Military Review

The biggest victory of the Soviet submariners

38
The biggest victory of the Soviet submariners



16 April 1945, the submarine L-3 sunk the Nazi transport "Goya"

Underwater warfare as part of the Second World War throughout its entire length was marked by an unprecedented tragedy — almost more than the one that accompanied everything that happened on land. And it should be noted that, first of all, the blame for this lies on the German submariners - the “wolves of Doenitz.” It is clear that indiscriminately blaming for the violation of all and all conventions of all, without exception, the submariners of Nazi Germany would be wrong. But it is also not true to forget that it was they who unleashed an unlimited underwater war. And if they unleashed it, then they must also be held responsible for its consequences - and for the severity of retaliation, which was inevitable.

Alas, it was not only German naval sailors who had to pay bills, but all the people of Germany. Precisely so - as a tragic consequence of the actions of the German armed forces - and we need to consider the events that took place in the Baltic during the last months of the war. It was at this time that the Soviet submariners scored three major victories in the Great Patriotic War, and they also became the greatest tragedies for the German ships of that era. On January 30, the C-13 submarine under the command of captain 3-rank Alexander Marinesko sank the Wilhelm Gustloff liner with a 25 484 gross registered ton displacement (according to official data, 5348 people died, according to unofficial data, over 9000) In less than two weeks, the same C-13 sank the Steuben liner with a 14 690 displacement of gross registered tons (number of dead, according to various sources, from 1100 to 4200 people). And on April 16, the submarine L-1945 Frunzevets, commanded by Lieutenant Commander Vladimir Konovalov, sank the Goya transport with a gross tonnage of 3.

As a result of this attack, about 7000 people were killed along with vehicles that drowned just seven minutes after hitting the first of two torpedoes. In the current list of the largest marine disasters, the death of Goya comes first in the number of deaths, almost five times exceeding the legendary Titanic in this indicator. And only one and a half times - the Soviet hospital ship "Armenia": on board this ship, sunk by the Nazi on November 7, 1941 aviation, killed about 5000 people, the vast majority of wounded and paramedics.

The Goya attack was the culmination of the last, eighth expedition of the L-3 Frunzevets submarine during the Great Patriotic War. She went to him on March 23 from the Finnish port of Turku, where Soviet submarines from the brigade of submarines of the Red Banner Baltic fleet based since September 1944. By this time, it was already considered the most productive among Soviet submarines in the total number of sunken ships: by the end of February 1945, their account with the L-3 exceeded two dozen. True, most of them were not sunk by torpedoes, but by mines: the boat was an underwater mine layer. Nevertheless, all victories counted, and L-3, on which the second commander was replaced during the war (the first, 3rd-rank captain Petr Grishchenko, went on promotion at the end of February 1943, transferring command to his assistant Vladimir Konovalov, who served on the boat since 1940), confidently beat the leaders in the number of sunken ships.


The crew of the L-3 together with the commander Peter Grishchenko. Photo: Wikipedia.org

On the eighth, the boat went to the area of ​​Danzig Bay: the operation of the German fleet "Hannibal", the purpose of which was to hastily evacuate German troops and refugees from East Prussia and from the occupied lands of Poland, where the Red Army had already entered, was in full swing. Even such catastrophic losses as the sinking of the Wilhelm Gustloff and Steuben C-13 transports could not interrupt it. And, despite the fact that the circumstances of their death directly pointed to the danger of using for evacuation of civilians ships in camouflage colors, accompanied by warships, the Goya transport came out on its fifth and final campaign as part of Hannibal. . And almost immediately came to the attention of the L-3, not the first day of waiting for ships on the northern approaches to the Danzig Bay. Previous attempts to attack convoys that were moving from there did not succeed for various reasons, and therefore, when the Goya transport appeared in the evening twilight, accompanied by two guard, the boat commander gave the command to attack the convoy. The boat went after the target in a surface position, because the underwater speed did not allow it to catch up with the transport, and shortly before midnight two torpedoes fired at it from a distance of 8 cable (just under one and a half kilometers). After 70 seconds on board the boat saw two powerful explosions: both torpedoes hit the target. Seven minutes later, the Goya transport, splitting at the site of the torpedo hit, went to the bottom. A total of 183 passengers and crew members managed to escape - they were picked up by other vessels.

The Soviet submarine left the site of the attack unhindered: shocked by the tragedy, the escort teams rushed to the aid of the few survivors, and the five depth charges dropped clearly for the battlefield, far from the L-3. On the way to the base, the submarine attacked the enemy convoys several more times, but these attacks did not bring any results. 25 April “Frunzevets” returned to the base and didn’t go out on military campaigns anymore. A month after Victory, July 8 1945, commander of the guard boat, captain of 3 rank Vladimir Konovalov, was awarded the title Hero of the Soviet Union "for exemplary performance of command, personal courage and heroism shown in battles with the German fascist invaders." Both in the Baltic and beyond, it was well understood that the boat commander deserved this rank a long time ago, but since he commanded the submarine only from 1943, he had already taken the Guard ship under his arm (the title was given to the 1 boat of March of the same year), the main factor was drowning "Goya."

In post-war studies of foreign experts, and in domestic historical The literature of the last two decades has been fashionable to call the deaths of giants such as Goya, Wilhelm Gustloff and Steuben, nothing more than the crimes of Soviet submariners. At the same time, the authors of such allegations completely forgot that the sunken vessels could not be considered hospital or civilian under any diligence. All of them marched as part of military convoys and had Wehrmacht and Kriegsmarine military personnel on board, all had military camouflage and airborne anti-aircraft weapons and had no red cross on board or on the deck. And, therefore, all three were a legitimate target for submariners of any country of the anti-Hitler coalition.

In addition, you need to understand that from a submarine any ship, unless it has noticeable hospital signs under any conditions and does not go alone, looks like an enemy ship and is viewed as a legitimate target. And that on board the Goya, which before serving in the Hannibal served as a target for training wolf Doenitz torpedoes, are not only military, but also refugees, the L-3 commander could only guess. Could - but was not required. Therefore, having considered a large transport under the escort of two guard, it was logical to assume that the ship is a military one and is a legitimate goal.

... Today, the cabin of the L-3 submarine occupies an honorable place in the Victory Park exposition on Poklonnaya Hill in Moscow. Here she was transported from Liepaja, where she stood before the beginning of the 1990-s near the building of the 22-th brigade of submarines. It appeared there at the beginning of 1970-x, when the legendary Frunzevets ended his military service, passing all the usual stages for a diesel-electric submarine: real military as a warship until 1953, then reclassification to training and service in that capacity until 1956 of the year, then disarmament and service as a training station in the struggle for survivability, and finally, the exclusion of February 15 and 1971 of the year from the fleet lists for cutting into metal. The ship survived its famous commander for four years: Vladimir Konovalov died in 1967, rising to the rank of rear admiral and the post of deputy head of the forge cadre of Russian submariners - Lenin Komsomol Higher Naval Scuba Diving School. And one has to think that his stories about military service and victories won over a dozen submariner students in the justice of the chosen path.
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38 comments
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  1. Sascha
    Sascha April 17 2016 06: 41
    +30
    Germany has not experienced even a fraction of the nightmare into which it has plunged Europe. And when the mourners on duty begin to groan about the suffering of the German people, one just wants not to refute it, but simply to say: "Not enough."
    1. Litsvin
      Litsvin April 17 2016 12: 55
      +22
      RUSSIAN MOTHER MARIA FROLOVA LAYED 8 OF THEIR SONS ON THE ALTAR OF OUR SLAVIC VICTORY !!! ABOUT WHAT THERE THOU DIED ON 3 SHIPS GERMANS WE SHOULD BE SORRY ??? !!!
      It says in the Bible: "He who sows the wind will reap the storm."
      The Germans bought into the sweet promises of the American Jydomason clans, who had sponsored Hitler since 1922 and eventually brought him to power in 1933. They brought him to power in order to do with Russia what they failed to do from 1917 to 1925, when Russia began to be ruled by the Zhidomason (Blanco-Bronstein) junta, overthrown by Stalin in 1925-1926. Hitler's goal is the complete destruction of Russia as a historical, territorial-ethnic state formation of the Eastern Slavs, the use of territory and natural resources for the needs of the German nation and, naturally, will share the trophies with the "overseas patrons" from the United States. That's why they came here and committed genocide of our people.
      Then, when the war came to their house, they did not experience even a hundredth part of the suffering that befell the Eastern Slavs. Did a Slavic soldier burn down at least one village in East Prussia or Germany with people? Or drove 20 million Germans into concentration camps like Auschwitz or Dachau? No, we treated the Germans humanely, even despite the extremely cruel nature of the Nazi crimes against our people. As for the 25 thousand people who died at the Gustlov, Steuben and Goya, I feel sorry for them as a Christian, since 90% of them were civilians, even if they once welcomed Hitler and his ideas. But the command of Kringsmarine is to blame for the death of their people - all these "vessels" could not be considered civilian ships in accordance with international legislation on navigation - they went in a convoy warrant, including using anti-submarine maneuvers, were not marked as it should be for civilian ships. Moreover, if the Germans complied with the norms of copper-bearing navigation for these "troughs", our submariners would not sink obviously civilian passenger ships, even if they understood that not only civilians, but also military personnel could be on board. And so, our submariners surrendered what they were required by the military regulations and military duty - they opened fire on the ships, which, by all classification criteria, belonged to military transports. GERMAN MILITARY AUTHORITIES ARE GUILTED IN THE DESTRUCTION OF ITS OWNERS !!!
      1. robbihood
        robbihood April 17 2016 16: 35
        -7
        Ek you, respectable, sausages! Do not mix square with green.
    2. Andrey Petrov47
      Andrey Petrov47 April 18 2016 22: 56
      +1
      To water all newly-born fascists!
      Including Phonington!
  2. aszzz888
    aszzz888 April 17 2016 06: 49
    +15
    ... Today, the cabin of the submarine L-3 takes pride of place in the exposition of Victory Park on Poklonnaya Hill in Moscow.

    I believe that copies of the L-3, S-13 and other boats should be placed with the Germans, opposite the Merkelikha window. So that every morning, looking out the window, pulls the curtain and no more bad thoughts come into my head, regarding Russia! laughing
  3. itr
    itr April 17 2016 06: 53
    +7
    the camouflage on the ship is good, I did not immediately understand what is in the photo
  4. kig
    kig April 17 2016 07: 14
    +16
    “Triton Zero” or “Laconia order” - an order issued by the commander of the submarine forces of the German Navy Karl Doenitz September 17, 1942 to the commanders of all submarines. The order forbade the provision of assistance to passengers and crew of ships sunk by a submarine.

    Until 1942, the German Navy submarines after an attack by enemy ships took measures to help the survivors, which was considered necessary according to the rules of warfare (although, of course, this was not always done). On September 12, 1942, the U-156 submarine, attacking and sinking the Laconia ship, assisted the surviving crew members and passengers (there were about 2000 Italian prisoners, that is, Germany’s allies) aboard Laconia. During the rescue operation, which involved three more submarines and two ships (the German and Italian fleets), boats carrying several hundred rescued and leading boats in tow were attacked by U.S. airplanes. When they appeared, a large (2x2 meter) Red Cross flag was hoisted above the cabin. The pilots were aware of what was happening, but complied with the command. As a result of the attack, U-156 was seriously damaged, and one of the boats with the rescued was destroyed by a direct hit by a bomb.

    The day after the damage to U-156, that is, September 17, Admiral Dönitz, the commander of the submarine forces of the German Navy, who learned about the events, issued an order:

    It is forbidden to make any attempts to rescue the crews of sunken ships and vessels, that is, to catch sinking, transfer them to lifeboats, return inverted boats to normal position, and supply the injured with food and water. Salvation is contrary to the very first rule of warfare at sea, requiring the destruction of enemy ships and their teams.
    Orders for the capture of captains and chief mechanics remain in force.
    Save people only if they have important information for the boat.
    Be adamant. Remember - the enemy does not remember women and children when they bomb German cities.

    In 1946, in Nuremberg, an English prosecutor attempted to characterize the order as atrocious, requiring submarine commanders to deliberately destroy surviving crews and passengers. But the International Military Tribunal did not agree with such an interpretation, and the verdict on this charge said: “The Tribunal is of the opinion that the evidence does not establish, with the certainty required in this case, the fact that Dönitz intentionally ordered the death of people who escaped from the sunken ships ".
    1. Foofighter
      Foofighter April 17 2016 07: 35
      +9
      Marinesco boats of the XNUMXst series left their attack without crews. The latest at that time, and capable of changing the course of the war, interrupting communication in the Atlantic.
      Its outcome became predetermined only after the defeat of the Germans in Hungary.
  5. parusnik
    parusnik April 17 2016 07: 31
    +17
    In the post-war studies of foreign experts, and in Russian historical literature of the last two decades, it was fashionable to call the deaths of such giants as Goya, Wilhelm Gustloff and Stoiben nothing more than the crimes of Soviet submariners.... Well, we are criminals, and the Germans are victims ... Ah, Germans forgive us for the Goya, Wilhelm Gustloff and Stoiben, for the capture of Berlin ... for the defeat of Nazism ...
  6. Operator
    Operator April 17 2016 07: 32
    -1
    Is there a more detailed description of the circumstances surrounding the sinking of the Goya on the Internet?
    1. niki233
      niki233 April 17 2016 18: 52
      0
      did not try to write request in a search engine?
  7. midshipman
    midshipman April 17 2016 07: 44
    +9
    For the fascist atrocities on the territory of the USSR, it would be necessary to drown and destroy the fascist rabble even more intensively. Note none of the fascists, "respectable Germans" did not surrender en masse to the Red Army even at the end of the war. This is how strong the fascist ideology was about their superiority over other peoples and the right to destroy the Russians. I have the honor.
  8. demiurg
    demiurg April 17 2016 08: 03
    +5
    Quote: itr
    the camouflage on the ship is good, I did not immediately understand what is in the photo

    Warp camouflage. At one time it was very popular.
    But nothing is better than merging with the surrounding surface. Even in clear weather, our ships at a distance of 7-10 kilometers merge with the horizon, and in the darkness and fog you can even hear them first.
  9. Kazakh
    Kazakh April 17 2016 08: 38
    +2

    In the post-war studies of foreign experts, and in Russian historical literature of the last two decades, it was fashionable to call the deaths of such giants as Goya, Wilhelm Gustloff and Stoiben nothing more than the crimes of Soviet submariners.
    How are our criminals so and how are they (damned soldiers) so "acted in an environment of urgent need, requiring ethical and ambiguous decisions"
  10. Aaron Zawi
    Aaron Zawi April 17 2016 09: 28
    +6
    Konovalov was a very experienced submariner.
    Konovalov Vladimir (Wulf) Konstantinovich - commander of the guards submarine (submarine) "L-3" of the submarine brigade of the Red Banner Baltic Fleet, guard captain of the 3rd rank.
    Born on December 5, 1911 in the village of Reliable now Gulyaypolsky district of Zaporizhzhya region of Ukraine. Jew. In 1932 he graduated from the 3rd year of evening labor school at the Donetsk Mining Institute.In the Navy since 1932. In 1936 he graduated from the Naval College named after M.V. Frunze (Leningrad).
    March 18, 1943 V.K. Konovalov was appointed commander of the L-3 submarine. The ship was under repair throughout 1943. Until October 1944, the crew prepared the materiel for going to sea, conducted combat training. In October 1944, after repairs, the guards submarine, among the first, went out for operations in the southern part of the Baltic Sea, and under the command of the guard captain 3rd rank Konovalov V.N. made 3 military campaigns in the 1944-1945 campaigns, spent 92 days at sea. On the approaches to the enemy bases and on his naval communications, 50 mines were placed. After the mine laying, the commander acted actively, boldly and decisively attacked enemy ships and vessels with torpedoes, carried out 11 torpedo attacks and expended 32 torpedoes. Enemy data confirm the sinking of 2 transports and 1 motorboat by torpedo weapons, and 1 transport and 1 newest destroyer sank on mines, and a training artillery ship was severely damaged. So, on April 17, 1945, the mine-layer torpedoes sunk the enemy transport "Goya", with a displacement of 5230 gross tons, on which there were about 7000 soldiers and refugees.
    By the decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR of July 8, 1945, for exemplary performance of the combat missions of the command, personal courage and heroism shown in battles with the Nazi invaders, the guard captain of the 3rd rank Konovalov Vladimir Konstantinovich was awarded the title of Hero of the Soviet Union with the award of the Order of Lenin and medals "Gold Star".
  11. Sergey S.
    Sergey S. April 17 2016 09: 39
    +1
    I understand.
    And why Westerners howl that our submariners drowned women and children.
    And why woe-specialists are trying to prove that our submariners didn’t hit anyone, only unguarded and only ten times ...
    And even why it is the Russians who are to blame for all the troubles ...

    One thing I cannot understand, why use excessive epithets - "most", "first" ...
    Recently there was a topic about A.I. Marinesco burned out, and that now he is not "the best submariner"?
    Now Konovalov is "the most" or Grishchenko, who brought up "the best crew"?

    HEROES HAD VICTORY !!!
    And there is nothing to arrange them in some places.
    1. Captain nemo
      Captain nemo April 17 2016 12: 20
      0
      Quote: Sergey S.
      Recently there was a topic about A.I. Marinesco - burned out

      What do you mean by the word "burned out", have comments removed from it, or something else?
      1. Sergey S.
        Sergey S. April 17 2016 12: 51
        +3
        The title "a story about the criminal acts of the Soviet submariner AI Marinesko ..."
        Discussed Campaign and personality of Marinesco.
        It was indecent only the name. but it fully reflected the essence of the moment on a global scale.
        Now the topic is not detected ...

        If this is something like censorship, then it’s doubly wrong: let the foreign urods know that we are not afraid of these seemingly sensitive topics, and let our domestic urods know that they will not be let down.

        We should discuss any topics, even the most painful ones - this is the strength of today's Russia, it is important how to do it and, finally, to achieve the long-awaited VICTORY in the information war.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. kig
      kig April 17 2016 14: 54
      +6
      In fact, our submarine fleet as a whole during the war years did not really show the highest efficiency. There are many studies on this subject of varying degrees of bias and impartiality, but the numbers that are given in these studies cannot be gained. 170 boats took part in the hostilities, 81 of them were killed, ships and ships were sunk. 126. It is customary to assess damage by displacement, but our boats operated in areas where large targets were rarely encountered. So we take it in pieces.
      1. Captain nemo
        Captain nemo April 17 2016 21: 54
        -4
        Quote: kig
        So we take it in pieces.

        The sunk "Gustov" cannot be counted as "one piece", and the not sunken warship with all military equipment protecting it. Because the captain of the submarine turned out to be a coward and chose the wrong target for himself and his submarine crew.
        Expressed not where needed - a passenger ship guard ship, but a passenger ship itself.
        Otherwise, the participation of the country in the "Nuremberg trial" condemning others in "inhumanity" loses its meaning if you yourself have become like someone who was inhuman towards you or your relatives.
        Here, of course, a question may arise for the United States and England - how "human" they were in World War II. But you still had an order from Stalin that "we are liberating Germany from fascism, and not taking revenge on her for the grief caused to us." And such an order was announced to everyone before the entry of the Red Army into the territory of Germany.
  12. tolancop
    tolancop April 17 2016 10: 13
    +4
    Quote: FooFighter
    Marinesco boats of the XNUMXst series left their attack without crews. The latest at that time, and capable of changing the course of the war, interrupting communication in the Atlantic.
    Its outcome became predetermined only after the defeat of the Germans in Hungary.


    Thesis 1. Interruption of communications in the Atlantic can change the course of the war. It follows that:
    a) the decisive influence on the course of the war in Europe was exerted by supplies from the USA.
    b) if Germany closes supplies, it will cease defeat and begin to win.

    In a nutshell, Germany was defeated by the United States, and Russia ... so, somewhere a little bit ...

    Thesis 2. The outcome of the war became predetermined only after the defeat of the Germans in Hungary. It follows that:
    a) The outcome of the war was determined by the results of fighting on land, and not in the Atlantic.
    b) The question of "who is who" was resolved during November-February 1944-45 by the troops of the USSR.

    If in a nutshell, then Russia won Germany.

    Well, how to combine these theses?

    But you do not need to combine anything, as well as write nonsense. The latest German boats could only complicate the wiring of convoys, but nothing more.

    And "who-whom" was decided not in Hungary, but near Moscow, Stalingrad and Kursk. That is why the allies of the 2nd front was opened in June 1944 (before Hungary), since further it was possible to win and be late ...
    1. Foofighter
      Foofighter April 17 2016 20: 13
      +2
      These submarines would have interrupted communications across the Atlantic a little less than completely, and the Germans would have been able to stay on the Rhine in the West in the absence of these supplies. It’s even possible to keep the Ruhr.
      If it were not for the staunchness of Soviet troops in Hungary, the Germans would have thrown them beyond the Danube and then stabilized the Eastern Front along it. North they defended the Oder or the mountains.
      The Germans needed a counterstrike in Hungary in order to buy time for something ... this "something" was the completion of work on the uranium bomb, and their mass production due to the presence of uranium deposits in the Iron Ore Mountains was possible and expected immediately.
  13. VohaAhov
    VohaAhov April 17 2016 10: 41
    +3
    By this time, it was already considered the most productive among Soviet submarines in the total number of sunken ships: by the end of February 1945, their account with the L-3 exceeded two dozen.
    As for the "most effective" one, I agree, but "more than 20" sunken ships and ships of the enemy is debatable. Here are my details, if anyone can, correct:
    Sank 8 ships and ships of the enemy:
    1. Transport “C.F. Liljevalch” (Sweden, 1920) 18.08.42/10000/5513 (33 tons, XNUMX brt), (from torpedoes) (cargo ore) (+ XNUMX)
    2. sailing-motor schooner "Walter" (Germany) 18.08.42/177/XNUMX (XNUMX gb) (in land mines)
    3. Sailing-motor schooner "F. Bomke ”(Germany, the former Dutch“ Fliderwane 2 ”) 25.09.42/210/1943 (XNUMX brt) (in land mines) (In XNUMX it was lifted and put into operation)
    4. Transport "Hindenburg" (Germany) 19.11.42/7880/15 (XNUMX gt) (in land mines) (+ XNUMX)
    5. Transport "Grundsee" (Germany) 6.02.43 (866 gross vehicles) (in mines)
    6. Torpedo boat “T-34” (Germany, 1943) 20.11.44/1294/1754 (102,5/10 t., 3,25х32000х33 m., 4 hp, 1 knots., 105х2 - 2 mm, 37х1 - 4 mm , 4x1 and 20x2-3 mm, 533x67-XNUMX mm TA) (possibly on a British aviation bottom mine) (+ XNUMX)
    7. Transport “Henry Lutgens” (Germany) 30.01.45/1411/9 (XNUMX gross) (by mine) (+ XNUMX)
    8. Goya floating base (Germany) 17.04.45/5230/6220 (7028 gt) (killing from 2 to XNUMX people) (XNUMX torpedoes hit)
    It is possible that the sunken tanker Uno (430 gt) on 22.11.41/1142/1765, the Egerau transport (5.02.43 gt) and the Tristan transport (XNUMX gt) on XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX sank on the mines sank by the boat.
    The numbers in brackets after the plus are the number of deaths.
  14. PPD
    PPD April 17 2016 11: 05
    +1
    I didn’t check the data, but honestly. It’s wise to write to the author in the article itself.
    Not in the comments. Sometimes in the comments there is more information than in the article itself.
  15. Operator
    Operator April 17 2016 12: 59
    -1
    I cannot understand how it happened that on the former passenger ship "Wilhelm Gustloff" with a displacement of 25 thousand tons, German historians at the time of sinking number about 6000 people, and on the former cargo ship "Goya" with a displacement of five times less - about 7000 people ?

    At the same time, it is known for sure that before the sinking in April 1945, the Goya managed to make four flights, during which 19 people were evacuated (on average, about 785 people per flight).

    1. Operator
      Operator April 17 2016 23: 41
      +1
      On May 3, 1945, in the Baltic Sea, British aircraft sank the German passenger ship Cap Arkona, which had on board 475 members of the ship's crew and 4500 concentration camp prisoners, of which 350 people managed to escape.

      The Cap Arcona was sunk in the afternoon in the harbor of Lübeck. British aircraft carried out top-mast bombing with napalm bombs from a height of 15 meters from the level of the open upper deck of the ship, on which there were many prisoners in characteristic striped uniforms. The British planes jumping into the sea in low-level flight were shot from machine guns.

      The Cap Arcona was not part of the Navy and at the time of sinking had a white and black passenger color
  16. Sea Wolf
    Sea Wolf April 17 2016 17: 47
    +1
    In 1982 he was in practice in the 22nd submarine brigade in November-December. I saw this cabin. And we taught tactics submarines Lisin Sergey Prokofievich, also a Hero of the Soviet Union.
  17. kuz363
    kuz363 April 17 2016 19: 09
    0
    For some reason I remembered the poor "Kursk". How many different versions have I read before. Of course, the most popular - the Americans torpedoed. And convenient for power. It seems that no one is to blame. But by chance I came across an interesting article from 2010.
    http://www.novayagazeta.ru/inquests/2187.html
  18. tolancop
    tolancop April 17 2016 21: 04
    +3
    Quote: FooFighter
    These submarines would interrupt communication across the Atlantic a little less than completely, and the Germans would be able to stay on the Rhine in the West in the absence of these supplies to the Anglo-American armies ....
    The Germans needed a counterstrike in Hungary in order to buy time for something ... this "something" was the completion of work on the uranium bomb, and their mass production due to the presence of uranium deposits in the Iron Ore Mountains was possible and expected immediately.

    1. German "electric boats" were modern weapons and had a lot of innovations. The flip side of modernity and innovations is "childhood diseases", which significantly reduce efficiency. It takes time and a production base to fix "sores". There was no time for Germany, and the production base by the spring of 1945 had shrunk VERY noticeably.
    2. For some reason, it is accepted as an axiom that the Americans will calmly observe how the latest German submarines sink the allied transports. Meanwhile, the experience of previous years showed that the Anglo-Americans organized (and rather quickly) an effective anti-submarine service, after which the "Doenitz wolves" had a very sour experience. Incl. there is no reason to believe that the Americans would calmly watch the Germans drown their money. As well as the fact that the Anglo-Americans knew about the potential capabilities of the German boats and prepared appropriate opposition.
    3. In "Hitler's Submarine War" by Blair, more than one page is devoted to the myth of the possibility of a naval blockade of Britain. With figures proving that the Americans put the tonnage into operation much faster than the Germans had time to sink it. Again, no blockade works, even if you crack it.

    T.ch. German submariners could not have provided any turning point during the war. Firstly, due to the inability to stop the transatlantic convoys. And secondly, because the fate of the war was not decided at sea, but on land.

    And the atomic bomb of the Germans would not have saved ... There would have been more victims, but the end result would have been the same.
    For an approximate assessment of the capabilities of the Germans to massively produce atomic bombs, I recommend the author of the quoted post to briefly go over the technology of making atomic bombs. Uranium ore may be at least heaped up, but you cannot pile it into a bomb with a shovel, some operations are needed that require the development of technologies, energy, reagents, etc. "nonsense".
    If you are too lazy to study the chain, then at least take the number of atomic bombs from the USA that year in 1946. And this is in conditions of a highly developed industry, peaceful work and practically unlimited resources.
    1. Foofighter
      Foofighter April 18 2016 23: 23
      -2
      1-2-3 somehow convinced. These submarines had a qualitatively new level of technology and capabilities. There were few child failures in the Me-262 and V-2. After the sinking of Gustlov, they simply stood without crews.

      If you kept at the turn of the Rhine in the west and the Danube-Oder in the east - it would have completely saved.
      The United States did not possess German isotope separation technology, and transported ore from French Gabon.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  19. clidon
    clidon April 17 2016 21: 20
    -6
    That is, yes, we killed a lot of refugees, women and children. Not on purpose, but killed. And the conclusions: so cool! Are we well done?
    1. Captain nemo
      Captain nemo April 18 2016 01: 39
      -2
      Well, we are the "winners" and besides, we gave our not "allies", foreign land. And only after that we have the "right", like Stalin, to shout to the whole world in a place with Putin, that it is "we are only the winners", and all the others "shed less of their own blood than we did, in order to according to the results of the 2nd world "to cut off a larger piece of Poland than those who hoisted their" banner "over the Reichstag, removed in 1983.
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  20. KRIG55
    KRIG55 April 17 2016 21: 29
    0
    I see no reason for justification. There was a fierce war, the Reds killed the Blues and vice versa. The submarine commander does not always have the ability to determine who is in the enemy trough, and there is no time to figure it out. The enemy is the enemy and must be destroyed.
    1. Captain nemo
      Captain nemo April 17 2016 22: 23
      -4
      Quote: KRIG55
      The commander of the submarine does not always have the opportunity to determine who is in the enemy's trough, and there’s no time to figure it out.

      In 2016, there is time to understand that in 1945 for the captains of the submarine, it should have been clear from the very beginning that the German women and their children (their men were called up to the front for general mobilization) were a burden for the 3rd Reich.
      Stoked them?
      This means that they helped someone so that they would not feed the "extra" mouths, their enemies!
      2 million 100 thousand Germans were evacuated from East Prussia by sea. Well, what is there against this - one and a half, two tens of thousands of Germans?
      Was the German evacuation operation failed?
      A hundred times no, it was you who failed your "victory" in Nuremberg with your allies!
      1. Foofighter
        Foofighter April 18 2016 23: 40
        +2
        Almost all of them later died from a famine organized by the British in the western zone of occupation (4,5 million). It was much easier for the locals to survive than for refugees from the East.
        In the Soviet zone of occupation (from where they fled) there was no famine.
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  21. Operator
    Operator April 18 2016 00: 08
    -1
    On the question of the polygon conditions for the torpedo firing of the submarine C-13 under the command of Alexander Marinesko - on 30 of January 1945 of the year in the Gotenhofn area, the air temperature was minus 10 degrees Celsius, the wind force was 7 points, an ice slush formed in the sea, the metal parts of ships and vessels were covered with ice crust. A torpedo attack was carried out at night at 21 hour 10 minutes.

    Someone promised to give an example of firing range in similar conditions. am
    1. Captain nemo
      Captain nemo April 18 2016 01: 55
      -5
      You are crazy, like Captain A Morinescu, who has lost his mind after drinking.
      No one promised you "field tests" here. You invented everything yourself for your "officer's honor", just like Captain Morinescu. Which in 1990 was "posthumously" awarded the title of "Hero of the Soviet Union".
      Well, there he goes, with this "posthumous award" of the 1990 model.
      And no one promised you in this thread to give "an example of range shooting in similar conditions."
      1. Sergey S.
        Sergey S. April 18 2016 02: 27
        +6
        Quote: Captain Nemo
        You are crazy, like Captain A Morinescu, who has lost his mind after drinking.
        No one promised you "field tests" here. You invented everything yourself for your "officer's honor", just like Captain Morinescu. Which in 1990 was "posthumously" awarded the title of "Hero of the Soviet Union".
        Well, there he goes, with this "posthumous award" of the 1990 model.
        And no one promised you in this thread to give "an example of range shooting in similar conditions."

        1. The fact that A.I. Marinesco remade the surname in the Slavic fashion only emphasizes the attractiveness of our culture in the 1920-1930s. And do not scuffle about this.
        2. I think you are not familiar with the commanders of submarines. Otherwise, it would not have been written so humiliatingly - "lost his mind after drinking". There is no point in continuing this topic. Any decent person understands what is the responsibility of a submarine commander. even more so on the commander of a successful submarine.
        3. I'm not sure if you deliberately wrote "Hero of the Soviet Union" in small letters. But I want to note that there are many courageous in the virtual space - letters and electrons will endure everything, and the carriers of morality are far away ...
        4. About the road A.I. Marinesco already figured out, and appreciating his life's path as a warning to his descendants, they awarded him posthumously the highest title of the Motherland.
        This was no longer necessary for him. But this was done as a warning to those who did not realize and do not realize the essence of serving the Motherland and allow themselves to belittle the acts of HEROES.
        1. Captain nemo
          Captain nemo April 18 2016 14: 06
          -2
          Quote: Sergey S.
          1. The fact that A.I. Marinesco remade the surname in the Slavic fashion only emphasizes the attractiveness of our culture in the 1920-1930s. And do not scuffle about this.

          I didn’t know about it, and I don’t understand where I was "joking" about this?

          2. I think you are not familiar with submarine commanders.

          You think correctly, I did not serve in the Navy. But I have a very strong suspicion that some of the "submarine commanders", at best, were not their commanders.
          Otherwise, it would not have been written so humiliatingly - "lost his mind after drinking". There is no point in continuing this topic.

          Well there is no desire so do not continue.
          Any decent person understands the responsibility of a submarine commander. especially on the commander of a successful submarine.

          Are you yourself "decent" in your judgments?
          Or, again, on the "officer's honor" in the bushes?
          3. I'm not sure if you deliberately wrote "Hero of the Soviet Union" in small letters

          No, it was intentional because he did not have the right to carry this title posthumously after 1990.
          And I don't consider him a "hero".
          But I want to note that in the virtual space there are many courageous - letters and electrons will endure everything, and moral carriers are far away ...

          Here you are right, on the Internet we are all brave, but oh, how cowardly I will meet with my colleagues from among non-officers and ensigns.
          4. About the road A.I. Marinesco already figured out, and appreciating his life's path as a warning to his descendants, they awarded him posthumously the highest title of the Motherland.

          I figured it out so that those who did not award him a "hero of the Soviet Union" in 1945 were right, and who "awarded" him with this in 1990 are very wrong.
          This was no longer necessary for him. But this was done as a warning to those who did not realize and do not realize the essence of serving the Motherland and allow themselves to belittle the acts of HEROES.

          1990 is not such a bad age for me to agree with those who, according to the “tendencies”, “knew” that the USSR was doomed to “disintegration”, but did not tell me about it in the radio and TV newspapers.
          And why now "HERO" Yeltsin, on Putin's order, should be put on Yeltsin-Center, for privatization, which I did not even hint at in March 1991, but in his opinion "it does not belong to the revision."
          Yes, I will turn it inside out 10 times, the excesses will not be recognized that mine is no longer mine.
          1. Foofighter
            Foofighter April 18 2016 23: 50
            0
            Marinesco began to drink deafly after he knew how many civilians had died there.
            Before that, he just hooligan.
            See yourself do not get out ...
      2. Operator
        Operator April 18 2016 12: 54
        +1
        Do not cheat yourself - the first about the supposedly proving ground conditions of torpedo firing at "Wilhelm Gustloff" blurted out grantosos Miroslav Morozov in his opus "The Death" of Wilhelm Gustloff ": truth and speculation", then this mistake was picked up by other lovers of slandering the history of the Russian navy including a member registered on the topwar.ru portal under the nickname mina.

        Alexander Marinesko was awarded the title of Hero after all the circumstances of the battle were clarified and all guardians of the falsely understood morality in the war were removed from managing the affairs of the fleet. And the right was originally for Marinesco, who sank a warship, enlisted in the Navy, armed with artillery, painted in camouflage, marching as part of a convoy, not having the red cross on board and carrying hundreds of combat-ready military personnel.
        Those. Marinesco acted exclusively within the framework of international conventions on the conduct of war at sea.

        The fact that the Germans used civilians to cover the redeployment of their military personnel is a problem for the Germans.

        PS Submariners of all countries in WWII operated under conditions of increased stress. One way to relieve stress on the beach after a field trip is to drink alcohol - see the Das Boot movie.
        1. Captain nemo
          Captain nemo April 18 2016 14: 18
          -4
          Alexander Marinesko was awarded the title of Hero after all the circumstances of the battle were clarified

          Yes there wasn’t any battle there, even with a guard ship.
          It was just about the entire shooting of a ship on which A Morinescu not only noticed the anti-aircraft machine guns, but did not even read its name.
          And the right was originally for Marinesco, who sank a warship enlisted in the Navy, armed with artillery, painted in camouflage, marching as part of a convoy, not having the red cross on board and carrying hundreds of combat-ready military personnel

          He did not have such "rights" "iznochno".
          Well, who is that "Stirlets" who reported to him before the launch of the torpedoes that Gustov was in the Navy?
          1. Operator
            Operator April 18 2016 14: 39
            +2
            The hospital ship must have a clearly visible red cross on the sides and the upper deck, it is prohibited to follow the convoy. Vessels and ships that do not meet these requirements are permitted to be heated in accordance with conventions.

            The notorious Gustloff walked in a convoy and without red crosses.

            Other facts (enlistment in the Navy, artillery, combat-ready combatants aboard Gustloff) confirm the correct choice of the target for the attack - the largest ship in the convoy.
            1. Captain nemo
              Captain nemo April 18 2016 22: 39
              -2
              Quote: Operator
              The hospital ship must have a clearly visible red cross on the sides and the upper deck, it is prohibited to follow the convoy. Vessels and ships that do not meet these requirements are permitted to be heated in accordance with conventions.

              The notorious Gustloff walked in a convoy and without red crosses.

              Other facts (enlistment in the Navy, artillery, combat-ready combatants aboard Gustloff) confirm the correct choice of the target for the attack - the largest ship in the convoy.

              Did you see red from black in the night?
              Do not lie to the officer, because even at dusk, the human eye is no longer able to distinguish between blue in daylight and gray.
              1. Operator
                Operator April 18 2016 22: 50
                +1
                I did not pass pigs with you.

                A red cross should be drawn on a white background, at night the cross is highlighted, the captain is responsible for the illumination.
                1. Captain nemo
                  Captain nemo April 19 2016 12: 12
                  -1
                  Quote: Operator
                  A red cross should be drawn on a white background, at night the cross is highlighted, the captain is responsible for the illumination.

                  "Iron logic" the captain of a German passenger ship did not "out of a big mind" turn off all the outside lights on his ship, and then let's write ourselves in Nuremberg a bunch of "rights" according to which we retroactively "have the right" to sink the wrong people on the escort ship , and those whom he guarded.
                  1. Foofighter
                    Foofighter April 19 2016 20: 33
                    0
                    It was military transport and not a passenger ship. It’s just that refugees piled up to the heap. More than a hundred of them were crushed by the anti-aircraft gun that had torn off the mounts upon receipt of the roll by the transport.
                  2. Operator
                    Operator April 19 2016 22: 30
                    0
                    Gustloff navigation lights were on.
                    1. Foofighter
                      Foofighter April 21 2016 18: 45
                      0
                      And a red cross on a white background, the letters "POW" or something else was drawn on it? Was he carrying combatants and military supplies on board? Alas, I also drove civilians, but this is not visible through the periscope.
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