Military Review

Timur's Iron Army. War with the Horde

136
Army Timur


Timur's successes in his aggressive activities were directly related to the excellent organization of the army. In his military construction, he was certainly guided by the military experience of the Mongol-Mongols and the rules of Genghis Khan. His empire rested solely on the military power and abilities of Tamerlane himself.

The military organization of the troops was built like the Mughal and the Rus according to the decimal system: tens, hundreds, thousands, tumens (10 thousand). The personal guard of the Emir was composed exclusively of the Barlas tribe. Iron Chromets paid special attention to the selection of commanders. “The chief,” he said, “whose power is weaker than the stick and stick, is unworthy of the title.” “Military democracy” remained at the lowest level - foremen were selected in their top ten. Centurions, thousanders and commanders were appointed. The difference from the army of Genghis Khan was that all the soldiers received a certain salary. The foreman received his ten salary, that is, he was interested in raising the rates of his warriors, the centurion received the salary of six foremen, etc. The disciplinary penalty was to retain a tenth of the salary. The incentive measures were widely used - salary increase, gifts, ranks, titles (in particular, the brave hero), banners for the units. Veterans could receive pensions. That is, even then there appeared the same measures that exist at the present time. In addition, units appeared in an undetermined number, in 50-1000 soldiers, called koshuns, as well as larger units — Kuls, whose numbers were also non-permanent.

The army of Tamerlane was divided into cavalry and infantry. Standardized weapons. A simple equestrian warrior should have had a horse, bow, 20 arrows, ax, saw, awl, needle, lasso, and waterskin. On 19 warriors relied kibitka. It was easy cavalry. In heavy cavalry, a warrior had two horses, a helmet, armor (chain mail, lamellar armor), a sword or saber, and a bow and arrows, and there were five people in the tent. The light infantry of Tamerlane followed the campaign on horseback, and dismounted for combat to increase the accuracy of shooting. The infantryman was armed with a sword, a bow and up to 30 arrows. The infantry was able to build earthworks in front of which they installed massive shields. The infantry was mostly lightly armed and mainly consisted of archers, but there were also heavily armed strike troops in the army. Warriors of heavy infantry fought with sabers, axes and maces and were protected by armor, helmets and shields. In the cities militia units were formed, they defended cities during sieges and could participate in external campaigns. There was a special mountain infantry in the army, which was used on rugged terrain and when taking mountain fortresses. Were allocated sapper troops. At the service consisted of throwers "Greek fire", siege machinery and pontoon. Thus, all the newest military equipment of that time was used in the Khromts army.

Parts of the troops moved well in the ranks and differed in the color of equipment and the colors of horses. Chromets strictly observed the law of Genghis Khan on parades before the march. He prepared thoroughly for the campaigns, studied the enemy, trying to envisage everything and provide the army with everything necessary. At the beginning of the movement, the troops marched in a wide avalanche, capturing a vast strip of territory. The main food troops were barley and koumiss. Also organized mass raids, hunted. In the campaigns, Tamerlane did not feel a shortage of food for the troops: he was supplied from the vast fertile fields of Fergana and Persia, which he took care of irrigation as soon as he had subdued these territories.

Near the enemy, each tumen-darkness moved in a column of one hundred rows of one hundred warriors in each, at such intervals that the rider, without crowding his neighbors, could freely turn in place in any direction. This system was extremely convenient for instant turns and rebuilds in any direction. Each chief, starting from the thousandth, was obliged to carry with him his own flag, according to which subordinate soldiers and couriers, carrying instructions, could identify him from afar. For the battle, they tried to choose, as a rule, a large and level field in order to take advantage of powerful cavalry. The order of battle was dispersed throughout the front, and especially in depth. By weakening the center, the flanks were strengthened. Created strong reserves. This created the possibility of reaching and surrounding the enemy. Light troops tied up the battle by throwing arrows and darts, then successively attacked the lines of the main battle formation. When the enemy was weakened, Tamerlane threw a fresh reserve into battle, which decided the outcome of the battle. The battle usually ended with vigorous pursuit of a running enemy. Such tactics ensured Tamerlan's continued success in the struggle with his opponents.

For example, the classic can be considered in the Battle of Angora - the battle with the Ottoman army of Sultan Bayazid, which occurred 20 (28) in July 1402 of the year near Angora (now Ankara). Timur's strong flanks broke the resistance of the enemy. Having defeated the flanks, Timur threw a reserve into the attack and surrounded the main forces of the Turks. The Ottoman army was destroyed, Bayazid himself was captured.

Timur's Iron Army. War with the Horde

Tamerlane and his warriors. Miniature

In his empire, Tamerlane formed a special system of land plots, in many respects similar to the existing system of Timar in the Ottoman Empire. Timur gave conditional possession of land with the peasants who worked on them, called suyurgals. The owner of suyurgala was the sovereign of his lands, but at first he could not pass on the estate by inheritance. In exchange for land ownership, the owners were obliged to perform military service, arriving at war with a detachment of a certain number of soldiers.

The great commander set forth his military theory in his own handwritten “Military Regulations”. The book is divided into three chapters: "How to fight for troops in 12 thousand people," "... in forty thousand horses," "... in a hundred or more thousand horsemen." It contains a very detailed plan for the organization of the army and the conduct of hostilities. So, in the first chapter, Timur wrote: “The first step is the division of forces into 14 divisions. Divisions are built in the center, left and right wings. The right wing consists of the front and rear guard. The front consists of 3 divisions, as well as the rearguard. They (divisions) are called advanced, first and second. The left wing is built similarly. What is the center? Two selective squad; This is the avant-garde center. Here the best spearmen are put, then select warriors, and behind them archers and swordtails. The central avant-garde must first attack the enemy, emitting loud cries: Allah Akbar! ”

Iron Chromets made long hikes in different directions in different years, in order to anticipate the emergence of a strong enemy and capture the loot necessary to maintain a large army. In the conquered territories, Timur acted decisively and cruelly. The defeated were massively slaughtered, buried alive in the ground, given into slavery (the population of entire cities was sold into slavery). So one of the famous images of the empire of Timur is the huge pyramids of the skulls of the dead. His fierce troops destroyed the city of Ani, the one hundred thousandth capital of Ancient Armenia, where the walls of the buildings were laid with the bodies of the living. Under the throne of Tamerlane allegedly was a "small pyramid", composed of skulls of fallen rulers. One of the most frightening pyramids, built by Timur after the fall of Isfahan, consisted of seventy thousand skulls. And after the destruction of Baghdad, more than a hundred of such "structures" were piled. Apparently, destroying the population, Timur undermined the combat potential of the conquered lands. The devastated land for a long time could not gather a large army.


During his campaigns, Timur used the banner with the image of three rings. Rui de Clavijo, Ambassador of the King of Castile and Leon to Timur’s court in 1403, and Arabian historian Ibn Arabshah reported on a sign displaced on Timur’s seal — three equal circles in the form of an equilateral triangle. Clavijo gave this explanation to the symbol: each circle means part of the world, and the owner of the symbol is their sovereign. Before the era of the Great Geographic Discoveries, it was believed that the world consists of Europe, Asia and Africa, washed by the Outer Ocean. And who asserted the rule over these parts of the world, can be considered the ruler of the world. During the time of the Russian Empire, Tamerlanov entered the emblem of Samarkand: “There is a silver, wavy pillar in the azure shield, accompanied on the sides by two golden branches of the mulberry tree. In the silver damask head of the shield is the sign of the tamgha (seal) of Tamerlane three black rings. The shield is crowned with the ancient Tsar's crown and is surrounded by golden oak leaves, connected with the Alexander Ribbon. ”

In the opinion of Svyatoslav Roerich, who studied the symbolism of Eurasia, the seal of Tamerlane meant the triad-triunity sign. It is distributed from ancient India and China to Western Europe and is one of the oldest symbols of humanity. Different nations and traditions explained this sign in different ways, associating it with the threefoldness of the Universe; the triunity of God: in India, the Trimurti, a triad uniting the three main deities of the Hindu pantheon (Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the Guardian and Shiva the Destroyer) into a single whole; in Christianity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; the Three Treasures of the East (Buddha, Dharma, Sangha); continuity of past, present and future; truth, beauty, justice, etc.

Timur's War with the Horde

A special place in the life of Timur took the fight with the Horde. Rather, not with the whole Horde, but with its individual parts. While he asserted his power in Maverannakhr, in the eastern part of the Ulus Juchi, the White Horde, Urus Khan strengthened his position. In 1372, he reached the lower reaches of the Volga, took both Sheds and declared himself Khan of the Golden Horde. Urus Khan tried to unite the once powerful Juchi ulus. This ruler (by the way, apparently, his mother was a Russian princess, that's why his name is Urus) was so strong then that Timur did not dare to speak out against him openly for a long time. In addition, at that time Timur was just beginning to create his own empire.

However, Timur was afraid of such a dangerous neighbor and, not daring to act openly, led a "hybrid war." He bribed and lured to his side the princes, military leaders and dignitaries of Urus Khan. At the court of Tamerlane, he sought the patronage of a descendant of the son of Genghis Khan Juchi, who claimed authority over the entire Horde, Tokhtamysh. Timur made a major bet on him. Chromets surrounded Tokhtamysh with unprecedented honors, even ordered to put a tent higher than his own in Samarkand (Tokhtamysh was Chingisid). Tokhtamysh received money weapon, horses, and even a whole army - a few riders of riders. Tamerlane’s protege was to take the capital of the Blue Horde, Sygnak (South Kazakhstan). Therefore, it is worth noting that the subsequent performance of Tokhtamysh against Timur was a real rebellion of the feudal lord against his lord.

In 1376, Timur threw his vassal into battle. Against him came the army under the command of the son of Urus-Khan Kutlug-Buk, who was considered the heir to the throne and during the absence of his father served as ruler of the Blue Horde. Tokhtamysh lost the battle, but Kutlug-Buk died in it. In Samarkand, Timur replenished the army of his vassal and again sent to war with the powerful Khan of the White Horde. Tokhtamysh again invaded the Golden Horde. However, he was again defeated by Toktakia, the son of Urus-Khan, and took refuge with Timur. Urus Khan demanded that the Emir, under the threat of war, extradite Tokhtamysh to him, but Timur refused. Then Tamerlane himself went to war with Urus-Khan, but neither one nor the other won a decisive victory.

Fate itself has made adjustments to the further fate of the rulers. In 1377, Urus Khan died (or was killed during one of the clashes). After the short reign of Toktakia, Timur-Malik entered the throne of Golden Horde. A new Khan fought off the first attack of Tokhtamysh. But he was unpopular among the nobility, representatives of the tops of the Blue Horde began to run to Toktamysh. Therefore, another attempt of Tokhtamysh was crowned with success. The army of Timur-Melik almost in full force went over to the side of Tokhtamysh. Timur-Malik, accompanied by a few faithful warriors, tried to escape, but was captured and executed by order of Tokhtamysh.

Tokhtamysh spring 1378, invaded the western part of the Horde, controlled by Mamaia. By April 1380, Tokhtamysh was able to capture most of the Golden Horde right up to Azov, including the capital, Sarai-Berke. Soon the new Khan managed to unite the Juchi ulus (Golden and White Horde) together. In 1381, on the Kalka River, he defeated the army of Temnik Mamai, who had lost the main forces in the Kulikovo battle a year before. Mamai fled headlong to Cafu and was killed there by his recent allies, the Genoese. Tokhtamysh quickly restored the power of the Horde in Russia. In 1382, he took and burned Moscow, walked with fire and sword and the Ryazan principality. Again, the Russian princes reached out to the Horde for the labels.

Being proud of his success, Tokhtamysh decided to throw off his dependence on the Central Asian ruler. Timur and Tokhtamysh had a conflict over disputed regions. The two main regions that contested the Golden Horde and Timur's empire were Khorezm and Azerbaijan. Both were relatively autonomous and ruled by local dynasties: Khorezm - Sufiz, Azerbaijan - Jalayrid. Khorezm was actually dependent on Timur since the end of the 1370s. In 1385, the emir made a trip to Azerbaijan, defeated the troops of Jalayrid in Sultania, but did not complete the conquest of the region and returned to Persian affairs. Tokhtamysh responds with his military expedition - Tabriz, the capital of Azerbaijan, is captured, but also does not strengthen here, but retreats to the initial positions. In response, Timur conquered Transcaucasia and incorporated it into his empire.

Thus, Tamerlane understood that his "fancy dog" had started a war against him. In the winter of 1386-1387. in Dagestan, the troops of Khromts entered the battle with the army of Tokhtamysh. Khan had to retreat. The relationship of the two rulers was hopelessly flawed.

The next step makes Tokhtamysh. Having entered into an alliance with the Semirechensk Mongols, he already breaks through into the territory directly subordinate to Timur. 1388, Tokhtamysh suddenly struck in the heart of his possessions: the Golden Horde troops passed Sygnak and entered Maverannahr and laid siege to Bukhara. Then Khan even besieged Samarkand. The defense of the city was headed by the son of Tamerlane Omar. By the end of the year, Iron Khromets himself came up with the troops, and Tokhtamysh chose not to join the battle and return to the Horde.

Timur decided to punish the insolent and organize a major campaign. However, for the beginning it was necessary to restore order in the rear. Thus, Khorezm was punished for an alliance with the enemy. Timur dealt with his capital and its inhabitants with his characteristic ferocity. Urgench was almost completely destroyed, and the soldiers sowed barley throughout its territory. However, after the campaign 1391 of the year, the emir who was probably in a good mood allowed him to rebuild the city. In 1389, the troops of Iron Hromtz made a devastating campaign deep into the Mongolian possessions to the north of the Irtysh and to the Great Yulduz to the east.

In 1391, Tamerlan was ready for a big hike. Feeling his strength, he offered peace to Tokhtamysh, but he did not agree. In February, 1391, Timur concentrated an army of many thousands (200 thousand) on the Syr Darya and gathered here a kurultai, on which he gave his military leaders the last instructions. In April, the army reached the Sary-Su river in Kazakhstan, where it stopped to rest. From here Khromets led the army to the north, to the region of Upper Tobol, where, according to intelligence data, part of the Tokhtamysh army was based. The Horde Khan, in turn, trying to avoid a battle, led his forces to the west, to Yaiku (now the Ural River). While Timur's army was moving towards Yaik, the enemy moved further away. Only on the middle Volga, in the area of ​​today's Samara, 18, June, a bloody battle took place on the Kondurche River. It is believed that about 500 thousand warriors came together in a fierce battle. At the beginning of the battle, the more numerous, but less organized, Horde troops attempted to reach the enemy from the flanks, but all the attacks of the Horde warriors were repulsed. Then the army of Tamerlane launched a counter-offensive and overturned the Horde with a powerful flank attack and throughout the 200, the versts pursued them to the banks of the Volga. Tokhtamysh's army suffered a terrible defeat. Tokhtamysh himself barely carried off his legs. 26 days Timur celebrated victory, spending time in endless feasts.


Hike 1391 of the Year

Timur did not chase the enemy and returned to Samarkand. However, Chromets underestimated the potential of an ambitious opponent. In the battle, only the army was defeated, but not the Horde, which retained a huge military potential. Soon Tokhtamysh regained his power over her and gathered another huge army. In 1394, Timur learned that Tokhtamysh had reassembled the army and formed an alliance against him with the Sultan of Egypt Barkuk (Timur was planning an invasion of Egypt). Tokhtamysh also concluded an alliance with the Grand Duke of Lithuania and Poland, King Jagiello. Horde again invaded the Caucasus and began to ravage the borders of the empire of Timur. An army was sent against them, but the Horde retreated to the north.

Timur decided that Tokhtamysh should be destroyed once and for all, and also to ruin the Horde in order to undermine the power of the enemy. In the spring of 1395, Timur gathered a huge army near the Caspian Sea. Then he moved his troops to the north, going from the Caucasus to Dagestan along the western shore of the Caspian Sea. Timur's troops defeated Kaytag Utsmiystvo, which acted as an ally of Tokhtamysh. In April, his army camped in the valley of the Terek, from where the main forces of the khan were visible. Here 15 April 1395 was a battle on the Terek, which largely predetermined the fate of the Golden Horde. More than 1 million warriors participated in the battle. The battle was similar to the battle on the river Kondurche. First, the flanks of the Horde army pushed the enemy, but Timur brought in fresh forces and reserves, correcting the situation. Horde, unable to withstand the onslaught of the enemy, flinch and began to retreat. Developing success, the troops of Iron Khromtz overturned the left flank of Tokhtamysh’s army. Soon the army of Tokhtamysh, completely disorganized, turned to stampede. The fierceness and perseverance of the battle is indicated by losses - up to half the composition of both armies.


Hike 1395 of the Year

Timur did not repeat the previous mistake and, not giving the enemy time to recover, moved in pursuit of Tokhtamysh. Khromets invaded the western uluses of the Golden Horde, who betrayed the devastation and robbery. Part of the troops of Tamerlane, who were no longer needed, sent back to Shiraz and Samarkand. On the Volga, he lost track of the fugitive, but the expedition continued. Tamerlane suppressed the speeches of emirs of Tokhtamysh on the lower Don.

After that, Timur's army went to Russia, the troops of which were more than once included in the composition of Tokhtamysh's troops, many Russian princes were in close relations with the khan. The army of Tamerlane followed to the north along the Don river in two columns: one — by steppes east of the river, the other — along the western bank. In July, both columns reached the southern regions of the Ryazan principality. The western part of the army, under the personal guidance of Tamerlane, took Elec by storm. The inhabitants of the city were killed or sold into slavery. As a result, Iron Chromets, who terrified Asia, was now not far from Moscow. Apparently, the Moscow princedom was on the verge of a pogrom. Russian troops quickly gathered in Kolomna under the leadership of Grand Duke Vasily Dmitrievich (son of Dmitry Donskoy), they had to keep the defense along the Oka. In Moscow, whose defense was to be led by the hero of the Kulikovo battle, Prince Vladimir Serpukhov, the icon of the Vladimir Mother of God, the most revered Russian Mother of God, was transferred. What happened next is called a mystery by historians, and the clergy and chroniclers unanimously consider it a great miracle. Timur suddenly decided not to go further and turned south. The Russian legend describes that “to the malicious and pregordom” Tsar of Tatar on the night before 26 of August there was a vision that frightened him greatly. The "Lord of the Faithful" woke up, trembling, and for a long time could not explain to his entourage what had happened to him. He saw a formidable wife in fiery robes and innumerable troops blocking the road to Moscow. The wise men and mullahs summoned by Tamerlane explained to him that the Mother of the “Russian God” threatens him with a terrible punishment if he dares to go further into the Russian lands. ” So Vladimir Mother of God saved Russia.

True, modern secular researchers have their own explanations for this event. So, Tamerlan’s turn to the south is associated with uprisings in the rear — Circassians in the Caucasus and some Persian cities. Other authors believe that he was frightened by the difficulties of the winter campaign and was aware of the "great forces of the Russians" and their willingness to face death. They also write that Tamerlane simply did not consider northern Russia as a necessary part of his state, did not see much interest in it from the point of view of profit. In addition, it is believed that only a separate corps of Timur’s army invaded Russia, which itself remained in the steppe at that time. The commanders of this part of the army decided that they did not have enough strength to further invade unknown lands and turned back. However, at home, Iron Khromets widely advertised his actions in the Ryazan principality as a complete subjugation of Russia.

On the way home, Timur's troops defeated the trading cities of Azov and Cafu, and they burned Sarai-Batu and Astrakhan (Hadji-Tarkhan). The Horde cities of the Volga region never recovered from the pogrom of Timur until the final collapse of the Golden Horde. Many colonies of Italian merchants in the Crimea and in the lower Don were also defeated. The northern branch of the Great Silk Road practically ceased to exist. The caravans moved along the southern route through the territory of Timur, and the wealth that previously came to Tokhtamysh, now settled in Timur's treasury. However, the lasting conquest of the Horde was not the goal of Tamerlane, and therefore the Caucasus Mountains remained the northern boundary of the possessions of Timur’s empire.

Tokhtamysh himself managed to escape. However, after the withdrawal of Timur's troops, he lost his former influence and was forced to wage a constant struggle with the khans set by Timur. Tokhtamysh tried to return the Horde throne with the help of the Grand Duke of Lithuanian and Russian Vitovt. But his hopes were defeated by Edigey, who 12 August 1399, in the Battle of Worxla, defeated the combined forces of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Russia with its Polish, German and Horde allies. Tohamysh again contacted Tamerlane in 1405. He, now again "nizheyshe", asked the former overlord to help raise a rebellion against the powerful Edigey. Tokhtamysh could not forget about his former greatness. However, Tamerlan, apparently, had already forgotten the old grievances and did not seek revenge on Tokhtamysh. Tamerlane became interested in the proposal, but then he was overtaken by death. And Tokhtamysh soon fell at the hands of Edigey.

It should be noted that the pogrom of the Horde Timur finally undermined the forces of the Horde Empire. The horde as a single strong state ceased to exist, breaking up into separate state formations. Gradually there will be a transition of the conceptual center of the empire to Moscow. Under Ivan the Terrible, Russia will restore a significant part of the Horde Empire, but with the center in Moscow.


Timur's struggle with Tokhtamysh. Miniature of the Facial Chronicle

To be continued ...
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Articles from this series:
Iron Khromets

Iron Chromets and his empire
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  1. D-Master
    D-Master April 13 2016 06: 51
    +13
    Great article, deep bow to the author. Article must be archived! Unfortunately at school, this period of history is considered only in the episode of the Kulikovo battle and that’s all. The students, even for a survey, have no idea about the situation in the Horde and Transcaucasia at that time. And only now when you see the true scope of the action and evaluate the scale you begin to understand. That the fate of the world was decided in the boundless steppes of the Volga region and the deserts of Central Asia. If all this power would spill over into Europe .... A story with 100% probability would develop in a different way. In Europe, IMHO, of course, there was no force that could stop Tamerlane.
    1. Portolan
      Portolan April 13 2016 07: 18
      +16
      Timur defeated the Horde and the Horde cities so much that they could not recover. It’s strange here, the Russian cities ALWAYS recovered after the defeats of both Moscow, Kiev, and Ryazan, and the famous Sarai now is a pile of broken bricks, and for some reason it’s already of Peter's standard.
      But after all, as the Horde state existed after the defeat, before Standing on the Ugra 1480 i.e. 100 years after the massacre of the Horde by Timur, why didn’t they restore their cities? Those. the state was, but there were no cities, this is very strange.
      1. Adik89
        Adik89 April 13 2016 07: 53
        +2
        Nomads of the city did not need! The main thing is cattle and pastures! And the cities were built only by ambitious khans, and even in prosperous, rich times!
        1. Portolan
          Portolan April 13 2016 08: 13
          +6
          Quote: Adik89
          Nomads of the city did not need! The main thing is cattle and pastures! And the cities were built only by ambitious khans, and even in prosperous, rich times!


          cool means the khans were not nomads? And who were they then?
          1. Aposlya
            Aposlya April 13 2016 08: 34
            +1
            The word "ambitious" seems to mean something else! laughing
            And then, the cities were built as centers of trade, but the nomadism is just household management - cattle breeding ...
            1. Portolan
              Portolan April 13 2016 08: 56
              +5
              Quote: Aposlya
              And then, cities were built as trade centers,


              This is a primitive understanding of the meaning of cities, but in fact is not correct, how is it "a city only for trade"? The city was created ALWAYS as the center of PRODUCTION i.e. because the resettlement of craftsmen, in different production spheres (iron processing, weaving, pottery), training in professional skills, everything required a compact residence and this is what the city was created for. And of course, an exchange or sale of their works was needed, therefore production and trade are inseparable from each other, this is the city.
              And in your understanding, the bazaar can be organized in a clean field, but you do not need to build a city for this.
              1. Chiropractor
                Chiropractor April 13 2016 11: 14
                +2
                Quote: Portolan
                The city was ALWAYS created as the center of PRODUCTION


                add - and STORAGE!
                The looting of the city is not so much stripping earrings from the ears of residents, as the removal of city supplies - food supplies, metal, weapons, junk (furs).

                You are a nomad. You have a faithful horse, a wagon, a cauldron, a spear, a bow with 30 arrows. BUT soon you will need new arrowheads, spears, some kind of armor, and all this is done only in cities.
          2. Riv
            Riv April 13 2016 09: 16
            +2
            Quite a city people. Well, think about it: if the main eater of the soldiers of the same Timur was barley, then it must be sown and harvested somewhere. And this implies developed agriculture and a settled lifestyle.

            Yes, and in the Horde, the lifestyle was nomad no more than that of the Cossacks in the 17th century. That is, they graze herds in the steppe in the summer, they can run somewhere behind yasak, but in the spring - sowing, in the fall - reaping. Otherwise, die from hunger for long. War is not always fed, and you will not live on koumiss and horsemeat.
            1. Hurray
              Hurray April 15 2016 04: 50
              0
              Even as you live. The diet of people at that time was very ascetic.
          3. ver_
            ver_ April 13 2016 19: 25
            -2
            ..khan = kan = king = emperor - the same thing .. the king is the emperor's appointee .. The nomads also had nayons, tayons, bai, shamans .. - "brothers" were always among all peoples. The rich have always hired workers and guards .. There has never been a paradise on Earth. There have always been thieves, robbers and murderers ..
        2. Rivares
          Rivares April 13 2016 14: 23
          +2
          Quote: Adik89
          Nomads of the city did not need! The main thing is cattle and pastures!

          What a strange opinion! Offer any pastoralist (nomad) to become the head of the district and live on everything ready - he will refuse ??! Yes, he will give you his whole flock together with the wagon. And in those days, constantly shivering from the cold and the neighboring "nomads" was better than sitting in a heated house behind a reliable wall, and even with a tribute?
          1. marshes
            marshes April 13 2016 14: 34
            0
            Quote: Rivares
            What a strange opinion! Offer any pastoralist (nomad) to become the head of the district and live on everything ready - he will refuse ??! Yes, he will give you his whole flock together with the wagon. And in those days, constantly shivering from the cold and the neighboring "nomads" was better than sitting in a heated house behind a reliable wall, and even with a tribute?

            Yes to the campaign he is "Northern Kazakh" smile It’s not very easy to settle in one place. Flooding rivers are flooding, what is happening in Northern Kazakhstan now.
    2. ver_
      ver_ April 13 2016 17: 59
      +7
      ... the article is continuous gossip .. Like a bunch of children's toys in a cardboard box, and with the presence of nationalism ..
    3. Alibekulu
      Alibekulu April 13 2016 19: 14
      +2
      To be continued ...
      About the continuation. It was much later. And it came from the grandchildren of the defeated Horde, who avenged the humiliation of their grandfathers. Known in history under the ethnonym "Oz-Begi" (Uzbek-nomadic Uzbeks). Moving from Siberia, they conquered the state of the descendants of Tamerlane. Lame's grandson fled to Afghanistan, but the most paradoxical thing is that this was the beginning of their more famous empire - the empire of the Great Mughals .. request
      By the way, perhaps the departure (I mean non-return) of the majority of the nomadic Uzbeks from Siberia predetermined the relatively easy fall of the Siberian Khanate ..
      Quote: marshes
      so still interesting is the genus Tabyn and Bashkir.
      hi apparently from the Dzungars they hid from "Aktaban shұbyryndy", and so they remained ..
      1. marshes
        marshes April 13 2016 19: 33
        0
        Quote: Alibekulu
        apparently from the Dzungars they hid from "Aktaban shұbyryndy", and so they remained ..

        They didn’t migrate in the 13th century, and the campaign against the Mongols, Naimans and Kerei? They defeated Otrar, perhaps.
        Funny, Adays are militants, damn neighbors, no one in the army, a show-off, did not serve and there are three brothers smile
        Not long ago, they bought a house near Ustkaman, and here dad at the expense of the southerners would go to the north of KZ. laughing
  2. Yarik
    Yarik April 13 2016 06: 59
    +1
    It is worth noting that the massacre of the Horde by Timur completely undermined the forces of the Horde Empire.

    It is clear that the half-million army is more than impressive. This is not a "militia in Kolomna" for you. recourse
    1. Riv
      Riv April 13 2016 12: 55
      +6
      Yes, all this tales. Batu brought to Russia from 30 to 60 thousand soldiers. And enough! Then they also took a walk to Europe. And then the half-million army - and could not overcome. A miracle is wonderful, marvelous. Yes, if Tokhtamysh had half a million fighters - he would have Russia, and Europe to Britain, and would have captured Africa. In a year. And Timur is China with India. Then they would get married and there would be a world power.

      Here's a story ... :)
    2. Spnsr
      Spnsr April 13 2016 23: 39
      +2
      Quote: Yarik
      Clearly, half a million armies are more than impressive.

      not impressive! these are now millions of armies, and in those days, I doubt the world’s population, they’ve lost so much to support such armies!
      somewhat far from your idea that Timur (Stalin is somewhat removed, is wink just an analogy of presenting us with this or that character, Stalin is also presented to us as a monster, I don’t dare argue this way or not, but whoever first started this also had a stigma in the cannon) was the emir of the Blue Horde, the emir is not the emperor. in another interpretation, the khan, although the khan, is more similar in equality with the prince, but the emir may have more powers than the khans in his territory, which may consist of several khanates! the very fact of Timur’s determination as emir gives great reason to assert that he is someone's henchman, why not call himself emperor !? the army allowed him that !!!
      Now about the distant!
      Timur used banners with the image of three rings.
      for some reason no one ever says that the composition of the once united state included three Hordes! White, Blue and Gold! and they were located not in the territory of the former USSR or the Russian Empire, but throughout Eurasia, including Africa
      it looks more like the once united empire, for some reason, was divided into the Golden, White and Blue hordes, and if in the first two hordes "masters", or heirs, were quickly found, then an emir was placed in the Blue one !!!
      very much like the Blue Horde was the most peaceful place, at the moment when separate currents began to walk on the territory of the White Horde, which tried to overwhelm the Golden Horde, but which turned out to be calmed by statements like "I am a descendant of Augustus" ©
      The White Horde was the first to be German! Golden Horde, we have what we have! Blue Horde - graters of 16 - 20 centuries to this day!
      and the fact that someone needs to drive the history of a larger territory into the USSR - the Russian Empire is almost the same as blaming all the blame on one person ...
      very strong feeling that the creators of the Russian Empire were involved in this! to break apart the whole, so that then on the fragments to create an empire (Empire (from lat. imperium - power) is a powerful power uniting different peoples and territories (many of which are colonies) into a single state with a single political center, playing a prominent role in the region or even all over the world.https: //ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%98%D0%BC%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F)
      on the one hand, if they didn’t break it and do not create what we have now, they would be devoured by others who have already united (the history of the 17th and 20th centuries), and on the other, the definition of empire! - not a whole organism, creates the prerequisites for separate currents - an example - the collapse of the USSR!
      tell the story repeats itself! and each subsequent round of history is one to one similar to the previous ones, but differs from them only in the degree of progress!
      1. de_monSher
        de_monSher April 14 2016 00: 13
        +1
        not impressive! these are now millions of armies, and in those days, I doubt the world’s population, they’ve lost so much to support such armies!


        Historical background - by the end of ancient times = roughly, by the beginning of our era =, on the territory of the Oycumene = this is without the Americas, Australia = almost 200 people lived there. Considering them, and even Polynesia with Micronesia, perhaps all 250-300 lived then on the planet. The Middle Ages wiped out the people, but by the beginning of the 10-11th centuries, people made up for the losses, and population growth was outlined. Plus, keep in mind that Central Asia and the Middle East in those days were more "advanced" in matters of quality of life and medicine than Europe and Russia.

        was the emir of the Blue Horde, the emir is not an emperor.


        The emir is a person of "low" origin who has power in his hands. Timur, all his life remained emir, not claiming either a khanate or a sultanate, etc. etc. Only his children and grandchildren, since they inherited "noble" blood from their mothers, were no longer called emirs ... *)
        1. Spnsr
          Spnsr April 14 2016 00: 37
          +1
          Quote: de_monSher
          in the territory of Oikumeny = this is without the Americas, Australia = almost 200 Lyam people lived

          this is the whole territory of three rings!
          roughly take 1/5, the approximate territory of the one that is interpreted in this story, pulling out civilians! or let them too! and contain !?
          it is almost the same as saying
          Quote: de_monSher
          Plus, keep in mind that Central Asia and the Middle East at that time were more "advanced" in terms of quality of life and medicine than Europe and Russia.
          - and where is it all? is there in Europe, in Russia as always, and Central Asia, the Middle East? where is it all, were more "advanced" in matters of quality of life and medicine ???
          Quote: de_monSher
          Emir is a person of "low" origin who has power in his hands
          - about the same thing that they gave him! appointing a procurator - an emir in this territory!
          Quote: de_monSher
          Only his children and grandchildren
          but what about, having a position in a society where dad and grandfather are in authority, when the collapse of the union is under way, so as not to make their claims !!! and here it doesn’t matter
          Quote: de_monSher
          mothers inherited "noble" blood
          inherited or not! doesn’t resemble anything?
          Do you have anyone there who had to present that, from once emirs, except for those who were in power in the USSR?
          1. de_monSher
            de_monSher April 14 2016 01: 00
            0
            this is the whole territory of three rings!


            Consider the approximate gender equality. We will throw out the young and the disabled. We will take into account that at that time, the northern countries - Russia, in particular, were very sparsely populated (we can recall that at the beginning of the 18th century, about 20 million people lived in all of Russia). About Europe, just keep quiet. So for your ancestors, the clash of two gangs, with a total of 20.000 people, was already a great battle. And the bulk of the population in those days lived just the same in the Middle East, South, Southeast and Central Asia. And here, just the same, numerous armies were not a wonder ...

            inherited or not! doesn’t resemble anything?


            I wanted to write "on the line of mothers" of course. If you mean the Emir of Bukhara, he just was nothing more than a locum tenens of the throne. In general, he could not claim the throne. And the fate of his children is quite interesting. One of the sons, it seems, disowned him, was an officer in the Soviet Army, fought in the Second World War, was seriously wounded = lost a leg, it seems like =.

            - and where is it all? in Europe, in Russia, as always, and Central Asia, the Middle East?


            Ummm ... it would be nice if you were more coherent in expressing your thoughts. It would be very nice. As far as I understand, you are asking something like, "where is everyone? We've lost everything!" So? Want to see "where is it all", come and see. Do you have a gateway opinion about Central Asia as a whole - this is the lack of ANY "couch, hurt a smart commentator." People, even from Tajikistan, come to you, not because they live poorly at home, but only because it is easier to earn money here in Russia, nothing more.
            1. Spnsr
              Spnsr April 14 2016 08: 02
              +1
              Quote: de_monSher
              Ummm ... it would be nice if you were more coherent in expressing your thoughts. It would be very nice. As far as I understand, you are asking something like, "where is everyone? We've lost everything!" So? Want to see "where is it all", come and see. Do you have a gateway opinion about Central Asia as a whole - this is the lack of ANY "couch, hurt a smart commentator." People, even from Tajikistan, come to you, not because they live poorly at home, but only because it is easier to earn money here in Russia, nothing more.

              you just don’t have to tell who built it all, it's about what Central Asia is using now!
              I do not want to hurt you! just talking about the facts
              Quote: de_monSher
              Ummmmm ... it would be nice if you more coherently stated your idea.
              how to say this, I am just expressing my thought through the prism of the history of the present, and not so distant past!
              1. de_monSher
                de_monSher April 14 2016 09: 11
                0
                you just don’t have to tell who built it all, it's about what Central Asia is using now!


                = surprised = And who built what Russia used and uses? If you know, such a country was, the USSR. And here you don’t breed chauvinism, okay? And then we will fight with you for two weeks ... *)


                how to say this, I am just expressing my thought through the prism of the history of the present, and not so distant past!


                No, no ... I’m not talking about ... *) it’s just that when you write, you get a feeling that you are excitedly waving your hands, rushing to express a thought ... and often forget that your thoughts are your thoughts, and the words have properties obey the generally accepted rules ... *)
                1. Spnsr
                  Spnsr April 14 2016 22: 18
                  +1
                  Quote: de_monSher
                  = surprised = And who built what Russia used and uses? If you know, such a country was, the USSR. And here you don’t breed chauvinism, okay? And then we will fight with you for two weeks ... *)

                  how sad I know a large number of people who built Uchkuduk, Zerafshan, Navoi, Bayram-Ali, Kairakkum, Chkalovsk! I’m not diminishing anyone’s merits, I just want equality in history, if it was built in the USSR, then how can it be argued that once it was advanced, then it became ill, and so much so that the USSR had to be built anew! only!!! - here, too, the same feeling arises as you put it -
                  Quote: de_monSher
                  it’s just that when you write, a feeling develops, then you excitedly wave your hands, hurry to express a thought ... and often forget that your thoughts are your thoughts, and the words have properties that obey the generally accepted rules ... *)

                  it will sound differently may not be pleasing to your hearing, but it’s accessible, on a topic like
                  Consider the approximate gender equality. We will throw out the young and the disabled. We will take into account that at that time, the northern countries - Russia, in particular, were very sparsely populated (we can recall that at the beginning of the 18th century, about 20 million people lived in all of Russia). About Europe, just keep quiet. So for your ancestors, the clash of two gangs, with a total of 20.000 people, was already a great battle. And the bulk of the population in those days lived just the same in the Middle East, South, Southeast and Central Asia. And here, just the same, numerous armies were not a wonder ...
                  tales of a thousand and one nights do not tell !!!
                  1. de_monSher
                    de_monSher April 15 2016 03: 27
                    0
                    how sad I know a large number of people who built Uchkuduk, Zerafshan, Navoi, Bayram-Ali, Kairakkum, Chkalovsk!


                    I also know no less than such people. All over the former Union they are now scattered. And besides, I am very sad when my friends, relatives and acquaintances leave - it doesn’t matter what nationality they are from Uzbekistan. And, you can believe it, you can not - the vast majority of Uzbekistanis (not only Uzbeks, mind you) think the same way. Each person who leaves has his own destiny, his own motivating reasons - but nevertheless it is sad. And even if the world is now cramped, and there is no such word in it - far (C) Richard Bach. I just don’t understand, honestly, why did you say all this. In Uzbekistan, the people are absolutely friendly. Yes, the official language is Uzbek (we are not the United States, where there is no official language as such), but the Russian language in Uzbekistan can be said to have a second wind. Any government official MUST consider the application of citizens in the language that is convenient for the citizen. If he doesn’t do this, I’m sorry, they’ll put him in cancer and I’ll be taken away at the most. And if you go through the same Tashkent, or Samarkand, then you’ll simply go nuts, at least because all the advertising in Russian is almost everywhere = which, by the way, causes a lot of rabid salivation and mucus discharge among a few rabid nationalists =. Well, about the markets, the service sector, I'm just silent. In other institutions, such pearls are mona to see - when people who are noisy, there is no way to write in Uzbek (!!!) for some reason they write a list of their services in Russian (well, in that Russian, as it seems to them).

                    tales of a thousand and one nights do not tell !!!


                    You, Dear, everything is neglected in the field of history. Do not read the new-fangled CIS-ov historians, it does not matter who they are, Russians, Uzbeks, Ukrainians, Kazakhs, Kirghiz, Turkmen. They’ll knock you over like that, they’ll come up with such tales - at least stand still. Modern historians - conjuncturists are still those. So I’m forwarding your own words, for you - don’t get carried away by the tales of Scheherazade. Quite serious historians, already forty or fifty years ago, neatly laid out everything on the shelves. Their students, without any idiotic advertising (similar to those of Nosovsky and Fomenko), continue their endeavors.

                    So, what I am telling you is nothing more than facts. What you are trying to say is nothing more than emotions.
                    1. Spnsr
                      Spnsr April 15 2016 09: 53
                      +1
                      Quote: de_monSher
                      So, what I am telling you is nothing more than facts. What you are trying to say is nothing more than emotions.

                      let your stereotype be! I won’t dispute your misconceptions about my conditions ... but about new-fangled historical theories, I can only say the following, making statements such as you described above, it really looks like you need to read new-fangled theories!
                      you forgive me, it may seem very harsh, but I'm just trying to share an understanding of the text voiced by you!
                      At one time, when they began to stress that Mongolia simply could not put up such an army in the 13th century, theories that some kind of zhuzes were the heirs of the mass of people that made up its population immediately appeared! and for some reason your statements remind me of texts from the same opera ....
                      Well, giving an example of the USSR, I was just trying to show that such a story simply has no foundation, and primarily because the formation of the republics of Central Asia took place during the USSR, and this is all that could contribute to what you said
                      keep in mind that Central Asia and the Middle East in those days were more "advanced" in terms of quality of life and medicine than Europe, Russia.

                      and before that, there were khanates, on the basis of which the Russian Empire in the 19th century laid the foundation for the formation of the species that is now represented in Central Asia! and which was picked up by the Communists (is it not so modern in a modern way?) this is what I wanted to say in my comments! it just turned sideways, because I didn’t want to offend your feelings, which are very much similar to those formed on the stereotypes laid down by modern trends in history ...
                      Sorry!
                      1. de_monSher
                        de_monSher April 15 2016 11: 16
                        0
                        at one time when they began to emphasize that Mongolia simply could not expose such an army in the 13th century


                        I finally understood what you mean. Just for the future - the only thing I can't stand is chauvinism and nationalism. And it doesn’t matter who this very chauvinist and nationalist is whether Uzbek (first of all, of course, since I myself am an Uzbek), whether Russian, Ukrainian, or, for example, a representative of the Swahili people, I don’t care. Such people annoy me very much. On any other issues, with normal people I can have a normal, respectful conversation. And my interlocutor may not be afraid, using ANY arguments, of my inadequate reaction ... *) So do not be afraid to hurt my feelings - if you are not a chauvinist, you will not succeed ... *)) This is ...

                        About Mongolia, etc. Not about her, but about another completely different country - Maverrannahr (or Transoxiana). This territory is almost completely occupied by modern Uzbekistan. The northern interfluve has always been very densely populated. At least take the fact that after the Arab conquests and the adoption of Islam by the region, before the Mongol conquests, the countries of Transoxiana, very seriously claimed leadership in the Muslim world (by the way, this follows not from the "research" of modern national historians, but from works for example, the same Igor Mozheiko). You can even remember that in ancient times, it was the states located in Central Asia that constituted the most serious competition for Rome - I mean Parthia. And, as far as I remember, the border between Rome and the Parthian kingdom was in the area of ​​Palestine. And all the conquests of Transoxiana, in the history of the Middle Ages, were based on the mercantile essence of many of its inhabitants and rulers. The gates of cities were most often opened by "donkeys laden with gold", and not by the swords of the conquerors (by the way, the same thing happened during Russia's conquest of Central Asia).

                        You can even recall the Central Asian campaign of Peter the Great, in the 1714th, if I am not mistaken, year. When a merchant from Samarkand fascinated the emperor with tales of the wonders of Central Asia, and assurances that the peoples of Central Asia would happily go under the auspices of Russia, that he embarked on an adventure by equipping a detachment of 3000 foot soldiers and 2500 Cossacks who were sent to Khiva. The result of the campaign was deplorable - the detachment was completely cut out, the skin was removed from the commander of the detachment, Bekovich-Cherkassky, because he had renounced Islam and converted to Orthodoxy.

                        But this is a later stage of history. It's a little about something else. Central Asia, Turkestan, Inner Turkestan at all times were very densely populated. You will not deny that one of the reasons for the "great migration" of peoples is demographic pressure? And you, you will not deny that the same Huns, for a reason, withdrew from their habitable places and destroyed Rome. But not all the people, you must agree, drowned in Europe ... *) And when they talk about many, hundreds of thousands of troops, for example, the same Amir Timur, I am inclined to believe this - archaeological excavations on the territory of my country directly indicate that the region's economy could afford it in those years. Well, the same Timur could not gallop with a hundred horsemen and capture Baghdad, and practically everything, no less densely populated southern interfluve - Euphrates and Tigris, agree?

                        Mdya ... verbose ... But nevertheless, something like that I think ... *))
                      2. Cartalon
                        Cartalon April 15 2016 11: 32
                        0
                        Many hundreds of thousands of armies could simply be impossible to manage, I generally doubt that under conditions of Iran, more than 30 thousand horsemen can be pushed along one road, and there are not too many roads there, well, and did Parthia control Central Asia for you, like Merv was an extreme point in the northeast
                      3. de_monSher
                        de_monSher April 15 2016 11: 44
                        0
                        Parthia controlled Central Asia, like Merv was an extreme point in the northeast


                        = Just in case, I opened a map of the approximate borders of the Parthian kingdom = ... It seems like it included the Ferghana Valley, Tashkent and Samarkand oases.

                        Many hundreds of thousands of armies could be simply impossible to control,


                        Why?

                        I generally doubt that under the conditions of Iran


                        Why do you deny the developed, for those times infrastructure, the state, which since ancient times has been swarming in the same "sandbox" with Ancient Greece? *)))
                      4. Cartalon
                        Cartalon April 15 2016 12: 21
                        0
                        Apart from the wiki, I can’t look anywhere now, there Central Asia is not in Parthia, there, in theory, Kushans should be
                        Iran, a mountainous country, be there even beyond the civilization of roads will no longer be
                        In terms of the number on a visible field, 150 thousand people is the maximum that Napoleon collected and then he has infantry in a tight formation, and here the cavalry is mostly light
                      5. de_monSher
                        de_monSher April 15 2016 12: 41
                        0
                        Apart from the wiki, I can’t look anywhere now, there Central Asia is not in Parthia, there, in theory, Kushans should be


                        As for Parthia, yes, most likely I'm lying, and godlessly - you are right, Kushan is northeast, and ancient Khorezm is north. Most likely, the Turkmen brothers can claim the heritage of the Parthian kingdom. But, nevertheless, a sufficiently powerful political and economic influence of this kingdom on the entire region, no doubt.

                        Iran, a mountainous country, be there even beyond the civilization of roads will no longer be


                        The mountainous country, the mountainous country is different. As far as I remember, Iran’s mountain folding dates back to the Precambrian period. The mountains are quite old - highlands and plateaus prevail. The highest peaks, as I recall, are located in the northwest and north. From Turan to Mesopotamia, it’s mainly plateaus.

                        Like that...
                      6. de_monSher
                        de_monSher April 15 2016 12: 50
                        0
                        150 thousand people is the maximum that Napoleon collected


                        Europe, recovering from the epidemics of the Middle Ages, only by the 17th, 18th century was more or less able to correct the demographic situation. Hence the more than half a million army of Napoleon. The demographic situation in Asia has always been different.
                      7. Cartalon
                        Cartalon April 15 2016 13: 40
                        0
                        I’m not talking about how many people can be gathered, but about the number of troops, China could have gathered a huge number of people, but a very small number of fighting forces, otherwise no one would have conquered it, regarding the prosperity of Central Asia after the fall of the Samanids when one Semi-nomadic dynasty replaced another every 100 roughly speaking, and all this was accompanied by wars that were either external or civil, it was unlikely that everything was so wonderful there
                      8. de_monSher
                        de_monSher April 15 2016 14: 59
                        0
                        Nuuuu ... probably not China, but Xi Xia Tangutov, the Khitan Empire, Liao, Nanzhao - this is without a hint what comes to mind about the states that existed in China at that time ... *)

                        But it was, from the very beginning, about the thousands of troops of Timur. If you noticed, I’m not trying hard to put pressure on this moment, mainly giving indirect evidence that he could not, simply, with a small army, conquer Asia Minor, the Caucasus, the Middle East and die preparing a campaign on the territory of modern China ... *))
                      9. Cartalon
                        Cartalon April 15 2016 15: 49
                        +1
                        The maximum possible number on TVD of 200 thousand is no longer possible to feed and manage is not possible, for those operations that he spent 120-150 thousand hours would be enough for the eyes, for 100 before him the Mongols solved the same tasks with corps of 30 tons of horsemen, besides Timur did not conquer the land in in our understanding, robbed, took an oath went further, at least he had an administration in Khorosan?
                      10. de_monSher
                        de_monSher April 15 2016 16: 07
                        0
                        at least he had an administration in Khorosan?


                        Well, in Khorasan his son seemed to sit on the board ... sort of like that, if I remember exactly ... *)
  • V.ic
    V.ic April 13 2016 07: 07
    +3
    The article is good, there are no words, however, in the book of L.N. Gumilyov "Ancient Russia and the Great Steppe" the material on this topic is presented no less vividly.
  • Mangel olys
    Mangel olys April 13 2016 07: 47
    +5
    Mostly Timurid sources exist on this issue, but they do not shine with impartiality. The author should have links to sources at the end of the article. They are not. Meanwhile, Timur’s attitude to Toktamysh can be explained by the fact that Toktamysh was the grandson of Suyurgatmysh as a generation, Timur was Suyurgatmysh’s son-in-law, Timur had formal grounds for manifesting parental feelings, however, it’s hard to find at least one more example. when “iron chrome” in the face of overt aggression remained so meek and patient for so long. Timur’s willingness to excuse Toktamysh and shift responsibility for periodically arising conflicts to bad advisers seems to mean only one thing - relations with Toktamysh were of particular value to him, far exceeding the damage caused by the military shares of the Golden Horde. So not everything is as simple as Samsonov and his team write. And there are many similar examples for this article.
    1. V.ic
      V.ic April 13 2016 09: 26
      0
      Quote: Mangel Olys
      they do not shine with impartialityаso

      Check: what's upюt = brillianceут
      1. Mangel olys
        Mangel olys April 13 2016 13: 30
        +3
        Quote: V.ic
        Quote: Mangel Olys
        they do not shine with impartialityаso

        Check: what's upюt = brillianceут

        As a Tatar, I am entitled to a 25% discount. smile Well, seriously, thanks for the comment. Guilty - I’ll correct.
        1. 97110
          97110 April 13 2016 17: 08
          +2
          Quote: Mangel Olys
          As a Tatar, I am entitled to a 25% discount

          The head of the port sent his chief engineer (Tatar) to Chelny "Kamaz" to receive. It happened in the USSR. He arrived at KAMAZ and said to the locals: I am a Tatar. Those answer: So what? We are all Tatars here. So it is here. Discounts are only offered to union members.
    2. Riv
      Riv April 13 2016 13: 10
      +2
      Actually, it’s far from the fact that it was Tokhtamysh who spoiled Timur’s little things and ran into a scandal. Well, there were some minor border conflicts, as they always were, and this is not a reason for world war. Most likely the matter is different.

      Tokhtamysh, having restored the Horde, blocked Timur's trade routes to Russia and Europe. Now this is a reason, and what a reason! And Timur's "peacefulness" in this case has a purely practical basis: a war could have cost more than a bad peace. But when Tokhtamysh attracted the ruler of Khorezm to his side, everything became very bad and had to, as they say, roll up our sleeves.

      Actually the result of this disassembly became his power. Apparently Timur somehow liked it, but the neighbors were rather weak. It was hard to stop. In general, everything happened by chance.
      1. marshes
        marshes April 13 2016 13: 20
        0
        Quote: Riv

        Having restored the Horde, Tokhtamysh blocked Timur's trade routes to Russia and to Europe. This is already an occasion, and what a reason!

        And this is one of the constituent parts of the GDP of any country. laughing
        Even now, if one or another country is blocked from foreign trade, it will cause not only indignation but also war.
    3. Mangel olys
      Mangel olys April 13 2016 17: 07
      +1
      And yet, I found one source describing the "partisan" struggle of the Tatars against the armies of Lame Timur (Aksak Temir). I will try to place it here with the permission of the site administration.
      1. marshes
        marshes April 13 2016 17: 19
        +1
        Quote: Mangel Olys
        And yet, I found one source describing the "partisan" struggle of the Tatars against the armies of Lame Timur (Aksak Temir). I will try to place it here with the permission of the site administration.

        By the way, how do you get along with the Mari smile It’s great to see that they have 30% of Turkic words in their language smile If you take MARI EL, el-land and country. laughing
        PYSYT, I’m half a Mari, for my mother. laughing And so Kazakh laughing on the father, we are not Jews laughing You can say true Mari. laughing
        1. Mangel olys
          Mangel olys April 13 2016 17: 25
          +2
          We live, as elsewhere in Russia - in peace, friendship and harmony. smile It doesn't matter who you are by nationality, if only you were a Man.
  • parusnik
    parusnik April 13 2016 07: 48
    +3
    Timur unexpectedly decided not to go further and turned south...... The 150th advance detachment of Tamerlane approached Yelets, there were only 2000 defenders in the fortress, since women, old people and children were previously withdrawn from the fortress through underground passages. Thus, for every Russian warrior, there were 75 mercenaries of Tamerlane. At the time of the siege, there was terrible heat, it was increasingly difficult to extinguish the fires, but the defenders of the fortress lasted as long as 2 weeks, during which they were exterminated without exception ... Well, it makes sense .. each such town has two weeks to stand .. Lose the best fighters .. So without an army one could remain ..
    1. Sascha
      Sascha April 13 2016 18: 56
      +2
      Somewhere I read some studies of the economy of that time in Russia. So, the tribute paid to the Horde for the year was two times less than the income of one city of Samarkand. It is clear that tribute and income for the year are two different things. But then Russia was an extremely poor state, compared with the cities of Central Asia, the Levant and India. They are many times smaller in terms of the number of inhabitants, and are located inaccessible for the equestrian army of nomads. Distances are large, prey is scanty, a wooded landscape is hostile and uncomfortable for the inhabitant of the south.
      I think the main reason is the discrepancy between the potential military production and the difficulties of the campaign. Russia did not pose a real threat to Timur's empire. The most "fat" and significant trade routes do not go through it ... It is a remotely located, poor, sparsely populated country. The distant ass of the then Ecumene.
      Yelets, just got "under the hand" during the Great Hunt for Tokhtamysh.
  • bober1982
    bober1982 April 13 2016 07: 55
    +4
    In Samara, the memory of the battle of Tamerlane and Tokhtamysh is preserved, in the village of Volzhsky (Tsarevshchina), a suburb of the city, there is a very remarkable mound - Tsarev Kurgan, with which there are many legends, according to one of which: Tamerlan climbed this mound.
    The obedient cross, of course, was not established in honor of Tamerlane; according to legend, Peter I and Catherine II also visited the mound.
  • Aposlya
    Aposlya April 13 2016 08: 09
    -1
    In 1381, on the Kalka River, he defeated the army of the Temnik of Mamai, who had lost the main forces in the Battle of Kulikovo a year before.


    What a gon? !!! In fact, the battle of Kalk between Tokhtamysh and Mamai took place in September 1380!
    We read: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamai
    A little later, in September 1380, a decisive battle took place between the troops of Mamaia and Tokhtamysh. The historian V. G. Lyaskoronsky suggested that this battle “on the Kalki” took place in the area of ​​small rivers, left tributaries of the Dnieper near the rapids [1].
    1. creak
      creak April 13 2016 10: 02
      +2
      Quote: Aposlya
      What a gon? !!! In fact, the battle of Kalk between Tokhtamysh and Mamai took place in September 1380!


      That's exactly what kind of a race - in fact, it was the Battle of Kulikovo that took place in September 1380 - the 600th anniversary of this event was celebrated in our country in 1980 ...
      1. creak
        creak April 13 2016 10: 35
        0
        And the Battle of Kulikovo (heard of this) it was between Dmitry Donskoy and Mamai (Tokhtamysh wasn’t close there) - this is a well-known fact and no one questioned him before you ..
        Read something more serious than the Wiki article and don't be so categorical in your statements ..
        In Wikipedia, there are not such "pearls" ... belay
        1. ver_
          ver_ April 13 2016 16: 06
          0
          ... and what "drove" Dmitry Donskoy had .. (Marshal Zhukov - Vasiliev) ..
        2. Aposlya
          Aposlya April 14 2016 13: 30
          0
          Actually, the battle between Mamai and Tokhtamysh is also known from Arab sources, as well as its date - September 1380.
  • Adik89
    Adik89 April 13 2016 08: 21
    0
    And there was also an article here, whether the Tatar-Mongol yoke and Genghis Khan himself were in doubt. Well, since there were Genghisides who interfered with Iron Khromts, well, since there was a Horde, after which the princes ran for labels, they gathered 100 thousandth army and burned Moscow, so all the same there was a Tatar-Mongol yoke !!!

    And they sit and consider how many horses can be fed in Russian lands. The answer in the same article is 100 thousand.
    1. alicante11
      alicante11 April 13 2016 12: 34
      +3
      And there was also an article here, whether the Tatar-Mongol yoke and Genghis Khan himself were in doubt


      Well, the article did not dispel doubt.
      Let's say we need to recall the problems of the tsarist army (and later the Red Army) in the conquest of Bukhara. There, in fact, waterlessness was a greater enemy than the natives. I wonder how Tamerlan solved the problem of water supply to the hundred thousandth Horse Army?

      Again, it is very good that there is a wagon for 15 light (or five heavy) riders, BUT, is it really possible to store food in it for several months? IMHO - no. But the organization of convoy service both in the armies of the "Mongols" and in the armies of Tamerlane of hundreds of thousands, somehow did not have to be seen. The "chroniclers" apparently do not bother with these questions.

      It seems to me that all these hundreds of thousands are a significant exaggeration. And real numbers need to be reduced at least 10 times.
      1. Adik89
        Adik89 April 13 2016 13: 46
        +2
        In 1917, our Revolutionary Amangeldy Imanov gathered 50 thousandth horse troops and occupied the Turgai region - this is the center of Kazakhstan.

        Any Kazakh khan held a 10 thousand army at his headquarters and in the nearby auls. They were called "Tolengit".
        1. marshes
          marshes April 13 2016 14: 25
          +1
          Quote: Adik89
          They were called "Tolengit".

          There is also a Kazakh clan. I had a soldier with the surname of Tolengits, it is clear that my father or grandfather. From East Kazakhstan region, in those days I did not ask who and what kind smile Just one got me from the descendants of Ablai, Kerey. Then he began to study. smile So he is clearly a Mongol or Zhongar, low under 1.5 m., Black, wheel alignment. laughing
        2. alicante11
          alicante11 April 13 2016 14: 34
          +1
          In 1917, our Revolutionary Amangeldy Imanov gathered 50 thousandth horse troops and occupied the Turgai region - this is the center of Kazakhstan.


          In more detail, where can this be read? I am always interested in supply issues. And there was also a trip to 2 kilometers?

          Any Kazakh khan held a 10 thousand army at his headquarters and in the nearby auls. They were called "Tolengit".


          Well, I didn’t say anything about the 10 bayonets. By and large, such a detachment can even feed on the go on the go.
          1. marshes
            marshes April 13 2016 14: 51
            0
            Quote: alicante11
            I am always interested in supply issues.

            What I learned from my ancestors.
            Three horses, interchangeable. No one shoeed them, in the past a discussion about horseshoes and iron raised one. Why, shoe shoe if the steppe.
            On horses, supplies, weapons. If the wagon train, camels, horses, yurt-wagons can be set up in 4 hours, I will put up an "asphalt" Kazakh in a village faster.
            Food-cereals, flour, mutton fat, the same horse. They also drove the rams.
            Horses of the Mongolian-Kazakh breed are not whimsical in food. These are not Turkmen Alkhatkekins. They are 50 km tolerant. Alaman Baige freely pass the distance, do not "get washed out"
            The main thing is water! You’ll find food. laughing
            1. alicante11
              alicante11 April 13 2016 15: 22
              +4
              Food-cereals, flour, mutton fat, the same horse. They also drove the rams.


              Three horses, interchangeable.


              Total for the army of one hundred thousand already need 400tys horses !!! No matter how unpretentious they are, they stupidly gobble up all the grass in the area.
              I am not against the fact that they could go camping in small groups of several hundred sabers, but major military operations ... nonsense.

              The main thing is water! You’ll find food. laughing


              And why do all armies of thieves-quartermasters contain ...
              1. marshes
                marshes April 13 2016 15: 41
                +1
                Quote: alicante11
                I am not against the fact that they could go camping in small groups of several hundred sabers, but major military operations ... nonsense.

                So they gathered in small detachments. At designated points. There were many roads, but for the steppe, the entire steppe. Consider the living Turks in the forest-steppe zone. The same Nogais with the Adays, like the Polovtsy, KIPCHAKI .. ​​Tatars and Bashkirs, etc. ... The main thing is the idea.
                Quote: alicante11
                And why do all armies of thieves-quartermasters contain ...

                But this came from the Europeans. The contents of the reg.army. Here about the Chinese tales told about bags of rice, although the last empire of manzur led a nomadic lifestyle.
                And in the steppes there are saigas, spruces (Siberian roe deer), wild boars, pheasants, ducks, marmots, badgers, hares and many others. And in central Russia there is an even richer choice.
                1. alicante11
                  alicante11 April 16 2016 13: 19
                  +1
                  So they gathered in small units. At designated points


                  Yeah, the coordinates of the "place" were taken via ZHPS or GLONASS, and communication was maintained via HF radio stations. One hundred thousand people "in small detachments - this, no less than a hundred such" detachments "will be. Here Moltke with his" go vroe - beat together ", is resting.
            2. ver_
              ver_ April 13 2016 18: 39
              0
              ... and how does a non-horseshoe horse go on the ice .., there will be a cow on the ice - even there is such a proverb ..
              1. marshes
                marshes April 13 2016 18: 50
                0
                Quote: ver_
                ... and how does a non-horseshoe horse go on the ice .., there will be a cow on the ice - even there is such a proverb ..

                Tie the hooves with burlap, darkness. laughing The horse itself has smile an Alkhaketian crossbreed with a Kazakh, I go hunting, although I’ve been savvy, but I wrap my hooves in burlap so that there would be no noise — the wild boars are sensitive to this. smile
                1. ver_
                  ver_ April 13 2016 19: 46
                  -3
                  ... comparison of horseradish with a finger, do not you find? ..
        3. ver_
          ver_ April 13 2016 19: 10
          +1
          ... I recommend looking for the number of Kazakhs in the 14th year .. I think this will not please you ..
          1. marshes
            marshes April 13 2016 19: 21
            +1
            Quote: ver_
            ... I recommend looking for the number of Kazakhs in the 14th year .. I think this will not please you ..

            Yes, after the arrival of the Russians, after the war with the Dzungars, Kalmyks and Buryats.
            Then a rather interesting number of Kazakhs was until the 20s, you can read "Small October", in the thirties where 40% of Kazakhs died of hunger in general, by the way in the UN it is considered genocide, the destruction of 20% of the indigenous population. Surprisingly, in China, 100 thousand Kazakhs increased to half a million. smile Karl 1.5 million Karl. smile Although the Chinese fought in the 30-50g. last century.
      2. Sascha
        Sascha April 13 2016 19: 05
        +1
        Everything is possible with the right approach. For most of the year, the Kazakh steppes really are a black spot for the traveler. In the summer, heat, in winter, frost is a continuous nourishment for hundreds of kilometers. No walls can protect against invasion. But in the spring, there is a very short period (several weeks) when it rains and the entire steppe is covered with grasses. It was at this time that all trips through the Kazakh steppes were planned at all times, both from north to south, and from south to north.
    2. ver_
      ver_ April 13 2016 16: 11
      -4
      ... yeah - the Mongol yoke was bulo, and the Mongols were not bulo ..., paradism .., did you learn from Zadorny? ..
      1. Aposlya
        Aposlya April 14 2016 13: 53
        0
        Well, it depends on how you "look". If we mean those Mongols who are now called Mongols, i.e. Kalmyks and Hulk, they appeared in Central Asia only in the 16th century - it was in the 16th century that they conquered Moghulistan (the territory of the south and east of Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan), the Kazakh Khanate and advanced right up to the Yenisei. If we mean the Mongols from the 13th century, then there are only Kazakh tribes - Rashid Ad Din has a list of Genghis Khan's ulus, by the way there he specially emphasizes that all these tribes are Turks.
        1. Hurray
          Hurray April 15 2016 06: 16
          0
          Well, why then don't you call yourself "Mongols" although in the Great Yasa the Lord orders his descendants to be called "Mongols". If you remember, no one dared to disobey Him! Indeed, most of the "Kazakhs" are of Mongolian origin, especially the Elder Zhuz. But the descendants of the Kipchaks who ruled on the territory of modern Kazakhstan and the wars with the Dzungars (Western Mongols) plus Islam led to alienation from eastern relatives and the emergence of the Kazakh nation. Although even now morphologically modern Kazakhs are very heterogeneous. This is a relatively young people trying to assert themselves, including inventing their own "history". It is not for nothing that the GDP has clearly expressed itself on the account of the "Kazakh" statehood. By blood, most of them are Mongols, by the name of the Kipchaks, by faith, Muslims. Every ethnologist will tell you that this is a mixture of Mongolian and nomadic Iranian (Kipchak) tribes.
          1. Aposlya
            Aposlya April 15 2016 07: 22
            0
            Quote: Hurray
            Why then don't you call yourself "Mongols" even though in Velikaya Yasa

            You collected such nonsense in one heap that at least stand, even fall !!! laughing
            Where and in what place of Yasa was it that Genghis Khan called the tribes of his ulus the Mongols? !!! There is no such thing in Yasa. Yasa is just a code of laws, which has now become mythologized to naught, since it does not have such written confirmation, but there are only some mentions of it in Persian sources. In the Russian translation of Rashid Ad Din, there is a mention of the fact that Genghis Khan called all his tribes the Mongols. This translation was made by the linguist Berezin during the time of Stalin and he did it from a French translation (the original was in Persian). So - in the French "original" there is no word Mongol, but there is MOGOL. Well, we know very well who the Mughal Turks are, these are mainly the Kazakh tribes that are now present in the Elder and Middle Zhuz.
            Modern Mongols, i.e. Kalmyks-Dzungars and Halka have nothing to do with the Turks. They have different ancestors. If among the Türks they are Huns-Scythians, then among the present-day Mongols they are Tunguses. Dzungars back in the 18th century, our ancestors called the word "dunkhyz", i.e. tungus.
            As for the "youth" of my people, you are your fingers in the sky! The tribes of the Kazakhs are known even in BC - for example, Uysun, Kiyati, etc. Well, the Persians called them by the word KAZAK back in the 10th century AD, to which there is also documentary evidence.
            The Kazakhs do not have a single clan or tribe with a "Mongolian" ancestry, since the Mongol could not become the ancestor of the Turkic tribe - this is from the realm of fantasy! laughing I will tell you even more - the Mongols did not have and have no tribal clans at all, they are divided by geographical feature, by aimaks (districts) of residence. They were initially sedentary and only under the influence of the Manjur (rustles) in the 15-16 centuries became nomads ...
            Well, as for the expression of GDP, the flag is in his hands - the President is not a historian, and even more so he should not be guided in the history of not his state. Well, he blurted out of ignorance on Seliger, so to speak, he wanted to do something nice for Nazarbayev, that they say that the Kazakh sovereign was the first sovereign among the Kazakhs, but where to put the Usun kingdom BC? Turkic Khaganates? Kipchak Khanates? Naiman Khanate? The Golden Horde? Kazakh Khanate? Like it didn’t exist? Well, and how far do you want to go in your cave chauvinism?
            1. Cartalon
              Cartalon April 15 2016 11: 02
              0
              You would write an article on the origin of the Kazakhs, otherwise you would not like to arrange a dispute here
              1. Aposlya
                Aposlya April 16 2016 07: 36
                0
                So why? Who needs to get enough material, but just to write - well, I'm not a writer ... hi
            2. Hurray
              Hurray April 17 2016 07: 00
              0
              Smiled. It reminded Ukrainians with their assertion that they are the real "Russian" Rusichi, etc. This is a mess in your head, then write that it is not written in the VY, then right there on the next line they say VY does not exist at all, etc. Don't be angry, but you have a problem with the logic. You will agree with the Ukrainians and change the names of their countries. I offer a choice:
              for Ukrainians: Russia, Rusko
              for you: Mogolstan, Mogolia, etc.
              It will reassure you and finally do real things. Good luck!
  • Cartalon
    Cartalon April 13 2016 08: 49
    +3
    Half a million fighters can still be believed, but a million fl overs
    1. Aposlya
      Aposlya April 13 2016 08: 55
      +1
      Quote: Cartalon
      Half a million fighters can still be believed, but a million fl overs


      something I also can’t believe that there in the battle even the lemon of the fighters could converge ... request
      1. ver_
        ver_ April 13 2016 18: 50
        +2
        ..and do you actually measure the population in those days of everything and how much of the population were warriors? .. I’m gaining how the population mowed the epidemic in the Middle Ages .. There’s no need to talk about any hundreds of thousands of horses .. Tales are all and hyperbole. .
  • Aposlya
    Aposlya April 13 2016 09: 04
    +2
    Quote: Portolan
    And in your understanding, the bazaar can be organized in a clean field, but you do not need to build a city for this.

    This is most likely in your understanding, I did not say that. The same cities in Kazakhstan go along the entire Silk Road. The fact that cities carry in themselves and production capacities do not cancel their trade focus ...
    1. Portolan
      Portolan April 13 2016 09: 46
      +3
      Quote: Aposlya
      This is most likely in your understanding, I did not say that. The same cities in Kazakhstan go along the entire Silk Road. The fact that cities carry in themselves and production capacities do not cancel their trade focus ...


      which cities are "all along the Silk Road?"
      in short, first build cities, then don’t build cities, livestock graze first, then live in the city, then livestock graze again, it’s not done. If a city is ravaged, ALWAYS RESTORE it if the population remains, but the population in the Horde remains, so there’s still a hundred there were years of yoke in Russia, but these are not solid connections.
      1. marshes
        marshes April 13 2016 10: 23
        +1
        Quote: Portolan
        which cities are "all along the Silk Road?"

        Cities: Otrar, Taraz, Sairam (Ispidzhab), Turkestan (Iasi), Suyab, Balasagun and others, were not only shopping centers, but also centers of science and culture. In ancient times, Taraz was called the city of merchants. Narrow streets, like streams, flocked to the center - a polyphonic bazaar.

        http://www.kazakhstan.orexca.com/rus/silk_road.shtml
        I would also add small towns in those days along the Kuldzhinsky direction. Talgar (Talkhyz), Almaty, Bishkek (Dzhul), Tashkent. They with the above-described cities, small parking lots, lined up in a single chain, the distance between them was almost equal and amounted to a day transition caravan.
        1. Portolan
          Portolan April 13 2016 11: 11
          +4
          Quote: marshes
          Otrar, Taraz

          Otrar is a city of ruins, like Sarai, it is not clear when it was destroyed and for what reason people came from there, Chimkent back in the 19th century was a small Kokand fortress, and the fact that some ruins were found there is not proof that it used to be was a city

          Quote: marshes
          , Almaty, Bishkek (Jul), Tashkent


          Verny-Almaty is a Cossack village and the Cossacks lived there
          Pishpek-Frunze-Bishkek is the same, maybe the end of the 18th beginning of the 19th century in the Kokand fortress
          What I want to say is the existence of the Great Silk Road is questioned, because silkworms are forest pests in Russian forests, it happened that the forests were cleaned up, this caterpillar was dying, the silk silkworms were slightly inferior to mulberry in the quality of silk, but matter can be made. a mulberry tree, it is full in Central Asia, and why should it be brought from far China? -It is not clear, therefore, referring to the old cities is how to refer to the pyramids -It is not clear who built them and why they were destroyed.
          1. marshes
            marshes April 13 2016 11: 38
            +1
            Quote: Portolan
            Otrar is a city of ruins

            It was destroyed by the Mongols, For not submission.
            Quote: Portolan
            Shimkent back in the 19th century was a small Kokand fortress, and the fact that some ruins were found there is not proof that before it was a city

            Therefore, he brought Tashkent.
            Quote: Portolan
            Verny-Almaty is a Cossack village and the Cossacks lived there

            In what years? Cossacks themselves in their reports describe Almaty, settlements with developed agriculture.
            I will publish the document again.
            8 August, 1853

            Kargaly

            G. Corps Commander

            I had the honor to inform Your Excellency of my intentions to survey the peaks of Almaty. Having examined the first and second Almaty and the valley between them with engineer-lieutenant Aleksandrovsky, we found the convenience of logging, a large number of beautiful arable land rugged by irrigation ditches, pastures and hayfields, far exceeding the tracts in Issyk and Talgar, which is why Almaty was offered the place of the future settlements, moreover, through occupation of this point, all the best nomads and arable lands of Dulat will be at our fingertips. Unfortunately I can’t take this p ...

            (the end of the first sheet of the report is badly damaged and destroyed)

            - Centre. Gos. Archive of the Republic of Kazakhstan, f.3, op.1, case 7

            Quote: Portolan
            Pishpek-Frunze-Bishkek is the same, maybe the end of the 18th beginning of the 19th century in the Kokand fortress

            Read the available Wikipedia, by the way, at the bottom, sources from where the material is taken are always presented.
            Quote: Portolan
            I want to say that the existence of the Great Silk Road is being questioned

            They traded more than one silk, and there was a variety of goods that were used by different nations. In modern times, it is like container transportation on existing routes, With logistics in large cities. A kind of shuttle train that now runs between China and Iran, Turkey, Germany .. A product is something like a relay stick.
            1. Portolan
              Portolan April 13 2016 12: 30
              +2
              Quote: marshes
              It was destroyed by the Mongols, For not submission.


              the fact that the Mongols created a huge army went to conquer to the last sea - this version is now subject to reasonable criticism and doubt

              Quote: marshes
              In what years? Cossacks themselves in their reports describe Almaty, settlements with developed agriculture.


              maybe only who was farming there?

              Quote: marshes
              peaks of Almaty

              Quote: marshes
              first and second Almaty


              strange names of toponyms, especially "peaks of Almaty" - what are these mountains? But there is the Alatoo ridge, and the rivers are called Bolshaya and Malaya Almatinka, or was the ridge called Almato before?
              1. marshes
                marshes April 13 2016 12: 43
                +1
                Quote: Portolan
                the fact that the Mongols created a huge army went to conquer to the last sea - this version is now subject to reasonable criticism and doubt

                So this is not modern Mongols, but Mongol Turks, I would call it that.
                Quote: Portolan
                maybe only who was farming there?

                The same Dulats that are described in the report. By the way, this helped to alleviate hunger in the 20s and 30s of the last century.
                Quote: Portolan
                strange names of toponyms, especially "peaks of Almaty" - what are these mountains?

                These are settlements, after all, they were engaged in reconnaissance. I'm more interested in the lost part of the report-
                why they proposed Almaty the place of the future settlement, and through occupation of this point all the best nomads and arable lands of Dulat will be at our fingertips. Unfortunately I can’t take this p ...

                (the end of the first sheet of the report is badly damaged and destroyed)]

                When was damaged and destroyed? smile
                Quote: Portolan
                but there ridge Alatoo

                According to the Kyrgyz as well as Alatau.
                P / S Who are Dulats you can read in Wik, so I myself from this kind laughing
                1. Riv
                  Riv April 13 2016 13: 38
                  +3
                  What other Mongols? Forget about them. No Mongols came to Russia.

                  But where did the word come from? .. Elementary, Watson! On the Syrdarya there is a rather large mountainous region Mogol-tau (or -tai). "Mogul" in Türkic meant "head of the clan, elder", and "tau" - "big, tall, great". The area around is also called "Mogul". Ethnonym. That is, the casket opens as easy as shelling pears: one of the Turkic clans originated from this area, from which the era of the Horde began.

                  By the way: in Turkic words are often ambiguous. For example: "ak" - "white". Have you heard about Akbars? But "ak" also means "plain". Do you understand the meaning of the name "White Horde"? This is simply a distorted ethnonym. The point is not that white people lived there, but that the landscape is plain. Or "kara" - "black", or "mountain". "Karakorum" was clearly located somewhere in the mountains, and not in the Mongolian steppe.

                  Well, the title of the Great Mughals is the same. "Mogul" is not any Mongol, but an honorable nickname. Like a "master".
                  1. marshes
                    marshes April 13 2016 14: 01
                    0
                    The same to take Mogulistan. It is easy to read in Wik. Türks - Mongols, Moguls.
                    By the way, the Barlas clan, the Tamerlane clan entered there.
                    There is still an interesting kind of Tabyn, I began to study because of my son-in-law. So it is customary to celebrate a wedding if you are not a relative to the seventh generation, the Unspoken Law of Zheti Ata, seven generations. So he is akin to Dulat and the Mongols and took him already to the west of Kazakhstan, Interestingly, the Bashkir family also has the Tabyn family.
                    1. Riv
                      Riv April 13 2016 17: 21
                      +2
                      It is logical. "Stan", by the way, is also a Turkic word and also has several meanings: "region", "country", or simply "parking place".

                      "Dastan" - "story" (also from there). By the way: "yes" is a very ambiguous union in the Russian language, which is by no means always affirmative. For example a reinforcing phrase. "Yes of course!" (triple affirmation = negation). And the old Slavic analogue: "so" is completely unambiguous. In Russian, there is not just a lot of Turkisms, they are all there.
                      1. marshes
                        marshes April 13 2016 17: 37
                        0
                        Quote: Riv
                        It is logical. "Mill

                        Recently, Stan is considered to be of Persian significance.
                        If you take the target audience, then here it is intertwined in a "ball".
                        Even Kazakh clans, those who are north of the obvious Mongoloids, more Europioids are southern, it is not strange. But we are still KAZAKH.
                        Quote: Riv
                        In Russian, it’s not just the fucking Turkism, they’re all over there.

                        Damn, you have almost half of the nobles, they have "Tatar" roots.
                        There, in the discussed halotype of blood, it’s on a neighboring site, so that the Kyrgyz have a common type of blood, you can google it. Damn they lived on the Yenisei, they pricked Isykul, we didn’t watch Dulaty. laughing
                      2. Aposlya
                        Aposlya April 14 2016 14: 00
                        0
                        Kyrgyz in the 18th century, the Russian Empress exiled to the territory of modern Kyrgyzstan. The Kalmyks (jungars) carried out the migration - so to speak under guard. They are still called the Yenisei Kyrgyz - they came here from the Yenisei.
                2. Aposlya
                  Aposlya April 14 2016 13: 57
                  0
                  Judging by the annals of Rashid AD Din, the Karakorum was somewhere in Semirechye, since Rashid AD Din wrote that the Karakorum was two days away from Taraz. Where is Taraz (Dzhambul) and where is Mongolia ?!
          2. ver_
            ver_ April 13 2016 16: 26
            0
            ..the trade route went through Derbent to China .. there is no other road - either an impenetrable desert, or the Altai mountains .. I recommend "The March Throw of the Iron Special Forces of Genghis Khan" by Loskutov .. an entertaining analysis ..
        2. ver_
          ver_ April 13 2016 17: 55
          0
          ... the main destroyer is time .. Nothing lasts forever under the moon .. "
        3. ver_
          ver_ April 13 2016 20: 51
          +1
          ..the merchant = the merchant lives by distributing goods, transporting them to where there are none .. He, in principle, a pioneer .., for one thing he spreads information about the events that happened (gossip), and the Chinese wrote everything down and .. through the centuries Europeans "deciphered" these hieroglyphs - which are 500 years old and are no longer used - make sensational discoveries about the Mongols who conquered the World ..
    2. ver_
      ver_ April 13 2016 18: 13
      0
      .. throughout the Silk Road stood a caravan of sheds, where there were wells or sources of water .. The caravanserais were guarded by guards .. The defensive towers that the Georgians built were still preserved
      1. marshes
        marshes April 13 2016 18: 21
        0
        Quote: ver_
        .. throughout the Silk Road stood a caravan of sheds, where there were wells or sources of water .. The caravanserais were guarded by guards

        Yes, moreover, catering, hotel business and baths. The barn is not a household. The building is a palace.
        Quote: ver_
        The defense towers built by the Georgians are still preserved.

        Where? Or is it from the category of astronautics.
        1. ver_
          ver_ April 13 2016 20: 43
          0
          .. these towers were shown in the program of the Cinema Travelers Club and who built them told - they still stand, but time didn’t spare them, some are badly damaged, some look tolerant ..
          1. marshes
            marshes April 13 2016 20: 51
            0
            Quote: ver_
            .. these towers were shown in the program of the Cinema Travelers Club and who built them told - they still stand, but time didn’t spare them, some are badly damaged, some look tolerant ..

            And that the Georgians built only one, the Nokhchis are full of towers. In the tradition of hiding and firing back.
            And who showed Senkevich? The kingdom to him is heaven.
            Armenians, Neostorians, or like them, with Jews on these paths sat and made good money, and they weren’t on it.
            Not long ago, nomads in Kalmykia, live on the lands of the almost exterminated Nogais, showed themselves to the Highlanders.
            1. ver_
              ver_ April 13 2016 21: 08
              0
              .. I don’t know, they invited artisans from Georgia .. Apparently they had enough of their affairs ..
        2. Hurray
          Hurray April 16 2016 06: 56
          0
          C'mon, this is a Kyrgyz-Kaisak astronaut, a joke.
  • vomag
    vomag April 13 2016 09: 20
    +5
    Yes, again, the same troops in 100-250 thousand (then a million) laughing ... hiking over distances from 2000 to 4000 thousand km ... people wake up this is nonsense! This is pseudoscience from history written by anyone .. you are not tired of reading fairy tales? No?
    1. V.ic
      V.ic April 13 2016 09: 32
      -5
      Quote: vomag
      Yes, again, the same troops in 100-250 thousand (then a million) ... hiking over distances from 2000 to 4000 thousand kilometers ...

      Do not be afraid of such a number. For Tokhtamysh, the army is a militia, and for Tamerlane = professionals // mercenaries / who knew how to lift a ring from the ground with the tip of a spear at a gallop /. A pro in any way "breaks off the horns" of the militia.
      1. alicante11
        alicante11 April 13 2016 12: 49
        +5
        A pro in any way will "break off the horns" of the militia.


        Yes, in this, as it were, there is no doubt, the issue of huge quantities and their supply. Daily food supply per 100 thousand. people will be 300-500 tons. It will be 600-1000 "wagons". And this is the day. With a range of 2000 km and an average speed of a horse-drawn wagon train, let it be 50 km / day, the supply will last 40 days. Those. you need 20-40 thousand wagons ", not counting the turnover. But the coachmen of the wagons and the convoy cover detachments also need to be fed. So for each" combat "bayonet there will be a carrier.
        1. V.ic
          V.ic April 13 2016 19: 13
          0
          Quote: alicante11
          Daily food supply for 100 thousand. people will be 300-500 tons. It will be 600-1000 "wagons". And this is the day. With a range of 2000 km and an average speed of a horse-drawn wagon train, let it be 50 km / day, the supply will last 40 days. Those. you need 20-40 thousand wagons ", not counting the turnover. But the coachmen of the wagons and the convoy cover detachments also need to be fed. So for each" combat "bayonet there will be a carrier.

          Here is the logic of a graduate of the Yaroslavl school "felt". "Go," at least once in your life, for a rafting, dry the crackers, by the way, LN Gumilyov in his works quoted the figure of 40 (forty) days when the vassal was obliged to support the overlord / until the smoked ham "stinks" / ... Didn't you understand anything about the round-up hunt? The author has forgotten, but m. I missed that the movement of Timurleng's troops followed the grass until the spring sun dried it. So the jerky game plus koumiss could well support the forces of Tamerlane's warriors.
      2. ver_
        ver_ April 21 2016 14: 52
        0
        Quote: V.ic
        Quote: vomag
        Yes, again, the same troops in 100-250 thousand (then a million) ... hiking over distances from 2000 to 4000 thousand kilometers ...

        Do not be afraid of such a number. For Tokhtamysh, the army is a militia, and for Tamerlane = professionals // mercenaries / who knew how to lift a ring from the ground with the tip of a spear at a gallop /. A pro in any way "breaks off the horns" of the militia.


        ... I swear to mom - I saw it myself ..
    2. Stiletto_711
      Stiletto_711 April 13 2016 22: 11
      +1
      http://topwar.ru/93146-poboische-bronzovogo-veka.html
      Here is an article about archaeological excavations at the site of the battle that took place in the Bronze Age (about 3200 years ago) in northern Europe. According to archaeologists, about 4000 people could have been involved in the clash, horses were used in the battle. Before these excavations were carried out, an event of this magnitude in this region and in this historical period was considered impossible.
      You can give a lot of reasons why this could not be, point out the low population density, the absence of any logistics network, the inability to ensure the supply of such a large group of people using the management methods of that time, and so on. That's just all the arguments are broken down into one, but the most important circumstance is that when people start a war, people do not reckon with any difficulties that get in their way. There are ways to resolve or circumvent the obstacles that arise, everything is sacrificed to one goal - to achieve victory over the enemy.
      I am sure that in 500 years they will defend dissertations that "the blockade of Leningrad could not last so long" or "during the First World War a huge number of people could not have been in the trenches for so long in terrible conditions" and of course "Napoleon could not manage a huge army, he did not have even the simplest radio communication. " So, I congratulate you living in delirium that constitutes the basis of pseudoscience, which in the future will certainly be exposed and refuted.
  • Yereke
    Yereke April 13 2016 09: 55
    -1
    so Lame fulfilled the dream of Geyropa ... no worse than the internal enemy
  • Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 April 13 2016 10: 37
    +2
    Congratulations to the author with another quality article! hi

    The light infantry of Tamerlane in the campaign followed on horseback, and dismounted to conduct battle to increase the accuracy of fire. The infantryman was armed with a sword, bow and up to 30 arrows. The infantry was able to build earthen fortifications, before which massive shields were installed.
    Hmm, actually this is quite common but outdated information. Timur's army - as well as all the other steppe khans - was purely horse; he had no infantry as such, there was only dismounted cavalry (yes, there were no "mountain infantry" either, this is an invention of Armenian and Georgian chroniclers to justify their defeats).

    On June 18, a bloody battle took place on the Kondurch River. It is believed that in a fierce battle came together about 500 thousand soldiers.
    Yeah, this is just a fantasy figure. I wonder where so much grass for the horses they found? I’m generally silent about food for warriors - apparently there were special railway deliveries ... wink

    Quote: Portolan
    Timur defeated the Horde and the Horde cities so much that they could not recover. It’s strange that the Russian cities ALWAYS recovered after the defeats of Moscow, Kiev, and Ryazan,
    Not always. The same ruins of Old Ryazan are an example of this.

    Quote: parusnik
    Tamerlane’s 150-thousandth advance detachment approached Yelets, there were only 2000 defenders in the fortress, since women, old people and children were previously withdrawn from the fortress through underground passages.
    Well, not 150 thousands - the whole army of Tamerlane could have counted this size, but the advanced Tumen in 10-15 thousands - is quite real.

    One of the most terrifying pyramids, built by Timur after the fall of Isfahan, totaled seventy thousand skulls. And after the destruction of Baghdad, more than a hundred such "structures" were built. Apparently, destroying the population, Timur undermined the combat potential of the conquered lands.
    He loved that. The Mongols did not do such a thing - they threw the corpses of the dead "as is", while Timur-Leng introduced the pyramids of skulls (or "towers of skulls") without fail.

    By the way, the Turks - perhaps from him - also introduced this borrowing. The last PRESERVED tower of skulls, built by the Turks and remaining a monument to their barbarism, is the 19th century, near the city of Niš in Serbia after the massacre of the participants in the uprising in 1809 (and the last time it happened in the First World War from the heads of Christians). The photo shows what remains of the Turkish "chele-kula" - now there is a memorial chapel above it.
  • alebor
    alebor April 13 2016 12: 19
    +3
    Under Ivan the Terrible, Russia will restore a significant part of the Horde Empire, but with its center in Moscow.

    Interestingly, did Ivan the Terrible know that he was rebuilding the Horde Empire? Or did he still build his Orthodox kingdom?
    The Tretyakov Gallery houses the famous icon-painting painted after the capture of Kazan: "Blessed is the army of the Heavenly Tsar" or "Militant Church", where the Russian army, led by the Archangel Michael, triumphantly returns from burning Kazan and is blessed by the Mother of God. This icon clearly shows how those events were interpreted in Russia and, of course, it was not considered as the restoration of the "godless and wicked" Horde.
    1. Hurray
      Hurray April 15 2016 06: 34
      +1
      Of course, remember who his mother was.
  • ando_bor
    ando_bor April 13 2016 12: 37
    +1
    Recently I came across the following fact: - in Prikumye, in the area of ​​modern Budenovsk, this is in the east of Stavropol remember the invasion of Timur, - with a historical memory, not from books, but from generation to generation, - there is Russian, - the Slavic population, at least from the Khazars times was constantly present.
  • Kirill
    Kirill April 13 2016 12: 51
    +1
    I agree that a million is too much. I think 100 thousand in doubt. Supply of food, fodder, organization forgive latrines, shorter logistics. No one has yet studied these questions. Sorry. I would like the author to try to consider this issue.
    1. V.ic
      V.ic April 13 2016 19: 20
      0
      Quote: kirill
      forgive the organization of latrines

      Umno! Dig a couple of trenches in the direction of the wind rose and throw them over the "these" a little bit ... This will probably be the height of genius when building a "public" toilet in the field.
  • Riv
    Riv April 13 2016 13: 21
    +2
    The inscription was engraved on Timur's mausoleum: "Timur is the shadow of Allah on earth." A few years later, part of the inscription collapsed. It remains: "Timur is a shadow ..." - and this is somehow consonant with the word "war". Apparently then a legend appeared that the one who robbed the mausoleum would release a big war. It may be superstition, but ...

    Soviet archaeologists unearthed the grave of Tamerlane on June 21 of 1941.
    The dust was returned back in late 1942. In the same month, a turning point occurred in the Battle of Stalingrad.
    1. alicante11
      alicante11 April 13 2016 13: 46
      +2
      Soviet archaeologists unearthed the grave of Tamerlane on June 21 of 1941.


      Looks like Hitler urgently created a Barbaross plan for the day, transferred troops and attacked. Did he have a teleport? The attack on the USSR was decided at the end of the French campaign.
      1. Riv
        Riv April 13 2016 14: 11
        0
        ... and, in general, the Second World War did not begin with Poland, but a little earlier: with the invasion of Japan in China, who do not know. But it's not that.
        There is such a word: "Destiny."
    2. ver_
      ver_ April 13 2016 16: 43
      -3
      ... yeah, just does not fit with the fact that Islam arose in the 15th century ..
    3. ver_
      ver_ April 13 2016 16: 43
      0
      ... yeah, just does not fit with the fact that Islam arose in the 15th century ..
      1. Riv
        Riv April 13 2016 16: 55
        0
        In the SEVENTH century, uncle. Learn the materiel.
        1. ver_
          ver_ April 13 2016 20: 26
          0
          .. Islam "came" to the Caucasus in the 15th century ... .Advice to you - do not believe your eyes .. The split of paganism (the Slavs were pagans - there was polytheism, as in Europe - Olympus with Gods, Scandinavia - also polytheism) led to the planting worship of Christ by the Jews. Christianity and Islam appeared (the split of Orthodoxy). The Russian Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church are both Christians, not the same thing ...
          1. Riv
            Riv April 13 2016 21: 41
            0
            Islam arose in the 15th century ..

            Is the quote accurate? So "arose" or "came" ??? And what does the Caucasus have to do with it? We are talking about Tamerlane.

            Evgeny Vaganovich, log in.
    4. de_monSher
      de_monSher April 13 2016 22: 54
      +1
      Soviet archaeologists unearthed the grave of Tamerlane on June 21 of 1941.
      The dust was returned back in late 1942.


      Fairy tale ... *)) Surprisingly - the size of Timur’s army, you call a fairy tale = although this statement has much more reason to be true, and I, mind you, did not even argue with it =, but in the fairy tale invented by the late Malik Kayumovich Kayumov - believe, and even promote. Malik Kayumovich, was a golden man. It’s just that his stories about the tomb of Timur, constantly, over time, were overgrown with new details - at one time there was also an airplane with the skull of Timur, which circled Moscow when the Nazis came close, and Stalin’s call preceding this event = when Joseph Vissarionovich asked him advice on how to stop the Nazis =. I repeat - Malik Kayumovich was a golden man, he went through the war, from and to. I remember how he was sitting at the entrance to Uzbekfilm, after he retired - he had a table, laden with refreshments, tea. Running about your business, he will call you, treat you with tea, listen, if you need help - he will help, even the director of Uzbekfilm could not disobey him. But I ask you, it’s not necessary, even interestingly told the bike, to turn into some sort of historical fact ... word of ches ... *))
      1. Riv
        Riv April 14 2016 00: 24
        0
        One person once told me: "If you come back from the army darned, you will wiser." Really returned with a scar on his arm. Then he asked: "How did you guess?" - "There is nothing to guess, and so everything is visible. Be glad that your eyes are intact." But I really could have that ricochet in the eye and no one knew it except me.
        So ... Do not believe it - no one forces. Maybe it's a fairy tale, and everyone lies.
        1. de_monSher
          de_monSher April 14 2016 00: 31
          0
          "If you come back from the army darned, you will wiser."


          = Loss of scars on the forehead and shoulder = ... That's exactly what I say ... *) The problem is whether I believe it or not. From the whole story with the tomb of Timur, there is no doubt only the fact of its opening on June 22 ... *) then begin the very beautiful, connected tales, which I personally heard more than once or twice, from the person who actually participated in the autopsy crypt .. *) and each time the details, details changed, something new was added, etc. etc.

          Sorry ... *)
  • Cartalon
    Cartalon April 13 2016 13: 54
    0
    Regarding the number of troops in the 17-18 century, the Crimean khan could expose about 40 thousand people, the methods of managing did not change, I think the Golden Horde in the best of times could mobilize up to 200 thousand horsemen from the territory from Siberia to the Dniester, it was hardly likely that more than 100 thousand often gathered
    1. alicante11
      alicante11 April 13 2016 14: 44
      +1
      I think the Golden Horde in the best of times could mobilize up to 200 of thousands of horsemen from the territory from Siberia to the Dniester, it is unlikely that more than 100 of thousands often gathered


      Can you imagine the distances that the "conscript" had to cover from Siberia to the Dniester? Well, we don’t want to think, but until he gets there, everything will be over there long ago. Well, such an empire could not exist in those days. In fact, even with Russia, Siberia and the Far East were very weakly connected before the construction of the Transsib.
      A coma of management methods, one must also look at the total number of people, it seems that the population in the 17-18-th centuries was a little more than in the 13-14.
      1. Cartalon
        Cartalon April 13 2016 14: 55
        0
        The population depends on the number of livestock and the number of livestock on the amount of grass, so that in the 13-14 century the population could have been larger, but about nothing there were people living and the bright idea that it’s better not to rob a neighbor but someone with a neighbor richer not so complicated, and the rest would follow
  • Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 April 13 2016 14: 26
    0
    Quote: ando_bor
    in Prikumye, in the area of ​​modern Budyonovsk, in the east of Stavropol, Timur’s invasion is remembered with historical memory, not from books, but from generation to generation — there is a Russian there — the Slavic population has been present at least from the Khazar times.
    Well, regarding the presence of the Russian population there, the issue is extremely controversial, but many peoples of the Caucasus really mention the invasion of Timur with an unkind word.

    Quote: alebor
    and Ivan the Terrible knew that he was rebuilding the Horde Empire? Or did he still build his Orthodox kingdom?
    Yes, it’s more correct to say. that Ivan the Terrible and our other tsars CREATED A NEW ORTHODOX-RUSSIAN EMPIRE, but didn’t recreate the Horde (which, by the way, after 50 years after its creation, departed from its original religious tolerance and became a sharply Islamic state with 1290x-1300).

    Quote: Cartalon
    really hardly more than xnumx thousand often gathered
    I will say more - even this figure is catastrophically large in terms of security. Well, the horses (even if counting the 1 horse as a warrior, but it was not so) and the soldiers need something to eat, even if the problem of water supply is solved by moving along the river beds!

    Therefore, the limit of the mobilization capabilities of the army of Timur is estimated somewhere in the 120-150 thousand, but how many of them he could collect in one place is unknown. The limit of the army in his instructions for leading troops is 100.000, but how real is this figure ...

    By the way, the demographic consequences of the invasions of Timur, Central Asia and the Middle East in general were able to overcome in 150-200 years (i.e., the divisions were apparently more terrible - because the consequences of the Mongol campaigns were overcome (and not completely) after about 100 years) .
    1. Cartalon
      Cartalon April 13 2016 15: 31
      0
      According to demographics in the territory from Efrat to Syr Darya, from the end of the 10th century, someone continuously fought and robbed someone until the 19th century, so the Mongols and Timur did not say that they stand out from the general list, at least for the harm caused to the civilian population
      1. marshes
        marshes April 13 2016 15: 57
        +1
        Quote: Cartalon
        According to demographics in the territory from Efrat to Syr Darya, from the end of the 10th century, someone continuously fought and robbed someone until the 19th century, so the Mongols and Timur did not say that they stand out from the general list, at least for the harm caused to the civilian population

        So they were larger, and historians left behind them.
  • Tektor
    Tektor April 13 2016 15: 05
    0
    I want to highlight some accents. For Russia, the battle with Mamai (the Battle of Kulikovo. "The Mamay massacre".) Had an existential meaning, i.e. fateful. The question was about the continuation of the Russian clan itself, since Mamai was not Chingizid, and he had to use weapons to win back his inheritance, since in the horde nothing shone for him. And the temnik Mamai decided to completely destroy or expel the Russians from his land. But the Russian troops stood up to death for their land and defended their living space and place in subsequent history.
    When Tokhtamysh, Chingizid and the recognized heir to the throne of the Horde, came later, the Moscow prince decided to simply leave Moscow with his boyars. The Russians in this case did not want to resist the force, which had a tolerable regime of government according to established rules. Many "sovereigns" followed the tactics of surrendering the city without a fight. thereby allowing superior forces to “blow off steam” by plundering the city, but retain the army for revenge at a more opportune moment. The Genghisids did not enforce their faith, and therefore were not as dangerous as the Crusaders or Uniates. And the Russian princes preferred to negotiate with them.
    1. Cartalon
      Cartalon April 13 2016 15: 21
      0
      Listen to all this, of course, it’s interesting, only where did the temptation of Mamaia have the means to expel all Russians, he wanted to receive a full tribute, and Dmitry did not want to pay it. When Mikhail gave Tver to Mamaia a label for great reign, he refused the army, Mikhail Alexandrovich is a noble knight or Mamaia simply could not send the right amount of troops.
      1. Tektor
        Tektor April 13 2016 16: 20
        0
        The text above says exactly what I wanted to say. The idea that Mamai went to Russia not just "for tribute for 12 years" is not mine ...
    2. Hurray
      Hurray April 15 2016 06: 42
      0
      What is true is true. Mom, how Kipchak was an Indo-European, i.e. tolerance and tolerance is small.
      1. Aposlya
        Aposlya April 15 2016 07: 24
        0
        Quote: Hurray
        What is true is true. Mom like a Kipchak

        Mommy was never a Kipchak. He was from the Kiyat tribe - from the same as Genghis Khan himself ...
  • bumbarash
    bumbarash April 13 2016 16: 09
    +2
    MILLION!? yes, if such an army stands in one place for 3 days, then they will begin to die of hunger. Due to the fact that everything around will be eaten during this time.
    And the Barlas tribe still exists. They are very proud)
    1. marshes
      marshes April 13 2016 16: 18
      0
      Quote: bumbarash
      And the Barlas tribe still exists. They are very proud)

      In what area do you live? In our South Kazakhstan region, part in the Kyzylorda region.
      Interest is on Usuny and Dulaty. smile
  • Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 April 13 2016 16: 21
    +1
    Quote: Tektor
    When Tokhtamysh, a Genghisid and a recognized heir to the throne of the Horde, later came, the Moscow prince decided to simply leave Moscow with his boyars. In this case, the Russians did not want to resist the force, which had a tolerable regime of government under established rules.
    Left? Yes Tokhtamysh took into account the mistakes of Mamai, that's all. He did not gather a huge army, then walk slowly - only because it would allow Vladimir Russia to gather forces.

    Tokhtamysh gathered a relatively small but large army mobile, and made a sudden transition, delivered an unexpected blow. Dmitry Donskoy had few soldiers (2 of the year after Kulikovsky Field), and the allies simply did not have time to come to the rescue. That's all.

    Quote: Tektor
    ... Many "sovereigns" followed the tactics of surrendering the city without a fight. thereby allowing superior forces to "blow off steam" by plundering the city
    Really? Do you seriously think that St. Dmitry Donskoy planned to surrender the capital without a fight and massacre up to 25-30 thousands of its citizens? and you think that St. Sergius of Radonezh, who blessed him on Vosha and on Kulikovo Field, would approve of this?

    Quote: Tektor
    Genghisides did not instill their faith, and therefore were not as dangerous as the Crusaders or Uniates. And with them the Russian princes preferred to negotiate.
    You are very mistaken. The Golden Horde became an Islamic state since the 1280x, and began to carry out radical Islamization since the 1300x. In fact, forgetting Yasu.

    Quote: bumbarash
    MILLION!? yes, if such an army stands in one place for 3 days, they will begin to die of hunger.
    I would say that even 100 000 warriors simply cannot get together without the appropriate levels of supplies of food and water.
  • Cartalon
    Cartalon April 13 2016 16: 32
    0
    For a long time I tried to figure out where the hundred-thousand-strong horse armies were reliably mentioned and recalled the war of Emperor Wu-di with the Huns, there such operations were performed a couple of times, and in general if the steppe troops gathered enough troops for operations in China and not only raids but conquests, then they could collect tens of thousands of horsemen together.
    1. marshes
      marshes April 13 2016 16: 37
      +1
      Quote: Cartalon
      For a long time I tried to figure out where the hundred-thousand-strong horse armies were reliably mentioned and recalled the war of Emperor Wu-di with the Huns, there such operations were performed a couple of times, and in general if the steppe troops gathered enough troops for operations in China and not only raids but conquests, then they could collect tens of thousands of horsemen together.

      Well, now they do not "love" the "karves" on the "cormorants" if anything, now the call, the "gut" will tighten. laughing
      So according to the hun, Magyars, there is a genus among the Kazakhs Mazhar, so that in genetics 98% of the DNA is common. smile
  • Chisayna
    Chisayna April 13 2016 17: 10
    0
    I have a question for ver. Tell ver, who built Por-Bajin?
    1. ver_
      ver_ April 13 2016 18: 55
      0
      ... I’m not personally familiar .. he built his country house himself ..
    2. ver_
      ver_ April 13 2016 18: 55
      0
      ... I’m not personally familiar .. he built his country house himself ..
  • uwzek
    uwzek April 13 2016 18: 07
    +4
    The article is long, I read it to the end with pleasure. Now about the claims ...
    First of all, to its beginning. The author, announcing a desire to show the Timur’s advantages over all others (even before the Kwakins), for a long and tedious describes the composition of Tamerlane’s army (tens, hundreds, thousands of Tumens, wagons, weapons of personnel, division of the army into infantry and cavalry (both light and not quite ), archers mounted and on foot). Of course, the author did not invent this himself, he relied on any sources. But how did Timur’s army differ in organization from any other modern army? I’m sharp again, but they differed significantly in the organization of the army of Rome and the Anglo-Saxons that joined it (there is the duodecimal number system - the units were distributed somewhat differently) ...
    As Timur’s great achievement, the author emphasizes the payment of the army’s salary, naively believing that all other soldiers of the world (at least until Timur’s appearance in history) fought for free, eating honestly looted.
    The author’s passages about Timurov’s movements delight, especially the stories about the movement of thousands of horsemen in a coherent square of at least one hundred and one hundred meters across the territories of states (near the enemy), where all the free areas were cultivated and the roads were two asses wide. Moreover, the free construction of this square allows you to freely turn only on four sides, and not anywhere. When the enemy attacks from a complex rumba, and taking into account the local terrain, a frontal turn towards an ambush results in a very complex maneuver by a team of thousands of snouts.
    Further, the author recalls the military science of Timur, trying to describe his strategic work. For some reason, he dwells on his (strategic work) first chapter (a battle with the number of fighters up to twelve (! Duodecimal system) thousand). The strategist described by the author divides the fighters into fourteen divisions, apparently immediately breaking the great division of the army into tens, hundreds, etc., in one fell swoop destroying the interest of former unit commanders in the effectiveness of the actions of previously subordinate fighters in terms of their own revenues ...
    The author performed a good compilation of the works of ancient historians, not at all trying to critically interpret them. Similar can be written about any successful conqueror of troubled times. The same words, changing only the names of the heroes.
    It was interesting to read about the rest, but given the beginning ... Ordinary fantasy, with a historical foundation.
    1. ver_
      ver_ April 21 2016 15: 41
      +1
      ... on everything that is braided in this article to make us army .. and remember - Ancient Ukrainians did all this ..
  • Jamuqa
    Jamuqa April 22 2016 09: 14
    0
    Kunduzcha-what kind of city is this?