Military Review

How many "Apaches" will eat an "Alligator"?

253
How many "Apaches" will eat an "Alligator"?



Initially, attack helicopters were created to support the Ground Forces. They ensured superiority over the enemy on the battlefield. Using its impressive arsenal and advanced detection systems, the helicopter sees everything and rapidly acts on introductory of any level of complexity. Destroys the manpower and armored vehicles of the enemy, or coordinates its combat operations - there are no impossible tasks for the attack helicopter.

The American AN-64 "Apache" and the Russian Ka-52 "Alligator" are the most famous "personalities" in their family. Their competitors from other countries simply have no chance to fight them. Let's understand who is “cooler”.

"Apache"



The American helicopter at one time made a real breakthrough in the field of helicopter engineering. Back in the 70s of the last century, the Pentagon already saw in its ranks not just a helicopter with a pair of guns, but a promising fire support vehicle. Requests are relevant: in the conditions of active counteraction of air defense and electronic warfare at any time of the day and in any weather, Apache should open enemy Tankslike can opener tin cans.

The helicopter body is made of high-strength materials, but they are only on paper. The Apache has a tandem arrangement of the seats, where the pilot-gunner sits first, and the pilot himself is slightly higher (for a better view). The cockpit is reinforced with Kevlar and polyacrylate in order to increase survivability. If we take the “non-show-off characteristics”, then the cruise speed of the Apache is equal to 293 km / h, flight range - 480 km, carrying capacity - 770 kg.

The four suspension hubs under short wings can fit a rather impressive arsenal: up to 16 anti-tank Hellfire missiles (the ones that embody the principle of “fired and forgotten”); blocks of unguided rockets; M230EX1 “Chain Gan” cannons, and a couple of “Stingers” on the sides for air battles. Under the cab is a built-in unit with a movable 20-mm automatic gun.

Now in service with the United States is a modification of the Apache Longbow. It is distinguished from the former by a powerful radar located above the main rotor hub, and improved avionics. On this, in fact, everything.

"Alligator"



The favorite of the Russian public and, indeed, a unique helicopter of a new generation. Chief Designer Sergey Viktorovich Mikheev tried to create a powerful "drummer" in the best traditions of the Soviet school, but with due regard for modern requirements. And he did it.

Maneuverable, all-weather, well armored, high-tech, armed to the teeth ... In the end, he is just good-looking. Ka-52 is a truly successful continuation of the line of machines of the Kamov Design Bureau, where earlier, during the years of the so-called “perestroika”, they unjustly buried the forefather “Alligator” - Ka-50 “Black Shark”.

Ka-52 is made according to a coaxial scheme (a pair of screws rotate in opposite directions), which allows you to perform miracle maneuvers. Gust of wind in 140 km / h? No problem. The maneuverability of the helicopter does not deteriorate. In addition, thanks to this scheme of screws, the helicopter can fly both sideways, and the “back”, without turning the fuselage in the right direction.

The Ka-52, like its predecessor, the Ka-50, is able to perform a unique maneuver - the so-called funnel - to move in side flight in a wide circle above the ground target with a downward slope and an accurate view of it (mainly for active evasion of air defense).



The hull is well protected from large-caliber machine guns and small-caliber guns (Afghanistan taught). "Alligator" is equipped with a unique pilot ejection system, which has no analogues in the world, or, more precisely, the only one of its kind. Cruising speed - 250-300 km / h, flight range - 520 km, payload more than 2000 kg. It is equipped with the “all-seeing eye” of the “Samshit” GOES, located under the fuselage (this is both a thermal imager and other technology wonders), as well as other state-of-the-art avionics.

With the combat power of the Ka-52 not compare any attack helicopter from the now existing. Underwing holders allow you to contain an impressive arsenal, namely: before the 12 ATGM of the last modification (Attack with a laser or radar beam), up to 80 unguided missiles, 4 Igla missiles for air combat, and anything else at the request of the client, so to speak (suspended guns, guided missiles, air bombs, etc.). On the right side of the fuselage there is a built-in mobile 30-mm gun mount.

Who will win?



Let's look at the power plants of helicopters. The two installations on the 2700 horsepower of the Alligator are much more powerful than the two on the 1890 horsepower. at "Apache". Thanks to such a powerful "hardware", the Ka-52 can lift much more weapons, but in terms of flight range, it will only slightly concede to the American. Maneuverability is also good. The coaxial scheme plus sleight of hand is an elusive goal for the enemy’s air defenses.

We return to the booking body. Polyacrylic armor plates of the Apache can only reflect a single Kalashnikov line-up, and that’s not a fact. Although in the parameters of “American” there is a column “improved survivability”, the cases of a helicopter hitting a machine gun were officially documented.

Developers from the United States decided to focus on maneuverability and stealth, but they ignored such an important parameter as booking. Ka-52 is in the best traditions of the Soviet military industry generously and stylishly "wrapped up" with armored plates. Well, of course, the catapult - let's not forget about it! So who is more tenacious?

With regards to weapons. Before "Apache" our "Alligator" has three main advantages. First of all, it is an opportunity to raise ammunition and rockets as much as necessary, and not as much as the small capacity of the “American” allows. Secondly - the presence of identical weapons on other types of Russian military equipment. The same gun is on the BTR and the BMP, and the ATGM is on attack aircraft. In addition, our 30-mm projectile is many times more powerful than the Apache small-caliber projectile. Thirdly, both pilots can fire at the enemy from the Ka-52 (four hands are more than two).



And finally, the cost. For the latest modification of Apache Longbow, the customer gives about 55 million dollars. For the Russian Ka-52 - only 16 million dollars. Three "Alligator" or one "Apache"? The choice, I think, is obvious.

Apache is ideal for well-planned tasks. When there are coordinates, there is support from the ground, there is an unsuspecting enemy ... But if the American "drummer" is thrown on a patrol of urban areas, it will be easy prey for the enemy. A weakly armored corps cannot elementarily save the crew from a “burning arrow” of MANPADS or a large-caliber machine gun.

Our Ka-52 is also not a “patrol” machine, but the tactical and technical characteristics completely allow the Alligator to work in absolutely any situation, be it reconnaissance, escort, or a full-fledged military operation using all types of weapons.

So, as they say, from the screw!
Author:
Originator:
http://otvaga2004.ru/kaleydoskop/kaleydoskop-air/skolko-apachej-sest-alligator/
253 comments
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  1. cast iron
    cast iron April 2 2016 00: 37
    -42%
    The author of the Ka52 armor wrote nonsense. Aviation armor cannot repel anti-aircraft gun fire. God forbid, if it reflects 12,7 mm, then that is not a fact. A helicopter with armored plates cannot weigh like a heavy infantry fighting vehicle.
    1. timothy61
      timothy61 April 2 2016 07: 19
      +36
      watch the test video
    2. Lex.
      Lex. April 2 2016 08: 02
      +28
      Well, why can't he not all in armor at what distance they shoot at him. Any kind of armor happens, for example, ceramic it is lighter and harder than steel
      1. WUA 518
        WUA 518 April 2 2016 08: 05
        +37
        Quote: Lex.
        Well, why can't he not all in armor at what distance they shoot at him.

        I didn’t find the KA-52, but from the Mi-28 tests.
        1. Lex.
          Lex. April 2 2016 11: 27
          +1
          There they showed a shell of 20 mm of, but for example, if a tungsten carbide core, then the result would be different
          1. neri73-r
            neri73-r April 2 2016 12: 24
            +13
            There they showed a shell of 20 mm of, but for example, if a tungsten carbide core, then the result would be different


            If, if only, then grandmother would be a grandfather !!! This is your guess and nothing more! You generally do not have such helicopters, buy it! hi
            1. Lex.
              Lex. April 2 2016 13: 19
              +1
              If, if only, then grandmother would be a grandfather !!! This is your guess and nothing more! You generally do not have such helicopters, buy it!
              In war, as in war, if it doesn’t pass, for example, the zsu-23 mm is widespread among terrorists
              1. avia1991
                avia1991 April 2 2016 22: 01
                +24
                Quote: Lex.
                For example distributed among terrorists zsu-23 mm

                Well fsoaaa! belay
                It remains to talk about the shells for these ZSU with
                Quote: Lex.
                tungsten carbide core
                wassat
                1. Gogia
                  Gogia April 4 2016 16: 17
                  +3
                  Depleted plutonium fellow
                  1. Name classified
                    Name classified April 4 2016 17: 12
                    +5
                    Or even from an enriched oligarchy)
                    1. abrakadabre
                      abrakadabre April 4 2016 19: 59
                      +2
                      Cast iron is our everything !!!
                      But seriously, there is a test, the range of fire - less than 50 meters. But the Barmalei on ZSU-23 have not yet been flying with us, in order to naughty at a helicopter at point blank range. Well, from a distance of 1-2 km, the energy of the projectile is already comparable to that in the tests.
                2. Lex.
                  Lex. April 4 2016 21: 00
                  +1
                  You don’t have a clue what it is.
              2. yehat
                yehat April 3 2016 16: 14
                +11
                what about the air defense, which cannot: the su-25 was designed from the fact that the cockpit can withstand a 20mm cannon firing, the ka-50 and 52 the reservation scheme was designed so that it can withstand 20-23mm barrels from the most probable directions, in the rest no less than 12.7
                all this was tested by real tests and not fake ammunition.
                as for the praise of ceramic armor, it is not very good:
                1 shell / bullet withstands, but the turn ... affects the fragility of the material: it crumbles, sometimes it just can not withstand the general kinetic pressure, after the fight repair is impossible - only a replacement. Also, ceramic armor behaves worse if it breaks through a obviously more powerful ammunition - shells do not stick there, there is no partial penetration. At the same time, it holds cumulative charges somewhat better.
                But who shoots such in the air)))
                Although, I do not exclude the option of RPG-7 on a target hanging from the ground
                1. goose
                  goose April 4 2016 09: 55
                  +2
                  Quote: yehat
                  Although, I do not exclude the option of RPG-7 on a target hanging from the ground

                  Checked, hit at any point leads to destruction.
                  1. yehat
                    yehat April 4 2016 11: 58
                    +2
                    who tested this ka-52 on the RPG-7 ???
                    Yes, even at all points?
                    I can say that getting into the Mi-24 is far from all points will lead to the destruction of the machine:
                    for example, in the transport department can only crush and tear part of the body,
                    but the car will remain capable of flying
                    The ka-52 is more densely packed, but there are places that are insensitive to serious damage.
                    one thing is certain - the ability to penetrate armor in hand grenade launchers of almost any conventional grenade is much higher than the resistance of armor, which
                    designers of the whole world are laying.
                    on the other hand ... try to shoot down the Mi-12: if you don’t get into the cockpit or the engine, the hit will just drown in a hefty carcass.
                  2. Gogia
                    Gogia April 4 2016 16: 19
                    +4
                    Su-25 came with a hit in the Stinger engine. Photos were somewhere on the internet. The plane came with a torn booty .... but it came !!!!
                  3. Old old
                    Old old April 5 2016 22: 33
                    +2
                    Checked, hit at any point leads to destruction.

                    During combat survivability tests, tail feathering was carried out, but the helicopter could continue flying, while maintaining stability and controllability, and make a safe landing. (http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_rus/ka-50-r.html)
                2. Gogia
                  Gogia April 4 2016 16: 18
                  0
                  On ceramics, everything is simple - one bullet - one plate ..... It must be combined with polymer and metal ...
                3. Gogia
                  Gogia April 4 2016 16: 21
                  0
                  Shooting is carried out normally, in real conditions it would look like this - a helicopter flies past you at a speed of 200 km / h at a distance of 200 m and you have time to get into it. In reality, he is heading into maneuvering courses - try to hit from ZU-23 - all the more, she is perfectly unmasking herself. Next is a matter of technology.
              3. goose
                goose April 4 2016 09: 54
                +2
                Quote: Lex.
                If, if only, then grandmother would be a grandfather !!! This is your guess and nothing more! You generally do not have such helicopters, buy it!
                In war, as in war, if it doesn’t pass, for example, the zsu-23 mm is widespread among terrorists

                And for her OFS is the only shell.
              4. OlegLex
                OlegLex April 4 2016 20: 24
                +1
                Zushka is the twenty-third good argument, for 52, but only if you catch up and count at point blank range (up to five hundred meters) at the height of a kilometer and will not take it with anti-aircraft maneuver. And then, despite the fact that 23 does not have a guidance locator, it can still be detected by helicopter automation.
            2. Lex.
              Lex. April 2 2016 13: 59
              +1
              You generally do not have such helicopters, buy it!
              And you don’t have drone drone like Israel and you buy drones and electronic components from us because Europe introduced a taboo
              1. FM-78
                FM-78 April 2 2016 22: 16
                +52
                Israel doesn’t have much that exists in Russia, and you won’t be able to measure ***** if Russia hadn’t had Israel or drones.
                1. skrabplus.ru
                  skrabplus.ru April 3 2016 00: 27
                  +4
                  Speaking Russia, you probably had in mind the USSR
                  1. FM-78
                    FM-78 April 3 2016 03: 02
                    +12
                    No. I spoke only about Russia. Although Israel appeared thanks to the USSR.
                2. Lex.
                  Lex. April 4 2016 21: 03
                  +2
                  if it weren’t for Russia, there was neither Israel, nor drones. Oh, okay, Russia sided with it then the USSR was in Russia after the Soviet Union and the whole Soviet legacy wasn’t invented
              2. solovald
                solovald April 4 2016 06: 33
                +11
                "... And we have gas in our apartment, and you? ..." - children, damn it. :))
              3. Turkir
                Turkir April 4 2016 13: 54
                +1
                You can also learn the opinion of the American side
                http://warfiles.ru/show-113709-foreign-policy-putinskie-udarnye-vertolety-pobezh
                dayut-v-siriyskoy-voyne.html
              4. otter.1
                otter.1 April 4 2016 14: 58
                +2
                Ah ... Ah ... Ah ... Ah ... you don’t have such a site, there are few trees, there’s not much land ... I don’t even know how to spoil anything else, well, well ... you still get the line.
              5. Gogia
                Gogia April 4 2016 16: 24
                +4
                In a year or two, we will have such drummers that it will be very difficult for you to do ... And if it weren’t for your cunning comrades with their bribes, our drones would have let out their own ... And, by the way, the entire Israeli military-industrial complex should 70% be grateful to the USSR, 20% to their special services that stole other people's secrets and only 10% to their indigenous comrades ...
                1. abrakadabre
                  abrakadabre April 4 2016 20: 06
                  +4
                  and only 10% to their indigenous comrades ...
                  Eeee ... what are you talking about? What are the root? Indigenous to the Palestinians. The rest all came in large numbers in the 20th century.
              6. Old old
                Old old April 5 2016 22: 45
                +2
                And you don’t have drone drone like Israel and you buy drones and electronic components from us because Europe introduced a taboo

                Percussion, I’m shocking that when the REB is turned on, they hit the ground?
                One is offset by the other. Our OTR among the NATO people causes a tantrum.
          2. mihasik
            mihasik April 2 2016 22: 22
            +12
            Quote: Lex.
            There they showed a shell of 20 mm of, but for example, if a tungsten carbide core, then the result would be different

            And if you shoot a 30 mm Ka-52 gun on the Apache? The result will be "Scribe to Apache" or "Not everything is so simple in Crimea"?))))
            1. DimerVladimer
              DimerVladimer April 4 2016 09: 44
              +6
              What a naive view!
              30 mm high power gun, designed to fire at ground targets - to penetrate lightly armored targets.
              Getting into a fast moving helicopter is very difficult, and the rate of fire is not the same. To defeat air targets designed guided missile weapons.
              1. yehat
                yehat April 4 2016 15: 39
                +1
                What is the problem?
                the helicopter is not so fast. the projectile speed of modern 30 and 20mm guns is very high. Accuracy is excellent. It strikes at 4-5 kilometers almost like a laser - where it was aimed, it got there, even with a low rate of fire.
                Yes, getting into a moving target is not easy, you need a lead, but firstly, a helmet-mounted sight can give a lead with a lead, and secondly, at small distances, you can even aim at the eye. Often a helicopter generally hangs or barely creeps, because almost motionless target. Or do you think that usually a helicopter rushes at a speed of 200-300km / h?
              2. mihasik
                mihasik April 4 2016 17: 04
                +2
                Quote: DimerVladimer
                What a naive view!

                Well, here we are so naive!)) Why is it that our helicopters "on breakdown" are tested with a 20 mm projectile from a NATO helicopter gun, but we still won't get out of our 30mm?))) Who is naive?))
              3. adept666
                adept666 April 5 2016 07: 02
                +2
                Getting into a fast moving helicopter is very difficult, and the rate of fire is not the same. To defeat air targets designed guided missile weapons.

                Read this:
                http://frederick-taer.livejournal.com/24749.html

                realize that you are a little mistaken. smile hi
          3. Gogia
            Gogia April 4 2016 16: 16
            +1
            30 mm is even better. Shooting is carried out from a distance of 50-100 m. 7,62 and 12,7 BZ.
            Shooting from 23 and 30 mm is carried out from a distance of 1000 m. In real execution, especially on a condition of a flat terrain, helicopters begin to peel from a greater distance. Nobody wants to let this crap get closer. It is not necessary to argue that the Apache acrylic armor is better than metal-ceramic. Only missiles from LongBow take away - that's for sure ....
            1. yehat
              yehat April 4 2016 18: 11
              +1
              long bow is not designed to withstand fire from the ground.
              all that he was prepared for was a random queue from Kalash
              or a small chance to escape from MANPADS fire
              but even then, there was a case in the bay when Apaches were shot down with one single shot from AK.
              the main emphasis is that this machine will operate outside the zone of destruction of small arms, heavy machine guns and, perhaps, even small-caliber guns. with great intelligence support.
              And the Ka-52 and 50 are designed for what can be ambushed and survive. Especially in the mountains, when the shooter can be very close.
          4. VIK_1961
            VIK_1961 28 June 2016 16: 03
            0
            There are no BT shells (solid-hull or sub-caliber) made of tungsten carbide alloy in the 23-mm c / c. They were developed "to see what happens" in the 1980s. And then this was the stage of the "Techproject" (at the expense of the developer enterprise), these developments did not go further. And the material there was different. The 30-mm BP shells 3UBR7 and 3UBR8 were adopted in the late 1980s, but this is a 30-mm caliber. There are also tungsten carbide and other heavy alloys.
        2. SG11
          SG11 April 2 2016 20: 49
          +2
          and why should I put a person there ?? why so extreme?
          1. kamski
            kamski April 4 2016 17: 58
            0
            a person cannot sit there in such trials. just left a helicopter helmet
            1. adept666
              adept666 April 5 2016 06: 28
              0
              a person cannot sit there in such trials. just left a helicopter helmet
              No, there is a real test pilot. Mannequins do not check their penetration with their hands from the inside immediately after the shot. smile
            2. wolk71
              wolk71 6 June 2016 20: 03
              +1
              Quote: kamski
              a person cannot sit there in such trials. just left a helicopter helmet
              This is an armor designer sitting laughing
        3. FM-78
          FM-78 April 2 2016 22: 10
          +1
          Well done! Better than any words, if you could put 2 pluses.
        4. nesvobodnye
          nesvobodnye April 3 2016 02: 20
          +5
          Kill me, but I can’t understand why the tester is there while shooting!
          1. Gogia
            Gogia April 4 2016 16: 26
            0
            His position is - "Game" wassat
        5. nesvobodnye
          nesvobodnye April 3 2016 02: 20
          0
          Kill me, but I can’t understand why the tester is there while shooting!
          1. adept666
            adept666 April 3 2016 17: 14
            +13
            Kill me, but I can’t understand why the tester is there while shooting!
            Because this is a pounding video for foreign leads wink (advertising, and unrealistically cool agree, but the risk is minimal, and the tester can understand the feeling when hit), before that there were naturally a lot of shelling without a crew, when they just did the car, we Russian guys are desperate of course, but not scumbags laughing
        6. abrakadabre
          abrakadabre April 4 2016 19: 53
          +1
          Stunned. There, during a test bombardment, the dude sits inside. Harshly.
      2. Cap.Morgan
        Cap.Morgan April 2 2016 16: 57
        +2
        Quote: Lex.
        Well, why can't he not all in armor at what distance they shoot at him. Any kind of armor happens, for example, ceramic it is lighter and harder than steel

        Ceramic incidentally is more stable when meeting a projectile normal ....
    3. opus
      opus April 2 2016 12: 57
      +23
      Quote: cast iron
      The author of the Ka52 armor wrote nonsense. Aviation armor cannot repel anti-aircraft gun fire. God grant if 12,7mm

      The curved side glazing of the Ka-52 pilot's cabin withstands hits of 12,7-mm caliber bullets, additional protection is provided by overhead side armor plates. Additional protection is provided by placing the pilots side by side, thereby, they cover each other from fragments of shells and missiles flying from the side. This sounding cruel principle is the brainchild of General Designer S. Mikheev. This approach increases the likelihood that at least one crew member will survive the explosion of enemy ammunition on the side of the helicopter. With the traditional arrangement of pilots, the risk to them is much higher.


      the nose of the helicopter is protected from shells of caliber up to 20 mm, the mass of armor in the Ka-52 set is less than on a tandem-type helicopter with the same protection. Additional protection covers the most vulnerable parts of the helicopter: for example, the propeller blades withstand the impact of 20 mm shells. Other safety measures include the proven ejection seats for K-37-800 pilots (also mounted on a single Ka-50), which ensure that both pilots leave the helicopter at the same time. In an emergency landing, the crew's chances of survival are enhanced by a combination of a hard energy-absorbing chassis and shockproof seats.

      Not KA-52, but you can estimate the thickness of the glasses, at 52 the same


      Mi-28 taking into account Afghanistan:

      Ka-50 and Mi-28, taking into account Chechnya

      KA-52 is NOT armored side glazing (compared to 50), but this is due to ejection. Steel armor plates are the outer part of the fuselage. The second layer is lumin (variations based on it). As well as at 50. And surround the entire cabin




      Israeli test pilot Eyal Jaffe after flying on a Ka-52. Impressions:
    4. ANANATOLY PAULOV
      ANANATOLY PAULOV April 2 2016 16: 15
      +18
      I saw the test of the armor with my own eyes, but I'll make a reservation, it was the K-50 "Black Shark" hull. fired from a ballistic barrel, VYa-23 shells. Distance 150 meters. I had a shell that looked like a fungus for a long time.
    5. sabakina
      sabakina April 2 2016 16: 37
      +17
      Quote: cast iron
      The author of the Ka52 armor wrote nonsense. Aviation armor cannot repel anti-aircraft gun fire. God forbid, if it reflects 12,7 mm, then that is not a fact. A helicopter with armored plates cannot weigh like a heavy infantry fighting vehicle.

      At one time I read an article in the Rossiyskaya Gazeta (2 Chechen times), so the military there directly said: "Everything that is shown in the film" Black Shark "is all true"!
      The phrase from the movie as a keepsake:
      - "Look! And DShK survived!" ...
    6. avia1991
      avia1991 April 2 2016 21: 58
      +4
      Quote: cast iron
      Aviation armor cannot repel anti-aircraft gun fire

      I recommend watching the video of the attacks on the Mi-28 .. The Alligator is at least as well protected.
      And in general, the statement "cannot be" is better used if you have confirmed facts on hand. hi
    7. derik1970
      derik1970 April 3 2016 10: 53
      -17%
      The Ka52 has a BMP gun, heavy ... you have to do your own gun ... and maneuver with a funnel of nonsense if everything else was pulled over the ears ... they are no match ... neither electronics nor weapons ... the idea was good ... By the way, ceramic armor plates are only once, one shelling, they fall apart and then need to be changed ... I think they won’t be able to get there ... A helicopter is not a tank for sure ... And as they say the war will show who was right! hi
      1. max702
        max702 April 3 2016 11: 44
        +7
        Quote: derik1970
        The Ka52 has a BMP gun, heavy ... you have to do your own gun.

        Nothing needs to be changed, the gun is just suitable simple and reliable, and weighs less than the Apachev’s one that is 30mm, and not 20 mm as indicated in the article, plus this solution is unified with ground equipment for both ammunition and maintenance ..
        1. Basarev
          Basarev April 3 2016 14: 49
          +3
          And yet Apache's electronics are a cut above ours, and this is a decisive advantage. What can you talk about if the banal principle of "fire and forget" is not strong enough?
          1. hrough
            hrough April 3 2016 18: 30
            +3
            Quote: Basarev
            all the same, Apache’s electronics are head and shoulders above ours, and this is a decisive advantage

            The main goal of helicopters, all the same, is ground-based. And in the fight against a ground enemy, armor has a greater effect on survivability than electronics. IMHO
            1. Basarev
              Basarev April 3 2016 21: 38
              -2
              Armor is the last line of defense. Advanced electronics, advanced detection systems, allow you to recognize the enemy far beyond its radius of destruction. Of course, this gives a very significant increase in survivability. But Apache’s is already a reality, but we still rely on armor, because the electronics are backward.
              1. wolfhound
                wolfhound April 4 2016 07: 38
                +4
                probably you yourself took part in the database on both Apache and KA52, since you so authoritatively declare that it determines the most likely implementation of the task? And compare the range of tasks to be solved by these helicopters
                1. Basarev
                  Basarev April 4 2016 09: 45
                  +2
                  In any case, I would prefer to shoot from afar and from shelter, and then leave undetected than to stagger on the front end under fire.
                  1. hrough
                    hrough April 4 2016 16: 31
                    +1
                    Quote: Basarev
                    In any case, I would prefer to shoot bullets from afar and then leave undetected

                    Well, this is when you need to knock out a couple of units of armored vehicles. He hid behind a fold of terrain, spotted a target radar, gave missiles target designation, jumped out from behind cover, fired and went home ...
                    And when it is necessary to comb through a square where the radar has nothing to catch on, and to calculate and cover in the brigade a detachment of partisans with small arms. Great risk of getting a response.
      2. Turkir
        Turkir April 4 2016 13: 14
        +1
        A helicopter is not a tank for sure ..

        We noticed this too ..
        The helicopter moves much faster. sad
        1. yehat
          yehat April 4 2016 15: 41
          +1
          not so much
          new tanks are worn at 80-90kmch, the speed is already of the same scale
          moreover, a video from Iraq shows how difficult it is even to get a missile into a dodging tank in a commonplace desert.
    8. Name classified
      Name classified April 4 2016 17: 11
      +1
      According to the combat experience of the Mi-24 in Afghanistan - how lucky. It could penetrate 12.7mm, it could only scratch 23mm - it depends on many factors, including, apparently, luck.
      But I strongly doubt that during the creation of the attack helicopter this experience was not analyzed or made worse than it was once on the Crocodile.
    9. kamski
      kamski April 4 2016 17: 52
      0
      reporters love to write nonsense. Soon she will be dressed in tank armor
  2. Dam
    Dam April 2 2016 00: 48
    +37
    For most of the other countries, the price is not an indicator, and the quality too! They a priori will not be able to buy our equipment, NATO will not allow it. And for third world countries, 16 million is also very much. But he takes pride in the car and does not need to sell them, at least until his aircraft are completely saturated.
    1. Foxmara
      Foxmara April 4 2016 08: 13
      +1
      and feed the military-industrial complex with what? Our orders alone? There are many factors, including political. DO NOT just isolate, otherwise the tape will end))
  3. Greyhound famously
    Greyhound famously April 2 2016 01: 23
    +7
    It is, of course, understandable that every sandpiper praises his own swamp ... But the Indians, as a non-biased side (at least, they will not be able to reproach them with bias towards Russian weapons), chose the Apache.
    So there is still much to be sought by domestic designers.
    1. rubidiy
      rubidiy April 2 2016 03: 11
      +35
      Quote: Grizzled Dashing
      they chose "Apache".

      we must understand the grave consequences of the devastation that we perpetrated in the 90s. We never wondered why we Indians are making the 155-mm version of the Msta-S self-propelled howitzer, and not under our 152mm shell ???
      The same problem with the KA-52: a distinctive feature of the latest generation of attack helicopters is the emphasis on the use of guided missiles, and with their release we had problems that we managed to overcome only recently. And even then, the Concern "Kalashnikov" was able (honor and praise) to arrange the release of the Vikhr-1 ATGM guided by a laser beam. That is, the principle of "fire and forget" has not yet been achieved. Achievement of this principle will be possible with the development of missiles 9M227M1, 9M227F, 9M227O-2, 9M227M2. And this is not soon.
      In addition, the KA-52 didn’t really have time to fight anywhere, but the same cannot be said about Apache, who had fought and was probably refined in comparison with the original versions.
      1. Revolver
        Revolver April 2 2016 06: 07
        +15
        And another small detail is the location of the radar. At Apache, it is higher, above the rotor, i.e. he can hide behind elements of the landscape, exposing only radar, and shoot rockets of the enemy’s armor. KA-52 to get the same review you need to expose yourself entirely to the public, and it is quite possible to review it through the sights of a thread like ZU-23 or Stinger.
        1. opus
          opus April 2 2016 13: 13
          +13
          Quote: Nagan
          At Apache, it is higher, above the rotor, i.e. he can hide behind elements of the landscape, exposing only radar, and shoot rockets of the enemy’s armor. KA-52 for receiving


          Give a little time



          overhead antenna radar and dorsal "ball" GOES-451 radar "Arbalet-52"

          Radar crossbow installed on all new Ka-52, having a gray color:


          Mi-28N 36 "yellow" with a "ball":






          -------------------------------
          There are (were) some problems with vibration and "shortage" of components
        2. venik
          venik April 2 2016 14: 02
          +32
          Well, first of all, the Apache radar is not aimed, but SURVEY !!! It is intended not for guidance, but for flight support at night and in adverse weather conditions! He takes aim anyway with the help of the OES (located in the bow), which means he still has to "protrude" completely. This time!

          Secondly, in order to install the nad-bag radar, you need a hollow screw axis and pass the power and data buses through it. And the Alligator already has a complicated economy (one axis rotates inside the other), which means installing such a radar above the propellers means redesigning the entire load-bearing part and significantly increasing the cost of the structure (although the experiments are going how successfully - I don't know)
          1. opus
            opus April 2 2016 14: 40
            +3
            Quote: venik
            Well, first of all, the Apache radar is not aimed, but SURVEY !!!

            belay

            AN / APG-78 Longbow Fire control radar for AGM-114L LONGBOW Missile


            Range 8 km to 12 km "fire and forget"

            It has no "other" radar


            Well + of course:


            Quote: venik
            Secondly, to install an over-the-fly radar, the axis of the screw is hollow and the power and data buses must be passed through it.

            -You can't sideways? BUSH (screw axis and so hollow: rod for bending, compression works the same way as a pipe, if not worse)



            There are more problems with cooling.

            -U KA52 just the sleeve is longer, it is understandable, bending moments, vibrations
            1. venik
              venik April 2 2016 16: 26
              +18
              "There's no catch, Herr Peter!" ("Tobacco Captain") although of course I got excited about calling the AN / APG-78 survey, not sighting. Although there are a number of reasons for this, namely:

              "Apache" as the main weapon uses ATGM AGM-114A "Hellfire" and AGM-114K "Hellfire-2" and AGM-114L "Hellfire-Longbow" which are implemented in which semi-active laser ("A" and "K") modifications and active radar ("L") seeker.
              In the first two cases, it is necessary, at least, to "jump" to the height of the TADS optoelectronic head and missile homing heads that ensure the capture of the target. In this case, the azimuth of the target is determined with the help of a supraphtulo radar, which of course reduces the "jump" time, but does not mean that this maneuver can be abandoned in principle!
              As for the AGM-114L, here too, the radar data is used only for target selection by the missile's homing head !!! Those. the radar does not participate in DIRECT aiming of the weapon at the target. And again, you can't do without a "jump".
              As for the experimental JAGM rocket, it is not yet clear whether it will have functions that allow it to shoot from behind an obstacle without protruding completely?
              =====
              As for the coaxial overhead radars for helicopters, I did not even claim that this is, in principle, impossible! It is just that the already very complex coaxial scheme becomes even more complicated. I am not talking about problems with over-sleeve devices (both RL and OE). The States have been bringing them to their senses since the mid-70s of the last century. And then the question arises, "Is it worth the candle?"
              In general, over-trunk schemes are good in conditions of urban battle, rocky terrain, or to the edge of the Central European theater of operations (copse groves). In the conditions of the Middle East, for example, there is not much use from them.
              1. opus
                opus April 2 2016 17: 03
                +3
                Quote: venik
                at least "bounce"

                jump SO and NECESSARY!
                from that position

                UR (or NUR FSU ...) can be released only into the hill (under the cockpit).
                The key here is the reaction time of the air defense system to the helicopter.
                that's all.
                Quote: venik
                As for the AGM-114L, here too, the radar data is used only for selection

                Clear GOS Stump from Marconi Electronic Systems - active seeker millimeter range. GOS is characterized by high noise immunity, resolution and accuracy due to the narrow radiation pattern of the antenna. The range of the GOS from 12 to 16 km
                Azimuth, range gives AN / APG-78, FCR processes the radar data, they are transmitted to the head of the AGSN via the bus.


                Search for targets using the TADS sighting system or over-the-barrel AN / APG-78 firing control radar
                Quote: venik
                JAGM - it’s not yet clear whether it will have functions that allow you to shoot from behind

                will not be

                Quote: venik
                And then the question arises, "Is it worth the candle?

                worth it.SAM, radar, the time of its reaction, etc.
                Rumor has it that they are working on lobed radar(there is a mat apparatus and another theory)
                Quote: venik
                In the conditions of the Middle East, for example, there is not much use from them.

                over the fields of Ukraine, yes it makes no sense, in the steppes of Tyura-Tam, too.
                Above the dunes of the Sahara, in Syria, Israel is still standing
                1. venik
                  venik April 2 2016 18: 43
                  +13
                  My friend! But where are you in Syria dunes that you saw? Yes, they are not there !! In Lebanon too! There is only a rocky desert, flat as a plate and gentle hills. Yes, sir !! And because of the gentle hills it is impossible to stick out the sub-radar radar, and it is also impossible to stick out the whole thing yourself - it is practically impossible, no matter how narrow the orientation is (no one has canceled the side lobes, so that such interference comes from the gentle crest - my mother is not distressed) !) Yes, plus even the highest dust content at very low altitudes ...
                  The Israelis in the early 80s in Lebanon also acted because of the hills, so they had to "jump" by 50 meters, or even 100 meters from behind the ridge! So, I don't really expect any special advantages of "nadfulochnik" over "nasal" radars (and in the sandy area - too!).
                  The city and the forest-steppe zone - yes! Here it may work.
                  In addition - it is necessary to take into account the tactics of application. The Yankees and allies are betting on ambush actions (bounced-hid) worked out for Center.-Heb. Theater, and we have a modern Union attack helicopters used hl.obr. like attack aircraft (directly hanging over the Bosko!).
                  So it seems to me that all this fuss with "nadtulochniki" unreasonably untwisted (although of course there is some sense from them, especially in specific conditions). Fortunately, the history of weapons is simply replete with "innovations" which later turned out to be not very much in demand.
                  Well, I just don’t think that "nadvtulochniki" give a cardinal advantage over a conventional radar. Moreover, a serious antenna cannot be placed above the hub (unlike the cockpit)
                  1. opus
                    opus April 2 2016 19: 35
                    0
                    Quote: venik
                    But where are you in Syria dunes that you saw?

                    "Mother" - mulberry, mulberry
                    Arabian desert

                    There are still heights (Golan)

                    Marie Village

                    + cities and villages (the same Palmyra)

                    1. opus
                      opus April 2 2016 19: 39
                      +3
                      Quote: venik
                      no one has yet canceled the side lobes, so that such interference comes from a gentle crest - do not worry about mom!

                      Ioptyt .... I (or rather a complex) in 1989 without looking sorted the "interference" from the petals that were reflected from the hills.
                      And DON AN / APG-78 is not worth remembering.

                      Do the blades of the "bow" "lateral" radar station interfere? DON petals don't flicker on PT?


                      Quote: venik
                      Well, I just don’t think that "nadvtulochniki" give a cardinal advantage over a conventional radar. Moreover, a serious antenna cannot be placed above the hub (unlike the cockpit)

                      1.Time will tell
                      2. And where on the helicopter to place the "serious"?

                      And how do they differ from frivolous?
                    2. venik
                      venik April 2 2016 20: 22
                      +4
                      At the expense of the Arabian desert - was not, I do not know, but about the Golan and do not remind !!! You are them, as I understood only in the I-net and saw - in the pictures!

                      As for "sorting" - at what station, where was the antenna located, at what height? How long did it take to rebuild? And also sand and dust, which not only interfere with a low-power station, but also "clog" all optoelectronics?
                      How do "serious" differ from "frivolous"? So only the detection range (for example, targets such as "tank"). By "serious" I mean deto-so km.40-50 and more. With the current state of the art, such a HEADLIGHT can only be placed in the cockpit or "under the belly", although in this case dead zones of the airspace are inevitable. "The bushier avoids this.
                    3. igorka357
                      igorka357 April 3 2016 17: 44
                      +1
                      Listen Anton, all my life I thought that the dunes are made up of sand marked by the wind, in your photos I’m not a single dune, for myself I don’t watch wink !
            2. aiw
              aiw April 2 2016 19: 48
              0
              It is possible from the side, but there is a problem - there the blades move hi

              By topology, the tires are only centered. You can of course also establish a wireless connection, there is a wi-fi which thread wassat
              1. opus
                opus April 2 2016 20: 06
                +1
                Quote: aiw
                It is possible from the side, but there is a problem - there the blades move

                it meant "sideways" - they move together with the shaft (sleeve)
                current collection / t-transmission, on a sliding bus (like brushes on an electric motor)
                Quote: aiw
                You can of course also establish a wireless connection, there is a wi-fi which thread

                enough induction
                ===============================================

                And so ...




                Everything is

                Quote: Mayday1981
                It is not necessary to redo the design - there power supply wires for anti-icing of the blades and power supply for the contour lights routinely pass.


                Quote: venik
                But just where to shove new ones? And the center of gravity of this whole structure will change (the antenna weighs something) - it means to redesign everything!

                1. For a good cause, there is a place
                2. The mass ("weighs") is insignificant, all the weight is below.

                Compared to mass and moments (torque, bending), vibrations that give the blades it's ugh
                1. aiw
                  aiw April 2 2016 21: 47
                  +1
                  > it meant "side" - they move together with the shaft (bushing)
                  current collection / t-transmission, on a sliding bus (like brushes on an electric motor)

                  OK. There is really a sensation that for weakness (not power but a signal), such contacts will not be ice. But I can’t vouch, probably solved.

                  By moments of inertia and vibration, you are certainly right.
            3. yehat
              yehat April 3 2016 16: 28
              -1
              there is one "but". there is a difference between advertised performance characteristics and real ones. Why am I?
              Think of Tomcat F14 aircraft and phoenix rockets. Cool, but in reality what?
              Pilots do not even use them in training; there is no experience of real launches. The rocket itself is extremely expensive and accuracy is poor.
              It’s the same with helfires: yes, there are homing ones and all that, but ... how many are there?
              What are the possibilities of replenishing them, how many are in stock? What is resistance to electronic warfare?
              What is the difference in accuracy compared to laser illumination from a helicopter?
              The fact that radio-controlled helphires with the principle of let-forget put on the longbow Apache does not mean at all that the problem is closed. Backlight systems have their own merits.
              Most of the new tanks are equipped with powerful jamming and decoy systems, smoke curtain systems and radiation detectors. Missiles like missed-and-forgot have certain problems with defeating such targets and utopia that the Apache has hidden - so far it remains just a beautiful bluff. YES, Apache is now archieffective against makeshift machine gun SUVs.
              But with other goals, things are not so simple.
          2. Mayday1981
            Mayday1981 April 2 2016 18: 26
            +2
            It is not necessary to redo the design - there power supply wires for anti-icing of the blades and power supply for the contour lights routinely pass.
            1. venik
              venik April 2 2016 19: 01
              0
              Yeah !! Fit! But just where to shove new ones? And the center of gravity of this whole structure will change (the antenna weighs something) - it means to redesign everything! With a uniaxial design, it went nowhere, but coaxial - it is nowhere more complicated!
        3. rubidiy
          rubidiy April 2 2016 19: 01
          +6
          Quote: Nagan
          And another small detail - the location of the radar

          Firstly, the Apache MI-28 scheme is being done. Yes, the over-the-body radar will only appear on the MI-28MN.
          Secondly, the hang-up tactic itself is a publicized fallacy. You can not apply it as often as it seems. In real combat conditions, in the presence of ZU-23-2 or stingers with needles and Apaches, and our attack helicopters are pressed to the ground and survive at the expense of speed.
          Thirdly, it is not entirely correct to compare KA-52 with helicopters made according to the classical scheme. They have different advantages and abilities.
      2. timothy61
        timothy61 April 2 2016 07: 32
        +1
        The Ka-50 in Chechnya fought well, they didn’t want to let them go after the trip dates. The Ka-52 is much better
        1. Ingvar 72
          Ingvar 72 April 2 2016 20: 12
          +5
          Quote: timothy61
          .Ka-52 is much better than Ka-50

          You can’t pose the question like that. In what is better, but in something worse. Flight characteristics of the Ka-50 will be better.
          1. max702
            max702 April 3 2016 11: 58
            +4
            Quote: Ingvar 72
            . Flight characteristics of the Ka-50 will be better.

            This is an absolute fact! And the cessation of the release of KA-50 I think state treason! am there were problems with navigation for this purpose, and you need a second crew member, or a target designation helicopter, but that was in the 80s, and now there are no problems with it .. So it's time to revise this machine at a new technological level and go to the troops! Ultimately, this will save billions of state money and the lives of pilots (-1 crew) and those who are on the ground (due to better performance of the combat mission) ..
            1. yehat
              yehat April 3 2016 16: 35
              +1
              it was supposed that the ka-52s would be the leaders of the easier drum groups - the ka-50 and mi-28, mi-31. They will coordinate actions, give target designation. request
              1. 1c-inform-city
                1c-inform-city April 4 2016 14: 55
                0
                Ka 50. More complex and expensive helicopter. Since the second person worked expensive automation. (one of the reasons for creating a cheaper project).
          2. NEXUS
            NEXUS April 3 2016 16: 42
            +2
            Quote: Ingvar 72
            Flight characteristics of the Ka-50 will be better.

            What is the comparison about? A shark is a single drummer, and an Alligator is a two-shot attack helicopter team. It was originally thought that the Alligator would be a command strike complex, guiding the actions of the Sharks in the wing.
            And the fact that the KA-50 was hacked to death and it did not go to the troops, but is only produced for the needs of special forces, so it is necessary to say thank you to the Mil. Design Bureau Mil did not want to let the Kamovites "into their garden", who were engaged in naval topics all the way.
      3. mav1971
        mav1971 April 2 2016 13: 36
        +15
        Quote: rubidiy
        Concern "Kalashnikov" was able (honor and praise to him) to organize the release of ATGM Vikhr-1, guided by a laser beam ...


        Stop singing praises to the filthy management and filthy design team.
        Fucked 5 billion state money and did nothing.
        Only successful PR managers could be found. that are strewn with nightingales.
        And as they ask for the matter, this is how it turns out:

        July 16 2015 year.
        Single day of acceptance of military products
        Meeting with the President of the Russian Federation.
        http://www.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/50005
        Report to the president.
        "The Kirov plant" Mayak "did not supply 326 guided missiles" Vikhr-1 ". The manufactured materiel did not pass the tests, the characteristics were not confirmed. The catch-up schedules of the enterprise were disrupted.
        A similar situation has developed with regard to the supply of Vikhr-1 missiles by the Kalashnikov concern. 1972 guided missiles not delivered. Reasons: poor processing of design documentation and failure to carry out full-fledged measures for putting into production. "

        Those. all that could be crap - everything was crap.
        1. venik
          venik April 2 2016 16: 42
          +4
          And I would not get so excited, "everyone fucked up ... everyone fucked up ..." Do you think there were no problems with new equipment during the Soviet era ?? Haha !! And the "sworn friends" are not so smooth! What time will they smell with the F-35 and it is not clear when they will bring it "to mind" and will it be finished at all?
          1. Ingvar 72
            Ingvar 72 April 2 2016 20: 13
            +3
            Quote: venik
            And the "sworn friends" are not so smooth!

            But they have a privatization adviser for Chubais, and we have a redhead in the wild. request
            1. venik
              venik April 2 2016 21: 01
              +3
              Yes, yes !!!
              Although this does not save them much - they have their own "redheads". You don't transplant everyone - the profit business lives on !!
          2. yehat
            yehat April 3 2016 16: 37
            +1
            there are other problems - they can not establish production according to the finished documentation, there is a 100% payment. it's like a shame.
            The system and rules of public procurement add to pepper when buying the cheapest offers, which are usually nonsense, is provoked - either the quality is wrong or the possibility of delivery is fictitious.
        2. rubidiy
          rubidiy April 2 2016 18: 51
          +1
          Quote: mav1971
          "The Kirov plant" Mayak "did not supply 326 guided missiles" Vikhr-1 ". The manufactured materiel did not pass the tests, the characteristics were not confirmed. The catch-up schedules of the enterprise were disrupted.

          Well, you yourself re-read your message and admit that you are bombing. Do you think you're the only one so knowledgeable ??? laughing Everyone in the know for a long time. And we are writing this with you already in April 2016. But by this time the problems had been resolved, and the Whirlwind-1 party entered the army. It seems to you that it doesn’t fit into your head that the production of high-tech equipment is a matter of a lot of problems. Problems to be addressed. Imagine ... on its own the first time nothing worked. It happens when people do something, rather than criticize.
          1. mav1971
            mav1971 April 2 2016 23: 31
            +1
            Quote: rubidiy
            Quote: mav1971
            "The Kirov plant" Mayak "did not supply 326 guided missiles" Vikhr-1 ". The manufactured materiel did not pass the tests, the characteristics were not confirmed. The catch-up schedules of the enterprise were disrupted.

            Well, you yourself re-read your message and admit that you are bombing. Do you think you're the only one so knowledgeable ??? laughing Everyone in the know for a long time. And we are writing this with you already in April of 2016. And by this time the problems had been resolved, and the Whirlwind-1 party entered the army.


            If you give a link this year. about what was the entry into the army - I will tell you many thanks1

            But from the report to the president it is clear that the design documentation has not been worked out, the tests do not pass, the production line has not been created, production has not begun.
            From where. six months later, everything appeared?
            One bolt was finished and everything "succeeded" with a wave of the wand?
            I do not believe.
            He worked at several enterprises.
            Any action is months of approval.
            Lapping - years.
            And the mild diagnosis described in the report is on the 2-3 year of the rush.
            1. max702
              max702 April 3 2016 12: 18
              0
              "Whirlwinds" quite successfully worked in the 90s and on tests in Chechnya fully confirmed their characteristics, and the fact that they pissed off the plant and the technology for their production is nothing surprising. D. Zemlyakov: Comrade Supreme Commander-in-Chief!

              In 2015, four Ka-573 attack and combat helicopters equipped with ground handling equipment were put into service at the 52 Army Aviation Base. By helicopter new missiles of the "Whirlwind" type were used, capable of hitting both ground and air targets.
              http://www.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/51496 Это с последнего дня единой приемки.. Как вы думаете стал бы Д.Земляков вводить в заблуждение( врать) верховному главнокомандующему? А из этих заявлений следует что проблемы решены..
              1. mav1971
                mav1971 April 3 2016 17: 14
                0
                Quote: max702
                "Whirlwinds" quite successfully worked in the 90s and on tests in Chechnya fully confirmed their characteristics, and the fact that they pissed off the plant and the technology for their production is nothing surprising. D. Zemlyakov: Comrade Supreme Commander-in-Chief!

                In 2015, four Ka-573 attack and combat helicopters equipped with ground handling equipment were put into service at the 52 Army Aviation Base. By helicopter new missiles of the "Whirlwind" type were used, capable of hitting both ground and air targets.
                http://www.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/51496 Это с последнего дня единой приемки.. Как вы думаете стал бы Д.Земляков вводить в заблуждение( врать) верховному главнокомандующему? А из этих заявлений следует что проблемы решены..


                The text deals with the supply of helicopters and a description of these very helicopters.
                not a word about the supply of missiles — no.
                Read carefully - just a listing of common words - "water is poured" if ours is simple.
                new missiles of the Whirlwind type were used.
                ejection seats are used.
                etc.
                Do you understand the wording?
                If you do not accept my explanation - I will not be offended.
                But there are no Whirlwind-1 missiles in the troops. At least 2000 pieces. what should have been delivered by the end of the 2015 year is simply not.
                Only single samples. For acquaintance. Half-layouts.
          2. yehat
            yehat April 3 2016 16: 40
            0
            the problem is different - they make a batch of products according to the READY documentation and the manufacturer’s quality control does not work corny.
    2. timothy61
      timothy61 April 2 2016 07: 24
      +14
      India chose Apache instead of Mi-28ne. Ka-52 is not exported.
      1. mav1971
        mav1971 April 2 2016 23: 34
        0
        Quote: timothy61
        India chose Apache instead of Mi-28ne. Ka-52 is not exported.


        Well, you don’t know. do not speak.

        Can't Egypt sell 50 helicopters?
      2. yehat
        yehat April 3 2016 16: 42
        0
        India chose Apache, because this machine has been exported for a long time and its operation is underway, and the Ka-50, Ka-52 and new Mil cars remain a dark horse.
        Probably, after Syria, the situation will change somewhat, but not dramatically.
    3. Vadim42
      Vadim42 April 2 2016 16: 00
      +2
      It has been difficult to understand Indians in general in their choice lately. With the same Ukraine.
      1. venik
        venik April 2 2016 16: 50
        +4
        Indians just understand and not so difficult!
        The Mi-28 had a lot of "childhood diseases". Yes, and he has problems, as I understand it, with the on-board computer complex and weapons: "Shturm" and "Attack" are too old (still Soviet developments), and "Whirlwind" is late ...
  4. tomket
    tomket April 2 2016 01: 36
    +15
    "Shark" was actually buried completely in the days of Putin. Oddly enough it sounds, but during the so-called "perestroika" "Shark" won the Mi-28A in the competition. And in the days of Yeltsin, they even began to produce it in small batches. Of course, our MO has little merit in that, because it initially relied on its "favorite" Mi-28. And "Alligator" went into series under the then fashionable theme of "anti-terrorist" special equipment, and then Libya began, and our leadership got an insight that they would have to fight not only with terrorists.
    1. ISSIDOR
      ISSIDOR April 2 2016 08: 45
      +11
      He talked with the pilot flying the Ka-50, according to him, the machine is too complicated in combat use for one person, so there is nothing strange in that she was buried.
      1. Just BB
        Just BB April 2 2016 14: 39
        +5
        So he was probably taught on the Mi-2! Of course it’s hard for him!
        In the same spirit, the same pilot-commanders and "buried" the Ka-50 in the 80s.
        But in reality, on the same Mi-24P, the pilot himself, with the exception of ATGMs, controls both the machine and weapons, the operator only pokes a finger at the card if he does not sleep ....
    2. maai
      maai April 2 2016 14: 57
      +2
      Nobody buried anything! This is the wrong word. There are hard times ...
      But! He (ka-50) perfectly reincarnated in ka-52 and there is nothing to cry about. The car just won.
      They buried the "Caspian monster". This is a pity! Modern materials and engines would suit him perfectly. And amer eyes bulging on his forehead.

      The same T-50 should not be perceived as a final product. This is a "testing ground" which, if necessary, can be used for direct military purposes, including in view of the production prospects. Modern technology requires such a base so that it can then be easily modernized and not developed from scratch.
      Nobody cries because of the Su-47, it's a great car. However, all sane people understand that it was a "test bench" that gave a lot and went aside due to the development and improvement of materials.

      So the tears of the ka-50 are completely incomprehensible when there is a ka-52. Modern equipment and methods of warfare, as well as combat practice based on the shoulder of a comrade, say that two crew members are better than one.
      If a fighter has only one pilot, this does not mean that a helicopter with lower speeds and a huge number of targets under its feet and near-Earth space should also have it.

      The fact that the Indians chose Apache or something else does not mean at all that our Mi-28 is worse than something. They need a light pinwheel from a Hollywood movie bandits to drive - please.
      In the world of arms purchases, it is full of politics and (or) moronism when someone likes something solely because of personal addictions.
      If the Americans fought a serious enemy and survived, their technique would have changed markedly. And so, they can only drive the Middle Ages into the Stone Age. And then with difficulty.
      It is easy to control the population of Indians and saigas with Apache and drones.

      The battlefield always puts everything in its place. And then, quite often, issued by a dull political money bag "M-16" flies into a dirty corner, and an enemy "Kalashnikov" appears in the hands of a NATO fighter. This is clearly seen among people who are at war and who choose their own weapons.

      PS "Weapon defect - the death of a soldier" (By "defect" understand the "failure event", not "the only drawback") :)
      1. Ingvar 72
        Ingvar 72 April 2 2016 20: 16
        +1
        Quote: maai
        He (ka-50) perfectly reincarnated in ka-52

        Nobody reincarnated in anyone. Machines were developed almost simultaneously for a single application concept. The Ka-50 was supposed to be a shock (in the group), and the Ka-52 was a control machine.
      2. max702
        max702 April 3 2016 12: 25
        0
        Quote: maai
        No one is crying because of the su-47, a great car.

        On this occasion, test pilot S. Bogdan said everything with the advent of engines with UVP, the need for a wing with a reverse sweep disappeared .. It really hurts to be difficult to manufacture, UVP gives the airplane everything necessary easier and cheaper .. BUT it is very likely to return to it in the 6th generation aircraft ..
        1. yehat
          yehat April 3 2016 16: 49
          +1
          will not return. The main idea of ​​the reverse sweep wing is the complete absence of flow stall on the wing. With the introduction of engines with a variable thrust vector, flow stall became a problem 2 orders of magnitude less important. And the flaws of the reverse sweep wing are significant. The main one is the resource of the wing itself, its combat survivability: the wing must withstand twisting, and even a pair of holes in the wing can greatly affect stiffness. Well, the price also matters, as well as the versatility of the solution. Perhaps the reverse sweep will be used on new low-altitude attack aircraft, but certainly not on fighter jets.
  5. tomket
    tomket April 2 2016 01: 58
    +9
    Eventually. Now one of the promising directions for the development of attack helicopters in the West is the concept of a single-seat helicopter. That is, what we had in the 80 years and what we refused, blindly imitating the West.
    1. rubidiy
      rubidiy April 2 2016 03: 47
      +20
      something you suffered somewhere in the wrong place. :)
      Imitation of the West is more about MI-28, but not about KB "Kamov". The single-seat KA-50 concept has already been recognized by all as incorrect. It turns out that the KA-50 could effectively act only in the way that our MI-24Ps are now operating in Syria. That in itself is not bad, but we still do not have ATGMs "fired and forgot" and will not soon be. The concept of a single-seat attack helicopter makes sense only if there is such a missile, an automated search and acquisition system for target tracking, which will operate at 360 degrees. The turret with the cannon should also be fully automated so that the pilot only has to make the decision to open fire and press the trigger. Then, in combination with a new helmet, such a helicopter will be able to effectively hit targets that are not directly in the direction of the helicopter. At the same time, the pilot himself will not be greatly distracted from piloting for firing.
      This degree of automation will greatly increase not only the cost of the helicopter itself, but the same ATGMs will cost several times more expensive than the current ones (up to 7 times). At the same time, what to do with goals that cannot be taken for accompaniment is not clear ...
      1. Just BB
        Just BB April 2 2016 06: 28
        +6
        rubidiy RU Today, 03:47 ↑ New
        something you suffered somewhere in the wrong place. :)


        Or maybe it's better to use a drone?

        Who recognized the fallacy of the Ka-50 ??? am I well know the story of how the Ka-50 was strangled in order to push the Mi-28 (the story began with its birth in the 80s) - the single-seat variant was just the "argument", but it's funny: "And if the pilot dies, then the helicopter is gone! And the Mi-28 is a two-seater: the co-pilot will save the car! "
        And you - no ATGMs.
        I always liked the Kamov Design Bureau and their cars because of what they tried to do for the future. And at the beginning of the development of the 50th, they already thought about the weapon "click and forget"

        Movable 360 ​​gun installation ?!
        Oh well! Have you heard about 30mm recoil or put, as on "Indian", 20mm "pukalku"?
        Moreover, Kamovtsy used good artillery: caliber, 2 types of ammunition, the possibility of deviation from the axis of the helicopter
        1. mav1971
          mav1971 April 2 2016 14: 15
          0
          Quote: Just VV

          Oh well! Have you heard about 30mm recoil or put, as on "Indian", 20mm "pukalku"?


          This is what a fright on an Indian costs 20mm?
          Did you come up with this in a dream?

          The fact that the Americans made a low-pulse gun for a helicopter is very good for the helicopters themselves.
          Whoever writes about farts, but her shells from the 70's have changed a lot and are in no way inferior in combat effectiveness to our BMPs used on the 2A42 ..

          And by the way, really moving. There are a bunch of videos where shooting on the fly goes at an angle significantly above 30 degrees.
          1. andrey-ivanov
            andrey-ivanov April 2 2016 14: 58
            +2
            And by the way, really moving. There are a bunch of videos where shooting on the fly goes at an angle significantly above 30 degrees.

            You can shoot at least 120 degrees. What accuracy is there with such shooting?
            1. mav1971
              mav1971 April 2 2016 15: 16
              0
              You can watch this video here.
              There you can relatively understand the trajectory of the helicopter itself.
              The angles of rotation of the gun on Apache are about the same as on the Mi-28.
              The range and altitude you yourself understand is such that those on earth are not particularly bothered by the noise of a helicopter.
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TZOxlTwAvA
            2. Just BB
              Just BB April 2 2016 17: 25
              -1
              What accuracy is there with such shooting?


              And we don’t need to shoot - just to swell .. wink
              In the original:" And we did not shoot Schaub - it was a little puffy "
          2. Just BB
            Just BB April 2 2016 15: 12
            +2
            This is what a fright on an Indian costs 20mm?

            request Read the article smile
            1. mav1971
              mav1971 April 2 2016 22: 37
              0
              Quote: Just VV
              This is what a fright on an Indian costs 20mm?

              request Read the article smile


              You do not need to turn on the fool mode.
              The author proclaimed in his error or incompetence. Judging by the second article. Do not repeat the mistakes of others. Learn to get the information yourself.
              For the example of the author is clear.
    2. timothy61
      timothy61 April 2 2016 07: 38
      0
      We don’t imitate anyone. The control of flight and armament is at the same time much more complicated than at two local ones.
      1. Just BB
        Just BB April 2 2016 14: 24
        0
        crying Unhappy fighter pilots
        1. andrey-ivanov
          andrey-ivanov April 2 2016 15: 00
          +3
          Unhappy fighter pilots

          Yes, yes, they’re hiding another one under the chair smile
          1. Just BB
            Just BB April 2 2016 17: 21
            0
            drinks Li si qingа
        2. venik
          venik April 2 2016 17: 19
          +5
          But I’m all thinking what it is all thinking of what the Su-30, MiG-35, Strike-Eagle and shock F-16 made 2-seater? It turns out the 2nd under the chair is uncomfortable!
          Let's not confuse the fighter (where 1 pilot is enough) with the attack aircraft (which attack helicopters are in essence) and where the 2nd member (crew) is simply necessary! Well, modern electronics has not yet grown to such a level that both the goal (ground) is chosen and that one does not collide with the ground on a shaver and dodge air defense! (Su-25 and A-10 - not counting - the tactics of use are slightly different).
          And the Ka-50 was just ahead of its time ....
        3. mav1971
          mav1971 April 2 2016 23: 49
          0
          Quote: Just VV
          crying Unhappy fighter pilots


          How often does a fighter pilot under the belly have only 50-100 meters and a bunch, tens, or even hundreds of enemies who want, most importantly, who have the opportunity to get into you?
          1. Just BB
            Just BB April 3 2016 18: 21
            0
            Popular "pilot" rumor read: "Hands together, legs together, salary - two hundred! Who is this? -" Pravak "(for Mi-8)," Operator "(for Mi-24)
            And at the same time, a specialist with higher education, who was taught at first 4 years, then 5 years, flew for several years as said above, not every operator could confidently start ATGM, because he was not taught this at the school.

            As for the fighter, it even has a landing speed higher than the maximum helicopter
      2. max702
        max702 April 3 2016 12: 40
        +1
        Quote: timothy61
        We don’t imitate anyone. The control of flight and armament is at the same time much more complicated than at two local ones.

        Don't write nonsense, what does the second crew member manage? Maximum ATGM "Attack" everything! This is all his work in battle! NURS, the PILOT works with all this cannon! Now tell me how often NURS, cannon and ATGM are used? 1 to 10 no less! And this is due to the wretchedness of the missiles, even the ancient "Whirlwind" practically removed this problem, kick the missiles and everything will be! This is not a helicopter problem! And for the sake of this, to keep the second person with everything that he needs both on earth and in the sky? instead of modifying weapons .. Idiocy! I repeat there was a problem with navigation, but it was a long time ago now ITS NO!
    3. maai
      maai April 2 2016 15: 08
      -2
      This is because the "West" understands only strength and always fights against the obviously weak.
      With UAVs and Apaches, they can only hunt civilian "Neanderthals".

      A rocket at an infantryman, and then from a machine gun in a funnel - this is "the height of skill"
      https://youtu.be/bPgg5_Ii9vA?t=317

      And here for the first time they realize the term "anticipation". Of course, for once a moving target)) The rocket can be seen not to hit))
      https://youtu.be/qAK615srKdA?t=58
  6. ars_pro
    ars_pro April 2 2016 02: 17
    +3
    The question arose about the thrust-weight ratio of the machine, and what is the possibility of our vehicles carrying more weapons, but there is clearly not enough space for it, in connection with which there is a question why, for example, they do not put additional weapons on top of the bearing wings, and not just at the bottom , which has never been noticed, although the extra supplies obviously will not hurt, maybe there are some fundamental problems or still the traction does not allow?
    1. 73bor
      73bor April 2 2016 07: 54
      +2
      At the expense of the lack of thrust, this is not about the Ka-52, the helicopter was created as a helicopter for controlling a group of helicopters and interacting with tank units, under the right pylon it can carry a container of all kinds of equipment! In Chechnya, the Ka-50 was called a "tennis ball" for its ability to instantly gain height!
      1. max702
        max702 April 3 2016 12: 42
        0
        Quote: 73bor
        In Chechnya, the Ka-50 was called a "tennis ball" for its ability to instantly gain height!

        Absolute record holder equipment recorded 30m \ s .. MI-28 13m \ s ...
  7. Spartanez300
    Spartanez300 April 2 2016 02: 26
    +6
    Well, from the above, the following follows: NATO helicopters have no chances against the Alligator in all respects. Article plus.
    1. weksha50
      weksha50 April 2 2016 11: 16
      +5
      Quote: Spartanez300
      Well, from the above, the following follows: NATO helicopters have no chances against the Alligator in all respects.


      Hm ... In addition, the article also poses the question: "Who - whom?" ...

      And for some reason, no one noted the fact of not only the skills of the crews, but also of their combat experience ...

      It is not enough to have a perfect and modern weapon in your hands, you need both your hands to be skillful and your head "boiling" in the right direction ...

      Neither the Apache nor the Alligator faced opposition, so the question "Who will win?", I think, is incorrectly posed ...

      Most likely, the result of the counteraction will depend 100% on the preparedness of the crew ...

      PS Soviet weapons, sometimes inferior in some ways to foreign models, nevertheless, these vaunted samples beat thanks to people who masterfully owned these weapons ...
      1. Cro-Magnon
        Cro-Magnon April 2 2016 15: 07
        +7
        Who about what and you again about dueling knightly fights like someone who ... funny disputes that have nothing real to war!
      2. venik
        venik April 2 2016 15: 21
        +5
        I agree completely !! These are actually cars of the same class, which are better in some ways, worse than each other in some ways, and here everything is decided by the "human factor"!
        In general, the title of the article seems personally absurd to me - everyone here somehow forgot that both of them are not air combat vehicles! Their purpose is completely different - direct support from the air. And as world experience shows, the best technique is the one that is used for its intended purpose or precisely for what it was designed for.
      3. venik
        venik April 2 2016 15: 21
        0
        I agree completely !! These are actually cars of the same class, which are better in some ways, worse than each other in some ways, and here everything is decided by the "human factor"!
        In general, the title of the article seems personally absurd to me - everyone here somehow forgot that both of them are not air combat vehicles! Their purpose is completely different - direct support from the air. And as world experience shows, the best technique is the one that is used for its intended purpose or precisely for what it was designed for.
    2. opus
      opus April 2 2016 13: 30
      +1
      Quote: Spartanez300
      NATO helicopters have no chances against the Alligator in all respects.

      Not a fact.


      Serious car



      A lot of them are stamped



      IR night vision system (FLIR) and TADS are generally clearly better than ours.
      Little is known about our above-radar radar
      FCR (AN / APG-78) at 8km

      On 64 c 2017, the AIM-92 Stinger -RVV (Stinger-RMP Blk 1) option will be installed


      64 will be able (everything is ready) to release himself (in the test) and to manage his / her own not a weak pile of drones (mini UAVs, and shock UAVs)

      1. Just BB
        Just BB April 2 2016 14: 50
        +3
        On 64 c 2017, the AIM-92 Stinger -RVV (Stinger-RMP Blk 1) option will be installed


        I will say "a terrible thing" - in our regiment, back in the mid-80s, "armamentmen" on the Mi-24 attached an Arrow - then it was fashionable to "invent" - there was an Afghan. Both the S-24 were hung, and 4 ATGMs per holder, for a total of 16 per helicopter. The designers came ... I don't know what stuck, because Army Aviation left the Air Force for the Ground Forces
        1. opus
          opus April 2 2016 17: 36
          +3
          Quote: Just BB
          I will say "a terrible thing" - in our regiment, back in the mid-80s, "arms" on the Mi-24

          Yes, there is not any "terrible thing"

          Only not an "arrow" ,but "Igla-S" with a set of autonomous modules "Strelets" on helicopters






          The MSA suffers from us, but for now all
          Quote: Just BB
          an Arrow was attached to the Mi-24 - then it was fashionable to "invent" - the Afghan was


          belay
          fool
          crap
          1. A set of autonomous modules with a firing complex cannot be made "on the knee"
          IR GOS leaning out of a helicopter chilled? Beep activated by lace?
          2.DO YOU DO THOUGHT: against whom in AFGHAN it was necessary to put air defense systems on helicopters?
          Who is the adversary? Mujahideen with Kalash? The bearded did not have aviation ...
          Why so many meaningless works?

          Or did the "arrow" bring down the "stingers" on the approach to the carrier of the "Strela" air defense system (helicopter)?
          1. Just BB
            Just BB April 2 2016 18: 05
            +1
            Your pictures only confirm that our armsmen were on the right track. It means that something has reached the "consumer".
            I, of course, do not have such colorful pictures to confirm - there was another time (there could have been a "difficult conversation" with a representative of the "office")
            Still, "Strela"(the one that the fighter launched from his shoulder) was attached without those "horror stories" about which you write.
            We could not intervene in the helicopter system - everything was done by hanging installation. The missile was suspended in place of ATGM systems.
            "Afghan was" does not mean that for use there - they gave freedom to the idea!
            But Arrow was needed - since the regiment was on duty along the border of the GDR-FRG to suppress violations by low-speed low-speed aircraft.
            We were young - that’s what we came up with all kinds of nonsense.
            So don’t bother - you don’t need to beat yourself on the head in vain - it can still come in handy - and not only eat
            1. opus
              opus April 2 2016 19: 50
              0
              Quote: Just BB
              everything was done by mounting.

              I'm wondering how in this case ("on the knee") the question of
              -cooler IKGSN, start the BIP, and reset the shooting, if the target is gone. And all this at a distance of 2 m from the cabin (where people were)
              - delayed launch of the marshavik (the carrier is not standing, but flies in the direction of the target, therefore, the pz can get into the input, and the carrier itself can fly into SAM) tinkering at missiles? The programmer was gutted?

              Quote: Just BB
              along the border of the GDR-Germany to prevent violations of low-altitude low-speed aircraft.

              - on the underlying surface that arrow was acting badly, it’s easier to shoot down from cannon (machine gun) weapons

              April 19, 1970 interception of a light-engine aircraft Cessna-170B D-EFYT (Lönenburg airfield). A private device piloted by pilot Helmut Siemens made a pleasure flight at high altitude. Onboard there were five children and the passenger accompanying them. Due to the error of the pilot, the aircraft invaded the airspace of the GDR and was intercepted by a pair of MiG-21 fighters. After Helmut Siemens ignored the touchdown commands from the radio, the fighters fired a warning line.

              June 7, 1974 interception of a light-engine aircraft Scheibe SF-25C D-KEIH. A West German sports plane managed by an amateur pilot Lothar Gris got lost, violated the air border of the German Democratic Republic and was forced to land by the Mi-8T helicopter of the 239th ogvp (helicopter commander Mr. Zhulidov N.P., navigator pilot A. Korenev A.G. ., flight engineer l. Polushin N.S.). When landing on an incline, the SF-25 damaged the propeller.

              On February 17, 1980, a bright red Robin HR.100-200B D-EJYJ aircraft violated the air border of the German Democratic Republic at n.p. Worbis at 16:35 p.m. The GDR Air Force Mi-24 helicopter raised for interception forced the intruder to land at 17:34 at Nora airfield. The pilot, a citizen of the Netherlands, Peter Plumen (a native of Werth, born on 17.1.1929) was arrested.

              On April 23, 1980, the Cesssna-182 D-EKWR lost its location and at 15:39 violated the GDR airborne border over the city of Eisenach. A Mi-2 helicopter was lifted to intercept, following the commands of which the intruder landed at 16:11 at the Schlotheim airfield. This is probably the only case of using Mi-2 helicopters to intercept an air target.


              October 22, 1980 interception of a light-propelled airplane of Germany. A private plane that invaded the GDR airspace was intercepted by Soviet crews and forced to land at the airport in Erfurt.

              1982 interception of a light-engine aircraft. A private plane that violated the airspace of the GDR was forced to land by a Mi-24 helicopter, piloted by the crew of Mr. N.N. Andreeva.
              1. opus
                opus April 2 2016 19: 52
                +1
                June 7, 1983 interception of a light-engine aircraft Cessna-152 D-EIBF. A plane that violated the border was forced to land at the Merseburg airfield by a fighter unit of the 6th GIAD.

                August 3, 1984, interception of a light-engine aircraft Morane MS.893 D-EDKK. Border violator forced to land at n. Tsaunrode decisive actions of the crew of the Mi-24 336th airborne captain V.A. Zhabova. The pilots were awarded a nominal watch.

                September 13, 1985 interception of a light-engine aircraft Cessna-150 D-ECNV. A private West German plane violated the airspace of the German Democratic Republic and was forced to land on the strip of the Eisenach proving ground with Mi-24 helicopters of the 336th UPR (crew commanders are captains Demidenko, Abzalov and Shumsky).

                August 15, 1989 interception of light aircraft Grob G-115 D-EOGC. A private West German plane violated the border of the GDR and was intercepted by the crew of the Mi-24 Kachura I.A. At first, the intruder's pilot did not respond to signals, but after a warning fire followed the helicopter to Damgarten airfield. During the landing approach, the intruder tried to "escape", but the Mi-24 crew took a place higher and "pressed" the G-115 to the runway. The pilot and the plane were arrested.


                MENTIONS about MANPADS by helicopters - NO
                Quote: Just BB
                So don’t bother - you don’t need to beat yourself on the head in vain - it can still come in handy - and not only eat

                Thanks for work.
                1. I have no problems with this, and eat and think, and masochism is disgusting to me.
                2. The head on which they beat was NOT MY.
                Do not worry
                1. Just BB
                  Just BB April 2 2016 21: 43
                  0
                  2. The head on which they beat was NOT MY.
                  Do not worry

                  sad And I have always thought by a sinful thing that the "smiley" is a graphic expression of the state of the "soul" of the author
                  1. opus
                    opus April 2 2016 22: 31
                    0
                    Quote: Just BB
                    I always thought that the "smiley" is a graphic expression of the state of the "soul" of the author

                    belay wink YES
                    fool NO
              2. Just BB
                Just BB April 2 2016 21: 41
                0
                I'm wondering how in this case ("on the knee") the question of
                -cooler IKGSN, start the BIP, and reset the shooting, if the target is gone.

                And how does a fighter from the same Arrow shoot this question?
                And all this at a distance of 2 m from the cabin (where people were)

                The Mi-24 has no cabin - a cargo compartment.
                - delayed launch of the marshavik (the carrier is not standing, but flies in the direction of the target, therefore, the pz can get into the input, and the carrier itself can fly into SAM)

                But what about a poor helicopter - it has 80 80 mm rockets and 4 more ATGMs, and all of them are rocket-powered and emit powder gases, sometimes it happens that some "pieces of iron" (traces on the skin remained) flew off - nothing flies , and such that on their own missiles ???
                I know this timeline, especially since something happened to me and one of your cases involved my friend ..
                Okay, these were civilian devices, but there were attempts to provoke and combat - I have already told about the "Cobra" and the Mi-24 - this case gave rise to the idea of ​​the Arrow.
                Understanding perfectly well that it is really impossible to solve such issues without the participation of the KB in the conditions of the troops, but you can make this talk at all levels
                1. opus
                  opus April 2 2016 22: 47
                  0
                  Quote: Just BB
                  decides a fighter from the same arrow shooting?

                  Need a manual?



                  During the shooting, the anti-aircraft gunner can, if necessary, change the method of shooting and the type of fire.

                  When capturing background noise or losing a target, the anti-aircraft gunner before the end of the power supply, it re-captures the target and rocket launch.

                  If the missile misses or the target is not hit, the anti-aircraft gunner quickly connects to the trigger a new pipe with a rocket andif the target has not left the launch zone, re-shells it.


                  Having discovered the target, the observer determines its belonging, number and type of aircraft, altitude and direction of their flight and reports, for example: “AIR, OVER THIRD, ONE F-100, ALTITUDE 00”. For example, the observer reports about his planes: “OWN, OVER THE FIRST, TWO MiG-21, ALTITUDE 00”.

                  Well, and what I remember: the time is up, replace the cylinder with compressed gas (handles)
                  How to do all this with borate LA, outside the pylon-xs.
                  data bus, error signal (sight-pU), etc., etc.
                  Quote: Just BB
                  And how to be a poor helicopter in general - it has 80 rockets of 80 mm caliber and 4 more ATGMs


                  there are ammunition adapted for air launch and high-speed pressure, taking into account the linear velocity of the carrier towards the target

                  "arrow"
                  In motion, shooting is carried out in cases where the condition of the road allows for uniform, smooth (without jerks) movement of the vehicle at a speed ofe more than 20 km / h

                  MANPADS-spittoon - the task is not to cripple the shooter ("carrier"), "smoothly and gently" take the missile defense system away from him to a safe distance, until the marshaler turns on.
                  This is not MANPADS, but not the essence (the principle is the same)
                  1. Just BB
                    Just BB April 3 2016 06: 49
                    0
                    Imagine - what you "hz" - the guys did!
                    Do you really think that in the entire chain of aviation engineering services: a regiment, an army, a group of troops, the country's air force, there were some stupid people? And no one, like you now, had tricky questions?
                    I told you that I don’t know the fate of this development, but that you have posted pictures - confirms what ours the guys were on the right track.
                    Only the first the pictures were about "striped", which caused a surprise dissatisfaction
                    1. opus
                      opus April 3 2016 18: 50
                      0
                      Quote: Just BB
                      were you stupid?

                      some more sensible.
                      I myself received gratitude for disguising pu.
                      just picking the "Arrow" is not so easy. And do not pick it up.
                      I explained why. (Yes, and who will give the chicken? It’s worth the money!, As I remember right now, a BMP-2 shot: women's winter boots flew away (then))

                      Quote: Just BB
                      Only the first pictures were about "striped"

                      it was to
                      Quote: Spartanez300
                      Well, from the above, the following follows: NATO helicopters have no chances against the Alligator in all respects

                      belay
                      on, which he wrote:

                      Quote: opus
                      Serious car

                      Quote: opus
                      IR night vision system (FLIR) and TADS are generally clearly better than ours.
                      or rather M-TADS / PNVS

                      after upgrade already in color


                      Quote: Just BB
                      aroused surprise

                      The enemy must be taken seriously.
                      1941 was already. More can not be repeated
                      If I visit all of my people on graveyards, it will take me a month to travel from the Leningrad Region to Austria. I think so for everyone ..
        2. iouris
          iouris April 3 2016 00: 05
          0
          In Lipetsk, as early as the mid-1980s, tactics of aerial combat helicopters (and with enemy aircraft, too) were developed. No wonder. Another thing is what conclusions the R&D customer came to at this stage.
  8. Nasty
    Nasty April 2 2016 03: 07
    +3
    But for the rockets he shot and forgot, a huge plus to Amer. I would not want to hang over the battlefield and shine with a laser. The circular view radar allows, in my opinion, to mark 16 (or 8?) Targets and attack them from a hidden position ...
  9. papik09
    papik09 April 2 2016 04: 40
    +4
    hi
    And what to compare? Read the ATTENTIVELY TITLE:
    - "Apache", that is - an Indian, or as they said in childhood - "red-skinned";
    - "Alligator", that is, - a crocodile (more precisely - a representative of the detachment of crocodiles, they will simply have a wider "face"). And "Crocodile" - MI-24, and to this day they are afraid. And if they are afraid, then they respect. Well, and "Alligator" is ... well, everyone understands. bully
    SHORT !!! am
    The question should sound like this (and the title of the article too) - HOW MANY INDIANS WILL EAT A CROCODE WITH A WIDE "MUGHFACE"?
    Article plus unconditional (even two, but the second is mental) drinks
  10. avg-mgn
    avg-mgn April 2 2016 05: 52
    +4
    For the last modification of "Apache Longbow" the customer gives about 55 million dollars. For the Russian Ka-52 - just 16 million dollars.

    I could not figure out super cunning arithmetic as presented by the author.
    If you believe him, then there is a terrible crime. How many of us saw on the market that equivalent, even the best, 3 products would be sold cheaper? The market does not ask how much the product costs, there is a question - how much you sell. The inconsistency is a trifle, but the sediment from a good article remains.
    1. mav1971
      mav1971 April 2 2016 13: 43
      +2
      Quote: avg-mgn
      For the last modification of "Apache Longbow" the customer gives about 55 million dollars. For the Russian Ka-52 - just 16 million dollars.

      I could not figure out super cunning arithmetic as presented by the author.
      If you believe him, then there is a terrible crime. How many of us saw on the market that equivalent, even the best, 3 products would be sold cheaper? The market does not ask how much the product costs, there is a question - how much you sell. The inconsistency is a trifle, but the sediment from a good article remains.


      Just few people know why the numbers in the contracts vary widely.
      Our contracts often indicate only the price of equipment.
      Foreigners indicate the equipment itself + providing field and repair equipment, which is also included in the contract + stock of the repair kit for the planned life (for example, 20 years) + the cost of retraining pilots.

      For a long time already the cost of the devices themselves ceased to be at times ...
      1. Mayday1981
        Mayday1981 April 2 2016 18: 36
        0
        The price of Ka-52 in the article is underestimated at least 2 times.
        Engine power is overstated by 500 hp.
        1. max702
          max702 April 3 2016 12: 51
          0
          Quote: Mayday1981
          Engine power is overstated by 500 hp.

          All the easier, the author gave out peak power ...The VK-2500 engine is a modification of the increased power of the well-known TV3-117VMA engine [15].

          Established in 2001
          Emergency mode 2700hp
      2. venik
        venik April 2 2016 21: 25
        0
        And in some cases, simulators and ammunition are added (if not supplied before, etc., etc.
        Somehow, in the early 80s at the training camp, I asked the teacher why it was F-15 with the declared price of 20 lyam greens (at that time) for deliveries to Saudi Arabia, I pulled all 45? He painted all this for me!
        In addition, their technology has always been expensive. This is understandable - this is the same way for private corporations to subsidize civil engineering. On this, by the way, Boeing was caught in the early 90s, when Airbus tried to sue for state subsidies ...
    2. vik669
      vik669 April 8 2016 22: 33
      0
      Three Alligators or one Apache?
      If you compare the number of produced and actual combat use, then the question is VERY interrogative!
  11. s.melioxin
    s.melioxin April 2 2016 06: 01
    +5
    How many "Apaches" will eat an "Alligator"?
    And for me, as a Russian and a patriot, how much you need and eat so much. That would be great. And most importantly, there are prerequisites for this. India chose Apache, it will probably regret it soon, it seems to me or, frankly, I would really like to regret it. Because you can’t think of a better caption for a photo.
    1. mav1971
      mav1971 April 2 2016 13: 46
      +1
      Quote: s.melioxin
      Because you can’t think of a better caption for a photo.


      Only now it seems to me that in a real aerial battle of these two helicopters, Crocodile has no chance before SuperCobra.
      1. Just BB
        Just BB April 2 2016 14: 58
        +4
        Sadly, there was a case in the GSVG: along the border of the FRG-GDR, a "cobra" flew. They raised the Mi-24V on duty for control. They began to "fly" in front of each other. But alas, 5 tons against 12 ... it is not easy to stop, in an effort to "brake" like a "cobra" our guys were carried away by the rotor blades along the tail boom ...
      2. venik
        venik April 2 2016 21: 53
        +1
        In fact, according to foreign sources, fights between helicopters most often took place during the Iran-Iraq war. Moreover, the Iraqis used the Mi-24 of the first modifications, and the Iranians mostly used Cobras (though not Super-).
        The data of both sides differ greatly (naturally), but at least the losses were comparable (according to the Iranian data), and according to the Iraqi data, so generally 3/1 in favor of the Crocodiles. So, what about "no chance" I would be so categorical!
        By the way, in the same war, the first case allegedly occurred when a turntable ("Crocodile") knocked down a jet fighter ("Phantom"). Note - this is "civilian" data, not Russian !!!
        1. opus
          opus April 2 2016 23: 30
          0
          Quote: venik
          Note - this is "civilian" data, not Russian !!!

          So can it be that "Data" will lead?
          Why "scratch with your tongue"?
          Fuck a picture?
          What am I going to ulcerate:

          And then, according to Ukraine, already 1/2 of the personnel of the RF Armed Forces pereomloto, "seals" belay Ukrainian Navy regiment Kamchatka regiment belay Marine Corps, and Pssaks and Co. .. well, she generally has "irrefutable" data, but does not show anyone.
          Buryats again, with tanks on the steppes of Ukraine
  12. Volga Cossack
    Volga Cossack April 2 2016 07: 10
    +2
    The article is controversial. but- Good luck to the Alligator !!!! I want to believe that if we do not surpass, then at least at the level ....
  13. Just BB
    Just BB April 2 2016 07: 12
    +24
    How many "Apaches" will eat an "Alligator"?

    There are two tipsy men, two of them are coming towards them.
    One to another: "Let's beat them"
    - And if they are us?
    - And then what for us ?!


    To be proud of domestic is normal!
    But not to fanaticism - in any case, "They threw caps into the air ..."

    Ka-52:
    Weight, kg
    empty xnumx
    normal takeoff 9800
    maximum takeoff 10400
    Apache
    The mass of the empty helicopter, kg 5165
    Maximum take-off weight, kg 9520

    2 tons of load per 8 tons of dead weight against 4 by 5. sad

    And by birth they are of the same age (considering that the Ka-52 is 85% Ka-50) - only the "Indian" has been fighting in the thousandth number for more than 30 years, and ours, in the unit staff, is only undergoing the "course of a young soldier".
    You need to "swing", not blow your cheeks (so as not to ask:"and what for us?")
    1. 73bor
      73bor April 2 2016 08: 05
      +1
      About the piece quantity, more than a hundred Ka-52s were built by 2020 will be under 200 pieces! At least look at the news!
      1. Just BB
        Just BB April 2 2016 15: 06
        +6
        In 1982, we received 24 Mi-24V helicopters in Arsenyev at Progress - this was the MONTHLY rate of release !!!

        And you tell me about 200 helicopters for FIVE future years ... Just THREE military regiments by Soviet standards
        1. max702
          max702 April 3 2016 12: 59
          0
          Quote: Just BB
          In 1982, we received 24 Mi-24V helicopters in Arsenyev at Progress - this was the MONTHLY rate of release !!!

          By the way, that's why they ate the KA-50 .. What today, then nobody will give SUCH money .. If they had accepted the KA-50 MI-24, goodbye .. And this is for Mile’s bureau a complete finish .. This is where the legs grow all the tales about the impossibility of piloting one person and other nonsense .. It’s not commonplace, but money decided everything here ...
          1. Just BB
            Just BB April 3 2016 18: 37
            0
            Something "apologists" threw "sleepers", and yet: "Darkness! Have not seen summer!"
            I have already spoken about the struggle between the "best" and the "upstarts" (according to the "classification" of the "best" themselves).
            After all, it's real: after 1971 (the release of the Mi-24) nothing new "Mi" has been created. How many years have been "huddled" near the Mi-28 and Mi-28 - problems remain
    2. guzik007
      guzik007 April 2 2016 10: 17
      +1
      2 tons of load per 8 tons of dead weight against 4 by 5.

      And the article claims that the carrying capacity of an Indian is 770 kg. Which of you is right?
      1. Just BB
        Just BB April 2 2016 15: 25
        0
        And the article claims that ....

        700kg is the weight of only 16 Hellfire ATGMs, and another 1200 rounds for the cannon ...

        The network is full of information about the "Indian"
    3. CT-55_11-9009
      CT-55_11-9009 April 2 2016 14: 48
      +1
      Em. Can you indicate the source? On Airwar, Apache Longbow has these indicators:
      Weight, kg
      empty xnumx
      normal takeoff 7270
      maximum takeoff 8006

      That is 3 tons of payload at maximum load. Together with fuel.
      1. Just BB
        Just BB April 2 2016 17: 17
        +1
        Alternatively:
        http://militaryarms.ru/voennaya-texnika/aviaciya/amerikanskij-vertolet-apach/
        Together with fuel.

        The take-off mass also implies an aircraft filled with all fuel and lubricants and equipped according to the flight mission, and of course the weight of the crew
      2. yehat
        yehat April 3 2016 17: 05
        0
        who goes to battle with maximum load?
        so many times the probability of a plane crash!
        They will hang 4-8 rockets on the Apache, load a couple of hundred shells and ALL
        no 16 missiles or 1200 shells.
        leave an advertisement to an advertisement.
        1. Just BB
          Just BB April 3 2016 18: 54
          0
          who goes to battle with maximum load?


          And who said that in battle?

          The maximum take-off weight shows the capabilities of the device, as a rule this is a compromise between the amount of weapons (ammunition) and fuel supply (range and duration of stay in the battle zone).
          Yes, and God bless him, with the maximum weight, you must agree that it is easier for a lighter vehicle to maneuver (m * v - no one canceled), however, "Ka" coaxial screws help a little in this
    4. yehat
      yehat April 3 2016 17: 02
      +1
      You have not posted all the important characteristics:
      at ka-50 and 52, the maximum rate of climb is almost 2 times higher than that of Apache.
      Any maneuverable aerial battle will be easily won for this banal reason.
      But why? Both cars are specialists for striking the ground. For air defense they use the same thing as tanks to make anti-aircraft installations.
  14. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter April 2 2016 07: 26
    +2
    Ours is armored, powerfully armed, highly maneuverable. American - more like a cowboy. Kevlar armor - light from a large-caliber - the brains of the crew throughout the car will have to be collected. I read interviews with helicopter pilots - they just trudge from the Alligator!
    1. onega67
      onega67 April 2 2016 11: 06
      -3
      so what??? Our drag, and others?
      1. andrey-ivanov
        andrey-ivanov April 2 2016 14: 27
        +4
        so what??? Our drag, and others?

        Others just do not yet know how from "Alligator" "rushing" laughing
  15. Russian_Bear
    Russian_Bear April 2 2016 08: 22
    0
    Comrades, I think this comparison is not objective.
    I am as much a patriot as you are, but it is not entirely correct to compare an American helicopter made in the 70s and our Aligator, which has been in operation since 2011.
    We have a unique machine for its flight and combat characteristics, though we received it much later than pin ** sy.
    1. CT-55_11-9009
      CT-55_11-9009 April 2 2016 14: 49
      +1
      Quote: Russian_Bear
      We have a unique machine for its flight and combat characteristics, though we received it much later than pin ** sy.

      I agree.
  16. Cartalon
    Cartalon April 2 2016 08: 23
    +4
    Extremely unbiased article
  17. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek April 2 2016 08: 28
    +12
    Shapkozakidatelskaya article. The Apache is a worthy device and must be compared correctly: range, ammunition, ferry range, weapons. When designing any apparatus, they think first and rely on the experience of the application. And the Americans have experience: Vietnam, the Arab-Israeli conflicts, plus the experience of serving as shock workers in the Marine Corps on ships. In terms of size, weight and weapons, all drummers in the world are similar to the Apache, this is the Tiger and South Africa and the Chinese Z-10 and 9, Mongoose. Our Mi 24,28,8 and Ka-50,52 are the only ones in this weight. This is due to the fact which engines were available. In any case, if the new devices will serve as their ancestor Mi 24 and go in the development plan as the Apache, the task of the designers can be considered completed. There are many inaccuracies in the article, I put "-".
    1. vlade99
      vlade99 April 2 2016 13: 38
      +1
      Quote: Zaurbek
      And the Americans have experience:

      Not only Americans have experience. The question is also in the school of helicopter engineering. Russian engineer Sikorsky built his first helicopter. And, to create a coaxial flying machine, buyers of brains are not succeeding so far. He compared the work of the Ka-50 in Chechnya and the Indian in Iraq. The black shark is a weapon, the Indian is entertaining for tourists in natives, where there is no full-fledged opposition. Analyze not only numbers.
      1. Zaurbek
        Zaurbek April 3 2016 03: 31
        0
        The experience of the United States is no less than ours. USSR, looking at trophies in the form of Iroquois and Cobra created Mi-24
      2. Zaurbek
        Zaurbek April 3 2016 03: 31
        0
        The experience of the United States is no less than ours. USSR, looking at trophies in the form of Iroquois and Cobra created Mi-24
      3. yehat
        yehat April 3 2016 17: 09
        +1
        do not carry nonsense, she grunts so loudly!
        creating a coaxial circuit for Americans is not a problem.
        An even less problem is to steal documentation from the Kamov bureau.
        Apache is what it is because Americans have their own experience, their own traditions and their own requirements for cars. They very rarely engage in territory retention - they usually hit from afar with swoops. So the car is like that.
  18. veselcak
    veselcak April 2 2016 08: 40
    +2
    With rockets "fired and forgot" the trouble .. And until the situation in this regard is evened out, Apaches look more profitable for the same India! The main task of these helicopters is to defeat armored vehicles, and not to patrol urban-type terrain, which is credited to the Alligator
    1. mav1971
      mav1971 April 2 2016 14: 22
      +1
      Quote: veselcak
      With rockets "fired and forgot" the trouble .. And until the situation in this regard is evened out, Apaches look more profitable for the same India! The main task of these helicopters is to defeat armored vehicles, and not to patrol urban-type terrain, which is credited to the Alligator


      Do not believe it, but the latest version of Apache, as the Defender, is precisely the apparatus of the battlefield. Including patrolling.
      Equipping him with the Link 16 system allows him to receive information from a variety of sources, from a special forces soldier and neighboring helicopters to strategic reconnaissance drones.
      Moreover, BIUS itself forms the battlefield for him.
      The helicopter became network-centric.
  19. Alexey T. (Oper)
    Alexey T. (Oper) April 2 2016 08: 50
    +5
    The article is patriotic. Even too much. In my opinion, such comparisons are absolutely incorrect - the battle will show which helicopter (tank, plane, ship, automatic pistol) is better. And with all the development of technology, a lot decides the skill of the person who controls it.
  20. tchoni
    tchoni April 2 2016 09: 08
    +12
    As always, I'll be smart. The Ka 50 was greeted coolly in the troops. For the simple reason that at the time of its appearance, the troops did not solve anti-tank missions, and the battlefield attack aircraft was in demand. In the role of the latter, the "crocodile" A ka50, sharpened for point targets, showed itself excellently from Afghanistan, was perceived as a weapon, let's say, with occasional use, not capable of hanging over the battlefield (column) for a long time and inferior to the crocodile in firepower and ammunition (but superior in accuracy and search capabilities) In the ka-52, they tried to correct these shortcomings of the "shark", because neither super-maneuverability nor a wonderful sighting system compensate for the banal firepower and lack of flexibility in its application.
    Regarding the comparison of "Apache" and "Aligator" These are different machines. The first is the essence of a long-range high-precision anti-tank complex (it is not surprising if you remember how many tanks the USSR had). The second is a versatile battlefield fire support helicopter, with high capabilities for independent search and defeat of highly protected point targets. If the former is more suitable for implanting democracy in individual banana republics by the method of drinking the armored formations of their regular armies. And the second - for catching igilishen, he is partisan in various kinds of brilliant green with the ability to cover all brilliant green in bulk, although the use of high-precision weapons is not alien to him.
    1. andrey-ivanov
      andrey-ivanov April 2 2016 13: 41
      +3
      For the simple reason that, at the time of its appearance, anti-tank missions, troops did not solve

      Yeah, it means "the destruction of the existing and prospective enemy armored vehicles" in those. the task for the Ka-50 was prescribed just like that? And that is why the Ka-50 armament complex included 12 Vikhr high-precision ATGMs, as well as the possibility of suspending Kh-25 missiles?
      Regarding the comparison of "Apache" and "Aligator" These are different machines. The first is the essence of a long-range high-precision anti-tank complex (it is not surprising if you remember how many tanks the USSR had). The second is a versatile battlefield fire support helicopter, with high capabilities for independent search and defeat of highly protected point targets. If the former is more suitable for implanting democracy in individual banana republics by the method of drinking the armored formations of their regular armies. And the second - for catching igilishen, he is partisan in all sorts of brilliant green with the possibility of covering all brilliant green in bulk, although the use of high-precision weapons is not alien to him

      Tell me at least one banana republic, which has in its composition of the armed forces significant armor formations and significant armaments. But is a tank not a point and highly protected target?
      And the ka50, sharpened for point targets, was perceived as a weapon, let’s say, with episodic use, unable to hang over the battlefield (column) for a long time and inferior to the crocodile in terms of firepower and ammunition

      Why did you decide that the Ka-50 is capable of hanging over the battlefield for a long time? And how can it be inferior to the Mi-24 in terms of ammunition, if max. Ammunition ATGM for Mi-24 is (if my memory serves me) 8 units, and Ka-50 - 12, while maintaining a couple of NAR S-8 blocks in addition?
      1. tchoni
        tchoni April 2 2016 14: 18
        0
        Quote: andrey-ivanov
        Yeah, it means "the destruction of the existing and prospective enemy armored vehicles" in those. the task for the Ka-50 was prescribed just like that? And that is why the Ka-50 armament complex included 12 Vikhr high-precision ATGMs, as well as the possibility of suspending Kh-25 missiles?

        When TZ was issued, they were preparing for war with NATO and not NATO. A wide-profile attack aircraft was in the army. "Crocodile" was called. And there was no specific vehicle for hunting tanks. So we decided to close the gap. Yes, only then I had to fight more with "Ichkerishen partisans" and not with NATO ...
        Quote: andrey-ivanov
        Yeah, it means "the destruction of the existing and prospective enemy armored vehicles" in those. the task for the Ka-50 was prescribed just like that? And that is why the Ka-50 armament complex included 12 Vikhr high-precision ATGMs, as well as the possibility of suspending Kh-25 missiles?

        Iraq, for example. Somalia, at the time of imposing anarchy ... Yugoslavia ..
        Quote: andrey-ivanov
        Why did you decide that the Ka-50 is capable of hanging over the battlefield for a long time? And how can it be inferior to the Mi-24 in terms of ammunition, if max. Ammunition ATGM for Mi-24 is (if my memory serves me) 8 units, and Ka-50 - 12, while maintaining a couple of NAR S-8 blocks in addition?

        Because this is the opinion of people whom the ka50 supported. And, when working with partisans in green NURSy, a machine gun, an ags side gunner is much more preferable than an ATGM ...
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. max702
          max702 April 3 2016 13: 08
          +2
          Quote: tchoni
          Because this is the opinion of people whom the ka50 supported. And, when working with partisans in green NURSy, a machine gun, an ags side gunner is much more preferable than an ATGM ...

          All the same, read ..
    2. max702
      max702 April 3 2016 13: 04
      +2
      Quote: tchoni
      As always, I'm smart. Ka 50 in the troops met cool

      NOT in the troops, but in the headquarters .. In the troops, everything seemed to be quite the opposite .. [media = http: http: //www.youtube.com/watch? V = E4BlGsYnIpA]
  21. Yak28
    Yak28 April 2 2016 09: 20
    +1
    Quote: tomket
    "Shark" was actually buried completely in the days of Putin

    The Ka-50 "Black Shark" is an unsuccessful helicopter, one pilot cannot perform an effective combat mission while simultaneously controlling the helicopter and weapons, and you also need to monitor the progress of the battle and keep in touch. Unsuccessful projects include the Su-47 "Berkut". and MiG 1.44. But the Ka-52 "Alligator" surpassed the Ka-50. But which aircraft or helicopter can be found out better only in real battles, well, the number of equipment also plays a role, and just in numerical superiority we are behind
    1. cesar65
      cesar65 April 2 2016 09: 42
      +3
      Quote: Yak28
      Quote: tomket
      "Shark" was actually buried completely in the days of Putin

      The Ka-50 "Black Shark" is an unsuccessful helicopter, one pilot cannot perform an effective combat mission while simultaneously controlling the helicopter and weapons, and you also need to monitor the progress of the battle and keep in touch. Unsuccessful projects include the Su-47 "Berkut". and MiG 1.44. But the Ka-52 "Alligator" surpassed the Ka-50. But which aircraft or helicopter can be found out better only in real battles, well, the number of equipment also plays a role, and just in numerical superiority we are behind

      The Ka-50 "Black Shark" helicopter is a good one, just ahead of its time, and the Su-47 "Berkut" and MiG 1.44 are experimental machines, so it's difficult to call them unsuccessful. Actually, the first Ka-52 appeared in the early 90s and was designated Ka-50.2. It was supposed to become a command vehicle, to control a group of helicopters and the radar was at the top.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. creak
      creak April 2 2016 10: 06
      +3
      Quote: Yak28
      But what kind of plane or helicopter is better to find out only in real battles, well, the amount of equipment also plays a role, and we are just in numerical superiority


      I understand that any analogy suffers, nevertheless I would like to note that in 1941 the Red Army had significant numerical and qualitative superiority in armored vehicles (only in the border districts there were about 1500 KV and T-34) - nothing like the Wehrmacht was close ...
      However, in border battles, for example, in one of the largest tank battles in Lutsk-Brody-Rivne, to the South-West front, this advantage to win the battle did not help, nor did it manage to avoid the defeats of the initial period of the war ....
      The reasons for this are already well known and it makes no sense to dwell on them - this is what the discussion of the comparative characteristics of helicopters resembles fortune-telling on coffee grounds ...
      The outcome of the battle, even of equal opponents, is affected by a mass of various factors, and technical characteristics are only one of them.
      Therefore, the time for categorical approval has not yet come - only the time and comparative results of the combat use of helicopters will show the true picture ...
      1. yehat
        yehat April 3 2016 17: 33
        0
        Quote: ranger
        only in the border districts there were about 1500 KV and T-34) - nothing like the Wehrmacht and was not close ...

        where do you get the information ??? as of June 22, there were about 700 t34 and kv-1a units
        but if we take into account our logistics of the 41-year model and the provision of mechanics, there were about a third of the combat readiness, because there were about 250 vehicles on the battlefield. And the Germans only in the parts of the first line of different tanks had about 3700 pieces, of which about 700 modernized Czech 38t, the rest of the mix from PzIII, PZ-IV, PZ-II, StugIII, MarderI and so on.
        approximately 2500 of which were quite modern.
        We had a lot of tanks like BT-7, etc., but the German military machine had a very saturated anti-tank gun with 37 and 50mm guns, as well as anti-tank rifles that penetrated our light tanks perfectly. That is what led them to die very quickly in battle - in a matter of hours of battle, hundreds of tanks lost head-to-head in the mechanized corps.
        At the same time, the German StugIII and PzIII withstood frontal shelling of our 45mm guns - 90% of the PTO RKKA barrels in 41 years. Just like the Kv-1a withstood the shelling of the German anti-tank missile, but it was slow, half-blind and practically without communication, while the German tanks had good coordination. The Germans have a lot of stories when, during the KV-1 attack, they managed to PODSZIT different types of field guns and shoot from each until the tanks were hit.
        As a rule, they were knocked out from howitzers by HEs.
      2. Waran
        Waran April 6 2016 15: 15
        0
        For fans to consider tanks:
        http://oper.ru/video/view.php?t=1383
    4. andrey-ivanov
      andrey-ivanov April 2 2016 14: 32
      +4
      Ka-50 "Black Shark" is an unsuccessful helicopter, one pilot cannot perform an effective combat mission while simultaneously controlling the helicopter and weapons, and you also need to monitor the progress of the battle and keep in touch
      Strange ... And in the reports on comparative tests of the Mi-28 and Ka-50 it is said that the psycho-physiological load on the Ka-50 pilot is lower than that of the Mi-28 pilot. Due to the high level of automation of the piloting process and control of the Ka-50 weapon system.
    5. yehat
      yehat April 3 2016 17: 17
      0
      firstly, the ka-50 is a successful car. The problem is not in her. and not in 1 pilot.
      secondly, su-47 and instant 1.44 are also successful projects. Again, the problems are not in them.
      1.44 materials are now used by China for their similar J-20 fighter.
      This is definitely the success of the project instant 1.44.
      thirdly, you don’t understand the essence of the issue at all - the point is not who has surpassed whom, but how efficiently the combat system fits into the current Air Force and the tasks it poses.
      Obviously, the cobra is weaker than the Mi-24, but both helicopters are effective and in demand in their own way.
  22. cesar65
    cesar65 April 2 2016 09: 43
    +4
    One more photo
  23. Nicola Bari
    Nicola Bari April 2 2016 09: 45
    +2
    The article is good, only too optimistic. This does not reduce pride in our helicopter, but it is incorrect to compare just these two helicopters, however. Many described these differences in detail above.

    What surprised me a little was the difference in the cost of a frankly old American with our new helicopter, which is in no way inferior (at least lol ) It became directly interesting how much the maintenance and use of these machines cost. In addition, there is a question about the complexity of training pilots, all the same it is important not only the weapon itself, but also the conditions for its actual use.
  24. RUSEV
    RUSEV April 2 2016 10: 05
    -35%
    Who allows these illiterate students to write these articles?
    Read and enlighten http://www.airwar.ru/enc/ah/ah64e.html
    The ability of the AH-64D Apache Block III Level 4 to directly control UAVs and receive real-time data significantly expands the capabilities of the helicopter in four directions:

    Khan to all your superfood shells and tori. You only dream about such a helicopter! Damn ass compared with a finger. Ka-52 is a dump, it is not given to it to have those systems that Apache has!
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov April 2 2016 11: 18
      +7
      Quote: RUSEV
      Who allows these illiterate students to write these articles?

      And who allows illiterate schoolchildren to discuss it? 8)))
      The probability of meeting "Apaches" with "Shells" is near-zero. For the reason that the latter are part of the air defense system. They don't wander around the battlefield ...

      But what you remembered about the "Torah", capable of shooting down the "Apaches" themselves, and the drones they control, and even the "Helfires", which you can try (and not the fact that it will work) with external illumination.
      Damn, Poland, which was not even particularly outstanding in terms of military development, managed to independently develop a warning system for irradiating armored objects with a laser beam.

      Quote: RUSEV
      The ability of the AH-64D Apache Block III Level 4 to directly control UAVs and receive real-time data significantly expands the capabilities of the helicopter in four directions:

      This "opportunity" testifies to the inability of Americans to fulfill those postulates of network centricity, about which they have been talking a lot for a long time. We have to take a step back to reconnaissance and strike complexes
      1. Operator
        Operator April 3 2016 12: 18
        +3
        Do not bother yourself with arguments for a guest worker - Turkish plasterer Abdulhakim "Rusev".
    2. Proud.
      Proud. April 2 2016 11: 47
      +1
      Quote: RUSEV
      Khan to all your superfood shells and tori. You only dream about such a helicopter! Damn ass compared with a finger. Ka-52 is a dump, it is not given to it to have those systems that Apache has!

      “Mister,” you are a clinical “little boy.” “Little boy,” because you use not comparison, but lobbying. An American patient. Clinical, because you don’t notice that your statements are a trash heap. Run for injections, a vegetable.
    3. aiw
      aiw April 2 2016 21: 50
      0
      > The ability of the AH-64D Apache Block III Level 4 to directly control the UAV and receive data in real time significantly expands the helicopter's capabilities in four directions

      In four, in which? If left-right-forward-backward, there is still top-bottom, not to mention diagonals ... fellow

      > Who allows these semi-literate students to write these articles?

      Well, someone let you write comments here hi
  25. Jatviag
    Jatviag April 2 2016 10: 10
    -4
    The journalist is not even aware that the American helicopter costs 30mm., And not 20mm. a gun . Great specialist! :)
    1. serverny
      serverny April 2 2016 13: 31
      +4
      Quote: JATVIAG
      30mm., Not 20mm. a gun

      Here, the author was mistaken, but does not cancel the fact that 2A42 shells are much higher in combat power.
      M230 uses a projectile 30x113 mm, and 2A42 - 30x165 mm. Due to the smaller weight of gunpowder in the shells and the shorter barrel, the Chain Gun has a smaller effective fire range: about 1,5-2 kilometers. In addition, it should be noted that 2A42 is an automatic gun with a gas exhaust system, and M230, as its name implies, is made according to the scheme of an automatic gun with an external drive. Thus, Chain Gan requires an external power supply to operate the automation.

      In Iraq, there were cases when the generator was damaged from a rifle and the helicopter lost the ability to fire from a cannon.
  26. The comment was deleted.
  27. The comment was deleted.
    1. mav1971
      mav1971 April 2 2016 14: 30
      +3
      Quote: Red Army of the USSR
      Quote: JATVIAG
      The journalist is not even aware that the American helicopter costs 30mm., And not 20mm. a gun . Great specialist! :)

      And you, I see a specialist from birth, Vasya.


      Why this opus?
      if the author really "sucked out"?
      Writes about the main weapon - wrong ...

      you are the same illiterate Vasyatka, why are you better?
  28. Sergey-8848
    Sergey-8848 April 2 2016 12: 07
    +2
    Somewhere in 1989-90. in "ZVO" an article was published about the simulation of the battle of two promising helicopters - more maneuverable and more armed. The outcome of the battle was something like this - the more maneuverable one would have time to dodge and fire a second missile almost at the tail of the enemy. Conclusion from the article - you cannot sacrifice one quality for the sake of gaining an advantage in another. In the arms race, if you rest on the laurels created by image makers, you will be overtaken very quickly and the apparent advantage will become an inconvenient brake both in the arms trade and in its combat use.
  29. Andrey VOV
    Andrey VOV April 2 2016 12: 38
    +1
    1. India bought Apache instead of MI 28 .. it’s clear that the first one has more experience in operation and use.
    2. How many times in history were helicopter fights like fighters ??
    3.Everything is fine, suddenly saw how cheap and efficiently our specialists came up with the bombing with conventional bombs, but with superb accuracy .. I think soon there will be an effective weapon "fire and forget" at the turntable, but cheaper and more effective.
    4. He sees further and shoots further, he can be completely leveled by air defense systems attached to the army and formations during combat operations, and when used correctly, Apaches will stray at times.
    5. Do not forget about the system (sorry I forgot to pick up), which is already installed on MI-8, protection against missiles, for sure this can be put on the "alligator".
    6. Well, now in Syria our turntables are undergoing a combat run-in .. The SU-34, although in a small amount and not so long, has shown itself to be chic and will not be surprised about the lineup of customers ..
    in general, there are many arguments that can be made both for and against, but ... we are moving forward, our designers, despite all the difficulties of the current period, are not sitting idly by ... and on Motz's eyes ... the most important thing ... the outcome of the battle ultimately does not piece of iron, albeit the smartest, and the person controlling the piece of iron, pulling the trigger, and so on.
    1. mav1971
      mav1971 April 2 2016 14: 48
      0
      Quote: Andrey VOV


      1. Helicopter fights. Yes, especially not met. But 35-40 has been modeled for years. And the tactics have been worked out for a long time.
      2. About "damn effectively" - this is probably due to our advanced aircraft controllers? Real Heroes, without unnecessary pompous and others. And the best pilots in the country? Which were collected and shipped? But not outdated technology. Alas. An ordinary pilot can do nothing without a gunner.
      3. Air defense systems at the forefront are practically useless - an easily visible, easily destroyed and the highest priority target. All the same, they are at least a little behind.
      In addition, the battle can be not only over "own" territory, but also over neutral and enemy territory. Where then will "their" air defense be?
      4. The "Lever" system, as I understand it, occupies almost the entire internal volume of the Mi-8. In the current situation, it is not capable of being installed on combat helicopters. Well, it won't fit anywhere. For it, it is necessary to create a combat helicopter based on the MI-26. There she will fit and even pick up weapons :)

      5. Syria was needed for our designers like air. That is yes. I agree here.
      If, as it was said as far back as 7-10 years ago, that by the 2020 years (which is why the program was called 2020), a real war will surely happen. and the timing is right. Here, at least somehow, combat experience and conclusions can be drawn from the existing one.
  30. Lopatov
    Lopatov April 2 2016 12: 39
    +3
    The article is not even at the level of "who is stronger, a whale or an elephant"
    An article of the level "dads, will the elephant whale win?"

    They can only cross each other on the battlefield by chance. Trying to make a fighter out of a combat helicopter is utter folly. They need air-to-air missiles solely so that they do not become an "easy target" for enemy fighter aircraft

    And even to compare "who is stronger" is not justified. For the Ka-52 and the Apache are representatives of completely different schools of using combat helicopters.
    The Apache element is an ambush. Everything in him is tailored for this. Starting with the nadzulochny radar, and ending with specialized UAVs for work in conjunction with it, which since the spring of last year went to the troops (earlier their functions were performed by the reconnaissance "Kiowas")
    Ka-52 is a direct successor of the "Crocodile" Mi-24. Which did not really know how to hang.
    1. andrey-ivanov
      andrey-ivanov April 2 2016 13: 22
      +3
      Ka-52 is a direct successor of the "Crocodile" Mi-24. Which did not really know how to hang.

      The Mi-24 really could not hang for a long time due to its design features. But such a task was not set in the initial requirements for the car. The very concept of the "flying infantry fighting vehicle" turned out to be somewhat flawed, which led to a sharp increase in the size and weight of the vehicle. But who can say today that the Mi-24 is a "toothless" and harmless machine? But the Ka-50/52 can hang. And for a very long time.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov April 2 2016 18: 20
        +1
        Quote: andrey-ivanov
        The very concept of a "flying BMP" turned out to be somewhat flawed.

        Rather, he did not participate in the wars for which he was trained. Therefore, the concept of a "flying infantry fighting vehicle was more likely not useful than defective.

        By the way, Apache has the same thing.
      2. venik
        venik April 2 2016 19: 36
        0
        I don’t think that the presence of a small and cramped cockpit for 8 paratroopers somehow dramatically increased the weight of the Mi-24. The machine itself is huge (as for attack helicopters), which is not surprising - it was made on the basis of the Mi-8 units, hence the dimensions, which are quite sufficient to accommodate an assault cockpit in an empty space. It is rather a passing, additional "option" with minimal costs. Well, it didn't really come in handy, although to be honest it was used at times ...
        And as for the ability of the Kama turntables to hang - then they definitely have no equal - the coaxial circuit !!!
    2. mav1971
      mav1971 April 2 2016 23: 15
      0
      Quote: Spade
      The article is not even at the level of "who is stronger, a whale or an elephant"
      An article of the level "dads, will the elephant whale win?"

      They can only cross each other on the battlefield by chance. Trying to make a fighter out of a combat helicopter is utter folly. They need air-to-air missiles solely so that they do not become an "easy target" for enemy fighter aircraft


      Do not be so categorical. Americans out of SuperCobra easily make a fighter if necessary. a hitch of stingers and even Sidewinders - quite a battle regime for himself if necessary. And he has no equal in this.
      We also experimented with the suspensions of various UR Air-Air. And it is in counter-helicopter use.
      And the fact that we have so little information on ours is so because there was no light combat helicopter, according to the Cobra class. I think. that is the only reason.
  31. andrey-ivanov
    andrey-ivanov April 2 2016 13: 14
    +3
    The single-seat concept of the KA-50 has already been recognized by all as incorrect. It turns out that the KA-50 could effectively act only as our MI-24Ps are operating in Syria now. That in itself is not bad, but we still do not have ATGMs "fired and forgot" and will not soon be. The concept of a single-seat attack helicopter makes sense only if there is such a missile, an automated search and acquisition system for target tracking, which will operate at 360 degrees. The turret with the cannon should also be fully automated so that the pilot only has to make the decision to open fire and press the trigger. Then, in combination with a new helmet, such a helicopter will be able to effectively hit targets that are not directly in the direction of the helicopter. At the same time, the pilot himself will not be greatly distracted from piloting for firing.
    This degree of automation will greatly increase not only the cost of the helicopter itself, but the same ATGMs will cost several times more expensive than the current ones (up to 7 times). At the same time, what to do with goals that cannot be taken for accompaniment is not clear ...

    Generally, the level of automation of the Ka-50/52 is higher than that of the Mi-28. That is why it was possible to create an effective helicopter with one pilot. So far, no helicopter has an automated 360-degree target tracking system. Yes, and ATGMs operating on the "fire and forget" principle, with a radar guidance system, are still in service with only the Apaches, and even then the Americans are using the Hellfire laser version with might and main. Domestic attack helicopters are created to work on the battlefield, with active opposition from the enemy. These are "irons" that must destroy everything under them, acting directly over the enemy. Therefore, the requirements for combat survivability are increased. The Apache concept is based on a slightly different principle - it received target designation, crept up to the target, hovered behind a hillock or building, aligned the longitudinal axis of the vehicle with the target, then a sharp climb, launch missiles and again into cover until it flew back. Such is the tactic of shooting from around the corner.
    1. veselcak
      veselcak April 2 2016 16: 25
      0
      Quote: andrey-ivanov
      The single-seat concept of the KA-50 has already been recognized by all as incorrect. It turns out that the KA-50 could effectively act only as our MI-24Ps are operating in Syria now. That in itself is not bad, but we still do not have ATGMs "fired and forgot" and will not soon be. The concept of a single-seat attack helicopter makes sense only if there is such a missile, an automated search and acquisition system for target tracking, which will operate at 360 degrees. The turret with the cannon should also be fully automated so that the pilot only has to make the decision to open fire and press the trigger. Then, in combination with a new helmet, such a helicopter will be able to effectively hit targets that are not directly in the direction of the helicopter. At the same time, the pilot himself will not be greatly distracted from piloting for firing.
      This degree of automation will greatly increase not only the cost of the helicopter itself, but the same ATGMs will cost several times more expensive than the current ones (up to 7 times). At the same time, what to do with goals that cannot be taken for accompaniment is not clear ...

      Generally, the level of automation of the Ka-50/52 is higher than that of the Mi-28. That is why it was possible to create an effective helicopter with one pilot. So far, no helicopter has an automated 360-degree target tracking system. Yes, and ATGMs operating on the "fire and forget" principle, with a radar guidance system, are still in service with only the Apaches, and even then the Americans are using the Hellfire laser version with might and main. Domestic attack helicopters are created to work on the battlefield, with active opposition from the enemy. These are "irons" that must destroy everything under them, acting directly over the enemy. Therefore, the requirements for combat survivability are increased. The Apache concept is based on a slightly different principle - it received target designation, crept up to the target, hovered behind a hillock or building, aligned the longitudinal axis of the vehicle with the target, then a sharp climb, launch missiles and again into cover until it flew back. Such is the tactic of shooting from around the corner.


      Are the Apache tactics alien to us, or have we not reached it yet?
  32. serverny
    serverny April 2 2016 13: 24
    +3
    Quote: Nagan
    hide behind landscape elements, exposing only a radar, and shoot rockets of the enemy’s armor

    The tactics invented by couch experts, which in practice did not prove their effectiveness and led to unnecessary losses.
    In fact, the Americans have now abandoned this idea, because little sense, but helicopters hovering low without armor get off at times from light small arms.
    1. mav1971
      mav1971 April 2 2016 23: 21
      0
      Quote: serverny
      Quote: Nagan
      hide behind landscape elements, exposing only a radar, and shoot rockets of the enemy’s armor

      The tactics invented by couch experts, which in practice did not prove their effectiveness and led to unnecessary losses.
      In fact, the Americans have now abandoned this idea, because little sense, but helicopters hovering low without armor get off at times from light small arms.


      Did you come up with this yourself?
      You yourself understand. where exactly does the helicopter hang?

      In your opinion, it flies to the enemy’s positions ... and freezes ... Waiting ... Well, when will they bring me down ...

      You understand that. what nonsense are you talking about?
      That's just the strategy of ironing the carousel and led to the Karbala losses ...
      And it’s precisely the sofa experts who continue to bear a little about ironing everything on the go and in sight ...
      Network-centricity, ambush tactics - this is the real future of combat attack helicopters.
      Ideas IL-2, however, went into oblivion.
  33. _my opinion
    _my opinion April 2 2016 13: 41
    0
    ... "in the war, it is not the one who shoots the other who wins, but the one who changes his mind" (from the movie "The Dawns Here Are Quiet" (c), Soviet, and not the fake that was recently shown in cinemas). ... I can't vouch for the accuracy of the phrase, but the essence is as follows ...
  34. Jatviag
    Jatviag April 2 2016 13: 53
    +1
    Quote: Red Army of the USSR
    Quote: JATVIAG
    The journalist is not even aware that the American helicopter costs 30mm., And not 20mm. a gun . Great specialist! :)

    And you, I see a specialist from birth, Vasya.

    Unlike you, I have a real title, not an Internet one. I am a reserve officer in the Red Army since 1983. Urya-patriots can at least get out of their way; facts are stubborn things. You will see Vasya in your mirror.
  35. iouris
    iouris April 2 2016 13: 59
    +2
    I see no reason to compare the Apache with the Ka-50. they are generally not "duelists".
    In addition, the Ka-50 was created as a single for group actions. To organize group actions of the Ka-50 unit, a special modification was developed - Ka-52. That is the point. But this is the difficulty. Apparently the time has not yet come for the implementation of the idea.
  36. marshes
    marshes April 2 2016 14: 13
    0
    Actually, it was interesting to read about the development of attack helicopters of the "small-light" class of the Cobra type, with a stretch, ANSAT-2 is more suitable.
    Here, you can really earn.
  37. Torins
    Torins April 2 2016 16: 10
    +1
    Quote: cast iron
    The author of the Ka52 armor wrote nonsense. Aviation armor cannot repel anti-aircraft gun fire. God forbid, if it reflects 12,7 mm, then that is not a fact. A helicopter with armored plates cannot weigh like a heavy infantry fighting vehicle.

    Oh, not your truth)) The armor of the Ka-50 withstood hits from 20 mm guns) The SU-25 has a titanium "bath" that protects the cockpit withstands hits from 30 mm guns. I generally keep quiet about shrapnel of anti-aircraft missiles))
  38. veselcak
    veselcak April 2 2016 16: 20
    0
    Quote: mav1971
    Quote: veselcak
    With rockets "fired and forgot" the trouble .. And until the situation in this regard is evened out, Apaches look more profitable for the same India! The main task of these helicopters is to defeat armored vehicles, and not to patrol urban-type terrain, which is credited to the Alligator


    Do not believe it, but the latest version of Apache, as the Defender, is precisely the apparatus of the battlefield. Including patrolling.
    Equipping him with the Link 16 system allows him to receive information from a variety of sources, from a special forces soldier and neighboring helicopters to strategic reconnaissance drones.
    Moreover, BIUS itself forms the battlefield for him.
    The helicopter became network-centric.



    I meant that the author of the article led to the fact that patrolling Apache at low altitudes in an urban area is not his horse ... Only because of his weaker booking ... Maybe it is, but I personally did not mean that Apache is not suitable in this regard! I’m saying that he has better sights and missiles, and even if he is not designed to fly over the heads of militants (in the form of a target), this is not required of him, there is a different battle philosophy (missiles are more expensive, an expensive helicopter is more intact)
  39. Just BB
    Just BB April 2 2016 17: 41
    0
    Interesting information about the Ka-50 ("eightieth" - this is how we learned about it):

    http://www.airwar.ru/enc/ah/ka50.html
  40. complete zero
    complete zero April 2 2016 20: 35
    +2
    It is unlikely that Russia will catch up with the United States in the number of KA-52s (this is an expensive pleasure), so it is positioned as a helicopter for "special assignments" the stake is still placed on the Mi-28 ... A serious minus for the Apache is weak protection ... in the air defense zone of the Apaches " ordered a road "(unlike the Mi-24) which is not so much a helicopter but a real STURMOVIK ... I read an interview with an American special forces soldier who" got acquainted "with the Mi 24 ..." - I fired at him from a machine gun, saw ricochets from glass ... this Russian guy looked at me and smiled "There is another interesting story of a pilot from the Combat Operations Center (how" friends "flew to them on the Apaches) ..-" I kicked the Apache at the door with my boot (mint) .. and invited my colleague to do this the same with the Mi-24, he saw the end of the open door and refused "... So what kind of Apache is there, why do you need a COMBAT HELICOPTER (for parades?)
  41. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh April 3 2016 11: 22
    0
    The author somehow forgot to mention the Apache radar.
    And this is one of its main "parts".
    Apache sees day and night on the radar, and not visually.
    1. complete zero
      complete zero April 3 2016 14: 05
      0
      yes do not care that he sees a normal board should be protected, armed with weapons for attack and at the same time carry an assault ... then this is a HELICOPTER (the rest is a sham)
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh April 3 2016 15: 43
        0
        "yes, I don't care what he sees" ////

        Oh here? If you see far, then shoot from afar.
        Then no attack is required, and therefore armor.
        1. complete zero
          complete zero April 3 2016 20: 47
          0
          yes I put on your distance
  42. Operator
    Operator April 3 2016 12: 53
    -5
    The Ka-52 is the most unsuccessful project of the Kamov Design Bureau.

    The coaxial helicopter has an irreparable flaw - when the vortex ring enters the vortex ring mode, the rotor blades are guaranteed to overlap and the helicopter crashes.

    Actually, the Ka-52 model is designed as illiterate as possible from the point of combat of two people - the pilot and the weapons operator do not see the air / ground situation obscured from them by another crew member.

    Therefore, the only Russian helicopter capable of being on an equal footing with the American Apache is the Mi-28 of the latest modifications. Its thrust-to-weight ratio and, consequently, climb rate are in no way inferior to the Ka-52. On descent, the single-rotor Mi-28 is capable of breaking out of the vortex ring mode without falling like a stone. The weight efficiency of the design of the Mi-28 is higher due to the abandonment of the second main rotor. The additional costs for the Mi-28 tail rotor drive are fully offset by the higher propulsive efficiency of the single-rotor main rotor as compared to the Ka-52 twin-rotor.

    As for the possibility of bailout from the Ka-52, this is a golovish trash, bailout consists in pulling each crew member with a special rocket out of the overalls straps (without a chair) through the cabin’s glazing, which is broken by explosives. Before ejection, all rotor blades are shot off, so pulling always occurs during uncontrolled helicopter flight.
    Since the Ka-52 is piloted by intelligent people, not one of them in an emergency has ever used the "ejection" option to leave the vehicle. The pilots either died in a collision with the ground or got out of the cockpit after an emergency landing.

    PS The only area of ​​application for coaxial helicopters is based on ships in cramped take-off and landing conditions.
  43. Geser
    Geser April 3 2016 13: 27
    +1
    A helicopter of the "Apache" type or our "Alligator" should fight both in local wars as a hunter for partisans, and as a helicopter for fire support of the advancing troops, in conditions when the enemy has cover in the form of SPAAGs of the "Shilka", "Tunguska" type, complexes Thor and Carapace. The main advantage of our Alligator is survivability based on reliable armor protection and the experience of local wars from Afghanistan to Chechnya. "Apache", judging by the article, has low survivability, there have been cases when it was shot down with a burst from a machine gun, which is unacceptable for a fire support helicopter. This means that the Apache would not have survived in Chechnya, where our helicopters were fired at not only from machine guns, but also from DShK and Stingers. What then can we say about the enemy having air defense systems in the form of air defense systems, MANPADS such as "Stinger", "Igla", "Pantsir", in combination with electronic warfare systems? By the way, the article does not indicate how well the Apache and our Alligator are protected from the effects of electronic warfare systems designed to disable electronics and intelligence and communications systems, whether they have optoelectronic warfare systems (KOEB) in their arsenal that allow them to deal with controlled air defense missiles. But in general, the conclusion is that our helicopter is much more reliable than the American one.
  44. complete zero
    complete zero April 3 2016 13: 59
    0
    Quote: Operator
    The Ka-52 is the most unsuccessful project of the Kamov Design Bureau.

    The coaxial helicopter has an irreparable flaw - when the vortex ring enters the vortex ring mode, the rotor blades are guaranteed to overlap and the helicopter crashes.

    Actually, the Ka-52 model is designed as illiterate as possible from the point of combat of two people - the pilot and the weapons operator do not see the air / ground situation obscured from them by another crew member.

    Therefore, the only Russian helicopter capable of being on an equal footing with the American Apache is the Mi-28 of the latest modifications. Its thrust-to-weight ratio and, consequently, climb rate are in no way inferior to the Ka-52. On descent, the single-rotor Mi-28 is capable of breaking out of the vortex ring mode without falling like a stone. The weight efficiency of the design of the Mi-28 is higher due to the abandonment of the second main rotor. The additional costs for the Mi-28 tail rotor drive are fully offset by the higher propulsive efficiency of the single-rotor main rotor as compared to the Ka-52 twin-rotor.

    As for the possibility of bailout from the Ka-52, this is a golovish trash, bailout consists in pulling each crew member with a special rocket out of the overalls straps (without a chair) through the cabin’s glazing, which is broken by explosives. Before ejection, all rotor blades are shot off, so pulling always occurs during uncontrolled helicopter flight.
    Since the Ka-52 is piloted by intelligent people, not one of them in an emergency has ever used the "ejection" option to leave the vehicle. The pilots either died in a collision with the ground or got out of the cockpit after an emergency landing.

    PS The only area of ​​application for coaxial helicopters is based on ships in cramped take-off and landing conditions.

    you are considering combat helicopters, the task of which is to STORM the position as what kind of "computer soldiers" ... what the hell is an Apache if he is PAPER ... THIS IS THE MAIN THING AND NOT HIS TURNS
    1. Operator
      Operator April 3 2016 15: 19
      -1
      I considered Mi-28 in comparison with Ka-52.
      1. Just BB
        Just BB April 3 2016 19: 23
        +1
        After it was announced that the Ka-50 would become a two-seater and that such a variant would be adopted, I no longer doubted that his (Ka-52) fate was "decided."
        If the 50th replayed 28, then the 52nd chance of this is less: the poor location of the crew, worse booking.
        Time now plays into the hands of the Mi-28, if they manage to "cure childhood diseases" faster, then it will be difficult for the 52nd.
        And it’s not at all because of the overlap of the screws - the usual scheme also has aerodynamic disadvantages.
        "Look for someone who benefits from it ..."
        1. Operator
          Operator April 3 2016 20: 19
          -1
          A helicopter with one rotor has only one aerodynamic drawback - loss of controllability in a crosswind directed along the tail rotor. But this drawback manifests itself only in vertical take-off and landing, when the pilot incorrectly positions the helicopter relative to the wind.

          In flight and during take-off / landing with mileage, the uniaxial helicopter is fully controllable relative to the wind using the rudder and the rotor blockage (with the transition to slip mode).

          The Mi-28's problem was purely mechanical - it lagged behind the Ka-52 in climb rate for a long time due to the unpreparedness of the single-propeller gearbox to "digest" the same maximum power as the double-rotor gearbox. Therefore, in the flight characteristics of the Mi-28, a lower power was indicated than in the flight characteristics of the Ka-52 with the same engines.
          As far as I know, they solved this problem last year.
        2. NEXUS
          NEXUS April 3 2016 21: 21
          +1
          Quote: Just BB
          Time now plays into the hands of the Mi-28, if they manage to "cure childhood diseases" faster, then it will be difficult for the 52nd.

          I’m interested in what will a helicopter with a torn or damaged steering wheel do? Many experts say that the coaxial scheme is more productive and more functional.
      2. The comment was deleted.
  45. Evil 55
    Evil 55 April 3 2016 14: 49
    0
    KA-52 is a complete flying "p..ts" for any sane person .. He passed me at an altitude of 20 m ... I felt much more comfortable under the tank ..
  46. cedar
    cedar April 3 2016 16: 51
    +2
    The article is certainly useful. There were no perfect cars. If the USSR had not been conquered by the West, the Ka 50 and Mi 28 would have been adopted if they were armed, no doubt this tandem that would complement each other would be very effective in solving a variety of combat missions. But with the collapse of the army and the military-industrial complex, it was necessary to choose which of the two helicopters to go into the troops, and which plant to give work to. The choice fell on Mi 28. I really hope that the Ka 50 will be reborn in its new reincarnation, even more powerful and beautiful!
  47. nesvobodnye
    nesvobodnye April 3 2016 18: 24
    +1
    Comparison of characteristics is good and correct, but do not discount the more important value - pilot training. Who is better prepared will survive.
  48. Dr. Lecturer
    Dr. Lecturer April 4 2016 14: 05
    -1
    Quote: Lex.

    Well, they began to measure pipiskiiiii. Well, yes, they do not have one, we have another. Well, and what follows from this. So, minus both.
  49. Falcon5555
    Falcon5555 April 4 2016 14: 56
    0
    The 52nd does not seem to rise as high as the 50th. And the 50th is higher than the 28th. Good for the mountains. One person - it may seem a little now, but computers are improving. When that and one will not be necessary. And before that there will certainly be a period when one will be just right. But two screws are expensive, vulnerable, and the problem of overlaps. In addition, if in the Russian army helicopters will now shoot only from the summer, like 24-ki, then it is not at all clear why helicopters, and not low-speed attack aircraft. The only thing is vertical take-off and the possibility of aerodrome-free basing. This is important for war against a superior adversary. But for counterguerrilla wars - why? They would give the ground forces the right to receive aircraft, I think they would use it with pleasure. Maybe they would not only have taken the Su-25s, but would have remembered something like the Il-2 on modern technology - compact turboprop engines, better armor, a simple design, there is no such noise as that rumble from a helicopter, unmasking its for tens of kilometers. The ability to leave without the prospect of turning into mincemeat due to helicopter propellers. Why not? Fancy amateur?
  50. Sarma
    Sarma April 5 2016 04: 54
    0
    Whoever shows stronger only the real battle, and while these helicopters did not fight in the sky, this is all the theory. However, if we recall the battles between helicopters during the Iran-Iraq war, where Bell-24 was used against the Mi-209, then the advantage remained for the Mi-24