Military Review

MiG-17 vs. F-105: Vietnam's first sky victory

47
MiG-17 vs. F-105: Vietnam's first sky victory



How significant was the “Russian trace” in aerial combat with American 4 fighters April 1965

History The participation of Soviet military experts in the Vietnam War, which lasted almost ten years - from 1965 to 1975 - remains largely unexplored. The reason for this is the reinforced veil of secrecy, which still wraps up many episodes related to the activities of the Group of Soviet military specialists in Vietnam. Among them were military personnel of the air defense forces, and military intelligence, and military sailors - and of course, military pilots. Officially, Soviet fighters trained and trained Vietnamese colleagues who mastered Soviet and Chinese (that is, also Soviet, but licensed) aircraft. And they were directly prohibited from participating directly in hostilities. However, the war often cancels at all or temporarily many formal prohibitions. So do not be surprised that recently in the official sources of the Ministry of Defense of Russia there have appeared data that could hardly have been made public earlier. According to this information, the first significant victory of the Vietnam Air Force over the American aviation, gained on April 4, 1965, was in fact the work of Soviet pilots.

However, it is still formally considered that the 4 of April 1965, the eight of the American F-105 “Thunderchip” strike fighters in the skies over Thanh Hoa, was attacked by four Vietnamese pilots on MiG-17 airplanes. The Americans were going to bomb the Hamrang Bridge and the power station in Thinh Hoa, and their plans became known when reconnaissance planes were the first to go towards targets. When information appeared on the eight F-105, going to attack, two MiG-17 units from the 921 th Fighter Aviation Regiment of the Air Force of North Vietnam were raised to the sky. The result of the fight was two American Thundercifs shot down by Vietnamese airplanes, and the 4 day of April has been celebrated in Vietnam as Aviation Day since then.

Most likely, accurate information about who was in the cabins of the Vietnamese MiG-17, will appear only after they open access to the military archives of that era in Russia. So far this has not been done, and even the members of the Group of Soviet Military Specialists themselves in Vietnam often cannot access their own data — even their own reports and official memos. But in any case, whoever was the “author” of the 4 victory of April 1965 of the year, it was the first victory of the Soviet fighters over the American ones, won in the Vietnamese skies. And this victory was all the more valuable because it was won by subsonic fighters who were opposed by the enemy, capable of developing supersonic speed!


[center] Vietnamese pilots are preparing for takeoff. Photo: http://acepilots.com
[/ Center
]
It is difficult for an uninitiated person to imagine how a subsonic aircraft can become a formidable opponent for a supersonic one: it is the same as trying, say, on a tractor to keep up with a car. But one has only to change the conditions - say, to put both of them off-road and the situation abruptly changes: the advantages of the tractor will come to the fore. Such a "tractor" was created at the very beginning of the 1950-s Soviet MiG-17. Formally, it was believed that he was able to reach the speed of sound, which allowed the wing of increased sweep, but in reality flew and maneuvered the “seventeenth” to subsonic speed. Which provided him with an advantage in close range combat, when it was more important that it was maneuvering opportunity, and not speed.

In turn, the American pilots who piloted the F-105 in the 1965 year were completely unaware of the danger of the MiG-17. The Thunderchiefs, armed with rockets and capable of carrying a substantial bomb load, were faster — but less maneuverable. In addition, the preparation of the first units, armed with these aircraft, was carried out in sterile field conditions, without any attempt to imitate the opposition of the enemy. And even after the F-105 was sent to Vietnam, their tactics during the ground attack remained unchanged. They were sent on a combat mission in a slim column of two, in links, retaining the flight mode most convenient for bombing, and completely disregarding that it was absolutely not suitable for air combat with enemy fighters. And the enemy, that is, the Vietnamese Air Force, whose actions were practiced to automatism under the strict guidance of Soviet military specialists and were also coordinated directly in the battle (at least by radio from ground command posts, and quite possibly, right in the air, if the pilots from the USSR actually participated in battles), did not fail to take advantage of this miscalculation.

Understanding that it will be difficult to catch up with “Thunderchief” in the tail, even if the enemy is completely loaded with bombs and significantly lost in speed, the MiG-17 pilots have adopted the tactics of ground ambushes and the imposition of an encounter melee. Early in the morning, one or two “seventeenth” links from their main airfield at ultra-low altitude flew to the airfield of a jump located near the highway used by the Americans (by the way, the habit of flying to attack and bombing the same routes also cost the US pilots too) . And as soon as it became known about the approach of the F-105, the MiG-17 took off into the air and met the “Thunderchiefs” with cannon fire, negating all their speed advantage. It was under these conditions that the Soviet aircraft’s maneuverability advantage and the presence of a cannon were best manifested: at short distances of maneuverable combat, the American air-to-air missiles of that time proved to be useless.

This is how the air battle of 4 on April 1965 of the year developed, which became the prologue to the big air battle over Vietnam. Its results were an unpleasant surprise for America: the overall score was ultimately in favor of the Vietnamese air force. And with a significant margin: only the MiG-17 ratio was one to one and a half, that is, at least 150 enemy aircraft shot down by the "seventeenth", had only about a hundred lost MiGs. And this is the colossal merit of Soviet military specialists, primarily fighter pilots who generously shared with Vietnamese comrades in arms their experience and tactical findings. So even if the 4 air battle of April 1965 was carried out exclusively by Vietnamese pilots, the “Russian trace” was more than significant. However, it should be taken into account how great the role of ideological work was in those years, and therefore it is not difficult to assume that even if the MiG-17 was piloted by Soviet pilots that day, North Vietnam simply couldn’t help ascribing this victory to its pilots - let alone that it fully complied with the requirements of secrecy, which was strictly followed by the Soviet side ...
Author:
Originator:
http://rusplt.ru/wins/mig17-protiv-f105-pervaya-pobeda-v-nebe-vetnama-22972.html
47 comments
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  1. Eugene
    Eugene April 9 2016 06: 48
    +18
    It is read in one breath ... Cool. At the beginning of the 80s I talked with a pensioner. A fighter pilot. He fought in Korea. But he kept quiet more. So, about life, about toys ... I regret that I could talk to him.
    1. DanSabaka
      DanSabaka April 9 2016 08: 09
      +18
      "The Vietnamese Li Xi Qing knocked you down" (c) .... you can't erase words from the song ....
      1. papik09
        papik09 April 9 2016 19: 28
        +1
        Quote: DanSabaka
        "The Vietnamese Li Xi Qing knocked you down" (c) .... you can't erase words from the song ....

        hi
        "The slanting one answers me,
        what commands the interrogation -
        Vanyushka Li Xi Qing knocked you down ... "(c)
        These are SUCH WORDS in a song ...
        hi
        1. Lexa-149
          Lexa-149 April 9 2016 23: 14
          +1
          Sergey Chigrakov (Chizh and So) sings this song like this:
          That slanted answered me
          That commanded the interrogation
          "Our pilot Li Xi Qing shot you down"
          1. shasherin.pavel
            shasherin.pavel April 10 2016 09: 24
            0
            Quote: Lexa-149
            Li Si Qi

            The letter "n" is already a Russian prefix, like Karamzin, derived from the Tatar "Kara-Murza", who converted to Orthodoxy and during the period of the adoption of Islam in the Horde, fled to the territory of Russia.
    2. Fitter65
      Fitter65 April 9 2016 16: 18
      +2
      And who is such a name you can find out the name? And you know how many pensioners and even more so flying ... From my crew 2 fighters were young, though the crew of the R-409MA. The truth is from the Air Force ...
      1. shasherin.pavel
        shasherin.pavel April 10 2016 09: 29
        0
        Quote: Fitter65
        And then you know how many pensioners and even more so flying ...
        What is the question: how many pilots are the Lisitsins retired? Of my crew 2 fighter was
        There are two fighters in the crew? in youth, the true crew of the P-409MA. the truth is from the Air Force.

        And it was impossible to write in Russian?
    3. Venceremos
      Venceremos April 9 2016 19: 37
      +7
      Quote: eugene
      It is read in one breath ... Cool. At the beginning of the 80s I talked with a pensioner. A fighter pilot. He fought in Korea. But he kept quiet more. So, about life, about toys ... I regret that I could talk to him.

      In elementary school, in the 80s, they invited a "war veteran" to the lesson, and he was 45 at that time ...
      "Korean" ... Radar operator ...

      Then, already, "slowly emerged" ...
  2. Volga Cossack
    Volga Cossack April 9 2016 07: 03
    +5
    Good article!!! Thank you - it’s a pity that we know little about such events - but the participants did not say .......... but there was a lot of accomplishment there ......
    1. Amurets
      Amurets April 9 2016 08: 12
      +6
      Quote: Volga Cossack
      Good article!!! Thank you - it’s a pity that we know little about such events - but the participants did not say .......... but there was a lot of accomplishment there ......

      Help a little links.
      Aviation in Vietnam - RUFOR.ORG.htm
      http://mexalib.com/view/89708
      And this is a link to the book: Kolesnik.N.N. "The Vietnam War ... How It Was (1965-1973). This is a collection of memoirs. The book is read with interest.
      About the article. It is read with interest, but I was a rocket launcher and searched more for materials on the S-75 air defense system. And the post is plus, definitely. The further, the less there are those who went through this war.
      1. Vivan
        Vivan April 10 2016 10: 34
        +1
        Read here the information that I gathered from various sources - http://forum.awd.ru/viewtopic.php?f=210&t=205742&start=120 (starting with message # 133).

        By the way, on my bookshelf is the book “The War in Vietnam. How it was. 1965-1973. ” This book was presented to me by one of its authors, a former rocket launcher V. Skoryak (in recent years he has come to Vietnam several times at the invitation of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam, we traveled to different places in Vietnam).
    2. K-50
      K-50 April 9 2016 15: 39
      +5
      Quote: Volga Cossack
      Good article!!! Thank you - it’s a pity that we know little about such events - but the participants did not say .......... but there was a lot of accomplishment there ......

      The "nondisclosure" subscription is most likely still valid. So light on those events will not be shed soon. request hi
      1. NordUral
        NordUral April 9 2016 16: 16
        0
        And secretly in vain. If they knew more, it is unlikely that the Union would fall apart with our tacit connivance. And so it was in everything, we did not know much good about ourselves.
  3. Kronos07
    Kronos07 April 9 2016 07: 12
    +3
    10 minutes from my house MiG-17 flight museum in Seattle. Beautiful fighter.
    1. Vladimirets
      Vladimirets April 9 2016 08: 07
      +2
      Quote: Kronos07
      10 minutes from my house MiG-17

      And Vietnamese. smile
      1. Kronos07
        Kronos07 April 9 2016 08: 16
        0
        trophies of war
        1. user1212
          user1212 April 9 2016 08: 49
          +10
          Quote: Kronos07
          trophies of war

          McCain would be moved there from the Senate ... also, after all, the Vietnam trophylaughing
          1. Vladimirets
            Vladimirets April 9 2016 09: 07
            +6
            Quote: user1212
            also a trophy of Vietnam

            To the section of the exposition "The influence of war on the mental state of a serviceman". yes
          2. Kronos07
            Kronos07 April 9 2016 09: 16
            +1
            lol

            I'm all for it ....
          3. K-50
            K-50 April 9 2016 15: 40
            +2
            Quote: user1212
            McCain would be moved there from the Senate ... also, after all, the Vietnam trophy

            All local dogs gather in line to mark territory laughing
  4. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter April 9 2016 07: 16
    +7
    They all went under a subscription. And nobody wanted to "wind" the top ten for a long tongue. Serious service in the USSR was, without sentiment. And secrecy was strictly observed, for a notebook with "mailboxes" and telephones you could break your career in five minutes. Therefore, we do not know much. And people-eyewitnesses leave ...
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. creak
      creak April 9 2016 10: 08
      +7
      Quote: Mountain Shooter
      Today, 07: 16
      They all went under a subscription. And nobody wanted to "wind" the top ten for a long tongue


      As for the dozens - you got a little excited, it wasn’t so harsh and the subscription was not always and not all ...
      Secrecy was generally respected at the official level, in the media, of course, this was not refreshing, unlike the current moment, and the USSR did not recognize and sometimes refuted the participation of our troops in local conflicts of those times, of which there were many ...
      Awards were also received on the basis of closed decrees that were not published in the press.
      And at the household level, conversations on this topic were conducted with colleagues and they didn’t particularly persecute anyone for this and did not shut their mouths ...
      Do not overly dramatize ....
      1. Warrior2015
        Warrior2015 April 28 2016 23: 01
        0
        Quote: ranger
        , everything was not so harsh and the subscription was not always and not all ...

        Uh-huh, even by aerodrome specialists and logistic services on "business trips". Everyone.

        Quote: ranger
        And at the household level, conversations on this topic were conducted with colleagues and they didn’t particularly persecute anyone for this and did not shut their mouths ...
        Well, you compared - by the way, they also went under subscriptions and with admission forms.
  5. Pre-cat
    Pre-cat April 9 2016 07: 20
    +4
    Of course. it was a simple vietnamese guy li-si-tsin wink
  6. DM51
    DM51 April 9 2016 07: 27
    +4
    Quote: Cat undereducated
    Of course. it was a simple vietnamese guy li-si-tsin wink

    But everyone called him Ivanovich and he was from under Tambov wink
    1. The stranger
      The stranger April 10 2016 02: 38
      0
      And what do we know about Vietnamese? The country is eastern, full of mysticism. Maybe a Vietnamese sat there in the gloomy jungle, fell into the Seventh Circle of something, and received insight. And let me go to Tambov, I’ll be born. Well, he went, was born, returned, but he feels that something is not right. With anguish, he warped up with ensign from the airfield company. And he once dragged the canister, poured humanly. But the Vietnamese is Asian, because they have something with biochemistry, they don’t tolerate alcohol. Here, having drunk, the Vietnamese declared himself Ivanovich. The guys liked the clicker, got accustomed. And according to the passport - the same Li Si Tsyn, the district policeman is not fooled, although the jungle is around.
  7. aba
    aba April 9 2016 08: 00
    +3
    from their main airfield at ultra-low altitude they flew to the airfield of a jump ... MiG-17 took to the air and met the Thunderchiffs with cannon fire, nullifying all their speed advantage.

    Sniper work!
  8. Alex_36
    Alex_36 April 9 2016 08: 19
    +4
    In 96th on the 1st year, when he studied in our Belarusian VA RB. Shchukin came to us. By performance, he is in the top five in Korea. 17 shot down. He told me that if a niger knocks you and you are thrown with a parachute, then he will definitely shoot you in the air. So they had such a small revenge for racial discrimination. But White did not touch - calmly allowed to land.
  9. _umka_
    _umka_ April 9 2016 08: 22
    +11
    Beautiful plane ..
  10. guzik007
    guzik007 April 9 2016 09: 10
    +4
    Well done, the author never revealed the account of that battle. Able to keep secrets: =)
    1. Fox
      Fox April 9 2016 12: 52
      +1
      Quote: guzik007
      Able to keep secrets

      you just need to read off-diagonally ...
      two downed thunderchiefs ...
  11. kig
    kig April 9 2016 11: 13
    +3
    And you have to ask the Americans. Surely there were radio intercepts, and if Russian was heard in the air ... then, then, along with tactical techniques, our students also conveyed philological knowledge to the Vietnamese.
    1. 0255
      0255 April 9 2016 13: 16
      +1
      Quote: kig
      And you have to ask the Americans. Surely there were radio intercepts, and if Russian was heard in the air ... then, then, along with tactical techniques, our students also conveyed philological knowledge to the Vietnamese.

      You can see the Discovery - they will tell you that the score was 10 MiGs per 1 Phantom, just like in Korea))) So then, the United States left Vietnam after 10 years?
      1. shasherin.pavel
        shasherin.pavel April 10 2016 09: 43
        0
        But they didn’t lie: they counted all MiGs, including all types of pistons. The Americans did not immediately use jet engines in Vietnam, but why should we supply jet (secret) ones if the piston ones did it? They reassured their population, saying: "This month, the US Air Force made 300 flights in Vietnam, in contrast to 1000 sorties last month." But they did not say that there are 4 planes in the "link", and the "departure" is one plane. Chitatelt understood that the number of sorties had decreased, and if 300 multiplied by 4 aircraft then ...
  12. oxotnuk86
    oxotnuk86 April 9 2016 13: 12
    +1
    Philological knowledge is acquired very quickly. Used specifically, error-free, especially in a fight.
  13. uizik
    uizik April 9 2016 14: 10
    +1
    Everything and everyone was then recorded and analyzed. Every year, month and day, every air or tank battle is carefully studied. (Air battle over Long Bai, tank battle in the Jug Valley of Laos, etc.) But this is for specialists. What hurt, what kind of fungus affected American soldiers, what was done to raise their "spirit" is not interesting for an ordinary citizen!
  14. Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I April 9 2016 14: 47
    +2
    In fact, there were jokes about the negotiations in the air of "Vietnamese" pilots ... it's a pity that at the moment I can't remember ...
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I April 9 2016 15: 01
        +1
        Yes, it could well be like that! But the joke was not enough!
  15. wanderer
    wanderer April 9 2016 15: 05
    +1
    Well, yes, like - yellow-bellied, hands ar! Neither Ku Young, the Vietnamese do not give up !!! Charge Vanya ...
  16. Vivan
    Vivan April 9 2016 18: 06
    0
    Listen to the voice of the announcer (from 22min50) and the recognition of Major General I. Shport (c 23min12) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIjqSBOyxFI
  17. NSh-011600
    NSh-011600 April 9 2016 20: 44
    +3
    Vietnamese fighter over Hanoi
    knocks down the seventh plane
    and a strong Russian word
    inserts - so fall
    e .... th in the mouth!
  18. SOB
    SOB April 9 2016 22: 21
    +1
    Not a word about the battle itself
  19. Andryukha G
    Andryukha G April 11 2016 09: 52
    0
    Quote: eugene
    It is read in one breath ... Cool. At the beginning of the 80s I talked with a pensioner. A fighter pilot. He fought in Korea. But he kept quiet more. So, about life, about toys ... I regret that I could talk to him.

    In those days, no one would have talked to them, even during a table discussion, because given a non-disclosure subscription.
  20. Fast_mutant
    Fast_mutant April 11 2016 11: 33
    +1
    Quote: Alien
    And what do we know about Vietnamese? The country is eastern, full of mysticism. Maybe a Vietnamese sat there in the gloomy jungle, fell into the Seventh Circle of something, and received insight. And let me go to Tambov, I’ll be born. Well, he went, was born, returned, but he feels that something is not right. With anguish, he warped up with ensign from the airfield company. And he once dragged the canister, poured humanly. But the Vietnamese is Asian, because they have something with biochemistry, they don’t tolerate alcohol. Here, having drunk, the Vietnamese declared himself Ivanovich. The guys liked the clicker, got accustomed. And according to the passport - the same Li Si Tsyn, the district policeman is not fooled, although the jungle is around.


    And what is it that you have so zagorny for opening the chakras ?! )))
  21. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 April 28 2016 23: 13
    0
    The article is good, correct, plus the author!

    And as soon as it became known about the approach of the F-105, the MiG-17
    took to the air and met the Thunderchiffs with cannon fire, nullifying all their speed advantage.
    A bit wrong - the jump airfield was made to save fuel and time, and so the "air ambush" attacked with an advantage in height during a dive.

    So even if the air battle of April 4 of the 1965 of the year was fought exclusively by Vietnamese pilots, the “Russian trace” in it was more than significant.
    did not lead. It was precisely a "demonstration of combat skills" by a personal example from Soviet instructors.

    By the way, experienced American pilots from the Korean War very often could figure out a "Soviet instructor" in a flight for a different piloting style and a qualitatively different level of combat skill, preferring to evade a fight with him, attacking clearly weaker airplanes in the art of air combat with Korean and Chinese and then Vietnamese pilots. Another tactic was to pile on the plane of the Soviet instructor with all his might in order to shoot it down and thereby further finish off the pilots from Southeast Asia who were immediately lost morally.