Military Review

Rescue repression

151
Arguments that the security officers indiscriminately imprisoned "defenders" are at least groundless.


The question of the scale of repression first appeared in public in the USSR at the beginning of 1938. On January 19, Pravda No. 19 published an informational announcement about the Plenary Meeting of the Central Committee and the resolution “On mistakes of party organizations when excluding communists from the party, formal bureaucratic attitude to appeals excluded from the CPSU (B) and measures to eliminate these shortcomings”. It was then recognized that the repressions of 1937 of the year, with their forced necessity, were in general partly excessive. Since the spring of 1956 after the 20th Congress of the CPSU, the topic of repression has become unhealthy, and since then interest in it has subsided, then deliberately bloated. At the same time, an objective view makes its way with difficulty.

The author’s long-standing article by Professor Alexander Scherba “Prologue of Great Terror.” Repression in the military industry in the 20-e years. " It was mainly about the defense industry of Leningrad, but not only.

Four years have passed, and attempts to whitewash pre-revolutionary Russia and, as a result, denigrating the Soviet are being made more and more actively.

Wretched Tsarist Legacy


Doubt was already caused by the first thesis of Professor Scherba that military production in Russia "due to its strategic importance" allegedly "was always under scrutiny and control by state authorities." From the context it followed that the author had in mind the authoritative institutions of the Russian Empire. He wrote about them already at the beginning of the article that “they invariably sought to ensure the stability of the release of weapons by a variety of measures”.

Was it really so?

Real история military construction in Tsarist Russia in the 18th – 19th and early 20th centuries shows that the periods when it went with the attentive attitude of the state were not long and it was not they who set the trends in Tsarist Russia. Yes, Peter the Great laid the foundation of the Russian military machine so strong that it lasted for decades. The second such period was under Catherine the Great in the best years of Rumyantsev, Potemkin and Suvorov. But Russia, Alexander I, did not fail militarily, primarily due to the efforts of the reformer of Russian artillery, Count Arakcheev, an active figure and, presumably, this is why they were slandered.

Even without deeply studying the history of the military industry in the "first Nikolaev" Russia, which collapsed in the Crimean War, it suffices to recall Leskovsky Levsha’s alarm, who, when he died, begged him to inform the sovereign that the guns were being cleaned with brick and this could not be a mark of shooting.

Particularly vivid disregard for the production side of military problems manifested itself at the beginning of the twentieth century. Firstly, the autocracy did not take up any of the technical challenges of the time - neither the impending transformation of the armed struggle into a war of motors, nor the role of radio communications (Popov’s discoveries led us to the leaders, but the authorities here too had surrendered everything beforehand), nor the significance of massive rifle fire ( machine guns, machine guns) ... Domestic work on tanks и aviation. The famous heavy bomber "Ilya Muromets" during the First World War became outdated. And tsarist Russia didn’t have fighters of its own design at all, nor any significant aviation industry.

Rescue repression


Already at the beginning of the twentieth century, the neglect of R & D (in particular in the production of effective projectiles for naval artillery) and the interests of military production doomed Tsarist Russia to Tsushima’s disgrace, despite the fact that Russian sailors showed courage and valor.

With the beginning of the First World War, a new shameful detail emerged: Russia simply lacked rifles. On the eve of the war, the government order for rifles for our largest weapons factory - Tula - was as follows: in January 1914 - five pieces, in February - as many, in March - six, in April - again five, in May, June, July - one by one (!). This is simply not believed, but the source of information is quite authoritative, it is the tsarist, and subsequently the Soviet, General Vladimir G. Fedorov, a member of the weapons department of the Artillery Committee. In his memoirs, he wrote: “A few days before the declaration of war, the largest plant produces one training rifle per month! That was how the War Department prepared for an armed conflict. ” And Fedorov in 1914 had to go to negotiate the supply of rifles to Japan - to the recent former enemy, and now a fragile ally.

The relation with the Germans in artillery, machine guns and other types of weapons was depressing for us. The thesis of the supposedly exemplary attitude of the tsarist authorities to military production does not stand the test of facts.

And many were against


After the Civil War, the entire economy of the country was in a deplorable state. And although since December 1922, the Russian state received the name Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, it’s only possible to talk about the life of the first half of 20’s as the Soviet half. In the collection of documents "Stalin and Lubyanka. 1922 – 1936 ”a letter was published to Dzerzhinsky of the All-Ukrainian GPU Vasily Mantsev about the situation in his department by the summer of 1922. The Chekists were in poverty, starving, committing suicide, not being able to feed their families, leaving the party - the percentage of communists in the GPU decreased from 60 to 15. Dozens were convicted of raids and robberies, employees of the GPU wrote to Mantsev that they were forced into prostitution, and the only reason was hunger and poverty. Such were the starting conditions of the new system after the devastating Civil War - even in such a delicate area as state security. And they were created not by the Bolsheviks, but by the royal power, which for two centuries had neglected the urgent problems of Russia's development, including in the military-technical respect.

At the same time, a significant part of defense production specialists was even more hostile to the new regime than the old officers. This was explained by the fact that the work of military engineers was always well paid, and they were not happy with the establishment of Soviet power. Accordingly, deliberate sabotage and sabotage became one of the features of economic and industrial life in the USSR from the 20-s and almost before the start of the war, when they were eliminated as meaningful events not only through repression and purges, but also through the fostering of a new - Soviet scientific and technical intelligentsia.

For an objective understanding of the 20 – 30's situation, I refer the reader to the mentioned collection of documents. There is curious information there, for example, about the Donugol case, about Shakhtinsky and other similar ones dating back to the period that Professor Shcherba analyzes.

In the military production of Leningrad and in the defense industry in general, 20 and 30 had to be fought not with pests invented by the OGPU-NKVD, but with the very real subversive work of the old specialists — either purely ideological enemies of the Soviet state, or malignant inhabitants, or paid agents West. However, there were often combinations of these three motifs.

Nevertheless, the repressions were not so significant as to leave the military factories without competent and experienced specialists. Of course, for those times, the loss of any qualified employee could not affect normal operation, however, no enterprise in the USSR — both defense and general industrial — after the arrest of certain specialists did not stop. Often, the opposite happened - work for obvious reasons improved. In addition, part of the arrests was actually of a warning nature, and such “prevention” gave the result. One of the leaders of the actually existing Industrial Party, Professor Ramzin, after condemnation, developed his famous direct-flow boiler, became an order bearer, director of the Thermal Engineering Institute.

Professor Shcherba writes about those years as if everything had already been established in the country, while malicious chekists and party organs, wishing to curry favor, invented mythical conspiracies. A modern reader, especially a young one, can decide that the power in 30-ies was thinking only about one thing - how could it be more sensitive to weaken the defense industry, expelling experienced old specialists from it.

Alas, the repressions were forced, they were caused not by a passion for punitive measures, but by the deaf hostility to socialism of part of the old technical intelligentsia, especially those of its representatives who were under the old regime not only engineers at their enterprises, but also their shareholders and shareholders. There were other incidental factors, but among them there was no maliciousness of the Stalinist leadership. But, speaking of repressions, including in the defense sphere, we must not forget about Trotskyism as a factor not antistalinist, but antisocial, antistate.

Despite the sabotage, the objective and subjective difficulties, military production in the USSR was constantly developing and improving. For the first time since the days of Peter and Catherine, the highest state power directly and with interest led all sides of military production. Including, therefore, the new government could not manage objectively without those or other repressions if it was interested in a solid military rear. The old, not wanting to go to the grave, continually dragged the country back. I had to defend myself.

Unpersuasive "extras"


Repression in military production - a fact. But were they massive and disastrous for the Soviet military production?

Professor Scherba refers to many regulatory documents of the Soviet era, but very stingy in the factual side of things. He argues that in the 20-ies "dismissal from military enterprises of specialists who had once received an education and who had worked hard during the" damned tsarism "became widespread."

Kohl already a historian makes such a statement, then we can expect that next will follow the numbers, percentages, names. However, just with the facts, everything is very modest. And if something is concretized, it looks unconvincing. Let's say a conflict is described with the director of the Red Pilot plant N. A. Afanasyev who was dismissed from the leadership in the middle of the 20s. The plant itself, as of 1925, is certified by Professor Scherba as “a large and modern enterprise of the military industry”. But at that time not a single aviation enterprise of the USSR could be certified in such a flattering manner, since the first major successes of Soviet aircraft building were achieved later.

Or the decision of the People's Commissariat of Labor of the USSR 7 of April 1930 of the year No. 11 / 8 “On temporary secondment of engineers from civilian industry and state institutions to the military industry enterprises” is reported, and the appearance of such a document is explained by repressions. But first, the need for such a measure is evident because of the objective expansion of defense technical work. Secondly, the author of the article himself reports that “110 people were subject to secondment to the military enterprises of Leningrad”. Even if we accept that all of them were going to replace the repressed (which, of course, is not the case), the number does not look impressive considering the scale of the Leningrad defense industry in 1930.

Moreover, I venture to say that even at the end of the 30-s repressions in the defense industry did not have catastrophic consequences for the defense. For various reasons, several hundreds of thousands of specialists turned out to be in detention at the time, and they worked in the system of the Special Technical Bureau of the NKVD and almost all were later released.

On the one hand, the fact that repressions in the defense industry did not have a particularly significant influence is confirmed by the history of pre-war R & D, and on the other hand, by the level and volume of defense production, which reflected the first strike of the Germans and the subsequent turn in the war. The call of the German minds and technology, the Soviet Union took. As a result, he won this war and not at all thanks to the notorious "sharashkas".

For example, it was only after the arrest of the chief engineer of the GUAP NKTP USSR Tupolev (it is significant that his first deputy for the Arkhangelsky design bureau was at large and took part in meetings with Stalin) we began to work hastily on modern combat aircraft. Then separate KB Tupolev, Petlyakov, Myasishchev, Sukhoi were formed, quickly picked up the pace of the Ermolaev, Ilyushin, Yakovlev, Lavochkin, Mikoyan and Gurevich design bats ... We won on their planes.

How to drive empty

The problem of sabotage and sabotage was, unfortunately, significant even before the war itself. Extracting from the note of the NKVD Beria from 17 in January 1941 to Stalin, Molotov and Kaganovich: “At construction No. 56 in the western regions of Ukraine, not a single task of the government and the NKPS was executed ... Ignoring the instructions of the NKPS, I sprayed the construction and ... did not ensure the completion in time of the most crucial construction sites. Meanwhile, Skripkin repeatedly informed NKPS about the successful course of construction ... In the mobilization reserve of roads, instead of the cars required by the 1940 30 plan, there are only 700 18. The plan for locating the stock of wagons on the roads is drawn up in such a way that the concentration areas of empty spaces do not coincide with the areas of mass military loading ... "

But the results of the inspection of non-profit organizations of the USSR in the Air Force of the Moscow Military District in March 1941 are three months before the war. Under the noses of the “victim of Beria”, commander of the Air Force of the Moscow Military District, General Pumpur, and two other “victims,” Generals Smushkevich and Rychagov, 23 percent of pilots did not sit at the helm of combat aircraft. In the 24 Air Defense Division, not a single alarm was announced with the departure of fighters. Almost all parts of the MVO Air Force were incompetent, the machine guns were not shot, the bomb racks were not adjusted, and the alert alert was not tested.

March 3, 1941 was removed by the people's commissar of ammunition Sergeyev (in 1942 he was shot). And on November 11, 1940, the Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks considered the results of a check of his People’s Commissar by a joint commission of the National Control Committee and the NKVD of 55 people. Only a part of the autopsy: “For nine months of 1940, the NKB missed out on the Red Army and the Naval the fleet "4,2 million sets of land artillery shots, 3 million mines, 2 million air bombs and 205 thousand naval artillery shots." With an unfinished technical process, the NKB began mass production of iron sleeves instead of brass, as a result of which one million 117 thousand iron sleeves went into marriage ... The military themselves had to open all this and much more, but the Chekists and civilian state inspectors revealed. But under Sergeyev, the NKB received 963 incoming letters daily and sent 1400. With a shortage of engineers, the People’s Commissariat for the seven months of 800 dismissed 1940 graduates from factories. Among the workers of the People’s Commissariat there were 1226 former tsarist officers, 14 immigrants from the nobility, landowners and kulaks, 70 previously convicted, 31 expelled from the CPSU (b), 17 having relatives abroad, 28 relatives of the repressed, etc. Moreover, in 69 “ in the order of staff reduction ”1940 engineering and technical workers and 166 members of the CPSU (b) were dismissed from the central apparatus.

This was the case a year before the war in one of the industrial defense commissariats. The establishment of order in the NCU immediately affected the security of the troops, although the results of sabotage and sabotage, of course, hiccupped.

Only the outbreak of the war, in which the work of the rear was ensured by the old, even before the revolutionary training specialists, quickly and finally eliminated the wrecking as a feature of the country's economic and social life. In the conditions of the enemy invasion, even internally disloyal old specialists imbued with patriotic feelings and honestly worked with everyone in the name of the future Victory.

Front and rear do not bleed


It would be interesting to have an objective study of the scale of repression in guiding the military economy in 1941 – 1945. I would like to know how much was removed from work, put on trial, sent to a conclusion or even shot by defense industry specialists at the level of shop managers, senior specialists, factory directors, heads of glavkov, people's commissars, their deputies, etc. I think an objective researcher struck by a small, both absolute and especially relative number of somehow repressed commanders of the military economy. Personally, I do not know any of the people who have been shot by the People's Commissar, except the aforementioned Sergeyev, who himself has predetermined his fate.

Regarding the army generals, we have such statistics today - three reputable reference books have been published: “Commanders”, “Komkory” and “Comdivas”. They contain detailed biographies of the commanders of all types of armies of the Red Army, corps and divisions from 22 June 1941 of the year to 9 of May 1945.

Eight strictly decorated thick books give us a completely adequate generalized portrait of the highest generals of the wartime, and I must say, the typical commanders, commander and divisional commander of the Red Army look decent. Even in their surprisingly very small part, which was at various times under the tribunal, most of those who were at fault were able to withstand the test. Many not only regained their shoulder straps, but were even enhanced. Some people, after a criminal record, which is usually from a general who continued to fight with a decrease of one or two stages, were removed after a certain period of time and honored with the title of Hero of the Soviet Union. Under the real terms of the military leaders were units.

And if the level of military repression was extremely low even at the front, it was hardly serious for the leaders of military production. Stalin and Beria often threatened, but only in the case of malicious mischief punished the guilty in reality, giving it to the tribunal. And the objective - a complete roll call, as well as a generalized digital analysis could confirm this fact.

It is necessary to prepare, following the example of the “general’s” reference book for the Red Army, the same major biographical summary of the top leaders of the military economy - from the level of at least deputy directors, chief technologists, chief engineers of defense plants and above.
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  1. gla172
    gla172 April 10 2016 06: 28
    +25
    In modern history, there were no rulers better than Stalin ... and no "repressions" either ....
  2. Aaron Zawi
    Aaron Zawi April 10 2016 06: 39
    -20%
    Yes, Korolev or Tupolev with "enthusiasm" recalled the beatings during interrogations. Especially Korolev, according to whom the repressions destroyed most of the engineers who worked on the missile theme before the war.
    1. testerman
      testerman April 10 2016 06: 48
      +19
      However, this did not prevent the world's first to launch a man into space and leave a reserve for the future.
      Israel probably knows that the American space program cannot do without RD 180 engines, right?
      1. Aaron Zawi
        Aaron Zawi April 10 2016 07: 24
        +1
        Quote: testerman
        However, this did not prevent the world's first to launch a man into space and leave a reserve for the future.

        And what does the genius of Soviet designers have to do with the fact that some of them were killed without any reason?
        1. shasherin.pavel
          shasherin.pavel April 10 2016 14: 29
          +9
          Tell me a country at a time where there would be no repression or terror over its own people, if not over the whole people, then over some part of it. Great Britain that killed millions of Indians? Sasha? with its Cook Lux Klan and repression against the indigenous population? Germany with concentration camps for dissidents? Poland ... which first turned concentration camps into "death camps" and terror? Italy with its colonies in Africa? Romania - which, together with Germany, occupied the territory of Czechoslovakia, or rather Slovakia, which decided to declare its sovereignty, taking advantage of Germany's attack on Czechoslovakia. She was also robbed by Poland, along with Hitler. Whom did he not remember from the democratic countries? Finland ... with its dissenting camps. So why are we being reproached that we lived in a period of complete terror of the European population by our own governments?
          1. Valkokaarti
            Valkokaarti April 10 2016 15: 37
            +1
            Quote: shasherin.pavel
            Call me a country at a time where there would be no repression or terror over your own people

            So tell me at least one civilized country where he was a similar scale of repression in the middle of the 20th century!
            Quote: shasherin.pavel
            Germany with concentration camps for dissidents?

            And if you have not forgotten, the crimes of Nazism were condemned at the Nuremberg trials by the entire civilized community!
            And if you are able to understand this, then the crime of one person is not a "mitigating circumstance" for the crime of the second.
            And it is IMPOSSIBLE to cut off a person's head only on the grounds that "Petya from the neighboring one did that too"!
            Well, besides this, for example, comparing the destruction of Russian farming and other representatives of the Russian people’s elite with the starvation of the same Indians in the English colony (who died of hunger and infections before the British, and then died) is not logical.
            1. IS-80_RVGK
              IS-80_RVGK April 10 2016 15: 51
              +5
              Quote: Valkokaarti
              Well, besides this, for example, comparing the destruction of Russian farming and other representatives of the Russian people’s elite with the starvation of the same Indians in the English colony (who died of hunger and infections before the British, and then died) is not logical.

              Change the training manual this is no longer suitable. smile
            2. 73bor
              73bor April 10 2016 17: 10
              +4
              I can call it the United States, the concentration camps (called workers) bloomed violently, I just am silent about the Indians, the use of combat agents in dispersing demonstrations, and no one condemned it! Russian farming was called peasantry, the decrease in the total number of peasants is due to industrialization!
              1. Valkoiset
                Valkoiset April 10 2016 19: 20
                -7
                Quote: 73bor
                USA, concentration camps (called workers)

                These were WORKING camps, for many who were unemployed during the years of the Great Depression, working there was a blessing.
                Those working there not only ate themselves, but could at least somehow feed their family!
                Quote: 73bor
                I am silent about the Indians

                And keep quiet, in the days of the "Indians" in Russia, serfs at fairs were sold cheaper than greyhound puppies!
                Quote: 73bor
                the use of combat agents in dispersal of demonstrations, and no one condemned this

                Come on?! And what then is not being applied now if "it was not convicted" ?!
                Anyway, didn’t an effective non-lethal weapon exist then as it is now?
                It seems not, but the demonstrators then had more than "lethal" Molotovs!
                Quote: 73bor
                the decrease in the total number of peasants is due to industrialization!

                Calm down already, was general decline in populationcaused by including hunger and repression!
                1. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 April 10 2016 22: 32
                  +5
                  Unlike enlightened Europe, Indians were not planted in zoo cells in Russia, and they did not set prices for scalp in America.
                  1. Valkoiset
                    Valkoiset April 10 2016 23: 34
                    -5
                    Quote: Mordvin 3
                    in Russia, Indians were not planted in the cells of zoos, and the prices for their scalp were not set in America.

                    And you read, read about Russian America, how our local fortresses burned and how we fought with them. Or do you think we just gave Alaska to America?
                    Yes, we could not beat it off even from the local "natives" as expected, about what would have happened if England had entered there and there was nothing to say.
                    1. Mordvin 3
                      Mordvin 3 April 11 2016 00: 30
                      +3
                      Was reading. By the way, there were articles about the Russian-Native American wars here, in VO. You can search.
                2. 73bor
                  73bor April 11 2016 00: 22
                  +2
                  You yourself understand that you are fencing nonsense, "concentration camps" (labor camps) - to work for happiness? It was only from these camps that they put their feet forward, and a few years before that, these camps were tested on the territory of the Primorsky Territory and Arkhangelsk, or our people also considered it fortunate to work there under the supervision of American and British troops! Do not confuse serfdom and the slave trade - these are different things!
            3. 135lm
              135lm April 10 2016 22: 12
              +4
              destruction of "farming"? without collectivization, there would have been no industrialization. And in 41st year "Russian farming" would have been "blessed" with the arrival of wonderful guys from the SS. with an excellent prospect for the improvement of the territory of the USSR according to the OST plan ... and farming in the USA was liquidated under Roosevelt.
              1. Valkoiset
                Valkoiset April 10 2016 23: 37
                -2
                Quote: 135lm
                destruction of "farming"? without collectivization, there would have been no industrialization. And in 41st year "Russian farming" would have been "blessed" with the arrival of wonderful guys from the SS. with an excellent prospect for the improvement of the territory of the USSR according to the OST plan.

                The guys from the SS and so came to us, the guys from Belarus remember.
                And the "improvement" of the USSR would also have been, if not for Lend-Lease and the guys-partisans from Belarus.
                But Trotsky actually proposed collectivization and industrialization, back in 1924, and he competently proposed that he was 100 goals above Stalin by education and intelligence.
                1. Gamdlislyam
                  Gamdlislyam April 11 2016 11: 06
                  0
                  Quote: Valkoiset
                  But collectivization and industrialization actually Trotsky proposed, back in 1924

                  And no one disputes this.
                  That is why Stalin I.V. in 1924 (as in 1925) supported at the plenum of the Central Committee of Trotsky L.D. in the fight against Kamenev LB, Zinoviev G.E., Bukharin N.I. and Rykov A.I. Another thing is that Trotsky L.D. He was engaged in politics, and Joseph Vissarionovich - headed the masses of the USSR in the construction of the state power of the country (including attracted dissatisfied and offended to the construction).
        2. Fitter65
          Fitter65 April 10 2016 15: 00
          +7
          And which of the geniuses was killed? What happened at the same time in the light of democracy? What happened during the days of McCarthyism? Yes, and now what is happening with the indigenous Indians? !! ​​They have the same rights and benefits as in non-democratic Russia have small nationalities? Which the dictator Stalin established for them-they still have not been canceled, but rather much has been added. And where, who, who has geniuses spread rot.
        3. 135lm
          135lm April 10 2016 22: 06
          +3
          and which of them was killed without reason? Why are ALL those who were put on trial in the 30s not immediately guilty? maybe the base was? I am not defending the NKVD, but the same Tukhachevsky should have been hanged for his "innovations" of weapons alone. together with the "inventors".
        4. testerman
          testerman April 11 2016 06: 46
          0
          Facts in the studio please and then we will discuss.
          Assuming that someone suffered from honest people (not like Solzhenitsyn and others like him) from the Soviet government in those bad times ... the time was such a hectic one. But there were those who really did not want well-being for the country, in which case he is an enemy of the people and is subject to punishment. Korolev and Tupolev are a vivid example of this. Sitting on kitsch began to create.
      2. Jagermeister
        Jagermeister April 10 2016 10: 38
        -4
        Quote: testerman
        However, this did not prevent the world's first to launch a man into space and leave a reserve for the future.
        Israel probably knows that the American space program cannot do without RD 180 engines, right?

        I honestly don’t understand.
        And how did the Americans abandon the rover on Mars? Without engines. Or are our engines too?
      3. Valkokaarti
        Valkokaarti April 10 2016 11: 15
        -30%
        Quote: testerman
        However, this did not prevent the world's first to launch a man into space and leave a reserve for the future.

        However, let me remind you of a story when the Soviet leadership was completely tired of the fact that American planes fly with impunity and take pictures of military facilities over Soviet territory, Soviet designers finally finished the S-75 and it was amazing. To intercept one American aircraft were released eight Soviet missiles and 2 fighters, as a result, only 3 missiles took off and one of them shot down its own fighter - just an amazing result, in the best Zhukovsky traditions!
        But the most interesting thing later on, it turned out that the Americans didn’t care, the first American satellites were already flying over the territory of the USSR, taking off military bases from outer space and still not vulnerable to Soviet weapons!
        But then, a year later, we launched the first man into space. This man himself over a glass of vodka then regularly joked that "after the dog, a Soviet officer was launched into space because an officer's life is not much better than a dog's."
        therefore show off this whole of your peaceful space, in the USA, all space and military developments, so as not to put a heavy burden on the budget, immediately found application in civilian fields, from the microwave to the Internet!
        And what useful did the Soviet cosmos give Russian people and humanity ?!
        1. Jagermeister
          Jagermeister April 10 2016 11: 43
          +3
          Quote: Valkokaarti
          Quote: testerman
          However, this did not prevent the world's first to launch a man into space and leave a reserve for the future.

          However, let me remind you of a story when the Soviet leadership was completely tired of the fact that American planes fly with impunity and take pictures of military facilities over Soviet territory, Soviet designers finally finished the S-75 and it was amazing. To intercept one American aircraft were released eight Soviet missiles and 2 fighters, as a result, only 3 missiles took off and one of them shot down its own fighter - just an amazing result, in the best Zhukovsky traditions!

          And what useful did the Soviet cosmos give Russian people and humanity ?!

          Well, firstly, the weapon was new, no one imagined how to use it, so they used a large number of missiles. Always in an air defense, an aircraft is shot down by several missiles, and the more perfect the aircraft, the more missiles are needed.
          They were afraid not so much that the plane would take a picture of something, how much that it would bring something with itself. The spy. A-bomb. Who knows.
          In addition, all the same, from an airplane, photographs are better than from a satellite. And the satellite trajectory is predetermined. It is no accident that Americans are using drones now. Maneuverability and low height.
          Space gave us independence.
          Space is the eyes of photo lenses and rockets.
          And you can screw a ship or a warhead to a rocket, the difference is small.
          1. Valkokaarti
            Valkokaarti April 10 2016 12: 26
            -23%
            Quote: Jägermeister
            no one imagined how to use it

            Rockets? They need to shoot down planes!
            Quote: Jägermeister
            They were afraid not so much that the plane would take a picture of something, how much that it would bring something with itself. The spy. A-bomb. Who knows.

            I know that back in the 45s the United States had the opportunity to wipe the USSR off the face of the earth, and for a long time the USSR had neither mass production of nuclear weapons, nor even delivery vehicles, nor even air defense capable of withstanding the American air fleet.
            But having a scientific understanding of all the shortcomings of the Soviet system, they did not take such a sin into their hearts and decided that the USSR would soon collapse.
            Quote: Jägermeister
            Space gave us independence.

            Which and from whom? Residence permit, that is, the institution of serfdom, he canceled? Or allowed to buy real estate or cars, or travel abroad? What are you talking about now?
            1. alicante11
              alicante11 April 10 2016 14: 48
              +12
              I know that the USA still had the opportunity to wipe the USSR off the face of the earth in 45


              Yes you sho ... ??? !!! Is it eight vigorous loaves like the ones that bombed Hiroshima with Nagasaki? Have you confused the USSR with Luxembourg?

              Residence permit, that is, the institution of serfdom, he canceled?


              Oh, these tales, oh, these storytellers ... Where did you come from so mossy? Registration is not an institution of slavery (as an option - serfdom). Because a person had the opportunity to move to live anywhere before and now and order there. Unless, of course, there was where to live. But it was enough (and now is) even just a hostel, students in the hostel were always prescribed and are prescribed. Registration was necessary only in order to be able to deliver correspondence in the absence of ownership, and also to ensure mobilization.
              1. Valkokaarti
                Valkokaarti April 10 2016 16: 04
                -10%
                Quote: alicante11
                Yes you sho ... ??? !!! Is it eight vigorous loaves like the ones that bombed Hiroshima with Nagasaki? Have you confused the USSR with Luxembourg?

                You yourself do not confuse anything?
                Well, okay, you mean that only from 1945 to 1949 only Mk-3 Fat Man (Nagasaki) was produced more than 100 pieces "forgot", but you look at the globe, the United States is on another continent, it has superiority in aviation (including strategic, which and without nuclear weapons ironing cities) plus nuclear weapons (and delivery vehicles, which the USSR did not have under Stalin, he could only undermine his own bombs) and the fleet.
                Well, what would the USSR do if the United States launched a bombing of its cities from across the ocean? You turn your head on!
                Quote: alicante11
                Because a person had the opportunity to move to anywhere before and now

                Quote: alicante11
                Oh, these tales, oh, these storytellers

                And don’t talk! You yourself are not funny?
                Quote: alicante11
                Registration was necessary solely in order to be able to deliver correspondence in the absence of ownership

                And I’ll also remind you! One of the main differences between slavery and serfdom is that in the institution of serfdom serfs were allowed to have property, and slaves were forbidden to have property! (because the slave is the property itself)
                1. alicante11
                  alicante11 April 11 2016 15: 02
                  +3
                  You yourself do not confuse anything?
                  Well, you're talking about the fact that only from 1945 to 1949 only Mk-3 is Fat


                  I know that the USA still had the opportunity to wipe the USSR off the face of the earth in 45


                  Are you listening to yourself? I'm talking about 45, and you're talking about 49. And everything was ambiguous there. It would definitely be gouging.

                  Well, what would the USSR do if the United States launched a bombing of its cities from across the ocean? You turn your head on!


                  I would bring down flying fortresses. Even the fascists knew how to do it.

                  And I’ll also remind you! One of the main differences between slavery and serfdom is that serfs were allowed to have property in the institute of serfdom, and slaves were forbidden to have property! (because the slave is the property itself)


                  And what does the USSR have to do with it? The Soviet people had PERSONAL property. What is the difference to paint, or do you remember / google yourself?
            2. Alf
              Alf April 10 2016 16: 00
              +6
              Quote: Valkokaarti
              I know that back in the 45s the United States had the opportunity to wipe the USSR off the face of the earth, and for a long time the USSR had neither mass production of nuclear weapons, nor even delivery vehicles, nor even air defense capable of withstanding the American air fleet.

              Even during the development of the Unthinkable and Dropshot, the Americans calculated that, taking into account the materiel and combat experience of the air force pilots, the losses would exceed all limits.
              Quote: Valkokaarti
              they didn’t take such a sin into their hearts and decided that the USSR would soon collapse.

              For a long time I did not hear about the honor, morality and pity of the capitalists. Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Yugoslavia ... How they were probably ashamed.
              1. Valkoiset
                Valkoiset April 10 2016 19: 25
                -2
                Quote: Alf
                Even during the development of the Unthinkable and Dropshot, the Americans calculated that, taking into account the materiel and combat experience of the air force pilots, the losses would exceed all limits.

                Proof, please, why did they calculate such hi
                Although it would be even better to simply pay off Lend-Lease debts honestly and in a manly way, then the Americans would not have to consider anything there.
                Quote: Alf
                Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Yugoslavia ... How they were probably ashamed.

                Oh, but we must be ashamed then! We erased the whole European country into powder, the third Reich was called!
                Just think, Hitlar wanted to destroy "a little" Jews and Russians, Saddam also arranged "a little" racial and religious cleansing, you, as I understand it, do not consider him bad because of this! (I can't damn it)
                1. Alf
                  Alf April 10 2016 22: 37
                  +2
                  Quote: Valkoiset
                  Valkoiset

                  Why are you nicknames changing so often?
          2. Nonna
            Nonna April 10 2016 13: 10
            +6
            Especially for you today, VO published two articles - Space exploration of the USSR and the USA. Sidorov is responsible for California. Enjoy
          3. shasherin.pavel
            shasherin.pavel April 10 2016 14: 37
            +2
            Quote: Jägermeister
            Well, firstly, the weapon was new

            Too new that even the Americans could not afford, since they did not believe that such a person could get on a plane, otherwise they would not have allowed U-2 to fly over the USSR. They themselves used aircraft, and at that time the height for a combat aircraft was not permissible.
        2. avt
          avt April 10 2016 13: 46
          +4
          Quote: Valkokaarti
          . Eight Soviet missiles and 2 fighters were fired to intercept one American aircraft, as a result only 3 missiles took off and one of them shot down its own fighter - it’s simply an amazing result, in the best Zhukovsky traditions!

          My young one is not an all-knowing friend, but what was the official standard for the consumption of missiles in the 70s until now? By the way, the division that fired at Powers overwhelmed him first, but the two did not come down. The result is excellent.
          Quote: Valkokaarti
          But then, a year later, we launched the first man into space. This man himself over a glass of vodka then regularly joked that "after the dog, a Soviet officer was launched into space because an officer's life is not much better than a dog's."

          This is how one should be stinking, so that you can pick up from the garbage dump and prove to everyone that you eat chocolate? Let me guess-Svidomo ykr? Or stubborn white-eyed girl? Well, yes, the campaign is also a collector of skulls on the site.
          1. IS-80_RVGK
            IS-80_RVGK April 10 2016 13: 57
            +2
            Quote: avt
            Or stubborn white-eyed girl? Well, yes, the campaign is also a collector of skulls on the site.

            Yeah, they divorced on the eve of 2017 and in general elections to the State Duma as cockroaches. And interestingly, I found comments on other sites that marked the same trends. It looks like we have such a new state trend. But the bourgeoisie must somehow justify their existence. Why not twist the story for this? smile
          2. Valkokaarti
            Valkokaarti April 10 2016 16: 10
            -11%
            Quote: avt
            Powers firing squad failed him first

            Not the first, but the only one taking off, three missiles were launched, and only one took off.
            The rest started because the target remained on the radar, eventually shot down one of our aircraft, the second miraculously dodged.
            IMHO of course, but some kind of worthless air defense turns out.
            Quote: avt
            This is how one should be stinking, so that you can select

            Nobody picks up anything, Gagarin really said that.
            This incidentally, a popular joke was in the army. Or is your sense of humor bad?
            1. avt
              avt April 10 2016 16: 41
              +2
              Quote: Valkokaarti
              Not the first, but the only one taking off, three missiles were launched, and only one took off.

              Freak, well, finally find yourself quite specific memories of the commander who gave the order to launch - the first left, the rest did not go down.
              Quote: Valkokaarti
              IMHO of course, but some kind of worthless air defense turns out.

              Air defense just turns out to be good - one launch, one defeat. Yes, even on a new, not fully developed complex.
              Quote: Valkokaarti
              Nobody picks up anything, Gagarin really said that.
              This incidentally, a popular joke was in the army. Or is your sense of humor bad?

              On wikipedia. Who are you rubbing a weirdo? From my first job I personally found people who started this and I don’t know from virtual hollows collecting and issuing with aplomb licking chocolate. There was everything and it’s not enough like in movies and jokes in life and alcohol poured like water, but more precisely, for such a light in the eyes of the site, they would have definitely extinguished such a comedian and said that he himself had failed.
              1. Valkoiset
                Valkoiset April 10 2016 19: 37
                -3
                Quote: avt
                the commander who gave the order to launch - the first left, the rest did not come down.

                There were eight missiles, 3 could launch, one was shot down by an American, the second was our plane.
                Quote: avt
                more precisely, such a comedian would have been extinguished for such a light in his eyes on the court and would have said that he himself had failed.

                There is no need to rave, my father is a special forces colonel with awards for the Afghan and ruined health and he joked the same way, I will even say more, I was the first to hear this joke about "an officer's life is not much better than a dog's" from him and when he heard me dissuaded from military school. The canned and pillow commanders are here! There are officers here, whose children grew up without fathers while they lived in the service for days, or just the former Salabons ?!
          3. Valkoiset
            Valkoiset April 10 2016 19: 29
            -2
            Quote: avt
            Or stubborn white-eyed?

            Yes, you local commies for protecting Putin from you and the "gandons" and demoted from general to skull!
            But don't worry, every educated person in the Russian Federation knows perfectly well that a "communist" and a "patriot of Russia" are incompatible things! laughing
            1. Alexey T. (Oper)
              Alexey T. (Oper) April 10 2016 19: 48
              +4
              Quote: Valkoiset
              every educated person in the Russian Federation knows perfectly well that a "communist" and a "patriot of Russia" are not compatible things!

              Misconception. It was the Communists who brought the agrarian impoverished empire, with the 2 / 3 illiterate population, which was actually a semi-colony of Western countries, a supplier of cheap labor and raw materials, to superpowers.
              So it is the Communists who are the real patriots of Russia and the Russian people.
              1. Valkoiset
                Valkoiset April 10 2016 21: 04
                -3
                Quote: Alexey T. (Opera)
                formerly a semi-colony of Western countries, a supplier of cheap labor and raw materials, to superpowers.

                Bullshit, and even brazen!
                The USSR was not a "superpower", but was an ordinary country in the second (and, according to some indicators, third) world, as it is now the DPRK.
                And if it were not for the "petrodollars", then we would eat grass with quinoa as in the DPRK with our then rulers.
                Therefore, if we do not take into account the fact that we have nuclear weapons and missiles that created this very "illusion" of a superpower, then in all respects, from life expectancy and quality of medical education to consumer goods, we were a very mediocre country with a poor population.
              2. Creotip
                Creotip April 15 2016 17: 01
                0
                The Communists under Stalin were Bolsheviks, but the present are not. But the Bolsheviks were inundated for defending the interests of the majority, so that they were patriots, patriots
                1. vvp2
                  vvp2 April 15 2016 17: 07
                  -1
                  Quote: Creotip
                  But the Bolsheviks were inundated for defending the interests of the majority, so that they were patriots, patriots

                  1. Actually minorities, ie yourself, loved ones.
                  2. Patriot comes from lat. Patria (Patria-Rodina). So the patriots of the Bolsheviks were like a bullet from shit. Because they did not defend the interests of the entire Motherland, but only their gang on its territory. That is, speaking in today's language, they were not patriots, but "right guys".
          4. Amurets
            Amurets April 11 2016 00: 07
            +1
            Quote: avt
            My young one is not an all-knowing friend, but what standard for the consumption of missiles was officially in the 70s until now

            On the S-75 SAM three missiles.
        3. shasherin.pavel
          shasherin.pavel April 10 2016 14: 34
          +3
          Quote: Valkokaarti
          from the microwave to the internet!

          microwaves in space? Not every cafe could afford a microwave at that time .. because of its size.
          1. Valkoiset
            Valkoiset April 10 2016 19: 38
            -3
            Quote: shasherin.pavel
            Not every cafe could afford a microwave at that time .. because of its size.

            Computers are also not every office, so what?
        4. Fitter65
          Fitter65 April 10 2016 15: 09
          +7
          Kiss yourself in the chocolate eye of a genius. Those missiles that have gone off the launch pad are considered to be launched !!! Eight only three have flown off !!!!? And you don’t touch the life of the Soviet officer — thanks to the Soviet officers Russia has an army. And I am also involved in this. You are lucky that you are hiding behind a nickname, and you would have met a scammer for your words once and for all, I would have corrected the shtatovka shtatovskaya. ..Or there is a desire to wrestle really, and not vertically Petushara Shtatovskaya? !!!!!
    2. testerman
      testerman April 10 2016 07: 05
      -9
      Hurt? Is an inferiority complex present?
    3. Riv
      Riv April 10 2016 07: 52
      +9
      You either put on panties or remove the cross. :)
      So all the same: Korolev, or Tupolev? And a link to the source would be nice where they complain about it.
      1. shasherin.pavel
        shasherin.pavel April 10 2016 14: 40
        +4
        Well, Tupolev described his sharashka very well when he drove into it by car, and the security guard from the NKVD remained behind the gates - he didn’t have access to the factory.
        1. Alf
          Alf April 10 2016 16: 06
          0
          Quote: shasherin.pavel
          Well, Tupolev described his sharashka very well when he drove into it by car, and the security guard from the NKVD remained behind the gates - he didn’t have access to the factory.

          From the memoirs of Leo Kerber. Tupolev threw a spoon and said loudly, Again, cocoa is cold. Also, the designers wrote in a separate book what they want for lunch tomorrow. By the way, the working day in sharashka at Tupolev was 8 hours. People themselves stayed for 10-11 hours.
    4. avt
      avt April 10 2016 09: 03
      +11
      Quote: Aron Zaavi
      . Especially Korolev, according to whom the repressions destroyed most of the engineers working on the missile theme before the war.

      Where did they come from in Tupolev’s shortage? Well, when at least the list of 200 people, all whom I remembered, Grandfather dashed off?
      Quote: Aron Zaavi
      Yes, Korolev or Tupolev with "enthusiasm" recalled the beatings during interrogations.

      Well, yes - not very beautiful. However, in Israel, officially, with the permission of the court, it is possible to torture a spetsure as of today. Why am I? Yes, the same Tupolev had an open account for his work, and the rocket scientists did not live in poverty either. But somehow it suddenly became clear that for all the costs, and in fact, squandering funds according to the principle is science, this is a way to satisfy one's own curiosity at the expense of the state, according to the formula cost-effectiveness with efficiency was yes-a-aleco not ice. Those rocket men did not fulfill the promises on the URO and Korolev, in particular on the anti-aircraft missiles for air defense, and even splashed with writing denunciations on each other, butted for priority in the creation of the RS. with the idea of ​​a universal weapon, there was a natural crisis in artillery, which the bloody tyrant practically ruled out on his own. So they were taken based on the results of economic activities, well, and then .... In general, tell me at least three times the special services of some country , who trace the first version - sabotage in favor of someone, will not consider and stab the accused at it. You don't have to worry, there is no such country, because with such special services there will be no country, just what kind of bantustan in Africa, well, another Somaliland. good It shows the texture, in contrast to the howls that the “bloody tyrant” got out of bed in the morning and did not wear pants and thought -Who else to kill today? If you continue to deal with a cold head, then the logic of decision-making in the then current time becomes clear.
      1. 97110
        97110 April 10 2016 11: 37
        +7
        Quote: avt
        Where did they come from in Tupolev’s shortage? Well, when at least the list of 200 people, all whom I remembered, Grandfather dashed off?

        Who are you addressing? Mister’s main business in life is to blame Russia without trial in events. Solzhenitsyn wrote, they gave him a Nobel laureate? What questions, uses boldly. The United States itself has blessed!
      2. IS-80_RVGK
        IS-80_RVGK April 10 2016 11: 45
        -1
        Quote: avt
        If we further deal with a cold head, then the logic of decision making in the current time becomes clear.

        This is what the majority would say to the overwhelming majority and it is difficult. Emotions, feelings, moods and other unconscious dominate logic. smile
    5. Amurets
      Amurets April 10 2016 09: 12
      +3
      Quote: Aron Zaavi
      Yes, Korolev or Tupolev with "enthusiasm" recalled the beatings during interrogations. Especially Korolev, according to whom the repressions destroyed most of the engineers who worked on the missile theme before the war.

      Only a few people were arrested at the RNII: Korolev, Langemak, Glushko. All work on the subject of the institute went according to plan. Otherwise, there would have been no Katyusha, Eresov for attack aircraft, launching accelerators. As for Tupolev, I do not beg for Tupolev's merits as a designer, I want to note that Tupolev, while working at the SUAI, made it as difficult as possible for those chief designers who did not to work in his design bureau to access the wind tunnels and aerodynamic research of TsAGI. There are letters of complaint to Stalin from Polikarpova: There are similar complaints from Chizhevsky, Kalinin, Shavrov
      1. V.ic
        V.ic April 10 2016 09: 52
        +2
        Quote: Amurets
        No mindоI give merit

        ... the test word "mАl Still: mindоwhine and mindаThese are different concepts.
      2. Jagermeister
        Jagermeister April 10 2016 10: 34
        0
        Quote: Amurets
        Quote: Aron Zaavi
        Yes, Korolev or Tupolev with "enthusiasm" recalled the beatings during interrogations. Especially Korolev, according to whom the repressions destroyed most of the engineers who worked on the missile theme before the war.

        Only a few people were arrested at the RNII: Korolev, Langemak, Glushko. All work on the subject of the institute went according to plan. Otherwise, there would have been no Katyusha, Eresov for attack aircraft, launching accelerators.

        I don’t know what plan the work was going on.
        Agree that the Katyusha rocket projectile and the launch accelerator (I don’t remember where it was used) look very pale in comparison with the successes of German engineers in the field of rocket science and jet aviation.
        What is a brilliant engineer for a project is probably understandable.
        Often, if you remove such a person, then the topic can be safely closed.
        1. Valkokaarti
          Valkokaarti April 10 2016 11: 26
          -8
          Quote: Jägermeister
          Agree that the Katyusha rocket projectile and the launch accelerator (I don’t remember where it was used) look very pale in comparison with the successes of German engineers in the field of rocket science and jet aviation.

          Well, more than debatable, Katyusha was still much more effective than German missiles in terms of combat use.
          But in general, I am not ashamed to write the truth about our homeland, the creators of the "Katyusha" were killed in the Stalinist repressions, and the main chassis for these "Katyusha" were American trucks, we did not have the opportunity to produce trucks in sufficient quantities for the army!
          And you must definitely talk about it so that it does not happen again. !!!!
          1. Jagermeister
            Jagermeister April 10 2016 12: 00
            +1
            Quote: Valkokaarti
            Quote: Jägermeister
            Agree that the Katyusha rocket projectile and the launch accelerator (I don’t remember where it was used) look very pale in comparison with the successes of German engineers in the field of rocket science and jet aviation.

            Well, more than debatable, Katyusha was still much more effective than German missiles in terms of combat use.
            But in general, I am not ashamed to write the truth about our homeland, the creators of the "Katyusha" were killed in the Stalinist repressions, and the main chassis for these "Katyusha" were American trucks, we did not have the opportunity to produce trucks in sufficient quantities for the army!
            And you must definitely talk about it so that it does not happen again. !!!!

            Then I agree, this should not be repeated.
            As for Katyushas, ​​I do not argue, this is an effective weapon. But I would say all the same low-tech. Well, what is there? Fuel checker, simple body, the inability to conduct aimed fire. Somehow for the work of our entire missile industry is not enough.
            (We made ZiS-6 cars for Katyushas, ​​only they bombed the factory in Gorky and switched to the Studios, also a unique car .... we made tanks, as many tanks as possible, without being distracted by anything else)
            The Germans, however, identified whole areas in science and technology.
            By the way, the Nazis also had such Katyushas. Different types. And with tar and oil. Such a flying barrel. Bach and everything is burned out on half a hectare. But they were fond of the FAU. They had no time for "little things".
            1. avt
              avt April 10 2016 12: 25
              +4
              Quote: Jägermeister
              . But I would say all the same low-tech. Well, what is there? Fuel checker, simple body, the inability to conduct aimed fire. Somehow for the work of our entire missile industry is not enough.

              laughing"Malavato! And I myself am somehow Malavato" laughing In short, once again, study, study and study again "Then you will learn a lot of interesting things and not only about the missile field, where the USSR lost only to Nazi Germany due to quite objective reasons associated with the level of chemical and other industries and a high level of workers, to grief during the liquidation of illiteracy inherited from tsarist Russia and aggravated by the Civil War, the Bolsheviks did not physically have enough time to reach the German level, which was achieved only after the war. killed victims of collectivization, became workers and engineers. And at the same time you will learn Churchill's feedback from the reviewed Soviet weapons and his statements about stationary deployed RS. The criterion cost - efficiency has not been canceled anywhere and in military affairs it is very relevant to yourself. And what is for you, ,, low-tech "in a person with a technical education and even Churchill, call There is admiration for how, without expensive fintiflyushki such as Picatinny bars, an effective, and not outwardly effective result is achieved. Type
              Quote: Jägermeister
              But they were fond of the FAU. They had no time for "little things".

              fool They would have studied, they found out that for SS units they even tried to copy Soviet RSs, and this despite the fact that by the end of the war they had reached a qualitatively new level of weapons, the experience of designing on the models of which, and actually the experience of specialists, subsequently It was implemented in USA and USSR projects. Yes, for the future, like, what if you want to write something about a nuclear project, then first take a look at how these things were in the USSR BEFORE the war near Kharkov in particular. Oh, really be surprised at the spawning of the official version of the start of work on the nuclear program.
              1. Jagermeister
                Jagermeister April 10 2016 23: 52
                +2
                Yes, I studied.
                Do not worry.
                The Germans copied our PCs only stabilized the flight of the projectile due to rotation.
                But I never heard from you what our military missile industry suggested in the 30s.
            2. Valkokaarti
              Valkokaarti April 10 2016 12: 37
              -8
              Quote: Jägermeister
              Then I agree, this should not be repeated.

              Then you will be mined and removed soon!
              Quote: Jägermeister
              But I would say all the same low-tech. Well, what is there? Fuel checker

              Here in the "checker" is a plus! More precisely, in the technology of their manufacture, we were able to establish their mass and cheap production. And therefore, the main advantage of the "Katyusha", as you correctly write, is not in "high technology", but in the concept itself, to throw in 100500 missiles quickly and dump them quickly, it was a simple but ingenious decision, and by the way, its author was Tukhachevsky (as the creator and guardian of the missile ) shot by Stalin.
              Quote: Jägermeister
              But they were fond of the FAU. They had no time for "little things".

              It's not about the little things, they simply did not have the economic opportunity to oppose something like the "Soviet Machine" (although in terms of performance characteristics their systems were superior to ours). They even tried to copy our shells, but failed, our checkers included Central Asian cotton inaccessible to them.
              1. avt
                avt April 10 2016 13: 17
                +3
                Quote: Valkokaarti
                And therefore, the main advantage of the "Katyusha", as you correctly write, is not in "high technology", but in the concept itself, to throw in 100500 missiles quickly and dump them quickly, it was a simple but ingenious decision, and by the way, its author was Tukhachevsky (as the creator and guardian of the missile ) shot by Stalin.

                laughing And Tukhachevsky was a brilliant inventor of a helicopter! Did not know ? Well, when Cheremukhin made a prototype practically with his own hands and before Sikorsky climbed somewhere up 500 meters, Tukhachevsky arrived and enthusiastically curled - you have to do how many thousands now, well, exactly like with Kurchevsky’s guns, and then drove off what it is ingenious to invent in other areas. And what did Stalin do? According to Grandfather’s recollections, you can listen to Zhukovsky’s museum if the liberals haven’t pulled them there yet, Stalin said at the meeting that the direction is interesting and promising, but there’s no manpower and resources to deal with, and if we start, well, let’s cover the topic, we’ll lag behind the opponents, but the backbone retained the engineering and they even made gyroplanes during the war. The truth Cheremukhin with Grandfather remained strong forever and also fell into a sharashka.
                1. Valkokaarti
                  Valkokaarti April 10 2016 14: 02
                  -8
                  Quote: avt
                  And what did Stalin do?

                  I will say what Stalin did, shot Tukhachevsky and another 100500 smart people.
                  Because I understood that a smart person and a person happy with the bureaucratic lawlessness that he arranged were two different people!
                  Quote: avt
                  Tukhachevsky was a brilliant inventor of a helicopter

                  Tukhachevsky really was a man of genius and invented a lot of things:
                  German Blitzkrieg - His Strategy
                  dual-use guns (aht-coma-aht) - his idea
                  aircraft carriers - his idea
                  and no recoil, too, although the recoillessness of the "Kurchevsky system" is really to put it mildly "not a good idea"
                  Well, rockets, of course, and much more! And a lot of other things that other countries have adopted, but not us. Because:
                  Quote: avt
                  the direction is interesting and promising, but there are no forces and means to deal with it

                  Because Stalin immediately had to admit that as a leader he was G ..... and put his party card on the table, since in almost 20 years of his reign, our industry could not meet the army's needs for high-quality weapons. Even Voroshilov wrote in Pravda delicately that "we are still not satisfied with the quality of the equipment produced by our industry."
                  Quote: avt
                  but the engineering backbone kept

                  Yes, I didn’t shoot everyone, someone (like the Queen) managed to miraculously survive in the Berievskiy sharazhki.
                  1. IS-80_RVGK
                    IS-80_RVGK April 10 2016 14: 10
                    +1
                    Quote: Valkokaarti
                    Because Stalin immediately had to admit that as a leader he was G ..... and put his party card on the table, since in almost 20 years of his reign, our industry could not meet the army's needs for high-quality weapons. Even Voroshilov wrote in Pravda delicately that "we are still not satisfied with the quality of the equipment produced by our industry."

                    You, as I suspect, are a brilliant leader. Probably no less than the minister or the head of a large corporation. You would definitely succeed. smile
                  2. Stanislas
                    Stanislas April 10 2016 15: 48
                    +2
                    Quote: Valkokaarti
                    Stalin, shot Tukhachevsky and another 100500 smart people.
                    Because I understood that a smart person and a person happy with the bureaucratic lawlessness that he arranged were two different people!
                    Did Stalin kill all smart people so that they would not be dissatisfied with the "bureaucratic lawlessness arranged by him"? Your poor brain. How mercilessly he was raped if you believe in this bullshit. Or do you think everyone else is so brainless that they are able to believe this nonsense. The Russian bureaucracy has never in history felt such a danger over itself as it did under Stalin. Bureaucrats then understood the word "responsibility" for the first time. That is why they and their liberoid children hate Stalin so much.
                    1. Valkoiset
                      Valkoiset April 10 2016 19: 46
                      -1
                      Quote: Stanislav
                      The Russian bureaucracy has never in history felt such a danger over itself as it did under Stalin. Bureaucrats then understood the word "responsibility" for the first time.

                      You are completely wrong. You compare the NUMBER of bureaucrats-party members under Tsar and Stalin, and then we'll talk!
                      At the end of the 80s, the country was ruled by a party with 25 million partner tickets in hand, from the general secretary to the Komsomol-informer on the dance floor and this system was exactly Stalin who laid down, and Khrushchev and Brezhnev continued without changes!
                      1. Alexey T. (Oper)
                        Alexey T. (Oper) April 10 2016 19: 50
                        +2
                        Quote: Valkoiset
                        At the end of the 80, the country was ruled by a party with 25 million part tickets in hand.

                        Yeah. True, half of the deputies of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR, the main legislative body, were non-partisan.
                      2. Valkoiset
                        Valkoiset April 10 2016 21: 11
                        -1
                        Quote: Alexey T. (Opera)
                        True, half of the deputies of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR, the main legislative body, were non-partisan.

                        Is that true? Maybe there were also elections in the USSR?
                2. Dora2014
                  Dora2014 April 10 2016 16: 12
                  +2
                  Guys! Yes, he is so dense - well, like a Ukrainian! To communicate with him - to lose qualifications!
                3. Alf
                  Alf April 10 2016 16: 24
                  +2
                  Quote: Valkokaarti
                  Tukhachevsky really was a man of genius and invented a lot of things:
                  German Blitzkrieg - His Strategy

                  Does the Triandafill family name say anything?
                  Vladimir Kiriakovich Triandafillov (March 14, 1894 - July 12, 1931) - Soviet military theorist. In his works, he laid the foundations of the theory of deep operation, highlighted the role of the pre-war period and the initial period of hostilities for the successful course of the war as a whole. Many military historians consider Triandafillov "the father of Soviet operational art." Triandafillov's ideas were first used by M.A. Bogdanov in an operation to defeat Japanese troops near the Khalkhin-Gol River in August 1939.

                  Quote: Valkokaarti
                  dual-use guns (aht-coma-aht) - his idea

                  Universal tools Tukhachevsky-technical nonsense. Not a single army in the world still has such weapons. The use of the FLAK-18/36 stemmed from the inability of conventional anti-tank guns to withstand heavily armored tanks.
                  Quote: Valkokaarti
                  aircraft carriers - his idea

                  What aircraft carriers did Tukhachevsky invent?
                  Quote: Valkokaarti
                  Because Stalin immediately had to admit that as a leader he was G ..... and put his party card on the table, since in almost 20 years of his reign, our industry could not meet the army's needs for high-quality weapons. Even Voroshilov wrote in Pravda delicately that "we are still not satisfied with the quality of the equipment produced by our industry."

                  Quote: Valkokaarti
                  Yes, I didn’t shoot everyone. Someone (for example, the Queen) managed to miraculously survive in the Beriev sharazhki.

                  I will answer with the words of Shurik-When you speak, it seems that you are raving.
                  1. avt
                    avt April 10 2016 17: 38
                    +1
                    Quote: Alf
                    Does the Triandafill family name say anything?

                    good laughing This is how hearts are broken among passionate women and youths in love with the congenial commander Marshal Mishu. laughing I confess - I forgot about Triandafilov, but Marshal Misha, as a great strategist, really did little by little at Triandafilov! By the way, Marshal Misha did not finish the academies, well, really, unlike the same Semyon Budyonny the First-Window. And so - why? So a genius. laughing
                  2. Valkoiset
                    Valkoiset April 10 2016 19: 52
                    -4
                    Quote: Alf
                    Does the Triandafill family name say anything?

                    He speaks.
                    Tukhachevsky, as the author of more than a hundred scientific works, unconditionally used and refined the ideas of the predecessors of the same Triandafillos, of course, too.
                    But Tukhachevsky brought all this to a logical conclusion in theory at that time!
                    And I also know about Khalkhin Gol, but that's just the question. Why did the "Stalinist Marshals" know nothing about "Khalkhin-Gol", for whom the strategy and tactics of the Nazis in 41 became a pancake by surprise ?!
                    Quote: Alf
                    What aircraft carriers did Tukhachevsky invent?

                    Being a commander, not an engineer, he certainly did not invent aircraft carriers, he invented a "concept" according to which aircraft carriers should become the striking force of the fleet.
                    1. Alexey T. (Oper)
                      Alexey T. (Oper) April 10 2016 20: 07
                      +1
                      Quote: Valkoiset
                      And I also know about Khalkhin Gol, but that's just the question. Why did the "Stalinist Marshals" know nothing about "Khalkhin-Gol", for whom the strategy and tactics of the Nazis in 41 became a pancake by surprise ?!
                      This is why suddenly such a paradoxical conclusion follows?

                      In the early days of the war, Zhukov organized in the southwest. front counterattacks under the base of the German tank wedge with all available mechanized corps. And it was not his fault that after his departure, Kirponos and Purkaevm imagined that they understand the situation better and gave the order to withdraw the 2 and 5 mechanized corps from the battle and redirect them to the area where the Germans expected them to strike. And the Germans hit in another place.
                    2. Valkoiset
                      Valkoiset April 10 2016 21: 19
                      -5
                      Quote: Alexey T. (Opera)
                      In the early days of the war, Zhukov organized in the southwest. front counterattacks

                      Zhukov organized only meat grinders.
                      Well, it’s not even funny already, having with us a tremendous advantage both in manpower and in technology, as well as in resources and production, for almost 4 years we have received cradles from Germany, which is tiny compared to us.
                      In which Hitler at the beginning of 2MB for 6 years everything was in power, and Stalin was almost like 20!
                      Yes, initially it was clear to everyone, even many from the German generals, that an attack on the USSR was at least a gamble with practically guaranteed loss (especially with the help of the Allies).
                      But they attacked us, and at the same time they beat us, could this be possible with the truly competent leadership of our army ?!
              2. avt
                avt April 10 2016 16: 32
                +2
                Quote: Valkokaarti
                Tukhachevsky really was a man of genius and invented a lot of things:
                German Blitzkrieg - His Strategy
                dual-use guns (aht-coma-aht) - his idea
                aircraft carriers - his idea

                Quote: IS-80_RVGK
                You as I suspect a brilliant leader

                Probably still .... but virtual, or rather Internet, probably plays some kind of strategy overnight.
                Quote: Stanislav
                Poor your brain.

                Not poor, but pristine, free flight of words not burdened by historical facts. Well, if Tukhachevsky inventor aircraft carriers laughing and the surname Matsievich is not familiar to the little man. Yes, what is there some kind of Matsievich, here Tsialkovsky is already a plagiarist and others laughing
                Quote: Dora2014
                ! Yes, he is so dense - well, like a Ukrainian! To communicate with him - to lose qualifications!

                Why how? Yes, again - isn’t it really fun? Well, you really don’t have to go to the concert of comedians and pay money. Know-it-all and so amuse!
                Quote: Valkokaarti
                ! And a lot of other things that were "adopted" by other countries, but not by us.

                He will show you all these countries on the globe of Ukraine.
                Quote: Valkokaarti
                and no recoil, too, although the recoillessness of the "Kurchevsky system" is really to put it mildly "not a good idea"

                laughing good Bullies with aplomb and a brain not clouded by knowledge amuse me. So I got to the ideas of Kurchevsky .... bypassing Ryabushinsky. laughing
                1. Valkoiset
                  Valkoiset April 10 2016 19: 58
                  -2
                  Quote: avt
                  probably some kind of strategy is playing nights to fly.

                  It happens if insomnia. What ?!
                  Quote: avt
                  Well, if the Tukhachevsky inventor of aircraft carriers and a little man, the surname Matsievich is not familiar.

                  For you I repeat: Being a commander, not an engineer, he certainly did not invent aircraft carriers, he invented a "concept" according to which aircraft carriers should become the striking force of the fleet.
                  I think it would be useful for some especially gifted local forum users to read Tukhachevsky.
                  Quote: avt
                  So I got to the ideas of Kurchevsky .... bypassing Ryabushinsky

                  What does Ryabushkin and Kurchevsky have to do with it? You are not aware of the "disadvantages" of Kurchevsky's non-recoil? I admit that they have had a "failure" in practice with non-recoil, although the concept of recoil is correct.
                  1. avt
                    avt April 10 2016 20: 22
                    +2
                    Quote: Valkoiset
                    It happens if insomnia. What ?!

                    laughing Got it! laughing It is necessary to sleep at night and do walking during the day, it helps. But what is noticeable is very well in terms of fool If they slept at night, and in the daytime they got fresh air, then they would not use the Internet for strategy games. Then questions
                    Quote: Valkoiset
                    What does Ryabushkin and Kurchevsky have to do with it?

                    Would not be
                    Quote: Valkoiset
                    Being a commander, not an engineer, he certainly did not invent aircraft carriers, he invented a "concept" according to which aircraft carriers should become the striking force of the fleet.

                    Quote: 1rl141
                    When the first experiments with carrier-based aircraft were carried out in 1910, Tukhachevsky masturbated under the covers.

                    Quote: Valkoiset
                    I think it would be useful for some especially gifted local forum users to read Tukhachevsky.

                    laughing He himself did not happen to fantasy, but specifically Tukhachevsky read, and even lifetime editions. I won’t even guess, as I know by night games, I definitely don’t. Since you need to go to the library for this, and once - the strategy is addictive, there’s not enough night. laughing But judging by the answers, well, when specifically adult uncles, like with Triandafilov, are taken for the gills, the brain went for a walk separately somewhere in the distance. More accurately with night vigil in battles under the leadership of Tukhachevsky, the brain may not return.
                  2. Valkoiset
                    Valkoiset April 10 2016 21: 24
                    -2
                    Quote: avt
                    More accurately with night vigil in battles under the leadership of Tukhachevsky, the brain may not return.

                    In general, as I understand it, switched to natural rudeness? Sorry sad
            3. 1rl141
              1rl141 April 10 2016 20: 02
              +1
              Quote: Valkokaarti
              aircraft carriers - his idea


              That’s how it happens ... Here’s such a woodpecker farting around the world that Tukhachevsky was the inventor and ideological inspirer of aircraft carriers and will carry this stink of wind on fragile minds ..
              When the first experiments with carrier-based aircraft were carried out in 1910, Tukhachevsky masturbated under the covers.
              http://trinixy.ru/32804-pervyj-avianosec-v-mire-17-foto.html
              He must have been the first in everything this way ...
              1. Valkoiset
                Valkoiset April 10 2016 21: 23
                -3
                Quote: 1rl141
                supposedly Tukhachevsky was the inventor and ideological inspirer of aircraft carriers and will carry the wind this stink of fragile minds ..

                For whom I wrote that Being a commander, not an engineer, he certainly did not invent aircraft carriers, he invented a "concept" according to which aircraft carriers should become the striking force of the fleet.
                Why is everything how small it is necessary to chew?
                1. 135lm
                  135lm April 10 2016 22: 45
                  +1
                  this and without Tukhachevsky was known. however, we are a land power. Well, would we ditch resources on AUGs? So what? how would it help us in the war against the Nazis? AUG needs an ocean. and Stalin did not plan Pacific campaigns.
                2. Valkoiset
                  Valkoiset April 10 2016 23: 40
                  -1
                  Quote: 135lm
                  Well, would we ditch resources on AUGs? So what? how would it help us in the war against the Nazis?

                  For example, the development of coastal aviation to begin with, all the same, our seas, not oceans.
                  And so we get "crushed resources" for the classic fleet.
              2. 1rl141
                1rl141 April 10 2016 23: 43
                +1
                Quote: Valkoiset
                he invented the "concept" according to which aircraft carriers should become the striking force of the fleet.

                Yeah, but the Americans and the British did not think of it before that! Well, they’re dumb .. They tried to attach planes to the ships, but it's for fun! Well, like to launch a plane in the sea and see how far it will fly away? And it will break if the dog is with it! He will not kill anyone.
                The British used seaplanes. They could take off from the deck, but got into the water and went up to the deck with a winch. They could scout something, drop the bomb. But not one of them, stsuka, thought of using aircraft carriers as the striking force of the fleet! Well, rams are easy!
          2. V.ic
            V.ic April 10 2016 20: 04
            +2
            I will say what Stalin did, shot Tukhachevsky and another 100500 smart people.
            One person per minute, personally and without interruption, without sleep and rest, this will turn out almost 70 days. Isn’t the dullness of tsifiri visible to himself?
            Tukhachevsky really was a man of genius and invented a lot of things:
            German Blitzkrieg - His Strategy

            Have you heard about Vasily Kiriakovich Triandafilov?
            dual-use guns (aht-coma-aht) - his idea
            Aircraft and infantry are equally bad. Read V. Grabin "Weapon of Victory". He considered the idea of ​​universalism well.
            aircraft carriers - his idea
            I didn’t know that he was also a Moreman in his soul, in half with an aviator! But where do you, my dear, insert yourself: the Russian airplane "Orlitsa", the English aircraft carrier "Argus", the American aircraft carrier "Lengli".
            Well, of course, rockets
            Where is William Congreve before him!
            and much more!
            ... forgot about 60 thousand tanks!
            1. Amurets
              Amurets April 11 2016 04: 22
              +1
              Quote: V.ic
              Aircraft and infantry are equally bad. Read V. Grabin "Weapon of Victory". He considered the idea of ​​universalism well.

              The idea of ​​universalism came from the USA. Experienced guns of the "T" series.
              Quote: V.ic
              Well, of course, rockets
              Where is William Congreve before him!

              Forgot Konstantinov and Zasyadko.
          3. 135lm
            135lm April 10 2016 22: 39
            0
            for what 20 years of rule?))) the secretary general in the 20s didn’t have any power. he and Trotsky could not be planted, shot. Tokma expel from the country. Regarding the quality of weapons, this is to Tukhachevsky. with his madness about hundreds of thousands of tanks and planes. and with the tanks of Tukhachevsky we got 41st. and on t34 (after which he was created) on May 9th happened ...
            1. Valkoiset
              Valkoiset April 10 2016 23: 42
              -4
              Quote: 135lm
              this is to Tukhachevsky. with his madness about hundreds of thousands of tanks and planes.

              I wrote below about 100 thousand tanks, this is a lie.
              Yes, and the T-34 was clearly not as good as you think.
              1. 1rl141
                1rl141 April 11 2016 00: 05
                +1
                Quote: Valkoiset
                Yes, and the T-34 was clearly not as good as you think.

                We do not think, we know - the T-34 was the best tank of that war. Tank winner. And that’s it. On this barrel can be stuck.
                And if anyone has doubts, and the T-34 is not the best tank, then it makes no sense to compare tanks, airplanes, machine guns, because, as it turns out, it is not the best equipment that helps to achieve victory, but something else. the best technique doesn't make sense. The main thing is to have this "something else".
                Or there is so much bad equipment that it would be easy to overwhelm the enemy with the corpses of soldiers, tank bodies, aircraft fuselages, ship and submarine bodies, machine gun barrels, machine guns and pistol clips.
              2. Valkoiset
                Valkoiset April 11 2016 00: 18
                -3
                Quote: 1rl141
                Or there is so much bad equipment that it would be easy to overwhelm the enemy with the corpses of soldiers, tank bodies, aircraft fuselages, ship and submarine bodies, machine gun barrels, machine guns and pistol clips.

                Yes, you are right. This is the "genius" of the T-34, it was the world's first main "economic tank" of a global war, and this was the very "something else".
                But before Zhukov, the Russian army adhered to the Suvorov tradition of "winning not by numbers, but by skill," and I would not wish anyone to spend a pawn on the T-34.
                Sorry, you do not understand this.
      3. Alf
        Alf April 10 2016 16: 16
        +2
        Quote: avt
        but the engineering backbone was preserved and they even made gyroplanes during the war.

        A-7 - Soviet double winged gyroplane with a three-blade rotor, developed by N.I. Kamov. The world's first military gyroplane and the first serial rotorcraft in the USSR.
        The first device was built in April 1934 at the factory of experimental designs at TsAGI. September 20, 1934 the first flight was completed. Testing A-7 ended in December 1935. At the beginning of 1938 it was part of an expedition to remove the group of I. D. Papanin from the drifting ice floe of Greenland. But the Yermak icebreaker, which carried the gyroplane, was ahead of the Taimyr and Murman hydrographic vessels, and the gyro did not manage to take part in the rescue operation.
        In early 1941, the gyroplane passed flight tests for use in aircraft chemical work in the foothills of the Tien Shan. The expedition was organized by Narcomles and Aeroflot to combat apple moths and lasted a month. The autogyro showed efficiency comparable to airplanes, and in some respects surpassed them. The autogyro does not need large platforms for take-off and landing, the air flow from the rotor directed the flow of pesticides strictly down, which, due to the ingress of poisons on the lower surface of the leaves, increased the efficiency of their use.
        With the start of World War II, a separate autogyro squadron was formed out of five A-7-Za squads. The gyro squad, organized by the Main Artillery Directorate, operated as part of the 24th Army in the area of ​​Yelnya and was based at the same time at the airfield in the village of Podopkhai. Pilots of the detachment under the command of senior lieutenant Trofimov made a number of sorties to correct artillery fire and to the rear of the enemy to the partisans. Flights were carried out day and night.
  3. Gamdlislyam
    Gamdlislyam April 10 2016 13: 48
    +1
    Quote: Jägermeister
    We made cars for Katyushas ZiS-6, only the factory in Gorky was bombed, so we switched to the Studios

    Dear colleague Alexander, you were a little mistaken. ZiS-6 cars were produced in Moscow, and Gorky was produced in Gorky.
    Production continued from 1934 to October 1941 (stopped due to the evacuation of the plant and was no longer resumed).
    1. Jagermeister
      Jagermeister April 11 2016 00: 15
      -1
      Yes you are right.
      There was no reason for us to be distracted by the production of trucks, they were supplied in sufficient quantities by the Americans.
      We needed tanks.
  • Dora2014
    Dora2014 April 10 2016 16: 07
    0
    Well, where did you read such nonsense about Katyushas, ​​trucks and the murder of designers ?! Before you arrogantly talk about German missiles, planes and American trucks - remember how the USSR put in a pose and ottolerast Finland, Germany and the rest of Europe! By the way, we Russians have done this procedure with you Europeans more than once. And we will repeat it if necessary. And then again we will allow you to tap out any nonsense on the "keyboard". Until next time ...
    1. Valkoiset
      Valkoiset April 10 2016 20: 01
      -2
      Quote: Dora2014
      how the Soviet Union put in a pose and otolerastil Finland, Germany and the rest of Europe!

      Yeah, I somehow set up such a fucking Finland, filling up their bunkers with corpses (for example, my grandmother, a cousin of a nurse's limbs, froze me, with a practically rear profession!).
      And as far as Germany was "put" from 41st to 44th it is generally better not to remember.
  • 97110
    97110 April 10 2016 11: 42
    +4
    Quote: Jägermeister
    Agree that the Katyusha rocket shell ... look very pale.
    Wehrmacht soldiers would certainly disagree with you. Especially those who survived the Katyusha shelling. Sorry, my grandfather told. Your grandfathers bequeathed to the gloomy German genius in the anus to kiss? Go ahead, it's so European.
    1. Jagermeister
      Jagermeister April 11 2016 00: 10
      -1
      Quote: 97110
      Quote: Jägermeister
      Agree that the Katyusha rocket shell ... look very pale.
      Wehrmacht soldiers would certainly disagree with you. Especially those who survived the Katyusha shelling. Sorry, my grandfather told. Your grandfathers bequeathed to the gloomy German genius in the anus to kiss? Go ahead, it's so European.

      My grandfather fought in Katyusha and reached Prague.
      Where does your grandfather have such knowledge about the shelling of Katyusha? Was he on the other side fought?
      And my grandfather was a sergeant and served from the 43rd to the 45th.
      So tell me, my dear, what else have our rocket "geniuses" riveted to bring victory closer? But nothing.
  • Dora2014
    Dora2014 April 10 2016 15: 54
    +3
    You practically do not know the history of aircraft construction and rocket science in the USSR. You are unlikely to be an engineer by training. In the field of rocket science and jet aviation at that time there were two leading powers - Germany and the USSR. The USSR was two years behind — no more. There were no other countries nearby. You are not familiar with the texture of the issues discussed - it is not interesting with you. Like at a rally ...
  • Alf
    Alf April 10 2016 16: 08
    +1
    Quote: Jägermeister
    Agree that the Katyusha rocket projectile and the launch accelerator (I don’t remember where it was used) look very pale in comparison with the successes of German engineers in the field of rocket science and jet aviation.

    In 1944, there were more designers at Messerschmitt's company than in all USSR design bureaus.
  • Amurets
    Amurets April 10 2016 17: 12
    +2
    Quote: Jägermeister
    I don’t know what plan the work was going on.

    But in vain! The main theme of the RNII was on powder rockets. Liquid work was carried out on an initiative basis.
  • 135lm
    135lm April 10 2016 22: 29
    +1
    look pale not because of "repression". Russia (USSR) was simply lagging behind Germany technologically. and not only Russia. the same USA lagged behind. and Britain. who shot their engineers? and there the Chekists hurried up?
    1. Jagermeister
      Jagermeister April 11 2016 00: 17
      0
      Quote: 135lm
      look pale not because of "repression". Russia (USSR) was simply lagging behind Germany technologically. and not only Russia. the same USA lagged behind. and Britain. who shot their engineers? and there the Chekists hurried up?

      In Germany, the military-technical revolution took place.
      Therefore, she pulled forward.
      1. Gamdlislyam
        Gamdlislyam April 11 2016 11: 35
        0
        Quote: Jägermeister
        The military-technical revolution took place in Germany, and therefore it pulled ahead.

        Dear colleague Alexander, Germany was defeated in WW1, and therefore, in the Treaty of Versailles, it was forbidden both production and research in a number of areas of military equipment (aviation, tanks, navy). The German leadership sent its engineering and design personnel, as well as scientists to neighboring countries, or to those areas where there were no prohibitions (automotive industry, rocket science, etc.)
  • Gamdlislyam
    Gamdlislyam April 10 2016 09: 30
    +6
    Quote: Aron Zaavi
    Yes, Korolev or Tupolev with "enthusiasm" recalled the beatings during interrogations. Especially Korolev, according to whom the repressions destroyed most of the engineers who worked on the missile theme before the war.

    Dear colleague Aron, could you give a link to a source in which there are words of Korolev about "destroyed before the war most of the engineers who worked on the missile theme"?
    About what Tupolev was sitting on this site has been discussed more than once. The general conclusion was that Andrei Nikolaevich had sins, and not small ones.
    Korolev S.P. ended up on the bunk as a result of a power struggle in the RNII between the Moscow clan (former GIRD employees, head SP Korolyov) and the Leningrad clan (former GDL employees, head IT Kleimenov) Sergey Pavlovich Korolev was arrested on the basis of And Kleimenov’s denunciations .T, Langemaka G.E., and Glushko V.P. (all from the Leningrad clan). If the first two were shot later, then Glushko Valentin Petrovich became an academician and the head of a large design bureau in the field of rocket science. However, the relationship between Korolev and Glushko was, to put it mildly, hostile until the last days of Sergei Pavlovich’s life.
    Let's hope that Putin Vladimir Vladimirovich will keep his word, and we, at least in a few years, will be able to look into the criminal cases (which the president promised to declassify), and find out the real reason for the landing, like S.P. Koroleva. and Tupolev A.N., as well as other "innocent" victims. I think there were innocently suffering, and not a little, but until the case is declassified, we can only guess.
    1. Basil50
      Basil50 April 10 2016 10: 53
      +4
      Well, YOU, how can you publish criminal cases * of the innocent * and other sufferers. This is what a blow to the groans * of the democratic public *. The most significant in the SOVIET period of the history of OUR MOTHERLAND was the eviction of the Crimean Tatars, because by law almost the entire male population was to be shot for the atrocities that they REALLY committed, but no, they were exiled, not shot, did not destroy the whole ethnic group. Even close relatives of AHMET KHAN SULTAN were noted in robberies and murders.
      Such an attitude towards war criminals was in the Baltic states, the North Caucasus, the Don. And how did such kindness come about? They all simultaneously became * victims *. And they are still shaking in anger that they dared to punish them.
      1. Valkokaarti
        Valkokaarti April 10 2016 12: 43
        -9
        Quote: Vasily50
        The most significant in the SOVIET period of the history of OUR HOMELAND is the eviction of Crimean Tatars

        An interesting question, but what was the situation with the "small nations" in Ingushetia, in the same WWI?
        Also massively switched to the side of Germany?
        Maybe they organized massively partisan movements "against the Tsar" in the same Baltic states or Ukraine?
        You see, Stalin, entire nations just resettled, and not destroyed, oh, what a good man he is, that he did not begin to destroy entire nations!
        It is a pity he didn’t spare the Russians and still do not know exactly who were more, exiles to Central Asia and Siberia, or who died of starvation and in the camps!
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Valkokaarti
      Valkokaarti April 10 2016 11: 20
      -4
      Quote: Gamdlislyam
      Could you give a link to a source in which there are words of Korolev about "destroyed before the war most of the engineers who worked on the missile theme"?

      Are you kidding me?
      The fact that Korolyov himself was one of the repressed "in the RNII case" and if it were not for his "litigation" earlier with the loss of his position then he would have lost his life instead of the position does not bother you at all ?!
  • 97110
    97110 April 10 2016 11: 31
    +4
    Quote: Aron Zaavi
    Yeah, Korolev or Tupolev

    You and your "winners" of Arab women and children sort it out. And there is no need to repeat the "pearls" of Goebbels and Solzhenitsyn - our Novodvorskys still live with us.
  • shasherin.pavel
    shasherin.pavel April 10 2016 14: 17
    +2
    But not Stalin or the NKVD wrote slander to the designers! Opponents from neighboring KB. One could already read on the topics of the Military Review how mortar designer Shakhurin became famous for eliminating the mortar design bureau and the author of an automatic 30-mm grenade launcher through the NKVD. How can a Chekist not trust the famous designer, the creator of the world's largest mortar in the 120-mm?
    1. Valkokaarti
      Valkokaarti April 10 2016 16: 15
      -2
      Quote: shasherin.pavel
      But not Stalin or the NKVD wrote slander to the designers! Opponents from neighboring KB.

      Blah blah blah! Why after Stalin stopped to denounce think better!
      That is important, that it was Stalin who created the system, according to which one denunciation was sometimes enough to eliminate the objectionable.
    2. Amurets
      Amurets April 10 2016 17: 34
      0
      Quote: shasherin.pavel
      how the mortar designer Shakhurin became famous for eliminating the mortar design bureau through the NKVD and the author of an automatic 30-mm grenade launcher. How can a Chekist not trust the famous designer, creator of the world's largest 120-mm mortar?

      And here is Shakhurin, who had nothing to do with mine-artillery weapons? Maybe Shavyrin? This mortar man. Here is a link to his biography.
      http://www.bratishka.ru/archiv/2004/7/2004_7_8.php
  • Kazakh
    Kazakh April 10 2016 15: 12
    +3
    Quote: Aron Zaavi
    Yes, Korolev or Tupolev with "enthusiasm" recalled the beatings during interrogations.

    But Tupolev did not remember how he spent the money of the people in America?
  • Alexey T. (Oper)
    Alexey T. (Oper) April 10 2016 16: 55
    +5
    Quote: Aaron Zawi
    Yes, Korolev or Tupolev with "enthusiasm" recalled the beatings during interrogations. Especially Korolev, according to whom the repressions destroyed most of the engineers who worked on the missile theme before the war.

    The queen needed to spend money on what they allocated him, those on armaments, and not rush about with his mythical space flight projects. And no one would have touched his finger.

    The same applies to Tupolev: if, instead of refrigerators and washing machines, he bought the drawings and technology of Bostons or B-17s for his wife, then before the war he would become a Stalin Prize laureate, and not sit in a sharag. And so, flaunted for the state light, then worked off the spent, sitting on the state grub.

    But he immediately grew wiser and didn’t allow himself any more such liberties.
  • 135lm
    135lm April 10 2016 21: 59
    +2
    but what has it to do with beating during interrogations? in the glorious liberal 90s blizzards the same from the heart. and during interrogations. and instead of them. and without any Stalin. and in the 30s in yavrop / america policemen loved to press in full. trends are. By the way, are you aware of WHAT Korolev and Tupolev got? they had to leave their "Wishlist" until better times.
  • Aleksandr72
    Aleksandr72 April 10 2016 07: 39
    +5
    Repression, sharagi ... Tupolev, Korolev ...
    For me, in order to answer the question of whether the pre-war repressions saved the Soviet obstructive industry and the country itself, it is enough to look at the results of the activities of these very sharashki. For example, let's take an aviation special technical bureau (OTB), which included four separate design bureaus - or special technical departments (STO): Tupolev, Petlyakov, Myasishchev and Tomashevich (appeared later than others): Petlyakov's design bureau created the "100" aircraft, aka "weaving" - a high-altitude twin-engine fighter, which was converted into the famous Pe-2 dive bomber, Tupolev Design Bureau - high-speed day bomber "103" - the future Tu-2 - pity the best Soviet bomber of World War II, Myasishchev Design Bureau - plane "2 "- long-range high-altitude bomber DVB-102 - the first in the USSR with two pressurized cabins - did not go into the series, because there were no suitable engines in serial production, and the war prevented the revision. KB Tomashevich is a very powerful fighter for its time, armament: 102 motor-gun ShVAK and 1 machine guns UBS, bombs up to 2 kg, excellent protection for the pilot - armored seat back 500 mm, protected tanks, maximum speed (at an altitude of 15 m) - 6000 km / hour (in 610!), the ceiling is 1942 m. The plane is incredibly technologically advanced - it could be produced on a coveyer, and each operation during production lasts no more than 100000 minutes. But with all this - the unfinished engine M-3P (VK-107) KB Klimov, and as a result, the aircraft did not go into production. And this is not to mention the work of aviation sharashka on the revision of existing and in the series of aircraft and aircraft.
    Such examples of the effective work of sharashka can, if desired, be found in each of the areas of the USSR defense industry of that time. And largely thanks to this, the Red Army promptly received the necessary weapons in sufficient quantities (but not always of good quality - for which there are a lot of reasons) and was able to defeat the worst enemy in the history of our country.
    I have the honor.
    1. Jagermeister
      Jagermeister April 10 2016 10: 28
      0
      But the fact that an engineer should work in prison, and not in freedom, is still abnormal.
      1. 97110
        97110 April 10 2016 11: 50
        +2
        Quote: Jägermeister
        But the fact that an engineer should work in prison, and not in freedom, is still abnormal.

        Yes, in the wild it is much more accessible for the Abwehr.
        1. Jagermeister
          Jagermeister April 11 2016 00: 20
          0
          Quote: 97110
          Quote: Jägermeister
          But the fact that an engineer should work in prison, and not in freedom, is still abnormal.

          Yes, in the wild it is much more accessible for the Abwehr.

          Want to say that our engineers are traitors?
    2. Valkokaarti
      Valkokaarti April 10 2016 11: 36
      -9
      Quote: Aleksandr72
      And largely thanks to this, the Red Army promptly received the necessary weapons in sufficient quantities.

      The Soviet army received the necessary weapons in two ways.
      1. The idea of ​​Tukhachevsky on the unification of automobile, tractor and tank production.
      Therefore, when you recall how many tens of thousands of tanks were riveted during the Second World War at tractor plants, remember with the kind word of the innocently shot marshal, whose ideas and work you owe your life!
      And how he was "spread rot" before his death, thinking that he wanted to build 100 thousand tanks a year!
      He planned to build so many of them only in case of war at standardized tractor plants (producing tractors in peacetime), which happened in the Second World War!
      2. Lend-Lease.
      Quote: Aleksandr72
      and was able to defeat the worst enemy in the history of our country.

      Complete nonsense!
      Tales about the "indestructible might of Germany" are Soviet propaganda designed to justify the mediocre and cannibalistic command of the Soviet Army!
      1. Stanislas
        Stanislas April 10 2016 16: 23
        +2
        Quote: Valkokaarti
        Tales about the "indestructible might of Germany" are Soviet propaganda designed to justify the mediocre and cannibalistic command of the Soviet Army!
        And Europe in 2 years, Hitler "pretend" or accidentally captured?
      2. avt
        avt April 10 2016 17: 51
        +2
        Quote: Valkokaarti
        Therefore, when you recall how many tens of thousands of tanks were riveted during the Second World War at tractor plants, remember with the kind word of the innocently shot marshal, whose ideas and work you owe your life!
        And how he was "spread rot" before his death, thinking that he wanted to build 100 thousand tanks a year!

        Only for his beloved Wedge heel, Carden Lloyd-T-27, released from tens of thousands, according to Misha’s joke what to cut and bullet from a machine gun, it was worth shooting as a pest. For squabbles with Ginzburg ... but what am I talking about? Again, feed is not in the horse, this surname will not add anything to the virgin brain. And other people and Anastas Mikoyan in particular were quietly and not noticeably dealing with the supply of equipment for the production equipment.
        Quote: Valkokaarti
        Complete nonsense!
        Tales about the "indestructible might of Germany" are Soviet propaganda designed to justify the mediocre and cannibalistic command of the Soviet Army!

        fool enchanting. Firstly, not just Germany but all of Europe, minus Yugoslavia on the continent and England on the Island. Secondly, on the issue of command, it is clearly visible that the brain is not overloaded with anything Yu, in particular, with the fact that in 4 weeks France met with Yu without Stalin and repression. Well, where and what happened in the USSR 4 weeks after the attack and I don’t ask, except for the next chant, in essence, we don’t hear all one.
        1. Valkoiset
          Valkoiset April 10 2016 20: 20
          -1
          Quote: avt
          Only for his beloved Wedge-heeled Carden Lloyd-T-27 released with tens of thousands, according to Misha’s joke what to cut and bullet from a machine gun, it was worth being shot as a pest.

          Faq T-27 was released a little more than 3000, but by no means 10000.
          And what exactly do you not like about her? Its manufacturers were in the years 31-33, so what exactly was it bad for at that time, considering that the Carden-Loyd Mk VI at that time was considered the best wedge in its class and exported to 16 countries of the world?
          Quote: avt
          Firstly, not just Germany but all of Europe, minus Yugoslavia on the continent and England on the Island.

          Nonsense! The military and industrial potential of most of the occupied countries was extremely insignificant against the background of the German one, and the mobilization potential generally tended to zero!
          Therefore, we fought not with Europe, but with Germany, and not one fought, and the Allies helped us!
          Quote: avt
          France succumbed to Yu without Stalin and repression. Well, where and what happened in the USSR 4 weeks after the attack and do not ask,

          What more would you ask! laughing
          You compare the kilometers traveled by the fascist troops in France and in the USSR!
          And by the way, in the USSR, fascist troops traveled more kilometers per day than in France!
          At the same time, enchantingly "surrounding" and circling!
          At the same time, with the almost complete absence of roads, Russian off-road roads are not French roads for you!
          At the same time, going deeper for more than a thousand kilometers from the "mainland"! Do you think it is very easy to supply and redeploy multimillion armies over such distances, and even through the partisan movement!
          Yes, even Zhukov wrote in his memoirs, and wrote honestly that if it were not for Lend-Lease and partisans, we would not have survived!
          1. Alexey T. (Oper)
            Alexey T. (Oper) April 10 2016 20: 27
            +4
            Quote: Valkoiset
            Nonsense! The military and industrial potential of most of the occupied countries was extremely insignificant against the background of the German one, and the mobilization potential generally tended to zero!

            Yeah. Especially in France, which had the most numerous armed forces in Europe at 1939.

            Quote: Valkoiset
            And by the way, in the USSR, fascist troops traveled more kilometers per day than in France!
            At the same time, enchantingly "surrounding" and circling!
            Yes Yes. True, by the end of July, von Leeb wrote in his military diary that he had 40-50 people left in his mouth. And by November of the 41-th, the shortage on the Eastern Front amounted to more than 340 of thousands of soldiers and officers, and the Germans had to urgently call up the years, which were planned to be called up only in the 43-th year.
            1. Valkoiset
              Valkoiset April 10 2016 21: 34
              -2
              Quote: Alexey T. (Opera)
              Especially in France, which in 1939 had the largest armed forces in Europe.

              I explain. The point is not only in the number of armored vehicles, but also in its speed.
              For example, if you need to hit 10 tanks at each of 4 points within 40 hours between the extremes (sorry for the free explanation), then if you have tanks traveling at a speed of 10 km / h, then you will need 40 tanks (for 10 for each point) and if 40 km / h then only 10 tanks (also 10 for each point).
              Quote: Alexey T. (Opera)
              True, by the end of July, von Leeb wrote in his military diary that he had 40-50 people left in his mouth.

              Somewhere it may have remained, the USSR by this time did not even have whole divisions left. What did you want to say?
              1. IS-80_RVGK
                IS-80_RVGK April 10 2016 22: 31
                +2
                Quote: Valkoiset
                I explain. The point is not only in the number of armored vehicles, but also in its speed.
                For example, if you need to hit 10 tanks at each of 4 points within 40 hours between the extremes (sorry for the free explanation), then if you have tanks traveling at a speed of 10 km / h, then you will need 40 tanks (for 10 for each point) and if 40 km / h then only 10 tanks (also 10 for each point).

                So you do not find that this is your mathematical model of military operations, so to speak, complete dregs? Which nichrome does not explain.
                1. Valkoiset
                  Valkoiset April 10 2016 23: 46
                  -1
                  Quote: IS-80_RVGK
                  complete dregs? Which nichrome does not explain.

                  And what exactly do not you understand?
              2. Turkir
                Turkir April 10 2016 23: 59
                0
                Your comment reminds me of the image of Cadet Bigler ...
                The scheme of the battle of Nerdlingen, like the scheme of the battle of Sarajevo, resembled a football field on which players were placed at the beginning of the game. The arrows indicated where this or that side should send the ball.
                This instantly occurred to Captain Sagner, and he asked:
                - Cadet Bigler, do you play football?
            2. Jagermeister
              Jagermeister April 11 2016 00: 25
              0
              The Germans began a total war in the year 43rd.
              Before that they had a peacetime economy.
          2. avt
            avt April 10 2016 20: 37
            +3
            laughing Check this out ! Really checked? Well, they were accepted into the army as many as 3295 from 1931 to 1934. Well, try to understand how to further understand why they were written off at best for training.
            Quote: Valkoiset
            Nonsense! The military and industrial potential of most of the occupied countries was extremely insignificant against the background of the German one, and the mobilization potential generally tended to zero!

            Nonsense, this is what you are throwing like a broom. And if you cool your head cold and look who, where and what equipment they made and some from 1945 inclusive, what raw materials and where they were brought from.
            Quote: Valkoiset
            You compare the kilometers traveled by the fascist troops in France and in the USSR!

            Tie up with a game of strategy, otherwise the brain fool , life is not a game and it is impossible to reboot in case of loss. The result is not measured in kilometers or even degrees in GMT in the war, but the result is alive or killed. France fell at such times when the USSR had no lend-lease at all. Life in time and space is very different from the Internet. In short - go take a rest, otherwise it already really bears out and Zhukov has slipped. And tomorrow, when you get enough sleep, you will see when the Lend-Lease agreement was signed for the USSR and you will compare the fall dates of France from June 22, 1941.
    3. 97110
      97110 April 10 2016 11: 49
      0
      Quote: Aleksandr72
      whether the Soviet revolution industry saved the pre-war repressions and it is enough for the country itself to look at the results of the activities of these same scarabs.
      But the "landing" certainly protected the "inmates" from assassination attempts and provided them with normal working conditions for those times. You are certainly right about the results. Because even the personal memories of the "inmates" could be opportunistic, in the stream of "revelations" of the XNUMXth Congress.
  • Sargaras
    Sargaras April 10 2016 07: 56
    +1
    Plus to the author, it's good that dust is blown off our story. There is no doubt that many innocent victims have suffered during the repressions and purges. But at the same time, they leaned against the wall and real enemies, as it is written in the article. The famous Stalinist troikas worked, among other things, on purely criminal cases, and it was they who almost completely cut down the entire "fifth column" in our country before the war.
    1. RustamRS
      RustamRS April 10 2016 11: 20
      +1
      Given the fact that if you drip every sinner there.
    2. 97110
      97110 April 10 2016 12: 00
      +3
      Quote: Sargaras
      Undoubtedly, many innocents suffered during the repressions and purges.

      It would be nice to have a list of those you know personally. Excluding crimes like "hit with a beer mug." What are you inserting this apologetic phrase? Does it look more democratic (democracy is the power of the AMERICAN people)? Do you still not understand where this song about "repression" comes from? Without them, Stalin is not bloody enough, not a tyrant. You look, we want to recall Churchill's exploits from Khartoum and the Boer War to Dresden and plans to attack the USSR, Truman atomic bombing of Japan. And so, Stalin is a bloody tyrant (where are the facts? Memoirs of Solzhenitsyn? Tales of Goebbels? Where?), And these cannibals and soul lovers are an example of whiteness and fluffiness. Well, that are from under a star with 6 ends - they cannot do otherwise. The country is also without America - zilch. And why should we pour slop into our homeland? Are you planning to bring them to Israel?
    3. Gamdlislyam
      Gamdlislyam April 10 2016 14: 27
      0
      Quote: Sargaras
      The famous Stalinist triples worked including in purely criminal cases

      Dear colleague, what does it mean that “troika worked including in purely criminal cases”?
      The triples were created in order to consider criminal cases in a simplified manner.
      On July 31, 1937, People's Commissar Yezhov signed the order of the NKVD of the USSR No. 00447, approved by the Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks, “On the operation to repress former fists, criminals and other anti-Soviet elements,” which defined the task of defeating “anti-Soviet elements” and the composition of “operational triples” according to the accelerated handling cases of this kind. The three usually included: the chairman - the local head of the regional (regional, republican) NKVD, members - the prosecutor of the region, territory or republic and the first secretary of the regional, regional or republican committee of the CPSU (b): "... In accordance with this - P R I KAZZOVAU: from August 5, 1937, in all republics, territories and regions, begin an operation to repress former kulaks, active anti-Soviet elements and criminals, in the Uzbek, Turkmen, Kazakh, Tajik and Kyrgyz SSRs, the operation should begin on August 10 from . g., and in the Far Eastern and Krasnoyarsk Territories and the East Siberian Region since August 15, p. g. "
      By a decision of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks No. P65 / 116 of November 17, 1938, judicial trios created in accordance with special orders of the NKVD of the USSR, as well as troika at the regional, provincial and republican police departments of the Republic of Kazakhstan, were eliminated. Cases were referred to the courts or the Special Conference of the NKVD of the USSR.
      1. Gamdlislyam
        Gamdlislyam April 10 2016 14: 48
        +1
        Quote: Gamdlislyam
        Special Meeting at the NKVD of the USSR

        The organ, which can be considered the prototype of the Special Conference, appeared during the reign of Peter I. A special conference, in the form that it had later in the USSR, appeared in the Russian Empire in the 1881th century. This body was called the “Special Meeting at the Ministry of the Interior”, and its creation was approved by Emperor Alexander III in XNUMX.
        In 1922, the "Special Commission" was created. She had the right to sentence to administrative expulsion without resorting to arrest, including from outside the RSFSR, for a term of up to 3 years.
        March 28, 1924. The Presidium of the CEC of the USSR approved a new provision on the rights of the OGPU. A special meeting at the OGPU received the right to sentence to imprisonment in a camp for up to 3 years.
        The “Special Meeting at the NKVD of the USSR” was created by a resolution of the CEC and the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR of November 5, 1934 after the abolition of the Judicial Collegium of the OGPU and existed until September 1, 1953. For 1936, a special meeting examined the affairs of 21222 people.
        During the Great Terror, CCA played a supporting role. The maximum sentence to which the accused CCA could sentence was 8 years. Sentence for long terms of imprisonment and execution of the CCA in this period did not have the right.
        By a resolution of the Council of People's Commissars and the CPSU (b) of November 17, 1938, only cases that could not be considered publicly for operational reasons were allowed to be transferred to the Special Meeting.
        At the end of 1940, the CCA received the right to apply another measure of punishment - the confiscation of illegally acquired property and property used for criminal purposes.
        In November 1941, the CCA, in connection with wartime, was given the power to examine cases of “especially dangerous crimes against order” with sentences up to the death penalty. The CCA exercised the death penalty only during the war. During this time, according to the sentences of the CCA, 10101 people were shot according to official data.
        After the war ended, the maximum sentence by decision of the CCA was 25 years in prison. In the 2nd half of the 1940s, the NKVD CCA (since 1946 - the MGB CCA) was an auxiliary but important means of filing cases against participants in the nationalist movement against Soviet troops in the Baltic republics and in part of Poland liberated by the USSR. In the CCA were cases that were not accepted for production by the courts and military tribunals, even the tribunals of the NKVD troops. This practice developed during the war, on the affairs of traitors to the motherland and accomplices of the Nazis.
    4. The comment was deleted.
  • igorra
    igorra April 10 2016 08: 23
    +2
    Quote: Aaron Zawi
    Yes, Korolev or Tupolev with "enthusiasm" recalled the beatings during interrogations. Especially Korolev, according to whom the repressions destroyed most of the engineers who worked on the missile theme before the war.

    Sir, you don’t have to watch liberal TV shows at night. Or you like Svidomo has its own story. May we ourselves will write our Russian history without you Jews.
    1. Aaron Zawi
      Aaron Zawi April 10 2016 08: 38
      -5
      Quote: igorra
      Quote: Aaron Zawi
      Yes, Korolev or Tupolev with "enthusiasm" recalled the beatings during interrogations. Especially Korolev, according to whom the repressions destroyed most of the engineers who worked on the missile theme before the war.

      Sir, you don’t have to watch liberal TV shows at night. Or you like Svidomo has its own story. May we ourselves will write our Russian history without you Jews.

      What does the series have to do with it? Read the memoirs. And as for the story, it’s not a novel not to compose, but to be studied.
      1. Pre-cat
        Pre-cat April 10 2016 09: 39
        +7
        I have not read something in anyone's memoirs about the beating of Tupolev during interrogations. But about the fact that, being convicted, in a sharashka, after a meeting with "BLOOD" Beria began to defiantly collect cigarette packs from the table (at the meeting they smoked and everyone laid out their cigarettes on the table) - I read. After that, the supply of prisoners was organized !!! smoke on request - with the same cigarettes who ordered! And, yes, all the repressed had problems with the misappropriation of funds allocated for the development of specific tasks. By the way, it was in the 30s that the practice was introduced - the signature of the director of the enterprise on financial documents, without the signature of the chief accountant, is invalid.
      2. avt
        avt April 10 2016 10: 32
        +8
        Quote: Aron Zaavi
        Read the memoirs. And as for the story, it’s not a novel not to compose, but to be studied.

        laughing It is wise, however, especially when you start citing links not for the sake of vopche, but specifically, well, at least in part, they shot everyone. " as it touches the registration card of a very specific person, then it suddenly turns out that it is not from lieutenants, even from the academy, that various professional training courses also emerge.
        Regarding the army generals, we have such statistics today - three reputable reference books have been published: “Commanders”, “Komkory” and “Comdivas”. They contain detailed biographies of the commanders of all types of armies of the Red Army, corps and divisions from 22 June 1941 of the year to 9 of May 1945.

        Eight strictly decorated thick books give us a completely adequate generalized portrait of the highest generals of the wartime, and I must say, the typical commanders, commander and divisional commander of the Red Army look decent. Even in their surprisingly very small part, which was at various times under the tribunal, most of those who were at fault were able to withstand the test. Many not only regained their shoulder straps, but were even enhanced. Some people, after a criminal record, which is usually from a general who continued to fight with a decrease of one or two stages, were removed after a certain period of time and honored with the title of Hero of the Soviet Union. Under the real terms of the military leaders were units.
        That’s even the fact that about 30 thousand were restored in the party too, and besides, they didn’t torture everyone like the same Rokosovsky, but many were simply dismissed from service or sat under house arrest quietly with liberoids. repressions of the command staff, the fact of which is not denied, everyone is written down, well, who went according to criminal articles, who were written off due to illness, or written off by age, are again self-shooting. Old Volkogonovsky reception, but it works to this day, though with the opening of the archive and quite good work is already starting to fail.
      3. 97110
        97110 April 10 2016 12: 05
        +3
        Quote: Aron Zaavi
        Read memoirs

        Read, we do not mind. Your Dayan, Meir and others. Interestingly, they write there about the killed Arab children. There wasn’t, they themselves ... Or how? And report to us, we will get acquainted with interest. And you dumped from Russia. And do not touch it with dirty hands.
    2. Imperialkolorad
      Imperialkolorad April 10 2016 08: 40
      +2
      Quote: igorra
      Sir, you don’t have to watch liberal TV shows at night. Or you like Svidomo has its own story. May we ourselves will write our Russian history without you Jews.

      It will not work because both among those who planted and among those who were planted in the "era of repression" there was an abnormal percentage of those chosen by God.
  • parusnik
    parusnik April 10 2016 08: 57
    +6
    John Scott, an American engineer who worked in the USSR for a long time, left interesting notes, he is not a communist, moreover, he criticized the Soviet system .. writes about wrecking ..
    1. Valkokaarti
      Valkokaarti April 10 2016 11: 42
      -10%
      Quote: parusnik
      writes about wrecking

      Trotsky wrote that the income from the collective farmers' farm as a rule was 3-5 times higher than the income from work on the collective farm.
      That's where the wrecking was, to destroy the elite of Russian farming so that the surviving peasants on collective farms would produce products 3-5 times inferior in value to what they produced on utility pancake dwarf farms !!
      1. Stanislas
        Stanislas April 10 2016 16: 53
        +3
        Quote: Valkokaarti
        Trotsky wrote
        I remember the expression "write like Trotsky" (but you can't write the first word).
        Quote: Valkokaarti
        peasants on collective farms produced products 3-5 times inferior in value to what they produced on subsidiary pancake dwarf farms
        But you pi ... those are even more than your teacher: his "income was 3-5 times higher" (that is, the salary), and your collective farmer's salary has already turned into the value of his products. A worthy student of Trotsky.
        1. Cat man null
          Cat man null April 10 2016 17: 00
          +1
          Quote: Stanislav
          Quote: Valkokaarti
          peasants on collective farms produced products 3-5 times inferior in value to what they produced on subsidiary pancake dwarf farms

          him (Trotsky) "3-5 times higher than income" (that is, salary), and your collective farmer's salary has already turned into the cost of his products

          Stanislav, I already told him this today.

          The guy spits exactly according to the training manual, do not feed the troll, and he dies himself .. yes
        2. Valkoiset
          Valkoiset April 10 2016 20: 26
          -3
          Quote: Stanislav
          I remember the expression "write like Trotsky"

          Initially it sounded ".... it is like Zinoviev" but Stalin trolled Trotsky here too.
          Quote: Stanislav
          A worthy student of Trotsky.

          Thank you laughing and I wrote exactly what I needed to write.
      2. Alexey T. (Oper)
        Alexey T. (Oper) April 10 2016 17: 09
        +4
        Quote: Valkokaarti
        destroy the elite of Russian farming

        Counting the kulaks, who made their capital on usury and trade, is the farming elite only if you very much sort out LSD.

        The kulaks did not engage in agriculture, but grew rich due to the exploitation of their fellow villagers, lending them at extortionate interest (usually the interest was "one or two" - in the spring you took a sack of grain, in the fall you give two) grain, horses as labor force, tools etc. They were also called the world eaters because they lived off the "world" - the community.

        Quote: Valkokaarti
        peasants on collective farms produced products in 3-5 times inferior in value to what they produced on subsidiary pancake dwarf farms !!!
        And this is frank stupidity, easily refuted by statistics.
        Even without the use of machine plowing, solely due to the division of labor, the cost of production produced by collective farms was significantly lower than that of individual farmers. On average, collective farmers spent 25-30% less labor per unit of product. When using technology, this difference increased even more.
        1. Valkoiset
          Valkoiset April 10 2016 21: 36
          -2
          Quote: Alexey T. (Opera)
          Counting the kulaks, who made their capital on usury and trade, is the farming elite only if you very much sort out LSD.

          Oh come on, they were the elite of farming, and who also lent and hired mercenaries, well this is the same business that bothers you?
      3. avt
        avt April 10 2016 17: 56
        +3
        Quote: Valkokaarti
        Trotsky wrote that the income from the collective farmers' farm as a rule was 3-5 times higher than the income from work on the collective farm.

        laughing laughing good Now Trotsky, the founder of the "labor armies", and in fact the ideologue of the Gulag, has become an accomplice of the kulaks! The evening of humor continues. laughing Come on, huta, khutorya-ya-yanka ", burn more! laughingWe are looking forward to new stories about the joint scripture with Trotsky! laughing
        1. Valkoiset
          Valkoiset April 10 2016 20: 30
          -3
          Quote: avt
          Now Trotsky, the founder of the "labor armies", and in fact the ideologue of the Gulag, became an accomplice of the kulaks!

          You should have read the memoirs of political prisoners of those years, but they remembered Trotsky's "camps" with love! But what then became under Stalin, this is horror! And they sat here and there, because Stalin laid the system that once in the camps, he had practically no opportunity to get out of there, and as soon as he was released, he was immediately sent back under further fictitious reasons!
          Quote: avt
          The evening of humor continues.

          Laugh, laugh, the years of Stalin’s repressions have become tragedies for millions of Russian families, and you just have to laugh!
  • timyr
    timyr April 10 2016 09: 24
    +2
    Yes, you also need to remember that the designers wrote and complained about each other. Recently I read how they took weapons before the war. They took PTR Rukavishnikov. Vladimirov writes a complaint to the landfill, such as biased tests. They decide to conduct repeated tests, in response Rukavishnikov writes a response complaint. As a result, the army was left without war before the war. While they rolled letters on each other. Instead of eliminating the flaws.
  • bober1982
    bober1982 April 10 2016 09: 34
    +1
    The author reasonably talks about military construction in tsarist Russia, it is not clear about the famine among the KGB, unknown prostitutes, etc., etc. Article minus, a heap of everything and everything.
  • Pre-cat
    Pre-cat April 10 2016 09: 52
    +2
    The article correctly raises questions about the legitimacy of repression in industry. Most often this topic is covered in a very one-sided way - bloody gebny, etc. And the same "brilliant engineer" Kurchevsky, who was being raised on the shield, was imprisoned for the first time purely for embezzlement. And they spanked me for adventurism - I made a lot of promises and at the same time scored advances for obviously impossible projects. Isn't this sabotage? It is a pity, of course, that little has been written about the military industry and military purchases in tsarist Russia. The embezzlement ruled even then. And the situation of state employees, police officers and security agencies during the NEP and early 30s is a separate interesting topic - they had a hard time.
  • Jagermeister
    Jagermeister April 10 2016 10: 24
    +2
    Absolutely incorrect assessment of the tsarist military industry.
    It is enough to compare the data on armaments for 1914.
    We have as many airplanes, cars in the troops and submarines as there are in the advanced countries of the world. Russia really couldn’t quickly build up its military potential during the war, but the thing is that our country had rich and militarily powerful allies, taking into account which we surpassed the Germans at times.
    By the 17th year, we were 2 times inferior to the Germans in combat aircraft, but taking into account the potential of our actively warring allies in the West, they exceeded Germany by 4 times ...
    1. Cresta999
      Cresta999 April 10 2016 10: 59
      0
      I completely agree with you. The author correctly makes speaking about the exaggeration of the repressions during the reign of Stalin, but makes the mistake of denigrating another segment of history.
    2. avt
      avt April 10 2016 11: 10
      +4
      Quote: Jägermeister
      It is enough to compare the data on armaments for 1914.

      It is enough to look at how various Milyukovs rose on military orders, the American banker Zhivotovsky and ... the Odessa carbonary Gelfand / Pravus, the uncle of Trotsky / Bronstein, and ... ordered those active in the field, and specifically Stalin, to stir up strikes in the Baku oil fields. So, "Study, study and study communism again properly" and not be buggy with outright delirium
      Quote: Jägermeister
      By the 17th year, we were 2 times inferior to the Germans in combat aircraft, but taking into account the potential of our actively warring allies in the West, they exceeded Germany by 4 times ..

      measuring the average temperature in the hospital, galloping jumping along the corridor, I recommend looking at each patient separately and his medical history in particular.
      1. Jagermeister
        Jagermeister April 10 2016 12: 30
        -4
        Quote: avt
        Quote: Jägermeister
        It is enough to compare the data on armaments for 1914.

        It is enough to look at how various Milyukovs rose on military orders, the American banker Zhivotovsky and ... the Odessa carbonary Gelfand / Pravus, the uncle of Trotsky / Bronstein, and ... ordered those active in the field, and specifically Stalin, to stir up strikes in the Baku oil fields. So, "Study, study and study communism again properly" and not be buggy with outright delirium
        Quote: Jägermeister
        By the 17th year, we were 2 times inferior to the Germans in combat aircraft, but taking into account the potential of our actively warring allies in the West, they exceeded Germany by 4 times ..

        measuring the average temperature in the hospital, galloping jumping along the corridor, I recommend looking at each patient separately and his medical history in particular.

        Well, who rose on military orders and who organized strikes where, this is from another opera. Do not stoop to the smallest detail.
        I’ll teach you a lesson in arithmetic about the average temperature in a hospital
        In our country, it is generally accepted that Russia heroically fought with a German in World War I, but she was not alone.
        All the power of the German military machine from the very beginning, was aimed at France, to break, destroy France - the goal of the Reichswehr number one. And therefore, most of the forces, resources, and weapons were primarily directed to the West, while we were dealing with a smaller part. If the Germans had 17 airplanes by the 2000th year, then we were opposed by a smaller part of this armada, and as it doesn’t seem surprising to you, we surpassed the Germans by aircraft ...
        Like this. And you say the average temperature.
        "Damned tsarism" knew how to choose its allies.
        1. IS-80_RVGK
          IS-80_RVGK April 10 2016 12: 59
          0
          Quote: Jägermeister
          And therefore, most of the forces, resources, and weapons were primarily directed to the West, while we were dealing with a smaller part.

          And at the same time, what happened in East Prussia?
          Quote: Jägermeister
          If the Germans had 17 airplanes by the 2000th year, then we were opposed by a smaller part of this armada, and as it doesn’t seem surprising to you, we surpassed the Germans by aircraft ...

          Here are the qualitative characteristics of the equipment you would bring to the heap of how it is with the repair and supply, the qualitative and quantitative composition of the pilots, and of other strategy and tactics of application which are a trifle, of course, but it is advisable to hear. smile
          Quote: Jägermeister
          "Damned tsarism" knew how to choose its allies.

          Yeah, ready to fight to the last Russian soldier. And desperate to always leave Russia with a nose after the results of a war.
          1. Jagermeister
            Jagermeister April 10 2016 16: 44
            0
            Quote: IS-80_RVGK
            Quote: Jägermeister
            And therefore, most of the forces, resources, and weapons were primarily directed to the West, while we were dealing with a smaller part.

            And at the same time, what happened in East Prussia?
            Quote: Jägermeister
            If the Germans had 17 airplanes by the 2000th year, then we were opposed by a smaller part of this armada, and as it doesn’t seem surprising to you, we surpassed the Germans by aircraft ...

            Here are the qualitative characteristics of the equipment you would bring to the heap of how it is with the repair and supply, the qualitative and quantitative composition of the pilots, and of other strategy and tactics of application which are a trifle, of course, but it is advisable to hear. smile
            Quote: Jägermeister
            "Damned tsarism" knew how to choose its allies.

            Yeah, ready to fight to the last Russian soldier. And desperate to always leave Russia with a nose after the results of a war.

            What a you.
            After all, the Allies themselves fought. They suffered losses, both material and human.
            Verdun meat grinder - it is very often compared with Stalingrad. We had no such battles in the First World War.
            Who tried to leave Russia with a nose, I do not know. By the end of the war, Russia was neither legally nor de facto. Russia at that time was crumbling into a dozen "Ukrainians" at war with each other. By making public, in particular, secret agreements.
            You can understand a simple thing. Russia for Germany was secondary. The eastern front was secondary. All the most combat-ready units were in the west. In France.
            Therefore, Germany’s advantage in armaments in the East Theater was not so significant, but the fact that we were defeated in East Prussia is not important, because we won strategically. Paris resisted and our French ally remained in the game. What would happen if France fell scary to think. Then we would have got the 41st year, but only in the 14th.
            1. IS-80_RVGK
              IS-80_RVGK April 10 2016 17: 06
              +2
              Quote: Jägermeister
              What a you.
              After all, the Allies themselves fought. They suffered losses, both material and human.
              Verdun meat grinder - it is very often compared with Stalingrad. We had no such battles in the First World War.
              Who tried to leave Russia with a nose, I do not know. By the end of the war, Russia was neither legally nor de facto. Russia at that time was crumbling into a dozen "Ukrainians" at war with each other. By making public, in particular, secret agreements.
              You can understand a simple thing. Russia for Germany was secondary. The eastern front was secondary. All the most combat-ready units were in the west. In France.
              Therefore, Germany’s advantage in armaments in the East Theater was not so significant, but the fact that we were defeated in East Prussia is not important, because we won strategically. Paris resisted and our French ally remained in the game. What would happen if France fell scary to think. Then we would have got the 41st year, but only in the 14th.

              Why are you telling me all this? How does all this justify the catastrophic lag of our industry from that of England, France, and Germany? The total lag in education, medicine, agriculture? Will you tell my grandson peasants for a wonderful life in the Russian Empire?
              1. Jagermeister
                Jagermeister April 11 2016 00: 48
                -1
                Yes, I do not justify anything.
                I, as the grandson of the peasants, try to convey to you that the peasants under the king lived better.
                Russia overcame the backlog very quickly. Industrial growth was like China now
                1. IS-80_RVGK
                  IS-80_RVGK April 11 2016 08: 53
                  +2
                  Quote: Jägermeister
                  Yes, I do not justify anything.
                  I, as the grandson of the peasants, trying to convey to you that the peasants under the king lived better.

                  No, not better.
                  Quote: Jägermeister
                  Russia overcame the backlog very quickly.

                  Not fast enough. And the experience of Russian-Japanese and World War I has clearly shown this.
                  Quote: Jägermeister
                  Industrial growth was like China now

                  Does this mean like in China during the economic crisis? smile
                  You compare with the growth in the USSR. It was not for nothing that Stalin spoke about the speedy overcoming of the backlog and that otherwise they would crush us. Do you not understand that we are always enemies of the West? We are carriers of another competing ideology, which means there will always be a struggle. They will always strive to reformat the world for their system. And we are under our own. smile And what should I say, they are quite successfully engaged.
        2. avt
          avt April 10 2016 13: 03
          0
          Quote: Jägermeister
          I’ll teach you a lesson in arithmetic about the average temperature in a hospital

          fool Even here you don’t pull on the teacher from ward No. 6. Why? Yes, because even to determine the temperature, even if not for an individual patient, but the average, it is necessary in degrees, not in grams, and preferably in Celsius, and not in GMT.
          Quote: Jägermeister
          If the Germans had 17 airplanes by the 2000th year, then we were opposed by a smaller part of this armada, and as it doesn’t seem surprising to you, we surpassed the Germans by aircraft ...

          "How much to measure in grams!?" Specifically, the layout of the number of airplanes is weak to bring? And even in comparison, how many, which ones, in what condition? Yes, just look at your leisure yourself. Or stupidly put Voisin and Albatross on the same board and cover with Farman thirty? wassat
          Quote: Jägermeister
          as it does not seem surprising to you

          It will not seem surprising to me the stupidity of ignorance, since the question of the same squadron, Muromtsev was interested, and due to the "lack" in the form of higher technical education, he was curious about the technical characteristics of airplanes of those years.
          Quote: Jägermeister
          "Damned tsarism" knew how to choose its allies.

          When you get up from your head to your feet, you realize that the Entente, represented by the Franks and the shaven, chose allies for itself, and it was because of French credits that the Frankish squadron came before the war, and Nikolashka, the Marseillaise, listened to all the aspada of the Akhfitzer at attention. If you don’t believe me, then here’s your homework - to find out how the Entente’s negotiations with Turkey went on before the war, on Turkey’s initiative and direct appeal, and that the Entente countries responded to Turkey’s offer to join this heartfelt union. Maybe then an insight will come in who is who and where to choose.
        3. Alf
          Alf April 10 2016 16: 34
          +4
          Quote: Jägermeister
          "Damned tsarism" knew how to choose its allies.

          The head of Russian military intelligence, General Bonch-Bruyevich, spoke out like this. With such allies no enemies are needed.
    3. timyr
      timyr April 10 2016 11: 22
      +1
      This is where such numbers come from that you accept do not share. Russia produced, as it did, assembled 1400 with pennies of aircraft. Italy 14 thousand aircraft produced. Germany for more than 100 thousand. There weren’t enough rifles, they were bought all over the world. They offered to equip soldiers with axes. 26 tons of machine guns were produced in total, and 28 tons were bought abroad. And the allies constantly delayed the execution of military orders for Russia.
      1. Valkokaarti
        Valkokaarti April 10 2016 12: 48
        0
        Quote: timyr
        Germany for more than 100 thousand.

        What? You do not confuse aircraft with flight personnel? laughing
        1. timyr
          timyr April 10 2016 13: 58
          -1
          Sorry, I'm sorry. 48900 produced.
      2. Jagermeister
        Jagermeister April 10 2016 12: 53
        0
        Quote: timyr
        This is where such numbers come from that you accept do not share. Russia produced, as it did, assembled 1400 with pennies of aircraft. Italy 14 thousand aircraft produced. Germany for more than 100 thousand. There weren’t enough rifles, they were bought all over the world. They offered to equip soldiers with axes. 26 tons of machine guns were produced in total, and 28 tons were bought abroad. And the allies constantly delayed the execution of military orders for Russia.

        "At the beginning of 1916, there were already over 1200 German aircraft on the Western Front." Loginov
        German armed forces in the 20th century. For instance. There are plenty of such sources.

        It’s one thing how many planes were fired.
        The other is how many of them were at the same time at the front, in the ranks, in battle. We see that in 1916 the Germans had as many as 1600 cars on the western, main front, and even less on the eastern. After all, the Anglo-French Air Force exceeded the Germans three times.
        The Allies had an enemy a hundred miles from Paris (this is like Mozhaisk from Moscow, or Klin).
        Here are the aliens of 100 German airplanes and grind. And you thought where did they go? Such was the intensity of battles in the West.
        Near Murmansk the allies created huge warehouses with military equipment, and even brought us so many shells for three-inch ones that not only the entire Civil but also the Patriotic War were enough.
        1. avt
          avt April 10 2016 13: 27
          +1
          Quote: Jägermeister
          Here are the aliens of 100 German airplanes and grind. And you thought where did they go? Such was the intensity of battles in the West.

          laughing laughing Do you know what a resource is? Again, how does he relate to technology, well, what is the word defined there? Have you ever seen a loss sheet? Count for technical reasons, written off for resource development there for example? wassat Campaign-no.
          Quote: Jägermeister
          If you are interested in the Zulus, take a look at the history of the creation of the Nazi uniform,

          Mom Daragaya! Well, not really Hugo, or is there Hugo, the Boss Zulu from Tanzania ?? wassat Well, well, SS, they flaunted something different from the Wehrmacht wassat Or like, There is no difference between true and false, unless of course you undress both. wassat
          1. Jagermeister
            Jagermeister April 10 2016 16: 57
            0
            Quote: avt
            Quote: Jägermeister
            Here are the aliens of 100 German airplanes and grind. And you thought where did they go? Such was the intensity of battles in the West.

            laughing laughing Do you know what a resource is? Again, how does he relate to technology, well, what is the word defined there? Have you ever seen a loss sheet? Count for technical reasons, written off for resource development there for example? wassat Campaign-no.
            Quote: Jägermeister
            If you are interested in the Zulus, take a look at the history of the creation of the Nazi uniform,

            Mom Daragaya! Well, not really Hugo, or is there Hugo, the Boss Zulu from Tanzania ?? wassat Well, well, SS, they flaunted something different from the Wehrmacht wassat Or like, There is no difference between true and false, unless of course you undress both. wassat

            Funny you honestly.
            Well, the fact that part of German planes can be attributed to non-combat losses is understandable.
            And the resource there is not very large.
            That’s what I’m saying. If 50 aircraft were fired during the war, then it is not a fact that they all appeared to be in good condition at the front and participated in the battles. Therefore, a one-time number of aircraft within 000. And not at all 3000 and not 50 thousand.

            Hugo Boss worked in a different historical era.
            But the brown shirts, caps and all this uniform of early German fascism were bought inappropriately from the raiser who stocked it for the war in Africa. This war was fought by several thousand Germans at the head of a large army of blacks. The German partisans managed to completely block the movement of goods in Uganda and Tanganyika, fettering up to a third of a million British soldiers.
    4. ImPerts
      ImPerts April 10 2016 11: 35
      +1
      When the question arose of increasing the production of aircraft due to their increased role, they stumbled into the banal impossibility of staffing them with engines. Very few did their own, and France, which was the main supplier of aircraft engines for Russia, refused to supply, because they themselves needed to provide their aircraft industry.
      Therefore, compare the security of the Russian imperial army not in 1914, but in 1916.
      Everything will fall into place.
      1. Jagermeister
        Jagermeister April 10 2016 13: 07
        +1
        Quote: ImPerts
        When the question arose of increasing the production of aircraft due to their increased role, they stumbled into the banal impossibility of staffing them with engines. Very few did their own, and France, which was the main supplier of aircraft engines for Russia, refused to supply, because they themselves needed to provide their aircraft industry.
        Therefore, compare the security of the Russian imperial army not in 1914, but in 1916.
        Everything will fall into place.

        I do not argue that our production capabilities were limited.
        The question is whether the Germans had the opportunity to hold a large aviation group at the front against us? No, they didn’t. They would cover the West.
        In the second world situation was similar. In the West, in France and Norway, the Germans had to keep half of their fighter aircraft.
        1. ImPerts
          ImPerts April 10 2016 13: 39
          +1
          It was because of the limited production capabilities of not only equipment and components, but also of other things, including food, that the Russian Empire by the 1917 year was in such ... opera that even the allies decided that Russia's withdrawal from the first world in the form of surrender inevitable.
          The military literature website has many memoirs of direct participants in those events. There are memoirs of the general of the quartermaster’s service, I don’t remember the name, Gurko immediately comes to mind, but it may not be him.
          So, to 1916, not to 1917, namely to 1916, a complete indent arrived in the supply of the army.
          And this is all, food, uniforms, equipment, ammunition, components.
          In the USSR, this was taken into account, it did not work out perfectly, but the country withstood the war with all of Europe.
          And the Germans did not have to keep large air connections on the Eastern Front, Russia did not have so many planes.
          But they surpassed us in the number of artillery, as well as in the number of shells fired and, accordingly, occupied territories.
          And repression in due time allowed to rebuild the economy. The transition to a mobilization economy in a short time allowed to increase the production of military products, which Tsarist Russia could not do.
          And do not forget about defeatists and lovers of Bavarian beer.
          It was not the Bolsheviks who overthrew the tsar; the tsar was overthrown by their own generals, together with the big capitalists.
          1. Jagermeister
            Jagermeister April 10 2016 17: 09
            0
            The shell hunger that hit the army in 1915, already by 1916 had been overcome.
            Explain to me, since we had nothing, due to what resources we waged the 3 civil war of the year. The answer is simple. Due to those stocks that you did not exist.
            Thousands of leather jackets - the well-known clothes of commissars and KGB officers, were prepared for the crews of armored vehicles, armored trains, airplanes, and Budenovka were also invented long before Budenny's mounted army appeared. But from some warehouse Budyonny put on his 60 soldiers. Which ones? From those who were not?
            Let's not talk about food. In World War I there was enough bread.

            The Germans could not therefore keep many planes on the Russian front because Russia had few of them. But because the Germans themselves did not have enough. They are at times inferior to the Anglo-French.

            To say that the repressions helped something there is not serious.
            It was not the repression that the niggle was doing. And prepare the shots. There were no personnel.
            1. Alexey T. (Oper)
              Alexey T. (Oper) April 10 2016 17: 19
              +3
              Quote: Jägermeister
              Explain to me, since we had nothing, due to what resources we waged the 3 civil war of the year. The answer is simple. Due to those stocks that you did not exist.
              It is incorrect to compare the scale of the hostilities of the Civil War with the First World War. In GV there was not a single case of artillery fire that was carried out before each attack of the WWII.

              Quote: Jägermeister
              But from some warehouse Budyonny dressed his 60 000 soldiers. Which ones? From those who were not?
              What is 60 thousand for more than 6-millionth army? 1% of the total military personnel. To consider this a serious reserve is simply ridiculous.

              Quote: Jägermeister
              Let's not talk about food. In World War I there was enough bread.
              Yeah. So enough that in the provincial cities in the 1915 year, food cards were introduced. And the February revolution was the result of the pogroms of bread shops in the capital.

              Here is what Rodzianko wrote in his report to the Tsar in February 1917:

              "The Moscow mayor informs in a note presented to the chairman of the Council of Ministers that Moscow's food situation critical; instead of 65 wagons of flour, - and according to the norms established in the food meeting at the Moscow mayor, even 86 wagons daily plus 7 wagons for food of Moscow peasants - in December, the delivery of flour to Moscow did not exceed 50 wagons per day, and in January it fell even to 42 wagons, i.e., the offer covered a little more than half of the demand. If the supply of flour is not brought to normal, Moscow will soon have no flour reserves at all. The situation in Petrograd is not better. January imports of essential goods amounted to 50% of the norm approved by the special meeting, and livestock, poultry and oil - 25%, and in the first half of January the delivery was better than in the second half. So, rye and rye flour had to be brought in 32 wagons per day, and 2, 1, 21, 2; wheat flour - 40 wagons per day, and 12, 10, 35, 8 and 2 were transported.

              Of course, to a lesser extent, there is nothing to say about the province, to which the attention of the authorities is drawn. Here are some typical illustrations. According to the Ural Regional Military-Industrial Committee, Perm lips. provided with grain reserves only until half of Marchafter which the reserves will all be depleted, and the Perm province, working for defense, in April, a uniform hunger threatensbecause there will be no bread on the market in March and April. A similar picture is observed fta opposite end of Russia. To the council of congresses of mining South of Russia messages are coming that many mines and factories were left almost completely without flour and are threatened with real hunger, and the Food Commissioner of the Ekaterinoslav lips. It is not able to provide enterprises with flour. At all the country's food business is in dire straits.

              http://nik2nik.ru/node/863
              1. Jagermeister
                Jagermeister April 11 2016 00: 54
                +1
                In the Great Patriotic War, there were no pogroms of grain depots.
                You could get a bullet. The people immediately became conscious.
    5. IS-80_RVGK
      IS-80_RVGK April 10 2016 11: 55
      -3
      Quote: Jägermeister
      By the 17th year, we were 2 times inferior to the Germans in combat aircraft, but taking into account the potential of our actively warring allies in the West, they exceeded Germany by 4 times ...

      Yeah, and if you add the allied tribe of Zusuls here, it’s such an overwhelming advantage over Germany in the number of spears, clubs and bows with arrows. laughing
      1. Jagermeister
        Jagermeister April 10 2016 13: 11
        0
        Quote: IS-80_RVGK
        Quote: Jägermeister
        By the 17th year, we were 2 times inferior to the Germans in combat aircraft, but taking into account the potential of our actively warring allies in the West, they exceeded Germany by 4 times ...

        Yeah, and if you add the allied tribe of Zusuls here, it’s such an overwhelming advantage over Germany in the number of spears, clubs and bows with arrows. laughing

        Zulus are not necessary.
        Add Moroccans with machine guns.
        If you are interested in the Zulus, take a look at the history of the creation of the Nazi uniform, you will learn about the war in Tanzania, and a lot of other things ...
        1. IS-80_RVGK
          IS-80_RVGK April 10 2016 13: 26
          -1
          Quote: Jägermeister
          Zulus are not necessary.
          Add Moroccans with machine guns.
          If you are interested in the Zulus, take a look at the history of the creation of the Nazi uniform, you will learn about the war in Tanzania, and a lot of other things ...

          Why did you all say that? In order to paint on the knowledge of any exotic?
          1. Jagermeister
            Jagermeister April 10 2016 13: 36
            +1
            Quote: IS-80_RVGK
            Quote: Jägermeister
            Zulus are not necessary.
            Add Moroccans with machine guns.
            If you are interested in the Zulus, take a look at the history of the creation of the Nazi uniform, you will learn about the war in Tanzania, and a lot of other things ...

            Why did you all say that? In order to paint on the knowledge of any exotic?

            Well, what does it have to do with it.
            Parts manned by Africans fought on the side of France and contributed to the victory.
            The share of allies in the First World War is very significant. Verdun, battle on the Somme, Marne ...
            The military efforts of Kaiser Germany must be divided into two, Russia fought not alone, the Germans then went not to Moscow but to Paris.
            1. IS-80_RVGK
              IS-80_RVGK April 10 2016 13: 39
              -2
              Quote: Jägermeister
              Well, what does it have to do with it.
              Parts manned by Africans fought on the side of France and contributed to the victory.
              The share of allies in the First World War is very significant. Verdun, battle on the Somme, Marne ...
              The military efforts of Kaiser Germany must be divided into two, Russia fought not alone, the Germans then went not to Moscow but to Paris.

              I know. You don’t understand why I mentioned Zusul?
              1. Jagermeister
                Jagermeister April 10 2016 17: 11
                0
                Quote: IS-80_RVGK
                Quote: Jägermeister
                Well, what does it have to do with it.
                Parts manned by Africans fought on the side of France and contributed to the victory.
                The share of allies in the First World War is very significant. Verdun, battle on the Somme, Marne ...
                The military efforts of Kaiser Germany must be divided into two, Russia fought not alone, the Germans then went not to Moscow but to Paris.

                I know. You don’t understand why I mentioned Zusul?

                Yes, I get it.
                Only the allies at that time were not full-fledged.
                1. IS-80_RVGK
                  IS-80_RVGK April 10 2016 17: 37
                  -1
                  Quote: Jägermeister
                  Yes, I get it.
                  Only the allies at that time were not full-fledged.

                  Here is an example to make it clearer. This is how to say that we have awesome industrial power with China. Together yes, but individually? Maybe then we will abandon our industry altogether, because together with China we have a great industry. And yes, it’s interesting what the soldiers at the front would do to you if you told them that there was nothing wrong with the lack of shells, the main thing is that we saved Paris and we had extremely powerful allies. smile
              2. Basil50
                Basil50 April 11 2016 21: 06
                0
                There, in France, along with the Zulus, and also on the rights of the colonial troops, there were RUSSIANS, whom the tsar leased to the French,
              3. The comment was deleted.
    6. Alf
      Alf April 10 2016 16: 32
      +2
      Quote: Jägermeister
      but the thing is that our country had rich and militarily powerful allies, taking into account which we surpassed the Germans at times.

      It doesn’t hurt that the allies shared their technology with us. Look for stories about deliveries of heavy guns to the Russian army.
      Quote: Jägermeister
      By the 17th year, we were 2 times inferior to the Germans in combat aircraft, but taking into account the potential of our actively warring allies in the West, they exceeded Germany by 4 times ...

      Yeah, "the average temperature in the hospital" ...
  • Holsten
    Holsten April 10 2016 10: 54
    -2
    The flawed position of Shcherba is obvious. I don't understand how outspoken opportunists become professors. In support of their position, such figures write: you, amateurs, do not understand our academic approach, hiding under the "academic" ordinary dishonesty and falsification of facts.
  • Basil50
    Basil50 April 10 2016 11: 07
    0
    I read about the development plans of RUSSIA under Nicholas 2, so many references to purchases abroad and the refusal to develop our own production of engines, chemicals, electrical equipment, optics, etc., etc. Documents are not secret and are quite understandable even to * the privilege *. In general, the tsar, just like a modern * oligarch * * * received * profit from not created by him, so he kept money abroad. It was not for nothing that the British made a fuss about the execution of the entire Romanov family, so that no one would demand deposits.
    1. ImPerts
      ImPerts April 10 2016 11: 40
      +2
      It reminds modern economists who have approved, why do we need this plant or factory? We will sell metal, coal, oil, gas, timber and buy it abroad. Abroad will help us.
    2. Jagermeister
      Jagermeister April 10 2016 13: 14
      -1
      Quote: Vasily50
      ... It was not for nothing that the British made a fuss with the execution of the entire Romanov family so that no one would demand deposits.

      Here it is ...
      So this is the British Nicholas.
      They probably decided the son of Ivan the Terrible. So that he does not marry Elizabeth.

      Let me remind you that 1913 is the year of the highest development of production in Russia.
      That is why Soviet historians compared the figures with the 13 year.
      Let me remind you that this was the reign of Nicholas ll
      1. Alexey T. (Oper)
        Alexey T. (Oper) April 10 2016 19: 08
        +2
        Quote: Jägermeister
        Let me remind you that 1913 is the year of the highest development of production in Russia.
        That is why Soviet historians compared the figures with the 13 year.

        There was nothing more to compare with. Since comparison with other years put the empire of Nikolashka the Bloody even more humiliating. "On a bezrybe and a toad - labordan-s" (c)
      2. Basil50
        Basil50 April 10 2016 19: 57
        +1
        * Aglitsky * lackeys were enough, which is already there. And these lackeys were nobles and * tiligents * with claims, they just used them as a * product *. The coup with the murder of PAUL 1 is very revealing. Re-read it, it is accessible and not difficult, there even incentive motives are primitive and simple.
      3. The comment was deleted.
  • Valkokaarti
    Valkokaarti April 10 2016 11: 49
    -3
    "Saving" damn repression!
    This must be said about tens of millions of warped Russian fates!
    This is how someone should be unlucky in life (I suspect that they deserve it!) So that he considered it permissible to build his "prison happiness" on the happiness and lives of other people !!!!! am
    1. 97110
      97110 April 10 2016 12: 46
      -2
      Quote: Valkokaarti
      This is so about tens of millions

      Little, little criminal. Only weavers-daughters of the Nikolaev soldiers repressed 140 million!
      1. Valkokaarti
        Valkokaarti April 10 2016 14: 09
        -5
        Quote: 97110
        Little, little criminal.

        Are you feeling well?
        Are you millions in a civil war?
        Few millions of starvation victims?
        Few million exiles?
        Few millions of executed and deceased in the camps?
        Few millions of dead in WWII because of the mediocre Stalinist command?
        Few unborn millions due to the fact that in a country where there is nothing to eat and they’re afraid of giving birth, they didn’t want to give birth?
        Well, admit how many denunciations of living people your ancestors wrote ?!
        Probably proud of the photos of the relatives of the "guardians" on the tower in the family album ?!
        1. 97110
          97110 April 10 2016 21: 01
          0
          Quote: Valkokaarti
          Are you feeling well?

          Yes, I feel good at home. I don’t need to put the shameful flag of a shameful country, and write utter rubbish from under it. Hope for a decent payment for unworthy actions? In vain.
          1. Valkoiset
            Valkoiset April 10 2016 21: 40
            -3
            Quote: 97110
            I don’t have to put a shameful flag on a shameful country

            Figs with him with a flag, is it in honor of what France has become a "shameful country"?
            As a child, you were not allowed to see the film "fantasy" in the cinema? laughing
  • timyr
    timyr April 10 2016 11: 57
    +2
    Quote: Valkokaarti
    Quote: parusnik
    writes about wrecking

    Trotsky wrote that the income from the collective farmers' farm as a rule was 3-5 times higher than the income from work on the collective farm.
    That's where the wrecking was, to destroy the elite of Russian farming so that the surviving peasants on collective farms would produce products 3-5 times inferior in value to what they produced on utility pancake dwarf farms !!

    Congratulations you deserve a Nobel Prize. It is known all over the world that it is more profitable and cheaper to produce in large agricultural enterprises. But you and Trotsky made a great discovery. Strange collective farms collapsed in the 90s and the guide great farmers who bombarded the country with food. No.
    1. Cat man null
      Cat man null April 10 2016 12: 03
      0
      Quote: timyr
      Congratulations you deserve a Nobel Prize. It is known all over the world that it is more profitable and cheaper to produce in large agricultural enterprises. But you and Trotsky made a great discovery. Strange collective farms collapsed in the 90s and the guide great farmers who bombarded the country with food. No

      - IMHO you feed the troll .. Yours, of course, right request
      - people confuse "income of collective farmers from subsidiary farming" with "output from subsidiary farming". That is, it certainly fed the owner of the subsidiary farm better than the collective farm fed him. The problem is that it only fed him
      - people do this (confuses) completely consciously, IMHO

      Voooot ...
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Valkokaarti
        Valkokaarti April 10 2016 13: 13
        -5
        Quote: Cat Man Null
        confuses "income of collective farmers from subsidiary farming" with "output from subsidiary farming". That is, of course, it fed the owner of the subsidiary farm better than the collective farm fed him. The problem is that it only fed him

        You are confusing something here! I say that Trotsky considered the market value of manufactured products in subsidiary and collective farms on world markets, that is, how much it would all cost after exporting to the USA, for example!
        And I think there is no need to explain why the production of a kilogram of sweets is better than the production of a ton of manure?
        Quote: Cat Man Null
        IMHO you feed the troll.

        That you think so in vain!
        In fact, I am a patriot of Russia, you just understand what the matter, a literate patriot cannot be a "communist" by definition, not a single country in the world has "communist" regimes brought happiness to the people of these countries!
        1. Alexey T. (Oper)
          Alexey T. (Oper) April 10 2016 19: 11
          +4
          Quote: Valkokaarti
          you understand what the matter, a competent patriot cannot be a "communist" by definition,
          A competent patriot is, by definition, a communist. Because communist ideology is based on scientific methods of knowing the world that an illiterate person simply will not understand.

          But fermented patriots for the most part are marginal ignorant individuals who, using their illiteracy, can easily be manipulated by hanging different cranberries on their ears about the crunch of French rolls at the governor's ball.
          1. Valkoiset
            Valkoiset April 10 2016 20: 36
            -2
            Quote: Alexey T. (Opera)
            Because communist ideology is based on scientific methods of knowing the world.

            So they would have respected the same Marx and Trotsky. So I read that and therefore I know that what happened in the USSR and other "communist regimes" had nothing to do with Marxism and communism except slogans!
            Quote: Alexey T. (Opera)
            But fermented patriots for the most part are marginal ignorant individuals

            But the "nostalgic for the USSR" are precisely these same jingoistic patriots, moreover, of the lowest tailoring.
    2. Valkokaarti
      Valkokaarti April 10 2016 13: 07
      -3
      Quote: timyr
      It is known all over the world that it is more profitable and cheaper to produce in large agricultural enterprises. But you and Trotsky made a great discovery.

      Exactly! Therefore, Trotsky proposed "collectivization" at the very beginning of the 20s as a NATURAL and EVOLUTIONARY process of enlarging farms into a more efficient form of ownership, and the basis for this transition according to Trotsky was the development of production forces (MTS, electrification, etc.) and it was the development of these the very forces and had to first provide the state.
      But then Stalin simply took and did not bother to socialize all farm property into collective farm property with its subsequent nationalization and it had nothing to do with the natural enlargement of farms, it was a usual robbery of the population of his own country with the subsequent catastrophic decline in the production of agricultural products. (Stalin even had to return the subsidiary plots, which he himself had banned for the first time for years)
      And this quote from him only indicates that how illiterate Stalin collectivization was, that large farms produced less income than small ones!
      1. timyr
        timyr April 10 2016 14: 07
        +3
        Strange Trotsky was expelled from the country in the year 29 and where he counted it. In the United States at that time there was a crisis, as there was a bunch of anger with food in clusters of anger. I wish you to eat some sweets, and bread and hell with it. Tell us about the successes of the 25 year rule of the capitalists in Russia.
        1. Valkokaarti
          Valkokaarti April 10 2016 16: 27
          -8
          Quote: timyr
          Strange Trotsky was expelled from the country in the year 29 and where he counted it.

          You probably won’t understand.
          Quote: timyr
          Tell us about the successes of the 25 year rule of the capitalists in Russia.

          AMAZING!
          For a little more than 10 years of the rule of "capitalists in Russia", being an 18-year-old student and earning money, I was able to buy myself a foreign car (albeit a BU) and rent an apartment in Moscow.
          The Communists did not have 70 years to provide the population with such a standard of living!
          The rector of my university in the late 80s lived worse than I was a freshman student in the early XNUMXs. He who has a brain, let him understand!
          1. Alf
            Alf April 10 2016 16: 45
            +2
            Quote: Valkokaarti
            For a little more than 10 years of the rule of "capitalists in Russia", being an 18-year-old student and earning money, I was able to buy myself a foreign car (albeit a BU) and rent an apartment in Moscow.

            And who did you earn?
            1. 1rl141
              1rl141 April 10 2016 20: 36
              +1
              Quote: Alf
              And who did you earn?


              Estimate, 10 years of the rule of the capitalists was a student. Student - 10 years. And he was able to earn extra money on a used foreign car - the ultimate dream of a pimply young man.
            2. Valkoiset
              Valkoiset April 10 2016 20: 37
              -4
              Quote: Alf
              And who did you earn?

              What’s the question? Do you think this was some kind of thieves job? No, it’s quite ordinary, though I was asleep then, about 4 hours a day, hell knows how old, but who’s easy now laughing
              1. 1rl141
                1rl141 April 10 2016 21: 17
                +2
                Quote: Valkoiset
                What’s the question? Do you think this was some kind of thieves job? No, it’s quite ordinary, though I was asleep then, about 4 hours a day, hell knows how old, but who’s easy now

                Yes ... It was probably difficult ... But now! With a proudly raised head, on a used foreign car, but with a breeze! Here it is freedom! Thanks to fair capitalism!
                Now there is an opportunity to pump on a NEW foreign car!
                1. Valkoiset
                  Valkoiset April 10 2016 21: 44
                  -4
                  Quote: 1rl141
                  Now there is an opportunity to pump on a NEW foreign car!

                  Why are you rude and demonstrate your ignorance and the impossibility of honest work to earn a car?
                  1. 1rl141
                    1rl141 April 10 2016 23: 26
                    0
                    Who is rude here? I just guess. What else can an LGBTeshny young man make money on a used foreign car ... Well, do not unload wagons at night!
                    And you can make money on a car. Honestly. I have three. Honestly earned. Overwork. And movie cameras too 3. And suede jackets also 3.
                    1. Valkoiset
                      Valkoiset April 11 2016 00: 28
                      0
                      Quote: 1rl141
                      Who is rude here?

                      You are rude and demonstrate your ignorance and the impossibility of honest work to earn a car.
              2. Alf
                Alf April 10 2016 22: 31
                +1
                Quote: Valkoiset
                Quote: Alf
                And who did you earn?
                What’s the question? Do you think this was some kind of thieves job? No, it’s quite ordinary, though I was asleep then, about 4 hours a day, hell knows how old, but who’s easy now

                Yes Yes Yes ! The eerily modern film Hipsters also shows how an ordinary student, having worked on unloading carriages, not only entered the circle of "golden youth", but also became his own there. There is no need to tell fairy tales, not on the United Russia forum.
                So still, with whom did you earn extra money, will I also try this way?
                1. Valkoiset
                  Valkoiset April 10 2016 23: 52
                  -1
                  Quote: Alf
                  not only entered the circle of "golden youth", but also became his own there. There is no need to tell fairy tales, not on the United Russia forum.

                  What golden youth, what does United Russia have to do with it?
      2. Alexey T. (Oper)
        Alexey T. (Oper) April 10 2016 19: 14
        +5
        Quote: Valkokaarti
        But Stalin then simply took and without bothering socialized all farm property on the collective farm with its subsequent nationalization
        Complete nonsense. Collective farm enterprises were transferred to state property (nationalized) already under Khrushchev. Under Stalin, they were the property of labor collectives.
        Quote: Valkokaarti
        it was the usual robbery of the population of their own country, followed by a catastrophic decline in the production of agricultural products.

        Even greater nonsense. It was the collectivization of the country that made it possible to avoid hunger during the most difficult war, when 40% of the population was in occupation.
        1. Valkoiset
          Valkoiset April 10 2016 21: 50
          -3
          Quote: Alexey T. (Opera)
          Collective farm enterprises were transferred to state property (nationalized) already under Khrushchev.

          I talked about subsidiary farms, when at first they were forced into collective farms under Stalin to give their own livestock, etc. as a result, the peasants simply slaughtered the same livestock and Stalin had to retreat and return the farms to the peasants.
          Quote: Alexey T. (Opera)
          It was the collectivization of the country that made it possible to avoid hunger during the most difficult war, when 40% of the population was in occupation.

          No. In the production of agricultural products, we only reached the NEP indicators by the 50th and that was not the point.
          The thing was that under the NEP, peasants refused to sell grain to the state for purchase, but he needed it for export abroad and purchase equipment.
          It was this, namely the lack of money for buying grain from the population, that forced Stalin to begin the nationalization of the CX hi
    3. Jagermeister
      Jagermeister April 10 2016 13: 26
      +4
      Quote: timyr
      Quote: Valkokaarti
      Quote: parusnik
      writes about wrecking

      Trotsky wrote that the income from the collective farmers' farm as a rule was 3-5 times higher than the income from work on the collective farm.
      That's where the wrecking was, to destroy the elite of Russian farming so that the surviving peasants on collective farms would produce products 3-5 times inferior in value to what they produced on utility pancake dwarf farms !!

      Congratulations you deserve a Nobel Prize. It is known all over the world that it is more profitable and cheaper to produce in large agricultural enterprises. But you and Trotsky made a great discovery. Strange collective farms collapsed in the 90s and the guide great farmers who bombarded the country with food. No.

      You confuse latifundia with collective farms.
      These are two big differences.
      I re-read recently the binder of the Technique of Youth for 42 years. Plant.
      War. Supply disrupted. A plan must be given. Komsomol members cast a cry.
      And they found the same high-grade raw materials. At a huge factory landfill. I’m not lying to God. And laughter and sin. But somehow this valuable product went to the landfill ... Someone sent it there for years ... it would seem that production under socialism should have reached its highest peak. In theory. But not in practice.
      1. IS-80_RVGK
        IS-80_RVGK April 10 2016 13: 34
        -1
        Quote: Jägermeister
        These are two big differences.

        Is there such a strong and fundamental difference in terms of work processes and other functions?
        Quote: Jägermeister
        I re-read recently the binder of the Technique of Youth for 42 years. Plant.
        War. Supply disrupted. A plan must be given. Komsomol members cast a cry.
        And they found the same high-grade raw materials. At a huge factory landfill. I’m not lying to God. And laughter and sin. But somehow this valuable product went to the landfill ... Someone sent it there for years ... it would seem that production under socialism should have reached its highest peak. In theory. But not in practice.

        Cho so weakly pull a couple of facts out of context. And somehow it sounds unconvincing.
        1. Jagermeister
          Jagermeister April 10 2016 13: 56
          +2
          Quote: IS-80_RVGK
          Quote: Jägermeister
          These are two big differences.

          Is there such a big difference in terms of work processes and other functions?
          Quote: Jägermeister
          I re-read recently the binder of the Technique of Youth for 42 years. Plant.
          War. Supply disrupted. A plan must be given. Komsomol members cast a cry.
          And they found the same high-grade raw materials. At a huge factory landfill. I’m not lying to God. And laughter and sin. But somehow this valuable product went to the landfill ... Someone sent it there for years ... it would seem that production under socialism should have reached its highest peak. In theory. But not in practice.

          Cho so weakly pull a couple of facts out of context. And somehow it sounds unconvincing.

          ABOUT! There are so many.
          I was impressed by the report on the opening of the Stalingrad tractor ...
          The author described the labor impulse of the masses! Like in the steppe, swollen, undressed enthusiasts worked hard at night. Then came the equipment. Why is it again at night. And no one knew about this. Therefore, they all raised the alarm.
          But the equipment did not come immediately. Before this, a delegation of laborers who went on a business trip to Odessa was knocked out. But the local authorities turned out to be pests. And only loaders of the Odessa port helped, with which they agreed privately.
          Moreover, the equipment came incomplete. From America. The pests did their best. Workers themselves began to produce the missing parts. There were no pickers. They were chosen from laborers.
          Then, at the opening of the plant, a tractor specially assembled for opening could not take the hillock. Workers heroically solved the problem. They fixed the car and still pushed it out the gate ...
          And after reading this, you begin to understand about repression and everything else ...
          I advise.
          1. IS-80_RVGK
            IS-80_RVGK April 10 2016 14: 00
            0
            Quote: Jägermeister
            And after reading this, you begin to understand about repression and everything else ...

            And what do you understand from this? Share your innermost knowledge. smile
            1. Jagermeister
              Jagermeister April 10 2016 14: 15
              +2
              Quote: IS-80_RVGK
              Quote: Jägermeister
              And after reading this, you begin to understand about repression and everything else ...

              And what do you understand from this? Share your innermost knowledge. smile

              Gouging sat at all levels. Able to speak the right words.
              Professionalism was replaced by assault, production obeyed politics.
              1. IS-80_RVGK
                IS-80_RVGK April 10 2016 14: 18
                0
                Quote: Jägermeister
                Gouging sat at all levels. Able to speak the right words.
                Professionalism was replaced by assault, production obeyed politics.

                You won’t believe it. And under the tsar it was the same even now, although it seems like we have non-capitalism. But your conclusions, of course, will be that the damned komunyaki are to blame for everything, I guessed? smile
                1. Jagermeister
                  Jagermeister April 10 2016 14: 34
                  0
                  Quote: IS-80_RVGK
                  Quote: Jägermeister
                  Gouging sat at all levels. Able to speak the right words.
                  Professionalism was replaced by assault, production obeyed politics.

                  You won’t believe it. And under the tsar it was the same even now, although it seems like we have non-capitalism. But your conclusions, of course, will be that the damned komunyaki are to blame for everything, I guessed? smile

                  Guessed.
                  Although now we do not have capitalism. Now we have a tribal system with elements of slavery. But with good chances of rapid development.
                  1. IS-80_RVGK
                    IS-80_RVGK April 10 2016 14: 44
                    0
                    Quote: Jägermeister
                    Guessed.
                    Although now we do not have capitalism. Now we have a tribal system with elements of slavery. But with good chances of rapid development.

                    Ndaaaa. And these people still blame the Communists for something. But you don’t understand in which country you live from the word at all. That's about tribal system and slavery in more detail possible. I’ve heard about this noodle a hundred times. But here is something intelligible Nichrome just do not see. Or is it just blurt out to shock, and there even though the grass does not grow? smile
                    1. Jagermeister
                      Jagermeister April 10 2016 17: 13
                      +1
                      Quote: IS-80_RVGK
                      Quote: Jägermeister
                      Guessed.
                      Although now we do not have capitalism. Now we have a tribal system with elements of slavery. But with good chances of rapid development.

                      Ndaaaa. And these people still blame the Communists for something. But you don’t understand in which country you live from the word at all. That's about tribal system and slavery in more detail possible. I’ve heard about this noodle a hundred times. But here is something intelligible Nichrome just do not see. Or is it just blurt out to shock, and there even though the grass does not grow? smile

                      This is slightly off topic on our manuscript. So you can go far
                      1. IS-80_RVGK
                        IS-80_RVGK April 10 2016 17: 38
                        0
                        Quote: Jägermeister
                        This is slightly off topic on our manuscript. So you can go far

                        And you come in do not be afraid. Maybe then you will understand when you see the whole picture as a whole what you are wrong about. smile
                  2. Alf
                    Alf April 10 2016 16: 39
                    +2
                    Quote: Jägermeister
                    But with good chances of rapid development.

                    Slavery?
          2. Valkokaarti
            Valkokaarti April 10 2016 16: 32
            -4
            Quote: Jägermeister
            Then, at the opening of the plant, a tractor specially assembled for opening could not take the hillock. Workers heroically solved the problem. They fixed the car and still pushed it out the gate

            Of all tractors in operation in the 30s, at least 50% were "under repair" all the time.
            Exactly the same picture was with Soviet trucks and this with an average annual mileage of 10-20 thousand km.
            For comparison, American trucks (which were Soviet copies) a year traveled at least 100 thousand km. and did not break!
      2. Valkokaarti
        Valkokaarti April 10 2016 14: 18
        -5
        Quote: Jägermeister
        And they found the same high-grade raw materials. At a huge factory landfill. I’m not lying to God. And laughter and sin.

        And laughter and sin, but the blockade is not even funny, but there was a case too! Almost in the middle of almost the blockade FOUND THE FOOD WAREHOUSE and this is really not a joke!
        And how missiles for aircraft were looking for (or for Katyusha, I don’t remember the details for sure)!
        There were no documents, but someone remembered that there were some missiles before the repressions, someone from the missile was found in the camp and he said which warehouses there were missiles in, where the documentation is and who can work with it!
        Quote: Jägermeister
        production under socialism was to reach its highest peak. In theory. But not in practice.

        Why in theory and not in practice?
        In short, in theory (if we read Marx, of course), socialism is a stage in the development of capitalism, in which the development of the instruments of production and labor productivity is already sufficient to satisfy the basic needs of all people, but public consciousness does not yet exist for the withering away of the state and the institution of private property.
        In practice, we see this in the EU and the USA, and initially we simply didn’t have any socialism at all, we had feudalism with a nuclear bomb (and under Stalin there was slavery too!)
        1. Cat man null
          Cat man null April 10 2016 14: 21
          -3
          Already funny wink

          Quote: Valkokaarti
          we had feudalism

          Justify?
          1. IS-80_RVGK
            IS-80_RVGK April 10 2016 14: 23
            +1
            Quote: Cat Man Null
            Justify?

            Wait, tears will come about passports and workdays. smile
            1. Cat man null
              Cat man null April 10 2016 14: 29
              0
              Quote: IS-80_RVGK
              Wait, tears will go about passports and workdays

              If we start with the definition of feudalism, these "tears" will never come.

              That's why I ... asked wink
              1. Pomeranian
                Pomeranian April 11 2016 09: 30
                +2
                Quote: Cat Man Null
                That's why I ... asked

                About 15 years ago, I sorted out the attic in the country and found a parcel with old papers. The documents were very entertaining; I gave them to a local historian. So about workdays, I looked at how much the collective farmers of the collective farm received a lighthouse in 1940 on workdays and ofigel. Four working TONS of rye and 400 kg of wheat, 300 kg of oats, 120 peas, vegetables, cloth and something else. Non-black earth however.
                1. vvp2
                  vvp2 April 11 2016 17: 58
                  -2
                  Quote: Pomoryanin
                  looked at how much the collective farmers of the collective farm received a lighthouse in 1940 at workdays and ofigel. Four working TONS of rye and 400 kg of wheat, 300 kg of oats, 120 peas, vegetables, cloth and something else. Non-black earth however.

                  There is something to go nuts.
                  According to the statistics of those years, 4 consumers per 2 workers (i.e. 8,96 average yards). This is taking into account children, the elderly, the disabled, etc.
                  Result:
                  rye - 1000: 365: 8,96 = 300 g of rye per day
                  wheat - 400: 365: 8,96 = 120 g of wheat per day
                  oats - 300: 365: 8,96 = 90 g oats per day
                  peas - 120: 365: 8,96 = 37 g peas per day
                  And how poor they only survived. But some of the products had to be sold at a low price (put into the procurement office). Because you had to buy some clothes. Footwear. Pay for teaching children in high school (under Dzhugashvili, secondary education was paid), buy textbooks for children, etc. etc.
                  But the scoops like it so much. This is the "ideal society" about which they trumpet at every corner. Apparently the "ideality of society" is expressed in the availability of products. The fewer there are, the more ideal the society, in their opinion. Strange creatures.
            2. Valkokaarti
              Valkokaarti April 10 2016 16: 34
              -5
              Quote: IS-80_RVGK
              Wait, tears will come about passports and workdays.

              Well, actually that’s true, without tears you won’t remember about it.
    4. The comment was deleted.
  • Aleksander
    Aleksander April 10 2016 13: 17
    +2
    Alas, there were repressions forced, they were determined not by a passion for punitive measures, but dull hostility to socialism part of the old technical intelligentsia


    And what article of the Criminal Code of the RSFSR allowed SHOOT (or plant) per "deaf hostility"?
    It seems to me that the author also radiates "dull hostility", why not him ..? yes

    Cases of 37-38 years were mainly considered by special extrajudicial bodies - triplets. The sentences were passed in absentia, i.e. without summoning the accused, as well as without the participation of the defense and prosecution, the sentences were not subject to appeal. This is how it is - denunciation of "dull hostility" and the end of a MAN. So that the arrested person does not worry and does not riot in prison, the sentence was communicated to him right before the execution.
    At the same time, the "work" of the triplets violated ALL acting USSR laws on court, investigation, etc.

    Decree of the President of the USSR “On the Restoration of the Rights of All Victims of Political Repressions of the 20-50's” 13.08.1990
    "
    Special Commission for the Additional Study of Materials Related to Repression, Extrajudicial decisions declared unlawful OGPU-NKVD-MGB in the 30-50 years on political affairs ;;"
    So the author is in violation of the LAW, justifying the killing and landing of innocent people (if the court has not condemned, it means innocent).

    PS that I personally caused full satisfaction is that THE WHOLE FIRST Soviet Government (Council of People's Commissars) was completely DESTROYED (except for four who managed to die) in 37-38 years. (these are by "court"). And the subsequent compositions, too (with rare exceptions). Which, however, turned out to be GITS and P.DONONKA angry , these old LENINS-and intelligence spies, and pests, and terrorists! Oh no no no! belay yes
    But justice istriumphed yes !
    1. Valkokaarti
      Valkokaarti April 10 2016 14: 24
      -2
      Quote: Aleksander
      PS that I personally met with complete satisfaction was that the WHOLE composition of the FIRST Soviet government (Sovnarkom) was completely DESTROYED

      Don't be so cruel smile
      All the same, the NEP was not quite bad, in any case, compared with the subsequent period, at least under the NEP there was freedom.
      Although I am certainly against the revolution.
      1. Aleksander
        Aleksander April 10 2016 14: 50
        0
        Quote: Valkokaarti
        Don't be so cruel


        So this is "intelligence spies, and pests, and terrorists", how else? request yes
        Moreover, they were recognized by the "court" of the very system that THEY also created. So everything is fair. yes
        1. Valkoiset
          Valkoiset April 10 2016 20: 39
          -1
          Quote: Aleksander
          Moreover, they were recognized by the "court" of the very system that THEY also created.

          Come on, they did not create this system. You yourself know how many members were in the CPSU (b) before the revolution and already in the Stalin years.
      2. Alf
        Alf April 10 2016 16: 40
        +4
        Quote: Valkokaarti
        All the same, the NEP was not quite bad, in any case, compared with the subsequent period, at least under the NEP there was freedom.

        And a lot of Nepmans invested in the development of industry, and not in the development of trade?
        1. ImPerts
          ImPerts April 10 2016 18: 14
          +2
          NEP, what a sweet word!
          Delight and fondness!
          How it reminds the era of trade and purchasing cooperatives and the trading houses that followed "buy and sell".
          We still sell and sell everything ...
          1. Valkoiset
            Valkoiset April 10 2016 20: 43
            -2
            Quote: ImPerts
            "buy Sell".
            We still sell and sell everything ...

            Does something bother you? Have you ever bought anything yourself?
            Remember how you "bought" in the USSR? From under the floor, by pull, taking kilometer-long lines from 2 o'clock in the morning or driving to large cities hundreds of kilometers away by train for groceries!
            It was good to live without "buy and sell" in those years ?!
        2. Valkoiset
          Valkoiset April 10 2016 20: 41
          +1
          Quote: Alf
          And a lot of Nepmans invested in the development of industry, and not in the development of trade?

          Invested.
          The same "Stalinist artels" were the NEP, which he had not finished in the first years of "industrialization".
          And this is not only the first television set in the USSR, but also PPSh in St. Petersburg and in general there are many, many good things, and this was all the NEP.
          1. Alf
            Alf April 10 2016 22: 35
            +2
            Quote: Valkoiset
            Invested.
            The same "Stalinist artels" were the NEP, which he had not finished in the first years of "industrialization".
            And this is not only the first television set in the USSR, but also PPSh in St. Petersburg and in general there are many, many good things, and this was all the NEP.

            NEP is pure capitalism, where only the owner had ownership of the means of production.
            But in the cooperative and cooperative, ownership was common. Do you feel the difference?
            1. Valkoiset
              Valkoiset April 10 2016 23: 58
              0
              Quote: Alf
              Do you feel the difference?

              I feel that both the property is private. And I don’t understand what bad you see in this?
              But do you feel where the legs of Stalin's artels grow from?
        3. vvp2
          vvp2 April 11 2016 17: 18
          -2
          Quote: Alf
          And a lot of Nepmans invested in the development of industry, and not in the development of trade?

          And your business, where did they invest their money? What, it is necessary to be interested in other people's property?
    2. Alexey T. (Oper)
      Alexey T. (Oper) April 10 2016 18: 46
      +4
      Quote: Aleksander
      The 37-38 cases were mainly dealt with by special extra-JUDICIAL three-body bodies. The sentences were delivered in absentia, i.e. without calling the accused,

      On the basis of what resolution of the case were the "troikas" considered in absentia?

      Quote: Aleksander
      This is how it is - denunciation of "dull hostility" and the end of a MAN.
      Each crime report has been thoroughly investigated. And to initiate a criminal case there was not enough one message. It was required that the information contained in it be confirmed by at least three witnesses. Which is quite acceptable in modern criminal practice.


      Quote: Aleksander
      THE WHOLE FIRST Soviet Government (Sovnarkom) was completely DESTROYED
      Have you tried to study history?

      Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars - Vladimir Ulyanov (Lenin)Comments are redundant.
      People's Commissar for Trade and Industry - V.P. Nogin. He died in Moscow in the 1924 year.
      People's Commissar of Education - A.V. Lunacharsky, died in December 1933 of the year on the way to Spain from angina pectoris in the French resort of Menton. The body is cremated, an urn with ashes is installed in the Kremlin wall on Red Square in Moscow.
      People's Commissar of Finance - I.I. Skvortsov (Stepanov), died in Sochi on 8 on October 1928 of the year at 4 hours 30 minutes of severe typhoid fever. He was cremated, the ashes were placed in an urn in the Kremlin wall on Red Square in Moscow.
      People's Commissar for Rail Affairs - M.T. Elizarov, in March 1919 died of typhus.
      People's Commissar of State Charity - Kollontai Alexandra Mikhailovna, first female minister in the world. Died 9 March 1952 in Moscow.
      People's Commissar of State Control - Essen, Eduard Eduardovich. He died in the 1931 year in Leningrad, from tuberculosis.
      People's Commissar for Nationalities - I.V. Dzhugashvili (Stalin)Comments are redundant.

      Total: of the 18 People’s Commissars that were part of the first composition of the Council of People's Commissars, eight (40%) died their death, in high esteem and respect.
      1. Aleksander
        Aleksander April 10 2016 23: 05
        -2
        Quote: Alexey T. (Opera)
        On the basis of what resolution of the case were the "troikas" considered in absentia?


        Read the orders of the NKVD and the testimonies of the executioners-criminals 37-38 from the NKVD (recognized as CRIMINALS by Dzhugashvili and Beria) and the surviving victims.
        Quote: Alexey T. (Opera)
        Each crime report has been thoroughly investigated. And to initiate a criminal case there was not enough one message. It was required that the information contained in it be confirmed by at least three witnesses. Which is quite acceptable in modern criminal practice.

        Well, who cares about your CHAT and sadistic inclinations?
        State appreciated and condemned all these extrajudicial killings of innocent citizens.
        Decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Council of the USSR "On Additional Measures to Restore Justice in Relation to Victims of Repressions in the Periods of the 30s and 40s and the Beginning of the 50s"

        16th of January 1989
        In order to restore social justice and eliminate the consequences of lawlessness that took place during the 30-40-s and the beginning of the 50-s, the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR decides:

        1. Condemn the out-of-court mass repressions of the Stalinist period, recognize the “troika” of the NKVD – UNKVD, the colleges of the OGPU and the “special meetings” of the NKVD – MGB – MVD of the USSR and the extrajudicial decisions made by them that were not valid canceled by the time of the publication of this Decree by the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR. To consider all citizens who were repressed by the decisions of these bodies, including those subsequently convicted of escaping from places of illegal special settlements, rehabilitated.

        Your and the author’s flashing delights-in the furnace.

        Quote: Alexey T. (Opera)
        Have you tried to study history?

        I’m saying exactly what I’ve learned, and again you are LIES, why? Unclear.
        Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars - Vladimir Ulyanov (Lenin) died earlier
        People's Commissar for Internal Affairs - A. I. Rykov shot
        People's Commissar of Agriculture - V.P. Milyutin shot
        People's Commissar of Labor - A. G. Shlyapnikov shot
        People's Commissariat for Military and Naval Affairs - Committee, composed of: V. A. Ovseenko (Antonov) (in the text of the Decree on the formation of the Council of People's Commissars - Avseenko), N. V. Krylenko and P. E. Dybenko all THREE Shot
        People's Commissar for Trade and Industry - V.P. Nogin himself died
        People's Commissar of Education - A. V. Lunacharsky died in a French resort
        People's Commissar of Finance - I. I. Skvortsov (Stepanov) - died of typhus
        People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs - L. D. Bronstein (Trotsky)killed
        People's Commissar of Justice - G. I. Oppokov (Lomov)shot
        People's Commissar for Food - I. A. Teodorovich shot
        People's Commissar of Posts and Telegraphs - N.P. Avilov (Glebov) was shot
        People's Commissar for Nationalities - I. V. Dzhugashvili (Stalin) himself (or not?)
        The rest of the Coltai nympho were assigned LATER.
        Total: of the 15 People’s Commissars, only four were able to die by their death until 37-l-lucky), and the rest-in esteem and respect-DESTROYED by their own "ally" lol
        .
        1. Pomeranian
          Pomeranian April 11 2016 09: 22
          +2
          Quote: Aleksander
          The state has evaluated and condemned all these extra-judicial reprisals against innocent citizens.

          If not for the night, be remembered Yeltsin was such a general prosecutor Kadannik. He once gave the students of the Sverdlovsk University the task to find evidence of massive illegal repressions and to his horror admitted on the pages of the Izvestia newspaper that not a single illegal case or prosecution had been identified not under the law then in force.
          Quote: Aleksander
          Your and the author’s flashing delights-in the furnace.

          Yeah. Is there a stove?
  • Roman 11
    Roman 11 April 10 2016 16: 28
    -4
    Arguments that the security officers indiscriminately imprisoned "defenders" are at least groundless.Aw ...., author, where are you flying?

    These people shed their blood in the battles for the homeland, but the homeland then put them on the wall ...... Here are the last executioners, they do not live in peace, muddied and legitimize the people - apparently the blood of innocently killed heroes does not allow quiet life.

    It seems that only this one maniac excites this topic, it would be worth it to seem to a psychologist !! When you write, at least think a little what you write.
    1. Alexey T. (Oper)
      Alexey T. (Oper) April 10 2016 18: 47
      +3
      Quote: Novel 11
      These people shed their blood in the battles for the homeland, but the homeland then put them against the wall.
      As part of the army of Vlasov, even one Hero of the Soviet Union fought. This high rank did not prevent him from taking the side of the enemies of his people.
      1. kon125
        kon125 April 11 2016 00: 40
        -1
        I think there is no black and white in history. Repressions were a necessary measure. This was not a good decision, but there are no good solutions in the face of time constraints. It is time for us to learn to perceive history in its entirety, not to take the other side. These were our ancestors they were mistaken, but they built the Great Power, what will remain after us, and how they will evaluate our affairs ... here’s the question. So there was a situation, it was necessary to restore, build a defense, persuade no time, acted by cruel methods, it’s easy for us to judge them now ...
  • Pomeranian
    Pomeranian April 11 2016 09: 19
    +1
    Great article. Only they can consider Stalin and his associates clinical paranoid with suicidal tendencies, destroying their country and destroying their own people. Now, the repressions would have greatly helped the country from the dominance of HSE graduates at the top.
    "With an unfinished technical process, the NKB began mass production of iron sleeves instead of brass ones, as a result of which 117 thousand out of one million 963 thousand iron sleeves were rejected ..." Wow, it turns out. And it was a sinful thing for me to think that roofing iron sleeves were a necessary measure to start a war ..
  • t7310
    t7310 April 11 2016 11: 19
    0
    Quote: timyr
    timyr EE Yesterday, 11:57

    Quote: Valkokaarti
    Quote: parusnik
    writes about wrecking

    Trotsky wrote that the income from the collective farmers' farm as a rule was 3-5 times higher than the income from work on the collective farm.
    That's where the wrecking was, to destroy the elite of Russian farming for the sake of surviving peasants on collective farms producing products 3-5 times inferior in value to what they produced on subsidiary pancake dwarf farms !!!!!

    Congratulations you deserve a Nobel Prize. It is known all over the world that it is more profitable and cheaper to produce in large agricultural enterprises. But you and Trotsky made a great discovery. Strange collective farms collapsed in the 90s and the guide great farmers who bombarded the country with food. No.


    so they were killed after 17, now they’re going from America ... a little bit (probably they did what they dumped in America, now there is a danger that they’ll do it or already, although there may be normal ones)
    1. t7310
      t7310 April 11 2016 12: 32
      -4
      professionals in their field (farmers, engineers, managers, and just skilled workers) did not want to work for a song, therefore, they muddied their business, the new government did not want or could not pay them (they wanted Schaub to work for the idea), but they did not want to endure competition either, but since the government was "green" so they decided to bury the competitors and appropriate the property, because they are not smarter and richer than the government, and in the future they planned to do this with everyone who is smarter and richer, but hunger began and they did not reach the same America, so the borders were closed, and so not I argue that there were also bad businessmen-owners, for sure there was an behind-the-scenes war between the government and private owners, the strongest won at that time, since many agreed to work for the idea, but most of them, after all, liked the robbery, so the owners of the onslaught of the party of murderers and thieves could not stand and just sadists,
      https://youtu.be/wmz93KjBnNY
      and those breakthroughs that were in those cases when people didn’t bother who they worked for but simply plowed to feed the children
      1. t7310
        t7310 April 11 2016 13: 34
        -2
        and under the tsar they could live normally and many lived under capitalism and under communism, in my opinion the matter is not in the system, then that in the power of some obscure clans this also seems to be different and probably not, but under the tsar this clan was at least the obvious ones are the Romanovs, well, clans in all countries are some kind of clans, I think the point here is that the rest of the countries see Russia as a superpower like China, the US Britons (by the way, the monarchist clan remained as in Japan) France and other clans of these countries may have agreed maybe a hidden war between clans is going on and under this war ideology is trying to pull fifth hostile ideologies from here (from the word ideot, drink cola and everything will be ok, but if phants aren't afraid of trains at all) in our country a sufficient percentage is sometimes fought on hostile ideologies population to destabilize the situation in the country
  • Kerch
    Kerch April 11 2016 16: 22
    0
    And the surplus? For some reason, the author, in the famine and devastation of the 20s, mentions only the negative activity of those dissatisfied with the authorities.
    1. Gamdlislyam
      Gamdlislyam April 12 2016 09: 09
      +1
      Quote: Kerch
      And the surplus?

      Dear colleague Sergey, it was not the Bolsheviks who came up with PRODRAZVERSTKU, but the top officials of tsarist Russia at the end of 1916, when there was nothing to feed the army, and anti-government protests of the masses (still economic) were held in Petrograd and large cities due to the lack of cheap food.
      1. Faust
        Faust 29 December 2016 06: 40
        0
        There was no surplus appraisal under the king. It began at Kerensky. And the Bolsheviks-robbed.
  • tracer
    tracer April 11 2016 16: 28
    0
    Thank you have to say Valkoisetu. The people are different. And he fights well. Pseudo in places but good.