The myth of the involvement of Stalin in the death of Kirov

130 years ago, 27 March 1886, a Soviet politician and statesman Sergei Kirov was born. An intelligent and energetic leader could be Stalin’s successor, but he was killed as a result of the 1 assassination attempt on December 1934. The opponents of Stalin created a black myth that Stalin was involved in the death of Kirov and used this loud murder to start mass repressions.

Sergey Mironovich Kirov (real name - Kostrikov) was born in the family of a forester in Urzhum of the Vyatka province 15 (27) in March 1886 of the year. Four of the first children in the family died in childhood. Then Anna, Sergey and Elizabeth were born. In 1894, Sergey and his sisters were orphans - his father went to work and went missing, and his mother died. Sergey and his sisters were brought up by their grandmother, and after her death at the age of 7 years was transferred to an orphanage.

Sergey graduated from the Urzhum parish, and then - the city school. He studied well, during his studies, he was repeatedly awarded letters and diplomas. In the autumn of 1901, he left for Kazan, entered the Kazan Lower Mechanical-Technical Industrial School at the expense of the Zemstvo and the Board of Trustees of the Urzhum City School at the request of the teachers of the shelter and teachers of the city school. In 1904, he completed his education, receiving a first-degree award, being among the top five graduates of that year. In 1904, he began working as a draftsman in the city of Tomsk and studying at the preparatory courses of the Tomsk Institute of Technology.

In Tomsk, in November 1904, he joined the RSDLP. In 1905, he participated in a demonstration for the first time and was arrested by the police. After getting out of prison, he led the fighting squads. In July, 1905, the Tomsk City Party Conference elects Kirov as a member of the Tomsk Committee of the RSDLP. In October, 1905 of the year organized a strike at the large railway station Taiga. In July, 1906 was arrested and imprisoned in the Tomsk fortress (prison) for a year and a half. Thus, Sergey Kostrikov became a professional revolutionary.

In 1909, he comes to Vladikavkaz, becomes an employee of the North Caucasian cadet newspaper "Terek". He heads the organization of the RSDLP in the Caucasus. 11 August 1911 Kirov was arrested in Vladikavkaz in the case of the Tomsk underground printing press, it is transferred to Tomsk. However, the 16 March Court of 1912 of the Year issues an acquittal for lack of evidence. He returned to Vladikavkaz in April 1912. The pseudonym "Kirov" was taken by the name of Cyrus rather accidentally. In April 1912 of the year, the newspaper “Terek” published an article “Across the road”, for the first time signed “S. Kirov. Under this pseudonym, he entered history THE USSR.

He actively participated in the preparation of the October Revolution in 1917. From 25 February 1919 - Chairman of the Provisional Revolutionary Committee in Astrakhan, took part in the “Red Terror”. In February, 1919 of the year began a tumultuous military career, becoming a member of the Revolutionary Military Council of the 11 Army. He took part in the hostilities that led to the overthrow of the Georgian government, became a member of the Caucasus Bureau of the Central Committee of the RCP (B.), In June 1920 was appointed plenipotentiary of Soviet Russia in Georgia. 1921 year - at the X Congress of the RCP (b) is elected a candidate member of the Central Committee. In the same year he became First Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Azerbaijan. In April 1923 of the year at the XII Congress of the RCP (b) was elected a member of the Central Committee of the RCP (b). 8 January 1926 Sergey Kirov is elected the first secretary of the Leningrad provincial committee (regional committee) and the city committee of the party and the North-Western Bureau of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b), a candidate member of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b).

Kirov was an ardent opponent of the Trotsky-Zinoviev opposition. And when he became the first secretary of the Leningrad Regional Committee, the first thing was smashing this opposition in the city to smithereens. Kirov entered the close circle of Stalin's comrades. In turn, Stalin supported Kirov in clashes with the Leningrad opposition. In addition to political work, Kirov paid great attention to the development of the industry of Leningrad and the entire North-West district, and he also loved books and collected a huge personal library.

1 December 1934, in the building of the Leningrad regional party committee in Smolny, Sergei Mironovich Kirov was shot dead. Under Khrushchev in the USSR, the myth was launched that Stalin was the organizer of the murder of Kirov. Khrushchev directly accused Stalin of the fact that by setting up his cult, he unleashed mass repressions against “honest communists” who were killed almost immediately after their arrests. Allegedly, the reason for the repression of these innocent people was the mysterious murder of the first secretary of the Leningrad regional party committee, Sergei Kirov.

Speaking at the Twentieth Congress of the CPSU, Khrushchev said: “... It should be said that the circumstances surrounding the assassination of comrade Kirov are still fraught with a lot of incomprehensible and mysterious and require the most thorough investigation. There is reason to think that someone helped Nikolayev’s murderer of the people who were obliged to protect Kirov. A month and a half before the murder, Nikolaev was arrested for suspicious behavior, but was released and not even searched. It is extremely suspicious that when the 2 security officer attached to Kirov, 1934, was taken for interrogation, he was killed in a car “accident”, and no one was escorted. After the murder of Kirov, senior officials of the Leningrad NKVD were removed from work and subjected to very lenient punishments, but were shot in 1937. One may think that they were shot to cover the traces of the organizers of the murder of Kirov. ”

Thus, Khrushchev de facto identified Stalin as the main organizer of the murder of Kirov. However, this is only one of the false myths written in order to discredit the era of Stalin and whitewash Khrushchev himself. First, Stalin and Kirov were very close friends, as eloquently evidenced by the inscription of Stalin on the book “On Lenin and Leninism” donated to Kirov: “To my friend, my beloved brother, from the author”.

Secondly, Stalin did not have any relation to the death of the leader of the Leningrad Communists - Kirov, since he was shot in a fit of jealousy by a small party worker named Nikolayev, whose wife had a stormy love affair with Kirov. Kirov had a close relationship with Milda Draule, the wife of Nikolayev. In general, Sergey Kirov was a lover of women (despite the fact that his wife was seriously ill), especially ballet dancers of the Mariinsky Theater. In addition, Nikolaev suffered from a mental disorder and suffered from delusions of grandeur. Nikolayev’s diary was declassified in 2009. According to the records in him, Nikolaev decided to take revenge on Kirov for his dismissal from the Institute of Party History, after which he became unemployed. Nikolaev himself compares himself with the killer of Alexander II, Andrei Zhelyabov. Thus, mental disorder and personal motives became the reason for the murder.

It should be noted that the household motive does not reject the version of the “Trotsky plot”, since such people like Nikolaev are easily used in a dark. There are quite a few oddities. For example, the fact that Kirov was alone in the corridor, and where his guard was, is not known. When Stalin, who arrived in Leningrad, demanded that Kirov-Borisov, a security guard, be brought to him, then instead of a security guard, he was brought his body. It is interesting that, firstly, from the moment Stalin voiced the demands to immediately bring Borisov to him for questioning until the last one died, only 30 minutes passed. Secondly, the driver Kuzin, who along with two operatives - Maliy and Vinogradov - carried the security guard Kirov Borisov for interrogation to Stalin, and then, and more than twenty years later, that is, already under Khrushchev, showed the same thing. That both employees - Maliy and Vinogradov - prevented him from driving normally, staged a traffic accident, snatching the steering wheel from him, as a result of which the car crashed into the wall of the house, after which he found Borisov’s corpse in the back and the opera themselves escaped. They were quickly caught and shot. His cousin planted. That is, "ends in the water." After serving, Kuzin at the height of the Khrushchev campaign of de-Stalinization again, almost word for word, repeated what he had said to Stalin.

Third, Stalin saw in Kirov one of his possible successors. Personally, Stalin himself pushed Kirov into the general secretaries. Immediately before the assassination attempt, Stalin officially, at the Politburo, proposed to elect Kirov as secretary of the Central Committee and release him from work in Leningrad, citing this with his state of health and age. Stalin liked the intelligent, active, authoritative, well aware of the danger of Trotskyism, besides Russian-born Kirov. Therefore, Stalin could not be the organizer of the murder of Kirov.

The basis of the myth was laid by one more member of the old "Leninist Guard" - Nikolay Bukharin. The myth was born in the form of a vile and dirty couplet, compiled personally by Bukharin (it was a whale at every kind of gossip): “Eh, cucumbers and tomatoes, Stalin killed Kirov in the hallway ...” in the hallway ... "). Other, less venerable "tongues" and emigrants followed Bukharin. The greatest contribution to this “theory” was made by one of the most terrible enemies of the Russian people - Trotsky. His followers followed him. As a result, the traitor and the hidden Trotskyite Khrushchev publicly smashed this abomination throughout the Union.

The essence of the myth was as follows. Even at the XVII Congress of the CPSU (b), delegates wanted to elect Kirov as general secretary of the party and even voted for it. However, Stalin falsified all the voting data and then eliminated Kirov as a supposedly dangerous competitor. In 1937, Mr. Stalin reached the rest of the delegates to this congress, which is why he was called the “congress of those executed”.

On the instructions of Khrushchev, Olga Shatunovskaya (she was repressed in 1937 and had a grudge against the Stalinist empire) took up the “investigation”. She nakropala already 64 volumes of all kinds of nonsense of various kinds of aspiring Trotskyists, who shared rumors and frankly lied. Therefore, Vyacheslav Molotov, head of the first commission of the Central Committee of the CPSU to investigate the murder of Kirov (1956-1957), and made the correct conclusion: “Khrushchev hinted that Stalin had killed Kirov. Some people still believe in it. The grain was thrown. A commission was created in 1956. A man of twelve different people watched a lot of documents, did not find anything against Stalin ... The commission concluded that Stalin was not involved in the murder of Kirov. Khrushchev refused to publish it - not in his favor. ”

In this way, a lot of facts indicate that Stalin had no relation to the murder of Kirov and could not have it, since they were close friends and political allies loyal to each other. The myth is still used in anti-Stalinist propaganda, apparently due to the fact that the notorious Dr. Goebbels said: "Lie, lie and lie again - the more you lie, the more firmly they will believe."

Comments

[sa-ag]

Kirov, Frunze, Ordzhonikidze, coincidence of course ...

[Igor39]

What are you hinting at, dear? Do not even think about it.

[sa-ag]

Quote: Igor39

Do not even think about it.

A quote from the Encyclopedia of Contemporary History "... all the positive that was undoubtedly was achieved in an unacceptable way" (C) and "Don't make yourself an idol" (C)

[Nicholas C.]

The so-called "revolutionary terror" against the Russian elite had been going on for decades even before the October coup. The elite, the best Russian people were killed in thousands, in the end tens of thousands: tsars, Stolypins, the most competent, educated, intelligent and active in our society.

Do you still think that terror on such a scale could have been carried out by some amateur circles of "revolutionaries" - terrorists? Without funding, supplying weapons, explosives, without propaganda processing and reprogramming? The organizational support was the most powerful, legal protection, manipulation of public opinion in their purchased media (Compare the situations with the killer Savchenko and the killer Zasulich). And the channels for freeing terrorists, transporting them from places of serving their sentences abroad, keeping them there at someone's expense, worked to the fullest. Only Stolypin's ties temporarily diminished the murder of the color of our people.

Did it stop after 1917? Why? Well, yes, priests, scientists, officers, Cossacks ceased to be considered. But prominent Bolsheviks then? They had different currents. Nogin, Frunze, Kirov ... Who benefits? Really Stalin?

What is happening now? Curious selection: www.kramola.info/vesti/methody-genocida/216

[Aleksandr1959]

Recently, in the 90s, the destruction of scientists working in breakthrough areas took place. And then look for someone profitable. The arrogant Saxon trace is quite clearly traceable.

[Alexey T. (Oper)]

Quote: Nikolai S.

The elite, the best Russian people were killed by the thousands, as a result of tens of thousands

Straight in the thousands? And can you give real numbers?

[Mushroom]

Not in thousands, but IN MILLIONS. According to the order there was a cutting of Cossacks by regions of the Cossack Troops, in total - 6 million. In the Rostov region - it was cut - a million. This is after the Civil War. Yasha Sverdlov worked in the Rostov Region, other Jewish figures in other areas of the Cossack Troops.
And for this "holocaust" no one has yet answered, even these crimes have not been declared in the world. For killing Russians in a world ruled by the Fed is not a crime.
And Stalin just crushed Jewish fascism 20-30x in the territory of the RI byshveys, slapping all the bloody ghouls.

[solzh]

I have never met such nonsense ...

[Ivan Tartugai]

Quote: sa-ag

Kirov, Frunze, Ordzhonikidze, coincidence of course ...

If you think you can continue the list by adding Krupskaya NK, Tsiolkovsky CE, Menzhinsky BP, Ostrovsky NA, Gorky AM, Michurin IV and many others who died after 1934, after the murder of Kirov SM, during the so-called unleashed mass repressions . If you follow your logic, then Stalin IV was unambiguously involved in their death, and there can be no such coincidence.

[sa-ag]

Quote: Ivan Tartugay

If you think you can continue the list by adding Krupskaya NK, Tsiolkovsky CE, Menzhinsky BP, Ostrovsky NA, Gorky AM, Michurin IV and many others who died after 1934, after the murder of Kirov SM, during the so-called unleashed mass repressions . If you follow your logic, then Stalin IV was unambiguously involved in their death, and there can be no such coincidence.

The three men whom I cited were leaders and any of them could take control of the country; those you cited were not

[Alex]

Quote: sa-ag

The three that I brought were leaders and any of them could stand up to rule the country

Exactly, they could have done it if Stalin had died. As such an option: before the removal / assassination of Stalin (as Herbert Meyer said there: “If they can convince the good old Vladimir to leave the Kremlin with military honors and a solemn salute, that’s fine. If Putin is too stubborn to understand that his career is over, and from the Kremlin it can only be carried forward with his feet with a hole in the back of his head - this will suit us as well. ”) it is necessary to remove all those who can quickly and efficiently replace him and deal with the conspirators. Trotsky and the company were not fools, and Brutus and Cassius were not going to repeat the fate.

I do not claim that everything was exactly so, but as you see, the same facts can be interpreted from directly opposite positions.

[Ivan Tartugai]

Quote: sa-ag

... the ones you cited were not.

The influence of Ostrovsky NA, Gorky AM on the people of the country, and the whole World, on the formation of their self-consciousness, on the formation of their personalities was significantly greater than Kirova SM, Frunze MV, Ordzhonikidze GK. These people were both leaders and fighters of a very high, international level. There were none above them. Although they did not become Nobel laureates like Solzhenitsyn, Sakharov, Gorbachev, Abama, Brodsky and many others.

Quote: sa-ag

The three that I brought were leaders and any of them could stand up to rule the country ...

You know, to embark on the management of a country by the personal qualities of a person, even a genius is not even enough. We also need a team of like-minded people who will help in managing the country and not just help, as executors of orders, and together with it will manage the country, will take both the initiative and the share of responsibility. Such members of the Stalin IV team were Kirov SM, and Frunze MV, and Ordzhonikidze GK. All of them were allies of Stalin IV. There were three of your teams that you brought to rule the country, none of them had, and none of them was going to compete with the government.
Although the country, in principle, can be controlled by almost anyone. Another thing is how to manage. You yourself witnessed and saw how the country was ruled by Khrushchev, Brezhnev, Andropov, Gorbachev and many other similar presidents and presidents. They were controlled by their numerous teams. Raisa Maksimovna controlled a little, a little Popov, a little Grachev, a little Yakovlev, a little more Gaidar, a lot of Chubais, a little Khakamad, a little Narusev and other numerous team members. And the result of their management, you also saw and see.

[Zulu_S]

Quote: Ivan Tartugay

Although the country, in principle, can be controlled by almost anyone.

Of course, anyone! We have "every cook can rule the state." And most importantly, he will never give up on this.
And what, N. Ostrovsky was also killed?
Womanizer Kirov, a "great lover of ballerinas" was killed by the neurasthenic Nikolaev with the direct connivance of the NKVD. Stalin took advantage of this and set up a bloodbath, destroying his political rivals - Zinoviev, Kamenev, Bukharin - the faithful Leninists, which was also Stalin. And the only, but fundamental political discrepancy in their views is the question of POWER! Everyone believed that he could manage the state.

[siberalt]

However, this little article, 30 years old, was late. At that time, no one believed in the murder of Kirov by Stalin, but now it’s interesting only to lovers of Soviet history.

[Villon]

Quote: siberalt

However, this little article, 30 years old, was late. At that time, no one believed in the murder of Kirov by Stalin, but now it’s interesting only to lovers of Soviet history.

People who are not interested in Soviet history are not interested in history at all.

[moskowit]

What have you, dear, not announced the entire list? Sklyansky, Dzerzhinsky, Menzhinsky, Gorky and still idle "truth-lovers" and "children of the thaw" counted 40 innocent victims of Stalinism, plus another 000 died in the Great War ... An interesting question then arises ... And who destroyed fascism and raised the country from ruins? According to the calculations of the apologists of "democratic values" in the Great USSR and the population, by 000 there should not be left ...

[venaya]

The commission concluded that Stalin was not involved in the killing of Kirov. Khrushchev refused to publish it - not in his favor

There is a clear "political expediency", she does not accept the restriction in lies. Gebelsovskoe: "lie, lie and lie again - the more you lie, the stronger they will believe ” - such words most closely match the method of Khrushchev's "proofs", it seems that he could not find anything else in his desire to conquer power.

[Nikolay K]

Thus, the mass of facts suggests that Stalin had nothing to do with the killing of Kirov.

Yeah, Samsonov has more than enough arguments. The most important of them: how could Stalin kill Kirov, he gave him a book with his own autograph

[Ivan Nevelskoy]

Well Samsonov!

[kalibr]

The myth was born in the form of a vile and dirty ditty composed personally by Bukharin (it was a gossip expert): “Oh, cucumbers and tomatoes, Stalin Kirova killed in the corridor ...” (another option - “Oh, cucumbers and tomatoes, Stalin Kirova sewed in the corridor ... ").
And how is it known that this is it? Did he put an autograph under the text?

Interestingly, more than an hour has passed since this question was asked. And the answer - how is it known about Bukharin still not! "Midnight is approaching, but Lensky is still gone!" Maybe it won't, huh?

[Igor39]

How much could you get for such a ditty? Nevertheless, it was distributed then, it says a lot.

[kalibr]

I always remember in such cases Pushkin - you can’t say better than him - than the Impostor is strong, not with weapons ... but with popular opinion. And yes, it was possible to receive and received, and still sang! Why?

[Igor39]

From the veil of prejudice
The old throne was exposed;
The shackles were falling. Law,
Leaning on liberty, proclaimed equality,
And we exclaimed: "Bliss!"
Oh woe! Oh crazy dream!
Where is liberty and law? Above us
A single dominates the ax.
We overthrew the kings. Killer with executioners
We were chosen as king. Oh God! Oh shame!
But you sacred freedom
The goddess is pure, no - you are not guilty.
In a fit of violent blindness
In the despicable rage of the people
You hid from us; healing your vessel
It is veiled with a bloody veil;
But you will come again with vengeance and glory -
And again your enemies will fall;
The people who ate your consecrated nectar
Everything seeks to revel in it again;
As if Bacchus was furious,
He wanders, longing for thirst;
So - he will find you. Under the canvas of equality
In your arms he will rest sweetly;
So a storm of gloomy blowjob!
A.S. Pushkin "Excerpt from the elegy" Andrei Chenier "

[avt]

Quote: Igor39

How much could you get for such a ditty?

When? Again, to whom? "Favorite" of the party "Bukharchik"? By the way, Stalin called him that, and he was practically a friend of the family - Stalin let him go to his wife both during his studies and at work. It was “Bukharchik”, when he got Stalin out and was arrested, wrote to him - I'm sorry, they say, he ran from you to Kamenev, and from him to you. “The favorite of the party,” Kolya Balabolkin, was not a real politician, but a person pleasant in all respects "and a member of the Cheka collegium in the civil society, by the way, he tried to guess who would get the upper hand and traded his ass in all the bazaars where he could run. He lived according to the principle - to betray on time, it is not to betray, but to foresee.

First, Stalin and Kirov were very close friends, as eloquently testified by Stalin’s inscription on the book “About Lenin and Leninism” donated to Kirov: “My friend, beloved brother from the author”.

According to the recollections of Stalin’s adoptive son, Kirov, when he arrived in Moscow, lived in Stalin’s apartment in the Kremlin.

[Mahmut]

Favorite "party" Bukharchik "? So by the way, Stalin called him

Lenin called him Bukharchik, and Stalin called him Kolya-balabolka.

[solzh]

Quote: Mahmut

Lenin called him Bukharchik, and Stalin called him Kolya-balabolka.

No. Stalin called Bukharin Nikolasha and Bukharchik.

[voyaka uh]

"How much could you get for such a ditty?" ///

ABOUT! In the 30s the coolest jokes walked, for which
immediately sent to the camp, but no jokes
diminished (people were risk averse!)
I'll give one: "A peasant walks into the store and asks for the reins.
the seller thought "leaders" and he replies: "here they are on the wall
hang. "Peasant:" No, I don't need the leaders (reins) that I need
hang, and those that can be controlled "...

[Igor39]

Here is another version of the execution: "The plane is flying, there is a thawed patch at the bottom, they killed Kirov - we will also kill Stalin."

[Nikolay K]

By that time, Trotsky had already been kicked out of the country, so he couldn’t, Bukharin remained, who else?

[MrK]

Quote: kalibr

The myth was born in the form of a vile and dirty ditty composed personally by Bukharin

Maybe, but maybe not. This mulk was launched by Trotsky. Here from Kurlandchik to Proza.ru.
“Trotsky was the first to announce that the murder of Kirov was“ arranged by Stalin ”from his Mexican faraway. And the supporters of the“ demon of revolution ”immediately picked up this notion.
Here is what Barmin says in Trotsky’s Falcons, referring to the “independent socialist historian” Boris Nikolaevsky, as Barmin describes him, “one of the most erudite and impartial historians of the revolutionary movement”:
«The Party Congress, held in February 1934, decided that Kirov should become the leading party leader, personifying the new course of the party. With this in mind, he was supposed to move from Leningrad to Moscow and head the main political department of the Central Committee. For Stalin, this could mean only one thing - the beginning of the end of his era. Stalin was the only person who benefited from Kirov's assassination».
Judging by this quote, Nikolayevsky understood Soviet affairs in much the same way as the famous mammal in famous fruits. What kind of ceremony is this - "the congress decided that Kirov should become the leading party leader"? What kind of position is this, which never existed in the CPSU (B.) —The “leading party leader”? What kind of mysterious department of the Central Committee is this - the "main political"? There was no department in the Central Committee with that name - and not a single department in the then Central Committee was so important that the person who took the post of its head would automatically become higher and more significant than Stalin.
With a smart look, Nikolaev bears. Sci-fi is fantastic! To refute it, I personally needed only to open the "Verbatim Report of the XVII Congress of the CPSU (B.)".
In numerous speeches, there is not a word about the "decision" that Kirov should become the "leading party leader." Moreover, according to the then party rules, the congress simply could not appoint anyone, anywhere in the apparatus of the Central Committee. The congress elected the Central Committee, the Party Control Commission, the Central Auditing Commission and outlined the composition of the Soviet Control Commission (which they later had to approve in the Council of People's Commissars).
But further appointments were made by the plenum of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b). Which took place on the closing day of the congress. He again elected Kirov a member of the Politburo, as well as a member of the Secretariat of the Central Committee, but, note, “leaving the secretary of the Leningrad regional committee»!
That is, they did not appoint Kirov to be any “leading leader”, they did not offer him any “main political department of the Central Committee” (for the complete absence of such a department). He did not intend to move to Moscow at all, he did not at all become a "threat" to Stalin. Yes, because he has always been a supporter of Stalin, sincere and faithful! So all ignorant writings of Nikolaev immediately turn into nonsense sucked from a finger - but the mulch launched by Trotsky still continues to walk around the wide world.

[Villon]

Quote: kalibr

The myth was born in the form of a vile and dirty ditty composed personally by Bukharin (it was a gossip expert): “Oh, cucumbers and tomatoes, Stalin Kirova killed in the corridor ...” (another option - “Oh, cucumbers and tomatoes, Stalin Kirova sewed in the corridor ... ").
And how is it known that this is it? Did he put an autograph under the text?

Do you think that such ditties arose without the author, by themselves? And if they had an author, then who is he, in your opinion?

[Oldwiser]

they were close friends and loyal political comrades

Well, well, comrade Samsonov. Oh well.
Does it mean that no one is eliminating close friends and "political associates" anywhere?
And then what about Adolf Aloisievich and his "close friends" and "political associates" - the Strasser brothers?

[kalibr]

Great reasoning, isn't it? "Could not!" It is important whether you did or did not do and what it confirms or what it refutes. And de facto, the ruler can do everything: he can say that we are against secret diplomacy and engage in secret diplomacy, he can lie in the eye (with the best intentions, of course!), Can do anything that is justified by political expediency. Otherwise ... he's a bad ruler!

[sa-ag]

Quote: OldWiser

And then what about Adolf Aloisievich and his "close friends" and "political associates" - the Strasser brothers?

By the way, yes, Rem made a mistake by declaring himself and Aloizovich as the Fuhrer, the latter did not forgive this, of course, a coincidence :-)

[Oldwiser]

Quote: sa-ag

Rem made a mistake

In the case of Ernst Röhm, the fact that it was Captain Ernst Röhm who recruited our Adolf, Aloisievich Schicklgruber, was a freelance informant of the Reichswehr, and introduced him (as an agent) into the newly created NSDAP to “cover” the life of this party to the authorities of the Weimar Republic. This alone was enough for the ruthless elimination of "Brother Ernst." And, of course, there could be no "two-Fuehrerism" in the new empire, as well as reliance on the SA assault units as a real force. "Bolivar will not stand two" - "there should be only one" (Fuhrer of the German nation).

[Oldwiser]

Quote: sa-ag

Rem made a mistake

In the case of Ernst Röhm, the fact that it was Captain Ernst Röhm who recruited our Adolf, Aloisievich Schicklgruber, was a freelance informant of the Reichswehr, and introduced him (as an agent) into the newly created NSDAP to “cover” the life of this party to the authorities of the Weimar Republic. This alone was enough for the ruthless elimination of "Brother Ernst." And, of course, there could be no "two-Fuehrerism" in the new empire, as well as reliance on the SA assault units as a real force. "Bolivar will not stand two" - "there should be only one" (Fuhrer of the German nation).

[V.ic]

Quote: OldWiser

And then what about Adolf Aloisievich and his "close friends" and "political associates" - the Strasser brothers?

Again an old shitty red-brown song?

[avt]

Quote: V.ic

Again an old shitty red-brown song?

How else? The main thing is, by a govnets, to smear the type - well, the truth is, in fact, a real analogy. And you wriggle there in search of real facts, and if you find them you don’t like, it’s smart to shake your head with a smirk, well, well, I’m supposed to know the truth. I personally received it from the astral.

[Alex]

Quote: avt

The main thing is, by a govnets, to smear the type - well, the truth is, in fact, a real analogy. Do you bother there looking for real facts?

"The one who was doused with shit is always to blame - he has to wash himself, in the end." (FROM)
Yu. Semenov. "Tass is authorized to declare ..." Paul Dick's dialogue with Slavin.

[Oldwiser]

The red-brown ones have nothing to do with it - the conversation is about the fact that when establishing a regime of personal power, considerations of personal friendship and the relationship of political alliance no longer matter.

[Oldwiser]

The red-brown ones have nothing to do with it - the conversation is about the fact that when establishing a regime of personal power, considerations of personal friendship and the relationship of political alliance no longer matter.

[avt]

Quote: OldWiser

The red-brown ones have nothing to do with it - the conversation is about the fact that when establishing a regime of personal power, considerations of personal friendship and the relationship of political alliance no longer matter.

Oooh! Wisely! Well, there is no way to get out of it - Stalin! No one else .... And maybe all the same there is someone? Well, if you use your own paradigm and look at whose warm place, “the cradle of the revolution,” Stalin put his PERSONAL friend, who even at the congress of the “winners” did not let his friend cheat? Who taxied Peter in the Civil? Who then sat down on the Comintern, and this political special service was not sour on a global scale. Whose personnel Mironych probably touched, and Stalin finished off after his death in order to hold the city with an iron hand? But Peter then, in those conditions, the key city was on a par with the capital. Do you want to look for the answer in the hut that Razliv was in the summer of 1917? Do you think Ilyich was the only one scribbling theses on a hemp? Who so famously organized all these boobs and pipiski of Nikolaev and Draule? The clothes of the murdered man were preserved, and not even to the expert, but familiar with Nikolaev’s anthropometric data, it’s clear at the sight of the inlets — Nikolaev could only shoot Kirov lying! I exaggerate of course, but not very much from the truth. And the fate of practically repeating the Kirov’s one, Zhdanov, whom Stalin, perhaps the only one called Andrei Alexandrovich from a close circle in public, and was happy when Svetlana married her son, doesn’t wind up anything? Well, after the war with a sudden death? Something like that quickly and successfully layouts then ....

[Dora2014]

The wind of history has already begun to scatter trash from his grave and pluck the noodles from our ears. By comprehending the truth about our country, about our leaders, we gain Dignity.

[Cap.Morgan]

The killer of Nikolaev was also killed.
Then they shot the gpushniks involved in the investigation.
And of course, everything is in order. Not involved. And that’s it.

[Igor39]

In the Kirov case, about 100 people were shot, I read.

[kalibr]

After that, it was possible to investigate anything, just as after the death of all the witnesses in the Kennedy case!

[kalibr]

The tsar in Russia is always GOOD. The boyars are bad!

[IS-80]

Quote: kalibr

The tsar in Russia is always GOOD. The boyars are bad!

Well, so it has been for centuries. It is only important to remember that the retinue plays the king.

[kalibr]

And which retinue played "that king"? One talented economist got around, Voznesensky, wrote "The Economy of the USSR in VO", "The Political Economy of Communism." The leader himself wrote in the margins - "This is who will replace me!" and ... "replaced", according to the "Leningrad case".

Cons for being untrue? He did not write this, and was not shot?

[Villon]

Quote: kalibr

One talented economist got around, Voznesensky, wrote "The Economy of the USSR in VO", "The Political Economy of Communism."

You, dear Kalibr, began to talk something. In the USSR of that time there were many talented economists. Otherwise, the USSR could not have become such an advanced economic power in such a short time. There are currently no talented economists.

[hardrock]

Quote: Villon

Otherwise, the USSR could not have become such an advanced economic power in such a short time.

Do you believe in these tales yourself? Why then was the "advanced economic power" inhabited by hicks? It doesn't work that way.

[Pissarro]

Oh, the economists of the Gaidar school pulled themselves up, measuring economic power in sausage sticks

[hardrock]

Quote: Pissarro

measuring economic power in sticks of sausage

And in what way is it measured in your opinion? In stupid pieces of iron with guns? You are mistaken. And in general, take an interest, what for people unite in the state. You will be very surprised.

[Pissarro]

I live in the Emirates, we have sausages in bulk. So, according to the unfortunate economists, the emirates are a country of fucking economic power.
And here there are islands near us, the Maldives. There are sushi with a gulkin nose, some small islands with palm trees and hotels. And also forty varieties of sausages. The output of degenerates - the Maldives also have awesome economic power

Economic power is a means of production and markets, resources and personnel. But not sausage.

[hardrock]

Quote: Pissarro

Economic power is a means of production and markets, resources and personnel. But not sausage.

Miracle you are illiterate. The economic power of the state is measured in its ability to most fully satisfy the needs of its citizens. Including and in sausage. And the means of production, this thing is already secondary and completely insignificant.
Picked up soviet nonsense, you know, and broadcasts like a loudspeaker on a pole. Those "great economists" have already driven the economy to the top. No, not enough for him. Wants a second time. But not for himself, he dug himself in the Emirates.

[solzh]

These "great economists" also brought the country to the brink of an abyss.

[Warrior2015]

Stalin had nothing to do with the assassination of Kirov and could not have, since they were close friends and loyal political comrades-in-arms.

Hmm, apparently the author does not know that in politics, VERY FREQUENTLY and OWN FRIENDS AND COMPANIES are eliminated! They do not just say that - politics is a dirty business ...

[hardrock]

Quote: Samsonov Alexander

various injuries of the uninhabited Trotskyists

It is amazing how the author does not like people without hiding his regret that supposedly few of our compatriots were "finished off" by members of the pseudo-religious sect "witnesses of socialism."

[V.ic]

Quote: hardroc

allegedly few of his compatriots were "finished off" by members of the pseudo-religious sect "witnesses of socialism."

And here I applaud Ramona Mercader!

[hardrock]

Quote: V.ic

And here I applaud Ramona Mercader!

And really, what is wrong with the actions of this hired killer? Only now the Criminal Code with you, fortunately, does not agree.
Why only him? Go to the Donskoye cemetery in Moscow, lay flowers on Blokhin's grave. From 10000 to 50000 (usually considered to be 20000) "enemies" on his account. Just an individual to your taste. You can also "honor the memory" of Maggo at the Novodevichy cemetery. Go bolder. These are the idols of your kind, apparently.

[V.ic]

Quote: hardroc

These are idols of your kind, apparently.

Lieutenant Colley, who commanded the destruction of Songmi Village, and Admiral Forrestal, who had previously jumped out of a 16th-floor window shouting "The Russians are coming!" - "these are your idols, apparently."

[hardrock]

Quote: V.ic

Lieutenant Colley, who commanded the destruction of Songmi Village, and Admiral Forrestal, who had previously jumped out of a 16th-floor window shouting "The Russians are coming!" - "these are your idols, apparently."

Why are you doing this? Do you like water circles in the back place to run? Apparently, yes. I see no other grounds for your balabolstvo.

[Ivan Nevelskoy]

Well, stupid. For. What should he applaud?

[IS-80]

Quote: hardroc

It is amazing how the author does not like people without hiding his regret that supposedly few of our compatriots were "finished off" by members of the pseudo-religious sect "witnesses of socialism."

You yourself are not tired of your nonsense?

[hardrock]

Quote: IS-80

You yourself are not tired of your nonsense?

Bullshit, this is not mine. I do not have the skill and habit to state them.

[Turkir]

Whose compatriots were "finished off"? Compatriots of the sect "witnesses of socialism"?

[Pvi1206]

As for the role of Stalin in the presentation of textbooks of Soviet history, this is one big myth.
The main thing is the result of his work. He created such a state that world evil forces still cannot defeat him ...

[sa-ag]

Quote: Pvi1206

He created such a state that world evil forces still cannot defeat him ...

It was not he who created V.I. Lenin and under him the state confirmed its viability by defeating everyone in the civil war

[Warrior2015]

Quote: sa-ag

It was not he who created V.I. Lenin and under him the state confirmed its viability by defeating everyone in the civil war

Well, the state that Lenin created was rebuilt by Stalin in many ways. I would even say that after 1943, when they even reached the dissolution of the International, only a certain part remained from the Leninist state.

[Alexey T. (Oper)]

Quote: Warrior2015

I would even say that after the 1943 year, when they even reached the dissolution of the International, only a certain part remained from the Leninist state.

Perhaps you mean the dissolution of not the International but the Comintern? Well, Cominform was immediately formed to replace him. So only the name has changed.

[Warrior2015]

Quote: Alexey T. (Opera)

Perhaps you mean the dissolution of not the International but the Comintern? Well, Cominform was immediately formed to replace him. So only the name has changed.

Actually, the Com. International means precisely the Communist. The International, did not know?

And Cominform - this is all already - well, completely different content, and completely different goals. The "last hotbed of Trotskyism" was extinguished.

[Alexey T. (Oper)]

Quote: Warrior2015

Actually, the Com. International means precisely the Communist. The International, did not know?

And Kominform - this is all already - well, a completely different content, and completely different goals.

Absolutely the same eggs, only in profile.

[hardrock]

Quote: sa-ag

Not him, created V.I. Lenin

What "Lenin created" ended in 1928. removal of Trotsky from power. Further, the history of the USSR has nothing to do with Ulyanov. The USSR, which the sectarians "witnesses of socialism" pray for, was created by Dzhugashvili.
Since the people studied at the seminary, then he also built the state on a pseudo-religious principle. Those. it was not even a state, but a large totalitarian pseudo-religious sect (the pseudo-religion was called "socialism") on the scale of a state called the USSR.
It remains to add that the sectarian USSR was killed by Dzhugashvili with the help of renegade Bolsheviks (Stalinists). The real Bolsheviks ("old Bolsheviks", or the so-called "Trotskyists") and Ulyanov personally have nothing to do with such a USSR. He just died on time and Dzhugashvili was appointed to the role of the main Idol. What about the pagans without an Idol? And there is a place of worship. Everything, as it should be with idolaters.

[Aleksandr1959]

With the removal of Trotsky, the idea of ​​a world revolution was buried and a course was taken to build socialism in a single country. And this course, as time has shown, was the only correct one under those conditions. And not only Trotsky was removed, but also partly the "old Leninist guard", which by that time had already been cut off to the impossibility of its claims to power.

[hardrock]

Quote: Alexander1959

With the removal of Trotsky, the idea of ​​a world revolution was poached

Do not believe the Bolsheviks, they are deceiving you. This idea ended with the Polish campaign.

Quote: Alexander1959

and embarked on the construction of socialism in a single country.

I repeat once again, "socialism" as the OEF does not exist in nature. After the overthrow of Trotsky and the massacre of the still recent "like-minded people", Dzhugashvili began to build a pseudo-religious sect of "witnesses of socialism" throughout the country. Those. the difference between Dzhugashvili and the rural false prophet was only in the scale of devilry. And he chose the OEF for this sect a slave-owning one, not even a feudal one. I am not particularly aware, but I think in totalitarian sects the sectarians are also in the position of something like the slaves of the sect. The same is with Dzhugashvili's "socialism" in the USSR. For escape from paradise (USSR) the death penalty was imposed (in the presence of extenuating circumstances, they were given 10 years) and repression to relatives. By the Decree of 1934.

Quote: Alexander1959

And this course, as time has shown, was the only right one in those conditions.

It was a nightmare. For the Bolsheviks, any nightmare was “the only true one”. They could not do otherwise.

Quote: Alexander1959

but also partly the "old Leninist guard", which by that time had already become impossibly cut off in its claims to power.

She was no different from Dzhugashvili. He, too, was cut short in his quest for absolute power. Just unlike the others, this shooter succeeded. Therefore, he died in the country, and not in the basement.

[Turkir]

You mixed it up: the idol was Leib Davidovich Bronstein.

[Oldwiser]

Regarding what the state was under Vladimir Ilyich, one must listen to Vladimir Ilyich himself -

our device is bad and no good

because

our apparatus is 95% of the previous tsarist regime

... And another remark - the period of war (civil + intervention of the "allied" countries) is by no means the time for state building, the real construction of the state apparatus began only under the NEP.

[Oldwiser]

Regarding what the state was under Vladimir Ilyich, one must listen to Vladimir Ilyich himself -

our device is bad and no good

because

our apparatus is 95% of the previous tsarist regime

... And another remark - the period of war (civil + intervention of the "allied" countries) is by no means the time for state building, the real construction of the state apparatus began only under the NEP.

[kalibr]

Strange, but what was in the 91st you forgot? And is our present state a "tracing paper" from Stalin's? It was he who created the state, which was defeated, and only 38 years after his death! The life of one generation! Total! Not too solid margin of safety, eh? It is clear that the "traitors" are to blame for everything (although where were the people looking?). But how did they get to the top, with whom did they get into politics, with whom did they acquire the experience of "political struggle" and the skills of managing the economy? An old dog cannot be taught new tricks - they say in Asia. And they were all young ... when? And then they led the country.

[IS-80]

Quote: kalibr

Strange, but what was in the 91st you forgot? And is our present state a "tracing paper" from Stalin's? It was he who created the state, which was defeated, and only 38 years after his death! The life of one generation! Total! Not too solid margin of safety, eh? It is clear that the "traitors" are to blame for everything (although where were the people looking?). But how did they get to the top, with whom did they get into politics, with whom did they acquire the experience of "political struggle" and the skills of managing the economy? An old dog cannot be taught new tricks - they say in Asia. And they were all young ... when? And then they led the country.

But with him they did not win. Criticizing is always easy. Especially possessing aftertaste.

[Riv]

That is, it is Stalin's fault that almost immediately after his death the socialist system was reformed? Accordingly, Beria is to blame for the fact that he died during the coup of the 53rd year, and the main character of this coup, Zhukov, is that his memoirs were repeatedly edited during reprints, after the death of the marshal. What would we blame Hitler for? :)

There is nothing unclear about Kirov's death, although it is obvious that the investigation was biased. A party official was killed for personal reasons, out of jealousy. Nothing new. Why kill the killer (after all, he was exactly eliminated)? The reason, in my opinion, lies on the surface. During interrogation in Moscow, Nikolaev would have said everything that would have been demanded of him. "That people walk on their ears, or people walk on their sides ..." - including. Stalin would have had an iron cart for reprisals against the Leningrad Trotskyists. They tried to prevent this and did not allow it. But there is no reliable evidence that it was someone who used Nikolaev. It is not surprising if no one has used it.
Shoals of lifeguard? Kirov had only one bodyguard, and Kirov himself was completely disregard for his safety.

In general, everything is understandable and there are no reasons for conspiracy theories. However, the consequences for the party opposition were still disappointing. Stalin became convinced that the "organs" were virtually uncontrollable. Yezhov was elevated and just two years later the party functionaries ran in a crowd through the stage, to master the taiga open spaces.

[sa-ag]

Quote: Riv

They killed a party official, for personal reasons, out of jealousy. Nothing new.

Every day, or at least a year, a high-ranking party official is killed for reasons of jealousy ??? In my opinion, this was the only time in the history of the USSR, so there is absolutely nothing ordinary in this ...

[Riv]

Come on ... Frunze died on the operating table - the stench also all over the country: "Stalin is to blame!" But in fact - a banal intolerance to anesthesia. Kotovsky was killed on personal grounds. Although not a party functionary, but all the same - Stalin ordered, it is assigned! Slashchev (the same White Guard general who taught the "Shot" course) was killed out of revenge. The killer was not even tried. Well, exactly, Stalin is also to blame.

Here are three "mysterious deaths" for you. And those who seriously study this period will name three dozen.

[Warrior2015]

Quote: Riv

Frunze died on the operating table - also stink all over the country:

Well, don't play down - not everything is simple with Frunze ...

[Riv]

Still would! If it is already possible to weave Stalin’s intrigues, we must do this. Otherwise it will not be so interesting. Well, what is intolerance to anesthesia? But the world communist conspiracy is a thing!
:)

By the way: check in what year Kirov became a member of the "troika" in the Leningrad Region. Coincidence? And if not?

[Oldwiser]

Kamo moved his emka on his bicycle - well, it’s for sure that Comrade Stalin cleaned up witnesses to his pre-revolutionary activity!

[kalibr]

They killed an official in the form of a colonel, ate in the garden under a banana! And every Friday, only the sun will set, they chew someone under a banana! - then the song was ... harmless.

[GEV67]

Winners write the story, axiom! So it was and will be, alas. But she really is like a blue bird ....

[Nikolay K]

I understand that the current winner is Alexander Samsonov?

[South Ural]

In general, many archival documents are still closed. But a number of historians were admitted to them, for example, Yu.N. Zhukov. Read his book "Another Stalin" there and links to archival documents and clarifications of the author. Well, this is addressed to those who are really ready to study, and not let out emotions and drool.

[Cartalon]

A school essay and not an article, Stalin, Stalin did not beat Kirov, he loved Kirov, all the arguments.

[Good cat]

I don’t understand how Khrushchev launched oil and gas production in 1980?

[hardrock]

Quote: Good cat

I don’t understand how Khrushchev launched oil and gas production in 1980?

In 1961. The Program was adopted, according to which in the USSR in 1980. oil production will be increased by 4,7-4,8 times, and gas production by approximately 15 (!!!) times.

[Captain45]

Quote: hardroc

In 1961. The Program was adopted, according to which in the USSR in 1980. oil production will be increased by 4,7-4,8 times, and gas production by approximately 15 (!!!) times.

In 1982, the Food Program of the USSR was adopted (with a capital letter). They inspected her dear in all classes in economics. So according to this program, by 2000, I had to eat caviar with big spoons and eat pineapples, and according to another program in 2000 I was supposed to get a personal apartment, and according to Nikita the maize in 1980 communism should be built. But the result is not visible from all these adopted and committed programs. But Comrade Stalin I.V. in 1930 he said that “we lagged behind the advanced countries by 30-40 years and we need to run this gap in ten years” and ran, otherwise in 1945 we would not have won the war against these advanced countries. Here is the difference between the proclamation of the program and its real implementation.

[hardrock]

Quote: Captain45

In 1982, the USSR Food (namely with a capital letter) program was adopted

And this is what?

Quote: Captain45

and according to Nikita the corn in 1980, communism should be built

Yes exactly. After the development of Siberia's hydrocarbon reserves, he believed that communism would come to the country. He could not have known in advance that "dear Leonid Ilyich" would take half of the world as his freeloader friends. And the fact that the military "worries about defense" will ruin and, ultimately, destroy the country. Therefore, according to the estimates of his economists, the population of the USSR by itself would not be able to gobble up and carry everything that would have been enough dough. And in several apartments it would not be able to move in at once. And Khrushchev planned to reduce the army to a minimum. Here is the nuclear shield, and the required minimum, leave. And cut the rest. But it turned out differently. The military categorically did not want to cut.

Quote: Captain45

But Comrade Stalin I.V. in 1930 he said that "we are 30-40 years behind the advanced countries and we need to run this gap in ten years" and ran

And you can run in circles. There is also a motion effect. In 1940 The USSR was no longer 30-40 years behind, but 40-50 years behind. Do not believe the Bolsheviks, they are deceiving you. Traditionally.

Quote: Captain45

otherwise, in 1945, they would not have won the war against these advanced countries

1. The USSR did not win the war. He was among the winners, but he was not among the winners. It cannot be called win anything that cost 27 million lives. Any. Nothing can be so expensive.
2. Which countries were advanced? Germany, Italy and Japan? In what place were they advanced in the 40s? Even funny, by golly. The middle arms of the country, completely shut up by the Anglo-Saxons and ultimately rebelling against them.

Quote: Captain45

Here is the difference between the proclamation of the program and the actual implementation.

Yes, the difference is huge. Khrushchev’s oil and gas you eat today 3 times a day. And the fact that Djugashvili has heaped up is not a reason for pride.

[Alex]

Quote: hardroc

In 1961. The program was adopted

Yeah, that means, just as in the 50s, hundreds of atomic bombs were released, so the Stalin years of development of atomic technology do not count. But the increase in oil and gas production in the 80s is, of course, a wise and sagacious policy of Khrushchev from the 60s. Famously twisted, abruptly "Faust" by Goethe.

[hardrock]

Quote: Alex

Yeah, it’s like in the 50s, hundreds of atomic bombs are fired

Don't juggle. Under Dzhugashvili, more than 2-3 dozen were never released a year. By the beginning of 1953. in the USSR there were 78 atomic bombs of different power. At the same time, the USA had 1169 warheads only of the "kiloton class", which was considered insufficient to obtain a decisive advantage in a war.

Quote: Alex

So the Stalinist years of the development of atomic technology do not count.

Do you want to consider this an achievement? Count it. But what about the delivery means? Without means of delivery of nuclear weapons, this is just a hassle. And the USSR received delivery vehicles only since 1963, with the Yangelevskaya rocket being placed on the DB. Dzhugashvili certainly had nothing to do with rockets. He ordered to make a bomber, which had no chance of reaching the United States. A very "perspicacious leader", you will not say anything.

Quote: Alex

But the increase in oil and gas production in the 80s is, of course, Khrushchev’s wise and perspicacious policy from the 60s.

Exactly. You still feed on it, I hope 3 times a day, through Gazprom and Rosneft.

[Heimdall47]

On Stalin there is one more spot, one less - no difference. As the proverb says, "You can't wash a black dog white." So it doesn't really matter if he killed not killed. Then he did not kill, he would have killed later.

[Captain45]

Golden-horned (this is one of the names of the god Heimdal, not an insult), following your iron logic

Quote: Heimdall47

So it doesn’t really matter killed did not kill. Then I didn’t kill, later I would kill.

it’s not very important that now your pants are clean, now you haven’t gotten dirty, so you’ll still have time to shit in your pants. And what should you call?

[Heimdall47]

Now your pants are clean, now they are not dirty, so you still have time to shit in your pants.

The fact is that my pants were clean earlier and most likely will be so in the future. And Joseph Vissarionovich lived in shit by the very dark and died in a pool of urine. So you wash off a speck of it - will it be much cleaner?

[Alex]

Quote: Heimdall47

So it doesn’t really matter killed did not kill. Then I didn’t kill, later I would kill.

That is, if a woman did not become a nun, then she will certainly go to the panel. Killer logic.

[Heimdall47]

Do you doubt that Joseph Vissarionovich would have banged Sergei Mironovich? In vain. He was Russian, he was preparing him as a successor ... So Voznesensky was Russian and they say he was methyl.
Comrade Stalin leaked it easily, like thousands of others. And Sergei Mironovich would also become a Trotskyist and Bukharin in his time if he lived longer.
And the Stalinist policies would now also speak enthusiastically about the wisdom of the Leader and the criminal nature of Kirov.
Although the essence of both is the same.

[Kenneth]

Ditty was
-Oh cucumbers, tomatoes
-Stalin Kirova, killed in the corridor.
Although I prefer the version that the bastard Kirov was killed by a cuckold husband.

And about the repressions after his death, so weren't they?

[Bosk]

Sometimes one gets the feeling that in Stalin's time, it was basically impossible to die from an illness from "everyday life" or from some "medical error" or from an accident ...

[gregor6549]

Kirov was very popular in the party organization of Leningrad (the largest after Moscow) and had his own opinion (often different from the opinion of Stalin on many fundamental issues of domestic and foreign policy.
Stalin, at that time, carefully cleansed the country of all who could interfere with his plan for the victory of socialism throughout the world. And the death of Kirov facilitated this cleaning for him, since thousands of oppositionists went under the ax and went under the storm of approval from the people. By the way, the killer of Kirov Nikolaev was so diligently taken to one of the interrogations that the truck carrying him crashed to smithereens with Nikolaev and his guards. (More on this in the Verbatim Report of the 22 Congress of the CPSU.). Well, after the Leningrad party organization, the head of the People’s Commissariat of Defense also fell under purge, who had no place in a future war. (Tukhachevsky, Putna, Frinovsky and so on).
As a result, by June 41 of the year, Stalin had a well-trained and completely ready for war state and army, which would undoubtedly ensure the liberation of Europe from Hitler and from other different Swedes. But, fortune wanted to turn to Stalin with no face and everything went wrong as intended. But this is another song and not here to sing it

[sa-ag]

Quote: gregor6549

As a result, by June 41, Stalin had a well-trained state and army ready for war.

If so, why did they retreat to Moscow?

[Cap.Morgan]

Quote: sa-ag

Quote: gregor6549

As a result, by June 41, Stalin had a well-trained state and army ready for war.

If so, why did they retreat to Moscow?

Because the education of the red commanders was within the 2-4 classes, plus some short-term courses. Comrades are not used to working with their heads.

[Alexey T. (Oper)]

Quote: Cap.Morgan

Because the education of the red commanders was within the 2-4 classes, plus some short-term courses. Comrades are not used to working with their heads.

Well, your golden-chasing pets got their faces so clean that they scattered all over the world with a squeal. And they sat there like mice under a broom, until their possessed demon called for their banners.

[Kenneth]

In the Red Army there were more gold miners than the whites. That is, they were cleaning their faces to each other.

[gregor6549]

They retreated to Moscow because the Germans managed to deliver a preemptive strike, destroy and capture in the first hours and days most of the weapons, military equipment, ammunition, and fuel of the First Strategic Echelon of the Red Army. And what survived was thrown into completely unprepared counter-offensives and perished in these counterattacks. In addition, already in the early days, due to the defeat of the aviation of the border districts as well as aviation that was relocated from the depths of the country to border airfields, the Germans managed to achieve complete air superiority, which in turn led to unjustified losses of those remnants of aviation and ground troops that survived as a result of the first raids. And this, among other things, the loss of communications, the lack of intelligence, the impossibility of effectively covering ground forces, etc. Let us also take into account that before the war, mass training of pilots was carried out according to accelerated programs. Such pilots were issued in the rank of sergeant, they could lift the plane into the air, bring it to the target in a group, drop bombs and, if lucky, return to their airfields. But they did not learn and did not know how to conduct air battles with an experienced enemy. And the planes of the clear sky SU 2 "Ivanov" were conceived as a mass aircraft of the Red Army. an aircraft designed for combat use in the conquest of complete superiority of Soviet aviation in the sky as a result of a planned surprise attack on German airfields. Those. the entire strategy of the RKKZ was sharpened to deliver a preemptive strike against the enemy and to realize the advantages that such a strike gives to the attacking side. In addition, none of the leaders of the country and the army was ready for the Germans to deliver such a preemptive blow.

[hardrock]

Quote: gregor6549

Germans managed to deliver a preemptive strike

Oh. Really. The Germans began to fight, but did not surrender en masse. This was unexpected.

Quote: gregor6549

destroy and capture in the first hours and days most of the weapons, military equipment, ammunition, fuel of the First Strategic Echelon of the Red Army

Do not exaggerate. This has never happened. Although the German trophies in 1941 and 1942 were very rich. They fought with them almost until the end of the war. Were it not for this, the war would end in 1942. It was enough just to stabilize the front in the area of ​​the new / old border. The Germans had absolutely no resources for a protracted war, they did not prepare for it.

Quote: gregor6549

And what survived was thrown into completely unprepared counterattacks and perished in these counterattacks.

Was it "thrown" by itself? Like a suicide off the roof?

Quote: gregor6549

due to the defeat of the aviation of the border districts and also the aircraft that was relocated from the depths of the country to the border airfields, the Germans managed to achieve complete superiority in the air

Do not fantasize, but look at the numbers. There was no "defeat of aviation on the ground". He was, but in the air.

Quote: gregor6549

Such pilots were issued in a sergeant rank, could raise an airplane into the air, bring it in a group to the target, drop bombs and, if lucky, return to their airfields. But they did not learn and did not know how to conduct air battles with an experienced enemy

Did they "release" themselves? A sergeant?

Quote: gregor6549

Those. the entire RKKZ strategy was sharpened by delivering a preemptive strike against the enemy and realizing the advantages that such a strike gives to the advancing side.

Exactly. Take an interest in the pre-war plans of the USSR. And hidden mobilization in peacetime looks very suspicious. Most likely just "grandpa beat grandmother."

Quote: gregor6549

Moreover, the Germans themselves would deliver such a preemptive strike none of the leaders of the country and the army was ready.

Why is it so? Was it a branch of a special school for children with developmental disabilities? Who prevented them from "being ready"?

[Alexey T. (Oper)]

Have you tried to read Rezun-Suvorov less? Well, in order not to write outright nonsense about the fact that "the entire strategy of the Red Army was sharpened to deliver a preemptive strike against the enemy and the realization of the advantages that such a strike gives the advancing side."

[Pissarro]

victim of Rezun's scribbles

[hardrock]

Quote: Pissarro

victim of Rezun's scribbles

I see the signature. Where is the text itself?
PS. I am embarrassed to ask, what did Rezun do with you with his pussy, that you became his victim? Does he have a lot of them?

[Kenneth]

Well-trained, this means completely afraid of initiative, thinking only of subordination to the senior commanders. Until they were knocked out, and with them, millions of soldiers, the army learned to win.

[gregor6549]

Do you know who is worse than a fool? with the initiative. The army (if it is an army and not a mess) provides for initiative only within the framework of the task set by the commander. Any other initiative is considered as a violation of the order of the commander and is punished in the manner prescribed by the Charter, up to the execution.

[MrK]

Quote: gregor6549

By the way, the killer of Kirov Nikolaev was so diligently taken to one of the interrogations that the truck carrying him crashed to smithereens with Nikolaev and his guards. (For more on this, see the Shorthand Report of the 22 Congress of the CPSU.)

I knew that he would be referenced by ... Khrushchev’s victim.
But from the same book. After Kirov’s assassination, Stalin rushed to Leningrad by courier train.
Having stepped onto the platform, without saying a bad word, the head of the regional department of the NKVD, Medved, drove in the physiognomy and headed the investigation himself. Naturally, the first thing he ordered was to bring Borisov to him. Borisov was taken in a truck by the driver Kuzin and two operatives, Vinogradov and Maliy. They brought a corpse. As they justified, the car suddenly skidded sharply, and at a "terrible" (approximately 50 km / h) speed crashed into the wall of the house. No one was hurt, but Borisov hit his head against the wall and ... died.
At first, everyone involved in this dark affair somehow managed to get out.
Later, when Yagoda was arrested, the NKVD was cleaned from his people and the investigation was resumed, the results were much more interesting. The driver Kuzin testified that the operative Maly, who was sitting next to him in the cab, suddenly grabbed the steering wheel from him and spun sharply, directing the car to the wall. And then, when Kuzin got out of the cockpit, he found in the back of a dead Borisov and a runaway second operative, Vinogradov, who was running away.
Both operas were shot. Cousin was given a term. He served his time and was released. Quite naturally, in the style of Khrushchev’s time, it was ordered to consider that the testimony was false, torn from torture. However, here is what Kuzin wrote to the Party Control Commission in the fifty-sixth year: “Crossing Potemkin Street, Maliy pulls the steering wheel from me and directs the car to the wall of the house, while he tries to jump out of the cab. I detain him and do not let him pop out.
The car with the open right door hit the wall of the house, as a result the glass of the door was broken. When I stopped the car and got out, looked into the back of the truck, Vinogradov was not in the back of the truck, and he was running, I jumped into the back of the truck and saw that in the back was a dead Borisov, his right temple in blood. I screamed - they killed, they killed. At this time, Maly came up to me and said - do not shout, otherwise it will be for you, and Maly himself disappeared. After that, I did not see Malia and Vinogradov until I was released from custody. ».

[hardrock]

Quote: mrark

in the physiognomy drove the head of the regional department of the NKVD Medved

Probably Dzhugashvili was arrested and convicted of hooliganism? Or was it officially permitted in the USSR to beat the NKVDeshnikov? Even this medieval game (the master punishes its lackeys) did not surprise you at all.

[Warrior2015]

Quote: Captain45

"we lagged behind the advanced countries for 30-40 years and we need to run this gap in ten years" and ran, otherwise in 1945 we would not have won the war against these advanced countries

As already noted by one comrade, a certain lag in the heavy military industry was made up. Those. piled large masses of medium quality technology. Everything.
The national economy, not to mention the welfare of ordinary people, is in an extremely deplorable situation. The training of officer personnel is generally a matter of seams. And let’s keep silent about the price of Victory. So about readiness - this is the case ...

Quote: gregor6549

As a result, by June 41 of the year, Stalin had a well-trained and completely ready for war state and army, which would undoubtedly ensure the liberation of Europe from Hitler and from other different Swedes.

Well, yes, about the Swedes - this is for me. Maybe you also consider the army of Peter I, after carrying out excellent and advanced reforms, completely ready for war, eh? And about how, for 9 years, Peter's "new model" was broken in by the average European army. Not the worst, of course, but average.

Well, about the army of the USSR in June 1941 of the year - let's not talk at all, for it is complete .. complete. Also, incidentally, is Stalin's merit?

[Kenneth]

In the Northern War. Already in 1703 the Russians recaptured Ingermanland, in 1704 they took Narva and Dept, with Libya. 1706 - victory at Kalisz, 1708 - victory at Lesnaya and finally 1709 - Poltava. Although there were certainly defeats. Then the Swedes were driven as lousy in a bathhouse. And it was not average, but one of the best European armies, which was proved even under Gustaf-Adolf.

[Warrior2015]

Quote: Kenneth

Already in the 1703 year, the Russians recaptured Ingermanland, in the 1704 go they took Narva and Dept, with Libya

having lost Lithuania and Poland? Exchange is not equal! I’ll tell you a little secret of the Opener - except Lesnaya and up to Poltava, there were devastating defeats annually. Peter merged several campaigns that we don’t talk trivially about.

And the best fought in the fields of Flanders, if that. Duke of Marlborough and Eugene of Savoy names say something? These are precisely the people that Charles XII only listened to.

[Kenneth]

And that Poland may have already been part of Russia. You read books. By the way, about the defeat, I also wrote. There were defeats, but your initial thesis is still false.

[Alexey T. (Oper)]

Quote: Warrior2015

The national economy, not to mention the welfare of ordinary people, is in an extremely deplorable situation. The training of officer personnel is generally a matter of seams.

The effectiveness of the Soviet economy and military school, military and political leadership of the USSR was proved by the flag over the Reichstag.

[Kenneth]

The effectiveness of leadership can be characterized by the ratio of human and material losses. And victory is the effectiveness of the people.

[Alexey T. (Oper)]

Quote: Kenneth

The effectiveness of leadership can be characterized by the ratio of human and material losses.

The combat losses of the Red Army as a result were approximately equal to the losses of the enemy. The losses of the civilian population are a consequence of the genocide, and not the low efficiency of the country's leadership.

Quote: Kenneth

And victory is the effectiveness of the people.

A people without leaders will not even be able to organize a banal booze on their own. There should always be someone who will take on organizational issues and guide the preparation process.

[Kenneth]

You can trust Krivosheev as much as you like about our losses, but then let's trust German researchers about German. And with the loss of technology it’s even easier - take what you have done and see how much is left. Similarly for the Germans. And the evening will not be so languid.
And our leadership can be added to the advantage of only perseverance in achieving results despite the victims, which of course paid off but somehow offended. By the way, civilian casualties would have been much less if the Germans had not reached the Volga.

[Alexey T. (Oper)]

Quote: Kenneth

You can trust Krivosheev as much as you like about our losses, but then let's trust German researchers about German.

Unlike the Germans, Krivosheev and his team operate with real documents that you can verify yourself if you wish.
Whereas the Germans had such a mess in the calculations of losses that it is still not possible to determine their real level.

It is enough to mention such a moment that the loss of the Wehrmacht did not include the loss of paramilitary organizations like the Todt organization, while the use of the employees of these organizations at the front as ersatz infantry was quite an ordinary occurrence.

[Warrior2015]

Quote: Alexey T. (Opera)

The combat losses of the Red Army as a result were approximately equal to the losses of the enemy. The losses of the civilian population are a consequence of the genocide, and not the low efficiency of the country's leadership.

Everything is muddy there, with these losses. Open statistics have repeatedly sat in a puddle. And it’s inappropriately to blame everything on actions against the civilian population, because it is impossible to calculate its losses precisely at all, and still we can’t figure it out with the military, from whom it was counted.

[hardrock]

Quote: Warrior2015

Quote: Alexey T. (Opera)
The combat losses of the Red Army as a result were approximately equal to the losses of the enemy.

You ask this fruit, where does it get its "data" from? I can't, I don't have enough nerves for such.
According to official figures from the Russian Ministry of Defense, irretrievable losses during the hostilities on the Soviet-German front from 22 June 1941 to May 9 May 1945 amounted to 8 860 400 Soviet troops. And these are only military personnel. If you add the NKVDeshnikov (incl. Border guards), militias and partisans, you get about 11 million people. http://www.rbc.ru/society/04/05/2007/100470.shtml
At the same time, Germany's losses on the Eastern Front amounted to about 4 million soldiers, including those who died in captivity in the post-war period. Where did this fruit come from to say that "the combat losses of the Red Army in the end were approximately equal to those of the enemy"? Which he tirelessly tries for some week in a row on different branches of the forum. No, I remember, in Soviet times I was also taught this way in school. And they even added that actually more Germans died. But the days of soviet lies have already passed. But not for everyone.
At the same time, take an interest in his pearl "in 1941 the Germans lost half of the invading army on the Eastern Front." Germans on the Eastern Front in 1941 lost 302 thousand people. At the same time, the invasion army clearly did not consist of 600 thousand people, even schoolchildren know this. Once again, the tutor of "socialism" is caught in a lie and distorting facts. Nothing, he's not the first time.

[MrK]

Quote: hardroc

According to official figures from the Russian Ministry of Defense, irretrievable losses during the hostilities on the Soviet-German front from 22 June 1941 to May 9 May 1945 amounted to 8 860 400 Soviet troops. And these are only military personnel. If you add the NKVDeshnikov (incl. Border guards), militias and partisans, you get about 11 million people.

It is necessary to add not the NKVD officers, but the dead of our soldiers in captivity.
Now it is believed that Russian (in the broad sense, that is, Soviet) killed 26,6 million, Germans - 12,8 million, Poles - 6 million, Americans - 418 thousand (again on all TVDs).
A study by the American military department, "The Yemen Manpower" - the most solid according to the statistical apparatus - determined the number of dead and missing German soldiers in 6 990 728 people. (This does not include deaths in hospitals from wounds, deaths in captivity).
According to the interdepartmental commission for calculating our losses during the war, the irretrievable combat losses of the enlisted personnel of the Soviet army (total: killed, died from wounds, disappeared, died in captivity) 8 513 629 military personnel, and taking into account the fighting in the Far East - 8 525 670 people. That is, from this monstrous last number 8 525 670 we can immediately take away 3,6 million - our soldiers who died in German captivity. This is confirmed by the last to become General Shamanov. They did not die because they were weak or unlucky. They died simply because they were RUSSIAN, SOVIET. From any other captivity not imprisoned for genocide against “non-people”, they would return. Of the Americans and British captured in Germany, 4% died. Soviet prisoners killed almost 60%.
Have you compared? Thinking about it? But as they said in Russia - "The dead do not have shame."
Losses of troops of the allies of Germany (Hungary, Italy, Romania, Finland and Slovakia) amounted to a total of 1 468 145 people, or 20,4% of the number of irretrievable losses of the Wehrmacht on the Soviet-German front.
The largest part of them falls on the Hungarian and Romanian troops. Thus, the total demographic irrevocable losses of Germany and its allies on the Eastern Front amounted to 8 649,3 thousand people, of which purely German losses of about seven million. And do not lie to different Russophobia.

[Alexey T. (Oper)]

Quote: hardroc

According to official figures from the Russian Ministry of Defense, irretrievable losses during the hostilities on the Soviet-German front from 22 June 1941 to May 9 May 1945 amounted to 8 860 400 Soviet troops. And these are only military personnel. If you add the NKVDeshnikov (incl. Border guards), militias and partisans, you get about 11 million people. http://www.rbc.ru/society/04/05/2007/100470.shtml

I explain specifically for a strange subject (since the rules of the forum do not allow to name it differently): 90% of the militia losses were taken into account in the losses of the personnel linear infantry divisions of the Red Army. Since in almost all cases without exception, DONs entered the fray already being reorganized into the personnel of rifle divisions. The only exception is the DON of the Leningrad militia of the first formation (if I am not mistaken, all two DON entered the battle precisely as divisions of the people's militia).

It goes without saying that there were all kinds of separate militia battalions, the so-called fighter squads, etc., but they didn’t give a total loss, which, together with the losses of frontier guards and partisans, could give 2,5 one million combat losses of the Red Army.

[Alexey T. (Oper)]

Quote: hardroc

At the same time, Germany’s losses on the Eastern Front amounted to about 4 million troops, including those who died in captivity in the postwar period.

Those. according to the narrow-minded Germans were so cowardly individuals that they mobilized 22 million people into the army and lost only 4 million of them, i.e. less 1 / 5 did they prefer to capitulate?

[kalibr]

And their inefficiency is proved by the flag of General Vlasov, which today blows on the Kremlin!

[Alexey T. (Oper)]

First, the demon was never the banner of the ROA.
Secondly, the Soviet leadership during the Second World War, and the conversation was about him, it has nothing to do.

[Alexey T. (Oper)]

Quote: Warrior2015

Well, about the army of the USSR in June 1941 of the year - let's not talk at all, for it is complete .. complete.

In comparison with whom she erred ...? With the Poles? French? The Dutch? The Greeks? Or maybe the British or Ami?

Despite all the failures, the Red Army already managed to inflict such losses on the Germans by July that von Leeb wrote in his diaries that he had 40-50 people left in his mouth. Those. within a month we managed to disable at least half of the Wehrmacht soldiers who crossed the border in the morning of June 22.

[Kenneth]

And then Berlin was not taken to 42.
The most reliable source of German losses, Halder, use it, and not delusional calculations with multiplying Halder's numbers by 10.

[Alexey T. (Oper)]

Quote: Kenneth

The most reliable source of German losses Halder

Why is there such an ambitious conclusion?
Halder already in July wrote that the Germans won the war against the USSR, and frowned very cool. Why should he be trusted with regard to the level of losses?

[Warrior2015]

Quote: Alexey T. (Opera)

In comparison with whom she erred ...? With the Poles? French? The Dutch? The Greeks? Or maybe the British or Ami?

If the Greeks had 30000 tanks and 20000 aircraft, then it would be possible to compare. And so - the entire pre-war army of the USSR was either captured, or was destroyed already in the fall of 1941. This is about effective and competent leadership.

[Alexey T. (Oper)]

Quote: Warrior2015

the entire pre-war army of the USSR was either captured, or was destroyed already in the autumn of 1941.

Well, this is only in the inflamed imagination of Russophobia. But in reality, the losses were certainly heavy, but not so much, and even in the defensive battle near Moscow, most divisions were precisely of the pre-war formation. There is no doubt that they were replenished with personnel, but nevertheless, not so much was sent to reorganization as modern grief-storytellers write about it.

[PHANTOM-AS]

Quote: Warrior2015

If the Greeks had 30000 tanks and 20000 aircraft, then it would be possible to compare. And so - the entire pre-war army of the USSR was either captured, or was destroyed already in the fall of 1941. This is about effective and competent leadership.

Now I know for sure that people like you were born in an unnatural way

[ABAZA]

Question: Is Stalin involved in the deaths of MILLIONS of Russians as a result of the revolutionary terror of 1901-1917, the civil war, collectivization and as a consequence of the mass famine of the early 1930s, mass repressions, the mediocre Finnish campaign, the war, the famine of 1947 ?!?!?!

[ABAZA]

Kirov has been eliminated. But Stalin is a great intriguer, he used this death to repress the people. The question is: is it your people ?! Or "brushwood for the world revolution", which remained "brushwood" in his understanding?

[Ivan Tartugai]

There are a lot of such myths.
And most importantly, there are a lot of people who perceive these myths as reality.
Many still believe that Boris Godunov killed Tsarevich Dmitry.
Many still believe that Salieri poisoned Mozart.
Many still believe that Ivan the Terrible killed his son, Tsarevich Ivan.
Goebbels is right that if a lie is repeated a hundred times, then it becomes trueand if you repeat it a thousand times, and besides, with different people, and through different media, that is, convey it to the layman through newspapers, radio, television, in verse, in prose, in false memories (memoirs), in a movie, in a theater , in sculpture, in paintings, for example, like Repin IE, then in this case a thousand times repeated lie is already becoming an axiom. But the axiom does not need proof, it is already perceived by the main part of the population only as truth.

[Warrior2015]

I suppose that the supporters of the "effective and competent" party leadership bypass when under the pressure of the facts they cannot say anything?

Quote: Ivan Tartugay

Many still believe that Boris Godunov killed Tsarevich Dmitry.

And here everything is incomprehensible. You see, the data of an exclusively official investigation, which simply could not come to any other conclusion, reached us.

Quote: Ivan Tartugay

Many still believe that Ivan the Terrible killed his son, Tsarevich Ivan.

And here everything is not clear. Just think - really during the reign of Ivan the Terrible, the court historiographer could write: "Today our Great Tsar John Vasilyevich slaughtered like a pig his son and heir for no reason ..." With these words, he would not only have signed a verdict for himself, but it would have been mercilessly erased from the annals. Therefore, the official version in Russian sources "died of illness."

And of course, Stalin was in no way involved in Kirov's murder! And then I will say in the North Korean style: "And citizen Kirov, this incompetent and ineffective party member, who did not fully appreciate the great leading role of the greatest leader of all times and peoples, Comrade Stalin, realizing his insignificance, shot himself!"

[hardrock]

Quote: Warrior2015

I suppose that the supporters of the "effective and competent" party leadership bypass when under the pressure of the facts they cannot say anything?

What can they say? Real, not invented, achievements are about zero. Victims among the population are truly colossal. What could be the arguments with so many victims? That minus in powerless malice. And let them take a minute, this is not the worst that can be.

[Pissarro]

the absence of Soviet achievements and the okhulions of those personally shot by Stalin are present only in the inflamed imagination of ardent Russophobes and other enemies of the people, who made up 99 percent of the repressed during the Stalin era.
Unfortunately, the punitive apparatus of Comrade Stalin did not work well, the entire Bandera-Trotsky bastard climbed out now from all the cracks

[hardrock]

Quote: Pissarro

Unfortunately, the punitive apparatus of Comrade Stalin did not work well, the entire Bandera-Trotsky bastard climbed out now from all the cracks

Another executioner, suffering from the theme "we didn't shoot you enough."
No, only forced and tough desovetization will save Russia. Otherwise, there will be no future.

Quote: Pissarro

are present only in the inflamed imagination of ardent Russophobes and other enemies of the people, who made up 99 percent of the repressed during the Stalin era.

Those confuse Russians with scoops. Just at the time of Dzhugashvili, Russians were repressed. So the Stalinists, they were the main Russophobia.

[PHANTOM-AS]

Quote: hardroc

No, only forced and tough desovetization will save Russia

Go Troll

[hardrock]

Quote: PHANTOM-AS

Go Troll

Do you want desovetization? Then you have to learn some foreign language. Perfectly. There is a desire? I do not have.

[hardrock]

Quote: Pissarro

Yes, one corporal came with forced and brutal desovetization,

You are also uneducated. You don’t know that the corporal did not bother with any de-Sovietization. He was not even going to pick your pockmarked idol from his chair. Planned to move him beyond the Volga and North. Dvin so that he and his gang there "build socialism."

Quote: Pissarro

anti-adviser is always Russophobe (s)

Are you already in the Emirates completely overheated in the sun? Bo-bo head? Again trying to pass off the Soviet for Russian, as I look.

[Cat man null]

Quote: hardroc

Just planned to relocate for the Volga and the North. Dvinu.

Oh! Something so familiar .. there was a character from six months ago, he also said something like that.

Only now I could not confirm anything. Maybe you can do it?

Quote: turk September 16, 2015 23:42 p.m.

Although they (Germans) are actually his (socialism) along with Comrade Stalin and his gang planned only to push out of the line AA (Arkhangelsk-Astrakhan along the Northern Dvina and the Volga)

The character is banned, comments are deleted, but traces remain

And?

[hardrock]

Quote: Cat Man Null

Only now I could not confirm anything. Maybe you can do it?

Why do I need it? Although Barbaross’s plan is not a military secret. Everything is clear there, even maps on the internet are available.

[Cat man null]

Quote: hardroc

Quote: Cat Man Null

Only now I could not confirm anything. Maybe you can do it?

Although Barbaross’s plan is not a military secret. Everything is clear there, even maps on the internet are available

Good map, and visual.

Tell me, but the little arrows, blue, with airplanes on them - why are they following this line of yours? This is probably in order to build socialism calmer there?

Quote: hardroc

Why do I need it?

Well, how .. it’s customary to answer for the words, actually

I wish I had turk-a comments selectively copied .. for memory, he had there something like this:

- even before the war, Stalin was offered "peace" with the conditions of "resettlement" for the aforementioned line
- Stalin, it seems, was inclined to this .. but the evil impudent people somehow turned everything out and had to fight ..

You don’t have, by the way, similar tales ... where is the thread behind your bosom? I would listen with pleasure

[hardrock]

Quote: Cat Man Null

Well, how .. it’s customary to answer for the words, actually

So I brought you a map. And the rest of the questions, Non-existent (or Inexpressive?) Katzman (striking nicknames are found on the internet), this is not for me.
Although, as far as the blue arrows are concerned, as far as I know, it was planned to destroy industry in the Urals with bombing. It is quite clearly visible where exactly these arrows abut.
And after that, having secured his rear, Hitler planned to come to grips with Britain. On a swoop, in the fall of 1940, he did not succeed, in the air "battle for Britain" the Germans were hit in the head. The result was 22.06.41/XNUMX/XNUMX.

[Cat man null]

Quote: hardroc

So I brought you a map. And the rest of the questions, Non-existent (or Inexpressive?) Katzman (striking nicknames are found on the internet), this is not for me.
Although, as far as the blue arrows are concerned, as far as I know, it was planned to destroy industry in the Urals with bombing. It is quite clearly visible where exactly these arrows abut.
And after that, having secured his rear, Hitler planned to closely tackle Britain.

- Your point is clear, thanks
- for Katsman - thanks too (Strugatskys, "The Doomed City" .. it would be necessary to reread ..). And now you will be with me Hardcoredon't blame me
- about nick - there is an illustration there, try to group the words differently .. if not laziness, of course

(softly, in a whisper): but turk - he was nevertheless funnier .. and stacked cool stories .. there was no such person, eh ..

[Alexey T. (Oper)]

Quote: Cat Man Null

but traces remained

No traces, last ...

[PHANTOM-AS]

Quote: hardroc

There is a desire? I do not have.

Your best bet is to try a goose’s head

[Pissarro]

Yes, there was already one corporal with forced and brutal desovetization, even if it went wrong

anti-adviser is always Russophobe (s)

[PHANTOM-AS]

Quote: Pissarro

anti-adviser is always Russophobe (s)

Quote: Cat Man Null

Only now I could not confirm anything. Maybe you can do it?

Guys, put it on skulls, otherwise
this, "mask barking", apparently, ES learned to use

[hardrock]

Quote: PHANTOM-AS

Guys, put it on skulls

You are not a good person, Phantom Ass (he called himself so, no one pulled you by the tongue). They gave you a mouse in your hand. And I imagine what you would do if you were given a gun. And after all, there was such a period in history, they only gave Nagans to whom. That's when it was a nightmare.

[MrK]

Quote: hardroc

Victims among the population are truly colossal. What could be the arguments with so many victims?

And Russophobe will never understand that the victims of our civilian population are explained by the cruelty of the Nazis.
Indeed, for Russophobia Hitler was always white and fluffy. Indeed, for them, Hitler is also a victim of Stalinism. Interestingly, this is Russophobe from. Most likely an unfinished Bandera
From the same book. In the USSR, about 15 million PEACEFAN dwellers died in the war. By 12 000 children, women and the elderly daily, on each of the 1418 days of war. But there are other, no less mournful figures from the total amount of 18 million dead. Of the 5,6 million people stolen to Germany, 3,17 million died. The main causes of high mortality among the “Ostarbeiters” and prisoners of concentration camps were hard labor, poor nutrition and ill-treatment of the hosts and the camp administration.
In the occupied territories of the USSR, the Nazis and their hangers-on exterminated more than 8,4 million people of the civilian population, mainly Slavs, another 6,8 million people died from the conditions of occupation, in other words, from starvation provoked by the seizure of products for the needs of the German army.

[hardrock]

Quote: mrark

And she will never understand Russophobe

Russophobia of the Bolsheviks is a fact known from history. And those who support and justify these Russophobes are the same Russophobes as they are.

Quote: mrark

that the victims of our civilian population are due to the cruelty of the Nazis.

And what explains the fact that the Germans were able to show cruelty to the civilian population? Who allowed them to him? Who left this population alone for 3 years with the Germans?
And what explains the colossal military losses? What did the Germans shoot?
Everything, as always with the Bolsheviks. Everyone is to blame for everything, but they are just what, never and never.
I am not yet raising the question of how the pockmarked katso forgave all the "new friends" almost all the reparations. And thus he placed all the burdens of economic recovery on the shoulders of the unfortunate population. So whoever was a Russophobe is a Russophobe.

Quote: mrark

Interestingly, this is Russophobe from.

You are also illiterate. You don’t know who is Russophile and who is Russophobe. Here you are just Russophobe. Because for you, Stalinism is supposedly not a crime against the Russian people. And not only Russian. Against the entire population of the USSR.

[Pissarro]

Our friend, under the British flag, has erased all his posts. Now the discussion looks as if you are talking to yourself

[Cat man null]

Quote: Pissarro

Our friend under the British flag has erased all his posts

Try to open his profile. If the site says "You cannot view the profile, because the user has blacklisted you" - believe it, it is

Personally, I see his comments .. for now, anyway

[Pissarro]

Thanks, I already understood.
If I click on the last comments in my account, then I also see his posts, despite the emergency
Sucks he hid

[Cat man null]

Quote: Pissarro

If I click on the last comments in my account, then I also see his posts, despite the emergency
Sucks he hid

It's not his fault. This bagoficha such a site is very convenient, by the way.

[Pissarro]

Quote: hardroc You are also uneducated. You do not know that the corporal did not bother with any desovetization. He was not even going to pick your pocked idol from his chair. Just planned to relocate for the Volga and the North. Dvinu.

Yes, Hitler, darling, he wanted to resettle us all for the Volga with the Soviet regime and Stalin. And we, the wild, did not understand the European and led us to suicide. And the participants of such a noble humanitarian mission were hanging

[Pissarro]

Quote: hardroc Why do I need it? Although Barbaross’s plan is not a military secret. Everything is clear there, even maps on the internet are available.

Have you yet finished reading Mine Campf and the Ost Plan? The Internet also has

[Pissarro]

Quote: hardroc You are not a good person, the Phantom of the Ass (called himself so, no one pulled you by the tongue). They gave you a mouse in your hand. And I imagine what you would do if you were given a gun. And after all, there was such a period in history, they gave Nagans to people like you. That's when it was a nightmare.

And people like you, Ostap Bender, offered parabellum

[Leninitsa]

these are all Trotsky and Bronstein, Sverdlovs and Aisenbergs, Kaganovsky and other Zionisk bastards. The color of the Russian and Soviet nations were plagued by these reptiles.

[kuz363]

As always, the women are to blame. Even great people.