Military Review

Snatch a piece of Russia ... Pilsudski's unfulfilled hopes

60
Snatch a piece of Russia ... Pilsudski's unfulfilled hopes



History Russian-Polish relations have long been burdened with problems. They have not disappeared today. They were after the revolutionary events of October 1917. In the very first days after the Bolsheviks came to power, Polish political leaders established a close relationship with the Entente to prepare the newly formed Polish Army for intervention, hoping that participation in it would be generously paid.

The documents of the Supreme Council of the Entente testify to these aggressive plans of Poland. Thanks to the financial assistance of this military alliance, first of all, France, the 2 th Haller Army Corps was formed on the territory of Russia after the revolution. It consisted of Polish detachments deployed in Arkhangelsk and Murmansk, the 4 Division of General Zeligovsky, which was formed in Southern Russia, and the 5 Division of the Siberian Colonel Plague. All of them were subordinate to the High Command of the Entente and took part in the intervention.

In the north of Russia, Polish units participated in hostilities on the Dvina, Onega fronts, in the area of ​​the Arkhangelsk railway. 4-division Zeligovskogo took part in hostilities in the area of ​​Tiraspol, Kanev, Belyaevka, in the occupation of Odessa, along with the French troops. The 5-Siberian division was stationed in the Novonikolayevsk region of Krasnoyarsk, where it protected the territory of the Trans-Siberian railway, covered the retreat of Kolchak's troops, participated in the battles against the Red Army in the Ufa and Zlatoust areas. In addition, according to the battle schedule of the Polish troops, as of 10 March 1919, three Polish companies were in Baku.

For the maintenance and armament of the interventionists (Poles, Czechs, Yugoslavs, Romanians), as well as Kolchak's army in Siberia and the White Guards in Ukraine, only France provided 1919-1920. loans totaling 660 million 863 thousand francs, and 23 on April 1919 of the year entered into a financial agreement with Poland for the amount of 1 billion 100 million francs. These funds were intended only for the maintenance of the Polish army, the supply of weapons and other military equipment. In addition, in April-June 1919, as a result of persistent requests from Poland, the 1 and 3 corps of the Haller army, which had been formed in France since June 1917, were redeployed to Poland. The cost of this share amounted to 350 million francs. With the help of this army, the Entente intended to create after the revolution a solid barrier against the Red Army, to use it in the struggle against "external Bolshevism."

After the relocation of Haller’s army and its merger with the Polish national army that had been formed, Poland stepped up its activities to implement its plan for joining the “eastern lands”. In July 1919, Eastern Galicia, 74% of the population of which were Ukrainians, was occupied by the Polish army.



Poland began to seize the Belarusian and Lithuanian lands in the same year. The Polish army occupies Vilna, advances to Minsk, in connection with which a member of the Polish National Committee (PNK) in Paris E. Pilz addressed 28 on April 1919 of the French Foreign Ministry with a request to achieve the withdrawal of German troops from Grodno and Suvalki, where, as in the Baltic States , they were preserved by the Entente to deter the advance of the Red Army.

Marshal Foch, Commander-in-Chief of the Entente, writes in a letter to the Chairman of the Paris Peace Conference that the Entente cannot agree with Germany’s decision to urgently withdraw its troops from Latvia and Lithuania after a truce with the Red Army, and motivates this: “In the Baltic provinces the withdrawal of German troops can only be envisaged when the local contingents will be able to provide their own means of defense against Bolshevism ... It is necessary that the Allied Powers render the Balts without delay yskim provinces help, they need to strengthen their forces ... "However, he notes that on the eastern front, the Poles have come in Vilna, and at the same time sufficient funds to firmly resist the Red Army. Therefore, Foch concludes, he considers it possible to withdraw German troops from a number of areas, which PNK insists on.

After the capture of Minsk, Pilsudski declared in September 1919 of the year that only his desire to follow the policy of the Entente, and especially France, prevented him from ordering troops to move to Kovno. Since the end of 1919, the Polish government has taken steps to develop new concepts for the change of power in our country.

In an interview with the French representative in Warsaw, Pralon, Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs of Poland, Skszyński outlined three possible ways to achieve this goal: with the help of Germany, through direct intervention by one of the Entente countries, or by creating a Russian-Polish alliance. Rejecting the idea of ​​restoring the previous order in Russia with the intervention of Germany, recognizing that no great Allied power is able to effectively intervene in Russian affairs, he proposed a Russian-Polish solution to this problem. 17-18 October, October 1919 was held an emergency secret meeting of the foreign and military commissions of the Polish Sejm, in connection with the growing discontent of the socialists, Poland's participation in the intervention. Reporting this, Pralon expressed the opinion that the government of this country would seek from the Entente to clarify its policy with respect to Soviet Russia, approve cooperation with the Russian counterrevolution, using the fear of the Entente about German influence in Russia and the desire of the Polish socialists to make peace with the Bolsheviks.

18 January 1920, Deputy Polish War Minister General Sosnkovsky, in a letter to the head of the French military mission in Poland, General Henri, writes that Poland considers the Bolsheviks the only obstacle and enemy in Eastern Europe, that it is necessary to decide finally and urgently whether war is necessary against Bolshevism to calm the whole world whether the victory is necessary in the interests of the entire Entente. Sosnkovsky requested that Poland be given the opportunity to become a global “peacemaker” and support their aggression in Russia with money and other assistance.



The Polish High Command reacted sharply negatively to the partial lifting of the economic blockade of the Soviet Republic by the Entente. It argued that the Bolsheviks were not threatened in the future by internal shocks, as “the Russian masses are not capable of insurgent actions and, in the end, most of them accepted the real order of things”, that the renewal of economic ties with Russia would strengthen its position, will weaken anti-government tendencies in the country, restore hope for the future, and under the cover of trade relations, Bolshevik propaganda will be facilitated and strengthened.

Knowing the belligerent plans of Poland, General Henri suggested that, in order to strengthen the anti-Bolshevik barrier, create a unified command and push this barrier as far as the Dnieper. In solving this problem, he believed, Poland, whether as a buffer state, or as a representative of the Entente, in the organization of Russian borders can provide an invaluable service. The defeat of the Russian white armies entails great dangers for it and Europe. The Entente, according to General Henry, should help Poland by all means in its power so that Poland can solve the difficulties of administrative, military training of organized Belarusian and Ukrainian parts, which will be entrusted with pushing the temporary borders of Bolshevism to the Dnieper.

After receiving this letter, Marshal Foch advises the Minister of War of France, who was also the chairman of the Paris Peace Conference, to study these issues at the High Council of the Entente in order to “restore order in Russia”. In January, 1920 in secret references for Marshal Foch about the possibility of the Soviet-Polish conflict and the ability of the Polish Army to resist the Red Army was criticized from a military and political point of view by the Polish command plan of an offensive in the area of ​​Dvina-Dnepr. It contained a warning that the advancement of the Polish troops to the Dnieper could inflame the national feelings of the Russians, contribute to the growth of the influence of the communists. In this regard, Poland was asked to direct efforts to improve its defensive position. The certificate noted, in particular, that the rural population of these regions, which had been in Soviet Russia for two years, became the owner of the land and would not enthusiastically return to the country under the protection of Polish bayonets of large landowners, mainly Poles. Poland is trying to return to the borders of 1772 of the year and regain its power in Western Ukraine under the guise of a long occupation. She has already attracted Petlura, who is very popular in these areas, to her side. Without a doubt, she is trying to use her influence to create a local Ukrainian government, again linked to Poland. All these measures, it was stated in the certificate, have a far-reaching political focus.

Back in October, Colonel Georges 1919, sent by Marshal Foch on a special mission to Warsaw, warned of the need to contain Poland on a dangerous path, where Polish excessive ambitions are pushing her to confront Russia.

The Entente and, above all, France were interested in strengthening the Polish state, which could become an obstacle to the creation of a Russian-German bloc. But they feared the inclusion of territories with non-Polish population. This is evidenced by the reaction to the letter to the Paris Peace Conference of Professor Tomashivsky, the Ukrainian delegate from Galicia at this conference. In it, he argued the absurdity of Poland’s return to the borders of 1772 of the year, stressed how dangerous it is for Europe, and expressed regret about the conference’s intention to transfer Eastern Galicia to Poland. He recalled that at a time when the Ukrainians had to choose between Poland and Russia, they chose Russia. The certificate for Foch gave the conclusion to this letter that France sees Poland only as a homogeneous state, without including any territories of other countries.

Meanwhile, in connection with the liquidation of the Western Front after the signing of the Polish-German peace agreement, the Polish High Command was able to concentrate its forces on the Eastern Front. In March, 1920, Pilsudski issued completely secret orders to reorganize the Polish Army on the Eastern Front, preparing it for offensive operations.

And at the same time, Marshal Foch sends regular instructions to General Henry, demanding to speed up the development of the French defense plan of Poland, with instructions to submit it to the Polish government in the form of proposals. Finally, 17 on April 1920 of the year, Henri announces that Foch sent a defense plan, drawn up according to the instructions of the Marshal. In a covering letter, he writes about the transfer of this plan to the Polish high command and warns that Poland is preparing only for offensive operations.

Ten days before the start of the Soviet-Polish war, General Henri urgently informs Marshal Foch about an important conversation with Pilsudski, during which he declared that the time had come for a final decision, but he does not feel absolutely free, as military and political issues Eastern problems are closely related, and therefore he should know the views of France and the Entente. Pilsudski came to the conclusion that the Polish Army had some advantage over the Red Army, and therefore he was confident of victory. To implement it, Pilsudski developed four possible options for the offensive, which he outlined in detail in a letter to the French general. Henri agreed with Pilsudski’s opinion on the state of both armies, only noting the fact that if operations were active and lengthy, difficulties could arise that would require help from the Entente.

The next day, after a conversation with Henri Pilsudski, he signed an order to launch the offensive of the Polish army in the direction of Kiev under his direct command of 25 on April 1920 of the year. On the eve of the offensive, Pilsudski signed a military-political agreement with Petlyura. As a result of the joint offensive 6 June 1920, Kiev was taken.



But already 26 June in a personal letter to General Henry, Marshal Foch writes that the Polish front, which was broken by Budyonny at the mouth of the Pripyat, was cracking along the whole length, since it was everywhere fragile, and again insists on defensive measures, which he repeatedly stated in his instructions, since 18 June 1919 of the year.

On June 30, General Buyat (Chief of the General Staff of the French Army) sends Foch a certificate under the heading "Poland is in danger." In this reference, he indicated that the Polish command, underestimating the strength of the Bolshevik army, trusting Petliura’s help, launched an offensive in Ukraine, between the Dniester and the Dnieper at an 400 km front, but in less than two months the Poles were driven back. The result of the offensive was negative. The Polish army was exhausted and lacked ammunition and equipment. The Soviet government has repeatedly expressed its will to continue the war against Poland until the final military and political victory. General Bute was sure that if the Polish army continued to resist, it would exhaust itself, and as a result, due to the lack of reserves, its front would be broken. Then the very existence of Poland will be at stake, and the interests of the Entente in Eastern Europe will be seriously compromised. The French general suggested that as the only means of salvation, an immediate retreat from territories with a mixed population supporting the Russians and the Communists, they saw a serious danger to the rear of the Polish army. Butte suggested that the Entente Supreme Council send Marshal Foch to Warsaw to jointly develop a defense plan, appoint a military adviser, and also develop a plan for the immediate supply of the Polish army with a wide range of assistance to gain an advantage over the Red Army. The French were extremely critical of the state of the armed forces of Poland. They were sure that the Polish army was not able to stop the Red Army. Therefore, a truce should be concluded immediately, otherwise, if the Red Army manages to provide itself with supplies, it will be in Warsaw on 15 on August, and no Polish military force will be able and unwilling to try to stop it. And regarding the information provided by the Poles, an employee of the French military mission wrote the following: “What the newspapers say about the courage of the Polish troops is a lie and an archilozh, and information from the communiqué about the fighting is nothing more than dusting your eyes.” As they say, comments are superfluous.



The newspapers launched a brutal campaign against Pilsudski, exposing his military incapacity, his political levity, when he alone, without the approval of his ministry, undertook in April the “Ukrainian adventure”. In connection with the threatening situation for the Polish army, France and Britain began to discuss the provision of urgent military assistance to Poland, as well as the transportation of military equipment to Poland, which was difficult because of the difficult political situation in Danzig, where port workers were on strike, refusing to unload the ships, and therefore Rozvadovsky , Chief of the General Staff of the Polish Army, proposed even to occupy Danzig by Allied forces. 24 July 1920 was visited by the Chief of the General Staff of the Entente Military Committee, General Weygand, as the head of the French-British mission to "rescue the Polish army."

If, according to French Prime Minister Millerand, “the latest offensive of the Polish forces and the territorial ambitions of Poland inflamed the national feelings of all Russians,” then in August 1920, the Red Army’s attack on Warsaw led to the same results. Thanks to the blunders of Tukhachevsky, as well as the decisive measures taken by the Entente to assist the Polish Army, it was able to defeat the Red Army, which was operating in the Warsaw sector.

20 August 1920, Marshal Foch, sends to Weygan a telegram about the need to provide for the future occupation of Poland by its neighboring territories. That in general coincided with the wishes of Pilsudski, who openly expressed his intention to continue the aggressive policy in the East; Knowing about the differences in the Entente countries in determining their positions with respect to Soviet Russia, Pilsudski was convinced that Poland should act alone, relying on France, and that being at the head of all small states bordering Russia, he, Pilsudski, should decide Eastern problem to their advantage. On Polish territory, with the consent of Pilsudski, Savinkov, chairman of the Russian Political Committee in Warsaw, continued to be actively involved in the formation of the White Guard army, hoping to send it to the Polish front under the Polish command by November 9 November. At the same time, there were negotiations between the representatives of Wrangel and the Entente, with the Ukrainian nationalists and Poland. Wrangel proposes to create a single Polish-Russian front under the French command to "deliver a decisive blow to the Soviet authorities," because he believed that the conclusion of the Soviet-Polish world would make "the Bolshevik danger inevitable." In response to this proposal, the French Foreign Minister said that France is extremely interested in extracting the benefits of current events in order to finally end Soviet Russia.

Fearing the defeat of the Wrangel army, Rozvadovsky expresses his French mentors in October 1920 the desire to achieve a military alliance of the Ukrainian troops of General Pavlenko and the White Guard 3 of the Russian army of General Peremykin, which was achieved on November 5 of 1920 of the year. 18 November (i.e., two days after the liquidation of the Wrangel southern front), as a result of joint vigorous measures by France, Poland and the White Guard, this military alliance took shape in a military-political agreement between representatives of Petliura and Savinkov. A few days after the final defeat, the remnants of the White Guard troops took refuge in Poland, which was also provided for by the agreement and responded to the plans to prepare Pilsudski and Savinkov for a new military campaign against Soviet Russia.


Sources:
Meltyukhov M. Soviet-Polish War. Military-political confrontation 1918-1939 M .: Veche, 2001. C.12-44.
Pykhalov I. Last dog of the Entente // Special Forces of Russia. No.9 (72). 2002. C. 6-17
Yu. Ivanov. Essays on the history of Soviet-Polish relations in documents 1917 — 1945. // Our contemporary. 2003. No.10. C.38-46.
Popova S. Marshal Pilsudski and the October Revolution. // VIEW.1990. No.12. C. 24-30
Simonova T. Soviet Russia (USSR) and Poland. M .: Quadriga, 2013 G.S.3-8, 56-89.
Kuzmin N. The collapse of the last campaign of the Entente. M .: State publishing house of political literature, 1958. C.42-76.
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  1. venaya
    venaya April 12 2016 06: 26
    +5
    The Entente and, above all, France were interested in strengthening the Polish state, which could become an obstacle to the creation of the Russian-German bloc.

    Here, and it is here that you need to look for reasons such as the need for the enemies of Russia of the Russian Empire, and the creation of a new buffer state formation between the related peoples of Prussia (Germany) and its other eastern part - the Russian Empire. Especially note - France was then in the forefront of Russia's enemies, and there were good reasons for this.
  2. populist
    populist April 12 2016 06: 46
    +5
    It is unfortunate that they failed to defeat Poland in 1920 or leave Western Ukraine and Western Belarus behind them. In this case, the 1941 events would develop differently, in the best case.
    1. igordok
      igordok April 12 2016 08: 01
      +6
      Quote: populist
      It is unfortunate that they failed to defeat Poland in 1920 or leave Western Ukraine and Western Belarus behind them. In this case, the 1941 events would develop differently, in the best case.

      History has no subjunctive mood. Maybe 1941 would not have happened. I mean the aggression of Europe against the USSR.
      I am interested in how Polish soldiers defended Poland in Arkhangelsk in 1919.



      Parade of Poles on Pskov Avenue in Arkhangelsk.
      1. populist
        populist April 12 2016 21: 53
        0
        igordok
        History has no subjunctive mood.

        Historical experience has such an inclination.

        “History does not tolerate a subjunctive mood - this common phrase only seems indisputable at first glance. Probably there is no such historian who, trying to understand the intricacies of the past, would not ask the question“ What would happen if? .. ”
        And Toynbee.
  3. qwert
    qwert April 12 2016 07: 12
    +10
    If not for the "brilliant" Tukhachevsky, then Warsaw would have been taken. And this mediocrity in the Khrushchev and Gorbachev times was exalted as a great commander.
    And Poland, if I am not mistaken, Churchill called the "European jackal" because they always tried to seize the lands of a neighboring state, which was going through hard times. They chewed from Czechoslovakia, from Russia ...
    As a result, we paid in 1939 year. And only thanks to our country in the 1945 year they regained their state, and even grew territory, but too quickly forgot the good.
    1. parusnik
      parusnik April 12 2016 07: 22
      +13
      And Poland, if I'm not mistaken, Churchill called the "European Jackal"..Hyenas of Europe ...
    2. inkass_98
      inkass_98 April 12 2016 07: 51
      +3
      Tukhachevsky, as I understand it, was glorified not only in the Khrushchev era, since he became one of the first five marshals of the USSR. Those. not entirely mediocrity was, apparently, and was able to learn something.
      1. avt
        avt April 12 2016 08: 40
        +7
        Quote: inkass_98
        . Those. not really mediocrity was, apparently

        Talented and not even afraid to say - a brilliant adventurer.
        Quote: inkass_98
        and was able to learn something.

        You will laugh, but you were capable of learning .... Budyonny, who graduated from the academy, and Marshal Misha more and more on a whim and with the aplomb of the same Triandafilov copy-paste. But against the background of Voroshilov, yes, he looked brilliant, roano until the moment His experimental Sachers with weapons did not cost the USSR a pretty penny, but they just didn’t leave the Red Army almost without artillery. Well, Buonapartist manners, but in fact, with his character, the other end was not foreseen. With regards to Poland, just now on TV I heard from Denisov what was carefully hushed up all these years, like the atrocities of the Great-Ukrainian people in Khatyn, namely, Stalin, with the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, fulfilled the decision following the results of the First World War and entered the eastern border defined by Poland, called ,, Curzon's line "and ..... turned out to be the aggressor! wassat
        1. Aleksander
          Aleksander April 12 2016 11: 24
          +6
          Quote: avt
          Molotov's Ribbentrop pact fulfilled the decision following the results of the First World War and reached the eastern border defined by Poland, called the Curzon Line and ..... turned out to be the aggressor


          So the Entente proposed this Line in July 1920, when the Red Army attacked both Poland and Soviet Russia.
          Moreover, Poland agreed to admit this line. On July 11, the British Foreign Minister, Lord Curzon, sent a note to the Russian foreign narcotist G.V. Chicherin demanding an end to the Soviet offensive on this line.

          Curzon's note was considered at a meeting of the Central Committee of the RCP (B.) Of 16 on July, and by a majority of votes it was decided to reject it in the assumption of Sovietization of Poland and the initiation of revolution in Germany and other countries of Western Europe.

          Further, the Red Army was defeated and surrendered not only Polish, but also Western Russian territories.

          So crazy plans for the World Revolution killed tens of Russian thousands of soldiers and pushed back the reunification of lands for 20 long years, and also gave an occasion to call Russia an aggressor.

          And today, the western borders of Ruins and Blarusi are basically the same Curzon line. By the way, these borders have nothing to do with the RM Pact (as the Poles and Ukrainians chat), but was established by ALL victorious powers at the Potsdam Conference of 1945.
          1. avt
            avt April 12 2016 17: 35
            +2
            Quote: Aleksander
            So the Entente proposed this Line in July 1920, when the Red Army attacked both Poland and Soviet Russia.

            what No.
            On the day of the signing of the Versailles Peace Treaty between Poland and the main allied and united powers - Britain, the USA, France, Italy, Japan - a special treaty was signed to protect the rights of national minorities in Poland. The introductory part of this act established that Poland exercises sovereignty "over a part of the former Russian Empire inhabited mostly by Poles." Guided by this provision and acting on the basis of the rights provided for in Art. 87 Treaty of Versailles *, the Supreme Council adopted on 8. XII 1919 "Declaration on the provisional eastern border of Poland", signed by Clemenceau as chairman of the peace conference. In this document, the ethnographic principle was taken as the basis for defining Poland's eastern border.
            Somehow 1920 didn’t work out for a year of development, the decision, like the rejection of Crimea by Wilson, was worked out long before the announcement, and the Poles simply wanted to confront the fact and write off them against the Bolshevism.
            1. Aleksander
              Aleksander April 12 2016 21: 44
              +2
              Quote: avt
              Somehow 1920 didn’t work out for a year of development, the decision, like the rejection of Crimea by Wilson, was worked out long before the announcement, and the Poles simply wanted to confront the fact and write off them against the Bolshevism.


              The "Declaration" you mentioned defined the Curzon Line (Poland's eastern border) in 1919 and recommended it to the Poles, but then Poland did not accept it, it wanted more. And she accepted it when she was losing the war and under pressure from the Entente, when she again proposed. The Soviet Republic refused ...
              was established by ALL victorious powers on Potsdam 1945 conferences


              Blame it on the Crimean 1945 Conference. On Potsdam, the WESTERN borders of Poland were determined.
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. Roman 11
          Roman 11 April 12 2016 23: 08
          +1
          Quote: avt
          Budenny, who did graduate from the academy

          True, she did not help him in the war, there was a bit everywhere - and they wrote him off as a consultant to the cavalry, which they later abolished as a type of army, again a problem ......

          Quote: avt
          until his experimental assassins with weapons flew into the penny of the USSR, they just left the Red Army a little without artillery.

          Recoilless guns - a mistake, but since there is a lot of noise and a little specificity around - it's hard to say, you need to carefully study, and not broadcast common common phrases.

          So on the agenda is artillery - in the studio the facts that Tukhachevsky decided to leave the army without guns?
          Quote: avt
          Well, Buonapartist manners

          What kind? Dear, what are the habits? Allow a little more detail?
          Quote: avt
          yes actually with his character the other end was not foreseen.

          How do you know his character so well ?? Were you personally acquainted? The truth is interesting, I always liked to talk about characters, and how they are consistent with the service ...... they say Zhukov was cool, he almost got off to his subordinates, he signed a number of executions - but that did not stop him from taking Berlin.
      2. Roman 11
        Roman 11 April 12 2016 23: 13
        +1
        Quote: inkass_98
        Tukhachevsky, as I understand it, was magnified

        Everyone will draw their own conclusions, okay? They simply destroyed innocent people, and then it turned out that in many ways they were right.
    3. tegezen
      tegezen April 12 2016 08: 58
      -1
      The option is that Tukhachevsky was an inveterate traitor recruited by the Germans.
      1. Roman 11
        Roman 11 April 12 2016 22: 47
        0
        Quote: tegezen
        The option is that Tukhachevsky was an inveterate traitor recruited by the Germans.

        And Lenin that the Germans also recruited ?? And whom only did the Germans not recruit? At least one? For the 41st, it turns out and Stalin? He is sovereign in response. Do not make noise, otherwise without arguments it is somehow sad. Separate remarks are for congresses, but here is a forum.
    4. Roman 11
      Roman 11 April 12 2016 23: 25
      0
      Quote: qwert
      If not for the "genius" Tukhachevsky, then Warsaw would have been taken.

      Pluses what do you earn? Common phrases, where is the data?
      Quote: qwert


      And this mediocrity in Khrushchev and Gorbachev times was exalted as a great commander.

      Just like a commander.
      There are many victories - he studied all his operations, more than others, one defeat. Try to spread the facts ...... you can even count the number of operations. By the way, Budyonny also has a defeat, but they fanned the fame, composed the songs, and in the war it was an incident - he lost everywhere, which Vyazma alone costs, and as a result, 3 hero stars !!!! For what, for the defeat or something ??
      1. Jagermeister
        Jagermeister April 12 2016 23: 39
        0
        Quote: Novel 11
        Quote: qwert
        If not for the "genius" Tukhachevsky, then Warsaw would have been taken.

        Pluses what do you earn? Common phrases, where is the data?
        Quote: qwert


        And this mediocrity in Khrushchev and Gorbachev times was exalted as a great commander.

        Just like a commander.
        There are many victories - he studied all his operations, more than others, one defeat. Try to spread the facts ...... you can even count the number of operations. By the way, Budyonny also has a defeat, but they fanned the fame, composed the songs, and in the war it was an incident - he lost everywhere, which Vyazma alone costs, and as a result, 3 hero stars !!!! For what, for the defeat or something ??

        Victories are mainly over the enemy, obviously weaker.
        But as soon as I had to face a patriotic, motivated army - that's it !!!
        All his talent evaporated as if nothing had happened.
  4. parusnik
    parusnik April 12 2016 07: 24
    +6
    In response to this proposal, the French Foreign Minister said that France was extremely interested in benefiting from modern events in order to finally end Soviet Russia... Since then, little has changed ...
  5. Basil50
    Basil50 April 12 2016 07: 53
    +9
    What today is called * Civil War * only confirms that all this * was started * with one purpose - the destruction of RUSSIA. Any sane person understands this. And it began with the February coup, when * temporary * began to divide RUSSIA for the sake of their foreign masters. The only thing that * temporary * masterly knew how to do is to beautifully justify their actions to destroy RUSSIA. It is surprising that today there are those who believe * prettiness *, and not what these talkers have done. The Poles with their Pilsudski are only part of the mosaic, but in general the picture is so disgusting that a person does not want to believe that it is not some separate * geeks * that can do this, but whole nations and states.
  6. zoknyay82
    zoknyay82 April 12 2016 08: 28
    +8
    Again, the Slav brothers in the forefront. The Buzzards. Poles cry on every corner about Katyn, the plane allegedly shot down by the evil Russians, and there are even more grudges, both real and imaginary. But if, war, God forbid, they will trample on our land like locusts (taking other brothers too).
  7. Jagermeister
    Jagermeister April 12 2016 09: 02
    +6
    The Poles have always rebelled.
    And it’s wonderful that there was Pansky Poland.
    First buffer between the USSR and Germany.
    Secondly, why do we need freeloaders. The Poles did not create anything in the 30th century. As in the last XNUMX years of "freedom". There are no Polish achievements. Everything was done at the expense of Russia.
    1. avt
      avt April 12 2016 17: 39
      +4
      Quote: Jägermeister
      First buffer between the USSR and Germany.

      What is the buffer, to whom, where, and most importantly - WHEN ???? Nothing that, well, if we consider before 1939, this ,, buffer "signed a pact similar to Molotov Ribbentrop with Nazi Germany even before the USSR and together with the Germans fiddled with Czechoslovakia ??? And after the war, the buffer was already the GDR.
  8. qwert
    qwert April 12 2016 09: 25
    0
    I liked how the Poles bred the French. Like you help us to grow at the expense of Russian territories, it is like the Entente and all "progressive mankind" is beneficial. But in reality they thought about one thing - to live on our land. Although, in general, the Poles themselves, as people, are quite good guys, each individually, but how to get together especially in the Diet, the roof goes down for them.

    Quote: avt
    But against Voroshilov’s background, yes, he looked brilliant, roano until the moment when his experimental assassins with weapons flew into the penny of the USSR, and just a little without artillery of the Red Army did not leave. Well, the thirsty manners and his character with the other end and not foreseen.

    Let me disagree. he was complete this Tukhachevsky and divorced from realities. What were his plans for producing 11 000 tanks annually at the beginning of the 30's? And the rejection of reserves? And there was no desire to learn.
    And here is Voroshilov. He defended Leningrad in the most difficult days. Zhukov’s arrival there coincided with the moment of withdrawing from Leningrad a part of the troops for transfer to another front. The Germans did not take active action.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA April 12 2016 12: 36
      +3
      Quote: qwert
      And here is Voroshilov. He defended Leningrad in the most difficult days. Zhukov’s arrival there coincided with the moment of withdrawing from Leningrad a part of the troops for transfer to another front. The Germans did not take active action.

      Zhukov flew to Leningrad on September 13, 1941.
      According to the directive OKV No. 35:
      3. On the north-eastern front, together with the Finnish corps advancing on the Karelian Isthmus, encircle the enemy forces operating in the Leningrad region (also capture Shlisselburg) so that no later than 15.9 a significant part of the mobile forces and formations of the 1st Air Fleet, especially the 8th Air Corps, to release for the Army Group Center. However, first of all, it is necessary to strive for the complete encirclement of Leningrad, at least from the east, and, if weather conditions permit, to conduct a major air attack on it. It is especially important to destroy water supply stations

      In fact, 4 TGr attacked near Leningrad even on September 17th.

      So Zhukov arrived at the most critical moment when von Leeb decided to achieve maximum success before 4 TGy were taken from him.
    2. Roman 11
      Roman 11 April 12 2016 22: 12
      +1
      Quote: qwert
      Tukhachevsky and divorced from realities. What were his plans for tank production worth 11 annually?

      So what? Our tanks are everything. One T-34 riveted more than 50000 !!!!
      Quote: qwert
      And here is Voroshilov. He defended Leningrad in the most difficult days.

      Voroshilov, he had no ear or belly in the army .... This is an ordinary commissar, of whom there were more komdirs - Kubyshev, Antonov-Ovseenko, the same Kirov, Stalin and even the creator of the Great (I’m not afraid of this word) Red Army comrade Trotsky, his layer of commissars Lebedev, Bonch-Bruevich, Muralov, etc. - there were a dime a dozen, but a little sense - the same rebellion of Muravyov .......

      Do you know, the commanders were worth their weight in gold in a civilian, they should know something from the strategy, at least imagine who Leer was, at least freely communicate on tactics, know the purpose of the "Clusium maneuver", and not just read who where went from the "great". This is a whole science, and art comes only after, after a long time. There were few such whites and reds ... Kornilov was, of course, legendary, but not educated, the same Denikin, and Kolchak simply missed the strongest blow in the stomach (after which he never recovered) from Frunze (by the way, naturally gifted and talented ). There was a whole galaxy of the Reds - Tukhachevsky, Shorin, Uborevich, Kork, Shaposhnikov, Snesarev and others who were well organized, trained and improving - I am especially interested in Yakir. In civilian life, an ordinary political instructor-partisan, like other hero-partisans - Blucher, Kashirin, Budyonny, Fedko, Dybenko, etc. And then jerkily raised his horizons, skills, etc. though he had a clever chief of staff in the district, Kuchinsky.

      In general, civilian is more likely a massacre of generals, white generals basically remained the same as they lost the Russian-Japanese, PMV, i.e. fought in the number of soldiers, as later in 41-42. This lord's layer entered the army mainly by the tribal principle, by serving and deserving of the ancestors (Rennenkampf), for getting medals, position, authority, perhaps just from idleness, because reading about Wrangel, Krasnov, Yudenich, the same Pilsudsky is frankly boring, hurray - patriots at best .....

      And Voroshilov is just the curator of the army, a man of Stalin, no more. Judging by his removal after the Soviet-Finnish one, it came to Stalin that such a person did not draw military notes, although 2 years before that he had destroyed the command staff - why should I come to the same conclusion ?? Somehow, it would be scary if he stayed until the 41st. And then Zhukov wrote in his memoirs that before his arrival in Leningrad there was a question about the explosion of enterprises and other important objects of the city and the Baltic Fleet. Here you have the whole Voroshilov - three times the hero of the Union ...... this is not a roll, not a census of history, this is a bitter statement of fact, unfortunately. But truth is always better than singing labels.
      1. Jagermeister
        Jagermeister April 12 2016 23: 49
        -1
        The Reds invented know-how - permanent mobilization.
        That is, new regiments and divisions were trained and formed constantly. In place of the defeated and fled from the rear, new formations were drawn up.
        This allowed by 1921 to have a Red Army of 5 million people.
        The White Guard armies rarely exceeded 100-150 thousand.
        A simple comparison of these numbers reveals the secret to the success of the Reds on the Civil Front.
        The point here is not at all the talents of the Yakirs and Uborevichs.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA April 13 2016 10: 52
          +1
          Quote: Jägermeister
          A simple comparison of these numbers reveals the secret to the success of the Reds on the Civil Front.
          The point here is not at all the talents of the Yakirs and Uborevichs.

          A ram army led by a lion will always defeat a ram army led by a lion.
          What prevented White from mobilizing? What prevented them from properly organizing their army and fighting normally?
          It seems that while the Reds have progressed from a variety of rabble detachments, armed mainly with the idea (each with their own), to shock-fire brigades, armored parts, long-term defense with anti-tank minefields and operational artillery groups, the Whites got stuck in 1918, when motivated An officer detachment of 100-150 men with light rifle was enough to disperse the Red Division.
          It would seem that the whites had every reason for success: drummers and technical units, cavalry, warehouses on the fronts, in Arkhangelsk and Vladivostok, bread, coal, oil, factories in the South, Urals and parts of the Volga region, access to the allies as a theoretically inexhaustible resource, including wunderwafel (tanks, airplanes, new chemical weapons).
          You can understand the uncertainty - they did not want to push anyone away and climb into the mud of politics.
          One can understand the failure of diplomacy, both with the Allies and with the Limitrophs.
          You can understand the discord and squabbles in the manual.
          But for a long time I could not understand why White lost even where they had to win - in tactics.
          The whites had the experience of three years of the Great, and many of the years of the Japanese war. Perfectly saw the mistakes of both the tsarist and the Provisional Government back then. And what did you get?

          Beginning of 1918: “Of one hundred and two people, 60 were frostbite ... I pass the note to the regiment. S. and report. “So much frostbite!”, “Didn’t get canned food ?!”, “Still no warm!” “Kornilov shouts, clutching his head.” “Var, Var, return my legions” - where was the strike regiment created back in May-August 17th?
          December 1918: “The fresh 47th regiment of the 12th division and the brigade of the 6th Ural division suffered heavy losses from frostbite, because, participating in the battle for the first time, they lay for a long time under fire in the snow. Kappel was later accused of misusing them. Rather, the complete unpreparedness of the command staff for fighting in the winter was to blame. ”
          January 1920: “Wet felt boots were immediately covered with ice crust. To avoid pneumonia, the last 10 versts after the river had to be walked in pood boots. General Kappel, pitying his horse, often walked, drowning in the snow just like the others. Shod in fur boots, he accidentally drowned in snow and scooped up water in boots without telling anyone about this ... At this passage Kappel grabbed erysipelas of the leg and then lungs and soon died. ”
          February 1920: General Pavlov loses half his equestrian group frozen out; the cavalry of the South of Russia orders a long life.
          October 1920: “The Russian army, which launched the campaign in the summer of 1920, was not prepared for such a sharp change in the weather and for winter battles. Soldiers in the trenches, not having warm clothes, wrapped themselves in rags and left their positions in the rear villages. Frost caused both the decline in the spirit of the troops and the frostbite of hundreds of soldiers on the front lines. "

          Kornilov - four days later the Reds still hit the headquarters (I wonder how many tens of seconds Kornilov would have lived in the same situation in the WWII?). But the regiment was called.
          (c) E. Belash
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA April 13 2016 10: 22
        +1
        Quote: Novel 11
        In general, civilian is more likely a massacre of generals, white generals basically remained the same as they lost the Russian-Japanese, PMV, i.e. fought in the number of soldiers, as later in 41-42.

        So ... and from the red side the very same officers of the First World War fought. The officer corps of the army of the Empire / Republic divided almost in half - even down to the generals.
        However, as the same Belash wrote, it seems that White’s entire experience of the WWII was simply erased in his memory ...
        Instead of assault teams - walking in the attack with thick chains without a shot, without bending down and not lying down, and the officers are proud of it. My God, many years before this, the last blacks in Africa knew what a machine gun, shrapnel and magazine rifles were. On the WWII fronts, even half a head could not be raised, or looked out into a loophole.
        Since August 14th, when the hands lying under shrapnel were digging shelters, fortification and tactics have developed incredibly. And then "the simplest tactical truths were perceived as a revelation." In the 18th, “trenches and fortifications were not built. The largest that was dug by a hole to protect the shoulders and head, for the most part lay open ”, in the 19th“ our trenches were built extremely remotely ”and in the 20th already on Perekop it was the same. Artillery pulls up and openly shoots at close range, forgetting just everything. Intelligence is such that even in the 18th, the Reds attack suddenly, despite the fact that their plans and radio were read freely. And a constant refrain: “But if the hand of the red machine gunner / gunner didn’t flinch, we would all remain there.”
        In the memoirs and works - a continuous moan over the shots destroyed in the WWI, and rightly so. But whites create officer regiments and St. George battalions, completely not caring for the training of recruits. They drove to slaughter, although often there was time and money. And dreamed of what kind of division could be made from the Academy of the General Staff. Even the Landsknechts would blush from the principle of forming parts by a group of acquaintances.
        1. Roman 11
          Roman 11 April 13 2016 20: 52
          0
          Quote: Alexey RA
          So ... and from the red side the very same officers of the First World War fought. The officer corps of the army of the Empire / Republic divided almost in half - even down to the generals.

          The Reds had a different resource base, both material and technical, and demographic. After a series of suppression of any rebellion, there was order inside. White on the periphery was constantly threatened and sabotaged by the proletariat .... this is the main power of the Reds
          Yes, you noticed correctly - the emigrants made terrible mistakes in tactics. But the main thing in their ranks is not the tsarist generals - which of them commanded the armies and fronts? The main thing is the desire of former officers to make a dizzying career, thanks to the opportunity and the impending material and domestic difficulties of elementary survival. Look at how the Reds' command structure has changed? If the commanders quickly organized the business, successfully fought, distinguished themselves in battles - went on promotion, changed their units, were awarded ..... in fact there are no photos of the commanders, such as Denikin at continuous parades, feasts, prayers, other memorable celebrations or events. Where do monarchists support? Where are the new names? Did the recent officers become at the helm? On the contrary, the estate of the elder aristocrats, who did not succeed in the rhythm of the war, wanted to get even with the mob for selected estates and other pieces of goods - I repeat, take a look at the photos of those times of these countless counts, princes, barons, and other titular nobles.
      3. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA April 13 2016 10: 50
        +1
        Quote: Novel 11
        And Voroshilov is just the curator of the army, a man of Stalin, no more. Judging by his displacement after the Soviet-Finnish one, it came to Stalin that such a person does not draw military notes

        Read the Act of Acceptance of NCOs of 1940. This document can be safely included in the indictment of the case. enemy of the people of Voroshilov - without even changing the wording.
        Quote: Novel 11
        although 2 years before it destroyed the command staff - why why to come to the same conclusion ??

        Destroyed the command structure - it is said loudly. In fact, the repressions of the command staff were not as massive as they like to write about. Yes, and in some of the defendants in those cases, even in the toothless time of late stagnation, the GWP would have been driven by a steam rink.
        For example, according to Blucher - for lying in reports, loss of control, illegal mobilization, interference in the affairs of the NKVD. collapse of combat training, etc.
        Or according to the command of the Air Force: for the systematic concealment of accidents (like children, damn it - all the same, the information went both through the political departments and the NKVD), for the disruption in 1940 of the program for the reconstruction and construction of airfields in border districts (which turned into crowded aircraft 22.06.41 - I had to carry out the program for two years in a year) and for passing a German plane to the capital of the USSR.
        Quote: Novel 11
        And then Zhukov wrote in his memoirs that before his arrival in Leningrad there was a question about the explosion of enterprises and other important objects of the city and the Baltic Fleet. Here you have the whole Voroshilov - three times a hero of the Union

        And what does Voroshilov alone have to do with it? Such decisions are not made locally. For example, the plan for the destruction of KBF ships was drawn up by the People's Commissar of the Navy Kuznetsov during his stay in Leningrad in early September 1941 - and later approved by Stalin.
        Although Kuznetsov himself gives a different version of these events in his memoirs: they say that it was Stalin who gave an oral order to prepare for the destruction, and the NCC itself only after receiving a written order signed by the ITT began to execute this decision. But the trouble is that the Shaposhnikov-Kuznetsov directive of September 13.09.41, XNUMX, approved by Stalin, was not an order to develop a plan for the destruction of ships, but the approval of an already prepared plan.
        1. vvp2
          vvp2 April 13 2016 11: 36
          0
          Quote: Alexey RA
          for the failure in 1940 of the program for the reconstruction and construction of airfields in the border districts (which resulted in crowded planes 22.06.41/XNUMX/XNUMX - had to carry out the program for two years in a year) and for passing a German plane to the capital of the USSR.

          1. Air Force airfields were not built. Their construction was supervised by the NKVD. So "crowding" is Beria's tricks. Nobody canceled the order to relocate the Air Force. So they were based where possible. Socialism, some did not know how many planes there were, others did not know how many airfields there were. Because this is classified information.
          2. Another horror story. Who cares who this junk burned up? The Germans would not have burnt, the Bolsheviks would have burnt during the retreat. This is the Council of Deputies, a secret planned economy, aircraft / tanks made, and gasoline for them, forgot. Because the one who planned the production of gasoline had no idea how many tanks / planes in the country, and how much gasoline they needed. And vice versa.
          Without American gasoline, and most importantly, without an American thermal power plant, aviation in the USSR until the end of the war would have flown in the 1941 regime. Those. very sometimes and exclusively "monsters" such as I-16, I-15 and SB. For cooler cars, gasoline was practically not produced in the USSR before the Second World War.
          3. And what was the fight back? Sambiki did not fly, because there was no high-quality gasoline. And without this there were no powerful motors. And without this, there were no normal sambics. Everything, the circle is closed.
          The antiaircraft guns of the cities for the 40s were of the "g on a stick" level (mainly 3-K). So they used balloons on cables. In the hope that the Germans will get entangled in these cables. In some places, they were probably confused.
        2. Roman 11
          Roman 11 April 13 2016 21: 02
          0
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Read the Act of Acceptance of NCOs of 1940.

          What for? Voroshilov, and so for me the enemy - how could one build an army with only enemies and not get dirty ?? request
          Oh yes there were some more horsemen
        3. Roman 11
          Roman 11 April 13 2016 21: 24
          0
          Quote: Alexey RA
          For example, according to Blucher

          And Blucher, what about Blucher? What the center demanded of him is what he did - after Tukhachevsky's "conspiracy", the whole army turned into a bunch of dolls. The same Zhukov reported on the "cleansing" of the Kiev district from "enemies" at a Stakhanov pace.

          There recently was infa about allegedly an open letter from the military to Stalin on the cessation of the total destruction of the command staff dated 1939, after which the wave passed, but did not stop ...... By the way, Kulik is mentioned among them
          Quote: Novel 11
          Destroyed the command structure - it is said loudly.

          There are official data, one hundredth of which would cause irreparable damage to any other army. Thousands there, terribly ..... Terrible is resting.

          The Kremlin highlander apparently believed that in the event of a war, Darwin’s theory among the military would do its job similarly to the civilian - but he almost miscalculated on his head, to give up so much territory and people almost 30% !! And for the sick Stalinists he is an icon.
  9. Jääkorppi
    Jääkorppi April 12 2016 10: 19
    +4
    We are not Slavs, we are Russian and not what brothers they are to us, but a geopolitical enemy! Puffy Poles! Only after the war, when the Soviet government was established there, normal relations became possible (not counting when part of Poland was part of the Russian Empire)! Of course this does not apply to relationships with ordinary Poles!
  10. alexej123
    alexej123 April 12 2016 10: 28
    +2
    The story of fools teaches nothing. So many times received in the wort, lost their statehood because of their arrogance and ambitions, thanks to Stalin they gained statehood, grew East Prussia and Silesia and ... - Russia is the enemy. When will they calm down?
  11. aleks.29ru
    aleks.29ru April 12 2016 11: 18
    +1
    Surrender to psheks an independent place for re-education !!
  12. iouris
    iouris April 12 2016 11: 22
    +2
    Poland the first is an example of euronazism in recent history. But the Entente uses the Poles only for the subsequent design of its main strike force: the Germans. A hundred years later, we went in a new circle.
    Feeling a chill in the rear, the Poles are rapidly deploying American bases on their territory, screaming loudly about the threat in the East.
  13. vvp2
    vvp2 April 12 2016 11: 39
    -8
    Quote: Technical Engineer
    Snatch a piece of Russia ... Pilsudski's unfulfilled hopes

    It is interesting how this was possible, given the fact that, historically, Russia and Poland had never had a common border before.
    Between them lay Lithuania (the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (ON) inhabited by the Litvins). Today this state does not exist, and its lands are divided between neighbors.
    The Vilnius region, together with the capital Vilna, was first occupied by Poland, then in 1939. The USSR recaptured him from Poland. After the Second World War, he was for some reason transferred to the zhaemites (after leaving RI, they very far-sighted began to call themselves Lithuanians) and today it is called Vilnius. Apparently, the Bolsheviks somehow particularly liked the zhemites, because at the same time as the Vilnius region and Vilna, they also received Memel (Klaipeda). Those. Mr. Dzhugashvili pretended to be a sower at Russian expense (today, in order to travel from the Kaliningrad region to Belarus, you have to beg for a transit from zhemites). For any such merit, the zhemites (Lithuanians, not Litvinians) were so blessed that we will probably never know.
    Part of historical Lithuania was transformed into the BSSR. At the same time, part of the historical lands of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania for the microscopic BSSR was recaptured from Poland later, in 1939.
    With Volyn the same "trick". In the same 1939. "fraternal Ukraine" has increased incl. and at the expense of the former Lithuanian Volyn. To which she historically had nothing to do. However, exactly the same as for Galicia, Transcarpathia, Upper Bukovina and Black Sea Bessarabia.
    Therefore, the Bolsheviks and Pilsudski Derbani Lithuania, but certainly not Russia. The author is new to the story.
    1. reservist
      reservist April 12 2016 16: 15
      +1
      Quote: vvp2
      Russia and Poland historically had never before had a common border.
      Between them lay Lithuania (the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (ON) inhabited by the Litvins).

      And then, who were the other Great principalities settled in?
      And write again that the Russian Federation is populated by Russians (and not Russians, Tatars, Bashkirs, Chechens, Ossetians, Yakuts, Buryats, etc.), and Canada - by Canadians ...
      1. vvp2
        vvp2 April 12 2016 16: 55
        -2
        Quote: reservist
        And then, who were the other Great principalities settled in?

        By people. And ON was populated by Litvin. Do not be embarrassed, these are also people, only residents ON.
        PS. You in vain bring land ON with temporary conquests. This is about the same as drawing the German border in the Moscow Region, Volgograd and the Caucasus.
        1. reservist
          reservist April 12 2016 17: 49
          0
          but does not it bother that the "temporary conquests" were part of the ON for more than a dozen years?
          1. vvp2
            vvp2 April 12 2016 17: 58
            0
            Quote: reservist
            but does not it bother that the "temporary conquests" were part of the ON for more than a dozen years?

            Absolutely. Even a few centuries to adjust history, as can be seen from practice, is often not enough.
            1. reservist
              reservist April 12 2016 20: 18
              +1
              here I agree, because none of my acquaintances Belarusians can not be distinguished from Russian
        2. reservist
          reservist April 12 2016 20: 21
          0
          Quote: vvp2
          ON was populated by Litvin. Do not be embarrassed, these are also people, only residents ON.

          those. Do you agree that Litvin is not a nationality, but "citizenship"?
          1. vvp2
            vvp2 April 12 2016 20: 28
            0
            Quote: reservist
            those. Do you agree that Litvin is not a nationality, but "citizenship"?

            I definitely can’t tell you. But presumably This is true.
    2. reservist
      reservist April 12 2016 16: 52
      +2
      Quote: vvp2
      Russia and Poland historically had never before had a common border. Lithuania lay between them ... Today this state does not exist, and its lands are divided between neighbors.

      it’s already been gone for several centuries ... since the Grand Duke of Lithuania Jagiello (the one whom Mamai didn’t wait on the Kulikovo Field) entered into a union with the Poles and became King of Poland Władysław II ...
      1. vvp2
        vvp2 April 12 2016 16: 57
        0
        Quote: reservist
        The Grand Duke of Lithuania Jagiello (the one whom Mamai did not wait on the Kulikovo field) made a union with the Poles and became King of Poland Wladyslaw II ...

        Learn the story. This state was called the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and later collapsed.
        1. reservist
          reservist April 12 2016 18: 21
          +1
          Teach yourself. Rzeczpospolita did not "disintegrate", but was divided by Russia, Prussia and Austria.
          1. vvp2
            vvp2 April 12 2016 19: 25
            0
            Quote: reservist
            not "disintegrated", but was divided by Russia, Prussia and Austria.

            Do not find fault with the words.
            1. reservist
              reservist April 12 2016 20: 19
              +2
              this is not nit-picking; there is a difference between "it itself disintegrated" and "it was divided from the outside"
              1. vvp2
                vvp2 April 12 2016 20: 22
                +1
                Quote: reservist
                "it itself disintegrated" and "it was divided from the outside"

                However, the context of the conversation was completely different, "ceased to exist." And for whatever reason, it was not meant at all.
                1. reservist
                  reservist April 14 2016 11: 10
                  0
                  those. Does the wording "the state of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth disintegrated in 1795 as a result of its division between Russia, Prussia and Austria" contain no logical contradictions?
    3. andj61
      andj61 April 12 2016 21: 59
      +3
      Quote: vvp2
      Russia and Poland historically had never before had a common border.
      Between them lay Lithuania (the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (ON) inhabited by the Litvins). Today this state does not exist, and its lands are divided between neighbors.

      Actually, they called the Litvins the ancestors of the present Belarusians. The ONs were also inhabited by Russians, Little Russians, Yatvingians, Jemites and other Zhmudins (i.e., the ancestors of the current Lithuanians), Jews (how could they live without them), as well as Karaites (their descendants now live in Lithuania, In my opinion, Vytautas relocated - he took to the service), as well as Poles, and at one time even Moldovans.
      This is if we take the era when Russia still was not Russia, but Russia was a part of several principalities and great principalities, some of which - Kiev, Smolensk, Galitsky - were turned ON and won. And then, later from the Grand Duchy of Moscow, a kingdom was formed at first, and then an empire - and here Poland began to border Russia. The kingdom was bordered by the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (Federation of the Kingdom of Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania), and the empire did not border long - and everything was turned ON and part of the kingdom of Poland, and the rest of Poland was divided by Prussia and Austria.
      1. vvp2
        vvp2 April 12 2016 23: 37
        +1
        Quote: andj61
        Actually, they called the Litvins the ancestors of the present Belarusians.

        And not only. Still Volyn, black Russians, aukshtaytov.
        Quote: andj61
        and then Poland began to border Russia.

        Not Poland, but the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
        1. andj61
          andj61 April 13 2016 07: 57
          +1
          Quote: vvp2
          itata: andj61
          and then Poland began to border Russia.
          Not Poland, but the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

          It is Poland, because by that time, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was fully incorporated into Russia.
          1. vvp2
            vvp2 April 13 2016 09: 53
            0
            Quote: andj61
            it is Poland, because by that time, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was fully incorporated into Russia.

            No, the GDL became part of Russia during the first partition of the Commonwealth (see map a little higher). And Poland became part of Germany. Later it was redistributed, and Poland also became part of Russia.
            1. reservist
              reservist April 13 2016 12: 39
              0
              Well, if instead of Poland we are talking about the Commonwealth, then then, instead of Germany, it would not hurt to mention the Kingdom of Prussia
              1. vvp2
                vvp2 April 13 2016 12: 54
                0
                Quote: reservist
                place of Poland we are talking about the Commonwealth

                Not instead. Those. Speech of the Commonwealth, this is not Poland. One of the components of the Commonwealth was Poland.
                1. reservist
                  reservist April 13 2016 13: 00
                  0
                  so Prussia - not all of Germany ...
              2. The comment was deleted.
    4. reservist
      reservist April 13 2016 12: 17
      0
      Quote: vvp2
      Those. Mr. Dzhugashvili pretended to be a sower for Russian account (today, in order to travel from the Kaliningrad region to Belarus, you must beg for a transit from zhamytes). For any such merits, the zhemites (Lithuanians, not Litvinians) were so blessed that we will probably never know.
      Part of historical Lithuania was transformed into the BSSR. At the same time, part of the historical lands of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania for the microscopic BSSR was recaptured from Poland later, in 1939.
      With Volyn the same "trick". In the same 1939. "fraternal Ukraine" has increased incl. and at the expense of the former Lithuanian Volyn. To which she historically had nothing to do. However, exactly the same as for Galicia, Transcarpathia, Upper Bukovina and Black Sea Bessarabia.
      Therefore, the Bolsheviks and Pilsudski Derbanili Lithuaniabut certainly not Russia.

      so Slavic Lithuania (White Russia) is as much a part of "big" Russia (Russia) as Great and Small ...
      Grand Dukes of Lithuania Olgred, Gedemin and Vytautas at the Millennium of Russia Monument
      1. vvp2
        vvp2 April 13 2016 12: 39
        0
        Quote: reservist
        so Slavic Lithuania (Belaya Rus) is as much a part of "big" Russia (Rus) as Great and Small ..

        Part of White Russia, Slavic, will be more correct. And part of the population has no more Slavic blood than in modern Lithuanians or Latvians.
        When the glade (part of the Proto-Slavs, quarreling and parting with the Rus in ancient times) was shrunk to the west (although there is a version that the Rusych shipped to the east), they freaked out along the way. Including and in a sexy way. And some even along the way remained to live forever. Therefore, the percentage of Slavic blood in the MOST PART of the population of White Russia is quite large. But initially there lived a non-Slavic population. However, it was a very, very long time.
        It is interesting that the "Western Ukrainians" (as Dzhugashvili called the Subcarpathian Ruthenians, that is, the Galicians) are not quite Slavs, as it were. Here is a mine for us back in 1939. put a pockmarked katso. All today's problems with Ukraine are a consequence of that "liberation campaign".
        1. reservist
          reservist April 13 2016 12: 58
          0
          so what if a different people lived in some territory thousands of years ago?
          no one writes Siberians to Asians due to the fact that they live beyond the Urals ...
  14. alicante11
    alicante11 April 12 2016 14: 34
    +3
    That is, after all, how strong the pernicious influence of the West is. Here the Poles, it would seem, are the same Slavs as we are, but it was only necessary to formalize independence and immediately plans of conquest. And how much arrogance and dissatisfied conceit. Here they have outdone their "teachers". And the authorities of the Russian Federation and the oligarchs of domestic bottling want to turn us into such.
  15. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 April 12 2016 20: 26
    +1
    For the maintenance and arming of the interventionists (Poles, Czechs, Yugoslavs, Romanians), as well as the army of Kolchak in Siberia and the White Guards in Ukraine, only France provided in 1919-1920. loans totaling 660 million 863 thousand francs,
    The author apparently did not know or forgot that it was not a loan, it was a delivery against the existing pledges + securities of French companies, the holders of which were very many in Russia until 1917. Let's say more - this is called direct support of allies, because the Bolsheviks acted as direct agents of Kaiser's Germany "for a world without annexations and indemnities" (remember?), and the White Movement proclaimed itself the legal successors of statehood and, accordingly, allies in the Entente.

    Quote: qwert
    If not for the "brilliant" Tukhachevsky, then Warsaw would have been taken. And this mediocrity in the Khrushchev and Gorbachev times was exalted as a great commander.
    I do not agree, Tukhachevsky stood out against the background of other red commanders. Well, he was really smart.

    Quote: Aleksander

    So crazy plans for the World Revolution killed tens of Russian thousands of soldiers and pushed back the reunification of lands for 20 long years, and also gave an occasion to call Russia an aggressor.
    That's it ! As always, some kind of crazy plans - and through Russian blood.

    Quote: avt
    You will laugh, but you were able to learn .... Budyonny, who did graduate from the academy, and Marshal Misha copied more and more with a hunch and aplomb of the same Triandafilov.
    You see, here's the thing - an intelligent person with a good basic education need not even "finish academies." But for an uneducated non-commissioned officer - it is just desirable, if something to boast of a diploma. Or do you really think that Budyonny studied in all seriousness? belay I would look at the fate of someone who would not take his exam ... crying

    Quote: zoknyay82
    Again, the Slav brothers in the forefront.
    With Poland, Russia has the same problem as Sweden and Denmark had - two fraternal peoples, live together, but from their region are the strongest and there is a struggle for leadership.

    Quote: aleks.29ru
    Surrender to psheks an independent place for re-education !!
    Ha, and this is an idea! laughing Oh, and the war will begin there! but ... lest these two fraternal peoples unite in an outburst of "love" for Russia.
    1. Roman 11
      Roman 11 April 12 2016 20: 55
      +1
      Quote: Warrior2015
      Tukhachevsky stood out against the background of other red commanders. Well, he was really smart.

      For Tukhachevsky drinks
  16. Roman 11
    Roman 11 April 12 2016 20: 53
    0
    Thanks to the gross errors of Tukhachevsky
    Which ?? The author is more detailed at this moment. Otherwise, the market. The points - ?
    1. Cartalon
      Cartalon April 12 2016 21: 00
      +2
      Tukhachevsky or rather his intelligence lost the main grouping of the Poles, but on the other hand they did not give him 12 and 1 horse army on a schedule. Everyone over there.
      1. Roman 11
        Roman 11 April 13 2016 21: 47
        0
        Quote: Cartalon
        Tukhachevsky or rather his intelligence lost the main grouping of Poles

        Not lost, but pursued to the point of exhaustion. The main ones gradually shifted south. Tukhachevsky had a plan - to cut off the Danzig supply corridor. Can you imagine that an exhausted army, after a swift offensive, yielding twice as stormy assaulted the fortified city in the forehead? I think no. Everything was stretched and did not keep up, and the center instead of a respite before the assault, on the contrary, made it even more time to take the city to the date of the start of the congress ...... and they did not send reinforcements as promised.

        After 25 years, this was no longer the case, and Warsaw and Berlin were taken from fortified positions, knowingly well prepared.

        And Tukhachevsky’s mistakes during the war were countless. It’s physically impossible to organize operational reconnaissance rushing from Minsk for 1,5 months hundreds of kilometers ..... it was necessary to have moles at the headquarters of the Entente, where they prepared a counterattack.
        1. Cartalon
          Cartalon April 13 2016 23: 18
          0
          You excuse me, as it was written and written in a book, Tukhachevsky conducted a maneuver on the Vistula below Warsaw believing that there were the main forces of the Poles, but they were not there. With the forces that the Reds had, it would be very strange to grasp something else, they generally repeated Schlieffen through one place, they got Marna everything is natural.
  17. Aryan
    Aryan April 12 2016 23: 36
    0
    And in Chisinau, we erected a monument to him ...
    I almost speechless when I saw ...
    And the inscription on the monument "friend of Bessarabia" ...
    PPC
  18. Jagermeister
    Jagermeister April 12 2016 23: 57
    +1
    By the way, Lithuania introduced sanctions against us.
    In connection with the Shavchenko case.
    Surrealism.