Military Review

GAZ-67B - one of the symbols of the Great Patriotic

54
The Soviet all-wheel drive passenger car with an open body GAZ-67 did not become the most massive military vehicle of World War II, but is rightfully considered one of its brightest symbols. It is also important that GAZ-67 became one of the first domestic “jeeps”, although the concept of an all-wheel drive passenger car in the USSR was managed to work out before the war. In all, before the 1953, 92 843 vehicles of this type were assembled in the Soviet Union, but only 4851 of them fell during the war years.


In the Red Army, these cars were affectionately called "goat", "pygmy", "flea warrior" or "Ivan-Willis" and HBV (I want to be "Willis"). During the war years, the Soviet jeep was actively used as a staff and reconnaissance vehicle. In addition, GAZ-67B could be used to transport infantry, evacuate wounded from the battlefield, and also as an artillery tractor for carrying light weapons and mortars. According to its chassis, this SUV was unified with the BA-64 armored car, which was produced in the years of the Great Patriotic War.

Pre-war development

Just a few years before the appearance of the GAZ-67 SUV in the USSR, there already existed vehicles that would have a sufficiently large influence on its design and creation. In the summer of 1936, the first prototypes of the GAZ-М1 (emki) were assembled at the Gorky Automobile Plant. The all-wheel drive version of this car, designed under the guidance of designer V. A. Grachev, was designated as GAZ-61-40. The car was an open version of the emki (GAZ-11-40), which, instead of a three-speed gearbox, received a four-speed gearbox. From the transfer case located behind it to the front and rear drive axles were cardan shafts. In this case, the drive to the front axle could be turned off.

GAZ-61-40


A rather difficult task was to design the front drive axle for a new car. Since its wheels were controllable, they had to be connected to the axles with the help of universal joints, and such hinges, which at large angles of rotation of the wheels (35-40 degrees) would not create harmful jerks and vibrations. The most optimal solution for a passenger car with a dependent wheel suspension was a ball joint of equal angular velocity, known as the “Rcep” type hinge. Nowadays, it is widely used in front driving axles of all-terrain vehicles, but in those years it was considered a novelty.

The GAZ-61-40 was notable for very good road traffic on dirt roads and rough terrain, it moved perfectly along wetlands, snow-covered and sandy areas, and could climb climbing slopes up to 43 °. The advantages of the car were obvious, so in 1941, the Gorky Automobile Plant began the mass production of this car. True, the serial models, which were assigned the GAZ-61 index, were not mounted on an open body, but a closed-type “sedan” - exactly the same as it was on the six-cylinder emka GAZ-11-73. The engines of these two cars were identical. At the very beginning of the Great Patriotic War, well-known Soviet generals used the all-wheel drive passenger cars GAZ-61 - G. K. Zhukov, I. S. Konev, K. Ye. Voroshilov and others.

GAZ-61


With the beginning of the Great Patriotic War, the release of "emok", and, therefore, the body for them at GAZ had to stop. In the first months of the war, pick-ups GAZ-61-415, with a canvas cabin, went to the front. They were used as connected and command vehicles, as well as for towing light anti-tank guns. The need for cars of this type at the front was really great, so in the summer of 1941, V. Grachev, taking into account the wartime requirements, in a very short time - literally 1,5-2 of the month - creates an easy-to-manufacture SUV GAZ-64. Actually, only the front suspension, the body and the radiator were entirely new in this car, otherwise it was completed from assemblies and parts of the old cars manufactured under the GAZ brand.

Birth of a legend

The need to create a lightweight and most passable vehicle was manifested in the years of the Soviet-Finnish war 1939-1940. This became especially apparent during the conduct of hostilities in the winter off-road conditions. Mainly, the car had to meet the interests of servicing the middle command personnel of the Red Army.

A similar need in those years experienced the military in other countries. In general, the concept of a light, simple, all-wheel drive passenger car, attributed to the Americans. True, the all-wheel drive scheme (albeit with overseas features) by the end of the 1930-s was already well-developed and on GAZ - in cars. And about direct copying in Gorky there could be no question. The old-timers of the enterprise recalled that the American “Bantam”, which was the ideological ancestor of the famous “Willis”, they saw only in magazine photographs. At the same time, the leadership of the industry about the American car went only to the detriment of the first version of the Gorky jeep. They said that it was precisely the People's Commissar of Medium Machine Building (in those years the automobile industry was subordinate to him) that he insisted on a narrow, like the American car, track, although in the presence of GAZ there were standard, wider bridges.



The task to develop a light army vehicle was issued by the Red Army Main Armored Directorate at the end of winter 1941, and already on March 25, 1941, the GAZ-Р1 (Р-scout) vehicle was put to the test. In August of the same year, when parts of the Red Army fought with the Wehrmacht already near Smolensk, in Gorky they began mass production of an all-wheel drive car, designated GAZ-64. The release of the SUV, however, was just miserable - in the 1,5 of the year less than 700 of similar cars were assembled at GAZ. Just before the beginning of the Second World War, many countries, including the United States, Germany, Great Britain and Italy, had already begun to produce such machines. Later, by name, or rather nickname, one of the most common models of this type - Ford GP (built according to Willis factory drawings), such cars would be called “jeeps”. In this aspect, GAZ-64, the release of which was launched in the autumn of 1941, became the first Soviet jeep.

GAZ-64 was improved at the end of 1942 of the year: the track of both driving axles was expanded to 1466 mm, with wings instead of semicircular cuts above the wheels, as the track became larger and the width of the body remained unchanged. This innovation was explained quite simply - that the "jeep", that GAZ-64, which had a narrow (1250 mm) gauge, when driving on slopes and turns, had a tendency to turn over. Expansion of the car’s track helped eliminate this drawback. The improved car received a new GAZ-67 index, and after further upgrading in 1944, the car began to be called GAZ-67B. In this latest version of the SUV and then received widespread in our country. The car was distinguished by a rather large ground clearance (227 mm), favorable weight distribution along the axes, wide tires with developed lugs, small body overhangs front and rear. Together, all these features significantly increased the already good GAZ-67B permeability, added traction qualities to the car. The car could safely tow a trailer weighing 800-1000 kilograms, confidently moved along the broken front roads without overheating the engine (there was a radiator with six rows of cooling tubes instead of three, as it was on the famous lorry), for a long time it could move at a walking speed Accelerating on a flat good road to 90 km / h. With a relatively heavy 76,2-mm ZIS-3 cannon on the trailer, the car worked with overload, but even then its speed on the highway was more than 58 km / h.



GAZ-67B was a military vehicle, which was created for the war and in the harsh conditions of wartime. When developing, Soviet designers did not particularly think about the comfort of the machine, putting at the center of the simplicity of the design and a high level of reliability. The driver, in addition to sufficiently tight pedals, which were calculated for the soldiers' boots, was offered only a small shield, on which the minimum necessary set of instruments was located. Of the so-called luxury goods, which today would be called additional options, the Soviet jeep could boast only a socket for connecting a special lamp, as well as two tanks for fuel. One tank was located directly under the windshield of the car, and the second under the driver's seat. And all this with a relatively small overall dimensions of the car, in which there were places for four people.

Like most of the products that were produced at that time by the Gorky Automobile Plant, the all-wheel drive GAZ-67B was completed with an ordinary 4-cylinder carburetor engine. Engine size was 3,3 liters, he was able to develop power in 50-54 horsepower. At the same time, the engine of the Soviet jeep, the spare parts of which were shared with its relative GAZ-MM, was favorably distinguished by high draft and low-speed performance. These qualities were his main advantages, while the torque was equal to 180 Nm, it was possible to achieve it only at 1400 rpm. The average fuel consumption of the car was about 15 l / 100 km, while during acceleration to 70 km / h or more, fuel consumption increased by about 25%.



On the car GAZ-67B installed all-wheel drive transmission with the additional ability to connect the front axle. Traction characteristics of the jeep were such that both the gearbox and the clutch were taken by the engineers from the GAZ-MM, almost without any additional changes. The lack of running equipment of this army jeep was the lack of a center differential, for this reason, all-wheel drive on the car was used only when driving through mud or overcoming snow-covered areas. It should be noted that the movement in the liquid dirt was not a problem for GAZ-67B, even when the wheels of the car were completely hidden in a rut.

The strength and weakness of this SUV was the maximum unification with other serial GAZ cars, while the American Willys were designed from scratch. At the same time, the Soviet jeep was designed and prepared for mass production in an incredibly short time. The car was as simple as the all-wheel-drive design could have been, and was suitable for manual repair even by low-skilled mechanics. A power plant with a degree of compression 4,6 was able, unlike the American engines, to eat even the fuel that it was a shame to call gasoline. The famous “Willis-MB” compression ratio, by the way, was 6,48. The fact that the Soviet jeep was quietly working on non-deficient grades of gasoline and oil was a significant advantage of GAZ-67 over its overseas competitor. The 64 and even 60 octane fuel was enough for him, while the jeep could only drive high-quality gasoline, the octane number of which was no lower than 70.



The four-spoke steering wheel with a bent wooden rim with a diameter of 67 mm became its business card of the GAZ-385, it was forced to be used in production just a day after the factory - a supplier of carbolite parts failed (it was burned during the bombing) . Despite its archaic and indifferent appearance, this steering wheel caught on and even fell in love with Soviet drivers for the opportunity to work without gloves, especially when it was freezing. They did not even hurry to change it on occasion to a plastic steering wheel. And the other, already three-spoke plastic steering wheel with a diameter of 425 mm, which was specially created for the GAZ-67B, turned out to be such a good solution, which made everyone, which became the standard for post-war trucks of the Gorky Automobile Plant for many years.

Upgraded in the 1944 year, the car received the GAZ-67B index, the car received a transmission and front axle reinforced on a number of nodes. Radial thrust ball bearing pivot pivot bearings of the front axle, which were inherited from the GAZ-61, differed in their very low service life (5-8 thousands of kilometers). In November, 1944 of the year was replaced with white-type plain bearings, which were a more durable, maintainable, and non-fearful solution. In addition, these bearings were not so sensitive to contamination due to the unreliability of the sealing of the spheres of the ball bearings. After the replacement, there were no complaints about the operation of this unit. Such a technical solution of pivot bearings was so successful that it was subsequently used for a long time on other lightweight all-terrain vehicles of the Gorky Automobile Plant: GAZ-69, GAZ-62, GAZ-M72 and GAZ-M73. Also, the 23 of October 1944 of the year, instead of the still Emov's IM-91, was supplied with a more advanced P-15 distributor, which was maximally unified with the P-12 distributor of the 6-cylinder engine GAZ-11. Connected with spark plugs using insulated high-voltage wires (instead of copper plates), the new distributor maintained its stable adjustment, as well as the best dust and moisture resistance of electrical connections, with the possibility of shielding them from radio interference.



A truly massive GAZ-67B was already in the postwar years. Gaziki actively worked in cities and collective farms throughout the country, served geologists, continued to serve in the army and police. At the same time, they were driven by the same courageous and harsh drivers as in the war years, squinting from the dust in the summer months, and in the winter period, home-made kiosks, which were attached over the bodies, were supposed to save them from the severe Russian frosts. Gradually, cars were written off and sold to private owners. In the capable hands of Soviet chauffeurs and, of course, with the installation of later parts and assemblies, these cars served them faithfully for decades.

Technical characteristics of GAZ-67B:
Overall dimensions: mm 3350х1685х1700 mm (with awning).
Wheelbase - 2100 mm.
Ground clearance - 227 mm (with tires 6,50 - 16).
The smallest turning radius is 6,5 m (along the front outer wheel track).
Curb weight - 1320 kg, full - 1720 kg.
Load capacity - 400 kg or 4 person + 100 kg.
The power plant - GAZ-64-6004 power 54 HP
Fuel consumption - 15 l / 100 km
The maximum speed is 90 km / h.
Power reserve - 465 km.

Information sources:
http://otvaga2004.ru/kaleydoskop/kaleydoskop-wheel/dlya-voennogo-bezdorozhya
http://www.zr.ru/content/articles/438127-gaz-67b_avtomobil_velikoj_otechestvennoj
http://modeli-gaz.ru/gaz/gaz-67.htm
http://fb.ru/article/216125/gaz--b-foto-razmeryi-zapchasti
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  1. parusnik
    parusnik April 12 2016 07: 15
    +6
    A good car ... Thanks ...
    1. Vend
      Vend April 12 2016 09: 36
      0
      Quote: parusnik
      A good car ... Thanks ...

      Even now you can buy from 60 000, on the go.
      1. Stormtrooper
        Stormtrooper April 12 2016 09: 39
        0
        I see them every day on the roads in Krasnoyarsk smile

        PS Well, maybe not every day, but often winked
      2. Punikki
        Punikki April 12 2016 12: 27
        -2
        Quote: Wend
        Even now you can buy from 60 000, on the go.

        On the run?!
        Yes, only the life of rubber products is 10-20 years, then everything is under replacement.
        Well, spare parts for this miracle all the more not to be found!
        Generally speaking, you are far from reality!
        1. Amurets
          Amurets April 12 2016 13: 59
          +1
          Quote: Punikki
          Well, spare parts for this miracle all the more not to be found!

          If you want, everything can be done. The last time I helped a friend sort out this car in the mid-90s. It was bought by some collector, I don’t know where he was from, I didn’t see him. I saw alterations for 69th units several times but it’s not that car anymore in terms of cross-country ability and traction. And rubber machines can always be picked up or fitted.
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 April 12 2016 16: 26
            +2
            Quote: Amurets
            If you want, everything can be done. The last time I helped a friend sort out this car in the middle of the 90's. It was bought by some collector, I don’t know

            I want to ask. Are there rubber pads?
            1. Amurets
              Amurets April 12 2016 23: 13
              0
              Quote: Mordvin 3

              I want to ask. Are there rubber pads?

              Where did they get it? Ferrodo. There is a soft Ferrodo. It seems from the Gas-69 is suitable. But the brakes are mechanical, tormented with adjustment.
              1. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 April 13 2016 04: 43
                +2
                I was repairing a lorry. There were rubber pads.
                1. Amurets
                  Amurets April 13 2016 05: 24
                  0
                  Quote: Mordvin 3
                  I was repairing a lorry. There were rubber pads.

                  There were rubber pads with emery, but they quickly ate the brake drums. Here I even found a link to those brakes.
                  http://lib.algid.net/pdd/o7g36p02.php
  2. Million
    Million April 12 2016 07: 49
    +4
    Cool device! Unpretentious, reliable, passable, cheap.
    1. avt
      avt April 12 2016 08: 43
      +4
      Quote: Million
      Cool device! Unpretentious, reliable, passable, cheap.

      Not that word ! According to the criterion "cost-effectiveness" just a standard of engineering work!
      1. vvp2
        vvp2 April 12 2016 10: 41
        -3
        Quote: avt
        According to the criterion "cost-effectiveness" just a standard of engineering work!

        No, according to this criterion, the standard is brick.
        One of his nicknames - HBV (I want to be "Willis") eloquently speaks about the real qualities of this car.
        This product has only a few advantages:
        1. The technological base of the USSR allowed him to produce.
        2. The design, taking into account the quality of products in the USSR (components), made it possible to repair it quite simply and repeatedly.
        3. He could move on that substance which in the USSR was called gasoline.
        Therefore, in general, this product was rather miserable. But for the USSR just right.
        1. Verdun
          Verdun April 12 2016 11: 01
          +7
          By the way, Guderian - a man, in general, not stupid, believed that it was not worth adopting the expensive T-VI "Panther" tank, giving priority to modernizing the relatively inexpensive and well-mastered T-IV tank. In conditions of large-scale wars, it is the cost of equipment that is very important. Otherwise, her losses may be irreparable.
          1. Bruss
            Bruss April 12 2016 11: 27
            +3
            Panther is a T-V
            1. Verdun
              Verdun April 12 2016 11: 36
              0
              Your truth! I put the extra wand.
          2. vvp2
            vvp2 April 12 2016 12: 01
            -11%
            Quote: Verdun
            By the way, Guderian - a man, in general, not stupid, believed that it was not worth adopting the expensive T-VI "Panther" tank

            For the end, he wrote in his post-war books. And such books, this is a specific genre of science fiction. And they should not be taken seriously.
            What was really there we do not know. But we know what it was, released Panther, and a little four.
            I absolutely do not understand Pantera’s Internet critics. A wonderful tank that saved the Germans a huge number of tanker lives. You can add, unfortunately. And in small quantities a four was produced, in the form of a small tank snive. Everything is correct and logical. And everything was wrong and illogical was just the other belligerent.
            Quote: Verdun
            In the context of large-scale wars, the cost of equipment is very important. Otherwise, her losses may be irreparable.

            Not the cost price in its pure form, but the relative cost price. Those. cost attributed to the number of battles conducted. For this indicator, the same Panther was significantly cheaper than the T-34.
            In general, the USSR fought very wastefully and very expensively. In all aspects, both material and in terms of human resources. And this was primarily due to the extremely low level of Soviet equipment and weapons. Therefore, the lack of quality had to be compensated for by quantity. And this is a very expensive and very ineffective way to solve the problem. Actually, the path to a dead end.
            If the allies in the summer of 1943. did not open the Second Front in Europe, the USSR would most likely not have pulled out the war. Even taking into account lend-lease deliveries. First of all, there would not be enough mob resources (people), problems with this in the USSR began in the fall of 1943. Therefore, the Anglo-Saxons quite correctly calculated when "it is still early" and when "just right". I must admit, they are not stupid. They are very clever, and they pay attention to their benefits. It is necessary to learn from them. And not rassusolit about supposedly "fraternal peoples" and other snotty nonsense.
            1. pimen
              pimen April 12 2016 12: 24
              +4
              Quote: vvp2
              Not the cost price in its pure form, but the relative cost price. Those. cost attributed to the number of battles conducted. For this indicator, the same Panther was significantly cheaper than the T-34.

              too, a rather speculative thesis.
              Beginning in 1943, the panther mainly fought as a defense tank (where it was definitely better than the T-34/85), and the T-34/85 as a breakthrough tank; and, not that convulsive, from the time of the Red Army 1941, but quite a competent defense of equal opponents in 1943. However, change the situation to the opposite - and, obviously, the T-34 would not be so bad in defense, and the panther is not so good in the offensive
              1. vvp2
                vvp2 April 12 2016 13: 02
                -7
                Quote: pimen
                However, change the situation to the opposite - and, obviously, the T-34 would not be so bad in defense, and the panther is not so good in the offensive

                And grandmother can be attached ... a beard. And then she will become a grandfather. Let's stick to facts, not fantasies.
                T-34/85 in 1944 was hardly more successful than the T-34/76 in 1941. Yes, compared with the T-34/76 mod. 1941, T-34/85 arr. 1944 this is a noticeable leap forward.
                But PzKpfw V “Panther” compared to Pz.KpfW.IV Ausf.F1, this is not a leap forward, it is just different. Another level of technology. And so for many positions, take at least artillery.
                Therefore, I suppose that without the Second Front the Germans would have crushed the USSR precisely by technology. Gradually knocking out manpower, the lack of which in the Red Army was already felt since the autumn of 1943 (see above).
                As for the offensive capabilities of the PzKpfw V Panther, how can you compare the 45 mm armor of the T-34 and the 80 mm armor of the Panther? There can’t even be any comparison between them, especially considering the Panther’s MUCH more armor-piercing cannon. S-53 (T-34/85), of course, it did not go in any comparison with the infamous F-34 (T-34/76). But from KwK40 (stood on PzKpfw IV), it was not much different.
                1. pimen
                  pimen April 12 2016 13: 16
                  +4
                  Quote: vvp2
                  Therefore, I suppose that without the Second Front the Germans would have crushed the USSR precisely by technology. Gradually knocking out manpower, the lack of which in the Red Army was already felt since the autumn of 1943 (see above).

                  finished off, would've finished off 6000 panthers 26000 T-34/85 in defense
                  1. vvp2
                    vvp2 April 12 2016 14: 07
                    -5
                    Quote: pimen
                    would have crushed 6000 panthers 26000 T-34/85 in defense

                    Do not fantasize. In 1944 only a little more than 10 thousand T-34/85 tanks of all modifications were made (and almost 6 thousand T-34/85 were made until May 1945). A Panther for the 1943-44 was made 5,5 thousand units. And more than 6 thousand Pz.KpfW.IV Ausf.G and Ausf.H with 80 mm frontal armor and a L / 48 gun. And this is all against the background of a lack of mobresource in the USSR (of people, see above). So, one on one would be almost completely guaranteed. And they would have started right from Kursk in 1943, because part of the troops from there, already during the operation, was redirected to Italy. Why the German offensive there turned out to be stripped down.
                    Until the spring of 1944. T-34/85 tanks at the front can be said that there were none. Meanwhile, their S-53 (and D-5T) tank guns were almost the only real anti-tank weapons (apart from a small number of ZIS-2 model 1943). Three-inch, and at the very beginning of the Second World War it was not so effective. And by 1943. became completely slop. They fought it only because there was nothing more to fight. Well, what to do, that was the real technological level of the USSR (the level of the beginning of the 20th century) after all these pouty (actually failed) pre-war industrializations. Therefore, in reality, the USSR industrialized in 2 stages:
                    1. In 1943-44. for gold and on credit, equipment was purchased in the USA on these terms, incl. for the production of ZIS-2 mod. 1943, S-53 and T-34/85. In the USSR, these debts were called "Lend-Lease debts", which was absolutely untrue, since Lend-Lease supplies were free.
                    2. In 1945 and further on captured equipment and technologies.
                    Over the years, and on the resources received, the USSR was able to make a sufficiently large technological leap forward, which allowed it to hold out until 1974. And there, oil prices went up to sky-high heights. And everything was as if even almost not bad. But then prices collapsed. And the USSR died of starvation.
                    1. Verdun
                      Verdun April 12 2016 14: 35
                      +2
                      Quote: vvp2
                      Meanwhile, their S-53 (and D-5T) tank guns were almost the only real anti-tank weapons (apart from a small amount of ZIS-2 model 1943)

                      In 1943, an 57 mm caliber anti-tank gun was adopted. At the same time, it was developed back in 1940, but they did not manage to establish production. Departure speed of the projectile is 1270 m / s. At a range of 1000 meters, a projectile pierced 105 mm armor at a 90-degree angle of encounter. It was mass produced. It was in service with battalions and anti-tank brigades. German anti-tank guns of that period did not reach this level. And the Allies did not have anything like that at all.
                      As for the mobilization resource, the German Volkssturm is clearly from its overabundance.
                      1. vvp2
                        vvp2 April 12 2016 15: 35
                        0
                        Quote: Verdun
                        At the same time, it was developed back in 1940,

                        In 1941 But still, these are slightly different guns.
                        Quote: Verdun
                        but they did not manage to establish production.

                        Failed. There was no where to produce. This was an example of Soviet valuantarism in the field of artillery. It was possible to do, but only in pilot production. But serially, it’s impossible. She went into the series only in 1943, after purchasing equipment for its production in the United States. But everything was not easy early, so they did not do it very much.
                        Quote: Verdun
                        At a range of 1000 meters, a projectile pierced 105 mm armor at a 90-degree angle of encounter.

                        Do not fantasize, farther than 500 m shooting under-caliber was ineffective, and often forbidden. Those. it was a weapon of completely desperate soldiers. And if you want to compare something, compare penetration with armor-piercing shells. And here it was still possible to set it against Pz.KpfW.IV, but against Pz.KpfW.V, it was very bad.
                        Quote: Verdun
                        It was mass produced.

                        In 1943-44, a little less than 4 thousand were made. The Germans made 5,5 Panthers during the same period. And more than 6 thousand Pz.KpfW.IV Ausf.G and Ausf.H with 80 mm frontal armor. Therefore, they did very little ZIS-2.
                        Quote: Verdun
                        German anti-tank guns of that period did not reach this level.

                        What nonsense. ZIS-2, PaK42 was not even suitable for soles. And the British 17 Pounder. Those. I’m just not lying nearby. Those. not comparable values ​​at all. And the old PaK40, although inferior to the ZIS-2, but not very much.
                        The problem of the ZIS-2 was that it was a cannon of an outdated concept. And it was very good at a range of up to 500 m. But in 1943. the effective range of anti-tank combat shifted to 1000 m. But here the ZIS-2 was not very strong.
                        You also forget that German guns had to hit 45 mm of armor (with their caliber, the slope of the T-34 sheet did not matter to them). And ZIS-2 had to hit from 80 mm of armor from Pz.KpfW.IV Ausf.G and Ausf.H to about 120 mm (taking into account the inclination and partial normalization of the projectile) at Pz.KpfW.V. Have you noticed any difference in these values?
                        Quote: Verdun
                        And the Allies did not have anything like that at all.

                        Those. have you decided to finally make everyone laugh? Contrary to the Internet tales, the Allies were armed NOT WORSE than the Germans. This also applies to the British 76,2 mm HV cannons (tank, if you are not aware) and 17 Pounder. This also applies to the American M1 (76,2 mm) and M3 (90 mm) guns. Rumors of "bad allied artillery" are greatly exaggerated by Sovagitprop.
                        Quote: Verdun
                        then German Volkssturm is clearly from its overabundance.

                        Those. the fact that since the beginning of autumn 1943 Germany alone fought on 2 fronts before you have not yet reached. Let's wait.
                      2. Verdun
                        Verdun April 12 2016 16: 30
                        0
                        Quote: vvp2
                        What nonsense. ZIS-2, PaK42 was not even suitable for soles. And the British 17 Pounder.

                        With an initial projectile speed of 950 m / s for the English gun and 925 for the German, the declared armor-piercing ability looks very doubtful. And of a different class these are guns. You do not compare the English and German guns with the 1944 mm gun that appeared in 100? And the fact that until the beginning of the fall of 1943 the USSR fought alone against the economic power of almost all of Europe does not bother you either.
                      3. The comment was deleted.
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                      5. vvp2
                        vvp2 April 12 2016 16: 45
                        0
                        Quote: Verdun
                        With an initial projectile speed of 950 m / s for the English gun and 925 for the German, the declared armor-piercing ability looks very doubtful.

                        Oi-Ts. Are you a major specialist in external ballistics? What made you so embarrassed, if not secret?
                        Quote: Verdun
                        And the fact that until the beginning of the fall of 1943 the USSR fought alone against the economic power of almost all of Europe does not bother you either.

                        For starters, you exaggerate. The USSR, and with it even more than half the world, in addition, led by Britain and the USA, fought against the Axis countries. A very small part of Europe, here is a map showing the countries that declared war on the USSR (marked with a cross).
                        If you also want to nod at occupied France (at first only 1/3), Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Norway, Poland, Czech Republic, Yugoslavia and Greece, then nod. And on LaSSR, LySSR, ESSR, BSSR, Ukrainian SSR, MSSR and part of the RSFSR, too. And you can also nod at the allied Axis countries Bulgaria and Japan. But even in this case, "all of Europe" will not work out. Just because Britain was in those years, it was in those years about a little less than half of Europe.
                      6. Verdun
                        Verdun April 12 2016 16: 57
                        -1
                        Britannia? A little less than half of Europe? You should at least look at your card ....
                      7. vvp2
                        vvp2 April 12 2016 17: 03
                        -3
                        Quote: Verdun
                        Britannia? A little less than half of Europe? You should at least look at your card ....

                        Size matters only in the fragile minds of scoops. In fact, Britain in those years in Europe in terms of the economy was the dominant value. "Terrible and extremely powerful Germany" did not even lie next to it. And with the population of the Britons, too, everything was in order.
                        As a rule, they themselves did not fight. Usually someone was hired for this. For public protection. From this and the population they had a lot.
                      8. Verdun
                        Verdun April 12 2016 17: 12
                        0
                        At the same time, even Sir Winston Churchill admitted that if German troops crossed the canal, Britain would not last even a few days. Apparently he also had a weak mind scoop?
                      9. vvp2
                        vvp2 April 12 2016 17: 25
                        0
                        Quote: Verdun
                        if

                        He was joking so much. Because Germany had NO OPPORTUNITY for this. Especially considering the fact that the air battle for Britain in the fall of 1940. the Germans lost. Therefore, we decided to start with those who are weaker. Those. THE USSR. It must be clearly understood, 22.06.41g. this is a direct consequence of this lost in the fall of 1940. war in the air.
                        And Britain as a result had the opportunity to send its troops to the North. Africa and more, wherever she can think of.
                      10. Verdun
                        Verdun April 12 2016 18: 02
                        +2
                        Where Rommel imposed on the sons of Misty Albion on the first number. Until the Führer decided that Rommel was fighting so brilliantly that he did not need aviation. After which she was taken away and transferred to Europe.
                      11. vvp2
                        vvp2 April 12 2016 18: 15
                        0
                        Quote: Verdun
                        Where Rommel imposed on the sons of Misty Albion on the first number.

                        Of course. So he told them that it all ended with his requests for evacuation. And after these requests were rejected by Hitler, Italian and German troops in North. Africa capitulated. The forces were wasted on all sorts of adventurous "offensive operations."
                        Rommel himself, on time and very "courageously", took his feet from there on the plane. Officially it was called "flew to persuade Hitler." But in fact, Hitler would not have endured a second, and even so kind, field marshal in captivity. Therefore, Rommel was treated differently from Paulus. If Paulus was offered to shoot himself, Rommel was ordered to make legs. What he did with pleasure and courage.
                        This is how this story really looks. And then the line of what garbage is read on the Internet, and then pose as a parrot Ass.
                        Quote: Verdun
                        that Rommel is fighting so brilliantly that he doesn’t need aviation. After which she was taken away and transferred to Europe

                        Oh yeah. This game called "all the blame for the corporal" is familiar to me. It is very common among the retired goat of drummers, i.e. beaten German generals.
                      12. Verdun
                        Verdun April 12 2016 18: 20
                        -2
                        Firstly, you should not go over to insults.
                        And secondly, admit, only truthful information is available to you on the Internet? As for aviation - what do you want to say that von Rommel himself refused it?
                      13. vvp2
                        vvp2 April 12 2016 19: 15
                        0
                        Quote: Verdun
                        As for aviation - what do you want to say that von Rommel himself refused it?

                        I want to say that there would be no aviation, there would be masturbation. If it weren't there, there would be some other "good reason". A blown bubble, this Rommel. And he never commanded anything more than the GERMAN army corps. Those. the maximum is a German lieutenant general. True, he commanded the mixed forces in the North. Africa in number with the army. Mostly Italian. In this case, he can be considered an Italian Colonel General. And given the separation of the army, then the Field Marshal. But Italian, not German.
                      14. Verdun
                        Verdun April 12 2016 19: 23
                        -1
                        "We have before us a very experienced and brave adversary and, I must admit, despite this devastating war, - a great commander" - Winston Churchill, speech in the House of Commons. Or was he joking again to amuse the members of the House?
                      15. vvp2
                        vvp2 April 12 2016 19: 37
                        +1
                        Quote: Verdun
                        "We have before us a very experienced and brave adversary and, I must admit, despite this devastating war, - a great commander" - Winston Churchill, speech in the House of Commons. Or was he joking again to amuse the members of the House?

                        Churchill is a diplomat. Therefore, he said what needed to be said. Or did you want him to come out and say something like: "We were lucky. The enemy put up a crazy idiot against us. But trouble happened, our commander turned out to be very bad. Everything worked out when we removed him. The new commander pretty quickly smashed the German idiot. and dust, and those defeats and sacrifices that occurred under the old commander, so spit on them with saliva. "
                        Did you want to hear this from Churchill? So you would never have heard from him. And if they had heard (as a free assumption), they would have torn him right there, in the House of Commons. Parliamentarians. In the literal sense of the word.
                      16. Verdun
                        Verdun April 12 2016 19: 51
                        -1
                        Quote: vvp2
                        But trouble happened, our commander was very bad

                        You already decide. That you have done well with the British, then somehow not very ...
                      17. vvp2
                        vvp2 April 12 2016 20: 02
                        +1
                        Quote: Verdun
                        That you have done well with the British, then somehow not very ..

                        Quote: Verdun
                        You really decide.

                        What to decide? All that I wanted to write to you, I wrote to you. If you do not understand, read it again.
                      18. Verdun
                        Verdun April 12 2016 20: 09
                        +2
                        Okay. Summarize. From your words, it follows that the stupid Soviet army defeated the even more stupid German army with the help of wonderful equipment received from the allies under Lend-Lease. And how it all started well (this is me about the article on the material of which our dispute flared up) - "GAZ-67B is one of the symbols of the Great Patriotic War."
                      19. vvp2
                        vvp2 April 12 2016 20: 16
                        +1
                        Quote: Verdun
                        Summarize. From your words it follows that the stupid Soviet army defeated an even more stupid German, with the help of wonderful equipment received from the Lend-Lease allies?

                        I have a feeling that you mixed me up with someone. Are you simultaneously conducting correspondence on several forums? Confused windows, where to insert messages?
                      20. Verdun
                        Verdun April 12 2016 20: 23
                        0
                        And what else can be drawn from the allegations that Rommel - mediocrity, the T-34 tank and the ZiS-2 gun - are bad, and Churchill is a big fan of joking in parliament? Or do you think that I confused something with the theme of Napoleon or Tu-22m?
                      21. vvp2
                        vvp2 April 12 2016 20: 46
                        0
                        Quote: Verdun
                        And what other conclusion can be drawn from the allegations that Rommel - mediocrity, the T-34 tank and the ZiS-2 gun - are bad, and Churchill is a big fan of joking in parliament?

                        With your level of fantasy, you can easily come to the conclusion that a meteorite will fall on the city of Kozlodoev tomorrow. Why will its inhabitants begin mass flatulence. Why gases accumulate and explode from a random match. And then Krantov city Krantov. Directly with all the inhabitants.
                      22. Verdun
                        Verdun April 12 2016 20: 56
                        -1
                        You know what? Let's round off this argument. He had already lost his sharpness, if any. I — for the most part — give you numbers and quotes, and you, for the most part, give me complete sophistry. Boring, not interesting. Actually, at the beginning I meant only that any weapons and equipment should cost a reasonable price. With this you hopefully agree? Or was the USSR industry overloaded with military orders instead of the GAZ-67B supposed to produce supercars?
                      23. vvp2
                        vvp2 April 12 2016 21: 34
                        0
                        Quote: Verdun
                        Let's round off this argument. He had already lost his sharpness, if any. I — for the most part — give you numbers and quotes, and you, for the most part, give me complete sophistry.

                        Let's. I like your numbers. They are so ... inconspicuous.
                      24. The comment was deleted.
  3. The comment was deleted.
  4. Jagermeister
    Jagermeister April 12 2016 21: 37
    0
    Very small military contingents fought in Africa.
    The fighting in this theater is more interesting in terms of the actions of sabotage groups, commando raids.
  5. vvp2
    vvp2 April 12 2016 22: 27
    +1
    Quote: Jägermeister
    Very small military contingents fought in Africa.

    Well, in general, the Italian-German contingent was pulling on a separate army. And the whole German field marshal commanded them. Although the German units there are nothing more than the case was.
  6. Jagermeister
    Jagermeister April 12 2016 21: 31
    +1
    Quote: Verdun
    Britannia? A little less than half of Europe? You should at least look at your card ....

    Probably industry was meant.
  7. Verdun
    Verdun April 12 2016 22: 24
    -2
    British industry was not as strong as it might seem at first glance. Dependent on supplies from the colonies, during the war it often suffered from a shortage of raw materials. Röder's submariners were quite successful in the communications. During the Battle of Britain, the only Spitfire engine factory was located under the very nose of the Germans. For the fact that he remained intact, one should thank God, and Hermann Goering, who took over the leadership of the operation.
  8. The comment was deleted.
  9. The comment was deleted.
  10. Jagermeister
    Jagermeister April 12 2016 20: 58
    +1
    The 57-mm gun was produced and made during the war about 3000 (in total about 9000), the British had a 17-pound gun, not inferior to the German 88-mm anti-aircraft gun.
  11. Verdun
    Verdun April 12 2016 21: 31
    -2
    The fact that with the development of anti-tank artillery was delayed, I will not argue. But the 57 mm gun began to be released back in 41 years. They released about 350 pieces, and then the wise men decided that there was no need for such an expensive technique at the moment. It's a shame! Many victims could have been avoided. And the release was resumed at 43, as I understand it, only when the plants settled outside the Urals. At this time, the development of weapons in the United States and Britain went more systematically.
  12. vvp2
    vvp2 April 12 2016 21: 51
    0
    Quote: Verdun
    But the 57 mm gun began to be released back in 41 years. They released about 350 pieces, and then the wise men decided that there was no need for such an expensive technique at the moment. It's a shame!

    You need to publish collections of gossip and jokes. You will do well.
    ZIS-2 in 1941 it was not possible to establish serial production due to the inability of the domestic technological base to mass serial production of trunks of such a length. In the USSR there were only a couple of such plants, one made 52-K anti-aircraft guns, and the second made larger guns. Therefore, end with an Internet bike on this topic.
    Quote: Verdun
    And the release was resumed at 43, as I understand it, only when the plants settled outside the Urals.

    And the issue of ZIS-2 arr. 1943 established because they bought equipment in the United States. Nowhere is the base plant No. 92 ZIS-2 arr. 1941 He did not evacuate from Gorky; he worked there throughout the war.
  13. The comment was deleted.
  14. Jagermeister
    Jagermeister April 12 2016 22: 34
    0
    The 57-mm cannon was complicated, in terms of costs, instead of one ZiS-2, it was possible to produce 4 ZiS-3. This is the reason.
  15. vvp2
    vvp2 April 12 2016 23: 04
    0
    Quote: Jägermeister
    The 57-mm cannon was complicated, in terms of costs, instead of one ZiS-2, it was possible to produce 4 ZiS-3. This is the reason.

    Or 564 strategic slingshots.
    Or 10672 yard slingshots.
    In fact, everything is simpler until we purchased equipment for deep and accurate drilling of trunks in the USA, they could only be done in pilot production. When transferred to serial production, the Yok happened. As a result, at the end of 1941. they were discontinued. And in 1943. launched a gun mod. 1943 It was somewhat different from the arr. 1941 First of all, she had another gun carriage.
  16. vvp2
    vvp2 April 12 2016 22: 05
    +2
    Quote: Jägermeister
    the British had a 17-pound, not inferior to the German 88-mm anti-aircraft guns.

    Significantly superior to her. Just a completely different level of technology. They also had a superior 76,2 mm HV cannon. It roughly corresponded to the German KwK42, which stood on the Panther.
    And also approximately between the German anti-aircraft gun and the 17-pound was the American 90-mm M3. But the American tank 76,2-mm M1 did not reach the German anti-aircraft gun slightly, it was approximately at the level of the Soviet tank 85-mm S-53.
  • Verdun
    Verdun April 12 2016 16: 16
    +1
    Quote: vvp2
    And there, oil prices went up to sky-high heights.

    Enough about oil. Yes, oil was the basis of Soviet exports - 64%. That's only export accounted for 16% of the total GDP.
    1. vvp2
      vvp2 April 12 2016 16: 31
      +1
      Quote: Verdun
      Yes, oil was the basis of Soviet exports - 64%. That's only export accounted for 16% of the total GDP.

      Oil and gas accounted for something like 100% of Soviet PAID exports. The rest was shipped to "friends" for some vague promises of something. But in numbers it was also considered as an export. Although in reality it was just a shipment abroad.
      As for the Soviet GDP, we don’t make us laugh. You will never find real numbers, but those that seem real to you will still turn out to be a hoax. It advises a style like that. That no one guessed, called. Just in case. After all, literally all enemies are around.
    2. Verdun
      Verdun April 12 2016 17: 00
      0
      Quote: vvp2
      You will never find real numbers, but those that seem real to you will still turn out to be a hoax

      Then why do you claim that the document you submitted is true?
    3. vvp2
      vvp2 April 12 2016 17: 04
      +1
      Quote: Verdun
      Then why do you claim that the document you submitted is true?

      Because it is not a report. But if you have doubts, then everything is in your hands. Write a link and require the source.
    4. Verdun
      Verdun April 12 2016 17: 18
      -3
      And further. To the question of the qualities of the T-34 and who wrote what after the war. By Hitler’s order, the village where Koshkin, the creator of the T-34, was born, and even his grave was razed to the ground by bombing after the war?
    5. vvp2
      vvp2 April 12 2016 17: 27
      +2
      Quote: Verdun
      By order of Hitler, the village where Koshkin, the creator of the T-34, was born, and even his grave was razed by bombing to the ground after the war too?

      You write rare tales. Just amazing, in terms of insanity. Where do you just feed on them?
      In the village of Brynchagi, calm down. He does not know anything about Hitler's insidious order.
      And the fact that the Germans bombed Kharkov was not a secret. And there was no sense whatsoever to bomb precisely the grave of Koshkin, Kharkov was then in occupation for quite a while.
    6. Verdun
      Verdun April 12 2016 17: 32
      -1
      If I myself had not been in the village of Brynchagi, in the Yaroslavl region, and had not seen the results of this action, then, having read your words, I probably also doubted ... The village, of course, was rebuilt. But from the cemetery only a fragment of the gate remained. And Kharkov was not only bombed, but also taken, by the way.
    7. vvp2
      vvp2 April 12 2016 17: 40
      0
      Quote: Verdun
      If I myself had not been in the village of Brynchagi, in the Yaroslavl region, and had not seen the results of this action, then, having read your words, I probably also doubted ... The village, of course, was rebuilt.

      Either you fantasize less, or listen to local drunks less. Except for you, no one else knows about "this terrible story".
      Quote: Verdun
      But from the cemetery only a fragment of the gate remained.

      Koshkin was buried in Kharkov. At the First City Cemetery (now Youth Park). Therefore, with reliability, you are a little worse than nothing.
    8. Verdun
      Verdun April 12 2016 17: 44
      -2
      Where Koshkin is buried, I know. And the question of the bombing of the cemetery is not for me, but for those who bombed. And judging by your position, then about Babi Yar or Permilovskie heights - are these also stories of drunkards?
    9. vvp2
      vvp2 April 12 2016 18: 02
      +1
      Quote: Verdun
      And the question with the bombardment of the cemetery is not for me, but for those who bombed

      No, it’s for you. Because you came up with this story, about a personal visit to the Brynchagov and the investigation there, from start to finish.
      Quote: Verdun
      And judging by your position, then about Babi Yar or Permilovskie heights - are these also stories of drunkards?

      Wow. And this distortion is already on a completely different level.
      Learn to lose, it will come in handy in the future.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Jagermeister
    Jagermeister April 12 2016 20: 54
    +2
    You talk all the time about the shortage of Soviet troops, while Germany lacked the lack of soldiers.

    In addition to the three-inch gun, a 100-mm gun went into production. Something you don’t remember about her.
    1. vvp2
      vvp2 April 12 2016 21: 57
      0
      Quote: Jägermeister
      while Germany lacked soldiers.

      This is already in 1945.
      Quote: Jägermeister
      In addition to the three-inch gun, a 100-mm gun went into production. Something you don’t remember about her.

      Nothing to remember. During the war years, a very small number of them were released.
  • Jagermeister
    Jagermeister April 12 2016 20: 47
    +1
    After the Soviet industry started working in the Urals and Siberia, it was no longer possible to "crush" the USSR.
    The USSR produced fairly high-quality weapons, inexpensive and technologically advanced.

    You also compare the heavy Panther tank with the average T-34.
    Whereas Panther’s classmate is IS-2.
    1. vvp2
      vvp2 April 12 2016 21: 13
      -2
      Quote: Jägermeister
      After the Soviet industry started working in the Urals and Siberia, it was no longer possible to "crush" the USSR

      These are stupid fantasies of propaganda, nothing more. Compare the release of more or less adequate equipment in 1944: T-34/85 (10662 units) + ZIS-2 arr. 1943 (2525 units) with the release of Pz.KpfW.IV (3225 units), Pz.KpfW.V (3749 units) and Pak40 (11728 units). I do not even compare the quality of this technique, it is important that it at least somehow corresponded to the level of that time. At the same time, according to any performance characteristics, Soviet equipment was inferior to German technology very decently.
      The rest of the "legendary bullshit" can be ignored. It is easy and simple to see that Germany in 1944. Outstripped USSR for the production of more or less adequate tank and anti-tank weapons.
      And in 1943. the situation was generally deplorable, the USSR issued ONLY 1855 ZIS-2 arr. 1943 And all. While Germany released Pz.KpfW.IV (3023 units), Pz.KpfW.V (1768 units) and Pak40 - 8740 units in the same year.
      Comments are superfluous, it seems to me. Although for the sake of interest, you can take an interest in the loss of BTT in the same Kursk operation. And then everything will become generally clear.
      Quote: Jägermeister
      You also compare the heavy Panther tank with the average T-34.

      Panther, this is the main tank of the Wehrmacht since 1944. And whether it is heavy or flying, it does not matter.
      Quote: Jägermeister
      Whereas Panther’s classmate is IS-2.

      It is possible with the Panther, not really lose much. But for this, Pz.KpfW.VI specifically existed.
      1. Jagermeister
        Jagermeister April 12 2016 22: 05
        0
        Agitprop agitprop, but you did not take into account except IS-2 self-propelled guns IS 122/153 of which 5000 came into operation only in the 44th year - an analogue of the German Jagdtigr which was built in a series of 70 cars.
        BS-3 cannon - 100 mm. You also do not consider adequate weapons?
        All the same, 4000 made for the 44th
        3000 D-1 152 mm.
        In general, the data on the guns is different. Nobody seemed to count them.)))
        1. Verdun
          Verdun April 12 2016 22: 41
          -1
          It was difficult to calculate, since the production of the same product often went on in different factories. The same T-34 was produced at seven different enterprises. Hence the difference, and not only in quality, but also in design and appearance. There was a similar situation with artillery.
        2. vvp2
          vvp2 April 12 2016 22: 48
          +1
          Quote: Jägermeister
          but you didn’t take into account except IS-2 self-propelled guns IS 122/153 of which 5000 came into operation only in the 44th

          To begin with, the ISU-152 does not make any sense, since these are assault guns. And getting from their guns into the tank is possible only by chance or in the cinema.
          As for the ISU-122, then everything is not so simple there either. Good penetration, at the level of the British 76,2 mm 17 pounds, combined with an extremely low rate of fire. In addition, the release in 1944. amounted to only about 1000 pcs. For example, the same StuG III (StuK L / 48) was released in 1943. 3011 pcs., And in 1944. - 3840 pcs.
          So, if you count the self-propelled guns, then the bill will be completely not in favor of the USSR.
          Quote: Jägermeister
          BS-3 cannon - 100 mm. You also do not consider adequate weapons?

          First of all, a very small number of them were released. In addition, I do not consider it successful, as well as the SU-100. Lift and correctly load a 30 kg unitary cartridge, this is not an easy task to calculate.
          BS-3
          Quote: Jägermeister
          BS-3 cannon - 100 mm. You also do not consider adequate weapons?
          All the same, 4000 made for the 44th

          Do not fantasize. As of January 1, 1945, there were 87 guns in the troops.
    2. Verdun
      Verdun April 12 2016 21: 48
      -2
      Classmate IP is "Tiger". The Panther was at least conceived as a medium tank.
      1. Jagermeister
        Jagermeister April 12 2016 22: 45
        +1
        Quote: Verdun
        Classmate IP is "Tiger". The Panther was at least conceived as a medium tank.

        Well, you never know what was conceived.
        Panther weight 45 - tons, the same as that of the IS-2.
        But the gun’s caliber is 76 mm. Against 122 mm in the IS-a.
        Panther is certainly a successful car, control devices, optics. But...
        IP looks preferable.
        T-34 26-ton machine, balanced, a breakthrough development tank.
        26 tons with the 45th is incorrect to compare
        1. vvp2
          vvp2 April 12 2016 22: 58
          -1
          Quote: Jägermeister
          But the gun’s caliber is 76 mm. Against 122 mm in the IS-a.

          At the same time, the penetration of the German KwK42 is not much less than the Soviet 122-mm gun. Even though taking into account the rate of fire, there was no way to smear from IS.
          Quote: Jägermeister
          T-34 26-ton machine, balanced, a breakthrough development tank.

          32 tons actually.
          And an infantry escort tank (combined arms according to Soviet terminology), according to the idea and execution.
          The success development tank (operational in Soviet terminology) was the BT-7 tank, which was to replace the T-50.
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. Verdun
          Verdun April 12 2016 23: 00
          -1
          It's hard to argue here. Some are trying to compare the Yak-3 and the P-47 "Thunderbolt"?)) And about the artillery. Here the opponent writes
          Quote: vvp2
          To begin with, the ISU-152 does not make any sense, since these are assault guns. And getting from their guns into the tank is possible only by chance or in the cinema.

          And he does not even suspect that there were assault and anti-tank versions. And to get ... My uncle commanded the B-4 battery. He told me that when breaking through the defenses a couple of times he found himself in a situation where he had to repel tank attacks. Since there were no direct fire sights for direct fire, they were aimed through the bore. But to evaluate the hit was simple. If you didn’t see the tank after blowing the barrel and opening the lock, then it’s hit!
        4. vvp2
          vvp2 April 12 2016 23: 13
          -2
          Quote: Verdun
          And he does not even suspect that there were assault and anti-tank versions.

          What nonsense. In your style.
          Quote: Verdun
          Since there were no direct fire sights for direct fire, they were aimed through the bore.

          Your uncle is just as much a dreamer as you are. Do not forget that the cannon is loaded for a very long time, it is with separate loading. Therefore, you can knock out either a damaged car, or with a sleeping crew.
          Quote: Verdun
          If you didn’t see the tank after blowing the barrel and opening the lock, then it’s hit!

          These are fairy tales. A tank cannot be demolished by a shell. And the 152-mm howitzer gun pierced exactly as much as the Panther 76,2-mm gun.
  • Verdun
    Verdun April 12 2016 21: 51
    -1
    Quote: vvp2
    These are stupid agitprop fantasies, nothing more

    I sympathize, Jägermeister, that’s come to you!))
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  • Verdun
    Verdun April 12 2016 14: 20
    +1
    The document you cited, apparently printed on a printer, lacks only a security hologram. Well, God bless him. Comparing the "Panther" and the T-34 can only be a stretch. And if we take as a basis your method of calculating the cost of combat, then the lowest is at the "Mauss". Many advocates of tank strategies forget that the main means of fighting tanks during the Second World War were not the tanks themselves, but anti-tank artillery. The task of the commanders planning offensive operations was to concentrate tanks precisely in the sector where the means of counteraction are minimal. Avoid oncoming tank battles. And - yes, of course, given that the Panther was designed on the basis of data obtained from the study of the T-34, the thirty-four is a completely sloppy tank!
    1. vvp2
      vvp2 April 12 2016 15: 43
      -1
      Quote: Verdun
      Judging by everything printed on the printer, the document you cited only lacks a protective hologram.

      Everything is easily checked on the Internet.
      Quote: Verdun
      that the main means of fighting tanks during World War II were not the tanks themselves, but anti-tank artillery.

      It is very convenient to tell our gunners. Given the fact that in the USSR in 1944. there was actually only one gun with normal armor penetration. This is a tank S-53, which stood on the T-34/85.
      And in 1943. there were exactly none. Issued in small quantities ZIS-2 arr. 1943 It was rarely effective beyond 500 m. And the rest were not effective from such a distance, and at all, only very almost point blank. Therefore, they fought a tank F-34 coming under the protection of armor as close as possible.
      Quote: Verdun
      And - yes, of course, given that the Panther was designed on the basis of data obtained from the study of the T-34, the thirty-four is a completely sloppy tank!

      Even you are some kind of completely frenzied fabulist. Somewhere found near Panther some roots of the T-34. Even somehow not funny.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  • Jagermeister
    Jagermeister April 12 2016 20: 25
    +1
    Firstly, the USSR from the 43rd year conducted active offensive operations. The loss of tanks in the offensive is always higher than in defense. Hence the loss.
    The second one. Generals always lack troops, soldiers, and tanks. I do not know a single commander who would consider that he has a fully equipped army.
    The third. 32 million people passed through the service in the Red Army.
    Under arms at the end of the war was up to 12 million. Not a soldier was not enough, but material opportunities to contain such a mass of military personnel.
    1. vvp2
      vvp2 April 12 2016 20: 36
      0
      Quote: Jägermeister
      Firstly, the USSR from the 43rd year conducted active offensive operations. The loss of tanks in the offensive is always higher than in defense. Hence the loss.

      Is it Kursk active? Take an interest in the level of losses, be stunned.
      Quote: Jägermeister
      I do not know a single commander who would consider that he has a fully equipped army.

      You are still lucky. I don’t know a single commander at all.
      Quote: Jägermeister
      32 million people passed through the service in the Red Army.

      This is an interesting argument of incomprehensible meaning.
      Quote: Jägermeister
      Not a soldier was not enough, but material opportunities to contain such a mass of military personnel.

      But the Main Directorate of Formation and Manning of the Red Army is not categorically with you. The document is up there.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA April 12 2016 13: 01
    +4
    Quote: Verdun
    By the way, Guderian - a man, in general, not stupid, believed that it was not worth adopting the expensive T-VI "Panther" tank, giving priority to modernizing the relatively inexpensive and well-mastered T-IV tank.

    At the same time, Guderian did not say how and for what time the factories that produced "three" (namely, they began to make "panthers") would have switched to the production of "fours". Because the manufacturers of "four" and "three" are like UVZ and Kharkov. To switch to a "foreign" tank, they needed about six months with a production drawdown at that time. And the Panzerwaffe in late 1942 - early 1943 needed tanks "yesterday."
    “Panther” was made just on the basis of the most painless transition to it from “three”. So it turned out that it was easier and faster to put a "panther" into a series instead of "three" than to organize the production of "fours" at the same factories.
    By the way, for the same reason, the initial plans to make the "Panther" a single medium tank of the Panzerwaffe failed. For putting it into series at "four" factories would have met with the same difficulties as "four" at three points. And the Panzerwaffe remained again with two types of ST.
    In addition, with the establishment of a series of costs "panthers" and "fours" are almost equal.
  • Jagermeister
    Jagermeister April 12 2016 20: 09
    0
    Quote: Verdun
    By the way, Guderian - a man, in general, not stupid, believed that it was not worth adopting the expensive T-VI "Panther" tank, giving priority to modernizing the relatively inexpensive and well-mastered T-IV tank. In conditions of large-scale wars, it is the cost of equipment that is very important. Otherwise, her losses may be irreparable.

    The fact is that the T-III and T-IV did not give the Germans any hope of victory, because they were about the same level as the T-34 and Sherman machines, produced in quantities unattainable for the German industry. Only a child prodigy could help. Qualitative leap.
    1. Verdun
      Verdun April 12 2016 20: 36
      -2
      Oh yeah! Dreaming with ideas of a superweapon, especially when there is no full-fledged scientific and technical base for this, this is often relevant!
      1. vvp2
        vvp2 April 12 2016 20: 41
        0
        Quote: Verdun
        Dreaming with ideas of a superweapon, especially when there is no full-fledged scientific and technical base for this, this is often relevant!

        The already slightly stale PzKpfw III was replaced by a rather successful and modern PzKpfw V. What kind of "passions" happened for your perception? What is the "super-ness" of the PzKpfw V? Yes, not all countries fought with antediluvian-level weapons (passing them off as legendary). Is this something superb and unusual for you? A normal civilized approach to your soldier and citizen.
        1. Verdun
          Verdun April 12 2016 20: 52
          -1
          The man himself wrote about the "wunderwaffe", excuse me! And "Wunder" in German is a miracle. The fact that "Panther" should not be called a miracle, I agree.
          1. Jagermeister
            Jagermeister April 12 2016 21: 10
            0
            Quote: Verdun
            The man himself wrote about the "wunderwaffe", excuse me! And "Wunder" in German is a miracle. The fact that "Panther" should not be called a miracle, I agree.

            I just think that with the T-IV the Germans could not achieve a strategic advantage. The Germans needed a weapon unconditionally superior to the Allied weapons.
            Panther is considered by many to be the best German tank.
            1. Verdun
              Verdun April 12 2016 21: 16
              +1
              Quantity and simplicity are sometimes more important than technical excellence. In the past, he himself is a designer, and I have to state this. And you know what is the most interesting thing? German tank strategists did not consider the Panther to be an outstanding tank. They gave the palm to the notorious T-34. Americans and British love to write about the outstanding characteristics of the T-V. That is, those who were given in the ass in the Ardennes. At the same time, these critics did not encounter Soviet tanks in real combat.
              1. vvp2
                vvp2 April 12 2016 21: 36
                -1
                Quote: Verdun
                They gave the palm to the notorious T-34.

                Well, it's funny. Why are you writing frankly funny and ridiculous things? Which part of the T-34 was good? Not even the whole tank, but at least a detail? More or less good was the S-53 gun in the T-34/85 tank. But by the time she appeared, it was nothing special. And there’s nothing more to remember.
              2. The comment was deleted.
      2. Jagermeister
        Jagermeister April 12 2016 21: 04
        +1
        Quote: Verdun
        Oh yeah! Dreaming with ideas of a superweapon, especially when there is no full-fledged scientific and technical base for this, this is often relevant!

        Well why. The Germans had a base.
        The Germans had first-class science and an engineering school.
        1. Verdun
          Verdun April 12 2016 21: 06
          -1
          All the more reason to be proud of our victory, without belittling our soldiers, commanders or weapons!
          1. vvp2
            vvp2 April 12 2016 21: 28
            -1
            Quote: Verdun
            without belittling either your soldiers, commanders or weapons!

            There was no talk of soldiers and generals. But regarding the "legendary technology" it is time to understand the situation. And do not write all sorts of nonsense on this topic.
        2. vvp2
          vvp2 April 12 2016 21: 26
          +1
          Quote: Jägermeister
          The Germans had first-class science and an engineering school.

          And the technical base.
        3. The comment was deleted.
    2. Stas57
      Stas57 April 12 2016 20: 46
      +2
      Quote: Jägermeister
      Quote: Verdun
      By the way, Guderian - a man, in general, not stupid, believed that it was not worth adopting the expensive T-VI "Panther" tank, giving priority to modernizing the relatively inexpensive and well-mastered T-IV tank. In conditions of large-scale wars, it is the cost of equipment that is very important. Otherwise, her losses may be irreparable.

      The fact is that the T-III and T-IV did not give the Germans any hope of victory, because they were about the same level as the T-34 and Sherman machines, produced in quantities unattainable for the German industry. Only a child prodigy could help. Qualitative leap.

      The four with 75 was stronger and more explosive than 34, there was also a tiger.
      It would be enough to shoot back
      1. Jagermeister
        Jagermeister April 12 2016 21: 20
        0
        Quote: Stas57


        The four with 75 was stronger and more explosive than 34, there was also a tiger.
        It would be enough to shoot back

        Here you can argue. The T-IV of later modifications was heavier.
        But the thing is different in production volumes.
        T-34 and Shermanov during the war produced 40 thousand each.
        T-IV - no more than 10.
        And so on all positions.
        According to artillery, even though she is scolded here, the same picture. And on airplanes.
        That is, in order to defeat the Germans it was necessary some really miracle weapon.
        1. vvp2
          vvp2 April 12 2016 22: 19
          0
          Quote: Jägermeister
          T-34 and Shermanov during the war produced 40 thousand each.
          T-IV - no more than 10.

          Eo sly account. All T-4s, starting in the spring of 1942. were adequate to the requirements of the current war. Panthers and Tigers were just as adequate. As well as German anti-tank guns.
          The Red Army more or less adequate tanks T-34/85 appeared only in the spring of 1944. And they did not release them very much. The same applies to PTO guns (ZIS-2 model 1943), the release of which was only begun in 1943. and in small quantities.
          Everything else is slag. All these "legendary" T-34/76, ZIS-3, M-42, T-70, TT, PPSh are all slag. Yes, there were a lot of them, but there was not much sense from them. Of course, in some cases, the amount worked. But there weren't too many such cases.
          Why were they released? First of all, there are two main reasons - the fools in power and the technological base. As a fool, I can cite a certain Dzhugashvili, who actively lobbied for the release of T-34s and three-inches. And many more stupid things, but now we are talking about these positions. The damage caused by this lobbying was colossal; these samples of weapons were clearly unsuccessful. And he was not alone. Therefore, it is easy to remember, if there is something shitty, then it is considered "legendary". And with this word they gloss over all the shortcomings.
  • zoknyay82
    zoknyay82 April 12 2016 08: 09
    +5
    Of course, we will never catch up with the American auto industry. Even now. For those years, the car is quite valid. Spartan, which, however, should be an army vehicle. It’s impossible to paint his faults and failures - such was the time, there were few funds and a lot of urgent needs. Even now, the bourgeoisie in our country cannot create a decent "rogue" out of Russian parts. Glory to the heroes of the Soviet automobile industry, who knew how to create similar cars in those conditions!
  • Jagermeister
    Jagermeister April 12 2016 08: 20
    +4
    Excellent article.
    But I read that the first Gas-64 projects were worked out before the war.
    At the initiative of the deputy minister, who read about such developments in an American magazine.

    Zhukov traveled the whole war on the captured Shteyr.
    1. Stas57
      Stas57 April 12 2016 09: 54
      +1
      Quote: Jägermeister
      But I read that the first Gas-64 projects were worked out before the war.
      At the initiative of the deputy minister, who read about such developments in an American magazine.

      Well, there was a lot of development, but in general they could not pull a massive four-wheel drive before the war in the USSR.
      1. Amurets
        Amurets April 12 2016 11: 46
        +2
        Quote: Stas57

        Well, there was a lot of development, but in general they could not pull a massive four-wheel drive before the war in the USSR.

        We all remember some deputy ministers, but there were no ministries at that time, there were people's commissariats. And no one remembered the "Legendary Grandfather" - Vitaly Andreevich Grachev.
        http://ria.ru/world/20160412/1408654992.html
        Problems with the production of SUVs were due to lack of knowledge of CV joints.
        1. Stas57
          Stas57 April 12 2016 19: 34
          0
          Taki yes in SHRUS we could not
          1. Amurets
            Amurets April 12 2016 23: 49
            0
            Quote: Stas57
            Taki yes in SHRUS we could not

            Could, the angles of the spiral were calculated incorrectly. Because of this, the drive quickly failed. When they found a mistake, everything changed. In the book by E. Prochko "Light all-terrain vehicles of the Red Army" the whole history of the appearance and development of all-terrain vehicles Gas and the life of V. A. Grachev is described , the creator of the Gaz and ZiL all-terrain vehicles. Look in the book by E. Kochnev "Secret Cars of the Soviet Army" how many cars he created. By the way, Weiss's CV joint was present on all Grachev's all-terrain vehicles. This is a link to the SHRUSS.
            http://motor.ucoz.net/publ/51-1-0-525
            1. Stas57
              Stas57 April 13 2016 14: 21
              0
              Quote: Amurets
              Could, the spiral angles were calculated incorrectly. Because of this, the drive quickly failed. When they found the error, everything changed

              when they could, the war began, and it was not until the massive SHRUS, things more urgent for the war appeared.
      2. Verdun
        Verdun April 12 2016 22: 07
        -2
        Well why. GAZ-AAA, ZIS-42. Only this truck and the series did not have time to deploy - the war began.
        1. Uncle VasyaSayapin
          Uncle VasyaSayapin April 13 2016 15: 03
          -1
          GAZ-AAA was not all-wheel drive. Moreover, practice has shown that trucks with wide tires of a large diameter and at the same time non-dual are better than dual with conventional ones, i.e. GAZ-AAA - a dead end, the ultimate dead end of which was the truth ZiS-151. And in general, this ridiculous idea to mass produce one and a half for the army, when there were 3-ton ZiS-5 and ZiS-6. A lorry is a kind of Gazelle with a shortened body, wheels from the Lawn and a cramped cabin. It seems stupid to make a Gazelle with two rear axles, but then people just tried.
          1. Verdun
            Verdun April 13 2016 16: 24
            -1
            I would not say "demanded". The development of the car as a whole went on and the designers tried different ways. Half-tracked vehicles don't shock you, do you? As for tires, it's all about technology. Normal arched tires learned to produce after the Second World War. Most of the American off-road trucks produced during this period also had twin rear wheels.
    2. Punikki
      Punikki April 12 2016 12: 37
      -1
      Quote: Jägermeister
      Zhukov traveled the whole war on the captured Shteyr.

      And Lenin was at Rolls-Royce, Stalin was at Packard, and Brezhnev generally had a collection of expensive foreign cars in the amount of about 100 pieces, on which he drove along Soviet roads, which the traffic police and the army blocked for this!
      Ordinary citizens rode on roaring buses and bicycles.
  • Verdun
    Verdun April 12 2016 09: 02
    +2
    The Gaz-67B was a good car. But his story illustrates how voluntarism of leadership can become an obstacle to the development of mechanical engineering. The development of the Soviet "jeep" began before the war. NATI-AR and GAZ-64 took part in the competition. The designers understood that they needed to create a car with a wide wheelbase. However, at this time in the USSR, several Willis MA samples were tested. The fact that only heard about such machines is slyness. This car had a narrow wheelbase. Some of the leaders insisted that everything be like that of the Americans. As a result, the winning GAZ-64 had a narrow wheelbase. Later it had to be expanded (the car turned out to be painfully unstable). This version was named GAZ-67B. In the USA, the narrow-wheel Willis MA was produced for a short time. Already in 1941, it was replaced by the Willis MB, a model developed by the small company Bantam, for which it received the name Willis-Bantam.
  • pimen
    pimen April 12 2016 09: 20
    +1
    so where did such uncomfortable doorways from UAZ-469 and its clones come from
  • Gomunkul
    Gomunkul April 12 2016 12: 20
    +2
    The picture of the creation and production of cars during the war years in Gorky will not be complete, if not to talk about the bombing of the city.
    Gorky during the Great Patriotic War, from autumn 1941 to summer 1943, was bombed by German aircraft. The main purpose of the bombing was the destruction of the industrial potential of the city, the plant received the most damage. Molotov. During the war, enemy bombers made 43 raids, of which 26 raids at night, during which 33934 incendiary bombs and 1631 HE bombs were dropped on the city. Gorky's bombing became the largest Luftwaffe air strike on the rear areas of the USSR during the war.
    hi
    1. Jagermeister
      Jagermeister April 12 2016 21: 26
      0
      Everything was limited to Gorky.
      The Germans could not reach the Urals. It would not be strategic bombers.
  • Punikki
    Punikki April 12 2016 12: 34
    0
    Meanwhile The production volumes of GAZ-67 and GAZ-67Б during the war were relatively small - 4851 units, which amounted to less than 1 / 10 from the supply of Lend-Lease Willys MB and Ford GPW to the USSR That is also important!
    Well and still, the car not only conceptually repeated American jeeps, which Soviet engineers measured with a ruler, but basically had units from the GAZ-61, but they were an exact copy of foreign cars and were made on foreign equipment.
    But the car could not boast of either the convenience or the reliability of its American relatives, changing from a Willis to a "goat" was a punishment!
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA April 12 2016 13: 09
      +6
      Quote: Punikki
      Meanwhile, the production volumes of the GAZ-67 and GAZ-67B during the war years were relatively small - 4851 units, which amounted to less than 1/10 of the supply of Lend-Lease Willys MB and Ford GPW to the USSR That's what is also important!

      The reason is simple: GAZ during the war focused on three main things: trucks, armored cars and LT / assault SAU.

      By the way, the release of the GAZ-64/67 can safely add BA-64 - about 8200 of them were released during the war.
      1. Amurets
        Amurets April 12 2016 13: 27
        +2
        Quote: Alexey RA
        The reason is simple: GAZ during the war focused on three main things: trucks, armored cars and LT / assault SAU.

        You forgot another new motor production, which you took for the production of aircraft engines and allocated in a separate engine plant.
  • Forever so
    Forever so April 12 2016 15: 48
    +2
    Just the other day I watched the series Cars in uniform. What a big-headed people we have, and what ..... they’re climbing into the government. One of the reasons for the destruction of the USSR today is called the excess of money from the people in the late 70s and the lack of supply from the state. And the same goats to sell to the population ???, no, the official head did not think of this before. Maybe they were afraid that people on the road through the pole to Canada will run away ?? Apparently they themselves had such thoughts, which subsequent events confirmed. Ah, what kind of vehicles we could ride ours !!! cars.
    1. vvp2
      vvp2 April 12 2016 15: 57
      +1
      Quote: Forever so
      Ah, what kind of vehicles we could ride ours !!! cars.

      Could not. Because the machines were in storage, it was basically a fiction. In this, I myself have repeatedly been convinced of being in parks. Parks, it was a bunch of painted, washed auto bodies. Maybe from 5 or 10 cars and it was possible to collect something that could move around. But in fact, the equipment there was in a terrible technical condition. In general, the very idea of ​​creating such parks, with its external health, actually seems to me deeply harmful. Huge state money went into rust. Moreover, completely without any kind of return.
      Well, what to do is "socialism".
      1. Verdun
        Verdun April 12 2016 19: 18
        0
        This was not the case everywhere. In parts of the technical reserve, cars could be found in almost perfect condition. Another thing is that they did not reach ordinary mortals. We needed connections.
    2. Amurets
      Amurets April 12 2016 23: 31
      +1
      Quote: Forever so
      Just the other day I watched the series Cars in uniform. What a big-headed people we have, and what ..... they’re climbing into the government. One of the reasons for the destruction of the USSR today is called the excess of money from the people in the late 70s and the lack of supply from the state. And the same goats to sell to the population ???, no, the official head did not think of this before. Maybe they were afraid that people on the road through the pole to Canada will run away ?? Apparently they themselves had such thoughts, which subsequent events confirmed. Ah, what kind of vehicles we could ride ours !!! cars.

      A controversial moment! At that time, "HIS MAJESTY VAL" acted and the predominance of industry of group A over group B. That is, the predominance of production of means of production over production of means of consumption. And in Russian it sounds like this: "There is nothing to develop private-proprietary instincts."
  • Verdun
    Verdun April 12 2016 16: 19
    -1
    Quote: vvp2
    Everything is easily checked on the Internet.

    Only by IP address? The document of that time is an original, with a signature and a seal.
    1. vvp2
      vvp2 April 12 2016 16: 25
      0
      Quote: Verdun
      The document of that time is an original, with a signature and a seal.

      You messed up a boltology forum with something else. If you are interested, you can specify the question here.
      http://www.battlefield.ru/mobreserve-25-09-1943.html
  • Aaleks1974
    Aaleks1974 April 12 2016 18: 15
    0
    Quote: vvp2
    Quote: Verdun
    The document of that time is an original, with a signature and a seal.

    You messed up a boltology forum with something else. If you are interested, you can specify the question here.
    http://www.battlefield.ru/mobreserve-25-09-1943.html

    So they write there that the document is "linden", for example, Shchadenko, who signed the document, has not served there for six months. So, such tables can be in the Word in half an hour, a dozen dash off, with any numbers.
    1. vvp2
      vvp2 April 12 2016 19: 10
      -1
      Quote: Aaleks1974
      So they write there that the document is "linden", for example, Shchadenko, who signed the document, has not served there for six months.

      And who writes? Smart "experts" with incomplete high school education continuing their studies in high school? In fact, Shchadenko on September 26, 1943. was appointed PMC of the southern front. And on September 24, he was still at the Glavupraform.
      Here is what "Military Literature" writes about him:
      Schadenko Efim Afanasevich (1885-1951) - Colonel General; at the beginning of the war - head of the Office for the command and command staff of the Red Army; from July 1941 to May 1943 - Deputy People's Commissar of Defense of the USSR, from August 1941 to September 1943 - Head of the Main Directorate of Formation and Staffing of the Red ArmyIn September-October 1943 he was a member of the military council of the Southern Front, from October 1943 to January 1944 he was a member of the military council of the 4th Ukrainian Front. - No. 3, 10, 11, 22, 34, 35, 39, 42, 44, 45, 60, 82, 88, 89, 97, IZ.
  • tolancop
    tolancop April 12 2016 21: 04
    0
    Quote: Verdun
    The Gaz-67B was a good car. But his story illustrates how voluntarism of leadership can become an obstacle to the development of mechanical engineering. The development of the Soviet "jeep" began before the war. NATI-AR and GAZ-64 took part in the competition. The designers understood that they needed to create a car with a wide wheelbase. However, at this time in the USSR, several Willis MA samples were tested. The fact that only heard about such machines is slyness. This car had a narrow wheelbase. Some of the leaders insisted that everything be like that of the Americans. As a result, the winning GAZ-64 had a narrow wheelbase. Later it had to be expanded (the car turned out to be painfully unstable). ...

    The track was expanded not so much to obtain stability as to ensure the possibility of driving on broken roads - the narrow GAZ-64 did not fall into the track of trucks. And the GAZ-64 did not get on the rails.
    Somewhere this was mentioned on the open spaces of tyrnet.
    1. Verdun
      Verdun April 12 2016 22: 31
      0
      Are you telling the person who himself worked in US? If Boris Fitterman would be alive, he would tell you a lot. After all, there was a witness to those events. And the Internet is pretty shaky soil.
  • tolancop
    tolancop April 13 2016 11: 18
    0
    Quote: Verdun
    Are you telling the person who himself worked in US? If Boris Fitterman would be alive, he would tell you a lot. After all, there was a witness to those events. And the Internet is pretty shaky soil.

    I agree that the vastness of the tyrnet is shaky. And there is a lot of garbage in it. Only the version about the widening of the track for compatibility with the track of trucks and the railway track, IMHO, has the right to exist. Although I fully admit that 2 birds with one stone were killed: both compatibility is ensured and stability is increased. I will not undertake to assert unequivocally, but it seems that in the memories of front-line drivers I met mentions of the track that coincides (close) with the freight one, as a positive quality of the GAZ-67. "Willis" was in many ways more convenient, but in this it lost to the GAZik definitely.
  • Velizariy
    Velizariy April 13 2016 14: 50
    +1
    Quote: Jägermeister
    Agitprop agitprop, but you did not take into account except IS-2 self-propelled guns IS 122/153 of which 5000 came into operation only in the 44th year - an analogue of the German Jagdtigr which was built in a series of 70 cars.

    This, as it were, is not quite true, it is not at all)
    Jagdtiger is an anti-tank weapon! and ISU 152 has a completely different purpose, but not VET. Although used and successfully, but it is not VET.
    And the comparison by weight of the IS 2 and the Panther is not correct, for the Germans it was a "medium" tank with a 75 mm gun. And IS was heavy, his opponent is Tiger.
    PS The Allies did not possess until 1944. at least a tank close to the Panther. Then the Pershing "concept" came out. But the Soviet industry, starting with the T 44, went ahead. But that is another story)
  • iouris
    iouris April 17 2016 02: 24
    0
    The production of cars was practically stopped, especially because the Germans bombed the Gorky Automobile Plant. We received cars under Lend-Lease. At the same time, in particular, the "Willis" was not in service with the US Army. Before the war, it was designed specifically for supply to the Allies. The United States was planning a war and profiting from it.
  • Lens
    Lens April 17 2016 21: 54
    0
    the army machine should be like that - simple, reliable, maintainable ... and if it’s also pretty ... alas, the current galaxy has lost almost all of these qualities. became expensive, complex and without a half liter can not be figured out!
  • dontsov.an
    dontsov.an April 23 2016 16: 56
    0
    My friend has one. Every year on Victory Day we ride on it, and so it stands in the garage. I don’t know how people rode 90 on it, when I’m 40, I feel uncomfortable, although the brakes are already step-by-step, on hydraulics, because regular ones do not brake at all. The spring in the starter broke, through which the rotation is transmitted, now I have to start the curves, I do not know where to get this. The checkpoint is 1 in 1 from gas51, and the front axle is connected from COM. The engine works very softly and starts up well, all cast iron, there is no oil pressure at all, it is somehow pumped to the necks, and the rest is lubricated by spraying. The tank is a dashboard, copper, does not rust; fuel can flow from it without gravity without a gas pump.