Military Review

Etruscans vs Romans (part 2)

38
The second material on the Etruscan warfare will be based on the work of English-speaking historians again, the services of which were the museums of Rome and Tuscany and, of course, British museums, which contain many interesting finds. Perhaps the most accessible to the Russian reader in this regard was and remains Peter Connoli, whose book “Greece and Rome in wars” (in Russian translation “Greece and Rome. Encyclopedia of military stories") Was released by Eksmo ... sixteen years ago. That is ... gradually becomes a rarity, and many have not read it just because of their age. An interesting publication is the English translation by the French author Michel Figere.Weapon Romans ”(2002), where there is also a section on Etruscans and their weapons, although not a big one. And although there are no color illustrations in it, but only graphics and black-and-white photos, this is an excellent work for all who are interested in the military affairs of Rome.


Etruscans vs Romans (part 2)

Situ from Chiusi VII c. BC er (610 - 600). “Women with braids are standing, and a man in a Corinthian type helmet with a crest is approaching them. But women ignore him, which can be seen in the hands proudly crossed on the chest. ” Archaeological Museum of Florence.

In the first article, “Etruscans vs. the Russians,” it was about where the Etruscans, together with their cows, moved to Italy. Now it will be a question of the fact that here the Etruscans founded the city-polis of the Greek sample, and each Etruscan city, just like the Greek polis, began to have its own army. Cities were allies, but very rarely acted together, which greatly weakened them. For some kind of hike, they could join forces, but more often they squandered strength in the struggle of one city with another.

In the VII century. BC. the Etruscans adopted the Greek tactics and the Greek phalanx. Accordingly, they used the construction of 12 on 8 hoplites with four commanders of the hurricanes.


Situ from Chiusi, on which the warriors in the Hoplit arms are clearly visible. Archaeological Museum of Florence.

Like the later Romans, the Etruscans tried to use the army that the allies or the conquered peoples supplied them. Peter Connolly believes that the Roman army in the early history of Rome was a typical Etruscan army. Under Tarquinius the Ancient - the first Etruscan king of Rome, it included three parts: the Etruscans (built by phalanx), the Romans and the Latins. Warriors armed with spears, axes and darts were placed on the flanks, as reported by Polybius, who saw with his own eyes the text of the very first treaty with Carthage, concluded around 509 BC According to him, it was written in archaic Latin, so that it could only be partially understood.


Etruscan warrior from Viterbe. OK. 500 BC Louvre

Servius Tullius, the second of the Etruscan kings, being of Latin origin, decided to reorganize the army according to income, instead of origin. It was established six ranks, the very first of which included the most wealthy people, who numbered 80 Centuries in the Roman account, or suckers in Greek. Most of these people, apparently, were the same Etruscans. Soldiers from this level had to have a helmet, armor, leggings, a shield, a spear, and, of course, a sword. Titus Livius used the word clipeus, “clypeus,” to describe their shield, and Dionysius called the shields of this centurion Argolian (Argive) shields. That is, all these people were armed as hoplites and were built to fight with a phalanx. At their disposal were two centuries of master gunsmiths and builders (they were called fabri - “masters”, hence the words “factory”), which did not participate in the battles themselves.


Etruscan shield from Tarquin. Altes Museum, Berlin.

In the second category were listed 20 Centuries. Armed these soldiers were simpler and, in particular, did not have armors and used the shield Scutum instead of the more expensive Argive shield. Both Dionysius and Diodorus unanimously claimed that it was rectangular, and archeology confirmed this. It was discovered the famous Kertos sieve of 500 BC, adorned with embossing with images of warriors with Argive, oval and also rectangular shields in their hands. That is, it is obvious that the shape of the shields was the most different, and that there was no single sample!


Kertos sieve. And on it are images of warriors, around 500 BC. Studying them suggests that in Italy three types of shields were used at the same time. It is possible that on it we see typical Etruscan warriors of this time. Museum of Archeology in Bologna, Italy.

The third rank also consisted of 20 Centuries. These warriors were distinguished by the absence of a leg, apparently costing quite expensive, if their presence or absence had such a striking effect on income. At 20, the centuries shared the fourth rank. Livy reports that they were armed with a spear and a dart, but Dionysius armed them with a scutum, and a spear, and a sword. The fifth category of 30 centurions in Libya consisted of slingers, while Dionysius also added to the slingers dart throwers who fought out of action. In the fifth grade consisted of two centurias of the hornbreakers and trumpeters. Finally, the poorest population was completely exempted from military service. The army was subdivided according to age into veterans serving in the cities, while stronger young people participated in campaigns outside their territory.


Etruscan ceramic vessel depicting fighting warriors. One of them is dressed in a typical "flax shell". Martin von Wagner Museum, University Museum (Würzburg).

That is, the difference that gives us the description of these two ancient authors is small, so there’s no reason not to believe them. Most likely, the second, third and fourth ranks acted on the flanks in the same way as the Allies did before the reform of Servius Tullius. Livy, however, claims that they formed the second, third and fourth row in the general order of battle. If all the Roman citizens formed the central part of the army, then maybe this order was just the prototype of the legion of the republican era, when the various armies were built together in three lines. Otherwise it is difficult to imagine what such a construction looked like in reality. Whatever it was, it is known that when it was necessary to convene an army, each centuria collected the required number of soldiers. So, if the ten thousandth army was needed, then each centurion equipped two enomotii, that is, 50 people.


Etruscan funerary urn, mid-II millennium BC The Worcester Museum of Art in Worcester, Massachusetts, USA.

Then the Etruscans were expelled from Rome, but at the same time the army lost a large part of the soldiers belonging to the first class. Naturally, this lowered the level of its combat capability. No wonder Livy wrote that the round shields (and, consequently, the phalanx) were used by the Romans until the introduction of pay for the service at the end of V century. With the liquidation of royal power, the role of the commanders was assumed by two praetors, whose institute functioned until the middle of the 4th century, each of which commanded half of the army.


Etruscans against the Romans. Etruscan warriors from the Church of Purgi in Cerveteri ca. 550 - 500 BC. National Etruscan Museum, Villa Julia, Rome.

Just like Livy, Dionysius of Halicarnassus reports on the reorganization of the Etruscan-Roman army, which he conducted in the middle of the 6th century. Servius Tullius. Both messages are, in fact, identical and most likely to date back to Fabius Lictor, who wrote the history of Rome about 200 BC. It is believed that his information is based on the documents of that era. In any case, the post of praetor - commander of veteran warriors - was maintained at a later time under the name of praetor urbanus, although his functions now referred exclusively to judicial activities. The two main magistrates were now called consuls, and the word "praetor" meant second-level magistrates; during Polybius there were already six of them.


Achilles bandages the wounded Patroclus. Both figures in linothoraxes ("linen shells"), reinforced with scales, untied the left shoulder of Patroclus straightened. Image from a red-figured vase from Vulci, around 500 BC. er The painting of the red-figure attic vessel. State museums, Old Museum, Antique collection, Berlin.

The warriors, who belonged to the phalanx and belonged to the first category, had weapons of the Greek type, that is, a round Argive shield, an embossed bronze shell, anatomical leggings, a helmet, a spear and a sword. However, although the Etruscans fought with phalanxes, even their axes are found in their burials, which can hardly be fought while being in close formation. But perhaps, Connolly writes, these weapons were put in the tomb according to custom. On the other hand, it was possible to fight with an ax one-on-one fights, such as the one shown in the sculpture of two hoplites from Faleria Veteres. They are both armed on the Greek model, in addition to the crooked dagger in the hand of one of the fighters. But one thing is the weapon in the composition of the burial gear, and in the phalanx it is definitely impossible to use an ax.


Modern reconstruction of the appearance of a warrior-Etruscan on finds in Tarquinia. Altes Museum, Berlin.

On the mural from Chery (the scientists call them their finds: “the warrior from Chery” or from somewhere else ...) shows a typical hoplite in a Halkid helmet and with round chest plates. The image of Chiusi shows the goplite in full Greek armament, but his helmet is decorated with feathers in Italian, and not Greek, pattern. Well, the finds in the “Warrior's Tomb in Vulci” (around 525 BC) give an example of the presence of mixed weapons: the helmet is nega, the Argheus shield and Greco-Etruscan type leggings.

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Etruscan ship. Painting in a tomb in Tarquinia.

Judging by the frescoes in the tombs, Greek shells among the Etruscans were widespread, the discoveries of chest plates in the form of a disk belonging to the first half of the 7th century are known. However, the exact dating of them is difficult, because where and when they were found, it remains unclear. The painting from Chery, which cannot be dated before the end of the 6th century, suggests that this type of armor was used and much later than the 7th century. By the way, we see the same disks on Assyrian bas-reliefs, and even later samples of them were found in Spain and also in central Europe. Connolly believes they are of clear eastern origin. "Painting of Cherie" shows that they are mounted on the torso with three straps, most likely leather. Why three? And on their back side there are usually three loops: two at the top and one at the bottom, which fixed this disk on the belts in a very ingenious way. Why it was impossible to fasten it on four belts crosswise, like those of the same Assyrians, is unknown. Although there are examples of such an attachment.

The most popular early helmet in Etruria was a helmet of the type of negau, which received its name from the name of the village in Yugoslavia, around which they were found in a multitude. An interesting copy was found in Olympia, and you can see it in the British Museum. The inscription on it says that a certain Hiero, son of Deinomenes, and the inhabitants of Syracuse, who captured him from the Etruscans in the naval battle of Coumés in 474 BC, dedicated him to the temple. The earliest sample of such a helmet, which can be dated, was found just in the “Warrior Tomb” in Vulci. Without any changes, they were used until the IV, and maybe even the III cc. BC. A characteristic feature of the Negau helmets was a bronze ring with holes along its inner edge, designed to fasten a balaclava, thanks to which it sat tightly on the head. The helmet had a low ridge, which was sometimes located across. P. Connolly notes that such helmets were worn by Roman centurions, and he is also on the famous statuette depicting the Spartan hoplite.


Etruscan warrior. "Mars from Todi". Gregorian Etruscan Museum, Vatican.

Of course, it is tempting to argue that it had any significance, for example, that such a decoration was a sign of distinction between lohagi; and why centurions then adopted it, of course. However, this is only speculation. There is no evidence for this opinion.

Leggings in Etruria were used of the Greek type, without an anatomically expressed knee. They were used the same way as nega-type helmets (that is, before the 4th-3rd centuries), and this is undoubtedly, as they are often found together.

Surprisingly, for some reason, in Etruria, protective armor for the hips, ankles and feet were used even when they were no longer used in continental Greece. The Bracers used it there just as long. Curved sword, or copis, common in Greece and Spain from VI to III centuries. BC, according to P. Connolly, can lead its origin from Etruria, since it was here that the earliest examples of these weapons, dating from the 7th century, were found. BC. The bronze “saber” from Este in northern Italy could have been the forerunner of this terrible weapon and confirms its Italian origin.


Magnificent finds from the “Warrior Tomb” in Lanuvia near Rome, dated to 480 BC. Combat equipment includes a bronze muscular (anatomical) cuirass (with traces of leather and linen lining), a bronze helmet such as nega (with gilding and silvering, as well as glass paste to simulate eye openings), and the sword is a copy. Other finds include a sports bronze disc, two iron body scrapers and a bottle for olive oil. National Museum "Baths of Diocletian", Rome.

Etruscan and early Greek swords of this type were chopping weapons with a blade about 60 - 65 in length. Later models from Macedonia and Spain represented cutting-piercing weapons with a blade that did not exceed 48 in length.


Breastplate from the Warrior Tomb.


The tombs of the Greeks and Etruscans differed greatly, and their views on the afterlife also differed. Here is the tomb of the archaeological reserve at Cape Makronides in Ayia Napa in Cyprus. The door is a little over a meter high, inside the room is a height of 1,5 m on two “beds” without a hint of painting. The Etruscans are completely different.

Etruscan spears had a variety of tips. For example, these are long tips related to the type of villanova. In the tomb of V c. in Vulci found a typical pilum tip, with a tube for mounting on the shaft. It means that at that time such weapons had already been fought, and it was known for a long time.

In the IV and III centuries. BC. in Etruria, they still continued to use the Greek heritage in the field of armaments, and then they also adopted their late classical Greek style. On the Amazons sarcophagus and on the tomb of Giloli (both monuments are located in Tarquinia) you can see images of typical IV Thracian helmets. BC. and linen shells, however, they began to cover with metal plates. They can be clearly seen, for example, on the famous statue of Mars from Todi, which is depicted in typical Etruscan armor. At the same time, images of chain mail have already appeared on the burial urns, that is, the Etruscans also knew them. And by design, it was all the same "linen breastplate", but only mail. Well, and the Romans adopted it, along with all the other "findings" of the peoples around Rome.

It is interesting that on Etruscan sculptures anatomical shells painted with gray paint are often seen. But this does not mean that they are iron; it is much more likely that they were simply silver or even tinned with tin, and maybe that they did in the Roman army later. The image of the muscles is usually strongly stylized, which makes it possible to easily distinguish the Etruscan armor from the Greek.


Tomb of the Lionesses in Tarquinia. Neither the Greeks nor the Slavs did not meet anything like that.

Full Etruscan armor found in the "Tomb of the Seven Rooms" in Orvieto, near Lake Bolsena. It consists of a typical Etruscan shell of the anatomical type, Greek Late Classical type leggings, an Argive shield, and a Montefortinsky type helmet with characteristic shoulder pads with three discs stamped on them. Pilum became a throwing weapon. The type of pilum with a sharp shank first appeared in northern Italy in the V century. A pilum with a flat tongue, which is inserted into the slot on the pole and fastened with one or two wooden rods, was depicted in the tomb of Giloli in Tarquinia, somewhere in the middle of the 4th century BC, but the earliest archaeological find of such a tip goes back to the end III century. and was made again in Etruria, in Telamon. Thus, P. Connolly concludes, the genesis of Etruscan weapons is directly related to the weapons and armor of the ancient Greeks, and then they borrowed (or invented) themselves, and the Romans, in turn, borrowed this from them.

But the most important thing in the Etruscan culture is again connected not even with their military affairs, but with the funeral rites. And this once again confirms the fact that the Etruscans had nothing in common with the Slavs. The fact is that the traditions of commemoration of the departed and their burials are among the most enduring. The custom of commemorative fights at the grave of the deceased, borrowed by the Romans as entertainment, the tradition of arranging painted tombs - we see nothing of this from the Slavs, there is not even a hint of it, and this is the most important attribute of spiritual culture that has been preserved for many hundreds, or even thousands. years old!


Etruscan vessel found in one of their tombs. That is how they looked in that distant time. Louvre

Visit the Gregorian Etruscan Museum of the Vatican will help here this site. There you can see the museum’s halls (and not only this museum itself) and photographs (and descriptions) of artifacts exhibited there: http://mv.vatican.va/3_EN/pages/MGE/MGE_Main.html
At the address below, you can find the alphabet, and the dictionary, and much more: http://www.etruskisch.de/pgs/og.htm
And here are all Etruscan news!
http://ancientstudies.as.nyu.edu/docs/CP/963/EtruscanNews10_winter.pdf
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  1. Cartalon
    Cartalon April 6 2016 06: 18
    +3
    A wonderful article, but the evidence that the Etruscans are not Slavs is unnecessary, you can’t prove to the science fiction writers, and the rest understand this.
    1. stopkran
      stopkran April 6 2016 06: 32
      +1
      P. Oreshkin "Babylonian Phenomenon"

      Description: A very rare book. It outlines methods for deciphering written monuments of Ancient Egypt, Ancient India and Western Europe using the ANCIENT RUSSIAN alphabet. Sensational results! After reading it, your whole attitude to history will change. The book will turn your mind!

      download http://www.twirpx.com/file/331699/
    2. venaya
      venaya April 6 2016 07: 14
      +1
      Etruscans - apparently this is a name of a later origin, that is, Latin, somewhere in the 450th year that captured the small border town of Rome and renamed its name in Roma in its own way. They called themselves differently - scatter, this self-name is described in the book of Yegor Klassen. Although, on the other hand, the presence of cities with the names Vienna, Venice, and Genoa suggests that before the Etruscans there lived people who were later called Venets. To say that the Etruscans might have borrowed something from the Greek is somewhat exaggerated, because the cultural level of the Greeks was nevertheless significantly lower, which the Greeks themselves admitted. If we talk about civilized nations, these nations were civilized by the Etruscans, that is, they, the Etruscans were civilizers of other culturally less developed nations. And as for the Slavs, it’s already a Latin term, more precisely, with sklevens, venets, sideboards, etc. - Latins later called their slaves, that is, a term of a later origin.
      1. Glot
        Glot April 6 2016 09: 03
        +1
        Etruscans - apparently this is a name of a later origin, that is, Latin, somewhere in the 450th year that captured the small border town of Rome and renamed its name in Roma in its own way. They called themselves differently - scatter


        Yeah, yes, of course - they were Russians. Culture is one to one! For all of Russia, from time immemorial, we also have the same tombs, vases and other ceramics, weapons and ammunition, language and writing.
        When are you so awesome, wenyaua-wa-wa ... Clown damn.
        1. venaya
          venaya April 6 2016 09: 22
          -6
          Quote: Glot
          Yeah, yes, of course - they were Russians.

          Look, the citizens are good, one more clown-Natsik on duty did not appear dusty. A long time ago he was gone. Let's talk about culture? What kind of culture can the Nazis have - only Nazi, hatred of all nations, even happens to their own, like the Fuhrer A. Hitler.
          "Culture is one to one!"- I remind you that even in both Americas the basic culture is the culture of Christianity. And what? So the aborigines of South America are Europeans ??? Logic zero, one hatred, hatred and hatred, absolutely everything. Please look at the contingent of psychiatric clinics, and those who hates Russia in all its manifestations - Bah, ... the same faces. ”Is that surprising?
          1. Glot
            Glot April 6 2016 11: 51
            0
            Look, the citizens are good, one more clown-Natsik on duty did not appear dusty. A long time ago he was gone.


            Yes, the clown here seems to be one until manifested - you.
            And what does Natsik have to do with it?

            Let's talk about culture? What kind of culture can the Nazis have - only Nazi, hatred of all nations, even happens to their own, like the Fuhrer A. Hitler.


            Do you want to talk about Hitler?
            This is not for me. He is of little interest to me.

            I remind you that even in both Americas the basic culture is the culture of Christianity. So what? So the natives of South America are Europeans ???


            What ?! Is Inca, Aztec culture Christian?
            Another stupidity fell out ...
            It means that you are a fool, and that’s all, it doesn’t mean anything else!

            Please look at the contingent of psychiatric clinics, and those who hate Russia in all its manifestations


            You know better. Do you often lie there? It seems, judging by the writings.
            It seems that the entire monitor was already drooling with drool in attempts to identify Russia and the Russians with the Etruscans, Incas, Greeks and all others.
            Go better at the sister and ask you to inject an additional chlorpromazine. A little more. You look calm down for a while.
          2. The comment was deleted.
        2. andrew42
          andrew42 15 November 2017 11: 29
          +1
          As for borrowing Etruscans from the Greeks, this is a delusional statement, here I completely agree with venaya. Even if you cling to the "Greek tradition", then excuse me, from WHICH "Greeks" did the Etruscans borrow? - From the Pelasgians? From the "peoples of the sea" -? From the wild Achaeans -? From the Dorians? Given the fact that the Achaeans, aka “Hellenes”, destroyed almost everything that remained of the true “Krito-Mycenaean” (so-called) Pelasgian culture - what could the Etruscans take from these half-savages? There is no need to be seven spans in the forehead to suggest that the Etruscan culture grows from the common root of the "pre-Santorini" culture of the "masters of the Mediterranean", namely the Minoans, Pelasgians and others like them. Well, not at all with savages like Agamemnon, or his brother Menelaus.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. andrew42
        andrew42 15 November 2017 11: 37
        +1
        Venaya, I'm on your side. Et-Russians, Russen, Tyrrhenes - if we take 1000 years for the cultural "generation" - these are our "cousins". Maybe "Mediterranean Russia" was called that, but something like that took place. But for Glot, "Etruscan is not readable," was not readable, and will never be read. Russen are not strangers to Russia. The race was, is, and will be there for a long time :)
  2. guzik007
    guzik007 April 6 2016 07: 33
    +1
    A very interesting sword from the grave of a warrior. It looks like a Turkish scimitar. But judging by the shape of the handle, it was held in the manner of a sickle. By the way, some modern combat knives have the same blade angle.
    1. gozmosZh
      gozmosZh April 6 2016 10: 04
      +1
      Quote: guzik007
      some modern combat knives have the same blade angle

      fellow
    2. Sarmat149
      Sarmat149 7 October 2016 11: 22
      0
      This sword is called FALCATA - one of the forms of swords of antiquity. It was widespread in the Greek world (Hellenes), and in the Iberian world (the ancient population of modern Spain), it was also used by the Carthaginian mercenaries.
  3. Riv
    Riv April 6 2016 08: 08
    +3
    You can still use an ax in the phalanx. How? Very simple: throw. The front row does not have to hold a spear all the time. If the phalanx is Greek, then the spear of the first row is short and can be temporarily intercepted with the left hand, behind the shield. And if long sarisses are used, then they and the back rows will hold. In general, the right hand can be freed, and in the absence of space, an ax is an ideal throwing weapon.

    Note the reconstruction of the warrior from the Altez Museum. Although there is clearly not a phalangist, but ... as many as TWO axes on the left side and both "throwing" designs, with a weak attachment of the blade to the handle. This is so that the enemy, having taken a blow on the shield, does not pull out the pierced ax and send it back.
    1. baudolino
      baudolino April 6 2016 09: 45
      +2
      It is unlikely that the phalanx was preserved until the end of the battle. When the general mess started, the axes and swords went into motion.
    2. brn521
      brn521 April 6 2016 10: 13
      +2
      Quote: Riv
      You can still use an ax in the phalanx. How? Very simple: throw.

      Darts have a much better situation with penetration and stability in flight. So it remains to be assumed that in the bulk the axes were used as a universal tool, since there was no excess metal then.
      1. Riv
        Riv April 6 2016 13: 15
        -2
        You write nonsense.
  4. parusnik
    parusnik April 6 2016 08: 10
    +2
    Thank you, Vyacheslav, pleased once again ..
    1. venaya
      venaya April 6 2016 08: 33
      -10%
      Quote: parusnik
      Thank you, Vyacheslav, pleased once again ..

      I’m sorry, I didn’t understand what exactly Shpakovsky pleased?
      Maybe another Russophobic-Nazi trick in the style of upbringing "Hitler Jugend" after reading the Fuehrer's book "My Struggle"? I didn’t understand what to rejoice about - there’s grief, over and over again articles are published belittling the honor and dignity of the indigenous nationality of both the site and the population of that appendix of the world's largest continent under the foreign name “Europe”.
      1. Glot
        Glot April 6 2016 08: 58
        +3
        I did not understand what was there to rejoice - there was grief ..........


        Woe, this is when people like you write nonsense over and over again, they believe in this nonsense and live this nonsense. This is grief. Personally yours, and you like ignoramuses.
        Would you stop clowning already, an etruscologist-etymologist homegrown. This is not even funny anymore. It is sad.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. Riv
        Riv April 6 2016 11: 54
        +1
        Is Europe the largest continent on the planet? Evgeny Vaganovich, log in.
      4. kalibr
        April 6 2016 12: 37
        0
        And where is it written Russophobically that Russians and lying under the spreading cranberries lap vodka right from under the samovar. Although some, yes ... quite
        1. ICT
          ICT April 6 2016 18: 59
          +1
          Quote: kalibr
          lying under the spreading cranberries

          specially near the bathhouse I grew a tree,

          Quote: kalibr
          lap vodka right from under the samovar.

          moonshine from a teapot, .... honestly, honestly and not shy wink
          1. ICT
            ICT April 6 2016 19: 25
            0
            Quote: TIT
            Quote: kalibr
            lying under the spreading cranberries
            specially near the bathhouse I grew a tree,


            ps Of course, I raised Kalina, but she’s in a swamp
  5. Denimax
    Denimax April 6 2016 09: 08
    +1
    Quote: Riv
    ... as many as TWO axes on the left side and both of the "throwing" design, with a weak attachment of the blade to the handle.

    There were articles where similar riveting was on swords. Swords are also throwing or was this design in fashion?
    Quote: Riv
    This is so that the enemy, taking a blow to the shield, does not pull out the thrusting ax and does not send it back.

    An ax, as an unstable weapon, can "stick" in the wrong place. Although it can be used to scoff ... threw it while the enemy is covering or dodging, and then seize the moment, attack with a quick attack. It can give a certain advantage.
    1. brn521
      brn521 April 6 2016 11: 47
      +1
      I think the history of the New World can serve as the most characteristic source of information on a clumsy issue. Belt and trade axes, all kinds of tomahawks. They were worn by all, the military (instead of bladed weapons), settlers, local tribes. And why not use it, including as a melee weapon. Yes, they could have been thrown, but it was more a sport than a full-fledged combat use. This is almost the same as throwing daggers, for example.
      Francis are also recalled. We put on a long handle, we get a tool and melee weapons. We put on a short - throwing weapon.
      It also seems that a tradition that has survived from the Stone Age with its batons and stone hatchets could play a significant role. Illustration - the same Indians.
    2. Riv
      Riv April 6 2016 12: 16
      +1
      There is a nuance: "The wrong end" the ax cannot hit. Ask: "How so? And if the blunt side arrives?" - it doesn't matter how it arrives. After the throw, the handle revolves around a heavy butt, to which the center of gravity is shifted. Even if the ax hits with a butt, the blow is crushing - that's all. For the sake of experiment, try spinning a half-kilo weight on a short strap and hitting your forehead. :) Liked? This is how the ax hits. Well, if with a blade, it's very good.

      Much has been written about the fact that under Hastings the Scots fought with stone axes. Against iron armor, hand-to-hand combat, such a weapon is certainly useless and the Scots should not be considered idiots. But what if there is no bow (or you don’t know how to shoot from it), but why do you want to get the enemy standing in a dozen steps? Elementary Watson! We find a cobblestone of elongated shape, we cut it in haste, we fasten the handle with a belt. And in battle, as in the good old days, we throw the resulting shell into the Norman system. What can cut a stone ax? Answer: chopping is not necessary, just hit the head.

      In contrast to the spear (well, there are doubters), an abandoned ax is much less prone to ricochet. Again, for the sake of experiment: try in practice with an ordinary carpentry hatchet and some kind of stick to break through a wooden fence in the country. I will not say in advance how it will end. Just give it a try.
  6. Stilet
    Stilet April 6 2016 22: 35
    +1
    Quote: Riv
    There is a nuance: "The wrong end" the ax cannot hit. Ask: "How so? And if the blunt side arrives?" - it doesn't matter how it arrives. After the throw, the handle revolves around a heavy butt, to which the center of gravity is shifted. Even if the ax hits with a butt, the blow is crushing - that's all. For the sake of experiment, try spinning a half-kilo weight on a short strap and hitting your forehead. :) Liked? This is how the ax hits. Well, if with a blade, it's very good.

    Much has been written about the fact that under Hastings the Scots fought with stone axes. Against iron armor, hand-to-hand combat, such a weapon is certainly useless and the Scots should not be considered idiots. But what if there is no bow (or you don’t know how to shoot from it), but why do you want to get the enemy standing in a dozen steps? Elementary Watson! We find a cobblestone of elongated shape, we cut it in haste, we fasten the handle with a belt. And in battle, as in the good old days, we throw the resulting shell into the Norman system. What can cut a stone ax? Answer: chopping is not necessary, just hit the head.

    In contrast to the spear (well, there are doubters), an abandoned ax is much less prone to ricochet. Again, for the sake of experiment: try in practice with an ordinary carpentry hatchet and some kind of stick to break through a wooden fence in the country. I will not say in advance how it will end. Just give it a try.


    I suggest you try throwing pilum (about 5 kg in weight) into the shield of any era. Just make a throw. And about the rebound, you are also wrong - it rebounds and how. For the rest, I agree with you. As an assumption on the use of an ax as a throwing weapon, it is an alternative to a bow, because archers from the Italians have always been none, as well as riders.
    1. Riv
      Riv April 7 2016 08: 14
      0
      Okay, an example closer to our time. Two bullets, calibers: 7.62 and 5.45. The tendency of the second to ricochet is well known. And why? Because the speed is greater, and the bullet itself is thinner. Therefore, hitting the shoulder 5.45 bullet may well get out of the ass. It is enough for her to meet any bone on the way - and went for a walk. At 7.62, the mass is doubled, the speed is lower, and for her this behavior is not characteristic. Why did old AKs in Afghanistan prefer? Caliber. A heavy bullet works better on shelters. And so 5.45 has better ballistics.

      So: 7.62 is an ax, and 5.45 is a dart. At the spear, the center of gravity in the middle, at the ax - is shifted to the blade. The spear has an axial at least a small angle with the path, but there is always. When it hits the target, this angle increases and, if it is large enough, the shaft dodges and hits the target flat. It may just break if the tip is stuck. And in order for the ax to ricochet, it must hit the target at an angle quite different from the normal. That is, the spear must not only be thrown with force, but also correctly, and for the ax, only one force is enough.

      The Roman pilum with a long, heavy tip and a specially shortened shaft was devoid of both of these shortcomings. But this is a purely throwing weapon. In melee, they can only be used as a dagger. And what is easier to forge: a pilum, or an ax?

      Now the second nuance from a high school physics course. The dart throws itself (surprise!) With a jerk. At the ax, a spin is also added to the push, and its energy is comparable to the kinetic energy of the throw. The difference is obvious. Try to throw a knife without promotion - will it stick deeply? If the ax hits the target with a butt, then it does not really matter. The momentum will be tangential to the surface. But if with a blade, then it will inflict a chopping blow. Estimated: + 25% chance of crit.

      PS: Pilum weighing 5 kilograms? Look for one more ... :)
  7. brn521
    brn521 April 7 2016 12: 47
    +1
    Quote: Riv
    The ax cannot hit by the "wrong end".

    The wrong end can hit any weapon that has a hilt. Therefore, throwing axes, like throwing knives, is a sport or a tribute to traditions.
    Quote: Riv
    Even if the ax hits the butt, then the blow is crushing

    Tear metal for a crushing blow? This is at least irrational.
    Quote: Riv
    For the sake of experiment, try to unwind a weight on a short strap in a pound and hit yourself on the forehead. :) Liked?

    A pound of metal can be used to make several tips for spears or darts. Including those that pierce the frontal bone without much effort.
    Quote: Riv
    We find a cobblestone of elongated shape, we cut it in haste, we fasten the handle with a belt. And in battle, as in the good old days, we throw the resulting shell into the Norman system.

    The baton is a weapon of rogue against the same rogue. It’s better then to sling.
    Quote: Riv
    In contrast to the spear (well, there are doubters), an abandoned ax is much less prone to ricochet.

    In general, an incomprehensible twist.
    We put a flat wooden die 10 meters away. First we try to get into it with sports weapons. Yes, exactly, this is the most optimistic status that a weapon with a handle can rotate when thrown. We find that the carpenter’s ax generally ceased to penetrate the tree, only bounces into the empty one, no matter how hard you train. The tip, which is formed by the angle of its blade, is very far in condition from the spear point, wide and has a low penetrating ability. With a throwing knife it will be better, since a full narrow point is already available, and not its ersatz, like an ax. Having trained, it will be possible to ensure that when hit, the blade is correctly oriented relative to the surface at this distance. Further. We attach a stabilizer and / or shaft to the throwing knife. And we find that the narrow edge of the knife enters the tree under the widest range of angles, which is not even close to the ax.
    I am writing, since in childhood this business was one of the most common entertainments. At home, by the way, one of the walls is still pitted with screwdrivers, knives, scissors and even a metal comb. But that is exactly what sport is. For 100% of the result, we used feathered darts weighted with lead.
    1. Riv
      Riv April 7 2016 13: 16
      -1
      You write nonsense again.
  8. brn521
    brn521 April 7 2016 12: 49
    +1
    Quote: Riv
    Okay, an example closer to our time. Two bullets, calibers: 7.62 and 5.45.

    For throwing weapons, the speed is several orders of magnitude lower, so the geometry of the blade comes to the fore. With which the ax is very bad.
    Quote: Riv
    Estimated: + 25% chance of crit.

    Tear metal for 25%? Spears and darts have 100% crit + many times penetrating power.
    Quote: Riv
    Try to throw a knife without promotion - will it stick deeply?

    The energy of rotation of the knife is small compared with the kinetic energy of its translational motion. As for the ax, there was a correct idea that the handle would increase its initial speed. But the rotation of the ax itself in flight does not play a role here. As for the darts, as an alternative, you can take a spear thrower. The same Native American atlatl, whose stone tip makes holes in tinplate, even in the hands of an inexperienced reenactor. And the conquistadors complained that he was breaking through their armor. You can do a lot of such darts from one ax.
    1. Riv
      Riv April 7 2016 13: 37
      +1
      Nonsense again. Well, do not disgrace already.

      You don't even think you are writing. "An order of magnitude" means "10 times". "Several orders of magnitude more", respectively: "more than 100 times." It's Russian, yeah. It's Complicated. Automatic bullet speed 700 m / s. The speed of the flying arrow is approximately 80 m / s. The speed of the thrown knife (or ax) is 20 m / s, which is 35 times less than that of a bullet. Not by several orders of magnitude.

      You use even the simplest terms at random. And all the rest of your reasoning is pure heresy. I would write my usual one: "Evgeny Vaganovich, re-login!" - but even for Petrosyan, your posts do not pull.
      1. brn521
        brn521 April 7 2016 14: 54
        0
        Quote: Riv
        "By the order" means "10 times"

        Found something to complain about. You prove it to programmers. And ordinary inhabitants.
        Quote: Riv
        Nonsense again. Well, do not disgrace already.

        Sorry, disgrace is arguing with you on this matter. Well, the question would concern abstract theoretical points regarding metallurgy, as last time, where the simplest and most well-known scheme, taken from open sources, sent you to flight. But here the question is obvious to everyone who was engaged in throwing various objects.
        1. Riv
          Riv April 7 2016 16: 34
          0
          Of course the obvious. Here are the plus points for me. :)))
  9. Termit1309
    Termit1309 April 7 2016 13: 45
    0
    But one thing is weapons as part of funerary equipment, and in the phalanx you definitely can’t use an ax.

    As I understand it, this is Peter Connolly’s statement. It is strange that everyone below unsubscribing took his word. And ignored the long bronze piece of iron. Actually use this chopping product in the phalanx, as inconvenient as an ax.
    1. Riv
      Riv April 7 2016 14: 19
      +1
      Bronze piece of iron? Cap is puzzled ...
  10. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh April 7 2016 15: 11
    +1
    So, the discussion was interesting ...

    The throwing ax is an exotic, rare weapon. Threw (even successfully) - and you are unarmed.
    Yes, and ordinary axes - chop, not often used. Very much
    it was necessary to be physically strong so that they wave and not run out of breath (the center of gravity is far away).
    With a sword - much less effort.
    And all kinds of spears, darts - were used in all armies en masse. They are lightweight, compact to carry.
    in decent amounts to one person. Can remotely injure / kill several
    man without substituting himself under the sword.
    1. Riv
      Riv April 7 2016 16: 33
      0
      What ??? And throw a pilum - the hand will not fall off? Four kilos, by the way. Meanwhile, an ordinary carpentry ax was one and a half kilograms from the force, and the battle ax weighed three times less. What should the hand fall off from?

      Now about the compactness of darts. Take a shield in one hand, a dart in the other ... Oops! There’s nowhere to shove the second one (to be silent, hussars!) You won’t shut up your belt. Abidna, huh?
  11. Bib_82
    Bib_82 April 9 2016 00: 03
    +3
    Bullshit wrote some sort of excerpts torn, errors. Read about burial rites in ancient Russia. And the city probably was not found near Chelyabinsk.
  12. Skifotavr
    Skifotavr 22 January 2018 20: 20
    0
    What are you saying! And how do you like such an Etruscan vessel? smile