Military Review

How to save America from mistakes. On the 65 anniversary of the defeat of the US Air Force by Soviet MiGs over Korea

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How to save America from mistakes. On the 65 anniversary of the defeat of the US Air Force by Soviet MiGs over Korea



12 April 1951, the Soviet air force staged a black bomber for American bomber

The President of the United States B.Kh. Obama said the other day that his main mistake was the thoughtless destruction of Libya from the air.

Previously, he also considered one of the main mistakes of his predecessor Bush is the thoughtless destruction of Iraq from the air.

Today, when we celebrate the “Black Thursday” 65 anniversary for the US Air Force in the skies over Korea, it's worth talking about how one country managed to escape.

The idea of ​​widespread use aviation Against countries and regimes that do not agree with the Anglo-Saxon understanding of the world order, he publicly voiced W. Churchill in the Fulton speech. The first country that after the Second World War they tried to roll into dust by bombers was North Korea.

However, the first pancake came out lumpy. Why in Korea did not work out what happened then repeatedly? Why didn't the US Air Force smash B. Asad's troops into dust like they did with M. Gaddafi's army?

So, let's see how all Soviet and American pilots met in the Korean sky.

prehistory


Korea before the 1945 year was a Japanese colony, so it is logical that it was occupied by the troops of the USSR and the USA. The Allies divided Korea into zones of occupation just as they had divided Germany and Austria before. The USSR went to the north of the country, America - the south. The border between the Soviet and American zones ran along the 38 parallel.

In the literature describing the pre-war years, it is indicated that the USSR and the United States originally planned to reunite the northern and southern zones into a single Korea. However, this was hardly possible after the formation of governments - led by Kim Il Sung in the north and Lee Seung Man in the south. Moreover, each of the new Korean leaders believed that it was under his command that this reunion would take place.

War


Who is responsible for the start of the war? The question is quite controversial. In fact, it was started by Kim Il Sung: the North Korean army 25 June 1950 of the year crossed the line of demarcation and by August controlled almost the entire peninsula. However, he began it in response to constant violations of the border from the "southern" side. Only in 1949, their Bole is more than 2600.

It is also believed that the Korean War was an undeclared war between the USSR and the USA: the States supported their henchmen, we theirs. This is somewhat wrong. If we talk about support, then from our side Kim Il Sung was more likely supported by China.

On the side of the North Korean forces fought primarily Chinese volunteers and military experts. The USSR also provided pre-war training for the North Korean army. But the first time, until about October 1950, the Koreans fought themselves.



At the second stage of the war (autumn 1951 d), the South Korean government received the support of the "UN forces". This, of course, was a euphemism: there were no other United Nations forces other than American in this part of the world at that time.

By the beginning of October 1950, the situation was changing to the opposite - now the North Korean army is already defeated and retreating to the Chinese border.



And only from this point on, the PRC, and then the USSR, entered the war on the side of the North.

Moreover, on the part of the PRC, this support was not only a tribute to membership in the Comintern or blind anti-Americanism. Mao Zedong: "If we allow the US to occupy the entire Korean Peninsula ... we must be prepared for the fact that they will declare war on China." Taking into account the American support of Taiwan, the opinion is quite reasonable.

In the USSR, it was justly reasoned that there were enough infantry in the PRC and Korea. And so they sent to help something that neither the PRC nor the Koreans possessed — fighter aircraft and pilots who had passed through the Great Patriotic War.

Defeat


The fact is that the main reason for the defeat of the North Korean army was the bomber aircraft of the “UN forces”, which used the well-known tactic of “bombing into the Stone Age”. As soon as Soviet pilots appeared in the skies of Korea, the course of hostilities again changed abruptly.



Of course, this is a common merit - Soviet fighters, who drove the US bombers, and China, who supplied Kim Il Sung with volunteers and military aid.

Just with the military help "Black Thursday" and connected. Its deliveries went to Korea via a railway bridge across the border Yalu River. The destruction of the bridge meant the cessation of supply weapons and ammunition.

12 April 1951, X-NUMX B-48 were sent to the ferry under cover of F-29, F-80, F-84 - only about 86 fighters.

The famous Soviet ace I. Kozhedub raised everything he had to intercept this armada: the 36 fighters of the MiG-15 of his division (according to other sources, a couple on duty remained at the airfield), which only in early April was transferred to Korea.

It should be noted that the attack was not at all suicidal. Only F-86 could compete with MiGs on equal terms, with the rest of our pilots getting involved in a battle even with 10-multiple enemy advantage - affected by the military experience of pilots and MiG advantages in armament and speed.

To describe the further events of that day, the word “rout” is best suited. Losses accounted for the 12 B-29 and 5 fighter cover. About 100 American pilots and gunners (crew of B-29 - 12 people) were captured. The bridge survived.

In October of the same year, our aces gave the Americans another “black day”, destroying the 16 “Super Fortresses”. After that, the American command finally abandoned the use of B-29 in large groups during the day, and, therefore, from the tactic of “bombing into the stone age”. However, October was already the last attempt, the fighting reached an impasse in July. The US military machine, due to constant losses in strategic aviation, increasingly stalled.

By that time, both Koreas had dug in around the 38 parallel, with which the war began a year ago. 27 July 1953, the parties signed a truce and are still in a state of war, although they are not fighting.

conclusions


In the course of the Cold War, the USSR and the United States were more than once in a situation of confrontation. However, such large-scale battles between the pilots of the two countries no longer existed.

Moreover, after Vietnam (aces of the Soviet and Vietnamese air forces and Soviet anti-aircraft gunners played a similar role), the United States basically changes the form of participation in indirect conflicts with the USSR. The place of the “Super Fortress” is occupied by bearded Islamists (Afghanistan) - they are much cheaper than a bomber, and it’s not a pity to lose them.

We observe the “Renaissance” of carpet bombing only in conflicts in which Russia either did not intend to take part (first and second Iraq, Libya), or at times when we were, so to say, not completely subjective (Yugoslavia). So in Syria, the decision to use the air force against the troops of Assad did not go further. And bearded Islamists have their limit of effectiveness.

***

And finally, a small observation. The United States is fighting for the sake of what they live for — for the sake of money. “Black Tuesday”, “Black Thursday” - this is how they call not only the days of the largest military losses, but also the days of record falls of stock market indices, i.e. they are perceived as events of the same order.

So, it is quite simple to save even the most outspoken Washington hawks from repeating Korea, Vietnam or Yugoslavia.

And saving them from mistakes - we ultimately bring them good.
Author:
Originator:
http://www.km.ru/science-tech/2016/04/14/konflikt-na-koreiskom-poluostrove/775054-kak-uberech-ameriku-ot-oshibok-k-65
63 comments
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  1. Reptiloid
    Reptiloid April 17 2016 06: 24
    +32
    Thank you for the excursion into history. This topic is very rarely written.
    It’s hard to believe that American presidents can be saved from mistakes - nature is very mean. If you save one thing, they’ll make a mean “mistake” and repent in another place. Such a habit.
    1. andj61
      andj61 April 17 2016 07: 24
      +14
      Quote: Reptiloid
      Thank you for the excursion into history. This topic is very rarely written.

      The tour is very simplified. There is nothing about the fact that at first the MiG-15 could not compete on equal terms with the F-86 Saber - on the MiG there were no word locators at all, and only after they put on it a simple, even at first home-made, radar detector, which, with a sound signal, informed about the irradiation of the aircraft with a radar, it was possible to fully show the advantage of both pilots and aircraft. And how many of our pilots died before that ... Eternal memory to them!
      1. Reptiloid
        Reptiloid April 17 2016 07: 35
        +4
        About Hungary in 1956, about Czechoslovakia in 1968, about Vietnam more than once. TV. You don’t have time to read so much, years will go away, TV helps. And about this war is an American comedy series. Why was it shown (for a long time), if we are on the other side?
        1. NordUral
          NordUral April 19 2016 10: 35
          +7
          Those who showed and still shows similar are also not on our side, although they are sitting in Ostankino.
          1. goncharov.62
            goncharov.62 3 January 2017 17: 35
            0
            They are only "Viking" and can show us. Like a story ...
      2. PKK
        PKK April 17 2016 20: 33
        +4
        I’ll clarify that the radiation detector didn’t work when they put them on airplanes, but when the author ordered them to be filled with resin, which the fighter filled the airfield cracks with. The fill saved the device from dampness and it worked. Before that, the Americans themselves did not fly in wet weather and in dew in the morning. The radio sight was buggy.
        1. maxes
          maxes April 19 2016 23: 38
          +5
          I watched the program on this topic. There, the author of the device (I don’t remember his name) just said that he fixes radiation from the rangefinder, this is not a radio sight.
          And initially the device worked, but then there were problems - frequent false alarms. The pilots even refused to use "useless squeakers." The reason was that the wet season had come and the dampness caused the device to malfunction.
          And the gulf was actually eliminated by resin: once the author saw a Korean man at the airport who was repairing something by pouring resin, sealed the device with this resin.
      3. Bersaglieri
        Bersaglieri April 18 2016 14: 06
        +4
        On the F-86, too, there was no locator, only a radio range finder + ASP
        1. Tula gingerbread
          Tula gingerbread 17 November 2016 15: 21
          +1
          And then he did not immediately appear.
    2. sergeybulkin
      sergeybulkin April 17 2016 12: 46
      +7
      Thank you for the excursion into history.

      I would also like to add here that China also beat (and very successfully) amers in that Korean war.
  2. aszzz888
    aszzz888 April 17 2016 06: 41
    +27
    12 April 1951, the Soviet air force staged a black bomber for American bomber

    Well rushing to the merikatos on April 12! We have a holiday - Cosmonautics Day, and they have Black days of the Navy and the US Air Force! laughing
    1. Bersaglieri
      Bersaglieri April 18 2016 16: 57
      +1
      Why not? On April 12, 1981, they launched the first Shuttle, for example.
      So, not everything is so sad :)
      1. Mushroom
        Mushroom April 20 2016 03: 58
        +1
        Shuttle Memories for Americans - Black
    2. clidon
      clidon April 19 2016 16: 01
      +1
      And why the Navy?
  3. Mangel olys
    Mangel olys April 17 2016 06: 49
    +2
    Therefore, protect even the most outspoken Washington hawks from repeating Korea, Vietnam or Yugoslavia are pretty simple.

    I think not to save, but to warn that they would no longer meddle.
    1. Tula gingerbread
      Tula gingerbread 17 November 2016 15: 23
      +1
      In general, it is well said - "And saving them from mistakes - we ultimately bring them good."
      The most important thing for Americans is the loot and saving them from mistakes, we save them the loot.
  4. avia12005
    avia12005 April 17 2016 07: 04
    +24
    As long as the United States itself is not bombed into the stone age, they will always try to do it with others.
  5. semirek
    semirek April 17 2016 07: 40
    +8
    North Korea could easily be the mistress of both Koreas --- come on the day of the Soviet delegation’s election to the UN, but you just had to abstain from the vote, and the war would have gone according to a different scenario. Americans without a UN mandate would not be able to act openly, greatly changed the alignment of forces, it turns out the leadership of the Union wanted this war, but for what? Yes, the heroism and skill of our pilots who fought in Korea deserves recognition, glory to them, but our aces acted there illegally, unlike amers, and their names were until the last secret until recently, as the very participation of Soviet troops in the Korean War.
    As for the American aviation - I already wrote somewhere in the comments - it has hopelessly lagged behind the Russian Air Force, as a result of the "raslabon" of the last decades, and it is very problematic to catch up with us with such a gap.
    1. Foofighter
      Foofighter April 17 2016 08: 02
      .
      This would lead to the collapse of the UN back in 1950, they calmly without a mandate then bombed Yugoslavia in 1999 and then occupied Kosovo

      The MiG had an advantage in armament only over the B-29 bombers, for fights with maneuverable F-86 fighters it was not fast enough. Above these fighters, he had it only in the climb and the ceiling.

      The Americans fled to Korea after Chinese volunteers crossed the Sino-Korean border. There were also Soviet MiGs in the Chinese Air Force, they fought in the air a little worse, but still better than the Americans.
      1. Foofighter
        Foofighter April 17 2016 08: 23
        +2
        The Chinese leadership has repeatedly warned the UN (and China was not accepted into the UN before the Americans were thrown out of Vietnam) that the PRC would not tolerate if some non-Korean forces cross the 38th parallel. Instead, while China was preparing, the Americans reached the Chinese border on one third of its length ... Beijing is too close to the Korean border, for them that war was something like Finnish. The USSR, near Vladivostok, was also not needed by the Americans.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. skeptic
        skeptic April 17 2016 10: 41
        +22
        It is advisable not to write about airplanes if you do not understand anything about them.
        Need to study combat use issues
        MIG -15 - an outstanding fighter of the 50s-60s, with powerful cannon armament,
        It is recognized by all experts, including and Western.
        A modernization and improvement of technology pr results
        fights are a common thing.
        Super Saber replaced the machine-gun loser Saber ...
        And he also became a loser when faced with supersonic MIG-19.
        Later, the F-4 suffered from the MIG-21.
        The story of the confrontation continues.
        Now the Su - 35 is compared with the F - 35.
        If only they wouldn’t shoot ...
        And if anything, then let Our always beat them!
        1. Foofighter
          Foofighter April 17 2016 11: 07
          +1
          So don’t write ... Continue to compare the Su-35 with this guanos, instead of comparing it with the F-22

          F-86 was a loser because he could not climb to the same height from which they were attacked from above by the MiG-15. His rapid-firing weapons allowed him to easily hit MiGs not only strictly in the tail but also from oblique angles, including oblique nasal.
          If not so, the F-15s will now do the same with their rate of 6600 versus 1500 for the MiG-29

          Take a machine gun and shoot at the aluminum pan, which is also seasoned with kerosene or its vapor. To defeat unarmored targets, a gun is not needed, especially 30mm laughing
          1. Foofighter
            Foofighter April 17 2016 11: 27
            +1
            And about the "falling off wings" see other comments here and google how the German bombers in the Northern Fleet had 12 machine gun Hurricanes sawing off their wings. True, for this it was necessary to fly close to them.
            1. Mushroom
              Mushroom April 20 2016 05: 50
              +1
              I googled as it should, I did not find fairy tales about the sawn off wings with a rifle caliber. Everywhere mentions that these MK I Hurricanes sought immediately to rearm on normal weapons. We have two UBC and 2 ShVAK
              1. Foofighter
                Foofighter April 20 2016 11: 26
                0
                Means badly googled ... And where googled about the fact that these are "fairy tales"?
              2. The comment was deleted.
          2. Gamdlislyam
            Gamdlislyam April 17 2016 13: 08
            +9
            Quote: FooFighter
            F-86 was a loser because he could not climb to the same height from which they were attacked from above by the MiG-15. His rapid-firing weapons allowed him to easily hit MiGs not only strictly in the tail but also from oblique angles, including oblique nasal.

            The heavy machine guns that stood on American planes were effective up to a distance of 350, and a maximum of 400 meters. MiG-15 guns (two - 23 mm and one - 37 mm) were effective at a distance of more than 800 mm. What was especially important at the collision courses, when the approach speeds forced them to disperse already at a distance of 400-600 meters.
            1. Foofighter
              Foofighter April 17 2016 21: 27
              -5
              Fighter combat is conducted at shorter distances, the braking of a projectile in the air, on the contrary, is critical precisely when firing after and not in the forehead.
          3. skeptic
            skeptic April 17 2016 21: 59
            +12
            You do not understand again.
            Thanks for the advice, I shot ...
            And about the pots ...
            MIG-15 guns were greatly appreciated by the crews of dozens of downed B-29s
            and hundreds of smaller Amerov planes.
            By the way, few of them wrote memoirs.
            Therefore, it seems to you that Russian guns are "slow".
            But effective?
            And it seems that you need to compare the Su - 35 with the massive F-35.
            For F - 22 we are preparing a new Su.
            Probably having flaws and guns and missiles are "wrong".
            But we are sure that Our will make another F a loser!
            1. Foofighter
              Foofighter April 19 2016 09: 56
              -4
              For aluminum?

              A slow gun in fighter combat costs almost nothing.

              Even if the thrust-to-weight ratio is again more than one and a half times as it was in Korea, it still won’t. The MiGs lost the advantage of 2km in the ceiling in 1958 with the advent of the AIM-9, and this led to the disaster of the Chinese Air Force in Taiwan in 1958.
              1. yehat
                yehat April 19 2016 10: 50
                0
                in equilateral combat costs little
                and if there is an advantage in maneuvering, it costs a lot
                1. Foofighter
                  Foofighter April 20 2016 03: 32
                  -1
                  It depends on what an advantage, and in the group it still costs nothing
                2. The comment was deleted.
          4. DimerVladimer
            DimerVladimer April 19 2016 15: 11
            +3
            Quote: FooFighter
            Take a machine gun and shoot at the aluminum pan, which is also seasoned with kerosene or its vapor. To defeat unarmored targets, a gun is not needed, especially 30mm


            You are not right.
            MiG-15 and F-86 have different concepts.
            The MiG-15 was created to protect the territory from bombers, its heavy, but with a low rate of fire weapons perfectly hit the bombers - the main weapon of the air war.
            Saber was imprisoned to gain superiority in the air - the fight against fighters and to cover the bombers - a purely offensive weapon.
            1. Foofighter
              Foofighter April 20 2016 02: 31
              -1
              Well, I know this very well, just one Herr Zampolit walks here and pushes his pseudoscience behind a basket of cookies and a jar of jam ... he is looking for fools so that later he can be delivered even simply from yelling and mate on the air.
        2. The comment was deleted.
    2. PKK
      PKK April 17 2016 20: 43
      +6
      Indeed, Stalin knew about the plans for an attack on the United States against the USSR. The first plan was from 1949, which included nuclear bombing of large cities of the country. There was nothing special to oppose. To delay the time of the attack on the USSR and the war in Korea was unleashed. This war did its job .
      1. Foofighter
        Foofighter April 17 2016 21: 18
        +1
        In addition to the atomic one, for example, there are also chemical, bacteriological, radiological, and other types of weapons.

        The Korean war was not unleashed by the USSR. Read generally what the American professor Lee-Sy-Man did in the south of Korea ...
        1. Bersaglieri
          Bersaglieri April 19 2016 09: 17
          +1
          The most interesting thing is that the United States had plans to use atomic and chemical weapons against the advancing "Chinese People's Volunteers". But they were abandoned, because there were still few bombs, the carrier is still the same B-29, and chemical weapons in mountainous areas and in winter are ineffective.
          1. Foofighter
            Foofighter April 19 2016 09: 59
            0
            For it was possible to receive the same in other places. In general, the war was "negotiated".

            The Chinese led their offensive so that they did not focus too strong, and tried to stay close to the enemy.
      2. The comment was deleted.
    3. DimerVladimer
      DimerVladimer April 19 2016 14: 24
      +1
      Quote: semirek
      As for the American aviation - I already wrote somewhere in the comments - it has hopelessly lagged behind the Russian Air Force, as a result of the "raslabon" of the last decades, and it is very problematic to catch up with us with such a gap.

      Your opinion is debatable. Our aviation has not participated in any conflict since the days of Vietnam, wherever the Air Force or Air Defense would oppose it. Those. there are no proven developments, theoretical work out in the Lipetsk center for combat use. There is no practical evidence.
      American pilots are fighting much more actively - tactical experience and methodology of combat use are accumulating.
      I do not see a single example to justify your position?
      1. Mikhail Matyugin
        Mikhail Matyugin April 19 2016 22: 12
        +2
        Quote: DimerVladimer
        Our aviation has not participated in any conflict since the days of Vietnam, wherever the air force or air defense counteracted it

        Have you forgotten about the affairs of Lebanon and the Bekaa Valley?
        1. Foofighter
          Foofighter April 21 2016 01: 20
          0
          It is necessary to clarify whose "our" and the year.
  6. demiurg
    demiurg April 17 2016 07: 55
    +9
    With the loss of more than 10-15% of bombers per take-off, strategic raids are impossible (five to seven raids with a high chance that the task will not be completed, and there is simply nothing to bomb, and it is difficult to make up, or rather unrealistic, especially for the crews). And in Korea, the loss of super-fortresses was greater. Perhaps that is why the third world war did not start: the West was shown that there would be no war only in the air. And on earth in 50 years to stop the Soviet army, which had enormous experience, they could not.
  7. bionik
    bionik April 17 2016 08: 35
    0
    How one lieutenant stopped the war in Korea
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLV9dMjBReI]
  8. B-15
    B-15 April 17 2016 08: 40
    +3
    I join the statement about the oversimplified presentation of the material.
    F-86 was a more modern aircraft and only the skill of our pilots and the maneuverability of the MIG-15 allowed us to fight on equal terms.
    It is not said at all that our pilot was the first loss in the air battles of our fighters with the Americans. Of course, not even a day passed, as the Americans rained down more intensely from the sky.
    It is not said that the F-86 made it possible to improve the MIG-19 and ensure the superiority of the MIG-19 over the F-86. It was possible to withdraw the slightly damaged F-86 in the USSR. But in Vietnam, the next generation of fighters has already met.
    In a word, the defeat of US bomber aircraft in Korea was complete. But the fighters of the new models fought on equal terms.
    The only thing depressing is the complete silence of this war in the troops and the refusal to study the experience of battles in combat units. Pilots returning from Korea were forced to sign a non-disclosure paper. So experience and profuca.
    1. Rus2012
      Rus2012 April 17 2016 09: 48
      +8
      Quote: B-15
      It is not said that F-86 made it possible to improve the MIG-19 and ensure the superiority of the MIG-19 over the F-86.

      /// I wonder how it is?
      Mig-19 - a supersonic twin-engine heavy fighter and interceptor in the first place, and fu86 - a subsonic front-line fighter

      MiG-19 (product SM-9, codified by NATO: Farmer - "Farmer") - the Soviet single-seat fighter of the second generation, developed by the Design Bureau of Mikoyan and Gurevich in the early 1950-ies. The first Soviet serial supersonic fighter, was widely used in the air defense system of the USSR and delivered abroad. The same age as the American F-100 Super Saber, although in Vietnam it was opposed by the later F-4 Phantom II.

      TTX

      1955 g. - adopted for service in the USSR, withdrawn - 1989g.
      Released - approx. 6,5thousand
      Crew: 1 pilot
      Length: 12,54 m
      Wingspan: 9,0 m
      Height: 3,885 m
      Wing area: 25,16 m²
      1 / 4 chord sweep angle: 55 °

      Empty weight: 5172 – 5447 kg (according to various sources)
      Normal takeoff weight: 7560 kg
      Maximum takeoff weight: 8832 kg


      Flight characteristics

      Maximum allowable speed: M = 1,6
      Maximum speed: 1452 km / h on 10000 m
      Takeoff Speed: 280 – 305 km / h
      Landing speed: 235 km / h
      Practical range: 1400 km / 2200 km with PTB
      Flight Duration: 1 hours. 43 minutes. / 2 hours 38 minutes with PTB
      Ceiling: 15 600 m
      afterburner: 17 500 m - 17 900 m

      Climbing time:
      10000 m in 1,1 min
      15000 m in 2,6 min
      Wing loading: 296 kg / m²

      Powerplant: 2 × TRDF RD-9Б
      Unforced traction: 2 × 2600 kgf (25,5 kN)
      Afterburner: 2 × 3250 kgf (31,9 kN)
      Thrust-weight ratio: 0,86 (afterburner)

      Take-off length: 900 m with PTB
      afterburner: 515 m without PTB
      path length: 890 m
      with a parachute: 610 m
      Maximum operational overload: + 8,0 units
      with PTB: + 5,0 units

      weaponry
      Shooting gun: 3 × 30 mm guns HP-30 with 201 cartridge
      Pendant Points: 2 – 4
      Guided missiles: up to 4 × RS-2U at MiG-19ПМ
      Unguided rockets: 2 – 4 × block by 16 – 32 rockets
      Bombs: 2 × from 50 kg to 250 kg of bombs

      Fu-86, became widely known during the Korean War 1950-1953 years, being the only serious rival to the Soviet MiG-15 fighter.

      TTX

      Appointment: fighter, fighter-bomber
      Adopted: 1948 year

      Total Built: 9860
      Crew: 1 people
      Cruising speed: 864 km / h
      Max. speed: 1107 km / h
      Max. ground speed: 1093 km / h
      Max. speed at altitude: 972 km / h
      Combat radius: 745 km
      Range: 1365 km
      Range with PTB: 2120 km
      Practical ceiling: 14630 m
      Battle ceiling: 12200 m
      Rate of climb: 2835 m / min
      dimensions
      Length: 11.43 m
      Height: 4,26 m
      Wingspan: 11.30 m
      Wing Area: 26.75 m²
      Weight
      Empty: 4906 kg
      Power point
      Thrust (power): 1 x 2708
      weaponry
      Small arms: 6 x 12,7 mm machine guns M3 Colt-Browning or four 20-mm guns Oerlicon
      1. B-15
        B-15 April 17 2016 10: 06
        +5
        Thank! Exhaustively.
        The main problem with the MIG-15 in close combat was the visibility of the pilot. The F-86 had it much better.
        A bit wrong. I wanted to say about the MIG-17. Thanks again.
        And MIG-19 we stood as a study guide. Even the guys from Lubyanka strained when installing the aircraft in their territory. :-)
        1. Foofighter
          Foofighter April 17 2016 10: 57
          .
          the main problem was the low rate of fire of his rifle-cannon mount. Only 1500 rounds / min against 7200 for the F-86.

          The MiG-19 is actually a supersonic aircraft, the F-86 is subsonic and almost all of them were escort bombers.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. Foofighter
            Foofighter April 17 2016 11: 16
            0
            ... escort fighters.
        2. yehat
          yehat April 19 2016 10: 54
          0
          Well, I don’t know about visibility - front-line pilots who were used to even weaker visibility fought on them. I myself sat in the instant-15 (in the exhibition) with a review somehow I did not notice the problems
          1. Foofighter
            Foofighter April 20 2016 03: 56
            0
            would shoot at a bend - noticed.
          2. The comment was deleted.
    2. creak
      creak April 17 2016 19: 52
      +5
      The article also does not say that our pilots fought not only on the MIG-15, but also on the LA-11, armed with high-speed guns ShVAK). This was the last combat use of these fighters ...
      These events are reflected in the memoirs of the GSS S. Kramarenko, who fought in Korea as part of the 64th Fighter Air Corps ...
      As for the experience of the experience of the Korean war, the same story happened with the experience of the combat use of army aviation in Afghanistan.
      Despite all the objections of specialists, the "Arbat commanders" transferred the army aviation from the ground forces to the air force.
      Then, of course, I had to return it after breaking firewood in the war on 08.08.08/XNUMX/XNUMX.
    3. creak
      creak April 17 2016 19: 52
      +1
      The article also does not say that our pilots fought not only on the MIG-15, but also on the LA-11, (armed with ShVAK quick-firing guns). This was the last combat use of these fighters ...
      These events are reflected in the memoirs of the GSS S. Kramarenko, who fought in Korea as part of the 64th Fighter Air Corps ...
      As for the experience of the experience of the Korean war, the same story happened with the experience of the combat use of army aviation in Afghanistan.
      Despite all the objections of specialists, the "Arbat commanders" transferred the army aviation from the ground forces to the air force.
      Then, of course, I had to return it after breaking firewood in the war on 08.08.08/XNUMX/XNUMX.
      As they say, stupidity is not a lack of mind - it is such a mind ...
  9. v.yegorov
    v.yegorov April 17 2016 11: 17
    +1
    [quote] And saving them from mistakes - we ultimately bring them good.
    [Quote]
    Very true thought. No wonder Putin hinted - they say, I’ll hit forward, I’ll bring
    you a lot of good and well-being in the air.
  10. Resistance
    Resistance April 17 2016 12: 08
    0
    At the second stage of the war (autumn 1951 d), the South Korean government received the support of the "UN forces". This, of course, was a euphemism: there were no other United Nations forces other than American in this part of the world at that time.


    The North Korean offensive would have ended in complete defeat, if not for the Turkish brigade. The combat stability of the Turks (which you just can’t learn from the Russians) turned out to be at a high level, and they saved the situation, fresh American forces approached and the offensive began to the north.
  11. Verdun
    Verdun April 17 2016 13: 54
    +2
    There is nothing about the fact that at first the MiG-15 could not compete on equal terms with the F-86 Saber - on the MiG there were no locators from the word at all
    There were no locators on either the Saber or the MiG-15. The American had a radio rangefinder, that's right, but the MiG only had an optical sight. But our ground radars worked well. I read where - I don't remember now that during the night interception of the B-29, our fighter, guided by a ground-based radar, found an American bomber in the dark only when it hit the gun carriage against the rear gunner's cabin. The shooter opened fire with fright and then our pilot was able to clarify the location of the bomber by flashes and destroy it. And you can simply save the United States. Do not fight with Russia.
    1. sibiryouk
      sibiryouk April 17 2016 19: 44
      -3
      On the F-86A, F-86E, F-86F there was a RadLok / APG-5C range finder combined with an AN / APG-30 search radar. Infa from the book "All the jet aircraft of the Korean War".
  12. B-15
    B-15 April 17 2016 14: 40
    +5
    [quote = Verdun] [quote] And you can save the USA simply. Do not fight with Russia. [/ quote]
    Any disobedience of Russia to the United States will set an example. And this is fraught with a sharp nullification of the replenishment of the US budget from other countries. Not obedience is not acceptable in any way.
    So, whatever one may say, we won’t be able to convince the Americans not to touch us. Alas.
    Therefore, you must always be ready to give change. So much so that the damage would not be acceptable.
  13. realist
    realist April 17 2016 19: 01
    +2
    Perhaps the participants in the events are still alive, and not only those (Angola and others) should be invited to these parts in part and let them share their experience, at least as a way of raising morale and patriotism.
  14. 2nd 12th
    2nd 12th April 17 2016 21: 13
    +1
    I read somewhere that the "UN forces" in Korea included the formations of Australia and Great Britain. And there were quite a few Australians there.
  15. Kostya Andreev
    Kostya Andreev April 17 2016 23: 59
    +3
    Quote: FooFighter
    Foofighter

    I’ll try to explain to you the difference in armament between the MIG and SABR. Imagine that you were kicked ten times on the head with fists and once with a sledgehammer, that is, even if the sledgehammer doesn’t hit the head but gets to other parts, then you still won’t be able to fight.
    1. Foofighter
      Foofighter April 19 2016 10: 12
      -4
      I’ll try to explain to you that they do not shoot large shots at small nimble birds (which hurt, and which do not fly on exploding kerosene).

      Even one bullet killed the pilot in this small plane completely.
  16. Kostya Andreev
    Kostya Andreev April 18 2016 00: 05
    +3
    It seems to me that under Foofighter, hiding our old friend (who changed many names), who has his own alternative point of view, on all issues, and constantly gets cons, for boorish behavior, and not the ability to present facts and argue reasonably.
    As he now compares planes and weapons of one period in one place, then juggles and cites the technique of another period as an example, then when the arguments are over he attracts bearded guys in jeeps as an example. etc.
    1. Foofighter
      Foofighter April 19 2016 10: 16
      -3
      Kostya, don’t get your price. I am not familiar with you. And do not turn everything upside down like Aspid, by the way he is rude here, looking at him and you there too.
  17. Kentucky
    Kentucky April 18 2016 06: 47
    -5
    Yeah ... if not the Americans on their inferior..perfect planes .. We would have to feed the 50 millionth Korea .. and the kimesens had mamons three times more in girth .. and would die from obesity .. So they saved America kimirsenov from obesity .. and the socialist world has not lost such a valuable acquisition.
  18. Mikhail Matyugin
    Mikhail Matyugin April 18 2016 09: 45
    +3
    Quote: Reptiloid
    I can’t believe that American presidents can be saved from mistakes - nature is very mean
    Actually, modern politics as a whole is always very dirty and mean, so there is nothing for the right, honest people to do in it.

    Quote: FooFighter
    This is only 2 (two) cases during the whole war, when it was so lucky (and the politicians embellished). Please provide statistics on how many holes there were in all 333 Soviet MiGs shot down during the entire war and in even more Chinese shot down. After all, they fell in the North Korean controlled territory, it should not be difficult ...
    In addition to the rate of rate of air guns / machine guns, there was also a factor in the training of pilots, according to which the Korean and Chinese comrades were inferior in the strongest way to the Americans. Moreover, the Americans very often tried to identify the Soviet instructor in the link and tie him in battle, while the other three planes were quickly shot down. In the case when the pilots' qualifications were clearly high and there was reason to suspect that the entire link consisted of Soviet pilots, the Yankees often just tried to get out of the battle.
    1. Foofighter
      Foofighter April 19 2016 10: 33
      -2
      Only aces could shoot down the F-86 with such a MiG rate of fire, and that was with great difficulty. When they were replaced in Korea by ordinary combatant pilots, losses increased many times over. Moreover, the aces were replaced by beginners at once, so of course they could not transfer their combat experience to practice and at first hide their newcomers from the action of American aces and just experienced pilots.
      Beginners could not comb out these small and nimble American lice with their large scallops, even having 1,5 times greater thrust-weight ratio, and they themselves died in whole units.
      Having arranged this bloodletting by the Soviet Air Force, the aces had to be returned, and with all the absurdity of such a replacement, they didn’t do it right away - it means it was planned ...
      On the F-86 with its weapons, on the contrary, almost any pilot could fly and shoot.

      Now Aspid will "creep up" and with this change of flight personnel will again blame everything on one and only Dementev, shielding his gang-watering can ... bully
  19. iouris
    iouris April 18 2016 15: 14
    +2
    Collapse and divide the USSR (Russia) - a state that was a counterweight to the United States and its ideology - the best way to stimulate adventure in world politics.
  20. Ruby
    Ruby April 18 2016 21: 51
    +1
    Quote: sibiryouk
    On the F-86A, F-86E, F-86F there was a RadLok / APG-5C range finder combined with an AN / APG-30 search radar. Infa from the book "All the jet aircraft of the Korean War".

    On the fence, the same thing happens.
    The article, in my opinion, is about nothing at all. So the author pulled something in some places and blinded something like that.
    In my opinion, the best book about the actions of our aviation in that war is "Red Devils in the Skies of Korea". Author Igor Seydov.
    The book is boring, written in dry language, but there are a lot of facts, a lot of memories of our pilots. And a complete chronology of hostilities starting with the actions of Korean aviation, and ending with a complete list of our losses. Recommend.
    And by the way, there was no radar on Sabre. there was a radio range finder, which ours was removed from the downed and sent to Moscow for study. Subsequently, the materials received formed the basis of our sights. By the way, at one time, work was even underway to copy Saber in order to establish its release. This is the question that there was probably a really bad plane if they were going to copy it :)
    1. Foofighter
      Foofighter April 20 2016 14: 01
      0
      This is to the question that some TsAGI did not even copy the profile of its wing ... More precisely, it did not allow the installation of the same or similar on Soviet aircraft. They ignored their similar experience and the American was left lying around under their feet ...

      pests were sitting not only among those who were responsible for making decisions on equipping aircraft with an inadequate task with low-speed weapons and with very limited ammunition

      Therefore, Soviet fighters continued to fly with aerodynamic crests on the wing until the appearance of aircraft with variable sweep, when it became completely impossible to get out of the laminar swept profiles, because you can’t turn the crest while shifting the wing lol ...

      More crap with sights, not only with weapons and aerodynamics (many more crap for what). For example, any American fighter could work simultaneously on the ground for air targets, but not for Soviet ones request

      Stalin put things in order since 1937 in the country alone, Beria helped him in this. To clean all these two people were not able. By the end of the Korean War, by the way, neither one actually survived (Beria was shot right after the arrest) ...
  21. Vasili09
    Vasili09 April 19 2016 11: 48
    -5
    the article is unintelligible nonsense, starting from assessing the situation in general, ending with the contribution of our fighter aircraft to victory ... although victory is strongly said, just a contribution
    it so happened that the northerners attacked the southerners and as a result, the southerners moan under the yoke of imperialism, and the northerners are immensely happy fighting off from the aggressive southerners
    and in this the merit of the Soviet and Chinese comrades is accepted
    but the losses of the Americans in the air were mainly from the air defense, the participation of Soviet pilots, let's say, was severely limited by the conditions of use, they simply were not there, there were some "vacationers who bought equipment in the Voentorg"
    therefore, they did not fly much south and tried not to shine, so it was the Americans who dominated the air, making much more sorties and losses, respectively, but there was no talk of any defeat
    Well, Obama does not regret that someone was defeated, but there is no clear plan what to do after this defeat, Churchill, how could it be without him and his Fulton’s speech, but to be like patients of a caravan house is not the best solution
  22. serguchcho
    serguchcho April 19 2016 13: 05
    0
    For some reason, it seems to me that after Syria the Americans, though they will be luring, they will beware of meeting with our army.
  23. LeftPers
    LeftPers April 19 2016 13: 07
    +1
    Very interesting, thanks for the work.
  24. Old warrior
    Old warrior April 19 2016 14: 03
    0
    Probably regularly arrange such days of the week ... wink
  25. Ancient hun
    Ancient hun April 19 2016 15: 01
    +2
    Wonderful! You need to know the history and propagandize, and according to it, "American spammers" have always been in the anus!
    On account of the advantage of the "Migov" over the "Sabers", they noted and tried to balance in the same war, at least in terms of weapons.
    Their pilots, in the majority, refused to take off to intercept "Migov" precisely because of the lack of cannons on their cars, and already in the air, they sometimes flew away. Exactly! It was like that, I read in the memoirs of their veterans of that war.
    1. Foofighter
      Foofighter April 20 2016 04: 02
      -1
      In Russian? Naive ... they transferred you like that.
  26. Ruby
    Ruby April 19 2016 16: 42
    +3
    Our result of that war was 109 pilots who died directly in the battles, 16 were not casualties, about 30 people died in hospitals from wounds. Probably no need to talk. that a downed plane is far from always equal to a dead pilot. The Americans were serious opponents, and in the 52nd year, when Kozhedub's division was withdrawn, and the Air Defense Corps was introduced instead, ours suffered very serious losses, and essentially lost air supremacy over North Korea.
  27. piterpen
    piterpen April 20 2016 00: 36
    +2
    How much more can you argue here? There are open, well-known reliable sources on the air war in Korea in the Russian and English Wikis. Here is a compilation of quotes:
    "Among other factors that helped the southern coalition maintain parity in the air, there was a successful radar system (due to which the MiGs began to install the world's first radar warning systems developed by the Soviet lone inventor V. Matskevich), better stability and controllability at high speeds and altitudes, as well as the use of special suits by the pilots. ” Saber "had approximately the same flight characteristics. The MiG-15 had an advantage in vertical maneuverability and armament, yielding to the Saber in avionics and horizontal maneuverability. An important role was played by the operational situation in the Korean theater of operations - Soviet pilots were forbidden to pursue the enemy over the sea or territory. South Korea.In addition, the main goal of the Soviet pilots was not the destruction of the F-86, but the attack of American attack aircraft. On the other hand, MiGs operated over their own territory, where US aircraft were constantly exposed to the threat of anti-aircraft fire. An important advantage for MiGs was that they were based on airfields in China, as a result, US pilots were forbidden to destroy MiG-29s on the ground and generally attack MiGs over Chinese territory. Squadron commander Sergei Kramarenko, who won 15 air victories in Korea, described the tactics of the sides as follows:

    "The MiG had superior climb rate, while the Saber had better horizontal maneuverability, especially at low altitudes ..."
    According to American data, 16 B-29s were lost from the actions of enemy fighters, according to Soviet data, 69 of these aircraft were shot down, according to ACIG, in the first two years of the conflict, 44 B-29s were shot down by Soviet pilots, taking into account decommissioned aircraft. In addition, 2-3 B-29s were shot down by the Chinese and North Koreans on Yak-9 piston aircraft. The American side stated that 792 MiGs and 108 other aircraft were shot down, with the loss of only 78 F-86s (loss ratio 10: 1). However, one unconfirmed source claims that the U.S. Air Force has recently recognized 230 losses out of 674 F-86s deployed in Korea, while the Soviet side claimed 1106 air victories and 335 downed MiGs., While in China, People’s The Air Force Liberation Army (PLAAF) reported 231 combat losses, mainly the MiG-15, and 168 other aircraft. The number of victories and losses of the air forces of North Korea remains unknown. Since each side provides its own statistics, it is difficult to judge the real state of things.
    At present, Russian researcher Igor Seydov cites Soviet statistics of air battles (well, of course, the most truthful in the world), according to which the loss ratio was 1: 3,4 in favor of Soviet aircraft, that is, 3,4 downed fighters all types of aircraft (fighters, attack aircraft, bombers, reconnaissance) UN aviation.
    And, perhaps, the MiG-15 would not have been the MiG-15, if "A new stage in the development of the domestic aircraft industry came with the purchase of Rolls-Royce turbojet engines Derwent V and Nin in England"
    1. Foofighter
      Foofighter April 20 2016 03: 15
      +1
      The losses of the Chinese Air Force were XNUMX times more than the Soviet times. The losses of the Americans were still from anti-aircraft fire.
      1,7: 1 for the USSR Air Force and 1,3: 1 for the Chinese according to F-86, 3,4, taking into account all types

      The Soviet Air Force shot down more than 2 times in the first years of the war, the Americans shot down 2 times more in its last year from the summer of 1952.

      There is no need to argue that the MiG allegedly "surpassed" the Saber in armament in Wikipedia is now being monitored as well as to ensure that the practical ceiling of the Su-25 is indicated at 7000, they say it could not, well, the Su-25 could not climb to the height at which it went a naked Boeing, although on the contrary there it has the highest speed and there it was detected by the radar.
    2. Foofighter
      Foofighter April 20 2016 04: 19
      0
      Quote: piterpen
      An important advantage for the MiGs was that they were based on airfields in China, as a result, US pilots were forbidden to destroy the MiG-15 on the ground and generally attack MiGs over the territory of China.

      Most of the MiGs were shot down during takeoff or landing at airfields in China. This is about "security" and the fact that something was forbidden to American pilots.
      On the last day of the war, immediately after the armistice, the Americans over China shot down the IL-12 on which pilots returned from Port Arthur to the USSR
    3. Foofighter
      Foofighter April 20 2016 10: 52
      0
      The Americans also bought these engines in England, and they also got German engines and specialists in them. In the F-86 there was a German engine, in the F-9F the same as on the MiG-15, and without modifications
      The Nene engine was an alternative, and not one.
      Derwent-5 was not used in the USSR, it was "fighter" according to the English classification, but this division no longer made sense in the jet era ...
      When developing the F-86, the Americans did not understand this and made a mistake with the concept of choosing an engine.
      1. Foofighter
        Foofighter April 20 2016 10: 58
        0
        The British "socialist government of Attlee" did not do any favor by selling them, since other technologies were transferred to England in exchange. But all the same, with the creation of its thermonuclear weapons, this country was very late, and with the missile it did not succeed at all.
      2. The comment was deleted.
    4. Foofighter
      Foofighter April 20 2016 11: 59
      0
      the entry of "as-always-excellent" weapons in "flight characteristics" characterizes this encyclopedia ...
  28. piterpen
    piterpen April 20 2016 02: 07
    0
    "The peculiarity of" Soviet statistics "is that the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation has declassified the primary data on the losses of the Air Force in the Korean conflict. That is, 335 lost aircraft - the figure is accurate, if not absolutely, then close to that."

    Probably the USSR Ministry of Defense? May be so. But somehow it is hardly believed that the Russians and Americans did not try to underestimate their losses in this war. And I really can’t believe that the USSR did not hide its losses, but the United States underestimated of course.
    I didn’t read about rescuers. It’s interesting to read.
  29. Reptiloid
    Reptiloid April 20 2016 04: 25
    0
    I read all the comments. I learned a lot about the topic, which I didn’t expect to find anywhere. All of them supplemented the article.
  30. Rusfaner
    Rusfaner April 20 2016 08: 33
    +1
    And here, in Alma-Ata, there is a (live) pilot who fought in Normandy-Niemen, then in Korea, shot down Sabers, near Fergana tried to "reach" Powers (the next day he found out that he was shot down after all) ... Name: Zhovty Vasily Leontievich, he is 97 years old.
  31. Mikhail Matyugin
    Mikhail Matyugin April 20 2016 11: 13
    0
    Quote: piterpen
    According to American data, 16 B-29 was lost from the actions of enemy fighters, according to Soviet data, 69 of these aircraft were shot down, according to ACIG, in the first two years of the conflict, Soviet pilots shot down 44 B-29, taking into account decommissioned aircraft. In addition, the 2-3 B-29 was shot down by the Chinese and North Koreans on Yak-9 piston aircraft.
    By the way, it may very well be that all the data is correct.
    16 downed B-29 are those that were directly inundated from fighter attacks.
    44 shot down - this figure, taking into account those "super-fortresses" that did not reach the house as a whole, i.e. were damaged in battles or were attacked a second time separately, out of order, following home.
    And 69 downed B-29s - this figure is apparently estimated, which includes damaged vehicles that were broken off from the system, which could begin to lose altitude, smoke, and their Soviet pilots counted as downed, although they reached their home airfields (but at the same time they could crash or get irreparable damage during landing, despite the fact that they were not considered as "combat losses").

    Quote: Aspeed
    the Americans rescued all their stories about all 114 aircraft lost amusingly their rescue service, which reported more than 1000 pilots rescued from the territory of North Korea
    Incidentally, this figure is true! The fact is that the rescue service saved and took into account ALL pilots - not only fighters, but also bombers and attack aircraft, and even those who made an emergency landing and had to be evacuated. And how much is the crew of Super Fortress? 11-12 people. If approximately 40 superstresses are lost - this is already about 500 people.
  32. Mikhail Matyugin
    Mikhail Matyugin April 21 2016 13: 14
    +1
    Quote: Aspeed
    The Americans themselves evaluated their losses immediately after the conflict in 4000 machines. But the more time passes, the better American statistics :)

    According to Soviet data, pilots of the 64th corps, mainly in the fifteenth, flew 64.000 sorties and in 1182 air battles shot down 1106 UN aircraft. The losses of the Soviet Air Force itself amounted to at least 335 MiGs and 120 pilots. OVA fighters fought 366 battles, in which they destroyed 271 enemy aircraft, losing 231 of their aircraft and 126 pilots.

    While the losses of the Soviet, or rather the air forces of all communist countries, are estimated by the Americans in 827 aircraft (apparently including heavily damaged aircraft), and the available declassified documents of the USSR confirm the loss of 566 downed.

    According to other USSAF estimates, US Marine Corps and US Navy aircraft shot down 954 Soviet, Chinese and North Korean aircraft, including 827 MiG-15.

    The combat losses of the US Air Force according to their data amounted to 138 aircraft. Another loss of five vehicles said the fleet and marines. But here, apparently, exclusively knocked-down cars in battle and without other UN forces are apparently included.

    More interesting data: the "fifteenth" often had to meet with F-84E and F-84G Thunderjet fighter-bombers. Their pilots claim 8 shot down MiGs.

    Americans admitted loss in aerial battles 18 F-84 and 46 for other reasons. How can I not remember the battle 9 September 1952, when the pilots of the 726 IAP shot down 14 of these aircraft (for each of the downed vehicles there are confirmations in the form of serial numbers)... Those. it turns out, if you believe the Americans, that in only one battle the forces of the communist bloc shot down almost all the "Thunderbolts" officially confirmed as lost in air battles.

    In total, according to Soviet data, the fighters of the 64th corps destroyed 178 Thunderjets, and the Chinese and Koreans - 27. The truth is apparently somewhere in between - and ours overestimated their victories for a number of reasons, and the Americans, for obvious reasons, greatly underestimated their losses ...
    1. Foofighter
      Foofighter April 21 2016 21: 11
      0
      We can argue differently - the war went on for 3 years, the aircraft of the United States and its satellites were numerically superior to the Soviet-Chinese on average 3-4 times, so their losses were 3,4 times higher, otherwise the aircraft of one of the parties during this time stacked on another ...

      Who is UTB who is busy with the minuses? bully
  33. Foofighter
    Foofighter April 22 2016 03: 49
    0
    Quote: Aspeed
    + 1,

    "+1" - What are you, Herr-political officer of the State Department, twitching ... Having entered the site at 21:00 Moscow time, you first of all put the minuses under all yesterday's comments that you could reach, even under the one in which you were your own RATE OF CLIMBING and WEAPONS MiG-15 washed away, and to which you certainly did not answer. bully ... But after the mention of "151" after dr. adik immediately remembered about "minengeshoss"by ... Saber :-) the quote below. Vryatli this time it was one of your friends, since" it coincided "... The shoulder straps of the" army general "do not press?
    If you have already been "explained" about the lack of rate of fire of the MiG-15, it is understandable why you immediately fell off the chain from a low start ... lol
    Quote: Aspeed

    To shoot down a Saber class fighter was enough on average
    1,2-1,3 37 mm H-37 projectile either
    ...
    2,8-3,7 20 mm minengeshoss MG-151

    Throughout the war, only one F-86 reached the base with a 37mm hit ... Bad gun - it was necessary to put 57mm ...
    Where does 9 seconds of "constant shooting" come from? Not to mention the fact that "the ammunition is not important" ... N-37 is exactly what "does not count", because the steep trajectory is different from 23mm and it shook a lot - it knocked down the aiming 23mm
    your calculator looks like a curve no matter how you look ...

    When the statistics will be on the presence of 12,7 holes for 333 downed MiGs and not only for those two political ones lucky (like that of the F-86)?

    Quote: Aspeed

    Yeah. He shot the first hare at age 12.
    Yeah, but from a karamultuk you can hit a helicopter.
    But no one asked about it

    Out of 23mm? And he is you?
    you already had an answer about a helicopter with a wick picture ...
    about the pilot and 12,7 they asked you

    Quote: Aspeed
    E.G. Pepelyaev, ...

    And how was this pea able to bring down 335 of only Soviet MiGs (excluding Chinese)?
    12,7 Mi-24 helicopter gondolas (in the beginning it was about them, and not just about Browning and shahid-mobili) that’s it, peas ... The cannons have recently been set up trying to refuse to produce anti-tank Mi-28 and Ka-50/52
    Pepeliaev "was in the party," as she said, so someone from yours in your memoirs wrote for him ...
    1. Foofighter
      Foofighter April 22 2016 03: 55
      0
      And now - once again about FASTING:

      Where was it supposed to be enough? The "rate of fire" of the MiG-15 interceptor was significantly less even than that of the piston La-9/11 (which the N-37 did not carry) and 1,5 times less than that of the Yak-3P.
      The ammunition in general is MUCH MUCH less
      Moreover, due to an increase in flight speed in Korea by 1,5 times in comparison with the piston era, which means turn-around speed and high braking of bullets / shells in the air, the MiG-15 tracks began to write out completely relativistic curves when firing - bullets / shells flew only 2-3 times faster than the one who shot.
      The Soviet pilots cursed at the insufficient rate of fire and ammunition in the Second World War, but here ...
      Maneuvering for the possibility of opening fire on the MiG-15 was completely different, as was its conduct.
      In connection with this, the Americans increased the rate of fire of each aircraft Browning (out of 6) by 1,8 times and the number of their trunks on the F-86 increased by 51 times compared to the P-2. And at about this level (like the anti-aircraft guns), their rate of fire on fighters is maintained all the time.

      The war in Korea was secret, not all Trotskyite wreckers were shot in the USSR in 1937, and such political leaders with the Specialists would (and did) make problems for trying to make this (problems with the MiG-15 rate of fire) publicized not only to the pilots but also to their families. ..

      Before the perestroika, they also took and reduced the rate of fire and ammunition at times on the MiG-29 and Su-27 compared to the MiG-23, again simply increasing the caliber compared to the American one and a half times ...

      Bad "Taking care of America" Hsien Zampolit-Asp (Aspeed) ...
  34. The comment was deleted.
  35. BarakHuseynovich
    BarakHuseynovich April 30 2016 17: 41
    0
    Why did the F-86 need a radio range finder for the sight and the irradiation device was so critical for the MiG-15 in Korea if the 12,7mm supposedly hit only 200 meters?
  36. Monster_Fat
    Monster_Fat 16 October 2016 15: 07
    0
    It is a very correct observation that "the United States is at war only for the sake of money." In fact, the entire so-called "culture" of the United States revolves around "success" and "money." Concepts such as: "conscience", "help", "self-sacrifice", "friendship", "brotherhood", etc. in the "culture" of the United States are completely absent, they were replaced by one concept - "BENEFIT", oddly enough, this even applies the most simple, human relationships ... even within the family.
  37. NordUral
    NordUral 21 February 2017 17: 39
    0
    More often they need to remind them. And then brought up on the victories of Hollywood, and on the direct lies of him. We must remember and know that wars do not win against us!