Military Review

Self-propelled anti-aircraft gun 2cm FlaK 38 auf Pz.Kpfw.I Ausf.A / Flakpanzer I (Germany)

20
During the campaign to seize France, Nazi German forces gained extensive combat experience, which allowed them to draw some conclusions regarding the further development of weapons and military equipment. In particular, it was at this time that the idea of ​​building special self-propelled combat vehicles with anti-aircraft weapons, designed to combat aviation the enemy. The result of this idea was several new armored vehicles, the first of which was a 2cm FlaK 38 auf Pz.Kpfw.I Ausf.A or Flakpanzer I.


It should be noted that the first self-propelled self-propelled guns appeared in the Wehrmacht during the French campaign. However, then it was about improvised technique, assembled from existing products. The existing semi-tracked tractor mounted an existing anti-aircraft gun, which helped protect the troops from enemy raids. However, this handicraft solution had some drawbacks. The main one is the absence of the required protection of anti-aircraft gunners. In addition, the overall survivability and other characteristics of such self-propelled guns left much to be desired. Thus, the troops needed a new combat vehicle, originally developed to solve the tasks.

A preliminary study of the issue showed that the industry has the theoretical ability to install anti-aircraft guns on existing protected chassis. In this case, however, only the outdated light tank Pz.Kpfw.I of the very first Ausf.A modification could be used as the basis for such a machine. The characteristics of such a chassis allowed to be used as weapons Only small-caliber artillery systems, such as the 20-mm cannon FlaK 38. It was on the basis of these products, it was decided to build a new anti-aircraft self-propelled gun.


Flakpanzer I and his crew. Photo Pvo.guns.ru


At the end of 1940, the final technical task for the development of new armored vehicles was formed. Alkett and Daimler-Benz were to create a promising project. In addition, the project attracted the company Stöwer, which offered some units, and later, apparently, also completed the assembly of finished combat vehicles.

It was proposed that ready-made vehicles and existing weapons be used as the basis for the new ZSU. Thus, the project was quite simple in terms of development and production. In particular, it was proposed to refine only some of the details of the basic parts, and their alteration was determined only by the need to install a gun on tank chassis. No significant processing of the chassis or guns was required.

When rebuilding into self-propelled self-propelled guns, the base tank had to retain most of the hull. All necessary improvements concerned only the podbashennoy box. From it it was necessary to cut off the roof, and also to remove the aft wall. The front of the box was pushed forward 200 mm. At the same time, the boards were pivotally mounted: in the traveling position, they had to be positioned vertically, but if necessary, they could be folded sideways, which led to the appearance of a platform for placing the crew during combat work. The roof of the engine compartment was also modified, which made it possible to install part of the attachments of the gun mount on it. Protection characteristics of the case, of course, remained the same. The construction of armor steel sheets 5-13 mm thick could protect the crew and internal units from small arms bullets and artillery shell fragments.

The tank Pz.Kpfw.I had the layout traditional for the early German armored vehicles. In front of the case, there was a control compartment and some transmission units. In the center there was a fighting compartment, under the floor of which a cardan shaft passed. The hull feed was given under the engine compartment. Tanks of the early modification “A” were equipped with a four-cylinder carburetor boxed Krupp M305 engine with less than 60 horsepower. Directly with the engine was a gearbox, the task of which was to transfer torque to the drive shaft connected to the other transmission units.


Tank Pz.Kpfw.I Ausf.A. Wikimedia Commons Photos


The undercarriage of the tank had four support rollers on each side, besides, the aft steering wheel served as a support roller. The front pair of road wheels received a balancing suspension with springs and hydraulic shock absorbers. Other rollers, including the guide wheels, were interlocked and mounted on a spring suspension, which received a characteristic external beam. Driving wheels of relatively large diameter were placed in front of the case. To support the upper branch of the caterpillar there were three rollers.

In front of the case, the workplace of the driver was preserved. Other crew members were to be located on the upper platform or, during combat work, on the ground. It is noteworthy that the crew of the new self-propelled gun could consist of five or eight people. The reduced pay was required for firing at ground targets, and a crew of eight had to fully solve air defense tasks.

An anti-aircraft gun with an automatic Flak 38 gun was to be located on the upper platform of the hull, which was freed after the tower was dismantled and the tower box was completed. For greater ease of operation and possible use without a chassis, the gun has retained most of the gun carriages. The new project retained the possibility of relatively quick dismantling of the gun with installation on the ground or on a special towed trailer. In this case, the main method of using the gun was shooting directly from the tank chassis.

The FlaK 38 cannon had an 20-mm barrel with a 65 length of calibers and could be used to attack air or ground targets. The gun was supposed to use 20x138 mm B shells of several types. The relatively long barrel accelerated the shells to 900 m / s, and the used automation allowed shooting at a rate of up to 450 rounds per minute. The supply was carried out from box stores on 20 shells each.


Side projection self-propelled. Figure Pvo.guns.ru


In the draft of the new ZSU, the existing gun retained the existing gun carriage with manual guidance drives. Its design allowed firing in any direction in azimuth with an elevation from -11 ° to + 87 °. Depending on the type of projectile, effective fire was provided at a distance of up to 2,2 km. To protect the gunner, the gun had a shield of a characteristic curved shape, consisting of two main parts. In the interval between the halves of the shield there was a movable mask of the weapon. The right half of the shield had a small cutout in the upper part, intended for the use of the sight.

The gun mount was proposed to be mounted on a modified hull roof, in the place of a towed box and a tower. This arrangement of weapons allowed us to maintain an acceptable balance of the entire machine, as well as to ensure the free guidance of the gun in the entire accessible sector. The gun mounts, as already mentioned, made it possible to remove it from the chassis and mount it back by the calculation forces.

Tank Panzerkampfwagen I, which became the basis for the new self-propelled gun, did not differ in large size and large volume of the hull, which led to some interesting consequences. The main consequence of small volumes was the development of a special two-wheeled trailer Sonderanhänger 51 (Sd.Ah.51). Due to the small size of the self-propelled guns, it was possible to transport very limited ammunition, which was located in a small compartment behind the driver. It also provided a place for the transport of personal weapons calculation - Mauser 98k carbines. It was proposed to transport other projectiles, as well as personal belongings, in the trailer towed by the self-propelled gun. Due to the lack of space inside the building, the ZSU also lost the radio station, due to which the crew received a set of flags for transmitting signals to other vehicles.

The assembled self-propelled gun on the base of the tank and anti-aircraft gun was supposed to weigh about 5,5 t. Its length was 4,4 m, width 2,06 m, height - 2,08 m. Relatively weak engine allowed to reach a speed of no more 35-37 km / h and pass on one gas station to 180 km. Thus, a promising self-propelled gun with certain limitations could work in some combat formations with other armored vehicles of the German army.


ZSU at the front. Photo Worldwarphotos.info


All work on the new project, including the construction of combat vehicles, was completed in early summer 1941. First of all, this was facilitated by the use of ready-made machines and cannons, which were available to the troops in large quantities. In addition, the work in a sense, facilitated some features of the tanks, taken for rework. By the beginning of the forties, the Pz.Kpfw.I tanks were already considered obsolete and were hardly used in the original quality. So, a number of machines modification Ausf.A was converted into ammunition transporters. At the same time they were deprived of the original tower and received the means of storage and transportation of ammunition.

It was the ammunition conveyors that became the basis for the new ZSU. This technique was taken from the 1-th company of the 610-th transport battalion and sent for modernization. Due to the absence of the tower and other changes in the design, the reworking of the conveyors did not take much time. The result of this work was the emergence of 24 new anti-aircraft self-propelled units. Some sources also mention the construction of one or two prototypes, followed by the rest of a series of two dozen machines.

In accordance with the German nomenclature of technology, a new type of self-propelled self-propelled gun received the designation 2cm FlaK 38 auf Pz.Kpfw.I Ausf.A: 2-cm cannon FlaK 38 on the chassis Pz.Kpfw.I modification "A". In addition, at the same time, the new term Flakpanzer (“Anti-aircraft tank”) appeared. An alternative designation of the new machine was the Flakpanzer I.

According to reports, the attitude of the military to the “Flakpantser-1” from the very beginning was ambiguous. On the one hand, the appearance of such equipment made it possible to ensure the protection of columns on the march due to the serious advantages in mobility over the existing towed artillery. On the other hand, the basis of the new project was an outdated chassis with not very high performance. However, the German command simply had no choice. Alternative ZSU 2cm FlaK 38 auf Pz.Kpfw.I Ausf.A has not existed yet and has not anticipated.


614 Battalion in the occupied territories, winter 1942. Photo Pvo.guns.ru


To operate the new self-propelled guns, a new 614 anti-aircraft battalion was formed. His main weapon was a new type of car, and in supporting roles it was proposed to use a diverse fleet of cars of German, French and British production, previously captured as trophies. Thus, in terms of the material part, the 614 Battalion was a very interesting unit.

Training personnel for 2cm FlaK 38 auf Pz.Kpfw.I Ausf.A continued until the middle of summer 1941. In August, the 614 anti-aircraft battalion was sent by rail from Berlin to Prague. Then he was transported to Romania. Only in the fall the battalion managed to get a full-fledged combat mission. From Romania, self-propelled guns passed the order of 600 km and plunged into the occupied Soviet territory. The task of the battalion was the protection of bridges on the Dnieper.

Approximately in the winter, the 1941-42 of the year, the anti-aircraft battalion was still able to go to the front line. Over the next few months, anti-aircraft self-propelled guns were used to protect troops from air raids and, in some cases, to attack ground targets. The use of 20-mm cannons against tanks was not possible, but in some cases such weapons were an effective means to destroy long-term firing points. In addition, there was a high potential in attacking field artillery in positions.

However, the new ZSU had a lot of flaws. The main problems were morally and physically obsolete chassis. Panzerkampfwagen I tanks were made before 1937, and the assembly of the first Ausf.A modification was curtailed in the early autumn of 36. Thus, most of the chassis for the 2cm FlaK 38 auf Pz.Kpfw.I Ausf.A did not differ in novelty and large remnants of the resource. As a result, self-propelled guns were spent most of the time of their service not at the forefront, but in repair shops.


Self-propelled gun in the stowed position. The gun is covered with a cover. Photo Pvo.guns.ru


The service and its effectiveness also affected the obsolescence of the chassis. It had insufficient bookings and did not have high mobility. Because of this, self-propelled guns could be a relatively easy target for large-caliber machine guns or the Red Army anti-guns. The use of any artillery was completely fatal to German cars. Also, the inadequate protection of the calculation, part of which was covered by a shield, negatively affected the tenacity. Because of this, the risk of hitting the crew with small arms or shell fragments significantly increased.

The consequence of insufficient performance and low survivability was the loss of most of the self-propelled guns built. By the end of 1942, a significant amount of ZSU 2cm FlaK 38 auf Pz.Kpfw.I Ausf.A was written off after a resource was developed or destroyed by the enemy. The last few cars of this type continued service until the beginning of the 43. At this time, the 614-th anti-aircraft battalion was located in the area of ​​Stalingrad and along with a host of other units was surrounded.

Part of the personnel and material part of the battalion was destroyed during the fighting, and some fighters managed to stay alive and captured. The remaining equipment, in turn, became trophies of the Red Army. It is known that among other equipment in the Stalingrad boiler were found several self-propelled guns "Flakpanzer-1". Soviet experts studied this technique and criticized it. All the features of the project that was once considered promising were fully criticized. After studying trophy "anti-aircraft tanks" as unnecessary sent to the smelter.

No later than the first months of 1943, the latest 2cm FlaK 38 auf Pz.Kpfw.I Ausf.A self-propelled guns ceased to exist. Thus, to this day not a single sample of this technique has been preserved. Total 24 armored vehicles, combined in one battalion, could not have a significant impact on the course of the fighting. Nevertheless, they allowed to check in practice an interesting and promising idea, assessing the real possibilities of such equipment. According to the results of the Flakpanzer I project, it was decided to continue the development and construction of self-propelled anti-aircraft installations. However, the next such project appeared only a few years later.


On the materials of the sites:
http://aviarmor.net/
http://tanks-encyclopedia.com/
http://pvo.guns.ru/
http://nemectanki.ru/
http://armor.kiev.ua/
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  1. Bongo
    Bongo 29 March 2016 06: 25
    +10
    The use of 20-mm guns against tanks was not possible ... In addition, there was a high potential for attack field artillery in positions.

    The author did not confuse anything? 20-mm self-propelled anti-aircraft guns could quite effectively fight with Soviet light tanks, but against the artillery, on the contrary, there were no chances. Further in the text follows:
    Application of any artillery and it was fatal for German cars. Also, insufficient protection of the calculation negatively affected survivability, only part of which was covered by a shield. Because of this, the risk of hitting a crew with small arms or shell fragments increased significantly.

    Maybe I didn’t understand what in the article? what
  2. max73
    max73 29 March 2016 06: 57
    +1
    The use of self-propelled small-caliber anti-aircraft guns by the Germans against the advancing Soviet infantry was described in detail by "Vanka-rotny" Shumilin. Tin.
    1. Stas57
      Stas57 29 March 2016 11: 02
      0
      I also remembered.
      Tin-plate

      The Germans on crawler tractors dragged anti-aircraft guns into the village.
      - One, two, four! - I think. Here are four and four more crawling out from the edge of the peak. A movement appeared in the chain of our soldiers. The soldiers, looking up, looked at the anti-aircraft guns.
      The first tractors were already crawling into the village, and on the road, engines were still grumbling on bumps and letting out black puffs of smoke behind them.
      The first battery crept between the houses. The tractors were unhooked, the guns deployed, and everyone froze in place. The rest roared angrily with motors and, without rushing, flowed through the village.
      - Call the battalion! I shouted to the telephone operator.
      The telephone operator, his eyes wide, frantically twirled his pen, he began to knock on the valve of the handset, but the telephone did not answer.
      - Not a single shot from the German side! Who could interrupt the wire?
      - Cool, without stopping! I ordered him.
      There, on the other end of the wire, someone stubbornly was silent. No one wanted to take responsibility and order the companies to withdraw.
      The Germans were in no hurry. They did everything according to science. Anti-aircraft batteries led to battle. They wanted to immediately and certainly hit our infantry lying in the snow. Moreover, we lay and did not move.
      There was no signal to attack. There was no order to withdraw. The Germans, apparently, were surprised at our perseverance and stupidity. They lie like they are and wait until they are shot point blank! Finally, their 120 burst patience.
      An anti-aircraft gun is not a field weapon that needs to be charged again after each shot. The anti-aircraft gun automatically throws an entire cartridge of shells. She can shoot single, double and short bursts. From the barrel of the anti-aircraft gun from one pedal press immediately one red-hot tracer, and the other a high-explosive projectile, fly out. For every living soldier who fell into the optical sight, the Germans began to let them in two at once, for fidelity. One tracer, red-hot, and the other invisible, high explosive. At first they began to hit the running ones. The runner took two or three steps, and he was torn apart by a charge into pieces.
      First, the telephone operators ran, under the guise of fixing a wire break. Then alarmists and weak-witted arrows could not stand it. Above the snow flew from them bloody shreds and scraps of overcoats, pieces of scarlet meat, severed hands, bare jaws and clots of intestines. Those who could not stand it, who fell off their feet, the shell caught up with in the third step. A man was caught in an optical sight, and right there, after a second, he disappeared from the face of the earth. Platoon Chernyaeva once ran under fire. They knew what it turned out to be. My soldiers lay looking at me, at the German anti-aircraft guns and the torn corpses of those fleeing.
      The orderly crawled a little to the side, he wanted to see what was happening there on the edge of the bushes. But curiosity ruined him. Then he suddenly became alarmed, rolled over in place and in two jumps was near me. And before he could touch the ground, he was struck in the back with two shells. He was torn in half. Intestines splashed into my face.
      1. Stas57
        Stas57 29 March 2016 11: 03
        +1
        Why did he get up and rush to me?
        - Comrade Lieutenant! There ... - he managed to cry out before death.
        The snow was turning red around me. His life was cut short instantly.
        Wounded soldiers appeared. They crawled, leaving a bloody trail in the snow. They were clearly visible in the optical sight. Another double shot finished them off on the way.
        The telephone operator lying nearby was staring at me. I told him to lie, but he did not listen to me. I lay under a tree and looked around, which was happening around. I lay and did not move.
        The telephone operator was killed while trying to get to his feet. The shell hit him in the head and broke the skull in two, threw up his iron helmet, and the headless body hit the snow deafly. A sleeve with a bare brush flew from somewhere above. [She, like] Mittens, like in children, dangled on a cord. Fingers moved. The severed arm was still alive.
        Everyone who tried to escape or rush in a panic fell into the optical sight. I looked at anti-aircraft guns, at soldiers falling in agony, at machine gunners who buried themselves in the snow behind their Maxims. The machine gunners lay and did not move.
        For a moment, the shooting stopped. Now no one was running across the open snowy field. The Germans rummaged through the field with their eyepieces, trying to snatch another victim from the background of snowdrifts.
        And then a new blow broke the trunk and shield of the machine gun, wrapped in gauze and a piece of sheet. Clinging to the snow, the machine gunners' bodies rose and leaned back to the side.
        A platoon of junior lieutenant Chernyaev lay in the bushes to my left. Suddenly the soldiers stirred, and I saw Germans in front of them with machine guns in their hands. They quietly went down the cliff and walked through the bushes to where the soldiers of Chernyaev lay. That's what the orderly wanted to tell me.
        Jumping out of the bushes into an open field was unthinkable. Through the bushes, the Germans fired from anti-aircraft guns. But their fire was not aimed, and most of the soldiers were still alive. But then a hail of shells slipped through the snow itself. In the bushes near Chernyaev appeared killed and wounded. I saw how several surviving soldiers rose to their feet and raised their hands up.
        Of the weapons I had with me only one pistol. The machine gun of an orderly was thrown off somewhere. Shooting a pistol at the Germans was useless.
        I took out a gun, I even wanted to aim, but thought it over and put it in my bosom. The Germans walked along the bushes in my direction.
        They walked slowly and often stopped. They put on boots lying, bent down and examined the dead soldiers. Then they walked again and again stopped, gathered in a heap around lying in the snow. They surrounded him from all sides, began to fumble and lifted the wounded to his feet.
        I needed to do something urgently. It was impossible to procrastinate. With every step the Germans came closer to me. And I, not letting out the alignment of a branchy tree covered with fluffy white coating of hoarfrost, began to back off along the snowy field. I crawled, not stopping, not taking a break, looking at the tree trunk and anti-aircraft guns, covered with white branches. And at the same time, I did not take my eyes off the Germans who were walking through the bushes.
        If the Germans would tear their eyes away from the wounded and killed soldiers lying on the snow, they would immediately notice me. But the Germans were busy with their bloody business. They looked at their feet, moved from place to place, removed something from the soldiers' pockets, finished off the wounded and photographed the bodies of the dead. The Germans' eyes were fixed on the bloody path, and this allowed me to crawl away from them a decent distance. But at the first moment they were about twenty steps away from me.
        I crawled in deep snow, not like a soldier, in a plastubsky way, with my head forward, but backed away like a cancer, intensively working with my arms and legs and all the while looking at the tree, and trying not to leave its alignment to the side.
        I was exhausted. It was hard to breathe. I wiped my eyes on my sleeve and then sweated again.
        “You can't crawl like that,” I thought.
        1. Stas57
          Stas57 29 March 2016 11: 04
          +1
          From the bushes to the forest was three kilometers 16. Snow field rises all the time up the hill. I knew for sure that crawling backwards in the snow in such an absurd and unnatural way, I would not leave the site of a fluffy tree.
          If the Germans walking along the bushes stop and look steadily in my direction, I can hide in the snow. I see a tree, an anti-aircraft gun and the whole group of Germans.
          Here, parallel to my direction, about twenty meters away, there is a bloody trail in the snow. Crushed snow with bloody stripes.
          The crumpled furrow is clean in places, and in places with large bloody smudges. Someone crawled here before me. Here the wounded man rested, a pool of blood [gathered] beneath him, here he crawled with effort - blurred streaks of blood.
          But here he himself lies at the end of the furrow. I crawl to the lying one, he is in a bloody camouflage suit. I peer into a pale, earthy-colored face and involuntarily startle. This is the commander of the 4 company Tatarinov.
          He sat back. His mouth is open. His eyes fixed on the sky. You will not see native Siberia in the sky. The hood of the camouflage uniform was thrown back. He was lying without a hat, and his hair moved a little in the wind. And it deceived me at the first moment. It even seemed to me that he was still alive, just lying, resting and amassing strength. I turned in his direction and wanted to crawl towards him. But, looking in the face, I saw. When I exhaled, white vapor escaped from my mouth. And he lay with his mouth open without any trickle of exhalation in the cold. And he had to breathe often and hard.
          Something flickered to one side in the eyes. I turned around. I look, - twenty people suddenly jumped out of the right flank from the snow, jumped out and scattered rushed to run in different directions. And at the same moment they were hit by all anti-aircraft guns. What made them jump and run through the deep snow into an open field? The Germans with machine guns on that side were not visible. These fluttered like a flock of sparrows and fell into the snow. From them flew only shreds of overcoats.
          Here, more and more small groups of the neighboring battalion, yielding to a rush, scattered to pieces. Not a single one left the open field.
          Death grabbed them at once with a death grip. Some disappeared immediately, scattered into pieces, others remained lying motionless. They took their last breaths and faded away, losing consciousness. The nightmarish massacre was in full swing. It is not for one hundred soldiers that time has forever stopped. There was an ominous silence.
          I lay in the snow, breathing heavily, knowing that I still needed to crawl. But in front of me the figure of a soldier suddenly rising to its full height walking in deep snow. The elderly soldier was without a camouflage uniform, without a rifle, in a gray overcoat. He slowly, without hurrying, as if showing that he was bewitched by anti-aircraft guns, walked, waving his arms, and shaking his fist in the air. He stopped, shouting curses. His face was frenzied and indignant at all that he had to endure and see in the white snow.
          He stopped every now and then, knelt down, raised his hands to the sky and groaned frantically.
          The Germans probably watched him. They had an unusual performance. They saw before them a man who despised anti-aircraft shells and death. They did not shoot him.
          Around, all living things have long been dead. Everything that moved and moved was instantly shot. And this one was walking, and only he alone, amusing them, was moving at full height along the snowy field. The Germans, apparently, wanted to leave him as a witness, so that he would tell ours in the rear.
  3. Volga Cossack
    Volga Cossack 29 March 2016 07: 34
    +3
    Quote: max73
    The use of self-propelled small-caliber anti-aircraft guns by the Germans against the advancing Soviet infantry was described in detail by "Vanka-rotny" Shumilin. Tin.
    against the German infantry and we used - the t-60 armed with 20mm - and very effective .... tin is true. but in general, the German idea is not bad, as an option to use a deliberately outdated tank ..... Thanks for the article.
    1. gla172
      gla172 29 March 2016 08: 27
      -1
      A typical illustration of the use of an anti-aircraft tank to combat ground targets is the report of the battle near Kharkov on May 17, 1942 of non-commissioned officer Knappe from the 1st company of the 614th anti-aircraft battalion: “Exactly at 4.45 a flurry of fire fell, and five minutes later we heard a noise aircraft engines. We have not experienced this yet: 200 German bombers attacked enemy positions. At the same time, our own assault groups suffered losses, as they were at their original positions only 200 meters from the enemy. In addition, the wind carried thick smoke from the explosions in our direction. Immediately enemy artillery opened defensive fire and forced us to seek all possible shelters in order to avoid fragments. Then the infantry went on the attack, for us it meant “anti-aircraft guns for battle!”

      At the edge of the village, the offensive stopped, the first anti-aircraft tank went out of order, non-commissioned officer Meller and Corporal Zvere were killed, the rest of the crew were injured. Lieutenant Busse led the second tank forward and was also immediately injured, the crew was forced to leave the tank. Russian snipers had dominance on the battlefield and forced our infantry to retreat to cover. Is it possible that the offensive, which has begun so successfully, will be drowned? My anti-aircraft tank got caterpillar damage. Fortunately, we were in the dead zone and began feverishly recovering them. It all depended on my crew ... We carefully moved forward. Before us was a long-term firing point, covered by snipers that shot through the whole terrain. From a distance of 300 meters, in a matter of seconds, we struck with fire all the visible loopholes. The enemy no longer had a chance and soon all the survivors came out with their hands up. Almost 100 enemy soldiers were captured by our infantry. The offensive continued, after several bursts we disabled the mortar battery. Three killed and 12 wounded out of 34 people cost us this offensive. ”
      1. Yak-3P
        Yak-3P 29 March 2016 21: 32
        -4
        drives your hitler
  4. igordok
    igordok 29 March 2016 07: 48
    0
    What kind of troops belonged to the German ZSU in WWII? Tankers, gunners or aircraft (Luftwaffe air defense)?
    It seems to be to artillery.
    1. Pinkie F.
      Pinkie F. 29 March 2016 09: 12
      0
      Quote: igordok
      What kind of troops belonged to the German ZSU in WWII? Tankers, gunners or aircraft (Luftwaffe air defense)?
      It seems to be to artillery.

      to the luftwaffe, no?
      1. igordok
        igordok 29 March 2016 09: 33
        0
        На https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%B8_%D0%B7



        %D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B8_%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%B2



        % D0% BE% D0% B9% D1% 81% D0% BA_% D0% A1% D0% A1 it is believed that - Artillery, including assault and self-propelled anti-aircraft.

        From the very beginning of the deployment of the air defense system, the vast majority of anti-aircraft artillery fire weapons were under the control of the Luftwaffe. Organizationally, they were subordinate to aviation districts.
        The anti-aircraft units attached to the ground forces maintained dual submission. For example, the 1th anti-aircraft artillery corps was administratively subordinate to the command of the 3th air fleet, and in the operational - to the ground forces. This state of affairs could become a source of potential conflict between the ground and air commands.

        the vast majority of anti-aircraft artillery weapons were managed by the luftwaffe - But not all. So I wanted to know by what principle the anti-aircraft gunners were divided. ZSU most likely considered the army, but the towed anti-aircraft guns for the Luftwaffe.
        1. hardroc
          hardroc 29 March 2016 10: 05
          +4
          Quote: igordok
          but towed anti-aircraft guns for the Luftwaffe.

          Everything, as in the Red Army. If the anti-aircraft guns defended the airfield, then it was the Luftwaffe zenta.
          But there were differences. Anti-aircraft guns defending the city were also run by the Luftwaffe.
          If it was the anti-aircraft guns of the Wehrmacht, then they repaired the Wehrmacht. The division in the state relied 12 light anti-aircraft guns. 88-mm guns relied already on the Wehrmacht corps link.
    2. alpamys
      alpamys 29 March 2016 11: 28
      -1
      Quote: igordok
      What kind of troops belonged to the German ZSU in WWII? Tankers, gunners or aircraft (Luftwaffe air defense)?
      It seems to be to artillery.

      the decal on their helmet was backlash, not the Wehrmacht.

      1. igordok
        igordok 29 March 2016 16: 10
        +1
        Not all anti-aircraft gunners belonged to the Luftwaffe.
        in the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe, the chest badges of anti-aircraft gunners were different.

        1. Stas57
          Stas57 29 March 2016 17: 53
          -3
          Quote: igordok
          in the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe, the chest badges of anti-aircraft gunners were different.


          the decal on their helmet was backlash, not the Wehrmacht.



          tin of course, did you both understand what you’re talking about?
          ))
    3. Stas57
      Stas57 29 March 2016 14: 12
      0
      Quote: igordok
      What kind of troops belonged to the German ZSU in WWII? Tankers, gunners or aircraft (Luftwaffe air defense)?
      It seems to be to artillery.
      to art
    4. Yak-3P
      Yak-3P 29 March 2016 21: 33
      -3
      Luftwaffles they ... Goering kids
  5. gla172
    gla172 29 March 2016 08: 21
    +4
    Created for the Panzer I Ausf.A chassis was in many ways unsuccessful, which led to difficulties for future crews: the base car, originally designed for a crew of two with full armor protection, should now have a crew of 5 (for operations on ground targets ) up to 8 people (for anti-aircraft shooting), and this significantly increased the load on the chassis. The rear steering wheel (sloth) was at ground level, so during fast turns the tank dropped its tracks, which when using anti-aircraft guns for firing at ground targets could have fatal consequences. Also, the tank had a rather unreliable transmission and a weak engine of 57 hp, which caused trouble for a long time, quickly heated up: and you could even burn your fingers on the mufflers.
  6. The comment was deleted.
  7. hardroc
    hardroc 29 March 2016 09: 56
    0
    That is what the Red Army needed before the war. With a pair of DShK or 37 mm anti-aircraft guns (unfortunately there was no other, although it would be better to have a smaller caliber anti-aircraft gun), converted to water cooling (not 61-K).
    But this was not, there were stupid BA with 45-mm guns. If someone does not know, then this is the Soviet BA-10 without a tower and converted to an anti-aircraft.
    1. hardroc
      hardroc 29 March 2016 09: 57
      -1
      Here is another interesting sample. I note on board two different types of weapons.
      1. Pinkie F.
        Pinkie F. 29 March 2016 11: 43
        -1
        The 38th bottles were put on everything that is possible, including Pz 38, Sd.Kfz.11, 251,234,222, "blitz" bodies and RSO schleppers (about which there was an article the other day). The subject concerns precisely the bundle "2 cm Flak 38 - Pz.Kpfw.I"
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Stas57
      Stas57 29 March 2016 11: 22
      +1
      But this was not, there were stupid BA with 45-mm guns

      ba with xnumx wasn't stupid
      1. hardroc
        hardroc 29 March 2016 11: 43
        -1
        Quote: Stas57
        ba with xnumx wasn't stupid

        Well, tell us a story about what "outstanding role in the Second World War" was played by 2887 BA-11, BA-10, BA-6 and BA-3 of the 1st and 2nd categories (new and fully operational), which were in the composition of the Red Army on 01.06.41. These are all BAs armed with a 45 mm 20-K tank gun. And also 206 of the same BA armed with a 37-mm cannon (BAI, D-13, BA-27, BA-9). And that's not all, there were a lot of smaller BAs. The Germans had only slightly more cannon tanks.
        Well, but seriously, then ALL Soviet cannon BAs were NOT all-wheel drive. Therefore, they could confidently move only on the roads. What and from whom could they defend there? Only transportation from air attacks. Therefore, they had to be anti-aircraft.
        As for the "dash to the west", and for this they were built, we saw this dash. At the heart of the Soviet cannon BA was a completely false message, a false idea.
        1. Yak-3P
          Yak-3P 29 March 2016 21: 37
          -2
          and then protect the forest ??
          1. hardroc
            hardroc 29 March 2016 21: 51
            -1
            Quote: Yak-3P
            and then protect the forest?

            Again, the hamlo crawled out of the sexual gap.
      2. The comment was deleted.
  8. 8140
    8140 29 March 2016 15: 08
    +1
    In principle, to this day we constantly see alterations, crafts, where large-caliber machine guns and anti-aircraft guns are installed on various types of chassis. These "mobiles" are used not only and somewhat for air targets, but in most cases for ground targets. The disadvantages of these alterations are obvious, not the ability to conduct aimed fire, due to the lack of stabilization when firing. The advantages are also obvious, a long-range automatic sniper system for ground targets (embankments, shelters, pillboxes, buildings, infantry and vehicles for various purposes).
    The conclusion is obvious: it is necessary to create an affordable self-propelled gun for motorized rifle squads. Not a shell, not Tunguska and not an awl does not fit this concept and purpose. And to grieve on the Zu-23 trailer and put it on the BMP (reduced efficiently), but this is already the "last century". And we need an effective, modern system.
  9. Bredovich705
    Bredovich705 29 March 2016 15: 50
    0
    An article about the next exclusive from the Wehrmacht +! And the exercises in history are a little out of place! Although I read komenty with no less interest!
  10. DesToeR
    DesToeR 29 March 2016 17: 00
    +3
    Quote: hardroc
    At the heart of the Soviet cannon BA was a completely false message, a false idea.

    The one who does nothing is not mistaken. The essence of Soviet BA was precisely in the protection of communications, headquarters, communications, intelligence. By the way, armored cars in the USSR were not abandoned until the end of the war. The BA-64s were produced and operated throughout the war, although it was necessary to abandon the gun in armament.
    Quote: hardroc
    Therefore, they could confidently move only on the roads.

    Can you name at least one modern four-wheel drive armored vehicle that can "confidently" move off-road?
    Quote: hardroc
    What and from whom could they defend there?

    And what are few threats on the road except aviation? The actions of the DRG, for example, clipped.
    1. hardroc
      hardroc 29 March 2016 18: 10
      -3
      Quote: DesToeR
      It's not a mistake that he does not do anything.

      He who makes thousands of dubious structures, is also mistaken.
      Quote: DesToeR
      The essence of Soviet BA was precisely in the protection of communications, headquarters, communications, intelligence

      How could they "screw up communications and headquarters"? What kind of reconnaissance is it without all-wheel drive, armor, but with a 45-mm cannon? And I'm not talking about communication by means of such heavy machines at all. Don't be creative.
      Quote: DesToeR
      BA-64 produced and operated throughout the war

      Do not confuse the BA-64 with this. Analogs of BA-64 before the Second World War in the Red Army were also, and were in large numbers.
      Quote: DesToeR
      Can you name at least one modern four-wheel drive armored vehicle that can "confidently" move off-road?

      What for? Want to challenge the need for all-wheel drive technology? In vain.
      Quote: DesToeR
      And what are few threats on the road except aviation? DRG actions

      This DRG, if it appears, is 1-2 times in the entire war. And enemy aircraft appeared on Soviet communications several times every day. Because there was no opposition to it. There was no normal air defense in the USSR, did not bother in time.
      In fact, the DShK on the anti-aircraft machine was the height of happiness. But where was he to get it? However, the DShK itself, it is an arr. 1930 And these highway pieces of iron went from the beginning of the 30s. Nevertheless, over 10 years no one had the mind to cross these products. Only the Germans (see picture above). On the contrary, before the war in the USSR, BA-10 added armor and named that man, BA-11.
      Complete neglect of air defense was very expensive and the Red Army, and the Red Army, and the civilian population of Soviet cities.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  11. Cap.Morgan
    Cap.Morgan 29 March 2016 17: 14
    -1
    Soviet experts of course criticized the technique. That's just nothing like that we had.
  12. DesToeR
    DesToeR 29 March 2016 20: 55
    +1
    Quote: hardroc
    How could they "screw up communications and headquarters"?

    Just like today they do it on similar armored vehicles armed with guns and machine guns. Nothing has changed in the last hundred years.
    Quote: hardroc
    What kind of intelligence without all-wheel drive, armor, but with a 45 mm gun?

    No worse than the Germans on motorcycles - i.e. without armor, without the notorious all-wheel drive, but with rifle-caliber machine guns instead of guns.
    Quote: hardroc
    Do not invent.

    What world do you live in? Books, the Internet, memoirs of veterans, a chronicle, composition, numbers and samples of weapons - is that all past you?
    Quote: hardroc
    Do not confuse the BA-64 with this.

    What are you confusing? BA-64 was not an armored car? According to your logic, ALL countries in the world could experiment, make mistakes, test and improve, BUT not the USSR? As always, you don't like to compare! Reality itself refutes your arguments about cannon. Do you know a machine like the Striker of the "light elves" and other "civilized worlds"? And the fact that it is also produced with a 105mm cannon? Dear question for you, why do the Americans REPEAT the flawed (in your opinion) concept of armored vehicles of the USSR of the 30s of the LAST century?
    Quote: hardroc
    And enemy aircraft appeared on Soviet communications several times every day. Because there was no opposition to it. There was no normal air defense in the USSR, did not bother in time.

    Maybe covering the columns on the march can be carried out not only by anti-aircraft guns and machine guns? Do you already consider fighter aircraft for air defense? And the fact that this same aircraft burned down in June 41st at airfields, and tanks with armored cars had to be abandoned without fuel. Radish horseradish is not sweeter. Yes, and do not remind how things were with the air defense of ideologically correct Western armies in 1940? Everything in the quick-firing guns they had there, but on mobile armored chassis?
    1. hardroc
      hardroc 29 March 2016 22: 26
      -1
      Just like today they do it on similar armored vehicles armed with guns and machine guns.

      And can you name such places? Well, to go, look at such an exotic, cannon is not all-wheel drive BA.
      No worse than the Germans on motorcycles

      And what is this "ideal standard", the Germans?
      is it all past you?

      This is a fantasy. Mostly yours.
      Was the BA-64 an armored car?

      Do you understand the classes of armored vehicles? Judging by the term "armored car", no. From this and such conclusions.
      ALL countries of the world could experiment, make mistakes, experience

      Well, indeed, he took and "experimentally" built thousands of such defective BAs. Like, I tried it. And then they wonder why the people in the USSR had nothing to eat.
      Question to you, dear, why do the Americans REPEAT the flawed (in your opinion) concept of armored cars of the USSR of the 30s of the PAST century?

      Why to me? I did not write anything about American BAs. That you have already sorted out all of us.
      Maybe covering the columns on the march can be carried out not only by anti-aircraft guns and machine guns? Do you already consider fighter aircraft for air defense?

      Dear you are my critic. Do not take the trouble to clarify the cost of the aircraft and BA with a pair of DShK in BO. And also the cost of 1 hour of operation of one and the other. As well as the probability of destruction of I-153 and all the same BA by an enemy fighter
      And the fact that this same aircraft burned down in June 41st at airfields

      Did you come up with this yourself? No, she burned out in the air. As a result of the actions of German aviation. And at the airfields an insignificant, but extremely important for Soviet propaganda, number of aircraft burned.
      and tanks with armored cars had to be abandoned without fuel.

      Those. is it force majeure circumstances? How is a meteorite? Or the result of the stupidity of the command of the Red Army? And where does the presence of cannon BA in the Red Army in general?
      Yes, and do not remind how things were with the air defense of ideologically correct Western armies in 1940? Everything in the quick-firing guns they had there, but on mobile armored chassis?

      I will not remind. You are our specialist in this area.
      What stupid habit of nodding at others, you will not tell me in the end? You watch yourself. If a neighbor's eye is knocked out, then it is advisable for you to knock out? Or is it better when with eyes?
      There was a suitable serial machine gun. There was a mass (actually huge) of suitable platforms in good condition. Why not do a practical thing and not use it? Why do we see such a bunch only in the photo with German crosses?
      Because incompetence. From top to bottom. And then "sudden insidious attacks", "no one expected," "burned down at the airfields." And the victims. Tens of millions. Apart from the victims, this is all lies. The Germans in 1941. were very weak. But the Red Army was generally below the plinth
  13. DesToeR
    DesToeR 30 March 2016 12: 15
    +1
    Quote: hardroc
    And what is this "ideal standard", the Germans?

    Well, bring your standard. COMPARISON finally at least once.
    Quote: hardroc
    Well, indeed, he took and "experimentally" built such flawed BA in thousands

    I never heard from you flawed in comparison with what? Give an example of a successful armored car, comparable to BA.
    Quote: hardroc
    Why to me?

    Yes, because it was you who again discovered America by calling really good cars with powerful weapons flawed. And the fact that they were used for other purposes, and tanks in the swamps were sinking - even the caterpillar track did not save ...
    Quote: hardroc
    Dear you are my critic.

    Well, why immediately "dear". I don’t take money from you)))
    Quote: hardroc
    Do not take the trouble to clarify the cost of the aircraft and BA with a pair of DShK in BO. And also the cost of 1 hour of operation of one and the other. As well as the probability of destruction of I-153 and all the same BA by an enemy fighter

    There is no such information and cannot be, because anti-aircraft armaments were not produced in the USSR. Everything else is a discussion of a spherical horse in a physical vacuum - as indeed most of your posts.
    Quote: hardroc
    I will not remind. You are our specialist in this area.

    Of course, do not remind, for the essence of your judgments is not the search for truth, but the denigration of the USSR, i.e. Of Russia. If you would like to find the reason for the appearance of BA in the Red Army, then this would not be difficult. The essence of their appearance is 1) the use of products (chassis) of the automotive industry in case of war; 2) long distances of transporting equipment not on railway roads; 3) a small resource of tracked tracks before the mass introduction of Hadfield steel into the production; 4) lower cost and greater motor life of BA in comparison with a tank with comparable armor and weapons. That's all - no miracles, conspiracies and passages ... s. Armored cars were in almost all countries of the world, moreover, at the beginning of WWII anti-aircraft astronauts were not in any country.
    Quote: hardroc
    Because incompetence. From top to bottom. And then "sudden insidious attacks", "no one expected," "burned down at the airfields." And the victims. Tens of millions. Apart from the victims, this is all lies. The Germans in 1941. were very weak. But the Red Army was generally below the plinth

    Dear you, wipe the foam from your mouth! Where did you buy your notorious chuycometer? You so unambiguously define "weaknesses" and "inferiorities" and other "plinths" that I have the same question to you all the time: IN COMPARISON WITH WHAT / WHOM? Maybe you have a French standard 5 million. army sample of the summer of 1940? Or the British army at Dunkirk from the same period? Or maybe the 1941 US armored / mechanized divisions? Name this great army, show the world the STANDARD. And we will compare.
    1. hardroc
      hardroc 30 March 2016 12: 56
      -1
      Quote: DesToeR
      Well, bring your standard

      Do not make yourself an idol.
      Quote: DesToeR
      I never heard from you flawed in comparison with what?

      To do this, read my comments. Perhaps many times. Until you understand.
      Quote: DesToeR
      calling really good cars with powerful weapons flawed.

      Are you in yourself? These "good cars" were taken out of production IMMEDIATELY after the start of the war (September 1941). It was a cow with a saddle, figuratively speaking. An awkward structure in which the weapons did not match the platform at all. It could have existed before the Second World War, when they built anything at all. But after the beginning of the Second World War, this nonsense immediately stopped. Because it took me to do business, there was no time for pre-war nonsense.
      Quote: DesToeR
      lower cost and greater motor life of BA in comparison with a tank with comparable armor and weapons.

      PPTs. You absolutely do not understand the meaning of the term "four-wheel drive" and its consequences, or are you fooling around?
      Quote: DesToeR
      because anti-aircraft armament weapons were not produced in the USSR

      Nevertheless, he produced DShK sparks. And he released "loners". And he even released quad maxims. And he released medium BA. But only the Germans had the mind to cross these products (see photo above).
      Quote: DesToeR
      and the blackening of the USSR, i.e. Of Russia

      It is simply amazing how scoops love to confuse themselves with Russians, Russia with the USSR. No, they are not right, they are not identical concepts.
      Quote: DesToeR
      Armored cars were in almost all countries of the world, moreover, at the beginning of WWII anti-aircraft astronauts were not in any country.

      What, again, an old story about a neighbor’s eye? If you argue with your cliches, then everyone would still be sitting in caves.
      Quote: DesToeR
      Dear, wipe the foam from your mouth!

      I don’t have one, don’t have to align everything on my own.
      Quote: DesToeR
      Call this great army already, show the world the STANDARD

      You want to get an idol all the time. It is understandable, scoops, they cannot live without idols. They are so arranged, so they can't do it any other way. They need a "beacon" all the time, simply because they are led. And you can't overtake anyone by catching up. Even if you catch up in slender rows, walking in step and shouting "correct propaganda".
  14. DesToeR
    DesToeR 30 March 2016 14: 55
    +1
    Quote: hardroc
    You want to get an idol all the time. It’s understandable, scoops, they can’t live without idols.

    In general, as always - UAVs, UAVs, UAVs. No specifics and no facts.
    1. hardroc
      hardroc 30 March 2016 18: 11
      -1
      Quote: DesToeR
      In general, as always - UAVs, UAVs, UAVs. No specifics and no facts.

      You are counting in vain that I will be engaged in your educational program on this subject. No, you have to self-educate yourself.
  15. DesToeR
    DesToeR 30 March 2016 21: 31
    0
    Quote: hardroc
    You are counting in vain that I will be engaged in your educational program on this subject. No, you have to self-educate yourself.

    Do not rush people. You have no knowledge. You are not even able to object to the usual arguments. And the lack of knowledge of simple things is sometimes simply surprising. Hence the manic dogma of all-wheel drive. Why all-wheel drive BA if the issue of cross-country ability was solved on Soviet BA in a different way? Why all-wheel drive for the protection of transport communications, if 90% of the vehicles moving along these communications were not all-wheel drive?
    The essence of all your dogmas is to choose some insignificant detail and hammer it into it with manic tenacity. You do not want to look around and see the process in comparison with global trends. You never catch up with the fact that the development of Soviet weapons systems was within the framework of the global mainstream.
    1. hardroc
      hardroc 30 March 2016 22: 24
      0
      Quote: DesToeR
      You have no knowledge.

      You know better, of course.
      Quote: DesToeR
      Hence the manic dogma of all-wheel drive.

      Yeah. I was not mistaken. You don’t at all know how a heavily loaded truck behaves on off-road (and BA, if it’s rude, then this is it) 6x4. My condolences to you. Like you need to start with the basics.
      Quote: DesToeR
      if the issue of cross-country ability was decided on Soviet BA in a different way?

      Oi-Ts. Is it patented? If not, then do not write openly, write in PM. I am running away, patented.
      Don't make up any crap. And go, talk to any KAMAZ driver, let him tell you what "cross-country ability" his 6x4 car has.
      Quote: DesToeR
      Why all-wheel drive in the protection of transport communications,

      Miracle, what have I been knocking on your head about for the second day? The fact that he did not have the appropriate weapons to protect communications. The 45-mm PT gun was not suitable for this at all, for it there were no targets on communications. And for the full use of the available weapons (the same 45-mm anti-tank gun), he had an unsuitable platform. Those. this is the same "cow with a saddle" that I have been trying to tell you about for the second day. And you cannot enter in any way. Your understanding is very difficult.
      Quote: DesToeR
      You do not want to look around and see the process in comparison with global trends.

      Again, the shoveling habits of nodding at neighbors, and the neighbors are sure to get dumber and a little poorer. Like, we are no worse than those wretched. But we don’t look at those not poor, we despise them. Because, very smart.
      Quote: DesToeR
      You never catch up with the fact that the development of Soviet weapons systems was within the framework of the global mainstream.

      Well, show me one more country like this, in which only cannon BA (i.e. completely stupid structures) of different models in June 1941. there were 3361 pcs. And this is not counting machine guns, there were 1899 of them too.