Military Review

MG 34 vs DP-27 infantry unit

280
Is it really outdated "Tar".


It is generally accepted that the MG-34 squad was "steeper" than the DP-27 squad, it seemed to be correct - Hitler's Circular had a rate of fire of 800-900 rds / min, seeding everything in its path, giving another a reason for the pride of fans of "guys in mouse overcoats", however ....

But, first, let's start with a general comparison of the subject.

German infantry unit.
Number - 10 people:
1. Squad leader (submachine gun) - 1 person. 
2. Deputy squad leader (magazine rifle) - 1 person. 
3. First shooter - (MG 34 machine gun + P08 pistol) - 1 person.
4. Second shooter - assistant machine gunner - (pistol P08) - 1 person. 
5. The third shooter - assistant machine gunner - (rifle 98K) - 1 person. 
6. Shooters (rifle M 98K) - 5 people. 
In service: 7 magazine rifles (Mauser 98k), 2 pistols P08 (Parabellum) or P38 (Walter), 1 assault rifle (MP-38) and 1 light machine gun (MG 34) 
The basis of the combat power of the infantry squad was a light machine gun. The Wehrmacht infantry department was armed with an MG 34 light machine gun. 
MG 34 had the following tactical and technical characteristics:
Rate of fire, rds / min .: 800-900 (combat 100).
Weight, kg: 12.
Sighting range: 700 m
Maximum firing range: from the bipod no more than 1200 m (3500 m on the machine).

The whole tactics of the Wehrmacht infantry unit was built around a single 7,92 mm Maschinengewehr 34 (MG 34) machine gun. He is considered the first single machine gun, allowed to fire both from a special machine and from a bipod, if necessary, from the shoulder of the second number. However, it is worth noting that at the branch level MG 34 was used manually. The calculation of the light machine gun in the infantry unit consisted of the machine gunner and his assistant, they were attached to the shooter - the carrier of ammunition. They all owned a machine gun. The machine gun had the ability to quickly change the barrel. Equipped with a tape of 50 rounds of ammunition (with the ability to connect into tapes of 250 units). The duty of the second number is to feed the tape, preventing misalignment. In the department, if necessary, any fighter could become a machine gunner. Since 1942, the MG 34 machine gun has been replaced with MG 42.
MG 34 vs DP-27 infantry unit


German infantry unit. In the foreground, back - the second number with a box of ribbons for 250 cartridges and a tube of spare barrels. On the left, the fighter is holding another box for 250 tape cartridges - "Patronenkasten 34

Soviet infantry unit.
The number of shooting department was 11 people.
1. The squad leader (self-loading rifle SVT) - 1 people.
2. The Heavy (gun / revolver and DP-27 light machine gun) - 1 people.
3. Assistant machine gunner (self-loading rifle SVT) - 1 people.
4. Gunmen (machine guns PPSH / PPD) - 2 people.
5. Arrows (self-loading rifles SVT) - 6 people.
In service: 8 self-loading rifles (SVT-38, SVT-40), 1 pistol (TT), 2 assault rifle (PPD / PPSH) and one light machine gun (Degtyaryova DP-27 machine gun). The basis of the Soviet rifle squad, just like that of the German infantry, was the 7,62 mm machine gun of Degtyaryov, an infantry model, 1927g (DP-27), which remained the main automatic weapons rifle squad to 1944 g., when the release and entry into the troops of its modernized version of the PDM.
DP-27 had the following characteristics:
Rate of fire, rds / min .: 500 — 600 (Combat 80)
Weight, kg: 9,12
Sighting range: 800 m
Maximum shooting range: up to 2500

The DP-27 light machine gun, as a rule, is the first to move to a new position when attacking, and when it leaves the battle it leaves the last, under the cover of rifle fire. Light machine gunners go on the attack together with the riflemen of their squad, firing on the move. When reflecting tank enemy attacks, the light machine gun fights mainly against infantry following tanks and on tanks, and at short distances (100-200 m), in case of emergency, it can fire at the most vulnerable places of the tank (viewing slots, sighting devices and etc.). During exercises and hostilities, the machine gun was served by two people: the shooter and his assistant, who carried a box with 3 disks.


It looked like this Soviet infantry unit with a machine gun DP-27 and automatic rifles.


So, we have two practically equal in number offices, but with essentially different light machine guns and different infantry weapons. And here is the main question: how can we compare two difficult comparable items?

For example, on the roads of war two opposing attacking squads met. Let us try to determine the power of the branch without machine guns, in a situation - the machine gunner is contused. With the naked eye it is clear that the Soviet branch, armed with eight SVT, is far ahead of the Germans with their 7 Mauser in the mass of volley (Mauser 98K rifle - 12-15 shots per minute, SVT-40 rifle - 20-25 shots per minute). In fact, we have a "distributed machine gun". We note that in the event of the German machine gun’s failure, the squadron sharply lost firepower, unlike the Soviet one.
However, here, two of our machine-gunners come to life, and here the odds instantly goes over to the side of the Germans - the “wild” rate of fire in 900 fps / min. and the tape in 250 cartridges instead of the DP-27 disc on 49 ... seemingly transfers ... The fact is that in the manual version, the MG machine gunner alone could only shoot with a magazine on 50 cartridges.


Patronenrommel 34 on 75 cartridges, requiring the installation of a modified feeder box lid, was not actively used after 1940 due to problems with the feeding of cartridges.



Fight in the village


For firing a long ribbon, a second number was required, and the box or the second number was in the hands of the box. The second number also held a machine gun on his shoulder. Two or even three people together were a good target even for a light mortar, making it possible to determine the most significant goal of the German branch.



For the DP-27, the second number is needed as a “projectile carrier” - a person delivering disks. Shooting itself did not require an additional assistant. "This is compensated by the rate of fire!" - exclaim lovers of gray-green overcoats. But how to say, the fact is that both sections could not take an infinite number of cartridges, so they shot from the heart mostly from stationary positions (or from a car) - in defense, when "Asian hordes wave at the machine gun" and the machine gunner "went off crazy! " In the attack, however, shooting in short bursts was used, with 80-100 rounds of fire per minute. At the same time, in the DP, as in MG, a change in the superheated stem was provided - I will note how I tried to do this operation - it is easier and faster for the German, but not many times (it takes half a minute to replace the stem with DP). However, experienced machine-gunners tried to avoid overheating, keeping a high and effective rate of fire (although it was difficult at machiningever). As for the advantages of DP, except for single use: the disks and the ease of refueling them with bare hands, the ease of the machine gun itself, its unpretentiousness, sufficient practical rate of fire. The advantages of MG 34 can be added: versatility, tape power, high positional rate of fire. In general, the separation from the SVT and DP-27 in the mobile battle was not inferior to that of the Wehrmacht with the 98k and MG 34. And when the forces are equal, the skill and training of the personnel comes forward.



In conclusion, I must say a few words about the cost and reliability of these types. Just a couple of words. As most of our educated readers guess (and our readers are all educated), MG 34 was seriously technically more difficult to maintain, technologically more capacious to produce and more expensive than DP-27.

Should we assume that the DP-27 was "the best and perfect, surpassing everything in the world"? No, but there were factors that were extremely important for the initial period of the war - low prices, production skills, ease of use. In skillful hands, with a competent commander, the DP-27 could give a fitting rebuff to the enemy, while possessing highly modest technical "tabular" data.

In conclusion, a couple of photos of the use of trophies by opponents.




http://army.lv/?id=430&s=3140
http://mistervik.livejournal.com/
http://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/36/1430817-3.html
http://topwar.ru/34624-pila-gitlera-i-ee-nasledniki-ot-mg42-do-mg3.html
http://popgun.ru/viewtopic.php?f=149&t=17759&start=20
http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/
280 comments
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  1. WYCCTPUJIA
    WYCCTPUJIA April 23 2016 05: 24
    +61
    I have a question. Why did the author assume that our department is armed with SVT, and not with "three lines"?
    Then the alignment is a little different. hi
    Thanks for the article.
    1. bistrov.
      bistrov. April 23 2016 07: 58
      +49
      Quote: WYCCTPUJIA
      Why did the author take into account that our department is armed with SVT

      The author probably has in mind the situation at the beginning of the war; earlier, the rearmament of the Red Army was begun; almost all the rifle troops in the western districts were already re-equipped with self-loading and even automatic rifles.
      1. Rus2012
        Rus2012 April 23 2016 10: 11
        +7
        Quote: bistrov.
        The author probably refers to the situation at the beginning of the war.


        ///exactly! At the beginning of the war! For, after the start, comparing becomes even more difficult ...
        1. SuperFly
          SuperFly April 23 2016 22: 21
          -5
          At the very beginning of the war, 90% of the SVT were captured by the Germans in border warehouses, so here it was the other way around.
          An overheated barrel on the MG changes faster than its tape.
          1. shasherin.pavel
            shasherin.pavel April 24 2016 10: 39
            +13
            Quote: SuperFly
            At the very beginning of the war, 90% SVT were captured by the Germans in border warehouses,

            This phrase says that only 10% of those stored in the warehouses were transferred to the troops from the warehouses in the border warehouses, but in the border warehouses there were the number of rifles needed to mobilize from the reserve in the border units, and not all the Red Army rifles. You must be careful when reading other people's materials.
            1. SuperFly
              SuperFly April 24 2016 14: 59
              0
              This phrase means what it means - in the Wehrmacht in service was SVT 9 times more pain than in the SA.
              All SVT except the naval ones and cartridges for them were brought to warehouses in the URs in advance, mobilized soldiers should have received them there.
              As a result, in the first years of the war, in each Wehrmacht branch there were 1-2 soldiers armed with SVT; according to the statements, it passed like a light machine gun.
              PPSh was also more popular because of the flimsy-moki MP-40
              1. Old
                Old April 25 2016 07: 16
                +1
                I'll give you a plus. It is difficult for "patriots" to admit these facts. About a million SVT fell into the hands of the Fritzes at the beginning of the war.
                1. BAI
                  BAI April 25 2016 09: 23
                  +5
                  Well actually. something like this:
                  "In the summer-autumn battles of 1941 alone, Soviet troops lost 440 thousand revolvers and pistols (32% of the total resource, which was in service with the Red Army in 1941); 5,55 million rifles and carbines (59,6% ); 100 thousand submachine guns (50%); 134,7 thousand light machine guns (62,4%); 54,7 thousand heavy machine guns (64,6%); 1,4 thousand large-caliber machine guns (38,9 , 8,8%); 49,7 thousand PTR (1941%). In total, during the period of the most intense battles of 1942-60, the Red Army lost during the retreat over XNUMX% of the weapons in service. "
              2. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA April 25 2016 12: 54
                +3
                Quote: SuperFly
                All SVT except the naval ones and cartridges for them were brought to warehouses in the URs in advance, mobilized soldiers should have received them there.

                And what, besides mobilized soldiers, there were no one in the divisions of the border districts? wink
                How many people in peacetime was in the rifle division in the state of 4/100 or 4/120? And what were they armed with?
    2. andrewkor
      andrewkor April 23 2016 08: 06
      -5
      Join! A completely artificial assumption!
      And one more note: both machine guns are descendants of WWI period samples, DP-27 is Lewis, MG-38 is MG-08-18!
      1. Roll of wallpaper
        Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 09: 02
        .
        Quote: andrewkor
        DP-27 is Lewis

        No, it's worse than Lewis. This is the Browning M1918. Only a store like Lewis. Nothing more to do.
      2. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I April 23 2016 13: 06
        +61
        Quote: andrewkor
        And one more note: both machine guns are descendants of WWI period samples, DP-27 is Lewis, MG-38 is MG-08-18!

        What nonsense !? Can you make such "bold" statements on the "similarity" of individual details? belay Well then, I will also release my "cockroaches" into the wild! Namely: PPSh-41 is "made" of MR (MP) -28, and the English "Sterling" is made of PPSh-41 ..... the trunks (casings) are similar! "American" М3А1 is "a converted MP (MP) -38 (because they are similar!). What do DP-27 and Lewis have in common? External similarity," gas outlet "principle of operation, type of store - only! Even if you take a store -" plate "... In DP-27, cartridges are fed by a spring. And in Lewis, by the action of an external mechanism. MG-08-18 is a" converted "" maxim ", and MG-34 is an independent development, which has technical solutions different from MG -08-18. You can also say that the AK-47 is a "converted" StG-44 ... only you will not be original, there are already enough "willing". Only now .... even Americans (big fans of refuting "Russianness "many inventions, products) and they recognized the AK-47 as a Russian design.
        1. Bredovich705
          Bredovich705 April 23 2016 14: 00
          +14
          I agree with all the cockroaches!
        2. dumkopff
          dumkopff April 23 2016 14: 46
          +10
          "Just a store like Lewis." After these words, there is no need to debate. It is immediately evident: the expert wrote.
          1. Roll of wallpaper
            Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 14: 57
            .
            Quote: dumkopff
            After these words you can not discuss. It is immediately obvious: the expert wrote.

            So no one is going to discuss with you. Mal is still.
            As for the store, is it not located on top, like Lewis’s and not round? No? Is it square and sideways?
            And nobody touched the device of shops, it was not about that.
          2. The comment was deleted.
      3. shasherin.pavel
        shasherin.pavel April 24 2016 10: 54
        +14
        What kind of eye do you need to look at machine guns to come to such a conclusion ?! Apparently in this eye they lit drunk and more than once! For some reason, Tokarev himself says that he took the "Browning" as a model, but only about the TT specialists wrote that "only Tokarev managed to combine such outstanding qualities in one pistol." It is enough just to choose the right one, according to the technical characteristics of the cartridge, the steepness of the grooves, and with 90% of the same parts, you will get different weapons. Find the WWII pistol test video and see the difference between the Parabellum and Walter firing. Both shoot with the same cartridge, but at Parabellum and the shot from the barrel, particles of burning powder fly out, and Walter's shot is clean. At the same time, Walter with a shorter barrel has more penetrating power than Parabellum. This is with the same cartridge. How can Lewis be confused with DP-27. Just because both have a round disc on top, it is impossible to confuse the magazines. For some reason, Lewis appeared in WWII only among the militia at the 1941 parade, while DP-27 and DPM successfully fought in Korea and Vietnam. They could be seen in Chechnya at the beginning of hostilities.
        1. AK64
          AK64 April 24 2016 11: 53
          +5
          pay attention to the difference between shooting from Parabellum and Walther. Both shoot with the same cartridge, but at Parabellum, particles of dying gunpowder fly out of the barrel, and at Walter the shot is clear. At the same time, with a shorter trunk, Walter has a breakdown force greater than that of Parabellum.


          And so legends are born ....
          In fact, the R-38 barrel on fourth (25%, or 2.5 cm) longer than Lugerowski.
    3. Stas57
      April 23 2016 08: 58
      +21
      Why did the author assume that our department is armed with SVT, and not with "three lines"?

      because it was a completely normal state No. 04 / 400-416, which formed the SD in the western districts at the beginning of the war. The state where our command, believing that the Democratic Party was weak, tried to compensate for this weakness by the presence of the SVT.
      There is absolutely no point in comparing the further situation — this is both a decrease in numbers and a deterioration in quality on our part, for obvious reasons.
      1. Sascha
        Sascha April 24 2016 22: 16
        +14
        Some of the veterans wrote in their memoirs that after 43g. in the offensive, in their company, when they were "on the front end," in general, all weapons were either unaccounted for domestic, or captured. For some Red Army men, this generally took on the features of painful collecting weapons. In order not to clutter up the carts, they gradually surrendered their standard weapons to the foreman. He will once again come to the company commander, and is indignant: "What are you fighting for, I have all your weapons, according to the papers are listed as handed over to the warehouse?" - and each soldier, in addition to a machine gun (machine gun) in his pockets, two or three pistols, a Finn in a boot, a bayonet on the farm ...
        Artillery crews of mortars and anti-tank artillery were sure to "acquire" unaccounted for machine guns, at least one per battery.
        Sometimes, even when in the howitzer artillery in the battery one extra gun was "attached", usually captured. The shells for him are not accounted for, there is no use limit for them, there is no need to hand over the casings, there is no need to keep any daily documentation on the ammunition consumption for them, and in the event of a dangerous situation, you can throw it on the battlefield with a light heart, and no "Smersh" for this won't ask.
        After each battle, it was possible to get hold of both domestic and captured weapons, leaving in the squad what was considered necessary in our opinion. It was not necessary to answer for him, to explain to the authorities in case of loss or damage, and not to fool with the accounting documents. And if the army is almost constantly advancing, then there are no problems with ammunition for captured weapons.
        Regular small arms passing through the papers - surrendered to the foreman for Khanation.
        1. xan
          xan April 26 2016 03: 32
          0
          Quote: Sascha
          Artillery crews of mortars and anti-tank artillery were sure to "acquire" unaccounted for machine guns, at least one per battery.

          In the PTA, one German machine gun per crew, or even two. This good is in bulk in the offensive. They didn’t give a damn about the infantry cover, which was shown by the Balaton operation. I read it on the site "I remember".
        2. Monarchist
          Monarchist 10 June 2016 22: 25
          0
          I talked with many veterans and they all say that the infantrymen preferred PPSh, and trophy pistols and bayonet-knives were auxiliary. Even artillerymen often used trophy machine guns and guns, and scouting weapons were often used in infantry (this is understandable)
    4. Lex.
      Lex. April 23 2016 09: 23
      +1
      Well, yes, and the Germans didn’t even have mp-40 rifles
      1. Roll of wallpaper
        Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 09: 27
        +11
        Quote: Lex.
        and the Germans didn’t even have mp-40 rifles

        Army rifle is a full-fledged army weapon. PP, this is an ersatz of army weapons. There should not be a place in the infantry squad, unless the commander. Ideally, of course.
        1. Lex.
          Lex. April 23 2016 10: 47
          +1
          The number of infantry squad was 10 people:. 1 Squad Leader (submachine gun) - 1 person 2. Deputy squad leader (magazine rifle) - 1 person. 3. The first shooter (Schütze) (light machine gun + pistol) -. 1 person 4 Second shooter - assistant machine gunner - (pistol) - 1 person. 5. The third shooter - assistant machine gunner - (magazine rifle) - 1 person. 6. Shooters (magazine rifle) - 5 people. Armed with: 7 magazine rifles (Mauser 98k), 2 pistols (P 08 (Parabellum) or P 38 (Walter)), 1 machine gun (MR-38 nicknamed "Schmeisser") and 1 light machine gun (MG 34) The basis of the combat power of the infantry The Wehrmacht infantry squad was armed with a MG 34 light machine gun.The MG 34 light machine gun had very good tactical and technical characteristics and was one of the best light machine guns of the Second World War.The MG 34 light machine gun was loaded with a rifle cartridge 7,92 × 57 mm Mauser, caliber 7,92 mm.This is a cartridge with a very high initial speed and good ballistics, which ensured a high range and accuracy of the machine gun.firing Sighting range From bipod up to 2000 m, from machine tool - up to 3000 m. Effective range from bipod 550 m, from the machine tool 1800 m. For comparison, the Degtyarev light machine gun (PD 38/40), which was in service with the rifle department of the Red Army, had an aiming range of -1500 m, and an effective range of up to 500 m. direct shot at the chest figure - 375 m.

          I have here other data the German branch in the battle of Stalingrad
          1. Stas57
            April 23 2016 10: 51
            +14
            Quote: Lex.
            I have here other data the German branch in the battle of Stalingrad

            already the summer states of 41 and later changed much.
            here we are talking about personnel officers at the beginning of the war.
          2. Roll of wallpaper
            Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 13: 45
            -9
            Quote: Lex.
            MG 34 machine gun had very good performance characteristics and was one of the best light machine guns of the Second World War.

            Apparently this is why such "light machine guns" were never produced anywhere else after the war. Post-war MG1 / 2/3 and beyond, they are different. Although they are similar.
            And the best 2MV handbrake were British handbrake. Right both.
            Quote: Lex.
            MG 34 machine gun equipped with a rifle cartridge 7,92 × 57 mm Mauser

            MG34 was equipped with a "machine-gun" modification of the 7,92 × 57 mm Mauser rifle cartridge. Therefore, in fact, it was an easel machine gun with a shortened barrel set for some reason on the bipod.
            The Germans did not have a normal 2MV light machine gun. We didn’t have time to create it; 6 years they were preparing for war.
            1. Forever so
              Forever so April 23 2016 14: 13
              +6
              And MG-42 ?? He seems to be considered the best machine gun of the Second World War ??
              1. Roll of wallpaper
                Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 14: 30
                -6
                Quote: Forever so
                And MG-42 ?? He seems to be considered the best machine gun of the Second World War ??

                1. Who is considered?
                2. What kind of machine gun?
                Best easel machine gun 2МВ normal caliber "MG34 can compete with the M1919. And this is the maximum that the Germans can claim with their rather backward weapons during WW2.
                As for the MG42, then this is cheap wartime. No, there were improvements, but objectively they say MG42 is worse than MG34. But also cheaper.
                1. revnagan
                  revnagan April 23 2016 15: 21
                  +4
                  Quote: Wallpaper Roll
                  And this is the maximum that the Germans can claim with their rather backward weapons during WW2.

                  laughing Well, yes, well, yes, where the Germans with their MP-38/40 to the same "Stan" (sarcasm and irony)!
                  1. Roll of wallpaper
                    Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 15: 27
                    -8
                    Quote: revnagan
                    where the Germans with their MR-38/40 to the same "Stan" (sarcasm and irony)!

                    What MP40, what Sten, is about the same UG. Due to the vapor choke. Worse were only the PP on the TT cartridge.
                    Only Americans (Tommy-gun) had very good PP during WW2. And the Hungarians had a good one (Danuvia). The rest is slag of one degree or another.
                  2. The comment was deleted.
                  3. AK64
                    AK64 April 24 2016 14: 38
                    +3
                    laughing Well, yes, well, yes, where the Germans with their MP-38/40 to the same "Stan" (sarcasm and irony)!

                    At the end of the 44th, the Germans began to sculpt exactly Stan (he personally saw an e-sample in the museum)
                    1. cuzmin.mihail2013
                      cuzmin.mihail2013 April 25 2016 18: 29
                      +2
                      They began to rivet "Stan" in connection with its possibility of production even in a locksmith's shop. And armed with them "Volksturm". Weapons were already missing!
                      1. AK64
                        AK64 April 25 2016 19: 00
                        +2
                        They began to rivet "Stan" in connection with its possibility of production even in a locksmith's shop. Weapons were already missing!


                        You are absolutely right. This is what we are talking about.

                        That is, look: we are here about the fact that "yes MP-40 is much steeper than the Wall." In fact, the fighting qualities are about the same, but Stan is much easier to manufacture. And when the roasted cock pecked, the choice is Sten.

                        And with machine guns the same thing: the MG-34, of course, seems to be like an excellent machine gun (although not indisputably). But ... already in 1941, it became clear that he was too "excellent", and something cheaper would be needed.
                  4. The comment was deleted.
              2. family tree
                family tree April 24 2016 19: 35
                0
                And he was the best. Along the edge, intelligence went with him.
                Current nonche for them, PC and PCM biting
                "Pecheneg" will be harder, so the infantry, 600-ton round of ammunition, it is a full paragraph
                and reconnaissance, if they started shooting, it’s like a failure, and the barrel to melt, while the Izhevsk machine
                And MG, well, the legend is in the armory, DP and DT, magazines to equip, hemorrhoids
                1. AK64
                  AK64 April 24 2016 20: 17
                  +2
                  And he was the best.

                  (1) by what criteria?
                  (2) who are the judges?

                  (You see, there is no "better" absolutely, without criteria)

                  Along the edge, intelligence went with him.

                  Rebel books were re-read, that's what.
                  Why would reconnaissance machine gun in general, if the task is to crawl to the front trench, steal the tongue and return?
                  1. family tree
                    family tree April 24 2016 21: 23
                    +1
                    Quote: AK64
                    by what criteria?

                    By rate of fire and recharge
                    Quote: AK64
                    steal the tongue and come back?

                    DRG, 44-45, with grandfather on May 9, at a meeting of veterans, consider a quote from a lieutenant colonel of a tanker, I was still small, I was 62 years old, but I remember
                    "I didn’t give a damn (other words), these refugees had a machine gun over their heads and to the full, because somewhere ahead, intelligence was dying."
                    In general, they ran for the line, and jumped with parachutes
                    1. AK64
                      AK64 April 24 2016 21: 37
                      +3
                      Rate of fire

                      I should ask what do you mean by rate of fire .... It seems that rate of fire. Well, it doesn’t matter: the rate of fire of Maxim or Vickers was much higher. Because water cooling.


                      and recharge

                      I wonder what you mean? Overcharging what? Batteries?

                      DRG, 44-45, with grandfather on May 9, at a meeting of veterans, consider a quote from a lieutenant colonel of a tanker, I was still small, I was 62 years old, but I remember
                      "I didn’t give a damn (other words), these refugees had a machine gun over their heads and to the full, because somewhere ahead, intelligence was dying."
                      In general, they ran for the line, and jumped with parachutes

                      Re-read books ....
                      As for the veterans ... Anything can happen: a certain Persian convinced me that he knew a veteran who cut a half-platoon. Saber. In one battle - and in the first in his life (he is also the last).

                      I, of course, doubted - for what I was credited with the enemies of the people
                      1. family tree
                        family tree April 25 2016 21: 33
                        +1
                        The number of bullets per minute. 600 and 1200. At the expense of cooling, a spare barrel and asbestos gloves are included, not for reconnaissance, of course.
                        Discs from DP ammunition to equip, 47, and how many of these pancakes with you, one equipped, weighs almost three kilos, consider one and a half weight on a disk, the rest on cartridges. Or a tape for 250 rounds? And where are the DPs and MGs still used, and MG-3s of the Bundeswehr are essentially the same 42nd with a slightly lower rate of fire. And, let’s without a trawl, about books of checkers and horses, otherwise I’ll write down and wave my hand at the trolls hi
                      2. AK64
                        AK64 April 26 2016 11: 05
                        0
                        The number of bullets per minute. 600 and 1200.

                        This is called the rate of fire.
                        And the "rate of fire" is how much you can actually provide, taking into account the heating of the barrel, changing magazines and the need to aim.

                        So such a high rate of fire - 1200 - he just DECREASED rate of fire, but did not increase.
                        So, according to this criterion, this machine gun was not "the best" in any way.

                        At the expense of cooling, a spare barrel and asbestos gloves in the kit,

                        The trunk of MG changed of course easily.
                        However, I note that Bren (Czech ZB-26 in girlhood) easily changed.
                        But now add to the weight of the machine gun the weight of THREE infestation trunks and the weight of asbestos mittens.

                        Well, you can forget about the mittens, God be with them, with mittens. But do not add three trunks to add.

                        not for intelligence of course.

                        Just forget about this "intelligence": I have already said: the task of intelligence is to crawl, steal the tongue and return. What "machine gun"?
                        The author of this "reconnaissance machine gun" is the writer VV Smirnov, who invented it in the book "The Troubled Veresen Month".

                        Discs from DP ammunition to equip, 47, and how many of these pancakes with you, one equipped, weighs almost three kilos, consider one and a half weight on a disk, the rest on cartridges.

                        So after all, nobody considers a good machine gun to be a good machine gun.

                        Or a tape for 250 rounds?

                        But there were 50 rounds in the ribbon compartment. Well, in defense it was possible and 250, but the weight of the disks in defense was also not very worrying.

                        And where is the DP

                        Used until now. Already mentioned by colleagues.

                        and MG is still used, and MG-3 in the Bundeswehr, essentially the same 42nd with a slightly lower rate of fire.

                        Germans are worn with an obsolete machine gun, that's all.

                        And, let’s without a trawl, about books of checkers and horses, otherwise I’ll write down and wave my hand at the trolls

                        I won’t sleep nights, I’ll worry
                  2. Ruslan67
                    Ruslan67 April 24 2016 21: 45
                    +2
                    Quote: perepilka
                    In general, they ran for the line, and jumped with parachutes

                    From Sanka big greetings to the whole gang drinks Flies home tomorrow crying sorry no Vatnik sad I would hang myself ..... after learning how I and I are drinking beer in St. Petersburg good drinks
                    1. family tree
                      family tree April 25 2016 20: 27
                      +1
                      In the course of the meeting was a success wassat Well, cho, I’ll be happy for you, well, I’ll envy quietly. Beer and Courvoisier, this mixture is probably stronger than Goth’s tank group laughing
                2. Starina_hank
                  Starina_hank April 25 2016 13: 25
                  +1
                  The book is called "Anxious Veresen Month", almost literally: "The Germans invented a good machine gun, both the handbrake and the machine tool. Therefore Dubov always took MG with him, and there were always enough cartridges for him behind the front line." The machine gun was used to cover the group's retreat, an example is given in the book. According to the stories of the military commander, the DP had a very strong recoil, they had to pull the machine gun to the shoulder with a belt.
                3. Starina_hank
                  Starina_hank April 25 2016 13: 25
                  +1
                  The book is called "Anxious Veresen Month", almost literally: "The Germans invented a good machine gun, both the handbrake and the machine tool. Therefore Dubov always took MG with him, and there were always enough cartridges for him behind the front line." The machine gun was used to cover the group's retreat, an example is given in the book. According to the stories of the military commander, the DP had a very strong recoil, they had to pull the machine gun to the shoulder with a belt.
        2. yehat
          yehat April 25 2016 11: 11
          +3
          Ballistics of Diagter in general was sufficient.
          not super, but quite on the level.
      2. The comment was deleted.
    5. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov April 23 2016 09: 28
      +16
      Quote: Lex.
      Well, yes, and the Germans didn’t even have mp-40 rifles

      MP 40 was mainly in the military of the SS, most of the Wehrmacht at the beginning of the warriors was armed with rifles.
      1. Lex.
        Lex. April 23 2016 11: 02
        +11
        On average, in 1941, only one MP 40 relied on the infantry squad (for the commander), the infantry company included 16 submachine guns and 132 Mauser Kar.98k carbines. Later, due to the mass production of PP, their number in the Wehrmacht increased, but not faster than in the Red Army, in which at that time there were already whole machine-gun companies, fully armed with automatic weapons
        1. Roll of wallpaper
          Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 12: 03
          -9
          Quote: Lex.
          in which by that time there were already whole machine-gun companies, fully armed with automatic weapons

          Again. PP is an ersatz weapon for the army. With a very limited area of ​​application. "Companies of submachine gunners" is not a reason for joy. Until such a "company of machine gunners" gets at least 200 meters from the Germans, little will remain of it.
          Because the Germans will start to hit her somewhere beyond 600 m from MG with optics, 450 m from MG without optics and 400 m from Mausers.
          1. kashtak
            kashtak April 23 2016 20: 09
            +3
            Quote: Wallpaper Roll
            Again. PP is an ersatz weapon for the army. With a very limited scope

            Well, yes, and somewhere the software was used somewhere to disperse the demonstration. am PP at a distance of up to 200m if it was inferior to a light machine gun in terms of fire density, it is not much.
            Quote: Wallpaper Roll
            Because the Germans will start to hit her somewhere beyond 600 m from MG with optics, 450 m from MG without optics and 400 m from Mausers

            at 400m in attack no one fires even a rifle. or am I wrong? in defense, the Fritzes themselves will get. in general, a platoon of machine gunners in a company greatly increased fire capabilities. I judge by the fact that in 1941 PPs were distributed directly to T-bills.
            1. Roll of wallpaper
              Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 21: 38
              +1
              Quote: kashtak
              PP at a distance of up to 200m if it was inferior to a light machine gun in terms of fire density, it is not much.

              Let's clarify, a normal light machine gun (LMG) gives a fire density of 100-150 rounds per minute. PP is essentially SMG, so its fire density is 80-100 rounds per minute.
              But where during the Second World War (i.e. on the Eastern Front of Germany) did you see a normal light machine gun (LMG)? The USSR used an automatic rifle DP-27 (70-80 rounds per minute). Germany used shortened bipod machine guns. At the same time, MG42 without changing trunks gave 80-100 rounds per minute, like a regular SMG. And MG34 was still like a light machine gun (LMG), he gave 100-120 rounds per minute without changing the barrel. But in reality, he wasn’t, he just looked like it in some places.

              At the same time, at a distance of 200 m, PPs were radically inferior to all these products in the efficiency of fire. Typically, normal PP in terms of fire efficiency was compared with a handbrake at a distance of 100 m. MP40 and PPSh are not affected, they were compared with a handbrake in terms of efficiency at 60 and 35 m, respectively.
              Quote: kashtak
              at 400m in attack no one fires even a rifle. or am I wrong?

              Why? Attack is a complex chain of movements and actions. And what is shown in the movie, a non-stop run forward with a cry of Hur, is more like suicide. Although it could apparently be so with the PP, it was necessary to somehow overcome these 200-250 m.
              Quote: kashtak
              I judge by the fact that in 1941 PP were distributed directly to T-bills

              This is not an indicator. This is the USSR, it was so accepted.
            2. yehat
              yehat April 25 2016 14: 28
              0
              400 meters shoot from a rifle. when I was younger and shorter, I could shoot from 500-700m, but accuracy? at such a distance single density of fire is almost zero
              even with optics getting into it, especially a moving target, is very problematic
              shooting almost for luck. And in the Wehrmacht, not everyone was with good eyesight and the cartridges of the soldiers were not drawers, so they really started shooting from about 200-250m.
        2. The comment was deleted.
      2. shasherin.pavel
        shasherin.pavel April 24 2016 11: 03
        +8
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        most of the Wehrmacht to end warriors was armed with rifles.
        The Wehrmacht rifle has always remained the main weapon. The automation of the Wehrmacht legends of the Khrushchev era, just look carefully at the captured photos.
        1. fennekRUS
          fennekRUS April 24 2016 16: 54
          +1
          Most "historians" judge by films "about the war" By the way, the author forgot a considerable saturation with Czech weapons and self-loading. Walter
          1. yehat
            yehat April 25 2016 16: 56
            0
            zbrovitsa or harness or harness in general, the machine gun was active in the Wehrmacht.
      3. yehat
        yehat April 25 2016 12: 46
        0
        MP40 was mainly among those who entered the battle last - commanders, assistant machine gunners, police, cooks, signalmen, tank crews, etc. the infantry was based on long-range weapons - rifles and machine guns.
    6. Forest
      Forest April 23 2016 11: 00
      +16
      The Germans had quite a few PP. It’s in the films and pink dreams of the Germans that they’re the only machine gunners.
      1. jjj
        jjj April 23 2016 15: 40
        +9
        The Germans only by the end of the war understood the power of individual automatic weapons and invented the Schmeiser with an intermediate cartridge. But they did not have subunits of submachine gunners, as was the practice in the Red Army. And the MP were originally intended to arm the tankers (cocking the bolt on the left side). Fighting at close range, city battles showed the superiority of the PPSh.
        He held the PCA in his hands. This is a real club of the people's war. Heavy weapon. Degtyarev light machine gun is also heavy. In addition, he has a shutter handle that goes from the bottom of the receiver. Therefore, the left hand of the arrow should be on the protrusion of the butt or bipod. Otherwise, the fingers will beat off the shutter at a time. By the way, in the photo above, our machine gunner is holding his left hand incorrectly. There is a recess under the machine gun handle. In a combat situation, a stick was inserted there. And it turned out that the machine gun, as it were, was fixed after shooting in some area. At night, if the enemy was making his way through this section, it was enough to simply pull the trigger. The queue got where it was necessary.
        At the end of the seventies of the last century, a meeting between the Chekists-war veterans and the military personnel of the Committee’s military units was held at the shooting range of the Annunciation border detachment. Veterans fired from modern weapons at that time, and young people fired from weapons of the Great Patriotic War. The old people even burst into tears of the ease with which they hit the targets. They said that with such weapons the Germans would not have been allowed. But our Marxists practically pounded on milk. Only towards the end, they put down targets
        1. shasherin.pavel
          shasherin.pavel April 24 2016 11: 13
          +4
          May 9 was applied to all automatic machines, MP-40 is a toy, and PPSh was not so struck by weight. I was aiming from the PTRD while standing, nothing special, of course I didn’t shoot about the recoil, I won’t say, you can aim at the standing. http://topwar.ru/uploads/images/2016/204/iijt335.jpg
          1. Stas57
            April 24 2016 12: 38
            +2
            I was aiming from the PTRD while standing, nothing special, of course I didn’t shoot about the recoil, I won’t say, you can aim at the standing.
            the returns are very strong.
            From problems - jamming of the sleeve.
        2. yehat
          yehat April 25 2016 16: 54
          0
          the Germans understood the power of automatic weapons back in the war of the Angles with the Boers before the WWII, but it’s one thing to understand - to dispose of another. The result of understanding was the stamping of machine guns Mg34, and then MG42
          They treated the submachine guns just soberly - while they were unsuccessful, they used little. But there was definitely no underestimation, otherwise in the 30s the police would not have received several thousand PPs.
    7. sibiryouk
      sibiryouk April 23 2016 11: 10
      +2
      According to the pre-war staff of the German infantry division, there were approximately 1 infantry regiment per 20 l / s - that is, 2-3 subunits of the ONE submachine gun.
    8. DMB_95
      DMB_95 April 23 2016 14: 07
      +6
      Quote: Lex.
      Well, yes, and the Germans didn’t even have mp-40 rifles

      This is in the movie all the Germans from the MP-40 spar from the hip. In reality, the German infantry was primarily armed with rifles and carbines.
    9. yehat
      yehat April 25 2016 11: 09
      +2
      mp-40 was expensive, quite rare at the beginning of the war and was used at close range
      in positional firefight was almost useless.
      the Germans correctly reasoned that it would be better to make a few more MG-34 machine guns than to massively arm the mp-40. Partially, the problem was solved by barrel grenades on the guns.
      Then, the Germans appeared trophy SVT, PPSh, MG-42 twice cheaper than mg34, manual modifications MG-42, Stg-44, automatic sniper Sniper Fallschirmjägergewehr 42.
      and I would say that the Germans solved the problem of firepower of the infantry division by the year 44 best of all.
    10. goose
      goose April 25 2016 11: 39
      0
      Quote: Lex.
      Well, yes, and the Germans didn’t even have mp-40 rifles

      Namely, the cost and value of the Mauser in the Wehrmacht always stood above the MP-40, which was considered more as a police weapon or, in extreme cases, for landing, reconnaissance and tank crews. Like in our army, Mosin carbine, and then PPS.
  2. sub307
    sub307 April 23 2016 11: 18
    +4
    WYCCTPUJIA
    "I have a question. Why did the author assume that our department is armed with SVT, and not with" three lines "?"
    The author is simply "theorizing" the situation. In practice, there are a great many options that defy theoretical analysis. As an example - two extreme photographs.
    1. Stas57
      April 23 2016 11: 34
      +4
      Quote: sub307
      "I have a question. Why did the author assume that our department is armed with SVT, and not with" three lines "?"
      The author is simply "theorizing" the situation. In practice, there are a great many options that defy theoretical analysis. As an example - two extreme photographs.

      because according to pre-war plans in 1941, it was supposed to release 1,8 mln SVT, released by 1,5mln
      1,5 million rifles in the army is a sufficiently large figure to be considered its statistical error (I recall that in the joint venture in the state of 984 units and in the division of 3307 units)
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. kashtak
      kashtak April 23 2016 19: 50
      +2
      Quote: sub307
      The author is simply "theorizing" the situation

      sorry, but still easier. the author simply mixed up the attitude to the technique (hardware) and those who use this technique and how, respectively, pulls him to the desired result. there can be no two opinions regarding fascism. but it’s more difficult with iron. low practical rate of fire DP-27, bulky shops is not a complete list of shortcomings. No wonder the DP-27 was upgraded twice. DPM and RP-46, respectively. MG-34 had its drawbacks, especially the complexity and low adaptability. MG-42 also did not appear from scratch. and what is typical after the war did not return to MG-34.
  3. The comment was deleted.
  4. Nikoha.2010
    Nikoha.2010 April 23 2016 13: 07
    +2
    Quote: WYCCTPUJIA
    I have a question. Why the author took into account ....

    Where is the author? Article +!
    1. Stas57
      April 23 2016 13: 10
      +2
      Quote: Nikoha.2010
      Where is the author? Article +!

      And what? hi
      1. svp67
        svp67 April 23 2016 15: 54
        +13
        Quote: Stas57
        And what?

        Nothing...
        And so a small addition to the article ...

        1. shasherin.pavel
          shasherin.pavel April 24 2016 11: 24
          +1
          It’s a pity that they didn’t show the barrel replacement ... and didn’t make it out so that the number of parts could be compared.
  5. shasherin.pavel
    shasherin.pavel April 24 2016 10: 33
    +4
    Actually, there is a photograph "Reconnaissance group. North-Western Front. 1941" Reconnaissance group is not a rifle squad, while ... half of the group with bayonets, half do not have them, neither on a belt nor on a rifle. Here, in general, it is clear ... reconnaissance bayonet-knife with its length is not from the hand, here the Finn is needed. We must agree with bistrov below that by 1941 the army was dominated by AVS-36 and SVT-38 and SVT-40. The author could also mention the reason for replacing the MG-34 with the 42nd. He was capricious and was afraid of the dust of the 34th. The cost price of "mashinengevangen" has the same effect, because behind the cost price (not to be confused with the cost) there is also the time-hours for the production of the machine gun, and the number of parts behind it. The Wehrmacht lacked machine guns, and there were even schools for the development of DP-27 machine guns in the Wehrmacht.
    1. Basarev
      Basarev April 24 2016 12: 09
      +1
      And in 44, Soviet engineers eliminated the backlog in tape machine guns, creating a RPD - the world's first machine gun under an intermediate cartridge. An analogue of the now fashionable Minimi.
      1. AK64
        AK64 April 24 2016 12: 30
        +3
        And in 44, Soviet engineers eliminated the backlog in tape machine guns, creating a RPD - the world's first machine gun under an intermediate cartridge. An analogue of the now fashionable Minimi.

        But was this the only reason?
        So why was he "liquidated"?

        Well and in brackets:
        (1) tape power for a light machine gun - but WHY? The tape suggests the possibility of continuous firing, which is simply excessive for a light machine gun. And with a light trunk and technically impossible. On the other hand, store food is much easier to pile technically.
        (2) Your will, but to make a machine gun on a lightweight cartridge .... This is somehow strange. It was a machine gun that should have been transferred to a lightweight throne last.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA April 25 2016 13: 12
          0
          Quote: AK64
          (1) tape power for a light machine gun - but WHY? The tape suggests the possibility of continuous firing, which is simply excessive for a light machine gun. And with a light trunk and technically impossible. On the other hand, store food is much easier to pile technically.

          How much do 250 rounds weigh in a box tape? And how much is the same quantity in individual stores?
          For the WWII infantry, the mass of ammunition is extremely critical. Because the department does not have a car or an armored personnel carrier, into which it is possible to unload part of the ammunition.

          At one time, the Taubin grenade launcher also ruined the weight of the BC (stores) - in this parameter, the 50-mm mortar was much better.
          1. AK64
            AK64 April 25 2016 13: 34
            0
            How much do 250 rounds weigh in a box tape? And how much is the same quantity in individual stores?

            How much? Well, let's compare - only with numbers.

            Just consider that for handbrake tapes and boxes were 50 (+ \ - 10 does not change). And let's add a slightly more complex and heavier tape receiver.

            In general, in the conditions of WWII, tape power for the machine gun compartment is an unnecessary luxury (consider IMHO, if you like)


            At one time, the Taubin grenade launcher also ruined the weight of the BC (stores) - in this parameter, the 50-mm mortar was much better.

            Let's not be here about the grenade launcher, OK?
            You want to talk about a grenade launcher - so open another topic, write - and we'll talk.
            1. yehat
              yehat April 25 2016 14: 40
              0
              machine gun belt - a luxury ???
              Firstly, the departments are very different. The more settled the less important the weight.
              From the age of 43, the Germans mainly defended themselves and could afford to equip the infantry squads at times very difficult, because all the same during the defense either they would all shoot or die, and there were no plans to run with 50 kg behind him.
              1. AK64
                AK64 April 25 2016 15: 04
                0
                machine gun belt - a luxury ???

                Not "tape" but "tape feed". Yes, luxury

                Firstly, the departments are very different. The more settled the less important the weight. From the age of 43, the Germans mainly defended themselves and could afford to equip the infantry squads at times very difficult, because all the same during the defense either they would all shoot or die, and there were no plans to run with 50 kg behind him.

                A new word in military theory: "offensive" and "defensive" squads ....
              2. The comment was deleted.
            2. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA April 25 2016 17: 14
              0
              Quote: AK64
              How much? Well, let's compare - only with numbers.

              Please.
              The weight of the equipped disk DP-27 for 47 rounds is 2,7 kg.
              The weight of the box with a ribbon for 200 rounds (RP-46) is 8,33 kg.
              In total, switching to tape power saves almost 2,5 kg.
              1. AK64
                AK64 April 25 2016 17: 41
                0
                The weight of the equipped disk DP-27 for 47 rounds is 2,7 kg.
                The weight of the box with a ribbon for 200 rounds (RP-46) is 8,33 kg.
                In total, switching to tape power saves almost 2,5 kg.

                You have calculated very specifically and very incorrectly.

                Firstly, it is necessary to consider not a box of 200 rounds, but 4x50 rounds. (Because the box of 200 rounds for the machine gun detachment a little bit.) And then there will be a little different.
                And secondly, the DP disk is a very bad example. Or, conversely, a good example of a bad store. Take better stores for the PKK or stores for Bren.

                That is, you took extreme examples for calculations, which is incorrect.
                1. Alexey RA
                  Alexey RA April 25 2016 18: 13
                  0
                  Quote: AK64
                  That is, you took extreme examples for calculations, which is incorrect.

                  I took an absolutely correct example for calculations: a tape DP (AKA RP-46) versus a disk DP (DPM) (if it were not for the adoption of an intermediate cartridge and RPD, then RP-46 would have every chance to replace it with DP-27 / DPM )
                  It is necessary to compare the comparable. Not extreme examples: the lightest of disk / magazine guns versus the heaviest tape.
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                  2. AK64
                    AK64 April 25 2016 18: 24
                    0
                    I took an absolutely correct example for calculations: a tape DP (AKA RP-46) versus a disk DP (DPM) (if it were not for the adoption of an intermediate cartridge and RPD, then RP-46 would have every chance to replace it with DP-27 / DPM )
                    It is necessary to compare the comparable. Not extreme examples: the lightest of disk / magazine guns versus the heaviest tape.


                    Technology must be the same. Take flights from one time and under one cartridge. For example, RPD and PKK. Or a 50-cartridge tape with a box for MG and stores of the Czech ST (Bren).

                    And to compare a deliberately bad store, and even with a backwardness of 20 years and war, is incorrect.

                    However, you can remain in your conviction. Your examples only convinced me of the correctness of MY conviction that the belt feed for the machine gun compartment is redundant. Not "bad" or "good", namely excessively
              2. The comment was deleted.
          2. yehat
            yehat April 25 2016 14: 35
            0
            for the WWII infantry, yes, but do not forget that the Germans fought an offensive battle mainly with motorized units (galenvagens, covered trucks, armored personnel carriers, artillery tractors, motorcycles, tanks, horses - all this carried "heavy" weapons), the Americans, by the way, also , and in defense, weight is not so important.
            How many films were shown, where 1 armored personnel carrier rides in front of the infantry chain and for all it is watered from a machine gun. In addition, from 42-43, the infantry squadron was often grouped not only around the machine gun, but also around the dowry stug-III, which also could carry.
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. AK64
              AK64 April 25 2016 15: 11
              0
              for WWII infantry, yes, but do not forget that the Germans fought an offensive battle mainly in motorized units

              The fact did not have a place.

              Americans, by the way, too,

              The Americans, "by the way," are much richer, and they simply did not have the classical infantry: the amers had a fully motorized army.

              and in defense, weight is not so important.

              the existence of "defense squads" and "offensive squads" is certainly interesting, but science has not yet proven the existence of such. such is the gap.

              How many films were shown, where 1 armored personnel carrier rides in front of the infantry chain and for all it is watered from a machine gun.

              Kina, of course it’s yes .... How will Anka plan from the pelemete, how will he insure ... Well, wux and teak...

              In addition, from 42-43, the infantry squadron was often grouped not only around the machine gun, but also around the dowry stug-III, which also could carry.

              And again, a new word in military theory ... Have you given battleships to the branches? It’s as if they were loafing somehow: battleships had to be given, then they would have definitely won
              1. yehat
                yehat April 25 2016 16: 59
                +1
                do not bring nonsense, do not distort words, do not invent terms for me that I did not say. If stuffed pipes with shrapnel were used in defense in St. Petersburg, this does not mean that defense units were invented there.
                it means the nature of the fighting. but you are inventing with brute force

                As for the facts, I do not want to crucify before the troll. All the same, he does not care. Read the literature, pick out the facts yourself.
            3. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA April 25 2016 17: 38
              +1
              Quote: yehat
              for WWII infantry, yes, but do not forget that the Germans fought an offensive battle mainly in motorized units

              Come on. The same German 11 A calmly advancing and seizing bridgeheads with infantry units.
              Yes, and 5 And Potapov was squeezed out to the Dnieper precisely by infantry formations (who managed to regularly go to our rear crossings faster than our retreating rifle units).
              Quote: yehat
              How many films were shown, where 1 armored personnel carrier rides in front of the infantry chain and for all it is watered from a machine gun.

              And behind the armored personnel carrier - drunk SS men in a parade with rolled up sleeves, watering from a belly of Schmeissers. laughing
            4. Stas57
              April 25 2016 17: 49
              0
              Quote: yehat
              for the WWII infantry, yes, but do not forget that the Germans fought offensive battles mainly with motorized units (galenvagens, covered trucks, armored personnel carriers, artillery tractors, motorcycles, tanks, horses - all this carried "heavy" weapons),

              you look at them, the number of motive divisions compared with the infantry and you can see who was attacking where and where.
  6. Litsvin
    Litsvin April 24 2016 23: 27
    +1
    The article is poorly worked out, more on emotions than on "cold technical and operational facts". Comparing our "cleaver" or "woodpecker" (as our (yes, ours!) Infantrymen called "DS-27" as a joke) with "Machingever-34" is the same as comparing "Mercedes" Stirlitz with "GAZ" -M1 ". "MG-34" was at the time of creation a masterpiece of engineering thought in the field of world machine gun construction and the world's first "single" (ie multipurpose machine gun), which was developed for use in the infantry, tank and motorized troops, aviation, navy, incl. underwater. The characteristics presented not by the author in the article are not entirely accurate (the weight of the equipped manual machine gun (on the bipod), depending on the type of power supply, ranged from 12,5 to 16 kg; for the ground version, 3 types of machines were developed - infantry-easel, anti-aircraft, The machine gun could (and very often did) be operated with an optical sight, which, together with the ability to conduct single fire, greatly increased its already deadly efficiency.The rate of fire ranged from 900 to 1150 rounds per minute and depended on the type of bolt installed - “light” or “heavy.” Replaceable barrels, changed by a prepared crew in 12 seconds, is generally the smartest solution. The 7,92 calib bullet was heavier than our 7,62 and had higher lethal properties). The only drawback of the machine gun was its production - for the manufacture of numerous milled parts, 3 times more metal was required - i.e. the shutter weighed three times less than the blank for it. This disadvantage was resolved during the creation of his "brother" - "MG-42", the material consumption of which was reduced by 2 times, the number of man-hours for production - by 1,8 times.
    My grandfather, who fought in the infantry, finished the war in Konigsberg with the captured MG-42, fought with it for about a year. When my grandfather talked about his military trophy "comrade", he always said the phrase "Where there is a" tar "to a" German "(meaning MG-42). I write a frame for 100 meters."

    About SVT in our department is generally nonsense. Of course, the SVT received a limited number of combat units, but the complexity of caring for the rifle made it unsuitable for mass infantry weapons. Gradually, back in 1940, these rifles, which fell into the infantry, were withdrawn from circulation and handed over to warehouses, instead of them simple and understandable Mosinks were issued to the soldiers. The share of "SVT" in combat units in June 1941 was scanty. According to the recollections of one unfinished "Fritz" who survived the war, they found an unknown rifle in the Russians, which shoots without distorting the bolt. They handed the rifle to the headquarters. Their squad managed to capture the next rifle only a month later (it was such a rarity on the battlefield).

    In general, the article compares "spherical" with "cold". In my writing, I proceeded not from emotions like "ours is the best and most iron", but from the truth of life and facts. But, at the same time, our "woodpecker", yielding to the "MG-34" in combat characteristics, nevertheless performed its mission regularly - the German clan as best he could - this is also a fact.
    1. yehat
      yehat April 25 2016 12: 04
      -2
      AND AGREE AND NO. the author’s message to compare firepower from rate of fire is sheer stupidity. Such a comparison is only appropriate for assault groups, but there are many other things to consider - the presence of flamethrowers, for example.
      the accuracy of the battle at distances above 150m, Dyagterev and mg34 were very different, but this is understandable, because mg34 is actually an easel machine gun, its accuracy fell strongly on bipods, and Dyagterev was purely manual. Different types of weapons. Another thing is that this advantage against the experienced infantry was poorly applicable, while under Rzhev mg34 proved to be very good just because of no experience of the advancing infantry.
      Another advantage of mg34 was the density of fire - there was no possibility at all to pop out under fire.
      As for the vulnerability of the German tactics of separation, the problem was not the only machine gun, but the fact that the Germans did not like to dig in and the machine gun often stood in a completely open place. Yes, and our masked better, in these two components the Germans were much inferior to the Red Army infantry, but this is not a machine gun problem.
      I recall that the German Severloch is the record holder for those killed in 1 battle from small arms. On the day of the battle of the Allied landings in France, he killed about 34 people from the mg10000 machine gun. and another 15000 injured.
      By the way, about the use of mg34 in aviation - it was almost inapplicable there due to insufficient rate of fire, but Mg-42 turned out to be very useful, but it was worse for infantry due to excessive rate of fire.
      1. Svidetel 45
        Svidetel 45 April 25 2016 22: 31
        +2
        I doubt very much the reliability of these figures, if on average at least five shots per each hit, then this is 125 thousand shots per battle! In total, one machine gunner put in two battles TWO divisions! And what did the rest of the Wehrmacht soldiers do, spat on the ceiling of their dugouts?
    2. Stas57
      April 25 2016 12: 16
      +2
      The article is poorly worked out, more on emotions than on "cold technical and operational facts". Comparing our "cleaver" or "woodpecker" (as our (yes, ours!) Infantrymen called "DS-27" as a joke) with "Machingever-34" is the same as comparing "Mercedes" Stirlitz with "GAZ" -M1 ".

      the article does not compare machine guns, the article compares the infantry squads, where the shortcomings of the AP were compensated by SVT.
      but apparently you are a German?

      About SVT in our department is generally nonsense. Of course, the SVT received a limited number of combat units, but the complexity of caring for the rifle made it unsuitable for the mass armament of infantry.

      I’ll already ask the sixth, are there any numbers?

      SVT "in combat units in June 1941 was scanty

      numbers, charts, reports?
      nothing...
      just to repeat
      Only rifle formations (eleven divisions) and KiUR, which were part of 37 A, totaled 83491 people. Moreover, they were not badly armed. For example, 284 SD had 4719 conventional rifles and carbines, and even 2249 SVT. 147 sd had more 1000 SVT
      1. Basarev
        Basarev April 25 2016 15: 55
        +1
        There was also a DT-29. Also, in a way, a single one. It could be picked out from the tank and used on foot.
  • Seraphimamur
    Seraphimamur April 23 2016 06: 06
    +5
    Article plus. An interesting review article.
  • demiurg
    demiurg April 23 2016 06: 16
    +6
    It would be nice to make a review for the Russian branch and the United States or Germany. With an analysis of the composition, weapons and tactics in the field and in urban conditions.
    1. vietnam7
      vietnam7 April 23 2016 08: 11
      +6
      Most likely this review will be the size of a good book, you will have to take into account the department’s year of operations at 41 and 43-45, the composition of weapons and tactics have changed greatly. Although if such an article comes out I will be glad to read, there are few articles on the development and history of small arms and especially the tactics of troops.
      1. lis-ik
        lis-ik April 24 2016 12: 37
        +2
        If my memory serves me right, then during the USSR, for the first year of the military school (whatever it was), there was an introductory course of tactics, which examined the number and composition of the probable enemy from division to company. As a rule, these were the US and German armies.
  • mamont5
    mamont5 April 23 2016 06: 44
    +6
    Quote: WYCCTPUJIA
    I have a question. Why did the author assume that our department is armed with SVT, and not with "three lines"?

    Apparently, the calculation was made at the beginning of the war (the Germans also took MG-38, not MG-42). Later, of course, the number of SVT decreased, the number of "mosins" increased (due to the simplicity of production and maintenance in battle), but the number of PPSh / PPS in the squad also increased.
    1. svp67
      svp67 April 23 2016 07: 00
      +4
      Quote: mamont5
      but the number of PPSh / PPS in department also increased.

      PPSh and PPS, being submachine guns, solved only the issue of "the last 400 meters", but sharply reduced the ability to conduct combat at long distances.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Roll of wallpaper
        Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 09: 05
        +9
        Quote: svp67
        being submachine guns, they only solved the issue of "the last 400 meters"

        The last 100-200 m.
        1. avt
          avt April 23 2016 09: 46
          +6
          Quote: svp67
          PPSh and PPS, being submachine guns, decided only the issue of "the last 400 meters",

          Quote: Wallpaper Roll
          The last 100-200 m.

          Exactly . The author of course gave a beautiful layout for the departments. However, the calculation with the three fighters serving the MG will be more glorious, and indeed it was than the DP. In general, for a good DP, you need to compare it with the ZB-26, and not with the wagon. And the fact that they later piled up the Pribluda on the DP to shoot from the tape and got the RP-46, also says something, although in fairness the author specified the advantage of the tape. Again, in addition to the rate of fire, what about the time to keep it? And then the DP MG lost not only overheating of the barrel, but also the return spring, which they again undertook to eliminate as early as the 44th on the PDM. So I didn’t understand what the author wanted to prove? What before the war really engaged in arming infantry thoughtfully? Well, yes - a fact, only perhaps in the USSR and USA the rifles were regularly self-loading. Well ?
          . In general, the separation with the SVT and DP-27, in mobile combat, was not inferior to the separation of the Wehrmacht with 98k and MG 34. And when the forces are equal, the skill and training of the personnel comes forward.
          request Even the divisions of the people's militia from Moscow, falling into the hands of an experienced command, unpleasantly surprised the Germans, who decided to break through civilians. I don’t know, in my opinion the author somehow didn’t understand it, and I wasn’t given to understand what I wanted to reveal to the World - Comparison of weapons of infantry squads Well, something like that - described. Compare specific weapons? Well, I definitely didn’t get it.
          1. Roll of wallpaper
            Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 10: 07
            -2
            Quote: avt
            then they piled on the DP to the Pribluda for firing from the tape and got the RP-46, which also says something

            This is a false statement, although it is widely distributed on the Internet. Relative DP-27 was RPD, but not RP.
            1. avt
              avt April 23 2016 10: 37
              +4
              Quote: Wallpaper Roll
              This is a false statement, although it is widely distributed on the Internet. Relative DP-27 was RPD, but not RP.

              wassat Oh how! Like some kind of new gradation invented? And if you look carefully at the materiel? According to the cartridge there, again, the mechanics and time when and what product was produced? You will find a lot of interesting things, well, if the temperature is not measured in GMT
              1. Roll of wallpaper
                Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 13: 32
                +1
                Quote: avt
                Over the cartridge there

                And where is the cartridge? Degtyarev had nothing to do with RP, it was done by other people. Yes, they took the PDM as a basis. But they changed it so much that he only sided with the PDM. There, even the principle of operation is completely different, the trunks are thick (heavy) and quick-change. Suffice it to say that the rate of fire of the RP is three times (!!!) higher than the RP. What is this "DP with tape"? This is a different machine gun. And what it is definitely not suitable for, unlike the DPM, is for arming the squad. In fact, the RP is the first Soviet normal single machine gun.
            2. Nikolaevich I
              Nikolaevich I April 23 2016 17: 06
              +2
              But still! "Relative" DP-27 "officially" is considered RP-46, because. it is developed on the basis of DPM ... the cartridge (7,62 * 54R) also "makes them related". RPD-44 is considered an "independent" development, not related to DP-27, DPM, chambered for (7,62 * 39) .Degtyarev in the design of the RPD-44 used the "motifs" of an experienced belt-fed light machine gun chambered for (7,62 * 25 TT), created by a team of young gunsmiths.
              1. Roll of wallpaper
                Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 17: 41
                -1
                Quote: Nikolaevich I
                RP-27 is officially considered a relative of "DP-46" because it was developed on the basis of DPM

                So RPD is developed on the basis of PDM. Only the tape power from the box and the trunk are inseparable. And under another cartridge, of course. And so, according to the concept and all the same, a light machine gun supporting the squad. Moreover, unlike PDM, it is a machine gun, not an automatic rifle.
                The USSR did not know how to calculate wound ballistics at that time, so they believed that they had straddled a goldfish. When they learned, they burst into tears, and all these weapons chambered for 7,62x39 mm were kicked out of the army with a knee.
                Quote: Nikolaevich I
                Degtyarev in the design of the RPD-44 used the "motives" of an experienced belt-fed light machine gun chambered for (7,62 * 25 TT)

                Well no. This is a reworked and redone PDM. LAD is out of business here.
            3. The comment was deleted.
            4. kashtak
              kashtak April 23 2016 20: 28
              +3
              Quote: Wallpaper Roll
              This is a false statement, although it is widely distributed on the Internet. Relative DP-27 was RPD, but not RP.

              DP-27 was first upgraded to PDM, and then to RP-46. removable device for shooting from a tape is not a mistake but a fact. learn materiel. there is enough information on this subject in the internet.
              1. Roll of wallpaper
                Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 21: 10
                0
                Quote: kashtak
                removable device for shooting from a tape is not a mistake but a fact. learn materiel. there is enough information on this topic in the internet

                I need to learn what I know so to nothing. And it would not hurt you to read first what this is all about.
                For example, Roll of Wallpaper Today, 13:32:
                Yes, they took the PDM as a basis. But they changed it so much that he only sided with the PDM. There, even the principle of operation is completely different, the trunks are thick (heavy) and quick-change. Suffice it to say that the rate of fire of the RP is three times (!!!) higher than the RP. What is this "DP with tape"? This is a different machine gun. And what it is definitely not suitable for, unlike the DPM, is for arming the squad. In fact, the RP is the first Soviet normal single machine gun.

                There is also a screen from NSD RP, study.
                As for the "successor of the PDM", this is undoubtedly the RPD. And by design, and partially constructive.
                PS. Someone taught you cons in those posts where you write to me. Maybe a coincidence, or maybe a "cunning plan". You are no longer surprised at this site.
                1. The comment was deleted.
                2. kashtak
                  kashtak April 23 2016 21: 36
                  +4
                  Quote: Wallpaper Roll
                  I need to learn what I know so to nothing. And it would not hurt you to read first what is at stake

                  RP-46 differed from DP-27 in the thickness of the barrel, the location of the return spring, the shape of the butt and the pistol grip. a removable tape receiver did not exclude the use of "discs". but the RPD is a completely different sample. so dear do not rush to be called an expert. PS I am not writing in response to the cons, but to your notes. We are here to discuss, isn't it?
                  1. Roll of wallpaper
                    Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 21: 51
                    0
                    Quote: kashtak
                    RP-46 differed from DP-27 in barrel thickness

                    And also the barrel is made quick-detachable, like MG, for example. Anyway, this is a machine gun for a completely different purpose, nothing to do with PDM.
                    I already wrote above, this is the first Soviet normal single machine gun.
                    Quote: kashtak
                    but the RPD is a completely different sample.

                    Why is he so "different"? All the same "squad gun", all the same designer. The rate of fire due to the less powerful cartridge has been raised from AR to LMG. But due to the unsuccessful cartridge, it is generally unsuccessful.
                    1. The comment was deleted.
                    2. kashtak
                      kashtak April 23 2016 22: 04
                      +1
                      Quote: Wallpaper Roll
                      nothing to do with PDM.

                      RP-46 structurally did not differ from the DPM machine gun.
                      1. Roll of wallpaper
                        Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 22: 32
                        0
                        Quote: kashtak
                        RP-46 structurally did not differ from the DPM machine gun.

                        How can I explain to you that if you put a tape drive unit instead of a disk, then a single machine gun instead of an automatic rifle will fail?
                        But tell me, if this node is removed and put the disk, then we get a PDM? Or is it not PDM?
                    3. The comment was deleted.
                    4. kashtak
                      kashtak April 23 2016 22: 12
                      +2
                      Quote: Wallpaper Roll
                      I already wrote above, this is the first Soviet normal single machine gun

                      Yes, experience has been gained although the RP-46 is still not a single machine gun. he doesn’t have main meals. drive of the tape receiver from the reload handle.
                      1. Roll of wallpaper
                        Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 22: 34
                        0
                        Quote: kashtak
                        although the RP-46 is still not a single machine gun. he doesn’t have main feed

                        Really? Exactly the same single machine gun as the PC that replaced it later. And exactly the same TTX.
              2. The comment was deleted.
          2. Stas57
            April 23 2016 10: 12
            +11
            The author of course gave a beautiful layout for the departments. However, the calculation with the three fighters serving the MG will be more glorious, and indeed it was than the DP.

            Of course there was, he is the basis of the Wehrmacht infantry division, he is the main goal of the enemy infantry division.
            no machine gun and infantry rush blown away.

            So I didn’t understand that I really wanted to prove that the author

            a comparison of the staff of the Wehrmacht and the Red Army for the initial period.

            What before the war really engaged in arming infantry thoughtfully? Well, yes - a fact, only perhaps in the USSR and USA the rifles were regularly self-loading. Well ?

            Well, I wrote about this - not everyone knows, we have a lot of people walking here

            Even the divisions of the people's militia from Moscow, falling into the hands of an experienced command, unpleasantly surprised the Germans, who decided to break through civilians.

            why is this at all?
            then it is necessary to compare the Volkssturm and the people's militia))

            I don’t know, in my opinion the author somehow didn’t understand it, and I wasn’t given to understand what I wanted to reveal to the World - Comparison of weapons of infantry squads? Well, something like that - described. Compare specific weapons? Well, I definitely didn’t get it

            the author is patient, the author will repeat, the author himself understood
            the author does not compare the machine gun in a space vacuum, not in the hands of the lone hero-Remba, but the machine gun in his natural environment - in battle, and his surroundings-separation.
            and he, the fight, can be different - if the German infantry squad, dusting with boots on the roads in the summer of 41, receives an order to take that farmyard away, and there will be a Soviet infantry squad, then they will have equal chances.
            And they will be equal due to the fact that the SVT compensates for the weakness of the DP and even gives advantages. And vice versa the same, the Soviet branch has every chance of suppressing the German defenses due to the density of fire of the SVT and DP.
            The Germans write that "all Russians are armed with light machine guns"
            There is no cardinal difference in their firepower.
            that's all.
            1. avt
              avt April 23 2016 10: 32
              +4
              Quote: Stas57
              the author is patient, the author will repeat, the author himself understood

              Ok, I'm sold. Change article title with
              MG 34 vs DP-27 infantry unit
              On ,, Armament of the infantry squad of the Red Army vs the infantry squad of the Wehrmacht "
              Quote: Stas57
              that's all.

              Then pure machine gun comparison will not wedge ..... at least me. laughing
              1. Stas57
                April 23 2016 10: 54
                +6
                Quote: avt
                Ok, I'm sold.

                you need to make people think outside the box "ok! google! Tiger = the best tank against IS + rate of fire + mm of armor" or "Katyusha weapon of victory burned hectares of aashists to the ground"
                hi
          3. Pilat2009
            Pilat2009 April 23 2016 12: 52
            +2
            Quote: avt
            What before the war really engaged in arming infantry thoughtfully?

            Well, at least the tests and comparisons of different samples were carried out. And then, it is impossible to make the perfect machine gun for everyone with its own advantages and disadvantages. Why didn’t they invent Kalash in 39? Would it be the best submachine gun of the Second World War
            1. Roll of wallpaper
              Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 13: 12
              -2
              Quote: Pilat2009
              Why Kalash was not invented in '39?

              Why was he needed? Theoretically, SVT was better than him. Another thing, did not work as it should.
              1. Nikolaevich I
                Nikolaevich I April 23 2016 17: 27
                +4
                Quote: Wallpaper Roll
                Why was he needed? Theoretically, SVT was better than him. Another thing, did not work as it should.

                Yes, he was needed! In those years, many "thought" about the cartridge, which later received the name "intermediate"; and about the weapon for this cartridge! The inertia of the military, the lack of a clear idea of ​​the nature of the "future" war, the accumulated stocks of "old" cartridges, economic difficulties, finally ... The "predecessor" of the "Kalash" is the Fedorov assault rifle of 6,5 mm caliber. Compare SVT with AK-47 -Compare your penis with a finger or two "class" weapons! By the way, SVT-40 "worked" well! Otherwise, the Germans would not "hunt" for "Sveta"! The problem was in the low technical culture of "yesterday's collective farmers" ... In the Navy, where a relatively high technical level was traditionally maintained, SVT-40s were very popular.
                1. Roll of wallpaper
                  Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 18: 16
                  -5
                  Quote: Nikolaevich I
                  Yes, he was needed!

                  Yes? Why doesn't anyone need him now? And why was it needed only in Germany for 2,5 years and in the USSR for a quarter of a century? And never again to anyone?
                  Quote: Nikolaevich I
                  The "predecessor" of "Kalash" is a 6,5-mm Fedorov assault rifle.

                  This is you bent. This hoopoe of the heirs did not have. The predecessor of Kalash is StG44. Conceptually, this is it. The design is a little different.
                  Quote: Nikolaevich I
                  Compare SVT with AK-47 - compare penis with finger or two "class" of weapons!

                  And let's try.
                  SVT is a (distracting from reliability) self-loading army (i.e. full) rifle. Those. ideal grassroots army weapons until the 60s of the last century. The main infantry weapon of those years.
                  AKM is an assault (i.e., weakened) self-loading rifle with a built-in submachine gun function. As if 2 in the 1st.
                  Moreover, it is more correct to compare with AKM not SVT, but AVT. AVT / SVT with single fire is effective at 400 m, AKM, also with single fire, at 300 m. Automatic fire with AKM is effective at 100 m, AVT at 50 m. I do not see any advantages of AKM at close range. Unless the AKM worked fine, but the SVT did not. But the "intermediate cartridge 7,62x39 mm" is out of the question here.
                  But the AK-74, this is another weapon, it really is. But he appeared only in the mid-70s.
                  Quote: Nikolaevich I
                  Otherwise, the Germans would not have "hunted" for "Sveta"!

                  The Germans "hunted" for everything. Including three lines and more. With weapons they were very bad. For example, the ancient three-line arr. 1891 (not 91/30) they called Gewehr 252.
                  Quote: Nikolaevich I
                  The problem was in the low technical culture of "yesterday's collective farmers"

                  These are the tales of grandmother Arina. The problem was in the SVT automation mechanism. Its construction suggests thoughts of sabotage, although, of course, this was not so. Just like that.
                  Quote: Nikolaevich I
                  In the Navy, where a relatively high technical level was traditionally maintained, the SVT-40s were very popular.

                  The Navy was fired once in the afternoon. From this winding they often did not need to change. And in the rifle units (and the Germans), the SVT did not live for a long time. They were used mainly not according to instructions, but so that it was more convenient to fight.
                  1. Nikolaevich I
                    Nikolaevich I April 24 2016 02: 29
                    +4
                    Having looked through your "comments", I see that you "all the time" confuse "God's gift with scrambled eggs." ...
                2. AK64
                  AK64 April 26 2016 11: 30
                  0
                  Yes, he was needed!

                  Nah

                  In those years, many "thought" about the patron, which later received the name "intermediate";

                  But who WAS he needed something? Not from gunsmiths (for whom weapons under such a cartridge are simpler), but from the military?
                  An intermediate cartridge could occur only when the horse ceased to be a target. And not before.

                  and over weapons under this cartridge!

                  That's right - sculpting a weapon under a weakened cartridge is easier. But to fight with such a cartridge is more difficult. But the weapon is not to be, but to fight.

                  The inertia of the military, the lack of a clear understanding of the nature of the "future" war, the accumulated stocks of "old" cartridges, economic difficulties, finally ...

                  Yes, yes, well, just all-all fools.
                  Or maybe it’s just YOU who don’t know something, huh?
                  Hint: horses as a goal. Just an example, huh?
                  Compare SVT with AK-47 - compare penis with finger or two "class" of weapons!

                  And indeed: SVT is a masterpiece!
                  And the more I hear disputes around SVT, the more I am convinced of this opinion. Masterpiece weapon.


                  By the way, SVT-40 "worked" well! Otherwise the Germans would not "hunt" for "Sveta"! The problem was in the low technical culture of the "yesterday's collective farmers" ... In the Navy, where a relatively high technical level was traditionally maintained, SVT-40s were very popular.

                  Hehe ...
                  Especially for hard-cock'a and its other incornations: CBT is still very popular among hunters in the USA and Canada.
                  And what do they not buy the Guarantor, huh?
                  And Russian SVT hunters loved - until they demanded by law to do two things:
                  (1) remove the bayonet mount, and
                  (2) redo the scope for permanent.
                  The price of the alteration was such that many chose simply to turn in the SVT and buy another barrel.
                  And SVT was very much loved.
          4. yehat
            yehat April 25 2016 12: 11
            +1
            about the training of the composition, the comment of the Germans during the Rzhev battles is very characteristic - trained infantry suffers 4-5 times less losses in an equal battle with other infantry.
            When they had to mobilize the rear, their losses were practically equal to the losses of the soldiers of the Red Army.
          5. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA April 25 2016 13: 18
            +1
            Quote: avt
            Even the divisions of the people's militia from Moscow, falling into the hands of an experienced command, unpleasantly surprised the Germans, who decided to break through civilians.

            And there were only civilians? EMNIP, the divisions of the Moscow militia managed to rearm and equip the regular SD.
            It was in LANO that "workers from machine tools" went into battle, armed with what their native district committees and factories managed to find. As a result, some of the LANO divisions did not match in armament even to the reduced staff of the Red Army SD, and some had a replenishment of artillery and non-standard BA.
        2. Pilat2009
          Pilat2009 April 23 2016 12: 41
          +2
          Quote: Wallpaper Roll
          The last 100-200 m.

          As well as fighting in urban environments and in trenches
          1. Roll of wallpaper
            Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 13: 03
            0
            Quote: Pilat2009
            As well as fighting in urban environments and in trenches

            They usually do not occur beyond these distances there. But even there it is desirable to have high-quality PP, and not some.
          2. The comment was deleted.
        3. veteran66
          veteran66 April 23 2016 17: 46
          -2
          Quote: Wallpaper Roll
          The last 100-200 m.

          On the defensive, yes, it’s significant, but on the offensive the advance is better, aimless shooting on the run, the main thing is the density of fire.
          1. Roll of wallpaper
            Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 17: 56
            0
            Quote: veteran66
            and in the offensive, the PP is better, aimless shooting on the run, the main thing is the density of fire.

            As long as they approach at least 200 m and can only begin to demonstrate this "density of fire" to a minimum, they will already be destroyed by 200-250 m from Mauser and MG. How many people could have passed these 200-250 m?
            PPs had a right to exist for assault groups in cities. For tank paratroopers (motorized infantry). But for ordinary rifle divisions they were unacceptable (except for commanders and apparently the second numbers of the same DP-27, i.e. a couple of pieces per compartment, no more).
            1. veteran66
              veteran66 April 23 2016 18: 20
              +2
              Quote: Wallpaper Roll
              Until they get closer to at least 200 m and can only begin to demonstrate this "density of fire" to a minimum.

              yes, but after all, from a mosquito on the run there is neither density near, nor accuracy at a distance, so what's worse?
              1. Roll of wallpaper
                Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 18: 37
                -1
                Quote: veteran66
                But after all, from a mosquito on the run, there is neither density near, nor accuracy at a distance, so what's worse?

                From the mosquito you can effectively shoot at least from short stops. From PP it is impossible in any way.
                1. veteran66
                  veteran66 April 23 2016 21: 37
                  +1
                  Quote: Wallpaper Roll
                  Effectively shoot at least from short stops.

                  is it under fire "circular" on disguised targets ???? Oh well...
                  1. Roll of wallpaper
                    Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 21: 43
                    0
                    Quote: veteran66
                    is it under fire "circular" on disguised targets ???

                    It can be masked before the opening of fire. Then it is no longer disguised and it is quite possible to hit. Of a rifle, of course. The fighter is not alone in attacking, but someone will hit.
                    Or do you assume that the attackers do not shoot at all?
                    1. veteran66
                      veteran66 April 23 2016 22: 04
                      0
                      Quote: Wallpaper Roll
                      Or do you assume that the attackers do not shoot at all?

                      You, see, have seen enough movies. They shoot of course, but not aiming, and even, sometimes, from the trenches, too
                      1. Roll of wallpaper
                        Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 22: 18
                        0
                        Quote: veteran66
                        Shoot of course, but not aimed

                        This is a rifle, this is not PP. And not a handbrake. There is no point in shooting aimlessly. At least more or less, but aim.
                      2. veteran66
                        veteran66 April 23 2016 22: 24
                        +1
                        Quote: Wallpaper Roll
                        At least more or less, but aim.

                        ))))) but what's the point?
                      3. Roll of wallpaper
                        Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 22: 28
                        0
                        Quote: veteran66
                        and the meaning?

                        Weird question. And why do they shoot at the enemy?
                  2. The comment was deleted.
              2. The comment was deleted.
  • yehat
    yehat April 25 2016 12: 06
    -1
    what nafig 400 meters?
    even from SVD with optics it is not recommended to shoot further than 300m.
    and the submachine gun was really effective up to about 100-150m.
  • Svidetel 45
    Svidetel 45 April 25 2016 22: 34
    0
    It would be more accurate to say "we were solving the issue of the last 200 meters," 400 meters of which could only be fired to kill theoretically.
  • Roll of wallpaper
    Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 09: 12
    .
    Quote: mamont5
    but the number of PPSh / PPS in department also increased.

    This is an unequal replacement. A full-fledged military battle begins at 400-450 m. Normal combat forces are able to somehow engage in combat from 200 m. From 100 m, they are already able to operate effectively. But this is not about PPSh / PPD, the range of their effective defeat was only 35 m.
  • AK64
    AK64 April 24 2016 12: 42
    +1
    but the number of PPSh / PPS in department also increased.

    ... that the firepower of the squad only reduced
  • Horst78
    Horst78 April 23 2016 06: 52
    .

    Soviet infantry unit.
    The number of shooting department was 11 people.
    1. Part-commander (self-loading rifle SVT) - 1 people
    2. The Heavy (gun / revolver and DP-27 light machine gun) - 1 people.
    3. Machine Gun Assistant (self-loading rifle SVT) - 1 people
    4. Gunmen (machine guns PPSH / PPD) - 2 people.
    5. Arrows (self-loading rifles SVT) - 6 people
    What does this nonsense mean? what This is WHERE such infantry squads WERE?
    1. bistrov.
      bistrov. April 23 2016 08: 12
      -3
      Quote: Horst78
      What does this nonsense mean?

      Yes, the author bent a little here, he gave theoretical data. In fact, not all soldiers in the rifle division were armed with SVT. There could be different combinations, self-loading rifles in the compartment could be 1-2, the rest were armed with three rulers. The soldiers still had a fear of self-loading rifles, they were more demanding of maintenance and adjustments, so they were given to the most competent and experienced soldiers.
      1. Stas57
        April 23 2016 08: 23
        +10
        Yes, the author here is a little bent,

        not too much
        state number 04 / 400-416 from 5 April 1941 g. http://www.rkka.ru/org/str/rb.html
        in the company
        12 machine guns,
        98 SVT
        27 Rifles
        27 PP
    2. Stas57
      April 23 2016 09: 04
      +7
      Quote: Horst78
      What does this nonsense mean? This is WHERE such infantry squads WERE?

      in the red army
      The staff of the infantry division No. 04 / 400-416 from 5 April 1941
      1. WYCCTPUJIA
        WYCCTPUJIA April 23 2016 11: 09
        +2
        Thank you for the clarity, which the author of the article did not have. hi
  • aba
    aba April 23 2016 06: 55
    +4
    In conclusion, a couple of photos of the use of trophies by opponents.

    A common occurrence in wartime: officers who had the chance to be in Vietnam noted that the Americans, if they had the opportunity to take control of Kalash, easily parted with their M-16s.
    1. cth; fyn
      cth; fyn April 23 2016 07: 54
      +6
      They also saved Private Ryan and smoked grass through a shotgun, I also watched this film.
    2. Revolver
      Revolver April 23 2016 08: 42
      +4
      Quote: aba
      Americans, if they had the opportunity to take possession of Kalash, then easily parted with their M-16

      As a rule, this was not welcomed by the authorities, and it was not a matter of patriotism. The battles were in conditions of limited visibility (jungle!). Largely focused on hearing. And the sound of shooting AK is very characteristic, you can not confuse with anything. There have been times when the lucky owners of captured AKs were picking on theirs.
    3. Roll of wallpaper
      Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 09: 17
      .
      Quote: aba
      officers who had the opportunity to be in Vietnam noted that the Americans, if they had the opportunity to take control of Kalash, easily parted with their M-16

      These are storytellers. They could easily tell you about their travels in flying saucers.
      1. aba
        aba April 23 2016 15: 30
        +3
        These are storytellers.

        I served in the air defense in the 70s, so we had officers who went through Vietnam, and there was no reason not to believe them.
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        4. Roll of wallpaper
          Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 15: 51
          -1
          Quote: aba
          I served in the air defense in the 70s, so we had officers who went through Vietnam, and there was no reason not to believe them.

          You yourself write - air defense. Even if they were in Vietnam, how and where did they see those "Americans with Kalash"? Anyway, any Americans. Storytellers are.
          And the M16 in Vietnam showed themselves so that the United States dismissed its M14 with a knee and made the M16 just the main weapon of its infantry.
          And the USSR, in exactly the same way, dismissed its AKM (which, according to the storytellers, was allegedly hunted by the Americans). And in return he adopted the AK-74. If you do not know, then TTX AKM and AK-74 have very little in common.
          1. aba
            aba April 23 2016 18: 05
            +1
            Even if they were in Vietnam, how and where did they see those "Americans with Kalash"?

            Well, of course, you are right: they lived in a vacuum and did not see anything and communicated with anyone ... In short, they invented everything. And only you need to believe.
            1. Roll of wallpaper
              Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 18: 34
              0
              Quote: aba
              they lived in a vacuum and saw nothing and communicated with anyone ...

              Did the Vietnamese tell? Namely the foot soldiers? What language? Here is such a simple question, in what language?
              Or the attached Cerberus told? So he could tell a lot of things. He has such a job.
              In addition, there were not many M16s in Vietnam, they were only tested there. What kind of tests are these if the testers refused them and exchanged them for Kalash? And why would suddenly, after such a failure of tests, the United States and the USSR almost simultaneously switch to the M16 and its analogue (AK-74) as the main one? Moreover, the USSR gave up just that very Kalash (AKM), "after which the Americans were chasing."
              Not all fairy tales have to be believed. Even "from reliable sources."
              1. Disant
                Disant April 23 2016 21: 56
                +2
                Roll, you contradict yourself.
                The USSR "abandoned" the AKM, because the AK-74 is more perfect - lighter, faster, more accurate, more reliable.
                but from this "refusal" does not expire the conclusion that the AKM is worse than the M14 or M16 - it is simply RELIABLE and UNHEADY.
                that's why they "hunted" - there was an opportunity - they took and used.
                look
                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McSJL_Bxgsg
                1. Roll of wallpaper
                  Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 22: 26
                  -1
                  Quote: Disant
                  The USSR "abandoned" the AKM, because the AK-74 is more perfect - lighter, faster, more accurate, more reliable.
                  but from this "refusal" does not expire the conclusion that the AKM is worse than the M14 or M16 - it is simply RELIABLE and UNHEADY.

                  Then I will tell you one more "secret", the AK-74 (which is definitely better than the AKM) does not even reach the M16A1, not to mention the M16A2. Now how, regarding the M16 expires?
                  As for М14, I am too lazy to develop. the conversation was originally about the M16. With which the Americans allegedly "easily parted by taking possession of the Kalash."
                2. The comment was deleted.
              2. rJIiOK
                rJIiOK April 24 2016 00: 52
                +2
                Well, yes, after the flood the Lord divided the peoples, yet they did not understand each other.
                Of course, the Soviet advisers and Vietnamese soldiers at the meetings were silent and dispersed, shrugging their shoulders.
          2. rJIiOK
            rJIiOK April 24 2016 00: 51
            +3
            Eccentric man, the 7.62 AK-47 cartridge in the jungle did not ricochet through the jungle like the 5.56 m-16
      2. jjj
        jjj April 23 2016 15: 49
        +4
        In Severodvinsk, many years ago, a veteran machine gunner said that when they met with the Americans in 1945, they were very envious of how cleverly they were mounted on a special machine "Browning" in a jeep. Very convenient to shoot.
        But our machine gunners on the Maxims, varying the length of the bursts, "played" the Dance of the Little Swans. The Americans did not succeed
      3. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I April 23 2016 17: 35
        +4
        Quote: Wallpaper Roll
        officers who had the opportunity to be in Vietnam noted that the Americans, if they had the opportunity to take control of Kalash, easily parted with their M-16
        These are storytellers. They could easily tell you about their travels in flying saucers

        The M-16 rifle at the initial stage of the development of this weapon by the army in combat conditions (Vietnam) "dumped" a lot of problems with its owners. And this is not a fairy tale, an influential American newspaper wrote about it (in 1967?).
        1. Roll of wallpaper
          Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 17: 47
          -2
          Quote: Nikolaevich I
          The M-16 rifle at the initial stage of the development of this weapon by the army in combat conditions (Vietnam) "dumped" many problems to its owners.

          Willingly I believe. But the main weapon of the American infantry in Vietnam was the M14. And the M16 was tested there in a combat situation. Therefore, M16 could not be changed to Kalash. But according to the results of these tests in real combat conditions, the M16 and AK-74 became the main infantry weapon. And M14 and AKM retired. Moreover, in the USSR, weapons on a cartridge of 7,62x39 mm were disposed of categorically. Those. at all.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. Disant
            Disant April 23 2016 22: 01
            +1
            as they used both calibers in parallel,
            1. Roll of wallpaper
              Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 22: 21
              -2
              Quote: Disant
              as they used both calibers in parallel,

              Do not fantasize.
        2. The comment was deleted.
    4. Pilat2009
      Pilat2009 April 24 2016 08: 39
      0
      Quote: aba
      it was easy to part with their M-16

      And where did they get cartridges?
  • svp67
    svp67 April 23 2016 06: 58
    +3
    The author, describing the "+" and "-", forgot to mention one of the big drawbacks of the DP. This is the overheating of the return spring. That greatly reduced the ability to fire from it.
    1. max73
      max73 April 23 2016 07: 54
      -3
      also posed this question. the gaze was already cut, of course, where something similar happened in the charter ... only in reality the SVT in the Red Army did not take root, like a mass weapon
      1. Awaz
        Awaz April 23 2016 08: 21
        +6
        Well, as far as I know, SVT is not a bad weapon for experienced fighters. She did not take root because of the large losses of skilled military personnel at the initial stage of the war, and the reservists simply did not have experience and there was little desire to use sufficiently sophisticated weapons. Although I agree that the analysis is not very adequate. The data is used, not even at the beginning of the war, but rather a hypothetical assumption about what should have been on both sides at the beginning of the conflict. SVT was not enough for everyone, and although there was an increase in production, they weren’t riveted to the whole army .....
        1. Roll of wallpaper
          Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 09: 22
          .
          Quote: AwaZ
          and the reservists simply had no experience and even a special desire to use quite complex weapons

          It's not about experience. Nobody wanted to use SVT according to the instructions. Nobody used it like that, neither the Marines, nor the deputy techies, nor the Germans. Because mass army weapons should not be associated with the word "hemorrhoids".
          1. veteran66
            veteran66 April 23 2016 18: 02
            -1
            Quote: Wallpaper Roll
            mass army weapons should not be associated with the word "hemorrhoids".

            I agree, but SVT is not the most hemorrhoidal weapon yet, however, it was also used (for example, the Shosh system machine gun and this is not the only option).
            1. Roll of wallpaper
              Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 18: 45
              +2
              Quote: veteran66
              but SVT is not the most hemorrhoidal weapon yet, however it was also used

              May be. But the most massive. 5 positions of the gas regulator with the need for a partial disassembly of the rifle to switch from position to position (wrench), this is something. How one could think of such a thing is completely incomprehensible. Of course, few people bothered with this, basically they put it to the maximum and that's it. The rifle served well, but not for long. For a Wehrmacht with a cost price of 0 pfening it fit well (Selbstladegewehr 259 (r)). For the Red Army, has ceased to come, expensive.
      2. veteran66
        veteran66 April 23 2016 18: 00
        +1
        Quote: max73
        SVT in the Red Army did not take root as a mass weapon

        during the war, and in the initial period even as it was. Enough photos of those years to see. I’m not talking about the marines, they’ve gone through the entire war with them, but even with partisans they are not uncommon. Photo of sending recruits to the front in November 1941, Gorky, polls are armed with Svets.
    2. Comrade Bender
      Comrade Bender April 23 2016 08: 33
      +8
      Serving in the appropriate place and conditions, for 4 months he had the opportunity to use the "Tar", which he did. I released 6-8 discs at a time and no overheating.
      1. Roll of wallpaper
        Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 09: 24
        -6
        Quote: Comrade Bender
        Released 6-8 discs at a time and no overheating.

        The barrel is not curled up with the letter "Zu"? It was necessary to charge with tracers. Then the picture "no overheating" would be visible to the naked eye.
        1. Comrade Bender
          Comrade Bender April 23 2016 15: 53
          +7
          There were both tracer and non-incendiary and for shooting in greenery (everything was mixed) and the ambient temperature was +45 in the shade. And the letter "siu" was not observed on the horizon. However, when he grabbed it with his bare hand after the shooting, burn marks from the perforated casing remained on the palm. Although the "Tar" (I had 5 of them.) Were 44 and 45gg. release.
          I don’t recommend standing up to shoot from it. Sleeves fly out from below and hit in a place in which I would not want to. It is necessary to turn it a little on the axis, then everything will be safe for the causal place.
          But, if you think that your theoretical knowledge is more essential than practical application, I will not persuade you.
          1. Roll of wallpaper
            Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 16: 06
            -3
            Quote: Comrade Bender
            There were tracers, and b / incendiary and for shooting in the green (all mixed up) and the ambient temperature +45 in the shade.

            You get it just like the famous O. Bender. "You were deceived, you were given better fur." So it is with you. It turns out that the NSD brazenly hides the real possibilities of the PDM. Who would have thought. Insidious, you will not say anything.
            Quote: Comrade Bender
            Sleeves fly out from below and hit in a place in which I would not want to.

            But this is a real jamb of ergonomics. And I'm not joking. The author is obliged to think about everything in the production process. This is his job.
            1. Comrade Bender
              Comrade Bender April 23 2016 16: 40
              +2
              Regarding the first remark, about the "best fur": if you have not used something in practice, you should not rest your theory against the one who used it.
              I am not offended by the literary image. Everyone is free to see in him what he wants.
              With regard to the second remark: the machine gun was created for main shooting from bipods, and in this case, the shells flying out from the side could hit a nearby soldier (you didn’t fly by the collar of an AK shell when shooting in a prone chain?). Subsequently, on the PC, for this case, a spring bar was provided on the "window" of the ejection of the liners.
              1. Roll of wallpaper
                Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 17: 04
                -3
                Quote: Comrade Bender
                if you have not used anything in practice, do not rest your theory against the one who used it.

                And what is this criterion "used"? And so what? There is an NSD, this is an OFFICIAL DOCUMENT. There the rate of fire is clearly defined, 70-80 rounds per minute. Everything else is wild and not very fantasy.
                Quote: Comrade Bender
                the machine gun was created for the main firing from the bipod

                The machine gun was created for use as a manual. Therefore, he has a bunch of flaws in terms of ergonomics, it is completely not thought out. You wrote about the sleeve. Another serious drawback was that there was no handle for the left hand. And since it was later adapted to hold it, it is very inconvenient and impractical. It is completely impossible to precisely aim the machine gun at the target. In addition, the machine gun in this mode twitches when shooting in all directions, shooting is ineffective.
                1. Comrade Bender
                  Comrade Bender April 23 2016 22: 04
                  +3
                  It is very difficult to explain anything about the Degtyarev machine gun to a person who did not shoot from it. Or do you propose to use the instructions instead and shoot from them?
                  For the left hand, a butt of the corresponding form was made, for a more tight pressure on his shoulder. If this is not convenient for you, then these are your personal problems. In my memory, no one complained about it.
                  There is no jerking in all directions. The machine gun, firmly set in the ground on the bipod, is quite stable and has "twitching" only forward and backward, which does not at all affect the stable aiming. At a distance of 800 meters, I hit the target quite confidently, firing in short bursts.
                  Continue to study weapons in theory (learning is a useful and necessary thing), but do not play too much, or you will theoretically fight them. A theory without practice is nothing.
                  1. Roll of wallpaper
                    Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 22: 15
                    +1
                    Quote: Comrade Bender
                    It is very difficult to explain anything about the Degtyarev machine gun to a person who did not shoot from it.

                    1. I shot him.
                    2. I do not understand how this helped me in my life.
                    Quote: Comrade Bender
                    for tighter pressure on his shoulder

                    Quote: Comrade Bender
                    The machine gun, firmly set in the ground on the bipod, is quite stable and has "twitching" only forward and backward

                    Actually, as it were, firing on the go. When firing on the go, the case has one jamb (you wrote about it), while trying to keep the machine gun in the same mode, the other.
                    I'm sorry you did not understand me.
                    1. Comrade Bender
                      Comrade Bender April 23 2016 22: 34
                      +1
                      The fact that you did not shoot from it, speaks only about one thing. Before discussing anything, you need to know this not only in theory, but also in practice.
                      Combat properties and the purpose of a light machine gun

                      1. The DP light machine gun is the main automatic weapon of the rifle compartment. Its combat mission is to destroy open and camouflaged group and important single living targets at distances up to 800 m and destroy attack aircraft and paratroopers at ranges up to 500 m.
                      2. As a rule, fire from a light machine gun is carried out in short bursts (3 – 6 shots). The rate of fire of a light machine gun reaches 600 rounds per minute. Its combat rate of fire - up to 80 rounds per minute
                      1. Roll of wallpaper
                        Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 22: 39
                        0
                        Quote: Comrade Bender
                        Combat properties and the purpose of a light machine gun

                        Why was all this writing? It was enough to copy the introduction from the NSD.
                      2. Comrade Bender
                        Comrade Bender April 23 2016 22: 56
                        +7
                        I did this on purpose, not only you know the instructions. Combine them with practice and many of your statements will disappear by themselves. I wish you good luck and the use of weapons only in the dash.
  • sa-ag
    sa-ag April 23 2016 06: 59
    -3
    machine guns should be compared, not infantry squads, otherwise the Germans might have a company mortar, and in the DP, the spring from overheating weakened
    1. lel
      lel April 23 2016 07: 44
      0
      in a similar article I read about + German MG .... due to the higher rate of fire was higher and accuracy (accuracy) of hitting the target ....
      1. cth; fyn
        cth; fyn April 23 2016 07: 51
        +7
        Rather than accuracy, but the probability of defeat?
    2. Stas57
      April 23 2016 07: 55
      +11
      Quote: sa-ag
      machine guns should be compared, not infantry squads, otherwise the Germans might have a company mortar, and in the DP, the spring from overheating weakened

      the machine gun does not live in a vacuum, but in a regular structure.
      as soon as they are individually launched into space, then we will compare)
  • Monster_Fat
    Monster_Fat April 23 2016 07: 07
    +2
    Interesting, but not entirely true. Well, firstly, the DP machine gun had a low combat rate of fire, it, by definition, could not shoot in long bursts, it quickly overheated and jammed, and the jammed sleeve was difficult to knock out. Changing the barrel was much more difficult than the MG and was practically not used in combat conditions (partly due to the mentality of our soldiers, who threw out heavy replaceable barrels during marches, which were carried out on foot and over a long distance throughout the war). In addition, the DP had low accuracy due to strong bouncing when firing and a high sighting line (the magazine from above interferes with aiming). A strong flame during shooting (due to the poor quality of our gunpowders) blinded the gunner from the DP at dusk and at night. Disk magazines in a combat situation were extremely difficult to equip and heavy to carry. The German machine gun had the ability to feed the tape from both sides - an interesting ability, but in principle it was not particularly in demand, so it was no longer in 42 models. But most importantly, our light machine gun was not universal - it could not be used on heavy machines, with telescopic sights, etc., which greatly reduced the tactical use of our machine gun and forced us to equip such obsolete and heavy machine guns as the Maxim machine, which is due to its weight and bulkiness, it could hardly accompany the infantry with fire during maneuvering combat and stood out strongly in positions, which led to the rapid detection of the machine gun and its destruction.
    1. svp67
      svp67 April 23 2016 08: 17
      +3
      Quote: Monster_Fat
      But most importantly, our light machine gun was not universal - it could not be used on heavy machines, with telescopic sights, etc., which greatly reduced the tactical use of our machine gun and forced us to equip such obsolete and heavy machine guns as the Maxim machine, which is due to its weight and bulkiness, it could hardly accompany the infantry with fire during maneuvering combat and stood out strongly in positions, which led to the rapid detection of the machine gun and its destruction.

      Low industrial culture and many more industrial and other reasons, as a result of which the appeared pair of machine guns, manual DP and easel DS, could not take their rightful place in the weapons system of the Red Army during the Second World War. It turned out to be easier to return the "maxim" to the stream, although the DS, model 1943, was a completely normal machine gun.
      1. bistrov.
        bistrov. April 23 2016 09: 11
        +6
        Quote: svp67
        although the DS, model 1943 was a completely normal machine gun.

        In 1943, the SG (easel goryunova) was adopted, which in the 70s could be seen on the T-55s and BTR-152s, and the DS (degtyareva easel), indeed, was discontinued in 1941 due to shortcomings found in real combat conditions (low survivability of individual parts and the inability to use a brass sleeve) and returned to the production of heavy (66 kg), and quite expensive, but technologically advanced "Maxims"
        1. Roll of wallpaper
          Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 11: 53
          -3
          Quote: bistrov.
          but technologically advanced "Maxims"

          Just the only ones available at that moment. Despite the mass of flaws.
      2. Lex.
        Lex. April 23 2016 09: 25
        +1
        Well, there was dshkm too easel which the Germans did not have
      3. Roll of wallpaper
        Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 09: 32
        .
        Quote: svp67
        although the DS, model 1943 was a completely normal machine gun.

        In dash and with reference cartridges. In the field and on conventional cartridges he was conditionally combat-ready.
    2. bistrov.
      bistrov. April 23 2016 08: 28
      +10
      Well, you have gone to extremes. The Democratic Party was a powerful and reliable weapon. You don’t need to say that you cannot shoot from it in long bursts. They shot and constantly. Of course, if you release three disks in a row in continuous bursts, the machine gun will jam and the spring will overheat. But you also need to have a consideration! As for the flame from the shot, MG had it much more, the DP was equipped with a powerful bell-flame arrester, and MG was just a muzzle, which practically did not reduce the exhaust of the flame.
    3. Stas57
      April 23 2016 08: 35
      +11
      Firstly, the DP machine gun had a low combat rate of fire, by definition it could not shoot in long bursts, it quickly overheated and jammed, and it was difficult to knock out the jammed sleeve.

      the funny thing is that MG had, on the contrary, too high rate of fire.
      DP personally seemed to me more reasonable, it’s easier to amend, it’s easier to control the pace. although yes jumps (and MG jumps)

      Changing the barrel was much more difficult compared to the MG and was practically not used in combat conditions.
      not so direct that the armament technician was required — I did it in 20 —30 seconds — pressed the button, turned right. you may have to hit with milk.
      MG is certainly much simpler and faster, but it warmed up more strongly, according to the recollections of the grandfathers (whom we interviewed), we all shot and saved a lot (this is German pouring water), so there was no intense overheating.
      Disk stores in combat situations were extremely difficult to equip and heavy to carry.

      did you charge the tape with your hands ?!
      winter?
      drive is easy.
      the tape is more compact, but it needs to be lifted, and there is no way to get along with 2-3 disks (1 is charging, 1 shoots)
      lost the tape, sorry.
      not charged, sorry.


      But most importantly, our light machine gun was not universal - it could not be used on heavy machines, with telescopic sights, etc.

      I agree - the first single MG, yes

      which, due to its severity and cumbersomeness, could hardly accompany the infantry with fire during a maneuverable battle and stood out strongly in positions, which led to the rapid detection of the machine gun and its destruction

      but the shield was)
      By the way, read at Shumilin how he kept the tanks with Maxim, even if he lied, it is still very beautiful.
      1. Roll of wallpaper
        Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 09: 59
        -9
        Quote: Stas57
        MG had on the contrary too high rate of fire

        This is called the rate of fire. They had a removable moderator in the kit.
        Quote: Stas57
        I did in 20-30 seconds, pressed the button, turned right. you may have to hit with milk.

        Replacing barrels in the field in the Red Army was not practiced at all. She was not even practiced in captured MGs (as it is written in the Soviet NSD for them), where it was easy to do. No spare barrels were included in any kits. They were in "transport spare parts", in order to replace damaged barrels. But they weren't on the front lines.
        Quote: Stas57
        I agree - the first single MG, yes

        MG, this is the "German single machine gun". Neither before nor after MG anywhere else in the world were there such "uniform machine guns". Dead-end branch of development.
        For those who are not in the know. MG1 and MG3 already have only some similarities with MG42. Nevertheless, this similarity exists. Later, the machine gun was thoroughly redone, and the MG5 with the MG42 have nothing at all but external resemblance and some structural elements.
        Quote: Stas57
        but the shield was)

        And a thin-walled casing. One shrapnel or bullet, and this is not a machine gun, but an automatic rifle. But very difficult.
        1. alpamys
          alpamys April 23 2016 12: 06
          +4
          Quote: Wallpaper Roll
          For those who are not in the know. MG1 and MG3 already have some similarities with MG42

          MG1 is a post-war production of MG42 with a cartridge of 8,92x57, and MG3 is the same machine gun, but under the NATO cartridge.
          1. Roll of wallpaper
            Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 12: 20
            -2
            Quote: alpamys
            MG1 is a post-war production of MG42 with a cartridge of 8,92x57, and MG3 is the same machine gun, but under the NATO cartridge.

            No, after 2MV MG a cartridge of 7,92x57 mm was not produced. And those MG42s that were in stock were converted under the 7,62 × 51 mm NATO cartridge. And they were called MG2. And MG1 was immediately made under the NATO cartridge.
            From the use of a new normal cartridge, the performance characteristics of the MG. They became normal uniform machine guns, and not "German uniform", as it was in the Wehrmacht.
            1. alpamys
              alpamys April 23 2016 15: 43
              +2
              Quote: Wallpaper Roll

              No, after 2MV MG a cartridge of 7,92x57 mm was not produced. And those MG42s that were in stock were converted under the 7,62 × 51 mm NATO cartridge. And they were called MG2. And MG1 was immediately made under the NATO cartridge.

              Learn the topic, even the Yugoslavs released their MG42 chambered for 8x57, calling it MG53, they also released their SVD under the same cartridge, called "Zastava M76".
              1. Roll of wallpaper
                Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 15: 58
                -3
                Quote: alpamys
                learn the topic

                It concerns you first of all.
                Quote: alpamys
                even the Yugoslavs fired their MG42 under the 8x57 cartridge, calling it MG53

                There are several options for the correct answer:
                1. Yugoslavia was part of Germany.
                2. Germany was part of Yugoslavia.
                3. You have pierced and are now translating the arrows.
                Which answer do you choose?
                Quote: alpamys
                they also produced their SVD under the same cartridge, called "Zastava M76".

                And what's this? To the rain?
    4. bunta
      bunta April 23 2016 08: 59
      +20
      Again "mentality", "discarded barrels", "low quality gunpowder", "low accuracy from bouncing."
      Let the mentality be on the conscience, but for the "thrown" trunk it was possible to fly into the penal battalion. "Poor quality powder" is how much below the waterline? MG also did not differ in blackout. Something I have not come across measurements of the luminosity of DP vs MG flashes, but I often see behind-the-eye statements.

      The DP shook much less than MG, since it worked from an open shutter (the impulse in the recess of the shutter frame partially extinguished the recoil), in MG - a short barrel stroke with an incremental impulse from the muzzle.

      And now compare the years of creation. DP and actually his peer ZB-26 and MG-34. Louis Stange had a significant head start to study all the design flaws identified in these machine guns and the results of their combat use.

      The undoubted achievement of the Germans is the concept of a "single machine gun".






      Incidentally, it would be worth noting that the defeat of the Germans near Moscow was caused not least by the fact that the MG-34, as the main combat unit of the squad, simply refused in the cold.
      1. zadorin1974
        zadorin1974 April 23 2016 10: 52
        +2
        The MG’s signature style at night was a cross-shaped flame of a shot. It was visible from great distances. The Germans reduced the rate of fire of the MG 42 (manual version) by installing softer springs and a heavier shutter.
        1. Roll of wallpaper
          Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 11: 47
          -2
          Quote: zadorin1974
          by establishing softer springs and a heavier shutter

          No, the kit included a special removable moderator.
        2. alpamys
          alpamys April 23 2016 11: 54
          0
          Quote: zadorin1974
          The MG’s signature style at night was a cross-shaped flame of a shot. It was visible from great distances. The Germans reduced the rate of fire of the MG 42 (manual version) by installing softer springs and a heavier shutter.

          I’m familiar that he served as a machine gunner in the Bundes. You can slow down / increase the rate of fire for the MG3 by turning the arrester, and the MG42 can also.
      2. alpamys
        alpamys April 23 2016 12: 01
        0
        Quote: bunta

        Incidentally, it would be worth noting that the defeat of the Germans near Moscow was caused not least by the fact that the MG-34, as the main combat unit of the squad, simply refused in the cold.


        it happened, then the prisoner suggested that the Germans "cook" one of the MGs in boiling water, degreasing it, the lubricant froze.
  • aszzz888
    aszzz888 April 23 2016 07: 16
    -4
    Maximum firing range: from a bipod no more than 1200 m (3500 m on the machine)

    What's the difference with a bipod or a machine? Unclear.
    1. svp67
      svp67 April 23 2016 07: 42
      0
      Quote: aszzz888
      What's the difference with a bipod or a machine? Unclear.

      Big one. The machine has more machine gun stability, and means accuracy and the ability to more accurately aim higher
    2. Stas57
      April 23 2016 07: 59
      +5
      on the machine, with the 3-fold machine-gun prismatic sight MGZ.34
    3. bunta
      bunta April 23 2016 09: 20
      +2
      The machine has the ability to pre-set the limits of the firing sector at the place of the likely appearance of the enemy. That would not bother during the battle with the determination of distance and amendments.
  • semirek
    semirek April 23 2016 07: 22
    0
    The main machine-gun load in the Red Army during the Second World War was still carried by the "Maxim", there was no more reliable machine gun in the Red Army, no matter how you twist it, both on the offensive (on skis in winter) and on the defensive.
    1. svp67
      svp67 April 23 2016 07: 43
      0
      Quote: semirek
      there was no more reliable machine gun in the Red Army, just don’t turn it on the offensive (skiing in winter) and on the defensive.

      And how do you rate SG?
    2. lel
      lel April 23 2016 07: 46
      +1
      Maxim yes .... carried .... but he was not in the machine gun compartment .....
  • parusnik
    parusnik April 23 2016 07: 28
    0
    Thank you, photos are the last interesting ..
    1. Stas57
      April 23 2016 08: 02
      +6
      I can distribute many of these to you from my collection, enjoy))
      letters, words and arrows are painted by sellers


      Bergmann 1915 MG 15 nA for backlash near Rzhev


      care


      with trophy maxim


      trophy


      still trophy

      and the last is the worst and most beloved



      MG08 with water hose
      1. bistrov.
        bistrov. April 23 2016 09: 00
        0
        MG-08, this is the same "Maxim", but only the cunning Russians put it on wheels and adapted the armor shield, and the Germans carried it in their arms throughout the war.
  • cth; fyn
    cth; fyn April 23 2016 07: 46
    0
    Forgot to mention that the DP of the first issues "spat" with cartridges when heated, which was later eliminated.
    1. Roll of wallpaper
      Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 10: 13
      -4
      Quote: cth; fyn
      The DP of the first issues "spat" with cartridges when heated, which was later eliminated.

      Any weapons spit bullets when overheating. This can not be eliminated only if you make another machine gun. And he will also spit upon overheating. Perhaps only the threshold of this overheating will be different.
  • vietnam7
    vietnam7 April 23 2016 08: 05
    +5
    Thanks to the author for his work, the article is interesting precisely because it did not compare two separate types of weapons, and, as it were, in the complex more closely with real conditions. Drabkin, in my opinion, it was somewhere in the memoirs of veterans that we learned quickly the peculiarity of building the Germans’s detachment around the machine gun, and first of all the whole fire was concentrated on it.
    1. Stas57
      April 23 2016 08: 26
      +7
      and thank you for understanding the main premise - to compare in a complex of conditions, and not two specific types per se
      1. vietnam7
        vietnam7 April 23 2016 08: 28
        +1
        Are you preparing any new articles?
        1. Stas57
          April 23 2016 09: 00
          0
          Quote: vietnam7
          Are you preparing any new articles?

          no, this is in the wake of an article about SVT born.
          http://topwar.ru/93985-za-chto-v-krasnoy-armii-lyubili-tulskuyu-svetu.html#comme
          nt-id-5795833
  • kvs207
    kvs207 April 23 2016 08: 27
    0
    Quote: Monster_Fat
    Interesting, but not entirely true.

    Interestingly, did any of the local inhabitants use the DP "live"?
    1. ICT
      ICT April 23 2016 08: 50
      0
      Quote: kvs207
      used DP "live"?


      held only in hands
    2. Comrade Bender
      Comrade Bender April 23 2016 16: 18
      +3
      I used it for 4 of the month.
  • bionik
    bionik April 23 2016 08: 44
    +5
    ... The second number also held a machine gun on his shoulder ...Shooting from the shoulder.
    1. bistrov.
      bistrov. April 23 2016 09: 02
      +3
      And as soon as the eardrums of the second number withstand?
      1. bionik
        bionik April 23 2016 09: 19
        +1
        Quote: bistrov.
        And as soon as the eardrums of the second number withstand?

        Judging by the photo, he also had to go blind, the arrester is at eye level. (Although the photo may be staged).
        1. alpamys
          alpamys April 23 2016 11: 45
          +1
          Quote: bionik
          Quote: bistrov.
          And as soon as the eardrums of the second number withstand?

          Judging by the photo, he also had to go blind, the arrester is at eye level. (Although the photo may be staged).

          in the Bundeswehr practice such shooting
    2. 97110
      97110 April 23 2016 09: 10
      +2
      Quote: bionik
      Shooting from the shoulder.

      Shot at a shooting range from an M98K. All observers complained of blows to the ears. (The cartridge is the same as that of the MG). On a hunt, a neighbor with a number from IZH-27 shot next to his ear - I used to swear at him later. How does this "machine" not stall?
      1. igoryok1984
        igoryok1984 April 23 2016 09: 26
        0
        Probably, when you hear such "blows on the ears" every day, you gradually get used to it. smile
      2. alpamys
        alpamys April 23 2016 11: 51
        0
        Quote: 97110
        "Hitler's Circular" had a rate of fire of 800-900 v / m

        what kind of bumps on the ears? laughing that with the K98 that with the mosinka "blows to the ears" are the same, the Mauser recoil is stronger than that of Mosin.
        1. Ivan Tartugai
          Ivan Tartugai April 23 2016 14: 11
          0
          Quote: alpamys
          what kind of blows to the ears? that with the K98 that with the mosinka "blows to the ears" are the same, the Mauser recoil is stronger than that of Mosin.


          The Mauser 98k, compared to the 7,62 mm rifle of the 1891/30 model, i.e. the famous "three-line" and the sound of the shot is louder, and the recoil is stronger, and the flame is brighter.
        2. 97110
          97110 April 23 2016 19: 47
          +1
          Quote: alpamys
          what kind of blows to the ears? that with the K98 that with the mosinka "blows to the ears" are the same, the Mauser recoil is stronger than that of Mosin.

          The most amazing thing is that the arrow does not hit the ears. He gave the carbine to the owner of the shooting gallery, stood next to him - he beat. Sound beats, not a butt. This is for your feedback about the return. An underground shooting range, the sound is stronger in the room. And, embarrassed to ask, is the K98 a Mauser-98K? About the same. Cartridge Mauserovsky more Mosinsky, and in caliber, and on the sleeve. Not fatal, but still. And the trunk is shorter. Here is the next comment about it.
          1. alpamys
            alpamys April 23 2016 20: 47
            +1
            Quote: 97110
            And, embarrassed to ask, K98 is the Mauser-98K?

            that's right, they call it differently (I shoot regularly at them in Germany), carbines-K98, gevers-G98 or M98.
            here (photo) marking Gew.98, on my MMG Mauser 1908 there is M98.

    3. andrewkor
      andrewkor April 23 2016 13: 40
      +1
      Exactly the same photo was from the time of the Vietnam War and the MG-42 machine gun with a drum! Of course, the Vietnamese!
      1. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I April 23 2016 17: 49
        +2
        Quote: andrewkor
        Exactly the same photo was from the time of the Vietnam War and the MG-42 machine gun with a drum! Of course, the Vietnamese!

        Actually, the "drum" was used only with the MG-34, not with the MG-42 ...
    4. veteran66
      veteran66 April 23 2016 18: 13
      +1
      Quote: bionik
      Shooting from the shoulder.

      tin !!!! the ear at the cut of the trunk ... then he heard?
      1. 97110
        97110 April 23 2016 19: 51
        +2
        Quote: veteran66
        tin !!!! the ear at the cut of the trunk ... then he heard?

        What was minus? Huh? Have you tried to stand it yourself, minusers? A person writes correctly. Moders are like Yarosh, with help someone will post on the site.
  • igoryok1984
    igoryok1984 April 23 2016 09: 19
    0
    Quote: "It is generally accepted that the squad with MG-34 was" cooler "than the squad with DP-27, it seemed to be correct - Hitler's Circular had a rate of fire of 800-900 rpm ..." Actually, the nickname is Circular Hitler "had an MG-42 for a rate of fire of 1200-1500 v / m.
    1. Stas57
      April 23 2016 09: 25
      +7
      Quote: "It is generally accepted that the squad with MG-34 was" cooler "than the squad with DP-27, it seemed to be correct - Hitler's Circular had a rate of fire of 800-900 rpm ..." Actually, the nickname is Circular Hitler "had an MG-42 for a rate of fire of 1200-1500 v / m.

      I was waiting for this remark)
      As practice shows, naming people combine different types under one name, for example.
      all fours are tigers
      all sau this is ferdinand
      etc.
      by the end of the war, all types of MG (and 34 was still abundant) were called this nickname
    2. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I April 23 2016 17: 47
      +2
      For MG-42 in one article the rate of fire was indicated: 1000-1200 v / m; in others, the 1200-1300 v / m The rate of fire at the 1500 v / m had an experienced MG-45 machine gun
      1. Roll of wallpaper
        Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 18: 01
        0
        Quote: Nikolaevich I
        For MG-42 in some articles indicated the rate of fire: 1000-1200 in / m; in others, 1200-1300 v / m

        And both times are not correct. laughing At least according to the Soviet NSD of 1944.
      2. The comment was deleted.
  • uzer 13
    uzer 13 April 23 2016 09: 19
    +7
    Special asbestos gloves were issued to replace the MG barrel. The machine gunners were severely punished for the loss of a spare barrel.
    1. Starina_hank
      Starina_hank April 25 2016 18: 17
      0
      To change the trunk, DP issued cloth mittens.
  • vietnam7
    vietnam7 April 23 2016 09: 23
    +4
    Quote: Stas57
    no, this is in the wake of an article about SVT born.
    I propose to continue, to compare the weapons and tactics of the units of 43-45 years. The advancing and the defense changed places. According to the experience of the application, the weapons and composition have changed, it would be a pity if you don’t take it, thank you very much for the photo - another author on VO with a collection of photos on the topic, only respected Bongo is missing somewhere, I hope he writes a new series of articles with photos from google earth.
  • SokolfromRussia
    SokolfromRussia April 23 2016 09: 54
    +5
    Excellent text, thanks to the author!
    In general, the main task of the infantry department in the Fritz was to take a position for the machine gun that would force the enemy to retreat. That is, they, in fact, the whole squad was such a hefty machine gun calculation.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Roll of wallpaper
    Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 11: 41
    -8
    Quote: Stas57
    It is generally accepted that the MG-34 squad was "cooler" than the DP-27 squad.

    MG-34 with DP-27 cannot be compared at all, because these are completely different types of weapons. You can compare the "German" and "Soviet" (aka "American") approach to the armament of an infantry (rifle) squad. But these approaches are very different, and from this very different weapons.
    In theory, the Soviet-American approach, although there are some questions about the DP-27 / BAR, is more adequate than the German one. Even despite the high density of fire of the German squad, all the opponents of the Germans learned very quickly to knock out the machine gunners and neutralize the machine gun. But in practice, not a trace remained of the "Soviet approach", only the Americans could do normal army self-loading. And with mosinki, the Soviet branch was inferior to the German one in everything.
    As for the MG34, it is a "single German machine gun". Neither before WW2, nor after it, no one except the Germans used such a weapon. And even MG1 was no longer like that. Because in fact, the MG34 / 42 is a shortened heavy machine gun, which was sometimes put on a bipod for some reason. It was possible to shoot from such a miracle, but only in squares. Take the SGM, attach the butt to it and put it on the bipod. Stupid? Stupid. That's about what MG34 / 42 was.
    As for the DP-27 / BAR (Browning Automatic Rifle), then there is another extreme. These are not machine guns at all, these are heavy automatic rifles on bipods. Automatic Rifle - automatic rifle. Try to find more than 2 differences in the performance characteristics of the DP-27 and BAR, in addition to the store capacity. Only the British managed to make a normal relatively light machine gun with a relatively light barrel without the need to change it (Lewis). And so, without changing the barrel and forced cooling, the laws of physics are against.
    Here are the compartmental fire density data:
    German
    The beginning of the Second World War (only MG34, later at MG42 the rate of fire is about 50 rounds per minute less)
    In total - 545 rounds per minute (fire density) - up to 200 m
    455 rounds per minute (fire density) - further 200 m
    Soviet
    The beginning of the Second World War (SVT):
    In total - 395 rounds per minute (fire density) - up to 200 m
    215 rounds per minute (fire density) - further 200 m
    Since the fall of 1941 (three lines):
    In total - 325 rounds per minute (fire density) - up to 200 m
    145 rounds per minute (fire density) - further 200 m
    Quote: Stas57
    Rate of fire, rounds / min: 800-900 (combat 100)

    That's where the numbers 800-900 are called the rate of fire. And where 100, this is the rate of fire. Not combat, simple.
    In addition, 100-120 rounds per minute was the MG34 rate of fire without changing the barrel. And their handbrakes were supposed to 3 (change of 6-9 seconds). Therefore, the real MG34 rate of fire in the “handbrake” variant was 300-350 rounds per minute.
    Quote: Stas57
    Light machine gunners go on the attack

    Are there still wild ones? repeat
    1. Roll of wallpaper
      Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 11: 43
      -6
      Quote: Stas57
      The fact is that in the manual version, the MG machine gunner alone could shoot only with a magazine for 50 rounds

      Do not fantasize. At its rate of fire, everything was limited by barrel heating as stores were replaced.
      Quote: Stas57
      In the offensive, shooting was used in short bursts with a combat rate of 80-100 rounds per minute

      This is the MG42 without a barrel change. At MG34 it is 100-120 rounds per minute, at DP-27 it is always 70-80 rounds per minute.
      Quote: Stas57
      At the same time, in the DP, as in MG, a change in the overheated barrel was provided

      Only theoretically. Because this required a special key. In addition, it was proposed to remove the hot parts with bare hands. And also sometimes quite a long adjustment of sights was required.
      Quote: Stas57
      (replacing the barrel on the DP takes half a minute)

      In battle, try to remember where the special key is, turn the red-hot switch with your bare hands (we are talking about DP, not PDM), unpack the spare barrel, take out the red-hot barrel again with your bare hands, insert a new barrel, take out the new barrel form and set it sights. I want to see you keep within half a minute. And also I want to see where you put the shot red-hot barrel.
      Quote: Stas57
      MG 34 was seriously technically more difficult to care for, technologically more intensive in production and more expensive than DP-27

      Yes? How is this known? There was nothing particularly complicated in MG (especially cheap MG42). But the quality of this weapon (MG34 and MG42) was different.
      Quote: Stas57
      very modest technical "tabular" data

      Soviet NSD never suffered from modesty.
      1. Stas57
        April 23 2016 12: 36
        +6
        Do not fantasize. At its rate of fire, everything was limited by barrel heating as stores were replaced.

        no "fountains", trunks and ribbons wore the second number
        the machine gunner alone wore a trommel on 50 cartridges.
        that’s his whole tepp.
        Once again, he could give 1200, in 20 seconds, release all the cartridges.
        really, the combat tempo of 34go 100- less simply will not work, more- a lot of rounds


        Only theoretically. Because this required a special key. In addition, it was proposed to remove the hot parts with bare hands.


        Try to remember in battle where the special key is located,

        what is situated?!
        So did you see DP only in the movies? There is no special key there.


        MG 34 was seriously technically more difficult to care for,
        Yes? How is this known? Nothing too complicated at MG (especially the cheap MG42) did not have. But the quality of these weapons (MG34 and MG42) was different.

        further I see no reason to argue with you, "what will, what bondage, everything is one"

        I remembered, apparently it banned you in an article with SVT?))
        1. Roll of wallpaper
          Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 12: 53
          -5
          Quote: Stas57
          really, the combat tempo of 34go 100- less simply will not work, more- a lot of rounds

          The actual pace of MG34 in mobile mode was 100-120 w / m. And he was limited to the barrel. And it was possible to change the "store" more often.
          Quote: Stas57
          There is no special key there.

          There is. See photo. It is there that the soldier acts with this "non-existent key".
          Quote: Stas57
          then I see no reason to argue with you

          So I did not impose.
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. Stas57
          April 23 2016 16: 04
          +3
          Roll of wallpaper
          So I did not impose.







          I took the shutter, pressed the button and pulled out the barrel


          and you funny show me the key?
          that's the whole level of knowledge of the theorist and practice)))
          1. Roll of wallpaper
            Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 16: 27
            -2
            Quote: Stas57
            I took the shutter, pressed the button and pulled out the barrel

            The button must be pressed in the PDM, and not in the DR-27. I recommend that you study the materiel not according to the murders in the internet, but according to the documents.
            Quote: Stas57
            and you funny show me the key?

            Do you have eye problems? You do not see the key in the soldier’s hand in the picture?
            Quote: Stas57
            that's the whole level of knowledge of the theorist and practice)))

            You do not have enough imagination to understand that everything is not even hot there, but red-hot. Therefore, with your hands, as in a murder, nothing will be done:
            1. Burn meat on your palms to the bones.
            2. Metals expand when heated. And without a special key, you can’t get the nifig out of the receiver. In addition to a pension disability certificate, of course.
            So, Mr. Theorist, study. This is useful, speaking between us.
          2. Stas57
            April 23 2016 17: 47
            +4
            Roll of wallpaper

            The button must be pressed in the PDM, and not in the DR-27. I recommend that you study the materiel not according to the murders in the internet, but according to the documents.


            oooh, do you have a ban on youtube? there is no PDM!


            Do you have eye problems? You do not see the key in the soldier’s hand in the picture?

            Do you have a ban on YouTube? or eye problems
            people at you dismantle without using a key.


            You do not have enough imagination to understand that everything is not even hot there, but red-hot. Therefore, with your hands, as in a murder, nothing will be done:
            1. Burn meat on your palms to the bones.
            2. Metals expand when heated. And without a special key, you can’t get the nifig out of the receiver. In addition to a pension disability certificate, of course.
            So, Mr. Theorist, study. This is useful, speaking between us.

            Well, in general, it’s clear that you only know from books 27.
            Specially left quotes, so that everyone knows why you are once again banned
            1. Roll of wallpaper
              Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 19: 08
              -3
              Quote: Stas57
              Do you have a ban on YouTube?

              Not even too lazy, and looked Murzik in YouTube. Everything is as I wrote. There is no button in the DP-27 by itself; you need to turn the contactor head.
              In addition, everything that I wrote about the red-hot barrel and the special key is true.
              There is a category of individuals who do not know how to admit their mistakes. This one is one of them. Nothing to him is a decree, not even the NSD (official document). It seems to me that this disorder is some kind of mental. But this is not for me, this is for the doctor. And I am not a doctor, such an "opponent" is no longer interesting to me.
              1. super.ufu
                super.ufu April 23 2016 20: 32
                +2
                Quote: Wallpaper Roll
                Not even too lazy, and looked Murzik in YouTube. Everything is as I wrote. There is no button in the DP-27 by itself; you need to turn the contactor head.

                This is a trunk lock button.
                First, the shutter is retracted and fixed, then the closure is pressed (turned on earlier versions), then the barrel is rotated.
                Все.
                There he is, a black pumpkin on a box.
                In the upper video, they are crushing her, and in the lower video.


                What is the argument?
                p / s. I never used the key, I took the hot trunk with my quilted sleeve. I forget to carry the kitchen glove with me. But he, the trunk and not much overheating from the disk.
                1. Roll of wallpaper
                  Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 20: 58
                  +1
                  Quote: super.ufu
                  then the closure is pressed (turned on earlier versions)

                  Contactor head. I have written so.
                  Quote: super.ufu
                  I never used the key, I took the hot trunk with my quilted sleeve

                  So that the barrel could be taken with a quilted sleeve, it had to be cooled beforehand. Otherwise, your quilted jacket will burn.
                  For this, the Germans included an asbestos jacket. So the sleeve quilted jackets will not work. And with just one key, it also won’t work, because then the barrel must be removed from the receiver (it is hot, expanded, the channel under the barrel becomes smaller; the barrel is hot, expanded, its diameter has become a little larger), and there is no special handle for this, you can only grab the trunk.
                  Quote: super.ufu
                  But he, the trunk and not much overheating from the disk.

                  If it is not very hot, then there is no need to change it. And if it is very hot, then it is not easy and not fast.
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                  2. kashtak
                    kashtak April 23 2016 21: 09
                    +1
                    Quote: Wallpaper Roll
                    If it is not very hot, then there is no need to change it. And if it is very hot, then it is not easy and not fast.

                    according to the experience of the Second World War on light machine guns abandoned interchangeable trunks. wearable BK can be released from one.
                    1. Roll of wallpaper
                      Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 21: 16
                      0
                      Quote: kashtak
                      according to the experience of the Second World War on machine guns abandoned interchangeable trunks

                      Yes, this was done everywhere, including the captured MG. Even in the Soviet NSD on MG42 release 1944. the ability to change trunks in battle is not provided at all.
                      But there were a lot of "experts" here who argue that changing the barrel on the DP was a simple and widely accepted measure, just like on the MG.
                      I wrote from the very beginning, there were spare trunks, but "in the train".
                    2. The comment was deleted.
                    3. SuperFly
                      SuperFly April 24 2016 17: 43
                      0
                      And therefore, in Afghanistan, even AK were carried 2 pieces each and while fired from one, the second was poked into the sand with a barrel.
                    4. SuperFly
                      SuperFly April 24 2016 17: 43
                      0
                      And therefore, in Afghanistan, even AK were carried 2 pieces each and while fired from one, the second was poked into the sand with a barrel.
                    5. SuperFly
                      SuperFly April 24 2016 17: 47
                      0
                      Would be quick-change then "according to the experience of the Great Patriotic War" would carry these trunks in a train.
                2. The comment was deleted.
    2. Stas57
      April 23 2016 12: 16
      +1
      MG-34 with DP-27 cannot be compared at all, because these are completely different types of weapons. You can compare the "German" and "Soviet" (aka "American") approach to the armament of an infantry (rifle) squad. But these approaches are very different, and from this very different weapons.

      I quote
      It is commonly believed that branch with MG-34 was "cooler" with the DP-27
      therefore, I compared such a unit as separation.

      In addition, 100-120 rounds per minute was the MG34 rate of fire without changing the barrel. And their handbrakes were supposed to 3 (change 6-9 sec). Therefore, the real rate of fire of the MG34 in the “handbrake” variant was 300-350 rounds per minute.

      I would call it so - "peak"
      he could give such a rate of fire, but at the same time:
      -Significantly reduced wearable ammunition
      -had a dubious result
      - would cease firing on the trunk notice.
      Here are the compartmental fire density data:


      You see what’s the matter, it's all wrong and wrong at the same time.
      but the separation with SVT + DP could create a greater density even with the loss of DP (for a while)
      With the loss of MG, the German branch lost its offensive capabilities almost in a cavity.


      regarding comparison with the American-Amer / Rus and Amer / German, I completely give you this chance)
      1. Roll of wallpaper
        Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 12: 34
        -2
        Quote: Stas57
        therefore, I compared such a unit as separation.

        So I kind of wrote about it. Those. nowhere is it written something like "the author is in vain comparing MG and DP".
        Quote: Stas57
        significantly reduced wearable ammunition

        In the mobile state, the rate of fire of the "handbrakes" was 80-100 (MG42) and 100-120 (MG34) rounds per minute. In a stationary state, the wearable stock did not matter. And the rate of fire was 3 times higher.
        Quote: Stas57
        With the loss of MG, the German branch lost its offensive capabilities almost in a cavity.

        Of course. Therefore, in my very first comment on this article, I wrote that the Soviet-American approach to arming the infantry (rifle) squad (heavy automatic rifles + self-loading) looks preferable to the German approach (trimmed machine gunners in different forms + a mediocre bolt). Another thing is that the USSR failed self-loading, and as a result it turned out in practice: heavy automatic rifles + a very unimportant bolt. And that was another matter.
        But there was also the coolest British approach. That's who actually was the best armed. And without any self-exercises.
        1. Stas57
          April 23 2016 12: 46
          +2
          In the mobile state, the rate of fire of the "handbrakes" was 80-100 (MG42) and 100-120 (MG34) rounds per minute. In a stationary state, the wearable stock did not matter. And the rate of fire was 3 times higher.

          Well, I wrote 100, what do you prove?

          But there was also the coolest British approach. That's who actually was the best armed. And without any self-exercises.

          I said both here and in the article with SVT- write)
          1. Roll of wallpaper
            Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 12: 57
            -3
            Quote: Stas57
            Well, I wrote 100, what do you prove?

            For some reason, you have compared the rate of fire in stationary mode with "wearable ammunition". This is what you were told, in the stationary mode there was no "wearable ammunition".
            Quote: Stas57
            I said both here and in the article with SVT- write)

            Do you want to make me a goat? Will not work. Me on such snide ones as you ... Further, you will guess. May be.
          2. The comment was deleted.
  • La-5
    La-5 April 23 2016 12: 04
    -6
    The article is defiantly written, minus one.
  • Cartalon
    Cartalon April 23 2016 12: 31
    +2
    The article is interesting, but these are spherical squads in a vacuum, especially since the Red Army could have such a squad only in the first weeks of the war.
    1. Stas57
      April 23 2016 13: 01
      +5
      Quote: Cartalon
      The article is interesting, but these are spherical compartments in a vacuum,

      The rifle division is the minimum tactical unit and is capable of acting independently.
      The machine gun is not capable.
      A regiment, a company, a platoon are capable, but they have many additional factors that do not allow us to understand the specific types of weapons in battle.
      two opposing squads in a battle are not a vacuum situation.
      Moreover, the Red Army could have such a squad only in the first weeks of the war.

      days, hours, minutes .....
  • nnz226
    nnz226 April 23 2016 12: 37
    -2
    Soviet infantry with SVT? Very quickly, except for the marines, the entire infantry of the Red Army (with 4 classes of education) switched to "mosinki"! so the "ideal department" of the Red Army is an isolated case!
    1. Roll of wallpaper
      Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 12: 43
      -2
      Quote: nnz226
      Very quickly, except for the marines, the entire infantry of the Red Army (with 4 classes of education) switched to "mosinki"!

      Did you read it on the internet? Yes, there is a lot of garbage. Not everything written should be trusted.
  • Basalaev
    Basalaev April 23 2016 13: 02
    +2
    JV Stalin did everything technically to make the rifle department of the Red Army stronger than Art. branch of the Wehrmacht. Only the leadership of the Red Army was unable to use it. And the technical superiority of the Red Army "screwed up" at the beginning of the war ... This is not how the troops were taught to fight - a long topic ...
    1. Forever so
      Forever so April 23 2016 14: 28
      -3
      I do not agree a bit. Like many, I try to get to the bottom of the reasons for such an instant defeat of the Red Army in the first months of the war. And I came across such an Old that it turns out the wrong troops were taught. Western districts were composed of natives of these places, only in 1939 passed into the hands of the USSR. In the same Baltic region, local troops simply changed into a new uniform and that’s all. So the locals simply stupidly surrendered, at the same time destroying those who did not want to. Well, then, the more persistent simply mixed with the ground aviation, artillery and tanks. So the face was just a mass surrender.
      1. Stas57
        April 23 2016 15: 00
        +1
        And I came across such an Old that it turns out the wrong troops were taught. The western districts were made up of natives of these places, only in the 1939 year passing by the arm of the USSR. In the same Baltic region, local troops simply changed into a new uniform and that’s all.

        this is not so, in the new territories there was no draft before the war
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA April 25 2016 14: 24
          +1
          Quote: Stas57
          this is not so, in the new territories there was no draft before the war

          I wonder where did the 17 MK ZOVO get 50% of draftees from with the formation of less than 4 classes (read, write, know a little math)?
          Recruitment by rank and file is mainly due to the March draft of recruits (70-90%). Parts are 100% complete with recruits.
          The quality of replenishment by education is up to 50% with education not higher than 4 classes.
          The presence of a large number of nationalities that are poorly fluent and completely fluent in Russian will make it difficult
          1. Stas57
            April 25 2016 15: 41
            0
            Quote: Alexey RA
            I wonder where did the 17 MK ZOVO get 50% of draftees from with the formation of less than 4 classes (read, write, know a little math)?

            Yes, we read Ulanova_0)

            oh, a lack of knowledge of Russian could be provided by conscripts from the depths of the country.
            as far as I remember, neither in the fall of 39 nor 40 of large-scale conscription in the Red Army from new territories was carried out.

            . On November 6, November 1940, the People’s Commissar of Defense issued a directive to register from January 5 to February 15 on February 1941 the registration camps for citizens of 1922 year of birth, people with completed secondary education, and students of 10-x classes of secondary schools and graduation courses of technical schools of 1923 year birth unassigned senior citizens and persons 1920 — 1921 years of birth in Western Ukraine and Western Belarus. The registration in the Baltic states, Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina was to be carried out later
            RGVA. F.9. Op. 29. D.547. L.419 — 429.


            Meltiukhov, Mikhail Ivanovich
            Missed chance of Stalin. Soviet Union and the struggle for Europe: 1939-1941
            thus they were only attributed to the call of 41
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA April 25 2016 17: 59
              0
              Quote: Stas57
              Yes, we read Ulanova_0)

              I didn’t doubt your knowledge incredibly scandalous work of the herehistorians-defilers Andreas and Dimitros "Is faith strong? Where did the children of the God-Emperor disappear?". smile
              Quote: Stas57
              oh, a lack of knowledge of Russian could be provided by conscripts from the depths of the country.
              as far as I remember, neither in the fall of 39 nor 40 of large-scale conscription in the Red Army from new territories was carried out.

              Thank. I somehow forgot about such a source as Meltiukhov.
              But 50% of illiterate conscripts for elite BTVs are strong. However, if we recall the problems of Katukov with corporal ...
              Among the corporals sent: 211 non-Russian nationality poorly speaking the Russian language ... illiterate 7 people., illiterate 70 people ... unfit for military service 20 people. All the corporals sent are now being used as junior officers, but they are of little use. ordinary soldiers of the 1940 draft are better prepared than they are today
              1. Stas57
                April 25 2016 19: 49
                +1
                However, if we recall the problems of Katukov with corporal ...

                yeah, it was him.
                however, it is worthwhile to understand that the army was expanding and that everyone wanted to have 10 classmates: the fleet, and air, and art and railway, and where to get so many of them ..
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA April 25 2016 14: 16
      0
      Quote: Basalaev
      I.V. Stalin technically did everything so that the rifle division of the Red Army was stronger than Art. branches of the Wehrmacht. Only here the leadership of the Red Army failed to use it.

      Sumptuously. Now tell me - what should the leadership of the Red Army do, if even in the elite armored vehicles 2/3 of recruits have less than 7 classes of education? If the most competent infantry sergeants were transferred to the Air Force and BTV - and this against the background of a threefold increase in the number of cadre rifle units. If the shortage of sergeants and foremen is 30-50%. If the level of training of junior commanders from the 30s is such that they teach replenishment purely mechanically, without understanding the meaning (for example, training in observation at the NP - without binoculars, or training in shooting from the "maxim" - on a crooked machine gun). If the overwhelming majority of units in the reunited territories do not have barracks, training grounds and classrooms.
      1. yehat
        yehat April 25 2016 14: 47
        0
        do not forget that propaganda was doing its job, and the civil war was not so long ago.
        many knew how to use the Mosin rifle. True, there was no military training at all,
        and, importantly, to a significant degree the command of the Red Army and especially the junior officers did not adopt the experience of the trench war of the WWI, which led to very large unjustified losses of infantry at the beginning of the war. How many people put on the classics a clean field + machine gun + cheers! request
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA April 25 2016 18: 24
          0
          Quote: yehat
          do not forget that propaganda was doing its job, and the civil war was not so long ago.
          many knew how to use the Mosin rifle.

          The Civil War is not a real war, because it was a war without artillery, without aviation, without tanks, without mortars. Without all this, what is this serious war? It was a special war, not modern. We were poorly armed, poorly dressed, poorly fed, but still we defeated the enemy, who had much more weapons, who was much better armed, because here the spirit mainly played a role.
          So, what prevented our commanding assembly from waging a war in Finland in a new way, not in the type of civil war, but in a new way? In my opinion, the cult of tradition and experience of the civil war interfered. As our command structure is regarded: have you participated in the civil war? No, I did not participate. Go away. Did he participate? Participated. Give him here, he has a lot of experience and more.
          I must say, of course, the experience of the civil war is very valuable, the traditions of the civil war are also valuable, but they are completely insufficient. This is precisely the cult of the tradition and experience of the civil war that must be put to an end, and it prevented our command personnel from immediately reorganizing themselves in a new way, on the tracks of modern war.

          Quote: yehat
          True, there was no military training at all,
          and, importantly, to a significant degree the command of the Red Army and especially the junior officers did not adopt the experience of the trench war of the WWI, which led to very large unjustified losses of infantry at the beginning of the war.

          Oh-ho-ho ... even the white officers didn’t take over the experience of the trench war. Only a year has passed since the collapse of the Empire’s army - and both sides began to drive chains with rifles on machine guns and ride open fire - whoever runs first. At first the Reds ran.
          Quote: yehat
          How many people put on the classics a clean field + machine gun + cheers!

          There was another extreme - "battalion commanders have absolutely no use of their available weapons and request corps calibers for enemy infantry groups and even for individual soldiers". The classic case is Stalingrad, when the battalion commander needed the advice of a seconded officer of the General Staff, so that (instead of requesting howitzers to fire at a machine-gun point), press down its crew with harassing Maxim fire and send an assault group (machine gunners with grenades) bypassing them.
  • Ivan Tartugai
    Ivan Tartugai April 23 2016 14: 24
    +1
    Quote from the article:
    In conclusion, a couple of photos of the use of trophies by opponents.


    In the photo, the Wehrmacht soldiers are well equipped, and armed not only with our PD, but also with our famous “three-rulers”. At least the fighter on the left hand of the squad leader (third from the viewer) is in our hands exactly our "three-line".
    1. zadorin1974
      zadorin1974 April 23 2016 17: 46
      +2
      In the photo everything is with Soviet weapons. Most likely it is either the Baltic states or our lads. It’s bad that the chevrons are not visible, it would be possible to say exactly what kind of unit. The security battalions were armed just from the captured warehouses of the Red Army.
  • Forever so
    Forever so April 23 2016 14: 28
    +1
    Thanks to the author, very interesting.
  • Volga Cossack
    Volga Cossack April 23 2016 15: 04
    -3
    article average, theory and no more ........ but put a plus, everything is already commented out)))))
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR April 23 2016 16: 09
    -3
    Article + is unambiguous for comparing a spherical horse in the vacuum of space. Firstly, the staff of the RKKA branch that is given in the article existed during the war, but even more fucking it did not exist. Maximum a month, well, at most two. And then the Mosin rifle + PPSh + DP. And over there the German state with Mauser, MG-34/42 and MP-38/40 was stable until the end of the Second World War. Secondly, why, in principle, was it necessary to compare departments? The minimum unit to complete the mission was a company and even a battalion, but not a squad. But at the battalion level, the Red Army also has a separate company with Maxim machine guns (which Hans does not have), and a mortar company with 120mm mortars (which still had to be "communed" as a blueprint for the fascists), and even two 45mm cannons (compare on the battalion level with nothing). The meaning of these "single" and "manual", if the lion's share of the work, as then and today, will be done by mortar and artillery batteries. Which 400m, which "last 200m"? Everything has long been calculated by the same E. Middeldorf (he worked as an assistant for generalizing tactical experience in the General Staff of the German Ground Forces) in his work "The Russian Campaign: Tactics and Armament".
    1. super.ufu
      super.ufu April 23 2016 16: 21
      +2
      In fact, more than a million people, for at least 3 summer months, this is a lot.
    2. Stas57
      April 23 2016 16: 40
      +3
      The minimum unit to complete the mission was a company and even a battalion, but not a squad. But at the battalion level, the Red Army also has a separate company with Maxim machine guns (which Hans does not have), and a mortar company with 120mm mortars (which still had to be "communed" as a blueprint for the fascists), and even two 45mm cannons (compare on the battalion level with nothing). The meaning of these "single" and "manual", if the lion's share of the work, as then and today, will be done by mortar and artillery batteries. Which 400m, which "last 200m"?

      sighing ....

      Attack by a firing point firing point

      The platoon lay down and began to dig in. The platoon commander called me to him with a signal and set the task for my unit: to destroy the enemy machine gun, which interferes with the advance of the company. At that moment, the squad consisted of seven soldiers armed with carbines and one light machine gun.
      Briefly explaining the received task to the department, I ordered:
      - In a way, follow me, forward!
      Having reached the hollow, we bent over and ran into the bush. Until the enemy machine gun was now about 100 meters.
      To accomplish this task, I decided: to divert the fire of a heavy machine gun, go around it from two sides and destroy it. The task of distracting enemy fire on themselves was carried out by light machine gunners. At my command, the machine gunners opened fire in short bursts at the enemy’s heavy machine gun. At the same time, both bypass groups began to operate. The left group was supposed to crawl forward to the machine gun on the left and throw it with grenades, and I myself crawled with two fighters bypassing the right side.
      When my group was left 40 – 50 meters from the enemy machine gun, our light machine gun was silent. As it turned out later, both calculation numbers were injured. But the machine gunners have already completed their task, as they managed to divert the enemy machine gun fire and thereby allowed [50] our groups to get close to it without loss. During this time, our left group managed to get around the enemy machine gun. After 3 – 4 minutes, we threw grenades at the calculation of the German machine gun and attacked it. Bursting into the position of a heavy machine gun, we saw two dead German machine gunners, and the third with his hands raised went towards us. The machine gun was serviceable, with enough ammunition with it. Since our light machine gun was temporarily out of service due to wounded numbers, and the enemy started retreating, I quickly turned the captured machine gun and opened fire from it at the retreating Germans who were trying to hide in the forest west of the village of Duke.
      The company rushed into the village and took possession of it.
      Conclusion. Attacking and destroying an enemy firing point by a rifle squad is a difficult and responsible task. Its implementation in the above example was successful thanks to the correct decision of the squad leader, who applied the maneuver to cover the enemy firing point, and the swift action of the entire squad.
      In addition, this example shows how important it is to know the enemy’s weapons and be able to use them in time.

      Actions of the rifle squad in battle (combat examples). - M .: Military Publishing House of the USSR Ministry of Internal Affairs, 1949.
    3. Roll of wallpaper
      Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 16: 57
      -2
      Quote: DesToeR
      But at the battalion level, the Red Army has a separate company with Maxim's machine guns (which the Hans do not have)

      At the beginning of the Second World War, the rifle company consisted of 3 rifle and one machine-gun platoon (2 easel machine guns). Those. easel machine guns were also at the company level. In August 1941 they were removed from there.
      In addition, MG34 on machines much cooler than Maximok will be. Just nothing to compare. Actually, the only thing that the Germans from the rifleman had more or less were easel machine guns. And there were about the same as Maximok in the Red Army.
      Quote: DesToeR
      The minimum unit for the task was a company and even a battalion, but not a detachment

      What is the task? Choose what is more conveniently measured and measured.
    4. faiver
      faiver April 24 2016 13: 49
      +1
      what for nonsense? - Each Wehrmacht battalion consists of a battalion headquarters and a communications platoon, three rifle companies with 12 light machine guns, three light mortars and 3 anti-tank guns, one machine gun company with 12 heavy machine guns and 6 mortars.
    5. yehat
      yehat April 25 2016 14: 59
      -2
      meaning in the quantity of infantry and in quality! Firstly, the Wehrmacht increased the density of machine guns by almost 45 times by the year 4. Previously, the squad did not always have a machine gun or anti-tank rifle, but by the end of the war the squad often had 0-1 easel, 1-2 light machine guns, 2-4 assault rifles + Fausts + which is simpler + SVT40 or Stg-44. Such a density of weapons made it possible to stay without the support of artillery against a superior number of infantry. Our troops advanced successfully only because they had learned and constantly helped the infantry with tanks, artillery, and mortars. The aforementioned armed squad was usually opposed by a battle group from a squad of three infantry + a tank or a cannon, and often a mortar also helped.
  • iouris
    iouris April 23 2016 16: 36
    +2
    Photos are very eloquent. I think that the article is interesting, but it is more relevant to compare two general approaches to combat effectiveness (German and Soviet) and to look at a concrete example what came of it.
  • Hauptam
    Hauptam April 23 2016 17: 02
    -1
    What a comparison of horseradish and tram handle. Arm at least the Pechenegs and the M240, a little sense. If untrained l / s they are all corpses in 10 minutes. battlefield. The Wehrmacht conquered the floor of Europe has vast combat experience and training experience l / s, iron discipline and excellent supply. And most importantly, battle tactics worked out to the smallest detail. We achieved this by the middle of 1943, at a price not small, and we won because the Russian soldier could not be defeated in principle. People are fighting, not weapons, and if they have motivation, then hold on. Example is our Great VICTORY !!! Comparison, to put it mildly, not correct, theoretical.
    1. yehat
      yehat April 25 2016 15: 06
      0
      We achieved this only at the end of the 43rd - the middle of the 44th. In the middle of 43 it was still very far ... And the prerequisites for this were received in Rzhev and Stalingrad on the 42nd, when the Germans were exhausted and there was time for preparation, when they realized how far they were from the desired level.
      This can be clearly seen on how the tactics of using IS tanks changed from 43 to 44 years.
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR April 23 2016 17: 15
    +1
    Quote: Stas57
    sighing ....

    Why sigh? I can tell you such memories about a single soldier. What's the point? In PU there is such a thing as a defense line or an offensive line for a certain unit. If I am not mistaken, then these standards start from a company and higher.
    Quote: Stas57
    The company rushed into the village and took possession of it.
    And here is the confirmation of my words in your example. ROTA, but not a branch. The department was assigned one of the tactical tasks in the general plan of the company offensive. In addition, battalion forces and regimental artillery and divisional, and even corps artillery, could support the action of this company, and therefore the divisions as well! Next, where in your example is the squad fight? I see a battle between an incomplete Soviet squad and one machine-gun crew of the Germans. And it is not a problem to find examples of how one fighter, yes, with an ATGM, knocked out a Panther tank (for which he was awarded). In fact, the staff of the department of the Red Army, which you took for comparison, was practically not maintained anywhere (for a hundred reasons) even BEFORE the beginning of the Second World War. Moreover, the SVT rifle in the Second World War quickly gave way to the Mosin rifle in the offices, and by the end of the summer of 1941. was more exotic than a regular rifle of rifle divisions. The main reason for this is not at all the complexity or capriciousness of the SVT, but the fact that this self-loading in the gross series cost as DP. The main advantage of Soviet rifle units was not in the presence of self-loading rifles and handy light machine guns, but in the presence of heavy weapons (heavy machine guns, large-caliber mortars and 45mm cannons) at the battalion level.
    1. Stas57
      April 23 2016 17: 38
      +3
      Why sigh?
      then


      The meaning of these "single" and "manual", if the lion's share of the work, as then and today, will be done by mortar and artillery batteries.

      with the Germans, the whole war in art was shot much higher, in this book the main tasks were solved precisely by separation, without the use of amplification.
      or do you think both an offensive and support were given by 3 BC?

      I see the battle of an incomplete Soviet branch with one machine gun calculation of the Germans

      the Germans do not have just a calculation; the Germans have a machine gun - the basis of the squad.

      And here is the confirmation of my words in your example. ROTA, but not a branch
      The division was assigned one of the tactical tasks in the general plan of the offensive of the company. In addition, the action of this company, and hence the squad, including, could support the battalion forces and regimental artillery and divisional, and even corps!

      How does the text indicate that the company assisted?
      explain?
      without could not.
      I see that there was no use of artillery and mortars.



      yes with an ATGM, knocking out a tank "Panther" is not a problem (for which he was awarded)

      and the panther is pure of him, his one? and it really is, not in the award ?.

      In fact, the staff of the Red Army branch that you took for comparison was practically not maintained anywhere (for a hundred reasons) BEFORE the start of the Second World War.


      are you able to give a diagram with links to the absence of CBT in the SP, or "think so"?

      The main advantage of the Soviet rifle divisions was not the presence of self-loading rifles and convenient light machine guns, but in the presence of heavy weapons (machine guns, large-caliber mortars and 45mm guns) at the battalion level.

      in any infantry division there were artillery and machine guns and mortars.
      however, this in no way abolished the fact that the software had to act without them for many reasons.
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR April 23 2016 19: 07
    -1
    Quote: Stas57
    Germans have a much higher arte war

    Are you serious? and what is "shot"?
    Quote: Stas57
    or do you think both an offensive and support were given by 3 BC?

    Have you read my two posts carefully? The fact of the matter is that nobody gave anything to the DEPARTMENT. Nobody even considered him (the branch) as a INDEPENDENT battle unit.
    Quote: Stas57
    How does the text indicate that the company assisted?

    And where then have 7 Germans gone? To those two corpses and one prisoner.
    Quote: Stas57
    Conclusion. Attacking and destroying an enemy firing point by a rifle squad is a difficult and responsible task.
    A detachment with a firing point fought - as part of a machine gun and three crew members.

    Quote: Stas57
    are you able to give a diagram with links to the absence of CBT in the SP, or "think so"?

    Do you carefully read what they write to you? I did not claim that there was no SVT in the rifle divisions. Are you able to name at least one of more than two hundred divisions of the Red Army on June 22, 1941, where was the standard set for SVT? Do not work you will not find. Then name such a division at the end of August 1941, after the losses of the so-called. "summer battle". After all, they fought with the "typical" department of the Wehrmacht in 1942, and in the 43rd and beyond. If you really wanted to give a real comparison, you would choose the average department in the Red Army at the beginning of the war, where there are 1 (one), maximum 3 (three) SVT rifles. And if you take such an average compartment for the summer of 1943, then you won't see any self-loading there.
    Quote: Stas57
    in any infantry division there were artillery and machine guns and mortars.
    however, this in no way abolished the fact that the software had to act without them for many reasons.

    There is a division, but at the battalion level, the Germans have nothing but a shit. You still did not understand that the software could not operate with or without something. The infantry squad itself did not function independently; it was part of the company, along with other battalion weapon systems. And the fact that 120mm mortars could be thrashed in this village, so do not go to a fortuneteller. Father helped.
    1. Stas57
      April 23 2016 19: 46
      -1
      Have you read my two posts carefully? The fact of the matter is that nobody gave anything to the DEPARTMENT. Nobody even considered him (the branch) as a INDEPENDENT battle unit.

      and so no one gave art to him, but the solution of independent tasks was assigned to him?
      the department performs the task without the support of artillery and mortars.
      Well, where is the contradiction with my text above?


      And where then have 7 Germans gone? To those two corpses and one prisoner.

      who do you think?
      the enemy began to retreat, I quickly turned the captured machine gun and opened fire from it at the retreating Germans who were trying to hide in the forest

      so, with support you have no answer, approx.
      Now tell me, to whom do German machine gunners belong?
      by themselves came to the forefront? Or is it a special German pulp?


      Do you carefully read what they write to you? I did not claim that there was no SVT in the rifle divisions.

      What did you say?
      In fact, the staff of the Red Army branch that you took for comparison was practically not maintained anywhere (for a hundred reasons) BEFORE the start of the Second World War.

      Well, prove that you couldn’t stand it- it’s easier for me, I have 1.5 million, I have staff.
      but the fact that they were instead of being in their place at the warehouse is that you prove to me.

      And are you able to name at least one of more than two hundred divisions of the Red Army on 22 on June 1941 where there was a full-time SVT kit? Do not work, you will not find.

      see above, there is staff, there is presence in the troops, deny that they were not there.
      No sampling - sorry.


      Then name such a division at the end of August 1941, after the losses of the so-called. "summer battle".

      why, for the confirmation of my thesis, the 2x summer months and regular SVTshny divisions will be quite enough for me.
      and there, I notice a large mass of people participated.

      After all, they fought with the "typical" department of the Wehrmacht in 1942, and in the 43rd and beyond. If you really wanted to give a real comparison, you would choose the average department in the Red Army at the beginning of the war, where there are 1 (one), maximum 3 (three) SVT rifles. And if you take such an average compartment for the summer of 1943, then you won't see any self-loading there.

      Well write such a comparison, who does not give you? I just wanted to show, the personnel army of the summer of 41 was quite well provided for, and SVT and DP and their opponents, did this happen? had, not a few? not single.
      sorry all.

      The infantry squad itself did not function independently; it was part of the company, along with other battalion weapon systems

      and as a result, at least the Eastern or Soviet-German front)

      Well, what are you telling me? For my search practice, I can give you more than a dozen examples when the department performs independent tasks of a different level — breaking, capturing, reconnaissance and various types of combat, as part of anything, even to the regiment, only in as a result, this regiment does not hold the site according to the charter, and advances without artifact, and defends itself with scattered squads without any support.
      are you trying to prove to me here that if the squad as part of a platoon, company, battalion is all the fire of the higher ones concentrated in his help? not?
      Well, where is the contradiction with my text above?
    2. yehat
      yehat April 25 2016 15: 10
      -3
      Quote: DesToeR

      Are you serious? and what is "shot"?

      World of Tanks slang and knowledge level is the same
      1. Stas57
        April 25 2016 16: 09
        +1
        in general it is from shooting sports. the term has this meaning - the number of shots fired over the entire period of operation of the weapon.
        but you understand the tanks, approx.
        1. yehat
          yehat April 25 2016 17: 09
          -3
          what is more clear to me, I will decide for myself, and you, the troll, will advise you to say only what is understandable to others. Or start talking about the difference in the meaning of the word onion ??? If you use slang, then it would be polite to mention this. But they didn’t mention it - then there’s nothing to blame that they didn’t understand what you meant.
          1. Stas57
            April 25 2016 17: 51
            +1
            Quote: yehat
            what is more clear to me, I will decide for myself, and you, the troll, will advise you to say only what is understandable to others. Or start talking about the difference in the meaning of the word onion ??? If you use slang, then it would be polite to mention this. But they didn’t mention it - then there’s nothing to blame that they didn’t understand what you meant.

            Yes, it makes no difference to me that you confused it there with tanks.
            play on
            1. yehat
              yehat April 26 2016 15: 23
              -2
              what nafig games? what nonsense are you talking about
              1. Stas57
                April 26 2016 15: 37
                +1
                Quote: yehat
                what nafig games? what nonsense are you talking about

                true?

                Are you serious? and what is "shot"?

                slang out World of Tanks and the level of knowledge is the same

                right head forgot what the left said?
                1. yehat
                  yehat April 27 2016 11: 39
                  0
                  it all started with the assumption that it was you who cut into tanks.
                  but for some reason you immediately turned the arrows on me
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR April 23 2016 19: 24
    0
    Quote: Wallpaper Roll
    What is the task? Choose what is more conveniently measured and measured.

    Your first post on this site with which I agree (400m and "33m for PCA" is not even a chip, but a BRAND). I would compare the battalions, which is what the general I named above was actually doing for the German officers.
    1. Roll of wallpaper
      Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 19: 47
      -1
      Quote: DesToeR
      400м

      400 m is the physiological ability of the eye to aim at an open sight. In fact, the thing is quite well-known to everyone who is interested in external ballistics.
      Quote: DesToeR
      "33m for PCA

      Not 33, but 35 m. And also everything is elementary. Drive the sources into the calculator (such a special program) and see where the graph intersects with the efficiency curve. At the PPSh it intersects at 35 m. As a consolation, at the MP40 (and Stan) it intersects at 60 m, with the norm for the PP at 100 m. So, it’s also UG. Everything is simple, really.
      And if somewhere and someone with knowledge is not very good, then it's not my fault.
      Nor am I to blame for the fact that earlier at school they only said "the right things." About the "best weapon in the world", which caused bewilderment and a bunch of questions like "Then how is it ...?"
      And the fact that in the USSR with wound ballistics the first progress was noticeable only in the mid-70s of the last century (in Europe and even in Japan at the latest, in the late 40s), it’s not my fault either.
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR April 23 2016 20: 55
    +2
    Quote: Wallpaper Roll
    400 m is the physiological ability of the eye to aim at an open sight.

    Well, yes, physiological in a cozy training ground with a pulse of 60 beats per second, and even from the stop. Well, no one is shooting at you yet - there is nothing to worry about.
    Quote: Wallpaper Roll
    And the fact that in the USSR with wound ballistics the first progress was noticeable only in the mid-70s of the last century (in Europe and even in Japan at the latest, in the late 40s), it’s not my fault either.

    Wound ballistics is primarily of interest to hunters to "dump" game with one shot, and not to trail 15 km after a wounded animal. The military, first of all, are interested in the probability of defeat in a battle, when a fighter has a pulse of 120 beats per second and adrenaline drips from the end, and the time for aiming is minimal. Plus, the soldiers also run with full gear (from 15 to 30kg), and shoot in motion or from short stops, in most cases from unstable positions. And here's how to "pick" 400m? No way. According to statistics (Israeli), if a wounded soldier within the next 10 minutes. after being wounded (no matter where) not to provide medical care, he, with a high degree of probability, will die from blood loss. Those. Why "blame" on the spot from a three-line rifle weighing 4kg with dubious chances of hitting? It is enough just to wound with a small-caliber bullet from a compact semi-plastic machine gun.
    1. Roll of wallpaper
      Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 22: 07
      0
      Quote: DesToeR
      in a cozy training ground with a pulse of 60 beats per second, and even from the stop

      I don’t know, nothing is written about the range and pulse in the NSD.
      Quote: DesToeR
      Wound ballistics is primarily of interest to hunters to "dump" game with one shot, and not to trail 15 km after a wounded animal.

      Those. the military do not want to "dump the game with one shot"? Apparently they want to get a pill in the head?
      Quote: DesToeR
      interested in the probability of defeat

      The military, not the athletes. Their simple defeat does not interest the leaf with the black kruglyash. They are interested in a qualitative defeat, i.e. once and for all.
      Quote: DesToeR
      And here's how to "pick" 400m? No way.

      Do not fantasize. See the photo of their tamper trilinear.
      Quote: DesToeR
      if the wounded soldier within the next 10min. after the injury (no matter where), do not provide medical care, he, with a high degree of probability, will die from blood loss.

      Only if this soldier is unfortunate. So this and the nail can easily run into. And a normal fighter with a not very serious injury is quite capable of taking care of himself. At first.
      Quote: DesToeR
      It is enough just to injure a small-caliber bullet from a compact semi-plastic machine.

      You in vain neglect the small-caliber cartridges with the new generation bullets. They knock down cleaner than the classic intermediate (Soviet).
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR April 23 2016 21: 50
    -2
    Quote: Stas57
    and so no one gave art to him, but the solution of independent tasks was assigned to him?

    Well, an order is given to an individual soldier to perform "independent tasks", why can't you compare the Red Army shooter and the Wehrmacht shooter? It's stupid, isn't it? Which shooter? At what stage of the war? Yes, even in which troops and that is the question. Yes, because not units are fighting, but units, where software is a brick, but not a design. The order to complete the task does not come to the department, but at least to the company. You don’t realize that you are comparing the strength and skill of boxers by the size of the fist, and not at least by the length of the arm. The brain gives the order to strike to the hand, but not to the fist. So the point is to compare fists ???
    Quote: Stas57
    the enemy began to retreat, I quickly turned the captured machine gun and opened fire from it at the retreating Germans who were trying to hide in the forest

    The enemy in the squad, platoon, company, battalion began to withdraw ??? What are you trying to prove with this episode? I tell you about tomatoes, and you tell me about cucumbers. Yes, the Russians could vaasche arm the squad with submachine guns and give each such squad a tank or divisional gun. How will the firepower of such a formation change in comparison with the Germans, decrease or increase? What is the meaning of the BRANCH to compare? I say that it is necessary to compare the minimum unit established by the Field Manual for the fulfillment of the ORDER. This is a company, or better a battalion. If the village was taken by a company, then the Nazis were affected by the ROUTE weapons in general and the weapons of the squad itself in particular. The battle was commanded by at least a company commander, not a squad leader. And it "worked" in the village, and therefore in the described German department, with EVERYTHING that the company commander had and what his father gave him.
    Quote: Stas57
    Well, prove that you couldn’t stand it- it’s easier for me, I have 1.5 million, I have staff.

    Why "prove" something if you already have all this? Historian Isaev to help you with individual chapters in the cycle of books by Antisuvorov - "On the road to the" assault "," State of 1941 "," Real competitor "," The realities of the war. "The man did the work and found several divisions that reached state for SVT rifles. Several out of several hundred. And the fact that you have 1,5 million and what is in the troops on 22.06.1941/8/4 are not the same. And what about the mob reserve in case of losses? Well, what would it be? "to withstand" the state not the first two or three weeks of fighting, but a couple of months, albeit victorious, but the war. In a few months after the attack on the USSR, XNUMX million people were called up. What rifle were they mainly armed with against the Wehrmacht units? Do not tell me? that existed for a maximum of a couple of months and, by and large, was simply thrown out during the retreats? But stubbornly ignore what REALLY fought for XNUMX long years?
    Quote: Stas57
    I just wanted to show - the summer army of the summer of 41 is completely self-sufficient and SVT and DP and their opponents, did this happen?

    You have not shown any personnel army. You talked about the ideas of the command of the Red Army, but not about the realities. You showed on the part of the USSR an ideal that did not exist, but on the part of Germany you took realities. The Red Army entered the battles in a non-mobilized state, and the presence or absence of SVT in the software did not help, but the absence of mortars and artillery was greatly affected.
    1. SuperFly
      SuperFly April 23 2016 23: 01
      0
      The absence of an armored personnel carrier and its aircraft overhead was greatly affected.
      1. yehat
        yehat April 25 2016 15: 22
        -2
        on what? on corn crops?
        1. SuperFly
          SuperFly April 28 2016 07: 00
          +1
          Wheat, then after the end of the Second World War almost Russian women plowed and sowed ...

          like you for joy
    2. Stas57
      April 24 2016 13: 17
      +2
      I’ll answer as a man brought up.
      I did not see in your posts either the requested numbers or a clear answer.
      and I myself am perfectly capable of reasoning, but I am interested in clear and competent criticism.
      thanks for the discussion.
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR April 23 2016 22: 38
    0
    Quote: Wallpaper Roll
    I don’t know, nothing is written about the range and pulse in the NSD.

    this is the simplest answer - I do not know. It’s so easy and convenient to live, read the instructions and go. What do you want to see there? What is real in a battle you from a rifle will be able to more or less confidently hit a target from 200-300m? No! They will tell you that you can conduct aimed fire up to 1200m - and the aiming bar with the corresponding markings as if hints at this. Here I have a car, its maximum speed according to the passport is 180km / h. And that’s it. And how do I develop these 180km / h? The quality of the coating of the roadway does not always allow me to do this, and if it allows, that is, there are other road users as well - reptiles interfere. Those. there is a group of factors. But the fact that at a distance of 400m the fly itself closes the target entirely is nothing? With 350m, aiming is already possible only on a growth target. And if the goal is not a growth? What to do then? How to see the target at such a range if it is khaki / fieldgradu and lies / sits, but does not move?
    1. Roll of wallpaper
      Roll of wallpaper April 23 2016 22: 46
      0
      Quote: DesToeR
      this is the easiest answer - I don't know

      It didn't mean "I don't know." This I politely wrote to you that you are writing nonsense.
      Quote: DesToeR
      It’s so easy and convenient to live, read the instructions and go. What do you want to see there? What is real in a battle you from a rifle will be able to more or less confidently hit a target from 200-300m?

      Very often come across some dreamers on this site. Which everyone knows better than the compilers of the NSD to weapons.
      Quote: DesToeR
      But the fact that at a distance of 400m the fly itself closes the target entirely is nothing?

      Awful. Thank you for saying. And these, from the Military, are stupid, right? And after all, they entered such ranks. Ah ah ah.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. AK64
      AK64 April 24 2016 13: 08
      +1
      They will tell you that you can conduct aimed fire up to 1200m - and the aiming bar with the corresponding markings as if hints at this.

      Everything is fine: At 1200 they fired volleys and against a group target. The need for such shooting fell away only with the massive introduction of machine guns.

      Here I have a car, its maximum speed according to the passport is 180km / h. And that’s it. And how do I develop these 180km / h?

      This feature characterizes engine power and dynamism - which you need for example when overtaking: the larger the number on the speedometer - the faster (and therefore safer) overtaking.
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR April 23 2016 22: 51
    +2
    Quote: Wallpaper Roll
    Those. the military do not want to "dump the game with one shot"? Apparently they want to get a pill in the head?

    the military will prefer two wounded animals instead of one dumped on the spot.
    Quote: Wallpaper Roll
    They are interested in a qualitative defeat, i.e. once and for all.

    And what is missing for a person of 5,45 or 5,56? As far as I know, the 7,62x54R cartridge and its bullet in particular were calculated not for a man, but for a cavalryman’s horse.
    Quote: Wallpaper Roll
    Only if this soldier is unfortunate. So this and the nail can easily run into. And a normal fighter with a not very serious injury is quite capable of taking care of himself. At first.

    But you rightly noticed that, yes, of course. At first, especially if you fainted, or there was a pain shock, or a bone of an extremity was killed, or ... another million reasons, then yes - this one is not suitable for fighters ...
    Quote: Wallpaper Roll
    You in vain neglect the small-caliber cartridges with the new generation bullets. They knock down cleaner than the classic intermediate (Soviet).

    I never spoke disparagingly about small-caliber bullets. And the fact that these newest bullets "knock down" better than the "classic" Soviet ones, so progress does not stand still. Only here are the old Soviet still ... and all over the world.
    1. AK64
      AK64 April 24 2016 12: 52
      +1
      Quote: Wallpaper Roll
      You in vain neglect the small-caliber cartridges with the new generation bullets. They knock down cleaner than the classic intermediate (Soviet).


      I never spoke disparagingly about small-caliber bullets. And the fact that these newest bullets "knock down" better than the "classic" Soviet ones, so progress does not stand still. Only here are the old Soviet still ... and all over the world.


      This is not "progress", this is meanness and meanness: take the "intermediate" one and cut the nose of the bullet with an asterisk - that will be "progress" for you. NATO's 5,6 is essentially the same (only "expands" not by "opening" but by turning. But in essence ... the same blatant meanness.)
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR April 23 2016 23: 07
    +3
    Quote: Wallpaper Roll
    Very often come across some dreamers on this site. Which everyone knows better than the compilers of the NSD to weapons.

    It’s immediately obvious that you didn’t work a day either in production or at a construction site. Then you would immediately understand the difference between "normative" and reality.
  • astral87911
    astral87911 April 24 2016 01: 16
    +1
    the best weapon always and at all times was considered the weapon of the country that won the war. Amateurs to seek out dignity in the weapons of the enemy, recall who won the war?
    1. AK64
      AK64 April 24 2016 12: 34
      +1
      the best weapon always and at all times was considered the weapon of the country that won the war. Amateurs to seek out dignity in the weapons of the enemy, recall who won the war?

      (1) not true, did not count.
      (2) this view is not only ridiculous but also deliberately lost: what can be learned, a priori Considering a smb smarter than everyone?
      (3) victory in the war of the USSR looks a little ... heavy --- the price is prohibitive. How is it, the weapons are the best (and in the largest quantities), the generals are the best, where does this price come from? Really soldiers walked again? The wrong people got the generals?
    2. wow
      wow April 24 2016 12: 43
      +1
      I agree to all 100! Otherwise, not our tanks, planes, artillery, etc. would have torn Berlin to pieces, but the German would have traveled around Moscow.
  • BISMARCK94
    BISMARCK94 April 24 2016 12: 29
    0
    Exactly the 42nd MG was "Hitler's Circular".
    How do you want MMG 42nd ...
  • wow
    wow April 24 2016 12: 40
    +1
    As the classic said: "... in the end, victory in a war is determined by the strength of the spirit of those masses who shed their blood on the battlefield ...". Neither add nor subtract!
    1. AK64
      AK64 April 24 2016 12: 45
      +1
      As the classic said: "... in the end, victory in a war is determined by the strength of the spirit of those masses who shed their blood on the battlefield ...". Neither add nor subtract!


      Truth? Say the British are against the Zulu? Was the Zulu lacking in spirit?
      "We will give an answer to any of your questions:
      we have a machine gun, but you don’t have one!
      "

      Oh, these "classics" for me ...
  • Stas57
    April 24 2016 13: 10
    +5
    subject picture
  • KLV
    KLV April 24 2016 15: 10
    -2
    Thanks to the author for the material! But depressing is the abundance of grammatical, spelling, and semantic errors. And copy-paste also needs to be done skillfully! In general, the site again moderators and editors weakened control over the literacy of published materials. This is very noticeable ...
  • Verdun
    Verdun April 24 2016 18: 27
    -3
    As most of our educated readers guess (and our readers are all educated), the MG 34 was seriously technically more difficult to care for, technologically more capacious in production, and more expensive than the DP-27.
    It is completely unclear on the basis of what data the author makes such a conclusion. The German machine gun was distinguished by good reliability, and the technological capacity was determined by the development of certain technologies. In general, the article is full of unsubstantiated statements based on a theory divorced from reality. A high rate of fire in itself is not an advantage. The first Kalashnikov assault rifles had an excessive, as practice showed, rate of fire, and to reduce it to 650-660 rounds per minute, a retarder was introduced into the design - a "whisper". And a comparative analysis of the department's weapons based on paper documents is a completely untenable thing. The Germans were all right with completeness, in the Red Army there was quite often a shortage of personnel and a shortage of weapons and equipment.
    1. Stas57
      April 24 2016 19: 40
      +3
      Quote: Verdun
      It is completely incomprehensible on the basis of what data the author draws a similar conclusion. The German machine gun was distinguished by good reliability, and the technological capacity is determined by the mastery of certain technologies. In general, the article is full of unproven statements based on a theory divorced from reality.

      at first I wanted to skip like a regular blub, but then I decided to answer, maybe someone will come in handy.

      if you weren’t too lazy and looked at least 1 weapons reference, you would know something like the following-
      The industrial production of MG-34 was almost entirely carried out on sophisticated metalworking equipment, and therefore the cost of manufacturing one unit turned out to be very significant - 312 Reichsmarks, and its production required 150 hours and about 49 kg of raw metal. The carriage cost 400 Reichsmarks, paired - 1300, Machine - 150, bipod - 15 Reichsmarks. The machine gun had a large number of milled parts. The machine gun was demanding on lubrication and maintenance.
      In the sands of North Africa, and then in the vast expanses of Russia, machine guns began to act up. Sand, dirt, water, getting inside the machine gun box, did not at all contribute to the failure-free operation of the automation, the Russian frosts turned out to be too tough for MG-34 - the lubrication of the moving parts simply froze, turning the weapon into a useless 12-kilogram piece of metal.


      another moment


      What did this infantry preparation look like?

      Very simple. Four weeks of classes: how to get into the infantry chain. This I became a machine gunner - and the rest were with carbines.

      What number?

      "Shooter-one." In machine-gun calculation there were still the second and third numbers, they had to carry cartridges. It was a light machine gun.

      MG-42?

      No, then he was not there. I had MG-34. I also had MG-42, but later. He was too fast, spent too many rounds.

      Were there any problems with MG-34? What kind?
      Yes, it is true, MG-34 was sensitive to pollution. And MG-42 was probably more resistant to pollution, it was not so sensitive. But as I said, he consumed too many rounds.

      Damerius dieter
      93-I Infantry Division.
      1. Verdun
        Verdun April 24 2016 20: 37
        0
        the lubrication of the moving parts simply froze, turning the weapon into a useless 12-pound piece of metal.
        This indicates the quality of the lubricant, and not the lack of a machine gun. But in the DP-27 there were already 20 return springs in the spare parts - you must agree, this says a lot. As for the cost of MG in the Reichsmarks, talking about it made sense until 1940. The capture of Europe made it possible to produce such weapons in sufficient quantities - there was enough machinery and workers. But my first comment is not about this, but that it is incorrect to compare the separation of the Red Army and the Wehrmacht at the beginning of the war. SVT rifles in the amount described by the author of the article, you would definitely not have found there. Yes, and with machine guns DP was not very ...
        1. AK64
          AK64 April 24 2016 20: 42
          +2
          This indicates the quality of the lubricant, and not the lack of a machine gun. As for the cost of MG in the Reichsmarks, talking about it made sense until 1940. The capture of Europe made it possible to produce such weapons in sufficient quantities - there was enough machinery and workers.


          Not allowed. And proof of that is MG-42, which is simplification MG-34.

          But my first comment is not about this, but that it is incorrect to compare the separation of the Red Army and the Wehrmacht at the beginning of the war. SVT rifles in the amount described by the author of the article, you would definitely not have found there. Yes, and with machine guns DP was not very ...


          The Germans also had a "not very": MG-18 had to be used in the 41st. And the fact of the transition to MG-42 shows that "not all was well in the danish kingdom"
          1. Verdun
            Verdun April 24 2016 20: 51
            0
            . Simplification and improvement is the logic of any production. DP-27 also modernized, the DPM turned out. And MG-18 is a large-caliber machine gun, caliber 13,25, what does it have to do with it?
            1. AK64
              AK64 April 24 2016 20: 59
              +1
              Simplification and improvement is the logic of any production.

              That's just MG-42 was essentially a new machine gun.
              (And also unimportant, to be completely honest. The Germans simply didn’t have much choice)


              And MG-18 is a large-caliber machine gun, caliber 13,25, what does it have to do with it?

              MG-08/15. Large-caliber - TuF
              It’s not the names, but the fact that the Germans also not enough machine guns. AND expensive MG-34 did not improve this situation in the least.
              1. Verdun
                Verdun April 24 2016 21: 27
                0
                The matter is not in the names, but in the fact that the Germans also did not have enough machine guns. And the expensive MG-34 didn’t improve this situation.
                You forget that the MG-34 was a single machine gun and was used not only in infantry, but also in aviation. There, his rate of fire completely paid off. And the presence of one machine gun for different branches of the armed forces made it possible to make it massive, reducing the cost of weapons for the armed forces as a whole. And, by the way, PDM was also very significantly different from DP.
                1. Stas57
                  April 24 2016 21: 46
                  +2
                  Quote: Verdun
                  You forget that the MG-34 was a single machine gun and was used not only in the infantry, but also in aviation.

                  The Germans had specially designed for aviation MG-15, MG-17, MG-81.
                  34 almost never used in aviation
                2. AK64
                  AK64 April 24 2016 21: 54
                  0
                  You forget that the MG-34 was a single machine gun and was used not only in the infantry, but also in aviation.

                  (1) this is not true: mg-15 and mg-34 had a common ancestor but were not the same machine gun.
                  (2) actually "one" is bad: as a result of this "unity" the Germans did not have a normal machine gun.

                  And the presence of one machine gun for different branches of the armed forces made it possible to make it massive, reducing the cost of weapons for the armed forces as a whole.

                  The MG-34 was, as a result, too expensive for the weapons of the squad - that's the whole result.
                  And no "mass character" helped, do not fantasize.

                  In general, you do not understand the problem: the machine gun for the infantry squad must be massive and cheap, they need a LOT. So neither the MG-34 nor the much cheaper MG-42 are corny for this description.

                  Closest, by the way, to the machine gun for separating Bren, which is Czech ZB-26, 27, 39, 33.

                  Also, in general, not ideal, but perhaps the closest to it.

                  But the "single machine gun", as it turned out, is bad: as a result, there is neither a normal light machine gun, nor an easel one.
        2. Stas57
          April 24 2016 21: 02
          +1
          Quote: Verdun
          that it is incorrect to compare the separation of the Red Army and the Wehrmacht at the beginning of the war.

          Why not?
          You can compare machine guns flying in a vacuum of war, but there is no separation?

          SVT rifles in the amount described by the author of the article, you would definitely not have found there. Yes, and with machine guns DP was not very ...

          It is completely incomprehensible on the basis of what data the author draws a similar conclusion.
          huh
          can you give a clear reference to the study that SVT in summer troops were in homeopathic doses?

          As for the cost of MG in the Reichsmarks, talking about it made sense until 1940. The capture of Europe made it possible to produce such weapons in sufficient quantities - there was enough machinery and workers.

          It is completely incomprehensible on the basis of what data the author draws a similar conclusion.
          on what?
          That's about the Czech Republic to you
          In xnumx production was switched over to the german MG 34 and production of the MG 30 (t) / ZB 1930 ceased.

          Yes, and with machine guns DP was not very ...

          It is completely incomprehensible on the basis of what data the author draws a similar conclusion.
          This indicates the quality of the lubricant, and not the lack of a machine gun.


          there was one lubrication - is it still in any store, is dust and sand the same lubrication is to blame?
          1. Verdun
            Verdun April 24 2016 21: 14
            0
            The commander of the 2nd Panzer Army G. Guderian, in a report on the experience of military operations on the Eastern Front of November 7, 1941, noted: “a) Infantry ... Its armament is lower than German, with the exception of an automatic rifle.”
            This is on the one hand.
            as noted by the People's Commissar of Arms D.F. Ustinov, the SVT-38 consisted of 143 parts (of which 22 springs), the production of which required 12 grades of steel (including two special ones). This explains the high cost of the SVT (higher than the DP light machine gun and an order of magnitude greater than the rifle model 1891/30). In the conditions of the military defeats of 1941-1942, the evacuation of industry, the lack of qualified personnel and the growing needs of the front for weapons, this was completely unacceptable

            This is on the other hand.
            And, yes, a lot of things were released on paper and there were a lot in warehouses, but the Moscow militia was armed with one Mosin rifle for two.
            1. Stas57
              April 24 2016 21: 48
              +1
              Quote: Verdun
              This is on the other hand.
              And, yes, a lot of things were released on paper and there were a lot in warehouses, but the Moscow militia was armed with one Mosin rifle for two.

              the Moscow militia is not the personnel officers of the western divisions of the spring state. It was formed on a completely different principle.

              But do you have numbers about the warehouses? Well, okay

              and then Isaev writes about your "half of the rifle for five"
              The 37 Army defending Kiev numbered nearly 100 thousand people. More precisely 99984 person. One hundred thousand! Moreover, in its composition were well-equipped and armed divisions. So at 10.09.41, the 147 I rifle division consisted of 10229 people, 28 sd - 10614 people, 206 sd - 9462 people, 284 sd - 8334 people. Only rifle formations (eleven divisions) and KiUR, which were part of 37 A, totaled 83491 people. Moreover, they were not badly armed. For example, 284 sd had 4719 conventional rifles and carbines and even 2249 SVT. 147 sd had more 1000 SVT
              such warehouses
              1. Verdun
                Verdun April 24 2016 22: 17
                +1
                You, I think, will not believe it, but my grandfather defended Kiev, only as part of not the 37th, but the 5th army. He was an officer, senior lieutenant. And he stated unequivocally that the lack of equipment and personnel was at least 30 percent. Although on paper everything was almost as expected. Uncle commanded a battery of howitzers RGK B-4 on a tracked carriage. At the beginning of the war, the T-20 artillery tractors were listed as state-owned batteries, but in reality they were dragged by horses. In Russia, this often happens when on paper and in words - one thing, but in fact - another.
                1. AK64
                  AK64 April 24 2016 22: 35
                  +2
                  And he stated unequivocally that the lack of equipment and personnel was at least 30 percent.


                  Have you ever heard of German tank divisions, in which there was one battalion of tanks?
                  I think they have not heard.
                  Well, now they heard --- there was such a thing.
                  There were also divisions of the Luftwaffe, when valuable aivation specialists were temporarily assigned to the infantry - and this "temporarily" continued until the end of the war.
                  And Todt’s golden hands are again into the infantry ... And there were virtuosos ...

                  You judge fantasy war. But where seriously fighting --- everyone always lacks.

                  I already mentioned above that in the 44th the Germans began to release Stan - so you would have seen those Stan - this ... something, you won’t look without tears.
                  1. Verdun
                    Verdun April 24 2016 22: 50
                    +1
                    That is, Heinz Guderian, to whose evaluation I refer, is a visionary, but you are not? And the people who went through the war and really fought are pathetic liars, and you are a champion of truth?
                    Have you ever heard of German tank divisions, in which there was one battalion of tanks?
                    I have not already mentioned that in the 44th the Germans began to release Stan - so you would have seen those Stan - this ... something, you won’t look without tears.
                    So then - in the 44th ...
                    1. The comment was deleted.
                    2. AK64
                      AK64 April 24 2016 23: 39
                      +1
                      That is, Heinz Guderian, to whose evaluation I refer, is a visionary, but you are not?

                      Guderian? Yes, Guderian is just Menhausen. Complete liar, and unscrupulous to the same.
                      And that’s not what he was lying about the Soviet ones - Guderian completely shamelessly put on himself and only himself no less creation of armored forces. But in fact, at that time he was just a major.

                      And the people who went through the war and really fought are pathetic liars, and you are a champion of truth?

                      You get out of the sheet, it’s not funny. They begin to dress in white clothes - when there are no reasons. You do not have them, and from the very beginning you didn’t have them. So hysteria.
                      And you can’t take me to a show off either.


                      So then - in the 44th ...

                      Tank divisions with one battalion of tanks - this is for the Germans the real summer of 1942, and the 43rd. Yes and then usually.
                      The walls really only started at the end of the 44th sculpt.

                      Yes, YOU just admit that you are not in the know, that's all ...

                      In the winter of 1941-42, the Wehrmacht lost approximately 1800000 people killed, wounded and sick. The aircraft composition of the Luftwaffe was reduced to about 30-40% of the regular one. That is, a bunch of specialists remained underemployed. Well, they were organized in the winter into two "infantry divisions of the Luftwaffe". As if temporarily - but temporarily dragged on until the end of the war.

                      You, in general, throw off the show off, such is the advice.
                      1. lel
                        lel April 25 2016 08: 03
                        0
                        probably motorized divisions ??? it can't be that in a tank div. there was 1 battalion of tanks .... throw a link ....
                      2. AK64
                        AK64 April 25 2016 08: 32
                        0
                        probably motorized divisions ???


                        No not likely

                        it can't be that in a tank div. there was 1 battalion of tanks .... throw a link ....

                        I will not look for links to you - this is a common dream and is known to all.

                        For example, as a child in 1942, the 1TA and 4TA were more or less brought to the states (although there, too, the T-2 was used as line, and not only in reconnaissance companies, as "it should be" in the states). And in the 2nd and 3rd TA left in the Center group, there were 1-2 tank battalions for tank the division.

                        Once again I say: this is a common place and is known to everyone except dreamers.
                  2. The comment was deleted.
              2. faiver
                faiver April 25 2016 05: 58
                +1
                Sorry, I imagined an oil painting - a B-4 (disassembled) hooked up to a T-20 "Komsomolets" tractor with a 50-horsepower carburetor engine :), this, by definition, cannot be ....
                if the Germans used to pull the 15 infantry cannon (two tons) of 6 horses, then how many horses did our horses pull? the mass of each carriage is about 10 tons ...
                1. The comment was deleted.
                2. Verdun
                  Verdun April 25 2016 10: 38
                  0
                  And, nevertheless, a fact! And there are two dozen horses for each gun. And then dragged with difficulty ...
                  1. faiver
                    faiver April 25 2016 10: 58
                    +2
                    B-4 transporter disassembled in three wagons or 20 horses for one carriage (I would like to look at this epic tuple), or not poluchaetsa, and in the first version - 60 horses for one gun (not counting ammunition) is a complete arsenal .. .
                    1. Verdun
                      Verdun April 25 2016 11: 36
                      0
                      Moreover, uncle said that for this reason in the winter, during the defense of Moscow, the battery was not able to take away legs in time from German tanks that broke through our defenses. The horses scratched their hooves on the ice and could not move the equipment. I had to rush to install the guns again and repel the tank attack, pointing the howitzers through the barrel channel visually. Starting to fight at the age of 17, the lieutenant (from the last year of the Odessa artillery school was taken), the uncle finished it in Sakhalin as lieutenant colonel. Of the orders and medals there is such an iconostasis that it was difficult to wear. He didn’t have a lie and invent habits. And further. Howitzer B-4. The mass in combat position is 17 kg. In the field - 700 kg. Moved in three entrainments.
                    2. faiver
                      faiver April 25 2016 11: 59
                      +1
                      :) in the marching 19ton, add a lot of the carts themselves and get 10 tons each :)
              3. Stas57
                April 25 2016 12: 05
                0
                if the Germans used to pull the 15 infantry cannon (two tons) of 6 horses, then how many horses did our horses pull? the mass of each carriage is about 10 tons ...

                Are you talking about sFH18?
                dragged her into the assembly, assembled only for short distances
                1. faiver
                  faiver April 25 2016 15: 55
                  0
                  no, I'm talking about 15 cm sIG 33, it's not for nothing that I wrote that she was "infantry and regimental", and sFH18 is a division-level howitzer
                  1. Stas57
                    April 25 2016 16: 07
                    0
                    Quote: faiver
                    no, I'm talking about 15 cm sIG 33, it's not for nothing that I wrote that she was "infantry and regimental", and sFH18 is a division-level howitzer

                    15 cm sIG 33 is:
                    but. not a cannon, heavy infantry gun, the type is closer to the howitzer and mortar (52-G-521)
                    b. the mass is not 2 tons, 1700.
                  2. faiver
                    faiver April 25 2016 16: 23
                    -1
                    I agree, I lied a little with the name, but just rounded up a lot :)
  • Gippo
    Gippo April 24 2016 22: 17
    -7
    Another vyser sofa "yksperda".
    According to his perverted logic, ALL branches of the Red Army were armed
    either automatic or self-loading weapons. But the Wehrmacht, in addition to machine guns, had NOTHING in this regard.
    What a stupid and self-assertive statement.
    Let us ask ourselves the question, why am I this "eksperd" this statement "vyser"?
    "And the answer - it is very simple, and the only answer" (V.S. Vysotsky)
    Another ram throwing on the fan, about how the Stalinist bloody regime, with full technical superiority, almost lost the war, but who helped him? BINGO!! Of course, allies !! They took Berlin in time and saved the Stalinist hordes from total destruction somewhere in Poland ...
    So, another little story is written from small pieces of shit.
    Brothers, why on this site the author of such a trash can’t beat an aspen count for life? This is not the first time that I SUCH FUCKING that ears are curled up.
    Or is this a site policy? However, given the number of idiots, I’m not surprised.
  • kon125
    kon125 April 24 2016 23: 36
    0
    There was a very sensible article on the site dedicated to the Degtyarev machine gun. The trouble is that none of us shot it. And you can only judge a weapon after using it at least at the training ground. Because the TTX is one thing. And the other was shooting. Was it different? Degtyarev for firing in long bursts, like MG? Modernization of the RP 46 was not only in the belt power supply, but also in the spring. Which was put into a glass above the butt. I disassembled both the RPD and RP 46, the machines are strong, disassembling is simple, simpler than the ACS. But I heard that with long shots at the RPD, the spring went down and the machine gun jammed. And the MG could beat in long bursts and only the trunk needed to be changed. The second number was quickly done. For example, for some reason I would not exchange RMBs for Pecheneg, and who knows, I’ll agree with me, I won’t give reasons. It’s also about RPD and MG. On paper, it’s easy to compare the performance characteristics. And as in battle .. on the defensive, in the offensive, but how the weapon heats up, and how out of time it is sometimes heated. training MG 4 brought us to show in Gaijun. Just by look. It's a pity there are no war veterans what they would say ...
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  • Stas57
    April 25 2016 12: 08
    +2
    all noted.
    in the end there are still such photos