huge army.

        Svyatoslav Igorevich had a monolithic, selective, forged army. All Byzantine troops could not cope with it. Only the weakened army of the Pechenegs from the ambush could defeat, and even then, the exact data about the battle are unknown. They only claim that the prince died in battle. And he would have listened to Sveneld, would have returned home, though then again there would have been hiking.
        1. Darkness
          Darkness April 18 2016 09: 42
          +2
          Who knows, how the history of Russia would have turned, had Svyatoslav remained alive.
          1. Heimdall47
            Heimdall47 April 18 2016 10: 51
            -10%
            It’s clear how - they would walk in silk footcloths ... Sheep was cut before Perun. Grace - you would get up in the morning, slaughtered a rooster, his corners in the house with blood and his face smeared and forward to work laughing
            1. vik14025
              vik14025 April 18 2016 13: 01
              0
              and what is bad?
          2. Roman 11
            Roman 11 April 18 2016 12: 04
            +2
            Quote: Darkness
            Who knows, how the history of Russia would have turned, had Svyatoslav remained alive.

            Bulgaria would have been tidied up by all means, a hefty Pereslavets sunk into his soul ...... But without Nevsky it would have been gloomy, just needed a leader who knew how to unite, and Novgorod liberals (often not a principality, but a republic) considering them merchant and commercial deviation, each sought to individual benefit - hence the constant veche and the change of clans of the boyars. In that atmosphere, it was fraught.
            1. ver_
              ver_ April 20 2016 15: 38
              0
              ... his father Yaroslav Vsevolodovich = John Kalita was cooler than him ..
        2. Bully
          Bully April 18 2016 11: 40
          0
          Quote: Novel 11
          And he would have listened to Sveneld, would have returned home, though then again there would have been hikes.


          From the epic "About the Russian hero Volga Ivanovich and the werewolf Sveneld - Santal Zhidovinovich"

          Treason at the rapids

          “Here, Sveneld, and we reached Kiev. Only the rapids were left and dragged. A Pecheneg sits on the thresholds, its close one does not know death. I will go with a small army along the trail, I will lure the Pechenegoin with weakness, I will start the battle with him at the plows with prey. You are an ambush regiment, with all your strength, go around the Pechenegs along the shore, wait for the horns, my signal, and strike the shit from the sun. ”

          Everything fell silent in the morning damp, bloody flashes flared up, the prince pulled his plows with prey, a tribute that the treacherous voloks gave. They reported to the filthy Pecheneg that the planes were coming with a small squad, the prince fell into the trap of Sveneldov, as was agreed with the Romans. The Pecheneg’s eyes flared up on the wealth of the Tsar’s squads, the Horde cavalry rushed with a screech, one hundred filthy for every Russian.

          The Fight Svyatoslav began, as is said, accepted the battle of the plows with the booty. The Russians bristled with spears, set the plows outpost, throw red-hot arrows in the cavalry, chopped on foot with damask swords. Svyatoslav beats in the first superintendents, where he waved his sword - cut the street, waved off - another lane. He sees that the whole Pecheneg cavalry turned its back on the clear sun. The prince blows silver into the battle horn, repeats his agreed signal.

          But the vigilantes do not hear the signal, and beyond the far mountain they are set up by the cunning Sveneld traitor. Waiting for a signal until late in the evening, without waiting, we went to Kiev. The insidious varangin convinced them that, probably, the prince was already in Kiev, since there was no conditional signal: “I didn’t dare attack the Pecheneg on the Grand Duke warrior. And the prince feasts with a small retinue in the chambers of white-stone already. ”
          1. Cartalon
            Cartalon April 18 2016 11: 46
            0
            Bylin themselves wrote, or which of the friends?
            1. avva2012
              avva2012 April 18 2016 11: 56
              +5
              Quote: Cartalon Bylin themselves wrote, or which of the friends?

              The most important thing here: Santal Zhidovinovich laughing
              Do you feel where the dog rummaged? Without them, no way.
              But, in general, when did they begin to consider epics as historical documents?
              I remember, some comrades wrote such epics, you will admire. "I am writing to you, dear on the corpse of a Chinese intelligence officer ....". wassat
              1. Bully
                Bully April 18 2016 13: 47
                0
                Quote: avva2012
                The most important thing here: Santal Zhidovinovich laughing
                Do you feel where the dog rummaged? Without them, no way.

                Here, as they say, "You can't throw words out of a song." Well, what to do if in Russia that was the name of the well-known sly-assed types. By the way, read N.V. Gogol, this name is often found in his works. laughing
          2. Roman 11
            Roman 11 April 18 2016 12: 24
            0
            Quote: Bully
            From the epic "About the Russian hero Volga Ivanovich and the werewolf Sveneld - Santal Zhidovinovich"

            Bullshit is, not epic .... translated into a modern-census of history. Sveneld is next to the prince on all trips when he was still a child. Why did you survive? It can be repeated - there is no exact data on the battle on the Dnieper. Probably the Pechenegs broke our advanced units on the boats and, recognizing the killed prince, left the battle, taking advantage of the hitch after the death of Svyatoslav and the troops not ready for battle (they did not have time to reorganize and organize order).

            But better to the Battle of the Ice.
            1. Bully
              Bully April 18 2016 13: 27
              0
              Quote: Novel 11
              Bullshit is, not epic .... translated into a modern-census of history. Sveneld is next to the prince on all trips when he was still a child

              Bullshit is a slurred official version of the death of Svyatoslav. Was she official three hundred years ago? That is the question. There is at least a logical explanation of how a talented commander ended up in such an ass. By the way, the prince, like his sister Volga, was brought up by Volga's father, voivode Pretic (Ivan Khazarin). One must be more modest in one's judgment, however.
        3. Cartalon
          Cartalon April 18 2016 11: 45
          0
          Why are you forged armored boats on odnoderevki and if the Byzantines could not cope, why does the agreement look like surrender?
      2. Heimdall47
        Heimdall47 April 18 2016 08: 46
        +2
        Svyatoslav gave an example of how to prevent enemies from entering Russian soil. Beat the first!

        And the fact that he sold the Slavs into slavery to the Greeks - is this also an example?
        1. Roman 11
          Roman 11 April 18 2016 09: 08
          0
          Quote: Heimdall47
          And the fact that he sold the Slavs into slavery to the Greeks - is this also an example?

          And who were these Slavs? Can we know after 1100 years all the nuances?
          1. Heimdall47
            Heimdall47 April 18 2016 09: 21
            -4
            And who were these Slavs? Can we know after 1100 years all the nuances?

            And who do you think are traitors and traitors to the motherland? Public Enemies? smile Then those were still not enough. And the export of slaves was the main source of income for Russia. Slavic / Finnish slaves wagons (boats) every spring were taken to Greek markets. Hunting for people was one of the main occupations of Russia.
            So we will not make a touching face over Svyatoslav and his relatives.
            We can only know what the sources of that time reported. If you do not trust them, then there’s nothing to talk about at all - including Svyatoslav’s campaigns.
            1. Darkness
              Darkness April 18 2016 09: 42
              +4
              Surrenders, you're lying, dear man.
              1. Heimdall47
                Heimdall47 April 18 2016 09: 53
                +2
                Explain then, countryman.
                Svyatoslav says that in Pereyaslavets on the Danube, where "all good things converge", from Russia comes "quickly and wax and honey and servants"- the servants - who is this?
                Convicted under article 58?
                1. Roman 11
                  Roman 11 April 18 2016 12: 40
                  +1
                  Quote: Heimdall47
                  who is it?
                  Convicted under article 58?

                  You never know who, since ..... it could be ordinary robbers, prisoners of war, who often (constantly) came to rob Russia abroad.

                  And then, again, when it comes to literally verbatim, it begins to alarm.

                  But it’s better to go to the Battle of Ice, it’s more understandable - the enemy attacked, we fought back.
                  1. Come on
                    Come on April 19 2016 05: 27
                    -1
                    Then people were sold like sheep, everywhere Russia, or those territories that Russia is now, is no exception. Well, up to the abolition of serfdom ..
            2. Gray brother
              Gray brother April 18 2016 09: 52
              +3
              Quote: Heimdall47
              Slavic / Finnish slaves wagons (boats) every spring were taken to Greek markets. Hunting for people was one of the main occupations of Russia.

              Yes, my friend, chase.
              1. Heimdall47
                Heimdall47 April 18 2016 09: 57
                +2
                Yes, this, dear, I’m not driving, but the sources. You present them.

                The slave hunting season began in April, with the completion of the man-watering season. On the Dnieper, Don, Volga and their tributaries, fast-moving Russian boats were rushing. Persian historian of the XNUMXth century Gardisi writes that the Russians "attack the Slavs, drive up to them on ships, land, take them prisoner." The ruthlessness of the Russ in robbery and robbery is noted by all medieval authors. The German Helmold (XII century), for example, says that the Pomor Slavs in general "were born a ferocity, insatiable, indomitable, which caused the death of the surrounding peoples, on land and at sea." But the ruddy (the inhabitants of the island of Rügen, the indigenous Baltic Rus) were glorious in that "they even do not spare their [Slavs]." The Slavic suppliers for the Kievan Rus were those Slavic tribes to whom the custom of polyudy (mainly the Krivichi and Vyatichi), as well as the Volga Finno-Ugric peoples, had not yet spread.
                1. Gray brother
                  Gray brother April 18 2016 10: 42
                  +2
                  Quote: Heimdall47
                  , indigenous Baltic Russia

                  . Persian historian of the XNUMXth century Guardisi

                  German Helmold (XII century.)

                  Ashe there people with doggies live.
                  Since when did the Vikings become Slavs? Nobody still knows who they are.

                  And everything is straightforward for you. Well I say - drive.

                  Nestor writes about them as a separate people, the Varangians are called the Varangians, as the nations listed below, among which along with Russia (the alleged Rurik tribe) are Svei (Swedes), Normans (Norwegians), English and Goths (Scotts and, possibly, Crimean Goths, as well as Goths, assimilated by the peoples of the Khazars, and then by the Polovtsy (Cumans)): Idosh across the sea to the Varangian, to Russia. Vice boom, you’re the Varangians of Russia, as all friends are called sveta, friends of the same Urmani, Anglyan, Ingy and Gotha, taco and si. Noteworthy is the presence of the same peoples, along with the Vikings, in the list of Japheth’s descendants: Afetovo, however, the number is too: Varyazi, svei, Urmane, Gothѣ, Rus, Aglane…
                  1. Heimdall47
                    Heimdall47 April 18 2016 10: 58
                    0
                    Since when did the Vikings become Slavs? Nobody still knows who they are.

                    You do not distort. I also do not know who the Vikings are. And no one knows who Russia is. But there is clear evidence that this Russia traded in slaves. Including Slavic.
                    And to steal the evidence of numerous historians will not work. Do not like German sources - there are Persian ones. Do not like Persian - there are Arab. There is Nestor in the end who cites Svyatoslav about the servants.
                    And if they all do not suit you (why?), Then what do you focus on in general - the Slavic-Aryan Vedas? laughing
                    1. Gray brother
                      Gray brother April 18 2016 11: 12
                      0
                      Quote: Heimdall47
                      that this Russia was trading in slaves.

                      Kiev or what? In the 11-12 centuries was Kiev. What do you call Russia in general?
                      1. Heimdall47
                        Heimdall47 April 18 2016 11: 19
                        +1
                        Kiev or what? In the 11-12 centuries was Kiev. What do you call Russia in general?

                        Can you read? Take the author you are interested in - here is Ibn Rust for example (an oriental scholar-encyclopedist of the 1st half of the XNUMXth century). And look about what time he wrote. Read the comments on its text.
                        What is Russia - I have no right to impose my opinion on anyone. I believe you have your own.
                      2. Gray brother
                        Gray brother April 18 2016 11: 32
                        +1
                        Quote: Heimdall47
                        - here is Ibn Rust for example

                        Or a German, what thread is it? laughing
                        They fought a lot then, the Polovtsy, again, raided - they all took prisoners.
                        For whom it was impossible to get a ransom - they sold it.
                        What makes you think that this is the main source of income? All these scientists did not live in those places about which they wrote - this is called heard a ringing, but does not know where he is.
                      3. Heimdall47
                        Heimdall47 April 18 2016 11: 37
                        +3
                        Or a German, what thread is it? laughing

                        Nestor is a chronicler.
                        Here he puts the following words into the mouth of Svyatoslav:
                        to Pereyaslavets on the Danube, where "all good things converge", from Russia comes "swiftness and wax and honey and servants"

                        Who is the servitor? And why does it come from Russia, and not from the Wild Field, Khazaria, or where else? I asked the citizen of Darkness, but he is silent. Thinks probably smile
                        By the way - why can't we trust the Arab historian? In addition, he seems to be not an Arab, but a Central Asian.
                        They wanted to discredit the Russians already then? Did you work on these "impudent Saxons"? laughing
                      4. Gray brother
                        Gray brother April 18 2016 12: 10
                        0
                        Quote: Heimdall47
                        Khazars

                        What else is Khazaria? She, by this time, was gone, but the nomads climbed the "Wild Field" who just respected this business very much.
                        It is strange that your Asian did not write about this.
                        The source of slavery is captivity, and captured during the war. This is not business, but trophies, it cannot be said that the principalities of Russia lived off the slave trade, as you write.
                        They could sell, they could plant on their land. Could take for debts or crimes in slavery.
                        Prince Roman Galitsky generally caught Litvin so much that his local population was awesome.
                      5. Heimdall47
                        Heimdall47 April 18 2016 12: 25
                        0
                        What else is Khazaria?

                        The one that Svyatoslav defeated. It is very convenient to consider it as a source of slaves. But since you do not wish, I will repeat the question
                        Who is this servitor and why exactly from Russia?
                        The source of slavery is captivity, and captured during the war

                        The war at that time was in Bulgaria, but it is written that from Russia.
                        Could pick up for debts or crimes of slavery

                        What - only in Russia, and not in occupied Bulgaria or the defeated Khazaria?
                        Can you clearly answer without Roman Galitsky and verbiage?
                      6. Gray brother
                        Gray brother April 18 2016 13: 18
                        +1
                        Quote: Heimdall47
                        , but it is written that from Russia.

                        Basurman caught the Slavs - from Russia, the Slavs caught the basurman - from Russia, the people of Vladimir sent to Suzdal - from Russia.
                        Ibn Rust smoked a hookah and wrote down - from Russia.
                      7. Heimdall47
                        Heimdall47 April 18 2016 13: 25
                        0
                        Everything is clear - I have no more questions
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. RUSS
            RUSS April 18 2016 14: 00
            +2
            Quote: Gray Brother
            Kiev or what? In the 11-12 centuries was Kiev.

            Kievan Rus is the name given by our contemporaries, now by the way this name was removed from the textbooks on the History of Russia and now Kievan Rus is officially called the Old Russian State.
          4. Gray brother
            Gray brother April 18 2016 19: 45
            0
            Quote: RUSS
            Kievan Rus is officially called the Old Russian State.

            Yes, there was no state. In Kiev, the coolest lads simply sat and partially subordinated the surrounding lads, and before that, the central havira was in Novgorod.
            Statehood, as such, had already left Moscow when Dmitry Donskoy laid down a new center of power by starting the distribution of stars, elephants and gingerbread.
            He introduced a topic on which the princes of the Moscow land were obliged to live in Moscow, and not to poke around their districts, i.e. it could already be called a capital with some stretch.
          5. Turkir
            Turkir April 19 2016 15: 54
            0
            Kievan Rus is just a scientific term denoting a certain period of time. And then many people think that the inhabitants of that Russia called themselves Kiev Rus. And when the capital was in Vladimir - Vladimir Russia.
      3. avva2012
        avva2012 April 18 2016 11: 18
        +1
        Quote: Heimdall47 I also do not know who the Vikings are. And no one knows who Russia is. But there is clear evidence that this Russia traded in slaves. Including Slavic.
        And to steal the evidence of numerous historians will not work. Do not like German sources - there are Persian ones. Do not like Persian - there are Arab.

        I also don’t like a lot of things in history. And now what. Russian, and then Soviet historians agree that Russia, at that time, should not be associated with a modern understanding of Russia. Something else, it was an education that had no relation to the Russians (Slavs). The name itself has more to do with the Finno-Ugric language group than with the Slavic one. And they traded slaves nobly. I honestly do not understand what the argument is about. The Scandinavians, at a certain historical time, were very serious warriors. So what? Where are these Scandinavians now? Russia ground all and laid the foundation of the Empire. There is something to be proud of.
        1. Heimdall47
          Heimdall47 April 18 2016 11: 22
          +1
          I honestly do not understand what the argument is about. The Scandinavians, at a certain historical time, were very serious warriors. So what? Where are these Scandinavians now? Russia ground all and laid the foundation of the Empire. There is something to be proud of.

          I agree with you very much. But people have their own rainbow-colored ideas, for which they hold fast even without having any reason for it.
        2. avva2012
          avva2012 April 18 2016 11: 49
          +1
          Quote: Heimdall47 I agree with you very much. But people have their own rainbow-colored ideas, for which they hold fast even without having any reason for it.

          I don't really understand this "rainbow view". There is archaeological evidence of the presence of the Scandinavians on the territory, there are chronicle sources of which you are talking. In response, there is only one argument, "the Germans have corrected our whole history." Sorry, but those Germans who were under Elizabeth or Catherine the Great are not the current liberals from the European Union. Other times, different customs. As a result, many "Germans" became great discoverers, military leaders, and engineers. In short, the great Russians. Why such an attitude towards historians is not clear.
          This is just a long-standing debate between the two trends in historiography.
    2. Roman 11
      Roman 11 April 18 2016 13: 25
      +1
      Quote: Heimdall47
      there are persian.

      Yeah, that Persian just turned out to be a witness when two tribes quarreled along the Babsky line (sometimes there is a leader of one tribe, village, village, locality, etc., he snatched the girl he liked from another - hence the conflict, its own truth, power decisions, blood revenge, etc.), or the leaders of neighboring tribes, lands, etc. they didn’t divide the spoils on a general military campaign, or the same thing, or another, but not in the relations of the leaders, but of ordinary commoners - artisans, paharas, hunters, etc. Hence the enmity escalated into massacre, carnage, brawl, beating, etc. And here the Persian enjoyed the natural beauty of the land here - what he saw could clearly affect the general spoiled impressions of the land and its people. By the way, the massacre in those days among unorganized tribes of the law could not be so rare, especially far away from cities, princely orders, with pagan gods different for the tribes, etc.
      It must be suspected that discipline was 100% absent among other nations, not very civilized. And even heavily civilized countries are occasionally shaken by rebellions and civil wars. Until recently, it was quiet in Europe, and now it’s not so calm ....... and the economy worsens (they pump out all their bowels), they are starving - who knows what will happen to them civilized (enlightened)?

      So, then the Arab got lost in our forests and met with a gang of robbers, they robbed him, and before that he had just read the Persian books about tribes in Russia and everything was very harmonious in context. In addition, a drunken Goth remembered that after the storm he was not very comfortable with the islanders, and he decided to rank this tribe under one comb, because I remembered that I had read a book about some Slavs, but maybe I didn’t read it, and so I heard. So much for the truth about our progenitors, should I add that even earlier our ancestors even jumped through the trees ...... or did they immediately come from civilized space?
    3. Roman 11
      Roman 11 April 18 2016 14: 01
      +1
      Quote: Heimdall47
      And if they all do not suit you (why?), Then what do you focus on in general - the Slavic-Aryan Vedas?

      On the rewritten history of the tribe of great dill. Not a quarter of a century has passed, and they have turned everything upside down. Sources of 300-1000 years or more can be credible after that?
  4. ver_
    ver_ April 18 2016 14: 19
    +1
    ... Varangian - not local, who arrived from another locality ..
    Example - Khan Eney Rurik Varyag the Trojan .. Arrived from Troy at the invitation of the local elite (invited
    princes) Khan's clan representative for the formation of a new dynasty of Emperors (Troy-the capital of the Empire fell and was destroyed ..)
  • Berendey
    Berendey April 18 2016 10: 58
    +2
    Persian historian of the XI century. Gardizi writes ..., the German Helmold (XII century), for example, says ... Good arguments. Yes, today, reading the modern statements of the current "overseas writers" you will not find "10 differences" from those distant: ... the Russians "attack the Slavs" (Ukraine), Russians "in general" are innate ferocity, insatiable, indomitable "- interceptions are carried out" dangerously and not professionally ", and indeed, a" regional power "! Believe it?
    1. Heimdall47
      Heimdall47 April 18 2016 11: 01
      +1
      Good arguments. Yes, today, reading the modern statements of the current "overseas writers" you will not find "10 differences"

      We have no others. Do you only believe in your Wishlist?
      Give arguments where Russia is fluffy and white, embroiders towels with beads. I look forward to it.
      There is still Yaroslav's truth, where the segregation of Rusyns from the Slavs is registered, which also has a certain argument.
      Russians "in general" have innate ferocity, insatiable, indomitable "- the interceptions are carried out" dangerously and not professionally ", and indeed," a regional power "! Do you believe?

      By the way, I believe. This is quite normal and typical of men - "ferocity, indomitable ..", etc. Better than walking around with a bow around your neck and marrying men in church with each other. smile
      1. Svidetel 45
        Svidetel 45 April 21 2016 00: 36
        0
        And you want to believe yours.
  • Svidetel 45
    Svidetel 45 April 21 2016 00: 28
    0
    Well, if the German said it, Helmold, then it is, of course, the holy truth, especially for our liberals, they pray to such sources as savages to idols.
    1. Heimdall47
      Heimdall47 April 21 2016 12: 37
      0
      and, especially for our liberals, they pray to such sources as savages to idols

      Let your sources lay out. We will pray for them. Only you do not have a shisha - one chatter and disgrace.
  • Roman 11
    Roman 11 April 18 2016 12: 32
    0
    Quote: Heimdall47
    If you do not trust them, then there’s nothing to talk about at all - including Svyatoslav’s campaigns.

    It is categorical, but controversial - the sources are different, because there could be envious people ...... If the inventory of "fine details" of the distant past is already a reason for doubt.
    1. Heimdall47
      Heimdall47 April 18 2016 12: 43
      +1
      after all, envious persons could be.

      Those. we have a bunch of heterogeneous sources - from all over the world, and we declare all of them, purely on the basis of our prejudices, "envious". Interesting.
      If not, then sound the reasons and give a source where Russia is described according to your views.
      In the meantime, this is childish babble, like "I don't want to, I won't smile
  • Turkir
    Turkir April 19 2016 16: 20
    0
    Yes, do not listen to this specialist in the history of Russia. They pull quotes out of context and run on the Internet like a hunveibin, waving these collections of quotes, the meaning of which is not accessible to them.
    There are about a dozen of these Arab sources. I read them all. And not all of them are credible.
    However, his question "And who were these Slavs?" you hit the top ten.
    We know examples of wars between the Slavs: for example, between Russians and Poles.
    As you can see, not everyone understands what they are reading.
    Rus and Slavs spoke the same language, and this is confirmed by chronicles.
    There is a good oriental saying. which refers to some commentators:
    "Sat on a donkey."
  • S_Baykala
    S_Baykala April 18 2016 10: 03
    +1
    Where did you find such examples? The next German-British scientists? What is interesting: the topic of mythical slaves was raised and discussed by a German, Icelander and Brit (I know that the flag next to the name does not always mean the same place of residence, just interesting).
    1. Heimdall47
      Heimdall47 April 18 2016 10: 16
      +1
      Where did you find such examples?

      Full of examples. I brought a couple above. Here's another (Arab Ibn-Rust)
      .. They have a king called the Hakan of the Rus. They attack the Slavs, drive up to them on ships, land, pick them up, take them to Khazaran and Bulkar and sell them there.
      1. Gray brother
        Gray brother April 18 2016 12: 24
        +1
        Quote: Heimdall47
        .. They have a king called the Hakan of the Rus.

        Hakan:
        the royal title that appeared in northeast Asia among the peoples of the Turkic tribe; first found in Orkhon monuments. This title was also mastered by the Mongol emperors. In the west, the title X. became famous in Byzantium in the VI century .; it existed among the Khazars, in general was widely used. Apparently, he shrank into a khan and over time lost his importance: in Persia, the title of khan is assigned to governors.
        Horses mixed in a bunch, people ...

        It’s interesting, but there were no tsars in Russia then — feudal fragmentation, you see. There was no supreme sovereign. So hto is this?
        1. Heimdall47
          Heimdall47 April 18 2016 12: 39
          +1
          So hto is this?

          I have no desire to conduct an excursion on the origin of Russia. Take it, read the literature, and then say hto.
          1. Gray brother
            Gray brother April 18 2016 13: 06
            0
            Quote: Heimdall47
            . Take it, read the literature, and then say hto.

            / And proudly turned away / laughing
            1. Heimdall47
              Heimdall47 April 18 2016 13: 21
              +1
              Already answered
              Yes, this, dear, I’m not driving, but the sources. You present them

              But you continue to address questions to me as if I made up these quotes.
              985 - Vladimir’s campaign on the Bulgars and Khazars. Khazars levied a tribute
              ... Vladimir was called the Khazar title kagan)

              This is the question - "What is Khazaria?"
              Since I feel like reading you do not like, I will help

              In a number of sources of the 839th century, the ruler of the Rus was called a kagan (hakan). The earliest report of this dates back to XNUMX
              1. todt
                todt April 26 2017 19: 46
                0
                The Germans Alexander Yaroslavovich (they began to call him Nevsky only in the XNUMXth century) in the XNUMXth century they called the king, that is, in accordance with their concept (other princes, the smaller, the duke). But the meaning remains
          2. Svidetel 45
            Svidetel 45 April 21 2016 00: 39
            0
            And you have no knowledge, But you have a desire to "omit" the past of our people.
  • indulf
    indulf April 18 2016 18: 20
    0
    Svyatoslav started well. but not very finished.
  • ver_
    ver_ April 18 2016 07: 36
    +4
    ..that are not "guests" are stupid - the elite is a helluva lot of venal - they otrohala themselves in foreign places and threw off chests with grandmothers, but here they get money from foreigners for the confusion that they sow in people's minds ..
  • kartalovkolya
    kartalovkolya April 18 2016 07: 50
    +1
    After all, well, they will not calm down after the Battle on the Ice, our ancestors didn’t heap enough for them, and again new Hitlers and Napoleons raise their heads in Geyrop. Well, the stupid ones do not learn anything, because for almost a thousand years Russia has been "soaping" their withers, and they all will not calm down! I would like to remind our and foreign "historians" the words of one clever person (not even a Russian) who warned the retailers of historical events that "... if you shoot HISTORY with a pistol, you will get it from a cannon ..."!
    1. todt
      todt April 26 2017 19: 49
      0
      They argue about history, and you're all about propaganda.
  • vic58
    vic58 April 18 2016 06: 19
    +5
    The people who do not remember their history are doomed! Do not believe, look at Ukraine! And we will always crush the German "pig" (the formation of knights in the shape of a triangle) hi
    1. Yarik
      Yarik April 18 2016 06: 28
      +2
      Well, there are big doubts about this form of construction. Apparently, they unfolded out of it, all the same at the time of the attack.
      1. Aleksandr72
        Aleksandr72 April 18 2016 09: 06
        +17
        Well, if you believe historians and researchers of tactics and strategy, the knightly cavalry had two main types of formations: 1. "Wedge", aka "boar's head", aka "pig" (actually what the knight-dogs used on Lake Peipsi) - It was used against the enemy on foot in order to break through the enemy's formation with a ramming strike of a heavily armed and well-protected cavalry armor, after which its own infantry completes the defeat of the enemy, advancing from the depths of the formation.
        2. "Palisade" (there are other names) - an expanded formation of knightly cavalry, where they are built with "spears" in a row ("spear" is not a melee weapon, but a small detachment of support of one equestrian knight, at different times included squires, horse and foot crossbowmen, etc., number from 5 to 15 people). The system was used in battle with another knightly cavalry, deployed along the front so that each knight could find an opponent for a duel (the battle itself was a set of ranks of knightly single combats).
        But this is all the lyrics. It doesn’t matter to me how and what is being written about the Battle of Ice and Alexander Nevsky (they say that the Teutons had not 500, but even 50, and even 5, and the Russian cavalry was almost heavier than the German - but for some reason the Teutons drowned and ours are not, and it was not Alexander who commanded the Russian army (a mediocre commander and a traitor in general — he traveled to the Horde to bow to Batu and was generally friendly with Batyga, and in general there was no battle on Lake Peipsi) - you can lie anything - the paper will endure everything - it is important that Alexander Nevsky polished the ryah with another European conquer firs, having discouraged them from fighting for a long time with Russia.
        I have the honor. hi
        1. Bredovich705
          Bredovich705 April 18 2016 09: 36
          +1
          I completely agree! And this is important, must know and remember!
        2. Mikhail Matyugin
          Mikhail Matyugin April 18 2016 19: 28
          +1
          Quote: Aleksandr72
          (they say that the Teutons didn’t have 500, but 50, or even 5, and the Russian cavalry was almost heavier than the German - but for some reason the Teutons drowned, and ours didn’t,

          I look forward to hearing from you data refuting this. I gave a little higher the ORIGINAL DATA OF THE RUSSIAN CHRONICLES about the number of dead and prisoners.

          And where is it written that the Teutons then drowned? Both Russian chronicles and German chronicles say that "the ice was red with blood" - tk. the pursuit and felling of the fleeing went on the ice of the lake.

          Quote: Aleksandr72
          that Alexander Nevsky cleaned the ryah to the next European conquerors, having discouraged them from fighting for a long time
          But one can also recall that he was a tributary of Batu and his faithful vassal, and the Mongols suppressed the national liberation movement, which was led by Alexander's brother Andrei. So not everything is so simple.
        3. todt
          todt April 26 2017 19: 55
          0
          If historical truths do not interest you, and you are only satisfied with propaganda cliches, then where is your honor?
    2. Svidetel 45
      Svidetel 45 April 21 2016 00: 41
      0
      that is, the copper bear has always crushed and will crush any pig.
  • Siberian
    Siberian April 18 2016 06: 20
    +6
    Since those distant times, the evil of these obscurantists has been preserved, but the memory is too short - every time you have to remind angry
  • ImPerts
    ImPerts April 18 2016 06: 25
    +13
    Liberal reviewers grabbed hold of it tightly, calling the work of a “British scientist” unfairly ignored by Russian historians.

    Such attempts have been made, are being undertaken and will be undertaken.
    For example, why was it necessary to take Berlin, to sacrifice soldiers and officers, if the outcome was already predetermined?
    Returning to the "rain", why didn't Leningrad surrender?
    Or from the last:

    “Recently, the writer Lyudmila Ulitskaya - one of the most significant and reprinted literary men in Russia - opened up about her attitude to the results of the Great Patriotic War.

    The next dialogue took place on the air of one of the radio stations.

    Among other things, she said the following:

    “You know, we all treat the French with a light, so condescending attitude towards the French, because we are great. , the French are not great, but we are great. But the country was destroyed, an awful lot of people died ... Victory has a price. Because millions of dead people are, of course, a very high price. The French have saved their own people in fact. "
    http://ren.tv/blog/88565
    1. Darkness
      Darkness April 18 2016 07: 07
      +13
      Channel One showed a dance with an unfortunate fascist and a Russian girl. With whose consent?
      All these streets, ehimoskva, rains are a trifle in comparison with the anti-Soviet muck that has settled in the Kremlin.
      1. Vitwin
        Vitwin April 18 2016 07: 14
        +5
        Quote: Darkness
        Channel One showed a dance with an unfortunate fascist and a Russian girl. With whose consent?
        All these streets, ehimoskva, rains are a trifle in comparison with the anti-Soviet muck that has settled in the Kremlin.

        On the echo of Moscow time, by the way, they condemned, in VO no gu gu about it
        1. Darkness
          Darkness April 18 2016 07: 23
          +3
          The management zhezh "apologized". Again they got the wrong people, they don't understand high art.
        2. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov April 18 2016 07: 26
          -12%
          Quote: Vitwin

          By the way, Moscow time, they condemned

          So most visitors to Echo of Moscow are communists.
        3. avva2012
          avva2012 April 18 2016 08: 40
          0
          Quote: Vitwin On the echo of Moscow time, by the way, they condemned, in VO no gu gu about it

          Not quite so, the mention was, though it passed almost unnoticed.
          Article: "More than 12 thousand people have already signed the petition to recognize Open Russia as an undesirable organization." Forum member Belarus left a comment. By the way, not on the first, but on the TV channel "Russia".
    2. Same lech
      Same lech April 18 2016 07: 26
      +11
      And the French - now, they surrendered their country to the Germans.


      Ulitskaya deliberately forgot to say what the French then did with collaborators ... crooks ...
      such as it works like parasites, beetles, tree-bearers turning the flowering tree of the history of RUSSIA into dust, to fight it and those like it must be fiercelyam



      The first post-war Minister of Justice reported to the Consultative Assembly that the courts had sentenced 3920 collaborators to death, 1949 to hard labor, and eight and a half thousand to imprisonment. But General Charles de Gaulle was the first to decide that there was no need to tear up the past and divide the country into traitors and heroes. The unity of the nation is much more important. The trials of collaborators completed their work in July 1953. More than a thousand convicts, President de Gaulle had mercy. But for the rest, imprisonment was short-lived. In XNUMX, an amnesty was declared. By law, former collaborators cannot even be reminded of their service to the occupiers. The further WWII goes, the more heroic their French past seems to the French.
      1. aba
        aba April 18 2016 08: 17
        +11
        The further WWII goes, the more heroic their French past seems to the French.


        According to the recollections of the participants, during the signing of the act of surrender of Germany
        On May 8, 1945, the head of the German delegation, Field Marshal Keitel, seeing people in French uniform among those present at the ceremony, could not help but wonder: “How ?! And these, too, defeated us, or what ?! "
      2. vik14025
        vik14025 April 18 2016 13: 17
        +3
        It’s not much courage to sentence 14000 unrequited traitors of various kinds after a five-year occupation. How little courage is to sit on the priest all this time, waiting for someone to free you.
        And the surrender of France by the collaborators, and their further fate speaks of the consensus of the authorities and the population about "to lie under Hitler."
        But when these "soyuznichki" demanded sweets for themselves based on the results of OUR victory - then they showed in all their glory - who they are.
        1. Oldwiser
          Oldwiser April 19 2016 18: 51
          0
          Joseph Vissarionovich also needed such "valiant allies" as a counterbalance to Churchill and British imperial interests; with the help of the French, there was a struggle for influence in Poland, which has long had close ties with France. So, politics is always based not on the concept of morality and ethics (who is your friend - Yugoslav heroes or French cowards and traitors), but considerations of pragmatism - which you can get hold of from both at this particular moment.
        2. Oldwiser
          Oldwiser April 19 2016 18: 51
          0
          Joseph Vissarionovich also needed such "valiant allies" as a counterbalance to Churchill and British imperial interests; with the help of the French, there was a struggle for influence in Poland, which has long had close ties with France. So, politics is always based not on the concept of morality and ethics (who is your friend - Yugoslav heroes or French cowards and traitors), but considerations of pragmatism - which you can get hold of from both at this particular moment.
    3. Come on
      Come on April 19 2016 05: 40
      -2
      Quote: ImPerts
      Returning to the "rain", why didn't Leningrad surrender?



      There was no such question, about the surrender of Leningrad. The question was about why civilians were not evacuated? And in my opinion the question is correct, even for children with mothers, the elderly could have been evacuated.
    4. Svidetel 45
      Svidetel 45 April 21 2016 00: 46
      0
      But this fool, I can’t call her otherwise, doesn’t have enough brains to understand that this is why Paris stands as the capital of France, and not the administrative center of the German province, because we, our fathers and grandfathers, turned out to be great.
  • Gardamir
    Gardamir April 18 2016 06: 42
    +1
    How liberal historians tried to deprive Russia of the significance of the victories of Alexander Nevsky
    "liberal historians" are probably those who voted for the name Stalin?
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov April 18 2016 06: 48
      +4
      Quote: Gardamir
      "liberal historians" are probably those who voted for the name Stalin?

      Respect the choice of the majority! And sometimes you need to include brains, or at least read an article, it helps!
      1. Darkness
        Darkness April 18 2016 07: 04
        +4
        The choice of the majority was Stalin.
        1. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov April 18 2016 07: 26
          +1
          Quote: Darkness
          The choice of the majority was Stalin.

          You are not the majority!
          1. V.ic
            V.ic April 18 2016 08: 29
            +5
            Quote: Alexander Romanov
            Quote: Darkness
            The choice of the majority was Stalin.
            You are not the majority!

            That's it: no matter how they vote, it is important who will be considered ...
          2. vik14025
            vik14025 April 18 2016 13: 21
            0
            Transition to personalities - why. If you have a question, it’s clear why, if you don’t own it, take an interest.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. siberalt
        siberalt April 18 2016 07: 27
        +11
        It would be nice to return the name Stalingrad to Volgograd by Victory Day. And the West would have done it and our "custom" historians calmed down. Until there is a state ideology, we will fight against dandruff from Dima Malikov, the lack of universal circumcision of men from Malysheva, general hemorrhoids, cellulite, lack of potency, prostate, and we will remove kilograms of parasites from our body every day. laughing
        1. Darkness
          Darkness April 18 2016 07: 54
          +3
          And Petersburg - Leningrad. Notably tear farts at all Russophobia.
          1. Alexander Romanov
            Alexander Romanov April 18 2016 07: 58
            +10
            Quote: Darkness
            And Petersburg - Leningrad.

            The city was founded by Peter 1!
            1. Darkness
              Darkness April 18 2016 08: 11
              0
              So what?
              Stalingrad, Stalin, or what founded?
              1. The comment was deleted.
              2. siberalt
                siberalt April 18 2016 08: 25
                +7
                The name "Stalingrad" has become a symbol of the resilience of the Russian soldiers and our Victory over fascism, recognized throughout the world. But the liberals surrendered it even under Khrushchev. Crimea was reunited with Russia and it is simply necessary to revive the sacred symbols of our Motherland! Otherwise, WE are nobody and call us in any way.
                1. Darkness
                  Darkness April 18 2016 08: 32
                  +8
                  And Leningrad - is this, perhaps, not the name of the stoicness of ordinary residents?
                  For me, these two names are equivalent.
              3. Alexander Romanov
                Alexander Romanov April 18 2016 12: 37
                0
                Quote: Darkness
                Stalingrad, Stalin, or what founded?

                Now there is no such city, there is Volgograd!
                1. Kos_kalinki9
                  Kos_kalinki9 April 19 2016 21: 56
                  +2
                  There is no city. A medal for the defense of Stalingrad is.
    2. Darkness
      Darkness April 18 2016 07: 01
      +3
      And then Stalin, our unworthy ones, bashfully removed from the vote, for Stalin would have won by a huge margin.
      1. Alexander Romanov
        Alexander Romanov April 18 2016 07: 04
        -12%
        Quote: Darkness

        And then Stalin, our unworthy ones, bashfully removed from the vote, for Stalin would have won by a huge margin.

        Zyuganov also everywhere wins with a huge margin, but his voices are stolen lol
        1. Darkness
          Darkness April 18 2016 07: 08
          +2
          And here Zyuganov?
    3. ver_
      ver_ April 18 2016 08: 03
      +3
      ... liberal historians received state awards and titles for their "discoveries" in reverence for ancient Chinese hieroglyphs (which are now not used), and accused the Mongols and Genghis Khan of the invasion of Europe and Russia in the 14th century, while modestly keeping silent that Mongolia was founded in 1920 .. and well, in no way could she do it even theoretically .. In those days, the maximum number of people on that territory was 14 thousand people in total .. And the Mongols of the 14th century had a large fleet ??? Such historians should not be given titles, but hung them up so that it would be discouraging to defame others ..
      1. guzik007
        guzik007 April 18 2016 09: 38
        +1
        liberal historians received state awards and titles for their "discoveries" in reverence for ancient Chinese characters (which are not used now), and they accused the Mongols and Genghis Khan of the invasion of Europe and Russia in the 14th century, while modestly keeping silent that Mongolia was founded in 1920 ..and well, in no way could it do it, even theoretically .. In those days, the maximum number of people on that territory was 14 thousand people in total .. And the Mongols of the 14th century had a large fleet ??? Such historians should not be given titles, but should be hung up so that it would be discouraging to defame others.
        -------------------------------------------------- -----------------
        People, before minus, read "Unknown Asia" by Bushkov. I myself am reading now. Very interesting research.
        1. avva2012
          avva2012 April 18 2016 10: 34
          -1
          Quote: guzik007 People, before minus, read "Unknown Asia" by Bushkov. I myself am reading now. Very interesting research.

          If interested, read "The Russia We Lost-2", co-authored with Burovsky. Maybe, after reading, you don't want to read more than Bushkov?
        2. ver_
          ver_ April 18 2016 12: 13
          +1
          .. "March of the Iron Special Forces of Chingiskan" Article by the author Loskutov. The size of the article is small.
      2. Hurray
        Hurray April 18 2016 15: 32
        +1
        you can lie anything - paper can endure everything
  • Holsten
    Holsten April 18 2016 06: 46
    +8
    It is a pity there is no way to call the scoundrels, who tarnish Russian history, to be held accountable by law. And to argue with them and justify, to uphold all the great milestones of Russian history is undoubtedly necessary, but it will be more like a dull defense. And it turns out: if it is impossible to appeal to conscience, then censorship is indispensable.
    1. Darkness
      Darkness April 18 2016 07: 02
      -2
      And what about Soviet history? Is she part of the "Russian"?
      1. Alexander Romanov
        Alexander Romanov April 18 2016 07: 05
        +3
        Quote: Darkness
        And what about Soviet history? Is she part of the "Russian"?

        And he went to divide into Russian and Soviet fool
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. Darkness
          Darkness April 18 2016 07: 35
          +1
          Well, the country's leadership and representatives of the leading religions in the country are divided. How to be with them?
          1. Alexander Romanov
            Alexander Romanov April 18 2016 07: 54
            0
            Quote: Darkness
            Well, the country's leadership and representatives of the leading religions in the country are divided. How to be with them?

            They do not divide into Russian and Soviet.
            1. Darkness
              Darkness April 18 2016 08: 27
              0
              What is the anti-Soviet policy of the state and the church?
              1. insular
                insular April 18 2016 09: 25
                +5
                Quote: Darkness
                What is the anti-Soviet policy of the state and the church?

                And you do not accidentally confuse the form of government in the state and the state itself?
                "Soviet" read "parliamentary" republic - nothing more than a form of government.
                Moreover, do not confuse the nation (people) and the form of government laughing

                Personally, it doesn’t fit my head how it can be divided into Russian and Soviet ... If one is a state-forming people, and the other is a form of government in the state (or the name of the state).

                The Russian Empire, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, the Russian Federation are all names of states with a Russian state-forming people.

                How can we share the history of the people and the states that this people created? If any state created by this people is a stage in the history of this people?

                Personally, I identify with myself as a Russian. And in my understanding and my historical memory, all the victories and defeats of the Russians and Russia and the Russian Empire and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and the Russian Federation.

                "I am Russian, what a delight!" (FROM)
                1. avva2012
                  avva2012 April 18 2016 10: 30
                  +1
                  Quote: insular Personally, it doesn’t fit my head how it can be divided into Russian and Soviet ... If one is a state-forming people, and the other is a form of government in the state (or the name of the state).

                  You know, I have one too.
                  Russia is a state located over time. Time, as you know, indicates the course, duration and sequence of events. You can’t take the Soviet time out of history, as it were, who did not want to.
              2. The comment was deleted.
              3. Alexander Romanov
                Alexander Romanov April 18 2016 12: 39
                0
                Quote: Darkness
                What is the anti-Soviet policy of the state and the church?

                What? General out
            2. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA April 18 2016 10: 28
              +3
              Quote: Alexander Romanov
              They do not divide into Russian and Soviet.

              They share the story even better:
              And at the same time, Russia is a young country. Let me remind you that in the coming year she will be only 20 years old.
              (c) President of Russia
              1. Alexander Romanov
                Alexander Romanov April 18 2016 12: 39
                +1
                Quote: Alexey RA
                And at the same time, Russia is a young country. Let me remind you that in the coming year she will be only 20 years old. (c) President of Russia

                This is the modern history of Russia.
  • Kos_kalinki9
    Kos_kalinki9 April 18 2016 06: 58
    +18
    Alexander Nevsky "stupidly opposed the advent of Western civilization."
    How! That is when it turns out that Russia began to be "invited" to the "friendly" pederast. European "family". And "bastard", "barbaric" Russia did not understand this. Eurointegrators, damn it.
  • VP
    VP April 18 2016 07: 14
    +9
    The point on which they restrict - "yes there is just a minor collision, only five hundred people from the Germans."
    But the problem is that not "500 people" but 500 knights.
    Each knight is a heavily armed commander of a small detachment, had up to 20 squires, depending on capabilities, the seediest 5-7.
    Those. whose tank is supported and covered.
    The squire is a strong warrior, just his armor was not as impressive as the knights, they were generally imbs.
    Plus, in addition to the chivalrous army itself, there were other troops, various castle and city squads who went on a campaign.
    Those. 10-15 thousand, the core of which was heavily armed professionals. In our times, this is practically a division, and in those years it was even a very big force that could bend anyone.
    1. Darkness
      Darkness April 18 2016 07: 25
      -1
      Where does this come from, about 500 knights?
      1. VP
        VP April 18 2016 07: 28
        +4
        From the annals.
        1. Darkness
          Darkness April 18 2016 07: 37
          -2
          Md But can you tell me the total number of knights in the Order?
          1. VP
            VP April 18 2016 07: 48
            +4
            I will not prompt. Probably your question is caused by the fact that you have this answer and you can’t wait to answer it yourself, at the same time giving the sources of this answer?
            Foreign sources estimate the strength of the Teutonic army in the Battle of Ice at the same figure that I cited - over 10 thousand.
      2. Alexander Romanov
        Alexander Romanov April 18 2016 07: 31
        +5
        Quote: Darkness
        Where does this come from, about 500 knights?

        It’s immediately clear who read the article and who just the headline.
    2. Roman 11
      Roman 11 April 18 2016 09: 11
      +1
      Quote: VP
      In our times, it’s practically a division, and in those years it’s

      Knight's army.
      Quote: VP
      Those. 10-15 thousand, the core of which was heavily armed professionals.

      Yes, even a few thousand, 2-3 thousand knights are crazy power - the best horses, chained in armor, + the whole child in iron - at least 2 centners (weight of shield, spear, sword - 15 kg, or even more), armor - 50 kg ..... and the body itself dragging these weights should not be frail - from 90 kg and above.

      And such a combat unit rushes to the ranks, with just one blow to the ranks it will demolish a little, and the sword is not small. Now let's take a look at the column! They are also covered by all sorts of crossbowmen, squire, bodyguards, foot chain-sword-swordsmen ... 5000 all of them together are utterly powerful.
      1. Darkness
        Darkness April 18 2016 09: 44
        0
        Already 2-3 thousand knights? However....
      2. kalibr
        kalibr April 18 2016 10: 16
        +2
        Armor 1242 of the year in 50 kg? At least you should check back often and read what is written about it!
      3. The comment was deleted.
    3. revnagan
      revnagan April 18 2016 11: 34
      +2
      Dear, watch the cycle of films from Klim Zhukov. It is called "Intelligence poll" with Klim Zhukov. The host is "Goblin", yes, the Goblin itself. A very informative series. The Battle of the Neva, and the Kulikovo ... There is also the Battle of the Ice. With calculations and excerpts from the chronicles. In general, go for it. On the Yu-Tuba is freely available.
  • Darkness
    Darkness April 18 2016 07: 15
    -5
    By the way, in the history of Russia there are many Great victories, in importance far exceeding the Battle of the Ice. But for some reason they chose this one. Why not Svyatoslav, not Grozny, not Suvorov, etc.?
    Why are they hushed up, for the sake of a petty skirmish, which has already covered many myths and legends?
    For me, so the battle of Molodi was of greater significance than the Battle of the Ice.
    1. VP
      VP April 18 2016 07: 24
      +10
      Quote: Darkness
      why not Svyatoslav, not Terrible, not Suvorov, etc.?

      1. Because this victory was won in a very difficult time, there were enough problems without the Germans. If the Germans won, we would lose the whole north. And they would hardly be returned. And then the question of the possibility of the existence of the state in the future would hardly be raised at all - there would be nothing to gather in the future in the state.
      2. The victories of Svyatoslav did not affect the existence of Russia, they were beyond its borders.
      3. Suvorov did not have to defend the country from the threat of capture, during his wars the question was not so.

      In fact, with that threat, one can put on a par with the war with the Poles, Pozharsky. Then, too, the question was whether to be a country or to become part of another.
      But the expulsion of the Poles from Moscow has become a national holiday.
      1. Darkness
        Darkness April 18 2016 07: 34
        +1
        Under Young, the very existence of the country was also decided, for example. It was also a very difficult time.
        Svyatoslav’s victories directly reflected on the existence of Russia, it was a preemptive strike on the enemy.
        1. Siberian
          Siberian April 18 2016 07: 47
          +9
          Dear Gloom! You forget about the most important thing in this victory - this is the victory not only of the heroic people, but of Orthodoxy as a whole, for the Tatar hordes were not so terrible, as they made only material acquisitions, and the enemy was more terrible, carrying a more terrible threat - the destruction of Orthodoxy, the bond that united the people made him united no matter what. If they had succeeded, there would not have been that people now. And he would be the same as we see now in Poland and others. angry
          1. Alexander Romanov
            Alexander Romanov April 18 2016 07: 56
            +2
            Quote: Siberian
            You forget the most important thing in this victory - it is a victory not only of the heroic people

            He doesn’t care if Stalin had won, he would not have recalled other battles at all. He simply doesn’t like that Stalin did not win, that’s all.
            1. Darkness
              Darkness April 18 2016 08: 12
              -1
              Why are you lying?
              1. Siberian
                Siberian April 18 2016 10: 55
                +2
                The darkness you are just impolite. What do you mean, I didn’t drink with you on the broodershaft, if you want to debate, then in a polite tone, do not become like our smaller brothers with no fallow.
          2. Darkness
            Darkness April 18 2016 07: 58
            -1
            There are countries that did well without Orthodoxy and have existed for several millennia.
            1. VP
              VP April 18 2016 08: 12
              +5
              And there are countries that have not existed for several thousand years.
              It would be interesting to learn about millennia-old countries ...
              Probably Egypt? laughing
              1. Darkness
                Darkness April 18 2016 08: 33
                -3
                China, India.
                1. VP
                  VP April 18 2016 08: 52
                  +4
                  China as a separate state crystallized into such a state much later than "several thousand years ago." Several thousand years ago there was a set of states, and not mono-national ones. Among them, the strongest appeared from time to time, trying with a greater or lesser degree of success to make neighbors dependent. States arose and disappeared in the same way.
                  About "several thousand years ago" we can talk about the Chinese civilization, but not about the Chinese state itself.
                  The situation is similar with India - the Hindu civilization is ancient, but not the state.
                  In general, you yourself do not mind that you are trying to compare with the oldest civilizations?
                  In fact, this, in fact, turns out to be a sign of greatness, don’t you? laughing
                2. Captain45
                  Captain45 April 18 2016 10: 20
                  +1
                  Quote: Darkness
                  China, India.

                  India as a state appeared in 1947 or 49, I don’t remember right now, and before that it was a colony, so to speak, a diamond, in the crown of the British Empire. A colony cannot be a state.
                  1. avva2012
                    avva2012 April 18 2016 10: 57
                    +1
                    Quote: Captain45 India as a state appeared in 1947 or 49, I don’t remember right now, and before that it was a colony, so to speak, a diamond, in the crown of the British Empire. A colony cannot be a state.

                    This is modern India. There was still the empire of the great Moгtin, where India entered. China, as an empire, if I am not mistaken, appeared after the conquest of this territory by the Manchus in the 17 century and the foundation of the imperial dynasty that existed until the 1945 year. Prior to that, it is reliably known about several states that existed on this territory and differed from each other, including on a national basis.
              2. ver_
                ver_ April 18 2016 08: 51
                +2
                ... during Napoleon in Egypt there were one and a half cripples ..
                1. VP
                  VP April 18 2016 09: 31
                  +3
                  Pius Napoleone in Egypt was no longer the "ancient Egyptians" but the Arabs who conquered Egypt.
                2. Hurray
                  Hurray April 18 2016 15: 34
                  0
                  you can lie anything - paper can endure everything
            2. Siberian
              Siberian April 18 2016 10: 51
              0
              Are you lying Loudly declared. In that I said no and a gram of lies. If you are about countries? So everything is obvious here, if you are not blind, I did not say that countries will not exist as such, they will simply be assigned the role of second-class, vassal ones.
            3. Alexander Romanov
              Alexander Romanov April 18 2016 12: 40
              +1
              Quote: Darkness

              There are countries that did well without Orthodoxy and have existed for several millennia.

              They have their own faith.
          3. ver_
            ver_ April 18 2016 08: 36
            +5
            ... Orthodoxy in the time of Alexander Nevsky and Orthodoxy now are two big differences .. Yaroslav Vsevolodovich, the father of Nevsky, executed Prince Chernigov and ordered Alexander to destroy his brother Andrei for treason (Alexander caught up and executed Andrey ..) Religion in Russia was Paganism polytheism, and the Semites instilled Christianity (Jesus Christ is a Jew) ..
          4. Roman 11
            Roman 11 April 18 2016 09: 36
            +2
            Quote: Siberian
            for the Tatar hordes were not so terrible, since they made only material acquisitions

            No, they were just scary, because bloodless feuds our power finally collapsed under the blow of the invasion. If the Mongols were not bloodless and tired of going to Russia, and then even expanding to the west, they could completely cut the population. They spent about 2 years resting in the steppes, gaining strength after a campaign in northeastern Russia. Then they were not up to us, the route to the west, then fatigue, relaxation, good gifts, material wealth, a tribute and it was completely unprofitable for them to destroy us.
            1. ver_
              ver_ April 18 2016 12: 01
              +1
              ... explain to me the fool how the Mongols got into the 14th century, from the 19th century .. Mongolia was founded in 1920 ..- well, look at the wiki ..
          5. todt
            todt April 26 2017 20: 18
            0
            Not in the eyebrow, but in the eye! Alexander Nevsky and the Church are the essence of all greatness. The church, like Alexander, was fed from the Horde.
        2. VP
          VP April 18 2016 07: 50
          +1
          I agree with the meaning of the battle of Molodi. And what is your conclusion? Should we forget about Nevsky since there were a couple of similar victories of similar significance?
          1. Darkness
            Darkness April 18 2016 07: 56
            -2
            Don't forget. But it is also not necessary to make an "icon" out of it.
            1. VP
              VP April 18 2016 08: 14
              +4
              And why are you so upset about the fact that the victory was won in this very defining battle? Why is it impossible to "make an icon" and what should it be made of?
              1. Darkness
                Darkness April 18 2016 08: 36
                +2
                No need to make "icons" at all. Otherwise, it is all overgrown with so many myths and lies that the facts are forgotten by themselves.
                It’s just that some victories are being elevated, others, no less, and sometimes much more important, are forgotten.
                1. VP
                  VP April 18 2016 08: 55
                  +3
                  Now re-read the article.
                  April 18, 1242 remains one of the most revered among domestic historical dates.

                  What exactly in this phrase caused you such a wild vine?
                  You are finely merged into "well, there were others too."
                  There were. So what ? When they write about the other, you just jump in with "no need to make an icon, there were others."
        3. avva2012
          avva2012 April 18 2016 09: 21
          +4
          Quote: Darkness Under Young, the very existence of the country was also decided, for example. It was also a very difficult time.

          The victory at Molody, for some reason, was hushed up for a long time. Although, maybe this was due to the fact that the entire reign of John the Terrible, in our history, is described one-sidedly. What do we know about that time, except for the oprichnina? And by itself, this phenomenon is evaluated only from the negative side. I don’t know, I didn’t read the history textbooks recommended at the time of the Republic of Ingushetia, but you can judge the attitude to this historical period from the literature. Either one of the ancestors of the Romanovs suffered, or Western influences influenced.
          The battle of the ice, in my opinion, should remain in the history of our country as a symbol of the struggle against foreign invaders. And how many knights were taken there in captivity, and how many were killed, does not matter. Exaggeration in the annals, can be seen not only in ours. In the West, they also write crazy numbers and this does not bother anyone. I read somewhere about the destroyed schismatics (i.e., Russians) up to half a million people (I don’t remember the battle). Why can they, but not us? Was there a feat? It was. On this, you can start a discussion.
      2. V.ic
        V.ic April 18 2016 08: 36
        +3
        Quote: VP
        2. The victories of Svyatoslav did not affect the existence of Russia, they were beyond its borders.

        The defeat by Svyatoslav Igorevich Khazar did not affect the existence of Russia? Do you seriously think so?
        1. VP
          VP April 18 2016 09: 04
          0
          Yes, seriously. The Khazars could greatly complicate but not stop. With the Khazars, the cuts were periodically. And they spoiled life greatly, and they too. The Khazars at the time of the campaign of Svyatoslav had a lot of bunts even without Russia and simply were not capable of conquering it. Maximum capture a city or two for a while. What was also difficult to do since Russia at that time did not wage other wars, was not weakened and was not occupied by anyone (as at the time of the Battle of the Ice). In fact, the campaign of Svyatoslav was at the time of the weakening of the Khazaria and was not carried out in despair, but prudently.
          1. V.ic
            V.ic April 18 2016 12: 27
            +1
            Quote: VP
            Yes, seriously. The Khazars could greatly complicate but not stop.

            http://www.historays.ru/publ/zigzag_istorii/podvigi_polkovodca_pesakha/17-1-0-11
            13
            Read about Passover deeds and tribute to swords.
            Quote: VP
            Svyatoslav’s campaign was at the time of the weakening of the Khazars and was carried out not in despair but prudently.

            So I say: it's not worth keeping Svyatoslav Igorevich for the "sucker".
      3. Roman 11
        Roman 11 April 18 2016 09: 19
        0
        Quote: VP
        In fact, with that threat, war with the Poles can be put on a par

        For some reason, it’s customary for us to interpret that war simply with the Poles, less often the Polish-Swedish intervention, and very rarely against Sigismund, False Dmitry and Semiboyarschina ...
        1. VP
          VP April 18 2016 10: 03
          0
          Yes, because, in fact, it is not so important who exactly was at the head of the "other side", the people rose not against the Sigismund, but against the Poles who seized the capital as such.
          And you should not have included seven-boyars in this row - seven-boyars was an internal situational phenomenon. Played a strong role in the events, treasonous, but still it was an internal phenomenon. One of the uncles of the future founder of the Romanov dynasty even entered the seven-boyars.
      4. Oldwiser
        Oldwiser April 19 2016 19: 02
        0
        The turmoil of the late 16th - early 17th centuries and the resulting rise to power of the Westernized Romanov dynasty is more of a civil war, where the opposing forces were actively using foreign mercenaries - the same Poles, Magyars and other "enemies".
    2. baudolino
      baudolino April 18 2016 08: 10
      +1
      "Why are they hushed up, for the sake of a petty skirmish, which has already acquired many myths and legends?" - This minor skirmish strengthened the position of Prince Alexander. And it was from this fortification that the dynasty went up to John IV, nicknamed Vasilyevich. And accordingly, the formation of Russia.
      But if you organize a holiday about every Russian Victoria, the army will succumb.
      1. Darkness
        Darkness April 18 2016 08: 40
        -2
        The Rurik dynasty arose long before the Nevsky, if that.
        1. ver_
          ver_ April 18 2016 12: 45
          -3
          .. in 1212, Khan John Rurik Varyag the Trojan (Troy destroyed) called to rule by the princes arrived in Russia ..
          Awakened. Born Vsevolod.
          Vsevolod
          Bore 2 sons.
          1. Caesar - Yuri is the name given to the birth. George is the name given at baptism ... Dolgoruky-nickname. His hands reached Italy.
          2. John is the name given at birth .. Yaroslav is the name given at baptism .. Wise is the nickname ..
          Yaroslav gave birth to 3 sons
          Alexander (Nevsky), Andrew, John
          All of these individuals are Khan inherited ...
          THIS IS A DIRECT BRANCH OF RURIKOVICH ...
    3. Ros 56
      Ros 56 April 19 2016 07: 34
      0
      You have to be very "gifted" not to understand why this particular episode of history was chosen, in one word "darkness".
  • casparcaspar
    casparcaspar April 18 2016 07: 25
    0
    For Nevsky always greens!
    As correctly indicated here-do not save us Russia without total censorship !!! Internet access should be on the passport, even from home. Decided which sites you visit - send the list to the ministry of coordination. They will be quickly checked and approved. Ayshel from the Internet - send a report in which all your comments.
    No passwords for pages on networks or mailboxes! Our security officers then 100% catch all the terrorists and Maidan.
    And nobody will touch Alexander Nevsky with their dirty paws!
  • igordok
    igordok April 18 2016 07: 29
    +1
    In March 1944, there was an attempt to bypass the Panther line on the ice of Lake Pskov with the help of light tanks.
  • kalibr
    kalibr April 18 2016 07: 38
    -3
    It is strange for a reputable author to refer to the text of a school textbook and Simonov's poem. It is a work of art, but not history. True patriotism should be based on steel-concrete evidence and indisputable facts, and emotions and beautiful words are inexpensive. Much more interesting material could be copied from the Pravda newspaper for 1942, dedicated to the 700th anniversary of the battle, and an article about A. Nevsky, which appeared in the same place in December 1941 ... People are shrinking, their proofs are shrinking, and all this is in on the whole, it opens up loopholes for people like John Fennell. That is, it does not work against them, but ... on! It is enough to translate this article into English and give alongside texts from the PSRL and the Livonian Chronicle, and yet another article about how nationalism is incited in "Putin's Russia" may well be born. In cheap pictures from Soviet textbooks. Why do we need this? They beat the enemy in a wrong way, they beat the enemy not with a broom, while swearing at the same time, but with a heavier hammer!
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    6. Brother
      Brother April 18 2016 13: 00
      +2
      I'll stick it here soldier.
      Full-sized here http://radikal.ru/fp/369ac730053c4187a35969f8b3f8a246
  • ver_
    ver_ April 18 2016 07: 45
    0
    Quote: vic58
    The people who do not remember their history are doomed! Do not believe, look at Ukraine! And we will always crush the German "pig" (the formation of knights in the shape of a triangle) hi


    ... but not everything in our history is "transparent" .. The history of Russia was written by the Germans by order of Tsar Peter .., during his reign, church books were "blotted out" and "the library of John the Terrible = Vasilevs the Blessed" disappeared .. Frescoes from ancient churches were destroyed. ...
  • aba
    aba April 18 2016 08: 12
    +3
    Was this victory so great?

    According to our partners, at all times everything great has happened west of Kiev.

    PS It’s interesting, who and for what caused the article?
    1. kalibr
      kalibr April 18 2016 12: 05
      +2
      You just did not read the books of D.Nikol about the battle on Lake Peypus (the Lithuanian name for Peipsi). Everything is very evident, balanced, there is no belittling of our history there.
  • Sakhalin.
    Sakhalin. April 18 2016 08: 20
    +5
    Not to be foreigners on Russian soil.
    Glory to the Russian army, glory !!!
    1. Darkness
      Darkness April 18 2016 08: 39
      +2
      Take a look through the window. There are plenty of foreigners on Russian soil. What are you going to do?
      1. Brother
        Brother April 18 2016 08: 47
        +2
        What are you going to do?

        Don't know better you tell me.
        1. Darkness
          Darkness April 18 2016 09: 47
          0
          I do everything in my power.
      2. S_Baykala
        S_Baykala April 18 2016 09: 15
        +1
        Unfortunately, we live on planet Earth, not on planet Russia. Isolation from foreigners (it doesn’t matter, there is no half isolation) positively affects the morale of citizens, but the technological progress without which Russia cannot survive in this world (our land is too tidbit and few people protect it), develops at times slower. An obvious example is Japan. While there were samurai, bushido is a distinctive culture that still inspires respect. But unprincipled Westerners came with new weapons, technologies, and combed the samurai in the tail and mane, although their military spirit was immeasurably higher. And now in Japan, technological progress, but the word samurai seems to have become history. At least, Abe does not make herself a seppuku in response to the fact that ours seem to them a muzzle instead of islands. Other examples: S. Korea.
      3. Kenneth
        Kenneth April 18 2016 09: 32
        +1
        And where is this magic window. Or are you talking about zombies.
  • Million
    Million April 18 2016 08: 30
    -2
    It is surprising why such liberal actions go unpunished? Putin is too soft to one and too cruel to others ..
    1. ver_
      ver_ April 18 2016 08: 46
      +1
      ... it will be too big "..bada boom .." .. Putin is a very prudent person .. Remember "Danko's heart" ... a cautious person came up and stepped on ...
  • bober1982
    bober1982 April 18 2016 08: 40
    +3
    Attacks on Alexander Nevsky have centuries-old liberal traditions: V. Tatishchev, V. Klyuchevsky, S. Solovyov and others. All this progressive crowd simply attacked the Holy Prince. It’s characteristic that the little book of Fennel mentioned in the article appeared before the collapse of the Union, in a rather large circulation, all the slander against Alexander Nevsky was introduced into the consciousness of people as truth.
    1. Darkness
      Darkness April 18 2016 09: 49
      +1
      To take and defame famous historians is not even five, these are ten !!!
      1. bober1982
        bober1982 April 18 2016 10: 04
        +1
        These historians were famous among their own specific public. They covered themselves with unfading glory.
  • Mikhail Matyugin
    Mikhail Matyugin April 18 2016 08: 49
    +4
    Quote: VP
    But the problem is that not "500 people" but 500 knights.
    Each knight is a heavily armed commander of a small detachment, had up to 20 squires, depending on capabilities, the seediest 5-7.

    1. As noted above, I would like to know in more detail. where are the data about 500 knights on the German side in the Battle of the Ice *

    2. The knight's "spear" never numbered 20 warriors. It's just that when the detachment reached the number of 7-12 people, then others inevitably appeared in it - "single-shield knights" and knights with a small retinue.

    Quote: Darkness
    Take a look through the window. There are plenty of foreigners on Russian soil. What are you going to do?
    Exactly ! Screaming slogans is one thing. And what do we really have?
    1. Kenneth
      Kenneth April 18 2016 09: 17
      +2
      Well what are you. It is more pleasant to consider victory over innumerable hordes in white armor.
    2. kalibr
      kalibr April 18 2016 10: 05
      0
      But in reality, Mikhail, we have this: 90 castles of the order that belonged to "God's rhetoricians". These are 90 knights + castellans, but he stayed at home. A squire (and not one, yes) and a certain number of armed servants. Which one? in 1285 in England in the royal (!) Conwy castle there was a garrison of 30 (!) soldiers, including equestrians, and a carpenter. That is, this is the limit that King Edward 1 could afford. Further: in April 1241 there was a battle at Legnica (see VO), where the order knights fought and ... one of them died. This means that not all 90 ... someone did not recover from their wounds, someone was sick, someone ... That is, it is already several times less, right? Of course, there could be "guests". But how many were there and how many did they bring with them? And finally, the "Rhymed Chronicle" mentions 5 (five!) Dead brothers. Of course, we can say that this is a belittling of the honor of the winners, but ... The rhymed chronicle is rhymed because it was read to the brothers during meals and they, being monks and Christians, at the same time REMEMBERED THE GREATS. And it was considered a terrible sin, how to remember - they remembered the deceased, and he is alive, and not remember - that is, dead, not remembered! And no one wanted such a fate for themselves, that is, they remembered the truly dead. That's all! Everything else is from the "evil one." Ukrainians dug the sea, and we drowned all the chivalry of Europe in one lake.
      1. Pomeranian
        Pomeranian April 19 2016 11: 26
        0
        Quote: kalibr
        . The rhymed chronicle is therefore rhymed because it was read to the brothers during meals, and they, being monks and Christians, at the same time REMEMBERED THE LOSS.

        Most valuable remark! It was the order brothers who were commemorated, i.e. full members of the order. And did they commemorate candidates, clergy and other "serving brothers" among whom there could well have been knights performing the imposed penance or vow, guests of the military monastic order, mercenaries and others?
    3. VP
      VP April 18 2016 10: 38
      +1
      Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
      As already noted above, I would like to know in more detail. where are the data on 500 knights on the German side in the Battle of the Ice

      Before that I wanted to know how many total knights were in the order. You probably already enlightened this question and it has become irrelevant wink
      But I dug this question too. It is known from sources that the number of "full brothers" in the order reached 800 and more. How much exactly at that time was - is unknown. You probably too.
      As for five hundred ... I don't know. It is not clear in the chronicles what exactly "400 Germans" are included. Since, in addition to the actual orders, the knights were at the head of the Dorpat militia, there were even the Danes who came out with their troops according to vassalage.
      Probably purely knightly knights were significantly less than that figure.
      In general, it really is a question of who exactly was included in the "knights". It is useless to refer to the chronicles of the order - they were repeatedly accused of "optimizing the numbers" when it came to their defeats. But in Western chronicles, the number of troops is estimated at 10-12 thousand.
      1. Mikhail Matyugin
        Mikhail Matyugin April 18 2016 12: 27
        +4
        Here is the only true and detailed numerical presentation of the battle according to Russian sources - the text of the story about the Battle of Ice from the Novgorod 1-th Anniversary of the younger edition from the Commission list:

        "... And Nemtsi is that scum, and Chyuda gives a splashand and, chasing, a beating on 7 verst on the ice to the Sobolichkago coast. And the pads of Chyudi were frantic, and the German 500, and the other 50 by the hands of Yasha and brought to Novgorod. And beating April 5, to nominate the holy martyr Theodula, to praise the Holy Mother of God, on Saturday ... "


        Those. the knight's wedge got stuck in the foot central regiment and was surrounded and few were able to get out of it. "Chud" attacked after (and not inside the "pig") - these are Letto-Lithuanian and Estonian vassal, allied and mercenary contingents.

        The result of the battle, according to the testimony of the Russian "samovidtsa" battle - about at least 500 killed various soldiers, armed in the Western style, prisoners armed and dressed in European style 50 people - not all of them are knights! they are mainly professional "military servants".

        The corpses of the Baltic allies were not considered, and apparently they were not taken prisoner because of their value in terms of exchange.

        Where is there even a word about the army in 10-12 of thousands of invaders?
  • Kenneth
    Kenneth April 18 2016 08: 53
    0
    Who to us with what and why, that from that and that.
  • ando_bor
    ando_bor April 18 2016 09: 00
    +1
    There are no such historians in Russia, and what liberal historians call the usual hired State Department with ... b, is a component of the chemical weapons of hybrid wars.
    1. vik14025
      vik14025 April 18 2016 13: 32
      -1
      I would add hydrogen sulfide after the word "chemical" in brackets.
  • Kenneth
    Kenneth April 18 2016 09: 04
    +3
    Most approaches to this event, sins frank modernism and globalism. Here and the struggle for freedom almost with the European Union, and the clash of civilizations. The death star with its stormtroopers in a characteristic outfit has not yet been dragged. And there was a struggle for income and power. The same Pskov, from which it all began, simply chose the roof of Novgorod or Livonians, for their trading operations, and the chukhnya that beat against the Livonians simply tried to get rid of the robbery by the Novgorodians. And Alexander has formidable eyes provides himself and his father (his) influence and income from a very important and non-ruined territory
  • varov14
    varov14 April 18 2016 09: 17
    +1
    Alexander knew with whom to build bridges, after all, we have lived with the Tatars for centuries, complementing each other, which not some have others. We "love" Western friends for these same centuries, as they do us and always mutually.
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid April 18 2016 09: 19
    +2
    And about the same historical time in France, the destruction of the Cathars took place. The most brutal. Residents of one country --- residents of the same country. There were articles on this topic in the Military Archive and there will be more.
    Those who speak of Western civilization for the Russians at that time would know that there would simply be no Russian people; the Crusaders would have killed them even more cruelly than the French --- Cathars. Another example: the destroyed and assimilated Pomeranian and Polab Slavs.
    Happy Military Glory Day of Russia, dear interlocutors !!! Alexander Nevsky will forever remain in our memory !!!
    1. avva2012
      avva2012 April 18 2016 10: 10
      +3
      Quote: Reptiloid And around the same historical time in France, the destruction of the Cathars took place. The most brutal. Residents of one country --- residents of the same country

      The Cathars, Petrobruzians, Heinrichians, Albigensians, are united in a group of Gnostic-Manichaean heresies.
      The basic worldview of all the ramifications of this movement was the recognition of the irreconcilable opposite of the material world, the source of evil, and the spiritual world, as the concentration of good.
      Accordingly, there is a logical way out of this: for all mankind, the ideal and ultimate goal, in principle, was universal suicide. It was conceived either in the most direct way, or through the termination of childbearing. They considered the continuation of the genus to be the work of Satan, believed that the pregnant woman was under the influence of a demon, and that a demon also accompanied each born child.
      Instead of confession and communion: neither repentance of sins committed nor their atonement was considered necessary.
      When the sick heretic recovered, he was advised to commit suicide, which was called "endura." In many cases, endura was posed as a condition of "consolation." Often, the Cathars subjected her to old people or children who took “consolation” (of course, with this, suicide turned into murder). The forms of endura were diverse: most often starvation (especially for children whose mothers stopped breastfeeding), but also bloodletting, hot baths, followed by sudden cooling, a drink with crushed glass, asphyxiation.http://rushist.com/index.php/west/2716-katary-eres
      Excuse me, but I don’t see the connection between the Cathars and the Orthodox, at least kill me.
      1. Reptiloid
        Reptiloid April 18 2016 11: 18
        -1
        There is no connection between the Slavs and the Cathars.
        And they were killed brutally and burned by the inhabitants of their own country. That's what it is about. For strangers, that is, for Russians there would have been even more cruelties. They would have slaughtered, killed in one way or another. And they would not share their Western civilizations. In the Donbass, OSCE representatives continue not to notice how Russians are being killed.
        There have never been any other options for Europe. They simply cannot do this.
        1. avva2012
          avva2012 April 18 2016 11: 33
          +1
          Quote: Reptiloid And they were killed brutally and burned by the inhabitants of their own country. That's what it is about.

          For that they burned and killed, read? You think that is not deserved? This heresy, they wanted to extend to the maximum number of people. They killed (which was not considered a sin) and burned Catholic churches. They just killed people. Their godbrothers, the Albigensians, generally in Europe at that time, were valued as hired killers.
          No doubt, they would burn and kill, having come to us, but there well deserved here not. This is the difference in my opinion.
          1. Reptiloid
            Reptiloid April 18 2016 12: 47
            -1
            But don’t you know that they will turn a blind eye to all the killings of those who are different from them? Yugoslavia, Libya, Syria. The Indians, finally, the Aborigines of Australia, Tasmania. Be sure --- they have everything proved. That's what I’m talking about.
            1. avva2012
              avva2012 April 18 2016 16: 05
              0
              Quote: Reptiloid But don’t you know that they will turn a blind eye to all the killings of those who are different from them? Yugoslavia, Libya, Syria. The Indians, finally, A
              Borigens of Australia, Tasmania. Be sure --- they have everything proved. That's what I mean.

              The point is not that "they have everything proven." Manichaeism, on the basis of which this heresy was created (+ Christianity, of course), was not one century before those events. About the monad, which was captured by chaos and as a result of which existence arose, is "known" from ancient Persia, even before the campaign of Alexander the Great. With the outwardly logical system, it all ended in the same denial of the world. The denial of the world is the denial of life as such. It is believed that this teaching entered in the form of the "Lightbringer" into Christianity. So, the point, in this case, is in ideology. Fascism, after all, also remains fascism, no matter where it is and on what national soil has taken root.
              1. Reptiloid
                Reptiloid April 19 2016 01: 26
                0
                I came recently. Your link did not open for some reason. Watched the 2009 film Cathars, One of the consultants Anne Brenon or Anna? Wiki doesn't seem to have anything like that, which you wrote about, Jean Duvernois is mentioned. There are books in Russian, I will clarify. It is also written that there was a negative assessment earlier, but now it is changing that this (suppression) is one of the first precedents of the triumph of totalitarianism in Europe .V Pravda.ru --- closer to your words, but not so awful. I'll take a look later. Such a thought about different sources --- now someone is praising Russia, someone is calling it an aggressor country, and our president is demonized and tries to stick all sins to him. Europe is against us at all times.
                1. avva2012
                  avva2012 April 19 2016 06: 14
                  +1
                  Quote: Reptiloid It is also written that there used to be a negative assessment, but now it is changing that this (suppression) is one of the first precedents in Europe for the triumph of totalitarianism.

                  Yes, on the Internet, the assessment of the Cathars and the Albigensians is now more with a positive connotation. I read about these sects in my youth from atheistic literature. I don’t remember the author and what the book was called, but it remained in my memory by the fact that there were no assessments about religion from the side of the Marxist-Leninist ideology. Rather, in the preface, statements about the religion of Lenin, the CPSU, and then, lo and behold, just a brief description of the main religious movements. Link that did not open: "Russian Historical Library".
                  And, yet, there was not in the history of more than one sect with a plus sign.
                  Any sect is totalitarian by definition.
                  To any world religion, a sect is extremely negative.
                  The entrance to the sect is the ruble, the exit is two. More truly, so to speak, usually, there is no way out at all.
                  With the emotional background of a future member of the sect, its leaders are better able to work than a professional psychotherapist. Especially they know how to manipulate with mental wounds.
                  "The basis of the organizational structure was its division into two groups -" perfect "(perfecti) and" believers "(credenti)." Believers "were required to contain" perfect. "One of the important rites of the sect was" worship ", when the" believers "three times stretched out on the ground before the 'perfect'. "
                  All, as always, alas. Power.
              2. Reptiloid
                Reptiloid April 19 2016 01: 33
                0
                Here's another thing I wanted. There were very good 3 large articles by VO Shpakovsky "Castles of the Cathars", then "Massacre in Beziers", there will be a sequel. Wonderful pictures. I hope you enjoy it. And I'll try to read it.
        2. Turkir
          Turkir April 19 2016 16: 29
          0
          You probably do not know that the Qatari "heresy" appeared among the Slavs of Bulgaria under the name "bogumily". And, going to the West, she accepted both different names and so different variations. Manicheans, Albigensians, Cathars.
          It is better to read books than watch films, for example: Osokin. History of the Albigensians.
          Or look into the Wiki, just in case:
          "Bogomils is the name of the anti-clerical movement of the X-XV centuries, which appeared in the Balkans (Bulgaria) and influenced the French Cathars. The founder of the movement was priest Bogomil. The earliest information about the Bogomils is in the book" Conversation against the Bogomils "by Kozma Presbyter (X century) . "
          1. Reptiloid
            Reptiloid April 19 2016 16: 58
            -1
            Bogomilas and Cathars are not the same thing, it’s written so. Yes, influence, but not one. The film is notable for the consultants (they write books) and the country --- France. The idea is that Catharism is reviving in France. The portal Genocid.ru is about the Cathars, and not about the Bogomil. In general, I gave the example of the Cathars precisely because it’s close in time, it would be the same cruelty for us. Does anyone think that Europe is in a hurry to share knowledge with us? Well, who puts the cons. Once again I repeat --- empathy for Europe --- not for Russians, not for the USSR, not for Russia. The president and the Russian people are demonized. And before that --- Gaddafi, Hussein, Assad .... .
            What does the mantis have to do with it?
            W --- I read, Here the interlocutor Alexander admitted that the assessment of the Cathars has become more positive.
  • volot-voin
    volot-voin April 18 2016 09: 25
    +1
    Russia still said Toda decisively no accession to the European Union)))
  • Nikita Gromov
    Nikita Gromov April 18 2016 09: 29
    +2
    Glory to our ancestors!
  • Pvi1206
    Pvi1206 April 18 2016 09: 32
    +1
    The first thing that the liberals took up when they came to power in 1991 was to rewrite the history of the Russian State. And before that, they tried to distort the true causes of various events in the history of our country. They especially tried to denigrate the activities of Ivan the Terrible, Paul I, Nicholas II, other Russian tsars, Stalin I.V.
    They cannot be forbidden to write history, but it is in our power not to read their opuses.
    And children need to be convinced that not all the history taught in the lessons is true ...
    1. Kenneth
      Kenneth April 18 2016 09: 48
      +1
      Unique offer not to read. But does the thought of reading and comparing and thinking not attract you?
  • Altona
    Altona April 18 2016 09: 47
    +3
    Konstantin Simonov's poem “Ice Battle”:Already mixed people, horses... It seems he is also a great poet, but in Lermontov he took the image from the poem "Borodino". As for the event itself, the British scientists are not authority at all in this matter. We decide for ourselves what is important to us in history. They themselves are hundreds of times worse than us, both the colonialists and the organizers of the genocide of many peoples. So let millions of Irish, Indians, Boers and others wash, repent and return from the other world.
    1. andrew42
      andrew42 April 19 2016 15: 15
      0
      "..and the colonialists, and the organizers of the genocide of many peoples." Yes, everything is much worse with them. Good old England fell in 1066. And then - solid "first night right". The real Anglo-Saxons (the national elite) laid down in the ground at Hastings, and dispersed to the Tsargrad.
  • koralvit
    koralvit April 18 2016 09: 48
    +1
    The work of all Western pseudo-historians is directed at Russian youth and their activities cannot be underestimated. In Ukraine, they did it. Therefore, one cannot allow different foreign pseudo-teachers into schools and universities. And our liberals are doing this, taking over everything from the West, and first of all, our Minister of Education of the city of Livanov. You can’t take Russia directly, but in this way, changing the mentality of youth, they can achieve success.
    1. kalibr
      kalibr April 18 2016 12: 07
      0
      Have you read at least one of their work in the original language?
  • guzik007
    guzik007 April 18 2016 09: 48
    +2
    The best proof of the Battle on the Ice, as a historical fact, must be archaeological finds at the bottom of the lake. Just imagine, tons of "sryndivek misery". But, alas, so far, despite numerous expeditions, none have been found. Either they cannot determine the place from ancient manuscripts, as it was for a long time with the Kulikovo field (but they found it just recently!), Although the Crow Stone seems to have been found, or...
    Just don't consider me a "liberal", I would really like to be found.: =)
    1. VP
      VP April 18 2016 10: 40
      0
      Quote: guzik007
      The best evidence of the Battle of the Ice as a historical fact should be archaeological finds at the bottom of the lake.

      This is a conspiracy, og. Not only our annals are fake, but also Western ones, especially so that after almost a millennium they will mislead visitors to Internet resources.
      1. kalibr
        kalibr April 18 2016 12: 10
        0
        And at the same time under Nicholas the Second, they secretly pulled out and melted everything from the lake so that the descendants would not get it. Masons, however!
        1. Roman 11
          Roman 11 April 18 2016 15: 10
          0
          Quote: kalibr
          during the reign of Nicholas II, all of the lake was secretly taken out and melted

          For 700 years, the bottom is very silty, can it scan deeper? Suddenly they will find some helmet or sword, this will be a sensation!
          1. kalibr
            kalibr April 18 2016 15: 47
            -1
            In 1961-62 looking for an expedition of the Academy of Sciences. They did not spare money and ... found nothing.
    2. ver_
      ver_ April 18 2016 14: 54
      +3
      ... the armor was expensive .. Perhaps there were a lot of hunters in the heat behind them ..
  • Mikhail Matyugin
    Mikhail Matyugin April 18 2016 09: 52
    +3
    Quote: varov14
    Alexander knew with whom to build bridges, after all, we have lived with the Tatars for centuries, complementing each other, which not some have others. We "love" Western friends for these same centuries, as they do us and always mutually.
    At that time, there was no "peace" with the Tatar-Mongols, Russia was completely conquered by them, even those parts that did not undergo direct capture were included in the Horde, thanks primarily to the actions of Cl. Yaroslav and Prince Alexander.

    Quote: ver_
    .. Orthodoxy in the time of Alexander Nevsky and Orthodoxy now are two big differences .. Yaroslav Vsevolodovich, the father of Nevsky, executed Prince Chernigovsky and ordered Alexander to destroy his brother Andrei for treason (Alexander caught up and executed Andrey ..) Religion in Russia was - Paganism - polytheism, and the Semites planted Christianity
    Firstly, about religion - it’s rather more correct to talk about the dual faith of a certain part of society. Secondly, Prince Yaroslav is really a very little nice person. And Prince Andrew, brother of Prince Alexander, really tried to start a national liberation war, his army was defeated by the Mongols and Alexander's squad, after which he managed to escape to Sweden.
    1. ver_
      ver_ April 18 2016 12: 21
      0
      ... how you managed the Mongols from the 19th century to drag into the 14th century - you are our talented ..
  • Roman 11
    Roman 11 April 18 2016 09: 55
    +1
    In general, the author remembered the battle in what context? If purely from this military point, then we need to talk about it. If about the distortion of history, the withering of patriotism - then this is another topic, also important, but I would like to discuss the battle itself and at least briefly the history of the ancient Russian state, otherwise vinaigrette - some mushrooms, some - firewood laughing
  • Basil50
    Basil50 April 18 2016 10: 02
    +1
    The Livonian Order attacked only when it was sure that no one could resist Russia. Traitors and then conspirators did everything to facilitate capture. The victory of ALEXANDER NEVSKI destroyed the plans of * European integrators * and they did not forgive. ALEXANDER NEVSKY was poisoned. And they made him * saints * strongly after the events, only when the church ceased to see the enemy in him.
    Many centuries passed and everything repeated, they tried to destroy the very possibility of resistance and when they considered that everything was ready to attack. But today everyone who dared to defeat * Euro-integrators * is trying to denigrate what they just do not * open *, came to outright forgery, and of course the communists and STALIN get the most, for daring .... There is nothing new, except for technical capabilities to spread * rumors * and outright lies. But with time and AND IN STALIN will be counted as saints, our grandchildren will already see this.
    1. Kenneth
      Kenneth April 18 2016 21: 07
      +1
      Or maybe Alexander invaded the territory of the order. The advance detachment was defeated at Hammast, and then Alexander retreated, and the order pursued and the battle took place on the border lake.
  • kon125
    kon125 April 18 2016 10: 13
    +6
    I’m not good at all. It seems that some commentators are not at odds with half the brain. An article about the Battle of the Ice. What does Svyatoslav have to do with this? Probably some commentators write texts directly from the saddle of a war horse, and the club interferes with concentration. Again, the Khazar head dangles on a stirrup, stinks, no conditions for analysis. Foreigners surround, Darkness, in a word,
    1. Roman 11
      Roman 11 April 18 2016 10: 39
      0
      Quote: kon125
      I am pretty good.

      Here they write about everything that’s sore, a complaints book ...... and in general how do you submit a petition, forgotten how to write? laughing
    2. kalibr
      kalibr April 18 2016 12: 11
      -6
      Yes, here the brain foam regularly competes with professionalism and knowledge, and the latter do not always win!
  • S_Baykala
    S_Baykala April 18 2016 10: 16
    +1
    With his victory, the then European Union brought the Nevsky to its knees for 20 years: several hundred knights decided. At that time, the equipped knight cost as it is now, let's say "Leopard 2". I can admit inaccuracy, but even an average knight's horse (an ordinary peasant horse will not carry this mountain of metal and, most importantly, will not be able to gain the speed necessary for a ramming strike) was worth like a herd of cows. And also armor. The ancestors of this victory frightened the Germans so much that only after 700 (!) Years they risked again getting stars in our area. Now, until 2600, you can be calm about the Germans. drinks
    1. Roman 11
      Roman 11 April 18 2016 10: 57
      +1
      Quote: S_Baykala
      The ancestors of this victory so frightened the Germans that only after 700 (!) Years they risked to get stars in our area again.

      It happened before, Friedrich was kneaded in a paste on the Seven Years and Berlin was taken for the first time - A few years before the First World War Chef of the Russian 13th Hussar Narva Regiment Wilhelm II (Emperor of Germany) visited the sponsored regiment. Going around the hussar system, the German emperor asked why the St. George standard was granted to the regiment. A clear answer sounded: "For the capture of Berlin, Your Majesty." Kaiser replied: “This is very good, but it’s better to never repeat this again!” And he was lucky, he did not live to see the fall of Berlin.
    2. Mikhail Matyugin
      Mikhail Matyugin April 18 2016 12: 32
      +1
      Quote: S_Baykala
      The ancestors of this victory so frightened the Germans that only after 700 (!) Years they risked to get stars in our area again.

      I agree with your analogy of a knight with a tank. But I’ll enlighten one moment - the armament of the Russian warrior of the 13 century HAS BEEN MORE HEAVY THAN WEAPONING THE EUROPEAN KNIGHT. Here is such a fact.

      And secondly, you showed that you know NOTHING about the wars of Russia with orders. Google such a word - RAKVOR BATTLE.
  • Cartalon
    Cartalon April 18 2016 10: 36
    +1
    Comments, of course, deliver, Kazakhs are not enough how to catch up will be even more fun
  • Furious bambr
    Furious bambr April 18 2016 10: 38
    +1
    He taught a poem at school, watched a film in the army about fifteen times, a friend takes part in historical reconstruction and often in the armor of a German knight ... An ice battle has haunted me all my life smile More articles are needed on the history and formation of Russia hi
    1. kalibr
      kalibr April 18 2016 12: 12
      0
      In armor from head to toe?
  • VSkilled
    VSkilled April 18 2016 10: 53
    +3
    I was at one time on a business trip to China.

    Just at the time when all kinds of liberals in our country called to repent and "sprinkle ashes on our heads."
    All these endless chewing of nasal mucus from TV screens.

    Came to China - as if from a musty cellar into the fresh air.

    Penetrated without even knowing the language. Bo, there, if any Chinese man wins even the most modest, but - victory, he will be shown and praised ten times.

    As a result, people live, although not richly, but - not sadly. They, and - want to live, and - work.
    This, by the way - is one of the essential components of the reason that China - not only did not fall apart, but - continues to lead the economy, in spite of any crises.

    Therefore, all kinds of "wives" who, under the guise of "striving for historical objectivity" deliberately underestimate our victories, are the most common enemies.
    Quinta columna.

    HOW are paid for their services, whether "greyhound puppies", in the form of publications in foreign scientific journals, or - directly, despicable "silver coins", this is a separate question.

    But, one must remember this, and treat such "figures" accordingly.

    Their task is to induce general melancholy and despondency. They - in any "sun", spots - will find.
    Their work is such ...

    “Not the one who was in trouble, but the one who fell in spirit.” ©

    «
    - Where does the bird flight begin?
    - From when the bird becomes proud!
    »©
    1. avva2012
      avva2012 April 18 2016 11: 07
      +3
      Quote: VSkilled HOW are their services paid?

      According to the dachshund. AS in a brothel. Bulk-young and promising. One price. Makarevich is shabby. So they do not pay much attention.
      Therefore, all kinds of "wives" who, under the guise of "striving for historical objectivity" deliberately underestimate our victories, are the most common enemies. Quinta columna.

      Add nothing. Briefly and to the point.
  • voyaka uh
    voyaka uh April 18 2016 11: 47
    -3
    Lev Gumilyov, who considers Alexander Nevsky great
    a warrior and a brilliant politician, nonetheless wrote,
    that there could not be more than 100 knights on Lake Peipsi.
    The real figure, in his opinion, is 80.
    The danger was that after such a relatively small
    defeat Livonians could throw a cry throughout Europe
    and really get hundreds of knights.
    Therefore, Alexander hastened to the Horde to ask for an alliance and military assistance
    among the Tatars.
    1. kalibr
      kalibr April 18 2016 12: 26
      -1
      He calculated it by the number of locks ... + a certain number of "guests".
    2. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov April 18 2016 12: 42
      0
      Quote: voyaka uh
      a warrior and a brilliant politician, nonetheless wrote,
      that there could not be more than 100 knights on Lake Peipsi.
      The real figure, in his opinion, is 80.

      Yes, 80 knights gathered and went Russia to conquer wassat
      1. Kenneth
        Kenneth April 18 2016 13: 01
        +1
        Plus servants, plus bollards, plus militias of subservient lands, plus miracle units. Maybe a couple of thousand have accumulated. Of these, a couple of hundred decently cavalry.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. Roman 11
        Roman 11 April 18 2016 14: 11
        +1
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        Yes, 80 knights gathered and went Russia to conquer

        Thought, thought, thought, yes, and wrote Comrade Gumilyov laughing
        1. Cartalon
          Cartalon April 18 2016 14: 16
          0
          Well, you challenge Gumilyov whether science does not stand still find the data on the number of knights
  • Mikhail Matyugin
    Mikhail Matyugin April 18 2016 12: 18
    +5
    Quote: guzik007
    The best proof of the Battle on the Ice, as a historical fact, must be archaeological finds at the bottom of the lake. Just imagine, tons of "sryndivek misery". But, alas, so far, despite numerous expeditions, none have been found, or the place cannot be determined from ancient manuscripts, as it was for a long time with the Kulikovo field.
    In general, the battle itself is clearly described in German chronicles as taking place ON EARTH ON THE LAKE - only pursuit was on the ice of the lake. From here on the bottom of the lake there simply should not be any serious amount of armor (simply because the winners collected weapons from corpses and prisoners).

    Quote: voyaka uh
    Therefore, Alexander hastened to the Horde to ask for an alliance and military assistance from the Tatars.
    A little bit wrong - he was already a vassal of the Tatars, like his father from 1238 of the year. And the Novgorod Republic waged war with the Bishopric of Derpt and the Livonian Order already being part of the Golden Horde in fact (and hence the presence of a certain detachment of equestrian shooters attacking the Germans' right, unshielded flank (while the prince's squad hit them on the left flank) - the truth is unclear or Kipchaks from the contingent sent from the Horde, or even the Tatar-Mongol themselves).
    1. Roman 11
      Roman 11 April 18 2016 14: 23
      +1
      Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
      or even the Tatar-Mongol themselves).

      It is doubtful that the western campaign was rounded off just in 1242, + for everything about everything, and here also to the border with Livonia - for a total of 3 months of the 42nd, it’s not enough of course, exhausted, exhausted, with booty ...... we know about swift long-distance movements of the Mongolian cavalry, but even here - it was winter, there is not much green grass), the strength of horses is not the same .....
    2. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh April 18 2016 16: 31
      0
      "And the Novgorod Republic fought a war with the Dorpat bishopric and the Livonian Order, already being part of the Golden Horde in fact" ///

      Thanks for the amendment. I read Gumilyov an awful long time and forgot the story.
  • sogdianec
    sogdianec April 18 2016 12: 48
    +1
    Quote: g1v2
    It is interesting when the time of feudalism is trying to present from the point of view of modern concepts. Then there were no national states, but citizenship and vassalism. For Pskov - that the Prince of Novgorod, that the master of the Livonian Order or the Bishop of Derpt were just neighbor feudal lords. Today, the Pskovians could go to plunder the Estonians together with the Novgorodians, and tomorrow, with the knights, they could pluck the Novgorodians. And no one saw anything wrong with that. Feudalism, however. More or less, a national state in our country appeared only under Ivan the Terrible - before that it was just the Moscow principality, competing with other principalities.


    Not quite so, the conflict, so to speak, was on religious grounds, not national. Crusade - for baptism by fire and sword of heretics and pagans, whom we Orthodox considered.
    In modern language: the crusaders wanted to commit genocide on religious grounds.
  • Kenneth
    Kenneth April 18 2016 12: 59
    +2
    By the way I noticed. As soon as the author put the topic of liberal historians in the title, immediately local patriots with general epaulettes became excited and unanimously showed that for most of them the knowledge about the event is based on the famous film and the half-forgotten paragraph from the history textbook. This is me to the fact that maybe it’s not worthwhile to make the headlines words so politicizing the topic. Maybe it’s just worth discussing the various versions and trying to prove that some is more real, and not reduce an interesting topic to ours, not ours.
    1. Roman 11
      Roman 11 April 18 2016 14: 43
      +1
      Quote: Kenneth
      Maybe it’s just worth discussing the various versions and trying to prove that some is more real, and not reduce an interesting topic to ours, not ours.

      You can agree somewhere, but the times are different now. Some rubbish is being imposed on us from the west, and it’s very strong, maybe not everyone is tracking it ..... but .... we are definitely being pressed from some laboratory by our intrusive experiments. And comparing what happened during the collapse of the Union and now is incomprehensible - like 1 in 1! You do not notice, do not notice, do not notice ...... then abruptly bam AND THREE TERRITORIES NO. They may not yet be needed by laboratory assistants - their goal is Russia, and then these small hectares will be completely disappearing, maybe people will not live ... The war has been going on since May 45th, with a smoke break and for someone a victory in the 91st.
      1. Kenneth
        Kenneth April 18 2016 16: 11
        +3
        Around the enemies. Paranoia?
  • mamont5
    mamont5 April 18 2016 13: 13
    0
    Quote: Alexander Romanov
    There were good times then. The defense of the Russian land and no liberals, communists, edrosov, opposition, and even hell knows who.

    Oh well, and then there were all sorts, which by the way is perfectly shown in the famous film "Alexander Nevsky". There were enough traitors even then. After all, the Pskov (pro-Western) elite surrendered their city to the Germans. She surrendered without any fight, but they had to take him with a fight.
  • ver_
    ver_ April 18 2016 13: 15
    0
    Quote: varov14
    Alexander knew with whom to build bridges, after all, we have lived with the Tatars for centuries, complementing each other, which not some have others. We "love" Western friends for these same centuries, as they do us and always mutually.


    Tatar = Khazarin = Cossack (later name) - horse warrior .. This is not a nationality .. Ulyanov Lenin "christened" the inhabitants of the former Bulgaria (defeated by Ivan the Terrible) - Tatars in his article and ...
  • mamont5
    mamont5 April 18 2016 13: 18
    +1
    Quote: Alexander Romanov
    Yes, 80 knights gathered and went Russia to conquer wassat


    Quote: Kenneth
    Plus servants, plus bollards, plus militias of subservient lands, plus miracle units. Maybe a couple of thousand have accumulated. Of these, a couple of hundred decently cavalry.


    Right. Knights are counted as commanders, each with its own detachment (banner-banner). In some banners there are a dozen people, in some - a hundred. Therefore, to calculate the exact number of troops is unrealistic.
  • Vadim42
    Vadim42 April 18 2016 13: 19
    +1
    The liberal in Russia is associated with a coward, a traitor, a venal skin, and people like him, not a democracy, cannot be fooled. Maybe it's time to come up with some kind of law like NPOs.
  • Gunther
    Gunther April 18 2016 13: 26
    -1
    Correct article, plus the author.
    Quote: Heimdall
    Explain then, fellow countryman Svyatoslav says that in Pereyaslavets on the Danube, where "all good things converge", from Russia comes "quickly and wax honey and servants" - who are servants? Convicted under Article 58? -

    I explain:
    Speech Svyatoslav to his mother and to his boyars:
    “I don’t like to live in Kiev, I want to live in Pereyaslavtsi in the Danube, as if it were mine land, like all good things to converge: from Grokk pavoloki, gold, wine and vegetables of different sizes, and I-Shchekhov and from Ugor - silver and komoni "From Russia, it was soon, and wax, and honey, and servants."

    Where is the word in this text I sell Svyatoslav, for the elimination of ignorance, I recommend I.Ya. Froyanov (On the question of servants in Russia at the end of the XNUMXth - beginning of the XNUMXth century): "the servants are not just slaves, but prisoners-slaves ... I do not,. ....... servants, slave - a foreigner".
    So the darkness is right - surrenders, you're lying, dear man
    1. Heimdall47
      Heimdall47 April 18 2016 13: 45
      +1
      I explain:

      Shitty interpret.
      I recommend I.Ya. Froyanova

      Well, if you recommend:
      I.Ya. Froyanov:
      We believe a misunderstanding of the essence of chelyandinstvo. The servants are not just slaves, but captive slaves, often non-Slavs

      Do you understand the word - "often", which you modestly omitted and which radically changes the meaning of the phrase? I wrote earlier -
      Slavic /Finnish slaves wagons (rooks) every spring exported to Greek markets

      Those. Russ traded not only Slavs. And always captured. What is mentioned in the above quotes.
      What did I lie about?
      in this text I sell the word Svyatoslav

      Nowhere. But should it be there? Do you think that servants were brought from Russia for sale without the desire of Svyatoslav? He resisted, and the merchants drove everything and sold?
      Incidentally, sending trade caravans to Byzantium was a state affair in Russia.
      So you, citizen, lied))
  • Gunther
    Gunther April 18 2016 14: 37
    -1
    Quote: Heimdall47
    Persian historian of the XNUMXth century Gardisi writes that the Russians "attack the Slavs, drive up to them on ships, land, take them prisoner."

    For now, I will take it on faith that the quote matches, but where is at least one word that prisoners were sold wagons (boats) - lying again, distort.
    Not good.
    Prisoners could be killed, exchanged, demanded ransom, etc.
    You are specific facts, not your fantasies.
    1. Heimdall47
      Heimdall47 April 18 2016 14: 46
      +1
      that prisoners were sold in wagons (boats) - you’re lying again, distort.
      Not good.

      Citizen, you just cynically lied, radically distorting the meaning of the above quote, thinking that I will not check laughing And after that you blame me for lying?
  • Gunther
    Gunther April 18 2016 14: 47
    -4
    Quote: Heimdall47
    Nowhere. But should it be there? Do you think that servants were brought from Russia for sale without the desire of Svyatoslav? He resisted, and all merchants
    drove and sold?

    That is, you admit that you lied about claiming to trade Svyatoslav Slavs (Finns), your fantasies about Svyatoslav’s desires are not taken for a fact)))
    1. Heimdall47
      Heimdall47 April 18 2016 14: 58
      +3
      Here is what the recommended I.Ya. Froyanov writes

      According to the story of Konstantin, on the fourth Dnieper threshold, all the rooks of the dews “approach the ground forward with their noses, with them the men appointed to guard the guard come out and leave. They vigilantly guard over the pachinakites. And the others, taking the things that they had in the monoxyls, lead the slaves in chains overland for six miles until they pass the threshold. ”332 From here it’s clear who needs to be seen in the servants sent to the market with other different goods. The servants are slaves going in regular batches to the Byzantine market.

      Do you believe Comrade Froyanov? And do you believe that regular deliveries of slaves to the markets of Byzantium could go without the sanction of the Kiev prince? Do you think Svyatoslav was a fool?